Episode 1383 - Wes Bentley

Episode 1383 • Released November 14, 2022 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening how's it going where you at we've gotten it you know there is a reprieve at hand but don't get too comfy

00:00:23Marc:Sorry, I don't want to be negative.

00:00:25Marc:I got to get this out because it's been bothering me.

00:00:29Marc:My HBO special is taping Thursday, December 8th at Town Hall in New York City.

00:00:34Marc:The first show was sold out, has been for months.

00:00:36Marc:A lot of people thought the show was sold out, but it's not because there's a second show which has some tickets.

00:00:41Marc:It's close to selling out, but there's tickets.

00:00:43Marc:So you can get tickets to the second show.

00:00:46Marc:It's at 930 and it's all part of the taping.

00:00:48Marc:That would be the second taping.

00:00:50Marc:You can go to WTF pod dot com slash tour for ticket info or go to townhall dot org.

00:00:57Marc:And this is another heads up.

00:00:58Marc:Please don't don't go to scalp.

00:01:00Marc:Go to the venue site.

00:01:02Marc:Don't just Google Mark Maron tickets.

00:01:05Marc:Go to the venue site.

00:01:07Marc:None of my tickets are $400.

00:01:10Marc:A lot of these shows still have tickets available.

00:01:13Marc:Go to the venue site or go to WTFPod.com slash tour.

00:01:18Marc:Okay, today on the show, I talked to Wes Bentley.

00:01:23Marc:Now, look, man, I remember this guy.

00:01:27Marc:I mean, a lot of you know him from Yellowstone or American Horror Story, but but you probably saw him for the first time in American Beauty, which was like a breakout performance that really had him pegged as the next big movie star.

00:01:38Marc:You remember with the floating bag, you know, the videotaping, the floating bag, whatever you remember him.

00:01:44Marc:It went very differently and it got pretty dark and we talk about it.

00:01:52Marc:So that's happening.

00:01:54Marc:Also, I reposted two episodes since I've talked to you.

00:01:59Marc:I think Gallagher's dead.

00:02:02Marc:And Bud Friedman died.

00:02:04Marc:Bud Friedman was the proprietor of the original improvisation on 44th Street between 8th and 9th in the early 70s.

00:02:15Marc:One of the first actual sort of comedy venues.

00:02:18Marc:But it really started more as a variety venue, almost a burlesque venue.

00:02:23Marc:But then he moved out here and left his wife that particular club, which I sort of played at in its last stages, the final stages.

00:02:31Marc:And then he came out here to set up the improv in the 70s here.

00:02:34Marc:It was him and Mitzi at the comedy store who were warring factions at the beginning of stand-up comedy clubs.

00:02:40Marc:And obviously the improv went on to become a big deal.

00:02:42Marc:He gave a lot of people their start.

00:02:45Marc:He gave a lot of people opportunities.

00:02:47Marc:I did some of my first two TV appearances at Evening at the Improv.

00:02:52Marc:I never got the feeling Bud liked me, but we had a good conversation after all was said and done.

00:02:57Marc:And he was the P.T.

00:03:01Marc:Barnum of stand-up comedy.

00:03:02Marc:The first real kind of intrusive empresario of the craft.

00:03:09Marc:Hosting his own shows at his own club on his own TV show with his monocle.

00:03:13Marc:He was a big egoed guy that really was ultimately...

00:03:19Marc:No matter how you think about him, a tremendous force, an important man in in the history of stand up and in giving us a stand up comedy as a wide ranging cultural impactor, impactor.

00:03:37Marc:So go listen to that if you want to hear that.

00:03:41Marc:What else?

00:03:41Marc:So, you know, it does seem we've been given a reprieve on one front.

00:03:46Marc:You know, we just got, you know, in these elections, we you know, everyone's excited in terms of, you know, Democrats and people who are not essentially right wingers.

00:03:57Marc:We because we just we just ended up losing a little bit.

00:04:00Marc:As opposed to a lot.

00:04:02Marc:And who knows?

00:04:03Marc:We might even I don't know what's going to happen with the House, but we are neck and neck with fascists.

00:04:07Marc:We are neck and neck with the fascists.

00:04:09Marc:We are not overwhelmed by them.

00:04:11Marc:Yay.

00:04:12Marc:Right.

00:04:13Marc:I mean, it just seems ultimately that enough regular people had had had enough of the evil ridiculousness of the clearly crazy bullshit.

00:04:22Marc:That's what I want to believe.

00:04:24Marc:They got nervous.

