Episode 1438 - Amy Sherman-Palladino

Episode 1438 • Released May 25, 2023 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck steens what the fuckawitzes what the fuckbergs what the fuckmans what's happening what is happening this is i guess that's a special opening for the jewish what the fuckers

00:00:26Marc:Is everything all right?

00:00:28Marc:It isn't, right?

00:00:29Marc:It just isn't.

00:00:31Marc:I mean, Tina Turner is dead.

00:00:33Marc:It's just not all right.

00:00:35Marc:Another force of nature is now shuffling hard, sometimes slow and fast.

00:00:43Marc:Off this mortal coil.

00:00:45Marc:What a fucking amazing performer.

00:00:47Marc:What an amazing person.

00:00:50Marc:What an amazing woman.

00:00:51Marc:I think I have more.

00:00:52Marc:Like there are some artists that I have in my collection that I have a lot of records.

00:00:57Marc:A lot.

00:00:59Marc:of their records.

00:01:01Marc:And Ike and Tina are one of those artists.

00:01:06Marc:I have a lot of those records.

00:01:09Marc:And, man, the really early ones... I know she became...

00:01:15Marc:bigger, stronger, and more pronounced and amazing as a solo performer once she detached herself from the monster.

00:01:26Marc:But those very early recordings are quite insanely painful and amazing to listen to.

00:01:31Marc:And I listen to them often.

00:01:33Marc:And I didn't know her, and I haven't really known what she's been up to, but knowing she's gone is just another...

00:01:43Marc:Another monumental fury of charisma and power removed, removed one of the good, the good forces of nature taken away.

00:01:55Marc:Jesus, I'm stumbling through this like like Kendall Roy at the eulogy.

00:02:00Marc:Holy fuck.

00:02:01Marc:I'm just look.

00:02:04Marc:She wasn't young.

00:02:05Marc:And she was ill.

00:02:07Marc:But it's just sad that this generation of people that had such a profound impact on so many, and especially my generation, I am late boomer, tail end.

00:02:18Marc:There's a whole generation of artists and amazing performers that are just slowly being picked off by mortality, being picked off by the unseen hand.

00:02:33Marc:As it happens naturally.

00:02:35Marc:I'm just sad about it.

00:02:37Marc:I get today is.

00:02:38Marc:Yeah, I wake up and I try to deal and I don't know if I'm doing enough.

00:02:42Marc:Is there ever is there is there enough that any of us can do?

00:02:47Marc:My God, there is some shameless, just aggressive Christian fascism going on in this country and out and outright fascism, just banning books, taking over school boards.

00:03:00Marc:I mean, it's just shameless what they're doing to the LGBTQ communities.

00:03:06Marc:Shutting them out, shutting them down, like all of those fucking trans jokes that so many of these hack comics fought so hard to have the right to say, which they do.

00:03:18Marc:Man, you really picked a good bunch of people to hurt, didn't you?

00:03:22Marc:I mean, Jesus Christ, can it get any harder?

00:03:24Marc:There's only one step left for how this culture is dealing with LGBTQ people.

00:03:31Marc:And that's killing them.

00:03:32Marc:Your neighbors might kill you.

00:03:34Marc:That's that's where it's at.

00:03:35Marc:Who are you going to be in that fight?

00:03:37Marc:Who are you going to be when they come for us?

00:03:40Marc:For whoever that is.

00:03:41Marc:Are you going to wear T-shirts that say, hell no, I'm not Jewish.

00:03:46Marc:Hell no, I'm not trans.

00:03:48Marc:Hell no, I'm not gay.

00:03:49Marc:Hell no.

00:03:52Marc:And on the back, it just says they're in the attic.

00:03:55Marc:Come on in.

00:03:58Marc:I mean, how easily do people adapt to some sort of status quo that is heinous, heinous?

00:04:06Marc:How strong are you?

00:04:08Marc:How well do you know your neighbors?

00:04:10Marc:Do you still believe that most people in the quiet of their own minds and hearts and houses are going to do the right thing in the name of tolerance and respect for other people, humanity, progressive humanity?

00:04:26Marc:Or are they just going to buckle?

00:04:28Marc:Are they just going to buckle?

00:04:31Marc:I try.

00:04:32Marc:To sort of believe that what we're doing here by embracing creative people, by embracing people's stories and how they do the work that they do.

00:04:42Marc:And I almost all of it is proactive work that affects other people.

00:04:46Marc:Today I talked to Amy Sherman Palladino.

00:04:52Marc:And she created the Gilmore Girls.

00:04:54Marc:She created the Marvelous Miss Maisel.

00:04:56Marc:She's been a writer.

00:04:57Marc:Her dad was a comic writer.

00:04:59Marc:And on a basic level, The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel is about Jewish entertainment.

00:05:09Marc:It's about what Jewish people at a different point in time

00:05:14Marc:One of the choices they made to get through and connect and integrate into this country.

00:05:20Marc:And so many of those comics are so important to me growing up.

00:05:24Marc:But I mean, there is a flat out, shameless, culturally integrated anti-Semitism.

00:05:33Marc:Anti-LGBTQ, anti-Mexican, anti-black, anti-everything.

00:05:37Marc:And it's integrated.

00:05:38Marc:It's not marginalized.

00:05:39Marc:It's in the culture.

00:05:41Marc:You read about it every fucking day.

00:05:42Marc:It's happening.

00:05:44Marc:And look, man, you know, I believe that having these conversations that I have and I believe that a lot of the art that's coming out and a lot of the stories that are being told and a lot of the movies that are being made are completely progressive, proactive, interesting, bold, courageous.

00:06:01Marc:But I was excited.

00:06:03Marc:to talk to Amy Sherman Palladino because, you know, watching Mrs. Maisel, that era of comedy was very important to me growing up because my grandparents, my grandmother was a huge stand-up comedy fan, loved Don Rickles like Buddy Hacken.

00:06:22Marc:My grandfather loved the slapstick stuff, but they enjoyed the comedy.

00:06:27Marc:I used to talk to my grandmother a lot about it.

00:06:28Marc:Most of those comics when I was younger were the guys I saw on TV, that generation.

00:06:33Marc:Many of them are dead.

00:06:34Marc:Like, you know, you talk about Tina Turner's generation of performers.

00:06:38Marc:The generation before them of comedians really informed my sense of humor.

00:06:44Marc:Don Rickles, Buddy Hackett, Jackie Vernon, Rodney Dangerfield.

00:06:48Marc:You know, they were on TV and I loved watching those guys.

00:06:53Marc:And Mrs. Maisel is of that era.

00:06:57Marc:But it was interesting to have the conversation because the guy she got to play Lenny Bruce in that show is quite good.

00:07:05Marc:And I met the guy and I was quite taken with the guy.

00:07:07Marc:But I think that he's a hard guy to play because what we know about Lenny Bruce and what I know about being around junkies in general or people that are hopped up all the time or high all the time is that, you know, it kind of takes over their body and you feel the vibration, you feel the frequency and

00:07:22Marc:And, you know, once they get lost in it, it's hard to see anything else.

00:07:27Marc:So in that sense, outside of the Lenny Bruce records, which you can just hear the pace and you can hear the sort of like this guy wanted nothing more than to be liked and wanted to get laughs and wanted to charm people like he did all the voices.

00:07:40Marc:He had the shtick down.

00:07:41Marc:He had the rhythm down.

00:07:42Marc:And then he slowly over time, his brain, you know, broke apart and he became a vessel of something bigger than himself and changed everything.

00:07:52Marc:Not only the face of comedy, but the face of culture.

00:07:54Marc:But besides all that, the guy was a guy.

00:07:58Marc:And I was thrilled to talk to Amy about, you know, Kitty Bruce was involved.

00:08:03Marc:A lot of the monologues that they had of his were real.

00:08:07Marc:And and also the character of Mrs. Maisel was right from the get go when I first watched it was sort of confounding to me.

00:08:15Marc:But I knew what was going on.

00:08:16Marc:I knew that this type of comic, especially a female comic at that time during that era, did not exist.

00:08:23Marc:You know, so this was created to give her that voice and to give her that point of view and to give her that freedom of mind was a device, an invention.

00:08:32Marc:And I talked to her about that because I thought it was kind of genius.

00:08:36Marc:So it turns out that, you know, she's been rotating around comedy.

00:08:40Marc:We just missed each other at the comedy store.

00:08:42Marc:It was a good conversation.

00:08:44Marc:And I'm glad I had it.

00:08:45Marc:And I'm glad that, you know, I feel lately sort of a reconnection or an openness or maybe a nostalgia for all this stuff that kind of...

00:08:57Marc:defined me or that I gravitated towards when I was younger.

00:09:01Marc:A lot of old Jews.

00:09:03Marc:And also with music, too, that, you know, lately I've been listening to sort of alongside of all this other stuff that I just mentioned to you.

00:09:11Marc:I've been kind of poking around in the townie rock that was, you know, part of my wiring when I was younger.

00:09:16Marc:And also those eight tracks and stuff.

00:09:19Marc:I don't know if it's nostalgia or regrounding.

00:09:24Marc:I'm also revising my will.

00:09:27Marc:Look, hey, grownups, you know, get a will together.

00:09:32Marc:It's going to happen.

00:09:33Marc:Get a will together.

00:09:34Marc:Get a colonoscopy.

00:09:36Marc:Make sure you get your prostate checked.

00:09:38Marc:Do the tests that will enable you to know

00:09:42Marc:where you're at health-wise after a certain age, and just get some kind of will together so if, God forbid, anything happens, everybody you know or everybody in your family isn't scrambling to keep it out of probate and figure out who gets what and what happens now.

00:09:58Marc:It's a grown-up thing to do.

00:09:59Marc:It doesn't cost that much money.

00:10:01Marc:Colonoscopy will.

00:10:05Marc:Okay?

00:10:05Marc:It's adult shit.

00:10:07Marc:You can do it.

00:10:08Marc:Seriously.

00:10:10Marc:So I talked to Amy Sherman Palladino about the show, The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel.

00:10:17Marc:And that series finale is available tomorrow, May 26th on Prime Video.

00:10:22Marc:This is it.

00:10:23Marc:We talk about why that happened, too.

00:10:25Marc:Okay.

00:10:26Marc:This is me talking to Amy.

00:10:33Marc:What studio?

00:10:34Marc:What studio?

00:10:35Guest:Uh, we're at Steiner.

00:10:37Guest:Oh, Steiner.

00:10:38Marc:Oh, yeah, those are big.

00:10:39Marc:Big sound stages.

00:10:39Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:10:40Guest:It's a nice studio, I will say.

00:10:42Marc:We did the Joker there.

00:10:43Guest:Yes, yes.

00:10:44Guest:When we did the pilot, we were in Tony Town, which is basically like any abandoned warehouse that they had a lock on.

00:10:52Guest:But, like, there was barely a roof and...

00:10:54Marc:Oh, right.

00:10:55Guest:They were just terrible.

00:10:56Marc:Oh, really?

00:10:56Marc:So they hadn't really set it up as a studio yet?

00:10:58Guest:There's a lot of places to film in New York.

00:11:01Guest:There should not be places to film.

00:11:04Marc:Sure.

00:11:04Guest:But Steiner's beautiful.

00:11:05Guest:Yeah.

00:11:06Guest:It's great.

00:11:06Marc:It's a full facility.

00:11:08Marc:How many sound stages have they got over there?

00:11:09Marc:They must have like six or...

00:11:10Guest:And they've just built like two or three other big ones.

00:11:14Guest:Oh, really?

00:11:15Guest:Yeah.

00:11:15Marc:What are the tax incentives in New York?

00:11:18Marc:Are they good?

00:11:18Guest:They're better now.

00:11:20Guest:Oh, yeah?

00:11:20Guest:They just knocked them up to like – I think it's 30 percent, but they also include the –

00:11:26Guest:It's whatever.

00:11:30Guest:It was not as good before, and Kathy Hochul just pushed it.

00:11:34Marc:And now everyone's deciding they could use the money, and they could employ people.

00:11:39Guest:Yeah.

00:11:41Guest:I just know for our show how much money we spread around town, which was a lot.

00:11:46Guest:Yeah.

00:11:46Guest:It was a lot.

00:11:47Marc:Just on food alone.

00:11:48Guest:Yeah, seriously.

00:11:50Guest:Coffee.

00:11:50Guest:Just for coffee.

00:11:52Guest:But there's no filming in California anymore.

00:11:55Guest:California has that weird lottery thing.

00:11:58Marc:I don't understand all that.

00:11:59Marc:All I know is that I'm optioning a book that was written by my friend, and I want to make it a movie, but it has to be done in New York.

00:12:06Marc:So I want good stories about being able to shoot a film in New York.

00:12:10Yeah.

00:12:10Guest:I think shooting New York is the greatest place to film.

00:12:13Marc:Right?

00:12:14Guest:Yeah.

00:12:14Guest:It's amazing.

00:12:15Guest:The crews are so good.

00:12:16Guest:Yeah.

00:12:17Guest:They're fast and they're tough.

00:12:19Guest:They're very tough.

00:12:20Guest:And they know how to maneuver in tiny apartments or into an alleyway or you're stuffed in the back of a diner.

00:12:28Marc:That's because that's all New York is.

00:12:29Guest:Yeah.

00:12:30Guest:And they know how to do that shit.

00:12:31Guest:And New York is endless...

00:12:33Guest:And you would go in these buildings and they've got rooms and there were clubs where rich people did rich things and now they just rent them out.

00:12:41Marc:And you can just doll them up?

00:12:42Marc:Yeah.

00:12:42Marc:Are they already set up or you have to?

00:12:44Guest:Half the time they're just so beautiful you just like, you know.

00:12:46Guest:Really?

00:12:47Marc:Yeah.

00:12:47Marc:But like, so what were the sets?

00:12:48Marc:The apartment?

00:12:49Yeah.

00:12:49Guest:the club the club well the first year was uh first year we did the gaslight and we did her apartment and things like that the last year we we built a strip club we built a giant strip club um which was amazing yeah and uh and then this past season we built uh we did like sort of our version of johnny carson so we built like a whole studio with that right thing so what was shot in in real live buildings and stuff

00:13:16Guest:A lot of stuff.

00:13:17Guest:Just about anything that wasn't permanent that you saw.

00:13:21Marc:What about the Shmata factory?

00:13:24Guest:No, that's an amazing place.

00:13:26Guest:Out in Greenpoint.

00:13:28Guest:And that guy is, his story is incredible.

00:13:32Guest:He was in the Holocaust.

00:13:33Guest:He was in the camps.

00:13:34Guest:And he was a young boy.

00:13:36Guest:And they taught him to sew.

00:13:39Guest:And because he was so good at it, they didn't kill him.

00:13:42Guest:And he would fix the officer's...

00:13:44Guest:And he survived the Holocaust by learning to – So he's got this unbelievable – it looks straight out of the garment district.

00:13:53Guest:And he's very tan with a dapper suit.

00:13:56Guest:He's – I don't know.

00:13:57Guest:He's got to be 100.

00:13:57Guest:He's like 3,000 years old.

00:13:58Guest:I don't know how old to be.

00:13:59Guest:Very little.

00:14:00Guest:But he boasts that every president but Trump he made a suit for.

00:14:06Guest:It's just like – it's a really great – and we would use his workers.

00:14:10Marc:Yeah.

00:14:11Guest:Because they all knew how to work the shit.

00:14:13Guest:We didn't know how to work any of that stuff.

00:14:16Guest:And they were great.

