Episode 1415 - Ronny Chieng

Episode 1415 • Released March 6, 2023 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what the fuckadelics what's happening how are you what's going on i'm trying to bring it in reel it in man ronnie chang is on the show today uh

00:00:24Marc:Do you know him?

00:00:25Marc:I think you probably do.

00:00:27Marc:You might know him from The Daily Show.

00:00:28Marc:You might know him from his Netflix stand-up specials, Speakeasy, and Asian Comedian Destroys America.

00:00:34Marc:And from movies like Crazy Rich Asians, Shang-Chi, and Megan.

00:00:39Marc:He's in the History of the World Part II on Hulu.

00:00:41Marc:A lot going on.

00:00:43Marc:Intense guy.

00:00:44Marc:Didn't know him.

00:00:46Marc:Did not know him before this.

00:00:48Marc:So I watched a couple of his stand-up specials, and then the next day I talked to him.

00:00:51Marc:I met him and I talked to him, and we had an amazing chat.

00:00:56Marc:On Thursday next week, we're going to have Jason Woliner on again to talk about his series, Paul T. Goldman.

00:01:04Marc:There's no way for that talk to be spoiler free.

00:01:06Marc:So if you want to watch Paul T. Goldman before that, it's only six episodes, about three hours and 20 minutes total length.

00:01:14Marc:And it's streaming on Peacock.

00:01:15Marc:You should do that.

00:01:16Marc:It is something.

00:01:18Marc:And it was challenging to me.

00:01:19Marc:So I'm going to talk to Jason about it specifically.

00:01:24Marc:All right?

00:01:24Marc:So watch that.

00:01:25Marc:All right?

00:01:26Marc:Okay.

00:01:27Marc:I was in New Mexico.

00:01:28Marc:And I spent time with the dad, with the old man.

00:01:34Marc:And he's actually...

00:01:36Marc:holding relatively steady in a slightly spaced out state, but he's kind of holding steady.

00:01:44Marc:He still knows who I am when I'm there anyways.

00:01:50Marc:From what I understand, sometimes I talk to him on the phone and after he hangs up, a few minutes go by and he doesn't know who he was talking to.

00:01:57Marc:But I don't think that has anything to do with me.

00:01:59Marc:He still seems to know who he is mostly.

00:02:02Marc:He's not really sure what happened at some points in his life.

00:02:07Marc:I did a little of that with him.

00:02:09Marc:Kind of went over some stuff.

00:02:11Marc:A lot of it not great.

00:02:13Marc:But that's the funny thing.

00:02:14Marc:He mostly, the stuff he doesn't remember are...

00:02:20Marc:Like, he's not sure what happened that drove certain decisions of his.

00:02:25Marc:The catalysts usually have negative events where he either got taken for a ride by some huckster of some kind, which he's want to do, or he got himself in trouble.

00:02:38Marc:So he spent a lot of time going from practice to practice out there in the world.

00:02:43Marc:It's a long story that involves most of the country.

00:02:48Marc:My father left New Mexico in some sort of furious mania and started doing deals with orthopedic practices in small towns that needed a doctor.

00:02:59Marc:So over the course of a decade, he was in Victoria, Texas, Muscatine, Iowa, Warsaw, New York.

00:03:07Marc:Where else?

00:03:09Marc:You know, and usually he'd get run out of town for being an asshole.

00:03:13Marc:But the truth is, he doesn't remember what got him there, what made him make that decision, what made him get in trouble, what made him lose all his money.

00:03:22Marc:He forgets that stuff.

00:03:23Marc:And I guess if you're going to forget some big chunks of your life, those would be the ones to do.

00:03:29Marc:Those would be the ones that you wouldn't miss.

00:03:32Marc:It'd be kind of a relief.

00:03:34Marc:To be done with those.

00:03:35Marc:How did you get so fucked up?

00:03:37Marc:You know, I don't remember.

00:03:38Marc:Why did you go do that terrible thing?

00:03:40Marc:It's not, I don't know.

00:03:41Marc:It's gone.

00:03:42Marc:I don't know.

00:03:42Marc:So that's, it's not a benefit, but I tried to refresh his memory.

00:03:48Marc:That's always a fun thing to do, to sit there with your dad and go like, no, you fucked up.

00:03:53Marc:That's why you had a, that's why you did that.

00:03:57Marc:And I spent many hours with the guy over the weekend just trying to piece together periods of his life with him.

00:04:06Marc:His memory is actually very thorough.

00:04:09Marc:The timelines are vague.

00:04:11Marc:But I don't think that's necessarily dementia.

00:04:14Marc:I think that is a symptom of age.

00:04:16Marc:If you didn't take notes, shit gets jumbled and events float untethered in your history of you.

00:04:25Marc:It's just a fact.

00:04:27Marc:I mean, I guess I'm kind of seeing myself now as a new old.

00:04:33Marc:I'm one of the new olds.

00:04:34Marc:I'm one of the now generation of new olds.

00:04:39Marc:And I've been trying sort of, you know, to put my own timeline together.

00:04:45Marc:So I'm almost six decades into this charade, this debacle, this farce.

00:04:53Marc:And I've lived in five different cities, some of them twice.

00:04:56Marc:So it makes it tricky to kind of get a timeline going.

00:05:00Marc:I mean, I remember events.

00:05:02Marc:I remember people.

00:05:03Marc:I remember things I did.

00:05:04Marc:Some of them are hazy.

00:05:07Marc:But I have no real kind of – I don't have any familial –

00:05:11Marc:stability as markers.

00:05:13Marc:I mean, I don't have a consistent life, you know, as a marker of time.

00:05:18Marc:I have no kids.

00:05:19Marc:I had a couple of wives.

00:05:21Marc:And that explains maybe nine years of some consistency, at least around who was primary in my life.

00:05:31Marc:But I was with them for longer than that.

00:05:33Marc:But, you know, I wasn't always the greatest boyfriend in the world.

00:05:38Marc:Other than that,

00:05:39Marc:You know, I have a few cats.

00:05:41Marc:And I have a lot of interactions and engagements of many different kinds with many different people.

00:05:47Marc:Yes, I'm being a little cagey on purpose.

00:05:49Marc:Though, oddly...

00:05:52Marc:When I was with my dad, you know, just out of nowhere, on the couch, after long periods of silence, we're watching TV, kind of.

00:06:02Marc:He's just complaining about, you know, that he can't quite hear the TV that well.

00:06:07Marc:But there's something wrong with your TV.

00:06:08Marc:The lips don't sync up with the voice, with the words.

00:06:13Marc:But he said a couple of things.

00:06:15Marc:I made fun of a stool softening commercial because of the silly tune they used, which I imagine was they're trying to get old people to buy it.

00:06:23Marc:So they're basically using a children's song because they think that'll register with the people that might need a stool softener.

00:06:30Marc:So I made fun of that.

00:06:31Marc:And my father literally said, I think I might need some of that.

00:06:34Marc:And then a few minutes later, out of nowhere, he just says, I guess I was kind of a womanizer.

00:06:39Marc:And I was like, ah, that's where that comes from.

00:06:43Marc:Okie dokie.

00:06:45Marc:But I kind of knew that.

00:06:46Marc:So the deal, though, when you move around a lot and it's just it's hard to get a narrative going.

00:06:56Marc:The other thing that makes it difficult is that, you know, I was a fairly active drunk and addict for a good chunk of time.

00:07:05Marc:I would say in my adult life, I'd say from like 15 to 1999, on and off.

00:07:14Marc:Look, I was functional, obviously, as functional as one needed to be to pursue a life of comedy, to be driven by fury and

00:07:24Marc:and desire to be a comedian, that was always the priority, to do that.

00:07:29Marc:And a lot of stuff fell to the wayside, like responsible adulthood.

00:07:33Marc:So my point is, after talking to my father and seeing how checked out he is around some of this stuff that should have had a profound impact on him, but he was like that before he got lost, before he lost his mind.

00:07:51Marc:And like through the course of my life, I did a lot of emotional damage to myself and to others.

00:07:57Marc:And I have a somewhat vague recollection as to the catalysts of some of the more painful changes I went through.

00:08:05Marc:But just like my old man, some of them are a little hazy.

00:08:09Marc:But I believe I can still excavate the timeline if I sit down and put it together.

00:08:16Marc:Is it necessary?

00:08:16Marc:I wouldn't say that this is being nostalgic.

00:08:19Marc:I just want answers.

00:08:21Marc:Because as I've mentioned before, I find that more people remember me as an asshole than I remember.

00:08:30Marc:And somehow I've got to be like, what was going on then?

00:08:35Marc:And the reason I'm reflecting now is because I was home and I spent time with a couple of my oldest friends, some more of the new olds.

00:08:42Marc:We are the new olds.

00:08:44Marc:And we're all around 60.

00:08:45Marc:And one of them actually puts a time limit on how much we can talk about physical health, blood numbers, poop, exercise, aches and pains and jerking off.

00:08:54Marc:There's a limit.

00:08:56Marc:He says, we got 10 minutes on that.

00:08:58Marc:That's my friend Dave.

00:09:00Marc:So we were able to isolate Dave and I that I was probably the biggest asshole when I was in my early to mid 20s.

00:09:08Marc:And because I would come to town occasionally, you know, like maybe just after college or towards the end of college.

00:09:14Marc:And I'd come home for periods of time.

00:09:17Marc:But.

00:09:18Marc:You know, I don't think he really knew me that well as I became more evolved as an asshole in relationships as I got older.

00:09:27Marc:So I'm going to have to talk to some other sources for that.

00:09:30Marc:Look.

00:09:32Marc:I know I'm making myself out to be a horror show, but honestly, I've worked through most of this stuff, a lot of it.

00:09:38Marc:Sometimes with people I've hurt.

00:09:41Marc:A lot of it is sort of toothless now within me, other than some shame residue occasionally.

00:09:48Marc:We have all broken hearts and have broken hearts.

00:09:52Marc:Right?

00:09:54Marc:So I guess seeing my father this time trying to put it together for himself, but ultimately landing on, I just don't care anymore.

00:10:03Marc:That's where he gets.

00:10:05Marc:We work on it for a little while.

00:10:06Marc:I just don't care anymore.

00:10:07Marc:And I think that's profound because I imagine eventually it'll be, I just, I don't know.

00:10:12Marc:I just don't know anymore.

00:10:14Marc:I guess that'll, I guess that'll happen soon.

00:10:17Marc:I guess it'll all go.

00:10:19Marc:So again, I want to make clear I'm not being nostalgic.

00:10:23Marc:I'm not being melancholy.

00:10:24Marc:I'm just assessing.

00:10:26Marc:I'm on a psychological dig into my memory for understanding what

00:10:33Marc:the impact of who I was on myself and others, and hopefully finding some good stuff as well in the soul dumpster.

00:10:44Marc:So look, Ronnie Chang is here.

00:10:46Marc:The History of the World Part II is now streaming on Hulu, and Megan is streaming on Peacock.

00:10:52Marc:And this is an intense guy and a good comedian.

00:10:56Marc:This is me and Ronnie Chang talking.

00:10:58¶¶

00:11:16Marc:I don't spend much time in New York, but when I go back, you know, I usually go out to eat, and I go to museums, and I do whatever I'm there to do.

00:11:25Marc:Normal human stuff, yeah.

00:11:26Marc:Right.

00:11:27Marc:Instead of... Right, but I don't feel the urge to, like, you know, like, I got to get over there because...

00:11:32Marc:I don't know, like it's such a fucking, you know, dick swinging fest.

00:11:36Guest:Yes, yes.

00:11:36Guest:Well, you know what's weird?

00:11:37Guest:You know what's weird is that I'm only starting to get started in L.A.

00:11:40Guest:because I've been seven years in America.

00:11:42Guest:I never really lived here or came here that much.

00:11:44Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:11:44Guest:I'm here for five months for work.

00:11:46Guest:And now I feel the same way you feel in New York in the sense of like, should I be, you know, I need stage time, but I don't know if I can be going to the improv.

00:11:54Marc:Don't go to the improv.

00:11:55Marc:Come to the store.

00:11:56Guest:Oh, no, everywhere.

00:11:56Guest:I'm past at the store.

00:11:57Guest:I went through the audition.

00:12:01Guest:I did.

00:12:01Guest:Yeah.

00:12:02Guest:So I can do it.

00:12:02Guest:It's just more.

00:12:03Guest:I feel like it's what you feel in New York is what I'm feeling here maybe a little bit.

00:12:08Marc:Yeah.

00:12:08Marc:I mean, I know New York.

00:12:10Marc:I mean, Jesus, I was there through the worst of it.

00:12:12Marc:But I used to run around.

00:12:13Guest:I tell you what, man.

00:12:14Guest:Every time I speak to my comics seniors, when I'm lucky enough to speak to Leary or you or whomever, I always ask them about that scene.

00:12:24Guest:Because they always tell me, catch.

00:12:26Guest:They tell me, stand up, New York.

00:12:28Guest:They tell me Comic Strip was a place, you know.

00:12:30Marc:Yeah, I mean, when I started, you'd run around, you'd do, you know, stand-up New York, which always sucked.

00:12:37Marc:Catch was hard to get into, and that guy never passed me.

00:12:41Marc:And I resented him forever, but he eventually gave me Carnegie Hall because he works with the festival.

00:12:47Marc:Caroline's.

00:12:48Marc:Yeah, Louis Veranda.

00:12:49Guest:Oh, yeah, Louis has always been super cool to me, yeah.

00:12:51Marc:Yeah, yeah, but he used to be the bartender at Catch.

00:12:53Marc:No wonder.

00:12:54Marc:And he used to be the guy that would make you sit at the bar and go, yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll get you on, you know, just to, you know, Jerry stopped by, so you'd wait there all night.

00:13:01Marc:Right, right.

00:13:02Marc:And then you'd watch the whole audience leave.

00:13:04Marc:Right, right.

00:13:04Marc:And then he'd put you on for seven people.

00:13:06Marc:Right, right, right.

00:13:07Marc:I did that twice, and I'm like, fuck that guy.

00:13:08Marc:Right, right.

00:13:09Guest:He was always super cool to me.

00:13:12Marc:Well, no, no, he's turned around.

00:13:14Guest:Oh, yeah, no.

00:13:15Guest:And also, what I really appreciate about the New York comedy scene was that I kind of... I was... I went... In 2015, I got hired at The Daily Show, but I wasn't established in America.

00:13:27Guest:So I had to rebuild my bona fides, so to speak.

00:13:30Guest:Sure.

00:13:30Guest:And I kind of approached it with like...

00:13:32Guest:No entitlement.