00:04:25Marc:They got nervous that the president.

00:04:27Marc:might be right, and that democracy was actually at stake.

00:04:32Marc:And I believe they were correct in taking that to heart.

00:04:35Marc:I believe that President Biden, on the two times that he talked, maybe you didn't see it, maybe you didn't think it was charismatic enough, but the message was clear.

00:04:44Marc:Democracy is at stake, and it is, and it was, and that's that.

00:04:48Marc:So we got a bit of reprieve because it seems that whatever we have here, whatever is left of this democracy, it worked despite the propaganda and despite the gerrymandering.

00:05:01Marc:It worked.

00:05:02Marc:And we got a reprieve.

00:05:04Marc:And here in California, it rained for a few days.

00:05:07Marc:So everything is just coming up roses this week.

00:05:09Marc:Literally.

00:05:10Marc:We've held the monsters at bay.

00:05:12Marc:And climate change doesn't matter for a few days because it rained in Southern California.

00:05:18Marc:And it never does.

00:05:18Marc:Even you know the song.

00:05:20Marc:And I fucking love when it rains.

00:05:21Marc:It's such a relief.

00:05:22Marc:Because this place is just a fucking... It looks like it's just going to go up in flames or just die from dehydration.

00:05:29Marc:And I imagine in the coming few weeks, it will all return to brittle and Tinder-like again.

00:05:37Marc:I'm sure that the right will regroup around some new talking points and the menace will pick up again.

00:05:44Marc:You know?

00:05:46Marc:culturally, I guess I'm approaching two fronts here.

00:05:52Marc:All is still garbage.

00:05:54Marc:I do enjoy the demise of Twitter and the hilarious sort of downfall of one of the primary narcissists who drive current culture.

00:06:03Marc:I mean, there's a few, but three of them took big hits in the last few weeks.

00:06:08Marc:musk trump and kanye are all spiraling like like bad and i gotta be honest uh it's it's kind of beautiful now kanye the other narcissist in this exploration has been spiraling for a while uh on and off but the anti-semitic version made me nervous okay uh you know when kyrie irving got on board i became more nervous as a jew i'm a jew

00:06:38Marc:And look, I've always known about the strain of anti-Semitic imagery and conspiracy within the black community.

00:06:44Marc:I've made fun of it.

00:06:46Marc:I've talked about it to black people.

00:06:49Marc:I mean, it's in some churches, for fuck's sake.

00:06:52Marc:Look, I'm just happy there was some pushback because of the nature and timing of what was going on in the world.

00:06:59Marc:I got kind of scared that there would be an alignment between the worst of white culture and all of black culture against Jews.

00:07:06Marc:I get it.

00:07:07Marc:You know, it seems to be one of the one things that brings a lot of people together is anti-Semitism.

00:07:14Marc:And

00:07:14Marc:Oddly, Chappelle dealt with all that from all sides, all the sides that he could in his monologue on SNL.

00:07:22Marc:And he did it so deftly that initially I thought he was giving Kanye and Kyrie a pass and saying basically that their only transgression was saying out loud publicly something that all blacks know to be true and know not to say publicly.

00:07:38Marc:And honestly, he was kind of saying that, but but he was able to balance and disarm the conspiracy theory and the perspective of the black community with the culture at large and ultimately the cost of transgression, which is a reality when we say shit sometimes, as Dave knows.

00:07:56Marc:And it was interesting because the whole riff was about the reality of lines you can't cross.

00:08:02Marc:And then he just crossed them again.

00:08:04Marc:But it was funny.

00:08:06Marc:I get it.

00:08:06Marc:I like comedy that goes to the edge for sure.

00:08:10Marc:And because of his skill and the way he contextualized it and the way it was organized and just his nature, it was funny.

00:08:19Marc:I got laughs.

00:08:20Marc:There was smart shit in there and funny shit in there.

00:08:22Marc:I'm still thinking about it.

00:08:23Marc:But, you know, honestly, I may think it's anti-Semitic tomorrow.

00:08:27Marc:We'll see.

00:08:27Marc:I'll see.

00:08:29Marc:I don't know.

00:08:31Marc:I might have to watch it again.

00:08:33Marc:OK, so look, Wes Bentley is here.

00:08:35Marc:Season five of Yellowstone just kicked off on the Paramount Network.

00:08:39Marc:New episodes on Sunday nights.

00:08:41Marc:And it was really kind of a treat to talk to this guy.

00:08:43Marc:We had a very pleasant chat.

