Episode 1411 - Michelle Yeoh
Marc:Lock the gates!
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck, buddies?
Marc:What the fuck, Nicks?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:How are you?
Marc:Are you okay?
Marc:I'm all right.
Marc:I got, you know, I got crowd updates.
Marc:I got some other updates.
Marc:But, like, right out of the gate here, I don't want to waste much time.
Marc:I want to tell you that Michelle Yeoh is here on the show.
Marc:And it's an amazing conversation.
Marc:It's just... I was so...
Marc:honored and excited to talk to her.
Marc:And it's just, she was just amazing.
Marc:I mean, I can't, I can't, I don't even, I don't even know if I can explain it.
Marc:She's just one of these people.
Marc:She sat down, she had just gotten out of a, some sort of a,
Marc:Banquet situation or a luncheon, an academy luncheon.
Marc:She was dressed up.
Marc:She looked stunning.
Marc:And she's just a dynamo.
Marc:I mean, she's just one of these people who is in full command of her instrument, of all of it.
Marc:That means her fists when she's fighting or her legs when she's dancing or her charm when she's talking.
Marc:And it was just a thrill and a pleasure to talk to her.
Marc:So look forward to that.
Marc:That is coming in minutes.
Marc:But before I get too far off track, I need to address the death of Richard Belzer.
Marc:Now, Richard Belzer is one of the all-time great Richard Belzers.
Marc:He's an actor.
Marc:Some of you know him from Law & Order, Munch.
Marc:I never watched that, but I knew Belzer's a comic, and I knew Belzer's a decent guy.
Marc:I knew Belzer's a guy that looked out for me, and I knew Belzer's a guy who was always caring and nice.
Marc:And I don't know how many people know that about him, but you can sort of assume it.
Marc:But look, when I was a kid, I don't remember seeing Bells maybe once on a TV show.
Marc:But I remember reading an article, maybe in Rolling Stone or Cream, about this crazy sort of balls-to-the-wall, edgy comedian who used to just rip it up as house emcee at Catch Rising Star.
Marc:It was his whole profile of Bells, you know, about the drugs, about the insanity.
Marc:I mean, he was there early on at the peak of Catch in the 70s.
Marc:And I read that article and it never went away.
Marc:But he was never that easy to find as a stand-up because he always held this place.
Marc:He had a talk show, I think, for a little while.
Marc:He famously got dropped by that wrestler on his head and sued the guy.
Marc:That footage is disturbing to watch.
Marc:But I just knew Bells as this guy that was there at the peak of a certain time in comedy.
Marc:He does not get the respect he deserves as a comic.
Marc:But I was always sort of mildly obsessed with him.
Marc:And then when I came out to L.A.
Marc:and I was a doorman at the comedy store, Bells was around.
Marc:He was living out here and he was coming to the store.
Marc:And I was out of my mind on drugs.
Marc:And I was always at the store.
Marc:And Bells would drive up in his fucking El Dorado.
Marc:And he always wore a suit.
Marc:And he always was asking about me, asking how I was doing, laughing, having some time out in the parking lot, you know, where we were talking.
Marc:Always nice to me, always seemed to care.
Marc:And I love the guy.
Marc:I just saw him as one of, I don't use the word spirit animal, but one of my favorites.
Marc:foundation block somehow.
Marc:And he was just so funny to watch because he was so bells, man.
Marc:He was the bells.
Marc:Come on, man.
Marc:Richard Belzer, man.
Marc:And there's before weed was like legal and he used to have this pot.
Marc:He always had really good weed and he called it the hammer.
Marc:And if he wanted to ask you if he wanted to smoke, he'd just motion with his hand like he was lightly tapping a hammer.
Marc:And be like, yeah, man.
Marc:And just driving around in that Eldorado with bells, that was the fucking best.
Marc:I used to watch him all the time, just kind of riff it out and be his goofy self.
Marc:But just a class act and a great guy.
Marc:And I just loved the guy.
Marc:And I haven't seen him in years.
Marc:We never had him on the show.
Marc:It was always, I don't know, it just didn't happen.
Marc:He was in France usually.
Marc:And it just never was convenient.
Marc:But he's very special to me, that guy.
Marc:And I guess he was 78.
Marc:He had some health problems.
Marc:And it's a pretty good run for a guy who lived hard when he was younger.
Marc:And I got a good story for you.
Marc:I've probably told it here before, but it's one of my favorite stories.
Marc:After I left Los Angeles and went back to Boston to start over again, we were working at, I was working at Catch a Rising Star.
Marc:I was sort of bitter already and angry, and I didn't know where I was going.
Marc:I had just sobered up, and I was trying to stay sober.
Marc:And
Marc:And I just remember I was down at Catch a Rising Star in Boston and Jimmy Miller was in town.
Marc:Jimmy Miller is Dennis's brother, who's a big manager now.
Marc:And he managed, I believe he managed, or Messina Baker Miller managed Janine Garofalo at the time.
Marc:So he was out and hanging out with her.
Marc:And I remember it was after the show and we wanted to go out somewhere.
Marc:Jimmy wanted to go out.
Marc:So me and Janine and Jimmy Miller...
Marc:uh, get into my car.
Marc:I don't know if we went to a club.
Marc:I feel like we went to a club.
Marc:I'm not really a club guy, but I feel like Jimmy wanted to go to a club.
Marc:So we're just driving and I'm like, you know, kind of like, you know, dude, man, I don't know what's going on.
Marc:I'm trying to get, I'm trying to fucking break through.
Marc:I'm telling Jimmy, I'm like, you know, I'm just trying to find my voice.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Like, I don't know if I have it or if I'm going to get my voice.
Marc:I don't know how you find your voice.
Marc:And he's sitting in the back and I go, so like your brother, your brother figured it out.
Marc:How'd he find his voice?
Marc:And
Marc:And from the back of the car, I just hear Jimmy Miller go, he's doing Belzer.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right, babe.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's it, babe.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He's doing Belzer.
Marc:Dennis Miller, he's doing fucking Belzer.
Marc:I loved it.
Marc:But Rich, seriously, man, sweetest guy in the world and just a great influence on my life.
Marc:You know, a real survivor dude, but so cool.
Marc:And in my days of insanity, he kind of leveled me off.
Marc:And I always loved seeing him.
Marc:And I'm sad he's gone, but he had a great life.
Marc:And I'm going to miss him.
Marc:I'm going to think about him.
Marc:You know, there's guys I think about.
Marc:I think about Saget.
Marc:I think about Bells.
Marc:There's a continuity there.
Marc:Those are two of the sweetest fucking guys that I've ever met in this business.
Marc:They certainly missed.
Marc:Man, I'm just going to think about it a lot.
Marc:So...
Marc:Look, I told you I was making that kraut.
Marc:The recipe I was using said five days.
Marc:So it's still crunchy.
Marc:And it was weird.
Marc:I was watching it.
Marc:I was nervous about it.
Marc:I bought the crock, the ceramic crock, the weights, the lid.
Marc:I salted the cabbage.
Marc:I put it in there, waited for the brine to rise.
Marc:It did.
Marc:And I took it out.
Marc:I took it out yesterday, and it's fucking awesome.
Marc:It came out beautiful.
Marc:I mean, on some level, you got to think, like, how can you fuck something up that has two ingredients?
Marc:I'd never done it before, and fermenting seemed a little intense, but I just let it do its thing, and it's so tasty.
Marc:And now, like, it's opened up this whole world of fermenting.
Marc:I don't know if that's the next phase of my life.
Marc:I don't know if I'm going to purchase another crock or two and start rotating different fermenting things.
Marc:I don't know if I'm going to get into pickles or kimchi.
Marc:I don't know what I'm going to do.
Marc:But I do know that I can make kraut now.
Marc:And I do know that that's fucking exciting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's been like I'm just starting to come down from all the press and all the excitement around my HBO special.
Marc:And I got to be honest with you.
Marc:I was just having these feelings.
Marc:I was having these feelings yesterday where I don't know what it is about this one or about what's happening now, but I feel, I think I feel kind of like I landed somehow, like I'm grounded somehow, like this is the best work I've ever done somehow.
Marc:Like I feel like I finally arrived as a standup after 35, 40 years, whatever the hell it is, because the special is hitting with people.
Marc:But not just people, my peers.
Marc:And that's a big difference, man.
Marc:You know, I've got... Comics are telling me they love it.
Marc:Comics are just intentionally DMing me and emailing me to tell me how great the special is.
Marc:And I don't know if I ever really felt that before.
Marc:And I don't know if it's because the profile of HBO really kind of put it out there in a different way.
Marc:I can't fell about my own special anymore without annoying people.
Marc:But it does...
Marc:I feel like the last two have been the best work I've ever done, but this one felt somehow different.
Marc:And I feel that after years of doing this podcast, after years of being a comic, after years of however people know me, because there was a period in time where I was doing the podcast and my biggest fear was like, well, I'm not going to be seen as a comic.
Marc:I'm going to be seen as a podcaster.
Marc:And it really fucked with me.
Marc:For a few years, you know, that people didn't really know me as a comic, but the podcast was going well.
Marc:And I just I grew to learn to accept it because I was learning how to do this and it was finding some success.
Marc:But, you know, in my heart, I'm a comic.
Marc:And that's what I set out to do.
Marc:Comics I love.
Marc:Sent me emails and texts to say how much they like the special.
Marc:Comics I respect.
Marc:A lot of them.
Marc:Peers.
Marc:And that means a lot.
Marc:And it was overwhelming in terms of it being, you know, just being touching.
Marc:And it made me feel like it must be all right.
Marc:Because, look, I'm a comic.
Marc:You're not going to reach out or say anything if you didn't like it or if you didn't see it.
Marc:you know, it means something.
Marc:These women and men who are in my profession are not, you know, just running around giving, you know, empty compliments.
Marc:It's really not our nature.
Marc:So I just feel like I did something special with the special and it feels like a special.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But again, thank you for all of your words of encouragement and support and that you liked it, man.
Marc:I watched Nate's special.
Marc:Nate Bargatze, who used to open for me, who I saw at the Grand Rapids Comedy Festival when he was, you know, no one knew who he was.
Marc:And I watched him like three times in one night.
Marc:I'm like, who is this guy?
Marc:Made me laugh every time.
Marc:He's got a new special out.
Marc:I think it's called Hello World.
Marc:Is that what it is?
Marc:But his special is clean.
Marc:It's, but it's more personal than usual for him.
Marc:And he has a take on,
Marc:on being the firstborn and a take on Christianity that I thought was so unique.
Marc:Well, he does this whole bit about this sort of variation of Christianity and how it changes over time within his family.
Marc:And I thought it was spectacular.
Marc:We couldn't be more opposite in our approaches, but certainly to Christianity.
Marc:But I, you know, the guy kills me, makes me laugh.
Marc:And I think he likes me, too.
Marc:OK, look, guys, gals, Michelle Yeoh.
Marc:This was like, I was nervous because she's, you know, a force.
Marc:And she's amazing.
Marc:And so I was a little nervous.
Marc:And she looked so great.
