Episode 1424 - Kelly Reichardt
Marc:Lock the gates!
Marc:Alright, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck, buddies?
Marc:What the fuck, Nicks?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:What's going on out there?
Marc:Where are we at, man?
Marc:I have to, I really have to check myself, man.
Marc:I am drifting into zero fuckness.
Marc:I am drifting into giving zero fucks.
Marc:And, you know, it's freeing.
Marc:It's liberating on some level.
Marc:I think it may give me opportunity to to say even more of what I think.
Marc:But on the other side of that, a lot of what I think I might just let go of and live in the zero fuck zone.
Marc:I mean, I haven't got a dog in this race, man.
Marc:I don't, I'm not carrying any debt.
Marc:I don't have any children.
Marc:I don't owe anybody anything.
Marc:And zero fuck is, it's a nice zen.
Marc:The zen of zero fuckness.
Marc:I mean, obviously, there are things I care about, but I'm trying to just stay engaged.
Marc:Stay engaged.
Marc:But what is the big game?
Marc:I've got to do some homework, man.
Marc:I've got to do some homework.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:I'm just a little lit up right now.
Marc:So today, I talked to Kelly Reichardt.
Marc:Now, I've been talking about Kelly Reichardt for a while.
Marc:I watched all her films recently.
Marc:And I just saw the new one showing up.
Marc:I went to a screening of showing up.
Marc:And look, man, sometimes an artist just hits you somehow.
Yeah.
Marc:And I've explained it to you, and I'll probably explain it to her.
Marc:I saw a trailer for her new movie, and there was a moment in it where I was just sort of like, that is so precisely hilarious that I want to watch everything this person has ever done.
Marc:And I found that I'd seen some of them, but I just didn't contextualize it.
Marc:You know?
Marc:I mean, I saw...
Marc:I think the first one I saw was Wendy and Lucy, which was a devastating movie that I rewatched.
Marc:And I know I remember seeing First Cow,
Marc:I believe that came out during the pandemic and everyone was talking about it.
Marc:And I was like, there's something about this movie.
Marc:It's got a hint of McCabe and Mrs. Miller-ness to it.
Marc:And I being a huge McCabe and Mrs. Miller person, I was like, there is just a fine aroma of McCabe and Mrs. Miller to First Cow.
Yeah.
Marc:But so I watched the trailer for the new one showing up, and then I just started.
Marc:I watched them in order.
Marc:River of Grass, River of Grass and Old Joy, which had a moment in it that, to me, was stunning because of the space in it.
Marc:Then I watched Wendy and Lucy again, which was much more heartbreaking than I remembered it.
Marc:Then I watched Meek's Cutoff, which is just...
Marc:period piece that ends in really one of the crazy, most poetic endings I've ever seen.
Marc:Then Night Moves, which was about domestic terrorism.
Marc:And then Certain Women, which was stunning.
Marc:And then First Cow again.
Marc:And then Showing Up, the new one.
Marc:But I take deep dives, you know, like even with music, sometimes I'll hear a group that I don't know of and I'll have to have everything they've done.
Marc:And with Kelly Reichardt's movies, I was like, holy shit, who is this person?
Marc:And then I find out that Sharpling, Tom Sharpling, him and I talked about her on his show.
Marc:He knows her from back in the day.
Marc:And I don't even know what that means.
Marc:To me, Kelly Reichardt is this person that is a mythological being.
Marc:This like poetic, creative artist person that doesn't exist in time and place.
Marc:She's a mystery to me.
Marc:And then I started email with her and then it was real.
Marc:An email makes it real.
Marc:And then we booked the talk.
Marc:And the weird thing about River of Grass, her first movie, is I'm watching it and I know the woman in it from the Lower East Side.
Marc:I got to talk to her about that.
Marc:I'm like, I think I, well, I don't want to say too much, but I know that lady.
Marc:So I talked to her about that.
Marc:But just, I mean, I would just go in order.
Marc:You know, I really would.
Marc:There's a tone that she creates that she maintains through all her films.
Marc:I mean, River of Grass is basically, it seemed to me like her learning how...
Marc:to make a movie.
Marc:But the rest just follow them all the way through.
Marc:She creates space, man.
Marc:And her endings are stunning and satisfying and provocative in a way that is antithetical to closure a lot of times.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Live with that.
Marc:Live with life, man.
Marc:You think there's a button on situations?
Marc:There's only one button.
Marc:We're all headed for the big button, man.
Marc:There's only one button to this fucking story, this joke.
Marc:There's only one tag.
Marc:And it's a long one.
Marc:So, all right.
Marc:I'm going to talk to Kelly Reichardt in a few minutes.
Marc:I'm at Largo, April 14th.
Marc:Don't know what I'm going to do there, but I'm going to be there.
Marc:This is what I do.
Marc:You know, I'm fucking around with about a half hour.
Marc:Somehow I got to make it an hour.
Marc:I don't know where we're going to go.
Marc:I got some ideas in my head.
Marc:Let's start it at Largo.
Marc:But you can go to the link for Largo at wtfpod.com slash tour for the tickets.
Marc:Okay?
Marc:You got it?
Marc:So anyway...
Marc:I go out on a dinner.
Marc:I go to dinner tonight.
Marc:Business dinner.
Marc:Conversation about a possible film project.
Marc:That's like the most Hollywood thing I've done in a long time.
Marc:I met with a writer and a producer about a possible film project at a place.
Marc:So we're talking.
Marc:I'm telling stories.
Marc:Getting laughs.
Marc:Talking about the stuff.
Marc:And...
Marc:And two women come in.
Marc:And they're sitting at the bar.
Marc:And I'm facing the bar.
Marc:And I kind of lose my mind.
Marc:Because sitting at the bar, I think it's that woman who was in the latest season of White Lotus.
Marc:The woman who played the hotel manager.
Marc:And I said to one of the guys who I'm eating with, the producer guy, I'm like, is that the woman from White Lotus?
Marc:And he's like, oh my God, I know her.
Marc:And he jumps up and starts talking to her.
Marc:And then I'm sitting there like, holy shit, it's really her.
Marc:And I'm like totally flustered, starstruck.
Marc:She was so good.
Marc:Her name is Sabrina Impacciatore, I think is how you pronounce her last name.
Marc:And I met her and we're talking me and the producer guy and the writer guy and her friend who's married to the editor of White Lotus telling stories and
Marc:And I made a joke and I got a big laugh at a Sabrina and it was rewarding that, you know, sometimes you realize like when you land one, you're like, yeah, that's why I do this.
Marc:Look at that.
Marc:Surprise.
Marc:Hilarious.
Marc:But it was such a thrill to meet that woman.
Marc:And I'm telling you this because I do get starstruck.
Marc:I was starstruck and I had to sit down.
Marc:I couldn't even stay in the conversation.
Marc:Look, I know the world's horrifying and terrible, but I'm currently in a zero fuck groove.
Marc:It's not a political decision.
Marc:I'm not stifling anything.
Marc:I'm just living in the present.
Marc:All right?
Marc:The zen of zero fuck right now.
Marc:But I do give a fuck and I do care and I do worry and I do panic.
Marc:But the other night, middle of the night, I hear a sound downstairs.
Marc:And if you're a cat owner or a dog owner, you know, when there's chaos in the house, that that means there's some sort of wild animal outside or another cat.
Marc:Something's fucking with my cats downstairs.
Yeah.
Marc:Now, Charlie is fine.
Marc:Charlie's not moving.
Marc:Charlie has taken it upon himself.
Marc:This is the kitten to sleep with me, which is nice.
Marc:And then for some reason, Charlie, who's for the most part an asshole, like all day long at about four in the morning, just becomes this weird, affectionate, just love bug of a cat and starts just rubbing.
Marc:He literally sticks his nose in my mouth.
Marc:He rubs his nose all over my face.
Marc:We have an understanding.
Marc:It's kind of disgusting.
Marc:But then he just purrs and he flops around.
Marc:And then he's up pretty early in the morning and immediately becomes an asshole.
Marc:I guess not unlike me some days.
Marc:But the other two are downstairs, Fat Sammy and Buster.
Marc:And there's commotion going on.
Marc:So I get up in a panic.
Marc:Because I don't know what's up.
Marc:And I go down there in my underwear.
Marc:And my front door, you can see out of it.
Marc:And right outside the front door, like there's a glass part that is sort of exposed if I have the shade up a little bit, which I do.
Marc:So the cats can, you know, experience a little bit of the outdoors during the night if they like.
Marc:And my porch light is on.
Marc:And standing there really like literally at the door are two coyotes.
Marc:Very healthy looking coyotes.
Marc:Maybe on the young side, but the coats look good.
Marc:They didn't look mangy or scrawny.
Marc:They look like two excited, very alive, very focused coyotes.
Marc:Focused on the potential meal of coyotes.
Marc:Smushy and Buster.
Marc:Smushy and Booster were at the doors fucking around with these coyotes.
Marc:And I had to bend down.
Marc:I bent down.
Marc:I look right at them.
Marc:I'm like, get out of here.
Marc:And I start banging on the door.
Marc:Nothing.
Marc:They were literally at the door.
Marc:Like these four animals were having full exchange through this glass.
Marc:And it's weird to see coyotes that close, especially ones that don't give a fuck that you're there and aren't going to move.
Marc:Like, I'm just going to be like, oh, yeah, come on in.
Marc:Eat my fucking cats.
Marc:Help me out.
Marc:You guys want in?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Come on in.
Marc:There's one upstairs, too.
Marc:You want me to go get them?
Marc:But like they wouldn't shoe.
Marc:They wouldn't go away.
Marc:I pounded on the glass and they were just sort of like, no, we're pretty focused on the cats.
Marc:And of course they didn't bring my phone down.
Marc:So I couldn't record this.
Marc:I want to go up and get the phone.
Marc:I want to get rid of the fucking guy who's driving my cats crazy.
Marc:Now I don't know how crazy it's going to get.
Marc:You know, if they're going to break in, I don't think they can, but I don't know.
Marc:See, I do care.
Marc:I do give a fuck about my cats.
Marc:And I get rid of the cats, shoo them off.
Marc:And I had to open the fucking door and, you know, get in these coyotes' faces and tell them to get the fuck out of here.
Marc:And then they went away.
Marc:But that was exciting at 3.30 in the morning.
Marc:The Coyote event.
Marc:Right at the door.
Marc:Like literally could have been scratching to get in.
Marc:I'm waiting for him to come back.
Marc:I will get any Coyote footage that happens.
Marc:I'll let you know.
Marc:I'll put it on the Instagram.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So Kelly Reichardt is a real artist artist.
Marc:poetic genius of film.
Marc:And I was very excited to talk to her.
