Episode 1404 - Brendan Fraser
Marc:Lock the gates!
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck, buddies?
Marc:What the fuck, Knicks?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast.
Marc:Welcome to it.
Marc:It's called WTF.
Marc:Are you in the right place?
Marc:Did you stop the dial at the right show?
Marc:Are you at the right place on the dial?
Marc:Today, Brendan Fraser is here.
Marc:Newly Oscar-nominated Brendan Fraser for Best Actor for his performance in The Whale, which I saw.
Marc:And it's weird.
Marc:I do not...
Marc:It turns out I'm not really in the loop of what people are saying about movies.
Marc:Bits and pieces.
Marc:I don't do any real reading about films that I haven't seen yet, generally speaking.
Marc:And I didn't know anything about this movie.
Marc:I knew some people were upset that he was not as affected by obesity as he should be to play the part that he was playing.
Marc:But I don't know that that really set one way or the other with me.
Marc:I don't I don't know if I felt one way or the other, but I didn't know anything about the movie.
Marc:I know what it was about.
Marc:I know anything.
Marc:And I went in and I watched it and I found it moving a compelling and heartbreaking portrait of grief and shame and guilt.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:It was it was clearly I would have liked to have seen the play, but I thought he did a great job.
Marc:I thought everyone in the movie did a great job.
Marc:And it made me realize some things.
Marc:And I talked to him about it, about how the problem or the disease or however you want to frame it, the reality of obesity has profoundly affected me personally and to in a deep way to my core.
Marc:And I talked to Brennan about this because it was a realization I had.
Marc:And outside of it, outside of that, when I was watching the movie, I very quickly was no longer, you know, kind of focusing on...
Marc:You know, the characters wait, but just the weight of his heart.
Marc:I like the movie.
Marc:New cat mugs from Brian Jones go on sale today at noon Eastern today.
Marc:And this time they'll only be available for 24 hours.
Marc:So that's noon today until noon tomorrow, Friday at WTF mugs dot co.
Marc:WTFmugs.co.
Marc:I believe... I don't know what series he's working on.
Marc:Sometimes he does the retro cat mugs.
Marc:Other times you get the Buster and Sammy cat mugs.
Marc:We got to get Charlie on there.
Marc:Charlie Beans Roscoe is okay.
Marc:He's a pain in the ass.
Marc:He's an asshole almost all day long.
Marc:But at 4.30, 5 in the morning...
Marc:He's purring and rubbing my face with his face and sometimes sticking his nose into my mouth.
Marc:Not great.
Marc:Not great.
Marc:But I understand he's awkward.
Marc:And this is his way of showing affection.
Marc:And it's the middle of the night.
Marc:But then the rest of the day, full on kid and asshole.
Marc:So, but anyways, this design that won't be offered again, I'm hearing, and I haven't seen the design of the mugs.
Marc:It's very limited.
Marc:It's a limited batch of
Marc:All right.
Marc:Brian Jones made a limited batch of the mugs.
Marc:So I would go grab one at wtfmugs.co.
Marc:Only available starting noon today for 24 hours.
Marc:Can you dig it?
Marc:Okay.
Marc:What do I got to get you up to speed on?
Marc:Oh, Eliza Schlesinger.
Marc:who sometimes just goes by Eliza these days, is a fierce and intense comedian and person.
Marc:Her and I are friends.
Marc:We've had our disagreements and we've worked through them.
Marc:But I get her and she gets me.
Marc:And, you know, she is a force of nature.
Marc:You know her, Eliza Schlesinger.
Marc:Her husband is a very sweet guy.
Marc:He's not, I don't know him to be intense or a theorist, but he's very pleasant, very grounded, and he's a big fan of the show, and he's a chef.
Marc:I have gone to, when I was in the middle of the grief, me and Noah, Noah Galutan is his name,
Marc:went to the farmer's market, you know, good guy.
Marc:And we text occasionally.
Marc:And he has written a couple of cookbooks with other people, but he's written his own cookbook.
Marc:It's the don't panic pantry cookbook.
Marc:It came in the mail.
Marc:Like this is not paid plug.
Marc:This is me supporting other artists.
Marc:This guy's, he's married to Eliza, you know, which has got to be, um, you know, be careful, Mark.
Um,
Marc:Look, all I know is a sweet guy and he wrote this cookbook and it came in the mail in a box from the publisher with a bag of, what do you call it?
Marc:Heirloom beans, some high-end pasta, some olive oil, a spatula.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And so, and the book, The Don't Panic Pantry.
Marc:And I'm a cook.
Marc:I like to cook.
Yeah.
Marc:And right away, I get into it, and I'm like, because of what happened after the colonoscopy, I'm changing my diet.
Marc:And I'm like, right away, he's like, what about beans?
Marc:And there's a recipe for beans.
Marc:And it just tells you to cook basic beans.
Marc:And he doesn't soak them.
Marc:So right away, I'm texting him, you know, soak your beans.
Marc:He's like, you don't have to.
Marc:That's a myth.
Marc:I'm like, really?
Marc:Yep.
Marc:And it doesn't even stop the gassiness.
Marc:I'm like, really?
Marc:Yep.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:And I cooked the beans like Noah told me to in the Don't Panic Pantry cookbook.
Marc:They came out great.
Marc:And then I made his tahini dressing from the cookbook.
Marc:It's mostly the subheading is mostly vegetarian comfort food that happens to be pretty good for you.
Marc:And Eliza wrote the forward.
Marc:And there's all these pictures of them.
Marc:living a regular life in their house.
Marc:She's sitting there having coffee and he's cooking things like regular people.
Marc:Anyway, I'm doing this because I like them.
Marc:And, uh, and the cookbook, it just looks to be right up my alley and you can pre-order it wherever you pre-order books.
Marc:The don't panic pantry cookbook, Noah Galutin.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:With a forward by Eliza.
Marc:A frenetic, fierce forward by the Intensalizes Lessinger.
Marc:I'm saying this all in a nice way, Noah, so don't get her all worked up.
Marc:I know you're listening.
Marc:Because he listens.
Marc:He enjoys the show.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Something else.
Marc:What else is happening?
Marc:I'll tell you.
Marc:The trailer for my special is out.
Marc:We've got a date for the special.
Marc:The HBO special is coming out on HBO.
Marc:It's premiering on HBO proper February 11th.
Marc:I imagine it'll show up on HBO Max pretty shortly after.
Marc:But I've posted the trailer on Twitter.
Marc:It's a great trailer.
Marc:The music sounds good.
Marc:Stephen Fine Arts, who directed it, did a beautiful job.
Marc:And I'm very happy with it.
Marc:And you can watch the trailer for the special and get a good sense of what the special is.
Marc:It's happening.
Marc:My special, From Bleak to Dark, is premiering on HBO on February 11th.
Marc:Okay?
Marc:Also, Andrea Riceboro comes around from the outside, comes from the back, gets the Academy Award nomination for Two Leslie.
Marc:How fucking exciting is that?
Marc:She ran a grassroots campaign, or people did for her, and she got the nom.
Marc:So the movie that I'm in with her is now an Oscar-nominated movie.
Marc:I've been in a few of those, by the way.
Marc:I've been in a couple of Oscar-winning movies.
Marc:The Joker.
Marc:I was in Joker and I was in Almost Famous, both Oscar-winning movies.
Marc:But this is very exciting for the film because it's a small film and the distributor, Momentum Pictures, totally dropped the ball and left the movie hanging on all levels.
Marc:All levels.
Marc:Just the worst.
Marc:And somehow or another, through actors coming together as a community, deservedly so, Andrea Rice Burroughs has been nominated for an Oscar for Best Actress.
Marc:Very exciting and thrilled to be part of it and happy for everybody involved.
Marc:So the last time I talked to you, I believe I was...
Marc:In the middle of the fasting and pooping for a colonoscopy, I'm sorry, if you're triggered by talk of invasive probing exams with consent, then this might not be for you.
Marc:But here's the deal.
Marc:So I go back to this doctor I went to.
Marc:Now, I don't know if I told you, but the doctor, he's a funny doctor.
Marc:You know, I mean, well, he tries to be funny.
Marc:Like the last time when I went in for the first colonoscopy, he asked me if I was a virgin.
Marc:You know, OK, you know, not particularly appropriate, but doctors are doctors.
Marc:And it was funny enough.
Marc:And I'm sure he used it a million times.
Marc:So he asked me if, you know, if I'd been if I'd had one before.
Marc:I said, yeah, you did it like eight years ago.
Marc:He's like, oh, so you're you're back.
Marc:And I'm like, yes, I am.
Marc:And he said, well, you know, I go to the surgery center and he's talking to me and I meet the anesthesiologist and I meet the nurse who asked me, did you consent to someone watching the procedure?
