Episode 1422 - Cathy Ladman
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast how are you
Marc:Today on the show, Kathy Ladman is here.
Marc:Now, she's an actor and a comedian.
Marc:But Kathy Ladman, when I was a doorman at the Comedy Store back in 87, she was there.
Marc:She was one of the comics I saw all the time.
Marc:There was a handful of women working.
Marc:You know, the comedy story is always, even back in the 80s, there were a lot of women working.
Marc:It was her and Karen Haber, Jan Hart, Karen Babbitt, Carrie Snow, Jan Karam.
Marc:that were working at the store.
Marc:And she was very funny.
Marc:She reminded me, she was very Jewish to me and was a joke writer, wrote point of view jokes, reminded me of my friend Chuck Sklar, reminded me of people that I grew up admiring.
Marc:And I used to see her when I was just a drugged up little door guy at the comedy store.
Marc:And I hadn't seen her in a while, but I knew she was still kind of in the game.
Marc:I knew she never stopped.
Marc:And then she showed up
Marc:on Fallon like a few months ago.
Marc:And Kathy's older than me.
Marc:I'm only saying that because I thought it was a pretty menschy thing for Jimmy to do, you know, that she got on and ask her how that happened because you just don't see women, let alone even some dudes who,
Marc:who like she proudly has her hair, her natural color.
Marc:It's gray.
Marc:And she was just knocking it out of the park with the jokes on Fallon.
Marc:And I was so happy for her, but I was happy.
Marc:I was fucking proud of fucking Jimmy for doing that.
Marc:You just don't see people on major shows at that age.
Marc:It's a sad truth.
Marc:And a woman to boot.
Marc:So I was pretty impressed with everybody involved.
Marc:And I hadn't seen her in a long time.
Marc:And it was great to talk to her.
Marc:You know, I had always assumed that she kind of didn't like me, but I also kind of thought that she might have, like, somebody took me to lunch
Marc:And talked to me.
Marc:I can't remember.
Marc:I thought it was her, but it might have been Karen Haber.
Marc:Somebody was like, why are you so fucked up?
Marc:You're a young guy.
Marc:You're getting all fucked up.
Marc:You're in trouble.
Marc:One of those conversations.
Marc:One of the women comics did that to me when I was a 22-year-old coke freak.
Marc:at the door sweating at the comedy store.
Marc:But it wasn't her because I asked her.
Marc:So look, you guys, I'll be at the Ice House in Pasadena, the newly renovated Ice House in Pasadena on Thursday, April 27th at 8 p.m.
Marc:You can go to wtfpod.com slash tour to get tickets.
Marc:I feel like I should put my Largo dates up there, too.
Marc:I'm going to be at Largo April 14th.
Marc:I'm at Largo.
Marc:So you can go to Largo's website.
Marc:I think John Mulaney's going to be on.
Marc:He said he would.
Marc:We'll see what happens.
Marc:And somebody else.
Marc:I guess what I'm doing is I'm forcing myself into the position to get new material.
Marc:I guess that's what's happening.
Marc:I didn't think it would happen so soon.
Marc:I'm not sure what it looks like or what it is.
Marc:I kind of got an idea.
Marc:I don't know if everybody's going to like it.
Marc:But...
Marc:I'm moving away from, you know, placating the panicked into something more personal and more important.
Marc:I mean, I've always been a little personal, but, you know, in terms of doing jokes about culture and about politics, all you know where I stand.
Marc:I've said it over and over again.
Marc:And, you know, it's it's not my job.
Marc:To give you temporary relief.
Marc:Or make you feel less alone.
Marc:Around politics.
Marc:Or speculating about global issues.
Marc:There's deeper shit to do.
Marc:There's more important things to do.
Marc:Like hey.
Marc:If you're walking around the world.
Marc:With mental problems.
Marc:That you know you have.
Marc:And you're taking hostages.
Marc:And you're making people miserable.
Marc:Or you're destroying yourself.
Marc:It's a.
Marc:Let's get into that.
Marc:You know, why is that happening?
Marc:All of the problems, almost, I would say 90% of the world's problems are personal.
Marc:Is that too much?
Marc:Is it?
Marc:Look, man, there's just areas.
Marc:And look, I have to tell on myself, too.
Marc:So that's where I'm going to be.
Marc:That's the direction I feel like I'm going.
Marc:There was this fleeting idea I had that, hey, maybe I should do a bunch of clean, mundane comedy, just observational comedy with no cussing and no menace.
Marc:Maybe that would be the next great experiment for me to just kind of like do a clean hour, do a pleasant hour, an hour you'd like your mom to see.
Marc:Unfortunately, there's many people whose moms like me just the way I am.
Marc:So I don't know.
Marc:I think the the clean hour is a fleeting idea and it's going to be something more menacing and more personal, but completely relatable to you fuckers that know.
Marc:You fuckers know, and I know you, so let's get on with it.
Marc:That's where I'm going.
Marc:Do you dig?
Marc:Are you with me?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I was so excited to find a car wash after all these rains.
Marc:For some reason, all the car washes where you put your car on the track and it drags it through the brushes, there's not many of them around anymore, and I enjoy those.
Marc:I like the ones where you can watch your car go through, so you get this weird proximity accomplishment.
Marc:The sort of like, you know, like I'm not really doing it, but I feel like I'm doing it because I'm watching it.
Marc:I'm watching it in the machine.
Marc:But I found one of those, so I got my car washed and it rained today.
Marc:So whatever, doesn't matter.
Marc:These are the things I do.
Marc:Several supermarkets, run back and forth, forgot parsley.
Marc:This is the day.
Marc:Put the laundry in.
Marc:Yeah, this is the day.
Marc:Make a thing, make a dressing, make some rice for the week.
Marc:Huh?
Marc:What am I...
Marc:But what do I do?
Marc:What do I do with the time?
Marc:By the end of the day, I'm harried and exhausted trying to get dinner ready.
Marc:For who?
Marc:For myself?
Marc:For Kit?
Marc:Ridiculous.
Marc:These are important things, man.
Marc:This is what I do to avoid my feelings.
Marc:I put a lot of work and do a lot of little things, some of it edible, so I don't have to feel all the feelings.
Marc:What are you doing?
Marc:What are you up to?
Marc:What do you have to show for your own emotional repression?
Marc:Anything amazing?
Marc:But I'm trying to catch up on movies.
Marc:I'm trying to watch movies.
Marc:I watched an entire series with Ali Wong and Steven Yeung.
Marc:Because I talked to him about the series Beef, which I enjoyed.
Marc:I watched all of...
Marc:This upcoming Love and Death series about Candy Montgomery for to talk to Lily Rabe soon.
Marc:So I'm watching a lot of stuff for for work.
Marc:But then last night I'm on Criterion and I'm like, man, there's a lot here.
Marc:Do I need to watch all the Buster Keaton shorts again?
Marc:Will that bring me joy?
Marc:Will that really make me laugh?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I don't think so.
Marc:And then I somehow I decided, all right, maybe it's time to watch Heaven's Gate.
Marc:It's gotten a lot of bad press over the years, but then I've heard maybe it's not as bad as they say it is.
Marc:It's still three and a half hours long.
Marc:And I really had to weigh it out.
Marc:Like, do I have the time right now?
Marc:Is this how I want to spend the time?
Marc:Should I do it in pieces?
Marc:Do I give a fuck?
Marc:So I started it and I was like, it's OK.
Marc:You know, it's nice to see Chris Christopherson.
Marc:OK.
Marc:But I didn't follow through with it.
Marc:I decided to watch some other movie, an Adam Orgoyen movie who I like.
Marc:And I'd never heard of this movie.
Marc:I think it's called Felicia's Journey with Bob Hoskins.
Marc:And what a disturbing, fucked up movie that was.
Marc:I don't even know, like there are movies, like sometimes I ask myself, who decided this was a story?
Marc:But then I see that it's a book and that makes more sense to me.