Marc:Her new movie showing up opens in theaters tomorrow.
Marc:And it was very enjoyable.
Marc:And it actually is probably the happiest ending that she's achieved.
Marc:And this is my conversation with Kelly Reichardt.
Guest:Here's what happens.
Marc:So I see a coming attraction for the new one, for a trailer for showing up.
Marc:And there was a moment in it that I thought was so acute and perceptive that I just, like, I had to watch every one of your movies because of one moment in the trailer.
Marc:Now, I had seen, you know, Wendy and Lucy when it came out, I think.
Marc:And I had seen First Cow, but I never put them together as, you know, I never connected the tissue of you and your work.
Marc:So that one moment where that guy's digging that hole...
Marc:In showing up.
Marc:And he says, what is it?
Marc:It's a big work, an important work.
Marc:What does he say?
Guest:He says, it's a piece, a very important piece.
Marc:That was it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:A very important piece.
Marc:And then once I realized it was about artists, and I dated a painter for years.
Marc:And there was something about that moment that sort of revealed the kind of delusion that an artist has to have in order to believe that their work is relevant.
Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:All of us.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I thought it was so hilarious in that moment without any context, right?
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:So then I'm like, oh, my God, who is this person who made this movie?
Marc:And then I realized, like, okay, I'd seen First Cow when it came out.
Marc:And even that one, I just went through this thing with First Cow this morning because, like, I'm a McCabe and Mrs. Miller fanatic.
Marc:Like, I watch it twice a year.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You?
Yeah.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But not of course.
Guest:It's a comfort.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But a lot of people don't really know that movie.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I feel like it's very beloved, no?
Guest:I guess.
Guest:Well, a lot of filmmakers love the look of that movie and would like to...
Guest:Not that you today would go through the steps to get the same look of that film.
Guest:And also it's kind of the beginning of that sort of sound mixing where everybody's sounds are important.
Marc:The layers of conversation, bits and pieces.
Guest:How did you see First Cow?
Guest:Because, you know, we opened on COVID weekend.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I saw it when it came out, when it was available for streaming, I would imagine.
Marc:And then I watched it again.
Marc:So I watched it again recently.
Marc:And I watched McCabe again.
Marc:To the point where I hallucinated.
Marc:Well, I know Rene... Abougemois.
Marc:Abougemois is obviously in McCabe.
Marc:He's a huge part of McCabe.
Marc:And he's sort of a character in First Cow.
Marc:Not an important one, but his presence means something.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But then I thought I saw another guy from McCabe, but it wasn't him.
Guest:I wonder who that was.
Marc:Well, I thought the guy who played the drunk in McCabe was one of the guys online waiting for donuts.
Marc:But apparently that guy's been dead a while.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Renee was in this other film.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We did A Certain Women.
Marc:That's a great movie.
Guest:Yeah, I loved him.
Guest:And when I am teaching, I would play that bar scene in McCabe.
Marc:Which one?
Guest:The first one where he first comes to town.
Marc:Where he says, I hear that's Pudgy McCabe?
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:But with no picture.
Guest:So the kids are just listening to like, and then they have to say what the season is, what the setting is, what the room is, and they can get it all.
Marc:Without seeing the visual, just hearing the audio.
Guest:So I have Rene's voice so much in my head, you know, and I just think he's an amazing – in that film, I just love his character so much.
Marc:But I feel that in First Cow, that after I watched both of them, again, fairly closely in time, that was your homage and interpretation of a similar story, even in Look.
Right.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And I mean, we're building a town of there's a little town that he's in and there's like four residents and he's already feeling like you feel about the leaf blower.
Guest:He's already feeling like crunched in.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So.
Marc:So those have been my experiences.
Marc:And then when I decide to go back and watch all of your movies, I'm watching River of Grass.
Marc:And I'm like, oh, my God, I know that woman.
Marc:That's Lisa Bowman.
Marc:I used to live on Second Avenue.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:Or on Second Street between A and B. And she worked at Two Boots Pizza.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's so funny.
Marc:And we kind of went on a date or two.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:That's hilarious.
Marc:And I hadn't seen her in forever.
Marc:I'm like, what the fuck?
Marc:When did this happen?
Marc:I mean, I guess I wouldn't have really known.
Marc:But it happened years later.
Marc:I was there 89 to 91.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Yeah, that was 93.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, either way, I was sort of like, she wasn't an actress when I knew her.
Guest:No, she was a waitress at Two Boots.
Marc:Yeah, a painter, an artist, a visual artist.
Guest:And she runs a gallery out here now.
Guest:I know.
Marc:She got in touch with me when I talked about it.
Guest:Oh, that's so funny.
Guest:I slept on her, crashed in her little one-room apartment many, many times.
Guest:She was very, but yeah, she was a waitress at Two Boots.
Marc:And she did the soaps.
Marc:You remember her art?
Guest:Oh, that's right.
Guest:I forgot about those.
Marc:She used to put dirty words on the used soaps.
Guest:I forgot about that.
Marc:And then she did paintings on latex.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:Yeah, I had one of those.
Guest:That's so funny.
Marc:It didn't age well.
Marc:It got stuck and disintegrated.
Marc:The materials weren't.
Guest:I forgot about the soaps.
Marc:Yeah, the soaps were kind of clever.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, she was kind of a character.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, she's great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so, yeah, the real actress bailed when I was on the drive down to Florida to make the movie.
Guest:And I pulled over to a rush stop and I called Lisa Bowman from a pay phone and said, could you get two weeks off work and come down here?
Guest:She's like, I don't know.
Guest:I got to check.
Marc:Yeah, from Two Boots.
Guest:From Two Boots.
Guest:And then she did and she came.
Marc:Wild.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:So when you teach a class, do you still teach like every semester?
Guest:No, one semester a year.
Marc:And what's the class called?
Guest:I teach two classes.
Guest:One's called Gesture, Light, and Motion, and one's called Script to Screen.
Guest:And in that class, the students remake a feature film.
Guest:Like they each get 10 minutes of it, and they do it their own way, and then we Frankenstein it together at the end of the semester.
Marc:Is it all from the same film?
Guest:It's different every semester.
Guest:But it's all one film.
Guest:Yeah, it's one film.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Guest:So that's a fun class.
Marc:Is that your conception?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you take a feature film and each student gets a piece of it?
Guest:Ten minutes.
Guest:And then they cast it however they want and shoot it however they want.
Guest:And then we put the whole thing together.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:And you watch it?
Guest:And we watch it on the last day.
Marc:But so where do you come from?
Marc:Where do you start to desire to make films?
Yeah.
Guest:I come from Miami, Florida.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:From a cop family.
Guest:Law enforcement.
Guest:Law enforcement.
Guest:How was that?
Guest:How many sibs you got?
Guest:I got a full sister who's two years older, lives in Rhode Island.
Guest:And my dad is Jerry and my older sister is Terry.
Guest:And my sister that's 15 years younger than me that's a half sister is Carrie.
Guest:And I have a stepbrother.
Guest:Is everyone still around?
Guest:Everyone is still around.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean.
Marc:In Florida?
Guest:No.
Guest:My mother and my stepfather live in the villages in Florida.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And my dad.
Guest:It's like its own city.
Guest:It is.
Guest:I think it's what turned Florida from purple to red.
Marc:Was the villages.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, it's huge.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And my dear old dad is in Colorado.
Guest:And, yeah, randomly retired.
Guest:And they were both cops?
Guest:My mother was an undercover narcotics agent.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:My stepfather was an FBI agent.
Guest:My dad was a crime scene detective.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:And so—
Guest:Anyway, I don't know how people know.
Guest:I was trying to think about this, how you know when you just have an idea that the main goal is just get out of Florida.
Guest:Just a sense like something is going on somewhere else.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think my sister had a boyfriend whose sister used to come visit, and she was from New York.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And so there was that little... Your older sister?
Guest:My older sister, yeah.
Guest:And so she seemed different than other people, this woman, girl from New York.
Guest:And then...
Guest:And from Mars, this girl came to our high school, Annika Anderson, and she started going out with my friend Aristotle Pachinakis.
Guest:From Mars?
Guest:Well, she was from Sweden.
Guest:But, you know, she was from Mars to me.
Guest:Like, she turned me on to David Bowie.
Guest:And she was clearly just going to be in Miami for a minute.
Guest:And then she was going to New York.
Guest:And so I sort of followed her.
Guest:And she worked on, when Christo came to rap the islands in the Bay, she volunteered for that and worked on it.
Guest:And so she took me to the rap party for that.
Guest:To the rap of the rap?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And those people were all from, and I was like, oh, I knew it.
Guest:Something else is going on.
Marc:That's pretty exciting.
Marc:Something else is going on for it to be like Christos rapping.
Guest:But if you're in Miami, it's amazing.
Guest:No, I had no access to art at all.
Guest:I mean, I remember Thurston Moore.
Guest:His mom lived in Coral Gables and he told me he remembered seeing an ad in the Miami Herald that said, if anybody has heard of the clash, please call me.
Marc:So, you know, it was very.
Marc:But I like that it's Christo because that's so extreme and so profound.
Marc:It's provocative, but it's massive.
Marc:It is.
Marc:And there is no explanation for it.
Marc:So as a young mind, it is profoundly art and profoundly huge, but you have to decide your own meaning and effect.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:But it wasn't even that, to me, the thing.
Guest:Like, I didn't know what to think about the thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I thought it was beautiful, but there was a lot of talk about how bad it was for the birds and the fish.
Guest:But it was that those people at the party—
Guest:First of all, I can remember I went there and I sat on a couch.
Guest:I was shy.
Guest:I must have been 16 at this time.
Guest:Already on the way out of high school.
Guest:Didn't make it to the end.
Guest:And I didn't understand about the brownies being hash brownies.
Guest:And that probably added to the feeling of like, I'm just sitting there going, this is just totally different.
Guest:But it was that they were all in on something that was happening.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And as opposed to... Florida.
Guest:Miami, like in the early 80s, which was just like... Wow, a real shit show drug-wise.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:In terms of your household, given the nature of the law enforcement, was there menace?
Guest:Yeah, it was chaos.
Guest:Yeah, we were quite a...
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, yeah, that's—none of the kids graduated.
Guest:From high school?
Guest:Put it this way.
Guest:Yeah, we all got out early.
Guest:It wasn't—I mean, it got out of the house very early.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I thought I'd, you know, just got to go to New York.
Marc:You got David Bowie from Annika.
Guest:Annika.
Marc:From Mars.
Marc:And then the Christo experience.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so then I—
Marc:And you said, oh, your sister's friend from New York.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So I... Oh, it takes us a few... A few people.
Marc:...cool older people.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:To be like, I gotta go.