Marc:I'm like, what is this?
Marc:Like, do they buy tickets?
Marc:How does this work?
Marc:Are you running a side hustle where people come in and watch colonoscopies?
Marc:What are you talking about?
Marc:Well, the doc has a new assistant who, you know, he's getting up to speed.
Marc:And I said, I didn't know anything about that.
Marc:So he asked me and he says, can I, new assistant, he introduces me.
Marc:She's standing there.
Marc:Do you mind if she watches?
Marc:I'm like, look, man, sure.
Marc:It's fine.
Marc:Go, yes.
Marc:Everyone has to learn.
Marc:If you want to learn from my ass, then I'm flattered.
Marc:I hope it's, I hope it's nothing terrible, but there's enough to, that you have to do there to get some hands-on
Marc:hands-in experience.
Marc:So anyway, I asked him because James, my buddy James, he says to me, he says, are you getting an endoscopy?
Marc:I'm like, do I need an endoscopy?
Marc:He's like, well, you're going to be in there.
Marc:I'm like, what's an endoscopy?
Marc:That's where they go down your esophagus.
Marc:And the same guy does it, apparently.
Marc:So I asked the doc, I said, should I get an endoscopy?
Marc:He says, well, why not?
Marc:I guess.
Marc:I mean, you don't need one.
Marc:I'm not referring you for one.
Marc:Do you have acid reflux?
Marc:I'm like, no.
Marc:He says, do you have anything wrong with you?
Marc:I'm like, no.
Marc:He said, look, it can't hurt.
Marc:It can't hurt.
Marc:And I'm like, all right.
Marc:So let's do the endoscopy.
Marc:And then he literally turns to the nurse who's just outside of the current area.
Marc:He goes, all right, we're changing this to a double.
Marc:We're doing a double.
Marc:I like that these are sort of for invoice items.
Marc:It's not a single anymore.
Marc:It's not just the bottom end.
Marc:We're going in both ends.
Marc:Double penetration on this one.
Marc:I'm going to have to give you, you know, afterwards you're going to have to kick the anesthesiologist another 50 bucks.
Marc:I'm like, fine, let's do it.
Marc:So then I go in, they roll me into where the surgery is going to take place or the procedure, and they're playing the Eagles.
Marc:They're playing the fucking Eagles.
Marc:Peaceful, easy feeling.
Marc:And I'm like, oh, this is the thing.
Marc:This is what they do.
Marc:So the doc comes in.
Marc:The anesthesiologist is getting me loaded up because he didn't know it was a double.
Marc:So they just sort of they put the he was just going to put a mask on me.
Marc:But then they're like, we're doing a double.
Marc:And so they had to put the thing in my mouth so they could run the fucking tube down.
Marc:And they got me hooked up on the IV.
Marc:And the doc is like, you ready for a peaceful, easy feeling?
Marc:I'm like, yeah, man, I am.
Marc:And then he turns to the anesthesiologist.
Marc:He's like, we're going to get him into it.
Marc:We're going to give him a peaceful, easy feeling.
Marc:Anesthesiologist is like, yep, peaceful, easy feeling.
Marc:I'm like, this is a great show, fellas.
Marc:I'm happy.
Marc:He's like, can you turn to the side?
Marc:Oh, see, this is where the show gets a little dicey.
Marc:This is where it gets a little more involved.
Marc:Turn over on your side.
Marc:Good.
Marc:And then the doctor comes around.
Marc:He's looking at me.
Marc:He says, like, all right, the anesthesiologist just hooked you up to the drug.
Marc:I guess there's propanol.
Marc:He's like, anything?
Marc:And I'm like, no, not yet.
Marc:And the doctor's like, all right, well, everything's going to be fine.
Marc:And we'll see what's up.
Marc:And I'm like, and now all of a sudden I felt it.
Marc:I'm like, oh, man, it's coming on.
Marc:It's, oh, man.
Marc:Next thing I know, I hear, Mark, wake up.
Marc:Mark, wake up.
Marc:I open my eyes to the anesthesiologist.
Marc:I'm like, hey.
Marc:He's like, hey.
Marc:I'm like, are we done?
Marc:How'd it go?
Marc:How long was I out?
Marc:What happened?
Marc:What's what happened in here?
Marc:How many people were watching?
Marc:Hope it was just that one lady.
Marc:I only I only said yes about one lady.
Marc:And I'm coming out of it, and the doc comes around, and he's like, how are you feeling?
Marc:I'm like, I'm fine.
Marc:And he's like, what's up?
Marc:He's like, well, here's some pictures.
Marc:Looks good.
Marc:Esophagus looks great.
Marc:Colon looks good, except we had a little benign polyp here.
Marc:Took care of it.
Marc:I'm like, nice.
Marc:So she got to really learn something today.
Marc:They just took it off.
Marc:So one polyp removed.
Marc:No badness.
Marc:Everything's clean and good.
Marc:Five years I'm good for.
Marc:Esophagus looks good.
Marc:I'm loopy as fuck.
Marc:My buddy Jerry Stahl picks me up.
Marc:I got a freebie, man.
Marc:I'm loopy.
Marc:We're in Beverly Hills, and I'm like, let's go to the butcher's daughter and just eat some vegan food.
Marc:So I'm off to a good start for my clean colon, and I'm buzzed on propofol, which is very good.
Marc:I'm with it.
Marc:Enough to eat and order and talk.
Marc:I feel good.
Marc:I feel all right.
Marc:I'm engaged in the world.
Marc:And we had this huge meal because I hadn't eaten a day and a half.
Marc:And we're in Beverly Hills.
Marc:And I believe I hallucinated that we went into the John Varvato store and I bought a suit with a jacket that was a Nehru collared jacket, a Nehru jacket, and a pair of velvet pants.
Marc:I wild, right?
Marc:That I thought I was normal, but I guess I was still kind of high on the propofol because I hallucinated that I bought a Nehru jacket, a suit and a pair of velvet pants.
Marc:It's crazy.
Marc:And then I got home.
Marc:Jerry dropped me off and I'm getting out of the car.
Marc:He's going to he said, you know, do you want don't forget your bags of and I'm like, what?
Marc:And I had bought a suit with a neighbor jacket and a pair of velvet pants.
Marc:Yeah, I'm a 59 year old man that you will see in the in the probably near future somewhere in public wearing a pair of velvet pants full circle.
Marc:I wore leather pants and a velvet Nehru jacket on Conan a long time ago.
Marc:And I think I'm going to wear a non-velvet Nehru jacket and perhaps some velvet pants on Fallon next month.
Marc:So look out for that stuff.
Marc:I did that.
Marc:It was not a hallucination, but that propofol is pretty good.
Marc:Made me believe I could wear velvet pants.
Marc:You know?
Marc:All right.
Marc:That all happened.
Marc:And also, by the way, get your colonoscopies.
Marc:Get your endoscopies.
Marc:Get your stress tests.
Marc:Fellas, ladies, but speaking, get your prostate exam.
Marc:Just do it, man.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Help me out.
Marc:Help yourself out.
Marc:So look, Brendan Fraser and I had an intense conversation.
Marc:It's heavy, man, but it was good.
Marc:Again, he is in The Whale, and that's now playing in theaters, nominated for the Academy Award for Best Actor.
Marc:And also, I should tell you that we talk about Brendan alleging that he was sexually assaulted by the former president of the Hollywood Foreign Press Association, Philip Burke, who has denied the allegation.
Marc:But we talk about it.
Marc:So that's a heads up for a few reasons.
Marc:But now you know it's coming.
Marc:This is me talking to Brendan Fraser.
Guest:congratulations on the award awards award one now yeah the first for me the critics choice well I've never really waited to hear if or not my name's gonna be called aloud yeah from podium so I mean you've never oh that's interesting the way to look at it you've never been in a room where you're waiting for that correct yeah no I mean I mean unless I was there
Guest:with an ensemble which actually I was never on stage for for the couple of occasions that that happened I was working somewhere else and the award ceremony happened but I think that was for a crash a SAG award I think that was a big ensemble
Guest:Large.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And a lot of you guys didn't even work with each other.
Marc:No, yeah.
Guest:It was one of the sort of, I don't know if it's a Rashomon story, but I mean, it's... It's a thread through lives.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right?
Guest:It follows a thread.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I remember liking that movie.
Marc:I don't know if I can remember the movie specifically.
Marc:I have a hard time with that as I get older.
Guest:Oh, I feel you.
Guest:I do.
Guest:I have a hard time with just vocabulary, too.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:Oh yeah, words will leave.
Marc:It's the worst.
Marc:You mean like sentences or words?
Marc:Words for me, not sentences.
Marc:Yeah, words.
Marc:Yeah, where you just sit there and you're like, fuck.
