Episode 1429 - J. Smith-Cameron
Marc:Lock the gates!
Marc:Alright, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck, buddies?
Marc:What the fuck, Knicks?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:How's it going?
Marc:This is Mark.
Marc:It's me, Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my show.
Marc:Thanks for joining.
Marc:Today, on the show, I talk to J. Smith Cameron.
Marc:Her name is Jean.
Marc:You guys may know her as Jerry from Succession.
Marc:She's done a lot of work.
Marc:She was also in the movies Margaret and You Can Count on Me, directed by her husband, Kenneth Lonergan, who I've talked to, and many other films and TV series and plays.
Marc:She's great, and I was thrilled to talk to her.
Marc:Also, today, or Sunday, yesterday, I just talked to Rachel Weisz, and that was...
Marc:That was exciting.
Marc:She's great.
Marc:How long have, like, I mean, she's great.
Marc:And that was like, I think that was the only person I talked to all day.
Marc:And I've been, I've had a week of that where, you know, kit works.
Marc:I go do comedy at night, talk to lip site a few times.
Marc:I don't know, man.
Marc:I just think it's important.
Marc:I got to find somebody to talk to slash bounce shit off of in town and
Marc:go out, do the coffee thing, crunch the news, think about stuff, break new ground, push the envelope, talk about movies.
Marc:I just watched that thing that Vice is in, that Dead Ringers, and it blew my mind entirely.
Marc:My mind just getting blown all the time.
Marc:I don't know if I'm getting old or what, but I'm just sort of like, oh, my God, this is insane.
Marc:Everything's in here.
Marc:It's radical.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I'm going soft.
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:But listen, a couple of things I left hanging, I believe.
Marc:Um, so Buster was actually sick and he had a UTI that might've affected his kidneys.
Marc:He had infection.
Um,
Marc:And I think I told you that they gave me antibiotics to give him by mouth, which is a goddamn charade.
Marc:Ridiculous.
Marc:But I brought him in for a shot.
Marc:And he's doing great.
Marc:Seems great.
Marc:They all seem great.
Marc:Cats are fine.
Marc:And in personal news, I went and got my blood test on Friday.
Marc:This is after three months of pretty strict veganism.
Marc:I might've ingested partial egg here and there with some bread products that I didn't or wasn't aware of.
Marc:Three months as a vegan and really limiting to maybe four or five times in that three months, my intake of processed sugar.
Marc:Because as you know, some of you, if you've been following along that my sugar, my glycemic index is 5.8, which is pre-diabetic.
Marc:My LDL before this, before I went vegan, was hovering around, I think, 125 to 127, my LDL.
Marc:My good cholesterol is good, 70-something, I don't know.
Marc:So I got blood, and I asked him to give me a testosterone test, too, because I talked to some friend of mine who said I should get that, and that's my form of referral.
Marc:Talk to a guy my age...
Marc:who someone told to get their thing checked.
Marc:Maybe you should get that checked.
Marc:So I got all these blood tests and the results came, but the doctor hasn't chimed in yet.
Marc:And here's the thing about the cholesterol.
Marc:After three months vegan, 102.
Marc:102.
Marc:And it's supposed to be below 100.
Marc:So there's nothing I can fucking do.
Marc:My LDL is 102.
Marc:My HDL is 72.
Marc:Triglycerides, 54.
Marc:Non-HDL, 113.
Marc:Total, somehow, 185.
Marc:Which isn't bad, but there's nothing I can do.
Marc:I guess you're supposed to, it's just supposed to be around 80.
Marc:You're, uh...
Marc:Your cholesterol.
Marc:So I got to make some choices.
Marc:My testosterone, 1027.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:I guess that's high.
Marc:And for some reason, of course, as a man, I'm like, yeah.
Marc:Fuck yeah, man.
Marc:Fuck yes.
Marc:1027.
Marc:I'm full of this stuff.
Marc:What does it mean?
Marc:Is it good or bad?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Doctor hasn't weighed in yet.
Marc:So that's the deal.
Marc:So now I imagine he's going to tell me to get back on the statin.
Marc:Why not?
Marc:But then the big question is, what about my diet?
Marc:Do I stay on this thing?
Marc:I've certainly been having a good time focusing.
Marc:It's nice to have an ideological eating disorder.
Marc:Gotten some good jokes around it.
Marc:I believe in my heart that I've probably eaten enough meat for one lifetime.
Marc:But do I get back on the statin and do the occasional fishy fish?
Marc:What do I do?
Marc:Do I just stay with it?
Marc:I feel like people have invested a lot of faith and excitement and belief in me around this vegan thing.
Marc:People are sending me snacks.
Marc:Nothing wrong with that.
Marc:And I seem to have gotten out of the frame of thinking that I should just do whatever the hell I want because life is short.
Marc:You know, you got these just people who barbecue guys, the meat cult.
Marc:The barbecue cult.
Marc:Just, you know, obese dudes with beards and aprons.
Marc:Slathering sauce onto ribs.
Marc:Come on, live a little.
Marc:Yeah, very little, much longer.
Marc:At that rate.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I don't know what I'm going to do.
Marc:I'll see what the doc says.
Marc:It's also my testosterone is flagged.
Marc:I don't know what having a slightly high testosterone means anyways.
Marc:Anyway, so it's all unfolding.
Marc:Blood pressure is good.
Marc:Heart rate's good.
Marc:Everything's okay.
Marc:And I got some text from some guy, not a text, some direct message about how cholesterol doesn't matter.
Marc:But I asked my doctor again, is it still an indicator or has it no bearing on heart health?
Marc:And he looked at me like I was a fucking moron, like a fucking moron.
Marc:That's how he looked at me.
Marc:He's like, yeah, it is an indicator.
Marc:And I'm like, oh, because some guy DM me that I don't know.
Marc:On Instagram about how it doesn't matter.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well, so I guess he's wrong then.
Marc:The guy on Instagram who you don't know, who DM'd you that said cholesterol is not an Indian.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:Yeah, I would go with whatever he says.
Marc:Go with whatever that guy says.
Marc:I've been invited over to somebody's house for dinner.
Marc:Kit and myself, and I bought a full tray, a $35 tray, which is not nothing when you're buying baklava.
Marc:Yeah, I figured, like, why not bring a nice local treat over?
Marc:That would be a nice thing to do.
Marc:And it's basically, you know, it's like 10 to 12 different kinds of the same thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Swipe variation on what the dough is doing texturally and which nut is being used.
Marc:But outside of that...
Marc:kind of thematic.
Marc:All right, look, so Succession is currently in its fourth and final season.
Marc:New episodes are on Sunday nights.
Marc:You can stream the whole series up to this point on HBO Max.
Marc:And, um, Jay Smith Cameron, who is my guest today, uh, plays Jerry and her name is Jean, not the initial J. And we had a lovely conversation that you can, uh,
Marc:you can be part of right now.
Marc:So why don't you just tell me how it ends?
Guest:No, I can't do that.
Guest:First of all, I don't really know because they... What?
Marc:They kill you off next episode?
Guest:No.
Guest:No.
Guest:But they... I mean, I play a secondary sort of character.
Guest:And a lot of my stuff ends up in the cutting room floor.
Guest:I don't really know my story, how it's being told exactly.
Marc:Do you find that disappointing?
No.
Marc:That they cut stuff out?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, yeah.
Marc:I mean, how much does it happen?
Guest:Well, because I'm—first of all, like— Not that I'm looking for complaints.
Marc:I'm just saying, like, because, like, do you guys—how much do you overshoot?
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:A lot.
Marc:A lot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, and they find, I think, a lot of gold that way.
Guest:And some of it is improv'd and they just leave the camera rolling sometimes.
Guest:They don't print all that because they're working with film.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:So it's not like digital where they can just do... Right.
Guest:Right.
Marc:So there's a lot of improvising.
Guest:There's quite a bit.
Marc:Would you do like one take on script and then just go the next take kind of thing?
Guest:No, we...
Guest:No, it's sort of like, I remember when we first, the very first scene I shot, we, he said, let's do it as written.
Guest:And then, you know, after that, we'll just mess it up.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And he just, that was Mark Milad, the director saying that.
Guest:And he was, and that is less true as they've developed their crazy shooting style, like the kind of.
Guest:They don't want it to be complete chaos because it's already this chaotic, cool camera work they're doing.
Guest:But we always get what they call a freebie at the end.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And they use it sometimes?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:In fact, the whole Roman Jerry...
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Thing.
Guest:Relationship, whatever you call it.
Guest:Came from just the camera rolling and Kieran and I flirting and being silly in character.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:In like season one?
Guest:Yeah, the end of season one.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And we just ran out of dialogue, but they didn't say cut.
Marc:Right.
Yeah.
Marc:So that started to happen?
Guest:Yeah, we had a little botanage about something ridiculous.
Guest:And then I walked off and I kind of checked him out.
Guest:And he apparently checked me out right after.
Guest:And they were all laughing, looking at it at Video Village and how silly it was.
Guest:And then they decided to write it in.
Marc:That's hilarious.
Marc:Yeah, I was excited.
Marc:I was excited for it to come back.
