Episode 1433 - Rachel Weisz

Episode 1433 • Released May 8, 2023 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening how's it going where are we at today what's going on so look listen to me

00:00:22Marc:Rachel Weisz is here today.

00:00:25Marc:And I got to tell you, well, you know, she's the Oscar winner.

00:00:29Marc:Multiple Oscar nominee, multiple times.

00:00:33Marc:She's been in The Constant Gardener, The Favorite, The Mummy movies, Black Widow.

00:00:39Marc:She's been on stage in London and New York.

00:00:42Marc:And she's in this new series on Prime Video, Dead Ringers, based on the David Cronenberg movie, where she plays twin sister gynecologist.

00:00:53Marc:And it's a doozy, man.

00:00:55Marc:It's a fucking brain-bending, mind-blower, gnarly miniseries or limited series, they call it now.

00:01:05Marc:Not to remind people of what television used to be like by calling it a miniseries.

00:01:10Marc:The limited series.

00:01:11Marc:Limited makes it sound much more exclusive, much more fancy, much more high-brow.

00:01:18Marc:It's a limited series, not a miniseries.

00:01:21Marc:That's some miniseries.

00:01:22Marc:That's like old-timey NBC stuff.

00:01:24Marc:This is a limited series, artisanal.

00:01:28Marc:We made it special with special people.

00:01:34Marc:That is true in this case, and in many cases, true stuff.

00:01:39Marc:So look, before I get into my insane reactions to that limited series,

00:01:50Marc:dead ringers before I borderline make a fool out of myself in front of Rachel, trying to explain my reactions.

00:02:01Marc:Let's talk about other things.

00:02:04Marc:I flew down to Florida to spend time with my mommy.

00:02:11Marc:My brother lives down there.

00:02:13Marc:So I was able to, to kind of hang out with family and,

00:02:19Marc:I had some realizations.

00:02:20Marc:Now, my brother, I've known a long time or all our lives.

00:02:24Marc:I've known my brother and he's an intense guy as well.

00:02:29Marc:Not as funny as me.

00:02:30Marc:I would say he's probably not as funny as me.

00:02:32Marc:He's probably a little more thoughtful in general and probably a little more looking for the thing.

00:02:41Marc:My bro has always been looking for the thing.

00:02:43Marc:I mean, I look for the thing, but it's usually in a buffet situation.

00:02:49Marc:I don't look for the big thing.

00:02:50Marc:I don't look for the big answer.

00:02:53Marc:I don't look for the big piece.

00:02:55Marc:I look for a lot of little pieces that I can either dip in sauce or just eat on their own.

00:03:01Marc:But Craig, my brother, he was a tennis guy all the way through my life.

00:03:06Marc:That's where we parted ways.

00:03:08Marc:I don't know how...

00:03:10Marc:You're kind of moving along with your brother or your sister or your sibling.

00:03:15Marc:And it seems to be, you know, even like if you're older, they're taking a little bit of a beating.

00:03:20Marc:They're a little bit in your shadow.

00:03:22Marc:But we are kind of, you know, on a level playing field with the tennis.

00:03:26Marc:at some point, went to tennis camp.

00:03:29Marc:And then at some point in tennis camp, it was just sort of like, all right, well, this is over.

00:03:34Marc:You know, it's like I'm done playing because I guess he just beat me again.

00:03:40Marc:So he went on to sort of

00:03:43Marc:commit his life to tennis in a lot of ways.

00:03:45Marc:He went to Nick Boletari's Tennis Institute.

00:03:48Marc:He was ranked in doubles in his teens.

00:03:51Marc:And he went into business after college, created a tennis school.

00:03:56Marc:He's an athlete, my brother.

00:04:00Marc:Meanwhile, I was busy investigating cigarettes and

00:04:04Marc:Jack Daniels, uh, you know, bad friends.

00:04:08Marc:And then we somehow over the years met, we came around, you know, we, we met back in the middle.

00:04:13Marc:Like I never got involved with athletics really, but he did get involved with, uh, with the, with the bad stuff.

00:04:20Marc:And that's where we meet at the bad stuff, but also all the good stuff.

00:04:23Marc:We're very similar.

00:04:24Marc:So all this to say, my brother has been, uh, in a cult, uh,

00:04:32Marc:I know it's been a while now.

00:04:34Marc:I think when he was originally, he might be one of, not the original members of the cult, but certainly second or third generation cult member of this cult.

00:04:43Marc:And it's a bit of a concern, but I'm not totally freaked out.

00:04:48Marc:And I guess I should just tell you what it is to kind of get everybody aware.

00:04:53Marc:It's the cult of pickleball.

00:04:56Marc:My brother is in the pickleball cult.

00:05:00Marc:Now, look, it was a natural progression.

00:05:03Marc:He was a tennis player.

00:05:04Marc:He's now in his 50s.

00:05:06Marc:So, you know, pickleball just seems like, hey, I'll just give it a try.

00:05:10Marc:And then it's kind of all you talk about.

00:05:14Marc:And it's your social life.

00:05:17Marc:And it's a, I'm not going to say it's a problem.

00:05:21Marc:But the way he presented it to me,

00:05:25Marc:When he was telling me about it, I went down to Florida.

00:05:29Marc:I knew he was involved, but I didn't know that we might need to do an intervention.

00:05:35Marc:Because, like, I don't really know what pickleball is, but I saw some videos.

00:05:39Marc:I'm like, oh, I kind of get it.

00:05:40Marc:It's like miniature tennis with a wiffle ball and bigger, different paddles.

00:05:47Marc:And it looks like anybody can kind of play it.

00:05:49Marc:And that's where Craig was, my brother, was telling me, like, well, he wants to get into it on a business level in some capacity.

00:05:55Marc:I don't need to go into that.

00:05:56Marc:But he was telling me that, you know, he gave me the whole lowdown, man.

00:05:59Marc:It's different, man.

00:06:00Marc:This is a sport that's sweeping the nation.

00:06:02Marc:Everyone can play it.

00:06:03Marc:Anyone can play it.

00:06:03Marc:All ages.

00:06:04Marc:You don't have to have any skill set.

00:06:05Marc:You can sort of just pick it up and kind of play.

00:06:09Marc:So it's like it's never going to go away.

00:06:10Marc:Millions of people into it, sweeping the planet.

00:06:13Marc:Pickleball, baby.

00:06:14Marc:So this is the business pitch.

00:06:16Marc:And then he's like, you got to try it.

00:06:17Marc:And then he's like, come on, man.

00:06:18Marc:Like, we're hanging out.

00:06:21Marc:Me and my brother, we're at his house in Florida.

00:06:23Marc:We walk the dog on the beach.

00:06:25Marc:You know, we talk about it a little bit on the way to the beach and we talk about other stuff.

00:06:28Marc:Then we talk about the dog and we're, you know, walking the dog and then he's on the phone, do business.

00:06:35Marc:Then we get back to his house and his girlfriend comes home, her daughter's there.

00:06:39Marc:And then like, I don't know, all of a sudden it's like, we're going to go play pickleball.

00:06:42Marc:And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:06:44Marc:Wait, I didn't agree to anything.

00:06:46Marc:I didn't agree to the secret meeting.

00:06:48Marc:I didn't agree to get involved.

00:06:50Marc:It's like, come on, just come.

00:06:51Marc:You play.

00:06:52Marc:You have shoes?

00:06:53Marc:You bring shoes?

00:06:54Marc:Then he's like, I got shorts.

00:06:55Marc:I'm like, I got shorts, dude.

00:06:56Marc:All right, just take it easy.

00:06:58Marc:I need the special shorts.

00:07:00Marc:I'm going to need a paddle.

00:07:02Marc:So we go out there, the four of us, and we play a game of pickleball.

00:07:06Marc:Now...

00:07:08Marc:The initiation is kind of – it's engaging because you can play.

00:07:12Marc:I can play, and I kind of get it.

00:07:14Marc:But, you know, the scoring is tricky.

00:07:17Marc:So I think that's the first level.

00:07:18Marc:It's like if you get into the game –

00:07:23Marc:Then you're like, what is this scoring mysticism?

00:07:26Marc:I don't understand this scoring and how you announce the server and then the score and then the server again.

00:07:31Marc:I don't know.

00:07:31Marc:I don't get it.

00:07:32Marc:Well, that's kind of second level shit, man.

00:07:34Marc:You can hit the ball and you want to get in the kitchen.

00:07:36Marc:What's the kitchen?

00:07:37Marc:That's the front box.

00:07:39Marc:You got to serve and get in the kitchen.

00:07:40Marc:I'm like, what are you talking about?

00:07:41Marc:And it can't.

00:07:42Marc:It's got to bounce before you hit it back.

00:07:44Marc:If you serve like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:07:46Marc:So now there was too much going on.

00:07:48Marc:They gave me too much information.

00:07:51Marc:They showed me too many tears before I really got into it.

00:07:54Marc:Now, here's the deal.

00:07:57Marc:It's not going to be do not worry.

00:08:01Marc:I'm not going to be in the cult, but it was fun.

00:08:03Marc:It was enjoyable.

00:08:04Marc:I don't really like to compete on that level.

00:08:07Marc:I don't like competitive sports that much because I tend to do it with my mind and I make up a lot of the opposition.

00:08:13Marc:So that's where I'm at competitive wise.

00:08:16Marc:Like I like doing my exercise.

00:08:18Marc:I like doing the workouts I do and the hiking and stuff.

00:08:21Marc:And like, you know, I don't even time myself.

00:08:23Marc:I don't try to beat my record or anything.

00:08:24Marc:I just do this stuff.

00:08:25Marc:The competitive thing happens inside.

00:08:27Marc:I don't need to be outside.

00:08:29Marc:I don't need other people involved.

00:08:30Marc:I don't need to see that part of myself.

00:08:32Marc:So that's going to stop me from that part of the pickleball experience.

00:08:35Marc:But I did enjoy it.

00:08:36Marc:And I could pick it up again.

00:08:38Marc:But I don't see myself...

00:08:40Marc:buying paddles.

00:08:42Marc:I don't see myself buying shoes.

00:08:43Marc:I don't see myself hanging on my paddle.

00:08:45Marc:I don't see myself hanging out by the court.

00:08:46Marc:I don't see myself saying it's my turn.

00:08:48Marc:Who am I playing with?

00:08:49Marc:I don't see it.

00:08:51Marc:I'm not diminishing it, but it was a close call.

00:08:56Marc:I was brought in.

00:08:56Marc:I was initiated, but I'm not sure it's stuck.

00:09:01Marc:I don't know if it's gonna, but I feel like not.

00:09:04Marc:Okay.

00:09:05Marc:But I had a pretty good time and I'm glad the entire planet is

00:09:10Marc:of a certain age.

00:09:12Marc:But Craig says, no, no, no, no, no.

00:09:15Marc:All ages are enjoying pickleball.

00:09:18Marc:So I hung out with my brother.

00:09:19Marc:We went to a couple of vegan restaurants.

00:09:21Marc:I'm still vegan.

00:09:21Marc:Something's going on with that.

00:09:23Marc:Then I saw my mother.

00:09:24Marc:I saw my mother the first day.

00:09:25Marc:I saw my brother the second day.

00:09:26Marc:And I started to realize something about spending time with old parents.

00:09:30Marc:It's probably going to hurt her to hear that, but she's old and she's my parent.

00:09:35Marc:And her boyfriend, John, is old.

00:09:37Marc:But, you know, it's like, I used to be like, what are we going to talk about?

00:09:40Marc:What are we going to do?

00:09:41Marc:And you start to realize, like, it doesn't matter.

00:09:43Marc:Just sit there.

00:09:44Marc:You know, sit there.

00:09:45Marc:You have the conversation.

00:09:46Marc:And then when they start repeating themselves, maybe you try to talk about something external.

00:09:51Marc:And then, you know, just settle into it.

00:09:52Marc:Maybe they're going to go watch TV.

00:09:54Marc:Maybe they're going to putter around the house.

00:09:56Marc:Maybe they're going to feed their dogs, talk to their dogs.

00:09:58Marc:Maybe they're going to offer you food over and over again.

00:10:01Marc:Maybe the same food over and over again.

00:10:02Marc:But you just log the hours.

00:10:04Marc:Log the time.

00:10:06Marc:Get the time in before you don't have time.

00:10:10Marc:So then we all went out to dinner.

00:10:11Marc:My mom, her boyfriend, and my brother, and his girlfriend, and her daughter.

00:10:17Marc:I got to be honest with you, those of you who know what I'm talking about, those of you who know my HBO special, that John, who's featured prominently in my HBO special, has an impression I do of him, which took me a long time to make, you know, nice, respectful.

00:10:31Marc:He liked it.

00:10:32Marc:He said, I liked it.

00:10:34Marc:He said it was a good show.

00:10:35Marc:The whole show was good.

00:10:36Marc:It was like some Lenny Bruce shit.

00:10:38Marc:And I'm going to say that was very nice of him to say that.

00:10:40Marc:But I will tell you this.

00:10:42Marc:I will tell you this.

00:10:45Marc:During the entire time I was with him over the scope of two or three days, not once did he say it was a different time.

00:10:54Marc:Not once.

00:10:57Marc:No, it was a different time.

00:10:58Marc:None.

00:10:59Marc:It was a different time.

00:11:00Marc:None.

00:11:02Marc:So as much as he liked the special, I made himself aware of something that was not necessarily a bad thing.