Marc:Because sometimes when you take a movie from a novel, it's like, this doesn't, this isn't like a regular movie that someone just decided to make a movie.
Marc:This is some, this guy is, this is a fucked up character.
Marc:The sort of embarrassed son of a cooking show host who has long passed
Marc:And he still lives in her house.
Marc:And apparently he's got a killing women problem.
Marc:I don't want to spoil anything, but the movie's from fucking 1999.
Marc:So deal with it.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I found it very disturbing and I and I'm a little haunted by it.
Marc:So that's what I did with my time last night.
Marc:But I also spent the day listening to some records, listening to some Charles Mingus, listening to some Pharaoh Sanders, went upstairs, sat in my office, among my stuff.
Marc:Did some reading, almost done with my book about QAnon and the idea that it is orchestrated, intentional, agi-prop brain fuckers, but all sort of on purpose.
Marc:Nonetheless, it's a good breakdown of the conspiracy connectivity.
Marc:See?
Marc:I'm still staying on the pulse, man.
Marc:I still want to know.
Marc:I'm still in it.
Marc:So look, you guys...
Marc:Kathy Ladman is going to be performing in South Carolina next month.
Marc:And then at the Pico Theater in Los Angeles at the end of April, you can go to Kathy Ladman dot com for her dates and to check out her stuff.
Marc:She's got this one woman show about anorexia that I don't know.
Marc:Find out what she's doing at these dates because it sounded pretty fucking interesting.
Marc:You'll hear.
Marc:I'm going to talk to her right now.
Marc:Listen.
Yeah.
Marc:You did a great job on The Tonight Show the other day.
Guest:I mean, I had fun.
Guest:It had been a long time since I'd done a late night set.
Marc:I can't remember the last time I did like that.
Marc:I usually do panel.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, you're certainly in a very different place in your career than I am.
Marc:I choose to do panel.
Marc:I mean, like, and I'm given that choice, but I mean, the whole doing a late night set is its own thing.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:I was just talking to Eliza about it.
Marc:I was texting with Eliza.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Marc:Did you know her?
Guest:I don't know her personally.
Marc:Because she told me that you were working a set.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Because I brought you up.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And then I realized it was that set.
Guest:And it bombed at the improv.
Guest:I walked into the improv and this guy who was like a stoner was on stage doing really well.
Guest:And I looked out to the audience.
Guest:They were all in their 20s.
Guest:And I thought, well, this isn't going to go well.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But...
Guest:And traditionally, when I run a late night set in a club, it bombs.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Except in New York, it did well, which made me a little bit nervous, to tell you the truth.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:Well, I mean, that's because New York is a different expectation.
Marc:It's a very different comedy world there.
Guest:It is.
Guest:And I did it at the Comedy Cellar and they're great audiences.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's like you got to hit them.
Marc:I mean, you got to have the jokes.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Here it's like, you know, you can ramble on.
Guest:I know.
Marc:And I don't know what's going on in some rooms, but I think it was a produced show that night.
Marc:It was Brian Monarch's show, which is a weird bunch.
Guest:You mean at the improv?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, I don't know.
Guest:I have no idea.
Marc:They just threw you the, they just gave you.
Guest:They just gave me a, I asked for that specific night because it was the only night I could do it.
Guest:And how long had it been since you'd done one?
Guest:A late night spot?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Seven years.
Wow.
Guest:That's a long time.
Marc:It was like four and a half minutes.
Guest:It was very short.
Guest:It was four minutes and 20 seconds.
Guest:And I thought it was longer because I thought it was running longer.
Guest:Maybe my timing was just different out here.
Guest:And he said, you can add another joke if you want.
Guest:And I said, you know, I'd rather not mess with it.
Guest:I'd rather just keep it the way it is.
Guest:So I just did a little bit short.
Marc:It's so odd, you know, that, I mean, we're talking.
Marc:I saw you recently, not too long ago.
Marc:But, I mean, you were...
Marc:working the store when i was a door guy oh my god that's i mean that's when i knew you from yes like i was i was a doorman a coked up uh weirdo wow in 1986 yeah and i moved out here in 85 it was 87 it was 87 i was a i was a doorman at the store and like i would see you like every night
Guest:Yes.
Guest:When I was in town.
Guest:When I was on the road, obviously I wasn't there, but I could work.
Guest:I basically worked six nights a week at the store.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I made myself take one night off.
Marc:I know.
Marc:It was crazy back then.
Marc:And I have some weird—like, I might be manufacturing this memory because, I mean, I knew you.
Marc:Like, what did you know?
Marc:I was just a door guy.
Marc:I mean, I doubt you remember me.
Guest:Really.
Guest:Well, I don't, and I'm sorry.
Guest:It's okay.
Guest:But if you were coked up, then—
Marc:Well, no, I had this weird thing, and I think my brain made it up that you told me to get my shit together.
Marc:No.
Guest:That's not who I am.
Guest:I wouldn't have done that.
Marc:Never?
Guest:No, I don't think.
Guest:Not like that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, I mean it wouldn't have been condescending.
Guest:No, but we would have known each other more intimately for me to say that.
Marc:It must have been somebody else.
Marc:I swear to God.
Guest:Maybe.
Marc:Some comic, some woman who was of your generation of people at that time, I think took me to lunch.
Guest:Was it Carrie Snow?
Marc:No.
Guest:Carrie Snow says hi.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:How's she doing?
Guest:She's doing okay.
Guest:You know, she had a stroke a while ago.
Guest:Yeah, but she's doing okay.
Marc:Maybe it could have been Karen Haber.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:That's a possibility.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I could hear her doing that.
Marc:Rock.
Rock.
Marc:You have to get your shit together.
Marc:Something.
Marc:Okay, so you moved here in 86?
Marc:85.
Marc:85?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:From where?
Marc:From New York.
Guest:I was going out with Steve Middleman.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:No.
Guest:We were together for three and a half years.
Guest:Oh, wait.
Marc:No.
Marc:Let's go back then.
Guest:So where'd you grow up?
Guest:I grew up in Queens.
Marc:What part?
Guest:Little Neck, right on the edge, right on the border of Nassau County.
Guest:It was Little Neck, then Great Neck is in Nassau County.
Marc:I knew people in Great Neck.
Guest:Yeah, but the very different types of towns.
Guest:As my father said, Little Neck is a two-fair zone.
Guest:You have to take a bus and then a subway into the city.
Guest:It's a two-fair zone.
Marc:So you grew up in a big Jewish family?
Guest:Yeah, well, not big.
Guest:You know, three girls.
Guest:I'm the youngest of three.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Are these sisters still around?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Both my sisters, yeah.
Guest:Back east.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Doing regular lives?
Guest:Regular lives.
Guest:One of my sisters is a retired educator.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And my other sister is a retired speech therapist, audiologist.
Marc:And they're good?
Guest:I just said audiologist like I couldn't speak, ironically.
Guest:They're both well.
Guest:Yeah, they're both really well.
Marc:Oh, that's—and, like, New York Jews is still—to me, it's weird.
Marc:I keep noticing that there's less and less of them in comedy.
Guest:Is that true?
Guest:I guess that's true.
Guest:It's kind of true.
Guest:It used to be, like, predominantly, yes.
Marc:I know.
Marc:The whole New York thing, it's like they've just been—or maybe the identity—
Marc:is not the same.
Marc:I mean, because there was such an identity to New York Jewish comedy.
Marc:All the comedy come through there.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:All movies, TV shows.
Marc:It was all basically Jewish comedy.
Guest:Yeah, the Catskills.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And all the TV writers and movie writers.
Marc:It's like it is.
Guest:Sid Caesar's staff.
Guest:Yeah, all of them.
Marc:But I remember when I used to watch comedy when I was a kid, it was like they were all the Jewish guys.
Marc:And it's just not that whole identity is gone.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I mean, now comedy has become much more diverse, which is good.
Marc:It is good, obviously.
Marc:But like there was such a type like Larry David was is sort of one of the last of them.
Guest:Right.
Marc:In a way, you know.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And you like so when did you start to decide to do this?