Marc:It's nice to have that Sunday night thing again.
Marc:And I think I probably could have gotten access to press screeners of the first four, but I didn't.
Marc:I didn't do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because I want to watch them with everybody else.
Guest:Yeah, me too, really.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, but that's why it's a little hard for me to know, like, whether... Like, there's an episode coming up, but I can't remember what number it is.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where... Sorry, I shouldn't talk about it yet, right?
Guest:But it's coming up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I...
Guest:How can I put this?
Guest:So my character survives a certain situation.
Guest:Ordeal.
Guest:Ordeal.
Guest:And we never really see how.
Guest:And it's just, I guess, this idea that Jerry, my character, is this bulletproof monk and that everybody understands that she would always end up on her feet or whatever.
Guest:But I had pitched myself for this scene.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They went for it.
Guest:They wrote me in it.
Guest:Then I improv'd more.
Guest:It was like everyone's favorite scene, and now it's not in the show.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Because it's not central to the – I mean, I think what Jesse Armstrong's interested in is the family drama foremost.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But he created this really wonderful world of like – Characters.
Guest:Characters and this whole venal, you know, powerful, rich people world that is so topical to – in our country.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Really globally.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it's hard for us non-Roy's to like realize because our stuff, you know, like I feel like I created my character almost out of, you know, I sort of made her up like she like to begin with.
Marc:And what was the audition?
Guest:The audition was some sides that were either going to be for Frank or Jerry or Carl.
Guest:They didn't know.
Guest:And they were like scenes with the boys.
Guest:And so they decided, oh, maybe the general counsel could be a woman.
Guest:So they were also going to see some women.
Guest:And I went in and read for it.
Guest:And I remember thinking...
Guest:that it's great they hadn't rewritten it to be a female character at least for the audition because then I think it was Roman's character naturally was being really coarse in the scene and crude and saying gross stuff and I got to on my audition tape just be like unimpressed with him but it was meant more if you're a girl an older lady like that sort of had but I would kind of wince like when he got too disgusting and then that became sort of a character thing
Guest:And then I got to just kind of—I mean, I think we all did in a way, but this character was really just like, I think, one of many suits they had to kind of create and invent.
Guest:And I'm sure, you know, it's a combination with all of us of what's their writing and what is our personalities and our imagination.
Marc:Well, it's all very interesting because all of the characters are really acting in reaction to—
Marc:Brian's character.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Everyone in the show.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Either whether it's in a scene or it's just hanging in the air.
Guest:It's hanging in the air.
Guest:Right.
Guest:He doesn't have to be in the scene.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's just everyone is reacting in their spineless ways of one kind or another.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:To try to survive.
Marc:That family.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Including the family.
Marc:To stay in the loop.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think I may be the only character who ever really yelled at Ogunroy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:In the scene about the feds.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Cooperating with them.
Guest:And I got to really yell at him.
Guest:And it was really satisfying.
Marc:Was it?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And also the other, the two men that are in your crew, what are their jobs?
Marc:Are they all lawyers?
Marc:Like there's the one guy.
Guest:Oh, they're like COO and chief financial officer, CFO, and I was the general counsel.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So you're the only real lawyer?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, I imagine there's like a whole floor of the huge high rise that's legal.
Guest:But I'm the – I guess the general counsel and I oversee all the acquisitions.
Marc:But what they're doing with like Peter Friedman and David Rash.
Marc:Rashy.
Marc:Rashy.
Marc:It's hilarious.
Guest:I know.
Guest:They're great.
Guest:They're so good.
Marc:God, they're so good.
Marc:Well, you kind of all work together in that zone at times, right?
Marc:Right.
Marc:And Fisher Stevens, too.
Marc:Fisher.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:Do you know Fisher Stevens?
Marc:I don't know him.
Guest:I thought everybody knew him.
Marc:Well, no, I mean, I know of him.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:No, he's just been around a long time.
Marc:He has.
Marc:I do not think I've interviewed him.
Marc:Like, it's gotten to that point with this show where I'm not entirely sure anymore.
Marc:Really?
Marc:If I've interviewed people.
Marc:It might be...
Marc:My brain, too.
Marc:I'm getting older.
Marc:I mean, we've done like 1,500 of them.
Marc:I mean, that's amazing.
Marc:So I assume I've interviewed everybody, but I would have remembered Fisher Stevens, I believe.
Guest:I think so.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:He's kind of a character.
Guest:He's a character, yeah.
Marc:But now I got to ask my producer.
Guest:But, I mean, even if you hadn't interviewed him, you might have met him at a dozen parties.
Marc:I feel like he's one of those guys I feel like has been around my entire life.
Marc:I think I saw him on Broadway in a Neil Simon play.
Guest:Oh, yes.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Like, I can't remember, Brighton Beach Memoirs maybe?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Like, he was the kid.
Guest:I think he replaced Matthew.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so Kenny, my husband, Matthew, Fisher, they all go back that far to like practically teenagers.
Marc:Is that true?
Marc:Your husband, Kenneth Lonergan?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Like he started when he was that young?
Guest:Um, well, yes, he was one of the, I think he was the first year that they did the Young Playwrights Festival.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And he was 18 and they picked his play as one of the plays.
Marc:Which one?
Guest:I mean, no, no, it was not a play we know now.
Guest:It's like a kid, a kid play that he wrote.
Marc:Didn't I just see him like a resurrected play of his with Elaine May?
Guest:Oh yeah.
Marc:What was that?
Guest:That's called the Waverly Gallery.
Marc:That was good.
Guest:Yeah, that's good.
Guest:And she was, oh my God, did you, did you see her in it?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:She was tremendous, I thought.
Marc:Amazing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you work with her daughter now, kind of.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:And also, but I had scenes with her in Margaret.
Marc:In Margaret, yeah.
Guest:And also, I did an Elaine May play on Broadway with Jeannie.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, you did?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What play?
Marc:You don't remember?
Guest:I think it was called After the Night in the Music, and it was actually three plays.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like an evening of three funny plays.
Marc:Wild.
Marc:What's Kenny think of this succession?
Guest:He loves it.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah, he loves it.
Marc:Oh, that's good.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's exciting.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It would be bad if you were on a show that he didn't like.
Marc:I would imagine that wouldn't be a great situation.
Marc:No.
Marc:But you probably have.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, he's pretty, you know, he's pretty, you know, game.
Guest:He realizes that, you know, like on TV, it's not like you're not always going to get quality control about every single job you have at quite the
Marc:But, I mean, just on a language level, this thing is just a monster.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:Right?
Marc:It's thrilling.
Marc:It is.
Guest:And the camera work.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And the – Well, just sort of like there's like – it's like it's a language unto itself.
Marc:So all these characters have to work within it.
Marc:I mean, it may seem natural, but it's totally not natural.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Because I have all these speeches where I have to like rattle off the exposition about – don't ask me what I'm saying.
Guest:But –
Guest:And it's written like you change tenses in the middle of a sentence.
Guest:And it's hard to memorize.
Guest:Yeah, I bet.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, because there's nothing normal about it.
Marc:But because of the world and the nature of the emotional structure of this family and the business.
Guest:And that business.
Marc:There's this chaos.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you roll with it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And there's a comedy to it, but it's perfectly expressive, you know, as characters.
Marc:You know, you don't lose anything.
Marc:I mean, that might be because of the actors, but you certainly, it's not, the language isn't really hiding anything.
Marc:You know, the characters are all fully formed.
Marc:Don't feel like the language is stilted to the point where the characters can't.
Guest:come out.
Guest:No, the characters are all distinct.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And they all have their own way of speaking, but they also all speak succession, right?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's kind of an odd... It's like Oscar Wilde or something.
Guest:I mean, not like Oscar Wilde, but equivalent in a way.
Marc:Yeah, it's something.
Marc:I feel like...
Marc:I feel like it's like Mammoth.
Marc:It's like early Mammoty.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:There's a clip to it.
Guest:There's a world of the language.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:But then the characters also have their own voice.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's kind of like— There's a whole universe of succession.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You know, not just the language, but like everything about it.
Marc:What's going on out there with the fans?
Marc:How's that working?
Yeah.
Guest:What do you mean about that?
Marc:I mean, like, are you engaging with the fans?
Guest:Well, I'm on Twitter.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know if else.
Guest:You're on Twitter.
Marc:I am, yeah.
Guest:Very, very prominently.
Marc:Kind of.
Marc:I mean, I don't do much but promote this show.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I don't engage.
Marc:Every once in a while, I'll do a flurry of things.
Marc:But I don't fool around with it too much.
Marc:A flurry of twittering.
Marc:Yeah, I can't take the abuse.
Guest:Oh, it's awful.
Guest:But I don't know what I'm not sure what's going to happen to it now.
Marc:I think what's happening is it's slowly dying.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's like people don't give a shit anymore.
Marc:It doesn't have this sort of vitality of it.
Marc:People are like most of the people that were very active on it are sort of like, well, it seems to be not great anymore, but I'm not going to go.
Marc:And, you know, but you're engaging directly with the people.