00:11:11Marc:I don't feel bad about it, but it was a different time.

00:11:15Marc:Not one.

00:11:15Marc:So I had a visceral and intellectual and emotional and maybe even spiritual reaction to the limited series that Rachel Weisz is here to talk about, among other things, obviously.

00:11:31Marc:I saw the movie Dead Ringers with Jeremy Irons, the Cronenberg film years ago.

00:11:36Marc:I remember some fairly grotesque things about it.

00:11:40Marc:I remember a set of tools they invented for modern gynecology.

00:11:44Marc:It was haunting.

00:11:46Marc:I don't know.

00:11:46Marc:It's a physical horror movie.

00:11:48Marc:A lot of like there's a lot of body stuff.

00:11:53Marc:You know, it's doctors, man.

00:11:56Marc:But I didn't get an overall point.

00:11:58Marc:You know, other than the creepiness and the, I believe, misogyny of the doctors because they were creating these kind of horrendous instruments.

00:12:08Marc:I can't speak to it exactly.

00:12:10Marc:Maybe I should have done some homework.

00:12:11Marc:But I do know that this new Dead Ringers is almost the opposite.

00:12:15Marc:And I was trying to communicate this.

00:12:17Marc:This is a feminist work of art is what I was trying to say to her.

00:12:26Marc:And maybe I did say it.

00:12:29Marc:But it took me a long time to process.

00:12:30Marc:There's a lot of episodes.

00:12:32Marc:And as I found out from her, it's written by very intelligent people, some of them playwrights, that it's not just a horror movie.

00:12:38Marc:It deals with the two sides of the feminine spirit almost.

00:12:42Marc:One sister is wild and has a...

00:12:46Marc:a sort of bottomless appetite for fun, for drugs, for life, for, you know, sex.

00:12:53Marc:And the other one is, is sort of this maternal spirit who, you know, wants to create a space where women can feel safe and healthy.

00:13:03Marc:And, and, but it all revolves around this birthing center that they're building because they're both gynecologists.

00:13:08Marc:So there you have these two sides where the wild, intense, brilliant children,

00:13:12Marc:drug addicted, drug consuming, food consuming, sex consuming one, is a research scientist trying to figure out how to gestate a fetus entirely outside of the body.

00:13:24Marc:And then the other sister is sort of trying to create this environment where women are not treated as patients just because they're pregnant and to sort of embrace the reality of birth.

00:13:33Marc:But I'm telling you, man, it's a feminist masterpiece and

00:13:37Marc:And I couldn't even really explain it.

00:13:39Marc:I don't know if I just explained it to you.

00:13:40Marc:It's all in there.

00:13:42Marc:That's all I'm saying.

00:13:43Marc:And I tried to say it to Rachel, and I don't know how it landed.

00:13:47Marc:So the full season of Dead Ringers, this series, Dead Ringers, is now streaming on Prime Video.

00:13:53Marc:But brace yourself, God damn it.

00:13:55Marc:I mean, I'm a guy.

00:13:56Marc:I don't have kids.

00:13:56Marc:So I actually learned a lot of things.

00:13:59Marc:And I saw things I would never have seen.

00:14:01Marc:And never will see if it hadn't been for this limited series.

00:14:05Marc:And this is me talking or trying to talk to Rachel Weisz about Dead Ringers and other things.

00:14:20Marc:What do you listen to when you listen to it?

00:14:22Marc:Like, if you're like, I'm going to listen to some Lou.

00:14:24Guest:I would listen to Ocean, Velvet Underground.

00:14:27Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:14:27Guest:Here Come the Ocean.

00:14:28Guest:Sure.

00:14:29Guest:Waves crashing down.

00:14:30Guest:That's the best, yeah.

00:14:31Guest:Pale Blue Eyes.

00:14:32Guest:Pale Blue Eyes is brilliant.

00:14:33Guest:You like those ones.

00:14:33Guest:And then my son actually learned to play on the guitar.

00:14:36Guest:Over the hill right now.

00:14:38Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:14:39Guest:That you're looking for.

00:14:40Guest:It's about an actress who's over the hill.

00:14:41Marc:Yeah, no, that's New Age.

00:14:42Marc:That's the best.

00:14:42Guest:Yeah, it's a great, I feel like every single one of his songs, I mean, this is not original, what I'm going to say, but he's such a storyteller.

00:14:51Guest:I mean, there's such vivid, like, he's just like a narrative genius and a poetic genius.

00:14:56Guest:But I like the, was it 90s, the Halloween parade stuff?

00:15:00Guest:Oh, yeah, that was.

00:15:01Guest:Lou on his own.

00:15:02Marc:Yeah, New York.

00:15:03Guest:New York.

00:15:03Guest:The New York record.

00:15:04Guest:I mean, that album is just.

00:15:05Guest:It's great.

00:15:06Guest:It's exquisite, yeah.

00:15:07Marc:When was the first time you heard the Lou?

00:15:10Marc:When did you do it?

00:15:10Guest:Well, probably when it came out in the 90s.

00:15:12Guest:No, but I mean like... Oh, The Velvet Underground.

00:15:14Guest:Oh, I would have been about 15, so 1985.

00:15:20Marc:Who had it?

00:15:21Marc:Who turned you on to that?

00:15:23Guest:I had a very close girlfriend called Daisy.

00:15:27Guest:Yeah.

00:15:28Guest:And Daisy and I used to sit in the basement of... Her mom lived upstairs.

00:15:34Guest:We'd be downstairs in the basement listening to The Velvet Underground.

00:15:36Guest:She lived in West London.

00:15:38Yeah.

00:15:38Guest:Yeah.

00:15:38Marc:Who turned her on to it because you guys were young.

00:15:41Marc:I don't know.

00:15:41Marc:Did she have an older brother or sister?

00:15:43Guest:She did have it.

00:15:44Guest:She has a much older brother, Matthew.

00:15:47Guest:Maybe it was from him.

00:15:48Guest:It's a great question.

00:15:49Guest:I never thought about that.

00:15:49Guest:Like, how did it come about?

00:15:51Marc:Yeah, because I remember like that I when I moved into this apartment, some guy had his brother's records and live in 69 was one of the records.

00:16:00Marc:And this was like, I don't know, in the 80s, like 85, 86.

00:16:04Marc:And Live in 69 is still like one of my favorite records.

00:16:07Marc:They're all on there.

00:16:08Marc:You have that one?

00:16:09Guest:I didn't think so.

00:16:09Guest:You got to get that one.

00:16:10Guest:Okay.

00:16:11Marc:It's a double album.

00:16:12Marc:Ocean's on there, Pale Blue Eyes.

00:16:14Marc:We're going to have a real good time.

00:16:15Guest:It's great.

00:16:16Guest:We're going to have a real good time together.

00:16:20Guest:Oh, God.

00:16:21Guest:Every single year since being 15 and there's many years in between, they just get better and better and better.

00:16:27Marc:Well, that's the thing about good stuff, about art, about stuff that's possessed by genius, is it grows with you, right?

00:16:34Marc:Yeah.

00:16:34Marc:And you hear new things.

00:16:35Marc:And then if you listen to different recordings of things, you're like, I never, like, what?

00:16:39Marc:How did I not get that?

00:16:40Marc:But, like, if you're listening to Velvet Underground in 15, no, you were up to no good, right?

00:16:45Guest:I was definitely not conservative.

00:16:48Guest:Yeah, I would agree with you.

00:16:51Guest:But the 69, what does that mean?

00:16:53Guest:It was like 1969.

00:16:54Guest:Okay, right.

00:16:55Marc:So it's the Velvet Underground live in 69.

00:16:57Marc:That was the record.

00:16:58Marc:It came as a double album.

00:16:59Marc:I'll show it to you.

00:17:00Guest:Okay, where were they playing?

00:17:02Marc:I want to think it was New York, but he starts talking about Texas in the middle of it.

00:17:06Marc:That's something I should know as a relatively deep Velvet Underground nerd, but I don't.

00:17:11Guest:I'm not actually a nerd.

00:17:12Guest:Like I don't have information about, I don't, there's so much I don't know.

00:17:16Marc:Yeah.

00:17:16Marc:That's me with like everything.

00:17:18Guest:Me too.

00:17:18Guest:I know my friend, Emily and I, we will say like, we just don't know any facts.

00:17:23Guest:I know.

00:17:23Marc:I know.

00:17:23Marc:You have a sense.

00:17:24Guest:I have a sense.

00:17:26Guest:I have a really good sense.

00:17:27Guest:Like, and a feeling, a strong feeling.

00:17:28Guest:Oh yeah.

00:17:28Guest:Strong feeling.

00:17:29Marc:I've seen some pictures.

00:17:30Marc:I've heard other people talk about it.

00:17:32Marc:So I feel confident, you know, I'm actually doing a joke about that in my standup.

00:17:36Guest:Really?

00:17:37Guest:About your factlessness?

00:17:38Marc:Well, yeah.

00:17:39Marc:I say, look, I know Hitler was bad.

00:17:41Marc:I just, I don't have dates.

00:17:43Marc:I don't have dates.

00:17:43Marc:You know, I got a resume.

00:17:48Marc:But it's vague on the date.

00:17:50Marc:Yeah.

00:17:51Guest:But also, did you study English?

00:17:52Marc:Yeah.

00:17:53Guest:Yeah, I studied English.

00:17:54Guest:This is my excuse.

00:17:55Guest:When I was studying, like, late, early, early 90s, what was in fashion was, like, the author is dead.

00:18:00Guest:Like, no biographical detail.

00:18:01Guest:Right.

00:18:02Guest:So I just, like, you know, most people, they know stuff about the writers they love.

00:18:05Guest:I just don't know anything.

00:18:06Marc:Yeah.

00:18:07Marc:Well, I took my concentration in romantic literature early.

00:18:10Marc:It was like a nine o'clock class.

00:18:12Marc:And I was like kind of fucked up.

00:18:15Marc:And I just rarely made it.

00:18:17Marc:So we're like I went, but we're studying Byron, Shelley, Yates.

00:18:21Marc:It's all good.

00:18:22Guest:Yeah.

00:18:22Marc:And I read at Coleridge.

00:18:24Guest:Yeah.

00:18:24Marc:But like I could never contextualize anything.

00:18:26Marc:I don't know.

00:18:26Marc:That's my problem.

00:18:27Guest:Yeah.

00:18:27Marc:Because I can't compartmentalize.

00:18:28Marc:I can't contextualize.

00:18:30Marc:I have a problem with boundaries in my head.

00:18:33Marc:You know, everything has to mean something in the present.

00:18:35Marc:Yeah.

00:18:35Marc:I can't put it into a framework.

00:18:38Guest:I know exactly what you mean.

00:18:39Guest:You're just reacting to that.

00:18:40Guest:That's right.

00:18:41Guest:And it's great.

00:18:41Guest:Yeah.

00:18:42Guest:And it's pure.

00:18:43Guest:It's a very pure thing.

00:18:44Guest:You don't need to know what he wore and what sexuality wore.

00:18:47Guest:You don't need to know about it.

00:18:48Marc:But sometimes it helps to know what was going on historically to define why he was writing about what he was writing and what makes him different.

00:18:54Marc:That's relatively important.

00:18:56Marc:But when I was in college, I was incapable of doing that.

00:18:59Guest:Well, we were just not, we were told that it was just out of fashion to know anything.

00:19:02Guest:Oh, isn't that weird?

00:19:03Guest:Well, lucky you.

00:19:04Marc:So you majored in that?

00:19:07Marc:Not knowing?

00:19:07Guest:I majored not knowing.

00:19:09Guest:That was it, yeah.

00:19:10Guest:Did you also do Wordsworth in your romance?

00:19:12Guest:Yes, of course.

00:19:12Guest:Because I'm a huge, that's one of my favorite poets is Wordsworth.

00:19:16Marc:That's a lot.

00:19:16Marc:That's big poems.

00:19:17Guest:Some of them are long.

00:19:18Guest:The Prelude.

00:19:19Marc:Yeah, Wordsworth's Prelude.

00:19:21Guest:And Lines Above Tintin Abbey.

00:19:22Guest:Yeah.

00:19:23Guest:I mean, Intimations of Immortality.

00:19:25Guest:That poem is just, yeah, very beautiful.

00:19:27Marc:Do you read poems now?

00:19:29Guest:I do, but not as much as.

00:19:32Marc:I mean, you don't have to.

00:19:33Marc:I mean, like I find because it was very important to me at some point in time.

00:19:36Marc:I even wrote poetry.

00:19:38Guest:Really?

00:19:39Marc:Did you?

00:19:42Guest:No.

00:19:43Guest:I was just like maybe as a kid.

00:19:45Guest:But no.

00:19:45Guest:When did you write them as a young child?

00:19:47Marc:Yeah.

00:19:47Marc:When I was in senior in high school and then in college.

00:19:51Marc:Yeah.

00:19:51Marc:I was, you know, I was in the literary journal.

00:19:53Marc:I wrote the poems.

00:19:54Guest:Yeah.

00:19:54Marc:I was fairly serious.

00:19:55Guest:Do you have any of them still?

00:19:56Guest:I do.

00:19:56Marc:I do.

00:19:57Guest:I'd love to read your poems.

00:19:58Marc:No, I don't think that's going to happen.

00:20:00Marc:We'll have to talk for a little while.

00:20:01Guest:Okay, okay, okay.

00:20:02Guest:I'm going to warm up to it.