00:14:16Guest:They were like those tough broads.

00:14:19Guest:It was just amazing.

00:14:21Guest:It was so great to go back there.

00:14:22Marc:Well, I was really taken with the show and I was surprised at the beginning that I was because I was ready to kind of like not...

00:14:29Guest:Well, okay.

00:14:30Marc:I was ready to judge it as a comic.

00:14:32Marc:So, you know, I'm coming to it.

00:14:33Guest:Yeah, no, I get that.

00:14:34Guest:I get that.

00:14:34Marc:It was only because of that.

00:14:35Marc:No, I totally get that.

00:14:36Marc:And I was sort of like charmed by it.

00:14:38Marc:But I also realized without knowing anything about it that that type of comedian in a woman or a man was rare.

00:14:47Marc:There were two.

00:14:48Marc:Yeah.

00:14:48Marc:So the idea that I don't think anybody picked up on initially was that you created this character who is a woman who could speak freely, which really wasn't the case because people were comparing her to Joan or to Phyllis Diller, but they didn't do that kind of stuff.

00:15:03Marc:No, no.

00:15:03Marc:It was all, the only guy that was doing that was Lenny Bruce, and the guy that you got to play him was very good, you know, and that's hard.

00:15:09Marc:Yeah, I met him, and I was very complimentary because, you know, I don't, like, I've seen Lenny, and Lenny's like a, you know, he was like, you couldn't hardly, you can't really hide the darkness in the real tapes of that guy.

00:15:22Marc:You know, he looked like he was, you know, it was a weird energy.

00:15:26Marc:But that guy was, you know, he made it charming, I think was the real trick.

00:15:31Yeah.

00:15:31Guest:Well, he had a... He understood that he needed to entertain as well as have something to say.

00:15:38Guest:Right.

00:15:38Guest:And that, I think, was one of his... What really sort of set him apart is because he wanted the laugh.

00:15:46Guest:He, you know, he wanted to sing and dance.

00:15:48Guest:He'd go for it.

00:15:48Guest:He would just do it.

00:15:49Guest:He just wanted you to... You know, when we decided to do this show, my dad was a comic.

00:15:54Guest:Oh, I know, yeah.

00:15:54Guest:So I grew up around comics, and my fear was...

00:15:58Guest:getting into this world was exactly that, that I did not want comics to look at this and go, you know, what the fuck?

00:16:06Guest:That's not at all the world.

00:16:07Guest:Now, it's a different time.

00:16:10Guest:It's a different era.

00:16:10Marc:Totally.

00:16:11Marc:You were able to sort of like, you know, kind of reconstruct or re sort of, what's the word I want?

00:16:18Marc:To re...

00:16:19Marc:understand an entire era or two, you know, through, you know, something that, you know, even like from the very beginning, I realized the scope of the staging was almost musical.

00:16:32Guest:Yeah.

00:16:32Marc:Like, like in terms of how, you know, the size of the sets, the patter that like, you know, it wasn't like this is a historical document.

00:16:39Guest:Right.

00:16:39Guest:We weren't making a documentary.

00:16:40Marc:It's a reimagining.

00:16:42Guest:Yes, a reimagining.

00:16:42Marc:Of a period.

00:16:43Guest:Yeah.

00:16:44Guest:Well, I grew up hearing stories from my dad.

00:16:48Guest:Well, let's go back.

00:16:48Guest:So where'd you grow up?

00:16:49Guest:I grew up in Van Nuys.

00:16:52Guest:I grew up right down, take the freeway back the way I came.

00:16:55Marc:So what was he, the whole time?

00:16:57Marc:Was he from New York?

00:16:58Guest:My dad was from born in the Bronx and he started doing comedy in the Catskills.

00:17:03Marc:Interesting.

00:17:04Guest:And he went to he got drafted and he went into the army.

00:17:08Guest:Which war?

00:17:09Guest:Korean.

00:17:09Guest:Yeah.

00:17:10Guest:And he went into the army and he, you know, his story, which, you know, look, I love my parents, but any truth.

00:17:17Guest:in my family is very rare.

00:17:19Guest:So I take everything with a grain of salt.

00:17:22Marc:Total lies or just embellishments?

00:17:24Guest:A lot of embellishments.

00:17:26Guest:His story was he said to them, if you put me out there and you give me a gun, I will die.

00:17:32Guest:I will take a couple people with me.

00:17:35Guest:And they said, well, what are you?

00:17:36Guest:What good are you to us?

00:17:37Guest:And he says, I'm a comic.

00:17:39Guest:And they said, great, get up on stage.

00:17:42Guest:So he got up on stage and he did Alan King's act.

00:17:46Guest:I think was the one.

00:17:47Guest:And he just did somebody else's act from beginning because he didn't have an act.

00:17:51Marc:Not uncommon then.

00:17:52Guest:Yeah.

00:17:52Guest:And so and they said, great.

00:17:54Guest:OK.

00:17:54Guest:And so he that was how he made it through the war.

00:17:57Guest:He he claims he almost got run over by an ambulance.

00:18:01Guest:I don't know why he was on the ground or asleep.

00:18:03Guest:That was never told to me.

00:18:05Guest:So when he got out of the army, then he started working as a comic and writing his own material.

00:18:11Guest:In New York?

00:18:12Guest:In New York.

00:18:12Guest:And my dad, he had a run.

00:18:15Guest:He opened for Dinah Washington at the Apollo.

00:18:18What year?

00:18:18Guest:I would say late.

00:18:22Guest:Well, see, I was in 66 and then they moved to L.A.

00:18:25Guest:in 64.

00:18:27Guest:So I would say late 50s into the 60s.

00:18:31Marc:So a club act.

00:18:32Marc:Clubs.

00:18:32Marc:Dinner club act.

00:18:33Guest:All clubs.

00:18:33Marc:Yeah.

00:18:33Guest:You know, the Hungry Eye, Blue Angel, you know.

00:18:38Marc:So who were his contemporaries that he hung around with?

00:18:41Guest:Shucky Green.

00:18:44Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:18:45Guest:Jackie Gale.

00:18:47Guest:Dick Capri was my mother's maid of honor at their wedding.

00:18:51Guest:Really?

00:18:51Guest:Yeah.

00:18:52Guest:We actually name-checked Dick Capri in the last episode.

00:18:54Guest:And I told my mom, I'm like, make sure he watches.

00:18:57Guest:That's great.

00:18:57Guest:And she keeps saying, when are you going to –

00:18:59Guest:He doesn't want to keep tuning in until you talk about him.

00:19:02Guest:You know, they talked about Bob Newhart and how they would all hide from him because he was so straight.

00:19:08Guest:He didn't do anything.

00:19:09Guest:He didn't drink.

00:19:09Guest:He didn't do drugs or anything.

00:19:11Guest:So they would sort of like.

00:19:12Marc:He was like, you know, he was Newhart.

00:19:14Marc:Like he wasn't even a comic.

00:19:15Marc:No.

00:19:16Marc:I mean, like he came out of nowhere and he did like he was the second show of the first time he performed that became that record.

00:19:23Guest:Yeah.

00:19:24Guest:And that was it.

00:19:25Guest:And then off to the races.

00:19:26Marc:Crazy.

00:19:27Marc:There's no other way for that guy to have come to be.

00:19:29Guest:He was so great.

00:19:30Marc:Yeah, but, like, he couldn't have, like, I talked to him.

00:19:33Marc:The Cubs would have killed him.

00:19:35Marc:Yeah.

00:19:35Marc:If he had to come up in it.

00:19:36Marc:Yeah.

00:19:37Marc:Because he's such a sensitive.

00:19:38Marc:He's sweet.

00:19:38Guest:Yeah.

00:19:38Guest:He's a sweetheart.

00:19:39Guest:He's a sweetheart.

00:19:40Marc:Yeah, you can't hang out with all those hard shoes.

00:19:43Guest:Oh, it's so.

00:19:43Marc:Get chewed up.

00:19:45Yeah.

00:19:45Guest:Clubs are – they're a thing.

00:19:48Guest:They're a thing.

00:19:48Marc:But at that time, you know, like I didn't realize until I read something like – what was that guy's name?

00:19:54Marc:John Berger's book.

00:19:57Marc:There were literally – people talk about there being so many stand-ups.

00:19:59Marc:Now, there were thousands.

00:20:00Marc:Yeah.

00:20:01Marc:After World War II, it was like anybody could do it.

00:20:03Marc:Everyone was stealing material.

00:20:04Marc:There were 20 guys out there in uniform doing stand-up.

00:20:08Marc:It was crazy.

00:20:08Marc:Yeah.

00:20:09Marc:And there were all these dinner clubs, these mob-run dinner clubs everywhere.

00:20:11Marc:Yeah.

00:20:11Guest:Well, and they loved them all.

00:20:13Guest:Yeah.

00:20:13Guest:I mean, my parents are talking about, nothing about how, you know, when my mother was working at Mr. Kelly's in Chicago.

00:20:21Guest:Right.

00:20:22Guest:She lived in Chicago?

00:20:23Guest:Well, she was working there.

00:20:24Guest:She was a dancer and she worked, she was working a club in, she was working.

00:20:27Marc:Oh, so doing a run?

00:20:28Yeah.

00:20:28Guest:She did like nightclub acts since she either worked with somebody or she had her own little – her and a few guys.

00:20:36Marc:Yeah.

00:20:36Marc:She was cute.

00:20:36Guest:She was about this big, redhead.

00:20:38Marc:Because I know that when I saw that she's a professional dancer, I always wonder about the goal of –

00:20:45Marc:that pursuit.

00:20:47Marc:Of dancing?

00:20:47Marc:Yeah, like, how many gigs?

00:20:49Marc:It's poverty.

00:20:50Marc:How many gigs are they?

00:20:51Marc:But, like, going into it, like, you know, comedy's crazy.

00:20:53Marc:I know.

00:20:53Marc:But, like, even acting's crazy if I'm going to be a dancer.

00:20:55Marc:It's like, there's three jobs.

00:20:57Guest:Yeah, I know.

00:20:57Guest:I know.

00:20:58Guest:And the thing about dancing is you never make money.

00:21:00Guest:Unless you... You just never make money.

00:21:03Guest:There's no way to make money as a dancer unless you're Mikhail Baryshnikov and there's one and that.

00:21:07Marc:Yeah, I just... It's such a princess dream.

00:21:09Marc:It is.

00:21:10Marc:But back then, she could do backup.

00:21:11Guest:It's a real... But it's a real...

00:21:13Guest:It's it's a pure love of just that art form.

00:21:17Guest:And it's quick.

00:21:18Guest:It's a quick it's a quick in and out, you know, but, you know, now the with physical therapy and, you know, all the stuff that you can last into your 40s, 50s, but, you know, not not back when my mom did it.

00:21:29Marc:So what's she doing at Mr. Kelly's?

00:21:30Marc:What's the mom's story?

00:21:31Guest:She was doing a show there and my father came into town to see her perform.

00:21:37Guest:And the guys, and she loved these guys because they would make sure she ate and then nobody hit on her and she felt very protected.

00:21:43Guest:And my dad was sitting there and they came over and they introduced themselves and they sat with him and they said, listen, we're going to go outside and beat the shit out of this guy.

00:21:48Guest:You want to come with us?

00:21:49Guest:He goes, you know, I would, but my wife is about to, she's coming on any minute.

00:21:53Guest:I think she'll be mad.

00:21:54Guest:So like, you know, maybe next time, you know, so that is the Mr. Kelly story, the show.

00:21:57Marc:Yeah.

00:21:58Guest:Possibly true in the Sherman household.

00:22:00Marc:They would ask the Jewish comic.

00:22:02Guest:Yes.

00:22:03Marc:If he would come out and help them kick someone's ass.

00:22:05Guest:My dad was tall.

00:22:06Guest:Yeah.

00:22:06Guest:He was a big dude then.

00:22:07Guest:He was like 6'2 then.

00:22:09Guest:So he had some height on him.

00:22:10Marc:Well, it seemed like there was sort of an, there had to be an unspoken or spoken kind of relationship because they owned all the clubs.

00:22:20Marc:Yeah.

00:22:20Yeah.

00:22:20Marc:So do you remember how many kids in your family?

00:22:25Guest:Just me.

00:22:26Marc:So did you go to shows?

00:22:28Guest:Well, as happens with comics, my father had a really good run and signed with the Morris Agency, and they brought him out here.

00:22:37Guest:And he started writing on the Bobby Darin show and the, you know, anything with a name and a show.

00:22:46Guest:He wrote on for a while.

00:22:48Guest:And then my parents had some, my sister and she passed away very, very young.

00:22:55Guest:And it threw everything into, as will happen, because you lose a child, that's it.

00:23:00Guest:Everything's different.

00:23:01Guest:So it kind of threw him off his trajectory.

00:23:03Guest:And for a long time,

00:23:05Guest:My mother was the breadwinner in the family.

00:23:07Guest:She started teaching dance, and that's how we ate.

00:23:11Guest:And then my father started doing the cruises.

00:23:17Marc:Sure.

00:23:18Guest:And the great thing about my father in the cruises was he wasn't blue.

00:23:22Marc:He didn't work blue.

00:23:23Marc:That's still the way.

00:23:25Marc:Some of them have a blue night, though.

00:23:26Marc:It used to always be you got to be clean on the boats, but now they have a blue show.

00:23:30Guest:Oh, they do?

00:23:31Guest:They've got one dirty show?

00:23:32Guest:Well, I don't know how exactly it works.

00:23:33Marc:At like 1145?

00:23:34Marc:But there are guys that do the boats still.

00:23:36Marc:I mean, they do the boats.

00:23:38Guest:I'm telling you, it's an amazing gig.

00:23:41Guest:My father has a very conversational relationship.

00:23:47Guest:way of or he did long form whether it's always one-liners it was like no stories like alan king yeah right so he would go on boats and he would talk about the specific boat so everybody felt like oh we're getting a special show that's just for us right and the great thing about those boats is they're you know they're a scam you they sell you this thing they say don't bring your wallet everything is free it's included you go every nothing's included you

00:24:11Guest:The minute you order Diet Coke, it's $49.95.

00:24:13Guest:And then they bring you out to see an iceberg at 3 in the morning.

00:24:16Guest:And you're standing there and they bring these beautiful soup bowls around.

00:24:18Guest:Everyone's cold and you eat the soup.

00:24:19Guest:And that's $58.95.

00:24:21Guest:So about halfway through a cruise, all the men realize they've been scammed.

00:24:27Guest:And they start to fight with their wives.

00:24:28Guest:And then the kids start to mobilize.

00:24:30Guest:And it's Lord of the Flies off.

00:24:31Guest:And it starts to get very frightening.

00:24:33Guest:This is just the way it works.

00:24:34Guest:Literally, it's horrible.

00:24:36Guest:And so my dad would not work until halfway through the cruise, and he would come on, and he would just say, who else can't fit in your shower?

00:24:43Guest:Who else did... The thing, they were going to take me on a tour of the boat, and I got in a boat, and they put me on the boat, and I'm back on the boat.

00:24:49Guest:So I was like, he would talk about what a...

00:24:51Guest:Basically a scam.

00:24:53Guest:The cruises are.

00:24:54Guest:And it was so cathartic for especially these schlubby dudes who were dragged out there.

00:25:01Guest:And they felt so good and happy that by the end of the cruise, my dad was like Bono.

00:25:06Guest:Yeah.

00:25:06Guest:Like he like all the all the old women just loved him right to him.

00:25:11Guest:And then he started marriages.

