Episode 1389 - Clea DuVall
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast how are you i'm broadcasting from the road i'm broadcasting from six floors up in nashville tennessee today on the show
Marc:We talked to Clea Duvall.
Marc:A lot of you know her as an actor from movies like But I'm a Cheerleader, Girl Interrupted, Zodiac, Argo, and on TV, An American Horror Story, Better Call Saul, The Handmaid's Tale, but she's also a writer and director and now a showrunner.
Marc:with the new series High School, based on the memoir of Tegan and Sarah, as well as the animated series she co-created called Housebroken.
Marc:She is here.
Marc:I will talk to her.
Marc:It's very interesting.
Marc:She was a little nervous at first, but I think we did it.
Marc:I think we got through.
Marc:I think we had a nice conversation.
Marc:A couple of things I wanted to say.
Marc:I just wanted to respond to a couple.
Marc:Not much, but I think it's correct.
Marc:I did a little monologue of sorts.
Marc:a little stream of consciousness on the sort of current state of mainstreaming antisemitism the other day.
Marc:And I may have said something in reference to particular African-American pundits and pop stars saying antisemitic things as the black community.
Marc:And, you know, that's incorrect.
Marc:There's a few black people who are antisemites, a few
Marc:Latin people that are anti-Semites, a few Asian people that are anti-Semites.
Marc:Anti-Semites of all races are a little problematic to me, a lot problematic to me.
Marc:And, you know, when I'm thinking about it, I'm sorry, how are you?
Marc:Is everything all right?
Marc:Well, you know, I'm punchy, man, and I'm way sleep deprived and I'm beat up a bit.
Marc:I did two shows at a rock club last night, and it's not so much that that's different, but it is.
Marc:It's the space.
Marc:It's the space's expectations.
Marc:It's the orange peel.
Marc:There's a bar in the room.
Marc:They did seat the place, but it takes a certain amount of focus and energy.
Marc:So back to anti-Semitism, and then I'll get back to the orange peel.
Marc:My point...
Marc:Is that once you mainstream anti-Semitism, look, anti-Semitism was always there.
Marc:It was always percolating.
Marc:Jews always assumed it.
Marc:People knew what it was to some degree.
Marc:They didn't really associate themselves with it nor think about it much.
Marc:That's the point is now that it's been culturally mainstreamed.
Marc:by a few events, recent events, that have to do with Kanye, Nick Fuentes, Donald Trump.
Marc:Not that it hasn't been percolating for a while, the white nationalism in this country and neo-Nazis in this country.
Marc:It's been growing in terms of awareness.
Marc:I don't know in terms of numbers, but I guess once awareness grows, there are numbers that grow with it.
Marc:But my basic problem,
Marc:is just the mainstreaming of anti-Semitism because most people don't think about it much, but once it becomes a global phenomenon, when you have a global celebrity talking positively about anti-Semitism and Nazis, that puts everyone in the position to listen and at least have it on their radar.
Marc:Everyone in the world for the past few weeks has had anti-Semitism on their radar.
Marc:Now, I believe that
Marc:Everyone in the world, I would say that most people, almost everyone in the world has never even met a Jew, does not have a Jew in their life, doesn't even have a real opinion on it.
Marc:But now that anti-Semitism is in the cultural landscape every day in quick bait, people pushing back on anti-Semitism, some people celebrating anti-Semitism, I would hope that the pushback is more prominent.
Marc:But just the fact that there's pushing back on something that has become a global cultural meme
Marc:is is a problem in a big way because that means everybody and their brother and their mother and their uncle people who don't know jews who don't have opinions about jews have to go what is this anti-semitism how do i feel about it you know i don't even know any jews should i not like the jews and then they do their own research quote unquote i'm going to do my own research on this
Marc:I would say that 90% of the time when you do your own research in a vague, broad way with no specific context, it's not going to lead anywhere good.
Marc:So isn't it easier just to say, yeah, you know what?
Marc:I don't think I like them.
Marc:as opposed to really embrace or learn about history and what it really means to be Jewish or what the Jewish people are really about or what they've contributed to your life?
Marc:Isn't it easier just to kind of poke around and go like, this George Soros guy sounds like a monster.
Marc:He's running the world.
Marc:Or you can go to the opposite end of the spectrum and be like, well, I kind of like Adam Sandler.
Marc:Those are, I think, the cultural touch points, I think, for most people in terms of Jews that they know from something.
Marc:George Soros and Adam Sandler.
Marc:Where do you stand, people?
Marc:Where do you stand?
Marc:Are you in the middle of that spectrum?
Marc:Are you moving more towards Sandler?
Marc:Are you moving more towards the demonization of the mythic George Soros?
Marc:Where are you on the Soros-Sandler spectrum in terms of anti-Semitism?
Marc:Think about it.
Marc:Am I helping you at all?
Marc:Am I helping you?
Marc:How are you feeling?
Marc:How are you feeling?
Marc:Once you hear this, I will have no more shows left before I tape my special.
Marc:And I was still going at an hour and a half, but I got it down to an hour and five on both of the Orange Peel shows.
Marc:But that was picking up the pace, picking up the intensity, pacing the stage like old school Marin, not sitting as much, trying to fucking work all the material in, but also trying to hold the sort of energy of a rock club.
Marc:It's a little difficult.
Marc:It's a wide room.
Marc:There's a bar in the room.
Marc:They were seated, but it's still a big echoey rock club, but it took a lot of energy.
Marc:And I did two shows, and I was running on very little sleep because the hotel was not comfortable.
Marc:I had the worst fucking pillows, man.
Marc:And I know it's not a big problem, but when you spend your life on the fucking road, shitty pillows will fuck you up for a day or two even.
Marc:And there's nothing you can do about it.
Marc:You just have to adapt.
Marc:And this was a fairly upscale.
Marc:I don't know if it was upscale, but it was a nice boutique hotel.
Marc:And you figure if they're going to go the distance and make everything cute, just fucking get good pillows.
Marc:Am I right?
Marc:I'm not going to mention names, but get some nice fucking pillows.
Marc:I mean, it's like it makes a big difference.
Marc:I can't move my fucking head right now.
Marc:but here's the point i've been to nashville before i have a lot of interesting memories in nashville i have memories of of playing bonnaroo i have memories of that nightmare i have memories well let's go further back coming down here and doing zanies i have memories of interviewing jack white over at his office uh and and you know being a third man for the first time when it was still a big deal i remember
Marc:coming down here and hanging out with David Berman after a show at Zaney's when he was living down here before he killed himself, obviously.
Marc:And he didn't want to do the podcast, but we sat in a restaurant, the only two patrons at the place.
Marc:And for two hours, he told me his life story and about his sort of almost weird Oedipal struggle, or at least a struggle to the soul death process.
Marc:with his father, and it was one of the most kind of darkest but exciting conversations I've ever had with David Berman, and we became kind of friends, but not really.
Marc:I emailed with him like two weeks before he passed, and we were gonna talk about that new record, that Purple Mountains record, but that didn't happen.
Marc:I remember being at Bonnaroo.
Marc:I remember going to Prince's Chicken the first time with Ryan Singer, Chad Ryden, and my face burning off and my eyes watering and thinking I might need to go to the hospital.
Marc:And then later, years later, I don't even know how many, I was at Bonnaroo.
Marc:I remember taking Kyle Kinane to Prince's Chicken, but I didn't get the hot stuff.
Marc:I got the medium and it was not satisfying.
Marc:I guess I wanted to burn my face off and try to figure out whether I need to go to the hospital or not.
Marc:I remember being down here and going to Arnold's meet in three.
Marc:I remember being down here playing this same place over here that I'm going to play tonight, the Polk Center at TPAC.
Marc:I remember running over to the Ryan to see Jason Isbell and sitting next to his manager.