00:20:03Guest:Okay, yeah, yeah.

00:20:04Guest:I'll be in the moment with them.

00:20:06Marc:They're okay, but, you know, I was a kid, and, you know, I don't know what I was thinking.

00:20:10Marc:I just remember, like, there was an urgency to it at some point.

00:20:13Guest:Yeah, poetry is just, yeah.

00:20:16Guest:It's great, but, like, what do you do with that?

00:20:18Guest:Well, if you're Lou Reed, you make music.

00:20:19Guest:I mean, he's a poet.

00:20:20Marc:Yeah, I never really wrote songs.

00:20:22Marc:But, you know, if you're going to, like, commit your life to poetry, you're sort of like, you've got to find a teaching job.

00:20:28Guest:Yeah.

00:20:29Marc:And, you know, and publish these books that no one will read for the rest of your life.

00:20:33Guest:Yeah.

00:20:34Guest:How do you make it?

00:20:35Guest:How do you make it like bring it into the world?

00:20:37Marc:Well, I think there's some people that have a literary life where they know that the only way they can continue doing what they want to do the way they want to do it is to find a college where they can set up shop.

00:20:49Marc:And teach and do it.

00:20:51Guest:Yeah.

00:20:51Marc:Yeah.

00:20:52Guest:Do you teach?

00:20:53Marc:No.

00:20:54Guest:No.

00:20:54Marc:What was I going to teach?

00:20:55Marc:I mean, I do stand-up comedy.

00:20:57Marc:I talk to people like you.

00:20:58Guest:You have no time.

00:20:59Guest:You have no time to teach.

00:21:00Marc:I act in things.

00:21:01Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:21:02Marc:I used to talk about how when I didn't think show business was going to work out, and I thought, like, I don't know what I could do.

00:21:11Marc:And I thought, like, I could always teach.

00:21:12Marc:And then I'm like, what would I teach?

00:21:13Marc:Unless it's a class about me, I don't know.

00:21:17Marc:I could do a full half a year semester on me.

00:21:20Marc:But that's sort of what good teachers do anyways, isn't it?

00:21:24Marc:That's how they curate it.

00:21:25Marc:These are my interests, and I'm justified in them because I'm at this school, and now I'm going to put them in your head.

00:21:31Guest:Did you have good teachers?

00:21:33Marc:When?

00:21:34Guest:Ever.

00:21:35Marc:I think there was one guy in high school that kind of blew my mind.

00:21:41Marc:I learned more from guys in record stores and a guy who owned a bookstore in Albuquerque than I did teachers.

00:21:46Guest:Really?

00:21:46Guest:Have you spoken about them a lot?

00:21:49Guest:I have.

00:21:49Marc:I've talked about them.

00:21:50Marc:Gus Blaisdell owned the Living Batch bookstore, and he was a cultural critic, smart guy.

00:21:54Marc:I always aspired to smartness.

00:21:56Marc:It's something you really can't aspire to.

00:21:57Marc:Like, I'd like to be smart.

00:22:00Yeah.

00:22:00Guest:When I grow up, I'd like to be smart.

00:22:02Guest:Yeah, it's smart to be able to talk about things.

00:22:03Marc:What about you?

00:22:04Marc:You grew up where?

00:22:05Marc:In London?

00:22:06Guest:North London, yeah.

00:22:08Marc:What's North London?

00:22:09Marc:What defines North London?

00:22:11Guest:North London.

00:22:12Guest:Well, there's lots of different bits to it.

00:22:13Guest:I grew up near a place called Hampstead Heath, which is like a huge green space.

00:22:18Guest:Oh, that's nice.

00:22:18Guest:Massive, wild, lots of trees.

00:22:20Guest:Oh, that's great, right?

00:22:21Guest:I used to climb trees a lot as a kid.

00:22:23Guest:And there are ponds that you can swim in.

00:22:26Guest:Oh, really?

00:22:26Guest:Still?

00:22:26Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:22:27Guest:Still swimming in them?

00:22:27Marc:Yeah, still swimming in them.

00:22:28Marc:That's amazing that there's clean water.

00:22:30Guest:I don't know exactly how clean it is, but people do swim in it.

00:22:34Guest:Yeah.

00:22:35Guest:North London.

00:22:35Marc:Yeah, it's... Suburbish or no?

00:22:38Guest:Just, well, you know, like London is lots of... I guess not really suburbs.

00:22:42Guest:Well, it sort of is.

00:22:43Guest:It's like lots of villages that joined up and made... Yeah, but they're from like 300 years ago.

00:22:47Guest:Or more.

00:22:48Guest:Yeah, like maybe 600.

00:22:50Marc:600-year-old suburbs.

00:22:52Guest:Yeah.

00:22:52Guest:The originals.

00:22:53Guest:So, yeah, I grew up in an area called Hampstead Garden Suburb, which was actually early 20th century.

00:22:57Guest:It was built by a teetotaler called Dame Henrietta Barnett.

00:23:02Marc:Okay.

00:23:02Guest:Yeah.

00:23:02Guest:I mean, she designed it.

00:23:04Guest:So she was teetotal, so there were no pubs, no bars, and strangely no shops.

00:23:09Guest:There was just a big church called St.

00:23:11Guest:Jude's.

00:23:12Marc:Do people say that she was a fun woman?

00:23:17Guest:Yeah, I think she was really serious.

00:23:20Guest:But my facts are going to let me down.

00:23:22Guest:That's all I know about her.

00:23:23Marc:Yeah, good information.

00:23:25Marc:There's no dates.

00:23:28Marc:Yeah, I exactly understand.

00:23:30Guest:And everything is slightly mock Tudor style.

00:23:33Guest:You know that style?

00:23:34Marc:Yeah, you can't even get the real stuff.

00:23:36Marc:There's real Tudor somewhere down the street.

00:23:38Guest:It's just down the road.

00:23:39Guest:It's like super old stuff.

00:23:40Marc:So she's trying to keep it in the theme, but modernize it a little bit.

00:23:43Marc:Sounds like she's trying to make some sort of weird religious community.

00:23:46Marc:Like, you know, where no one drank and there were no shops and it's just a church.

00:23:50Guest:Yeah.

00:23:51Marc:People kept their moral focus.

00:23:53Guest:I think you're right.

00:23:54Guest:You've just, you've assessed it.

00:23:56Marc:I'm very good at speculating history.

00:23:57Marc:I'm very good at speculating about things that we could just look up.

00:24:01Marc:To see if I'm wrong.

00:24:03Guest:Do people ever like Wikipedia?

00:24:05Guest:I haven't got my phone with me.

00:24:05Guest:Do they ever Wikipedia things when they're in here?

00:24:08Marc:I do it sometimes.

00:24:09Marc:Especially if both of us can't remember something.

00:24:12Marc:I'll look it up.

00:24:13Marc:That happens with me with names a lot now.

00:24:15Marc:Because I don't know.

00:24:16Marc:I think I'm getting old and it happens.

00:24:17Marc:I lose names.

00:24:18Guest:Or you just have so many names in your head.

00:24:20Guest:There's finite space.

00:24:22Marc:Okay, I'll believe you.

00:24:23Marc:I've lived in a lot of different places.

00:24:25Marc:And I'm old.

00:24:26Marc:And I'm a twice-married, childless man.

00:24:29Marc:I've been around a bit.

00:24:30Marc:So if someone comes up to me and goes, do you remember me?

00:24:32Marc:I'm like, I'm going to need a town.

00:24:34Marc:I'm not going to need a, you know, what happened, you know.

00:24:38Guest:No, I'm with you.

00:24:39Guest:When I see someone I haven't seen for a long time, I always go, hi, it's Rachel, Rachel Weiss, just because it's hard, you know, it's hard to remember who everybody is.

00:24:47Marc:Well, I saw you.

00:24:47Marc:I saw you once.

00:24:50Marc:I was at...

00:24:52Marc:Because I've been doing this a long time.

00:24:53Marc:I've talked to a lot of your peers.

00:24:54Marc:I know people that know you and stuff.

00:24:57Marc:But I don't always introduce myself.

00:25:00Marc:But I was at Othello that Daniel was in, and you were there that night.

00:25:05Marc:And so was Joel Cohen.

00:25:08Marc:And Francis McDormand.

00:25:09Marc:Do you remember that?

00:25:10Guest:Yeah.

00:25:10Marc:Yeah.

00:25:11Marc:So you're all there.

00:25:12Marc:And I was sitting right behind them.

00:25:13Marc:And I saw you.

00:25:14Marc:And I do this thing where I kind of look at you for a minute to see if you're like, oh, you're Marc Maron.

00:25:19Marc:And it didn't happen.

00:25:20Guest:Oh, shit.

00:25:20Marc:Yeah.

00:25:21Marc:So I did.

00:25:21Marc:Well, why would you know me?

00:25:22Guest:It was dark.

00:25:23Marc:But you wouldn't have known me.

00:25:24Marc:So I didn't go.

00:25:26Marc:Because if you don't know me, then I'm just like, hi, I really like what you do.

00:25:30Marc:And thank you.

00:25:31Guest:Oh, you should have said hello.

00:25:33Guest:I didn't.

00:25:34Guest:Well, we're doing it now.

00:25:36Marc:Yeah, you were walking out with him, and I was like, I'm not going to.

00:25:39Marc:I didn't even bother with Joel.

00:25:41Marc:But Frances I met later.

00:25:43Guest:She's amazing.

00:25:44Marc:Right?

00:25:44Marc:You're pretty amazing, though.

00:25:46Guest:Well, thank you.

00:25:47Marc:Very good.

00:25:48Marc:Always good.

00:25:49Marc:Like, I don't even know.

00:25:50Marc:I was nervous about—I get nervous sometimes with the great actors because I just assume, like, there's some version of the character, so I'm frightened.

00:26:01Guest:Because some of the characters is scary.

00:26:02Marc:Yeah, intense.

00:26:04Marc:I'm like, what am I going to do with that person?

00:26:06Guest:Can you imagine some of them in here?

00:26:08Marc:I don't know.

00:26:09Marc:Oh.

00:26:09Marc:Years ago, I interviewed Bryan Cranston, and I really was, I think throughout the entire interview, I really just wanted to talk to Walter White.

00:26:16Marc:I just wanted him to be that guy, talk about science a little bit and meth.

00:26:22Marc:But what did your parents, were your parents artists?

00:26:24Yeah.

00:26:24Guest:No, no.

00:26:26Guest:My dad was trained as a mechanical engineer.

00:26:29Guest:And he was what we called an inventor, kind of romantically.

00:26:34Guest:But he manufactured his inventions.

00:26:37Guest:So he made artificial respirators that we use in emergencies.

00:26:42Guest:And they were pneumatically powered by their own oxygen.

00:26:44Guest:He was into pneumatics.

00:26:46Guest:He was kind of...

00:26:47Guest:very specific he was very um he was very he's not alive anymore he's a very brilliant very very brilliant scientist and his both his sisters um uh his oldest sister died a couple of weeks ago she was 98 she was an x-ray crystallographer and then the younger sister um who died about two years ago she was a endocrinologist at penn state and she was still working uh working on um

00:27:12Guest:breast cancer she'd like the the university tried to make her retire and she sued them for ageism and really kept working until her 90s yeah wow that's a good story yeah she they were there the three of them my dad and his two sisters were amazing wow amazing uh three of them and they were where'd they come from hungary they were born in budapest um and they they left um i think a year before the war break second world war broke out so 38 got out under the wire

00:27:40Guest:Yeah.

00:27:40Guest:Actually, Hungary fell, strange fact that I do know, was the last country to fall to the Nazis.

00:27:46Guest:So they actually had a bigger window, but luckily they got out.

00:27:49Marc:But did you ever talk to them about it?

00:27:51Marc:Yeah.

00:27:52Marc:So, like, did they... I'm only saying this, sadly, because I want to make sure I'm reading the signs correctly here.

00:28:00Marc:Okay.

00:28:01Marc:At this particular point in history... Yes.

00:28:03Marc:Did they, like...

00:28:04Marc:Did they know that Hitler was bad news and they felt the threat?

00:28:11Guest:Oh, I see.

00:28:11Guest:I mean, I think there were already huge.

00:28:14Guest:I know that there were anti-Semitic laws being passed by the Hungarian government.

00:28:18Guest:Yeah, they weren't like occupied yet, but it was like going that way.

00:28:21Guest:Yes.

00:28:21Guest:Yeah.

00:28:21Marc:So they're just sort of like, this is fucking crazy.

00:28:23Guest:Time to get out.

00:28:24Marc:We got to get out of here.

00:28:25Guest:Yeah.

00:28:25Marc:They're passing laws against Jews.

00:28:27Guest:Exactly.

00:28:28Guest:Exactly.

00:28:28Guest:So they left.

00:28:29Guest:Yeah.

00:28:29Marc:Yeah, because I'm ready to go.

00:28:32Guest:Where would you go?

00:28:33Guest:Sorry, it's nothing to laugh about.

00:28:34Guest:I'm sorry.

00:28:35Guest:Just the way you said it.

00:28:36Marc:No, it's hilarious.

00:28:38Marc:It's nothing not to laugh about.

00:28:39Marc:What are we supposed to do?

00:28:41Marc:At some point, you know, we can't stop it.

00:28:44Marc:We're going to have to figure out what to do.

00:28:45Marc:I mean, maybe we can stop it.

00:28:47Marc:Maybe, who knows?