Marc:She was all dressed up from this Oscar luncheon.
Marc:And obviously the movie Everything Everywhere All at Once.
Marc:You can watch actually now on Showtime.
Marc:She's nominated for Best Actress at this year's Academy Awards.
Marc:And I had an amazing time talking to her.
Marc:So wait, so you were just at an Oscar luncheon.
Guest:This is the one where they take the class photo.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:And all the nominees are there.
Guest:The first time I went, I didn't know what was happening.
Guest:I didn't even know about it until two days ago.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Did they forget to tell you?
Guest:No, the schedule has been so packed.
Guest:I came from London because I'm filming there at the moment.
Guest:So you really don't know what's going on.
Guest:You just see these lines and lines of things that you have to go to.
Guest:And then I go, oh, Oscar lunch.
Guest:Okay, lunch, right?
Guest:It's just a lunch.
Guest:And then they go, no, this is where you get your class photo.
Guest:And then I go, what class?
Guest:I'm such an idiot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So every nominee gets on stage, all grouped up into one big happy family, and they take photos.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Well, you look great.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:I like all the, are those rhinestones?
Marc:What are they?
Guest:They're like little pearls and rhinestones.
Marc:Oh, it's very fancy.
Guest:It's a formal lunch.
Marc:It is.
Marc:So at least you brought the right clothes.
Guest:I dressed up for you, okay?
Yeah.
Marc:So you just have all these things to do, and someone just manages you, takes you around, the publicist for the studio or whatever?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:This is the first time I'm understanding how it's done, and there is a way to do it.
Guest:You need a publicist that tells you who are the ones.
Guest:You must go be interviewed.
Guest:Do the podcast with Mark.
Guest:No, seriously.
Guest:I was like, are you kidding me?
Guest:Not that guy.
Guest:Where is it?
Guest:At his house?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Far away.
Guest:So they will tell you this is what you need to do.
Guest:These are the interviews, whether it's cover shoots or all those kind of things.
Marc:Did you just get here today?
Guest:I got here last Wednesday night.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:So it's been like Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Today, after you, I'll go to the airport.
Marc:That's it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then back to London.
Guest:Back to London.
Guest:And then because it's BAFTA this weekend.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I'm filming Wicked.
Marc:What is that?
Guest:That's the musical, Wicked.
Guest:Oh, you are?
Marc:You're in the, it's the witch one.
Guest:Yes, that's the one.
Marc:Yeah, is that fun?
Guest:Oh, my God, it's so fun.
Guest:It's John Chu directing Crazy Rich Asians.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So we've worked together.
Marc:Oh, so you know each other.
Marc:Are you singing?
Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Oh, that's great.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It's always been a wish of mine.
Guest:Now it's come true and I'm like, oh my God, what did I wish for?
Marc:Have you never sung on camera before?
Guest:Not on camera.
Marc:No?
Guest:No, no.
Marc:Can you do it?
Guest:I'm trying.
Guest:That would be fun, right?
Guest:Of course.
Marc:It's almost better in musicals if you're not a professional singer, because then your personality comes out.
Guest:And I think this character, that's what is required, because the singers are Ari, Ariana Grande, and Cynthia Irivo.
Guest:So when you walk onto the set, and it's big and huge and spectacular, and suddenly you hear...
Marc:He's like, he killed singing.
Marc:Isn't it crazy when somebody who, like Ariana... Oh, gosh.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:She's so tiny.
Guest:The two of them are so tiny.
Marc:It's like, it always gets me.
Marc:When people can really, like, just effortlessly sing beautifully, it makes me cry immediately.
Guest:That's...
Guest:No, but it's true, right?
Guest:I don't even know why.
Guest:It just touches your soul right away.
Guest:It doesn't need to be a language, you understand.
Guest:I know.
Guest:But those sounds just, like, reach in and embrace you or something.
Marc:Every time.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:If I watch a musical.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I worked with Jennifer Hudson once on a movie.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:And she just came to an event.
Marc:Like, it was a cast party.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And she sang.
Marc:And she sang.
Marc:And it was like, oh, my God.
Oh.
Marc:And you just realize, I don't know, I'm always amazed by that.
Marc:Even when I used to interview people and they would sing if they were musicians.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And just that that's their profession.
Marc:That's their art.
Marc:And it's so second nature for them to just do it beautifully.
Marc:And when someone like me watches it, I'm like, oh, my God.
Marc:What just happened?
Marc:Magic?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think it is.
Guest:And I love it when they are singing because they love to sing.
Guest:You know, it doesn't matter whether in the karaoke room or whatever it is.
Guest:They just sing with such joy.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It's so beautiful to watch.
Marc:And I'm terrified of it.
Marc:I'm terrified of singing.
Marc:Of singing?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You have so many guitars all over the place.
Marc:I know, but I can play.
Marc:I don't mind playing guitar.
Marc:You don't sing with it?
Marc:No, I do.
Marc:But it took me a long time to feel comfortable doing it in public, in front of people.
Guest:Because?
Guest:It's too vulnerable.
Guest:You feel your voice?
Marc:It feels very vulnerable.
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:And I'm also like, you know, I had a bad experience.
Marc:You're shy.
Marc:Secretly shy.
Guest:Yeah, the bad experience.
Marc:Around singing.
Marc:Well, yeah, I had a bad experience singing once in front of people.
Marc:I couldn't get the key right, and I just kept trying, and it was very... Oh, no, that's traumatizing.
Marc:It totally traumatized me.
Guest:I wouldn't like that.
Marc:It's terrible, and it scarred me forever.
Marc:It happened at a summer camp when I was like 15.
Guest:Oh, that's even worse.
Marc:Yeah, it took years for me to get over it.
Guest:Oh, and teenagers are brutal.
Marc:I think I was more brutal on myself than anyone else was going to be.
Marc:I'm sure.
Marc:Because it was like a music camp, so I guess there was... Everybody was singing.
Marc:Oh, yeah, exactly.
Marc:It's terrible.
Guest:Creating music.
Marc:Yes, yes.
Guest:But you didn't lose your love for it?
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:I love to play, but I have been singing lately, and I've gotten past the fear of it.
Guest:Oh, good.
Marc:I don't know if I would break out into song for you right now.
Marc:If you're like, could you sing me a song?
Marc:I don't think I would do it.
Guest:No?
Marc:No, it'd make me nervous.
Guest:Why?
Guest:I'm a good listener.
Yeah.
Marc:I'm not here to sing, Michelle.
Guest:Why not?
Guest:Singing is joy.
Guest:It is.
Guest:It's true.
Marc:But, you know, I watched Crazy Rich Asians, like, on the airplane yesterday.
Guest:Where did you come back from?
Marc:New York.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:It's on there.
Marc:It's on American.
Marc:It was a deep, complex bit of acting.
Marc:I mean, like, and you really showed up and did it.
Marc:I mean, it was certainly not a comedic part.
Guest:No.
Marc:In the midst of all this sort of lightness.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But there was a weight to it that was almost menacing.
Guest:But it was necessary.
Marc:Of course, yes.
Guest:Because you are trying to tell this girl, you're not trying to say that because she comes from a poor background, she doesn't fit in or anything like that.
Guest:She's actually giving her strong advice because you come from, even though you're Chinese, but you haven't been brought up in the way that you would be in Asia.
Guest:And it's very different.
Guest:And she's trying to tell her with kindness.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, are you sure you're ready for this?
Marc:Was it with kindness?
Marc:But not really.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And that's the funny thing that you had to play was this weird politeness.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Mixed with this horrendous, you know, controlling.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But you could see because it's true.
Guest:It's the same with John.
Guest:It's with John Chu again.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And I remember when I because Kevin Kwan wrote a trilogy of these books.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Crazy Rich Asians.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they're fun books to read.
Guest:These characters are larger than life.
Guest:You can laugh at them.
Guest:You laugh with them and all those kind of things.
Guest:And yes, we do have these very interesting individuals running around.
Guest:But then what is so I asked John.
Guest:When I received the script, I was like,
Guest:I can't play this mother because she's just downright mean.
Guest:She's just mean for no reason.
Guest:She was just like horrible.
Guest:I mean, the only saving factor was, you know, when she bought the hotel, when they were sort of like turned away just because you were Chinese, you should go to Chinatown and all that.
Guest:So she turned around like, guess what?
Guest:I love that.
Guest:That for me is like, yes, empowering.
Guest:Justice.
Guest:Right.
Yeah.
Guest:Then the rest of the script was more about the bachelor party and the mean girls not treating her right and all those kind of things.
Guest:That was that.
Guest:And I said, what do you want...
Guest:What is this character?
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:So what are you saying?
Guest:But then because I, when a script comes to me, I first read it.
Guest:If I don't respond to it, I want to know who the director is.
Guest:Because I believe that the director is the visionary.
Guest:He's the soul.
Guest:He's the one that will bring the words to life.
Guest:And I had seen some of his work.
Guest:And one of the works that I really liked was the documentary he did on Justin Bieber.
Guest:And I thought for the first time I see this Justin Bieber who is a very lonely soul.
Guest:You saw a different side of it.
Guest:And it's hard because you hear all these things about him and all these whatever.
Guest:And I love that John Chu was able to shine a light on that and make us feel, come on guys, cut him some slack.
Guest:Take a step back.
Guest:And I appreciate that very, very much.
Guest:It could have been a very slick conversation.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:So I asked him, what is the tone of your movie?
Guest:What kind of film are you trying to do with Crazy Rich Asians?
Guest:If it's like the books, which is very commercial, you know, like, let's just go out there, fireworks, you know, flashy clothes and things like this.
Guest:And then it could be like a hangover too.
Guest:Yeah, of course, yeah.
Guest:That kind of, let's just be roundgy and have a wild time.
Marc:And you've got Ken Jeong in there, so he's ready to go.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Guest:Everybody, you know, Awkwafina, Ken Jeong, you know.
Guest:And then he said, if I did that, my mom would kill me.
Guest:And I go, oh, okay.
Guest:Now I'm beginning to hear.
Guest:Because it's very important, the mother and son story.
Marc:Well, that was what it was all about at the end, right?
Guest:At the end.
Guest:Because that's the balance.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Right?
Guest:Otherwise, it's like, why would the son come home?
Guest:To what?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:If the mother was just mean.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Never cared about him.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right?
Guest:So you had to, and the mother and son really had that one scene together.
Guest:But when he was changing his shirt.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And when you had to see the love and respect between the two of them.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And with that, you know, so we added on a lot more.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:John, together with Adele Lim, who was the writer.
Guest:And we had brilliant producers, Nina Jacobson and John Panotti.
Guest:But they understood that they didn't understand the Chinese culture.
Guest:And they shouldn't be the ones who said, oh, well, you should do it this way.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right?
Guest:So they really gave us a lot of respect and heard and listened to us.
Marc:Well, how did you grow up?
Guest:I grew up in Malaysia, and so I come from a very multiracial society.
Guest:So no understanding what it is to be Chinese from that part of the world, where family comes first.
Guest:There's no way around that.