00:25:12Guest:Oh, my God.

00:25:13Guest:It was it was it was it was great.

00:25:14Guest:It was great to watch.

00:25:15Guest:So I actually didn't see my dad do stand up until I was about 13, 14 years old because he was always on boats.

00:25:22Guest:And I was, you know, and so when I was 13.

00:25:26Guest:My dad said, come take a cruise with me to Mexico and we will... A short one.

00:25:30Guest:A short one, yeah.

00:25:31Guest:A short one.

00:25:32Guest:I mean, that's good for the Sherman family.

00:25:34Guest:And so I was... So my mom put me on a plane to Florida.

00:25:38Guest:I had to meet him in Florida because he was already out there.

00:25:41Guest:So I was going to meet him in the boat in Florida and I got to Florida.

00:25:44Guest:And this is pre 9-11.

00:25:46Guest:So I got to Florida and he wasn't there.

00:25:48Guest:And I didn't have a cell phone.

00:25:50Guest:Yeah.

00:25:51Guest:And I just sort of said, I'm here for the cruise.

00:25:55Guest:And people said, well, the bus over there is going to that boat.

00:25:59Guest:So I just got on the bus.

00:26:00Marc:Right.

00:26:00Guest:And I drove to the boat and I got on the boat and I said, I'm Don Sherman's daughter.

00:26:05Guest:And they said, OK.

00:26:06Guest:And they showed me to his cabin.

00:26:08Guest:And as I'm walking the cabin, I'm hearing people who will work on the boat saying there's hurricanes and the entertainment's not going to make it in time.

00:26:16Guest:And so I'm 13.

00:26:19Guest:I'm on the boat.

00:26:20Guest:I don't have money.

00:26:21Guest:I have nothing.

00:26:22Guest:I'm supposed to meet my dad.

00:26:23Guest:I sat in the room for a while.

00:26:25Guest:And then there was a lifeboat drill.

00:26:27Guest:And someone said, you got to put your –

00:26:28Guest:And come to your boat.

00:26:30Guest:So I put my thing on, went out to the boat, and the boat's starting to pull away.

00:26:34Guest:And I'm like, well, at some point, somebody's going to tell me to get off the boat or something.

00:26:37Guest:But they, like, literally, like, at the last minute, with him and, like, a harp player, you know, with the spoons and whatever.

00:26:45Guest:And he was in a panic.

00:26:47Guest:But it was like I almost took a cruise by myself, which I was very excited about.

00:26:50Guest:So where was your dad?

00:26:51Guest:Because my dad, he would get on a boat, but then he would either stay somewhere and work many boats, or he'd go from boat to boat to boat.

00:27:00Marc:But that boat, the one you got on, it was going to hit bad weather, so they basically canceled it?

00:27:04Guest:No, my dad was stuck in bad weather.

00:27:06Guest:The boat that he was on was stuck out in a hurricane.

00:27:09Guest:And so he had to get from that boat to this boat.

00:27:11Marc:That's crazy.

00:27:12Marc:So he's a real boat guy.

00:27:13Guest:He was a boat guy.

00:27:14Guest:But it was amazing watching it, and it was amazing watching... When did you get to see him finally?

00:27:20Guest:Then, when he finally made it to the boat.

00:27:22Guest:We got to the boat.

00:27:23Guest:We spent a week together, and I saw his act.

00:27:25Marc:That was the first time, 13.

00:27:27Marc:First time.

00:27:28Marc:Did he do TV stuff?

00:27:29Guest:He did some TV stuff, but he mostly, when I was really young, he was touring.

00:27:34Guest:He toured with Sergio Mendez, and he toured with...

00:27:37Guest:Jose Feliciano.

00:27:40Marc:He was like, you know, Polly's dad.

00:27:43Marc:Sammy.

00:27:44Guest:Yeah.

00:27:45Guest:Sammy was a friend.

00:27:46Guest:Mitzi was a very good friend of his.

00:27:47Guest:So when I got old enough, Mitzi threw me a couple of jobs at the comedy store and then promptly fired me when she realized I wasn't going to become a comic.

00:27:56Guest:Because those jobs were supposed to be for comics.

00:27:58Marc:Which ones did you get?

00:27:59Guest:When I was...

00:28:01Guest:18, I worked in the office.

00:28:03Marc:Sure.

00:28:04Guest:So I got to hand Sammy his $30 check, which was... So that's going back when he was still around.

00:28:08Guest:Yeah.

00:28:10Guest:Wow.

00:28:10Guest:And so I was there for like a year.

00:28:13Guest:Yeah.

00:28:13Guest:And then she realized I need that job for somebody else.

00:28:16Marc:What was that like in the 70s?

00:28:18Guest:Yeah, I think so.

00:28:19Guest:Yeah, must be.

00:28:20Guest:And then when I turned 21, she put me at the...

00:28:24Marc:Cover booth?

00:28:24Guest:Cover booth.

00:28:25Marc:Yeah.

00:28:25Guest:And I worked in the OR.

00:28:27Marc:Yeah.

00:28:27Guest:And then I also worked in the main room.

00:28:30Marc:In the cover booth?

00:28:31Marc:Yeah.

00:28:32Marc:Wow.

00:28:32Marc:So that was an informative time, but you were around then.

00:28:35Guest:I was around then.

00:28:36Guest:The lineup, right before I got fired the second time, was Kinison and Arsenio Hall and Dice and Charles Fleischer.

00:28:47Guest:Yeah.

00:28:48Guest:That was sort of like the main group that I would see.

00:28:50Guest:Wow.

00:28:50Marc:I must have just missed you.

00:28:51Marc:I was there 87.

00:28:53Marc:You must have been there in like 84, 83.

00:28:54Marc:I know.

00:28:56Guest:Sam was dating Tamayo Otsaki and watching that, those two people fight.

00:29:01Marc:Dude, I have a tape of that in the OR.

00:29:04Marc:It's the greatest thing in the world.

00:29:05Marc:Because I lived in the house where Tamayo lived in Crest Hill.

00:29:09Marc:Like I lived there when I was a doorman.

00:29:11Marc:So Sam used to come up there and party for three days and yell.

00:29:14Marc:Yeah.

00:29:15Guest:All they did was yell.

00:29:16Guest:All they did was get in fights at the back of the bar.

00:29:18Marc:Yeah, well, I have this weird tape that I need to digitize because I found it in Mitzi's office because they were cleaning it out.

00:29:26Marc:And I have, like, look, I have this.

00:29:28Marc:Look at these.

00:29:30Marc:Her driver's license.

00:29:31Guest:Oh, my God.

00:29:33Guest:Why are these just sitting here?

00:29:35Marc:Because, like, the binder did a doc, and the office was all, like, you know, a mess.

00:29:40Marc:So I asked if I could take some shit, and that was on the floor.

00:29:43Marc:So I'm like, well, Peter knows I have it.

00:29:45Guest:That's amazing.

00:29:46Guest:That's so great, though.

00:29:48Marc:And then I got the one from 74.

00:29:50Marc:That's, like, right after she took the place over.

00:29:52Marc:Right.

00:29:53Marc:So you were, your childhood, like, after you saw your dad do comedy, was it the idea that you were going to be in show business?

00:29:59Marc:Well.

00:29:59Guest:Well, I mean, I was not, my family was not set up to do anything else.

00:30:04Guest:I, when I had graduated and I was in my like, I was like 23.

00:30:08Guest:Yeah.

00:30:09Guest:I was, we were having dinner and my dad turned to me and he goes, did you want to go to college?

00:30:13Guest:Cause we could have sent you.

00:30:15Guest:And I was like, and at that point it was like, no, the ship has sailed.

00:30:19Guest:Yeah.

00:30:20Guest:Cause it was, it was just, you know, my mom really wanted me to be a dancer, but she really didn't want me to move to New York.

00:30:26Guest:If you wanted to be a dancer, you had to move to New York.

00:30:30Guest:There were no California dancers.

00:30:31Marc:But to do what?

00:30:32Marc:Be a rockette?

00:30:33Marc:I mean, what's the big plan?

00:30:34Marc:Broadway.

00:30:35Marc:Okay.

00:30:36Marc:Broadway.

00:30:36Marc:Musicals.

00:30:37Guest:Musicals.

00:30:38Guest:Now, the thing is, I can't sing.

00:30:40Guest:I can't sing.

00:30:40Marc:Okay.

00:30:41Guest:So that's a problem.

00:30:42Guest:Yeah.

00:30:42Guest:It's an issue.

00:30:43Guest:Yeah.

00:30:43Guest:I was a good dancer, but I was...

00:30:45Guest:I didn't... It was not in the cards.

00:30:49Guest:What happened is fine.

00:30:50Guest:My mother's not okay with it, but what happened was fine.

00:30:54Guest:Yeah, I think she'd still perform.

00:30:55Marc:After you made a billion dollars in television, she's still like you should have been a dancer?

00:31:00Guest:My mother is 92, and she's working on her...

00:31:02Guest:She's the fourth one-woman show right now and writing her memoirs.

00:31:05Guest:And I don't know what any of that means because this woman has worse punctuation than I do and cannot put a sentence together to save her life.

00:31:11Marc:But she's going to ask you to help her out, isn't she?

00:31:14Guest:No, no, no, no.

00:31:14Guest:She's very – she's got her own – Who's going to publish a memoir?

00:31:17Guest:I don't know.

00:31:18Guest:I don't know.

00:31:18Guest:I'll bribe somebody to do it.

00:31:20Guest:But it's just – she's – All right.

00:31:23Marc:So she's pushing you to be a dancer.

00:31:25Marc:You're in your teens?

00:31:26Yeah.

00:31:26Guest:Yeah, I was in dance class at four, and I was dancing when I got my first job on Roseanne.

00:31:34Guest:I had a callback for Cats and for a touring bus and truck, which I never would have gotten anyhow because I lied and said I did gymnastics, which I didn't do.

00:31:45Guest:Right.

00:31:46Guest:And I got the call to I had a writing partner for one year and we got the call to that.

00:31:51Guest:We got the job on Roseanne.

00:31:52Marc:But you were doing scripts.

00:31:53Marc:You were writing things.

00:31:55Guest:You know, I was in improv classes and we were bored and out of work.

00:31:58Guest:So we would sit and we would write some spec scripts.

00:32:00Guest:And I had a thing for Richard Lewis.

00:32:04Guest:So we wrote an anything but love spec script because I thought, well, you know, did you know him?

00:32:09Guest:I don't never met him.

00:32:10Guest:Do you know him now?

00:32:12Guest:No.

00:32:13Guest:But later in life, he heard that story and he actually left me a really lovely voicemail.

00:32:19Guest:I don't know how he got my.

00:32:21Guest:Yeah.

00:32:22Guest:But I never talked to him.

00:32:23Guest:I have the tape.

00:32:24Guest:Yeah.

00:32:24Guest:I don't know what you play it in anymore because you don't have answering machines.

00:32:26Guest:Right.

00:32:27Marc:The little one.

00:32:27Marc:The little teeny tape.

00:32:28Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:32:28Marc:You got to figure out.

00:32:30Marc:Well, no.

00:32:31Marc:Like, I wonder what he thinks of the show.

00:32:33Marc:He's a big Lenny head.

00:32:34Yeah.

00:32:34Guest:Well, I hope, you know, we tried to be very, you know, Kitty was very involved because, I mean, because Kitty... Kitty Bruce.

00:32:42Guest:Yeah, she controls all his material.

00:32:44Guest:So anytime we want, and we never wrote stand-up for him.

00:32:49Guest:Right.

00:32:49Guest:We wrote his dialogue, but we never wrote a word of stand-up.

00:32:53Guest:Yeah.

00:32:54Guest:It was all his stuff.

00:32:55Guest:Yeah.

00:32:56Guest:So she had a lot of say and could have been...

00:33:00Marc:a pain and she was absolutely lovely and she came down once and oh yeah set and she was really like how he played him she did she yeah she she liked luke a lot oh that's sweet the ladies like luke yeah yeah he's very likable i was yeah he is i i'm telling you i was totally surprised yeah i was i was cynical i was i was going in it with the you know with the wrong glasses on i was immediately uh engaged

00:33:22Guest:Well, he's such a worshiper.

00:33:23Guest:It was weird because he came in to audition for the pilot and the Lenny Bruce character was in one scene.

00:33:28Guest:He was just playing like a strip club.

00:33:31Guest:And he was... And there were actually weirdly three really good... One guy who looked just like him and did a dead-on impression.

00:33:40Guest:And then there was Luke.

00:33:41Guest:And then there was another guy who was also very good.

00:33:43Guest:And we sort of were going back and forth and we said, if...

00:33:47Guest:If we ever wanted to bring Lenny back and ever wanted to have him have a scene with a character, you got to go with Luke.

00:33:55Marc:Yeah.

00:33:56Guest:If we just want a dead-on impression.

00:33:58Guest:Right.

00:33:58Marc:You're right.

00:33:58Marc:It wasn't an impression.

00:33:59Marc:Yeah, he could act.

00:34:00Guest:It was a sense of it that he's a really terrific actor.

00:34:03Guest:And Luke just knows everything.

00:34:05Guest:So I would—

00:34:06Marc:He knew coming in or he knew everything.

00:34:08Guest:He was obsessed with it.

00:34:09Guest:He knew all the recordings.

00:34:11Guest:And so every time I would, and there were so many different versions of the same bit because it existed in so many different ways that he did it that I would put something forth and he would say, but you know, here he kind of did like some of that.

00:34:25Guest:Can I put that in?

00:34:26Guest:So it was a lot of like,

00:34:28Marc:And Kitty's on set?

00:34:29Guest:And Kitty was only on set once, but everything went to her, and we had to say, you know, here's what we want to do, and we want to... Because we had to also mix and match pieces.

00:34:40Marc:Right.

00:34:40Marc:Now, what about, like, Rachel?

00:34:42Marc:Like, I've talked to her.

00:34:43Marc:We had a conversation in season one.

00:34:44Marc:Like, it's very interesting to me, and it's not a criticism, but, like, because I notice this about, look...

00:34:52Marc:Steven Spielberg did a movie about his family of Jews with no Jews.

00:34:57Marc:Yes, he did.

00:34:59Marc:And then James Gray did Armageddon Time, a movie about his family, with no Jews.

00:35:04Marc:Yes.

00:35:05Marc:And then Rachel, not a Jew.

00:35:07Marc:Yes.

00:35:08Marc:And how many Jews did you see?

00:35:12Guest:Many, many Jews.

00:35:13Guest:Many Jews.

00:35:13Guest:Every Jew that left Egypt auditioned for Maisel.

00:35:17Guest:I will say that.

00:35:18Guest:There were many Jews.

00:35:19Guest:You know, the thing about it is a hard part.

00:35:21Guest:It is.

00:35:21Guest:And a lot of comics, good comics, came in and auditioned for it.

00:35:25Guest:But it was that mixture of, it was also the mixture of, especially at the very beginning, she couldn't be a person.

00:35:32Guest:You had to watch.

00:35:35Guest:You had to know that the spark was there, but you had to watch the evolution because that's what the show was.

00:35:41Marc:What's interesting about her and why it worked from the very beginning is because she has that as a character.

00:35:46Marc:I don't think as a person, but she has that kind of like almost sociopathic self-centeredness.

00:35:52Guest:Oh, my God.

00:35:52Guest:A complete narcissist.

00:35:53Marc:Right.

00:35:54Marc:That you need to just plow ahead.

00:35:57Marc:Yeah.