Marc:What did your dad do?
Marc:Well, how much pressure did you get to not do it?
Guest:Oh, God, got plenty of pressure.
Guest:Well, not as much as pressure to not do it, but not any encouragement to do it.
Guest:And kind of like indirect pressure to do something else.
Marc:Guilt, that's called.
Guest:Yes, you're right.
Marc:You're right.
Marc:That's a definition of indirect pressure.
Guest:Indirect pressure to do something else.
Guest:I decided that I became interested in comedy at the age of eight.
Marc:Because of why?
Guest:Why?
Guest:Because my parents had these comedy albums that I used to listen to.
Marc:Like who?
Guest:In particular, Nichols and May Exam and Doctors.
Guest:Oh, yeah, right.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I memorized the whole album.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I used to watch The Ed Sullivan Show.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And if I could stay up late on the weekends, I would watch late night shows.
Guest:And I just loved comedy.
Guest:And through my dad, I think I was most interested in it.
Guest:And then when I was 13...
Guest:I was voted class clown, which was like the best thing that could have ever happened to me.
Guest:And I decided I wanted to be a comedian.
Guest:At 13?
Guest:At 13.
Guest:Yeah, I kind of felt that.
Guest:And it took me another lifetime to start.
Marc:Yeah, well, I mean, what are you going to do?
Marc:I mean, it's hard to know how to start.
Guest:I was terrified.
Marc:I mean, terrified, but also, like, where do I go?
Marc:Like, I wanted to do it when I was 11 or 12.
Marc:And it wasn't until I went to a comedy show when I was maybe in high school and visiting New York.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And I went to the comic strip.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And I saw Paul Reiser sitting in a booth.
Marc:And I was like, you know, and I'd seen him in Diner.
Marc:I didn't know him as a comic, but I saw him that night.
Marc:I said, I want to do this.
Marc:How do I do it?
Marc:And he goes, you just got to do it.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:So are you from Boston?
Yeah.
Marc:No, I grew up in New Mexico.
Marc:My folks are from Jersey.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Marc:So I always had sort of a connection there.
Marc:I went to college in Boston.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:I was a Becky two or three times a year.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:I'm genetically Jersey.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, you have an East Coast feel to you, definitely.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I grew up with that.
Guest:I don't look at you and say New Mexico.
Guest:No.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:How would you notice anyone from New Mexico?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Very like kind of Hopi kind of patterns on their head.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Turquoise jewelry.
Marc:I have that.
Marc:I got some turquoise jewelry.
Guest:Yeah, you do have some turquoise.
Marc:But yeah, no, Jersey Jews is where I come from.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:So 13, but then you just, what?
Marc:You just...
Guest:Then I went to school and my mother, I went to college when I was 16 because I was so unhappy in high school that I accelerated the hell out.
Marc:Oh, is that it?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:You had to get out?
Marc:I had to get the fuck out.
Marc:So you had to apply yourself?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:That's where the intelligence came from, just misery?
Guest:Desperation, yes.
Guest:And so I went away to Albany.
Guest:I went to SUNY Albany.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's cold up here.
Guest:Yeah, but not that much colder than New York City.
Guest:And my mother encouraged me to take English education, so I'd have something to fall back on.
Marc:Of course, a good liberal arts degree, that means nothing.
Guest:Right, so I fell right back on it.
Guest:I mean, it was like I graduated, and I graduated in the middle of the year, so I never went to a high school graduation.
Marc:You weren't happy there either?
Well...
Guest:no no i graduated high school in the middle of the year in january i started college okay and then i graduated college in december so i never did a ceremony of graduation of either place of either place did you have friends yeah i have some high school friends now but not that many oh still a couple but i'm really um uh i was very unhappy in high school i mean i really well i was miserable i my both of my sisters were away at college
Marc:Is that big an age difference?
Marc:Oh, we're not.
Guest:One sister is four years older than I, and the other one is seven years older than I. So they were both away at school.
Guest:So I was alone, and the scrutiny was all on me.
Guest:From who?
Guest:From my parents.
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:And my father was very strict and mean.
Guest:What did he do?
Guest:Oh, he was a CPA, but he hated it.
Guest:So my whole life, he owned a bowling alley.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yes, in Massapequa Park on Long Island, 25 miles away from our home.
Marc:What was the name of the bowling alley?
Guest:300 Bowl.
Guest:They would answer, go, 300.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Sebastian's doing a joke about back in the day when you call a bowling alley, because apparently he called a bowling alley and he got like a call center to book a lane.
Marc:He says, remember when you call, just be like, yeah, I think 12 is open.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:I used to go there sometimes with a friend.
Guest:That was a big treat.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And we would spend the day at the bowling alley and we would help out.
Guest:I would give out lanes and rent the shoes.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Oh, it was so much fun.
Marc:Was your father happy there?
Guest:I think he was.
Guest:He really enjoyed the business.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, after he was a CPA and didn't enjoy it, he went into a couple of other businesses, the eyeglass frame business, and then maybe something else.
Guest:And then all I knew was the bowling alley.
Guest:I wasn't alive or cognizant anyway.
Marc:It's just so wild when I hear about people's parents who just sort of like, you know, the things they try.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're just to try eyeglasses.
Marc:What is that?
Guest:You know, it was a business.
Guest:It was a business.
Guest:There were entrepreneurs, these guys.
Guest:Four partners together, people that my dad knew from the Army days and stuff.
Guest:And they said, this seems like a good moneymaker.
Guest:Let's try this.
Marc:My father got out of medicine.
Marc:He was old.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:And he decided he wanted to be a mailman.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:It lasted a week.
Guest:It's a very romantic notion.
Guest:It was.
Marc:I don't know what he thought.
Guest:He thought he was going to be like, how are you doing?
Guest:You might be a little bit too young to remember the show The Merry Mailman.
Marc:No.
Marc:Yeah, you're too young.
Marc:But I can understand how he thought it would be fun somehow.
Guest:Yeah, but one rainy day.
Marc:Not good.
Guest:Not good.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I think it took one day of just him realizing no one gave a shit about their mailman.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So you're doing the bowling.
Marc:He's doing a bowling alley.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:You go to college.
Marc:So you're out and you go back home to Little Neck?
Guest:Well, I went back to Little Neck for a short time.
Guest:And my sister, Leslie, the one who's four years older than I, she got a job.
Guest:Her husband was going to dental school in Philly at Temple, I believe.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she got a job teaching in the Abington School District, which is just north of Philly.
Guest:I like Philly.
Guest:Me too.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And when she got the job, they were living there temporarily at my parents' house.
Guest:And the guy called and he said, is Leslie there?
Guest:I just wanted to tell her that we'd like to hire her.
Guest:And I said, oh, my God, that's great.
Guest:Do you have a job for me?
Yeah.
Guest:And he goes, well, I don't know when you come to visit Leslie, maybe we can set you up on a couple of interviews.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which he did.
Guest:And I got one of the jobs.
Guest:I taught English.
Guest:I taught English to eighth graders.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I met my best friend who is still my best friend.
Marc:For life.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:40, almost 47 years.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She's my best friend.
Marc:So you taught for a while.
Guest:I taught for one year.
Guest:Didn't want to do it.
Guest:Didn't want to do it.
Guest:Like my dad and being a CPA.
Marc:It's the story of your life.
Marc:Everything.
Marc:You just got to get out.
Guest:Dissatisfaction.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You got to get out.
You're right.
Guest:I never thought about that.
Guest:But you're right.
Guest:I got to do this.
Guest:Now I have to leave.
Guest:But I knew I didn't want to be a teacher.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I decided I was going to move out to L.A.
Guest:In fact, I went to visit Jerry Seinfeld, whom I've known since I was 15.
Marc:How do you know him?
Guest:He and I were on a teen tour together to Israel.
Guest:And he was my first serious boyfriend.
Marc:Come on.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And I told him that he'd make a great stand-up comedy.
Marc:You went on a team tour to Israel with Jerry?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So you didn't go to high school again?