Marc:And she told me how much his new 59 Sunbursts West Paul cost.
Marc:And I don't need to tell you about it, but it cost some bread, man.
Marc:Yeah, I remember Bonnaroo.
Marc:I remember being at Bonnaroo and actively deciding I will never do another festival again.
Marc:I will never do comedy at another festival again, even if it's an air-conditioned tent.
Marc:I will never do comedy at a rock festival again.
Marc:I remember trying to get to the front row of Radiohead at Bonnaroo because someone knew someone to get us there, and we almost got trampled and killed.
Marc:A lot of memories, a lot of memories.
Marc:Arnold's meeting three right next to a Carter's vintage guitars.
Marc:I remember almost buying one of Ed King's gold tops for $20,000, but I couldn't fucking fathom it.
Marc:And just think folks, had I done that, that might've been the gold top that fell down last week and broke its headstock off.
Marc:And that would have been different if it were Ed King's old gold top that cost me $20,000 as opposed to one that I got for free from Gibson for doing a video for Brendan Small and was not an original 56.
Marc:It was a new guitar.
Marc:Sad, but I imagine not as devastating, not as traumatic.
Marc:But here I am.
Marc:Here I am again in Nashville.
Marc:And I know I can't tell you how the show went because I don't know.
Marc:But I've got a plan.
Marc:I'm going to do this hour.
Marc:And I think I've got it.
Marc:And I got to stick with it.
Marc:It's like this is it.
Marc:I don't have any more time.
Marc:I don't have it.
Marc:It's got to happen.
Marc:So look, Clea Duvall is...
Marc:is someone I've always appreciated, loved her acting, and I really like this series.
Marc:It's called High School.
Marc:It's part of Amazon Free V, which you can stream, as the name says, for free.
Marc:It's also available on Prime Video.
Marc:Her animated series, House Broken, is on Fox and is streaming on Hulu.
Marc:They just released a one-hour holiday special, but I was moved by High School.
Marc:I get moved...
Marc:in general, by things shot around that time because it was such an uncomfortable time for me.
Marc:And I guess it triggers a lot of feelings that I don't always really realize I have.
Marc:So this is me talking to Clea Duvall.
Marc:Are you used to talking on mics?
Guest:Yeah, because I... Yes.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Because why?
Marc:You've done some cartoons?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Which cartoons?
Guest:I created an animated show, and it was the only way that I could ever get voiceover work was creating this animated show called House Broken with two of the writers from Veep.
Marc:Oh, when did that happen?
Marc:I didn't know about that.
Guest:Yeah, we first aired last summer, and then we've been off the air, but then this year we have two holiday episodes.
Marc:Where was it on?
Guest:On Fox.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Is it popular?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Not yet.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But I hear that that's normal for early days.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's hard to know.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:When something's popular.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Especially now.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what justifies it?
Marc:What makes something popular?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And can you get real numbers?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Does anyone give a shit?
Marc:You're kind of sort of relying on Twitter and weird mail.
Marc:Email.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Look, four people like it.
Marc:That means something.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:People are doing erotic drawings of our characters.
Guest:That's good, right?
Marc:That means people like it.
Marc:It's a good family show.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Are they doing erotic?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's what we heard was a good sign as if people are sexualizing our characters.
Guest:Cartoons.
Guest:They're cartoons.
Guest:They're also animals.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's animals in group therapy.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So who's that hurting?
Marc:Sexualizing animal cartoons.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:It's like Big Mouth.
Marc:I think Big Mouth gets a lot of that.
Marc:People doing tattoos of the characters.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a testament to some sort of following.
Marc:But sometimes it's a little disturbing.
Guest:It is, but I enjoy it.
Guest:I enjoy the creativity.
Marc:Yeah, absolutely.
Marc:If something instigates or inspires creativity, it's great.
Marc:So I don't know if we've met before, have we?
Guest:I was thinking about that.
Guest:I feel like maybe we have in passing.
Marc:Yeah, I think at The Place.
Guest:Yeah, at The Place.
Guest:I have a memory of you from The Place and I can't even remember if we actually met or if it was just a like, hey, how you doing?
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:I could probably use The Place.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I'm not frequenting the place enough lately.
Guest:Yeah, I haven't been to the place in a little while.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm okay, but you know.
Guest:Exactly, yeah.
Marc:So did you, like I was looking, because you're one of these people that I feel like I've known for years because I've seen you in things for years.
Marc:And did you, where'd you grow up, here?
Guest:I grew up in Los Angeles, yeah.
Marc:That's crazy, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, the whole time?
Guest:Yeah, the whole time.
Guest:I've never lived anywhere else.
Marc:Do you have brothers and sisters?
Guest:No, just me.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Was that weird?
Guest:I mean, it was what I knew.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it wasn't until much later that I realized that it is weird.
Marc:When I meet only children, I always ask the same question.
Marc:And for a while, everyone said I was wrong, which was that didn't you feel like that was a lot of pressure?
Yeah.
Guest:I mean, yes and no.
Guest:My parents were not super focused on me.
Marc:Yeah, because they're in the biz, right?
Guest:No, they're not.
Guest:I didn't grow up around the business at all.
Marc:You didn't?
Guest:No.
Marc:What's your old man do?
Guest:He did a lot of sort of odd jobs.
Guest:He did start acting when I was older.
Guest:On your coattails?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:When I was like an older kid, when I was probably like 11 or 12 or something, he started.
Marc:So not early on.
Guest:No.
Marc:They were just regular people in Los Angeles?
Guest:Yeah, just regular people.
Marc:What did he do?
Guest:Odd jobs.
Guest:Odd jobs, yeah.
Guest:He didn't really have like a career.
Marc:And your mom?
Guest:My mom worked.
Guest:She also had odd jobs.
Guest:She did a lot of like accounting work.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But just regular folks?
Guest:Yeah, just regular folks.
Marc:So how did you end up drifting into show business?
Guest:Well, when my dad started getting into acting, he would do acting classes.
Marc:You were 11?
Guest:Yeah, 11 or 12.
Guest:And he would be preparing for scenes and stuff for his acting classes, and I would read them with him and got super into it, and I would get in whatever outfit of the character I was playing
Guest:And he would teach me how to deconstruct scenes and all that stuff, and I really loved it.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because he's sort of a weird character actor, right?
Guest:Yeah, he's a character actor, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And he does kind of scary things usually?
Guest:Sometimes, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He always plays very intense guys.
Marc:Is he an intense guy?
Guest:Yeah, he's an intense guy, yeah.
Marc:Is he still around?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And you guys get along?
Guest:We, you know, it's complicated.
Guest:Like, all families are complicated.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And as you get older, like, all you can do is sort of, you know, accept or draw a line.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Like, I talked to Colin Hanks yesterday.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, and it's just sort of like everyone's got things, you know what I mean?
Marc:And you either integrate them.
Marc:I talk about it on stage all the time.
Marc:I don't really know what to do with it.
Marc:Usually when people say to me, you know, you know, you're almost 60.
Marc:Are you still mad at your parents?
Marc:Yeah, a little bit.
Marc:It's like, does that go away or do we just shove it down?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I mean, I don't feel mad.
Guest:I think I spent a lot of time feeling mad at my parents, and I think I am now overwhelmed by compassion for them.
Marc:Oh, see, that's what happens if they live long enough.
Guest:Well, my mom passed away when I was 27.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:And that...
Guest:I think was like an overdose of compassion once she got sick because I was very angry with her for a very long time and our relationship was in a very bad place when I found out she was sick.
Guest:And then there was something about that that just like kind of knocked it all out of me.
Guest:And I was able to see her as a human being and be, you know, she was sick for a year before she died and like spend time with her.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was not evolved enough to have the conversations that we should have had, but at least... Was it around acceptance?