00:28:47Marc:Maybe the better angels or whatever the fuck that means, they'll win out.

00:28:52Marc:But I think I'm going to Canada.

00:28:54Marc:You can just go back to England, right?

00:28:56Guest:I see.

00:28:56Guest:If things get problematic, yes.

00:28:59Marc:Yeah, I'd like to leave before I have to leave.

00:29:01Guest:Yes.

00:29:02Marc:It'd be nice to be like make choices as opposed to like, please let me in.

00:29:05Marc:I was on television.

00:29:08Guest:I'm really important in cultural addition to your society.

00:29:12Guest:Look how interesting.

00:29:13Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:29:14Marc:I'll show you some videos.

00:29:15Marc:Look at my phone.

00:29:15Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:29:16Marc:Yeah.

00:29:18Marc:So you grew up with, and your mom, was she also?

00:29:20Guest:She was a teacher.

00:29:22Guest:She taught English as a foreign language to French and German students, and she then retrained as a psychotherapist.

00:29:32Marc:She was a therapist when you were a kid?

00:29:33Guest:Yeah.

00:29:34Marc:That's rough.

00:29:35Guest:It has its complications.

00:29:37Guest:Yeah.

00:29:37Marc:Yeah.

00:29:38Marc:I was married to a psychiatrist's daughter.

00:29:42Guest:How was that?

00:29:44Guest:Yeah.

00:29:45Marc:Well, it's always kind of weird, you know, when you're a Shrink's kid.

00:29:48Marc:You know what I mean?

00:29:49Marc:Like, you know, I remember growing up and you knew Shrink's kids.

00:29:52Marc:You're like, they're a little weird.

00:29:53Marc:She was okay, you know?

00:29:54Guest:Yeah.

00:29:55Marc:But some guy made a funny joke.

00:29:58Marc:And when I told him that her dad was a psychotherapist, he said, well, he must not be a very good one.

00:30:01Marc:I'm like, why?

00:30:03Marc:He let her marry you.

00:30:05Marc:Yeah.

00:30:05Marc:Oh, gosh.

00:30:07Guest:That's not a really good joke.

00:30:09Marc:It's okay.

00:30:10Marc:No.

00:30:11Marc:So what was the impact of that on you?

00:30:15Marc:She's still around?

00:30:16Guest:No.

00:30:17Guest:Okay, they're both down?

00:30:18Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:30:19Guest:She died.

00:30:20Guest:Both Jews?

00:30:22Guest:She was raised Catholic, but she converted.

00:30:26Marc:Wow.

00:30:28Marc:So you've got Catholic Jew in you.

00:30:30Guest:Yeah, different kinds of guilt.

00:30:33Yeah.

00:30:33Marc:Yeah?

00:30:34Marc:Do you feel that?

00:30:35Guest:Guilty?

00:30:36Guest:Yeah.

00:30:39Guest:Yeah.

00:30:39Guest:Okay.

00:30:40Guest:I can feel guilty.

00:30:41Guest:Can you?

00:30:42Marc:Yeah.

00:30:42Marc:I like to go right to shame.

00:30:44Guest:Right to shame.

00:30:46Guest:You just bypass guilt.

00:30:47Guest:Yeah.

00:30:48Guest:Is shame worse than guilt?

00:30:49Guest:I'm trying to think, what's the difference?

00:30:50Marc:I think it's the same area.

00:30:52Guest:Yeah.

00:30:52Guest:You know what I mean?

00:30:53Marc:Cousins.

00:30:53Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:30:54Marc:But I think guilt you can kind of negotiate with.

00:30:58Guest:Yeah.

00:30:58Marc:You know?

00:30:59Guest:Yeah.

00:31:00Marc:Like, you know, I feel bad, but it wasn't that bad.

00:31:02Guest:Yeah.

00:31:03Marc:But like once you saturate in shame a little bit, you're just kind of like, oh, I'm the worst.

00:31:07Guest:Yeah.

00:31:07Guest:And shame makes your cheeks burn.

00:31:09Guest:You know what I mean?

00:31:10Guest:It's like a physical.

00:31:11Guest:Do you sometimes feel that when your cheeks burn?

00:31:13Marc:I get a tightness in the chest.

00:31:15Guest:Do you?

00:31:16Marc:Yeah.

00:31:16Guest:But I'm all right.

00:31:17Guest:Yeah.

00:31:17Marc:Just sort of like my brain just kind of operates in an anxious state.

00:31:20Guest:Yeah, but I think you've made a creative act out of it.

00:31:24Guest:Thank God.

00:31:24Marc:So you've got these parents.

00:31:27Marc:Now, did you hear about the Holocaust constantly?

00:31:29Guest:Um, not constantly, but it was definitely, it wasn't, wasn't not spoken about.

00:31:36Marc:Yeah.

00:31:37Marc:Did you have family in Hungary?

00:31:38Marc:Did you lose people?

00:31:40Marc:Did your family?

00:31:40Guest:Yes.

00:31:40Guest:Yeah.

00:31:41Guest:I lost.

00:31:41Guest:Yes, definitely.

00:31:42Guest:I mean, that I never met, obviously.

00:31:44Guest:Right.

00:31:45Marc:That's heavy.

00:31:46Guest:It is.

00:31:47Marc:And when, when do you start to, um, perform?

00:31:53Guest:I just saw the natural segue there, yeah.

00:31:56Guest:You just saw it?

00:31:56Guest:Yeah, I did.

00:31:57Guest:It was like a bridge.

00:31:58Marc:Yeah, we go right from the Holocaust.

00:32:00Marc:When did you start making people enjoy your presence on stage?

00:32:06Guest:I was not, I wasn't, I found this true of a lot of actors that I speak to.

00:32:12Guest:I wasn't like a performing child.

00:32:14Guest:I wasn't kind of like singing songs for people and tap dancing and Shirley Temple-ish in any way.

00:32:20Guest:The place I really started was when I was at university.

00:32:26Guest:I started a theater company with some pals.

00:32:29Guest:Yeah.

00:32:29Guest:And we used to write all of our plays through improvisation.

00:32:33Marc:Okay.

00:32:34Guest:So it was kind of like improv, like you'd improv and then you'd find dialogue.

00:32:38Guest:And it was myself and another actress called Sasha Hales.

00:32:42Guest:Uh-huh.

00:32:42Guest:And we used to...

00:32:44Guest:write plays and then take them to the edinburgh festival this is when i was like 18 19 20 21 and i think going to the edinburgh festival that that for me is like the was one of the greatest times so you spent a month there handing out flyers exactly exactly so i'll be running up and down the royal you've been too right yeah once do stand up how how was it

00:33:03Marc:I thought it was the worst thing I ever did in my life.

00:33:05Marc:Where were you, The Gilded Balloon?

00:33:06Marc:Yeah, I was at The Gilded Balloon.

00:33:07Guest:What went wrong?

00:33:08Marc:What went wrong?

00:33:09Guest:Yeah.

00:33:10Marc:I wasn't a known person.

00:33:12Marc:Okay.

00:33:13Marc:But I at least was produced.

00:33:15Marc:What's her name?

00:33:17Marc:Karen...

00:33:18Marc:She brought me out with another guy and we did a double bill.

00:33:21Marc:And I didn't realize that you go in as a double bill.

00:33:23Marc:People think you're green, that you don't have an hour.

00:33:25Marc:I was just not a known person, but I didn't have to run around and hand out flyers.

00:33:29Marc:But I was there for a month performing for audiences ranging from five to 30.

00:33:34Guest:What time?

00:33:35Guest:Evenings?

00:33:36Marc:Yeah.

00:33:37Guest:Yeah.

00:33:37Marc:I mean, I felt like I was performing every day and it was just relentless.

00:33:40Marc:Yeah.

00:33:41Marc:It wasn't that long ago, but it was like 2007 maybe.

00:33:45Marc:Okay.

00:33:45Marc:But it was just like, I can't leave.

00:33:48Marc:We're not getting people to come to this thing.

00:33:50Marc:I'm on a double bill.

00:33:52Marc:And it's like, it was just a slog.

00:33:54Marc:I'd also just been, my wife had just left me.

00:34:00Marc:So that was not great.

00:34:03Guest:You were in a bad place when you went to Edinburgh.

00:34:05Marc:Bad or a good place.

00:34:06Marc:I was definitely working it out on stage.

00:34:10Guest:But was that part of your stand-up?

00:34:13Marc:Yeah, I guess it's arguable whether it was funny, but I was definitely living it.

00:34:16Guest:You were living it?

00:34:17Marc:Sure.

00:34:17Marc:Yeah, put it right out there.

00:34:19Marc:But anyways, that was my experience.

00:34:20Marc:For you, an amazing experience.

00:34:22Marc:And you could see all the different people doing all the different things.

00:34:26Guest:Yeah, I mean, I saw a lot of, in the late 80s, I saw a whole lot of Eastern European, like Polish, Romanian, Hungarian theater that was completely different from anything I'd ever seen in England.

00:34:38Guest:There was this guy called Cantor, a theater director.

00:34:42Guest:Yeah.

00:34:42Guest:He used to always be on stage directing the actors.

00:34:46Guest:He died.

00:34:47Guest:On stage?

00:34:48Guest:No, he died somewhere else.

00:34:50Guest:But he'd said that for one year after his death that the company could keep going and do this show.

00:34:56Guest:There was an empty chair.

00:34:58Guest:Oh, my God, yeah.

00:34:59Guest:But this show was like nothing I've ever seen before.

00:35:01Guest:The whole stage was transformed into battlefields and...

00:35:06Guest:It was kind of experimental physical theater, but it was properly genius and mind-blowing.

00:35:12Guest:So that really got under my skin.

00:35:14Guest:I also saw, I think it was 1989 or 88, I saw Dennis Leary perform No Cure for Cancer, which that blew my mind.

00:35:24Guest:I'd never seen anything like that.

00:35:26Guest:This American dude smoking 60,000 cigarettes on stage and talking about

00:35:31Marc:Ranting.

00:35:32Guest:Clubbing baby seals.

00:35:33Guest:Yeah, sure.

00:35:34Guest:And it was like something I had never come across.

00:35:36Marc:And you saw that in Edinburgh?

00:35:37Guest:I saw it in Edinburgh, yeah.

00:35:38Guest:And he would be like drinking in the Gilded Balloon bar.

00:35:41Guest:Yeah, right.

00:35:41Guest:And me and my pals were there.

00:35:42Guest:And we were like, that's Dennis Leary.

00:35:45Guest:Yeah, sure.

00:35:46Guest:It was amazing.

00:35:46Marc:Yeah.

00:35:47Marc:So that was, I guess it was always like that.

00:35:50Marc:But there was also a lot of just straight theater going on.

00:35:54Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:35:55Marc:Because when I went, it felt like it was all sort of comedy driven at this point.

00:35:59Guest:Well, you were probably in the comedy bubble world.

00:36:02Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:36:03Guest:There's a lot of straight theater and experimental theater.

00:36:05Guest:We performed somewhat, it doesn't exist in what's called the Richard DeMarco Gallery.

00:36:09Guest:And he brought over Joseph Boyce, the visual artist from Eastern Europe.

00:36:13Guest:And we performed there in his kind of like gallery.

00:36:16Marc:This was you and your group?

00:36:17Guest:Yeah.

00:36:17Guest:Yeah, it was myself and Sasha were the performers.

00:36:20Marc:Yeah.

00:36:20Guest:We did a play there called Slight Possession.

00:36:23Guest:One of the pieces of work I'm most proud of was me, her, and a stepladder was the third character.

00:36:30Marc:And you guys had written it?

00:36:32Guest:Yeah, we wrote it through improv, yeah.

00:36:33Guest:We were like a little repertory company.

00:36:35Marc:At Cambridge?

00:36:36Guest:At Cambridge, yeah.

00:36:37Marc:So you were like 19?

00:36:40Guest:Yes, 19.

00:36:42Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:36:43Marc:So that's when it started?

00:36:44Guest:That's when it started, and I went there when I was 20, 21.

00:36:46Guest:We went there for a few years in a row.

00:36:47Marc:Just the two of you.

00:36:49Guest:Yes, and David Farr was the director, and he was in my English class in my college, Trinity Hall, and Rose Garnett, who was the producer.

00:36:57Guest:There were four of us.

00:36:58Marc:Okay.

00:36:59Marc:Yeah.

00:36:59Marc:So wait, I've interviewed other people from there.

00:37:02Marc:Yeah.

00:37:04Marc:Yeah.

00:37:04Marc:Did you go to school with Sasha?

00:37:06Yeah.

00:37:06Guest:Sasha Baron Cohen.

00:37:08Guest:He was at Cambridge.

00:37:09Guest:I don't think we were there at the same time.

00:37:10Guest:I think he might be younger than me.

00:37:12Guest:I've met him since in the grown-up world.

00:37:14Guest:Yeah, he's a genius.

00:37:16Marc:Yeah, he's a funny guy.

00:37:17Guest:Very funny guy, yeah.

00:37:18Marc:So when you go back each year, does it become more experimental?

00:37:23Marc:Are you looking for laughs?

00:37:24Marc:What are you doing?

00:37:24Marc:What was that play that you're proud of?

00:37:26Marc:What was that about?

00:37:27Guest:It was called Slight Possession and it was about how couples try and possess each other.

00:37:32Guest:It was actually kind of about codependence probably.

00:37:34Marc:Yeah.

00:37:35Guest:In a way.

00:37:35Marc:Yeah.