Guest:And then I went to New York.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Aristotle Pachinakis, he had... That guy with the best name in the world.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was squatting... This is my first view of New York.
Guest:He was squatting on Avenue C. Oh, my God.
Guest:And what?
Guest:This is 1982?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And I...
Guest:I spent one night there and I was like, there was no windows.
Guest:There was like a junkie in the, I sleep on the floor and a rat ran across me.
Guest:And I was like, I can't handle New York.
Guest:It's too much.
Guest:And I ended up in Boston just because I knew there was an empty apartment there.
Guest:Why?
Guest:How was that?
Guest:A girl I worked at the clog shop with in Miami.
Guest:The clog shop?
Guest:Clog.
Guest:Clog.
Guest:Eskils Clogs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She was going to be in Florida for a break and she was going to BU.
Guest:So she said, you could come stay in my apartment for two weeks.
Guest:And I went to Boston.
Guest:Life changer.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had never seen snow before.
Guest:It was Christmas break.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had no clothes for snow.
Marc:And this was like 82?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:At this point, maybe it's 83.
Guest:I can't remember.
Guest:I was there.
Guest:And so this is my first night of my new life.
Guest:I'm sitting there in this apartment.
Guest:It's snowing and I'm looking out the window and I say, wow, you know, I really want to be a filmmaker.
Guest:I wonder how you start a new.
Guest:How do you do this?
Marc:And you decided filmmaker that day?
Guest:I was really into photography, and I wanted to—I don't know what the influence was at all.
Guest:Like in shooting?
Guest:Yeah, I was like— You were the— School photographer, taking photography classes.
Marc:And had you appreciated photography as art?
Marc:Did you have people you were fans of at that point?
Guest:I didn't know any art at all, period.
Guest:My dad took a lot of crime scene photos, and he used to give me the film as soon as it was— So did you grow up looking at crime scene photos?
Guest:Totally, yeah, from a very young age.
Oh, no.
Guest:But but he as soon as the film was expired.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He would give me the film.
Guest:And so I had my Pentax K1000.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I had gone to took a class at Miami Dade Community College.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And took a class at Bob Rich Photo Studios slash porn shop.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In Miami.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Anyway.
Marc:So you were processing your own stuff.
Guest:Yeah, and I was thinking, well, it'd be cool to, I don't know where the idea of movies came from, actually, but it would be cool to have this stuff moving and, you know, like I had a Super 8 camera, so this would be.
Marc:And did you, like, where are all these photographs?
Marc:Do you still have them?
Marc:Have you shown them?
Guest:No.
Guest:I destroyed them out of.
Guest:So when I got to Boston, I'm sitting there in my snow night, first night of my new life.
Guest:And someone comes to the door and I answer the door and there's like these two people there.
Guest:I can't make out who they are, like shaved heads.
Guest:And I mean, I never had no punk reference.
Marc:Oh, it wasn't the creationists?
Guest:No, it was like the army boots and the Salvation Army dresses.
Guest:And their freezer was broken.
Guest:They were keeping some meat in the fridge here at this girl's house.
Guest:And they invited me over to come eat spaghetti with them.
Guest:So I go over to their house and there's a bunch of other people look just like them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they're having this spaghetti dinner because they want to make an art project for an art party that's happening in May.
Guest:They all want to make films and none of them know how to make films.
Guest:And they're having this meeting tonight to figure out how they could make this film project.
Guest:And so they just started picking me up every night and taking me to shows and stuff.
Guest:And I ended up moving in with them to make these...
Guest:films for them on super eight on super eight so i went so i signed up to night class at mass art so i could get the camera right and then i ended up using those films to go i ended up at the museum school i just followed some guy to the museum school and uh and then just got a painting school yeah from the films i had made but i saw um all these fassbender films i saw all this uh saji ray yeah like the birds took me
Guest:Forever.
Guest:And then there was the brattle.
Guest:So then I got to ride my bike to the brattle.
Marc:Over in Cambridge.
Guest:And that was my film education.
Guest:I'd go to drive my bike to.
Marc:It's a good one though.
Guest:It was great.
Guest:They would have a different double feature like every other night.
Guest:You could just.
Guest:At the brattle.
Guest:At the brattle.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I went back to Boston with First Cow.
Guest:It's not the same.
Guest:I didn't recognize.
Guest:I had no memory.
Guest:I had no feeling.
Guest:No, it's not there anymore.
Guest:I couldn't locate anything.
Marc:It's not there anymore.
Marc:Kenmore is not what it was.
Marc:Kenmore Square, it had a thing, and it's all erased.
Marc:And Harvard Square had a thing.
Marc:It's all erased.
Guest:I couldn't locate anything.
Marc:But that's not you.
Marc:It's not like because of you.
Marc:It's literally the geography has shifted entirely.
Marc:And there's none of the kind of grit that was, you know, Harvard Square had a bit.
Marc:But like, you know, the Tasty's gone.
Marc:The Garage is gone.
Marc:Like all these places.
Guest:T.T.
Guest:the Bears.
Marc:That's gone.
Marc:The Rat.
Marc:The Rat.
Marc:The Rat's Long Gone.
Marc:That was in Kenmore.
Guest:Right.
Marc:I think the Middle East is still in Central Square.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That was, yeah, my friend booked that place.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The Middle East.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think that might still be there.
Marc:But, like, I don't know what's happening anymore in the world.
Marc:But it seems like people our age, it was sort of generationally the end of that kind of rock, that kind of art, that kind of grit.
Marc:And I'm not being nostalgic or old man-y.
Marc:It's just not around.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's not there.
Guest:But it's also the... When I think back now... Yeah.
Guest:How people do things that... Obviously, I've been... So, four years later, I came to New York.
Guest:And I'd met enough people through the music scene to go to New York and know more people there.
Guest:But...
Guest:But just that, that you could say, I'm going to go to a city I know nothing about and meet people.
Guest:And, I mean, I got lucky that people showed up at my door.
Guest:I mean, that's unheard of.
Guest:But that you could go to the copy shop and find out what was going on and then go to clubs and you not knowing anything.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That you could just say, I'm going to go to this city and start making films and meet people that are different.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that that could happen.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Well, you collect a skill set and you have a sense of the community that defines you, right?
Marc:So then you kind of find yourself in them one way or the other through people.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, at that point, I don't even think I knew what I – I just knew what I wanted to get away from more than I knew what I wanted to – Right, but you're also hanging out with cool people and you made a few movies and you knew the music scene in Boston by virtue of this weird coincidence.
Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, it kind of like it seems like I don't know who you followed the museum school, but you're you had it.
Marc:It seemed to be more than just escaping because you had interest.
Guest:I had interest.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I made some that was the beginning of that was in the day when, you know, MTV would desperate for stuff.
Guest:So I make some super music videos of my friends and they played on MTV, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What for who?
Guest:Oh, these bands.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Dump Truck.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And Miracle Legion.
Guest:Oh, I love Mark Mulcahy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's the best.
Marc:Mulcahy's the best.
Guest:I haven't seen him in 30 years.
Marc:And Dump Truck, I just met the bass player of Dump Truck, Velasquez, I think his name is.
Marc:They've had many bass players.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, they have?
Guest:Because their bass player...
Guest:At a time, then became, was for a moment Yola Tango's bass player.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Yeah, it's all pretty.
Guest:Christmas, the band Christmas.
Marc:I don't know them.
Guest:They were great.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:They were my roommates, yeah.
Marc:They were?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you were in that Boston rock scene.
Guest:I was, yeah.
Guest:Fell into it.
Guest:And then we had a friend who booked all the bands.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Bob Lawton.
Guest:I don't know that guy.
Guest:He booked, then he went to New York and booked Sonic Youth and a bunch of bands.
Guest:And I worked for him for a while.
Guest:It was all a good introduction to stuff.
Guest:Anyway, that's my story.
Marc:When do you put together, how do you conceive of the first film, the first feature?
Guest:I went back to Florida and just wrote it.
Guest:I worked on a bunch of indie films.
Guest:In New York?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What year indie are we talking about?
Guest:Indie, Hal Hartley, Nick Gomez, but the one that I was really into is I worked on Poison.
Marc:Oh, that's great.
Marc:Todd Hayes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so then I became good friends with Todd's then partner editor, Jim Lyons.
Marc:And Poison was a life changer for me.
Guest:It was a real life changer for me.
Marc:That was one that different parts, right?
Marc:There was a horror part.
Marc:And then there was a video part.
Guest:The kid goes out the window.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then there's the third part is the Janae.
Guest:And so I worked in the art department and that was super and met a lot of people.
Guest:And we all that was the first thing I we worked on.
Guest:We just like, oh, we're making something that matters and is great.
Guest:And, you know, Todd's our leader.
Marc:And so that was the brain changer.
Guest:That was a big brain changer.
Guest:And I was like, oh, then I worked on some ones I didn't care about so much.
Guest:I was like, this is a lot of work.
Guest:Why don't I work towards my own thing?
Guest:And so I went down to Miami.
Guest:And yeah, with a boyfriend at the time.
Guest:And we wrote...
Guest:And we tried to write and we ended up in Nashville for some reason and then got back to New York and decided to do our own things.
Guest:And I, yeah, I wrote the script and.
Guest:For River of Grass?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that was, I mean, that was my learning experience of all of River of Grass.
Guest:I mean, River of Grass.
Marc:I felt that.
Guest:Made on, on every level.
Marc:Well, I realized like when I watched it, you know, next to Oldra, I'm like, oh, she's figuring this out.
Yeah.
Guest:I hadn't even—I mean, I'd been watching a lot of films at that point.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I hadn't made a film.
Guest:I didn't really know my lenses.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I had no idea really what—I learned about sexism.
Right.
Marc:You did?
Marc:Totally.
Marc:Well, I mean, it's like the movie is a take on the road movie, the murder road movie, right?
Marc:With a sort of sense of humor until the end to a degree.
Marc:And it's still a funny ending, but it's a surprising ending.
Guest:That was a changed ending.
Guest:That ending was like, it wasn't supposed to end that way.
Guest:That ending was like me, like, shooting the dudes on my crew.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So, like, what happened?
Marc:How'd you learn about sexism?
Guest:It was just...
Guest:Uh, the DP, the whole, like, you know, you just.
Marc:You couldn't lead?
Guest:Correct.
Marc:Right.
Guest:It was, uh, it was just, um, uh, yeah, there was, it was impossible to claim the power.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, um, and, you know, and I learned a lot of lessons like, oh, you can't go onto a film set and not know your lenses.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like, you know, I got, I knew what homework I needed to do when I left that film.
Right.
Guest:And then Larry Fezzenden cut it.
Guest:We cut it in his apartment.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it was a one-to-one take on everything.