00:08:45Marc:Hope you enjoy it.

00:08:47Marc:Pull that thing in.

00:09:01Marc:How far?

00:09:01Marc:Well, you can move up towards it.

00:09:03Marc:You know, it should just be by your mouth one way or the other.

00:09:05Marc:How's this right here?

00:09:05Guest:That's good.

00:09:06Marc:That's good.

00:09:07Marc:That's good.

00:09:07Marc:You're welcome.

00:09:07Marc:Yeah.

00:09:08Marc:Come on, have you done any voiceover work?

00:09:11Marc:No, not effectively.

00:09:13Marc:No?

00:09:13Marc:No, just ADR.

00:09:14Marc:Does that count?

00:09:15Marc:Oh, really?

00:09:16Marc:Not really.

00:09:16Marc:It doesn't count.

00:09:17Guest:What?

00:09:18Marc:No, I mean, ADR is ADR, but then you just have to talk normal.

00:09:22Guest:Yeah, no, I tried.

00:09:23Guest:I did try voice acting, but there's so many permanent voice actors that are so much better than me.

00:09:28Guest:I know.

00:09:28Guest:And they just give it all the time and they know what they're doing.

00:09:31Guest:And I was, you know, I'm thinking I'm a good actor, but when you try that, you know, and you fail, you realize, oh, I don't really know how to do everything.

00:09:39Marc:Right.

00:09:40Marc:It's true.

00:09:41Marc:Like, it's a weird specific thing where, I mean, I do it, but it's just varying degrees of me going, what?

00:09:49What?

00:09:49Marc:What?

00:09:50Marc:Or what?

00:09:51Marc:It's just like different gravelly and aggravated voices.

00:09:55Marc:Maybe I can do that.

00:09:56Guest:You can do that.

00:09:56Guest:I did try, I got close to one job and it was, I can't remember what the job was, but it was some creature.

00:10:03Guest:And I basically just ripped off animal from the Muppets and I got as close as I ever got to a job doing that.

00:10:09Marc:Well, it's one of those things I think like some people just go talk normal.

00:10:13Marc:I did the bad guys, right?

00:10:14Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:10:15Marc:And fucking Rockwell, he just talked like himself and I'm straining my voice.

00:10:19Marc:I'm the snake like, what's going on?

00:10:20Marc:You know, and he's just like, hey, man.

00:10:22Marc:And I'm like, fuck.

00:10:24Marc:Fuck you.

00:10:25Guest:What are you doing?

00:10:26Guest:Give her.

00:10:27Marc:Yeah.

00:10:27Marc:Put a little spin on it, will you?

00:10:29Guest:Sam.

00:10:29Marc:He's always lazy anyway.

00:10:33Marc:Well, he's always Sam.

00:10:34Marc:Have you worked with him?

00:10:35Guest:I did.

00:10:35Guest:I worked with him on Best of Enemies.

00:10:38Guest:What year?

00:10:39Guest:That was right before the, so 2017 or 18.

00:10:42Guest:I can't remember when it came out, but yeah, he was, you know.

00:10:44Guest:He's a good guy.

00:10:45Guest:Yeah, he's great.

00:10:46Guest:He has Southern accent in that, so a little not Sam.

00:10:48Marc:He can definitely do the stuff.

00:10:51Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:10:52Marc:I mean, accents are, how are you with the accents?

00:10:56Marc:I don't know.

00:10:56Guest:I think I'm good, and then no one says, hey, you were so good in that with your accent.

00:11:00Marc:Which one?

00:11:01Marc:Are you doing an accent with this one?

00:11:02Guest:No, no, it's just straight.

00:11:04Guest:Montana, it's not accent.

00:11:05Guest:When have you done an accent?

00:11:07Guest:I've done, I did English accent a few times.

00:11:10Marc:That's bold.

00:11:12Guest:It worked out?

00:11:12Guest:Well, I don't know.

00:11:13Guest:I never, I don't pay attention to reactions to me as much as I can because I learned either feed in, like it feeds my ego or it feeds my, my whatever, my weak thoughts.

00:11:24Guest:So I avoid any kind of reactions.

00:11:26Guest:You do?

00:11:26Guest:I do.

00:11:27Marc:That's interesting, because it feeds your weak thoughts.

00:11:30Guest:Yeah, well, I'm more afraid of it feeding my ego.

00:11:32Guest:Like, you know, I don't get so hurt when people don't like what I do, because I'm the one trying.

00:11:38Guest:Yeah, right.