00:37:36Marc:But maybe you didn't know that was what it was called then.

00:37:39Guest:Maybe not.

00:37:40Marc:Yeah.

00:37:40Guest:Maybe not.

00:37:41Guest:But it was about, yeah, couples who, yeah, try and possess everything about each other, each other's imaginations, each other's everything.

00:37:49Guest:And it was darkly funny.

00:37:50Guest:We called it Fraught Naturalism.

00:37:53Marc:Fraught.

00:37:54Marc:Oh, you had a name for it.

00:37:55Guest:We had to come up with something, you know.

00:37:56Marc:Oh, in terms of the blurb?

00:37:58Guest:Well, no.

00:37:59Guest:The description?

00:38:00Guest:No, no.

00:38:01Guest:We didn't give it in the blurb.

00:38:03Guest:Just, I guess, afterwards.

00:38:05Guest:It's nice.

00:38:05Guest:Talking about it, yeah.

00:38:06Marc:And have you performed it since?

00:38:09Guest:No, I've thought about it because all we need is a step ladder.

00:38:11Guest:We both needed a little floral dress.

00:38:13Guest:Yeah.

00:38:15Guest:And a step ladder and an empty space.

00:38:18Marc:And are you still in touch with her?

00:38:19Marc:Yeah.

00:38:20Marc:You are?

00:38:20Guest:Yeah.

00:38:21Guest:Yeah.

00:38:21Guest:She's actually been working on a screenplay for a novel called Lanny by Max Porter.

00:38:28Guest:It's a great experimental novel.

00:38:30Marc:So it's kind of wild that you know people when you're young and they stay in the arts.

00:38:34Guest:Yeah.

00:38:35Marc:A lot of people don't.

00:38:36Marc:That's true.

00:38:37Marc:You know what I mean?

00:38:38Marc:You start with these people like, what happened to that guy?

00:38:40Marc:I don't know.

00:38:41Marc:Normal life, I guess.

00:38:42Guest:Well, it's very hard.

00:38:43Guest:I mean, I always say to anyone, young person who says they want to act, I always say, there's anything that you can think of that would make you happy.

00:38:51Guest:Do that.

00:38:52Guest:Anything.

00:38:53Guest:Because it's, you know, it's like not, it's hard to get a job.

00:38:57Marc:It's the worst.

00:38:58Marc:You know, when people ask me about comedy, I'm like, yeah, but don't limit yourself to stand up.

00:39:02Marc:If you can work with other people, if you're capable, figure out how to do that.

00:39:06Marc:Like if you can be funny and write funny, there's a million things you can do.

00:39:11Guest:Yeah.

00:39:11Marc:Don't just be one of these sad lone wolves out there on the road talking to strangers.

00:39:17Guest:It's tough.

00:39:18Guest:I mean, I sometimes think I have like a nightmare that I dream, you know, that I would have to do stand up, you know, I mean, terrifying.

00:39:29Guest:You talk about performance, anxiety, dreams, stand up.

00:39:32Guest:I don't know how you do it.

00:39:33Marc:What are you talking about?

00:39:34Marc:Haven't you done one person shows?

00:39:36Guest:No.

00:39:37Marc:Never?

00:39:38Guest:Never.

00:39:38Marc:You never did a piece?

00:39:40Guest:I've done an audition where I stand up and read monologue.

00:39:43Marc:Well, that's pretty awful, right?

00:39:45Guest:Awful.

00:39:46Guest:Not having a pal to bounce off of.

00:39:48Guest:Bounce off of, yeah.

00:39:49Marc:Just these weird blank-faced executives and a casting director.

00:39:54Guest:Or an audience full of people that want to be amused.

00:39:57Guest:Like I could maybe do it with a pal.

00:40:00Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:40:01Marc:It sounds like you probably got some laughs in that show you did.

00:40:03Guest:It was, yeah, darkly quite funny.

00:40:06Marc:But it wasn't a comedy troupe that you had put together.

00:40:09Marc:At Cambridge, you weren't doing it to be funny.

00:40:11Marc:You were doing it for theater.

00:40:12Guest:No, that was the Footlights.

00:40:14Guest:That was really... Oh, right, right.

00:40:15Guest:That was the comedy sketch show.

00:40:16Guest:Like Beyond the Fringe, you know, Peter Cook, Dudley Moore, all those guys.

00:40:20Guest:They all came from that.

00:40:21Marc:I think that's what I talked to...

00:40:23Marc:Sasha about also about buffoonery.

00:40:27Guest:Oh yeah.

00:40:28Guest:Yeah.

00:40:28Guest:So he trained with Philippe Gollier.

00:40:30Marc:Yeah.

00:40:31Guest:And that's the, cause I'm not trained.

00:40:32Guest:I didn't go to drama school.

00:40:33Guest:Yeah.

00:40:33Guest:I don't think he did either.

00:40:35Guest:Yeah.

00:40:35Guest:Um, but after Cambridge, I did some workshops with Philippe Gollier and did like, um, uh, Buffon.

00:40:43Marc:Buffon.

00:40:43Guest:Buffon.

00:40:44Guest:Yeah.

00:40:44Guest:Buffonery.

00:40:45Guest:Yeah.

00:40:45Marc:Is that clown work?

00:40:47Guest:It's clown work.

00:40:48Marc:Yeah.

00:40:48Guest:Yeah.

00:40:49Marc:So you really want to be funny.

00:40:50Yeah.

00:40:50Guest:I mean, bouffons are like, if they think they're funny, they're going to be in trouble.

00:40:56Guest:They're mischievous.

00:40:57Guest:And they have a kind of king that tells them, they're like court jesters that have to entertain the king.

00:41:04Guest:But if they go too far, they get...

00:41:06Guest:It's told off.

00:41:07Marc:Oh, that's it.

00:41:08Guest:So it's about naughtiness.

00:41:10Marc:That's the heart of it.

00:41:11Marc:Taking it to the edge.

00:41:12Guest:Exactly.

00:41:13Marc:Yeah.

00:41:14Guest:Exactly.

00:41:14Marc:Yeah.

00:41:14Marc:Well, I think that Sasha has definitely done that.

00:41:17Marc:But so have you.

00:41:19Marc:Like this show that I watched.

00:41:22Marc:that you're in right now.

00:41:23Marc:Like, it was one of these, I didn't even know how to process it.

00:41:27Marc:I thought it was amazing.

00:41:29Marc:There was so many things happening on so many levels.

00:41:32Marc:Like, I don't have kids, but I've seen, you know, I thought I had a sense of birth, but I did not.

00:41:42Guest:Yeah.

00:41:43Marc:And I was trying to figure out how to talk about it because there's things I've been seeing lately that are happening in that streaming space that are well-funded and well-articulated by collaborators that are brilliant.

00:41:58Marc:And something's happening that's never happened before.

00:42:00Marc:Like I felt it with Underground Railroad.

00:42:03Marc:I feel it with Succession.

00:42:05Marc:And I felt it with this thing that this is like, this is for whatever it's billed as,

00:42:11Marc:this version of Dead Ringers is it's aggressive, a feminist political statement in some way.

00:42:19Marc:That there's so many levels of

00:42:22Marc:how women are treated in the world, especially around childbirth and aging and everything.

00:42:27Marc:And it's framed in such a way that my point is I think a lot of this stuff is happening to the extreme in relation to the way the world is going politically.

00:42:35Marc:I don't know if that's conceived, if it's thought of that way, but it felt to me that this is beyond powerful.

00:42:43Marc:It's got a lot to say.

00:42:45Guest:Thank you.

00:42:46Marc:Did you feel that?

00:42:49Guest:I mean, I suppose the first thing I think of as you're speaking is like, well, I guess succession is wildly entertaining and also people behaving very badly.

00:43:03Marc:Right.

00:43:03Marc:Well, that's right.

00:43:04Marc:But it's a satire, though, right?

00:43:07Marc:You have to take it as that, that we're seeing the 1% in all their horrible glory and with all this sort of heightened Shakespearean language.

00:43:15Guest:And you can't take your eyes off them.

00:43:16Marc:Oh, no, it's the best.

00:43:17Guest:It's because of the writing.

00:43:18Marc:Yeah.

00:43:18Guest:Well, I think that's true of Dead Ring is Alice Birch and the other writers.

00:43:22Marc:Oh, my God.

00:43:23Guest:Alice and Susan Stanton wrote on Succession.

00:43:27Guest:So there is a crossover.

00:43:28Marc:Right.

00:43:28Marc:Well, I noticed it in how they approached the wealthy.

00:43:31Guest:Yeah.

00:43:32Marc:That there was that tone of entitlement and cussing and being beyond the law.

00:43:39Marc:Yeah.

00:43:39Marc:And having no sense of what regular people live like or care.

00:43:44Marc:They're actually more aggressively outspoken in Dead Wingers.

00:43:48Guest:Yeah, the power couple, the kind of oligarch Sackler-like power couple that Jennifer Ely and Rebecca Mead play.

00:43:54Guest:They're amazing.

00:43:55Marc:But I just couldn't believe like the – like there's things about there in that that I learned because I don't know.

00:44:01Marc:Yeah.

00:44:02Marc:Like about like postpartum depression.

00:44:05Marc:Like I'm not trying to make this sound like a depressing –

00:44:08Marc:Because it isn't.

00:44:10Marc:It's horrifying.

00:44:11Marc:It's engaging.

00:44:12Marc:You can't stop looking at it.

00:44:14Marc:You're amazing as two people.

00:44:16Marc:But there's stuff you learn that it seems to be legitimately the first time I've ever seen it portrayed in anything.

00:44:25Marc:Like, you know, it goes into postpartum depression.

00:44:28Marc:It goes into, you know, women having miscarriages, women wanting to have babies that can't.

00:44:32Marc:You see how cesareans work.

00:44:35Marc:Over and over again.

00:44:36Marc:And then you have these two demonic, though empathetic twins who have different intentions about how they want to change the world.

00:44:47Marc:One of them being slightly morally dubious and a bit frightening and wants to figure out a way to gestate babies entirely outside of the womb.

00:44:59Marc:You know, why put the woman through it if they don't have to?

00:45:03Marc:And then the other one who is trying to hold on to her conscience.

00:45:07Guest:Yeah, she wants to do the right thing and she wants to change the way that women birth.

00:45:12Guest:She wants this birthing center that would be bespoke and comfortable and not a place where people go where they're sick, but to give birth.

00:45:19Guest:But yeah, she gets tested very heavily because she takes the money for the birthing center from this incredibly corrupt source.

00:45:27Guest:Yeah.

00:45:27Guest:I think Alice had a lot of fun putting this morally kind of noble, righteous person through the ringer like that.

00:45:34Guest:Because she has to go and appeal to these oligarchs and say, oh, yes, I'd like your money.

00:45:39Guest:And she's taking very dirty money.

00:45:41Guest:So I think Alice really enjoys putting people into these morally really difficult positions.

00:45:47Guest:But I learned so much making the show and all the writers did.

00:45:50Guest:And we had a writer's room where we met.

00:45:52Guest:scientists, androchronologists, embryologists.

00:45:55Guest:We met a longevity expert who told us that death was just a disease that was going to be cured one day through CRISPR-Cas9 gene editing.

00:46:05Guest:And, you know, they talk about that at the Parker's estate.

00:46:10Guest:You know, the kind of what we call near-fi, because it's not really sci-fi.

00:46:15Guest:It's just within our grasp.

00:46:16Guest:I mean, I learned a lot of things.

00:46:19Marc:But it like, well, I guess I should describe it because I was just overwhelmed because I watched them all at once.

00:46:24Marc:Like, I don't even know how to categorize it.

00:46:26Marc:And I was found myself sort of like watching it and think like, there's so much I don't know.

00:46:31Marc:But it really struck me as something about women and voicing things that women, you know, can't really voice or articulate, I think, in the general culture in a very kind of engaging way and gnarly way.

00:46:47Marc:Did you feel that?

00:46:49Guest:I mean, no, because I'm a woman and as women, you know, we give birth and we have miscarriages and it's just part of our experience.

00:46:57Guest:I think what's interesting is that for you, it was gnarly.

00:47:01Guest:And I completely understand why you're saying that.

00:47:03Guest:It's because we're just not used to seeing it on screen.

00:47:06Guest:Whereas we're incredibly used to seeing violence, murder, death, you know, like, you know, and there's so many different vocabularies now and different tones for drama and

00:47:17Guest:About death and gore and violence, which is wonderful.

00:47:20Guest:I'm not saying there shouldn't be.

00:47:23Guest:But we're immune to the horrors of it.

00:47:26Guest:And this is actually about something really beautiful.

00:47:28Guest:It's how did every single human being get here from a woman's body?

00:47:33Guest:It's so simple.

00:47:34Guest:But we just, yeah, we're not used to it.

00:47:37Guest:We're not used to seeing it.

00:47:38Marc:Right.

00:47:39Guest:Because it isn't...

00:47:40Marc:horror it's I mean I think it's beautiful but of course I understand why no I mean I didn't frame it as horror I mean I was just something I'd never seen before and I was a cesarean were you yeah both me and my brother were but like I you know again this is very common experience for everybody who has kids and certainly all women who have had kids but but there was sort of some through line to this that

00:48:02Marc:He struck me as—and I'm just a dude, but there was sort of an embracing sort of defiance to it all in a way in the nature of how it was presented because I was like, wow, I don't even know how to process this.

00:48:20Marc:Do you know what I mean?