Marc:It was one of those teams?
Guest:No, he lived in Massapequa.
Guest:He lived close to my father's bowling alley.
Guest:My father knew Jerry's dad because Jerry's dad was in the sign business.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's so funny.
Guest:And my father would say, he's very expensive.
Yeah.
Marc:I went on a teen tour, but not to Israel.
Guest:Where'd you go?
Guest:Domestic?
Marc:Yeah, we flew into Colorado and did like, you know, the States on this.
Marc:Oh, fun.
Marc:Barren teen tours.
Guest:Yes, I remember that.
Guest:But this was a very, this was not a, I call it a teen tour because there's really no other term I can think of.
Guest:It was a very culturally, Jewish culturally based tour.
Guest:My parents, my mother was still trying to shove Judaism down my throat at that point.
Marc:But how religious were they really?
Marc:Just like kind of conservative middle class?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But my mother was very, very into the whole culture of Judaism.
Guest:And my father somewhat, but became less so as he got older.
Marc:Did you have grandparents that were off the boat kind of thing?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Both sets of grandparents.
Marc:So they came in, they were on the, like came into New York City and eventually moved out to the island or something?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:My grandparents always lived in Manhattan, upper Manhattan.
Guest:Upper Manhattan.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Both sets.
Guest:Both sets.
Marc:And he had that whole world.
Marc:What culture did they bring with them?
Marc:Polish, German, what?
Guest:Well, one, my mother's parents were Polish-Austrian.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because the border kept changing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And my father's parents were Russian.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But here's a great little story about my grandmother, my mom's mom, Nana.
Guest:We called her Nana.
Guest:And she was a good baker.
Guest:She was a really good baker.
Guest:And she was giving me a recipe for some cake that she made.
Guest:And she goes, you take a glass of flour and a glass and a half of water.
Guest:And she's giving me all this.
Guest:I said, what do you mean a glass?
Guest:She goes, here.
Guest:And she takes out a yurt site glass.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, the memorial glass.
Guest:They used to be bigger.
Guest:They used to be bigger.
Guest:They're not as tiny as they are now.
Guest:And that was her standard measure.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Was a yurt site glass.
Guest:Which I thought was so great.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, that's where they came from.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that's where you end up.
Guest:If you keep eating the candle.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And then you burn another candle.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you have one for somebody else to bake with.
Yeah.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:I have some memories of that stuff.
Guest:Oh, so let me tell you this story.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So I was doing The Tonight Show last week, and the makeup and hair women were terrific and were talking.
Guest:And I asked the makeup woman, where do you live?
Guest:And she said, I live in Inwood.
Guest:I said, oh, wow.
Guest:And my sister was in the room with me.
Guest:And we said, oh, our grandmother lived there.
Guest:And I said, our grandmother lived at this address.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she says...
Guest:That's where I live.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:And then my sister called my aunt and found out the apartment.
Guest:She lived on the same floor as my grandmother.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:We all had the chills.
Guest:It was so great.
Marc:My grandparents, my earliest memory, well, they lived in Jersey City.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Marc:And then Bayonne.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:And then my father's people ended up, the Russians ended up in Asbury Park somehow, Jersey Shore.
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:But so you're on a teen tour?
Guest:So and Jerry and I met and we really liked each other.
Marc:You did the whole Israel thing?
Guest:Was that the only time you went there?
Guest:No, I've been four times.
Guest:That was my first time.
Guest:I was 15.
Guest:And and we stayed in touch and we continued to go out with each other and we would rendezvous at the bowling alley.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Because he was in the next town, and then sometimes he would come back and stay.
Marc:And no one's doing comedy yet.
Marc:You're just kids.
Guest:No.
Guest:I told him he would be—I wanted to be a comedian at that point, but he, I guess, hadn't considered it, and I told him he would be a great stand-up comic.
Marc:Was he always like he is?
Guest:He was very funny.
Guest:Always very funny.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:In that way?
Yes.
Marc:Because, like, I've interviewed him, and he's like, you know, we're very different.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And he's a very controlled guy.
Guest:Yeah, he was different when we were kids.
Marc:Both his parents were orphans.
Guest:Oh, that I didn't know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Marc:Which, it's kind of interesting.
Guest:Cal and Betty.
Marc:Yeah, you know them, huh?
Marc:Yeah, of course I knew them.
Guest:Of course, you grew up with them, right?
Marc:You've been over to the house.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I thought that was a very interesting detail.
Guest:Yeah, that is interesting.
Guest:And Jerry, I mean, Jerry has a sister.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But so, okay, so you go out?
Guest:We go out with each other and then I broke up with him.
Marc:But were we just like making out?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was a kid.
Guest:I was a kid.
Guest:And then I went away to college and he went away to college.
Guest:And then for one semester in my senior year, I went to Queens College.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he was going to Queens College and we sort of started going out again.
Guest:Crazy.
Guest:And then when I really wanted to start doing stand-up and was too scared to do it, at the time I was watching The Tonight Show, which was very painful for me to watch anything of comedy because...
Guest:I wanted to do it so badly.
Guest:I was too frightened.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Were there women that you were watching that were inspirational?
Marc:I mean, because like I try because I know that I was looking around at stuff you did.
Marc:There was some event you did in tribute to certain, you know, women.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And like, you know, Bell Barth's name was out there.
Marc:And I'm like, oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah, I didn't know of her.
Guest:I mean, but I would watch Toadie Fields on The Sunshine, Phyllis Stiller, and Joan Rivers, of course.
Guest:Belle Barthes was filthy.
Guest:Yes, she was filthy, yes.
Guest:She had those party albums.
Marc:Yeah, I have some of those.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's kind of crazy.
Guest:So then I saw him on his first Tonight Show, and I was so naive.
Marc:This is like, oh, after college?
Guest:Yeah, this was like 1979 or something, maybe.
Marc:But this is like you would watch at night all the time.
Guest:I was watching as a depressed person.
Marc:But did you know that he had gone that way?
Guest:Yes, I knew because he started like right out of college.
Guest:He started.
Guest:And we were in touch with each other intermittently.
Guest:And then we kind of lost touch a little bit.
Guest:I was really depressed.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Why?
Guest:Because I wasn't doing what I wanted to do with my life.
Marc:That's it?
Marc:You don't have the biological depression?
Marc:No, not really.
Marc:I don't think so.
Guest:But, I mean, I don't think so.
Guest:I don't think it ran in my family.
Marc:You're a Jew that didn't get it?
Marc:You got out of this without any psychological problems?
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:I'm not saying that.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:I have plenty of psychological problems.
Guest:But they're managed.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Like how?
Marc:Like what?
Guest:Medication and therapy.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like what were the struggles?
Yeah.
Guest:Well, anorexia was a big struggle for me.
Guest:For the whole life?
Guest:Since I was about 19.
Marc:Oh, it started at 19?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:My mother's anorexia.
Guest:She is?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:Does she deal with it or no?
Marc:It's her life.
Guest:Hmm.
Guest:I'm sorry.
Marc:She manages it, I think.
Marc:Yeah, I'm totally, like, I'm totally, my entire emotional core is directly affected by
Marc:Like body image issues and food issues is the bane of my existence.
Marc:Deeply.
Guest:And it's weird.
Guest:It's tough.
Guest:It's a tough one because we all have to eat.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, I've kind of assessed it to my degree of it.
Marc:But it was really about her because it's all she gave a shit about.
Guest:Yeah, and that's very alienating.
Guest:No, it's very alienating for you as a kid to come second to that.
Marc:I used to do a joke.
Marc:I said, I think for the first nine years of my life, my mother just saw me as her fat.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:That's very funny and very, very true.
Marc:Very specific.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, that was the whole thing.
Marc:It's like she thought I was chunky, and it was like a disaster.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:I mean, to project that onto a child is very, very detrimental.
Guest:That's what I grew up with.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And my dad was nuts.
Marc:But how does it come on just at 19?
Marc:That must have affected you.