Guest:Yeah, around acceptance.
Guest:I was really mad at her for how she handled my coming out, but I didn't realize that until many years later.
Guest:It was just...
Marc:So were you able to have any of those conversations?
Guest:No, I didn't know I was mad.
Marc:Oh, right.
Guest:I just knew I was mad, but I didn't know why.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you were able to show up for her.
Guest:Yes, I was able to show up for her and spend time with her.
Marc:Well, that's good.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, because my old man's got like, he's got dimension now.
Marc:So there's sort of a race against time.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I don't feel like we have anything to resolve, but just to stay in the memory.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Yeah.
Marc:What did she have, your mom?
Guest:She had cancer.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Were they still married when it happened?
Guest:No, my parents divorced when I was 12, I think.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, so you started acting young, though, right?
Marc:18.
Marc:And how did that unfold?
Marc:Because you always have a fairly profound presence in whatever you're in, I believe.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's nice.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:It is.
Marc:Like you're a memorable person.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:And what was the first thing?
Guest:The first thing was a very bad movie that was a ripoff of the craft called Little Witches.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And we were witches at a Catholic boarding school who summoned the devil over Easter break.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And what was your experience with that?
Marc:Did you feel confident as an actor at that time because you had done so much of this stuff with your dad?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I was nervous, but it was fun.
Guest:I was also so young that I didn't know how scary.
Marc:Who else was in it?
Guest:Zelda Rubinstein.
Guest:And I remember Exine Cervanca was in it, but I don't remember how big her part was.
Guest:And then it was a lot of newer actors.
Marc:But no one we know now?
Guest:No.
Marc:No.
Marc:It's so weird, right?
Marc:Do you ever think about that cast?
Marc:It's like, what happened to them?
Guest:I do think about them because we were so bonded because I think all of our first movies.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you're like kids.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then they just kind of go away.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's weird when you find those people.
Marc:Sometimes they're still in the business, but they're like, well, I'm doing theater.
Marc:I live in St.
Marc:Louis.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, there was one of the girls I stayed friends with, and I think she lives in Texas now, but I think she's business adjacent somehow, but I don't really know.
Marc:And when did you start really feeling like you were starting to be able to do it?
Marc:Well, I guess Wildflowers has sort of a following, doesn't it?
Guest:Does it?
Guest:I haven't encountered a ton of people who have seen it, but that movie is the reason why I have a career.
Marc:How so?
Guest:Well, I was working at Buzz Coffee on Sunset, which is now a Starbucks.
Guest:It's where the Sunset Five, that is now in AMC.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:On Crescent Heights.
Marc:Yeah, right at Crescent Heights, in the mall.
Guest:Yeah, in the mall.
Guest:I was working there, and I got an audition for this movie, Wildflowers.
Guest:And Sheila Jaffe, who is an incredible casting director, brought me in.
Guest:They were seeing every girl in Hollywood.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I auditioned with her and she just kind of took a liking to me.
Guest:And then she would come into Buzz because her office was down the street and we would just like sit and talk and she really got behind me.
Guest:And then I had a call back with the director and then the director really liked me.
Guest:But the financier did not.
Guest:They wanted more of a like blonde, you know, girl next door type of person.
Guest:And I was not that.
Guest:But they really dug their heels in.
Guest:And then the financiers were like, okay, if you want this girl, then you can't have the money.
Guest:So they pulled the money.
Guest:But because of that, we went to the Sundance Filmmakers Lab with the project.
Guest:Who'd you work with?
Guest:James Gandolfini.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:played my dad at the lab, and he was supposed to be in the movie, but he couldn't, maybe because of... The Sopranos?
Marc:The Sopranos, maybe.
Marc:I wonder, I'm trying, I don't know what year that started, but how was it like meeting that guy?
Guest:Awesome, he was so fantastic.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah, he was an amazing actor to work with, and such a sweet guy, and it was really, I felt very lucky that...
Marc:That's great.
Marc:Because I know that the Sundance Lab, they have mentorships kind of thing.
Marc:Like people work, you know, if you work with somebody or someone shepherds you through it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But he played your dad.
Marc:Who else was involved?
Guest:I can't remember the name of the actress who played my mom, but there were amazing creative advisors that year.
Guest:Like Kathy Bates was there.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Guest:Sally Field.
Guest:Whoa.
Guest:David Cronenberg came and screened Crash before it came out.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:That must have been the turning point.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I met there, Robin Tunney, who introduced me to her manager, Myrna Jacoby.
Guest:And Myrna was really, you know, she really brought me into a, into the real business.
Guest:You know, I was sort of on the outskirts and Myrna worked so hard for me and really like helped give me a career.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Wow, so that was sort of like some baptism into the business.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You met everybody all at once.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And all those films before, they didn't really do anything?
Marc:You were just kind of scrambling?
Guest:Well, I hadn't done those films.
Guest:All of that came after I went to Sundance.
Guest:So I had done the Little Witches movie, and then I did some commercials that allowed me to quit my coffee job.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then start acting for real.
Guest:And then I would get guest stars on ER.
Marc:That was after Wildflowers?
Marc:Or before?
Marc:Before.
Guest:Because the movie fell apart.
Guest:And we went to the lab.
Guest:And we didn't end up making it for a couple years.
Guest:So I did The Faculty.
Guest:And then Girl Interrupted and stuff happened after that.
Guest:But Wildflowers hadn't come out yet.
Guest:So it was sort of in this string of movies.
Marc:But you were just working.
Marc:You did commercials and stuff.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I only ever got one commercial, but it turned into like 12 commercials.
Marc:For what?
Guest:For Kudos bars.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Granola bars.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I guess that's not a big sellout.
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, listen, it was only my second job, so I couldn't be selling it.
Guest:Too soon.
Marc:But it's like it's not something awful.
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:Yeah, you know what I mean?
Marc:It's a granola bar.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're helping people.
Guest:Yeah, it's not like ammunition or something like that.
Marc:You're not selling guns.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But I guess the reason I thought Wildflowers had some sort of retroactive attention, it was sort of a subversively almost gay movie.
Yeah.
Guest:Yes, it definitely had some gay undertones to it and incestuous undertones because it was like that vibe was with the long lost mother character.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But I mean, nothing ever happened, but it definitely was- A little loaded?
Guest:A little loaded.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:The whole thing felt very loaded.
Marc:And do you find that since you've come out that people look at your previous career and see you in a different way and rethink things?
Guest:I mean, listen, I don't think I was fooling anybody at the time.
Guest:You know, let's be real.
Marc:You knew.
Guest:Yeah, I knew.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And people in my life knew, but it wasn't.
Guest:And I, you know, like I think that there is just I do.
Guest:I do find that now people talk about a lot of my roles as gay roles, even like in the faculty, which I wasn't actually gay.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And I was pretending to be gay.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But it was pretty gay.
Guest:It was all pretty gay.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, it's sort of interesting that, I mean, you kind of know that, and even if it's suggested, but now that you can own it, then, you know, people in the community can own it as well.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:So it becomes sort of, you become a representative in a way.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Which is cool.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But did you feel that before you came out?
Marc:Like, did you feel like there was pressure or?
Marc:I did feel a lot of pressure.
Marc:Because when did you, it took a while, huh?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I came out around like after like if I mean, I was I was out in my life when I was 16.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Like, yeah, I came out at 16.
Guest:But then professionally, it didn't happen until I was 30.
Guest:16.
Marc:OK, so that like so that was that was why it was difficult for your mom.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Like what what was her particular reaction to it?
Marc:Well, was it like, you know, like you are you sure it was?
Guest:She was mad and she just did.
Guest:She just didn't want it to be real.
Marc:Right.
Guest:She doesn't believe in it.
Marc:Interesting.