00:48:21Marc:And certainly – and the way your character, the Elliot character, her relationship with men is kind of like pretty intense in the way that you're sort of like, all right, well, she's clearly in charge of her thing.

00:48:35Guest:Yeah.

00:48:36Guest:I mean, she is a character to me.

00:48:38Guest:I mean, Alice wrote these two completely different characters.

00:48:41Marc:The twins that you both, you play both.

00:48:43Guest:Yeah.

00:48:43Guest:So Elliot has this relationship to pleasure where she, we were talking about you and I were talking about our guilt or shame.

00:48:49Guest:Yeah.

00:48:50Guest:She doesn't have any.

00:48:51Guest:Right.

00:48:51Guest:So she, she has an appetite for food, sex, men, drugs, drugs.

00:48:56Guest:Exactly.

00:48:57Guest:Yeah.

00:48:57Guest:She snorts cocaine.

00:48:58Guest:I mean, she just like imbibes whatever she can and she gets something.

00:49:02Guest:She enjoys it.

00:49:03Guest:Yeah.

00:49:03Guest:And then she gets something else.

00:49:05Guest:And that's just her character.

00:49:06Guest:I've never played anyone like that.

00:49:08Guest:It was quite joyful to play Elliot.

00:49:12Guest:And then Beverly, on the other hand, is maybe more like we were saying, like she's got shame and she's got a conscience.

00:49:19Marc:Yeah.

00:49:20Marc:A little nerdy, a little controlled.

00:49:21Guest:She's a little nerdy.

00:49:22Guest:She's controlled.

00:49:23Guest:She's shy.

00:49:23Guest:She wants to do the right thing by the world.

00:49:25Guest:And she has a really complex relationship to pleasure in that she sort of denies herself pleasure.

00:49:31Guest:And her sister procures lovers for her because she's too shy to get them.

00:49:36Marc:So when you're, and you're both, are they gynecologists or obstetricians?

00:49:42Guest:They're both.

00:49:43Guest:They do both.

00:49:44Guest:So in the original iconic 88 Cronenberg film, they're just gynecologists.

00:49:48Marc:With Jeremy Irons.

00:49:50Guest:Jeremy Irons, yeah.

00:49:50Guest:It was the most brilliant film.

00:49:52Marc:It's a crazy film.

00:49:53Marc:All I remember are those tools.

00:49:55Guest:I know.

00:49:55Guest:At the end.

00:49:56Guest:For mutant.

00:49:56Guest:Oh my God.

00:49:57Guest:Yeah.

00:49:58Guest:Well, that's quite gnarly.

00:50:00Marc:Well, that's what I remember.

00:50:01Guest:Yeah.

00:50:02Marc:I don't remember the end of that movie.

00:50:03Guest:Yeah.

00:50:04Marc:All I remember is those tools.

00:50:06Guest:Yeah, yeah, Cronenberg is a master at steering things into your memory.

00:50:11Guest:But, yeah, we decided to make them obstetricians as well, so they deliver babies.

00:50:15Marc:And the thrust of the story is that they want to open a birthing center that is, you know, instead of treating women as patients or as ill because they're pregnant, they're embraced and put into an environment that is pro-childbirth.

00:50:33Right.

00:50:33Guest:Yeah, comfy, relaxed.

00:50:35Guest:But the thrust of the narrative simultaneously to that is that these two characters who are codependent and have lived together, worked together.

00:50:43Marc:Identical twins.

00:50:44Guest:Identical twins, yeah.

00:50:46Guest:They haven't separated since the womb.

00:50:48Guest:They're having a lot of fun.

00:50:52Guest:They're living the high life.

00:50:53Guest:They're celebrity doctors.

00:50:54Guest:But they're too close.

00:50:57Guest:It's too much.

00:51:00Guest:For either of them.

00:51:02Yeah.

00:51:02Guest:Well, I think Elliot's fine with it.

00:51:05Guest:Beverly would like to get away.

00:51:06Guest:But the story is about the patient that comes between them and tries to split them up, basically.

00:51:12Marc:Yeah, but there's so much more to this thing.

00:51:15Marc:I'm trying to engage you in this way where it's sort of like, this was crazy.

00:51:20Marc:It's a crazy series.

00:51:22Marc:You know, I know it has a lot to do with what we're talking about, maybe as a man or however I'm seeing it.

00:51:26Marc:Like, I don't think you're minimizing it, but there's a lot of shit that goes on.

00:51:30Marc:There's completely inappropriate insanity on every five minutes.

00:51:34Guest:Yes.

00:51:35Guest:It's a wild ride.

00:51:36Marc:Totally wild.

00:51:37Marc:And you have this woman who works in your house as sort of, I guess, as a

00:51:44Guest:Nanny, PA.

00:51:45Marc:Yeah, everything.

00:51:46Marc:And you don't know what she's up to with the bags and putting hair and Kotex, used tampons in bags.

00:51:53Marc:You're like, who does she work for?

00:51:55Marc:And then how that story pans out, you're like, oh.

00:51:58Marc:And then that has something to do with her losing her mom?

00:52:00Marc:Yeah.

00:52:01Marc:I mean, and then your mom shows up.

00:52:03Marc:Your mom's got the postpartum.

00:52:04Marc:Your mom.

00:52:05Marc:The character's mom has the postpartum depression.

00:52:07Marc:That's right.

00:52:08Marc:And then that becomes sort of a through line.

00:52:10Marc:Then you wonder, and then your sister wants to have a baby.

00:52:12Marc:There's no way to explain this.

00:52:13Marc:It's not just about these two genius obstetrician gynecologists who want to open a birthing center and have to use, like, Sackler money for it, too.

00:52:21Marc:It's so loaded up, man.

00:52:23Marc:I think if there's a through line, it is to sort of assess and confront the way women are treated, you know, in childbirth, but in general, right?

00:52:35Guest:I mean, I'm just loving listening.

00:52:37Guest:I feel like I'm loving listening to what you're saying.

00:52:40Guest:It's so fascinating.

00:52:41Marc:But I'm sitting here projecting on you.

00:52:42Marc:It's not projecting.

00:52:44Guest:It's like you're telling me you're feeling it.

00:52:46Guest:I'm loving it.

00:52:46Marc:But I think you're sitting here going like, well, this man just really doesn't get me.

00:52:50Guest:No, I'm not thinking that at all.

00:52:52Guest:I'm really loving hearing what you're saying because you've just taken it all in, and there's a lot.

00:52:58Marc:There's something in this thematically that elevates

00:53:03Marc:the visibility around birth and around the issues that surround birth.

00:53:07Marc:I don't know if that was the intention.

00:53:09Guest:It wasn't... We didn't have an intention.

00:53:11Guest:We just told stories that we were interested in telling.

00:53:14Guest:And yes, it seems like it's not something that's...

00:53:20Guest:Often told, it seems to be pretty a new terrain.

00:53:23Guest:But in terms of being a woman and the female experience, it's just our experience, we're interested in it.

00:53:29Guest:There was a lot of research that went into the show and a lot of, in the writer's room, we met, as I mentioned, scientists.

00:53:37Guest:We read thousands of articles about...

00:53:41Guest:different patients.

00:53:42Guest:I mean, there are so many patients and stories that we had to leave out.

00:53:45Guest:And then, yeah, the history of gynecology, where it came from, J. Marion Sims.

00:53:51Guest:And I mean, it ended up being a really rich territory.

00:53:56Guest:I guess women's bodies have always been politicized.

00:54:00Guest:So if it feels political, that's why, but...

00:54:03Marc:I don't know if it feels political, but it does.

00:54:05Marc:Like, it's hard for me to look at something, you know, within the culture we're living in.

00:54:09Guest:Yeah.

00:54:10Marc:You know, as sort of like any kind of effective fuck you to Christian moralism for me is great.

00:54:16Marc:So I'm going to see things like that.

00:54:18Marc:That like, you know, I can't imagine, you know, like a certain type of person.

00:54:24Marc:Like especially a Christian fascist person, which this country is full of, watching this for more than 10 minutes.

00:54:31Marc:And because like – and anything that will upset them, I'm happy about.

00:54:39Guest:I understand.

00:54:40Marc:And so that's how I saw some of it.

00:54:42Marc:That's the only reason I think that it's political is because of the climate we're living in.

00:54:47Guest:Got it.

00:54:47Marc:You know what I mean?

00:54:48Guest:Yeah.

00:54:49Guest:Yeah.

00:54:49Marc:And I think that some creativity in this world that we're living in now, it seems like somehow the arts is still one of the only places where...

00:54:57Marc:There's any attempt at real progressive sort of and aggressive satire and storytelling and inclusion that it's happening in real life.

00:55:06Marc:I don't know what's going on out there, but I know in the world that we live in, people are taking chances.

00:55:12Marc:And I think that this thing felt like it was taking a tremendous chance.

00:55:15Guest:it was wildly challenging and but really fucking joyous to make i mean it was really like the hardest thing i've ever done just technically playing two characters in a scene that's you know just that it's how'd you what'd you put in place as you know the like as an actress you know what was the thing at the core of each that gave you because it is like you know pretty quickly after about 10 minutes

00:55:40Marc:You know, it wasn't just about the haircuts.

00:55:42Marc:You know, you definitely personified them differently and not subtly, really.

00:55:47Guest:Well, it was having, like, worked with Alice for a couple of years, you know, thinking about the characters, being in the writer's room.

00:55:54Marc:Really?

00:55:55Guest:Yeah.

00:55:55Guest:And then she wrote this dialogue, which is exceptional dialogue and so psychologically rich that I learned the lines and I just learned my imagination bent towards two different people.

00:56:06Guest:But Beverly was...

00:56:08Guest:She's shy and quiet and careful and rigorous and like scared of pleasure.

00:56:16Guest:I mean, yeah, they just have different energies.

00:56:18Guest:So Elliot's rangy and moves.

00:56:20Guest:And so we always, well, we learned to start with Elliot because she set the pace of the scene.

00:56:25Marc:OK, so you just when when you're doing the work and starting to build these characters, you you really started the script.

00:56:33Guest:Usually in this case, Alice and I had like cooked cooked up the characters in general terms before the script writing.

00:56:40Marc:Right.

00:56:41Guest:So I had a long time to think about them.

00:56:43Marc:Whose idea was it to do this story again?

00:56:45Guest:Mine.

00:56:46Marc:You conceived of this for women.

00:56:49Guest:Yeah.

00:56:50Guest:For you.

00:56:50Guest:Just so I could play them.

00:56:51Guest:Yeah.

00:56:52Guest:I was looking for stories that I could develop to act in.

00:56:57Guest:And I'd love that movie since I was a teenager when I first seen it.

00:57:00Guest:I've seen it many times.

00:57:01Guest:And I just suddenly thought, oh, sisters, that's really interesting relationship.

00:57:06Guest:They could be.

00:57:06Guest:What about that story?

00:57:08Marc:And so that's simple.

00:57:10Yeah.

00:57:10Guest:Well, that's how it began.

00:57:12Guest:I didn't know it was going to turn into like a four-year journey that just ended now.

00:57:16Marc:That was able to encompass the entire experience revolving around medicine, childbirth, mistreatment, and negligence on healthcare professionals, horrendous compromises we have to make morally.

00:57:35Guest:And also see like two women doctors at the top of their game being fabulous and having a, you know, living their best life until it falls apart.

00:57:47Guest:I mean, that's what I loved about the original.

00:57:48Guest:Like Jeremy Irons, he always had a martini glass in his hand and a beautiful girl in his arm.

00:57:53Guest:You know, he was having a great time until he wasn't.

00:57:56Marc:Yeah, but I, for some reason in watching it, and maybe I'll watch it again, I somehow missed the best life part.

00:58:02Guest:Really?

00:58:02Marc:I mean, well, no, I know they got their center, but one of the, like, you know, Beverly was never that happy.

00:58:08Marc:And there was always a problem.

00:58:10Marc:So, like, you know, you were always, you know, kind of in the shadow of whatever the emotional dynamic was between them.

00:58:17Marc:Like, it never felt like a party.

00:58:19Marc:Yeah.

00:58:20Guest:I hear what you're saying.

00:58:21Guest:And Sean Durkin, who directed episode one and two, you know, he did Martha Macy May Marlene.

00:58:26Guest:Do you remember that film?

00:58:27Guest:Anyway, he's a brilliant director and he did The Nest.

00:58:30Guest:He has a great ability to create a feeling of disquiet, like that feeling that something terrible is going to happen.

00:58:39Marc:Yeah, but that's all the way through it.

00:58:41Guest:Yeah, it didn't feel like that on the inside of making it, but I understand what you're saying.

00:58:46Guest:Yeah, it's meant to be disquieting.

00:58:50Marc:So how does this compare to the Yorgos Lanth of most movies?

00:58:53Marc:Like Yorgos, I had him on, and I demanded an explanation.

00:58:57Right.

00:58:57Guest:for him what did he say he doesn't have one he just likes to do those things yeah yeah well he never talked he never like when you're on set he never you never talk about anything are you serious yeah you know we don't analyze he just says do it again faster that's it yeah no there's no way there's no analyzing nothing and if you ask him but why am i and he'll go rachel

00:59:20Guest:I'm your Gus.

00:59:23Guest:You know, and you go, oh, yeah, sorry, sorry.

00:59:25Guest:You don't talk about it.

00:59:26Guest:It's extraordinary how he directs.