Guest:Well, the way I—of course it affected me.
Guest:I mean, the way I— But you say you're depressed.
Marc:It had to have something to do with it, no?
Marc:No.
Guest:Yeah, I think it had something to do with it.
Guest:But I mean, I still have, I mean, I have major depression and anorexia is a manifestation of it.
Guest:But although now they say that anorexia lives on a chromosome and it doesn't necessarily become manifest unless you live in an environment that's conducive and nurturing to the disease to make it proliferate.
Marc:Forcing you to eat?
Yeah.
Guest:No, I mean, overbearing parents, perfectionism, the need to control, and I have all those things.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Huh.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I've worked so hard on this.
Marc:You did a one-person show, right?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I'm doing it again at the end of April at the Pico Theater in West LA.
Guest:Yeah, I hope you can come.
Marc:I'd come, but I mean, what, do you tour with it?
Guest:Well, it's just starting.
Guest:It's just starting out now.
Guest:So I haven't yet found a way to tour with it and make it a viable thing for me to do.
Guest:So I'm going to start to do like festivals.
Marc:So but do you just this is new?
Marc:This is new.
Guest:I mean, I did it once in at the Pico last April.
Guest:How'd it go?
Guest:It went really well.
Guest:It went really well.
Guest:But it needs to have, I need to get some money behind it so I can do like a three-week run to really give it a chance so I can get it reviewed and pull people in.
Guest:So I'm going to do this festival in New York in the fall.
Guest:What is that?
Guest:It's called the United Solo Festival.
Guest:I was supposed to do it and then COVID hit.
Marc:I got three words for you.
Marc:Jewish community centers.
Yeah.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I know.
Guest:But I think this has more.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:It has more to it.
Marc:I wouldn't really wish that on anybody.
Marc:You were very good.
Guest:You're lovely up there.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:You remind me of my grandson.
Marc:But so it took you this long to process it in this way?
Guest:Well, you know, it's another story.
Guest:I never could find a way to talk about it in comedy clubs.
Guest:I just couldn't find a way in.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Did you try?
Guest:I did.
Guest:And it just, the audience would like tighten up.
Marc:That's my favorite place for an audience.
Yeah.
Guest:Maybe I missed the boat.
Guest:No, it's hard.
Guest:But they would tighten up.
Guest:They would get so uncomfortable.
Guest:You could talk about alcoholism.
Guest:You could talk about cancer.
Guest:But when I mentioned anorexia, they would look at me and be frightened.
Guest:And I just couldn't find a way.
Guest:I needed a different venue.
Marc:But you're also a person that, you know, you're a joke writer.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But my show's funny.
Marc:My show's funny, too.
Marc:But joke writing is restrictive.
Guest:Yes, it is.
Guest:You're right.
Marc:So if you're trying to do that around this.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:It's an added layer of challenge.
Guest:I have one joke, real joke about it that I did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I say that I was turned down for health insurance because I have a history of anorexia.
Guest:Well, that's what they said.
Guest:I know why they really turned me down.
Guest:It's because I'm fat.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:So that's like the only joke joke.
Guest:But, you know, I wanted to get more truth.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:That's glib.
Guest:And I didn't want to be glib.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it took me I'm embarrassed to say it took me several iterations, 20 years to get this on stage from the first inception of idea of an idea that I wanted to do it to.
Marc:And what was the idea?
Guest:Well, just that I wanted to talk about it.
Marc:Empathetic and helpful.
Guest:Yes, and help people.
Guest:Like, I really feel like I want to be of service.
Marc:And also, you had to come out the other side of it to some degree.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:You had to have control over your control issues.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:I'm spiraling downwards.
Guest:But, yeah, it took me a long time until I found the right part.
Guest:And I'm working with this woman that I did a play with about 12 years ago.
Guest:Her name is Laura Coyle.
Guest:And she co-wrote it with me, and she's also directing it.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So we do it April 28th to the 30th at the Pico Theater in West L.A.
Marc:That's great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a nice little space.
Guest:And so...
Marc:So you're 19 when this starts to happen.
Marc:How does it manifest?
Guest:Well, and the inciting incident was I had this best friend with whom I was very enmeshed in college, and all of a sudden she dumped me.
Guest:And I was...
Guest:I was completely, I didn't know what to do.
Guest:I was so, I don't even know what the word is now, Mark.
Guest:Help me here.
Marc:Devastated?
Guest:I was devastated.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:And you felt like you were invisible.
Guest:Okay, there you go.
Guest:Okay, that's a good one.
Guest:But I felt like all of a sudden my rock was gone, and I didn't know what to do.
Marc:Why do people like us get that attached to somebody?
Guest:It's so unhealthy.
Marc:No, I know, but were your parents selfish?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I mean, I loved my parents, but yes, they were selfish, each of them.
Marc:Because I used to do that, too, where I'd latch on to a friend.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Or were you the kind of person, like, if you decided you wanted someone to be your friend, you would make it happen?
Marc:Like, you'd pester them, almost?
Guest:No, I didn't pester them, but I was very proactive.
Guest:I was definitely proactive.
Marc:And you had that one friend.
Guest:Yes, I would have a best friend, and I would have other friends, too.
Guest:But this was a very toxic kind of relationship.
Guest:It really wasn't.
Guest:And when she dumped me, that's when I went to Queens College for a semester.
Guest:I had to get out of Albany.
Guest:I just couldn't even stay there.
Marc:Oh, it was the first year of college?
Guest:It was my first semester of my senior year.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:And so what happened was she and I went on a diet together.
Guest:And we got these diet pills.
Guest:We went to this quack doctor in town that all the young women were going to.
Guest:And we got these diet pills.
Guest:And I would take them in my controlled manner.
Guest:I wouldn't just take them haphazardly and a lot of them at the time.
Guest:I would take them a few at a time, a few a week, and I would lose a little bit of weight.
Guest:This is great.
Guest:This is great.
Guest:And I basically went from...
Guest:And over a period of, I think, two years, I went from 127 pounds to under 85 pounds.
Guest:And I still thought I was fat.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I still thought I was fat.
Marc:Felt great, though, right?
Guest:Well, you know... It's a light.
Guest:It didn't feel great, though.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:It didn't feel great because I couldn't appreciate it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And it looked horrible.
Marc:I remember my freshman year of college, I...
Marc:I starved myself to the point where I probably got down to 160-something.
Marc:And I just, like, I was so excited to go home and show my mother.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:And there's pictures of me.
Marc:I'm like, look at the size of my head.
Marc:No, of course my mother's sort of like, you got a little skinny.
Marc:I'm like, go fuck yourself.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:After all that.
Marc:It's so funny because she's always been that way.
Marc:But sadly, she's doing okay.
Marc:But like during COVID and now she had some health issues, she's put on weight that she's not going to take off.
Marc:And I just – she's got no position on it anymore.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Like I go there.
Marc:I'm like, how are you doing?
Marc:Like I'm waiting for this sort of like you look a little – can't do it, can you?
Marc:No.
Marc:It's so mean and weird, but I'm glad she got fat.
Oh, my God.
Guest:It's horrible.
Guest:That's so horrible.
Guest:She's not fat.
Guest:I'm sure she's not, but maybe she thinks she is.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:But, I mean, I weigh more now than I thought I'd ever weigh.
Guest:And you know what?
Guest:I don't love my body.
Guest:I wish I did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I accept it.
Marc:I think about it all the time, like most of the day.
Guest:Your body?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:About like, you know, like, do I not?
Guest:So you do a lot of self-checking.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I don't pinch as much as I used to.
Guest:You know what?
Marc:I got another style.
Guest:I'm a woman.
Guest:You got another what?
Marc:I got another style of check.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Marc:I don't do the pinching so much.
Guest:Oh, what do you do?
Marc:I just kind of pull it up right here.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:Wow, you got it.
Guest:You're in it.
Guest:I know.
Guest:You're in it.
Guest:I am.
Guest:So, yeah, I mean, to reach a level of acceptance is really comforting.