Guest:Sometimes, yeah.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's just interesting, like, this character, there's all these, like, you know, young women or women who have—or older women who have been in careers like this their whole life who really are just happy there's a character like that.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Because it depicts a certain thing that hasn't really been specifically revealed before, apparently.
Marc:Interesting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it's kind of a role model in a way, although I wouldn't think anyone in this universe of succession would be a role model.
Marc:Oh, people love that shit.
Marc:No, of course they would.
Marc:People want to be monsters.
Guest:Yeah, maybe so.
Marc:Are you kidding me?
Marc:Trump has got the country divided.
Marc:People want to be monsters.
Marc:They're just like, it's been unleashed in the culture.
Marc:This sort of like, you know, shameless monstering.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Hey, that's a good title.
Marc:Shameless monstering.
Guest:Well, like the 60 Minutes with Marjorie.
Marc:I don't even know what happened there.
Marc:I didn't watch it.
Marc:I'm just seeing.
Guest:You don't want to know.
Marc:I'm just seeing the backlash.
Marc:And it's just sort of like you can't feed the monsters and act like it's regular journalism time.
Marc:I know.
Marc:It's like when Bill Maher had Steve Bannon on.
Marc:It's like you can't do that.
Marc:I know.
Marc:He's going to make a meal out of you.
Marc:They're going to make a meal out of you because they have no respect for the context.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, but I think that the – I mean I guess the media world, I don't mean to lump them all together.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But that they got sort of spoiled.
Guest:There was just this 24-hour news cycle of all the bad stuff that bad boy Trump did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That they were just in some way must have been in pig heaven.
Guest:You know, like there was just so much to report and they were just so – you know.
Marc:Well, all the media has become page six, right?
Marc:Yes, exactly.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:So like since Trump was Trump in New York back in the day in the New York Post would be excited.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But now that's all media.
Guest:I know.
Marc:That's what it is.
Marc:All tabloid driven quick bait bullshit.
Guest:So that's maybe another reason why Succession is so popular because it's a media company.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:But people are fascinated with rich people.
Guest:Rich people.
Marc:And power.
Guest:And, yeah, people who exploit power.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And also, it's just funny.
Marc:And it's all antihero shit.
Marc:It's like none of these people are without fault that borders on incapacitating your empathy.
Yeah.
Guest:Wait, say that again.
Marc:It just means that all the characters are kind of shitty.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And within the world, you engage empathetically with them.
Marc:But the bottom line is they all got it coming.
Marc:Whatever they got coming.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:So it makes it kind of interesting.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:When you read it, did you realize that it was going to be this amazing thing?
Guest:or you just had a scene i just had a scene wow but i did right away like if i'd been a doggy my little ears would have perked up or my little nose would have started twitching like i knew right away with that scene that it was really good yeah really funny i didn't know what the situations were but i could like the rhythm of it and the there were just some jokes that were really funny and oh my god i just was like oh i want to do this and i was just supposed to be in like four episodes it was a guest star yeah
Guest:And then I ended up being in every episode that year.
Guest:And then I came back as a regular, et cetera.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:It's weird, you know, because like I was like looking up stuff on you and you're you know, this happens with theater people, too, that I've noticed is who've worked in film and television.
Marc:It's like, where's where's the where's the theater resume?
Marc:On Wikipedia.
Marc:I want to see all the plays.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Well.
Marc:I mean, because like, because that's where you were.
Guest:I know.
Marc:Why is that?
Guest:I know it's kind of sad.
Marc:Well, I know, but like some people have the theater or the stage, like there's usually a film TV stage sometimes.
Guest:Oh, you mean on Wikipedia?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Somebody's got to do it.
Marc:I don't know how it works.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Wikipedia is a mystery to me.
Guest:I mean, I'm glad it exists because I've used it millions of times and it's helpful.
Marc:Sometimes it's wrong.
Guest:Yeah, sometimes it's wrong, as in the case, like, I'm scared to look at mine sometimes.
Marc:Yeah, I haven't looked at mine lately, but I had a guest on here.
Marc:I think it was Pam Adalon, who I did all this research on, but her wiki page was, like, not true.
Marc:Like, it was, like, somebody else's wiki page.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, but it wasn't, like, nasty stuff.
Marc:It was just not her life.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I'm going into this interview.
Marc:Is it all mixed up?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Just assuming all this stuff.
Marc:And it's like none of it was, I don't know, it was some.
Guest:My daughter, when she was like maybe in middle school or something, went through a period of going on Wikipedia and changing my age by a few years.
Guest:She didn't like that how old I was.
Yeah.
Guest:I didn't know she was doing it.
Marc:That's a nice thing.
Marc:That's sweet.
Marc:But you say you got to New York, you were around, like when was that Brighton Beach Benmore?
Marc:So you were in that world already?
Marc:That feels like it was a million years ago.
Guest:No, I wasn't in that.
Guest:I mean, I didn't know them.
Guest:I remember seeing the play like you did.
Guest:But I just moved to New York.
Marc:What year?
Guest:Gosh, I want to say just early 80s.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Maybe it was mid-80s.
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:But yeah, I remember, I don't know.
Guest:I'm so foggy anyway.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Why is that happening to us?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I get nervous.
Marc:Like, is it gone for good?
Marc:I was sitting there watching Succession with my girlfriend, who's younger and has a full mind.
Marc:And I got a brain fart going.
Marc:I can't remember Brian's name.
Marc:I'm like, what's going on?
Marc:I know that guy.
Marc:And sometimes it just goes away.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's happened to me.
Marc:It does?
Marc:Oh, yes.
Marc:It's the worst with people you know a long time.
Marc:Now I'm kind of obsessed with the whole memory thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like I had in the middle of the night, I was like, I couldn't remember.
Marc:I didn't even know why it was this particular guy.
Marc:But I was just trying to remember some guy I know.
Marc:And I couldn't quite get it.
Marc:And I was just twisting.
Marc:It was like.
Guest:And it's so alarming when it happens that then maybe your anxiety gets in the way of remembering it.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Don't you think?
Guest:So it becomes really like, I know it makes your blood pressure go up or something.
Guest:You're like, what is happening?
Marc:But I didn't even need to think about this guy.
Marc:For some reason, his brain, his name is stuck.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But anyway, so wait, so where do you come from?
Marc:Where'd you grow up?
Guest:I come from Mars.
Marc:You do?
Guest:You're one of them?
Guest:Maybe.
Guest:Well, I was born in Kentucky, and then my family moved when I was about six or seven, I guess, to the Carolinas, mostly South Carolina.
Guest:Mostly grew up in South Carolina.
Marc:And like Charleston?
Yeah.
Guest:I wish.
Guest:No, Greenville, which actually turned out to be a really nice town.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But Charleston's a really pretty famous town.
Marc:Yeah, it's all right.
Marc:You know, it's a beach town.
Marc:You know, it's kind of a touristy, weird thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, it's quaint and cute and, you know, it's got a lot of charm.
Guest:Well, it's got a lot of history to it.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:It's fascinating, sort of.
Marc:I guess so.
Marc:But, like, it's still one of those towns that's got, you know, streets full of shitty stores for tourists.
Yeah.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Way to ruin it for me.
Marc:No, I mean, I... No, there's some really good restaurants there and they have like... Yeah, I was down there.
Marc:Sort of a cultured place.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:It's Southern, old Southern culture.
Guest:I mean, it's got such heinous beginning of slavery, horrible roots that... And just so much like... It's sort of so fascinating historically.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, I don't know if I dug in to those words.
Marc:I wasn't there long enough.
Marc:But I had an okay time.
Marc:I stayed at a nice hotel, I think.
Marc:I feel like.
Guest:I went there when I was... So I played violin when I was growing up.
Marc:That was your thing?
Guest:I guess so.
Guest:I mean...
Marc:Your choice?
Marc:Not your parents?
Guest:Were your parents already people?
Guest:Yeah, sort of.
Guest:My parents had determined I would play the violin.
Guest:They did.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I was happy to try it, and I did.
Guest:I played okay.
Guest:I mean, I played well, I think.
Guest:I was in it for a long time.
Guest:Anyway, I was going to say that when I was in—I was maybe a freshman in high school or—
Guest:possibly in junior high, and I made it into Allstate Orchestra.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it took place in Charleston at an old, at Ashley something, Hall, Ashley Hall or something.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This beautiful old school.
Guest:But all the other kids in the orchestra were like groovy teenagers.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's how they seemed to me.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:And the other guy I shared a stand with, his name was Alan.
Guest:I don't know what happened to this guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But we were like on our own at lunchtimes and at dinnertimes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I remember this one time we just had to walk across the street to McDonald's because no one took us to dinner with them because we were like the nerdy little kids.
Guest:And we found a place on the fence at Ashley Hall where the spikes had come off.
Guest:It was like a wrought iron fence.
Guest:And so we put ketchup on our white shirts, our uniformed white shirts, and then hung ourselves over them.
Guest:I was like, poor us.
Guest:See what you made us do.
Guest:And they were, of course, like, oh, brother.
Guest:Hope you have another white shirt in your suitcase.
Yeah.
Marc:Look at the dumb nerds with their joke.
Guest:Yeah, their stupid sense of humor.