00:59:28Marc:Yeah, I liked him, and I like both the movies you're in.

00:59:32Marc:But it's got to be tricky as an actor.

00:59:37Marc:Like I realized this the other day when I was watching my friend Betty Gilpin in a science fiction show where the premise is fundamentally peculiar if not totally abstract.

00:59:50Marc:So all you have to work on is emotions that you decide upon.

00:59:53Marc:It might even not be in relation –

00:59:56Marc:to another character that's going to give back to you in any way.

00:59:59Marc:Do they make sense to you emotionally when you're acting them?

01:00:02Marc:Is that how you have to approach them?

01:00:04Guest:Completely, yeah.

01:00:05Guest:I'm sort of surprised that when you say that they're abstract, that's never really crossed my mind.

01:00:11Guest:Oh, you mean like the lobster?

01:00:13Guest:Yeah.

01:00:16Marc:A little.

01:00:20Guest:It doesn't seem like that when you're inside the story.

01:00:23Guest:It just seems like this is my character.

01:00:25Guest:These are the rules of the universe that I live in.

01:00:27Marc:That's it.

01:00:27Marc:That's what I was looking for.

01:00:29Marc:The rules of the universe I live in.

01:00:31Guest:Well, that's particularly true of the lobster because that you just have a few days before you get turned into an animal.

01:00:37Guest:Right.

01:00:38Guest:Those are very strange rules.

01:00:40Guest:I mean, that just doesn't happen.

01:00:41Guest:Whereas in dead ringers, I mean, people do have C-sections and they are born.

01:00:45Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:00:46Marc:Well, no, that's all.

01:00:47Marc:That's a human carnage all around.

01:00:49Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:00:50Guest:Okay.

01:00:50Marc:Yeah, yeah.

01:00:51Marc:No, I'm just talking about, like, his movies in particular.

01:00:53Marc:And the other one, the... The favorite.

01:00:56Marc:Yeah.

01:00:56Marc:But that's, like, pretty... That was more traditional for him.

01:01:00Marc:Yeah, it was... In terms of storytelling.

01:01:02Guest:I think history.

01:01:03Marc:Yeah.

01:01:04Marc:Yeah.

01:01:04Marc:Actually based on history.

01:01:05Guest:Yeah, Queen... I think they all existed, Lady Churchill.

01:01:08Guest:Yeah.

01:01:09Marc:Yeah.

01:01:09Marc:Yeah, and that was, I think, the only time he did something that...

01:01:13Marc:Straightforward.

01:01:14Guest:Yeah.

01:01:15Guest:They just spoke in an anachronistic way.

01:01:17Guest:Yeah.

01:01:17Guest:So they said, like, modern things.

01:01:19Marc:Yeah.

01:01:20Marc:And they sang a modern song.

01:01:21Marc:Okay.

01:01:22Guest:Yeah.

01:01:22Guest:It was okay.

01:01:23Guest:It was just normal core.

01:01:24Marc:Yeah.

01:01:25Marc:So what about theater?

01:01:27Marc:Are you doing any?

01:01:28Guest:I'm not at the moment, but I'd love to again.

01:01:31Guest:Yeah?

01:01:31Guest:Yeah.

01:01:32Marc:How long's it been?

01:01:36Guest:I think like 2017 or something, 16?

01:01:40Guest:Yeah.

01:01:40Guest:Yeah, a while.

01:01:41Guest:What year did Trump get in?

01:01:42Guest:16.

01:01:43Guest:16, it was 16, yeah.

01:01:45Marc:Do you run lines with Daniel?

01:01:48Guest:No.

01:01:49Marc:None of that.

01:01:50Guest:I tried.

01:01:52Guest:We do it separately.

01:01:52Guest:I've got a thing called Line Learner.

01:01:55Guest:What is that?

01:01:55Guest:An app?

01:01:56Guest:It's an app.

01:01:56Guest:Oh, yeah?

01:01:57Guest:So I had to do it for Dead Ringers because I had to learn two characters.

01:02:00Guest:So I'd lay down Beverly and then say Elliot in the Gap and lay down – it's a good app, Line Learner.

01:02:08Marc:Line Learner.

01:02:09Guest:Yeah.

01:02:10Guest:How are you with learning lines?

01:02:10Guest:Do you find it easy or hard?

01:02:12No.

01:02:13Marc:Well, I don't know.

01:02:14Marc:You know, like I used to be able to do it when I did theater when I was younger.

01:02:17Marc:But when I do these movies and stuff, I mean, you know, you kind of get into a weird habit with that.

01:02:21Marc:You kind of get a sense of them and you know what you need to do.

01:02:24Marc:But you also know like, all right, we're just going to shoot these two pages.

01:02:29Marc:You know, so you kind of cram your head.

01:02:30Guest:Yeah.

01:02:31Marc:Right?

01:02:31Guest:Yeah.

01:02:32Marc:You get a sense of it.

01:02:32Marc:You read it as many times as you need to.

01:02:34Guest:Yeah.

01:02:34Marc:And then you kind of, you don't have to overwhelm yourself because you're doing it in pieces.

01:02:39Guest:Yeah.

01:02:39Marc:Right?

01:02:40Guest:Mm-hmm.

01:02:41Marc:But I'm okay with it.

01:02:42Marc:I can learn lines.

01:02:43Marc:I'm not completely ridiculous.

01:02:45Marc:I don't need to have cue cards posted everywhere.

01:02:50Marc:Could you just put it on the camera?

01:02:51Marc:Just put it on the camera.

01:02:54Guest:I heard that Kojak, you know when it was... Telly Savalas?

01:02:57Guest:Telly Savalas, yeah.

01:02:58Guest:That he used to have a stand-in to do the other side of, you know, the back of his head.

01:03:04Guest:And then when he... Oh, anyway, this sounds like I'm bitching about him.

01:03:07Marc:Go ahead.

01:03:07Marc:Oh, no.

01:03:08Marc:I knew his granddaughter.

01:03:09Marc:I was good friends with her.

01:03:10Guest:But then he'd have a stand-in.

01:03:11Guest:But when he came back, he'd stick his lines onto the forehead of the actor when it was his coverage and just read them off the face.

01:03:17Marc:Yeah.

01:03:18Guest:It's probably not true.

01:03:19Yeah.

01:03:19Marc:Might be.

01:03:20Guest:Who knows?

01:03:20Marc:How did you shoot all that stuff?

01:03:22Marc:Like, the technology now really enabled you guys to do something that Cronenberg couldn't do, really.

01:03:27Guest:Yeah.

01:03:27Marc:The seamless integration of those two characters.

01:03:29Guest:I think the technology was pretty good in the Cronenberg.

01:03:32Marc:It was pretty good, but, like, it just seems better now.

01:03:34Marc:I mean, jeez.

01:03:35Marc:I mean, like, you could touch each other and, you know, it was...

01:03:37Guest:The touching each other is when it got really complicated.

01:03:41Marc:Yeah.

01:03:41Guest:We had a brilliant special effects producer supervisor called Eric Pasquarelli, who's a proper artist.

01:03:48Guest:And he's very, very calm and said, well, what do you want to do in the scene?

01:03:52Guest:And we said, we want to hold hands.

01:03:53Guest:And he'd go, OK, we'll make that work.

01:03:55Guest:We just make everything work.

01:03:56Marc:I like seeing things where I'm blown away.

01:03:59Marc:And that make me understand the struggle.

01:04:03Marc:You know, I think that's in some ways the same thing that happened with Underground Railroad in terms of, you know, framing the history of slavery and the struggle of black people.

01:04:13Marc:Like I'm empathetic, but some things just really plant the goddamn thing in you in a way where it's visceral.

01:04:21Marc:Right.

01:04:21Marc:It's not just sort of like, yeah, bad things happen and I feel bad and, you know, I want to help and.

01:04:25Marc:You know, I'm support and, you know, ally this, ally that.

01:04:28Marc:But there's certain things that just sort of like make you feel it.

01:04:32Guest:Right.

01:04:33Guest:You know, I hear what you're saying.

01:04:35Guest:I mean, I think the process of getting pregnant, staying pregnant, giving birth is just something most women go through.

01:04:44Guest:No, but but it's it's.

01:04:46Guest:I think there's joy and beauty in it.

01:04:49Guest:Yeah.

01:04:50Guest:And I think there's a lot of like joy and jouissance and like, I mean, I don't think it's all about struggle.

01:04:56Guest:I mean, it maybe feels hard because you're not used to seeing it and because you don't, you're a man.

01:05:01Guest:Right.

01:05:02Guest:But I don't, I mean, I, yeah.

01:05:04Marc:No, I agree with you.

01:05:05Marc:And I see all that.

01:05:06Marc:But to me, the foundation of it is that women, the basis of it, the birthing center is that women are treated like sick people.

01:05:15Marc:Pregnant women are treated like sick people.

01:05:17Marc:And they're not given the attention they need.

01:05:19Marc:And they're not given the sensitivity they need.

01:05:21Guest:Beverly is in love with you right now.

01:05:23Guest:You are like Beverly's best friend.

01:05:25Marc:Well, that's what I'm responding to.

01:05:28Marc:Yeah.

01:05:29Marc:And then-

01:05:29Guest:And Elliot would just say, get over yourself.

01:05:31Guest:They're just making babies.

01:05:32Guest:I'm going to win a Nobel Prize for science.

01:05:34Guest:And I want the FDA off my back.

01:05:36Guest:I want private funding and my private lab to do what the fuck I want.

01:05:39Guest:She's like a crazy scientist.

01:05:40Guest:But I love Beverly as well as Elliot.

01:05:44Guest:So we can go back.

01:05:45Marc:Let's go back to Beverly.

01:05:46Marc:I'm not comparing the struggle of the black Americans to the piece that's in Dead Ringers.

01:05:55Marc:But it just struck me that sort of...

01:05:57Marc:The level of negligence and also the level of, you know, not giving voice to, you know, specifically like postpartum, which I've only heard about, which is fairly common.

01:06:09Marc:But it's like a big part of this show.

01:06:11Marc:And then there's also the idea about the morality of, you know, taking genetic material to stop menopause.

01:06:17Marc:I mean, that's, you know, that's not, you know, that's a different woman's issue.

01:06:20Marc:That's not just birthing.

01:06:22Marc:No.

01:06:22Marc:You know, that's this whole other thing.

01:06:24Marc:And then, you know, what is a powerful woman?

01:06:26Marc:You know, in the context of this thing, there's several different versions of it.

01:06:29Marc:You know, one being the heinous heir to that Sackler fortune or whatever the name of that rich person is.

01:06:35Marc:And then there's all these different other models of what are specifically powerful women in this thing where they force you to take it in and to process it and to decide the morality of each one and where they're coming from.

01:06:48Marc:And what is that?

01:06:49Yeah.

01:06:49Guest:I'm loving listening to you.

01:06:51Guest:I'm serious.

01:06:53Guest:I mean, I'm loving hearing your thoughts because I've just been so deep inside the story, telling just things that were interesting, that I found interesting, that I don't know how to articulate it like you do.

01:07:05Marc:I barely know how to articulate it, and I feel ridiculous doing it.

01:07:09Marc:But I just didn't feel like – because I'm not a horror guy.

01:07:11Marc:And from the second this thing started, they're all common among women, but I've never seen them in a piece of –

01:07:17Guest:Yeah, but I feel like isn't that what stories and drama is for?

01:07:22Guest:Is for you to put yourself into the shoes of somebody else and the skin of someone else.

01:07:25Guest:So if you as a man felt some of the things it feels like to be a woman, I think that's kind of fabulous.

01:07:30Marc:And I just love all these men in this thing are just garbage.

01:07:34Marc:Every fucking one of them.

01:07:36Guest:Well, I think Michael Chern is who plays Elliot's best-in-any-friend Tom.

01:07:39Guest:He's pretty great.

01:07:41Guest:Yeah, well, he's... He's not an alpha male.

01:07:43Guest:There's no alphas.

01:07:44Marc:Well, there's a couple fake alphas.

01:07:45Marc:I would say, you know... Well, there's... I think so.

01:07:48Marc:There are.

01:07:49Marc:But, you know, it's not like they're winning anything.

01:07:52Guest:No, they're very funny, I think.

01:07:55Guest:Yeah.

01:07:56Marc:God, so much in this thing.

01:07:58Marc:Just loaded up.

01:07:59Marc:Thank you.

01:08:00Guest:Thanks for talking.

01:08:01Guest:Thank you for watching and thinking.

01:08:04Marc:It's profoundly disturbing and engaging.

01:08:06Guest:Thank you.

01:08:07Marc:Yeah.

01:08:08Marc:How long did it take you to shoot that?

01:08:10Guest:I think it was like four or five months.

01:08:13Guest:Yeah.

01:08:14Guest:Yeah.

01:08:15Guest:And then a long time to edit.

01:08:17Marc:And what are you doing now?

01:08:18Guest:And actually, the person who wrote the music, because, you know, at the beginning we were talking about people we went to college with.

01:08:24Guest:Yeah.

01:08:25Guest:Murray Gold, who wrote all the music.

01:08:27Marc:Yeah.

01:08:28Guest:I was at Cambridge with, and he wrote the music for this show.

01:08:32Guest:Oh, that's wild.

01:08:33Guest:Which is lovely.

01:08:33Marc:Have you been in touch with him the whole time?

01:08:35Guest:Over the years.

01:08:35Guest:Sporadically.