Guest:I mean, I realize that I don't have to like something in order to accept it.
Guest:And it's comforting.
Guest:Interesting.
Marc:And that helped the brain, the anorexic brain.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And, you know, I might never really love the way I look at it.
Guest:But I accept that because that's who I am.
Marc:But even in life, even like, you know, there's that sort of thing like, why is that person?
Marc:Like, fuck that person, this or that.
Marc:Like, I have recovery in other areas.
Marc:You know, I'm a sober person.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Oh, OK.
Guest:So we both.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:So the powerlessness thing and, you know.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And the acceptance thing is real.
Marc:But so when you got that skinny, did your parents, weren't they concerned?
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:They were so concerned and confused.
Guest:And this was, you know, in the 70s when it really wasn't part of the vernacular.
Guest:And, you know, my father, this is my father's cure.
Guest:Why don't you just open the refrigerator and take a piece of rye bread?
Yeah.
Guest:literally quoting him.
Guest:And my mother would shove newspaper articles at me, which she did my whole life, which was very off-putting.
Guest:So I ignored that.
Marc:About anorexia?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was starting to kind of creep into the New York Times.
Guest:So I had this job in Manhattan.
Guest:I was working at an ad agency.
Guest:And my boss, I was in the billing department, and my boss was
Guest:was very concerned about me.
Guest:And this was at my low weight, like under 85 pounds.
Guest:And she said, you don't look good.
Guest:You really don't look good.
Guest:And you should go see a doctor.
Guest:So, and I couldn't listen to my parents.
Guest:I just couldn't, I couldn't take it in from them.
Right.
Guest:And so I went to see this doctor and, and bless him.
Guest:He diagnosed me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He said, you're anorexic.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he told, he suggested that I go to the Ackerman Institute for family therapy.
Guest:And somehow I gathered my family one by one.
Marc:Where was the Ackerman Institute?
Guest:East 70-something street.
Guest:And you did it.
Guest:And I did it.
Guest:And we did it for a year or two as a family.
Guest:And that started me on a road.
Guest:And then as I moved through life, different people suggested different ways to cope.
Marc:And comedy?
Marc:So this must kind of coincide with the comedy starting.
Yeah.
Guest:I started comedy in 81.
Guest:I was in family therapy in 78.
Guest:So, yes, it did.
Guest:It freed me up enough to face my own life and to do what I wanted to do in my life, which was a hugely important thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, part of my depression was was not being able to do what I wanted to do because of fear.
Guest:All fear.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:All fear.
Marc:So you're getting a whole different mindset around the eating that kind of spread out throughout your whole life.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And so when do you try comedy?
Marc:81?
Guest:81 I started.
Guest:At Good Times in New York.
Yeah.
Marc:I don't even know what that is.
Guest:Little, like, restaurant, like, they had a stage that you could see, like, it was like a fishbowl.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And a lot of us started there.
Guest:Who?
Guest:Well, do you know Paul Lyons?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:He and I have known each other for 41 years.
Guest:Rob Ross, he no longer does comedy.
Marc:Paul Lyons, I think I just saw at Silver's Memorial.
Guest:Oh, that's... Is that true?
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:Is he here?
Guest:I was not at Silver's Memorial.
Guest:I was out of town.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:Yeah, who else?
Guest:Rob Ross and other people that you wouldn't know.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because they're not around.
Guest:They're not doing that.
Marc:And it was a comedy club or an open mic thing or what?
Guest:It was not really a comedy club.
Guest:It was a restaurant club.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But a lot of people started there.
Guest:And it was a lower level place to start.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I took a comedy class.
Marc:Yeah, with who?
Guest:Dick Lorde.
Marc:Dick Ward.
Guest:Was a Catskills guy.
Marc:Yes, right.
Guest:And I met Larry Amaros in that comedy class.
Marc:Yes, Larry.
Marc:You're in touch with him?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, good.
Guest:And so you would bring in material.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then at one point Dick would say, okay, you're ready.
Guest:You got your five minutes.
Guest:Go to good times.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He would feed people into that class.
Marc:I feel like I talked to somebody else that took this class.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do you remember other people in there?
Guest:Just Larry.
Marc:Oh, funny.
Marc:So, okay.
Marc:So he told you you were ready and you go?
Guest:I go.
Guest:And then I was off and running.
Guest:You did well?
Guest:June 28th, 1981.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:First night I did great.
Guest:Then I went back the next night.
Guest:But it was fine.
Guest:I was in.
Guest:That was it.
Marc:And you had peers?
Guest:Yeah, I had peers telling me, you know, go try the dugout in the village and go to this place and that place.
Guest:And then I ran into Bill Maher one time at the improv.
Guest:And he said, look, if you ever need some help, give me a call.
Guest:And I thought, I'm going to take him up on it.
Guest:So I said, I really would like to audition at Catch Rising Star.
Guest:And he helped set me up on an audition.
Guest:It was December 5th, 1981, and I remember this because my nephew was born, and I was so happy and excited that my sister had a healthy baby that it took the pressure off of doing a set.
Guest:It just made it seem so much less important.
Guest:And I had a great set, and then I passed auditions there.
Guest:At catch.
Guest:At catch.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And that was my home club in the city.
Marc:Really?
Marc:So at that point...
Marc:Jerry was gone?
Guest:Jerry was in L.A.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because this was sort of after the big boom of the 70s.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And it was the beginning of the other thing, the 80s.
Marc:Right.
Marc:The comedy club spreading out everywhere.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:And because Belushi died in 81.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So the whole drug insanity catch that was attached to the hipsterness of it all was sort of dying down.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And Bud was no longer at the improv, right?
Guest:He was in L.A.
Marc:For a while, I guess.
Guest:And Silver had that place.
Guest:Oh, I became good friends with Silver in more recent years.
Guest:But I remember auditioning for her.
Guest:And I was so green.
Guest:I wore a skirt.
Guest:I wore jeans, skirt, and a crew neck sweater.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I did my set and I didn't do very well.
Guest:And I, like a novice, went around and I found her in the club and I said, do you have any feedback for me?
Guest:And she looked at me.
Guest:She looked off into space and then she looked back at me and she said, some things are better left unsaid.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:And I talked to her about this and she said, well, that's a terrible thing to say.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:She had her days, huh?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, when I first got to New York, she let me work there in the later 80s where I couldn't really work anywhere else.
Marc:I couldn't go to catch her.
Marc:The seller took years to get into those places.
Marc:Lucian kind of let me work eventually.
Guest:I worked at the comic strip in Catch, and I really didn't work the improv much when I was in New York.
Marc:Well, it was kind of a beat-up place in a way.
Guest:But it was also not transportation-wise.
Guest:I lived on the Upper West Side.
Guest:I would take a crosstown bus, and then I would just do those two clubs, which was great.
Marc:Right, because they were uptown.
Marc:Who wants to go to Hell's Kitchen?
Guest:Yeah, and it was out of the way.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So who's in your generation to catch now?
Marc:Who's still there?
Guest:Susie Essman, Joy Behar, Bev Mickens.
Marc:But like Larry was gone, Jerry was gone.
Guest:Larry was gone, Jerry was gone.
Marc:Colin was there?
Guest:Colin was at the—he was bartending at the comic strip.
Guest:Catch.
Guest:At the comic strip.
Marc:Oh, a comic strip?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, and, you know, Scott Blakeman was there.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Rob Ross, Bill Masters.
Marc:Bill Masters.
Guest:Good friend.
Guest:Still a good friend of mine.
Marc:I did a pilot with Bill Masters.
Guest:Oh, you did?
Marc:We wrote—I had a deal at— He's such a great guy.
Marc:Fox Studios, and his wife was running Fox.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And we couldn't get the pilot.
Yeah.
Guest:That's hilarious.
Guest:And Gail knows her business.
Guest:I'm sorry.
Guest:Can't do it.
Marc:That's so funny.
Marc:Well, yeah, so that's a lot of people.
Guest:I mean, tons of people.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, but Steve Schaefer.