Guest:And Larry and Lisa were the saving grace in that film for me because they were so awesome.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay, we did a one light transfer to three quarter inch video without time code.
Guest:So every time... What does that mean?
Guest:Meaning like you couldn't look anything up by a number.
Guest:So every time you wanted to go, you'd go through all the footage, which would be like back in the day going through the steam back.
Guest:And then Larry...
Guest:I was learning how to edit.
Guest:He was basically teaching me about sound design.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And this is before Avid.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:This is a three quarter inch old video machine.
Guest:So every time you make a change, you kind of have to keep re outputting.
Guest:You're losing a generation like all the time.
Guest:It's falling apart and falling apart.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then we ended up sending that to Sundance, incredibly.
Guest:And we were... Go Fish, Rose Truchet, and I were the two women out of the 16 films that got in.
Guest:And then Larry...
Guest:matched the video cut back by eye to the film.
Guest:I mean, it was so... And then we took a train out to Sundance because we couldn't afford to fly out there.
Guest:And then that was brutal.
Guest:I mean, Sundance was... It wasn't Sundance's fault.
Guest:It was just a... The indie world was not... It wasn't a world yet, right?
Guest:It was a world and it was a boy's world.
Guest:It was, you know, clerks and... Right.
Guest:It was not...
Guest:I mean, it was my take on it.
Guest:And then whatever.
Guest:Then it was like a decade before I get the next thing going.
Marc:Is that true?
Guest:Yeah, it's like 12 years.
Guest:Really?
Marc:So what were you doing in the interim?
Guest:Trying to get films made.
Marc:And River of Grass, did it make an impact at Sundance?
Guest:Yeah, it didn't sell, but it got some good reviews.
Guest:And then it got sold for a dollar to Strand Releasing.
Guest:And the guy from Strand Releasing called me up and said, hey, I just want you to know.
Guest:I don't really like your movie, but Good Machine would only sell me Lodge Kerrigan's film if I bought your film, too.
Guest:So I was like, great.
Guest:So they made one print.
Guest:It premiered at the Public Theater in New York.
Guest:They forgot to send the print on opening night.
Guest:And then just not much happened.
Guest:Disappeared?
Guest:One print?
Guest:It got good press, but it was one print that was kicking around, and it was...
Guest:getting more and more destroyed at every screening.
Guest:And it was just, it was hostile, you know.
Guest:It was, you know, there was like this book that came out with this dude who was a big deal at the time.
Guest:And he, him and the clerks got, you know, like River of Grouse was an example of like, if you only, this is a film that should have never been made, was what they write about in the book.
Guest:Really?
Guest:It looks like it was shot on a postage stamp, they say.
Guest:I actually think it's a good-looking film.
Guest:It does look good.
Guest:Siliscope recently restored it with a bunch of help from other people, which I'm really grateful for.
Guest:So I spent the next... I couldn't get something made after that.
Marc:What were you doing?
Marc:Pitching?
Marc:You had scripts?
Marc:I never knew how to pitch.
Guest:I came out to L.A.
Guest:Jodie Foster was going to produce something.
Guest:She had a thing with egg pictures.
Guest:But in those days, I came out here...
Guest:And you'd go to a meeting and there's no hiding it.
Guest:People go, we don't do women's films.
Guest:And it was supposed to star.
Guest:I wanted Alfre Woodard in the.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Double negative, like a black woman with a woman.
Guest:Like we just don't do.
Guest:Nobody hid anything.
Guest:Everybody.
Guest:Everything was like out in the open.
Marc:They just say that to your face.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:We're not.
Guest:We don't do women's films.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Women, like, in terms of thematic or women making— Everything.
Guest:All of it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so it was just a beatdown.
Guest:So I went back to New York, and at this point, you know, you had this feeling like, if you give something up, you know, if I put everything into this, give up the apartment, the boyfriend, sell all your records, you know, like, I'm all—
Guest:And I'm just couch hopping at this point.
Guest:And I know a lot of bands, so they go on tour and I stay in their place or I stay in the back of this beauty salon or I stay in my friend's furniture shop with all the fumes.
Guest:Night by night, I'm figuring it out.
Guest:And I thought, well, this until I get my film made.
Guest:And then that went on for five years.
Guest:And then my friends, the intervention came and were like, you have to get a place to live.
Guest:You're becoming a nut.
Guest:So I heard John McEnroe once on Letterman go like, yeah, if you have an art gallery in New York, all it's good for is people come and eat the food.
Guest:And we used to like by clockwork, Lisa Bowman and I would wait every Wednesday.
Guest:We'd go to his opening and we'd just go there to eat.
Guest:Any opening?
Guest:Yeah, whatever.
Guest:It had nothing to do with the art.
Guest:It was totally like they got vegetables.
Guest:So then I just kept working.
Guest:I went back to Super 8.
Marc:How'd you end up in Portland?
Guest:Todd.
Marc:Todd Haynes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I went back to just working in Super 8 and I started teaching, which adjuncting.
Guest:I started the- Teaching what?
Guest:Film off of River of Grass, but just adjunct.
Marc:This is shortly after your friends told you to get a place to live?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was working on, I worked in like the Keno mailroom.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Some people let me be part of their office.
Guest:So I had a place to be during the day and I had a filing cabinet with all my stuff in it.
Guest:But then at night the plate, the office was someone else had it at night.
Guest:So I had to find scurry around at night.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, um,
Guest:But, yeah, so, and I was working sometimes for my friend who books bands.
Guest:I was just, like, patching it together.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it wasn't happening.
Guest:So, I kept... Is that where you met Tom?
Marc:Sharpening?
Guest:Yeah, that's right.
Guest:That's where I met Tom.
Guest:So, I... Yeah, Tom was the only person who'd come in.
Guest:Like, he was so impressed that I made River of Grass.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, I was like, oh, yeah, this guy.
Guest:He's like...
Guest:He's a good ally to have.
Guest:Yeah, totally.
Guest:He's excited.
Guest:So it ended up that I liked teaching.
Guest:I liked doing this.
Guest:And so I just went back to Super 8, and I tried my hand at being like a non-narrative filmmaker, which I'm not.
Marc:Just doing the art film pure?
Marc:Yeah, I didn't know how—
Guest:Just, I tried to get away from story, but I, it was, I just, I made some bad films trying, but I, in the meantime... Was there, like, just, like, did you do any of that kind of, like, just color?
Marc:You know, just colors?
Guest:Not exactly that.
Guest:Who am I thinking of?
Marc:It's not Kenneth Anger.
Marc:Who was the other big experimental filmmaker who just...
Guest:Like who, like Brockage or something?
Guest:Yeah, Brockage.
Guest:Well, he's the man.
Guest:No, man, I couldn't... Nothing too embarrassing to talk about.
Guest:But there was this woman who worked at Post 391 on the West Side, and it's an expensive place to cut.
Guest:And at night, she would let all the people that couldn't pay in.
Guest:Like Jim Cohen was in a room, and I was in a room, and all these...
Guest:And we would just get out by the morning.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so anyway, I just kept working and I learned how to edit.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Guest:And then really my great aunt passed away and she left me $30,000.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I saw I could make a film.
Guest:So I...
Guest:I had gone out to visit Todd in Portland because he left New York and went to Portland.
Guest:I was visiting him and I met John Raymond and I... He's the guy that has collaborated with you on many movies.
Marc:A writer.
Guest:A writer.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I did... When I came back, I was doing a...
Guest:cross-country drive with my dog and i was taking route 50 across the country and i was doing the um it's like the last two-lane highway you could take across the country wow and i i was re i was doing i was going to go retrace the in cold blood this before all the in cold blood movies were made and so and so i went out to kansas and i was reading john's novel on the way and when i got to kansas i was in the motel and i finished his novel
Guest:And I said, wow, I really love the way this guy writes.
Guest:No, it was a novel.
Guest:It was called The Half-Life, which eventually became First Cow.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:No kidding.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I love the way this guy writes about, it's like so open and it's about friendship and just people and how they work in their environment.
Guest:So I wrote him a letter and I said, do you have any short stories?
Guest:Because I'm, you know, I just figured I was just going to make a short, you know.
Guest:And he sent me I said anything that's all outside because I don't have any lights.
Guest:And so and and he sent me old joy.
Guest:And so I turned in now was in a came in a collection of photos of Justine Curlin's.
Guest:They were beautiful.
Guest:I know her.
Marc:She used to work at Aggie's.
Guest:Oh, was that on Aggie?
Guest:Is that on Houston?
Marc:On Houston, yeah.
Guest:Okay, for like a month I've been trying to remember the name of that place.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And I've just asked everybody and no one can remember the place.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Aggie.
Guest:I kept thinking Alice.
Marc:Yeah, she remember Aggie owned the place.
Marc:Yeah, she was grouchy.
Justine.
Marc:worked there as a waitress and used to ride her bike around the Lower East Side.
Marc:You know, we became friends for a minute, but it didn't, I don't know, it didn't really end well.
Marc:But I ran into her not too long ago sitting outside of the Bowery, and I'm like, Justine Crowley, and she kind of remembered me.
Guest:Such a good photographer.
Marc:She's a great photographer.
Guest:Yeah, I really.
Marc:And if she was a kid when I knew her, we were both kids.
Marc:I was living on Avenue 2nd between A and B. Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, and just wandering around.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, she used to live down on Delancey.
Guest:She used to do the cross-country a lot, too, and we'd both be out at the road at the same time.
Marc:So her photographs inspired you a bit?
Guest:I really loved them, but the story was... Like, her photos weren't something I could...
Guest:you know but i love them and um and and i and i liked john's story and so i made a script out of that yeah and um and then out of old joy out of old joy and that and i just thought it would be a short and everyone kind of agreed to give me two weeks so that was i had that's how much money in portland in portland
Guest:I mean, I scouted hot tubs all over the country, and then I ended up writing it for the place John wrote it for in Bagby.
Guest:So, wait, are you in that movie, Your Voice?
Guest:What?
Guest:Because I put Air America in Old Joy.
Guest:It's on the radio.
Marc:No, I don't think so.
Guest:I forget who it is.
Marc:It might be Randy.
Marc:Was it a woman?
Guest:It wasn't Randy.
Marc:And it wasn't Al Franken?
Guest:It wasn't Al Franken.
Marc:Was it Mike McGloy?
Guest:I can't remember who I used to.
Guest:I don't think it was Sam.
Guest:I can't remember who it was.
Guest:Interesting.
Guest:I used to listen to Air America.
Oh.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know that I made it in there.
Marc:I would have heard.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I made it into Six Feet Under ones.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, there's Air America and Old Joy.
Guest:Anyway, yeah, so I made that, and everyone said, I'll give you two weeks.