Marc:But you guys had a good time.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Were you a good violin player?
Guest:I think I was pretty good.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:You know, it was never my passion, but I think I— Could you pick it up again and— No, I think I would need to take lessons again.
Marc:But you could hold it and play it.
Guest:Oh, yes, yes.
Guest:Oh, no, I can play it and I can—yeah, I can play it a little bit.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:But I would need a refresher course if I really need to take it up.
Marc:And how big of a family?
Guest:I have a brother and a sister.
Marc:And your parents just moved around a lot?
Guest:Yeah, I'm not sure why.
Guest:I mean, not just all within South Carolina.
Marc:Not a job thing?
Guest:It must have been a job thing.
Guest:I don't really understand why.
Guest:Yeah, maybe it was a housing thing.
Marc:What business was your folks in?
Guest:Well, my mother was a housewife until later life.
Marc:What did she do later?
Guest:Oh, she was interesting.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:This is in the 70s in Greenville, South Carolina.
Guest:She became a Head Start teacher.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then she went on later and they moved to North Carolina and she worked for a library there.
Guest:But she didn't have a library science degree.
Guest:Like she wasn't – she was just sort of like a – she was just meant to shelve books and be an assistant.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, worked in the library.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But she created this whole outreach program where she would take like a bookmobile but she would tell stories.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And she would read to these kids and she'd dress up like a witch.
Guest:She called herself the witch of Onslow County.
Guest:And she would go out into the sticks and read these stories and she would realize that sometimes the parents were hanging around listening and that they were illiterate.
Guest:Like they couldn't read.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:And they're fascinated.
Guest:And there'd be times when I'd go in the supermarket with her and like kids would just run – and adults too would run up to her like, Miss Mary.
Guest:Miss Mary she was like a local hero yeah she really did make something very cool of her life and she had no college degree or anything she was an Italian American from Scranton PA who married my dad who was a southerner and came down south and was always a fish out of water
Marc:Wow.
Marc:She just took it upon herself to just spread the joy of reading and performing.
Guest:And well, she just loved kids.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And performing.
Guest:And she just loved kids.
Guest:And I think she just, I don't know how to say this quite.
Guest:I just think she related to also to these people that were on the fringes of society or were kind of, you know, like couldn't read or couldn't afford this or that.
Guest:And she just, cause she'd grown up that way.
Guest:She'd grown up in a really poor family.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In Scranton.
Guest:In Scranton.
Guest:Yeah, Italian-American family.
Guest:They only spoke Italian at home.
Marc:So your mom was born in America, though?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, wow.
Guest:But she had to start school and learn English.
Marc:Yeah, it was rough for Italians.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:For all the immigrants.
Marc:It was pretty rough, man.
Guest:Yeah, all the immigrants.
Guest:Yeah, that's right.
Marc:And I can't imagine Pennsylvania was any party.
Marc:No.
Guest:And while it was a big Italian-American component, which I remember the family reunions and so forth growing up, not many of them, but they were just so different than my southern relatives.
Guest:And they were so lively and kind and funny and vulgar.
Guest:and like really good cooks and everything.
Guest:They were all beautiful.
Guest:Like all my cousins were like these gorgeous Italian-looking, you know.
Marc:And expressive.
Guest:They were usually completely Italian.
Marc:Expressive.
Guest:Expressive, yeah.
Marc:And what was the Southern experience with that family?
Guest:Okay, so my dad was an architect.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So I would get to go back to him.
Guest:And his dad had been sort of a really prominent architect.
Guest:Down there?
Guest:Well, he was from England.
Guest:And then he had – then at some point he'd begun working in New York.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he worked – and I get these two guys' names mixed up, so we'll have to check this.
Guest:But I think it was Richard Howell and Hunt, but might be Richard Morris Hunt.
Guest:They were, I think, a father and son –
Guest:architecture firm but they built the metropolitan museum and all these vanderbilt mansions and they and he worked for them and he worked on a lot of those buildings oh wow in here in new york yeah or there yeah there in new york where i live yeah um and then the biltmore house got built in asheville north carolina yeah and he was sent down as sort of a resident architect uh i mean a whole firm worked on it but like he knew olmstead who did the central park they he did the grounds there and
Guest:I've seen pictures and yeah, I've seen pictures of him with his little derby and his like, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Cause he was, he had my father late in life and then my father had me kind of late in life.
Guest:So it's almost like we skipped a generation.
Guest:So I would, I mean, that's a, you know, fascinating.
Guest:And my, the way I understand it, my granny is from Glasgow.
Guest:So he was from Yorkshire.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then my granny was from Glasgow and I believe she was on, she was like a domestic in the house when the Vanderbilt's lived there.
Guest:No kidding.
Guest:And so they met and fell in love.
Guest:And then he lived down there.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:He designed a lot of the courthouses in North Carolina.
Guest:He was like a big, famous architect in North Carolina.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:That's how my dad's family.
Guest:Both my parents are first-generation Americans.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So it's not like multi-generational Southern thing.
Marc:It's just where he ended up.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Because of the work.
Marc:That's kind of wild.
Guest:That's where my, I don't know why my dad went back there.
Guest:That was perverse because then, you know.
Marc:Your dad was an architect too?
Guest:Yeah, and an engineer.
Guest:He would do other related things.
Marc:Did he grow up there?
Guest:Yeah, he grew up in Asheville, North Carolina, which is a really groovy spot, actually.
Marc:Yeah, I know Asheville.
Marc:I like Asheville, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, me too.
Marc:So I guess people just want to go home.
Marc:That's probably why he went back.
Marc:Do you?
Marc:I did for a while.
Guest:I don't want to go home.
Marc:I did for a while.
Marc:You know, I grew up in New Mexico, so that's kind of beautiful.
Marc:Yeah, it is.
Marc:But the weird thing about the idea of that, the romanticizing, the notion, if you come from a beautiful place, like, I'm going to go home, is that your heart's looking for something.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Or it's looking to pick up where it left off.
Marc:Neither of those things are possible.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:You can't go home to what you remember as home.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's weird.
Marc:Because if I go home now, if I go to New Mexico, I'm like, within two days, I'm like, what the fuck am I doing here?
Marc:I got a couple of friends there.
Marc:My old man's still there.
Marc:And I go see him as he kind of loses his mind.
Marc:But, you know, but it's not, you know, I think it's an idea.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But there's also people who are like, get me out of this dusty little town.
Guest:I got to go to New York or I got to go.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I was thinking about going back to New York because I lived there for years.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, that was more my mood.
Guest:Take on it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:When did you leave the South?
Guest:Well, I went to – I started to go to Florida State and I kept not taking physics.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And not getting above a D in math.
Guest:And I kept just dropping them, dropping all those academic classes and just being in plays.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I started getting offered jobs, like not hugely well-paid jobs.
Guest:But I started getting acting jobs and I just sort of gave up the farce of being in college.
Yeah.
Marc:You started getting acting jobs in Florida?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Think of that.
Guest:I mean, they weren't like, but like it'd be like summer theater or like I did like an independent film there that then turned out well.
Marc:So did people find you at the school?
Guest:Well, with that film, they did.
Guest:And then one professor hired, it was called Gal Youngin.
Guest:It's by Victor Nunez.
Guest:It's his first full-length feature.
Guest:I was a teenager.
Guest:And then I worked at a regional theater in southern Florida.
Marc:What town?
Guest:In Miami.
Guest:Well, in Coconut Grove.
Guest:It's not there anymore.
Guest:But I did a season there when I was still supposed to be in college.
Guest:And then I moved to New York.
Marc:So, yeah.
Marc:So, did you take classes?
Guest:At Florida State?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Acting?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Was that the primary?
Guest:It was a big theater school.
Guest:I mean, I guess it still is.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It has an MFA and BFA program in theater.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:It's a proper, you know.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And if you live in the southeast, that's maybe a natural place to try to go.
Guest:Is it a big party school?
Guest:I guess so.
Guest:But, I mean, that all passed me by if it was.
You're not.
Marc:You're too busy.
Marc:I was too focused.
Marc:You're in the drama department.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:Over there doing that.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:With all the misfits.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Marc:Not too many.
Guest:Some misfits and some blind ambition, you know.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah, you know, like, this friend of mine calls, there's a certain type of actor, it's called a chainsaw ingenue.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Well, you know, that really ambitious ingenue that when you're young, when you start out in your career, you just, that's your age group.
Guest:Just eating up the scenery.
Guest:It's like, Jesus, you know, it's bad enough to have, you know, all these external problems with trying to get a job, but then to have.
Marc:That girl.
Guest:Yeah, those people.
Marc:But like, what's like, well, out of those people that you remember who were of that ilk generation,
Marc:Did they rise?
Marc:Did they succeed?
Marc:Yeah, some of them, because they're so driven.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:They're still around?
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:Well, yeah, but now I'm thinking of my whole, you know, all my entrepreneur years, you know.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, some of them definitely, and some of them were flame-outs, you know.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Like some people with the biggest sort of...
Marc:Bravado, you know, they kind of crumble after, you know, the first wave of rejection and failure.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, they don't have to.