Guest:What's Malaysia like in terms of- Malaysia is like a tropical country, so very multiracial.
Guest:We have the mountains, we have the seas, there's a place to visit.
Marc:But your family is ancestrally Chinese?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:So we, I would be third generation.
Marc:Malaysian.
Guest:Malaysian.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:So my grandparents, they came from China.
Marc:Do you know why?
Guest:I think it was the same reason.
Guest:Everyone?
Marc:A lot of people left.
Guest:Things were getting bad.
Guest:Thinking that there would be a better life.
Guest:Why do you leave a home or a country, right?
Guest:You must be feeling, I need to do this because it was war.
Guest:It was so many things happening.
Guest:Gets dangerous.
Marc:Or sometimes you just want to get away from your parents.
Guest:I think that was not the case.
Guest:I think for them, it must have been not so good in the country.
Marc:Was it around the time of the revolution, I imagine?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:So did you grow up knowing about that?
Guest:No.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Guest:Because by the time, you know, they were fairly old when they came.
Guest:I was very young when I met my great-grandmother.
Guest:She still had those spine feet.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:And I vaguely remember that she had this mother of pearl, you know, those four poster beds.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And this old lady that's just like always curled up on the bed.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:Because she can't really walk, right?
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Because those bound feet are just not made for walking.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so she would always sit in this bed.
Marc:And her feet were just mangled.
Yes.
Marc:And then like, oh my God.
Marc:So you got two, the two totally different sides of old Chinese culture from what you came from, right?
Marc:So now when you were growing up, did you do acting?
Marc:No.
Marc:No acting?
Marc:No.
Guest:I was in the world of ballet and dance and sports.
Guest:So you're a dancer.
Guest:I was a little ballerina.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Dreams of being a little ballerina.
Marc:But you were, you were good.
Yeah.
Guest:No.
Guest:You know, we will never fit the type.
Guest:I mean, we are just, we look wrong.
Guest:Who?
Guest:Who's we?
Guest:Like the Asian girls.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:At that time, if you go to, because I went on to study in England.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I was thinking more like a teacher.
Guest:I would have my own school, you know, then I would teach ballet.
Marc:But that was the dream, though.
Marc:The dream must have ended up.
Marc:Be a dancer.
Guest:I performed when I was back in Malaysia.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But once you get to London, where I was in Chester, you realize very quickly you will never fit into the corps de ballet, you know?
Marc:Oh, because it's classical and it wasn't about inclusion then.
Guest:No.
Exactly.
Marc:There was no inclusion.
Marc:Then why'd they even let you in?
Guest:Oh, no, because they offered both things.
Guest:They offered you as a dancer.
Guest:And then because it was a ballet school, you could join it.
Guest:But it doesn't mean that you will automatically be able to because they are quite brutal.
Guest:At a very young age, they will actually tell you, you will never make it as a dancer.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Because you will be too tall.
Guest:Your bones will grow out.
Guest:But you didn't get that.
Guest:I was just wrong.
Marc:Because you were in Malaysia.
Marc:But you were not told that.
Marc:You were encouraged.
Guest:No, not in Malaysia.
Guest:They encouraged you to dance.
Marc:Were your parents supportive?
Guest:Oh, my mom and dad.
Guest:My mom loves the world of cinema.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:She was the one who brought us to the cinema all the time.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah, every week.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Every day if she could.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what'd your dad do?
Guest:He's a lawyer.
Guest:He was a lawyer.
Marc:So this was a fairly liberal household in terms of expectation.
Guest:In that way, my dad was always very good in the sense that, you know, he always said, my duty to you, education.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But what you want to do with your life, you figure it out.
Marc:Oh, that's, well, that's very nice.
Guest:I mean, for an Asian family, for a Chinese family, you know, he never said to my brother and myself, oh, you have to be a doctor or a lawyer or this or that.
Guest:And generally, a lot of children gravitate towards whatever the father would be doing.
Guest:And so he was always very open.
Marc:I've talked to a lot of Asians.
Guest:Like Ken Jeong.
Guest:He was a doctor.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Years ago when I talked to him, he could still practice.
Marc:Has he given that up?
Marc:I think he's given up his license.
Guest:He's now full-time with the creative arts and the performing arts.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:But I've talked, I talked to Simu and, you know, and several other people, either from Asian countries or just the immigrant experience is like, you've got to do these things.
Marc:But oddly now, you know, being a doctor or a lawyer doesn't guarantee you anything, does it?
Guest:It
Guest:It doesn't.
Guest:Having a degree or a master's or whatever doesn't guarantee you anything.
Guest:And I think nowadays parents have stepped back a bit, dialed back a bit more because they also see they force the children to be what they think is the best thing for them.
Guest:And I find a lot of, especially for my generation, they did it.
Guest:to please their parents because they didn't want their parents to look at them like they're failures.
Guest:So they would become doctors, lawyers, things like that.
Guest:And miserable.
Guest:And the sad, the most sad part is like only when the father dies or something, then they'll go and do what they love.
Marc:Yeah, it's rough.
Guest:Yeah, it is.
Guest:It is.
Guest:But now I think times have changed.
Guest:Parents have changed.
Marc:I talked to Ronnie Chang, too.
Guest:Oh, he's great, isn't he?
Guest:Malaysian.
Marc:Yeah, he's very great.
Guest:I love that guy.
Marc:He's funny.
Guest:He is.
Guest:He is.
Marc:He's an intense character.
Marc:So...
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:He's intense in everything.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Like he'll say to me, there is the best Malaysian restaurant in Sydney.
Guest:You have to go to it.
Guest:Or in LA, you have to go there.
Guest:And I'm like, Ronnie, I know that one.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:But it's all the way in Alhambra.
Guest:I'm not going there.
Guest:But it's the best.
Marc:It's the best.
Marc:he is like that intense he wants the best yeah i love him yeah that's that's who he is he's very genuine yeah he's he's he's a character so so you go to which you went to the fancy english academy of dance kind of thing what was it what was it called royal academy or something royal academy of dance it's like they certify teachers to go around the world to teach so that was your plan
Guest:So, yes, that would have been my plan.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And in fact, you know that I have a very dear friend, and she's a couple of years older than me, and she went ahead to do that first.
Guest:And the plan was like when I came back, we would share a school.
Guest:Start a school in Malaysia?
Guest:In Malaysia together.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:Because I never had plans of being a movie star.
Marc:So what happened to the dance school plans?
Guest:So what happened was I went to one of the sister school of the Royal Academy of Dance, which was in Chester.
Guest:My dad did think that staying in London at such a young age was probably not the best idea.
Guest:So going to boarding school would be better, which is a fact, which I think is also better because you don't want to be in London when you're so young.
Marc:Right.
Guest:London will always be there for you to visit.
Marc:Yeah, you don't want to get corrupted in London.
Marc:No.
Guest:No, what I think is it's nice to be outside in the countryside and you get to see the country a lot more and really get to know the people a lot more.
Guest:Because when you're in London, it's so cosmopolitan, right?
Guest:It's so international.
Guest:So probably you'll end up with all the Malaysians that are living in.
Guest:that's true you don't get the real english experience no so it was great for me i went there and i was in chester was having a whale of a time yes you know you you dance from nine till five oh wow and then you do your o-levels night school you know for a couple of hours for like liberal arts and stuff for yeah yeah so which is which is what i loved yeah to do um then unfortunately i had a
Guest:Bad back.
Guest:I had a... It wasn't an accident.
Guest:It was, unfortunately, something that was accumulative.
Guest:And I did my back.
Guest:You know, we learn to live with pain.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:We dance on our toes.
Guest:Right.
Guest:They would be bloodied and everything, and you still keep dancing and making it look like it's so...
Marc:So you didn't know.
Marc:You didn't register it.
Guest:So I hurt my back so much.
Guest:But you think, no, you know, you just probably pull the muscle.
Guest:Dance through it.
Guest:It's fine.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:That's exactly what we dance through it.
Guest:Like an athlete.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:You work through the pain, right?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And fortunately, in the school, the Hammond School, we had an orthopedic surgeon and orthopedic therapist that came to see the girls, you know, and judge the way they were building and how they were growing, monitor their weight.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They're checking the thoroughbreds?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Actually, that is a good way to look at it as well.
Guest:And so she looked at me and she goes, there is something wrong with you.
Guest:Because at that point, I was literally crawling up the stairs because of my back.
Marc:That was an easy diagnosis.
Guest:You're supposed to walk.
Guest:And she's like...
Guest:So she said, okay, let's just do a few.
Guest:Show me what your motion is.
Guest:And then she said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Guest:So straight to have an x-ray, then an MRI.
Guest:And then it was seen one of my vertebraes had rotated and displaced my hip.
Guest:And I needed a manipulation of that to get it back in place.
Guest:And yes, and at that point when the doctor, the specialist said that, he basically said you shouldn't be doing this kind of dancing.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Because, you know, your body will not be able to handle it in this way.
Marc:Even if you're just teaching.
Guest:If you were teaching, it's not so bad, but you need to take a break from this 9 to 5 kind of dancing.
Guest:So, of course, you know, I was 17 at that time.
Marc:Heartbroken?
Guest:Oh, you know that saying, you see your dream shatter.
Guest:It's like...
Guest:Like that.
Guest:But because I was, I think because I was a foreign student, Mrs. Hammond is lovely, the principal of our school.
Guest:She says, darling, this is not the end of dancing.
Guest:There's so many areas, which she is right, right?
Guest:You're looking at choreography, the history of dance, so many other things that you could look into.
Marc:I bet you martial arts wasn't on her list.
Guest:No, definitely not on the list.
Guest:Definitely.
Guest:I think at that point, if you said to me, you're going to be a martial art or an actor, everybody would say, I bet the last bottom pound.
Guest:You would never make it as an actor.
Marc:So how did you take it?
Guest:So, you know, I think...
Guest:Good thing I've always been, as good Asian children, we always listen to our elders because they are the ones who will come out with the good advice.
Guest:So I went on to do my O-levels.
Guest:She introduced me.
Guest:She found a college that offered a degree in dance, basically, so I could keep on in the world of dance and then decide what I wanted to do.
Marc:Oh, without killing yourself.
Guest:Without killing myself further.
Marc:Did you get the adjustment?
Guest:I did, yeah.
Marc:When you were 17?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:There was no way around it at that point.
Marc:What does that mean, an adjustment?
Marc:Did they have to do surgery?
Guest:So they go in laparoscopically, so they don't actually have to cut, thank God.
Guest:So I have a little incision on my back, and I go in and they manipulate.
Marc:The vertebrae.
Marc:They just kind of screwed it back in, right?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, that's actually a good way to put it.
Guest:But fortunately, it did go back in.
Guest:But I continued to dance.
Guest:I continued to do choreography.
Guest:And it opened a bigger picture in a new world.
Guest:And it was...
Guest:Good for me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, so your mind, instead of just seeing ballet, ballet, ballet, ballet school, ballet school, this, this, this.
Guest:And then suddenly you go like, oh, wow, I can do so many other things.
Marc:Whole spectrum of dance and stuff.
Guest:Correct.