00:35:57Marc:Like, you know, right from the beginning, it's so clear that there's that disconnect between emotional capacity and her desire to do this thing.

00:36:05Guest:Well, because the thing about comedy is you have to be willing to talk about your life.

00:36:11Marc:If you want to do that kind of comedy, sure.

00:36:13Guest:Yes.

00:36:14Guest:You know, and you have to be willing to...

00:36:17Guest:potentially upset people in your life because you are being honest and you are talking about the things that happen.

00:36:25Marc:But that's a modern configuration.

00:36:26Marc:You chose to construct a character and time travel her.

00:36:30Guest:I did.

00:36:30Guest:But, you know, part of the way I did her comedy was because I knew I was dealing with an actress and I was not dealing with a comic.

00:36:38Marc:It's probably better because, like, comics, it's hit or miss with the acting.

00:36:41Guest:Well, it's tough.

00:36:42Guest:Yeah.

00:36:43Guest:It's a hard combination to get, you know, the actors can't play musicians.

00:36:47Marc:Well, right, because the comedians have that thing we just talked about.

00:36:50Marc:So you're going to tell them instruction, but they're going to have that weird disconnect where, you know, they don't have the right amount of...

00:36:58Guest:capacity for engaging for listening we we always had comics in our room on our on staff they would jump in and they would say that's bullshit or they would jump in and say it doesn't it doesn't here's the experience with the bits with the with the and with everything right with clubs with how much you time you get with every little tiny thing because i wanted to make sure that it felt

00:37:24Guest:especially in the beginning was as she was learning and as she was putting it together, I wanted to make sure that they would look at it because I didn't want her to come out and boom, she was the funniest thing in the world and knew how to craft her joke and knew what the whole thing was.

00:37:38Guest:And so they were sort of like keeping us in check.

00:37:42Guest:But the other thing about Rachel was for her to be able to play this part, she had to have an emotional thread in whatever...

00:37:50Guest:monologue she was doing.

00:37:52Guest:Even if it was a quickie, there had to be something in it.

00:37:55Guest:And we tried to always tie what she was talking about to something that was going on within the show.

00:38:00Guest:So she had something to grasp onto.

00:38:03Guest:And then you could structure jokes around that and you could work with her.

00:38:07Guest:And she was very... I mean, the great thing about Rachel is because she's so smart and she's so fearless and so... doesn't really care...

00:38:19Guest:what people think about her.

00:38:21Guest:And I mean that in the best way because she would be up on stage with a room full of extras staring at her.

00:38:26Guest:She's the star.

00:38:27Guest:And she would say, tell me how to say this.

00:38:30Guest:Tell me where the inflection, because she just wanted it to be right.

00:38:34Guest:Then she would get up and work it and work it and work it.

00:38:36Guest:And there were times where she would come to me and she would say, I need something to get me to this.

00:38:41Guest:I need something to get me to this.

00:38:42Guest:So the monologues were very much about

00:38:45Guest:letting her feel like there was an emotional story connection because then she didn't feel weird going out doing jokes.

00:38:52Guest:I think if we had just given... Because, you know, like Joan Rivers, she had these great jokes.

00:38:56Guest:But I think if I had just given Rachel great crafted jokes, I don't know that she would have known how to do them because she was thinking... And it's like it, you know, it...

00:39:06Marc:The possibility for failure would have been high.

00:39:09Guest:Yeah.

00:39:10Marc:Because there is a way to stick.

00:39:11Guest:Yeah.

00:39:12Marc:And that's not what she's doing.

00:39:13Marc:Yeah.

00:39:14Marc:So that choice was to create this character.

00:39:16Marc:It almost becomes all the way through.

00:39:17Marc:Once she has success with the tour, with the R&B group or that guy.

00:39:22Marc:Yeah.

00:39:23Marc:And then, you know, just onward.

00:39:25Marc:It's seeing this.

00:39:26Marc:The reimagining is really kind of an alternative feminist history of this period of show business.

00:39:33Guest:Yeah.

00:39:33Guest:It is.

00:39:33Guest:Right.

00:39:33Guest:It is.

00:39:34Guest:I mean, we, you know, people keep saying, well, who did you craft her after?

00:39:37Guest:And my honest story is my dad.

00:39:39Guest:Sure.

00:39:39Guest:Because I grew up with these stories.

00:39:42Guest:I mean, I stripped stuff out of his life.

00:39:45Guest:He toured with Johnny Mathis.

00:39:46Guest:You know, I did things that he came, you know, he told me about.

00:39:50Guest:And I said, well, I don't know a good thing.

00:39:51Marc:And also, like, it's interesting that, you know, he started stealing from Alan King because that, you know, is really, you know, out of... Alan King was the guy that, you know, made the middle class Jew, you know, a thing.

00:40:04Marc:Yeah.

00:40:04Marc:You know, he pulled it out of the Borscht Belt and made it, you know, it was the passing bit.

00:40:10Guest:Yes.

00:40:10Marc:You know?

00:40:10Marc:Yes.

00:40:11Marc:But it was about life.

00:40:12Marc:It was about middle class life.

00:40:13Marc:And, you know, and Midge, Rachel's Midge comes from...

00:40:18Marc:It's almost pre-middle class, but it's upper class.

00:40:21Marc:They live well.

00:40:22Guest:Yes.

00:40:23Guest:That was back in the days when if you were a tenured professor, you had a beautiful apartment on the West Side.

00:40:29Guest:They gave it to you.

00:40:30Marc:But that's the style, right?

00:40:31Marc:So it's not really a Lenny Bruce thing.

00:40:33Marc:It's really kind of that, you know, it's those Jews who were talking about bourgeois life.

00:40:38Guest:Yeah.

00:40:40Guest:And then by making her a female as opposed to my father—

00:40:47Guest:It allowed sort of a... Well, I never looked at it as a feminist show because I don't ever look at my work like that.

00:40:55Marc:I just say that because it's a point of view thing.

00:40:57Guest:It's important.

00:40:58Guest:But it came off a little like that.

00:41:01Guest:And I'm fine with that.

00:41:02Guest:I'm not upset with that.

00:41:04Guest:It allowed sort of a point of view that...

00:41:09Guest:Made it less... The thing I was really concerned about is I didn't want people to look at this and think, like, that's my grandma's show.

00:41:16Guest:I wanted people to be able to enjoy it, and I wanted young women to be able to watch it and not feel like, eh, you know... What do you know about the audience?

00:41:22Guest:I want to see girls, you know?

00:41:24Guest:So I think that by...

00:41:27Guest:watching her struggle and watching her come from this, and this adorable girl, because Rachel's so damn cute, with the cute clothes and everything, and yet can't hold the husband, going up against the family, going up against not getting the respect, it made all of that palatable, and it made her more human.

00:41:48Marc:So what do you know about the audience in general?

00:41:50Marc:Nothing.

00:41:51Marc:I don't know anything about it.

00:41:52Marc:Because it's interesting.

00:41:54Guest:They're alive and they're out there.

00:41:55Marc:Well, I imagine that, you know, there is that generation of people that, you know, enjoy the, what is it?

00:42:02Marc:The Alan Arkin, you know, Michael, what is that show called?

00:42:05Marc:The Kaminsky Method.

00:42:07Marc:Like clearly there's an audience of people of our parents' generation that are engaged in stuff that speaks to them.

00:42:13Marc:So I think that you have this spectrum of people that can be pulled into this because it has the trappings of their past.

00:42:20Marc:Yes.

00:42:20Marc:And it speaks to the experience of that.

00:42:23Marc:And the patter of it kind of is reminiscent of something they grew up in.

00:42:28Guest:Yeah.

00:42:28Marc:But yet it's really a young people show.

00:42:30Guest:It is a young people show.

00:42:31Guest:Although the interesting thing is the gripes about the show that I heard through mostly through the filter of Rachel Brosnahan, who cannot put her phone down.

00:42:40Guest:I love her so much.

00:42:41Guest:Right.

00:42:42Guest:But it's like, baby, put the phone down.

00:42:44Guest:Just put it down.

00:42:45Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:42:46Guest:Is this issue about you're a bad mother.

00:42:49Guest:You're a bad mother.

00:42:50Guest:And this became a very big issue.

00:42:53Guest:And Rachel talked to me about it a lot.

00:42:55Guest:At first, I was very cavalier about it.

00:42:57Guest:And I said, you know, Rachel, I don't give a shit.

00:42:59Guest:I don't care what you read online.

00:43:02Guest:I'm not on social media.

00:43:05Guest:We're not doing the show for the six people who are calling you a bad mother.

00:43:10Guest:But then, like, I would have...

00:43:13Guest:the new york times say say so what's this thing about the mothering like wow so this is a thing really in this day and age where we're talking about women and this and that you're asking me like she's a bad mother because she's got ambition and because she wants to go on the road and she wants to have a career yeah but what the fuck is that i mean it's like you know you listen but you listen to the stories of any entertainer's family they were all shitty parents of course that's the point it's like you know they make a choice to do this thing

00:43:39Guest:You need shitty parents to make more entertainers.

00:43:43Marc:Right.

00:43:43Marc:Like Buster Keaton was used as like, you know, just fodder.

00:43:46Marc:Yeah.

00:43:47Marc:I mean, it was like there's no it's it's interesting thing that you're putting this modern sort of point of view into the past.

00:43:55Marc:And then these people are criticizing her on behalf of what?

00:43:58Marc:It was domestic expectation.

00:44:00Marc:Yeah.

00:44:00Guest:And they would ask everyone about it.

00:44:01Guest:They would ask Alex Borstein about it, who didn't have kids in the show.

00:44:04Marc:Well, she's another interesting character because at the beginning, she was the one I had the most trouble with because I thought it was broad.

00:44:10Marc:But then you just start to realize she's just weird.

00:44:12Guest:Yeah.

00:44:12Marc:And then it kind of settles, you know?

00:44:14Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:44:15Guest:And Alex is...

00:44:17Guest:Alex is a very special talent.

00:44:20Marc:Yeah, I just talked to her.

00:44:21Guest:She's because she brings a level of pathos into the room with her.

00:44:27Guest:And it's what grounded Susie.

00:44:30Guest:Because Susie was such a ball-busting, fuck you, I don't care, whatever I think I say.

00:44:36Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:44:37Guest:You know, I'm going to be alone anyhow, so I'm not even going to try to connect with humanity.

00:44:41Guest:Right.

00:44:43Guest:But there was a there's there's such vulnerability in Alex Borstein as an actress and as a person that it actually took this character that could have gone much more in the stratosphere.

00:44:52Guest:And it sort of tethered her to the.

00:44:53Marc:Yeah, I can see that.

00:44:55Marc:So like but this is like this show is not it's not like anything that existed before, really.

00:45:01Marc:Like, you know, in the way that – you know, it's not like a three-camera trip.

00:45:05Marc:It's not – you know, it's not quite a movie.

00:45:09Marc:But it engages all these devices of, you know, old movies in a way.

00:45:15Marc:But, like, how do you – like, when you started writing, we were talking before that you were doing spec scripts for Richard Lewis and you're, like, just – but you're just general show business family.

00:45:24Marc:You're dancing.

00:45:25Marc:You're working at the comedy store.

00:45:27Marc:Was Roseanne at the store when you were there?

00:45:29Marc:Roseanne – Just left probably?

00:45:30Guest:She –

00:45:30Guest:Would come in every now and then.

00:45:32Guest:Like she came in and bombed one night and then just screamed at the whole audience and then left.

00:45:35Guest:But she's still doing that.

00:45:36Guest:Yeah.

00:45:36Marc:So there you go.

00:45:38Marc:So how does it unfold?

00:45:40Marc:So you spent like a long time at the store at that time.

00:45:42Marc:So you saw everybody.

00:45:44Guest:I saw everybody.

00:45:44Guest:And it was really – and I also saw – and I wish I could remember his name because I use this example all the time.

00:45:49Guest:He was a guy.

00:45:50Guest:He was so sweet.

00:45:51Guest:Yeah.

00:45:51Guest:He's a very tiny guy, but he's so lovely.

00:45:53Guest:And he would come in, and he always had an early slot.

00:45:57Guest:And he would, I think he emceed a little bit, but he would emcee, and then his actual slot was later, and he would come in early, and he was sweet and adorable, and he would stand at the back, and he would drink, and he would drink, and he would drink, and he'd get nervous, and drink, and drink.

00:46:10Guest:And by the time he went on stage,

00:46:12Guest:He was so angry.

00:46:14Guest:He assumed the audience was going to turn on him before he walked up on stage, and he attacked immediately.

00:46:20Guest:And he bombed almost every time he went on stage.

00:46:23Guest:And then I would see him the next night at the beginning of the night, and he was sweet and adorable.

00:46:27Guest:I'm like, just don't drink.

00:46:30Guest:See what happens if you just go.

00:46:31Marc:But Missy kept him in that late spot.

00:46:33Guest:The fear.

00:46:34Marc:Yeah.

00:46:35Guest:The fear of, like, comedy is so fear-driven.

00:46:38Guest:It's so interesting because I saw, you know, I...

00:46:42Guest:I think comics, personally, I think it's the art form.

00:46:46Guest:I think it's the most terrifying art form out there because if you go up there and you bomb, you can't say, oh, the script was bad or the director hung me up to dry or my dress looked like shit or my actor.

00:46:57Guest:It's you.

00:46:57Yeah.

00:46:58Guest:They don't like you.

00:46:59Guest:They don't like what you're saying.

00:47:00Guest:They don't like your point of view.

00:47:01Guest:Your life is not interesting to them.

00:47:03Guest:It's total and utter rejection of everything that you want.

00:47:06Guest:That's so hard.

00:47:08Marc:What's crazy, but like I used to say that like really for as long as it takes, you know, about 75% of the job is pretending you're not afraid.

00:47:15Marc:Yes.

00:47:16Marc:And then eventually you're not.

00:47:18Marc:Because it doesn't matter as much anymore.

00:47:20Marc:You're just numb to the world.

00:47:22Marc:Well, no, you're not numb, but, you know, it's like any other job that, like, some nights are better than others.

00:47:26Marc:Yeah.

00:47:27Marc:And, you know, you get past a certain point where you're going to be run off stage, probably.

00:47:31Guest:Yeah.

00:47:32Marc:Unless something really fucked up happens.

00:47:34Marc:Yeah.

00:47:35Marc:But so when you watched it, the nuts and bolts of it every night when you're working the cover booth at the store, I mean, were you empathetic?

00:47:42Guest:Yeah.

00:47:42Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:47:43Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:47:44Guest:I was very empathetic.

00:47:45Guest:It broke my heart a lot.

00:47:46Guest:And, you know, I had to turn the light on in the OR when you sat at the cover booth.

00:47:50Marc:Eddie Cantor's— You had to give him the light.

00:47:52Marc:The Eddie Cantor picture?

00:47:53Guest:Yeah.

00:47:53Guest:And it was horrible.

00:47:54Guest:It was horrible, like, having to, like, say, like, and you're done.

00:47:56Guest:You know, it was just— But they had a certain amount of time.

00:47:59Guest:I know they had a certain amount of time.

00:48:00Guest:But it was weird for me because I was not—I didn't have that ambition—

00:48:04Marc:But did you think you did?

00:48:05Marc:Is that why you got the job?

00:48:07Guest:No, I think it's just because it's all I knew.

00:48:09Guest:Like, I grew up with that.

00:48:10Guest:I needed a job.

00:48:12Guest:And my dad got me the job.

00:48:14Guest:Mitzi always was very sweet, sweet to my dad.