00:13:35Guest:Please just give me five minutes.

00:13:36Guest:I'll prove myself with this five minutes.

00:13:39Guest:And people were always... Everyone I encountered was... No one was a dick.

00:13:43Guest:Maybe they didn't give me five minutes right away, but they would audition me, and then after that, they would book me.

00:13:48Guest:So me and New... I got a lot of love for everyone in the New York comedy scene.

00:13:51Guest:Even the characters who are a little bit like, hey, prove yourself.

00:13:55Guest:Who the fuck are you?

00:13:56Guest:Even those guys, I appreciated them because...

00:13:59Guest:It was like I would hear stories from people like you about them.

00:14:02Guest:You mean Patrice?

00:14:03Guest:No, no, he wasn't around when I joined.

00:14:05Guest:He was already gone?

00:14:06Guest:He was gone.

00:14:07Guest:He's been dead that long?

00:14:09Guest:Yeah, he was gone when I got there.

00:14:10Guest:No shit.

00:14:11Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:14:11Guest:Huh.

00:14:12Marc:No, I know.

00:14:13Marc:Yeah, there's that thing.

00:14:15Marc:I just mean the bookers more.

00:14:16Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:14:16Guest:And even the comics.

00:14:17Guest:To be honest, the comics, everyone was always super cool to me.

00:14:20Guest:I think, I don't know.

00:14:21Guest:I just think in America, surprisingly, believe it or not, even in New York City, there's

00:14:27Guest:There's a feeling of you get what you give, you know.

00:14:30Marc:Well, I think also, you know, you get there and if you're ready to go, you're ready to go.

00:14:33Marc:And then you learn how to fight.

00:14:34Marc:You know, I mean, there's no like when the one thing about New York is that they're not going to indulge much dicking around, especially the main clubs.

00:14:42Marc:You know, I mean, the alt scene, which I don't even know if it exists anymore, was different.

00:14:46Marc:It was a little more indulgent.

00:14:47Marc:But if you're going to do those clubs, I mean, you got hit on all cylinders all the time.

00:14:51Guest:Yes.

00:14:51Marc:And you learn how to do that.

00:14:52Guest:Yes, you have to be good for sure.

00:14:54Guest:That's the base level.

00:14:55Guest:But I guess what I'm describing is more... They were open to you.

00:14:58Guest:Yeah, I think there was more open and I was very grateful to be there.

00:15:05Guest:It took me 20 years to get to America.

00:15:08Marc:But it's funny, I watch you.

00:15:09Marc:I wasn't really familiar.

00:15:12Marc:To me, you were on my radar because I missed you in New York, and I knew that you were out there, but I didn't watch this stuff until this week, the two specials.

00:15:20Marc:Thank you for watching it.

00:15:21Guest:Of course.

00:15:22Marc:But it's so funny when I'm working off a promo.

00:15:27Marc:And I'm like, who the fuck's this guy?

00:15:31Marc:But having not known your history, and then when I watch you, I'm like, oh, well, this guy's like of my ilk.

00:15:38Marc:Do you know what I mean?

00:15:39Marc:It wasn't like you didn't take the easy path.

00:15:43Marc:in terms of what you choose to talk about as a stand-up.

00:15:47Marc:Wow, that's high praise.

00:15:48Marc:I appreciate that.

00:15:48Marc:But it's true.

00:15:49Marc:I know there are guys you watch.

00:15:52Marc:There's a couple of guys I watch, and I know where people like me or have the same interests as me stand-up-wise come from because there's not that many of us.

00:16:01Marc:You know, if you track it back to whoever you like, whether it's Hicks or Patrice or Stuart Lee or Stanhope or whatever, there are guys that do a certain thing.

00:16:12Marc:But that's not most of them.

00:16:14Marc:Yes, yes.

00:16:15Guest:Right?

00:16:15Guest:Well, that's high praise if you're coming from you.

00:16:18Guest:I know you don't suffer fools.

00:16:20Marc:No, but we all have to suffer fools.

00:16:23Marc:We're stand-ups.

00:16:25Marc:We spend most of our careers suffering fools.

00:16:28Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:16:28Marc:Our peers.

00:16:29Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:16:31Guest:I guess so.

00:16:31Guest:I guess we – some of us suffer more fools than others, I guess I should say.

00:16:36Marc:Well, you make room, you know, because it's interesting, you know, in the – I think in the second special where, you know, you set your sights on Rowan Atkinson.

00:16:44Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:16:45Marc:But, you know, I get it.

00:16:46Marc:You know, but, you know, as far as fools go, he's like the king of fools.

00:16:50Marc:But, you know, as you get older in stand-up, you're like, well, there is room for that.

00:16:54Marc:Right, right.

00:16:54Marc:But, you know, but it's not without reproach.

00:16:57Marc:Sure, sure, sure.

00:16:58Marc:You know.

00:16:58Guest:Yeah, and even my, you know, I don't want to get into the details of the special, you know, because, you know, like, explaining jokes is the death of comedy.

00:17:06Marc:No, but you're autobiographical enough where you can tell a story without explaining a joke.

00:17:11Guest:Sure.

00:17:11Guest:And for me, me talking about Mr. Bean is, you know...

00:17:14Guest:I actually have tons of respect for any comic.

00:17:18Guest:So, me talking about Mr. Bean is actually, for me, that's more a story of British colonialism in Singapore.

00:17:24Guest:That's really what I'm talking about.

00:17:25Guest:Yeah, right.

00:17:25Marc:And that was a long, you know, that was a 15-minute setup.

00:17:30Guest:I know.

00:17:31Marc:So, again, not... It's a risky bit of business, but the one thing I can tell by who you are stylistically is that, you know, you're willing to take that risk because, you know, what's the worst that can happen?

00:17:41Marc:Is that it tanks?

00:17:42Guest:Yeah.

00:17:43Guest:What's going to happen is people who don't appreciate stamp comedy don't like it because it's not a TikTok bit.

00:17:49Guest:It's not a bit for TikTok.

00:17:51Marc:Not only is it not a TikTok bit, but it's not a traditional joke.

00:17:54Marc:So you're executing an idea that unfolds.

00:17:59Marc:And there's many examples.

00:18:00Marc:It's interesting because I was watching this because I just shot a special and I saw where you made decisions and I wonder with my own stuff, not that we're the same, but you set up

00:18:12Marc:uh, your closer as a callback at the beginning.

00:18:15Marc:And I noticed that, but I really wonder, you know, just a regular person watching if they caught that.

00:18:22Guest:Oh, you mean the second special?

00:18:23Guest:Yeah.

00:18:24Guest:Yeah.

00:18:24Guest:You know what I mean?

00:18:25Guest:Yes.

00:18:25Guest:No, you're very, I mean, thank you again, mutual respect here from a, from a seasoned pro who saw what I was trying to do.

00:18:32Guest:And I mean, my philosophy was, I don't know if people, everyone got it.

00:18:35Guest:Yeah.

00:18:35Guest:It doesn't matter.

00:18:37Guest:It doesn't matter.

00:18:37Guest:You knew.

00:18:38Guest:It's continuity.

00:18:38Marc:And also gives, when you work with callbacks, which I didn't do till later, you know, because when I decided to start organizing as opposed to just talking, you know, like it's satisfying, right?

00:18:51Guest:Because you know where you're going.

00:18:52Guest:I tell you what, it's satisfying sitting here with you and you telling me you caught it.

00:18:55Guest:It means that I did something right.

00:18:56Marc:Well, there was another one, too.

00:18:58Marc:Because structurally, I did the same thing where...

00:19:02Marc:Where the second I knew that these callbacks were there, but but they weren't like, you know, exact.

00:19:08Marc:Like if you call back a joke and repeat the punchline later, they're like, oh, shit.

00:19:13Marc:Yes.

00:19:14Marc:Yes.

00:19:14Marc:But even when, you know, you're packing and the delivery guy comes and you're like, you know, like no time.

00:19:20Marc:You're like it was fundamentally going against the whole idea of being an American.

00:19:24Marc:So I saw that, too.

00:19:25Guest:Exactly.

00:19:26Guest:Thank you.

00:19:27Guest:No, that's very kind of you.

00:19:29Guest:I think I got that from... I started doing comedy in Australia, which, by the way, is where I first saw you was when you came to the Melbourne Comedy Festival.

00:19:36Guest:Oh, my God.

00:19:37Guest:You don't remember that.

00:19:38Guest:I do.

00:19:39Marc:I was doing some painful...

00:19:41Guest:Some painful hour?

00:19:43Guest:No, it wasn't painful.

00:19:45Guest:You were very well respected by the comics at that time, and you came, and you came to the Melbourne International Comedy Festival.

00:19:52Guest:I should give them a proper plug because that's where I got my start.

00:19:55Guest:And don't take it the wrong way, but you were also kind of a comics comic.

00:20:01Guest:So when you came, all the comics were like, oh, my man, go see him.

00:20:04Guest:And that festival format...

00:20:07Guest:For as much as I hate that festival format idea of shows where you have to have a point and you kind of shoehorn a character development.

00:20:16Marc:Yeah, no, it's the worst.

00:20:18Marc:Because they don't have to be joke efficient.

00:20:20Guest:Right.

00:20:20Guest:And it's annoying.

00:20:21Guest:It can get indulgent and whimsical at worst, you know.

00:20:23Guest:Whimsical is the worst.

00:20:24Guest:Sure, yeah.

00:20:25Guest:Which is why, yeah.

00:20:27Marc:I know I saw that special.

00:20:28Guest:Yeah, but one thing they did...

00:20:31Guest:Teach me is there can be payoff with longer stories and there can be callbacks, how to do a callback.

00:20:40Guest:And, you know, as hacky as the idea is that if you can set up a callback that you call back at the end, that kind of is what contributes to making a show feel like a show.

00:20:51Guest:Exactly.

00:20:51Guest:Right.

00:20:52Marc:Like, yeah, because I...

00:20:54Marc:As a comic, I was real loose for a long time, but you realize—I don't know if it's hacky, but it's a trick.

00:21:01Guest:Yeah, you know, I say hacky to be kind of—not to put stand-up on a pedestal, but really, is it as hacky as saying that stories have three-act structures and that Joseph Campbell—

00:21:13Guest:The hero's journey, is that hacking?

00:21:15Guest:You know what I mean?

00:21:16Guest:No, I get it.

00:21:17Marc:But the funny thing is about a callback, you're going to make it what you're going to make it.

00:21:20Marc:The subject matter, it can be whatever you want.

00:21:24Marc:But the bottom line is, if you do them in an obvious enough way, the audience is always going to think you're a fucking genius.

00:21:32Guest:Yes, well, and then as you put it just now, as you're alluding to, there are callbacks and then there's hacky callbacks.

00:21:39Guest:Of course.

00:21:40Guest:Yeah, so even that, there's ways to, you know.

00:21:43Guest:Yeah, you got to be careful it's not a hook.

00:21:44Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:21:45Guest:Yeah, like a catchphrase.

00:21:47Guest:Exactly.

00:21:47Guest:Right?

00:21:47Guest:So, yeah, so stuff like that.

00:21:49Guest:I mean, the second special, I think I unintentionally increased the level of difficulty for myself in a way which I probably will never do again.

00:21:59Marc:Really?

00:22:00Guest:Yeah.

00:22:00Marc:Because you didn't know if it was going to land?

00:22:05Guest:I'm not even talking about the callback.

00:22:06Guest:The material was the least of my worries.

00:22:08Guest:It's the presentation of that special, which really worried me a lot.

00:22:12Guest:The lounge thing?

00:22:14Guest:Yeah, so every comic kind of wants to capture that small comedy club vibe.

00:22:18Guest:Very few, I think, actually manage to do that on camera.

00:22:22Guest:It's a thing which is actually very hard to... Because if you get it wrong, it just looks cheap and small.

00:22:29Marc:Yeah, I did Thinkie Payne.

00:22:31Marc:I did downstairs, you know, around the corner from the cellar.

00:22:35Marc:And it was like 200 people.

00:22:36Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:22:37Marc:And the weird thing is, is that, like, you know, you were smart in that everybody was kind of in the dark.

00:22:41Marc:You know, if you get that first row in the light.

00:22:43Marc:Wow.

00:22:44Guest:No, you brought up a good point.

00:22:45Guest:That's 100% it.

00:22:47Guest:But then, if you notice, because I shot it in the round.

00:22:49Guest:Yeah.

00:22:49Guest:So I got people behind me.

00:22:50Guest:Yeah.

00:22:50Guest:So you can see them.

00:22:51Marc:Yeah, but barely.

00:22:52Marc:Like, literally, you could see, like, the whole front row.

00:22:55Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:22:56Marc:You know, many of the times, they're not laughing.

00:22:58Guest:Yeah.

00:22:58Guest:Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:22:59Guest:Because, you know, it's cameras on them, and then there's, it's in the round, you know, performing the round is difficult.

00:23:07Guest:That was like 80 people, you know, less than 80.

00:23:11Guest:Really?

00:23:11Guest:Yeah, so it became, you know, the level of, I just, I stacked the cards against myself in that second special a little bit, maybe in a way which I'll probably never do again.

00:23:20Marc:And you shot that first one over here?

00:23:22Guest:Yeah, in Glendale.

00:23:23Guest:So I got a lot of love for Glendale.

00:23:24Marc:I know that theater.

00:23:24Marc:I've never been in there, but it's nice.

00:23:26Marc:It's beautiful.

00:23:27Guest:How'd you get set up with that place?

00:23:29Guest:What's it called?

00:23:29Guest:The Alex?

00:23:30Guest:Alex Theater.

00:23:31Guest:And it was beautiful.

00:23:32Guest:And we were looking for a place to film it quite last minute in the relative world of things.

00:23:37Guest:In the sense, I think it was two months, which is quite last minute.

00:23:40Guest:Yeah.

00:23:41Guest:Looking for a nice theater.

00:23:42Guest:I wanted to shoot in LA.

00:23:43Guest:That was my intent because my visual theme for the first special was...

00:23:48Guest:American show business classic American show business so I wanted to do it in LA the drape red curtain right and the fact that it was in Glendale for me was like oh yeah that's funny because it's not quite LA it's like you couldn't quite make it to LA so we played off that but really that was just a function of what was available to us so it was Alex Theatre and they needed the business the Alex Theatre

00:24:07Guest:I mean, I can't speak to that, but they were very welcoming to me.

00:24:12Guest:That's nice.

00:24:13Guest:We shot it, and I asked Joe Coy, because I was researching the theater beforehand, and Joe Coy shot in that theater, actually.

00:24:20Guest:He did.

00:24:21Guest:A special.