Marc:Steve Schaefer.
Guest:Middleman was my boyfriend for three and a half years.
Marc:That's wild.
Guest:We lived together, and then we started to move to L.A., and then we broke up when we got back to New York, and then we moved out here separately in 85.
Marc:Oh, you came out to L.A., and then you went back?
Guest:I found us an apartment.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Guest:We went back.
Guest:We broke up.
Marc:Was it terrible or good?
Guest:The breakup?
Guest:Well, I mean, it was a breakup.
Guest:It wasn't great.
Guest:But then my father thought I wasn't going to go out to L.A.
Guest:I said, no, I'm still going out.
Guest:So we went out.
Guest:Steve and I moved out separately.
Guest:And Mitzi was really good to me at the comedy store.
Marc:Since what, 82?
Marc:85.
Marc:Oh, 85.
Guest:She was really good to me.
Guest:She had a lot of women then.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And I met Carrie Snow.
Guest:I met Roseanne.
Guest:She came out in 85.
Guest:Karen Haber, Louise Duart.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:The Impressionist.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:I remember her.
Marc:She was doing it.
Marc:And it was like Joey Kamen.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And Steve Odenkirk.
Guest:Steve Odenkirk, whom I'm still friends with him.
Guest:Yup.
Marc:And Damon Wayans and Belzer.
Guest:We met Valerie Pappas.
Guest:Valerie Pappas.
Guest:Valerie Pappas and I used to stand in the back and watch Damon on stage and laugh and laugh.
Guest:And then he would do something horrible and we'd look at each other and we'd go, oh, Damon.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Oh, Damon.
Marc:That's what he should have called his special.
Guest:Oh, Damon.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, and, oh, Valerie Pappas, I couldn't have forgot about her.
Guest:She's great.
Marc:But, like, you're one of these people that I would see almost every night during my drugged-out weird doorman days.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then, like, I don't know what happens to anybody.
Marc:So you were just a touring act?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Once you came out here, you work out at the store, and then you would have... I toured a lot.
Guest:I toured a lot, and then I got to the point where it was... Clubs?
Guest:Clubs, yes.
Guest:And then I did several TV pilots that never got picked up.
Marc:What, you had deals?
Yeah.
Guest:I never had a deal.
Marc:But you wrote them for yourself?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I was cast.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I was cast.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:And never got picked up, though.
Marc:But did some episodic stuff work?
Guest:Yeah, did some episodic stuff.
Guest:Did a lot of late night stuff.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, did a lot of Tonight Shows.
Marc:Well, you did with Johnny, right?
Guest:Did with Johnny.
Guest:Did with Jay.
Guest:How many did you do with Johnny?
Guest:Four or five.
Guest:I can't remember.
Guest:And Jay was four or five.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:And I was on the last two anniversary shows, which was, like, an incredible honor.
Marc:For which one?
Marc:For The Tonight Show?
Guest:Tonight Show, yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:So what was your experience around that?
Marc:Like, when you got here...
Marc:Because I didn't know what the hell I was doing.
Marc:But you had a career in mind because you have that kind of brain.
Marc:So you had in mind what you wanted other than to just be a comedian?
Guest:Well, I knew I wanted to do The Tonight Show.
Guest:I mean, almost every comic wanted to do The Tonight Show.
Guest:And then I had a manager and I did want to do acting.
Guest:I enjoyed it and I thought I was good at it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And...
Guest:And I did have some success.
Guest:I mean, enough success, but not, I mean, I never like hit it big, you know, obviously.
Marc:Yeah, me neither.
Marc:The weirdest thing about, it's just, you just get enough to keep you delusional enough to keep going.
Guest:Subsisting.
Guest:I'm subsisting.
Guest:But I never give up hope.
Guest:I never give up hope because it's what I love to do.
Marc:But in terms of touring, when you did The Tonight Show at that time, were you able to draw and do all right out there?
Guest:I did okay, but I have to say that it was a time when the comedy clubs were filling themselves.
Guest:And I would get a plug, and yes, it helped fill the room.
Guest:But I was never enough of a road warrior to really build.
Guest:a road following.
Marc:Was your experience out there okay?
Guest:It was okay.
Guest:I mean, some clubs I loved.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Many clubs I hated.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I never want to have to work a room again where I see somebody walk up to the window in the middle of the afternoon wearing a baseball cap that's sitting, like a trucker's cap, sitting high on his head and saying...
Guest:Who's the comic tonight?
Guest:You know, I just don't want to have to work that again.
Guest:I mean, I really want to work to an audience who wants to see me.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Is that so much to ask, Mark?
Marc:No, that's all I ever wanted.
Marc:And it has happened a miracle.
Marc:Some sort of strange cosmic timing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know, worked out.
Marc:And I was at the end of it.
Marc:I was like.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I was looking down the barrel at either a B-room headliner for life or a gun.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, I understand.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I understand.
Guest:It was frustrating out there.
Guest:I loved Catch a Rising Star in Cambridge.
Guest:That was my favorite club.
Marc:Yeah, I lived in Boston.
Marc:I mean, I used to be my home club, kind of.
Marc:Such a great club.
Marc:Yeah, it was the old Jonathan Swift's.
Marc:It was down in the basement.
Marc:Oh, right.
Guest:JFK.
Marc:After I hit the wall here.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:You know, I went and got, I went to rehab and then I moved back to Boston where I went to college and started doing comedy again.
Marc:And at that time, what was that?
Marc:The first time I got sober, it was like 87 or something, 88.
Marc:It was me and Dave Cross and Janine Garofalo.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Marc:There was a whole crew of like people my age who were a Kightlinger.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:That was, that was who was hanging out down there.
Guest:Oh, that was fun.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Those were fun days, very creative days.
Marc:And you would come in, people like you would come in and headline and we'd come watch.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But like Mondays, I think it was like Monday and Tuesdays were the open mics.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Or the, for us, for local, you know, people working out.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And one week I worked there with Jeff Stilson and that was so fun.
Marc:I just talked about him with Ronnie Chang.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:And I want to get Stilson on here.
Guest:You can.
Guest:No reason why you can't.
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:I don't know why we haven't.
Marc:He must have been in Australia or something.
Marc:No.
Marc:I mean, I've been doing this a long time.
Guest:He's been working a lot.
Guest:He's been working with Louis Black.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:Wonder if you're mad at me or something.
Marc:Maybe it just didn't come up.
Guest:Well.
Marc:You'll find out.
Guest:Everyone's mad at you, Mark.
Marc:Again?
Guest:No, I'm kidding.
Guest:That's what you think, I'm sure.
Marc:I thought I worked it all out.
Marc:So, but you just kind of, and you write, you're on staffs?
Guest:I was writing on Stefan Roseanne for a year.
Marc:How was that?
Guest:It was crazy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It was really crazy.
Guest:I mean, we laughed until we cried and we cried until we left.
Marc:Who else was in that room?
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Carrie Snow.
Guest:Lois Bromfield was another one.
Guest:That's who I was talking about.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Lois Bromfield.
Guest:Alan Steven.
Marc:What season was it?
Guest:This was the penultimate season.
Guest:Season eight, I think.
Marc:So it was really crazy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we were in joke.
Guest:I mean, it was a staff of 27.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:which whittled down to 22, and we were in a joke room, and it was like a machine.
Guest:That place was a machine.
Guest:I mean, no other show had a staff that huge.
Guest:And then I worked on Caroline in the City, and I was a recurring character while I was writing on staff.
Marc:That went on for a while, didn't it?
Guest:Four years, but I only remained there for two-thirds of a season because I just didn't want to be behind the scenes.
Guest:I really wanted to be in front of the camera.
Guest:Again, you've got to get out.
Guest:I've got to get out.
Guest:I knew you were going to say it as soon as I started telling this story.
Guest:Uh-oh, he's got me.
Marc:I got to get out of here.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And do you work with Caroline Ray?
Guest:I worked on the Caroline Ray show in New York.
Guest:I was writing on that show.