Guest:It was like, okay, when you do this.
Guest:But then still there was no...
Guest:Definitive plan.
Marc:No career plan.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:And now you're like, what, 20?
Guest:Now I was 21 because I got my degree.
Guest:And you go back to Malaysia?
Guest:I went back to Malaysia with the plans.
Guest:I loved living in England at that point.
Guest:I loved the freedom of expression of the creative arts.
Guest:And that was not something that I could have pursued back in Malaysia at that point.
Guest:Because it was not so...
Guest:There were not so many of these kind of things going on.
Marc:People didn't really care as much.
Guest:Not for the performance arts.
Marc:Was there traditional performance arts in Malaysia?
Guest:Traditional in the sense... I think there were dancing.
Guest:There were.
Guest:But not the kind that I was looking for.
Guest:And also, if you love the place, you already know what are the things you want to go back to and to explore.
Guest:Like in Scotland or in London or something like that.
Guest:And then...
Guest:I went back home and my mother, she had enrolled me secretly into Miss Malaysia.
Guest:Oh, beauty pageant.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Secretly?
Guest:Yeah, because she sent my forms in and everything.
Guest:She signed it for me.
Guest:So technically, I'm not legitimate.
Marc:So she had a plan.
Marc:She had a plan.
Marc:What do you think she saw that doing for you?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:No, I think what she was was like she thinks maybe I could go to Hong Kong.
Guest:Maybe there would be something more.
Guest:But she was always that way inclined.
Guest:She loved the stage.
Guest:She loved the movie.
Guest:She would have made the best.
Guest:She just wanted you to be a star.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I think she did.
Guest:Or she didn't know, because she was not an actress herself.
Guest:She married very young.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But, you know, she had, like, she loved to do fashion shows.
Guest:She loved to do concerts and things like that.
Marc:So she thought you were beautiful.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Which mother doesn't think that, of their child?
Marc:Right.
Marc:I think my mom goes in and out, but yes.
Marc:But...
Marc:It depends on my weight.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:They do do that to you all the time, don't they?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:But that's interesting that she steps in after this education.
Marc:She knows you want to dance.
Marc:But were you expressing that you didn't know what you wanted to do?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:I expressed that I wanted to go back to England and, you know, continue.
Marc:I really wonder what she was thinking.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:She was thinking, you know, you're 21 now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This is the perfect age to be able to do this competition because later on you won't be, you've gone past, you're over the hill sort of thing.
Guest:So she truly believed, she loves me.
Guest:She loves this kind of environment.
Marc:Because there's a talent portion and there's several different portions of how you become Miss Malaysia or Miss World or whatever.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:I guess you would have danced.
Marc:Did you dance?
Guest:You know, it was very interesting because at that point it was more verbal.
Guest:There was no, we didn't, because even the swimming costume was held out of, there was no public.
Guest:No pool?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:Because we're a Muslim country, right?
Guest:So everything is also very toned down and things like that.
Guest:So technically, they were looking for an ambassador, a spokesperson for Malaysia.
Guest:You would go and you would highlight the qualities of your country and more geared towards that.
Guest:Like in Hong Kong at that time, they had TVB and ATV, right?
Guest:So immediately they would get a TV contract to be an actor or an actress.
Marc:If they won the competition.
Guest:If they won, or first and second and third, I think they have that.
Guest:But that gave you exposure.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because the TV stations were the ones who organized it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Whereas for in Malaysia, it wasn't so.
Guest:It's not like televised at all.
Guest:Okay, okay.
Guest:So it was a much more subdued and quiet sort of like competition.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Just almost local feeling.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's just like really Malaysian ground.
Guest:But, you know, Malaysia is quite a big place.
Guest:Did you win?
Guest:Yes.
Maybe.
Guest:You nailed it.
Guest:Your mom was right.
Guest:So now you're on your way to what?
Guest:No.
Guest:So I had to, for a year, I had to do my duties as Miss Malaysia.
Guest:How were those?
Guest:No, some of them was very interesting because, like I say, it was much more like a tourist ambassador for Malaysia.
Guest:So you would go to different countries to promote your country.
Guest:It wasn't a self-promotional thing.
Marc:As Miss Malaysia.
Guest:As Miss Malaysia, I represented my country to like the festivals in Australia or in England.
Marc:By speaking?
Guest:By speaking.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And by, you know, being there, like there are certain festivals that they talk about tourism and things like that.
Guest:And girls from different parts of the world will come as Miss Singapore or Miss Barbados or whatever.
Marc:So what do they have in Malaysia?
Guest:Oh, we have the mountains, we have the sea, we have the most pristine rainforest.
Guest:We have something for everyone.
Guest:You still got it.
Guest:I still got it.
Guest:And we have the best, most wonderful people and food.
Marc:Yes, food like you've never had before.
Marc:And then you go to the next, is there another, did you compete for like?
Guest:Mine was Miss World.
Marc:Miss World.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:How did you do in that one?
Guest:No.
Guest:And not Miss World?
Guest:No.
Guest:It's a good experience.
Guest:You were suddenly in a room with so many goals from all over the world.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's like, it's okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was all right?
Guest:It's an experience.
Marc:Were you feeling competitive?
Marc:You were like, I'm going to.
Marc:No.
Marc:You were just sort of like, you were done with it by then?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was like, this is cool.
Marc:You didn't want to be Miss World.
Guest:No.
Guest:You're like, I'm almost out.
Guest:There was no way I could have been Miss World.
Guest:I didn't have the chops for that.
Marc:When do you transition into the person that jumps a motorcycle onto a train?
Guest:So I was back, just finishing the ring of Miss Malaysia.
Guest:And I received this frantic phone call from a friend who was in Hong Kong.
Guest:And say, you have to come to Hong Kong.
Guest:You have to come to Hong Kong tomorrow.
Guest:You know, you have to do this commercial.
Guest:She was just like, race nonstop.
Guest:And I go like, okay, Margaret, calm down.
Guest:Tell me what's going on.
Guest:She says, so she was having dinner with Dixon Poon, who at that point had signed on Chao Yun-fat, Jackie Chan, George Lam.
Guest:Because, you know, he was a very- He was a producer?
Guest:At that point, he was not just a producer.
Guest:He has all these brands like Chopard and Rolex and Bulgari and fashion as well.
Marc:So this is him getting into the movie business?
Guest:And he was using the movie business as a platform as well because he was using the stars to advertise.
Guest:Got it.
Guest:And then at that point, you know, he got to know them and he thought, oh, this could be a very interesting way to.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And started off thinking being a producer.
Guest:So when I got over there, so he had, they were having dinner and she said to him,
Guest:And he was saying, oh, yeah, I have these stars yet, but we haven't found the girl to star opposite them.
Guest:So she then said, oh, my friend is Miss Malaysia.
Guest:You wouldn't believe this.
Guest:She actually had my photographs in her handbag.
Guest:And she whoops them out and she gives it to him.
Guest:So he's looking and he goes like, oh, well, maybe ask her if she's interested to come to Hong Kong and I'll meet her.
Guest:And so the next thing I knew, I was like...
Guest:Sure, I'll come to Hong Kong.
Guest:Why not, right?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I met... Had you been there before?
Guest:Yes, I'd been there one time before with my mom.
Marc:Pretty exciting.
Guest:It's a damn exciting city.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So dynamic, right?
Guest:You feel the energy of that place.
Guest:Yeah, it's crazy.
Guest:I love Hong Kong.
Guest:So then I...
Guest:Well, what the hell, what have I got to lose, right?
Guest:So I went there and I met Dixon.
Guest:I thought, oh, nice, interesting, smart guy, good guy.
Guest:So then he, you know, bustled in John Sham, Sam O'Hong, Poo Chi Leung, you know, Philip Chet, all the people who were going to do this commercial.
Guest:And they said, yeah, you're going to be working with Sing Long and it's going to be cool.
Guest:The next thing I knew was tomorrow morning, 6.30, I get picked up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I go like, I'm working with Sing Long.
Guest:I'm like, I don't know.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Then I look across the room and there's just someone running over to me and says, hi, Michelle.
Guest:And I go, oh my God, it's Jackie Chan.
Marc:Jackie Chan.
Marc:You knew him?
Guest:I knew Jackie Chan.
Guest:I didn't know his Chinese name.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Because I'm English education.
Marc:Oh, that's his name?
Guest:That's his Chinese name, right?
Marc:So he was already a star?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:He was a big star.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, he was the biggest star from Hong Kong.
Guest:Oh, that's so funny.
Guest:He had done Drunken Master and all these kind of things.
Guest:So we used to go, you know, in London, in Piccadilly Circus, there is a cinema that shows Asian movies, Chinese movies in particular.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Midnight showing, you know, and we would go during the weekends, you know, with a huddle with all our Malaysian friends.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Watch this film.
Guest:Watch Jackie Chan?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Watch Jackie Chan.
Guest:What's his name in Chinese?
Guest:Sing Long.
Guest:He had no idea.
Guest:I had no idea.
Guest:So he runs up to you like, oh, my God.
Guest:And I'm like, oh, my God.
Guest:So, you know, it was great.
Guest:You know, he is what you see.
Guest:He's charming.
Guest:He's funny.
Guest:You know, he's very engaging, very generous with his time.
Guest:Because this was the first...
Guest:I hadn't done this before.
Marc:You hadn't done anything.
Guest:No, that's true.
Guest:I hadn't done anything.
Guest:What the hell?
Guest:And we did the commercial together.
Guest:What was it for?
Guest:It was for this watch called Guy LaRoche.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So what did you have to do in that commercial?
Guest:Oh, it was a fun thing.
Guest:I was riding a horse.
Guest:Then he was on a bicycle.
Guest:You know, this typical, oh, see a pretty girl fall off the bike.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And then I was on a motorcycle.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:So that's where you first rode the motorcycle?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yes, and a little moped.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:So you do that with Jackie.
Marc:You guys become friends then?
Guest:We are friends.
Guest:We're still friends.
Guest:We become friends.
Guest:But, you know, I did not see him and we did not work together.
Marc:You left after the commercial?
Marc:You went back to Malaysia?
Guest:No.
Guest:Then Dixon offered me a film contract.
Guest:And I was thinking, oh, wow, this is pretty cool, right?
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Guest:And I'm thinking...
Guest:I don't know if my dad is going to say yes to this.
Marc:How old are you?
Marc:You're 22?
Guest:I was 22.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:I was 22 going on.
Guest:Yeah, 22.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I thought, but I'll go home.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And ask his advice.
Guest:And then I had a contract in my hand, right?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I was thinking.
Guest:Good money?
Yeah.
Guest:Well, at that point, for me as a young girl who has never worked before, it was relatively good.
Marc:And you were about to be an ex-Miss Malaysia.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I needed a job, right?
Guest:And that one just landed on my lap.
Guest:And it was like, so I took the contract home.
Guest:For two days, I mulled over it.
Guest:And I'm like, how do I ask my dad?
Guest:How do I persuade him that this could be interesting for me?
Marc:Did he know you did the Jackie Chan commercial?