00:11:39Guest:You're writing about it, but I'm trying to do it.

00:11:42Guest:So I don't really get, unless it's, you know, if it's an audience member, it takes them out of it.

00:11:45Guest:Sure.

00:11:46Marc:I hate that.

00:11:46Marc:But you get that speedball going of like a good post, good post, bad.

00:11:52Marc:Yeah.

00:11:52Marc:bad, good, you just kind of write it out, tweets or whatever.

00:11:56Guest:I try.

00:11:57Guest:You stay away from all of it.

00:11:58Guest:I stay away from it.

00:11:59Guest:It's also because I don't want it to influence my performance.

00:12:02Guest:Because this is a thing that's carrying on season by season.

00:12:05Guest:Oh, Yellowstone.

00:12:06Guest:Maybe on a film I can let it go.

00:12:07Guest:Yeah, on Yellowstone.

00:12:08Marc:So there are comment boards that you specifically don't deal with.

00:12:12Guest:No, I think, you know, when I was, so I, you know, when I was deep in my drugs and stuff, and I was like, I was looking for something.

00:12:19Guest:I was looking for the recovery, I guess.

00:12:20Guest:And so sometimes I go online looking for what people said about me and hopefully they were like, you'll be good again one day or whatever.

00:12:26Guest:And that was a bad idea.

00:12:29Guest:That's when I started to see all the reality.

00:12:31Guest:And that's when I did drugs for three more years.

00:12:34Guest:Yeah, I made it much better.

00:12:37Marc:But I remember early you, I think I saw that documentary you were in.

00:12:44Guest:Oh my God, no.

00:12:44Marc:Right?

00:12:45Marc:About the guys who were gonna make it.

00:12:47Marc:Yeah.

00:12:47Guest:Who was it, you and- Me and Chad Lindbergh.

00:12:50Guest:Yeah.

00:12:51Guest:And a guy named Greg Fawcett.

00:12:53Guest:Yeah.

00:12:53Guest:And Brad- Who shot it?

00:12:55Guest:Brad Rowe.

00:12:55Guest:Brad Rowe had a pretty successful career for a while.

00:12:58Guest:A guy named Tony Ziera, he lived in the house and he just had his cameras.

00:13:02Guest:He was a director and he would just shoot us doing stuff.

00:13:04Guest:Right, right.

00:13:05Guest:You know, messing around mostly.

00:13:07Guest:And then eventually it became, but when I started to, when American Beauty hit, that's when he decided to turn it into- Like the real thing.

00:13:14Guest:The real thing, yeah.

00:13:15Guest:But it stopped, you know, it didn't show you losing it, did it?

00:13:19Guest:I don't, you know, to be honest, I didn't watch the new, because he recut it.

00:13:22Guest:Of course he did.

00:13:23Guest:I watched the one we all tried to sell at Toronto.

00:13:26Guest:Actually, it was the night before 9-11.

00:13:27Guest:We tried to sell it and then- Yeah.

00:13:29Guest:And then anyways, and then he went back and he recut it without telling any of us and he disappeared and-

00:13:35Marc:When did you meet Lee Daniels?

00:13:37Guest:I met Lee in New York when I had auditioned for something and got close to it.

00:13:41Guest:And he just brought me in to see if he could manage me.

00:13:45Guest:Yeah.

00:13:46Guest:And he did?

00:13:47Guest:Yeah, and he did.

00:13:48Guest:Yeah.

00:13:48Guest:And it was wild.

00:13:49Guest:I mean, the thing about Lee being your manager is he had a creative mind.

00:13:54Guest:Right.

00:13:54Guest:So he really wanted to do really good stuff.

00:13:56Guest:And so he was invested in that.

00:13:57Guest:I loved that.

00:13:58Guest:Yeah.

00:13:58Guest:I was all about Lee.

00:14:00Guest:Yeah.

00:14:00Guest:And we had a good team thing going.

00:14:01Guest:The only thing that derailed that was two things.

00:14:04Guest:He wanted to become a director, and I was starting to go off the rails for the drugs.

00:14:07Guest:And you wanted to become a drug addict.

00:14:08Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:14:09Guest:I want to explore that avenue of L.A., you know?

00:14:12Marc:Different dreams.

00:14:13Marc:Not enough people do that.

00:14:15Marc:You know, it's weird.

00:14:16Marc:I think a lot of people, I think we don't know about it.

00:14:21Marc:It's a weird time in the sense that, like, there was a time where

00:14:24Marc:Where drugs weren't really spoken about as a problem.