00:24:21Guest:And so I asked him, hey, do you have any tips for this special?

00:24:24Guest:And he said, mic up the second balcony.

00:24:27Guest:Mic up the second floor.

00:24:29Guest:Mic it up, because if you don't mic it up,

00:24:31Guest:You won't hear the laughter, and you're going to think you're bombing.

00:24:34Guest:Oh.

00:24:34Guest:And so he did two shows there, and first show he thought he bombed, and then he said he mic'd up the second show so he could hear it.

00:24:39Guest:On the monitors?

00:24:40Guest:Yeah, on the monitors.

00:24:41Guest:And what great advice.

00:24:43Guest:Yeah?

00:24:43Guest:What great specific advice.

00:24:46Guest:Real comics advice.

00:24:47Marc:And it worked.

00:24:48Guest:I think it made a difference.

00:24:49Guest:I'll never know because I never did it without mic'd up, but...

00:24:51Guest:But, you know, stuff like that.

00:24:52Guest:I'm like, oh, yeah, that's great.

00:24:53Guest:And also speaks to that kind of comic, you know, pure respect, right?

00:24:58Guest:Yeah.

00:24:59Guest:That he will come in.

00:25:00Guest:Yeah.

00:25:00Guest:He's so free.

00:25:01Guest:You know, Joe Koi, so free of his information.

00:25:02Guest:Sweet guy.

00:25:03Guest:Yeah.

00:25:03Marc:And it's practical information.

00:25:04Marc:Yeah, very practical.

00:25:05Marc:You know what I mean?

00:25:06Marc:It's a business thing.

00:25:07Guest:Yeah, and generous.

00:25:08Guest:Yes.

00:25:08Guest:Positive.

00:25:09Guest:And anyway, we filmed there.

00:25:10Guest:And it got on Netflix.

00:25:14Guest:And I think it got kind of, if I do this myself, yeah, people kind of got behind it a bit.

00:25:19Marc:Yeah.

00:25:19Guest:Yeah.

00:25:19Marc:Yeah, no, I thought it was great.

00:25:22Marc:And it was a unique approach because it's interesting, you know, in, I don't know, in your life, but I know in your presentation that, you know, you're taking sort of a satirical but, you know, cutting line on America, but there's an honesty to the fact that you just want to, you know, be rich.

00:25:42Yeah.

00:25:43Guest:Well, I think the honesty is in, if, if I'm, I'm here to, because I love performing standup comedy and this is the place for it.

00:25:55Guest:This is where it was invented.

00:25:56Marc:But the funny thing is, it's like you do like this idea that, you know, you know, I just, you know, I tell, I tell jokes for money.

00:26:01Marc:Is that like, but that's not, you're not really that guy.

00:26:05Marc:I mean, you are making a living doing stand-up, but it does not strike me that that was your primary intention, was to tell jokes, to make money.

00:26:14Guest:Oh, I hope so.

00:26:15Guest:Yeah, my primary intention is self-expression.

00:26:17Guest:Yes, and to do stand-up.

00:26:18Guest:Yeah, so I think the satirical point, thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt, is that I find it pretty...

00:26:25Guest:Is irony the right word?

00:26:27Guest:That all these people working really hard at life.

00:26:29Guest:Yeah.

00:26:30Guest:Rightfully so.

00:26:30Guest:But we just, you know, go on stage and we just, we yell at people.

00:26:34Guest:We complain about things.

00:26:35Guest:It's a hustle.

00:26:36Guest:We insult large groups of people.

00:26:38Guest:Yeah.

00:26:39Guest:And then suddenly we get money for it.

00:26:41Guest:I think it's pretty funny.

00:26:42Guest:It's great.

00:26:42Guest:I think it's pretty funny.

00:26:43Guest:Yeah.

00:26:43Guest:You manage to hack the system.

00:26:45Marc:Sure.

00:26:45Marc:You know?

00:26:46Marc:But I'm curious though, because you don't take, you know, you don't take a...

00:26:50Marc:Your cultural identification is what it is, and certainly in that first special, it was prominent and it was enlightening to me.

00:26:59Marc:But what are you finding is your audience?

00:27:01Marc:I mean, you're not Joe Coy.

00:27:05Marc:You're not doing an international presentation, are you?

00:27:09Guest:What is it like?

00:27:10Guest:I'm trying not to.

00:27:12Guest:Not that I don't want to be Joe Coy.

00:27:13Guest:I'm trying not to do a...

00:27:15Guest:I don't want to be just the foreigner in America making fun of America.

00:27:20Guest:Right.

00:27:21Guest:I'm hoping that I can be more than that.

00:27:24Marc:But you do more than that, but I think also you amplify the Asian experience, which is a real thing.

00:27:35Marc:Sure.

00:27:35Marc:And it's a culture that lives within the culture of America.

00:27:38Marc:So I thought that I'd never seen it handled so well from any...

00:27:42Marc:you know, outside or, you know, person who's new here, generationally new here, you know, so honestly integrated.

00:27:51Guest:Oh, thank you.

00:27:51Guest:Again, that's very high praise.

00:27:53Guest:Again, trying to not go for the easy racial jokes, trying not to go for easy immigrant jokes.

00:28:00Guest:I think...

00:28:01Guest:Ultimately, it is part of my experience, so I think it makes its way into my self-expression.

00:28:05Guest:Sure.

00:28:06Guest:But I try not to rely on that.

00:28:08Guest:I think my guiding light was always like, with comedy in general, was like, if it's a joke that I feel someone else could have thought of, I don't want to do it.

00:28:18Marc:Yeah, in the same way.

00:28:20Marc:And then you got to get rid of those jokes.

00:28:21Guest:Yeah.

00:28:22Guest:It's the worst.

00:28:23Guest:And then you want to do jokes that no one else could come up with.

00:28:26Guest:That's what makes you a professional.

00:28:27Marc:Well, the funny thing is, though, when you're when you do the type of humor that you do that, like, you know, if you have one, you think it might be familiar.

00:28:32Marc:There's only like three guys you get a call.

00:28:34Guest:Yeah.

00:28:36Guest:But isn't it weird that in this digital world, we still that's such an analog.

00:28:41Guest:The analog way of doing comedy still works in the sense of like the three guys you just mentioned.

00:28:46Guest:I'll literally be like, hey, man, this joke is funny, but someone has got to have it.

00:28:51Guest:They're like, I haven't heard it.

00:28:52Guest:I haven't heard it.

00:28:53Guest:And then you get three, I haven't heard it.

00:28:55Guest:You're like, all right, I guess we'll go.

00:28:56Marc:And then the special comes out and you see it three other places.

00:28:59Marc:I know I'm watching yours last night and you started talking about, well, you know, COVID's COVID, but you started talking about stupid people.

00:29:08Marc:And I do, in my special, it comes out in a couple of weeks.

00:29:10Marc:There's a whole chunk on stupid people, but you did it.

00:29:13Marc:Like, differently.

00:29:14Marc:But you're saying... We're saying the same thing.

00:29:15Marc:Sure.

00:29:16Marc:But I took a more, you know, kind of fascist approach.

00:29:18Marc:Right.

00:29:20Marc:That this is something more dangerous than just dummies.

00:29:22Marc:Sure.

00:29:22Marc:You know?

00:29:23Marc:But, you know, when I'm watching, I'm like, ah, fuck.

00:29:26Guest:And then... Right, right.

00:29:28Guest:Sometimes I have... I mean, that happens to me too, watching a parallel thought.

00:29:31Guest:Right, exactly.

00:29:32Guest:But I do think that there is something of...

00:29:35Guest:we all express these ideas differently?

00:29:38Marc:I think so, usually.

00:29:40Marc:Unless you're, well, you see something now, which, you know, I've become critical of, and it's going to bite me in the ass in a way that, like, I've got to accept because, you know, I'll stand by it.

00:29:51Marc:But there is this idea of, you know, people, you know, saying controversial things specifically to do it.

00:29:58Marc:So there's this kind of, like, you know, these guys who are, like, the anti-woke guys.

00:30:02Marc:Yeah.

00:30:03Marc:And they're hacks.

00:30:05Marc:Is that in the sense that, like, you know, if that's your presentation, it's like, you know, we can't say what we want to say.

00:30:10Marc:And all they want to say is the same three things.

00:30:12Guest:Yes.

00:30:13Marc:And it's, like, annoying to me.

00:30:14Guest:Yes.

00:30:15Guest:It's super annoying.

00:30:15Marc:And because there's a whole sort of, you know, army of people that are not – they're not essentially comedy fans.

00:30:22Marc:They're followers.

00:30:23Guest:Yes.

00:30:23Guest:They're anti-woke whatever followers.

00:30:25Guest:Whatever.

00:30:26Guest:Yeah.

00:30:26Marc:But it's like a tribalism.

00:30:27Marc:And it's like, you know, look, I'm a decent guy.

00:30:31Marc:Right, right.

00:30:31Marc:But I'm not going to hold back.

00:30:32Marc:100%.

00:30:33Marc:So it's just sort of, it's weird that it's become, that there are these dividing lines.

00:30:38Guest:Yes.

00:30:38Guest:And of course you hit the nail on the head with that stuff in terms of like, um, there's, there's a couple of comic, well, comedy has always been anti-establishment back to Bruce.

00:30:49Guest:If you, if you do it correctly.

00:30:50Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:30:51Guest:It's kind of countercultural.

00:30:53Guest:It's a bit subversive.

00:30:54Guest:It's a little bit edgy.

00:30:56Guest:That's the point of it.

00:30:57Guest:And so I think you had a lot of history of comedy, and let's just move it to right recently.

00:31:02Guest:You've had a couple of guys who are kind of edgy in that they'll poke the bear with fake stuff, but they're also great at comedy.

00:31:09Guest:Yeah.

00:31:09Guest:And so all these amateurs watch these guys do it and go, that's what comedy is.

00:31:15Guest:Just saying edgy stuff and make people angry.

00:31:17Guest:You don't see the skill.

00:31:18Guest:They just see the TikTok insult or whatever.

00:31:22Marc:Or just they look at it as an easy way in.

00:31:24Guest:Yeah.

00:31:24Marc:Is that they find their people.

00:31:25Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:31:26Guest:They'll find a way to kind of monetize their fan base.

00:31:29Marc:But the thing is, the anti-authority thing, it's like even with the way that the media world is fragmenting and that you don't need mainstream media to succeed anymore.

00:31:42Marc:But the thing is, is that like all this, the idea of anti-authority or, you know, rebelliousness, you know, once it's half the goddamn country.

00:31:51Yeah.

00:31:51Marc:It's not really that anymore.

00:31:53Guest:Well, here's the thing.

00:31:54Guest:I agree with you, of course.

00:31:56Guest:But the thing is that being anti-establishment is like... This is what Kyle Kinane said one time.

00:32:03Guest:He just told me being a comedy is supposed to be anti-institution.

00:32:08Guest:We're supposed to make fun of institutions.

00:32:10Guest:And then suddenly you look up one day and suddenly you're the institution.

00:32:13Guest:And so...

00:32:15Guest:what I'm trying to say is that like the left and the right both have their institutions.

00:32:19Guest:So sometimes you're making fun of the left.

00:32:22Guest:And because they started out as a grassroots thing, but then they became an institution to itself.

00:32:28Guest:So to your point of like half the country's rebellious,

00:32:33Guest:I think that that just means that you can make fun of that extreme left and extreme right.

00:32:40Guest:No, absolutely.

00:32:41Marc:But outside of left and right, sometimes the bear you're poking is a guy you know.

00:32:47Marc:Right.

00:32:47Marc:So it's a matter of like, are you willing to take that risk?

00:32:51Marc:Yes, yes.

00:32:52Marc:I see what you're saying.

00:32:53Marc:I see what you're saying now.

00:32:54Marc:And for me personally— Like Rowan Atkinson.

00:32:56Marc:Right.

00:32:56Marc:I doubt he's going to give a fuck.

00:32:58Right.

00:32:59Marc:about what you said, but you use them as an example.

00:33:02Guest:No, that's a great example.

00:33:03Guest:And you made a choice.

00:33:04Guest:I hear what you're saying.

00:33:05Guest:And for me, you're absolutely right.

00:33:07Guest:There is a thing where suddenly, you know, I just think that there's this unspoken rule, honor among thieves of stand-up comics, you know?

00:33:17Guest:And you're older than me, so you've seen a lot more.

00:33:19Marc:No, there is, but I've crossed it before.

00:33:21Marc:And, you know, it's a weird thing.

00:33:24Marc:You know, that, you know, hey, man, you can say whatever you want, which I believe is true.

00:33:29Marc:But, you know, years ago, you know, I took a shot at, you know, Adam Sandler fans and, you know, came back to him.

00:33:36Marc:And then he comes up to me years ago and says, you know, why are you talking shit about me?

00:33:41Marc:I'm like, you're a cultural institution.

00:33:43Marc:I mean, you represent something.

00:33:45Marc:Like if I, you know, there's so many of us, I got to respect every fucking, you know what I mean?

00:33:50Guest:I think this is where we might have a point of difference.

00:33:52Guest:Yeah.

00:33:53Guest:Because for me, I was...

00:33:55Guest:Someone described me as a grateful immigrant mindset.

00:33:59Guest:I was so happy to come to America.

00:34:01Guest:All my comedy heroes appear.

00:34:04Guest:When I mean that, all I have is utmost respect for everybody's body of work.

00:34:08Guest:Up to a point.

00:34:10Guest:But that point has to be something heinous or really egregious.

00:34:14Guest:But if it's just an artist making their thing, doing their thing, I'm like, man, go for you.

00:34:20Guest:So that's why I don't go after comics.

00:34:21Guest:Because for me, I consider it like, oh...

00:34:23Guest:But you did.

00:34:25Marc:Sorry, American comics.

00:34:27Marc:And the point is, I understand what you're saying, and I agree with you.

00:34:31Marc:But at some point, once somebody dictates part of the establishment culture.

00:34:37Marc:No, you're right.

00:34:39Marc:I'm not taking anything away from anyone's craft or process or what they've contributed to the culture.

00:34:44Guest:You're talking about making fun of institutions, as I said before, when people become an institution.

00:34:48Guest:That's right.

00:34:48Guest:It's tricky.

00:34:49Guest:Yeah, theoretically.

00:34:50Guest:You're totally right.

00:34:54Guest:And that's also why you're a countercultural figure.

00:34:57Guest:You're willing to go after it.

00:34:58Marc:And I have a limited appeal.

00:35:02Guest:For me, I just got a lot of love for all the American comics I grew up watching.

00:35:07Guest:And it took me a long time to come here.

00:35:09Marc:Where did you start your life?