Guest:Pushing too hard to.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's painful to watch, though.
Marc:It's awful.
Marc:The ego is fragile when they're that much of a spectacle of themselves, unless they've really got the goods.
Guest:I don't know why it seemed like the audience, like the girls were the most like this, but maybe not.
Guest:I think the boys were still kind of like not admitting they wanted to be actors.
Guest:That's not really manly or whatever.
Marc:That's an interesting thing, that whole not manliness of acting.
Marc:Like I talked to some old timer, I can't remember who, where they were really up against that, where it was not a profession.
Guest:Not a serious profession for a guy.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But, you know, they had to like in film, it had to be made kind of, you know, masculine at some point.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:The whole there was a generation of actors that were had to go out and live the life.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, like the Steve McQueen's of the world.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Or even earlier, I would think like Joel McRae, you know, having a ranch and, you know, all those guys had ranches.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Horses.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, and some of them were crazy, man, in the 70s and earlier.
Marc:Because I read a book about the making of The Wild Bunch, and it's like, not that these guys drank and rode dangerous vehicles and stuff.
Marc:It was like, what the fuck?
Marc:How did any of them survive?
Marc:It's crazy.
Marc:That was the Sam Peckinpah movie in the 70s with William Holden, Warren Holtz, Ernest Borgnine.
Guest:Wow, what a lineup.
Marc:Oh, and it's an insane movie.
Marc:I guess so.
Marc:But it's just, yeah, masculinity.
Marc:Interesting.
Marc:So you come to New York.
Marc:How old are you?
Guest:I was probably 21 when I finally... What was going on there?
Marc:What year was that?
Marc:81?
Marc:82?
Guest:I think it might have been 81.
Guest:Something like that.
Guest:Wait a minute.
Guest:I'm a little foggy on this.
Guest:Because I came to New York kind of for a while and just auditioned for other regional theater gigs.
Guest:You know, I didn't really get an apartment.
Guest:So it was kind of a gradual thing.
Guest:But then when I finally got a job that was in New York, I had auditioned for this national tour of this play Crimes of the Heart, Beth Henley's play.
Guest:I remember that one.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was kind of like, well, I don't know if I want to go on a tour, but it was obviously a well-paying job and great roles for women and all that.
Guest:So I knew I would take it if I got it, but I was kind of ambivalent about it.
Marc:A cast out of New York?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It was on Broadway currently.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:And they were trying to launch the national tour.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then they postponed the national tour.
Guest:But about that time, the actress playing the youngest sister gave notice and they offered me the part.
Guest:So my first job in New York was on Broadway.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:Which was just like... That's crazy.
Marc:Did you have an agent and stuff?
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, I had someone who...
Guest:You know, took credit for that, like because the casting director called and said, remember, there was some girl who was good at that.
Guest:It's good.
Guest:Southern accent.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Who I saw for tender mercies or something, you know, and like and then they had to look it up because I wasn't signed with them.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You know, right.
Guest:And then you were.
Marc:But I guess you were after that.
Guest:After that, I got a good agent.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Was it them?
Marc:No, it was not them.
Marc:Oh, good.
Guest:No.
Marc:They took credit, though.
Guest:Well, you know, what I mean is they took their commission.
Marc:Oh, they did?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Of course.
Guest:You know.
Marc:So that experience, who else was in that play with you?
Guest:Holly Hunter.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:We were both replacements, Hunter and I. And then almost everyone else was, I think, in the original cast.
Guest:Elizabeth McKay played the older sister.
Marc:I can't imagine the leap.
Guest:It must have been just— Oh, my God.
Guest:It was surreal.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It was surreal.
Guest:And what had happened, too, is that in the first cast, it had been Mary Beth Hurt in the role that Holly played.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Later.
Guest:Hunter later played.
Guest:And then my part was played by Mia Dillon and Maya Dillon.
Guest:Sorry.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Maya Dillon.
Guest:And so every time one of the first cast like so Mary Beth had like the star, the number one dressing room.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so when she would leave, then Maya went in there.
Guest:And then when Maya gave notice, they were all going to shuffle around again.
Guest:And the stage manager was like, that's enough.
Guest:Whoever replaces Maya is going in there.
Guest:So not only my first job was in New York, but I was in the fucking...
Guest:You know, number one dressing room with a theater full of women who'd worked their way up the ladder, the understudies and the other sisters.
Marc:It's big and it's got a shower and everything.
Guest:Well, I don't remember it had a shower, but it was all decorated.
Guest:It was the first little floor up.
Guest:It had the star on the door.
Guest:You know, it was like the star dressing room.
Guest:The golden.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is that still around?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I think it's still called The Gold.
Guest:I think it was called something else for a while.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:Maybe it's called The Gold.
Marc:That's exciting.
Marc:Yeah, it was really exciting.
Marc:So then does the career just take off then?
Guest:Well, you know, in a fashion, you know how that is.
Marc:Well, I mean, when you do a play, you're in the play for a while.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:I was in for like seven months.
Marc:Oh, so you just locked in making a living.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:That was a refreshing new feeling.
Marc:And then what happens?
Marc:I mean, how do you become, like, sort of a force to be reckoned with on stage?
Guest:Oh, well, I don't know.
Guest:I mean, that's the thing is that then— Or just working.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, it seems like there—and there's a few people in the succession that are also kind of working New York stage.
Marc:Lots of theater actors, yeah.
Marc:Lots and lots of— That that's a world.
Marc:It is.
Marc:And it still exists.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Only in New York, really, for the most part.
Marc:Maybe London, I think.
Marc:London, yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:In Chicago.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Chicago?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Where people can live and work because there's enough productions going on.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it is sort of a specific and unique community, New York theater actors.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And it's such an old tradition.
Guest:I mean – Yeah.
Guest:It's such an institution.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And who do you find that you're – like, how do you integrate into that community?
Marc:I mean, who are you meeting?
Marc:When did you meet Kenneth?
Oh.
Guest:Oh, well, he's my second marriage, and so I didn't meet him for a long time.
Marc:What happened with the first guy?
Marc:Was he an actor?
Guest:He was trying to be an actor at that point, and then he discovered, like, writing comedy and writing, and he had much more success than that.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:And we split up pretty quickly.
Marc:Pretty quick.
Marc:But he was somebody you met in New York?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Guest:Well, we were doing a play out of town, but yes.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:We both lived in New York.
Marc:But it was a quick marriage?
Yeah.
Guest:I thought it was going to be the marriage.
Marc:Oh, you did?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it didn't turn out that way.
Guest:I'm sorry.
Guest:Yeah, thank you.
Guest:But I have a really good husband now.
Guest:And we're married 23 years.
Guest:That's a lot.
Guest:Yeah, man.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So I have no regrets.
Guest:But at the time, it was awful.
Marc:Yeah, it's a terrible thing.
Marc:Divorce is terrible.
Marc:Yeah, it's a nightmare.
Marc:But so after this play, though, like I don't know if I – I talk to some theater actors.
Marc:I don't know if they specifically talk about it.
Marc:But it seems like you were – you've done a lot of it.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:A ton, a ton.
Marc:And that life is sort of specific.
Marc:How does it sort of – so you get done with Crimes of the Heart.
Marc:And then what happens?
Guest:Well, you just – you start – you're just always auditioning, especially when you're starting out.
Marc:For anything?
Marc:Because it's like – I mean the New York theater scene is not just Broadway.
Guest:No.
Guest:And it doesn't pay very well.
Guest:But you – it's – I don't know –
Guest:what to liken it to, I think it's probably a lot of artistic or entertainment type things are like this where you're building something and you're building your craft and you're getting better and better at it and you're meeting people that are stimulating and funny and interesting and you're being influenced and influencing other people and it's really heady.
Guest:It's like this great, you feel privileged that you're part of it.
Guest:And you're making your rent, but you're not getting rich.
Marc:But you're part of a tradition.
Guest:Part of a whole thing, yeah.
Guest:But one casualty of it is that you kind of have to just go from play to play.
Guest:You audition and you pick the best one you get offered.
Guest:And you can't really afford to just lay out too long hoping to get the lead in the new Scorsese movie.
Guest:You just go from play to play.
Marc:So in terms of film and television, that wasn't the primary focus.
Guest:Film and television?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I really loved theater.
Guest:It's a real writer's medium and also an actor's medium.
Guest:It's really like a wordy scene in a TV show would be like five pages long or something.
Guest:Sure, it's the worst.
Guest:But in a play, you go on for 20 minutes in a scene, blah, blah, blah.
Guest:You're just – yes, and you're your own editor.
Guest:And no one's stopping the action.
Guest:You have to find the light.
Guest:No one's stopping it.
Guest:And you have lots and lots to say.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And so it's really – it's a very creative thing.
Marc:No, it's great.
Marc:And especially if you're doing a new play.
Guest:Yeah, which I did a lot of.
Marc:You did.
Guest:That was my preferred thing.
Guest:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then you're starting from workshopping almost.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:And everything, you know, evolving while you're in it.
Guest:That's very fun.
Marc:It's very exciting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it's a taxing kind of racket, the stage.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, yeah.