Guest:I know, I know this, but why am I not summoning?
Marc:Yeah, it's like my dad started this sort of dementia process.
Marc:So now, because I'm 59, you know, you get, you know, when that happens, you're like, oh no, is it happening?
Marc:Is this it?
Marc:Is this the beginning?
Marc:But I'm okay so far.
Guest:How are your hinges and joints holding up?
Guest:Mine are a little bit janky.
Marc:Bad, dude.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like every day.
Guest:Plus the weather makes them worse.
Marc:I guess so.
Guest:It's like a joke, and I'm like, oh, it's going to rain.
Guest:My knee hurts.
Guest:But no, it really does.
Guest:I was just rubbing my knee really hard in the car on the way over here.
Marc:Because I've heard that, and I didn't know if there was credence to it.
Marc:Bariatric.
Marc:Bariatric.
Guest:Barometric pressure or something.
Marc:That makes sense.
Marc:That was a slip.
Guest:Bariatric.
Guest:It's a word that's been on my mind lately.
Marc:It's different.
Marc:No, I was talking about that yesterday, though.
Marc:Because I try to exercise, and because I'm 59, I'm sore every day.
Marc:Every fucking day.
Guest:I know.
Guest:You?
Guest:I'm okay.
Guest:I was in a lot of pain for some time, but I took care of it.
Guest:It was all surgical fixes and a lot of...
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, like you kind of like name a favorite modality of how to do physical therapy and I probably know something about it if I didn't do it myself.
Marc:When did you start injuring yourself?
Guest:Movies.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And just growing older, too.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But all that, because of the injuries, that means they're going to kind of hurt sometimes.
Yeah.
Guest:Um, well, if you take care, I mean, I took care of it in my forties primarily and the, you know, all the doctors and advisors and whatever, they were like, you know, normally this is something that you would do when you're in your sixties or up, but you can do it now if you must.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But it's good to preemptively get it out of the way because it's harder to bounce back from when you are older.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, it's possible, for sure.
Guest:There are 80-year-olds who get hip and knee replacements all the time.
Marc:They go bowling, play golf, all that.
Marc:Oh, so you had to get all that stuff done.
Marc:It was just relative to injuring yourself on sets, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I was very good at packing up my knees with straps and tape and all that stuff.
Guest:I knew that one aisle in the CVS really well.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, oh, the new wrist bracelets are out.
Guest:Whee!
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So what do you got?
Guest:Knees and wrists?
Guest:No.
Guest:Wrists are good.
Guest:Wrists are good.
Guest:Left knee partial replacement.
Guest:And here's my joke.
Guest:I couldn't afford the whole thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a good one.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a good one.
Guest:And the spine in one to three places is bolted together with hardware.
Guest:And that was from an injury?
Guest:Yeah, well, yes.
Guest:That and I'm sure a genetic predisposition for soft tissue issues grinding away.
Guest:It was pretty much just like the sort of bone on bone, if not the spine that had... Oh, man.
Guest:What's it called?
Guest:Bone on bone's not good.
Guest:No, it's noisy and it hurts.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And running's hard because you have no real spongy pads in between our joints.
Guest:It doesn't want to protect your shock absorbers, really.
Marc:So, well, not to have a medical conversation, but does that stuff just naturally start to go away with age?
Marc:I don't think so.
Marc:Okay, good.
Marc:I think it just compounds.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:You know, I went to the movie yesterday to the whale.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:And I thought you were great.
Marc:And I liked the movie.
Marc:I went in with no preconceptions.
Marc:I had no idea what the story was.
Marc:I didn't read any press on it.
Marc:So my experience was pretty pure.
Marc:And I was very affected, obviously.
Marc:It's hard not to be affected by the film.
Marc:But what was interesting is that
Marc:You know, in retrospect, you know, having grown up as somebody who is, you know, I have direct, I just realized this this morning, that I have direct personality repercussions from a person affected by obesity.
Marc:My mother was, had the issues when she was younger, and because of that,
Marc:Sort of had a lifelong eating disorder around it, deprivation.
Marc:And my emotional construct was built by somebody, you know, around food and the issue of obesity in a very deep way.
Marc:And I didn't put it together till today.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But did the deprivation physically manifest into any other deprivation emotionally?
Guest:I mean, it's a permeating kind of disorder.
Marc:It is, and it was her and is.
Marc:I mean, she's still around.
Marc:It defined her life.
Marc:The sort of maintenance of a very sort of inappropriately low weight.
Marc:And it was how she judged the world and herself and me.
Marc:It's kind of like a ruler, a yardstick to the world.
Marc:Kind of, yeah.
Marc:And also, it's all new to me as of this morning in terms of you just mentioning...
Marc:The idea of emotional deprivation.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:What kind of research did you do in terms of, because this is a movie about grief primarily, right?
Guest:Redemption and love also.
Guest:It's five characters in the quest for salvation in their own way.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Did you feel that when you read it?
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:Well, I'll get to that in a second, but I didn't know that much about... I, like you, went into it kind of eyes wide open.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I knew very little about it apart from like, you know, a log line that there's a man who's been...
Guest:He's been overeating, and it's harming him, and he lives alone, and he is having regrets for his life choices.
Guest:And in a sort of epiphany, he finally owns that if he doesn't reconnect with his daughter, he's very...
Guest:soul is at stake, or is it, or is it not, but he's conflicted about that, and he makes him infinitely human, which I liked.
Guest:And he's a guy that's flawed, he's funny, he's like some, we all know, I'll speak for myself, but I've known many versions of Charlie.
Guest:I've had them as mentors, I've had them as friends, family members.
Guest:People I've met for sure, worked with, people I've come and gone and loved and admired, but Charlie's a, I'm sorry, I'm looking at your harmonica.
Marc:Charlie Musselwhite.
Marc:Yeah, he gave me that.
Marc:That's cool.
Guest:Speaking of Charlie's.
Guest:So I thought that I was familiar coming to the project with those sensibilities in mind.
Guest:I failed to mention also that he also has on paper at least five days to do this.
Guest:He doesn't know it yet, but the clock is ticking for him, given how poor he is in health.
Marc:When you talked to Darren, that was a conversation?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That this time limit was finite.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:It wasn't like there was a ticking clock.
Guest:The fuse wasn't lit per se, but it's obvious with Charlie's mobility issues, his clear cardiovascular health severely compromised, and the act of breathing and ambulation is extreme for him to just take to his feet.
Guest:It requires almost like a deadlifter.
Guest:It's a mentality for how heavy his body is.
Marc:You played that very well.
Marc:Thanks.
Marc:Did you have actual weight on you?
Marc:I know these are probably questions you've answered a lot.
Guest:No, I'll do my best.
Guest:Weight.
Guest:Oh, you mean like insofar as all the costume and apparatus?
Guest:It was cumbersome.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:But was it loaded up?
No.
Guest:No, it wasn't overdone, but when we rehearsed, I would wear weight vest and, you know, like one of those workout things, and the big muscle guys would run upstairs and all that, and ankle and wrist weights.
Marc:Well, I think the amazing accomplishment of the performance and the writing is that, in thinking about it the day after, those issues are right up front.
Marc:I mean, it is, on some level, what you see.
Marc:But fairly quickly, you do see this guy as a guy.
Marc:And a guy with a broad emotional range and obviously deep problems.
Marc:But it counteracts...
Marc:what could be seen as the hardships and the horror of the life he's living.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Because I didn't find it.
Marc:And I'm a guy that was brought up by a woman who was terrified of weight.
Marc:And I didn't... It very quickly...
Marc:it became a secondary thing to the emotional weight of the story.
Marc:And that is a testament to you.
Marc:Oh, thank you.
Marc:Do you know what I'm saying?
Guest:Well, I do.
Guest:I understand that this is, you know, I think I can explain how you understand.
Guest:If Charlie is a product of his disorder, it's not necessarily obesity.
Guest:Of the view that it's more of...
Guest:he wears on his body the trauma that he has been consuming and keeping inside of him and it's manifest outwardly on him.
Guest:So, I mean, it's clearly he's in a lot of pain to talk about it for how he presents to the world and, you know, how encumbered he is.
Guest:I mean, his body weight is indicative of the issues that he has accompanying the physical and the spiritual soul, psychological issues.
Marc:His cross to bear to a degree.
Marc:Just as big.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because there is all those themes.
Guest:Samantha Morton made a point in London on a press thing.
Guest:She said, he's like Jesus.
Guest:He just keeps taking it and taking it and taking it.
Yeah.
Guest:I don't know how Christians will feel about that, but I hope not.
Marc:That scene with you and her was kind of amazing.
Guest:I feel disappointed that it didn't work out in our imaginary marriage because of how good Samantha is.
Marc:It was stunning.