00:35:12Marc:You weren't born in Australia.

00:35:13Marc:Yeah.

00:35:13Guest:Yeah, I was born in Malaysia, Johor Bahwa, Malaysia.

00:35:19Guest:And then my parents went to New Hampshire College.

00:35:25Guest:New Hampshire College?

00:35:26Guest:Yeah, quite late in life.

00:35:27Guest:Actually, it's a community college that has since merged with Southern University of Southern New Hampshire.

00:35:31Marc:So you were in the States?

00:35:32Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:35:33Guest:After Malaysia.

00:35:34Guest:When I was three years old, my parents actually decided to go get a college degree.

00:35:39Guest:So they brought two kids and they went to America with no financial support.

00:35:44Guest:Brother, sister?

00:35:45Guest:Yeah, me and my sister.

00:35:46Guest:And so we lived in America while they completed their undergrad and master's.

00:35:50Guest:And then they moved back.

00:35:51Guest:What did they study?

00:35:52Guest:They studied like...

00:35:54Guest:And I think my dad did a master's in economics.

00:35:58Guest:Then my mom did a master's in MBA.

00:36:02Guest:Uh-huh.

00:36:04Guest:And so we're the immigrants who came and then we went back.

00:36:06Marc:Sure, to Malaysia.

00:36:08Guest:Went back to Malaysia.

00:36:08Guest:Yeah.

00:36:09Guest:And then after Malaysia, we went to Singapore.

00:36:12Guest:So for me, Malaysia and Singapore, it's like New Hampshire.

00:36:15Guest:Sorry, it's like New York, New Jersey.

00:36:17Guest:Yeah.

00:36:17Guest:So when people always ask me, like, are you Malaysian or Singaporean?

00:36:20Guest:I'm like, dude, I live on the border town of Malaysia.

00:36:23Guest:So I would wake up in Malaysia and then go to school in Singapore.

00:36:26Guest:Right.

00:36:26Guest:You know what I mean?

00:36:27Guest:So for me, you know, where I was in Malaysia, I would go in and out of Singapore all the time.

00:36:32Guest:So I spent 10 years in Singapore after that.

00:36:35Guest:So our immigrant story was that we only went for college.

00:36:39Guest:So we went back.

00:36:40Guest:You know what I mean?

00:36:40Guest:That's why we have American kind of knowledge, but not...

00:36:44Guest:a chip on our shoulder we want we want in america long enough to be mistreated we want you know we as a family as a family or even individually you know as a kid there's no racism in well i'm lucky i never saw yeah yeah there wasn't yeah i mean maybe i was too young to see i was no no i mean like look man you know at that level you know there's no

00:37:03Marc:Right.

00:37:03Marc:There's always racism, but now it's like there's something weird that's happening in the struggle for dominance culturally that because of how much attention is paid to a dialogue around racism, that there's a normalization going on that's a little disturbing.

00:37:23Guest:Of what?

00:37:23Marc:Well, in the sense that racists feel a little more comfortable being racist.

00:37:27Guest:Well, you know what?

00:37:28Guest:If they're comfortable...

00:37:29Guest:Say that stuff.

00:37:31Guest:Say that shit and let us know.

00:37:32Guest:Let us know your inner thoughts.

00:37:33Guest:Yeah.

00:37:34Guest:So we know that you're fucked up.

00:37:35Guest:Well, they are.

00:37:35Guest:They are, I think.

00:37:36Guest:Yeah.

00:37:36Guest:And I still believe there's more good people than bad people in America.

00:37:40Guest:And I still believe that when these racists out themselves, most people... Yeah.

00:37:45Guest:uh are gonna be upset at them and i don't think that you know the internet is reality sure and also like most people will be upset with them and then they'll just find the people that aren't upset with them and they'll do shows for them yes that and that's literally what happened i know but it won't be you know but you know the deal it's not as good as people make it out to be no no i think so i think a lot of people are just quietly living their lives yes most people are not on twitter yes

00:38:09Marc:You know, sadly, a lot of people were on Facebook and they got their minds fucked.

00:38:13Marc:But, like, I do believe that you're probably right.

00:38:15Marc:Most people are just, you know, living their lives and trying to do good.

00:38:18Marc:I think that the end of the first special, you know, is very touching.

00:38:21Guest:Oh, thank you.

00:38:22Guest:Both of them, actually.

00:38:23Marc:Thank you.

00:38:24Marc:Well, I mean, the subway story is on the first one, though, right?

00:38:26Guest:Yes.

00:38:26Guest:Yeah, that's good.

00:38:28Marc:Because, you know, because like there was I think that that message of humanity at the sort of as the arc of what you find is interesting and also bad about America and also where you come from and who you are, that that moment was a solid, solid ending.

00:38:44Marc:Thank you.

00:38:45Marc:But like that kind of stuff, you work that out in a comedy club?

00:38:48Guest:Yeah, I managed to figure it out at one of the best in the country, Madison on State, which is such a... The best.

00:38:55Guest:It's so interesting, the best clubs.

00:38:57Marc:The stage is a little high, right?

00:38:59Marc:Yeah, the stage is a little high, but still... It's great.

00:39:00Marc:Oh, no, no.

00:39:01Marc:Those two are great clubs.

00:39:02Marc:Acme is great.

00:39:03Marc:Yeah.

00:39:04Marc:Oh, so you did runs there to kind of pull it all together.

00:39:07Guest:Yeah.

00:39:07Guest:Yeah, well, to be honest, the way it happened was I was just happy to tour in America.

00:39:13Guest:I was looking to do comedy clubs.

00:39:15Guest:I was looking to live that life when I came here.

00:39:17Guest:So I was being booked, my agents were booking me at these A rooms, which I really appreciated, so-called A rooms.

00:39:24Guest:And truthfully, they were.

00:39:26Guest:And I wasn't preparing for a special.

00:39:28Guest:I was just touring for the sake of touring.

00:39:30Guest:I was just doing it.

00:39:31Marc:But do you do it like, I mean, I tend to write on stage.

00:39:33Marc:I write things down, so you're working it all out, and then to see if it sticks, it sticks.

00:39:37Guest:Yes, I write on stage.

00:39:38Guest:And in fact, I remember the reason I brought Madison is because I remember that's the first time I said that story out loud on stage.

00:39:44Marc:Yeah, because that's the only way I've been able to work.

00:39:46Marc:And I'm very hard on myself about that because when you see people that are straight-up joke writers, you're like, why the fuck can't I just do that?

00:39:55Marc:And I realized that...

00:39:56Marc:All of the joy for me is the joy of discovery.

00:40:00Marc:Like, you know, like if you just sit and write jokes like math problems, you know, for me, you know, I've done jokes like that.

00:40:06Marc:They've happened.

00:40:07Marc:Yes.

00:40:07Marc:But you get bored with them.

00:40:08Marc:Yes.

00:40:09Marc:Because, you know, it's sort of like, okay, that works.

00:40:11Marc:Yes.

00:40:13Guest:yeah it's pretty great no 100% I used to say well I didn't used to say I still say like the only time I don't know about you but the only time me as a standout comic can have a good gig yeah I'm saying a good spot is if I do the material and everything killed I had a good interaction with a crowd and it killed and I did something new that killed and I improv so that you know exactly yeah and so that's what you're speaking about is like if I if all those things that happen I'll just say like I have okay

00:40:41Marc:Yeah, for me, it's always that thing that came out of nowhere.

00:40:44Marc:Yes, yes.

00:40:45Marc:And, you know, I guess it's improv, but a lot of times, like, I get punchlines from, I don't know where they come from.

00:40:51Marc:The way I usually characterize it is, is that if I'm backed into a corner, you know, I'm not going to fight.

00:40:57Marc:I'm going to make jokes.

00:40:58Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:40:58Marc:And I'm going to sort of, like, get out.

00:41:00Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:41:01Marc:So that's what I. I'm the same.

00:41:02Marc:Yeah, that's what I do on stage.

00:41:03Marc:I'm the same.

00:41:04Marc:And, like, there's those moments where you, like, even on my special, two things happened that never happened before, and they were gone.

00:41:11Marc:Perfect.

00:41:12Marc:And I was like, I don't know where that comes from.

00:41:14Guest:Magic on the day.

00:41:14Guest:It is magic.

00:41:15Guest:Magic on the day.

00:41:16Guest:Alchemy is alchemy.

00:41:17Guest:Gold from nothing.

00:41:19Marc:Yeah, and then they become the strongest punchlines.

00:41:22Marc:I always think about it.

00:41:22Marc:It's like, why was that delivered to me?

00:41:24Guest:I know it comes from my brain, but it was delivered.

00:41:27Guest:Same.

00:41:28Guest:I feel the same.

00:41:29Guest:I feel exactly it.

00:41:29Guest:That's the magic, right?

00:41:30Guest:It is the magic.

00:41:31Guest:And the only way you can have, well, in my opinion, the only way you can have magic on the day is if you have magic on the page already.

00:41:37Marc:Yeah, and also if you're open to it.

00:41:39Guest:Yeah, you're open to it.

00:41:40Marc:I mean, I've done specials and things where I was... And you're not relying on it.

00:41:43Marc:You're not relying on magic on this.

00:41:45Marc:Yeah, and you don't give... You've got to get to a point, and you seem to have gotten there earlier than me, where you honestly are comfortable enough and don't give a fuck in some ways enough...

00:41:55Marc:To let it happen.

00:41:57Marc:You know what I mean?

00:41:57Marc:You have to be comfortable to let those moments happen.

00:42:00Guest:Yeah.

00:42:01Guest:Yes, yes.

00:42:01Guest:But I think that comfort for me came from just like constantly gigging.

00:42:06Guest:Yeah, of course.

00:42:07Guest:To the point where you have an out-of-body experience when you're doing your material and then you're so free with it.

00:42:12Guest:Yeah, it's the best.

00:42:13Guest:Yeah.

00:42:13Marc:So, okay.

00:42:14Marc:So you're in Singapore until you're how old?

00:42:17Guest:I was Singapore until I was 17, 18.

00:42:19Guest:Wow.

00:42:19Marc:Oh, so now are you taking comedy in?

00:42:21Marc:Is it something that's moving you early on?

00:42:23Marc:Are you being pulled different directions?

00:42:25Guest:What's happening?

00:42:25Guest:Yeah, no, nothing to do with comedy.

00:42:29Guest:Watching a lot of local Singaporean comedy, which is not stand-up.

00:42:33Guest:You know, it's just TV comedy.

00:42:34Guest:Is it broad?

00:42:36Guest:Yeah, very broad.

00:42:36Guest:Very broad.

00:42:37Guest:The only...

00:42:38Guest:the only inkling of standup comedy I had in my head was, one was when I was, when I was four years old, 1989.

00:42:45Guest:Yeah.

00:42:45Guest:Um, the Seinfeld will come on TV and we watch as a family and he would do the bits in between.

00:42:53Guest:Yeah.

00:42:53Guest:And I was like, what is this?

00:42:55Guest:Yeah.

00:42:56Guest:And then I told my, I remember telling my mom, I want to try that sometime.

00:43:00Guest:Really?

00:43:00Guest:She said, yeah.

00:43:01Marc:When you were four, that's good.

00:43:02Guest:Yeah.

00:43:02Guest:But, but I never did anything about it for 20 years.

00:43:05Marc:What were you doing?

00:43:06Marc:What were you thinking your life was going to be?

00:43:07Guest:Oh, I was trying to, I was just living in Singapore, which is a very, very specific experience.

00:43:15Guest:How so?

00:43:17Guest:It's a very specific country.

00:43:20Guest:It's not, it's in between, you know, it's English speaking and it's also Chinese culture culture.

00:43:29Guest:facing but it's not completely it's very unique Chinese diaspora you know it's nothing to very different to Hong Kong and China and Taiwan it's its own kind of little thing you know closer to Malaysia the population is like 5 million or something small so it has its own thing so it's like but it's a first world country so it's almost like Wakanda in that way it's

00:43:54Guest:It's Asia Wakanda.

00:43:57Guest:It's beautiful.

00:43:58Guest:It's beautiful.

00:43:59Guest:It's clean.

00:43:59Guest:It's safe.

00:44:00Guest:Healthcare is great.

00:44:02Guest:Education system is great.

00:44:03Guest:Culturally, probably not a lot for speech there.

00:44:08Guest:Why?

00:44:09Guest:That's just how they governed there.

00:44:11Guest:Lee Kuan Yew decided to prioritize economic survival over chewing gum and being able to say whatever you want.

00:44:23Guest:Because at that time, the founder of Singapore was fighting communists for control of Singapore.

00:44:29Guest:And so because of that, they had to kind of crack down a lot on people's ability to kind of express themselves and criticize the government.

00:44:37Marc:Oh, so you're saying in newspapers and publicly and whatever.

00:44:40Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:44:40Marc:But at home, you're okay.

00:44:41Marc:There's no way.

00:44:42Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:44:43Marc:No microphones in the house.

00:44:44Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:44:45Guest:No, no, no microphones in the house.

00:44:46Guest:It's not super draconian.

00:44:48Guest:A little bit kind of authoritarian maybe, but not like, yeah.

00:44:55Guest:And my second experience with stand-up comedy was they were broadcast just for laughs.

00:45:01Guest:From Canada?

00:45:02Guest:Yeah.

00:45:02Marc:I didn't know it was Canada.

00:45:03Marc:You know, I was wondering where they broadcast that because I've done so many of those galas and no one's ever fucking seen them.

00:45:08Marc:Maybe I should go to Singapore.

00:45:09Guest:You should go to Singapore, man.

00:45:11Guest:In the 90s, they were showing on TV.

00:45:12Guest:I remember watching this and going.

00:45:14Guest:And to be fair, it wasn't... They weren't like...

00:45:18Guest:global superstar comics.

00:45:20Guest:They were just showing the comics.

00:45:22Guest:Just the solid headline experience, funny headlines.

00:45:25Guest:I was watching this and going like, this stuff is really funny, man.

00:45:29Guest:And that's very interesting.

00:45:30Guest:But again, I never did anything about it because in Singapore, there's no infrastructure for that.

00:45:34Guest:The concept of stamp comedy, there's maybe one or two guys who are performing live.

00:45:39Marc:But were you studying something else?

00:45:40Marc:Did you have another plan?

00:45:41Guest:So I went to Australia when I was 18 and I went to law school.

00:45:46Guest:Your family didn't go to Australia?

00:45:47Guest:They were always in Singapore?

00:45:48Guest:Yeah.

00:45:50Guest:My sister went to Australia for medical school.

00:45:52Guest:Younger sister?

00:45:53Guest:Older sister.