Guest:So she thought it was something that like I was doing wrong that she needed to fix or I needed to fix.
Marc:Didn't believe in it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Or at least not for you that there, you know, you must be wrong.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That I. Yeah.
Marc:But you weren't religious.
Marc:They weren't, were they?
Guest:My mom was raised Catholic, and I think that really stuck.
Guest:But I think she really believed.
Guest:I mean, I know she really believed that it was something that I could get rid of and that I should get rid of.
Guest:And I was like, no, I shouldn't.
Guest:There's nothing wrong with me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you took that position right away.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's good that you had the fortitude to not feel like you were wrong or sick or whatever.
Marc:And what about your old man?
Guest:He was just mad that I told my mom first.
Guest:He was really mad at me because he had asked me
Guest:before I came out to my mom and I said no, because I was so thrown off by it.
Marc:By her reaction?
Guest:No, I was thrown off by him asking me.
Guest:Oh, okay, yeah.
Guest:And I was not ready to come out yet, so I said no to him.
Guest:And then later, when I came out to my mom, and then my mom called my dad and told him he was mad at me and didn't talk to me for a while because I lied to him.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Guest:And I was like, but I'm a child.
Marc:And it's a heavy thing and I'm nervous.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm not ready to say that to myself.
Guest:I mean, I was saying it was about the person, quote unquote.
Guest:And so I was saying that until I was like 30.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:What do you mean about the person?
Guest:That it's to not have to say that you're gay, to not have to say that I was gay, that I was like, you know, I could be with a man or a woman.
Guest:It's really about the person.
Marc:Right, right.
Guest:I skated by on that for a while.
Marc:Is that a common thing?
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Marc:And that somehow is just to pander to stray people.
Guest:I think it's really, I think it's about, I mean, for me, I can't speak for everybody, but for me, it was really about my own internalized homophobia and not wanting to be gay.
Guest:Wishing that I could just be quote unquote normal.
Marc:You experienced that?
Marc:Oh yeah.
Marc:From when you were a kid?
Guest:I think it was, I mean, not when I was a kid, because I didn't even really think about gayness when I was a kid.
Guest:But then once I started realizing that I was having these feelings, I didn't want to admit that I was gay.
Guest:It just felt scary.
Marc:Right, but the homophobia didn't manifest as you hating yourself.
Marc:You just didn't want to deal with what being gay would bring you in terms of culturally.
Guest:But I do think that there was some shame attached to it.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you had no control over it?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:So how long does it take to work through that stuff?
Guest:I mean, for me, it really took... It was like in my 30s is when I started to feel better about it.
Guest:And I kind of let go of that.
Marc:That's a long time.
Marc:That's a long time, yeah.
Marc:So you had done a lot of movies.
Marc:Like when you were in But I'm a Cheerleader and all these movies, you knew and your friends knew, but you still weren't really out.
Yeah.
Guest:Not professionally, no.
Marc:And was there a reason for not?
Marc:Did you feel like you couldn't do it professionally?
Guest:I did feel like I couldn't do it professionally.
Guest:And there were people close to me, professional people close to me who were like, you just...
Guest:In the 90s, it was just sort of a given that you would be closeted.
Guest:There was no conversation about it.
Guest:It was more like this silent understanding of, okay, well, that's a thing we don't talk about.
Marc:Yeah, why make a big deal?
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:We're working.
Guest:Yeah, why limit yourself?
Guest:Why get pigeonholed?
Guest:You just don't talk about it.
Guest:So it always felt like this unspoken agreement that it was something that I would keep to myself.
Marc:With your representatives.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Marc:And and then you when did you come out finally?
Guest:It was what I mean, I never did a like big people magazine.
Guest:Yep, I'm gay cover.
Guest:No, it was just I when I when I wrote the first movie that I directed.
Guest:And I knew I wanted to write a part for myself.
Guest:And I had this moment of, okay, I can write a straight character.
Guest:Or I can write a character that is really true to who I am.
Guest:And I decided to write a gay character.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:and then knew that because of that, then that meant that I would be, you know, talking about my own sexuality when press came up, like inevitably it would just happen.
Guest:And so that was sort of the moment that I was like, okay, I think I'm ready to talk about this.
Marc:So you kind of, you created a scenario where you would be comfortable.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:And you could just sort of like, you know, not make a big deal of it, but just kind of casually.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And that, oh, that was smart.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Just ease it in.
Marc:And that was for The Intervention?
Marc:Yeah, The Intervention.
Marc:And that was the first movie that you wrote, directed yourself.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So throughout it all, were you always thinking about writing and directing?
Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I wanted to be a writer originally when I was a kid.
Guest:I would sit in my room and write for eight hours.
Guest:So that's always what I thought I would end up doing.
Guest:But directing when working with Robert Rodriguez really made filmmaking feel accessible.
Guest:Which movie was that?
Guest:On the faculty.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:He was just so inclusive and so excited about filmmaking and wanted to share it with everyone.
Guest:And that sort of sparked that, you know, the desire in me.
Marc:And you were young.
Guest:Yeah, I was 20.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So he was that's where you saw how it all worked.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And he would let me get on the crane and pull focus and would come to work every day and show us something he had edited.
Guest:Really?
Guest:He's the most inclusive director I've ever worked with.
Guest:Out in Texas?
Guest:Yeah, in Austin.
Guest:That was so fun.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that sparked that in me, but I didn't really start trying to do that until a lot later.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:Well, was there other experiences with directors that informed your approach or that, you know, what kind of picking up this stuff was as you went?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I've been lucky to work with so many great directors and really keep my eyes open.
Guest:And like I'm the actor who when I'm not shooting, I'm still on set just observing because I love being on set.
Marc:Yeah, because the trailers are the worst.
Guest:the trailers are the worst and it's just you know you only get to be on set for a little while you know you only get the thing ends you stop shooting and it's really you know and I it's the best job in the world and we're so lucky to get to do it right there is never a day that I'm on set that I don't
Guest:I know that.
Guest:So I just like to make the most of it when I'm there.
Guest:So, you know, I would always sort of just watch and see how the directors worked with not only the actors, but like with the crew and, you know, what they did and pick, you know, really paid attention to the directors who were doing it well and the ones who weren't.
Marc:It's a strange magical place to be on set.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because you're just converging on this moment where it's like everyone shuts up.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And this thing happens.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's like wild because there's all this activity and then it's like action.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's really cool.
Marc:It is.
Marc:I don't think I've gotten specifically excited about that before until just now really thinking about it.
Marc:Because I'm the same way.
Marc:I'll sit on set because I just can't stand...
Marc:to be in the trailer, and I just like to go to craft services over and over again and eat stuff and wonder what kind of food.
Marc:It's really a lot about food on set for me.
Guest:I mean, I think that's true for everybody.
Guest:The day starts, you have your breakfast, and then you're like, when is the mid-morning snack happening?
Marc:Sure, sure.
Marc:And who's going to eat that fucking donut?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Who ate half of it and left half of it there?
Marc:Which person did that?
Marc:Yeah, it's always about food.
Marc:But yeah, but it's really true about that moment.
Marc:Because I try really hard to, because I didn't come up an actor, so I'm getting opportunities to do it.
Marc:And I have a hard time sort of thinking that the waiting six hours is worth the three minutes or 12 minutes that you repeat the same thing over and over again for however long it's going to be in the movie.
Marc:It's really hard for me.
Marc:And also, no matter how many sets you've been on, you know how it's going to go.
Marc:There's a point where you're waiting where you go like, what the fuck are they doing?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But you know what they're doing.
Marc:Like, well, there's just still lighting.
Marc:How is that possible?
Guest:Yeah, it is pretty... It's pretty wild the way time works on sets.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where sometimes it just goes so fast and then sometimes it is just dragging out and you don't understand what's happening.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But...