Guest:After a while, I was like, I'm never going to get out of this pay grade if I don't like, you know, people who dance and sing can can, you know, land in a big, well-paying Broadway musical from time to time.
Guest:And that's really lucrative.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Comparatively.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But doing plays off Broadway.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Is not, you know, it's like rent money.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So if that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it can you can kind of get stuck in it.
Guest:And so at some point I just had to be like.
Guest:I'm going to try to do more television.
Guest:I remember about the time – well, when Breaking Bad was first on.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:When my friend Alan Ball was doing True Blood.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And we go back to – he was at Florida State when he was.
Guest:And he offered me a part on it.
Guest:And I came out here to do it.
Guest:And he had just discovered Breaking Bad.
Guest:He was like, oh, you have to see this show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I just remember I was kind of by myself.
Guest:My family weren't with me at first because I was just out here like staying in a shitty apartment in West Hollywood and watching like all of The Wire and all of these shows and being like, it's different TV that.
Guest:what I grew up with or what I was auditioning for in my 20s.
Guest:The Equalizer and Law and Order, nothing against Law and Order because that underwrites the New York theater or it did.
Guest:And everybody loves those shows too.
Guest:But boy, TV, as everyone's been saying now for a decade or more, has blossomed and flourished into this very creative, very diverse.
Marc:Well, yeah, the limited series thing is the thing.
Guest:The limited series thing and just – yeah.
Guest:I mean there's shows about every possible thing you can think of.
Marc:But also there are shows where – like I started to notice it recently because I've watched a couple of different – I just watched a screener of this HBO thing coming out based on that Texas murder.
Marc:The love and death with Elizabeth Olsen and Lily Rabe.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Like it's a limited series.
Marc:Jesse Plemons is in it too.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And I just noticed, like, everyone's acting the fuck out of this thing.
Marc:I mean, they're really dug in.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Characters are deep.
Marc:And they've got time.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:To do it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:To make, you know, to deepen these characters to have real arcs.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And transformation.
Marc:Arcs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What a concept.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's like, it's kind of astounding when, you know, great actors can dig in like that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I always think that's part of the success of my show, Succession.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The success of Succession is that it sort of requires the audience to think and listen and keep track.
Guest:And, like, it doesn't explain things.
Guest:It might mention something.
Guest:And then if it nags at you, you're like, what do they mean by that?
Guest:What is that going to lead to?
Guest:And it's full of little clues and Easter eggs.
Marc:Easter eggs, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think audiences are really...
Guest:Love that, actually.
Marc:Yeah, they love it.
Marc:And also like this, I like the, I just like the non-streaming element.
Guest:Oh, waiting for Sunday night to come.
Marc:I do.
Marc:It's better.
Marc:It's a lot to process.
Guest:It's suspenseful.
Marc:Because I've watched, like I've done that sort of thing where, you know, I watched Breaking Bad when it came out.
Marc:But then I'm like, I'm going to watch it again because the girlfriend hasn't seen it.
Marc:And then you watch two, three in a row, and it's exhausting.
Marc:You're not supposed to put that much shit in your head.
Guest:I know.
Guest:That much violence.
Guest:That's the thing.
Marc:There's a lot of— Well, I mean, if it's exhausting, this is a thing that took someone two years to make.
Guest:I know.
Marc:And you're just going to, like, dump it all into— Yeah.
Marc:And you can't stop.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I mean, some people really get a lot of the binging thing, but—
Marc:I do, but it's literally like binging anything.
Marc:Afterwards, you feel tired.
Marc:You don't remember it as well.
Marc:You're bloated.
Marc:Yeah, a little bit.
Marc:Mentally, emotionally.
Marc:But I have to assume, though, do you know Lily?
Marc:I've met her.
Marc:Oh, you never work with her?
Marc:But there's all these characters in the world of the stage.
Marc:Did you get to meet all the old characters?
Marc:Definitely.
Guest:Oh, my God, definitely.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah, it was great.
Marc:Like who?
Marc:Like, who were your heroes that you got to work with or meet?
Guest:Oh, gee.
Guest:I mean, I didn't get to work with all of them.
Guest:But, you know, I got to meet all these, like, great stage actors, Marion Seldes and Zoe Caldwell.
Guest:And I was in this play for a year of my life on Broadway called Lend Me a Tenor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, silly, fun, but it took place in the 30s.
Guest:It was really like a farce.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Really fun.
Guest:Victor Garber was in it.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Philip Bosco was in it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Jane Cannell was in it.
Guest:It was, like, really, like, the royal family of...
Guest:Broadway at the time.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I mean, just the stories you'd hear and like, ah, so great, so great.
Marc:Was there insanity?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, there's some insanity.
Marc:How out of control has it gotten out there on stage when things get awry?
Guest:Yeah, there's been some crazy and stressful things, but just fun.
Guest:I had this play I did as Bees and Honey Drown.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I played this fantastic character by this playwright, Douglas Carter Bean.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she was – turns out to be a con artist.
Guest:And it all takes place in like – I guess it's supposed to be like early 90s or mid 90s.
Guest:And she's – everything's fabulous and it's all Paramount Hotel and all the groovy bars then and it's all Madonna and she's dropping names constantly.
Yeah.
Guest:So it starts off, though, that it's almost just like this romantic comedy.
Guest:And you don't find out she's a con artist till the end of Act One.
Guest:And then Act Two is a deconstruction of Act One going, wait a minute, wait a minute, what were her tells?
Guest:And who was she really?
Guest:And we got to see how she created this persona for herself.
Guest:Oh, interesting.
Guest:And it was really interesting and really fun, but like a talk fest.
Guest:And at one point in that, too, when you are seeing how she's trying to develop this like fabulous club, you know, groovy Soho personality.
Guest:And she's her real her real identity is Brenda Gelb from Pennsylvania.
Guest:And she's got this boyfriend she's in love with.
Guest:He's a gay, but she won't realize it.
Guest:She won't face up to it.
Guest:And he wants to teach her how to be fabulous.
Guest:So he shows her Rosalind Russell, Tallulah Bankhead, Audrey Hepburn, and Liza Minnelli.
Guest:And she, you know, memorizes their characterizations.
Guest:And that all rolled into one becomes her persona.
Guest:So she's this, like, infectious, really fun character.
Guest:But there was this scene where you got to see me, you know, doing these impressions back to back.
Guest:And I'd be like...
Guest:I remember one night looking at Scott, who played my boyfriend, and like, I already did Liza, right?
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:He would cue me and be like, you've got that one, honey.
Guest:Try Lifeboat.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So he knew.
Guest:Yeah, we know each other's lines.
Guest:It's great camaraderie.
Guest:It's fantastic.
Marc:When you're on stage and something goes awry, it's amazing.
Marc:Because the pace of the play is the pace of play.
Marc:And if you're in it, you're in it.
Marc:But usually not on autopilot.
Marc:You're engaged.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And then when something happens, it's like...
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That moment where it's just like, oh, my God.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I watched it.
Marc:Like, I remember certain things happening where things like I saw I saw Gary Sinise's Buried Child.
Marc:And it was I thought it was a good production.
Marc:I don't think it lasted very long.
Marc:And it's a heavy play.
Marc:And what's his name?
Marc:Terry.
Marc:Kenny.
Marc:Terry Kenny.
Marc:You know, is the lead in that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And there's that scene where he walks in with all the corn.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then I just remember the night I saw it, this one corn ear.
Marc:Rolled off the stage.
Marc:Nothing you can do, but he's being upstaged in a very heavy moment by just watching that corn.
Marc:One cob.
Marc:One cob going down, yeah.
Marc:That's a Sam Shepard play, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I remember I was on stage in a college production of Don't Drink the Water, you know, the Woody Allen play.
Marc:Oh, cool.
Marc:It's a big, goofy play.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But there's a scene where, you know, it's at an embassy and it all ends up like a Russian embassy or I can't remember.
Marc:But a bomb comes in the window and I'm this old Jewish guy and it's supposed to land.
Marc:I pick it up and I'm like, what's this?
Marc:You know, it's a bomb.
Marc:We throw it back.
Marc:It's all goofy.
Marc:But one night it just flew in the window right into the audience.
Marc:The bomb just.
Guest:They evacuate the theater.
Marc:Well, no, it was one of those things where how do you, you know, so I try to improvise and I go, what was that?
Marc:And then the other guy goes, I don't know.
Marc:I didn't see it.
Guest:Oh, great.
Yeah.
Marc:That really helps.
Marc:So eventually I just went to the lift of the stage.
Marc:I'm like, give me it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I go, it's a bomb, you know?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Good.
Marc:It's weird because you do have to honor something.
Marc:I mean, you're not supposed to take it out of the play.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:Well, listen.
Guest:So one of my first jobs I got – I don't know if you can leave this in conversation.
Guest:Well, it's –
Guest:Well, let me tell it.
Guest:It's a funny story.
Guest:So one of my first jobs when I was supposed to be taking physics in Florida was I was in this children's theater.
Guest:And it was kind of a good children's theater.
Guest:We did good plays usually.
Guest:And this one, we did this one holiday one.
Guest:That was very stupid.