00:45:54Guest:And so I went to Australia.

00:45:56Guest:It was almost like the path of least resistance because she was already there.

00:45:59Guest:To be honest, at that time, I was very much trying to get out of Singapore.

00:46:03Guest:So I went to Australia for law school because law school in Australia is undergraduate.

00:46:10Guest:Interesting.

00:46:11Guest:Really?

00:46:11Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:46:12Marc:So you thought that would be it?

00:46:15Marc:Did you find that that was a reaction to pressure from your folks?

00:46:21Marc:I mean, a doctor and a lawyer, that's pretty good.

00:46:23Guest:Yeah, it was a bit of a—definitely they pushed us in those directions, but I will say my sister took to medicine quite—

00:46:30Guest:quite organically.

00:46:33Guest:Is she a specialist?

00:46:34Guest:She's an anesthesiologist.

00:46:36Guest:Okay.

00:46:36Guest:And she was a great student and her personality type was just perfect for that academic, rigorous academic study.

00:46:45Guest:She loved it.

00:46:46Guest:She was great at it.

00:46:47Guest:So it just so happened that they pushed us but they pushed a kid who, in my opinion, my sister was always destined to be a doctor.

00:46:54Guest:So they just pushed her into what she was supposed to do anyway.

00:46:57Guest:And then for me, I...

00:46:59Guest:kind of don't blame my parents for going to law school i wanted to go because i went to really bad schools in singapore i was from very neighborhood uh shitty schools yeah and so going to law school was my way of kind of proving myself to the world of like you guys got it wrong i wasn't this dumbass i actually right could get into the best law school in australia right so that's what happened i got into the best law school in australia and i was there and i was the worst law student and i

00:47:26Guest:In the best law school in Australia.

00:47:28Guest:Terrible grades.

00:47:29Guest:But at that time, I was still like, oh, I just got to, I'm going to get a law degree.

00:47:34Guest:I did two degrees at once.

00:47:36Guest:I did a commerce degree and a law degree at the same time.

00:47:38Guest:And I was going to, in my head, I was like, oh, I'm going to go back to Singapore and become a lawyer in Singapore.

00:47:43Marc:Did you have any respect for the law?

00:47:46Marc:I mean, it would seem that given the nature of

00:47:48Marc:of authoritarianism or mild authoritarianism in Singapore that it would be fairly restrictive and you'd have to be operating, beholden to the government on some level as a lawyer.

00:47:59Guest:Yeah, yeah, of course.

00:48:00Guest:Of course, no, Singapore is, you know, two sides of the coin.

00:48:04Guest:So one side is authoritarian.

00:48:06Guest:That's the...

00:48:07Guest:ugly way to look at it.

00:48:08Guest:And the flip side, the positive way to look at it is that they're very rule-based.

00:48:12Guest:So it's very orderly.

00:48:13Guest:When you're there, it's very orderly.

00:48:14Marc:And that's why businesses do business there.

00:48:16Marc:It would make law a little simpler.

00:48:19Guest:Law is, I don't know if it's simpler there, but it's very bureaucratic and it's actually efficient.

00:48:28Guest:It's a very efficient country.

00:48:29Guest:In fact, the UN lists its healthcare system as like the third most efficient in the world.

00:48:34Guest:It's a very efficient country.

00:48:35Guest:So they respect the rule of law there and they respect systems that make sense.

00:48:40Guest:So everything in Singapore makes a lot of sense.

00:48:42Guest:When you go there...

00:48:43Guest:There's no dumb lines.

00:48:45Guest:Everything government-orientated is very logical.

00:48:49Guest:It'll be what's the best for the people.

00:48:51Marc:It seems like you have that kind of brain, though.

00:48:54Marc:Efficiency, yeah.

00:48:54Marc:You're not like a math guy, but a lot of the themes in your comedy are sort of like A plus B equals C. Don't fuck with it.

00:49:03Guest:Yeah, efficiency.

00:49:04Guest:Logical efficiency, I think, is...

00:49:08Guest:Because I grew up in that.

00:49:09Guest:So when I don't see in other countries, I'm always like, guys, there's a better way to do this.

00:49:14Guest:It's simple.

00:49:15Guest:Yeah, it's simple.

00:49:16Guest:So that frustration drives a lot of it.

00:49:17Guest:And then, yeah, so in Singapore, I was going to go back and become a lawyer.

00:49:23Guest:But then what happened was at my university, University of Melbourne, there was a campus comedy competition, a stand-up competition.

00:49:32Guest:And every year I would sign up.

00:49:34Guest:And then every year I would like...

00:49:36Guest:like not show up chicken freak out yeah yeah and then my final year of law school i was like well if i don't do this now i'm never gonna get to do this so i signed up and i spent two weeks just like freaking out over material and trying to figure it out that's the whole first 10 years of stand-up

00:49:51Guest:Yeah, and then I actually won that competition, and then that got me hooked.

00:49:58Guest:And then I just started looking for gigs outside of university.

00:50:01Marc:It was a good scene there, right?

00:50:03Guest:Melbourne had a few clubs?

00:50:06Guest:With the perspective I have now, by global standards, Melbourne has a great scene.

00:50:11Guest:By American New York standards, nothing can hold a candle to New York.

00:50:17Marc:Of course, in the whole world.

00:50:19Marc:But I remember...

00:50:21Marc:Yeah, I had one of the worst experiences of my life in Melbourne.

00:50:24Guest:Yeah, I heard something about this, but I obviously didn't know you at that time.

00:50:28Marc:No, it was like in the 90s, probably 94.

00:50:30Guest:Oh, okay.

00:50:30Marc:Then what happened?

00:50:31Marc:Well, nothing.

00:50:33Marc:I just took a gig at a place called The Last Laugh.

00:50:35Marc:I don't even know if it was still there.

00:50:36Guest:Yes, the Melbourne Calling Street.

00:50:38Guest:Yes, that's it.

00:50:38Guest:It's an old comedy clone.

00:50:39Marc:Right.

00:50:39Marc:And, you know, the guy booked me out of New York right after I left, you know, right before I left New York as a headliner.

00:50:45Marc:And that was a middle at best.

00:50:46Marc:It just didn't have the time.

00:50:47Marc:But I took the gig and it was like a four week run with one week of preview.

00:50:51Marc:So it was like a five week commitment.

00:50:53Marc:And I was just like struggling.

00:50:55Marc:that first week to get the hour done and do the time.

00:50:58Marc:And, you know, it was like, you know, the structures of the show was fucking with me.

00:51:03Marc:You know, they had like a host and then they had like these two women.

00:51:06Marc:One of them had an accordion and then they brought on a guy who closed by escaping from a straight jacket on a unicycle.

00:51:13Marc:And then they had an intermission.

00:51:15Marc:It was like a cruise ship.

00:51:16Marc:It was like a variety show.

00:51:18Marc:And I just like, you know, the week of previews, I was just pulling teeth and I didn't like being away from home.

00:51:23Marc:And I was just, I was losing it.

00:51:24Marc:And the first night, you know, I just bombed so hard, dude.

00:51:28Marc:Like I got up there and like someone said, you know, where'd you get that jacket?

00:51:31Marc:And I just froze.

00:51:32Marc:And for like 45 minutes, all I could hear were the embers of my cigarette burning.

00:51:36Marc:and they sent me home, and I was so grateful.

00:51:39Marc:They were just sort of like, this isn't working out.

00:51:42Marc:But it was horrible, and I'll never forget it, but it was one of the worst experiences of my life.

00:51:47Marc:But it was my own fault.

00:51:48Marc:I just couldn't, I didn't have the time.

00:51:50Marc:I took a job I couldn't handle.

00:51:51Marc:And it was so weird because for years,

00:51:55Marc:You know, I had this weird memory, and then I went to Scotland, and I realized that the host... Edinburgh, yeah.

00:52:00Marc:Yeah, and I've only gone there once.

00:52:03Marc:I'll never go back.

00:52:03Marc:But I went there, and the host, like, it was Greg Fleet.

00:52:07Marc:Yeah.

00:52:08Marc:And I recognized him.

00:52:09Marc:This was, like, 20 years later or whatever.

00:52:11Marc:I'm like, oh, you were there!

00:52:12Guest:And he's like, yes!

00:52:13Guest:You know, and it was so funny.

00:52:14Guest:That's so funny.

00:52:15Guest:I haven't heard an American say the word Greg Fleet in a while.

00:52:19Guest:He's an OG.

00:52:20Guest:Oh, yeah, for sure.

00:52:22Guest:Did you go see Jeff Stilson?

00:52:25Guest:Sure, I knew Stilson here.

00:52:26Guest:Right.

00:52:27Guest:He was in Melbourne at the time, right?

00:52:29Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:52:29Guest:He moved there for a bit.

00:52:30Marc:Yeah, because he's married to—I don't know where he is now.

00:52:32Marc:He's married to an Australian, I think.

00:52:33Guest:Yeah, but he's in L.A.

00:52:34Guest:He's been in L.A.

00:52:34Guest:for the last almost eight years, I would say.

00:52:38Guest:That's so weird.

00:52:38Marc:I should interview him.

00:52:39Guest:Yeah.

00:52:40Guest:He's great, man.

00:52:41Guest:Stilson, any comedy club worth its salt in America, if you go there, you'll see his photo on the wall.

00:52:47Guest:Yeah.

00:52:47Guest:No, he was great, dude.

00:52:48Guest:And I think he was like, he wrote for Letterman, I think.

00:52:51Guest:Yes, he won many Emmys for Letterman.

00:52:54Guest:Yeah.

00:52:54Guest:And then he came to Australia and you would see him at these like bar shows in Melbourne.

00:53:01Guest:And he would come and he was so down to earth and so humble.

00:53:04Guest:You wouldn't guess that he's the most qualified comic in the country at that time.

00:53:08Guest:He would come and be like, hey, do you mind if I get some stage time?

00:53:11Guest:You know, I used to write for Letterman.

00:53:13Guest:I have some Emmys.

00:53:13Guest:Yeah.

00:53:14Guest:Yeah.

00:53:14Guest:Of course, man.

00:53:15Guest:And he had great jokes.

00:53:16Guest:Yes, he's a great joke writer.

00:53:18Guest:And also, not that I guess this doesn't matter anymore, but he's a great person.

00:53:23Guest:Yeah, nice guy.

00:53:24Guest:Very generous with his time.

00:53:25Guest:S-T-I-L-S-O-N, right?

00:53:27Guest:Yes, Stilson.

00:53:28Guest:I didn't fucking interview him.

00:53:29Guest:You gotta get him, man.

00:53:30Guest:He's a connection to a previous world.

00:53:32Marc:Oh, I know, dude.

00:53:32Guest:I like those guys, and I know him, and that's so weird, dude.

00:53:36Guest:Yeah.

00:53:36Guest:He's still touring, man.

00:53:38Guest:He works with Louis Black sometimes.

00:53:40Guest:Yeah.

00:53:41Guest:Opening for Louis Black.

00:53:42Marc:Okay, so you win the competition.

00:53:44Marc:Now you're doing mics?

00:53:45Guest:Yeah, so I'm doing mics, and my whole thing from the start was, like, I kind of figured out pretty quickly, like, I don't want anyone I know to ever come for these gigs because I want to prove myself to total strangers who are not invested in your outcome.

00:54:01Marc:I just didn't want the pressure of my family there or friends.

00:54:05Marc:When I was starting out in New York, I would make the comics leave.

00:54:08Marc:When I first got into the cellar and I saw Attal come into the room, I'm like, get out.

00:54:13Guest:I can't do it.

00:54:14Guest:That's really fun.

00:54:17Guest:I didn't have the clout you had to chase comics out of the room.

00:54:19Marc:Well, they were my contemporaries, so we were all the same time.

00:54:22Guest:Yeah, but I would do it.

00:54:26Guest:I just wanted to test myself in public, so I just kept doing it.

00:54:28Guest:And in Melbourne, it's kind of like when I was starting out, if you could get one gig a month, you were like killing it because that's how— For a mic?

00:54:37Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:54:37Guest:Oh, so you can go on every week?

00:54:39Guest:No, eventually you will work your way.

00:54:42Guest:Let's say I was doing it for a year, two years, and then you build a little bit of reputation and then you could get on like maybe once a week.

00:54:49Guest:Who are the people, who are your contemporaries there?

00:54:51Guest:In Australia?

00:54:52Guest:Yeah.

00:54:53Guest:Nazeem Hussain, Matt Okine, Tommy Little, Nick Cody.

00:54:57Guest:Bunch of guys.

00:55:00Guest:These guys were probably my peers.

00:55:02Guest:And what was interesting about us, Reese Nicholson.

00:55:05Marc:Wasn't Arge Barker the king of Australia?

00:55:07Guest:Arge Barker is still the king of Australia.

00:55:09Guest:I played poker with him.

00:55:11Guest:He's a great guy, man.

00:55:12Marc:I knew him before he left in San Francisco.

00:55:15Guest:He found a place where he could make a ton of money.

00:55:17Guest:And the thing about all my peers was that we...

00:55:24Guest:we couldn't get on TV to save our lives.

00:55:27Guest:Partially because there weren't vehicles for us, really.

00:55:30Guest:In Australia.

00:55:31Guest:In Australia.

00:55:32Guest:And also, not to pat ourselves on the back, but we were a little... We were green, but we were definitely the counter-cultural vibe.

00:55:39Guest:Because, you know, Reese Nicholson, gay man, me being whoever I am, Nazeem, Muslim, Sri Lankan.

00:55:50Guest:And so, there were...

00:55:52Guest:There was no place for us on TV.

00:55:54Guest:And because of that, we just did live.

00:55:58Guest:And it kind of worked in our favor because you would hear about us, but then the only way you could see us was to come live.

00:56:04Guest:Yeah.

00:56:05Guest:And so we kind of built a following.

00:56:06Guest:So all my peers, we kind of built a live following.

00:56:09Guest:So it was not, I mean, I think that.

00:56:11Guest:Without TV.

00:56:12Marc:So it was kind of alt comedy, but not really.

00:56:14Marc:Not really, yeah.

00:56:15Marc:You were just, you had to find your own place.

00:56:17Guest:Yes, we had the final place and thankfully live was it.

00:56:20Guest:And who were you watching?

00:56:23Marc:Who was influencing you?

00:56:24Marc:Because I feel like there's definitely markers.

00:56:27Marc:Yes.

00:56:28Marc:But who were the guys where you saw a template?

00:56:33Guest:um like as a fan uh there were a lot of guys man i actually uh uh bill burr was obviously huge um and i'm so glad he actually eped my special yeah so i'm glad to be friends with him you know um which one the new one or the first

00:56:48Guest:Both of them.