Marc:But it sounds like your interest in everything would have made it a little easier.
Marc:But I guess my question was, have you always been able to... Obviously, you've been acting a long time, and you're good at it, and you take risks, and you seem to keep evolving.
Marc:So were you early on able to make that time on camera, like when you converged on the moment where it was your time to act...
Marc:to make that rewarding somehow do you know because i because that's you have to find meaning in that yeah and it's not a long time that you're doing it you may be sitting around a long time yeah but do you find you you feel connected to it and you find meaning in it i mean sometimes not always right you know there are definitely certain scenes that i walk away and i'm like well i never want to act again
Guest:I would say 60% of the time that I'm on set now, I am thinking I should never do this again.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I hate it.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:And then- Is that just you being hard on yourself?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:It's me being like, why did anyone-
Guest:Hire me for this.
Guest:Like I used to have something and now I don't.
Guest:And, you know, but then, you know, but then the other 40 percent of the time it like clicks in and it locks and you really connect with that person.
Guest:And like you have a director who's giving you notes that allow you to unlock new things in the scene.
Guest:And it's really exciting.
Guest:And that's worth it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do you get to that?
Marc:Are you one of those people?
Marc:I'm one of those people.
Marc:I do it, too.
Marc:When the director is sort of like, okay, we got it.
Marc:And you're like, no.
Marc:Are you sure?
Marc:Where you doubt them.
Marc:They're the ones who are making the decision, but you don't feel good about the take?
Guest:I've gotten to the place where I'm just like, okay, you say so.
Guest:You know what you're looking for.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:You have to.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I also, I am my own worst critic.
Guest:So it is rare that I do a take and I'm like...
Guest:nailed it yeah you know that that does not happen right i'm always going to feel like oh that moment didn't feel quite right but it's also like they know right how it's going to cut together and they know what they need right yeah yeah and i don't so i sort of give over i think directing has helped me give over more as an actor yeah because i just know that you know i know that they know what they want and what they need right scene
Guest:And if I'm not giving them something in this specific moment, it's probably because in their mind, they know that they're gonna be on a different shot anyway.
Marc:Right, right, exactly, yeah.
Marc:Or when they decide not to do a shot.
Marc:That's always the weird thing, where it's like, we're not gonna do these three pages.
Marc:I'm like, but I did the, all right.
Marc:It seems like you do get a lot of heavier roles.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And what do you attribute that to?
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, I am a very silly person.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I really enjoy funny people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I don't know.
Guest:I think maybe, I think it's probably from when I was younger and I was a more serious, more shy, reserved person.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I also wasn't just, you know, a bubbly girl.
Guest:And so I think, you know, people are like, well, then you must be dark.
Guest:And like, let's hire you to be the girl who like kills someone or gets killed or has a drug problem, you know.
Marc:You just became that person.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did things change specifically in how you were treated after you came out?
Marc:Did you find...
Guest:I mean, I definitely got a lot more offers to play gay people.
Marc:They were like, we got one.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:But I mean, I think it's also there are a lot more gay roles now.
Guest:You know, it was a lot more rare before.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You're able to see this shift in culture.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like, you know, like the second film that you did, the kind of family, the holiday movie.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, you couldn't have made that 10 years ago.
Guest:No.
Marc:Right?
Marc:No.
Marc:And it's like sort of an amazing thing.
Guest:It is.
Guest:It really is.
Marc:And when you worked on that, do you feel like sort of an elder in the sense that you are able to take your talent and create these worlds in a cultural that's more accepting and it kind of strengthens the sort of community and the trip?
Yeah.
Guest:I mean, with that movie, it really just felt like, you know, I felt so lucky that we got to make it and that it, you know, that there were so many people who wanted to make it.
Guest:That was so exciting.
Marc:I don't think we said the name of the movie.
Marc:Oh, Happiest Season.
Guest:Yeah, Happiest Season.
Guest:Yeah, it was, you know, and there were so many gay people on the set.
Guest:And I'm so used to always being the only gay person on the set.
Yeah.
Guest:And that was so fun.
Guest:It just it really just felt like this very accepting warm environment.
Marc:Representation is an interesting thing in the sense that when it's real.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You do have this weird sense of community that you don't usually have.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, and it's not sort of like, well, there's one here.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it's like you feel like everybody's the collaboration is different.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:And it's also like, it changes the crew too.
Guest:And like, cause the, I've on Happiest Season, there were some gay crew members who I didn't know were gay, you know, who like found there, who really wanted to be a part of the project and then would pull me aside, kind of pulled me aside, you know, as we got a couple of weeks in and they were like, you know, I'm gay and I found out about this project and I really wanted to work on it.
Guest:So excited to be able to work on that.
Guest:And it's just, you know, it's not just about the, you know, people in front of the camera.
Guest:It is everyone in the film industry who feeling like they want to be a part of something that represents their own experience.
Marc:And it enables people to do that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And also own it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I've really come in some... There's something happening in the way that I'm feeling about... I get really kind of annoyed when people are like, I'm a storyteller, and all that shit.
Marc:It's important to be authentic, and these words.
Marc:But you start to realize that in the cultural climate we're in, and when you really have this sense of there being two worlds and two media worlds even...
Marc:I used to think, does it really matter or are we just sort of like a tree falling in the forest when you do this stuff?
Marc:Are we still just preaching to the choir or whatever?
Marc:But the truth of the matter is that on some level, the fight for inclusion in our business is going to mirror and represent and have a profound impact.
Marc:Yeah, especially in a world where everybody's isolated and thinks everybody's like a hateful fuck.
Marc:It does make a big difference.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do you feel that?
Guest:Oh, yeah, it does.
Marc:Like I used to be I don't know if I was hopeless, but cynical about it.
Marc:It's like, hey, we're having we're really having a lot of success integrating fiction.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, you know, how's that going to work in the real world?
Marc:But I think it does.
Marc:And I think, oddly, you know, most people live in fairly kind of diverse and different type of workspaces and lives.
Marc:You know, it's not it's not really that segregated.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I guess I'm just excited about it.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:So early on, though, when you're struggling with blaming yourself, did you ever feel it would do you in?
Marc:Did you feel like you were going to self-destruct because of it?
Guest:Because of being gay?
Yeah.
Guest:I mean, oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I definitely thought, oh, I'm not going to have a career anymore.
Guest:People are going to find out.
Guest:Like, I already am up against so much just because of not looking like the, you know, typical actress, you know, and that when people know I'm gay, then that's going to be the end.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you live with that every day.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, I think actors also like every actor, no matter who they are, thinks they're never going to work again.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I'm sure even the most successful people are like, well, that's it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'll never have another hit movie, you know.
Guest:But so then to be someone who was like kind of weird and then also gay, I was just like this.
Guest:This can't get out, even though I'm not doing a great job.
Guest:Hiding it just by, you know, walking around and existing.
Guest:It was still like, I don't need to talk about it.
Marc:And who are your peers in the business?
Marc:Do you have acting people that you are friends with?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Natasha Lyonne and Melanie Linsky and Carly Gallow are all my best friends.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Those are the best ladies.
Guest:They're the best ladies.
Guest:The best ladies.
Guest:And we've all been friends for, I mean, God, so long.
Guest:for 25 years.
Marc:Natasha went through some serious shit, man.
Marc:She did.
Marc:She did.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:I mean, that resurrection was crazy.
Marc:It's really incredible what she's... I mean, when I talked to her years ago, she was just coming out of whatever the fuck that was.
Marc:And, you know, she'll talk about it, but you're like, oh, my God.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, I just talked to Wes Bentley.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it was like, Jesus, man.
Marc:Like, dark times.
Guest:He's doing well, though?
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, he's on Yellowstone.
Marc:He's like 10 years sober.