01:08:36Guest:But I just introduced him to Alice, and they got on, and, yeah, he wrote the music.

01:08:41Marc:Now, Alice Birch is a playwright, right?

01:08:43Yeah.

01:08:43Guest:Yes.

01:08:43Guest:In fact, all the writers in the writer's room have a playwriting background.

01:08:48Guest:Yeah.

01:08:48Marc:I've worked.

01:08:48Marc:Yeah.

01:08:49Marc:So I did Glow and the showrunners were, you know, they were playwrights too.

01:08:53Guest:Yeah.

01:08:54Marc:Well, that makes a difference.

01:08:56Guest:I think so.

01:08:57Guest:I don't know how to say how, but.

01:08:59Marc:Because the expanse of their conception is limitless.

01:09:08Guest:Yeah.

01:09:08Yeah.

01:09:09Guest:Their imaginations.

01:09:10Guest:There's a little empty space in a theater and it can be anything.

01:09:13Guest:That's right.

01:09:14Guest:Yeah.

01:09:14Marc:And it just has to be suggested.

01:09:16Marc:Yeah.

01:09:16Marc:You know what I mean?

01:09:18Marc:So that enables them to really, I think, push characters in a way that you're not going to get if you come up a different way.

01:09:28Yeah.

01:09:28Guest:I think that's right.

01:09:29Guest:And I think this series begins very grounded.

01:09:32Guest:So you believe in the twins and their dreams.

01:09:35Guest:And then it gets more and more heightened.

01:09:37Guest:I mean, it's operatic.

01:09:39Marc:That's right.

01:09:39Guest:I don't want to say magical.

01:09:41Guest:But it's like bananas it becomes.

01:09:44Guest:So they all use their brilliant imaginations, these writers.

01:09:47Guest:Yeah.

01:09:47Guest:I think that's, yeah, and there's a lot of dinner party scenes as well, which I feel is quite a theater thing maybe.

01:09:53Guest:I don't know, to have lots and lots of characters all speaking at the same time.

01:09:56Marc:Sure, yeah.

01:09:57Marc:And also I think dinner parties are something theater people do.

01:10:02Guest:Do you ever have dinner parties?

01:10:04Marc:No, I barely have anyone over.

01:10:05Guest:Really?

01:10:06Marc:I'm going to one tonight.

01:10:08Marc:I hardly ever go.

01:10:09Guest:Is it a little dinner?

01:10:10Marc:James Gray, the director.

01:10:12Guest:Oh, he's brilliant.

01:10:13Marc:You know that guy?

01:10:14Guest:I mean, I'm a fan of his work.

01:10:16Guest:He's brilliant.

01:10:17Guest:Yeah.

01:10:18Marc:I'll tell him he said that.

01:10:19Marc:It'll make him go crazy.

01:10:20Marc:He'll be very excited.

01:10:21Guest:He's brilliant.

01:10:22Guest:And have you never had a dinner party?

01:10:26Marc:I've had a couple.

01:10:28Marc:I like to cook.

01:10:28Guest:Do the cats join in?

01:10:30Marc:Well, I hadn't had Charlie.

01:10:31Marc:Usually they mind their own business, but I imagine Charlie would be a problem.

01:10:34Guest:I think Charlie would hang out.

01:10:35Guest:Yeah.

01:10:37Guest:He'd get on the table and eat.

01:10:38Guest:Of course.

01:10:38Guest:Yeah, he does.

01:10:39Guest:He's very handsome.

01:10:40Marc:Yeah, he's annoying.

01:10:41Guest:I had a cat who died recently.

01:10:43Guest:We had to put him down.

01:10:44Guest:He was called Solomon.

01:10:46Marc:That's a good name.

01:10:46Guest:And he was a rescue.

01:10:47Guest:He was called Pedro when we found him.

01:10:49Guest:Yeah.

01:10:49Guest:He had a tag on that said Pedro.

01:10:51Guest:Yeah.

01:10:51Guest:And he was from Hurricane Sandy.

01:10:53Guest:Apparently he'd been found floating down the Fifth Avenue on a crate.

01:10:57Guest:That's what they said.

01:10:59Guest:Good story.

01:10:59Marc:Creation myth.

01:11:01Guest:I think they made it up.

01:11:02Guest:Yeah.

01:11:02Guest:And he just was like...

01:11:05Guest:My son and I said we have to take him.

01:11:06Guest:We named him Solomon.

01:11:07Guest:He lived really long.

01:11:09Guest:And then he had one eye removed.

01:11:10Guest:He had glaucoma.

01:11:12Guest:And then he got a cancer on his right back legs.

01:11:14Guest:He had three legs, one eye.

01:11:15Guest:And then he just got too old.

01:11:18Guest:But he was a great cat.

01:11:20Guest:That's sweet.

01:11:21Guest:Great personality.

01:11:22Marc:You know what's great about cats?

01:11:27Marc:What?

01:11:27Marc:Is whenever you want one, you just go get one.

01:11:34Yeah.

01:11:34Marc:There's never a shortage of cats.

01:11:36Guest:It's so true.

01:11:38Guest:It's so true.

01:11:39Marc:So, you know, whenever you're ready, just go grab one.

01:11:42Guest:Another one.

01:11:43Marc:Sure.

01:11:43Guest:Yeah.

01:11:44Guest:Yeah.

01:11:45Guest:Solly's hard.

01:11:46Guest:He's still kind of mourning Solly.

01:11:47Marc:I get it.

01:11:48Marc:I had two.

01:11:49Marc:I put down a few, but there were two.

01:11:51Marc:Buster was a kitten with the old guys, and they both died within months of each other.

01:11:55Marc:I put them down.

01:11:56Guest:Do you sit with them as they go to sleep?

01:11:58Marc:I did.

01:11:58Marc:Those two, yeah.

01:11:59Guest:Yeah.

01:12:00Guest:My mom used to say they're going to the happy hunting ground.

01:12:02Marc:Sure.

01:12:03Marc:And then just take them away.

01:12:04Marc:No, I mean, like, my parents, when I was a kid, I never sat with any of them going to sleep.

01:12:09Marc:No, nor did I. Yeah, they were just sort of like, well, they're gone.

01:12:11Guest:They'd gone to the happy hunting ground.

01:12:13Guest:That's right.

01:12:13Marc:And then when you're older, you've got to make that choice.

01:12:15Marc:Yeah.

01:12:16Marc:Are you going to hold the cat?

01:12:17Guest:Yeah, we held him.

01:12:19Marc:That's good.

01:12:19Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:12:20Guest:I actually took my son, so he was there.

01:12:22Guest:Yeah.

01:12:22Marc:It's like a painless thing.

01:12:25Marc:But that moment where they, the second shot, you're like, oh.

01:12:29Guest:Yeah.

01:12:29Guest:It's hard.

01:12:31Yeah.

01:12:32Marc:Okay, well, that was a nice way to end.

01:12:34Guest:Oh, sorry.

01:12:36Guest:But I think we're talking about our love of them.

01:12:39Marc:Of course.

01:12:40Guest:Yeah.

01:12:40Marc:Yeah, I try to be like kind of, I'm not cynical, but I get a little callous about it.

01:12:44Marc:But I can't, like this Buster, he had some health things recently.

01:12:49Marc:I freak out, you know, I just freak out because you don't want to go through that.

01:12:53Marc:Even though like they're just these cats, you get attached to them.

01:12:55Guest:Very much.

01:12:56Marc:Yeah.

01:12:56Marc:And he's just sort of like, you know, it's just going to happen now.

01:12:59Marc:Do we got to do this?

01:13:00Marc:I waited too long for one of them.

01:13:02Marc:She just got so loopy and fucked up.

01:13:04Guest:Really?

01:13:04Marc:Yeah.

01:13:04Marc:But, you know, you get in denial where you're sort of like, today was good.

01:13:08Guest:Yeah.

01:13:09Guest:Yeah.

01:13:10Guest:No, it's true.

01:13:11Guest:And my friend, actually, Rebecca, grew up on a farm in Maine.

01:13:14Guest:And she came over and she knows and she went, Rachel, it's time.

01:13:19Marc:Yeah, farm people.

01:13:20Guest:I said, how do you know?

01:13:21Guest:She went, because I'm a farm girl.

01:13:23Guest:Yeah.

01:13:23Guest:And I was like, okay, I'm so city.

01:13:25Guest:I'm so urban.

01:13:26Guest:I'm like, okay, it's time.

01:13:26Guest:It's time.

01:13:27Marc:Yeah.

01:13:28Marc:Farm people are the worst.

01:13:29Marc:They're like, oh, you got to get rid of it.

01:13:30Marc:It's like, but it's, yeah, it's time though.

01:13:32Marc:Yeah.

01:13:33Marc:They've just got this thing about, oh my God.

01:13:36Guest:Don't you love people that have that knowledge though?

01:13:39Marc:I do.

01:13:40Marc:I do.

01:13:40Marc:It makes me feel like, you know, I got to toughen up.

01:13:44Guest:Yeah.

01:13:45Guest:Yeah.

01:13:46Guest:No, I do too.

01:13:47Guest:But yeah.

01:13:50Marc:So what's going on?

01:13:52Marc:Did you tell me?

01:13:53Marc:What are you going to do?

01:13:54Guest:I don't know.

01:13:56Marc:You can do another Marvel movie?

01:13:58Guest:I haven't been asked to.

01:14:01Guest:No, I don't know what I'm doing next.

01:14:05Guest:Do you mean like a next job?

01:14:06Guest:Yeah.

01:14:06Guest:Don't know.

01:14:07Guest:Don't know.

01:14:08Guest:Yeah, I'm just sort of... Yeah, I don't know.

01:14:11Marc:When are you going back to wherever?

01:14:13Marc:To Brooklyn?

01:14:14Guest:I go back to Brooklyn tomorrow morning.

01:14:16Marc:How long have you been out here?

01:14:18Guest:I came in late last night.

01:14:20Marc:Just for this?

01:14:22Guest:Yeah.

01:14:23Guest:Yeah, for this and for an event tonight as well.

01:14:30Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:14:30Guest:Yeah.

01:14:31Marc:What is it?

01:14:33Marc:You have no idea.

01:14:35Marc:You're going to get in the car when they tell you?

01:14:37Guest:It's for Amazon.

01:14:39Guest:It's like launching the season.

01:14:41Marc:Oh, good.

01:14:41Marc:So here's your outfit.

01:14:43Marc:The car is going to be here in an hour.

01:14:45Marc:That kind of thing?

01:14:47Guest:I have a brown dress.

01:14:49Marc:You brought the brown dress.

01:14:50Guest:I'm going to wear my brown dress.

01:14:52Guest:Yeah.

01:14:52Marc:Hair and makeup.

01:14:53Marc:The groomer will come at what time?

01:14:55Guest:545.

01:14:56Guest:Okay.

01:14:57Guest:Yeah.

01:14:58Marc:Well, have fun.

01:14:59Marc:Good talking to you.

01:14:59Guest:Thank you, Mark.

01:15:00Guest:Really good to talk to you.

01:15:01Marc:I feel like I talked at you a lot.

01:15:03Guest:No, you like have – genuinely, it's like the most interesting impressions I've heard from anyone.

01:15:12Marc:Well, thank you.

01:15:13Marc:I was a little shattered by the whole thing in a good way.

01:15:17Marc:All right.

01:15:17Marc:I'm going to stop talking.

01:15:18Guest:Okay.

01:15:24Marc:Okay, there you go.

01:15:25Marc:I did it.

01:15:27Marc:Dead Ringers are streaming on Prime Video.

01:15:29Marc:Hang out for a second, people.

01:15:34Marc:Rachel mentioned being a Cambridge alum with Sasha Baron Cohen, and I talked to Sasha back in 2016 all about his time at Cambridge, the stage and comedy work he did there, and his studies in clowning.

01:15:45Guest:When I was in university, I came up with this character called Solly.

01:15:50Guest:He was an idiot.

01:15:51Guest:Yeah.

01:15:52Guest:He was like my first kind of real character.

01:15:54Guest:Yeah.

01:15:55Guest:And I came up with it one night, and I had my roommate came back, and I go, I want to play you this tape.

01:15:59Guest:And he started really laughing hard.

01:16:02Guest:and um a friend of mine in the sort of acting group in university said he'd just gone to this to this clown course run by this guy called philip goliere he's famous right and he's like the clown teacher in the world people people sort of travel from around the world to see him he was uh part of this school called uh lecoq uh-huh yeah and that's where it comes from exactly that's where the word comes from it

01:16:28Guest:And so I decided, all right, let me try and find out whether this idiotic character I was doing is actually a clown character.

01:16:36Guest:I want to kind of learn about it.

01:16:37Guest:And so I ended up, I left university and studied with this guy for how long?

01:16:42Guest:Over about six months.

01:16:43Guest:Really?

01:16:44Guest:Yeah.

01:16:44Guest:And was it amazing?

01:16:46Guest:Oh, incredible.

01:16:47Guest:This guy is the legendary guru for any person who wants to be a professional idiot around the world.

01:16:56Marc:That's episode 683 and it's available for free in the podcast feed you're using right now.

01:17:02Marc:To sign up for WTF Plus and get every WTF episode ad free, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFPod.com and click on WTF Plus.

01:17:14Marc:Guitar time.

01:18:14Yeah.

01:19:22Thank you.

01:20:23Marc:Boomer lives.

01:20:26Marc:Monkey and the fond of cat angels everywhere.