00:56:49Guest:And I opened for him in Australia.

00:56:50Guest:That's why I met him.

00:56:51Guest:And he was super cool to me.

00:56:54Guest:I love Todd Berry.

00:56:56Guest:I think Todd Berry is great.

00:56:59Guest:I get a lot of inspiration from Chappelle.

00:57:03Guest:Not so much, obviously, in our styles, but just aesthetics and how he can talk about... Structure.

00:57:12Guest:Yeah, longer stuff.

00:57:14Guest:He's very super funny, obviously.

00:57:17Guest:So stuff like that.

00:57:18Guest:Never looked at any Hicks?

00:57:20Guest:No.

00:57:20Guest:Bill Hicks?

00:57:21Guest:No, no.

00:57:21Guest:I watch Bill Hicks for sure, but I feel like Bill Hicks is a very... That style is actually very hard for anyone to...

00:57:30Guest:for anyone to try to even attempt because he's making great jokes, great points, and he's doing it in such an easy manner.

00:57:40Guest:And people without that skill, you end up being just very self-indulgent, I feel.

00:57:46Guest:Right, right.

00:57:48Marc:But there is what you do push.

00:57:52Marc:Mm-hmm.

00:57:52Marc:You know, you do push people, you know, in the sense that like you're going to, you know, take them to the edge.

00:57:59Marc:Sure, sure.

00:57:59Marc:And hopefully relieve it.

00:58:01Guest:I hope so.

00:58:01Guest:Yeah.

00:58:02Guest:Yeah.

00:58:02Guest:I think that I kind of got that from Chappelle probably.

00:58:04Guest:Yeah.

00:58:05Guest:The idea of going to the edge of a long story.

00:58:06Guest:The what's it called?

00:58:07Guest:Shaggy dog story.

00:58:08Guest:Yeah.

00:58:09Guest:Yeah.

00:58:09Guest:Right.

00:58:09Guest:And then you hopefully you can release it.

00:58:12Guest:I think that a lot of it was also.

00:58:16Guest:I realized like I was, for me, comedy was always an expression of anger and things that frustrated me.

00:58:23Guest:Right from the start.

00:58:24Guest:So I won't say that that was influenced by anyone's style.

00:58:26Guest:That's always how I naturally just, I was trying to say stuff that I was pissed off about.

00:58:30Guest:And I remember I was maybe two or three years into comedy.

00:58:33Guest:I've been doing it for not that long, but I've been doing more shows than I was watching.

00:58:39Guest:So I hadn't watched a comedy show in a while as an audience member.

00:58:43Guest:And so I remember I was maybe two or three years in and I went to go watch a comedy show just to fucking do it.

00:58:50Guest:And I remember sitting there and I remember feeling like, man, you know what?

00:58:54Guest:These guys, everyone in the audience,

00:58:56Guest:you don't know what's going on in their lives.

00:58:58Guest:You don't know what the hell these guys are going through.

00:59:01Guest:People here might be dealing with horrible tragedies.

00:59:04Guest:They came here to kind of escape for a bit.

00:59:07Guest:They're here for you.

00:59:09Guest:They pay money.

00:59:09Guest:They want to laugh.

00:59:11Guest:And they...

00:59:13Guest:It's so dumb to say, but I just gained a new empathy for the audience.

00:59:18Guest:And so how that affected me on stage was that my anger, I used to be yelling at the crowd, which you can do for five minutes or 10 minutes, but an hour is like, come on, man.

00:59:28Guest:So...

00:59:28Guest:that experience of sitting and gaining empathy for the audience, for me, it became like, oh, I need to get the audience to, let's all get angry at this thing together.

00:59:36Guest:You know, let me point something out.

00:59:39Guest:This thing is so stupid.

00:59:40Guest:It's not personal.

00:59:41Guest:And to the point where I don't even like to talk to the crowd if I can help it because I feel like,

00:59:46Guest:I didn't want to put them through that, you know, like obviously a fun interaction is always fun or whatever.

00:59:50Guest:Yeah.

00:59:51Guest:But it just became like, you know what?

00:59:53Guest:I'll give these guys the benefit of the doubt that they've had a long day and that they're here for me.

00:59:57Guest:Yeah.

00:59:58Guest:Even if it's not my show.

00:59:59Guest:Yeah.

00:59:59Guest:And so let me just, you know, bring it.

01:00:03Guest:Don't yell at him for it.

01:00:04Guest:Yeah.

01:00:04Guest:Don't abuse them, which I think it's a tendency.

01:00:06Guest:Sure, I do it.

01:00:07Guest:yeah like i think like performing artists with ego as we all do sometimes we we just you know we take it out on the crowd yeah when really it you know we should be bringing them on for me anyway i bring them on it and then obviously if they piss me off i'll fucking take it on them but like but like it all comes out though like yeah once you turn over the new leaf and you're just gonna be an entertainer all it takes is one asshole and like an entire history of rage

01:00:32Guest:Yeah, I try not to take out the whole thing.

01:00:35Guest:And being in control of your emotions and having... One thing about stand-up is I feel like the more experience you get, the more you felt all these different types of energy.

01:00:47Guest:And because of that, you freak out less when you feel...

01:00:50Guest:Yeah, you can feel it.

01:00:51Marc:People don't realize it, but when the opener's on, you can feel a room.

01:00:56Marc:Just by the audience.

01:00:57Marc:Even if it's not you.

01:00:58Marc:The difference between the rumbling of a second show crowd versus a first show crowd.

01:01:03Marc:You can feel it immediately.

01:01:04Guest:100%.

01:01:04Guest:And you can even feel specific situations.

01:01:08Marc:Oh, that table.

01:01:08Guest:Yeah, that table.

01:01:10Guest:Oh, this heckle is... Oh, this is the fun heckle.

01:01:12Guest:They're probably not going to say it again.

01:01:14Guest:Or this is the... Oh, they're not going to let me continue to show energy.

01:01:17Guest:And you feel these different energies.

01:01:18Guest:And the more you felt the energies, the less you get freaked out by it.

01:01:21Guest:Yeah, because you can handle it.

01:01:22Guest:You can handle it.

01:01:24Guest:Yeah.

01:01:24Guest:And in the back of your head, maybe it's like, worst case scenario, what's going to happen is that I did my work.

01:01:30Guest:These guys suck.

01:01:30Guest:Well, what do you want me to do about it?

01:01:31Guest:Well, that's right.

01:01:32Marc:Well, you know, that... Right.

01:01:33Marc:Yeah, Stuart Lee talked about that with me.

01:01:35Marc:Like, he had a realization that...

01:01:37Marc:You know, he's just not everybody's cup of tea.

01:01:41Marc:Yes.

01:01:41Marc:So, like, if you're looking out in an audience and somebody is not laughing, as opposed to being like, you know, what the fuck is your problem?

01:01:47Marc:Just realize, like, yes, you should have done a little research.

01:01:50Guest:Right.

01:01:51Guest:Right, right, right.

01:01:51Guest:Don't blame the audience, you know, or give them the benefit of the doubt.

01:01:54Marc:Well, just say, like, sorry, I'm not your, you know, this is not going to work out for you.

01:01:57Guest:Right.

01:01:57Marc:So, you know, what are you going to do?

01:01:58Marc:Right.

01:01:59Marc:But so how did you get The Daily Show?

01:02:01Marc:You're working in Australia.

01:02:03Guest:Are you making a living?

01:02:03Guest:So I finished law school, and I did two degrees in five years, and then I spent the next five years doing stand-up comedy.

01:02:12Guest:For money?

01:02:13Guest:For money, yeah, for money.

01:02:14Guest:In Australia?

01:02:15Guest:In Australia, and I was building, I kept getting kind of mini wins, you know, enough wins to keep me going.

01:02:23Guest:Oh, you know, like I would sell out this room and then I would win this award and then I would sell out this bigger room and then I get on TV for this small thing and then, you know, you get a bad review and then you sell out a bigger room.

01:02:41Guest:How often did you do Edinburgh?

01:02:43Guest:I did it...

01:02:44Guest:three times.

01:02:44Guest:I hate it every single time, and I'll never go back.

01:02:48Guest:I love the city.

01:02:49Guest:Oh no, it's beautiful.

01:02:50Guest:I went once, and I'll never go back.

01:02:52Guest:But the Fringe Festival, not for me.

01:02:54Guest:But I respect the Fringe Festival as a marathon, and this is me.

01:02:58Guest:I couldn't hack it.

01:02:59Guest:So that's not the festival thing.

01:03:01Guest:It's me.

01:03:01Guest:I couldn't hack it there, but I tried.

01:03:04Guest:I gave it a good try.

01:03:05Guest:And I talk about it in my second special.

01:03:06Guest:I know.

01:03:07Guest:I knew what you were talking about.

01:03:08Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:03:08Guest:About going back there.

01:03:10Guest:And you know, again, not to go in and out, but that story...

01:03:13Guest:What I hope is that people watching that, my actual point was, the joke is that I'm angry at the UK because I couldn't hack it there.

01:03:21Guest:Sure.

01:03:22Marc:But you're also rightfully angry at critics who don't do anything.

01:03:25Marc:Sure.

01:03:26Marc:Which is a broader point.

01:03:27Guest:Right, right.

01:03:27Guest:A broader point, yeah.

01:03:28Guest:I think you should be creating more than you complain.

01:03:31Guest:But yeah, and so in Australia, what happened was that I was at a point, I didn't have a TV vehicle at that time.

01:03:38Guest:And I wasn't Archbacher, but I was kind of like, not to pat myself on the back, but I was kind of like the Hannibal of Australia at that time.

01:03:46Guest:Not that I was as good as Hannibal, but that I was doing theaters without a TV vehicle.

01:03:53Guest:So I was just gaining a live following.

01:03:54Guest:And then I was being invited to Just for Laughs.

01:03:59Guest:You're making a living.

01:03:59Guest:Making a living, yeah, a decent living.

01:04:01Guest:And I went to Just For Last one year, and I did a gig with Trevor on the Eddie Izzard Gala.

01:04:12Marc:I think I was there that year.

01:04:14Marc:Because I did a live WTS with Trevor and Eddie.

01:04:18Marc:It must have been that year.

01:04:19Marc:Yes, yes.

01:04:20Guest:And then he, Trevor...

01:04:24Guest:said very nice things about me but we you know we didn't even exchange numbers or anything and then two years later when he got a daily show I get this um request to audition and I'm like oh this I was like this has to be Trevor because right they wouldn't know otherwise and so because of that uh I auditioned I got hired and Trevor was like yeah I wanted you

01:04:47Guest:to come on because I wanted an Asian person on the show because it's a big fucking population.

01:04:54Guest:And I was like, damn, thanks, man.

01:04:55Guest:Because I'm sure he had more talented friends who he was closer to at that time when he got the show.

01:05:01Guest:But he said, go with this guy who, you know, we... He just didn't have enough Asian closer friends.

01:05:06Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:05:06Guest:He didn't, but he stuck his neck out for me.

01:05:09Guest:And so that contributed to my gratefulness in America.

01:05:14Guest:It was like, damn, everyone here gave me a shot.

01:05:17Marc:So by the time you come here, you're a headlining comic.

01:05:21Guest:In Australia.

01:05:22Marc:Yeah, but you had the chops.

01:05:25Guest:I hope I had the chops.

01:05:26Guest:Of course you did.

01:05:27Guest:But I came with a lot of humility.

01:05:29Guest:And one thing was that John Oliver actually told me this.

01:05:32Guest:Because when I first got the job at The Daily Show, I went to go meet with Oliver in his office.

01:05:37Guest:And The Daily Show alumni is like Harvard Business School.

01:05:40Guest:Yeah.

01:05:40Guest:Like so many people, not just on camera, but off camera.

01:05:43Guest:And so when he heard I was correspondent, he immediately said, yeah, come to my office at 8 a.m.

01:05:48Guest:before the day starts.

01:05:49Guest:So I went to his office and we talked and John Oliver told me that it took him two years to relearn how to do comedy in America.

01:05:57Guest:And he was spot on to the day.

01:06:00Guest:Because if you're a headliner in another country, you can come to America and you can kill for 10 minutes.

01:06:06Guest:You can kill for 20.

01:06:07Guest:You might even kill for 40.

01:06:09Guest:but you'll be killing on the... Oh, I'm not from America.

01:06:16Guest:This is what you can do in America.

01:06:17Guest:That's kind of weird.

01:06:18Guest:And you can kill for that.

01:06:19Guest:And there's nothing wrong with that per se.

01:06:21Guest:But I feel like after six months, nine months of that, one year of that, the audience can kind of smell that like, wait a second, you've been here long enough.

01:06:31Guest:This shouldn't surprise you anymore.

01:06:34Guest:And then that's when it starts to crumble.

01:06:35Guest:And so the...

01:06:38Guest:The thing that Oliver was trying to tell me was that it took him two years to learn enough about American culture that you could joke about it in a way which even Americans can be like, oh yeah.

01:06:46Guest:As someone who lives here.

01:06:47Guest:Right.

01:06:47Guest:Oh yeah, that's cool.

01:06:49Guest:We know we have a lot of guns.

01:06:50Guest:Tell us something we don't know.

01:06:51Guest:Oh, that's a good point.

01:06:53Guest:And it took me two years to do that.

01:06:55Guest:I remember when I could feel it, it was literally two years to the day.

01:06:57Guest:No kidding.

01:06:58Guest:And I was like, damn, okay, I got something here where I'm joking about in the first special, I'm kind of joking about America, but at least I'm saying something I hope that is not too, you know, like hacky immigrant and stuff.

01:07:09Marc:So in those five years, like you're from 2015 and you're doing The Daily Show, you got a hell of a schedule and you're running around doing, you know, four or five spots a night in New York.

01:07:17Guest:It's a dream.

01:07:18Guest:It was a dream.

01:07:18Guest:Yeah.

01:07:19Guest:It still is a dream.

01:07:19Marc:Yeah.

01:07:20Guest:Continues to be a dream to work at a Daily Show and then at night book gigs and run around Manhattan and Brooklyn and wherever doing stand-up spots.

01:07:28Guest:Yeah.

01:07:28Guest:Is the fucking dream.

01:07:30Guest:You know, I watched it.

01:07:32Guest:Jerry Seinfeld's comedian.

01:07:33Guest:Yeah.

01:07:34Guest:You watch him driving his Porsche.

01:07:35Guest:I didn't go down the cellar.

01:07:36Guest:And I'm like, this dude doesn't need to work anymore.