Guest:Yes, of course.
Guest:Okay, so that must have got him excited.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Not really.
Guest:The lawyer was not that excited.
Guest:No.
Guest:My mom was excited.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:My lawyer then, nah.
Guest:That doesn't drive him.
Guest:If he was Tarzan, maybe.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:That would, my dad would be like, yes.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:So I finally, because my dad and I are very close.
Guest:I finally said to him, well, they offered me a film contract for three years.
Guest:And I have it here.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Would you have a look at it?
Guest:And he said, of course.
Guest:So he looked at it and he says, this is basically a slave contract.
Marc:Oh, so he knew, of course.
Marc:Well, that was lucky he was a lawyer.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Then he says, are you sure you want to do this?
Guest:I said, well, you're the lawyer.
Guest:Fix it.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:You can unslave it, right?
Guest:So then it was, and I was wondering if what he would say.
Guest:And then he said, so when do you want to go?
Guest:Wow.
Guest:You know, I think my dad was the one who believed in me and thought, if this is what you think you want to try, you should do it.
Guest:Oh, that's sweet.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Did he fix the contract?
Guest:It's very important.
Guest:Yes, he did.
Guest:And they took it?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:No, it was, you know, I think at that point, it's still very much, it's a contract, it's just words, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Much more important, the relationship.
Guest:Right.
Guest:The trust in each other.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You can't be always holding the contract and say, well, this is what you brought.
Marc:Well, of course, right.
Marc:But you trusted the guy, what's his name?
Guest:Dixon.
Guest:Dixon, yeah.
Guest:Who ended up to be my husband.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:A few years later, we got married.
Marc:Well, then there you go.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How long did that last?
Guest:We were together for about eight, nine years.
Marc:Pretty good.
Guest:Yeah, pretty good.
Marc:Until the end of the contract?
Marc:No.
Guest:The contract was only for three years.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you started making movies?
Guest:Well, yeah, right away.
Marc:And what kind of movies?
Yeah.
Guest:At that point in Hong Kong, generally it was action films, comedies, and the women were mainly, you know, the love interest or they were the damsel in distress.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Where the guys were the... Sure.
Guest:They swoop down and rescue... Save you, right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So the first movie I was in, Howe vs. Dumbo, with the amazing Sam O'Hong and George Lam and Dini Yip, it was an action movie.
Guest:And he was the stunt coordinator.
Guest:And when I looked at him, because he's this hefty guy, he somersaults, he tumbles, he's like this incredible martial artist.
Guest:But as I watched, it was very clear, this is choreography.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:This is exactly like what we do in dance, right?
Guest:You are taught the movements, they choreograph, and it's two, three, five people dancing or fighting.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's still moving two arms and two feet.
Marc:And it has to be choreographed.
Guest:Oh, everything is not random.
Guest:It's choreographed.
Guest:It has to be.
Guest:Of course, or people are going to get hurt.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or too many people would get hurt.
Guest:And then I became fascinated by this, mainly also because my Chinese was not so good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I was trying to find a way to hide behind something.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What was your language that you grew up with?
Marc:English?
Guest:English and Malay.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So Malay is the national language.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And English, of course.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I went to school in Katwin.
Guest:So you know Chinese.
Yeah.
Guest:At home, we spoke Chinese, but when I speak the Chinese in Hong Kong, they laugh at me.
Guest:They're like, do you know what you're saying?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they're like, no, that's not what it means.
Guest:So a different dialect?
Guest:No.
Guest:Hong Kong is Cantonese, maybe Cantonese.
Guest:But how we use it in Malaysia is because it's sort of like...
Guest:corrupted or bastardized with Malay and English.
Guest:And so we would have Malay words in our Cantonese.
Guest:And so they would go, no, that's not how it's said in Hong Kong.
Guest:And so they had a bit of fun with me, which is fine.
Marc:But did you figure it out or you just still faked it?
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:I managed to figure it out.
Guest:Because, you know, the more people laugh at you, the more you're going to go, aha, I think I better figure it out.
Guest:Because before, I want to know what they're laughing at.
Guest:But what I was really, by the second movie, you know, you sort of said, I would love to be able to try the action.
Marc:You said that.
Guest:I said that.
Marc:And at this point, were you talking to Dixon?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Well, you know, the Dixon and the directors and his producers, they're very close.
Guest:You know, they talk about, because Dixon was very hands-on and he loved being part of the process of, you know, what's the story?
Guest:He was a producer, not just the executive producer.
Marc:But were there women doing that at that time?
Guest:They used to be in the old days during the Shaw Brothers where they had the swordswoman.
Guest:But then even in the time of Bruce Lee, he always had a lady, Angela Mao, who you would do some martial arts with him.
Guest:And for a while, that sort of tapered off and the women became more like the love interest and we need to protect them and we shouldn't let them be the ones who are running risks and being in danger.
Guest:So then when that sort of caught on, you know how it is.
Guest:Once the thing runs away and then you go like, no, no, no.
Marc:Just keep making more of it.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And especially when they were so successful.
Marc:Right, of course.
Guest:And if the audience wants that, they think, hey, we're doing the right thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So then we said, let us just give a go.
Guest:And then they thought, well, you know, action movies are very popular.
Marc:Why not try it, right?
Guest:Give it a shot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And if it doesn't work, we'll just put it back in the same box.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:So what was the first action movie?
Guest:It was called Yes, Madam, where I played a cop.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:A detective, yeah.
Marc:And now were you training martial arts?
Guest:Oh, yes.
Guest:Oh, yes.
Guest:Because the point was, if I wanted to be in this, I wanted to be the one to do it, to show that it works.
Guest:It can be done.
Marc:What martial arts did you start with?
Guest:I didn't do like karate or taekwondo.
Guest:So I had Corey Yoon was the director of it.
Guest:So they sent someone from, you know, someone who knew martial arts, but that's not always the best thing.
Guest:When you're a good martial artist, it doesn't mean you're a good teacher.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But then also when you do martial arts for camera, it's very different from competition.
Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Or real style of fighting.
Guest:You have to use it for the camera.
Marc:And you have to stop.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:At the right place.
Guest:But with power.
Guest:But you have to know when to stop the power without going through.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But I was very fortunate because I enrolled in a gym.
Guest:And I knew in this gym, they were all the stunt people.
Guest:They were all the action actors.
Guest:They trained there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Eddie Meyer is also one of the characters that played in the film, which was great because then, you know, we became friends and he would introduce me to all.
Guest:And I think I was a little bit of a novelty at that point because, you know, she's Miss Malaysia and she wants to fight.
Marc:Yeah, but you had this amazing dance background.
Guest:But they didn't really know that, right?
Guest:So all they saw was this girl who wants to fight.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:Join the boys club.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you're picking up all these tricks and stuff from them?
Marc:They're showing you how to do stuff?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:They were like, okay, we'll show you.
Guest:But then it's up to you.
Guest:Can you pick it up?
Marc:But ultimately, once you got all the tricks you needed to choreograph fight scenes, it wasn't like you could compete in martial arts.
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:No, no.
Marc:You just knew how to.
Guest:I just knew how to do it in that.
Guest:Interesting.
Guest:In competition, I would be like, first out the door.
Marc:But then what evolves, though, is your capacity for stunts, right?
Marc:So that's something that, you know, that makes you, you can compete in the stunt world.
Guest:No, no, no, no, no.
Guest:I left that behind also.
Guest:No, I think what it was, it was a little bit of the ego thing going like, I have to step up.
Guest:Because, you know, I'm the one that said I wanted to join the boys club.
Guest:And these boys didn't just join the club.
Guest:They paid their dues.
Guest:You know, they really fought their way through pain and injury and things like that to be part of.
Guest:They deserve their place there.
Guest:So how are you going to segue into that?
Guest:Not just because you say you want to be there.
Guest:So you had to prove yourself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And fortunately, the people that I was training with, they were hardcore actors and stunt people.
Guest:So they taught me because they looked at me and they thought, oh, okay, she's not bad.
Guest:She's not bad.
Guest:She just needs to learn how to... You know, it's like when you... Tie boxes are the most ferocious, but then they really can...
Guest:knock you out but when you look at them they look like they're so you know and then it doesn't you don't see the no rigidity right none of that that speed and power yeah so what you for camera you need to see that right but you don't need to you know go into hitting a person performative thing yes exactly it's like professional wrestling yeah oh yes i didn't say that you did okay
Marc:Why?
Marc:Would you get in trouble?
Marc:Am I going to get in trouble?
Guest:No.
Guest:No, we won't get in trouble.
Guest:My dad loved watching wrestling.
Guest:And I was going like, Dad, you know that's fake, right?
Guest:Come on.
Marc:But he must have loved when they did the movies if he loved professional wrestling.
Guest:He was a little bit proud of it.
Guest:But they never came to set.
Guest:No?
Guest:No.
Guest:That's not allowed.
Guest:Because on set, you sometimes really don't know if you could get hurt.
Guest:And when we fight, we take blows at each other.
Guest:You have to take the hit.
Marc:That's like professional wrestling too.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:There's no doubt about it.
Guest:But it's also almost like choreographed.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:In that way.
Marc:Has to be.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Marc:So people don't get hurt.
Guest:so that people don't break their backs and their necks or something like that.
Guest:So I loved it.
Guest:I relished in that physical side of it.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:When did you feel like you were at your peak with learning this?
Marc:Was it Police Story?
Guest:Oh, Police Story is very interesting because I was doing Yes, Madam.
Marc:Is that the one where you go through the play class?
Guest:Yes, the first one.
Marc:That was crazy.
Marc:That's a crazy fight sequence.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:That was my first.
Guest:But that really solidified the fact that she deserved to be here.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:You know, all right.
Guest:She's not bad.
Marc:Because it seems like there's long runs where you don't even cut.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There's several.
Marc:You have to choreograph like a full minute or two.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because that's the tempo.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:If it's too short, you know, it's like ta, ta, ta.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's like if you play music, you can't just play.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:And it'll look like you're cutting around the fight.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:So the risk, in order for people to really get into the choreography, you got to do all the whole thing.
Guest:They have to be engaged.
Guest:And the only way you can engage them is that they see it.
Guest:They're like, whoa, oh my God.
Guest:You know, then they're like, that sucked.
Guest:You literally like.
Guest:draw them in so then you did you did like four movies before police story yeah oh i did four movies and then i retired because i got married we got addiction oh so it was like that much yes and then he wanted you out or you wanted out oh no i wanted to stop okay because i believe i am not a good multitasker yeah i just hope and i truly believe that
Guest:To make – I wanted, like, the full marriage.
Guest:I wanted to have kids.
Guest:I wanted the whole thing.
Guest:And, you know, if you're filming a few – you know, a month's on end.
Guest:Interesting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I felt that this was – Oh, so you were going to turn your back on the whole thing, huh?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was like, if not, then don't get married.
Guest:Right?
Guest:Continue.
Guest:I guess.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I guess it wasn't part of the culture where women work.
Guest:And that was the other reason where, you know, it's almost a, you know, his friends or the guys would tell us, you can't afford to keep your wife at home.