Guest:And I thought I had made a 50-minute break.
Guest:Super 8 film and I thought maybe this would be like another.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I didn't know if it would be a feature or what it would be.
Guest:It was just like an art project.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then it ended up going to Sundance and like sort of opened the door back up for me.
Marc:Well, yeah.
Marc:But see, it seems to me that like coming from like I in watching all the movies that you have a sense of.
Marc:of space, you know, visually and dialogue-wise, that is really unique and it's hard to hold it.
Marc:And you do it every time.
Marc:It's clearly where you come from.
Marc:You're not trying to do anything else.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's sort of a pure expression somehow.
Marc:And, you know, I talked to – I was talking to Karina Longworth, the film historian.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:the other day about that scene in Old Joy, and I'm now rethinking it, you know, because, like, I was talking about you, which I have been a lot lately.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Yeah, that's nice.
Guest:People keep texting me.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm like, is it all hearing the same show?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I said to her, I said that scene in the hot tub, and I think that...
Marc:My experience with it and the reason why, you know, after seeing the trailer for the new movie, you know, that I kind of went on this rabbit hole journey with your stuff, you know, after watching Old Joy is that if you have a certain age, which we are, you know, the character, Will Oldham's character is not an unusual character.
Guest:Correct.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, it's something that every group of people has that guy.
Guest:For sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's unique to a time.
Marc:You know, it's a post-hippie, you know, searching loser that, you know, is not... Well, I don't necessarily want to say the word loser, but a lost person.
Guest:Yeah, like, everyone is sort of... Well, even myself, like, would not, like, cow chopping into my... Whatever, through my 30s.
Guest:Like, my friends, like, you know, it's...
Guest:Or like if you drink too long.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You go from like being the partier to like, OK, now today you're an alcoholic.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You're an alcoholic.
Guest:Whatever it is.
Marc:And also everyone, everything has moved on.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because there's that whole hot tub scene, all of it is great.
Marc:But that moment where he's telling that story about the coincidence of the woman or it was just some story that was completely kind of, you know, a kind of circuitous.
Marc:You know, like it's beyond coincidence, man.
Guest:Will's making that story up, by the way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, he just had that experience in Portland.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But it's like it is the way those guys talk.
Marc:It's this weird world of the mind that they have invested a lot of importance in as being mystical and elevating of themselves.
Marc:But it's ridiculous.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, and in talking about that, that seems to be sort of a through line.
Marc:Because in the best case scenario, you know, those types are going to end up in showing up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, they, and also, like, we screened it the other night.
Guest:Old Joy.
Guest:Yeah, Old Joy.
Guest:And someone was pointing out in the audience, like, you can't get lost.
Guest:Like, that film couldn't happen because you can't get lost.
Yeah.
Guest:Is that true?
Guest:Yeah, well, you have your phone.
Guest:It will tell you where to go.
Guest:I guess that's true.
Guest:There's no getting lost.
Marc:That's true, yeah.
Marc:But the whole hot tub scene, like the moment where he goes to massage his friend, I guess that you can put on that whatever you're going to put on that.
Marc:There is a moment of menace where you're like, what is happening?
Marc:But for me, the moment that was really profound was the bliss of,
Marc:In the face of that guy, the married guy.
Marc:And you seem to want to project onto him.
Marc:He's realizing his responsibility and his place in life.
Marc:And also the beauty of it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When Todd first moved out to... And this is a conversation you wouldn't have anymore either.
Guest:But when he first moved out to Portland and he met all these people, this painter, Storm Tharp, who great friends with his work is in...
Guest:showing up and um John Raymond and all these people he met all these new people and he would call back to New York and he just is ecstatic about all these new guys he met yeah and I'd be like uh anyway I don't want to hear about his new great life that wasn't in New York I wanted him to come back to New York yeah um uh but I'd be like well are they straight or are they gay like what are they and he'd be like
Guest:It's not like that out here.
Guest:And which is funny thinking back now how much times have changed, you know.
Guest:Meanwhile, all those guys are, you know, John has kids, he's married, you know, whatever.
Guest:Or he's whatever has a partner.
Guest:So when I was making Old Joy in the hot... I was trying to...
Guest:Get across this.
Guest:I mean, this is such an old fashioned idea already, but it's in the moment I was trying to get my head around this idea of what Todd was experiencing, saying like, no, it's not like New York, like everybody's can be who they want to be.
Guest:And in.
Guest:And Daniel and Will, the actors, were into that idea.
Guest:Though when that moment came in the tub to be physically affectionate with each other, like, they were two straight guys, you know?
Guest:And getting, like, uptight with me, like...
Guest:what are we doing here anyway it's freezing we're gonna get sick and all this and i was like okay yeah this isn't about this other thing yeah but um so there's a lot going on in that scene that was coming to it that i wasn't even planning on well that's what i like about it because like i started to realize in that moment about your filmmaking is that you're not and i've talked to other directors about this is that it's not your job to answer these questions
Marc:Or even to explain your intent.
Marc:I mean, you know, to sort of frame it in that they were ultimately uncomfortable with the prospect of intimacy or physicality with each other is that they somehow managed something.
Guest:Yeah, totally.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And in the context of the story, it seemed to, you know, be pretty honest to both of their characters.
Guest:I think so.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And because, like, you know, there is a moment there where you do think Will's going to kill him.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And there's also a moment where, but for me,
Guest:That's that shot of the hand.
Guest:I don't know if I would do that again.
Guest:It's funny.
Guest:Justine Curlin saw the film and she was like, I can't believe you put that shot of the hand in there.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Because she thought it was cheating?
Guest:Too much.
Guest:Too much.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And like the whole time I make that film, I'm like, is anybody going to get what, you know, I'm going to crack, make the sound of it.
Guest:They would be, the guys would be like, is this even about anything?
Guest:I'm like, don't worry.
Guest:I'm going to, there's going to be a stick cracking here in the soundtrack and that's going to get it.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, but I think it was before that, you know, where he's just laying there, where they're both laying there.
Marc:And because of the way he set up the characters, that Will was kind of spinning his own yarn in his dumb stoned head.
Marc:And it seemed to me that the other guy, what's his name?
Marc:Mark.
Marc:Mark, was having some sort of revelation about, you know, the beauty of his life.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Or just, yeah, settling into it and just settling into it.
Guest:Like, okay, this is a time with my wacky friend.
Marc:I mean, the way— But also, like, I'm going to have a kid.
Guest:Yeah, I'm going to have a kid.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, this isn't my life.
Guest:Like, this is just for the day.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm not this anymore.
Guest:Yeah, I'm right there.
Guest:And it's okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Thank God.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because the way you end that movie, it was sad and devastating.
Marc:But, like, you know—
Marc:It's like you said, it's like there comes a point where those guys, the guys who were the Neil Cassidy's of the crew, you know, just turn out, you know, like Neil Cassidy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Wandering on a railroad track, counting, you know, whatever.
Guest:I wonder what the version of that is today or will be, you know, because there'll always be people that can't quite...
Guest:Get a grip on it.
Marc:Sure, but I don't know if the social circles are quite the same as they were.
Guest:No, they're not.
Guest:There's a different version of it, I'm sure.
Marc:There must be.
Marc:The guy that I knew, not in college, but after... The guy that I knew, he just...
Marc:Who is that guy, you know, became sort of a very active alcoholic who learned to live with it.
Marc:He did a commercial.
Marc:He bought a farm in Nebraska and he married a woman and they're out there, you know, trying to grow vegetables and sell them at the farmer's market.
Marc:And he's a full on anti-Semite.
Marc:I don't know how it happened.
Marc:It's something about farming, I guess.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:But that's what happened to that guy.
Guest:Well, that guy that Will gives money to at the end, that guy said he was a basketball player at some time.
Guest:He was trying to get money to get the rest of his teeth pulled out.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:That was a real guy.
Guest:That was a real guy, yeah.
Marc:So Wendy and Lucy, was that based on your experience driving cross country with your dog?
Guest:I would like to say no.
Guest:I mean, you know, I had this dog that she was great, but she could never be alone.
Guest:So that's how she ended up in Old Joy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, that was your dog.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's how I ended up always driving cross country.
Guest:And so then we just wrote a part in Wendy and Lucy.
Guest:And I was a little afraid, you know, the road trip again.
Guest:And I had done River of Grass.
Guest:But John was feeling, you know, he was confident.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He wrote it as a short story first.
Guest:Wendy and Lucy.
Guest:Yeah, and then I was sort of working on the script, like, right behind him, and I think the ending of the script ends up being the ending he uses in the short story, but, yeah, he was, I had some hesitancy about it, but, like, I'm not, Wendy, I wasn't gonna, you know, go work in a, I wasn't gonna go to Alaska and work in a factory.
Marc:Fishery.
Marc:Right, which I've known people that have done that.
Guest:Many.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Those are real people.
Guest:Yeah, those are real people.
Marc:And then Will shows up in the weird bonfire.
Marc:That's the other crew, the strange squatters by the railroad.
Guest:And those kids were like never, that was not a fun night.
Guest:No.
Guest:Those kids are all just like.
Marc:Drug addicts?
Guest:Give us the money to, we're here and give us the money.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, that you said you'd give us.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I'll sit here for 10 more minutes.
Guest:So it was a little menacing.
Guest:Those are the kids that, you know, Justine, after she saw the move, she was like, I'm going to go find kids like that and shoot those kids or whatever.
Guest:And she was just like.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, she did.
Guest:And she made some beautiful pictures.
Guest:But she was like, oh, my God, those kids are like, you know.
Guest:Hard, right?
Guest:Hard, really hard.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, it was interesting, again, because of the space you leave.
Marc:And I don't know.
Marc:How you decide your timing.
Marc:It's a feeling, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think everyone just has a clock.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, you know, towards the end of that movie and then in retrospect, you know, thinking back on Wendy and Lucy, you know, she you know, there's a sweetness to her character and it isn't sympathetic character.
Marc:But at some point you realize that she has real problems.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And that you don't know what the source of those problems are, but it's pretty awful.
Marc:And then, you know, to end on a train, like, you know, fucking five easy pieces or something, where he just climbs into a lumber truck.
Marc:You know, like, you're not thinking, like, that's going to be okay.
Guest:No, that's not going to be okay.
Guest:No.
Guest:It's good she left the dog behind because it's not going to be okay.
Guest:It isn't.
Guest:No.
Guest:She's making a lot of not good decisions.
Guest:Because she can't— But she can't— Yeah.
Guest:And that was the time in, you know, the conversation in those Bush years was so hostile towards the— You know, you remember those years of just—
Guest:Like, you know, the whole pull yourself up from your bootstraps.