Guest:She arrived with a 40-year relationship in place for the two, 35, whatever.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, and like the conflict emotionally for her and you in that moment.
Guest:She laments what could have been.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she doesn't take ownership of her own, I don't want to say avarice, but clearly her own issues with alcohol.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:So that intimates that she was obviously, I don't know, that's a whole other kettle of fish.
Guest:That was one of the issues why they didn't stay together early on.
Guest:Had to factor in some way or another.
Marc:Yeah, it's complicated around the issues of addiction and sexuality.
Marc:Also a type of addiction.
Marc:Yeah, but also just like, you know, following your heart.
Marc:You know, I mean, because you're carrying the burden of shame, of grief.
Marc:Guilt.
Marc:Broken heart, guilt, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean...
Marc:Did you see it on stage?
Marc:I did not.
Guest:No.
Marc:I did not.
Marc:I didn't.
Marc:Where did it play?
Marc:Did it have a run?
Marc:Did it have a life?
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:This is an award-winning play.
Guest:It ran at New Horizons in 2010.
Guest:That's when Darren saw it, actually, in an off-Broadway production.
Guest:And the rest is what he says.
Guest:He was removed by it, and he contacted Samuel Hunter, and they started working on bringing it to the screen.
Okay.
Marc:He's an interesting director, man.
Marc:You know, like his last movie is sort of making the book of Genesis intimate.
Marc:And now he's.
Marc:That was a tough watch.
Marc:Right.
Marc:For anybody.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So when you get offered something like this, I mean, how much of your own experience are you processing, you know, in this character?
Guest:I don't have the lived experience of being a man whose body weighs hundreds and hundreds of pounds behind you, but I don't think you need to be that guy.
Guest:The best that I could do was meet him halfway, or as close to it as I could.
Guest:So my own body was easily the heaviest it's ever been in my life.
Guest:And to, whether unknowingly or not, have that be how you inform a performance.
Guest:I mean, you live in your own body, so how do you know what heavy versus not heavy feels like when you're living that way?
Guest:Maybe you notice it when there's less weight, or maybe you notice it when there's more weight.
Guest:But when you're living in it, you're just who you are.
Guest:But I needed to look at myself as if I was a costume in and of itself, the same way I looked at myself as if I was a costume when I was...
Guest:swinging around on vines and on wine cloth and smashing into trees.
Guest:That wardrobe was, there was none basically, but that was the job.
Guest:That guy was.
Guest:Charlie is, he is, as he presents, a very large man.
Guest:to create that, that was the conversation that I had to very candidly have with Darren, who had a plan in place, which is to use prosthetics to create Charlie as you would do, you know, it's a character makeup that Adrian Rowe did, but it's not a creature, it's not an alien or something like that, whatever.
Guest:But it's the same approach, you know, in creating, I mean, he could have been painted blue or whatever, and...
Guest:In terms of costume.
Guest:Yeah, it'd be a makeup and costume.
Guest:But for Charlie, it was the same approach.
Marc:But for you, I mean, like, there's something struck me when I was thinking about it this morning is, you know, time passing.
Marc:That, you know, when his daughter finally does show up, that there is a sense that, in her mind, she missed his whole life.
Marc:And in your mind, you've held on to this relationship through that piece of writing and through what could have been.
Marc:And, you know, and during that time, he has, you know, let himself go.
Marc:But like, I was just wondering.
Guest:He might also be harming himself intentionally instead of just being neglectful with his health and overeating, you know.
Marc:Right.
Marc:No, definitely.
Marc:It's like leaving Las Vegas for food.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it's kind of the same thing.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:Unless it's gambling or sex.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Pick your favorite vice.
Guest:It's still the same dopamine cycle receptor that goes along with it.
Guest:I mean, anybody listening, I'm no shrink, but I've spoken to a couple.
Guest:I'm like, yep, same thing.
Marc:You talk to people in doing your research?
Guest:I spoke to people with eating disorder specialists.
Guest:I talked to people with eating disorders.
Guest:I spoke to people who are bedridden, who's one body's weight upwards of 500 pounds.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And I couldn't be more forthcoming and open-hearted to tell me...
Guest:Answer the very, you know, almost ignorant question of mine playing amateur interviewer on a Zoom call before we started.
Guest:It's going like, well, you know, how did it, what happened?
Guest:And I noticed that among the eight or ten people I spoke to, one common thread that they had was that there was someone early in their lives, most often an adult.
Guest:And, you know, heartbreakingly to me is their father.
Guest:who spoke to them in a way that was recriminating or, as we say, othering, basically just being a dick.
Guest:You don't say things to a child to shatter their confidence.
Guest:Shaming them.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:You can't do that.
Guest:You shouldn't do that.
Marc:But is that in a general sense or around weight?
Guest:In this case, it would be about issues of weight, but that kind of attitude perpetuates itself and it leads in all sorts of other areas.
Guest:And those are the very complicated lives that their paths take.
Guest:And the people who I spoke to let me know that...
Guest:Yes, they were medicating with food, self-medicating with food.
Guest:They were trying to fill a void.
Guest:Some people are just, it's a sensory issue.
Guest:My oldest son is autistic.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he's a big kid.
Guest:He's like six, five and a half.
Guest:He's got like size 15 feet.
Guest:He's the sweetest boy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's 20 now.
Guest:And he's a big boy.
Guest:And, you know, you try and tell a kid on the spectrum you can't eat this when you're just trying to get them to eat something some days.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You roll over quick.
Guest:You do.
Guest:And then they want to eat it because it's tasty and all, because it's made to be, because that's the American fast food diet processed, mass produced, easily digestible, high sugar, empty calorie, salty fatty.
Guest:I mean, there are scientists who craft these flavors so that they target the consumer, the human tongue.
Guest:In a way that's truth in advertising.
Guest:You can't just have one.
Guest:You need the whole damn box, if not the shelf.
Guest:And that's what happens.
Guest:And this has been going on for over 100 years, really.
Marc:And in talking to these individuals outside of abusive adults, is there usually a history of other trauma?
Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I mean, I didn't get into those areas that they were uncomfortable with, but I think we can all attest that there are overlaps in those kinds of issues.
Marc:Trauma reaction.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know how to answer that one, but I think that they're very interrelated.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, because, like, it's interesting in the movie that, you know, the story unfolds in the second or the third, the last third of the movie.
Marc:You know, pieces fall into place that sort of define some of your character's emotional behavior.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Because it's a very—I don't want to spoil the movie for anybody, but, you know, it's a very specific reaction to somebody dying in a certain way.
Marc:But it seems like the issues were there previous.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right?
Marc:I agree.
Marc:And you don't know what happens after—
Marc:whatever happens at the end of this movie, man.
Marc:No, it's not important.
Marc:It's not important.
Marc:And I don't even know if you would say it's hopeful, but it does release you.
Marc:It does.
Guest:It does.
Guest:For all the screenings I've attended with a question-answer period afterwards, I mean—
Guest:It's almost like a trope in Hollywood.
Guest:Like, oh, my God, there were tears in everything.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:Blah, blah, blah, blah.
Guest:But seriously, people stay rooted to the spot, even if the credits have rolled.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Some clap, some sob and hold each other.
Guest:I know the first time I saw this movie, and I'm in it.
Guest:I had to seriously move the chess pieces around on the board and then throw the board out and go, I got to think about this some more.
Guest:I definitely had to... I had a feeling of...
Guest:I just, I felt like you really need to gather yourself after this.
Guest:And for reasons you might not even know why, and maybe it's not that important.
Guest:Oh, for sure.
Guest:It is, if I, I was just saying, if I, you know, if I do come out to an audience who has seen it, the first thing I, you know, I would joke about is like, is everybody okay?
Guest:And they go, ha ha ha.
Guest:But you know, seriously, some people are triggered by what goes on and, and,
Guest:You know, it's an emotional body blow for many people, but it's also a catharsis that I think is, I don't know, I haven't seen it in cinema for a long time, and I'm, I mean, help me out here, I'm scratching my head, like what, Steel Magnolias?
Guest:When did people really, for whatever reasons, have that collective, yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, this one's so complicated because, you know, it's not like just someone, you know, like dying of cancer.
Marc:Correct.
Marc:It's not terms of endearment.
Marc:You know, it's an aggravated and painful process of self-annihilation and grief.
Marc:I mean, there seems to be a lot of grief in the air, generally speaking, right now.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:After COVID and after whatever we went through as a country and a world and what we are going through, the world is dying.
Marc:And there's no way to, after a certain point, avoid that reality.
Marc:So I think grief in and of itself, however it's grounded in whatever character or situation, is speaking to the human spirit right now.
Marc:So, I mean, when you say triggered, because like me...
Marc:I would be somebody who is severely triggered by food issues.
Marc:But that is not what got me emotionally.