Guest:She has to work for a living.
Guest:Oh, so it's part of his ego.
Guest:It's a lot of, no, it's not even an ego thing.
Guest:I think it's like peer pressure.
Guest:It's like, why do you, your wife is, it's tough work, you know?
Guest:Being an actor is not an easy life.
Guest:going, you know, when you're on set.
Marc:Especially not when you're going through plate glass windows.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's not traditional acting.
Marc:There's no class at Juilliard going through plate glass windows.
Guest:I know.
Guest:That is still one of the best, like, crazy-ass stunts.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, it was only when, you know, we got divorced and I was still very much part in Hong Kong.
Marc:But you didn't end up doing the whole family thing or the...
Guest:Unfortunately, you know, that's life.
Guest:I was not blessed with children.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Yeah, me neither.
Marc:It's a gift.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:But it's true, right?
Guest:You are or you're not.
Guest:And if you are not, there are reasons you have to.
Marc:I think so, sure.
Marc:But so you were out of the game for seven years, though?
Guest:No, about three, four years.
Marc:Four years.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:So my comeback movie was...
Marc:And it was with Jackie.
Guest:And it was with Jackie.
Marc:That was the first movie with Jackie?
Guest:That was the first movie with Jackie.
Guest:Since the commercial?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:It's so funny.
Guest:We always look at him, how did that happen?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That was a crazy movie.
Guest:It was.
Guest:Stanley Tong, the director.
Yeah.
Marc:But I heard, so how did you get back in shape to do that stuff?
Guest:I was always in shape.
Marc:Okay, you never, right.
Guest:Because it's part, you know when you're an athlete or a dancer, you never sort of step away from that.
Guest:You sort of make it part of your life.
Guest:And I loved, you know, I run around, I ran, I played.
Guest:Then I learned to pick up sports like tennis, things that I didn't play before, but very active.
Guest:And so I was always very, very like physically active.
Marc:You were ready to jump a motorcycle?
Guest:I wasn't thinking about that at that point.
Guest:It was really Stanley Tong, who was also one of the... He was a stunt coordinator, a stuntman when I first met him.
Guest:And we became friends because it's important because these are the people that keeps you safe.
Guest:Sure, of course.
Guest:And trains with you, so they remind you and...
Guest:Keep you on your toes.
Guest:And Stanley Tom became a friend as well.
Guest:So even though while I was married, you know, we would train together because it's a sport, right?
Guest:So we would still be in touch and all those kind of things.
Guest:And he said to me one day, if ever...
Guest:I get to be a director and I have a good movie.
Guest:I will come knocking at your door.
Guest:And you're like, yeah, sure.
Guest:But, you know, you're thinking, I don't know when that's going to happen, but good luck to you.
Guest:So he did come knocking with Supercop.
Marc:And that was it.
Marc:That was a huge international hit.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:That was a huge hit.
Guest:And it was such a beautiful way for me to be able to slide back in and say, I'm still here.
Marc:And I'm better than ever.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:But I heard that you gave Jackie Chan like a run for the money, that your stunts.
Guest:I think it's so unfair on Jackie simply because, you know, Jackie has already had this reputation.
Guest:And so if I do this, he has to do that.
Guest:He has to be bigger.
Guest:So one day he came to me and said, what are you trying to do?
Guest:Are you trying to kill me?
Guest:I'm like, no.
Guest:Because when I did that motorcycle jump, right, he was like,
Marc:What am I supposed to do?
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's why he ended up in the helicopter.
Marc:But it was friendly competition.
Guest:No.
Guest:Between us, it's always been like that.
Guest:That's great.
Guest:And we've been friends now for 30-something years.
Marc:So it's so impressive, though, because you did, you know, you did like probably 20 movies of that type.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And then when does it start to do you do you find yourself getting tired or do you find because you're a huge star in a different part of the world and with American martial arts films fanatics.
Marc:But like you're not necessarily on my radar until much later.
Marc:Was that frustrating?
Marc:Was that something you were aware of?
Guest:It's not frustrating when you're not so aware of it.
Marc:Right, because you're a star still.
Guest:Right, exactly.
Guest:And also, it's like you don't really have time to sit.
Guest:Yes, I see some of my peers, you know, colleagues.
Guest:They do some kind of martial arts, but they are more dramatic actresses.
Guest:And in Hong Kong, the sun coordinators are so good at, you know, putting in the double.
Marc:Sure, and that's your skill set, right?
Marc:That's your talent.
Yeah.
Guest:That's yeah.
Guest:But but of course, as an actor, you must be able to because if there's no drama, there's no action.
Marc:No, right.
Guest:But I didn't do like a dramatic film until like the Song Sisters.
Guest:And so, you know, then you sort of go, yes, I have to broaden my things.
Guest:But I also have to convince filmmakers to allow me to broaden my scope.
Marc:Well, how was, did you ever train as a dramatic actress?
Guest:No, I did.
Guest:When I was doing my degree in dance, I thought, well, you know, I'll minor in drama.
Guest:It will help me with my body language, you know, vocal.
Guest:And then I discovered stage fright.
Guest:That was the first time I suddenly went.
Marc:When you did a play or something?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Because, you know, as part of the course, you have to perform whether it's a soliloquy or, you know, a part of a play with somebody else and other actors, right?
Guest:And then suddenly I realized, oh, my God, when I have to go up on stage and speak.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Terrified?
Guest:I hear my heartbeat.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Pounding.
Guest:Doom, doom.
Guest:I start sweating.
Guest:I start shaking.
Guest:I forget my name.
Guest:It was terrifying.
Guest:And so then I went, like, I don't want to do drama anymore.
Guest:That was it, huh?
Guest:It was horrible.
Marc:But, you know, I just realized something, though.
Marc:Like, when you just innately, when you're working in a physical kind of mode like that, when most of these movies are driven by...
Marc:this stage combat and whatnot, is that in order to put emotion with the characters, you have to be able to communicate it in almost as broad a way as the action.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Because you know what's important is the action, but the emotions that drive the story have to be there, but they don't have to be subtle.
Marc:Right.
Marc:No, exactly.
Marc:So that's interesting because, you know, by the time you arrive at the films you're in now, you know, specifically the most current two, even in Crazy Rich Asians, I mean, that is the opposite of broad acting.
Marc:I don't want to say melodramatic, but the subtlety was what made the entire performance, right?
Guest:Yeah, right.
Marc:So when you do The Soong Sisters, I mean...
Marc:Was it directors that helped you get in touch with being comfortable?
Marc:And also, you're not on stage in a theater.
Marc:You're on a film set, which you're completely comfortable with.
Guest:Better.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But remember, in the 80s in Hong Kong, when we used to make movies, we rarely had a script.
Guest:Well, even if I had a script, I wouldn't know how to read it because I didn't read Chinese.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And then we were dubbed.
Guest:All our films were dubbed.
Marc:Right.
Guest:We didn't sync it in the... So there was no requirement in the...
Guest:No.
Marc:Of you other than to communicate emotion.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So then afterwards, and they would dub our voices.
Guest:And often enough, as they're editing, you go like, what is the character?
Guest:What is the role?
Guest:Until you see it.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, that's what you're doing.
Guest:So the plots were much more simple.
Guest:But then, you know, as you get, you have to be, you learn, you understand plots have to be more complicated.
Guest:And since I am in this business, I should make myself learn more about it and understand.
Guest:I had no intention of like being a director or anything, but I love the concept of being a producer.
Guest:So what does that entail?
Guest:What would I do?
Marc:So that's what your thoughts were before even acting in these different types of movies?
Guest:No, no, no, no, no.
Guest:While I was acting.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So while I was acting, and also, you know, you do get to think, well, I need to broaden my scope.
Guest:I also understood that you have to... It's driven by the drama.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like I did the movie called...
Guest:a story of Akam, the stunt woman.
Guest:It was like my homage to the stunt people.
Guest:Because I see, you know, the injuries, the unsung heroes.
Guest:Nobody sees their faces.
Guest:You know, if they get hurt, they get carted off to the hospital.
Guest:I don't know if they even have insurance or things like that.
Guest:And it was actually, and in that one, it was more, we had Ann Hui,
Guest:She's the most beautiful director from Hong Kong.
Guest:But she is a drama director.
Guest:She's always known for her dramatic things.
Guest:So that was when, you know, you start thinking, I have to pull in the two together and find the balance.
Marc:Did she guide you?
Guest:Yeah, of course she did.
Guest:But then I also had one of the worst accidents.
Guest:While making that movie.
Guest:And I think I traumatized poor Anne.
Guest:I don't think she ever made an action film again after that.
Guest:What happened?
Guest:We had this scene where I was in the first, in the big shot.
Guest:It was me being pushed off this highway bridge onto a moving truck.
Guest:So I would jump onto that and speed away.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:So we had a close up.
Guest:And so the jump was maybe about 10, 15 feet.
Marc:And you're doing it.
Guest:And I'm doing it.
Guest:So Samuel pushes me off and I'm supposed to, generally when you do this, you know to land this way or flip right at the end.
Guest:But because I was focusing on, okay, this is the point where she doesn't want to jump and, you know, she's being pushed.
Guest:Thank you.
Yeah.
Guest:And so suddenly, boom, I hit the mattress.
Guest:And in the worst possible way.
Guest:Because we don't have airbags.
Guest:We use cardboard boxes and mattresses.
Guest:And my head just went between them, got stuck.
Guest:And my legs came from behind me.
Guest:And literally, I heard my back go like smack.
Marc:You broke your back?
Guest:Everybody thought I broke my back.
Guest:At that point, I saw Anne standing next to me, tears just streaming.
Guest:She was just like shaking like a shit.
Guest:Because you know when you see it?
Marc:Yeah, it's disturbing.
Guest:It is shocking.
Guest:And Sammo, bless him, he's one of the first people that...
Guest:I knew from when I arrived in Hong Kong.
Guest:And at that point, I didn't have an English name.
Guest:So people, I know when people call me Chu King, that means they were the first few people that met me.
Guest:And suddenly I heard, Chu King, are you okay?
Guest:Then I thought, oh shit, I'm in trouble now.
Marc:An old timer saw you fuck up.
Marc:That's what you thought?
Guest:No, because he must be so nervous.
Guest:He's actually speaking to me in English and calling me by my own name in English.
Guest:And so I thought, oh boy, maybe this is... And, you know, in the outtakes, you can see me being carried off in the mattress to one of our vans because they didn't want to wait for an ambulance to come.
Guest:And...
Guest:At that point, you're thinking, oh, my God, this could be it.
Marc:Did you feel your legs and everything?
Guest:You know, your whole body is like it's on fire.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's just like every bump.
Guest:That was good.
Guest:I said I can feel pain.
Guest:That's good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, because I think all the years of training as a martial artist, as someone, you know, when you do these kind of things.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I called my fiance at that point and I said, I am hurt and I hurt my back.
Guest:So we need to find our orthopedic friend and make sure that he's there for me as soon as I arrive.
Guest:I'm in this location.
Guest:And then, you know, all these hospitals, they have very weird rules.