00:48:17Guest:And, you know, according to my mother, she was in love with your dad.

00:48:21Guest:Mitzi was in love with your dad.

00:48:22Guest:I don't know if that's true.

00:48:23Guest:But according to my mother, Mitzi was in love with my dad.

00:48:25Marc:The great love of her life, I think, was Steve Landisberg.

00:48:27Guest:Oh, really?

00:48:29Marc:Yeah.

00:48:30Marc:After Sammy, it was Steve Landisberg.

00:48:32Marc:And then she, I think, went through a dark period where she just fucked a lot of comics.

00:48:36Guest:Yeah.

00:48:36Guest:I think her boyfriend was Danny.

00:48:37Guest:Danny Stone?

00:48:38Marc:I must have just missed you.

00:48:39Guest:I mean, come on.

00:48:41Marc:Were we there together for fuck's sake?

00:48:44Guest:I think we were.

00:48:45Guest:What happened?

00:48:46Guest:I don't know.

00:48:47Guest:Why did you notice me?

00:48:48Marc:That's crazy.

00:48:49Marc:Because Danny Stone, all he did was that fucking, it was the weirdest thing that they were together.

00:48:53Marc:All he did was Dangerfield, the Dangerfield impression.

00:48:56Guest:Argus Hamilton.

00:48:57Marc:He's still there.

00:48:58Marc:At the comedy store?

00:49:00Marc:Yes, every night.

00:49:01Marc:He's grandfathered in.

00:49:03Marc:As long as he's alive, he gets an opening spot.

00:49:05Marc:He comes in, parks his Cadillac, does like the second spot in the main room, and leaves.

00:49:10Marc:Unbelievable.

00:49:10Marc:And he kills man.

00:49:12Guest:Really?

00:49:12Marc:And you know who else is there again?

00:49:14Marc:Dreesen.

00:49:15Marc:Really?

00:49:15Marc:Yes.

00:49:17Marc:And it's the same thing like with Miss Maisel in a way is that like I watch Tom Dreesen and same with Argus.

00:49:25Marc:This is old style patter.

00:49:27Marc:Yeah.

00:49:27Marc:The way they do jokes.

00:49:29Marc:And I think for people of a certain age, it's very comforting.

00:49:31Guest:Yeah, it is comforting.

00:49:32Marc:It's like it's funny.

00:49:34Marc:Sure.

00:49:34Marc:It's funny.

00:49:35Guest:You know, it's fucking funny.

00:49:37Marc:Yeah.

00:49:37Guest:It's just funny.

00:49:38Marc:But it's a style that you don't – there's very few people that do it anymore.

00:49:42Marc:Yeah, I know.

00:49:42Marc:The guys who carry that tradition are rare.

00:49:44Marc:You know, like Dave Attell is like the best example of a guy who like lives in that and took it to another dimension.

00:49:51Marc:Yeah.

00:49:51Marc:Anyway.

00:49:52Marc:Yeah.

00:49:52Marc:So Comedy Store Talk.

00:49:53Marc:So you got out.

00:49:54Marc:I got out.

00:49:55Marc:As a writer, that's when you got your job?

00:49:57Guest:Yeah.

00:49:57Guest:I got my job a couple of years later.

00:50:00Marc:How'd you get the job on Roseanne?

00:50:02Marc:That was the first job?

00:50:03Guest:It was literally like, yeah, it was just, it was a fluke.

00:50:06Guest:And it was, it was, I hate telling people this, like young people who are like, how did you get in?

00:50:10Guest:I'm like, you don't want to hear my story because it sounds too easy.

00:50:12Guest:It's, it's,

00:50:13Guest:It was – again, I had a partner for like one year.

00:50:17Guest:We were in the Groundlings – Who's that?

00:50:21Guest:She around?

00:50:22Guest:Her name was Jennifer Heath.

00:50:23Guest:And she was actually – I thought she would have been a really – she did stand-up.

00:50:29Guest:But Jennifer –

00:50:31Guest:And she was very funny, but Jennifer didn't like clubs.

00:50:33Guest:She didn't drink.

00:50:34Guest:She didn't like people who smoked.

00:50:35Guest:She couldn't take the clubs, so she couldn't do it.

00:50:39Guest:I mean, you got to be at the club to do stand-up, so it didn't work out.

00:50:42Guest:But I actually thought if she had a belt and a smoke, she would have been really great.

00:50:48Guest:But we...

00:50:49Guest:We're in the Groundlings Loser classes together, and then we decided we'll write a couple.

00:50:54Guest:She really wanted to write a spec script.

00:50:55Guest:I'm like, fine, I don't care.

00:50:57Guest:So we wrote two spec scripts.

00:50:58Guest:We wrote a Anything But Love, and we wrote a Roseanne spec script.

00:51:02Guest:And I was in – and I realized, oh, God, if I'm going to do this, I've got to learn how to use a thing because I don't even know how to type.

00:51:08Guest:So I went to –

00:51:09Guest:take a class at UCLA, which was... I don't know why they existed.

00:51:14Guest:But the teacher of that class was a very nice man who I also can't remember his name.

00:51:18Guest:That's welcome to my world.

00:51:19Guest:A TV writing class?

00:51:21Guest:It was a TV writing class.

00:51:22Guest:And he was working on a show called City that had just been picked up with Valerie Harper.

00:51:28Guest:And he wrote Crash...

00:51:31Guest:He was running the show.

00:51:33Guest:He was a comedy writer.

00:51:34Marc:Haggis.

00:51:35Guest:Paul Haggis.

00:51:36Guest:Yeah.

00:51:36Guest:So he said, well, come in and you guys just pitch a bunch of stories.

00:51:40Guest:And I said, all right.

00:51:40Guest:So we went in there and we pitched a bunch of stories, all which were absolutely just dreadful.

00:51:44Guest:Yeah.

00:51:46Guest:But we didn't know what the show was or anything like that.

00:51:47Guest:And Paul Haggis said, okay, well, look, take your pencil and if you can throw the pencil and it sticks in the ceiling, we'll hire you.

00:51:53Guest:Yeah.

00:51:54Guest:Which sounded, I didn't know anything about sitcom hazing at that point.

00:51:58Guest:I'm like, that sounds insane.

00:51:59Guest:And so 45 minutes later, everybody wanted to go to lunch.

00:52:01Guest:And he's like, that's fine.

00:52:02Guest:So we actually got a freelance script on Citi.

00:52:08Guest:And so by the time we got meetings with agencies, we had already been hired with something.

00:52:15Marc:So you had a thing.

00:52:16Marc:You did an episode of City.

00:52:17Guest:Right.

00:52:17Guest:And so from the time we wrote those spec scripts, the time we got on Roseanne was six months.

00:52:21Guest:And it was a very, it was a very quick.

00:52:23Marc:First season of Roseanne?

00:52:25Guest:No, it was third season.

00:52:26Guest:All right.

00:52:27Marc:So it was up and running and she was already huge.

00:52:29Guest:Yeah.

00:52:30Guest:She had just broken up with her husband.

00:52:32Guest:Original guy.

00:52:33Guest:the season before and fired everybody fired everybody that was there all the writers and they were starting fresh and Bob Meyer came in he was running the show and they had no women so they needed a cheap team of girls who was in the room Bob Meyer Chuck Lorre Jeff Abigoff

00:52:52Guest:Brad Isaac, Joel, Don Foster, and then me and Jennifer.

00:53:05Marc:And it was already like a machine.

00:53:06Guest:It was huge.

00:53:08Guest:We walked into like a huge show.

00:53:10Marc:Right, but the characters were defined?

00:53:13Yeah.

00:53:13Guest:It was an unbelievable first job.

00:53:15Marc:Yeah.

00:53:16Guest:It was so lucky.

00:53:17Guest:She had just done the national anthem when we got hired.

00:53:20Guest:So the first time I met her, we went over to the house that they were renting that later they were sued for trashing that house.

00:53:27Guest:It was in Brentwood somewhere.

00:53:28Guest:Her and Tom.

00:53:29Guest:Yeah.

00:53:29Guest:So we went over there and...

00:53:32Guest:The whole time they just had taped every new show that was talking about her and they were just watching.

00:53:40Guest:We just sat there and watched everybody trash her and trash her and trash her.

00:53:44Guest:And then she and Tom started finding it funny and they started fooling around and then they started making out and then he unzipped her pants and then we all got up and we left the house.

00:53:52Guest:And so that was my first introduction to Roseanne as a person.

00:53:56Marc:Like everybody abruptly got it.

00:53:58Guest:I love those moments with crazy people.

00:54:00Guest:It's time to leave.

00:54:02Marc:It used to happen with Sam up at Crestal.

00:54:03Marc:We're just sort of like, what's going on?

00:54:05Marc:Everyone just goes.

00:54:06Guest:Yeah, let's just go.

00:54:07Guest:We get it.

00:54:08Guest:We know it's going to happen.

00:54:09Guest:No goodbyes.

00:54:09Guest:We're fine.

00:54:10Guest:Thank you for the burger.

00:54:13Guest:But I will say, you know, going on to a show like that that had, as crazy as she was, what she brought to the table, nobody could bring to the table.

00:54:23Marc:Oh, she's fucking funny.

00:54:24Guest:And of such a clear point of view, such a clear who I am, what my story is.

00:54:32Guest:And then they surrounded her with John Goodman, Laurie Metcalf.

00:54:35Guest:I mean, it was just like, it was gold.

00:54:37Marc:But also like, you know, she, I think one of the great things about that thing is that she grew as a character.

00:54:43Marc:Completely.

00:54:44Marc:And like that just, it's not always the thing that happens.

00:54:47Marc:Yeah.

00:54:47Marc:As the kids grew, everybody grew.

00:54:50Guest:I will say they wouldn't do now what they did then.

00:54:53Guest:And they knew, for example, they knew John was the right husband for her.

00:54:58Guest:John was busy.

00:54:59Guest:He was doing Julius Caesar on the Old Globe, I think.

00:55:04Guest:And they had to wait.

00:55:05Guest:That's why it was a mid-season show.

00:55:07Guest:Because they could have cast somebody else, but it wouldn't.

00:55:10Guest:They needed to find somebody that would let her have the space to...

00:55:15Guest:To become an actress and yet not tamp down who she is.

00:55:20Guest:And they found between Laurie and John.

00:55:23Guest:Yeah.

00:55:24Guest:And you would see.

00:55:25Guest:Great actors.

00:55:26Guest:I mean, the best.

00:55:27Guest:Yeah.

00:55:27Guest:The best.

00:55:29Guest:They could make anything funny.

00:55:30Guest:Yeah.

00:55:30Guest:Anything funny.

00:55:31Guest:And it was just it was like a marvel to watch.

00:55:34Guest:It was also because.

00:55:35Guest:The mantra of the show was make the small big, make the big small.

00:55:38Guest:We weren't writing like they're all stuck in an elevator.

00:55:41Guest:We were writing like stories of family stories, like shit that really happened.

00:55:44Guest:And there was no, you need a certain amount of laughs per page.

00:55:48Guest:Just like let it happen.

00:55:50Guest:Let the scene happen.

00:55:51Guest:And if there's no laughs, there's no laughs.

00:55:52Guest:Is it interesting?

00:55:53Guest:Right.

00:55:53Guest:Great.

00:55:54Marc:Well, that's a kind of a... That must have been a fairly new thing.

00:55:57Marc:It was... Well, I mean, I guess, though, like, you know, with those 70s shows, like Mary Tyler Moore, Lou Grant, I mean, there were definitely serious episodes of comedies.

00:56:05Guest:There were serious episodes, but I don't think anything had...

00:56:09Guest:this level of just be first of all I mean just the look of right well family stuff was wrong it was completely different you know that they are a couple in love they still like to have sex yeah it's like that just the visual it's not Mary Tyler Moore it's not you know right and then also she had banned she had banned the studio in the network from the stage and

00:56:31Guest:For whatever reason.

00:56:32Guest:Right.

00:56:33Guest:So when I came in as a newbie, there were no notes.

00:56:38Guest:There was no way to table read.

00:56:39Guest:They were sent away.

00:56:40Guest:They were gone.

00:56:41Guest:Yeah.

00:56:41Guest:I never saw them.

00:56:42Guest:And we would have our table read and then we would go do our work.

00:56:45Guest:Yeah.

00:56:46Guest:And it was just like – it was like a weird –

00:56:49Guest:fucked up summer stock company because you were just doing the stuff.

00:56:53Marc:But that's nice.

00:56:54Marc:It is almost like theater.

00:56:55Marc:Everyone's involved.

00:56:56Marc:It's collaborative.

00:56:57Guest:It was the best until I went to a different show and I realized who are all these people sitting around and why are we listening to them?

00:57:02Guest:It's like, well, that's a studio network and they have opinions and I'm like, oh my God.

00:57:06Guest:Because I think if I had started with that, I don't know that I even would have been a writer because I didn't want to be a writer.

00:57:11Marc:So how long, how many seasons were you there?

00:57:13Guest:I was there four seasons.

00:57:14Guest:That's a lot.

00:57:14Guest:Yeah.

00:57:15Guest:I was there, I have, I have the record

00:57:18Guest:I think I have the record.

00:57:20Guest:Eric Gillan may have beat me by a bit, but I think I have the record.

00:57:23Marc:And why'd you leave?

00:57:24Guest:It was time.

00:57:25Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:57:28Guest:She once said, I will never have a woman run the show because it's no fun being mean to a woman.

00:57:36Guest:And everyone who ran the show at a certain point... Yeah.

00:57:40Guest:She turned on them and made their lives a living hell.

00:57:43Guest:Not the whole time.

00:57:44Guest:It was like there was a certain point toward the end of the season.

00:57:46Guest:She's like, and now.

00:57:48Guest:And then she would usually fire them.

00:57:50Guest:So it was sort of a, and I had different interactions with them.

00:57:55Guest:I wrote a pilot for them because they told me I had to.

00:57:58Marc:With Roseanne's production company?

00:57:59Guest:With Roseanne and Tom.

00:58:00Guest:Oh, my God.

00:58:01Guest:It was for En Vogue.

00:58:03Marc:Wow.

00:58:03Guest:It was insane.

00:58:05Guest:And then they broke up.

00:58:06Marc:So you stayed through all these different staffs.

00:58:08Marc:I mean, comics wrote at some point.

00:58:10Marc:Wasn't Alan Stevens in there?

00:58:12Guest:Yes.

00:58:12Guest:Alan Stevens was not my year.

00:58:13Guest:The year after me, I think, the year after I left, the staff started to get really big and she started to pull a lot of comics in.

00:58:22Marc:Was that the last season or the last couple?

00:58:25No.

00:58:25Guest:Well, no, I mean, I was 3, 4, 5, 6.

00:58:29Marc:But how long did it go on for?

00:58:30Guest:And then it went to 7, 8, 9, maybe?

00:58:34Guest:Oh, my God, really?

00:58:35Guest:Yeah, it went on.

00:58:36Guest:And then it went on to, like, we won the lottery and the train and Steven Seagal and blah, blah, blah.

00:58:41Guest:But it was... But I will say, like, I think it was...

00:58:45Guest:If I had been on any other show as my first job, I just don't know that I would have.

00:58:50Guest:Because writing inherently is not a fun job.

00:58:52Marc:I hate it.

00:58:53Marc:It's the worst.

00:58:53Marc:I hate it.

00:58:54Guest:It's depressing.

00:58:55Guest:It makes you feel bad.