Guest:And if you can't, as if everyone's equipped to do that and everyone's not equipped to do that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And sometimes the version of doing that is horrendous.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, that's interesting.
Marc:So you felt that that was a reaction to that?
Guest:I did.
Guest:I mean, not the... I mean, once we're making the movie, we're concentrating on our characters or whatever.
Guest:But that was the vibe at the time was so, like... It was so mean.
Guest:And people responded to the film and were really... You know, I remember one of my dad's cop friends that I grew up with said, good for Kelly.
Guest:Wendy can go fuck herself.
Marc:Wow, he misunderstood everything.
Guest:Yeah, but that was a...
Guest:response yeah i thought it was like i find the endings now as you you're moving through these movies are you are you picking up is it easier for you to finance movies it was you know um uh well kino who i worked in their mailroom they put out old joy and that was really great and i mean every one i'm just like okay this is the last one we're getting another chance to you know and wendy and lucy was made an insanely small budget yeah
Guest:Michelle Williams being in it was crazy.
Guest:She loves you, though.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she came and just, you know, we had nothing for her.
Guest:She sat on an apple box on the side of the road.
Guest:And then it was like, hey, pick up your apple box.
Guest:We got to go over here.
Guest:You know, it was like nothing.
Guest:And then Meeks, I really thought, okay, that's the end.
Guest:Like nobody's, you can't even see anybody's face.
Guest:We're using these big bonnets.
Guest:But we went all out on it and used oxen and these big, and I was just like, all right, this is...
Marc:But what's interesting is that it was within the possibility of what you could do.
Marc:I mean, the reason why it was so effective is you didn't have to build a fucking town.
Guest:I didn't have to build a town, but we didn't have enough money to make that film safely.
Guest:Like, we would not do that again.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It was, we pushed people too far.
Guest:It was, first of all, oxen are really dangerous.
Guest:There's a reason people don't use them.
Guest:They're bulls.
Guest:They, like, run through your set all of a sudden.
Guest:And they don't move backwards.
Guest:So you have to always be shooting forward.
Marc:So was that another John Raymond story?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he had gotten some kooky job to go out and there was going to be a new development in the middle of the desert.
Guest:He got this job where he was supposed to go out and name all the things like the playground and the this and the that.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And so when he was out there, he found the story of Stephen Meek, which was a real guy who took 200 wagons into the desert.
Guest:Did they survive?
Guest:Some of them did.
Guest:And some of them, we shot right where they were.
Guest:Like, we found little gravestone of a little girl out there.
Guest:She was, I mean, it's, we shot way out in the high desert.
Guest:With your oxen.
Guest:And Paul Dano and Kazan.
Guest:And, yeah, they were fine.
Guest:But, like, bringing Bruce Greenwood out into the, some people weren't fine.
Guest:You know, it was really hard.
Marc:Greenwood plays meek.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It was like 110 degrees until it was freezing.
Guest:And there was never anything in between.
Guest:And it's rattlesnake country.
Guest:And it's just like.
Marc:You're saying this like you surprised yourself.
Marc:I had no idea what it was going to be like.
Guest:I mean, it was.
Guest:You made the movie.
Guest:But what did I know?
Guest:I mean, to the last thing.
Marc:You just wanted the bonnets to look right now.
Guest:I wanted that landscape.
Guest:I had scouted out there.
Guest:You know, I got introduced to that high desert just driving around looking for Wendy and Lucy.
Marc:It was in, where is it?
Guest:No, it's in Eastern Oregon.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I wanted, and that's where the, I mean, we found pieces of barrel and stuff from the original wagon train.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it's everything is sharp.
Guest:Every plant is sharp.
Guest:Everything.
Guest:There's rattlesnakes and then there's little insects that sound like rattlesnakes.
Guest:So it will make you crazy.
Guest:But then when the actors get there, they're like you quit thinking about the rattlesnakes.
Guest:They're just like, oh, my God, this guy's going to kill me out in the desert.
Guest:But it was it was.
Guest:It was very... I used up too much time.
Marc:Well, why that story?
Guest:I mean, like, you know, out of... It's a Western... Well, we had just gone into Iraq following George Bush into the desert.
Guest:And so it was a story about a leader and you didn't know if he was full of shit or, like, they really didn't know.
Guest:Had he...
Marc:He was taking these pioneers across the desert.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And he found a shortcut.
Guest:He claimed to know.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And he but he was a bullshitter and people left.
Guest:There's diaries from the pioneers and some people thought he had misread his own map.
Guest:It was an accident.
Guest:And other people thought this is just he just has no idea what he's doing.
Guest:So, um, they, so they were following someone and then they come across the Indian and, uh, and that's the person they want to get help from, but they don't trust him and, uh, they don't speak the same language as him.
Guest:They want his help, but they're completely suspicious of him.
Marc:But they don't see that they have a choice.
Yeah.
Guest:They don't see that they have a choice, but they also don't think anything of him is a human.
Marc:But I think that's the funny thing about the nature of white entitlement in a weird way is that they're put in this.
Marc:They assume on some level, no matter how much they distrust him, that he's going to be no better than meek.
Marc:Who they've grown to believe doesn't know what the fuck is happening.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And just by virtue of the fact that they're white and this indigenous person has to know where the water is, and then the guy just leaves.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In our mind, too, like, you know, not that this is in the film, but in our mind, he's like, he's lost.
Yeah.
Guest:You know, he's, like, out on a dream quest.
Guest:He seems mentally ill, in a way.
Guest:He's just, like, out on his trippy way.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So, yeah, he doesn't have the, well, you know, that's, like, all to be decided upon the viewer.
Guest:But, yeah, the idea was, you know.
Marc:Like, they're left there after they lose a wagon.
Marc:And one of them, I think, dies, right?
Marc:And Meek, what happens to Meek?
Marc:I can't remember.
Marc:Does he die?
Guest:He kind of throws in the hat.
Guest:He throws in the hat.
Guest:He sort of says it's all, you know, this is written before we got here.
Guest:It's destiny.
Guest:It's destiny.
Marc:And, you know, so he, you know, he doesn't take blame.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then they're all standing there and then the indigenous guy just splits.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they and then.
Guest:Well, the – I mean, yeah, it's – I love the ending.
Guest:That was a – Thanks.
Marc:Because it's one of those movies because I used to do a joke about that, about the type of movie where everyone walks out and says like, did you understand?
Marc:What happened at the end?
Guest:Do you know what happened at the end?
Guest:Well, you know, like the ending in the script never worked for me.
Guest:And I was like, John, the ending doesn't work.
Guest:And he's like, it's fine.
Guest:And I'm like, listen, I'm out here in the desert and I'm telling you the ending doesn't work.
Guest:The ending that's in the movie?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:In the script.
Guest:And so, you know, John's like at home with his cat.
Guest:He's like, you're going to be fine.
Guest:I'm like, I don't.
Guest:So everything built up and there was so much to do and so much to think about.
Guest:And in my mind, I'm like...
Guest:what Zoe Kazan's character says, it's not going to work here.
Guest:But then finally, we saved the last scene to the last day of shooting.
Guest:And I'm losing the actors and the oxen.
Guest:No one is staying one minute, one...
Guest:hour later than is and i've got in the how are we going to get this all done in one day yeah but i've got it all timed out but i have misjudged that the sun i'm going to lose the sun like an hour earlier because there's a mountain yeah and i'm like oh crap you know so i said to myself well i just hope zoe doesn't ask me about these lines because i can't tell her what they mean but maybe she knows what they mean you know against anything you'd ever sure teach and you know like breaking all so we
Guest:It's freezing and Zoe's been in the camper the whole day and she gets out to the spot and she's like, everything, we're working like the crew is killing it.
Guest:We're just keeping it.
Guest:I'm like, let's go.
Guest:Zoe's like, I don't know what these lines mean.
Guest:They don't make any sense to me.
Fuck.
Guest:And by this time, like the actors have had it with me and the whole thing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so, um, uh, you know, the guys who want to kill me anyway, cause they haven't been getting any closeups the whole movie, you know, the women are getting all the closeups and they really want to kill me.
Guest:And so they say, you know, Zoe, this is what it's all about.
Guest:Just take your time, you know?
Guest:And I'm like, ah, she says, Kelly, I know you're just looking at the sun.
Guest:You're not even thinking about what I'm saying.
Guest:And I'm,
Guest:no you know i'm listening and uh you know i'm just uh and so paul dano ends up taking some of the lines and um but the discussion of the whole thing and she was right they it didn't she wasn't wrong and but this working it out the sun went down i lost the sun and i went back without the ending of the movie and i cut the whole film i didn't have an ending
Guest:And I didn't, I'm like, what am I going to do?
Guest:I'm never getting those animals again.
Guest:And I've shot part of the scene with the animals, with all these actors.
Guest:And I, what am I going to do, you know?
Guest:And, you know, I could usually count on Todd for some kind of like positive.
Guest:And I show him that.
Guest:And I said, like, I really don't.
Guest:He said, yeah, you don't have an ending.
Guest:You're screwed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm like, I don't know what to tell you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So Michelle and Rod Radeau, who plays the Indian, agree to go back.
Guest:It's a different season.
Guest:So I have no animals and two actors.
Guest:And I shot the close-up of Michelle through the tree and Radeau walking away.
Guest:And I had to just cut the whole movie.
Guest:I didn't have an ending.
Guest:So I went back out and I did it with...
Guest:that ending with the two of them yeah of him walking away and her looking so that that's the ending yeah and someone sent the uh the dvd back to oscilloscope with a note and said this film my dvd didn't have an ending on it well it was one of those endings where you're like but but ultimately to me what it meant was like the ultimate fuck you
Guest:Totally.
Guest:Or these are the choices.
Guest:Not to the audience.
Marc:Where the indigenous guy was like, good luck.
Guest:Or are they going to follow him?
Guest:I mean, the thing is, we all know how the story ends, ultimately.
Guest:The big story of the people going west.
Guest:All right.
Marc:Well, I liked it.
Marc:I liked the ending.
Marc:So then, like, after that movie, because it looks like Night Moves took a little more money.
Guest:Yeah, well, yeah.
Guest:But Night Moves, that was a hard one.
Guest:They were also hard, but Night Moves— Jesse Eisenberg, Dakota Fanning, Peter Sarsgaard.
Guest:It came together, and I couldn't get it going.
Marc:Who wrote that?
Marc:Was that John—
Guest:John and I did.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And and he he had some he and his partner have friends that own this farm in the Applegate Valley, Southern Oregon.
Guest:And he would call me from the farm and be like, I can't believe what's going on down here.
Guest:Just like getting caught up in all the small politics of the farm.
Marc:Environmentalism.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's about eco terrorists.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But there was the cheese license and all these things going on.