Guest:If you come in this, you can't take the same ambulance and doctors are not allowed to practice.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And all I remember was lying there, you know, and they put a body cast on you right away, your neck.
Guest:Because, you know, my neck was like this and my back was like that.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm lying there.
Guest:And so, you know...
Guest:they turn on the TV just to distract you.
Guest:And then they announce, oh, you know, today there's been an accident, and we think that Michelle has been hurt.
Guest:So I quickly called my mom.
Guest:And say, oh, oh, I'm fine, I'm fine.
Guest:It's just, you know, yeah, it was a minor thing on set, but then nothing.
Guest:Don't believe the news.
Guest:Yeah, I was just lying there going, yeah, I'm fine, everything is good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And what happened?
Guest:What happened?
Guest:So, I was so fortunate because I was so flexible.
Guest:I did, like, all my back ligaments got, like, shot to hell, but I didn't break anything.
Guest:It's a miracle.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, my ribs because of the way I landed, but technically, I didn't break my back.
Guest:And they were like, I don't know how you did it, but the doctor said, it's just because you are so flexible that, you know, your body took the impact, but...
Marc:And that coincided, not coincidentally, with doing more dramatic roles?
Marc:Nope.
Guest:At that point, you know, it's very interesting because you're really down.
Guest:Can you imagine such someone that runs around all the time is just stuck?
Guest:And then all my sisters, well, I have a sisterhood in Hong Kong.
Guest:And, you know, they, they're not, not, most of them are not actors or in the, even in the profession.
Guest:But my friends, my sisters, we were like sisters, you know, they come and they look, they look at me and they're like, why do you do this?
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, they were, they were like trying to, you have to, look, you get hurt like this.
Guest:We can't do anything for you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, what are you thinking?
Guest:Why?
Guest:So they were trying to shock me out of, you know, and,
Marc:Guilt you out of it.
Guest:Yeah, in a sense.
Guest:And they were right because I have to stop thinking.
Guest:I have to prove myself.
Guest:I have to do these kind of things.
Marc:But you've been going a long time.
Marc:I mean, you must have been, what, in your 30s, late 30s?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was in my 30s.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So then I was—but then, you know, the problem is because you are stuck in that—
Guest:Then your mind is also going, yeah, maybe I have to reflect on maybe this is a time to step back and think of something else or whatever it is.
Guest:And it was interesting because at that time, while I was recuperating, maybe three, four weeks into it, Quentin came to town.
Yeah.
Guest:And he loved you, right?
Guest:He loves the... Actually, he is one of the biggest admirer of the Hong Kong cinema.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:I mean, he really championed all the films, all the directors.
Guest:And then he said when he was there, I'm going to meet Jackie, I'm going to meet Jed, I want to meet Michelle.
Guest:And at that point, we had not met.
Guest:I just knew of the things that he was doing.
Guest:But like this, you're going...
Guest:You know, I feel, you feel like bleh.
Marc:But you weren't in the hospital still.
Guest:No, by then I had gone back home.
Marc:But you were still a little bad shape.
Guest:No, I was like in a sort of a cast, you know, and you're not moving.
Guest:Generally, you're just sitting there going like, you idiot.
Guest:Why did you do that?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Did you see the footage of it?
Guest:You did, right?
Guest:Did you see the footage of you jumping?
Guest:I couldn't do it.
Guest:I saw the part that was in the film.
Guest:I didn't want to watch because I dive out past the camera.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:So because it was the top part that they wanted.
Guest:It wasn't the landing that was necessary because the landing was already done.
Guest:So literally you can see my legs go by.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you didn't get it on camera?
Guest:They didn't get that.
Marc:The fall.
Guest:That plunge on camera.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So Quentin's there.
Marc:You're in traction.
Marc:You're in a collar and a cast.
Guest:And you know Quentin.
Guest:His heart is as big as.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he is very persistent.
Guest:He's like, no, please ask five minutes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:five okay ten five minutes yeah not ten five minutes yeah just want to say hello yeah and so finally you know you're okay all right okay yeah i mean i'm a great admirer of his sure i would love to meet him i mean other times i would have gone to meet him right so the next thing i knew was so i'm in the living room and i look up and you see this big guy he's bounding down the stairs like yeah
Guest:three, four at a time, you know, and he's tall and he's lanky.
Guest:And so he comes, he's like, Michelle, he picks up a pillow, puts it on the floor down next to my feet.
Guest:He sits there and he goes, you know, and then he goes on to talk about the movies, my films, you know, in Yes Madam, going through the pane of glass.
Guest:He could frame for frame tell me all the things that I have done.
Guest:And so I'm watching this and I'm like, and he sweeps me up.
Guest:And next thing I know, we were talking.
Guest:Yeah, you know, at that point, this is what happened.
Guest:And everybody was going like, can you calm down, please?
Marc:He'll get you going, huh?
Guest:He just reminded me, I do love what I do.
Guest:I just have to be smart at it.
Guest:Don't take unnecessary risks.
Guest:And don't take risks.
Marc:So that was the lesson.
Guest:That was a good lesson.
Guest:That was a tough lesson.
Marc:Well, that's so funny that it took Quentin being excited for you to really...
Marc:Take into consideration just how much you've done and how much you like doing it.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And to see somebody that excited about it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I think everyone in my friends and my family at that point.
Marc:Had gotten used to it.
Guest:No.
Guest:It was like, no, you should, you know, well, let's do something else.
Guest:Let's take it.
Guest:They were trying to.
Marc:But you just became more selective.
Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Oh, definitely.
Marc:And, you know, I know the James Bond movie was a big deal.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Oh, yes.
Guest:It was a big deal there, too.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It was amazing.
Marc:That was a great role.
Guest:I know.
Marc:And that kind of brought you into a different audience.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And Crouching Tiger, too.
Guest:The Bond movie was the first international, a truly international movie.
Guest:And, you know, and the character was so precious because she was like toe to toe with Bond.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And to be given that opportunity to play like that with Bond is...
Guest:Such a huge privilege, right?
Guest:But it was so necessary for us Asian women to be seen in that light.
Guest:That we're not just a Ming vase, you know, like we're just like fragile engineer and, you know, cook at home and do the sewing or whatever it is.
Guest:And that we are, we can do whatever it takes to protect the country and protect our family and protect yourself.
Guest:Great.
Guest:So it was a huge step forward and it was very empowering for women in
Marc:So that- Specifically Asian women you find?
Guest:Specifically, yes.
Guest:First of all, Asian women, because we were already in such a, that typecast.
Marc:A precious kind of- Yes, right.
Guest:Especially to the West.
Marc:Stereotype.
Guest:Right.
Guest:If you look to the West, that's how they see us in many ways, except for the ones who know the martial arts films in Hong Kong.
Guest:So it made a tremendous, it gave the women such a big boost.
Guest:Then I went to Hollywood, right?
Guest:At that time, a lot of big directors like John Woo, Ringo Lam, Troy Huck, Samuel, they were all there.
Guest:Chow Yun-fat, they were all there to do.
Guest:Because Hollywood is the dream.
Guest:When you're in the East, going to Hollywood is the ultimate.
Marc:It's like validation somehow.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:Of course, right?
Guest:Because this is where.
Marc:And that was a lot to do with Quentin, that a lot of these guys were put on the radar.
Guest:It's true.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because he was the one who championed it.
Guest:We go, you know, on record during interviews and say, have you ever seen the best, you know, action sequence in this and that?
Guest:And people were like, what?
Guest:Who are you talking about?
Guest:So by then, prior to doing the Bond movie, I had already started changing.
Guest:sort of taking, going to Hollywood because Terence Chang, who was John Woo's manager and producer, and we used to work together in Hong Kong at D&B.
Guest:And so he called me and he says, you know, you should come out here to Hollywood because you speak very good English and this could be an interesting place for you to be.
Guest:And, you know, at that point I was doing so many good films and having fun, you know, just, you know, resurgence of my own career.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you're thinking, do I really want to go there?
Guest:Yeah, I'm doing all right.
Guest:I'm having so much fun here.
Guest:So then I thought, okay, I'll go and... Because John was there.
Guest:Terrence was there.
Guest:My friends were there.
Guest:Jet Li was there.
Guest:So I thought, okay, I'll go over and...
Guest:Check it out.
Guest:And then I got to Hollywood and was like, what?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:I was like, I don't get this.
Guest:Suddenly I am told right away, you're a minority.
Guest:And that is, you know, coming from Malaysia and having lived in Hong Kong.
Marc:And you're like, I'm a star.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I didn't say that, but there are more people that looks like me than you globally.
Guest:In the world, yeah, sure.
Guest:And you realize that there were not so many roles.
Guest:There were not so many faces that looked Asian that was on TV or on the screen.
Guest:So technically, there are no roles, right?
Guest:Then I was very fortunate I was offered to do Tomorrow Never Dies.
Guest:Now I have a big movie under my belt.
Guest:Come on, right?
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then I realized it's not about having them knowing who you are, but what are the roles that are there.
Marc:Yeah, no one's writing the movies.
Guest:No.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And also they were determined, you look Asian, so you need an Asian role.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And they always had to justify why an Asian person would be Asian.
Guest:There.
Guest:Are we in Chinatown?
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:It wasn't just because you can play the role.
Guest:It doesn't matter the color of your skin or your race or whatever it is.
Guest:So at that point, it was very, very, it was tough.
Guest:And after Tomorrow Never Dies, I didn't do a movie until two years later until I did Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.
Marc:What a great movie that was.
Marc:Thank you.
Guest:Ang Lee.
Marc:That was really something.
Marc:He's an interesting guy, that Ang Lee.
Guest:Yes, he's a thinker.
Marc:Yeah, well, I mean, you know, it wasn't his genre, but he appreciated it and wanted to elevate it.
Guest:But if you think, what is his genre?
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:I know.
Marc:That's it.
Guest:He's a guy.
Marc:He wants to try things.
Guest:But that's how I think as a filmmaker and as a storyteller or as an actor, that's what you should do.
Guest:You have to constantly.
Marc:Well, the fear of doing that is that, you know, you don't develop like guys who do the same thing over and over again.
Marc:They get a business set up.
Marc:But the guys who do a little bit of everything.
Guest:Oh, you mean they create a brand for themselves?
Marc:Kind of, yeah.
Guest:But then you get stuck in that brand.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, yeah, but a lot of them don't care because they're making millions of dollars.
Marc:But somebody like him is an artist, and it's just fortunate that he's such a brilliant director that it didn't matter.
Marc:The brand was his amazing ability.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:His flexibility.
Marc:So that movie, did that change anything in terms of being seen as somebody who needed to be specifically cast as a minority?
Yeah.
Guest:No, it didn't change anything because in their minds, it was a foreign film, right?
Guest:I mean, to Hollywood, it was a foreign film.
Guest:It was a period piece.
Guest:It was like, you know, and we got nominated for all like the best picture, the best director, the best DP, the best costume, the best everything.
Guest:But none of the actors were ever sort of like,
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:It was very interesting.