00:58:56Marc:I hate being in a room.

00:58:57Marc:I hate being in front of a blank page.

00:58:58Guest:I agree.

00:58:59Guest:I agree.

00:58:59Guest:It's terrible.

00:59:00Guest:And I didn't like writer's rooms because at the time, writer's rooms were very male.

00:59:04Guest:And it wasn't even that I felt like, oh...

00:59:06Guest:it's so misogynistic.

00:59:07Guest:It was just like, it was just like a dirty, you know, like everyone sort of smelled weird.

00:59:13Guest:And, you know, everyone picked up the trades to go in the bathroom.

00:59:17Guest:And it's like, I just, Oh my God.

00:59:18Marc:Just like, just sit there for hours.

00:59:20Marc:Sometimes nothing happens.

00:59:21Guest:Just the worst.

00:59:22Guest:And I just, I was like eating,

00:59:24Guest:It was terrible.

00:59:25Guest:It's a terrible environment.

00:59:27Guest:I hated it.

00:59:28Marc:So after you leave, though, what do you just do?

00:59:32Marc:You're just around, just doing episodes here and there?

00:59:35Guest:Well, I wrote a couple pilots and not realizing that, you know, I always had sort of like a—

00:59:43Guest:I always felt like I was going to leave.

00:59:45Guest:I wasn't going to be a writer forever.

00:59:47Guest:So I always felt like, well, I'm not really this.

00:59:49Marc:What did you think you were going to do, dance?

00:59:50Guest:I don't know what I thought.

00:59:51Guest:I didn't... There was no... My family was not big on planning.

00:59:54Guest:We sort of fell into stuff.

00:59:55Marc:Yeah, I know that.

00:59:56Marc:I know that feeling.

00:59:57Guest:And so I kind of dicked around for a while and then I...

01:00:02Guest:Was on a couple of terrible shows that were just like – just painful to be a part of.

01:00:08Guest:Mostly because just – I just – the more I learned about the backstage part of it, the creepier it all got.

01:00:14Marc:It was just like – In what way?

01:00:17Well –

01:00:17Guest:You know, I was there when Les Moonves would come down and, you know, they'd go off and talk about, we're going to go get the Heidi girls.

01:00:26Guest:It's like, I don't, I really don't need, I just don't want to hear it.

01:00:29Guest:Do whatever you want to do.

01:00:30Guest:I just don't want to see it.

01:00:31Guest:You know, and the ugliness of, you know, I did a show and the woman, the creator was a female.

01:00:36Guest:She was sort of a playwright and then she did some movies and stuff like that.

01:00:40Guest:And she and another guy on the, started to have some sort of relationship.

01:00:45Guest:Yeah.

01:00:46Guest:And there was a lot of them going to Benihana's and I'm stuck with the room and then the studio coming to me and saying, so tell us what's going on with them.

01:00:55Guest:And I'm like, you know, I'm not, I'm just, I'm just in, I'm just writing terrible jokes in the other room.

01:01:00Guest:That's all you need me for.

01:01:01Guest:You don't need me to, I'm not spying.

01:01:02Guest:They would say, well, we need you to rewrite stuff behind their backs.

01:01:05Guest:I'm like, I'm not going to do that.

01:01:06Guest:Like, I just don't, please find someone else to do that shit.

01:01:09Guest:It's just not who I am.

01:01:11Guest:Right.

01:01:11Guest:But that's what the business was.

01:01:13Guest:It was kind of gross and ugly and I never – I was not a staff person.

01:01:20Marc:I needed to either – So did you like lose it?

01:01:23Guest:No, I just kept humping it and then I got on a show that I truly learned –

01:01:34Guest:what my limits were.

01:01:38Guest:And I was running a room and I lobbied for the job.

01:01:41Guest:It was called Veronica's Closet.

01:01:43Guest:And I lobbied for the job because I said, I've got to get that executive producer credit.

01:01:48Guest:I got it because I got to get my own show on the air.

01:01:50Guest:I've got to do it myself.

01:01:51Marc:So you knew that.

01:01:52Guest:I knew that.

01:01:53Guest:I knew that much.

01:01:54Guest:I said, if this is going to take, I got to be the one.

01:01:56Guest:I've got to hold the pencil.

01:01:57Guest:I can't be the person who feels like I can fix it and not be allowed to fix it.

01:02:01Marc:There's some real crazy on that show.

01:02:03Guest:Yes.

01:02:04Guest:And there was.

01:02:06Guest:And from many different... Ron Silver and Christy Alley.

01:02:10Guest:Oh, Ron Silver, who had his manager call me and said he doesn't... There was a joke about something in Yiddish, and his manager called me and said he does not want you to call him a Jew on the show.

01:02:21Guest:And I said, he played Alan Dershowitz.

01:02:24Guest:He got a fucking Oscar nomination as Alan Dershowitz.

01:02:28Guest:He's Ron Silver.

01:02:30Guest:Look at him.

01:02:31Guest:He's a Jew.

01:02:32Guest:What do we want me to call him?

01:02:34Guest:We want you to call him Armenian.

01:02:36Guest:And I'm like, okay, all right, that's great.

01:02:39Marc:Okay, so you get your executive producer credit, but what did you learn?

01:02:42Guest:It was horrible, but I didn't get to pick my staff.

01:02:47Guest:My staff was picked by the powers that be, and I had a room full of people who all wanted to be on Friends and who did not have any interest in writing on a show for

01:02:58Guest:Two women in their 40s who were not hot.

01:03:02Guest:And it was a constant litany of every pitch was a fat joke.

01:03:09Guest:And it was constant.

01:03:12Guest:And it was just like I had no control over the room because these people weren't loyal to me.

01:03:16Guest:They would all like stare next door because the friend's room was next door.

01:03:18Guest:Oh, wow.

01:03:19Guest:The cool room and the good kids were next door.

01:03:21Guest:I'm like, we're in the shit room.

01:03:22Guest:It was just like, it was like, this wasn't even my show.

01:03:25Guest:And I'm like, come on, cheerleading.

01:03:27Guest:And I later just recently found out that one of my writers was a serial rapist for 20 years.

01:03:33Guest:He's in jail.

01:03:34Marc:I know that guy, Eric.

01:03:35Guest:Eric Weinberg, yes, yes.

01:03:37Guest:And the weird thing about Eric is you could look at him and know he was a serial rapist.

01:03:41Marc:Yeah, I didn't know him that well, but I think he wrote on Bill Maher's show.

01:03:44Guest:Yes, he did.

01:03:45Marc:Right.

01:03:45Guest:He... Bye-bye.

01:03:47Marc:Yeah.

01:03:48Guest:No one misses you.

01:03:50Guest:Yeah.

01:03:50Guest:But it was that kind of... I mean, it was a toxic...

01:03:53Guest:You know, he was there and the young men worshipped him and they followed him and it was just like... Eric?

01:04:00Guest:Yeah, it was like an endless beating your head against a wall trying to make that show something good.

01:04:08Marc:And he was working against you.

01:04:09Guest:Well, the whole system was... Right.

01:04:11Guest:Frankly, the whole system was working against me.

01:04:13Marc:Yeah, because he was such a dick.

01:04:14Guest:He was a dick.

01:04:15Guest:But, you know, Kirstie is Kirstie and Kirstie had her own belief system and... Yeah.

01:04:19Yeah.

01:04:20Guest:They didn't appreciate that belief system, but they certainly knew who she was when they got into bed with her.

01:04:26Marc:They just thought, like, well, we've got this production company.

01:04:31Marc:We've got these names.

01:04:32Marc:People seem to be interested.

01:04:33Guest:And she was the biggest star.

01:04:34Guest:I mean, she's coming off of Cheers.

01:04:35Guest:Yeah.

01:04:35Guest:She was the biggest star.

01:04:36Guest:When Veronica's Closet went on the air, she was the highest paid person on television.

01:04:40Guest:Right.

01:04:41Guest:And God knows she's talented.

01:04:42Guest:Yeah.

01:04:43Guest:Yeah.

01:04:43Guest:She's so funny.

01:04:44Guest:Kathy and Jim, they were funny people.

01:04:46Guest:Daryl Mitchell was on that show.

01:04:48Guest:He was great.

01:04:49Guest:I mean, they were great people on the show.

01:04:50Guest:The show could have been, if anybody had given a shit, it could have been something really terrific.

01:04:57Guest:The talent was right there.

01:04:59Guest:And it drove me nuts that I'm the only one fighting for something that is even mine.

01:05:04Guest:And it got to the point where it felt like unless I was going to

01:05:12Guest:Be willing to break down and cry every single week.

01:05:15Guest:Yeah.

01:05:15Guest:This was not a this was not a I would come home.

01:05:18Guest:It's five o'clock in the morning.

01:05:19Guest:Yeah.

01:05:20Guest:Every night.

01:05:20Guest:Yeah.

01:05:21Guest:I'd get into bed and I'd cry.

01:05:22Guest:Yeah.

01:05:22Guest:And my husband would say, you've got to quit.

01:05:25Marc:Yeah.

01:05:25Guest:You've just got to quit.

01:05:26Guest:I can't.

01:05:27Marc:How long did that go on for?

01:05:28Guest:The whole year, the whole season.

01:05:29Guest:That's terrible.

01:05:30Guest:But I'm not a quitter.

01:05:30Guest:I didn't want to quit.

01:05:32Guest:And they didn't want to fire me.

01:05:33Marc:But that was the expectation, like, you know, that people would stay all night and then take abuse from executives.

01:05:38Guest:It was the worst.

01:05:39Guest:It was absolutely horrible.

01:05:40Guest:It was the worst experience of my life.

01:05:42Guest:And I will say, like, I thought David Crane was a delightful man.

01:05:46Guest:And I think he's very talented.

01:05:47Guest:And I appreciate any time that he was in the room.

01:05:50Guest:But they weren't in this room.

01:05:52Guest:And and I so I had people actively working against me outside of the room.

01:05:57Guest:I mean, they they literally hired my replacement midseason.

01:06:01Guest:I was in the trades and I'm showing up to work and I'm saying, like, you know, guys, could you hide it from me like a little bit?

01:06:09Guest:Because I'm still humping this show till five o'clock in the morning every fucking night.

01:06:13Guest:Could you maybe just pretend?

01:06:15Guest:Could you hold the announcement just like a month?

01:06:16Guest:It was just so awful.

01:06:19Guest:It's abusive.

01:06:19Guest:It was abusive.

01:06:20Guest:It was abusive.

01:06:21Guest:And it was the kind of thing where the first day I got the job, a couple of writers of other shows of theirs, not Veronica's Closet, but they had two other shows going.

01:06:31Guest:They took me out for drinks and they just told me, like, it's an evil place and it's horrible.

01:06:38Guest:And I wanted to not believe that.

01:06:40Guest:I wanted to say, look, let me have my own experience.

01:06:42Marc:What, all of the shows or just that one?

01:06:45Guest:The system.

01:06:46Marc:The umbrella.

01:06:47Marc:The system.

01:06:47Marc:Yes.

01:06:48Marc:Okay.

01:06:48Guest:The system was not a warm fuzzy system.

01:06:50Marc:Right.

01:06:51Marc:Sure.

01:06:51Guest:It was a system that you were going to have to like, you know, get some therapy.

01:06:55Marc:So this like, you know, upon your realization of, you know, what was going on behind the scenes, this was like the hitting of bottom.

01:07:02Yeah.

01:07:02Guest:It was.

01:07:03Guest:And I just thought, you know what?

01:07:04Guest:This is not for me.

01:07:05Guest:I don't want to be in this world.

01:07:08Guest:I don't like this world.

01:07:09Guest:I don't want to be in this room.

01:07:11Guest:I just started like sending them home and I would just finish the script by myself.

01:07:14Guest:And there were a couple of girls that were great.

01:07:17Guest:And they would sometimes stick around and help.

01:07:18Guest:But it was just it was easier for like.

01:07:20Guest:Get most of the joke pitching done.

01:07:22Guest:Send everybody home.

01:07:23Guest:And I would just sit there till 6 and I would just get it done.

01:07:25Guest:Because it was too ugly.

01:07:27Guest:It was too ugly.

01:07:28Guest:And then knowing that Friday was going to come.

01:07:30Guest:They were going to appear.

01:07:31Guest:They were going to see the run through.

01:07:33Guest:They were going to throw the script out.

01:07:35Guest:Because they threw it out every time we had a run through or everything like that.

01:07:38Guest:And then we were going to work all night again.

01:07:41Guest:And Friday night was the night that I was always called into the room to be told what I have done wrong in the week.

01:07:48Guest:And that's one particular Friday.

01:07:50Guest:I just said, look, if this is going to be one of those meetings, can we do it Monday morning?

01:07:54Guest:Because I've just got such a rewrite to do.

01:07:57Guest:And they said, OK, we'll see you Monday.

01:07:58Guest:And so Monday morning I came in and it happened on Monday.

01:08:00Guest:But like over that weekend, that was the weekend I decided, look, I can't.

01:08:04Guest:I'm not going to cry anymore.

01:08:05Guest:I'm not going to do this anymore.

01:08:07Guest:I'm not going to have somebody wait for me to cry, pick up a tissue box and hand it to me and go, we all cry here.

01:08:13Guest:It's like, why?

01:08:14Guest:We're doing fucking comedy.

01:08:16Guest:Why are we all crying here?

01:08:17Guest:It's a terrible thing to do.

01:08:19Guest:So I quit sitcom.

01:08:21Guest:I said to my husband, I can't do it anymore.

01:08:22Guest:And he says, great, don't do it.

01:08:24Guest:He was working on Family Guy.

01:08:26Guest:He goes, sit at home, figure out what you want to do.

01:08:28Guest:I sat at home and I wrote Gilmore Girls.

01:08:31Marc:That's what you did?

01:08:32Guest:Mm-hmm.

01:08:33Guest:I sat at home.

01:08:34Guest:Courtney Love was dating Edward Norton.

01:08:36Marc:Yeah.

01:08:36Guest:She was renting a place across the street from me, so I would just sit.

01:08:39Guest:I would sit at my couch, and at 3 o'clock, he would come up, and she would run out of the house.

01:08:44Marc:Was that like Whitley Hills or somewhere?

01:08:46Guest:Like the Larchmont area.

01:08:48Guest:Oh, okay.

01:08:49Guest:And then I would just sit there and watch them for...

01:08:51Guest:They seemed very happy together for a moment.

01:08:54Guest:And then I wrote Gilmore Girls.

01:08:56Guest:And he sold it with your husband?

01:09:00Marc:Or was that just you?

01:09:01Guest:That was just me.

01:09:02Guest:I went in for a meeting at the WB.

01:09:05Guest:And I said, I have this.

01:09:06Guest:And Susan, who had been trying to get me in there for a while.

01:09:11Guest:And I said, well, here's my pitches.

01:09:13Guest:Yeah.

01:09:14Guest:And I said, there's a mother and daughter and they're more like friends.

01:09:16Guest:She goes, I want that.

01:09:17Guest:Yeah.

01:09:18Guest:And I wanted it to be an hour.

01:09:19Guest:And I said, I don't, I'm a half hour.

01:09:21Guest:What are you, an hour?

01:09:21Guest:What is that?

01:09:22Guest:Just more pages?

01:09:23Guest:I'm like, what?

01:09:23Guest:It's single spacing.

01:09:25Guest:It's like, oh, that's, hours sounds really hard.

01:09:27Marc:It's a lot of pages.

01:09:28Guest:But fuck it.