01:07:39Marc:like literally he could stop working he'd be fine he's got enough money whatever and he's going out there and it's just this you can't well yeah it's it's either in you or it isn't and like you know like i you know i spent two years on the road doing this special and i thought i'll take a little break within three days i was at the store yeah yeah come on what am i gonna do yeah

01:07:58Guest:What am I going to do?

01:08:00Guest:What am I going to do?

01:08:01Guest:And there's something so great about that directness and we don't need to talk about comedy.

01:08:05Guest:How does your wife handle it?

01:08:07Guest:She was like, you can't.

01:08:09Guest:She actually was like, you have to set aside at least one night a week.

01:08:15Guest:You can't be going every single night.

01:08:17Marc:You've been married since 2016?

01:08:19Marc:Yeah.

01:08:19Guest:yeah but I've known her since law school so we've been together a long time so she knows you yeah she's seen the she's been through the obstacles yeah she's seen the you know the obstacles that are still here by the way so yeah and I've kind of

01:08:34Guest:uh like calm down a bit in new york city and all that but still man it's what a what a dream it's everyone's dream everyone's always like oh you know comics work hard but it's like we aspire to get to the point where we can get five spots a night

01:08:50Guest:Yeah.

01:08:50Guest:You know what I mean?

01:08:51Marc:But also, it's just that there's nothing more present than doing it.

01:08:55Marc:So, like, you know, it's a vital thing to our lives.

01:09:00Marc:Yeah.

01:09:00Marc:Because the immediacy of it, you know, like, especially if you work like we do, is that, you know, every time you go on and you're not, you know, you're not, like, going from the page, you're going from your mind and your heart.

01:09:12Marc:Yeah.

01:09:12Marc:And you don't know what's going to happen exactly.

01:09:15Marc:Yeah.

01:09:15Marc:I mean, what's going to make you feel more alive than that?

01:09:19Marc:Yeah.

01:09:19Marc:It's a joy.

01:09:20Marc:It's a real joy.

01:09:21Marc:It took me a while to see it as a joy.

01:09:23Marc:It just started.

01:09:24Marc:It took like 30 years.

01:09:27Marc:Before, it was just sort of like, I have to do this.

01:09:30Guest:Wow.

01:09:31Guest:Yeah, you say that, but we all know.

01:09:33Guest:We all know your dirty secret, man.

01:09:35Guest:You love this stuff.

01:09:36Marc:I love this stuff.

01:09:37Marc:Can't get off of it.

01:09:38Marc:But what was your learning curve on the acting?

01:09:41Marc:I mean, was that just something you saw as part of it?

01:09:44Marc:And that, you know, you... Still learning.

01:09:47Marc:Still learning.

01:09:47Guest:Sure.

01:09:47Guest:Yeah.

01:09:48Guest:Still learning.

01:09:48Guest:And it... Like, for me, what the... First of all, it's a joy to...

01:09:57Guest:uh, perform and act.

01:10:00Guest:So that's a primary thing.

01:10:01Guest:And then, uh, it was cool to be part of other people's cool projects.

01:10:07Guest:So, you know, in, in comedy is so much on you, obviously the whole thing's on you.

01:10:10Guest:And then when you're doing acting movies, especially when you're doing smaller roles, like what I do, you're just surrendering to other people's vision.

01:10:17Guest:And there's something really relieving about that.

01:10:20Guest:I'm just here for you.

01:10:21Guest:What do you want?

01:10:22Guest:You want this?

01:10:22Guest:Uh,

01:10:22Guest:Literally, I think comics are like, just give me the line read.

01:10:25Guest:I don't care.

01:10:26Guest:You know what I mean?

01:10:27Guest:I tell dick jokes in bars.

01:10:29Guest:Give me the line read.

01:10:30Guest:All we care about is the punchline.

01:10:34Guest:So there was real joy in that.

01:10:35Guest:But then I found a secondary joy, which is going to give you a bad impression of me as though I'm very materialistic.

01:10:41Guest:But there is a joy in doing stand-up and not having the pressure of your whole life.

01:10:48Guest:Hanging on.

01:10:49Guest:Sure.

01:10:50Guest:Yeah.

01:10:50Marc:That's what you work for.

01:10:52Guest:Right.

01:10:52Guest:And so being able to act, which in America, you know, Hollywood to me is just another.

01:10:57Guest:Oh, I see.

01:10:57Guest:You're saying financially.

01:10:58Guest:Financially and profile wise.

01:11:00Guest:Right.

01:11:01Guest:Where you have the freedom to do stand up on your terms, hopefully.

01:11:05Guest:Right.

01:11:06Marc:Right.

01:11:06Marc:So you're saying that, you know, taking acting gigs that are lucrative.

01:11:09Marc:Yes.

01:11:09Marc:Affords you, you know, more choice.

01:11:11Guest:Yes, yes.

01:11:13Guest:And for me, what I learned from Chappelle is to do stand-up comedy on your terms.

01:11:17Guest:Yeah.

01:11:18Guest:Do it on your terms.

01:11:20Marc:I can't do it any other way.

01:11:22Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:11:23Guest:But very few people are able to build a fan base.

01:11:26Guest:Sure.

01:11:27Guest:Yeah, right.

01:11:27Marc:You can do it on your terms.

01:11:29Marc:Doesn't mean people will come.

01:11:30Guest:Right.

01:11:30Guest:So getting the people to come on your terms is a whole other thing.

01:11:34Guest:Yeah, and getting people to kind of buy into what you're doing and to trust you.

01:11:38Guest:And I think that's one thing with stand-up comedy that is interesting is people... I think some people don't understand like...

01:11:45Guest:that when you go see live performance, you should be surrendering to the artist's experience.

01:11:52Guest:And I think in America, Americans are so used to everything happening on their terms.

01:11:58Guest:I pay money.

01:12:00Guest:I'm the boss here now.

01:12:03Guest:And not that you should be abused when you go for a live performance.

01:12:07Guest:I'm just saying that when you go for a live performance, I think you have to surrender yourself up to the artist's experience a bit.

01:12:13Guest:And then you'll have a better time.

01:12:14Guest:But if you go in kind of like, I'm going to like or dislike this like a TikTok video.

01:12:20Marc:I find that if you keep your tickets reasonable, their expectations are manageable.

01:12:25Guest:Yeah, yeah, exactly.

01:12:25Guest:That too.

01:12:26Guest:That too, man.

01:12:27Guest:You know, I like to keep a, you know, someone once told, who told me this?

01:12:31Guest:Like accommodation would be more than 50 bucks or something.

01:12:34Guest:Yeah.

01:12:34Guest:It shouldn't be more.

01:12:36Marc:But I get, you know, I know, you know, guys, you know, there's certain guys who are like, oh, this is the Cash Grab 2 tour.

01:12:41Marc:Yeah.

01:12:42Marc:Yeah.

01:12:43Marc:But, you know, I mean, you can't begrudge them for that.

01:12:46Marc:I mean, sometimes you only have a certain window, you know, as a comic.

01:12:50Yeah.

01:12:50Guest:Yeah, I'm also worried about that too.

01:12:52Guest:You know, if you look historically.

01:12:54Guest:Sure.

01:12:55Guest:But then you see guys who like the window was a window of a profile window, not a ability window.

01:13:02Guest:So you see all these legends going on, you know, they don't have TV vehicles and they're just touring.

01:13:06Guest:But they have audiences.

01:13:08Marc:They just churn out that new hour every year.

01:13:10Marc:Some of them have like, you know, like Regan.

01:13:12Marc:And I'm sure he's great.

01:13:13Marc:Oh, of course.

01:13:13Marc:Yeah.

01:13:14Marc:But like Regan does a big business with the Mormons.

01:13:17Marc:Yeah.

01:13:17Marc:Like, you know, like every year it's a big nut.

01:13:20Marc:Yeah.

01:13:20Marc:Playing in an arena in Salt Lake City in Utah.

01:13:22Guest:Exactly.

01:13:23Guest:Three, four nights.

01:13:24Guest:But that's what I'm talking about.

01:13:24Guest:Like, like, you know, I call it like the quietly selling out arenas.

01:13:29Marc:Yeah.

01:13:29Marc:Well, I'm just, but it's still, that's never been, I don't think that's ever been my goal.

01:13:33Marc:And like, I don't know.

01:13:35Marc:And there's some part of me that, you know, like, I don't want that many people to like me.

01:13:39Marc:Sure.

01:13:39Marc:I don't know why.

01:13:40Marc:Well, you're countercultural.

01:13:41Marc:I get, well, I know, but it's not like an intentional.

01:13:43Guest:Borderline self-destructive.

01:13:45Marc:Yeah, it's not, it's not, it's not intentional.

01:13:47Marc:It's just like, you know, I think I'm, you know, it's just, you know, I believe I can entertain anybody.

01:13:53Marc:Yeah.

01:13:53Marc:But ultimately I can't be something I'm not.

01:13:55Guest:Sure.

01:13:56Marc:So my people, there's going to be a ceiling.

01:13:58Marc:Sure.

01:13:58Guest:On my people, you know, I think.

01:14:00Guest:I think you're putting a ceiling on yourself, but, but, but yes, but, but no, no.

01:14:04Guest:Do you have a book I can read?

01:14:06Guest:Tony Robbins.

01:14:07Guest:Yeah.

01:14:08Guest:But the broader, I think the deeper point you're making is that I think that's what makes a great comic is when you're willing to be like, hey, I'm not for everyone.

01:14:15Guest:You know what I mean?

01:14:16Guest:And I feel that way too.

01:14:17Guest:I'm like, hey, I'm not for everyone.

01:14:18Guest:I am not for everyone.

01:14:19Guest:And I constantly try to say that to people that I'm not for everyone.

01:14:24Marc:I did a line where I said, I'm not for everyone.

01:14:27Marc:I'm barely for me.

01:14:28Marc:Yeah, that's great.

01:14:30Guest:But I think that's what comics, you gotta, that's why great comedy comes from not being from everyone, right?

01:14:36Marc:Yeah, and it's one of the reasons why I can't stand some of what's happening in sort of the tribalism of comedy.

01:14:41Marc:It's like, I didn't get in this to hang out with a bunch of guys.

01:14:45Marc:I don't know, you know what I mean?

01:14:48Marc:I didn't get in this so we could all be like, we're doing the same thing.

01:14:51Guest:Sure, but whatever.

01:14:52Guest:Sure.

01:14:52Guest:But I don't know.

01:14:53Guest:Again, on our point of difference, I feel like for me, it's more like... I just feel like if you do stand-up comedy, you get the struggle so much that you can empathize with some other person who's doing it.

01:15:04Guest:Believe me.

01:15:05Marc:But it's sometimes like... You know, it's more about... When I go to the comedy store, I've talked to so many people.

01:15:12Marc:It's just like the guys that follow the wayside.

01:15:16Marc:It's so... The heartbreak of it and the inability...

01:15:19Marc:You know, because I was so close to that.

01:15:21Marc:And the inability to, you know, after a certain point, what are you going to go back to, man?

01:15:25Marc:It's heavy, dude.

01:15:27Marc:Like the risk of life it takes to do this doesn't come from a choice.

01:15:34Marc:It comes from a calling.

01:15:37Marc:Yeah, it's crazy.

01:15:38Guest:It is crazy.

01:15:40Guest:I mean, that's how we're able to talk for so long.

01:15:44Guest:We never met each other.

01:15:45Guest:And we were able to talk because we both shared the obsession.

01:15:48Marc:Well, this thing started me talking to comics.

01:15:51Marc:It was always me talking to comics, usually trying to make sure we were okay.

01:15:55Guest:Right, right.

01:15:56Guest:So how do you feel if I ask you a question?

01:15:59Guest:Do you look at younger comics and are you inclined to kind of maybe not...

01:16:11Marc:like what they're doing and then do you feel like you have to like curb yourself as like oh maybe i'm just no i mean like i like what i do know is like i don't it's not a matter of liking what people do really i mean i get it like i've been doing this you know for 40 years yes yes so or so 37 so like what what i noticed more than anything else is not unlike you know comedia della arte there's like 12 types and

01:16:36Marc:And, you know, they repeat themselves.

01:16:39Marc:Like, you know, I can see, you know, not necessarily points of view, but types of people that show up.

01:16:46Marc:And I've seen them before.

01:16:47Marc:And I see people doing jokes that have been done many times before, but they just discovered them.

01:16:53Marc:Not that they took them.

01:16:54Guest:Yes, yes.

01:16:54Guest:No, I know exactly what you mean.

01:16:56Marc:Yeah.

01:16:56Marc:So, like, you know, and I have room for that.

01:16:58Marc:And I'm not going to step in.

01:16:59Marc:I never, you know, comment on anybody.

01:17:02Marc:Yes.

01:17:02Marc:Like, but I do know when somebody means it and when they don't.

01:17:05Marc:Right.

01:17:06Marc:Like, I mean, if there's any issue I have is if somebody's using our world to launch into another world, I find that, you know, a little difficult.

01:17:14Marc:Yes.

01:17:14Marc:And I also find, you know, a certain type of ego difficult.

01:17:17Marc:Sure.

01:17:17Marc:But I understand it.

01:17:18Marc:Sure.

01:17:19Marc:So, I'm not harsh and I'm not really up to speed with a lot of the younger comics.

01:17:22Marc:Okay.

01:17:22Marc:But I do notice more than not, I notice people that can't help but be who they are as being interesting to me.

01:17:30Guest:Sure.

01:17:31Guest:So what you're saying is, there's a natural urge to when you've been doing it a long time to kind of, you've seen it all and dismiss newer...

01:17:42Guest:Well, I hope they get through it.

01:17:44Guest:It's not dismissed.

01:17:45Marc:It's just sort of like, all right, well, they're at, you know, I hope they, you know, either they're going to develop, but they're not.

01:17:50Marc:Right, right.

01:17:51Guest:But you do see an authenticity in comedy.

01:17:55Guest:Even if you don't like them, you don't like the act, you say, oh, this is a toilet, but you can see, oh, there's something here.

01:17:59Guest:Of course.

01:17:59Guest:There's something here.

01:18:00Marc:Yeah, or even if it's like it's not for me, I don't get it.

01:18:03Guest:Okay.

01:18:03Guest:But I understand it.

01:18:04Guest:Okay.

01:18:04Marc:And I know when people have put the work in.

01:18:06Marc:Sure.

01:18:07Guest:You know, and I respect that.

01:18:08Guest:Yeah.

01:18:08Guest:And the reason I ask this is because, you know, I'm at the age where I'm only 37, but I'm kind of young enough, but just experienced enough to see that, like,

01:18:22Guest:you know, the older crowd kind of reacting to the younger crowd and the younger comics and this new technology and all that.