00:14:27Marc:It was just like when you heard about it, it was like, no, he had to clean up for a little while.

00:14:31Marc:Now he's back.

00:14:33Marc:But now it's just like a cultural epidemic.

00:14:35Marc:It's like he had a cold or something.

00:14:38Marc:He had to get over the cold and he'll be fine.

00:14:40Marc:But when people go the way you did, then it's just sort of like, no, that's not good.

00:14:45Marc:We're not going to.

00:14:46Guest:Because he might not make it.

00:14:47Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:14:48Marc:Because it was before fentanyl.

00:14:49Marc:It was before.

00:14:50Marc:But anytime anyone gets hooked on dope, you're sort of like, well, that's not casual.

00:14:56Marc:I mean, I thought it was for a minute, but no, it got me.

00:15:00Marc:Right?

00:15:01Marc:Mm-hmm.

00:15:01Marc:But going back, though, because I don't know the whole story.

00:15:05Marc:I talked to Thora a few years ago.

00:15:08Marc:That was intense.

00:15:09Marc:Yeah, I bet.

00:15:10Marc:Yeah.

00:15:10Marc:She's intense.

00:15:11Marc:Yeah.

00:15:11Guest:yeah yeah both of your lives kind of uh kind of went off the rails it seems yeah they did it was intense i mean it was it was a lot and i remember talking to her as you know for that movie when it came out we did a american beauty american beauty yeah we did a u.s press tour then so we bounced around all these cities and colleges showing it trying to get people excited about it and i watched it every single time and

00:15:34Guest:and it was like I was really just, my eyes were wide open.

00:15:38Guest:I wanted to see and experience all this.

00:15:40Guest:She felt a little bit like it was making her nervous.

00:15:42Marc:She was ahead of me.

00:15:44Guest:She knew what was coming.

00:15:45Marc:And then it was like- And she had had some success before though.

00:15:47Marc:She was a child actress.

00:15:49Guest:Yeah, that's right.

00:15:51Guest:But I would see her and in her eyes, I would get a little worried that what was coming wasn't gonna be that great.

00:15:55Marc:So where did you grow up?

00:15:58Marc:I grew up in Arkansas.

00:16:00Marc:See, I just met someone from Arkansas on the road.

00:16:02Marc:I just did a show in,

00:16:04Marc:I think it was in Dallas, and a few women had driven from Arkansas, and I realized, like, I've never been there.

00:16:10Marc:It just feels like I don't even sense there's a lot of people there.

00:16:14Marc:Are there?

00:16:15Guest:I feel like it should be the state motto instead of the natural state.

00:16:17Guest:It should be, you know, I don't think I've ever been there.

00:16:19Yeah.

00:16:19Guest:No one ever comes here.

00:16:22Guest:You've never seen it.

00:16:24Guest:Now what city?

00:16:25Guest:Well, I was born in a town called Jonesboro, which is an hour from Memphis.

00:16:29Guest:So the Mississippi Delta.

00:16:30Guest:And then my parents are both Methodist preachers and a Methodist church.

00:16:34Guest:They move you around every like four years.

00:16:36Marc:Well, that's like, I think that's one of the less aggressive churches.

00:16:39Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:16:40Guest:Well, it was.

00:16:40Guest:Then now they're having the battle we're all having, right?

00:16:43Guest:It's political now.

00:16:44Guest:So they've had a split within that church.

00:16:46Guest:But for my upbringing, it was a moderate church and my parents are liberals.

00:16:50Guest:So I had a little cocoon there.

00:16:52Guest:I had a little place to be because the state itself was difficult for me.

00:16:56Guest:But they're both...

00:16:58Guest:The state itself?

00:16:59Guest:The people in the state.

00:17:00Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:17:00Guest:Well, I mean, but you knew that early on?

00:17:03Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:17:05Guest:Yeah, knew it right away.

00:17:06Guest:Well, see, part of it is that in the Delta, it's majority black.

00:17:11Guest:Like, my school was a majority black.

00:17:12Guest:Most of my friends were black.

00:17:13Guest:My teachers were black.

00:17:15Guest:And then when you move out of there to the mountains,

00:17:17Guest:you realize, oh, it's not like that for the rest of the state, and it's pretty nasty, and they're pretty racist, and I knew it then, you know, because I get- How old were you when you realized that?

00:17:26Guest:That was probably like eight, nine.

00:17:29Guest:Yeah.

00:17:30Marc:So first let's talk about Method, they're both preachers, did they both have congregations?