Guest:And we did one section was supposed to be about Hanukkah, actually, and one about, I guess, Kwanzaa or something.
Guest:Anyway, we did the Christian one, the one about the nativity and everything.
Guest:And we're trying to think how – a little 15-minute sketch sort of as part of this play for these little bitty kids.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so my friend John Youngblood and I were a sheep and a cow in the manger with Joseph and Mary.
Guest:And we get in a little argument because we've got a lot of pride about our gift that we're making, that we're offering.
Guest:For the baby Jesus.
Guest:For the baby Jesus.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think mine was that I was the sheep, and I was going to knit a sweater out of my wool.
Guest:And John was a cow, and he was going to make ice cream for the baby.
Guest:And then we got into this—it was a very weak play.
Guest:We got in this fight about—
Guest:About, you know, we were being too proud, you know, proud, prideful.
Guest:And we ruined our gifts, supposedly, because of this fight, because the ice cream got on the sweater and there was no more ice cream and the sweater was stained and we had a big fight.
Guest:And then the way the play had been structured was that there was audience participation, but you carefully set everything up so that you always get the answer you need for the story to go forward.
Guest:So, like, what do we do now?
Guest:You've kind of put that, you've laid the seeds.
Guest:And some kid goes,
Guest:go behind that door, behind that door, you know, whatever.
Guest:So we're in that point of the play and it was like 9 a.m.
Guest:in some school in Louisville, Kentucky in December and all the teachers are sitting in benches on the side of the gymnasium.
Guest:We're like, we've marked out our stage on the floor of a gym.
Guest:These little bitty kids are half asleep and they had to sit like crisscross on the floor, you know, like...
Marc:Like crosswalking?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:No chairs.
Guest:Yes, on the floor.
Guest:And the teachers aren't paying attention at all.
Guest:And so we carefully set up that really what the Christ child wanted from us was our heart, our love.
Guest:So that had been set up and we're like, no, we know better.
Guest:I have a sweater.
Guest:I'm going to make ice cream.
Guest:So then we set it up so that what will we do?
Guest:What can we give him?
Guest:What will we do?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The answer was very easy.
Guest:We planted it very obviously.
Guest:Give him your heart.
Guest:And one kid who wasn't paying attention just went, kill him.
Guest:And you're not supposed to pick up these like errant weirdo things.
Guest:But I was so shocked.
Guest:That woke me up.
Guest:Like we were all asleep.
Guest:Like the actors were asleep.
Guest:The teachers were asleep.
Guest:The kids were asleep.
Guest:I was like, what?
Guest:I was like, what?
Guest:He said, kill him.
Guest:Kill the baby.
Guest:And then the whole side of the theater started chanting, kill the baby.
Oh, my God.
Marc:The baby Jesus.
Guest:The baby Jesus.
Guest:We were like, no, let's start back.
Guest:Let's start back.
Marc:What did the teachers do?
Guest:They were just chatting.
Guest:They were gossiping.
Marc:They had no idea.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:Just one of those.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:That would be a big problem now.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:You want to make note of that kid.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I mean, he didn't know what we're talking about.
Marc:Yeah, he was just being a joker.
Guest:I think he even just lost his place in the story.
Guest:I don't know what he thought we were talking about.
Marc:Those moments are just crazy on stage.
Marc:I've had a lot of weird moments on stage.
Marc:I bet you have, yeah.
Marc:With audience members or whatever.
Marc:So what's it like day-to-day living with Kenneth Lonergan?
Guest:Well, it's no day at the beach.
Guest:No, he's great.
Marc:But, like, I mean, do you guys—I mean, you were both deeply involved in the controversy around that movie, Margaret, in terms of, like, releasing the correct—
Marc:print of it right and I mean like that that's a masterpiece that movie huh I think so too yeah yeah and it was a hard time when you work when like well you're in the movie but I have to assume that when he's working on something or writing you know how involved does he let you be
Guest:Well, I would say generally I leave him alone.
Marc:No, but like does he want you to read things?
Guest:Yeah, sometimes, yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:But I mean the general rule of thumb is like he needs private.
Marc:Don't bother me.
Guest:Well, you know that thing.
Guest:You must have this like where if you talk about it too much, you won't write it.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Like you feel like it's written or something.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So we just don't talk about it usually.
Guest:But sometimes he'll say, will you read this version of this?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, tell me what you think.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Also, he likes to do readings with actors.
Guest:Oh, he does.
Guest:As a way of seeing if a scene works and like – For film too?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No kidding.
Guest:For TV, everything.
Guest:Like just – that's one of his big tips he tells writers.
Marc:That's interesting.
Marc:Good actors to read it.
Marc:Well, that, you know – Allowed, you know.
Marc:Sedaris does that with essays.
Guest:No kidding.
Marc:Like, you know, when he does readings and stuff?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, he'll make note of where laughs are.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:Well, that makes sense.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Why not make it as funny as possible?
Guest:Where they aren't is more.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So funny.
Marc:So, like, so do you get involved with those readings sometimes?
Guest:his yeah yeah and oh that's interesting all the time because he thinks he says it's like you know it's sort of like a great screener for like where there's too much or where there's bullshit or where something's awkward to say like if you have really good actors they will make it work if it can work yeah like innately they will they will give it truth so if you have really good actors read it aloud you'll see where it lags you'll see where it this and that you know yeah it's really kind of cool system
Marc:Well, yeah, because you can, I mean, especially with movies, it's good to sort of, you know, get rid of stuff you don't need early, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But, you know, with TV, like, it seems a little different because you're kind of looking for things.
Marc:Like, what are we going to do?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Maybe so.
Marc:We need some more stuff here.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:Like, it's a little odd to me, this succession thing, when Logan's girlfriend and assistant, what's her name?
Guest:Carrie?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:She's my good friend Zoe.
Marc:Yeah, Zoe.
Marc:Like, she wants to be an on-air talent.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I was sort of like, where did that come from?
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:Because they were sort of setting her up last season.
Marc:Like it looked like she was going to get pregnant.
Guest:I know.
Guest:She was trying to get pregnant.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because she's giving him the smoothies with the stuff.
Guest:I know.
Marc:And then all of a sudden it's like, I don't know when it happens when you're creating a season of television where somebody says like, why don't we make her, she wants to be on air talent.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because it was surprising to me.
Guest:I think that character is supposed to be one of those Chainsaw Arjunus.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Like he just wants to be famous maybe or – Oh, interesting.
Marc:So drawn to his power and his – Oh, so the baby fantasy crapped out?
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:Oh, you can't tell me.
Guest:Well, you know, who knows?
Marc:Yeah, I get it.
Guest:They have a sequel.
Guest:She may have – Oh, yeah.
Guest:She may be knocked up.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:It was just sort of like one of those things that added a real menace to it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Expelling the old children and just sort of like this idea that there would be this... I wonder if that was just a storyline.
Marc:They were like, we're not going to follow that through.
Guest:I think there's a lot of those in all TV.
Marc:Yeah, for sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, okay, so...
Marc:With Margaret, I mean, what was that?
Marc:Because I don't know that.
Marc:I feel like not enough people have seen that movie now.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What was the struggle?
Guest:Well, Margaret, it was like an epic.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was an epic.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like the theme of it.
Guest:And also just it was long.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I don't think excessively long because –
Guest:Well, part of the action of the play is the tedium of getting stuck in a legal battle that you want to get some moral satisfaction out of.
Guest:And then it's really you get weighed down in tedium.
Guest:So part of the story is supposed to be about that.
Guest:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And also, it's just an epic.
Guest:It's like a teen drama epic.
Marc:Yeah, early young Kieran.
Guest:Young Kieran and Anna Paquin.
Guest:Sarah Steele.
Guest:All these people were in it.
Marc:Allison Janney, briefly.
Guest:Allison Janney, yes.
Marc:Under a bus.
Guest:Yeah, she's so good.
Guest:So many good people in it.
Guest:But it truly is an epic.
Guest:And then when he brought it to the producer for the first time to read, it was like the phone book.
Guest:But everyone was like, shoot it all and then we'll edit it.
Guest:And then that just became tricky.
Guest:And then how to not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Guest:And I think they should just let it be a longer movie.
Guest:It's long anyway.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, but now there's two versions of it out there, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But even the one they were okay with is long.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So, like, it kind of just became a pissing contest, in my opinion.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I sort of—we had a little kid, you know, and we had our daughter by then, and I did not—I stayed out of the real insanity at that time.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But it was heartbreaking.
Guest:Such a good movie.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So many good performances in it.
Marc:Crazy.
Guest:Crazy.
Guest:And such a good—yeah, just a good story.
Yeah.
Marc:But he seemed like I interviewed him and he seems like a relatively socially evolved person.
Marc:Like he's not a brooding genius, you know, it doesn't seem.
Guest:He's kind of broody.
Guest:Yeah, he's kind of...
Marc:He must have been on chipper behavior with me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, he does have a – no, I know.
Guest:There's sociable Kenny and he can be the life of the party.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He's very witty.
Marc:Did you guys do a lot of that?
Marc:Did you do a lot of entertaining in the theater world?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:A fair amount.