01:18:31Guest:So I just wondered if there's a way, is it just the fate of all comics to grow up and hate everything new, every new comic?

01:18:36Marc:No, no, I don't have any hate for them.

01:18:38Guest:Oh, I don't even mean you.

01:18:39Marc:But I don't notice that really.

01:18:41Marc:You know,

01:18:42Marc:You can't stop age.

01:18:43Marc:And, you know, the fact that, you know, somehow or another I have an audience and found my audience when I was in my 40s is a miracle.

01:18:50Marc:And I don't know what it is.

01:18:51Marc:I think it's just I have a type of neuroticism or anger or sensitivity.

01:18:55Marc:And honesty.

01:18:57Marc:And honesty that's relatively timeless to certain people.

01:19:00Marc:Wow.

01:19:00Marc:So I'm grateful that I'm still relevant to an audience and that it happened late in life.

01:19:07Marc:But there's a lot of guys my age that let themselves go.

01:19:09Marc:They don't continue writing or they just fall to the wayside and they don't understand why they don't fit in anymore.

01:19:15Marc:And that's just – it's the nature of the business.

01:19:17Marc:The only old guys that are working are guys that were fucking huge –

01:19:21Marc:Or, you know, or have their own followings.

01:19:24Marc:There's like hundreds of comics that were popular in the 70s, 80s, and 90s that do not fit in anymore.

01:19:31Marc:And it's not because of TikTok.

01:19:34Marc:You know what I mean?

01:19:35Guest:It's just they aged out, man.

01:19:37Guest:What are you going to do?

01:19:38Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:19:39Guest:And isn't it so interesting that the legend, Steve Martin, the great legend, he, by his own account, I don't even necessarily agree with him, but by his own account, he said he could see it.

01:19:51Guest:Of course.

01:19:52Guest:He could see it aging out.

01:19:52Guest:And so he stopped.

01:19:54Guest:And became an actor.

01:19:55Guest:Yeah.

01:19:55Guest:But what, you know, what self-awareness, not, not that I even agree with his assessment, you know, that he couldn't have evolved or that, you know, but, but he, that's how much.

01:20:06Marc:He was done with life.

01:20:07Marc:Like he was, he felt misunderstood.

01:20:09Marc:It's like a, you know, it's like a band that's counter-cultural and all of a sudden you got frat boys coming.

01:20:13Marc:Sure.

01:20:14Marc:Like the expectations were peculiar.

01:20:15Marc:But now he's back on stage.

01:20:16Marc:He's doing something with Martin Short.

01:20:18Marc:Now he is.

01:20:18Marc:And he does Waiting for Godot and all this stuff.

01:20:21Marc:But I just mean at that time, the biggest comic in the world.

01:20:24Marc:Well, I mean, to have that kind of confidence and knowledge about your own talent and your own limitations is rare.

01:20:31Marc:And also to roll the dice on that, to take what was your livelihood.

01:20:35Marc:But, you know, he was popular enough to take those chances.

01:20:38Marc:Not everyone is afforded that.

01:20:41Guest:No, of course, of course.

01:20:42Guest:No, I just find it interesting that the idea of culturally through no one's fault, just, it just, you're not fit with the times anymore, you know, whatever it is.

01:20:52Marc:No, I mean, I see it in myself to some degree.

01:20:55Marc:And, you know, in light of our conversation here, like, I don't want you to misunderstand me.

01:20:59Marc:I don't have anything against comics.

01:21:01Guest:No, no, I don't think so.

01:21:02Guest:And I don't judge.

01:21:04Guest:I was asking this question, you more as an old person.

01:21:08Marc:I'm talking about later.

01:21:09Marc:Oh, yes.

01:21:09Marc:About earlier.

01:21:10Marc:It's just like, you know, when I'm judging or I just feel, you know, in relation to that conversation, so I can at least be clear for myself, is that, look, I have nothing but utmost respect for almost anybody that does this job and does it successfully.

01:21:24Marc:But there are lines being drawn and I have to react to them.

01:21:27Marc:Sure.

01:21:27Marc:You know, and it's not personal.

01:21:28Marc:Sure.

01:21:28Marc:Maybe with a couple of people, but that doesn't mean I don't respect their process.

01:21:32Marc:Sure, sure.

01:21:34Marc:I can get behind that.

01:21:36Marc:But the aging is like, I feel it in myself.

01:21:38Marc:It's like, look.

01:21:41Marc:Also, I think you've earned the right to do that, by the way.

01:21:44Guest:Yeah, to some degree.

01:21:44Guest:I'll say it for you so you don't have to.

01:21:46Guest:I think you have earned the right.

01:21:47Marc:Well, I appreciate it.

01:21:47Marc:But, like, I know, like, you know, I—

01:21:50Marc:between me and me like I see where my ceiling is in terms of like I do okay I was you know fortunate to do my fifth or sixth special whatever the fuck it is and it's on HBO and it's fine and it's good it's the best work I've done but there is part of me at age 59 where I'm like you know I've kind of done everything that I put a lot out there I've said my piece so like I find myself starting to try to find some peace with changing my expectation sure

01:22:19Marc:as you should and that's all that's that's all legit yeah yeah that's natural it doesn't mean like healthy by the way that's healthy it's not like i'm aged out i'm no longer relevant anymore but it's like dude like you know you want to have a little try to figure out how to enjoy whatever life you've earned here and you know take it try to be less hard on yourself of course because like i do it every time like every fucking hour that i produce takes a year and a half two years and you don't even think like every time you start you're like i don't even know if i got it

01:22:46Marc:Yes.

01:22:48Marc:You know, because especially if you work like us, because it's not like you got a bunch on the docket.

01:22:53Marc:Yes.

01:22:53Marc:It's just sort of like I got to start at this thing again.

01:22:56Guest:Yes, yes, yes, yes.

01:22:57Marc:And I don't know what's going to happen.

01:22:58Marc:Yes, yes.

01:22:59Marc:It's wild.

01:22:59Guest:It is wild.

01:23:00Marc:Yeah, 100%.

01:23:01Marc:But it's not something I do for business.

01:23:03Marc:It's just something I do.

01:23:04Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:23:05Guest:But isn't that good that you can work at your own pace?

01:23:09Guest:Yes.

01:23:09Guest:You know what I mean?

01:23:10Guest:You're not pressured to fit the media's press schedule of one year or whatever.

01:23:15Guest:You can take two years to do a special.

01:23:17Marc:Of course.

01:23:17Marc:But I've always worked at my own pace, but it doesn't mean it's not wrong.

01:23:20Marc:I'm not hard on myself.

01:23:22Marc:Yes, yes, yes, yes.

01:23:23Marc:You know, sometimes it's like it's better to have a deadline that's limiting than sort of like, fuck, if I don't do this, I'm going to disappear.

01:23:31Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:23:32Guest:I guess, no, yeah, 100%.

01:23:34Guest:Everything you said sounds perfectly fine.

01:23:36Guest:Legit, I agree with it.

01:23:37Marc:So where are you at with what are you doing out here now?

01:23:39Guest:What's this new movie?

01:23:40Guest:I didn't watch it.

01:23:41Guest:Don't worry about it.

01:23:42Guest:Megan.

01:23:42Guest:Don't worry about it.

01:23:43Guest:I just did this movie.

01:23:44Guest:It went pretty well.

01:23:45Guest:You got a big part?

01:23:47Guest:Reasonably big part.

01:23:48Guest:Probably my biggest part in a movie.

01:23:49Guest:It's popular, though.

01:23:50Guest:People like it, right?

01:23:51Guest:Yeah, people got behind it.

01:23:52Guest:I'm really happy.

01:23:53Guest:It's an indie film.

01:23:56Guest:We did it in New Zealand.

01:23:58Guest:You would love the director, tortured artist, brilliant.

01:24:00Guest:It's a horror movie.

01:24:02Guest:It's a horror movie, but it's satirical.

01:24:03Guest:It's more of a dark comedy.

01:24:05Marc:Oh, really?

01:24:06Marc:Yeah, it's more of a dark comedy.

01:24:08Marc:When I talked to the guy from The Legend of the Ten Rings,

01:24:12Marc:Oh, Simu?

01:24:13Marc:Yeah.

01:24:13Guest:Oh, you did?

01:24:14Marc:Yeah, it was great.

01:24:14Guest:Oh, he was here, right?

01:24:15Marc:Yeah.

01:24:16Marc:I know you spoke to Jimmy O. Yang.

01:24:17Marc:He's my guy.

01:24:18Marc:Well, Yang I talked to a long time ago.

01:24:19Marc:Yang's a great character.

01:24:21Guest:He's a character.

01:24:22Guest:Yeah, he's super fun.

01:24:23Guest:And he and I, I love Simu.

01:24:25Guest:I love Jimmy.

01:24:27Guest:Jimmy is interesting because he came from Hong Kong when he was 13 to America without speaking any English.

01:24:34Guest:And so he actually came to America very late.

01:24:37Guest:But he assimilated very quickly.

01:24:39Guest:Whereas me, I came from Singapore and I already probably have more English and Americanisms than Jimmy.

01:24:47Guest:But we've gone in two separate ways in that.

01:24:50Guest:I feel like for me, I'm more trying to not become American but comment on America.

01:24:56Guest:And he's like...

01:24:57Guest:driving jeeps i'm gonna yeah it's funny though it's a funny thing about him but he's like i'm doing it yeah he's super american yeah yeah in a cool way yeah in a fun way yeah he's got a very specific point of view i like that guy how's he doing you talk to him yeah i'm working with him right now i'm that's what i'm in la for i'm filming uh i'm filming a tv show for hulu uh taika is directing it so uh that's been cool and what is that

01:25:21Guest:It's called Interior Chinatown.

01:25:22Guest:It's based on a book.

01:25:23Guest:I think you would like the book.

01:25:24Guest:It's by Charles Yee, probably the smartest writer in Hollywood.

01:25:28Guest:He wrote this book.

01:25:29Guest:It's a very meta story about background characters in a SVU-type show, Law & Order-type show.

01:25:37Guest:And so we're the background characters, and we don't know we're in a TV show.

01:25:41Guest:We're just in it, and the characters keep questioning how come we're the background Asians, and we're always doing...

01:25:49Guest:And then the main characters are always given the spotlight, but we're always in the back doing dumb shit.

01:25:55Marc:So in the background, there's white guys doing things?

01:25:59Guest:No, no.

01:25:59Guest:In the foreground, it's the... In the foreground.

01:26:01Marc:That's what I mean.

01:26:02Guest:It's the show.

01:26:02Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:26:03Guest:Sorry.

01:26:03Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:26:04Guest:It's Law & Order type show.

01:26:06Guest:And then we're the extras in the back, but we don't know we're in a show.

01:26:09Guest:We're just like, why are we...

01:26:12Guest:It's clever.

01:26:14Guest:It's very clever and very difficult to execute if you can imagine.

01:26:17Guest:And Taika's directing it?

01:26:18Guest:Taika's directing the pilot.

01:26:19Marc:The pilot, yeah.

01:26:20Marc:He's doing great shit.

01:26:21Marc:I love that reservation dogs.

01:26:23Marc:And I was fortunate enough to get cast on an episode of that.

01:26:26Marc:I love Sterling and

01:26:27Marc:what Taika's doing.

01:26:28Marc:I've never met Taika, and we've not talked.

01:26:31Marc:I imagine he knows who I am.

01:26:32Guest:He came from stand-up comedy, too, in New Zealand, so he knows life.

01:26:36Marc:Yeah, I think he's great.

01:26:37Marc:Yeah, and I've kind of, like, hinted at trying to get him, but I can't get him in here.

01:26:41Marc:I don't know what the hell he's doing.

01:26:42Guest:Sure, I'll mention it.

01:26:43Guest:Yeah, tell him you came on.

01:26:44Guest:I'll be like, hey, Mark.

01:26:45Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, just did Mark's show.

01:26:47Guest:I'll just mention it.

01:26:47Marc:You have to bully him a little bit.

01:26:49Marc:It's great talking to you, pal.

01:26:50Guest:No, thanks so much for having me.

01:26:51Guest:It's real, you know, this is a real honor.

01:26:54Guest:You're very well respected and I appreciate you liking what I'm putting out there.

01:26:59Guest:You know, I think when you do stand-up comedy, what you really want is you just want people in the room to laugh and you also want your peers to think you're okay.

01:27:11Guest:So you're the ultimate comedy peer.

01:27:13Guest:Well, thank you.

01:27:14Guest:Thank you for...

01:27:14Marc:And I think you're doing great work.

01:27:16Marc:And also, we want to blow minds.

01:27:18Marc:We want to blow minds, don't we?

01:27:19Marc:Yes, we do.

01:27:20Guest:Trying to blow some minds.

01:27:21Marc:Thanks, pal.

01:27:27Marc:Thanks.

01:27:28Marc:Okay, there you go.

01:27:28Marc:Intense guy, right?

01:27:30Marc:The History of the World Part II is now streaming on Hulu, and Megan is streaming on Peacock.

01:27:34Marc:You can watch Ronnie's two stand-up specials, Speak Easy and Asian Comedian Destroys America, on Netflix.

01:27:40Marc:Hang out for a second.

01:27:42Marc:Will ya?

01:27:45Marc:As I mentioned earlier, if you want to be up to speed when we have director Jason Wollner on the show next week, go watch Paul T. Goldman on Peacock.

01:27:53Marc:Tomorrow on The Full Marin, we'll be doing an Oscar special, not really predictions about the Oscars, but more about what exactly are the Oscars.

01:28:00Marc:And then we've also got something planned for you this Friday around the Oscars.

01:28:03Marc:If you want to sign up for the full Marin, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF+.

01:28:11Marc:You'll get weekly bonus episodes plus access to every episode of WTF ad-free.

01:28:16Marc:On Thursday, I talk with director Bobby Farrelly about Boston and all the movies he made with his brother and his new movie with Woody Harrelson, Champions.

01:28:23Marc:I just did some basic punk rock because I was working on a lick, but I don't have time.

01:28:32Marc:I didn't have time.

01:28:33Marc:You know, sometimes I spend, you know, like an hour on those fucking licks.

01:28:39Marc:They don't just come out of me.

01:28:40Marc:For those of you who don't think I'm a skilled guitar player, I work on those sloppy fucking riffs.

01:28:47Marc:Okay, here we go.

01:28:59Okay.

01:29:45Thank you.

01:31:12Marc:Boomer lives.

01:31:21Marc:Monkey and LaFonda, cat angels everywhere.

01:31:23Marc:Sorry, I had to go basic.