Marc:Oh, that's awesome.
Marc:He's public about it.
Marc:He's got a family.
Marc:You know, he's got clarity.
Marc:He's grounded.
Guest:That's nice.
Marc:It's crazy.
Guest:Someone was just talking to me about Yellowstone this morning.
Marc:People are talking about it.
Guest:People love this show.
Marc:They do.
Marc:I gotta watch it.
Marc:And like smart, weird people like it.
Marc:You know, it's easy to be like, what is it, a cowboy thing?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you know, I guess people like Deadwood and I never watched that.
Guest:I never watched Deadwood either.
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:It just seemed too complicated.
Yeah.
Guest:It seemed complicated.
Guest:I don't like old-timey stuff.
Marc:You don't?
Guest:I like everything set in modern day.
Marc:Well, I think looking at the happiest season, and I watched all of the Tegan and Sarah show.
Marc:I watched the whole season.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Marc:I didn't expect to.
Marc:But there's something about high school stuff where I'm just sitting there crying like an idiot.
Yeah.
Marc:It's so hard.
Marc:It is.
Marc:I know.
Marc:But I think what's interesting about the sort of presentation in context of, you know, the happiest season, which is, you know, the subject matter is what it is.
Marc:And it's, you know, it's certainly gay friendly and gay, you know, driven.
Marc:But the context is something that everybody knows.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:And I think that's the same with this new one, right?
Marc:It seems like you went out of your way to sort of explore the beginning of the sexuality of one of them.
Marc:But it's really set in a very matter-of-fact kind of way.
Marc:It's not loaded.
Marc:It's not indie.
Marc:But it's just sort of like, this is high school.
Marc:This is the way it was.
Marc:This is the way it is for these kids.
Marc:And that's a decision.
Guest:Yeah, it is.
Guest:I mean, it's...
Guest:With Happiest Season, I'm such a fan of Christmas movies, and I really just wanted to make a Christmas movie with a character that I could relate to at the center of it.
Guest:And not trying to blow up the genre, really just trying to have a story told from a different perspective.
Marc:A perspective that you were familiar with and that was somehow never been seen before, really.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so that, you know, so I just I approached it just like I was making a Christmas movie.
Guest:And, you know, with with high school, it was I approached it like making a coming of age story.
Guest:It's like I think and really wanting it to feel timeless and classic.
Guest:And I think, you know, it was the same approach with Happiest Season of just like I want it to be something that can last, that doesn't feel dated, that doesn't feel like it's being weighed down by.
Guest:you know, by anything.
Guest:A period.
Guest:Yeah, a period, like really just something that, you know, with high school, like something that felt very representative of what I grew up with as a kid in the 90s and wanting it to feel like that and really, you know, just trying to connect with that rather than, you know.
Marc:I think it was, and The Happy Season, that's found like an audience for itself, right?
Marc:It is a...
Guest:Yeah, people like it.
Marc:It is a movie that people watch at the holiday times.
Guest:That's what people tell me, yeah.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's sweet.
Marc:Who do you find tells you that?
Guest:I mean, just people that I meet on the street or people will tweet at me.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Friends will say, oh, now we watch it.
Guest:That's our new Christmas movie that we watch every year.
Marc:It's really so meaningful.
Marc:How did your first movie do?
Guest:It did okay.
Guest:Some people liked it and some people didn't like it.
Marc:But it showed that you were capable.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And getting the opportunity for The Happiest Season, which you co-wrote, what was the big jump in that process?
Marc:Because that's kind of a big movie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, yes, it was.
Marc:How'd you pull it together?
Marc:Did you get cast first or you had the script first?
Marc:The script first.
Guest:The script first.
Guest:And then we went to we took it around to studios because we knew we wanted to make it a studio movie.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And who did it?
Guest:It was Tristar.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:Haven't heard that name in a while.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Are they still around?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what was who, like who championed it?
Marc:Who said, okay, this sounds great.
Guest:It was Hannah Mengele, who was running TriStar at the time, and Sherry Shirazi, who's an executive at TriStar, who's still there.
Guest:And then Hannah ended up leaving, working somewhere else, and then Nicole Brown, who is still there, became our executive, and they really supported it and made it happen.
Yeah.
Marc:Good actresses.
Guest:Great actresses.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because I worked with Brie for a while.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:She's awesome.
Marc:She is, isn't she?
Marc:She really is.
Marc:She's got a birthday coming up.
Marc:She does.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:She's very focused and very funny.
Marc:It was very interesting doing Glow with like Gilpin and Brie because they're two totally different approaches.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, it's wild when you see, because like, again, I didn't come up acting, but it's really interesting to see how people approach it.
Marc:And you can see how they work.
Marc:And, you know, like, like Allison is like, you know, making choices and, you know, and she knows exactly what she's going to do when she goes and she's going to do it every time, you know, and Gilpin, you're like, I don't know what's going to happen.
Marc:You know, it's fun.
Marc:It is.
Marc:How do you do it?
Guest:I mean, I have a base, and then I allow what my scene partners are doing to help evolve it.
Guest:But it also depends on what it is.
Guest:Because on Veep, I was working with these comic geniuses, and I was not that.
Marc:Aren't they?
Marc:They are all brilliant.
Marc:I've talked to Julia, and you're sort of like, oh, my God.
Marc:There's no one funnier than this person ever.
Guest:No.
Guest:She is an absolute genius, and I could not believe what she did.
Guest:And I was also just like, I'm just here to support you.
Guest:And my character was so stone-faced all the time and so monotone that I was really just there to...
Guest:support everyone else around me.
Marc:But that was a choice, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You must have been directed because the character is funny, your character.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Only because you're the only grounded one in the whole fucking mess.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right?
Marc:So you turn out to be the reference of what's these people?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But was that something that you knew or that you were directed to do?
Guest:It was the, I mean, I came in with the, I mean, I'm trying to remember like what the description was.
Guest:It was just that she's very sort of serious and humorless.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But then, you know, I think as it went on, finding these, you know, finding these moments and like the writers were so good at, you know, giving her new little weird things.
Guest:Right.
Guest:She definitely got weirder and more specific.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I think it was really, you know, I think also through working, you know, being in the scenes and working with Julia and like that dynamic got so funny just because.
Marc:Did she make suggestions and stuff?
Guest:Yeah, she was very involved in everything.
Marc:Because it's one of those relationships on screen, too, where you're being used by the daughter as a reaction, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Which I think probably happens.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Have you ever been in that experience in real life?
Guest:I mean...
Marc:Not that I can think of off the top of my head.
Marc:But I don't know that the character necessarily knew that.
Guest:No, she definitely didn't.
Guest:I think she's very... Earnest?
Guest:Very earnest to a fault.
Guest:And there's no place for that in the Veep world.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that must have been a blast if I can... It was the greatest.
Guest:It was the greatest job I've ever had.
Marc:It was so fun, yeah.
Marc:You were on it a lot.
Guest:I did three seasons.
Marc:So that's a lot.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So with this Tegan and Sarah thing, like sadly, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm too old to have experienced them as performers, but I did go listen to stuff and I, and I didn't really, I don't know that I realized until I watched the first episode.
Marc:Cause I, I'm like, I do my homework, but I don't, I don't, it takes me a while to realize that it was really a true story.
Yeah.
Marc:And it's sort of like it makes it unique.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because like you can't really just come up with this idea like these twins.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Who happen to be pop stars.
Marc:And one of them, I don't know if they're, are they both gay?
Marc:Yeah, they're both gay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So they, because I don't know.
Marc:I know where the one's at.
Marc:But we don't know at the end of the season what's going to happen with the other one.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But you can't really construct that.
Marc:When did you know I got to tell this story?
Guest:Well, I read their book.
Guest:I've been friends with them for like 15 years.