Guest:And so he brought me down there and started introducing me to the farm.
Guest:But it was this incredible farm where these people were really trying to live without as tiny a footprint as possible.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Rain water gets captured in the reservoir and they grow their own food and they have solar power and don't use cement or metal to build their houses.
Guest:It's all.
Guest:And this year they're selling it because there's no rain.
Guest:They can't work the farm anymore.
Guest:It's dried out.
Guest:Like, yeah, really sad ending to it.
Guest:But anyway, that was that was a whole excursion.
Marc:Well, I mean, was it a total fiction, the idea, the plot to blow up the dam?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We wanted to do a film about a fundamentalist, like fundamentalist thinking.
Guest:And it just seemed too easy to do about a right winger.
Guest:And I've been reading a ton about the ELF and just really so many interesting stories with those kids getting just.
Guest:And there were people.
Guest:ELF.
Guest:The environmental life that who were like blowing up the Hummers and stuff and all those kids who got, you know, is after 9-11.
Guest:They weren't catching any terrorists.
Guest:So these kids became the terrorists that they caught and they were blew up a car lot.
Guest:blew up a car lap blew up a library blew up uh let some uh minks go into the wild but um people nobody actually got hurt though they did screw up a few things they did blow up the wrong library and things like that um
Guest:But they got, you know, these are like 20-year-olds getting life sentences on terrorism.
Guest:But so we made it about a fundamentalist would be someone that you could relate to the cause.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But that's still, you know, not such a good idea to blow stuff up.
Marc:But also like, you know, the thinking, the radicalized mind.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Completely with no just no subtlety and no.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And that's Jesse Eisenberg.
Guest:Yes, that's Jesse Eisenberg.
Marc:You know, and oddly, he's dealing with Skarsgård's, you know, kind of like, you know, cynical war wisened.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Practicality.
Marc:And then, you know, the naivete of Dakota Fanning's character.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And what they weren't preparing for was conscience.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:In relation to an accidental death in their life.
Guest:act of terrorism right like the planning has so much um there's so much to think about and so much to do yeah but they didn't really totally think about the aftermath of not like getting disapproved of by the people in their own community that they're fighting that they thought they were fighting for yeah who would say good things about
Guest:Right.
Guest:And just the weight of, and they weren't expecting anyone to get hurt.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And so while that film was hard, the environmentalists were not happy with us because, you know, someone did get hurt and they would make the case that, you know, they got enough on their hands.
Marc:Oh, then to be characterized like that?
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:But again, you know, a question of ending.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Which is, you know, after like, I don't want to spoil all these movies because I would assume people would want to see them after we talk about them.
Marc:But, you know, it's almost like, you know, crime and punishment.
Marc:It's like Raskolnikov, right?
Guest:We thought a lot about crime and punishment.
Marc:Yeah, you did.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that's 2013.
Marc:So you're doing like one every few years.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Now I'm trying to make up for lost time.
Marc:Well, Certain Women, like, is, again, that's 2016.
Marc:Now, how are you funding all these movies?
Guest:These are, I've had the, since Old Joy, I've had the same two producers, partners, Neil Coppin and Yusuf Johnny.
Guest:Actually, and Vincent, the hidden partner who I, he's just, he's like the guy on the phone who does everything.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And we never really see him.
Marc:And what do they mostly cost?
Marc:What's your budget usually?
Guest:You're not supposed to say.
Guest:All right, all right.
Guest:Okay, no, but...
Guest:Hey, settle down.
Guest:I mean, boy, I mean, Wendy and Lucy was really low budget, you know, in the $100,000 range.
Guest:And then I guess Meeks was around a million bucks.
Guest:And Night Moves, I honestly can't remember what it ended up being.
Guest:But, you know, they're small.
Marc:Yeah, but clearly actors want to work with you.
Guest:Yeah, actors want to work with me.
Guest:And Michelle has set a nice standard of like, you know, she'll take the she'll take the lowest.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And then other people join in, you know, it's so that they're doable.
Marc:Well, I thought that in certain women, you almost have these three characters, these women.
Guest:I mean, that was cool.
Guest:Kristen Stewart coming out and playing that part.
Marc:It's great.
Marc:And Laura Dern and Michelle and the woman from Montana.
Marc:Where is she from?
Guest:Lily Gladstone from Montana.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:She's in the new Scorsese movie.
Marc:Oh, she should be.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:I'm really happy for her.
Marc:But that type of, the sense of longing...
Marc:On behalf of all of them.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, what was the driving force of that?
Guest:These were stories by the writer Miley Malloy.
Guest:She had two collections of shorts.
Guest:And I kind of patched together some from three stories from these different collections.
Guest:And like the ranchers, a dude in her story.
Guest:The Gladstone character?
Guest:Yeah, the Gladstone character.
Guest:But in a lot of ways, it was like making three short films together.
Guest:But they made sense to me as a whole, like the way they worked with each other.
Guest:But they, yeah, it was, well, we were talking about actors, I guess, and that was a nice, and LeGros was there.
Marc:Oh, you like him.
Guest:Yeah, I do.
Marc:I always wonder what happens to him sometimes.
Marc:Like, you know, since like Drugstore Cowboy, I'm like, what's that guy doing?
Marc:Then he shows up here and there.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, he works all the time.
Guest:He's in a ton of stuff.
Guest:Yeah, I like him.
Guest:Yeah, I like him too.
Guest:I think he's in Safe.
Guest:He's really great in Safe.
Marc:Safe is a confounding movie.
Guest:It's a great film.
Guest:I love it.
Marc:But I have no idea what it ultimately is about.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Wow.
Guest:I mean.
Marc:I've watched it a few times.
Marc:I remember the first time I saw it.
Marc:I'm like, this is the best movie ever made.
Marc:I don't know what it means.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I. Yeah.
Guest:Gosh, I. I really I didn't.
Guest:I read the script.
Guest:I didn't understand the script at all, but I understood the movie.
Guest:Yeah, really.
Guest:What does it mean to you?
Guest:Um, well, the idea of, uh, you know, projecting it, saying that anybody's, uh, illness is like caused by themselves to me is like problematic in the first place.
Guest:But, um, and just someone who doesn't really have a total self and is taking more information from the outside, I think, than from the inside.
Marc:It's a big problem right now in the world.
Yeah.
Guest:I think that, I think, yeah, that film ages really well because it, it's, every part of it is still relevant.
Guest:Like that the idea of environmental sickness is in your head, you know, that.
Marc:That's crazy.
Guest:But then that the answer is an igloo is also quite.
Marc:And then just that weird guy who's just wandering.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I never understood that guy.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Yeah, that's a... Yeah.
Marc:Well, that's where you end up, man.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's the far side of the spectrum.
Guest:I guess that is the far side of the spectrum.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, okay.
Marc:But I thought, you know, I thought that it seemed to me that certain women was about...
Marc:Love and not love, about longing and, you know, unrequited love and, you know, compromises made to honor, you know, desire.
Marc:And there's a lot of stuff in there.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:About relationship, too, I think.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And sometimes, you know, aloneness is comforting and great.
Guest:And sometimes it's lonely.
Guest:And then, well, you got a lot of animals around.
Guest:That's good.
Marc:You like the animals?
Guest:That dog came with that ranch.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I just love that Gladstone was so amazing when she drives to sit in the parking lot.
Guest:It's just like... She's great, yeah.
Marc:And Kristen Stewart played that so well.
Guest:That was an insane... That day was so windy and so wild.
Guest:And they did that scene and Kristen came up to me afterwards and she's like, oh, she's like, she's really...
Guest:Like she had to up her game.
Guest:She's like, oh, yeah, she was she was like taken back by Lily.
Guest:She was like, oh, OK.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Something going on here.
Guest:So it was cool.
Guest:And Kristen was really willing to let all the scenes be Lily's.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And that was so cool.
Marc:So, all right, we talked a little bit about First Cow, which is, you know, a beautiful movie.
Guest:And Lily Gladstone's in that.
Guest:And she's the one who – she plays the – she factor's wife.
Guest:And she's the one who really, really got down the language, the Chinook –
Marc:language really down yeah she plays she has the cat yeah yeah yeah his wife yeah yeah yeah no i i just you know i got so hung up with mccabe and mrs miller and then like you know the story of those two guys and that actor who's also in showing up i i just like i really found that you know the similarity how was it john mcgarrow yeah yeah
Marc:But like the similarities in terms of, you know, class and capitalism and, you know, the nature of the prospector, whether and also the beaver business, you know, versus, you know, hookers and gambling.
Marc:I mean, it was all part of that story, the beginning of capitalism.
Guest:Yes, the beginning of capitalism.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And already before there's even an agreed currency.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like everyone's using different things for currency.
Guest:Yeah, it's so good.
Guest:But the hierarchy for who's on top as far as like seems already in place.
Guest:Like there's a scene like we have a servant who's like from the Sandwich Islands who's, you know, and –
Guest:And King Lou.
Guest:And then you have.
Guest:So there's different levels of servitude and color and race and.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:But it's all coming into play.
Marc:It kind of goes up the hierarchy because of negotiations made with the natives.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That, you know, if you're going to cut in the natives and create some sort of detente with the people that, you know, know the land.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Theoretically own the land.
Marc:That that's where it starts.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But then where does that leave like Lily Gladstone's servant or someone like King Lou?
Guest:Like those guys are in them between each other.
Guest:Or they get pushed out eventually.
Guest:Yeah, but they're deciding who's on top between the two of them.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like there's a weird scene.
Guest:So everyone's scrambling for their space.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I just thought the relationship between the cook and the other guy was so sweet.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, that's – and those characters came from that first novel of John Raymond's that I read, The Half-Life.
Guest:And in that novel – in the script – well, there's no cow in the novel.
Guest:And the novel goes between – like goes back into the 1800s and to contemporary life back and forth.
Marc:But I think the violence of that story is that the price to pay –
Marc:For the milk, you know, in a lawless land would be your life.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Which is, you know, given this sort of.
Guest:It's like the dog food, really.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's no use.
Guest:Like, it's so petty.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But no one was going to stop it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And that was the nature of the frontier on some level.
Marc:But after you set up this beautiful relationship and these poetic characters and this sort of sweetness of barter and all this stuff that the violence is specific and it's heinous.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And that is the beginning of thuggery.
Marc:You know, that really grows to define the system we live in.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Early days.
Marc:But the roots of.
Marc:Yeah, for sure.
Marc:Now, okay, so let's get to the current movie.
Guest:We're not allowed to talk about that anymore, by the way, in school.
Guest:Yeah, in certain schools, right?
Guest:You wouldn't be allowed to show this film, probably.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Well, you know, the whole thing of getting rid of, don't make white people feel guilty, right?