Marc:That's fun, right?
Guest:As a matter of fact, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, I mean, when he's working and stuff, he can get in a funk, yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I mean, because, well, writers work.
Guest:He works at home.
Marc:But also, like, you know, he.
Guest:Get out of the house.
Guest:You're just going to get.
Marc:But his themes are, you know, I mean, you know, you would have to be sort of down in it.
Guest:Soulful kind of.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Soulful and.
Guest:Human condition kind of.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The heartbreaking.
Guest:Moral dilemmas.
Marc:Darkness.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, soul-searching kind of stuff.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, no, he's a bit of a depressive.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is he working on a thing?
Marc:Bunch of things.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like what?
Guest:I don't know if I have fluidity to say.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Like he's working on a play.
Marc:Oh, good.
Guest:He's working on two different movie scripts.
Guest:He's working on a TV thing.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:So we'll see what happens first.
Marc:And you?
Yeah.
Guest:Well, yeah, I have a couple of little jobs coming up, but I want to, I kind of, now I'm really interested in maybe becoming one of those performers that write their own material.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, because why not?
Guest:Why not?
Guest:That's what some of the best stuff turns out to be.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's hard to be a woman of a certain age.
Guest:And I mean, that was a wake up call to play Jerry because she was a real dimensional person.
Guest:And a lot of that was my input when I brought to it and what they encouraged me to do and how they met me halfway and wrote for me.
Guest:Mm hmm.
Guest:So I'm like, well, why should I, you know, so many parts, supporting parts or parts for older people, not just women.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:People are kind of stock.
Guest:You know, they're sort of boring.
Guest:And I think.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, you know.
Marc:On film and television.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I don't know how it'll go, but I really want to – that's my next thing is I want to try to create content for myself and my friends.
Guest:Yeah, and like maybe, I don't know, being a little collective that we kind of support each other and write for each other, get ideas.
Marc:Well, it's very interesting to me, you know, a person's place in, you know, the culture after a certain age, you know, especially on film and television.
Marc:Like so much of that stuff, just in general, a lot of TV is –
Marc:limiting and you know it going in you're going to read it and be like yeah that's it yeah yeah yeah uh and it gets it it becomes a drag well that's one reason i was in theater for so long yeah that the the the tv parts were soul killing yeah you know sure usually yeah unless you were the lead and often then then that case too
Marc:But it's interesting what I'm seeing, too, in comedy, or specifically at the comedy store where I work primarily.
Marc:And I had someone in here a couple weeks ago, Kathy Ladman, who's a stand-up who's been doing it forever.
Marc:And she's in her 60s.
Marc:And Jimmy Fallon had her on, which was completely just the presence of a woman her age and proudly sort of gray hair doing her bits and killing.
Marc:You just don't see it.
Marc:And I was so happy that Jimmy did it.
Marc:And then there's a couple of old-timers at the store.
Marc:who, like Tom Dreesen, used to open for Frank Sinatra.
Marc:Good Lord.
Marc:He's got to be in his late 60s, early 70s.
Marc:And Argus Hamilton is another guy that's around in that age group.
Marc:And there's a patter to it that is very familiar to everybody from their childhood.
Marc:There's a way of presenting.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And there's a gravitas that comes with it and they kill.
Marc:And there's like, you know, and it's sort of a beautiful thing that, you know, goes unnoticed because you don't see it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I'm seeing it and I'm like, you know, there's so many voices of experience and wisdom of a certain age person that just doesn't have a place in the culture.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And it is a little disturbing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because I'm getting that age.
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:So we have to write our own shit, man.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What are you thinking?
Guest:Well, I'm not going to talk about it.
Marc:You don't want to talk about it.
Marc:You're just going to do it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, we'll see.
Guest:We'll see.
Guest:We'll see.
Marc:You're going to do it.
Marc:Yeah, I'm going to do it.
Marc:When I'm trying to build an hour of stand-up, I'll just go get a small theater, do a residency, and fucking figure it out.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, I'd like to follow you around and watch that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, but that's what you can do, especially in New York.
Marc:I mean, with no pressure, if you have a crew or you have, you know, a way of getting a few people in there to workshops, if you tell the audience that this is what it is and thank you for being here, I'm glad you appreciate it, but I don't really know how this is going to go.
Marc:And, you know, you can do it.
Marc:People are probably supportive.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:And something real is happening.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, it was great talking to you.
Guest:You too.
Marc:I'm glad you did it.
Guest:You too.
Guest:We have to talk about.
Marc:What?
Guest:Betty Gilpin.
Marc:Oh, what about her?
Marc:I'm going to go see.
Marc:I just heard from her.
Guest:Oh, I love her.
Guest:I was in her first play that she did out of drama school.
Guest:And she is talking about funny people.
Guest:I think she's one of the funniest people I've ever known.
Marc:Oh, a great mind, a great wit.
Marc:Great beauty.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:You were in a play she wrote?
Guest:No.
Marc:Oh, just you were with her?
Guest:Just her first play out of, yeah, I was in a play with her.
Marc:How is that?
Guest:And she was just new on the scene.
Guest:And I knew her parents.
Guest:Her parents are both actors.
Guest:Big actors, yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:Big stage people.
Guest:So they were kind of ahead of me.
Guest:Did you know it was a baby?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:Did you see them around?
Guest:No.
Guest:And they were kind of like a little bit ahead of me.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So I didn't really know them.
Guest:I knew who they were.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And then Betty was just so like beautiful and shy.
Guest:And she played this part really heartbreakingly.
Guest:And she played this sort of awkward character.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then she would just be so fucking funny in the dressing room.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And like.
Marc:Yeah, she's something.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And she's gorgeous.
Guest:Not all of those things go together all the time.
Guest:That's someone we have in common.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:She's great.
Marc:I guess they're going to do a premiere of her new TV show that has something to do with Nuns.
Marc:She just texted me about it at the DGA Theater.
Marc:I guess they're just going to have a couple episodes.
Marc:I'll go check it out.
Marc:I have no idea what it's about.
Guest:It has to have Nuns?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know what the show is.
Marc:But it was very interesting working with her on GLOW for so many seasons because, like, the two leads of that, you know, Alison Brie and Gilpin, really come from different disciplines of acting.
Marc:And it's really interesting to watch.
Marc:Their tools were different.
Marc:But they were both very effective.
Marc:But it's definitely two different approaches.
Marc:And you never knew what the fuck Betty was going to do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's great though, right?
Marc:It's great.
Marc:Of course it is.
Marc:She's keeping it interesting and funny and weird.
Guest:Just her Instagram.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I haven't watched it.
Marc:Is it good?
Guest:Really good.
Really funny.
Guest:I haven't looked at it lately.
Marc:Did you read her book?
Guest:No, she has a book.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:She has a book.
Guest:I didn't even know that.
Marc:Oh, you want it?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I'll give her.
Marc:I have one.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I'd love it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, when you see her, say hi from Jay.
Marc:I will do that.
Marc:I'll text her right after this.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Good talking to you.
Marc:You too.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:New episodes of Succession are on Sunday nights on HBO.
Marc:You can stream every episode on HBO Max.
Marc:Hang out.
Marc:Will you hang out for a second?
Marc:For other episodes with the Succession cast, you can check out Jeremy Strong from episode 1377, Alan Ruck from episode 1270, Kieran Culkin from episode 1150, Sarah Snook from episode 1147, and Brian Cox from episode...
Marc:1090.
Marc:It is interesting that the way you see Logan is this nihilistic vacuum who is playing a game, really, right?
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And I said that.
Guest:In the first series, I said it's a game.
Guest:And the kids don't get it.
Guest:They think it's a matter of life.
Guest:They don't get the fact it's a game.
Guest:They're taking it too seriously.
Guest:They take it too seriously, and they don't get it.
Guest:And, of course, Logan, like all games, he takes it really seriously.
Guest:But they don't get the game.
Guest:So they can't get on to the game.
Guest:And, of course, at the end of the— It's a generational thing.
Guest:It's a generational thing.
Guest:But at the end of the last series, the youngest boy, because he's my eldest of my second family, my heir apparent, Kendall, he's pushed him and pushed him and pushed him.
Guest:And he's pushed him to such a point that he's actually going to have to make some— It's a great ending.
Guest:You know, some time.
Guest:It's great.
Guest:And, of course, he's a proud father.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:That is the beat at the end.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:He's a proud father.
Guest:He said, oh, look, the kid did well.
Marc:All of those episodes are available for free in whatever podcast app you're using right now and at WTFPod.com.
Marc:You can get every episode of WTF ad-free by signing up for WTF Plus.
Marc:Just go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFPod.com and click on WTF Plus.
Marc:I'm just playing basic rock guitar.
Marc:That's what I'm doing now.
Marc:All right?
Marc:It's cranked up the Les Paul.
Marc:It's been done before by me, probably.
Marc:More than three times.
Marc:Slightly different, maybe.
Marc:Slightly different.
Marc:Here we go.
Here we go.
Yeah.
Thank you.
guitar solo
Thank you.
Guest:Whom are those?
Guest:Monkey and La Fonda.
Guest:Cat angels everywhere.