Marc:She's coming around the store again.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But she never came before, and I told her to come.
Marc:And she was nervous about it.
Marc:I'm like, don't be.
Marc:She's like, is it like the Comedy Cellar?
Marc:I'm like, nothing like the Comedy Cellar.
Marc:No one's going to, you know, just come and just do sets.
Marc:The store is very good right now.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:I mean, I can't even get spots there.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, put in availability.
Guest:I mean, I was able to run my Tonight Show set.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know.
Marc:It's an odd thing.
Marc:That was my home club.
Marc:I know.
Marc:But it's very different than it ever was right now.
Marc:And it's very kind of balanced, and there's no egos running the place.
Marc:Oh, that's good.
Marc:Peter's running it from Portland.
Marc:He's so nice.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And but but just in terms of performance, that place was very vulnerable to any sort of swinging dick to just take over the place.
Marc:And then you got to deal with chaos.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But that's not happening.
Guest:That's great.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:That's great.
Guest:And it's got, you know, all those rooms that you can work.
Guest:It's great.
Guest:It's great.
Marc:But, like, I thought it was great that you were on The Tonight Show because you do represent a generation.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And what's odd about it is that, like, I started to realize this because Driesen's back.
Marc:He's older than you, but he's back.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Argus never left.
Marc:No one's even sure if he's not a ghost.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But, I mean, there's an audience.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's like, it's a big audience that doesn't really have that much representation in stand-up anymore.
Marc:It's weird.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:When you think about it, I mean, you know, Jerry does Jerry, but Jerry's just this massive star that can go out and make money, whatever.
Marc:But, like, just in terms of working stand-ups, I don't know who's out there doing it.
Marc:I've kind of...
Marc:I think it's great.
Guest:I mean, most of us have moved on to other venues in our careers.
Guest:I guess that's what it is.
Guest:I mean, I'm just like the spinning plate person on The Ed Sullivan Show.
Guest:I mean, I'm doing my solo show.
Guest:I want to do stand-up.
Guest:I want to act.
Marc:But you've never stopped.
Guest:No, I've never stopped.
Guest:I mean, certainly I've slowed down at times, and I don't work at the pace that I used to in the 80s and the early 90s.
Marc:Do you have a family?
Marc:You raised a family?
Guest:I have a daughter.
Guest:She's 19.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:How's that?
Guest:She's good.
Guest:She's good.
Guest:She's a tough one.
Guest:She's a tough one.
Guest:She's from China, and she's real independent.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She's doing well.
Marc:That must have all its own challenges.
Yeah.
Marc:To have adopted – my brother's got three adopted kids.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's great.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's fantastic.
Guest:Yeah, it does have its own challenges and especially a non-domestic adoption with someone who's clearly not –
Guest:from us right right you know right and she oh my god she she did said the funniest thing my soon-to-be ex-husband tom went to get a haircut yeah uh at fantastic sam's and he came back and it was a really short haircut yeah yeah and my daughter said you look like a cop who would stop a black person for no reason
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:Very specific.
Guest:She's very witty.
Guest:Very witty.
Marc:So, I mean, like, how did, like, not to be rude or judgmental, but, like, how do you get The Tonight Show at this point?
Guest:Here's how I got it.
Guest:It's not rude and judgmental because, yes, you're correct.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I did the Hermosa Comedy and Magic Club in July of last year.
Guest:And they videotaped all the sets.
Guest:And I was nervous because I hadn't been in front of a live audience in a while because of COVID.
Guest:And I had a really great set.
Guest:And I sent the set to my manager, Glenn.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:And he loved it.
Guest:And unbeknownst to me, he sent it to The Tonight Show.
Guest:And Michael liked it and said, I wanted to do the show.
Guest:But it took, you know, six months to get a date.
Yeah.
Marc:But I like doing Jimmy.
Marc:Me too.
Marc:And I like him.
Marc:Yeah, me too.
Marc:Out of all of them, he's the best audience.
Guest:He's a doll.
Guest:And I know him from years ago.
Marc:Oh, you do?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Oh, because all he wants you to do is make him laugh.
Marc:They are so relieved with somebody who can just do the thing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Because it makes their job easier.
Guest:Yes, absolutely.
Marc:And he's just looking at you like, are we going to do it?
Guest:Yeah, I'll get it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I like doing that show.
Marc:But it doesn't have the same impact it used to, but it feels good to do it.
Guest:It does feel good to do it.
Marc:And he was very cute when he's like, this is your 10th one.
Marc:He associated himself with the legacy.
Guest:Yes, well, it's the same franchise.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And did it feel great?
Guest:It felt great.
Guest:It was really, it was really fun.
Guest:I mean, I was, it was, it was a slightly nerve wracking because I hadn't done it in, I hadn't done a late night in seven years.
Marc:I can't imagine doing a five minute set.
Guest:But it was so fun.
Guest:I was, I'm really, I really enjoy doing this.
Guest:I was really in my element and I remember I'm thinking to myself while I'm doing the set, I'm thinking, okay, it's going okay.
Guest:It's going okay.
Guest:And then I said, I fumfered over some words and I had to repeat a few words and I'm thinking, okay,
Guest:That's okay.
Guest:People do that.
Marc:It's the worst when your brain skids.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Where you just sort of like.
Marc:I don't think anyone noticed that.
Marc:I didn't notice that you.
Guest:No, because people do that.
Guest:Like I thought.
Guest:Right.
Guest:People do that.
Marc:Look at you not being a perfectionist.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Isn't that something?
Marc:See, but therapy's really paid off.
Marc:You're not beating the shit out of yourself a week later.
Guest:I'm not.
Guest:It's great.
Guest:It is great.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I'm really, like, gleaning some happiness from this.
Marc:Good.
Marc:It's fun.
Marc:Well, it's great talking to you.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:This was a blast.
Marc:So fun.
Marc:Good.
Marc:And let me know when, send me the information, and we'll plug the show.
Guest:Oh, great.
Marc:What's the eating disorder show called?
Guest:Does This Show Make Me Look Fat?
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Well, I hope that you get that going good.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:And I really think I can help a lot of people.
Guest:And when I've done it and presented it online for readings and stuff, I've always heard from people who say, thank you so much for talking about this and I'm struggling with this.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, people, no matter how much the culture seems to have awareness of it, it's still a thing that...
Marc:You know, it's hard.
Guest:Well, it's a big problem, I have to say, because our society is complicit with it.
Guest:It really does support having an eating disorder.
Marc:Yeah, that and youth culture.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So, like, anorexic seniors have it real tough.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Nobody cares.
Guest:Tough demographic.
Guest:It is.
Guest:It really is.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Good talking to you.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Great to talk to you.
Marc:That was fun.
Marc:That was fun talking to Kathy Ladman.
Marc:Again, she'll be at the Newberry Theater in South Carolina and the Pico Theater in Los Angeles next month.
Marc:Go to kathyladman.com for dates and ticket info and hang out for a minute, will you?
Marc:For Full Marin subscribers, we've got another Ask Mark Anything posted with my answers to your questions.
Marc:If you were at the Comedy Store and collapsed and looked up just before you popped your mortal coil, which comedian would you be happy was the last person you saw?
Marc:And which one would you not like to see before you were carried away by baby angels?
Marc:Who would I like to see?
Marc:Which comedian would I like to see?
Marc:It's a very sad moment.
Marc:It would be nice to see Maz Jobrani.
Marc:He'd be a nice guy to see at the end.
Marc:He's a very pleasant fella.
Marc:To listen to that and all our bonus content, plus every episode of WTF ad-free, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com.
Marc:Click on WTF Plus and sign up for the full Marin.
Marc:Next week, big week.
Marc:Brooke Shields on Monday and Kelly Reichardt on Thursday.
Marc:These were two amazing women who I was very excited to talk to.
Marc:Totally excited.
Marc:So that'll come through.
Marc:Here's some muddy guitar work.
Thank you.
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey, LaFonda, cat angels everywhere.
Marc:I think I fucked up my mic stand.