Marc:Oh, well, you mean, oh, so the fascist.
Marc:You wouldn't be able to talk about it in fascist institutions.
Guest:Yeah, like Florida, Texas.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Elementary schools.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Marc:Yeah, it's horrendous.
Marc:But the new movie, like...
Marc:To me, it was so beautiful because, you know, I having had the experience of being with somebody who was in the high art world, you start to realize that there's this whole other tier of successful, quote unquote, successful artists.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That aren't making the financial cut.
Marc:They exist in community and in institutions.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And they get by.
Guest:They get by.
Yeah.
Marc:And this is those people.
Guest:This is those people in the Daily.
Guest:I mean, originally, we were going to do a biopic on this painter, Emily Carr, the Canadian painter that John and I love.
Guest:And we went to Vancouver.
Guest:But we thought she was obscure.
Guest:And she had a decade of her life where she became a landlord because she thought it would be better than having a day job, more time to paint.
Guest:But her tenants were so needy, she couldn't get around to painting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then we went to Vancouver and we found out she's like hugely worshipped, famous.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So we were like, okay, that doesn't work.
Guest:So then we kind of turned it more towards our own world.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And this school, Oregon College of Arts and Crafts is a... It's a real place?
Guest:It's closed, but it was a school for over 100 years and a really important pottery ceramics place for the Pacific Northwest all through the 60s and 70s and up till pretty much everyone we worked with had some connection to that school.
Guest:That's where you shot?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it closed...
Guest:And it, you know, like so many art schools, it closed and it was only because it was COVID because it's going to become something else.
Guest:It's going to become like a middle school and it's going to be renovated.
Guest:But because of COVID, they kind of had to divert their funds to online learning.
Guest:So we got to shoot there.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:Which was, you know, so it was a big empty school and we got to make up a whole school.
Marc:Well, the thing I loved about the school is, and that, you know, Michelle Williams' character, his parents are involved.
Marc:Her father's a famous potter who is retired.
Marc:Her mother is running the school.
Marc:And she obviously grew up in this environment.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But, like, just walking down those halls and seeing what we all saw of our generation in art schools or people we knew, everyone solving the big questions the same way over and over again.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, ad infinitum of, you know, these way the artists, young artists discover themselves.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:There's a format to it, but they're not aware of it.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And it's sort of the root of the delusion necessary to pursue arts.
Marc:And the other thing about arts is that no one's going to stop you but you.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, you can.
Guest:Depending.
Guest:Like, it's harder if your art is clay or painting.
Guest:If you want to make films, films take money.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, yeah, but if you make the room in your life for it, you can make stuff.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But pottery, like I'm a big pottery fan and it's a practical art and it's affordable and it's usually priced within a price point that you can afford.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And it's nice to have.
Guest:It's beautiful.
Marc:And it's almost, you know, you don't have to covet it so much.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Her painting's different.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And certainly the work of Hong Chao.
Marc:Hong Chao, yeah.
Marc:Her work is completely esoteric.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And can only exist in installations.
Guest:Yeah, that's Michelle Segre's work.
Marc:Yeah, and it's designed to be documented.
Marc:I mean, there's that whole world of installation where all you're going for is the book.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, she would not like to be called an installation artist.
Guest:She's a sculptor, but her things are huge and they need space.
Guest:Yeah, they need space.
Marc:But it's not the kind of art that you're like, I'm going to buy that for my house.
Guest:No, you're not.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's art for art's sake in a way.
Marc:But then Michelle Williams, just that juxtaposition.
Marc:There's a scene in, did you ever see the New York stories, Scorsese's short in the New York stories?
Guest:I can't remember it.
Marc:There was Coppola, Woody Allen, and Scorsese.
Marc:Nick Nolte plays an old school New York painter.
Marc:I can't remember it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's such a great scene where, you know, he's like Rosanna Arquette, I think is the, the, the woman who's living with him and she's also doing her little paintings, but he's like a massive canvas, you know, old, you know, from the sixties, you know, and she's doing her little canvases and she ends up fucking some guy and, you know, and he's at the house, the guy she fucked and, you know, and, and it's Nick Nolte shows up and I can't remember the situation, you know, uh,
Marc:But there's a beat where, you know, Nolte says to him, like, what do you do?
Marc:And the guy goes, I'm a graffiti artist.
Marc:And then Nick Nolte goes, I'm a painter.
Guest:You know, with the weight of it, you know.
Marc:But there's something about the sort of preciousness of Michelle Williams' work.
Marc:And everyone's so kind.
Marc:And there was something kind of profound about one of them getting fucked up in the kiln.
Marc:That, you know, that this was sort of...
Marc:You know, a chip in the armor.
Marc:She had to reckon with acceptance and all that.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I just found that the depiction and then the mentally ill brother.
Guest:All the thing with the piece that was going to be messed up.
Guest:I mean, the pieces that she's working on, which are made by Cynthia Latte, are not like pristine pieces.
Guest:The work is already fucked up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, in its original idea of it.
Guest:But so I kept we kept trying different things to screw it up.
Guest:And you would be like, well, is that just part of it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, you couldn't tell.
Guest:You had to burn it.
Guest:And still, I almost lost half a day of shooting.
Guest:Just not being able to decide like, is that...
Guest:fucked up enough or does that look good or is that like I couldn't I couldn't I mean it made me I know it seems so stupid now but the nights of sleep lost over worry thinking of you know being able to judge when it was too much or not enough or you'd be able to tell but what was what were your concerns in this movie in terms of themes I mean what was your intent
Guest:I think we wanted to show like if you have a desire and an impulse to make something the way you, you know, the way you're going to have lunch today, like you need to balance your life.
Guest:But you don't necessarily have a built in audience and or your audience is maybe the same audience you've had over and over again.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And is it you still these people still need to make stuff because that's like how their day goes.
Guest:And it's what makes their life make sense and how they and they have something they want to get out.
Guest:And, you know, and so we're trying to.
Guest:put it in a sort of lower stakes world, but that those, the anxieties still exist of completion and level of, you know, deciding what's good enough and if you're as good as you should be or you're making it better or is it going to speak to anyone besides you?
Guest:And also just how do you make time to make it work into your life?
Guest:And I think how a lot of things in your life, like I worry about people who make art now because I just think like when we were young, like part of making art is hanging out.
Guest:Like you need time to hang out and talk about stuff.
Guest:Like John and I hang out a lot and walk around and talk.
Guest:And people always go like, how do you work together?
Guest:It's like hanging out and gossiping, I guess, a lot of it.
Guest:Right.
Yeah.
Guest:But, you know, rents are so high and everything.
Guest:Now, like, your whole life is, like, trying to figure out how to—I don't know.
Guest:It's a harder thing.
Guest:You can't just go, like, I'm just going to go to New York City and find my people.
Guest:Because New York City is— Yeah, I know.
Guest:All cities.
Guest:Portland's too expensive.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah, I talk about that, like, on stage recently, just about how—
Marc:So it really – it is a movie about creating art.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And the lifestyle around that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And the daily process of it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I talk about – on stage, I'm talking about shopping.
Marc:Sometimes I'll go to three supermarkets to go shopping just because I just decided that's – and then I said, what do you think comics do during the day?
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, I spent most of my life running errands with other people.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Usually my errands.
Marc:Like, what are you doing?
Marc:You want to go take a ride with me today while I go do something I have to do?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Why not?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Why not?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You walk in our neighborhood in Portland.
Guest:You like walk and you're going to stop at the store and get some stuff.
Guest:And yeah, your backpack's getting filled up along the way.
Marc:After I did my show at Carnegie Hall, which is a big night, me and Sharpling walked.
Marc:All the way downtown.
Guest:That's what the film's about.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:Like the best night that you're, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, you got into Cannes.
Guest:You did it.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:The memory for me of all of that is breaking it down with Chris Blauvelt, the DP, or my producers, or John Raymond.
Guest:It's the walk home afterwards.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:John will meet up wherever it is, and then we share what anybody said does, the whole thing.
Guest:You're just breaking down the night, and that's the best part.
Guest:That's the best part of the night.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It was so weird because after I did Carnegie Hall, which wasn't great for me, but my opening act did well.
Marc:And after the evening, my opening act at that time, I was kind of like addicted to nicotine.
Marc:So he gave me what was left of his chew, his packets.
Marc:And there was like four in there.
Marc:I'm like, oh, this is great.
Marc:And then I saw Tom and I'm like, what are you doing?
Marc:Let's just walk.
Marc:So I'm just like chewing skull and walking with Tom after I did Carnegie Hall.
Marc:And that was the best part of the night.
Marc:Yeah, that is the best part of the night.
Marc:Yeah, when it's over.
Marc:Well, I guess that all makes sense now in terms of you create all this tension between all these characters and their egos.
Guest:I'm not going to.
Marc:No, I just all I'm going to say is that this is the happiest ending you've made.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Great.
Guest:It's the most of an ending ending, probably.
Guest:It's kind of an ending.
Guest:Life goes on.
Guest:Life goes on.
Marc:But life goes on, but you don't walk out of this movie going, no, that's not going to go well for you.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:No, it's going to be another day.
Marc:Right, right.
Guest:Back to work.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Great talking to you.
Guest:Thanks for having me.
Guest:Thanks for checking out the movies.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I really love the work.
Guest:Yeah, thanks a lot.
Marc:I did it.
Marc:I gave her the Paul Thomas Anderson treatment.
Marc:We just went movie to movie, baby.
Marc:Movie to movie.
Marc:Let's talk it out.
Marc:Her new one showing up opens in theaters tomorrow.
Marc:And in a minute, I'll tell you where you can catch all the other movies we've talked about.
Marc:So hang out.
Marc:All right, listen up.
Marc:Here's where the other Kelly Reichardt movies are streaming right now.
Marc:River of Grass is streaming for free on Plex.
Marc:Old Joy is on HBO Max.
Marc:Wendy and Lucy is on Pluto TV, Tubi, Peacock, and AMC+.
Marc:Meek's Cutoff is available on Showtime and AMC+.
Marc:Night Moves is on Peacock and Freevii.
Marc:Certain Women is on Pluto TV, Tubi, and AMC+.
Marc:And First Cow is on Peacock.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:Go watch them.
Marc:Next week, we have Steven Yeun on Monday.
Marc:He's in that new show, Beef, with Ali Wong, which I enjoyed very much.
Marc:And on Thursday, Alex Borstein, who has her own comedy special coming out on Prime Video, as well as the new season of The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel.
Marc:All right?
Marc:Okay?
Marc:Here's some guitar.
Marc:Is that all of it?
Marc:Are we good?
Marc:Great.
Thank you.
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey.
Marc:La Fonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.
Marc:Jesus told me so.