Guest:We've collaborated in a lot of different ways.
Guest:I've directed things for them.
Guest:They've done music for my movies.
Guest:We've worked together a lot and they gave me an early copy of their book and I read it.
Guest:in a day and just fell in love with it it really just captured what you know what the experience what what my experience of coming coming of age and coming out was in the 90s and i really you know i had never really thought about doing a come like telling a coming of age story yeah but it this one just really struck me and so i called tegan the day after i read it and just said you know don't
Guest:Don't give your book to someone to adapt it.
Guest:Like if you're going to have, if you're going to turn it into anything, let me do it.
Guest:And then you'll still be able to be involved and have a say over how your story is being portrayed on screen.
Guest:And they said yes.
Guest:And so that's how it happened to be.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, what's interesting is like, you know, when you see, like I watched, I've seen, you know, I saw Bo Burnham's movie, Eighth Grade.
Oh, mm-hmm.
Marc:And I watched Euphoria, which was like, just like, I felt like I wasn't even supposed to be watching that.
Marc:And, you know, because I'm like, that can't be high school, can it?
Marc:But then, like, I don't know if it is or not.
Marc:But when you watch your show, like, this is clearly a show written with a sensitivity to people of that age.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:and appropriate to a time, and it handles things in a sort of real-life way.
Marc:But it feels specifically like something parents and kids could watch and find some acceptance or some warmth and open-mindedness there.
Marc:And you saw that at the beginning.
Marc:You were like,
Guest:Yeah, that was a big reason why I wanted to turn it into a show and not a movie is because I felt like in a show you could really expand the world and see the perspectives of not only Tegan and Sarah.
Marc:I like that way you shoot that, where you're literally, you'll put the name of the character.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And sometimes you'll show the same situation from two points of view leading up to the same moment.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And being able to do that with the parents and the friends and really because I think that, you know, what Tegan and Sarah really when they were writing the book, they really had to put themselves back in, you know, what they were thinking and how they were feeling as teenagers.
Guest:They couldn't bring their adult selves to it, you know, but I think.
Guest:That is, you know, for me, my adult self has, you know, has recontextualized my whole childhood and like my parents and all this stuff.
Guest:And it's so valuable.
Guest:And I think that's where so much where empathy comes from is being able to, you know, look at something that you thought you understood and see it in a different way.
Marc:And that comes down on you heavy as you get older.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, if you're lucky.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, you don't want to be a stubborn, immature person your whole life, right?
Marc:But sometimes, like, you know, you just... Like, I'm 59, and it just... It seems to happen every day.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Where I'm sort of like, oh, my God.
Marc:Like, you know, I got to repost this Gallagher episode.
Marc:He was a monster, and I was, like, an asshole.
Marc:But, like, you know, now I'm sort of like, you know, he's all right.
Marc:He's dead.
Marc:But, you know, it was kind of sad, you know.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But...
Marc:I think also the fact that they're Canadian, which I didn't realize until it took me a minute, you know, because it's not totally revealed.
Marc:Like there's something about Canadians a little different than Americans.
Guest:Yeah, definitely.
Marc:Like there's a little more space.
Marc:You know, there's not the same kind of crazy.
Marc:People are a little more earnest.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And there's a ceiling to the energy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And so I think that helped you compartmentalize the thing.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:I think also being up there and working.
Marc:Oh, you did shot it up there?
Guest:Yeah, we shot it in Calgary where they grew up and shot at their high school.
Marc:I think I went to, I've been to that diner.
Guest:Oh, the Blackfoot?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because I did a comedy show up there that was at a room in a hotel.
Marc:And that's like the only place you can eat late in Calgary.
Marc:And we went there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I was like, oh my God.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I've been there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's been around forever.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But did you know about all this stuff in Canada?
Marc:Were you familiar with Canada?
Guest:I mean, I've never Calgary.
Guest:I've spent a lot of time in Vancouver and Toronto.
Marc:Isn't Calgary, that's the oil country, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:There's a lot of yahoos up there.
Marc:It's like Canada's Texas.
Guest:Yeah, that's what people there would say.
Marc:There was an oil boom, so you had a lot of these big trucks and rich cowboys running around.
Guest:There are a lot of big trucks there.
Guest:And the Stampede is there, the Calgary Stampede, which we were not there for it, but I guess it's a big deal.
Marc:So but also like, you know, dealing with the complex relationships of grownups is like a big part of this show.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like that in the relationships, you know, when that when the dad finally comes in, I'm like, wow, is this guy all right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And but but, you know, it's played very straight.
Marc:And, you know, in the first season, you don't really know the backstory.
Marc:But, you know, it's just one of those things like he shows up.
Marc:you know, he's not like one of those guys, but it's kind of matter of fact, right?
Marc:And how do you, like when you were conceiving this stuff, was that from the book or how did you decide just to sort of like have this, you don't know who he is.
Marc:And then you just, all of a sudden you're with this guy and you're like, that's the dad?
Guest:Yeah, Laura Kittrell, who's my co-writer, co-showrunner, and I had written the first three episodes, or the first two and the outline of the third, and then we got picked up based on those scripts.
Guest:And then once we got the pickup, Laura came in and we broke the rest of the season together, and we really liked the idea of...
Guest:of kind of breaking format a little bit and making you spend time with this man and then revealing who he is later.
Guest:It was something we got a lot of pushback on.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, but we just kept being like, no, this is how it's going to go.
Guest:And when we tried to think of other ways to do it, it just felt like...
Guest:too presentational or something like and and and that's something that you know in the in writing the show and executing the show is really using restraint and not spoon feeding things and letting things be and trusting that the audience is smart like is smart and they can you know pick up on what's happening and they don't need to be spoon fed everything every moment of the way
Marc:Right, not overexpository writing.
Marc:But I think what you accommodate that with the style of construction is that you don't have to do that if you're going to literally show the same five minutes of time from a totally different perspective leading up to the moment that everyone saw.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You like Rauschamond it in a way.
Marc:But were those actors, are a lot of them Canadian?
Guest:Our main cast is not Canadian.
Guest:Like the twins are not Canadian.
Guest:The parents aren't.
Marc:How many twins did you have to audition?
Guest:A lot.
Marc:A lot.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And the guy who plays the mother's boyfriend.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Kyle.
Guest:Kyle Bornheimer.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:These are really kind of weird.
Marc:It's a solid, interesting character because it's one of those characters where you wouldn't think would be, you know, you don't see that guy in depth much.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:And it's that, again, was something that was really appealing about expanding the world and being able to get to know these characters and, you know, look at, you know, what the what it's like to be a step parent and how you're kind of navigating that as you're you're raising kids together.
Guest:But what does it mean?
Guest:And what is your ownership?
Guest:And, you know, how do you connect?
Guest:It's really complicated.
Marc:Did you have step parents?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Bad?
Marc:Good?
Marc:Fine.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Fine.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:My brother's a step parent.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It all seems weird to me.
Marc:I have no kids.
Marc:Do you?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:How many do you got?
Guest:One.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But I'm a step parent.
Guest:So it is.
Guest:I think that's also like what was interesting to me about it is like how you navigate that and how, you know, because you are, you know.
Marc:Your wife had a kid going in.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She had a kid going into it.
Guest:And that.
Guest:yeah it's really interesting and like how the relationships you know you know you and the kid and you and your partner and then the three of you together it's also like you know because I am an only child and being back in like the triangle family dynamic like that's also really interesting and you know it's just I think there's a lot to explore there and something you know step parents you don't really see a lot of like the inner workings and the inner life of them it's always
Marc:Well, after watching the show, that kind of writing, I don't know why I couldn't.
Marc:I just sat and watched all of them.
Marc:And I'm a grown man with no kids.
Marc:I've avoided everything that that show represents.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, like, I'm kind of a blank slate on this stuff.