Marc:What got me emotionally was just that need for redemption.
Marc:And also the fact that he, out of his shame, thought that he deserved what was happening to him.
Marc:And I think that people struggle with their secrets and with their, you know, their unprocessed grief and with their own shame about how they behaved every day.
Marc:So the spectrum of triggers.
Marc:You know, is something.
Marc:So, you know, it's hard to know coming out of that what would cause anybody, you know, to react to it.
Marc:But it is a human existentially true reaction.
Guest:Speaking of existentialism, we all lived under that clearly with COVID.
Guest:Will there be a tomorrow or next week?
Guest:We seriously, I don't know.
Guest:Seriously, we didn't know.
Guest:We were scared, fear, blah, blah.
Guest:I mean...
Marc:Were you shooting during that?
Guest:Yeah, this was a COVID film.
Marc:Oh, so you, you know, you, oh my God.
Marc:So on top of the prosthetic, you had to mask up and visor up?
Marc:I couldn't.
Guest:Everybody else did, but I couldn't.
Guest:I won't say it's fortunate, but I guess I was pretty disastrous because I got it like that January, February.
Marc:Oh, you did?
Marc:Yeah, I did.
Marc:Before the vaccine?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How sick did you get?
Guest:I lost smell, taste.
Guest:I had serious brain fog.
Guest:Did it come back?
Guest:Yeah, I've got it several times since then.
Guest:Actually, I'm holding up four fingers.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, really.
Guest:But you got your smell back?
Guest:Yeah, that came back.
Guest:I mean, sriracha sauce might as well have been fucking toothpaste at one point.
Marc:I was like, what is going on?
Guest:And I just told a doctor about it.
Guest:She's like, yep, there's so much we don't know about this.
Guest:That's neurology for you, right?
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you feel all right now?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, it was really tremendous work.
Marc:And I guess the thing that I got hung up on in knowing I was going to talk to you about time and about how time gets away from us.
Marc:And when Samantha Morton comes in after not having seen you or the shape you're in, it's just whatever emotion she was bringing in terms of her anger just kind of went away.
Marc:I'm getting choked up just thinking about the movie.
Marc:Easy, man.
Guest:It's okay.
Guest:It's okay.
Guest:So, in...
Marc:And looking at your career, I mean, did you have you felt I mean, like, I know that, you know, you never stopped working.
Marc:But did you feel like time, you know, coming into this movie and certainly doing this kind of work and now getting the reaction you're getting?
Guest:Does it feel like you've lost years, you know, in terms of, you know, how you approach work or the work you've been doing?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It's a weird question.
Guest:I don't feel like I lost years.
Guest:I've always kept myself busy no matter what.
Guest:And whether I was away from everything or philosophically it was away from me is an open question.
Guest:But we all know that Hollywood's always been a heat-seeking missile.
Guest:And if you're out of sight, you're out of mind.
Guest:It's just a fact.
Guest:And all careers go dip, no, da-da-da.
Guest:But...
Guest:you can't be on all the time and for for me my life I the the interim that I needed to take was very helpful in bringing me to where I am and who I am now which is a more confident version and a less anxious version of who I was yeah for having gone through all of that I mean all of the
Guest:I'll call it the positive response to this right now.
Guest:I don't know if I could have handled it back in the day when... Interesting.
Guest:I'm glad I wasn't given everything all at once.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I didn't have the emotional male toolbox to deal with that.
Guest:If I think about the younger version of myself...
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I mean, I think about that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I was chaotic, but, you know, I don't know that I could have handled, you know, anything.
Marc:And it is sort of, it's nice to be able to go to a job knowing that you're ready to do it.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:That, and in this case, that we were going to be very good at it, too, for this reason.
Guest:It sounds fundamental, but we rehearsed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:For three weeks.
Guest:When do you ever get as much rehearsal time for a Broadway production to put on a movie?
Guest:Never.
Guest:Never.
Guest:Oh, in terms of movement and everything?
Guest:The whole stage.
Guest:We had a taped-out one-to-one mock-up that we rehearsed in a... Oh, it does stay in one place, doesn't it, really?
Guest:It's one room with a two-bedroom apartment in anywhere Idaho.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:On the second floor.
Marc:Where it always rains.
Marc:Wherever it was, it's raining all the time.
Guest:It's a story that plays out behind closed doors all across the country, the continent, and...
Guest:Correct.
Guest:But we don't know that much about it because we don't know what goes on behind those doors until this film says, hey, here's an invitation to come in.
Guest:Maybe people will look at that invitation, throw their brow, and say, no, not for me.
Guest:And that's fine.
Guest:They'll turn on their heel and walk away or disparage it, kind of like the pizza guy.
Guest:And the world's filled with pizza guys.
Guest:The world is the pizza guy, the audience.
Guest:Let me in.
Guest:I want to see you.
Guest:I deserve to see you.
Guest:What's going on there?
Guest:I am curious.
Guest:I want to know because I'm entitled to know.
Guest:None of your business feels Charlie.
Guest:Till he's tricked and lured out to go and basically prove himself by exposing himself.
Guest:And then what happens?
Guest:He's judged automatically and condemned.
Guest:It's basically just violent, disgusting and turned on his, you know, the world turns on his heel and stomps off into the rainy night.
Guest:And that's the pizza guy.
Guest:And it's devastating.
Marc:And also the daughter with the phone.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Devastating.
Marc:Also.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:So when you started, I mean, you're Canadian.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I'm a Canadian born abroad, so I have dual heritage.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I was born in the U.S., but my parents are Canadian.
Guest:Do they live in Canada?
Guest:No, my mom's deceased and my father hasn't lived in Canada since the late, I mean, everyone, our family hasn't lived in Canada since the 70s.
Marc:It's so weird.
Marc:I never understand that because, like, I'm dying to go to Canada.
Marc:I'm ready.
Guest:You've not been.
Marc:No, I go all the time, but I'm ready to leave.
Marc:I'm ready to live there.
Guest:Oh, I get it.
Guest:Do you feel better when you go to Canada?
Guest:I do.
Guest:I feel relaxed.
Guest:I do.
Guest:I feel there's an anxiety that's gone, and somehow the air feels, I don't know, not smells better, but it just feels better to breathe.
Marc:Like immediately, dude.
Guest:When I get out to the airport.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:It's in the airport.
Marc:Yeah, you're like, oh, it's not here.
Marc:Agreed.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:I know.
Marc:So why wouldn't you want to be in that?
Marc:I know.
Marc:I do.
Guest:Fuck it.
Guest:Let's get out of here.
Marc:Montreal is calling, brother.
Marc:They've got poutine there for everyone.
Marc:Dude, I've applied for permanent residency.
Marc:Seriously?
Marc:Good for you.
Marc:But you have a dual citizenship.
Marc:I would definitely be.
Guest:It's in the plan for the future.
Guest:I'm looking forward to my fantasy of getting a two-bedroom apartment in the East Village in New York.
Guest:I'm like, screw it.
Guest:I'm going to Montreal.
Guest:Yeah, Montreal, anywhere.
Guest:Even Toronto.
Guest:Vancouver, beautiful.
Guest:Good, really good.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, I'm up there all the time.
Marc:Do you have family up there still?
Guest:In Vancouver?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I have extended family in Saskatoon and... Is that northeast Saskatoon?
Marc:Where's Saskatoon?
Marc:Saskatchewan.
Marc:Saskatchewan?
Guest:Saskatchewan.
Guest:Where is that geographically?
Guest:In the middle?
Guest:Up above Montana.
Marc:It's basically Montana north.
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:It's full of cowboys, pretty much.
Guest:It's a prairie, but it's very country-western by comparison to Americans.
Marc:I don't know if I've been to it.
Marc:I should learn the geography if I'm really serious about it.
Marc:I might have to take a test.
Guest:It's part of being American.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Well, no, but I've been to Calgary, Victoria, Vancouver.
Marc:Also very cowboy.
Marc:Yeah, very cowboy.
Marc:Very cowboy.
Marc:They're good at it.
Marc:I've been to Winnipeg, Montreal.
Guest:I haven't been up to the northeast, I don't think.
Guest:That's where my family hail from in CBI and Nova Scotia.
Guest:I just did the Ancestry show.
Guest:Finding Your Roots?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I did that.
Guest:With Skip?
Marc:Oh, no.
Marc:Yeah, with Skip.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I just did it before Christmas.
Guest:It's amazing, right?
Guest:Eye-opening, to say the least.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Oh, my goodness.
Guest:What'd you learn?
Guest:I learned that my great-great-great-great-grandfather, paternal grandfather,
Guest:As a nine-year-old boy escaped the potato famine with his mother on a rusty bucket of a boat and came across the Atlantic to Nova Scotia.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:A nine-year-old boy is, if he hadn't made that journey, hi, no me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How does Skip find that shit, man?