01:09:28Guest:You know, it's, what did I know?

01:09:29Guest:I didn't know anything.

01:09:30Guest:So I sat at home and I wrote Gilmore Girls and I've had my own show.

01:09:34Marc:For a long time, a very popular show.

01:09:36Marc:Yeah, it was good.

01:09:36Marc:And it holds up.

01:09:38Guest:I guess so, because when it went on Netflix, that's actually when it really gained most of its audience.

01:09:44Guest:It always had like a fan base.

01:09:46Marc:How many seasons was it?

01:09:48Marc:Six?

01:09:49Guest:Six, seven seasons.

01:09:50Marc:Seven.

01:09:50Marc:Seven seasons.

01:09:51Guest:I wasn't there the last season, but it was seven seasons.

01:09:54Marc:But like, because I know I dated a woman who was obsessed with it, but I mean, she would watch it all day long.

01:09:58Guest:It happens a lot.

01:09:59Guest:And it's a very big cancer show.

01:10:02Guest:So I cannot tell you how many letters I got that said, I watched this with my mother while she was going through chemo.

01:10:08Guest:I mean, like stacks and stacks.

01:10:09Marc:Makes them feel better?

01:10:10Guest:I guess.

01:10:11Guest:And I would say to Lauren and Graham, and she would say, our motto should have been Gilmore Girls were bigger than cancer.

01:10:18Guest:Because she got the same things.

01:10:19Guest:It was a show that if anyone was going through cancer,

01:10:23Guest:Either medical or divorce or heartache or something.

01:10:28Guest:It was sort of the go-to comfort food for that.

01:10:31Guest:That's great.

01:10:32Guest:Which is, are you kidding?

01:10:33Guest:It's amazing.

01:10:34Guest:It's amazing that young people are still into a show where there's no social media, there's no cell phones until like midway through the show.

01:10:41Guest:There was no answering machines.

01:10:43Guest:Right.

01:10:43Guest:I think they had a pager, like a drug dealer that they walked around with so they could communicate a little bit.

01:10:48Guest:It was really— And Melissa McCarthy.

01:10:50Guest:And Melissa McCarthy, who took over for Alex Borstein, who was supposed to be Suki.

01:10:54Guest:No kidding.

01:10:55Marc:That was the way that happened?

01:10:56Marc:I think she told me that.

01:10:57Guest:Yeah.

01:10:58Guest:Yeah, but Mad TV wouldn't let her out.

01:10:59Marc:I just work with Melissa.

01:11:01Marc:I love her.

01:11:01Guest:Yeah.

01:11:02Guest:Melissa's very talented.

01:11:03Marc:So funny.

01:11:04Guest:Yeah.

01:11:04Marc:It's just like so funny.

01:11:05Guest:Yeah.

01:11:05Marc:She's one of those people that can be so immediately funny on purpose.

01:11:08Marc:It's baffling.

01:11:09Marc:Yeah.

01:11:10Marc:There's not many of them.

01:11:11Guest:But she's also, you know, like Alex, like she's somebody who has remarkable acting chops.

01:11:17Marc:Yeah.

01:11:18Guest:You know, and always had them.

01:11:19Guest:Like that's something that developed.

01:11:20Guest:Like she had them day one.

01:11:22Marc:Yeah.

01:11:23Marc:So that was a great run.

01:11:24Marc:So you landed.

01:11:25Marc:Yeah.

01:11:25Marc:So, but you clearly after that, you wanted to do more.

01:11:29Yeah.

01:11:29Guest:Well, what else am I going to do?

01:11:31Guest:I'm trained for nothing.

01:11:32Guest:I have no children.

01:11:32Guest:I don't either.

01:11:34Guest:I have nothing to do if I'm not working.

01:11:36Guest:There's just nothing.

01:11:37Marc:What else am I going to do?

01:11:38Marc:For me, it's like the idea of working.

01:11:41Marc:Is horrible?

01:11:42Marc:No, no, no.

01:11:42Marc:I mean, I do comedy.

01:11:43Marc:I do this.

01:11:44Marc:I do the acting gigs here and there.

01:11:46Marc:I do stuff.

01:11:47Marc:I work all the time.

01:11:48Marc:But the idea of getting involved with a TV show is a big fucking underpinning.

01:11:54Marc:It's huge.

01:11:54Marc:And it's like, that's going to be your life.

01:11:56Marc:That's it.

01:11:57Marc:Yes.

01:11:58Guest:Yeah.

01:11:58Guest:And it is your life.

01:11:59Guest:And if and if your life is and if that and if it's great, then your life is terrific.

01:12:04Guest:Right.

01:12:04Guest:It's horrible.

01:12:04Guest:Then your life is horrible.

01:12:05Guest:And but, you know, I was I've always sort of been able to like my whole career has been weird.

01:12:12Guest:Yeah.

01:12:12Guest:Like the one time I focused on something and said, I want this and went after it.

01:12:17Guest:Yeah.

01:12:18Guest:It was the worst time of my entire life.

01:12:20Guest:It was that job, that Veronica's closet job that forced me to give up.

01:12:25Marc:But you also knew that you needed something to get where you wanted to get.

01:12:29Marc:And you hadn't gotten it yet.

01:12:30Marc:You said that.

01:12:31Marc:You wanted the executive producer credit so you could have some... I thought that's what I needed.

01:12:35Guest:But I think actually what I needed was to stop doing sitcom.

01:12:40Guest:Because sitcom was not my future.

01:12:44Marc:Right, so the format of Gilmore Girls was something different.

01:12:46Marc:Was that what the dramedy?

01:12:48Guest:It was, I don't know what you call it.

01:12:49Guest:But an hour.

01:12:51Guest:But it didn't require the endless pitching in rooms.

01:12:54Marc:No joke, not joke to joke to joke.

01:12:56Guest:Yeah, it was just, and frankly, when Gilmore came on, the WB didn't quite know what to do with it because it didn't quite fit the Dawson's Creek thing.

01:13:04Guest:It wasn't Superman and it wasn't Buffy.

01:13:07Guest:It didn't really, and the star was a 32-year-old woman, which was way out of their demographic at that time.

01:13:13Guest:If you were menstruating, they had no interest in you.

01:13:18Guest:They really wanted them young.

01:13:19Guest:So it was just sort of like... But there was something about just being able to write...

01:13:24Guest:something that was purely like whatever I wanted to do.

01:13:29Guest:And, and because Gilmore came in, Gilmore came in under the radar that paid nothing for it.

01:13:33Guest:They sent us off to Canada.

01:13:35Guest:They had bigger problems.

01:13:36Guest:They had a couple of those big Bruckheimer shows or something that were blowing up all over the place.

01:13:40Guest:And, and by the time they paid attention to Gilmore, uh,

01:13:45Guest:And we got a lovely review.

01:13:48Guest:I mean they just didn't really focus on it.

01:13:52Guest:And then they started to focus on it and there was a little bit of bullshit back and forth.

01:13:55Guest:The normal stuff where they call you at the beginning before you've premiered and they say, oh, we just want you to know we're very –

01:14:02Guest:The network's very angry and disappointed.

01:14:04Guest:And I said, well, I don't know what to tell you.

01:14:06Guest:I'm sorry about that.

01:14:07Guest:Would you like to call my mother?

01:14:08Guest:You two can commiserate.

01:14:09Guest:Have a lovely conversation.

01:14:11Guest:And it happened quite a bit.

01:14:13Guest:And then finally I said, look, you guys, you can fire me.

01:14:15Guest:I'm happy to be fired.

01:14:18Guest:Or you can never call me again.

01:14:20Guest:Because what I can't do, I just know.

01:14:22Marc:I'm not going to be abused.

01:14:24Guest:It's a blanket.

01:14:25Guest:I understand you're angry and disappointed.

01:14:26Guest:Just know the message has been received.

01:14:28Guest:But you have many different ways you can go.

01:14:31Guest:So just tell me what it is.

01:14:33Guest:And they kind of went away for a while.

01:14:35Guest:And then we got a beautiful review in the Times and they sent me flowers.

01:14:40Guest:And that was it.

01:14:40Guest:And I never heard from them again.

01:14:41Guest:It was great.

01:14:42Guest:And they didn't give me notes because they didn't.

01:14:44Marc:So you didn't hear from them again?

01:14:45Guest:Never heard from them again.

01:14:46Guest:Five years?

01:14:47Guest:No.

01:14:47Guest:Six years?

01:14:47Guest:Nothing.

01:14:48Nothing.

01:14:48Guest:it was complete.

01:14:49Guest:It was great.

01:14:50Guest:Complete science.

01:14:50Guest:We just worked in a very tiny, our own little vacuum.

01:14:54Guest:We took over the back lot.

01:14:55Guest:Yeah.

01:14:55Guest:We walked around, walked those girls around circles in Burbank.

01:14:58Guest:Yeah.

01:14:59Guest:And then, uh,

01:15:01Guest:And that was the right atmosphere for me.

01:15:03Guest:Just, like, complete megalomania.

01:15:06Guest:Just a very, like, don't bother me.

01:15:10Guest:If you don't like it, tell me to go away.

01:15:12Guest:I will leave quietly.

01:15:15Marc:But otherwise, I just really— Well, what did happen with the last season?

01:15:18Guest:Well, the last season, our contract was up.

01:15:20Marc:Yeah.

01:15:21Guest:And we were very burnt out because we had been writing every script.

01:15:27Marc:After five or six?

01:15:28Guest:We were six.

01:15:29Guest:We were doing six seasons.

01:15:30Guest:And we went to Warner Brothers and we said, we would like...

01:15:36Guest:We don't need more money ourselves, but we need more writers and we need a directing producer on set.

01:15:43Guest:Yeah.

01:15:43Guest:We need that.

01:15:43Guest:We just have to have that.

01:15:45Marc:If we're going to do another one.

01:15:46Guest:Yeah.

01:15:47Guest:And they said no.

01:15:48Marc:Yeah.

01:15:48Guest:Because they were used to us doing everything.

01:15:50Guest:Yeah.

01:15:50Guest:And we were kind of like, okay, well... Yeah.

01:15:52Guest:Okay.

01:15:53Guest:And we left.

01:15:53Guest:And we left and they had another season and...

01:15:56Guest:I've never seen it, but Lauren Graham would call me once a week and say, I just want to read to you what I'm saying this week.

01:16:02Guest:Because Lauren's character was a character everybody was afraid of.

01:16:07Guest:They were afraid to write that character, and I don't know why.

01:16:10Guest:Lauren Graham is smart and sharp, and it's not a mystery what she's good at.

01:16:16Guest:So I never quite understood that.

01:16:18Marc:And she couldn't understand what the new writers were doing?

01:16:20Guest:No.

01:16:20Guest:Because she was setting up for everybody else.

01:16:22Guest:They made her like the straight man.

01:16:23Guest:You know, she was Judd Hirsch.

01:16:24Marc:Yeah.

01:16:25Guest:And everybody else was, you know... Because that's what they knew how to do.

01:16:28Guest:Yeah.

01:16:29Marc:So after that...

01:16:30Marc:There's just a couple more.

01:16:32Marc:What happened to the return of Jezebel James?

01:16:34Guest:Oh, my God.

01:16:35Guest:Well, the last strike happened.

01:16:37Guest:I went to New York.

01:16:38Marc:Because that was like Parker Posey, right?

01:16:39Guest:That was Parker Posey and Lauren Ambrose.

01:16:42Guest:Two unbelievably talented people.

01:16:45Guest:But they work so differently.

01:16:48Guest:Like, that was not a match made.

01:16:50Guest:Because Parker, I don't know if you've ever met Parker.

01:16:52Guest:Yeah, I did.

01:16:53Guest:Parker is all...

01:16:55Guest:Yes.

01:16:58Guest:Right.

01:16:58Guest:And Parker will sometimes like she would be rehearsing and she would stop and she wouldn't tell you why she was stopping.

01:17:03Guest:Yeah.

01:17:03Guest:And she would just you would see her mind working and then she would just go back.

01:17:07Guest:Yeah.

01:17:07Guest:And start at some point in without telling anybody.

01:17:10Guest:So nobody knew where they were supposed to be.

01:17:12Guest:But that was just her very present thing.

01:17:14Guest:Yeah.

01:17:14Guest:She was just like this.

01:17:15Marc:Yeah.

01:17:16Guest:A lot of headstands.

01:17:17Guest:Yeah.

01:17:17Guest:Cried every day at four o'clock.

01:17:19Guest:Yeah.

01:17:19Guest:Every day at four o'clock she'd, I'd have to hold, I've never held anyone so much in my life.

01:17:23Guest:I'd just cry.

01:17:23Guest:It's like, oh, it's four.

01:17:24Guest:Okay.

01:17:25Guest:She was just very like, you know, and Lauren is very, but why?

01:17:30Guest:But why?

01:17:31Marc:Yeah.

01:17:31Guest:But why is that funny?

01:17:32Guest:Right.

01:17:33Marc:But why am I doing it that way?

01:17:34Marc:Well, it seems like if you see them as characters.

01:17:36Marc:Yeah.

01:17:36Marc:That they should work.

01:17:37Marc:But this is who they were.

01:17:39Guest:It's people.

01:17:39Guest:Right.

01:17:39Guest:And both so talented.

01:17:41Guest:Yeah.

01:17:41Guest:And if they could have found a way to,

01:17:44Guest:to zhuzh together.

01:17:45Guest:I think it could have been really great.

01:17:47Guest:But the writer's strike happened.

01:17:48Guest:And then it was sort of like, we're done.

01:17:51Marc:And then it just disappears.

01:17:52Guest:Yeah.

01:17:53Guest:And then we went on the line and we walked around with signs.

01:17:55Marc:And then Bunheads was for your mom?

01:17:57Bunheads.

01:17:59Marc:That's where you got your dancing thing in?

01:18:02Guest:I got the dancing thing in.

01:18:03Guest:I got to work with Sutton Foster, who is my dream and my everything.

01:18:09Guest:I love her so much.

01:18:10Guest:And it was a hot second of, like, literally, I gave Capizios my credit card and said, just keep the shoes coming.

01:18:17Guest:Because we had, talk about no money.

01:18:19Guest:Like, nothing.

01:18:21Guest:Nothing at all.

01:18:21Marc:Who was it for?

01:18:22Guest:It was for ABC Family.

01:18:24Guest:which does not exist anymore.

01:18:25Guest:They're called Freeform now.

01:18:26Marc:And it was a dance class, a dance school show.

01:18:29Guest:Yeah, it was about a dance class, a dance school.

01:18:33Marc:So you're going to ABC Family.

01:18:34Marc:You made a fortune off of Gilmore Girls.

01:18:36Marc:You're a big hit.

01:18:36Marc:You can do whatever you want.

01:18:37Marc:And then this was a passion project?

01:18:39Marc:Or you thought, like, what?

01:18:40Marc:You knew?

01:18:41Guest:I just need to do my shit.

01:18:42Guest:All right.

01:18:43Guest:I don't want a deal.

01:18:44Guest:Like, deals freak me out.

01:18:45Marc:Right, right, right.

01:18:46Guest:I don't want to... Like, we're under a deal now at Amazon, and although... Are we?

01:18:50Guest:I don't know, because I think they're getting rid of all their deals now because of the strike, but we were under a deal.

01:18:54Marc:But you're done with... This is the end of Maisel, right?

01:18:57Guest:I know, but we were under a deal.

01:18:58Guest:Okay, okay.

01:18:58Guest:So, like, the thing is, when you're under a deal, you owe them your blood and your life.