Marc:But I found it to be, you know, compelling to me because, like, I don't, you know, I have a brother who has many kids and he's a step-parent and adopted kids and everything else.
Marc:But I don't really consider the inner workings of that because it's not my life.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I think the way that was handled in this show, it was, you know, really compelling because it was honest.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There's honesty to it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You stripped it down somehow.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:And it's a very conscious decision not to fuck that kind of thing up or to make those characters one dimensional.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, when when the stepdad, you know, snaps and that, you know, it's sort of like, oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You're like, I'm there.
Marc:I'm like, he's got that in him.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And how but how he came back from that was some masterful writing and acting, I think.
Guest:Kyle, Kyle is really phenomenal.
Guest:And the way he played that scene in the moment when he realized that maybe they were like, not on a conscious level, but something inside of him made him realize that they were talking about something bigger, even though he didn't know what.
Marc:When he said that and he wrote, there was that like unspoken realization that like, wait, maybe she's like that.
Marc:He had never considered it before until that moment when he, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:He played that well.
Guest:He played it very well.
Marc:That's crazy.
Marc:How many takes of that take?
Guest:We did the scene a bunch of times, and then he did a run of that moment.
Guest:And we did it.
Guest:I don't remember.
Guest:We did it maybe like five or six times.
Marc:It's a sweet character, that guy.
Guest:Yeah, it's awesome.
Marc:You really kind of feel for him.
Marc:And the cliffhanger at the end, it's sort of like, oh, man.
Marc:Where's that going to go?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, you know.
Guest:I know, yeah.
Guest:I know where it's going to go.
Guest:It is a very...
Guest:You don't need to really over-dramatize this kind of thing because I think it is so relatable.
Marc:It feels real.
Marc:It feels authentic representation of some of this stuff.
Marc:I don't know how you did it because you don't have that much time, but you're able to do it.
Marc:What's your co-writer's experience?
Guest:Her experience of family.
Guest:She has parents and a brother.
Guest:She's from the South.
Guest:She's from Mississippi.
Guest:She's also gay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She's great.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:We have a lot of fun.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But it's interesting.
Marc:So you have the experience with step parents.
Marc:And I guess it's all in the book.
Marc:How much of it is to the T?
Yeah.
Guest:Their musical journey is sticking pretty close to the book so far.
Guest:And then the relationship with Sarah and her girlfriend, the one with the secret girlfriend, that's from the book.
Marc:And what did they think of it?
Guest:They were happy with it.
Guest:They, thank God, I was so nervous about it.
Guest:I was like, this could go great or it could ruin our friendship.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it's a big deal to, you know.
Marc:What were you concerned might ruin the friendship?
Guest:Just if they hated it or they were embarrassed or it just didn't turn out well.
Marc:But they liked it?
Guest:They were really happy with it, yeah.
Guest:and where where are you picked up how's it gonna work you don't know or we don't know we don't know about a second season yet but we're we've started a mini room for season two so we're already breaking episodes so is the plan to sort of get it in under a year if you get picked up yes they they will if if we get picked up we would be we would shoot next year like early next year and how do you how many seasons do you see is something like this
Guest:I don't want it to go beyond the book because I think the whole thing is how they were shaped, everything that shaped them as people and not the result of them then becoming pop stars.
Guest:Where does the book end?
Guest:A little bit after they graduate high school and sort of make the decision to try to make a go of it.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:And if you can get a good timeline going, maybe the twins won't be 27.
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:That's the hardest thing about television these days is that because there's so much time in between seasons where you're like, that kid's like 20 now.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:He's supposed to be 12.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How are we going to do that?
Guest:It's very unnerving watching kids grow up on television.
Marc:It is.
Marc:You don't know how that's going to go.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I feel like these two will stay.
Guest:I feel like Rayleigh and Susan will stay looking the way they look for a few years anyway.
Marc:No, definitely.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And so is this pretty much what you're doing?
Yeah.
Guest:This is what, yeah, this is, it's very time consuming right now.
Marc:And no big acting roles coming up?
Guest:No.
Marc:No.
Guest:I did something on Natasha's new show, her Peacock show, the Dan Johnson thing, Poker Face.
Guest:But then House Broken, the animated show that I created with Gabby Allen and Jen Crittenden.
Marc:That's happening?
Guest:Yeah, that is.
Guest:We have a Christmas special coming out.
Guest:It's two holiday episodes, and then we're coming back for a full season next summer.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, great job.
Marc:I enjoyed the show.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:It's nice talking to you.
Guest:Nice talking to you, too.
Marc:See, that worked out.
Marc:She was a little nervous at first, but we got it going.
Marc:And I should say again that high school is on Amazon Free V and Prime Video House Broken is on Fox and streaming on Hulu.
Marc:So look, here's what we're doing now.
Marc:We're going to hang out for a second.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right, people, coming up this week for full Marin subscribers, we're listening back to the time Mick Foley and Brendan McDonald had a wrestling match on the radio.
Marc:That's my producer, Brendan.
Marc:We solicited that he's going to fight one of the hosts.
Marc:You lied to me.
Marc:We didn't lie to you.
Marc:He's our guest host for today.
Marc:Mick Foley is our guest host for today.
Marc:He's going to be here for the whole hour, and that's the deal.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, all right.
Guest:So that's the deal.
Guest:So, you know, I'll do it because, you know, I probably won't win, but I'll do it.
Guest:What was that word?
Guest:Probably?
Guest:I probably won't win.
Guest:What do you want me to do?
Guest:If I back down, then you guys would make fun of me for that.
Guest:Yes, we would.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:We're still going to make fun of you.
Guest:You just wouldn't be injured.
Guest:I don't think you want to do this, man.
Guest:I really don't.
Guest:I think you ought to think about it.
Guest:I know you thought about it in the can, but that was then.
Guest:I think you need to think about it now.
Guest:Look at him.
Guest:Look at you.
Guest:You're telling me to do that, and then I'm going to think about it, and I'm going to leave, and then you guys have a fun time in here.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:They're going to do it.
Guest:It's okay.
Guest:Nobody knows your last thing.
Guest:Hold on a second.
Guest:You do understand there will be consequences for your actions or lack thereof, right?
Guest:You understand I've got a reputation.
Guest:I'm not going to come on Air America and make a joke out of this thing.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:You do understand you might look a little bit different when you leave.
Guest:And there are plenty of blunt objects around here that can help in that regard.
Guest:All right, fine.
Guest:I'll tell you what.
Guest:I'm going to teach you a little lesson here.
Guest:I'm not going to smack you around.
Guest:I'm just going to twist your body.
Marc:That was from our radio show Morning Sedition, which we've been spending some time talking about recently, but we're actually revisiting that wrestling clip as the start of another recurring series we're doing for full Marin subscribers.
Marc:I don't want to tip it just yet, but it's going to be a journey of sorts that will take place over the next...
Marc:weeks and months we've actually started quite a few recurring series in the bonus content at this point good morning geniuses is our continuing look back at morning sedition we've also got the monthly ask mark anything episodes also the archive deep dives where me and brendan go in depth on wtf episodes from way back we've got a good one of those coming up
Marc:And we'll also do more installments of We Love This, where we break down all the details about our favorite movies, albums, shows, whatever.
Marc:Plus, more producer cuts and live music mixtapes are on the way in the new year, too.
Marc:That's a lot of stuff over on the Full Marin for anyone who wants it, along with access to every episode of WTF ad-free.
Marc:To subscribe, click on the link in the episode guide or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF+.
Marc:on thursday film critic radio host professor and now documentary filmmaker elvis mitchell he has a new doc about black cinema in the 70s called is that black enough for you now on netflix we'll talk about it on thursday and now let's uh let's dig up some guitar work from the vault
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Thank you.