Marc:I kind of don't want to ask.
Marc:It's crazy, dude.
Marc:You do your voodoo, but it's all backed up with fact.
Marc:They've tracked mine further back than they ever have Ashkenazi Jew into Pela Settlement because all those records are gone.
Guest:Yeah, there is no.
Guest:That's what Darren said.
Marc:He's like, yeah, no, the records are gone.
Guest:I told him I was going to do this.
Guest:He's like, well, enjoy it because I don't know anything.
Marc:Yeah, well, they got pretty far back with my dad's line, like six generations into Belarus in that area.
Marc:It's crazy.
Marc:It's crazy.
Marc:The names are crazy.
Marc:It's all pretty much—it's crazy.
Marc:And I found it to be—
Marc:Like, I have to go take it in.
Marc:I have to go look at the book.
Marc:Did you get your book yet?
Guest:Not yet, no.
Guest:He gave me the documentation.
Marc:When you're in it, you're just sort of like, what, what?
Marc:And you're kind of going through the show.
Marc:But, like, I really need to go look at the book.
Guest:I do, too.
Guest:What else did you find out?
Guest:There was a candy salesman.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:I want to get this right, in Brooklyn, I think, like a wholesale candy salesman.
Guest:Several generations back in Germany, I'm descendants of Wintners.
Guest:There's still wine country there that was planted.
Marc:Wow, you got a good bunch of stuff.
Guest:My great-great-grandfather was an artillery soldier for the Kaiser who saw action, decorated.
Guest:World War I?
Marc:One.
Guest:And he then went on, he survived that meat grinder and went and landed with his wife and little boy, his son, who was my great-great-great-great-grandfather.
Guest:And became a miner and did explosives underground because he was good at blowing shit up.
Guest:And so he went and broke up the coal.
Guest:And they were miners, a lot of miners.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Pennsylvania.
Guest:No kidding.
Guest:That's a tough gig, man.
Guest:I think about it.
Guest:I mean, I was once in a mine in Louisiana.
Guest:It was an old salt mine.
Guest:And they go there and they scrape the stuff up.
Guest:And it's like being inside of a dark, evil cathedral that's been turned inside out.
Guest:Were you there to shoot?
Guest:No, I was visiting with a friend.
Guest:It's on Avery Island in Louisiana.
Guest:It's an incredible place.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:It's where they make Tabasco sauce.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:That would have been the salt from back in the day because it's just a mineral in the earth.
Guest:But now I'm told it's the salt that's used on roads and stuff like that.
Marc:Oh, that they get out of the hole?
Guest:Yeah, on the world market.
Guest:Like, I don't know if they don't get the salt for— Were you there as a Tabasco tourist?
Guest:In a way, I was, yes.
Guest:I took a tour of the plant.
Guest:It was incredible.
Guest:I loved doing that.
Guest:I loved it.
Guest:It was so great.
Guest:The second you walk into the plant, there are these giant vats of just chili, vinegar, and salt.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:And the man who's walking you through is just like bread-in-the-bone Cajun.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And he's got like a beard cover on his beard.
Guest:And then he's got a head net on like everybody has to wear.
Guest:And the second you open the doors and walk in there, it's like getting a mustard gas attack.
Guest:You know, it's like, oh, the assault to the eyes and nose and senses and everything just because it's Tabasco.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:Airborne.
Guest:And me and my friend were like, oh.
Guest:Ah, wow, that stings.
Guest:And the guy's like breathing through his nose deep going, no, I don't smell nothing.
Guest:And if you look really closely, you could see he somehow adapted a natural filtration system because his nostril hairs were so huge.
Guest:He's like you filtering out all the gas attack.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:I wonder if that happened over years.
Marc:I wonder if it's an actual adaption.
Marc:Evolved to protect himself.
Marc:That's exciting, man.
Marc:I think I've been to... I went to the Ben & Jerry factory once in Vermont.
Marc:Not as historical or exciting as Tabasco.
Marc:Still fun.
Marc:Sure, man.
Marc:Ice cream's great.
Marc:But Tabasco seems like this great American factory that's been... A company that's been around forever.
Guest:It's still a family business.
Guest:Did you know?
Marc:Yeah, and they still do the same thing, but they've added some flavors.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:They've got the Chipotle one and the green one.
Marc:The green one's good.
Marc:The green one's good, yeah.
Marc:I still use Tabasco, given the sort of...
Marc:the spectrum of available hot sauces.
Guest:Tabasco is very specific.
Guest:Here's a real hot tip.
Guest:If you're going to get those little itty bitty cute bottles of Tabasco, bring them on the airplane.
Guest:Sure, man.
Marc:Because it's their size, and the food is really boring and bland, and you're like, oh.
Marc:Throw it on there?
Marc:Well, you can also – I think that the first size is not – I think you could – that's probably less than four ounces for the airplane if you really wanted to care.
Guest:You probably could.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But it's fun to just whip out a little tiny bottle.
Guest:And can I say also I learned that those little tiny bottles are in their plant.
Guest:They have a whole chapter – a whole chapter – a whole area –
Guest:where the labels that are printed on those itty bitty bottles are done by special needs kids and their families in particular.
Guest:Like they give jobs, vocations to, I think they call it their angels program.
Guest:I want to get this right.
Guest:To make the little labels?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you can, you know, print them up for a,
Guest:wedding or something like that or whatever put your own name and number on is your business card oh i see yeah everyone but all all the young people and all the you know young adults who work there all have spectrum disorders or somehow as i say they've been touched and so they take care of them by giving them a job give them a vocation yeah and they're
Guest:so proud of what they do that's nice they love what they do working on that assembly line that's nice it's really really sweet it's nice when uh companies do the right thing yeah so have you tried i i've recently started using louisiana hot sauce you ever use that oh that's the red and yellow the yellow label red one yeah i would see those on crafty tables all the time yeah i like them i would work in
Guest:Louisiana, you know, you work in Baton Rouge.
Marc:It's a different flavor, but it's the same ingredients, but it's a little thicker.
Marc:It's salt, chili, vinegar, basically.
Marc:So you've got a bunch of siblings, right?
Guest:Three older brothers.
Guest:How are they doing?
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:My oldest brother is a grandfather several times over.
Guest:My other brother is, my middle brother, my little two brothers are, one of them worked for, I want to say it was Boeing up until pandemic hit.
Guest:Up in Seattle?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But then everybody kind of hit the road with their laptops.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I have another brother.
Guest:I don't talk about him that much, but I hope he's well.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:And you got three kids.
Marc:Yes, I do.
Marc:And they're all good?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like I said, my oldest son, Griffin, he's...
Guest:He's the reason really why I wanted to be Charlie.
Guest:And he's the reason why I could do any of this stuff.
Guest:Well, they all are, really.
Guest:But that's because I passed through the threshold of I'm doing my professional aspirations and all that for my own selfish needs.
Guest:And once you have a couple of kids or a kid or...
Guest:it's a switch flipped in my head and maybe others have had this experience too but then suddenly I know oh this is why I've been chasing my ass around all my life you know and I wasn't getting fulfillment from something I thought was a very good accomplishment or others perceive that to be because I was doing it for myself but once you start doing that you said the reason why is on behalf of
Guest:And the reason why you can do it is because of them.
Guest:I could only play this role of Charlie because he's a man who feels loved deeply and in a way that
Guest:The way I, of course, everyone feels for their kids.
Guest:I mean, the thought that they could be, my own children, could be abandoned in a way that Charlie perceptively did the same thing when he left his marriage to be with a new partner whom he had fallen wholeheartedly in love with, but it completely shattered the whole ecology of his life to...
Guest:make it take that different path and he just wasn't aware of the fallout that could ensue for having not have done that before but he again has to pay the bill on that one when she comes back into his his life and purview or he tries to get her back into his life
Guest:And the thought of that personally, doing that myself in the way that Charlie does is so foreign to me that it breaks my heart to be put in that position.
Guest:To think to be put in that position.
Marc:Right, and because you're experiencing, because you're an empathetic guy, if you put yourself into that place, even as an actor, to think about
Marc:whether or not you know it in the moment or the month that you do it, the heartbreak of it, it's there from the action.
Marc:No matter how swept up you are, it's gotta be there somewhere.
Marc:Yeah, so I would imagine having the opposite experience with children and then really putting yourself into that place has gotta be devastating.
Guest:Well, I'm definitely informed how I could be able to do this and certainly the reason why I wanted to do it.
Marc:And did your kids see the movie?
Guest:My sons did, yeah.
Guest:Holden Leland did.
Guest:Yeah, they saw it in Toronto.
Guest:And I think, no, no, they said Toronto and also, yeah, they came to the premiere at Lincoln Center.