01:19:02Guest:Okay.

01:19:02Guest:And I just sort of, like...

01:19:05Marc:So you don't – it's a matter of the work.

01:19:07Guest:Yeah.

01:19:08Guest:Yeah.

01:19:08Guest:I mean, look, I don't – I've made delightful money.

01:19:12Guest:I have a very comfortable lifestyle.

01:19:14Guest:I live in New York.

01:19:15Guest:It's all I ever wanted to do was live in New York.

01:19:18Guest:So I don't – like I said, when you don't have kids, that's a huge financial burden.

01:19:22Guest:What was that choice?

01:19:23Guest:I just sort of felt like the madness needed to stop with me.

01:19:27Guest:I feel like it was time to sort of break the cycle.

01:19:30Guest:I don't know.

01:19:31Guest:I think that what I do is very narcissistic.

01:19:35Guest:It's very much what I need.

01:19:38Guest:And you like doing it.

01:19:38Guest:And you're immersed.

01:19:40Guest:And I just don't know how great I would be.

01:19:43Marc:Right.

01:19:44Guest:Responsible for another human.

01:19:46Marc:Right.

01:19:47Marc:Well, I mean, that's sort of the issue that Maisel has.

01:19:49Guest:Yeah.

01:19:50Marc:And what she got criticized for.

01:19:51Guest:Yeah.

01:19:52Guest:I mean, completely.

01:19:53Guest:I mean, we.

01:19:54Marc:But people just had him then.

01:19:55Guest:Rachel and I talked about this because I, you know, were and God love Rachel because she's so brave.

01:20:02Guest:Yeah.

01:20:02Guest:She didn't give a shit.

01:20:03Guest:Yeah.

01:20:03Guest:Like she was surprised as I was that it was such an issue.

01:20:07Guest:But she felt like, well, yes, this woman is a complete narcissist.

01:20:10Guest:It's got to be.

01:20:11Guest:And if you want to reach the height she wanted to reach, you got to leave home.

01:20:15Marc:Yeah.

01:20:16Guest:You can't take the kids with you.

01:20:17Marc:So where are we at?

01:20:18Marc:It's almost over, right?

01:20:19Guest:Then it's done.

01:20:20Marc:Okay.

01:20:20Guest:It's hard.

01:20:21Guest:It's bad.

01:20:21Marc:Well, it's like family, right?

01:20:23Guest:This cast.

01:20:24Marc:Yeah, Shaloup's so sweet.

01:20:26Guest:It was, we had a weird bonding.

01:20:30Guest:Yeah.

01:20:31Guest:Like a really, like after five years, we never, there was no, I've had enough of you.

01:20:36Guest:Yeah.

01:20:37Guest:And when the word came down, it was very hard.

01:20:41Guest:Like we were very.

01:20:41Marc:What do you mean it came down?

01:20:43Guest:That it was last year.

01:20:44Marc:But who said that?

01:20:45Marc:You?

01:20:46Marc:No.

01:20:47Marc:Oh, no shit.

01:20:48Guest:No, it wasn't me.

01:20:48Guest:But things come to an end.

01:20:51Guest:I understand that.

01:20:52Marc:But I thought it was so successful.

01:20:54Guest:Yeah, but, you know, there's orcs to pay for.

01:20:56Guest:There's a lot of orcs running around.

01:20:58Guest:They got to pay for the orcs.

01:21:00Guest:Maisel was a very expensive show by the end.

01:21:02Guest:It was very... I mean, all those bells and whistles cost.

01:21:06Guest:You know, doing period shows are very expensive.

01:21:08Guest:It's not just...

01:21:09Guest:It's not just the cars and the dresses and the sets.

01:21:14Guest:It's all the work afterwards taking out all the modern stuff.

01:21:17Guest:Yes.

01:21:18Guest:I mean, the special effects.

01:21:19Guest:You wouldn't think we were a special effects show.

01:21:21Guest:We got no dragons.

01:21:22Marc:But aside from that, like, okay, you know, granted, you've been on shows that have gone on multiple years.

01:21:29Marc:And, you know, even Gilmore Girls after six.

01:21:31Marc:I mean, it sounds like in other words, it could have been done.

01:21:37Marc:So is there a part of you that feels like you've told this story?

01:21:40Guest:Well, once we knew, we looked at that fifth season very differently.

01:21:47Guest:And we had a fifth season planned that was not this fifth season.

01:21:51Guest:It was a fifth season that was...

01:21:53Marc:Sure.

01:21:53Guest:To go on.

01:21:54Marc:Well, I mean, you had decades that you could have gone on.

01:21:58Marc:This show could have ended up with the beginning of Hacks.

01:22:00Marc:Yeah.

01:22:02Guest:And she turns into, after some terrible plastic surgery, she's taller.

01:22:06Marc:Well, you know what I mean.

01:22:07Marc:She could have gone through generations of comedy.

01:22:11Marc:Yeah.

01:22:12Guest:We touched on that in the fifth season.

01:22:17Guest:But we looked at the fifth season like, okay, let's land the plane.

01:22:21Guest:Let's land it.

01:22:22Guest:Because halfway through the fifth season, people started saying, well, I mean, what about our reboot?

01:22:27Guest:I'm like, oh my God, just let me land the plane.

01:22:31Guest:Let me make sure that...

01:22:33Guest:If people liked the show and if people watched the show, that at the end they feel like their journey was fulfilled.

01:22:40Marc:That's close.

01:22:40Marc:Yeah, absolutely.

01:22:41Guest:That was very important to me.

01:22:43Guest:Oh, great.

01:22:44Guest:That's good.

01:22:45Guest:Yeah.

01:22:45Guest:I was very lucky.

01:22:49Guest:My whole career I've been very lucky.

01:22:50Guest:I fell into this.

01:22:52Guest:Yeah.

01:22:52Guest:I didn't seek it out.

01:22:54Guest:And I...

01:22:56Guest:And I've worked with such great people and I'm just very lucky.

01:23:02Guest:I'm so lucky to be where I am right now.

01:23:04Guest:And as sad as I am too.

01:23:07Guest:And also we were like, we were going to like do a panel on Monday and we were all going to be back together again.

01:23:11Guest:And then it's like.

01:23:12Guest:And we're on strike.

01:23:13Guest:And it's like, and we're not there.

01:23:14Guest:So it's a bummer.

01:23:16Guest:And I miss them desperately.

01:23:18Guest:I just miss seeing them every single day.

01:23:20Guest:But I had something that a lot of people go their whole career and they don't have.

01:23:25Guest:So I'm super lucky.

01:23:28Marc:That's great.

01:23:29Marc:Well, I'm sad, but I'm also happy.

01:23:31Marc:It sounds like a bittersweet thing.

01:23:32Marc:Now, what do you think of Broadway?

01:23:38Guest:I am worried about Broadway.

01:23:41Yeah.

01:23:42Marc:But I mean, what do you think about doing Broadway?

01:23:45Guest:I would love to do Broadway.

01:23:46Guest:Broadway is, and I've toyed with it.

01:23:49Guest:I've stepped my foot into it.

01:23:51Marc:It feels like it's where you should go.

01:23:53Guest:I want to.

01:23:55Marc:But not in a bad way.

01:23:56Guest:Well, I want to do it.

01:23:57Marc:It sounds like you have, it feels like you have a Broadway show in you.

01:24:02Guest:Well, thank you.

01:24:03Guest:I need to clear out – you need to clear stuff out because Broadway takes decades.

01:24:09Guest:It takes so long to mount a Broadway show.

01:24:12Guest:And there's so much work that goes into it.

01:24:15Guest:And I'm not afraid of that work.

01:24:17Guest:It's just I haven't – Broadway is not something you slip in in between seasons.

01:24:21Guest:Broadway is something you turn to and you go, okay, I'm here.

01:24:24Guest:I'm down.

01:24:25Guest:I'm good.

01:24:25Guest:You can build this thing.

01:24:26Guest:Yeah.

01:24:27Guest:So I'm –

01:24:28Guest:I'm thinking about it.

01:24:29Guest:I'm tipping my toe into a little something now.

01:24:33Guest:I love live theater more than anything.

01:24:36Guest:I just think there's nothing like it, and it's great.

01:24:38Guest:And I worry that I want Broadway to come back full force.

01:24:43Guest:It's still not back yet.

01:24:45Guest:It's not back yet.

01:24:45Guest:The audiences aren't back.

01:24:47Guest:Everything's not back yet.

01:24:48Guest:Yeah, sure.

01:24:48Guest:And Broadway, there's no – like, you know, you need butts in seats.

01:24:51Guest:You need people to come and sit.

01:24:52Marc:Yeah, yeah, and get these sort of amusement park ride shows.

01:24:55Guest:Yeah.

01:24:55Guest:It's – and a lot of, like, the smaller, more interesting shows get shoved out still, you know.

01:25:02Guest:So I'm glad that they – I think they figured out a way for the Tonys to go on because the Tonys –

01:25:09Guest:unlike the Emmys and the Oscars, the Tonys are their lifeblood because Tonys can save a show because people will watch a performance and go, oh, that looks interesting.

01:25:20Guest:I'll go see that.

01:25:21Guest:It's not the same for the others.

01:25:24Guest:So it literally saves lives and careers and shows.

01:25:28Guest:And Beetlejuice was failing and they went on the Tonys and they...

01:25:35Guest:Had a huge... Good run.

01:25:37Guest:Good.

01:25:37Guest:And then suddenly they're like packed and people are coming to see it.

01:25:41Guest:So it's a life of death thing.

01:25:42Guest:So they're doing the Tonys this year.

01:25:44Guest:I think that's important.

01:25:45Guest:It's really, really great.

01:25:46Guest:It's a great... And theater people are the best.

01:25:49Marc:Yeah, sure.

01:25:49Guest:Because they work harder than anybody else in the entire world.

01:25:52Marc:And it's all so immediate.

01:25:54Guest:Yeah.

01:25:55Guest:Yeah.

01:25:55Guest:And it's different every time.

01:25:56Guest:I mean, there's something... It's interesting like watching comedy on Netflix and things because it's...

01:26:03Guest:It's fun to do, but it's not sitting in a club where something can go wrong.

01:26:07Guest:Sure.

01:26:08Guest:And it was interesting when the latest Chris Rock special, and I've since heard that maybe they've fixed it, but when he... Everything was driving toward this one joke.

01:26:18Marc:And it didn't go.

01:26:18Guest:And he...

01:26:20Marc:Fucked it up.

01:26:20Marc:They fucked it up.

01:26:21Marc:Yeah, I mean, I didn't watch it, yeah.

01:26:22Guest:There was something kind of great about that moment.

01:26:24Guest:Sure.

01:26:24Guest:Because it reminded you, oh, wait a minute, this is a live animal.

01:26:28Marc:Man, people used to tank all the time.

01:26:29Guest:Yep.

01:26:30Marc:Like, you know, it used to be something to watch.

01:26:32Marc:It's like that story you told about that guy who was, you know, sweet at the beginning of the night, but by the time he went on, it was a fucking disaster.

01:26:39Guest:It's great.

01:26:40Guest:I mean, there's a sense of danger in theater.

01:26:41Guest:There's a sense of danger in comedy.

01:26:43Guest:The sense of danger is something that, you know, when you do TV, when you do movies, you can...

01:26:47Guest:You can get rid of the danger.

01:26:48Marc:Of course, yeah.

01:26:49Guest:And the danger's fun.

01:26:51Marc:Well, I hope you do something.

01:26:52Guest:Well, we'll see.

01:26:53Marc:Nice talking to you.

01:26:54Guest:Thank you for having me.

01:27:01Marc:Okay, there you go.

01:27:02Marc:That was exciting, lively.

01:27:04Marc:The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel comes to an end tomorrow night, May 26th on Prime Video.

01:27:10Marc:You can watch all five seasons now.

01:27:12Marc:Hang out for a minute, will ya?

01:27:16Marc:Folks, we've got a special treat this week for Full Marin listeners.

01:27:19Marc:We pulled out some old segments of the show that not a lot of people have heard with guests that made people at the time say, what the fuck?

01:27:27Guest:Were the ends well-defined or were they blobby?

01:27:30Marc:The ends, I don't spend a lot of time looking at it.

01:27:34Marc:Maybe should I look at it and call you back?

01:27:37Guest:No, no.

01:27:38Guest:You can just try to remember it.

01:27:40Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:27:40Guest:It was good.

01:27:41Guest:The more you talk about it, the better.

01:27:42Marc:I pinched it off, and it had a nice tail on it.

01:27:48Marc:Okay.

01:27:49Marc:Was it fluffy with ragged edges, the tail?

01:27:51Marc:This is getting me a little uncomfortable.

01:27:52Marc:I mean, I'm playing along here.

01:27:54Marc:Okay, so now we're on the sixth question about the shit.

01:28:00Guest:That's what people who are homebound have to talk about.

01:28:04Guest:And that is also very common.

01:28:06Guest:That's basically what unites us.

01:28:07Marc:Hey, man.

01:28:08Marc:You're okay.

01:28:09Marc:You cool?

01:28:10Marc:You're cool.

01:28:10Marc:I mean, you're cool.

01:28:12Wow.

01:28:14Guest:Fuck.

01:28:15Marc:Yeah.

01:28:17Marc:Fuck.

01:28:20Marc:All right.

01:28:21Marc:Just breathe, dude.

01:28:23Marc:Just breathe, bro.

01:28:25Marc:Hey, man.

01:28:26Marc:I can only breathe out.

01:28:28Marc:No, no, no.

01:28:28Marc:You can just pull in.

01:28:30Marc:Pull in.

01:28:31Marc:Pull in.

01:28:32Marc:No, no, just pull in.

01:28:33Marc:Yeah.

01:28:34Marc:No, no, no.

01:28:34Marc:Now do both.

01:28:35Marc:One or the other.

01:28:36Marc:Okay.

01:28:38Marc:All right.

01:28:39Marc:Yes, Senor Juarez, do you have a question for me or El Chupacabra?

01:28:45Guest:Why don't you believe in God?

01:28:47Marc:Because I just don't find that I have a need to believe in God.

01:28:52Guest:What happened when you died?

01:28:54Marc:Nothing.

01:28:58Marc:Wow.

01:28:58Marc:Is he all right?

01:29:00Guest:Hello?

01:29:01Guest:Hello?

01:29:03Guest:Oh, that's a shame.

01:29:05Guest:I think Singer Juara just found out what was about to happen to him.

01:29:10Marc:We've had our first death on the air by caller on a show that has never taken calls before.

01:29:14Marc:This is a tremendous experience.

01:29:15Marc:Oh.

01:29:15Marc:I recorded some of my thoughts and memories of those clips as well.

01:29:19Marc:These were things that only happened during the first year of the show and only about a dozen times to hear that bonus episode.

01:29:24Marc:Plus all the weekly bonus material, as well as all WTF episodes add free, click on the link in the episode description to sign up for the full Marin on WTF plus.

01:29:34Marc:You can also go to WTF pod.com and click on the WTF plus tab at the top of the page.

01:29:41Marc:All right, put a will together.

01:29:44Marc:Get your ass checked.

01:29:46Marc:My new record.

01:29:47Marc:Here's some guitar.

01:30:05guitar solo

01:30:28guitar solo

01:30:58guitar solo

01:31:27Marc:Boomer lives.

01:31:37Marc:Monkey.

01:31:38Marc:La Fonda.

01:31:39Marc:Cat angels everywhere, alright?

01:31:41Marc:Alright?