Marc:But it's so interesting because that time, like, you know, you went on, you know, to do tons of movies, Hollywood movies of different kinds.
Guest:I was very lucky.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But still, like, it took... It's just very interesting that, you know, I know you were in the Shang-Chi and the... Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, that's... And you were great.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:But that's Asia movie.
Marc:But it's different now.
Marc:Because they're making... It's a Marvel movie.
Marc:I know.
Marc:But it's... But it's... There is... There has been a shift.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Oh, no, no, no.
Guest:There is a definitive change.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The sea of change has occurred.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:From... I think when...
Guest:The most apparent happened when I was doing the press for Crazy Rich Asians.
Guest:And generally, every time I walk into the room, the young journalist will say, my parents are so excited.
Guest:I am interviewing you.
Guest:And then you go, it's true.
Guest:Because Crouching Tiger came 22 years ago.
Guest:Tomorrow Never Dies was like 25 years ago.
Marc:These are Asian journalists?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:Or just generally speaking?
Guest:Oh, nice.
Guest:I think...
Guest:Because Asian journalists especially, right?
Guest:And then it was like Memoirs of a Geisha, Sunshine, all this.
Guest:This is like almost the previous generation of filmgoers and people who loved movies.
Guest:But I still kept playing.
Guest:And then when I did Crazy Rich Asians, which was...
Guest:more the Today movie, like the Young People movie.
Guest:It was like, wow, that's so cool, you know, that Crazy Rich Asians is funny, it's fun.
Guest:And then there's the Scary Mother, you know?
Guest:And it was a very iconic character and very sort of like...
Guest:memorable sure and also historical for asian people right no they everyone knows that yes yeah because the last all asian cast was 26 years ago with the joy luck club isn't that crazy yes but then with shang chi that was another step forward we have our own superhero that's asian but it wasn't just because they were asians it was set in contemporary america yeah right in new york and then you go to other places but it is here yeah
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it's today.
Guest:It's not like you've gone back in time.
Guest:And that's only when you see Asian people.
Marc:No, that's right.
Marc:But it did have that mythic vibe, too.
Guest:It did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it was like, how do you introduce a culture that's so ancient?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And this makes it more fun and interesting.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that's what the whole Marvel Universe is about as well.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I liked it.
Marc:I liked the movie because it is essentially a martial arts movie.
Guest:It is.
Guest:Yeah, Destin was really, really good.
Guest:Crescent was the director.
Guest:And he's, you know, you have the dramatic, but at the same time, the mysticism, you know, the martial arts and all those kind of things, which is so recognizable in Asia.
Guest:And globally, too.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:So then, it was during Crazy Rich Asians when I was doing the press and things like this set, and I was sent this script.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And...
Guest:I read it and, you know, I've been in the business long enough to go...
Guest:This could be—it's so wacky.
Guest:It's so out there.
Guest:You know how we always say, I want something that's original.
Guest:Come on.
Marc:Totally original.
Marc:And also plays to all your strengths, respects where you're at in your career now, gives you an opportunity to do a dramatic role with some depth, and sort of addresses the idea of you're not an Asian.
Marc:You're an actor, a woman, with a specific—
Marc:that is not uncommon to many women of all kinds, and yet there's this whole other element to it, and you have the skill set to do it.
Guest:Oh, thank you.
Guest:Thank you for putting it all together.
Guest:It is, yes.
Guest:And you know, my first instinct was like, these two Daniels, please let them be geniuses.
Marc:And they are geniuses.
Guest:They are.
Guest:They are so attuned to...
Guest:the balance of chaos, you know?
Guest:It's like respite and all this.
Guest:And it's like, how do you make it?
Guest:It's like, it's okay to laugh.
Guest:It's okay to laugh at yourself.
Guest:And how absurd this whole, our world is chaotic.
Guest:You know, if you look at it, yes.
Guest:And yes, we can't communicate with each other.
Guest:It's called what?
Guest:Generational trauma.
Guest:Right?
Guest:And all the young people are like, their life, everything is in their face.
Guest:With a flick of the, because in the past,
Guest:the last generation didn't really get to travel.
Guest:They focused on how do we make a better life so that you have a better life, right?
Guest:But now with the flick of the finger, they're in Asia, they're in Bali, they're in, you know, they can go, they travel, their minds are being exposed to so many things.
Guest:So they always feel that, why are you so critical of me?
Guest:You always tell me, I don't know what I'm doing.
Guest:You tell me I'm wrong.
Guest:It's almost like I'm just not good enough for you, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm just like useless.
Guest:So they get in their heads.
Guest:Whereas the parents, especially the immigrant parents, it's like a duality.
Guest:Are they American or are they Asian?
Guest:And why do they have to choose?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They are Asian-American, right?
Guest:They should know their culture.
Guest:They don't have to be ashamed of it.
Guest:But in the past, it was like, fit in.
Guest:Just fit in.
Guest:So that people don't think you're weird, you know?
Guest:So it always that... You gotta pass somehow.
Guest:Yeah, that internal conflict that they have.
Guest:And then they also have a problem of communication with their parents.
Guest:It's like in Asia, parents don't communicate how... They don't know how to say, well, I love you.
Guest:I think you're great.
Guest:Or I think... They'll be like, you're getting fat.
Guest:You need to cut your hair.
Guest:It sounds terrible.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But their motivation is, I just want you to be better because I know you can.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:But it's just that it doesn't come out like that, mom.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I'm 60.
Guest:When I go home, my mom will lay out my clothes for me.
Guest:And I'm like, I think I can dress myself at this point.
Guest:And she'll say, why didn't you comb your hair?
Guest:I'm like, oh, boy.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Still, huh?
Guest:Still.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And also what you're saying about the younger generation is that that is the point of view of the two Daniels, right?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So they are able to have a freedom of mind in terms of imagination that is thoroughly modern and without restriction.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And also they have very strong mothers.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So they got it.
Guest:Daniel Kwan's mother is like powerful.
Guest:And they're surrounded by their wives, their girlfriends.
Guest:You know, they are independent working women who are very successful with what they do.
Guest:So, you know, it's like...
Guest:They see this and they're going like, we have to pay respect.
Guest:And it's, I think if they did, when they first started off, yes, they wrote the, I tease them, I say, you wrote the generic action film, right?
Guest:You wrote it for a guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which is the normal thing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's why, you know, normally you don't get a script where it's already written for a woman.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's already like that.
Marc:Did they write it for a guy?
Guest:At the beginning.
Guest:Then they threw it away.
Guest:So they've been working on this for like five years, I want to say.
Guest:Oh, that's crazy.
Guest:So when they finally, you know, they said, you know what?
Guest:We're just going to like sit down, throw away, and then put in everything that, you know, when you're young.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's like, this is the time when you go for it.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And you're hungry.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And everything that people say you can't do, shouldn't do.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And you go, why not?
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:And let's find a platform.
Guest:And they were so smart with the multiverse.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like a science fiction.
Guest:Anything goes, right?
Guest:Right.
Guest:I can let my mind go to a place.
Guest:Which they did.
Marc:It's crazy.
Guest:And you, when you're reading, you're like, hot dog fingers.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:All right.
Guest:It's all there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, the body parts.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The butt plugs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They were all there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, but then as you read all this, you know, it's like it's very easy to see superficially.
Guest:Yes, it's wacky.
Guest:It's like really weird.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But the core of it that resonates, you know, the heart that's beating is family.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:It's never giving up on family.
Guest:And actually turn around and say, whatever you are, however you are, it's enough.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I will, whatever universe, I will always...
Guest:want to be with you, right?
Guest:And I think that was what it reached out to people.
Marc:Sort of an unconditional love of family, if it's possible, which is hard.
Guest:Nothing is easy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it was good to see everybody, you know, what's his name from way back?
Guest:Key?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That was crazy.
Marc:Jamie Lee Curtis.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Oh, it was like, you know, the cast?
Yeah.
Guest:When we came together, it's almost like you don't have to say, oh, nice to meet you and things like that.
Guest:You know, you look at each other and go, we are here and we are here for each other.
Marc:Great.
Marc:It was great.
Marc:All the stuff was great.
Marc:And it was an honor to talk to you.
Marc:I don't want to keep you too long.
Marc:When do you got to fly?
Guest:Now.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:We good?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, oh, yes.
Marc:We're good.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Yeah, we did.
Marc:It was great.
Marc:It was great talking to you.
Marc:And good luck with the thing.
Marc:thank you the thing yeah the thing i'll see you at the thing all right amazing right wow i mean what a life what a person what a force you feel it man you feel it uh everything everywhere all at once is now on showtime and uh yeah hang out for a minute
Marc:So look, we've got the directors of Everything Everywhere All at Once coming up on Thursday.
Marc:And if you want to hear me talk about their earlier movie, Swiss Army Man, I had Paul Dano on back when that movie came out.
Marc:It's episode 723.
Marc:It's driven by a lot of gas.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And, you know, literally, but, you know, because I never really thought about it that way until I told my producer, he asked me if I saw the farting movie.
Yeah.
Guest:yeah are you getting a lot of that i am and and i'm i'm all for that you know in fact i love i love telling people that like this is this is my this is my fart film like it's like something you're supposed to check off like a box you know like yeah i did my sci-fi film you know my my western or my like this is my fart film you know i don't know that anyone's ever said that before i think you might be the only one that's able to say that this is my fart film
Guest:I love it.
Guest:I don't know what it says about me, but it, I mean, I was so excited by the sense of humor in the film.
Guest:And it's like a, it's like some secret part of ourselves that we don't always get to, you know, let come out to play or that you're just like with your friends, but not out in the world.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:So something actually kind of private and vulnerable about it too.
Guest:Is that farting?
Guest:Well, yeah, sure.
Guest:No, no, I know.
Guest:I agree with you.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because there's...
Marc:There's this idea that it's gratuitous to do fart jokes, but fart jokes are probably the oldest type of joke there are, you know, outside of hostile jokes, you know, where people are getting laughs just for hitting other people.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I think the fart has been funny as soon as humans are able to laugh.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Why is that?
Guest:Because it is just a bodily function, right?
Marc:I know, but it's surprising.
Marc:Sometimes they happen at the wrong time.
Marc:They all sound different.
Marc:They stink.
Marc:You know, they're, I think, fundamentally embarrassing.
Marc:I mean, there is a certain amount of pride in them, either for length, tone, or the power of the smell.
Marc:But that's in small circles.
Marc:That's not for everybody.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:That's available in the free podcast feed in whatever app or platform you're using right now.
Marc:For ad-free episodes, sign up for WTF Plus by clicking the link in the episode description or going to WTFPod.com and clicking on WTF Plus.
Marc:We'll be dropping an Ask Mark Anything episode tomorrow for full Marin subscribers.
Marc:Then more Oscar nominees next week.
Marc:Austin Butler from Elvis and Hong Chao from The Whale.
Marc:Stratocaster.
guitar solo
Thank you.
Thank you.
Guest:Boomer lives.
Guest:Monkey and La Fonda.
Guest:Cat angels.
Guest:Cat angels.
Guest:Cat angels everywhere.