Guest:That was a milestone in life for me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What did they think?
Guest:They were like every other audience member, devastated.
Guest:They were giving me sort of a, on the one hand, like, who are you kind of look.
Guest:But I know you because you're like my dad.
Guest:I think what it did was it actually brought us closer in a way that I wasn't able to appreciate until it happened because I started seeing them as more fully formed young men than children.
Guest:and allowing them to see that vulnerability that I knew it would take to do the service it deserved on screen.
Guest:It was a far removal from what I was a cop to trying to get brownie points in the work that I was doing to pander to my children.
Guest:I'll do an animal movie because I can take them with me.
Marc:You did a lot of those kind of movies.
Guest:Yeah, and they're great.
Guest:They're fun.
Guest:Popular movies.
Guest:For sure, for all the right reasons.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, it's a... Well, that's interesting.
Guest:It's a fast food commodity, again, in its own way.
Marc:I get that.
Marc:But, like, when they were young, you were doing George and you were doing The Later Mummy.
Guest:They were not.
Guest:But then those movies were round, you know.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:They were in the diet of pop culture, for sure, for families and kids.
Guest:But, you know, but they're right kids, so they're, like, largely unimpressed, for sure.
Guest:Like, if The Mummy was playing on a screen repeatedly somewhere in the house.
Marc:Oh, that's interesting.
Marc:They got detachment from it?
Guest:No, I mean, it'd just be like, it plays seasonally like Thanksgiving on a loop or something like that.
Guest:And maybe it was on, they'd walk past it and going, like trying to like, look, look, it's daddy.
Guest:They'd be like, nah, nah, nah, I've seen you in your underwear kind of thing, you know, and they want to look at Power Rangers.
Guest:And it's funny to say that, but I think it also let me know that I kind of need to get out of my own way and not try and like suck up to them by giving them, you know, eye candy and...
Guest:And, you know, earn brownie points that way.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But maybe that's age appropriate.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But to do work that welcomes them into that's more fully formed and emotional.
Guest:It's probably something I wasn't capable of anyway.
Marc:But it seems to me in just like the sort of small amount of, you know, overview that I kind of looked at that there was, you know, a point within, you know, a few years there that,
Marc:After you had this... And I see Pauly Shore a lot, by the way.
Marc:You do?
Marc:How is he?
Marc:He's okay.
Marc:He's out in Vegas now.
Marc:I work at his mom's club a lot.
Marc:Peter, her older son, or the middle son, is kind of running the place.
Marc:And Pauly...
Marc:Works there, but he kind of got bought out, and now he's in Vegas, where he seems to be having a nice time.
Marc:Good for him.
Marc:Running around with Nick Cage, and he's okay.
Marc:He still performs a lot.
Guest:He's fantastic when he's on stage.
Guest:He's the most linear that I have ever heard.
Guest:He knows what he's going to be saying.
Marc:Well, you know what's funny now is he'll do a few minutes talking about how a lot of people remember him as the Weez.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But then, like, he pretty much does the wheeze.
Guest:He's still the wheeze.
Marc:He's still the wheeze, too.
Guest:He's still the wheeze.
Guest:Never not going to be the wheeze.
Guest:But he was always doing, hey, bye.
Guest:Hey, bye.
Guest:I always felt like his older brother, like, Polly.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Give him a nookie.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:He kind of brings that out in here, right?
Marc:Oh, man.
Marc:So, but it seems to me that...
Marc:That there was some sort of, you know, major upheaval on a lot of different fronts for you.
Marc:And I imagine that was sort of a kind of strange baptism into adulthood emotionally.
Marc:Between the divorce and, you know, the sexual assault and, you know, that stuff all happening at once within years.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's not real easy to talk about, but I'll do my best if you want to.
Guest:No, it was not pleasant.
Guest:I mean, we all have issues in our own way.
Guest:I guess that was my turn to go through those ones.
Guest:how you, how you own it and deal with it after it's over is just, can be just as challenging as it is whilst you're going through it and any pleasant, but it's life.
Guest:And, um, I, I, um, I know that it's absolutely informed me to be the person I am now for not having had gone through it.
Guest:Then, um,
Guest:um, you know, kind of like getting those knee and neck and back operations.
Guest:I don't know if I got it out of the way early, but I mean, I, I, I, I went through those, all those emotional, that emotional challenge relatively early in life.
Guest:And I,
Guest:I think I kind of—I don't want to say I got it out of the way, but I mean, I wouldn't want anyone to have to go through that kind of nonsense again in their life.
Guest:Any of it.
Marc:Divorce is horrible.
Marc:Heaven forbid.
Marc:Heaven forbid.
Marc:But, you know, it seems to me in my memory that, you know, when you addressing being sexually assaulted, that—
Marc:It makes you wonder how many men don't come forward.
Marc:I think of that often.
Marc:Because of the shame.
Guest:That and the response that men want to counsel other men who do come forward is to basically challenge their masculinity and say, why the fuck didn't you man up and deck the guy?
Guest:That kind of attitude.
Guest:Which would completely negate anything helpful.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:then you're dealing with an assault and that's a whole other violent assault in reaction to a sexual assault so now we compare the two which is the less reprehensible so no response is the best response clearly in that situation to mitigate the damage being done but if you respond that way apart from protecting yourself in the immediate moment which is human instinct of course
Guest:I'm sorry, I'm a little jittery right now.
Guest:That's all right.
Guest:I think what I'm just trying to say is responding to that situation physically or something that wouldn't help me at all.
Guest:But the ramification is, well, then you have to kind of just keep your mouth shut.
Guest:Suck it up.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:And then there's the accompanying shame feelings attached to that and then feeling like you're complicit even for keeping someone else's dirty little secret.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then the fear of a bully in your life or a boogeyman kind of thing, which I hope we don't have, but we do.
Guest:It's...
Guest:of it being held over you it's menacing yeah it's menacing and and look the physical aspect of the incident compared to the feeling of powerlessness yeah they're disparate to say the least sure it just it was there's a moment of
Guest:astonishment and revulsion compared to what the ramifications and the outcome of that is realizing this changes everything and how do you take ownership of that or can you or what's going to happen and the accompanying feeling of
Guest:shame or being attached to you in a way that you know something that you didn't ever ask for you don't want to clearly who would but yeah but it's yeah i i find i don't look i mean like i'm a man i know i i i it it made me among many things yeah appreciate or
Guest:I feel more empathy for if you just flip the script or the genders.
Guest:If I was a woman, for instance, what would happen afterwards?
Guest:Or if that was a woman, what would that mean?
Marc:Especially at that time.
Marc:When was that, 2003?
Marc:2003.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, just a lot of silence.
Guest:A lot of the silence.
Guest:A lot of, you know, the accompanying recrimination that attaches to it, they don't talk about this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or else, whether it's implied or implicitly expressed, is there.
Marc:Oh, that'll affect your career.
Guest:Clearly.
Guest:And then while there may never be a way to prove anything like that, no response is a response, for instance, in your life.
Guest:If things go quiet, you do start wondering, well, why?
Guest:You start thinking, well, am I not worthy enough?
Guest:Am I not good enough?
Guest:Did I do something wrong?
Guest:What did I annoy?
Guest:Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Marc:You personalize it.
Guest:You make it then more shame your fault.
Guest:Well, I've felt those ways for sure.
Guest:I mean, I've worked through all this stuff.
Guest:That's good.
Guest:Thanks.
Thanks.
Marc:How long did you come out immediately after it?
Guest:Well, I spoke up when it happened.
Guest:It was witnessed.
Guest:So, yeah, I mean, there was fallout.
Guest:There was press inquiry from, like, the Times.
Guest:And, you know, again, it just—
Guest:It puts something in my purview that I didn't want.
Guest:Like, why did you do that?
Guest:I don't want this.
Guest:Now I have to deal with it.
Guest:I don't want to have to deal with it.
Marc:Like, why'd you?
Marc:Right.
Marc:And now it's like, and it stays on you.
Guest:Like, a feeling of if you were somewhere to splash a...
Guest:I don't know, Brandy with the Invisible Scarlet Letter or something like everyone knows.
Guest:And I guess what it, like I say, for you go through all of the firewall of what happened, it brings you, brought me to another place where I feel like, well...
Guest:Now I know what my threshold is and I know what never to go back to and I can see a path forward.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which is the...
Guest:the medicine from the poison of the whole situation.
Marc:And it was, you know, to be clear, it was a groping incident, basically, right?
Marc:Correct.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the act of processing these things, and I can see it still, you know, deeply emotional,
Marc:But I have to assume that, like you said before, that, you know, people go through traumatic stuff, difficult stuff.
Marc:And it seems that, you know, though you've worked through some of this stuff, I mean, it is, you know, what it is.
Marc:But you've had, you know, a satisfying and good life.
Marc:And you've been able to be, you know, to do the work you want to do.
Marc:Yeah, thanks.
Guest:I appreciate that.
Guest:But, you know, I'm nobody's charity case.
Guest:Of course not.
Guest:You know, I'm not saying you're thinking that.
Guest:No, not at all.
Guest:But this is what I go on.
Guest:This one goes on my head.
Marc:Well, what I was thinking actually is that there is an actual redemption story in your life around this role.
Marc:It's not a charity case, but I mean that the last two roles you did, which I thought were great.
Marc:I saw Soderbergh's movie too because I talked to him and that was a great performance.
Marc:But in terms of you as an adult artist, that this is a redemptive story, you arriving at this role.
Marc:That's what I see.
Guest:There's a...
Guest:There's a direct connection to be made between the two paths.
Guest:I take your point.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Agreed.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, like, you know, it's just sort of amazing to me that, like, you know, I've been in and out of your work over the years, and I know you to do—you always sort of did, you know, big entertaining work for young people and then challenged yourself with more compelling and deeper adult roles.
Marc:But it really seems that this thing—
Marc:It's like, you know, you're not a guy that ever stopped working and this, in terms of personal risk and challenge as an artist, is like, it was deep and crazy.
Guest:The adage from my training days in conservatory was go towards the fear.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Take the creative risks.
Guest:That's where the most growth and discovery can be found or will come from.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I don't believe you should take so many risks in your own life, but creatively... You did both.
Marc:You did both physically.
Guest:I think now it's better to know.
Guest:And The Whale is, the very title of the film, is there to call out the prejudice of anyone who would think that's just a pejorative joke.
Guest:What does that say about what you think?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You're taking the name of this movie to be an insult, basically a slur.
Guest:Well, really?
Guest:Maybe you should come and see the movie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then by story's end, ask yourself how you felt before you walked in the door.
Guest:Did you uphold any of those prejudices, any of that... Obesity and disparaging it in word and deed and all that in our culture, our society is like the last...
Guest:refuge of where bigots can act and speak freely.
Guest:With this caveat that the terminology that's used is the vernacular.
Guest:That can change.
Guest:We're in a period now of
Guest:of world history where we're going down the checkbox and taking things off, you just can't do any longer.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And think you can just skate.
Guest:You can't.
Guest:You'll get called out.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And with good reason.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think that weight bias is among those because I know the damage that it does to people.
Guest:I know that those little kids who got told that they were fat and
Guest:when they were small, didn't deserve that because they grew up and it affected their very health.
Guest:There's scientific proof in how our minds and bodies evolve that changes the outcome of who we become just based on how we speak to each other.
Guest:And we all know you don't tell a child that.
Guest:If you do, you're morally bankrupt in my view, but it can do real damage by power of the word.
Guest:I saw a...
Guest:plaque on a temple outside of a giant Buddha in Thailand years ago.
Guest:There was a plaque that read, painful indeed is vindictive speech.
Guest:And it stayed with me.
Guest:And it's like something that you would say that's kind of obvious to one another, like be kind.
Guest:But that's more explicitly giving you
Guest:a command and a real good tip on how to get through, get through this life with patience and tolerance and dignity.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think that those ideas, those themes all exist and live within the world of this film.
Guest:It's a journey of redemption.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's, um,
Guest:It's a quest for proving that kindness and taking the high road in the face of recriminating discrimination, while you do want to reach across the table and punch someone's face in or whatever it is, won't help you.
Guest:You won't be killing him with kindness either, but you'll be preserving your very soul by taking the high road, not engaging on that level.
Guest:It's hard sometimes.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's why it's the high road.
Guest:what i'm just trying to say that it's the parallels of this film the whale are similar enough to my own sensibilities and my own um experience yeah that
Guest:My hope is that it's not perceived as being in any way appropriating my own life to...
Guest:put it in a work of art to make myself different or better or anything like that.
Guest:But I am finding a way to take this and use it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I got to use it for this, for the art to take those risks.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I think what I was saying, and I think what you're saying is correct and true.
Marc:And I don't think I'm misunderstanding it or anyone will misunderstand it is that I don't think anybody really could have played it as deeply as you did because of your own life preparation for this.
Guest:Whether I chose those preparations.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Is that, you know, that the depth of conflict and pain and, you know, shame and all that stuff.
Marc:It was, you know, I don't think I saw it as anything you were working through.
Marc:But like I said at the beginning of this interview.
Marc:It very quickly wasn't about somebody, you know, affected by obesity.
Marc:It was about a human who was struggling with a lot of different things.
Marc:And it was heartbreaking.
Marc:And I just what I guess my point is, is that, you know, whatever your life experience was, it gave you the empathy and the emotional range to take this on and do it effectively as an artist, not as somebody working through their own problems.
Marc:I appreciate you saying that.
Marc:Yeah, man.
Marc:I take comfort in it, too.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, you know, it's just really like it's just one of those things where this is what you do with your life.
Marc:This is your art and this is your thing, man.
Marc:And, you know, and you keep doing it.
Marc:And this is just one of those amazing cosmic convergences.
Marc:Right.
Marc:The stars do align sometimes.
Marc:Yeah, man.
Marc:And, you know, it just, it was like the perfect kind of, it was kind of genius for Darren to think of you and for you to take the risk to do it.
Marc:And, you know, I'm proud of you and I was deeply affected by the film and I think it was really amazing work.
Marc:But it was not selfish work.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Thank you.
Guest:That means a lot to me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that's how I saw it.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:And then I cried a lot.
Marc:You're not alone.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well, thanks for talking to me.
Marc:I hope I didn't drag you through a difficult time.
Guest:Not in the least, like I said.
Guest:before you can take the invitation with a furrowed brow and not go there, or you can accept it and go in the door and find out what it means in the sense that even Melville, who wrote that ignorance is the parent of fear,
Guest:which effectively means to me be curious no have knowledge yeah don't shy away from it or you'll be frightened all your life embrace the suck essentially yeah yeah and hopefully some good will come out of it on the other end when the forest burns to the ground and yellowstone
Guest:Years later, we see plants that have never been there.
Guest:We see animals coming back.
Guest:We see all sorts of properties of ecology and everything in a different way.
Guest:Maybe less of it or a different kind, but something good comes out of something new.
Guest:You weren't expecting or anticipating.
Guest:Maybe that's beautiful.
Guest:Maybe they'll take us to a different state of better evolution.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's hope.
Guest:That's hope.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Good talking to you, man.
Guest:Likewise.
Guest:Thank you, Mark.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Wait, can I just do one what the fuck?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What do you want?
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:There, sorry.
Guest:It's my catchphrase from Doom Patrol.
Guest:Is it?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:If you haven't seen Doom Patrol.
Guest:Do another one.
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Thanks, buddy.
Marc:You're welcome.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:That got heavy, but, you know, it was good, and I hope you all got something out of that.
Marc:This trauma stuff is rough, man.
Marc:It really is.
Marc:The Whale is now playing in theaters, and I think it's a must-see.
Marc:All right, hang out, you guys.
Marc:Will you?
Marc:Can you hang out?
Marc:People, not for nothing, but a lot of our recent guests are now Academy Award nominees.
Marc:In addition to Brendan on today's show, you've got Sarah Pauly from Monday Show, who was nominated for Best Adapted Screenplay.
Marc:Last week, we had Best Director nominee Todd Field.
Marc:And last month, we had Ryan Johnson, who's also nominated for Best Adapted Screenplay.
Marc:Go catch up on all those episodes right now.
Marc:They're all in the free feed.
Marc:And for Full Marin listeners, we've got the latest Wrestling with Mark episode is up this week featuring AEW wrestler Chris Jericho.
Marc:If you can milk a crowd.
Guest:Oh, I will milk them till the cows come home.
Marc:So you can just keep doing the different parts of the story.
Guest:I did a match in Chicago right before Thanksgiving with Ishii.
Guest:and he's a japanese guy doesn't speak english he's really hard hitting and i said let's we're gonna chop each other like slap each other in the chest yeah for like five minutes straight let's just see what happens and dude our chests were blood my eye was actually bleeding my black and blue and for five minutes this crowd was going nuts and then they go down a bit i said just keep going you know it's like a comedy repetition always gets a laugh sure wrestling repetition will always and they came back up and they're just now they're just going bananas for this chop for
Guest:fight.
Guest:And I was like, this is great.
Guest:We don't have to do anything.
Guest:Just chop each other for five minutes, hit you with the finish and the match is done.
Marc:To subscribe to the full Marin, go to the link in the episode description or click on WTF plus over at WTF pod.com.
Marc:Here's some guitar.
Thank you.
Thank you.
guitar solo
Thank you.
All right.
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey and La Fonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.