00:17:35Guest:Yeah, my dad started, and then my mom got her, sorry, the words escaping me, theology degree.

00:17:41Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:17:43Guest:So she got that after him, and then she started having her own churches, and they would have a couple churches in the area.

00:17:48Guest:I mean, they were usually 30 minutes away, because it's rural Arkansas.

00:17:51Marc:Because I noticed that when I was in Kentucky at some point, that there was literally churches every few miles.

00:17:56Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:17:56Marc:Every mile or so.

00:17:57Marc:Yeah, it's like 7-Eleven.

00:17:58Marc:Yeah, but how does that work?

00:17:59Marc:Is it just based on the personality of the preacher?

00:18:02Marc:Yeah.

00:18:02Guest:Yeah, well, some of the churches are, you know, they hire their preachers themselves, but the Methodist church is kind of like the Catholic church or a corporation where they- A corporation, yeah.

00:18:10Guest:Yeah, like a business, yeah, where the bishops will move you around and tell you where to go.

00:18:14Marc:So there's an American Methodist church organization.

00:18:19Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, the United Methodist Church, but now it's split, it's gonna split into something else with the conservatives going- Really?

00:18:26Guest:That way, yeah.

00:18:27Guest:I don't know, global something or whatever.

00:18:29Guest:But wasn't Methodist, what made it different?

00:18:32Guest:from good question i i didn't go to many other i mean i would go visit other churches they would do talking tongues at some churches that we didn't do that they would they would like do music and modern music and dance for like hours we didn't do that it was just like it was like the method you would walk in you'd sit down you'd listen you'd sing some nice songs maybe stand up pray you listen to the preacher and you're out of there like the method acting yeah i guess so yeah like the method christianity oh that's it so it wasn't high pressure

00:18:58Marc:No, I didn't feel high pressure.

00:19:00Marc:There's no confessions, no booths, no... No guilt.

00:19:03Guest:No sweat, no guilt.

00:19:04Guest:No strange guilt.

00:19:05Marc:Really?

00:19:06Guest:Yeah, at least my parents didn't preach that way.

00:19:08Marc:So was it about really just the teachings of Christ?

00:19:12Guest:You know, that's... And service?

00:19:13Guest:Yeah, that's what I got out of it.

00:19:14Guest:You know, what I try to tell people who...

00:19:17Guest:who didn't have a church upbringing or they have skepticism for all Christians.

00:19:21Guest:I'd say, you know, some people just believe in the love Jesus was trying to teach, love each other.

00:19:27Guest:They're not even that concerned about him being the son of God or anything.

00:19:29Guest:It's just, there was a different message, especially for the time.

00:19:32Guest:He just came in to say,

00:19:34Guest:fuck your synagogues, fuck your rules, stop killing animals, stop hating each other, and forget the money, and just love each other.

00:19:41Guest:So anyways, not to go down this too far, that's what I took from it, from my parents, from that church, and I've always held with me a little bit, although I don't go to church now.

00:19:49Guest:But stuck with you?

00:19:50Guest:Definitely.

00:19:51Guest:So you feel the presence of God.

00:19:54Guest:I don't know.

00:19:55Guest:I mean, I do feel the presence of God.

00:19:57Guest:Not in the sense of a church tells me, but in my own personal connection with God.

00:20:02Guest:And as far as Jesus is concerned, even if he's not the son of God, he still had to me an amazing message.

00:20:09Guest:And he's not the one who was writing all the things after, right?

00:20:12Guest:I mean, they're the ones saying he said this or that.

00:20:14Guest:Those gossip apostles.

00:20:17Guest:God, what were they wanting?

00:20:18Guest:Their own thing?

00:20:20Exactly.

00:20:20Guest:Yeah, but he never said make a church after me either.

00:20:23Guest:These are all the things people wouldn't do.

00:20:25Marc:Yeah, it became just a great sort of basis for a racket.

00:20:32Marc:Yeah, you're right, it's a RICO.

00:20:33Marc:Take this book and go make some money.

00:20:38Marc:You can do it.

00:20:39Marc:Empower.

00:20:39Marc:Yeah, but do you have siblings?

00:20:41Guest:I have three brothers.

00:20:43Guest:Really?

00:20:43Guest:Yeah.

00:20:43Guest:Older?

00:20:44Guest:Two older, one younger.

00:20:45Guest:I'm three out of four.

00:20:47Guest:Wow.

00:20:47Guest:Yeah.

00:20:48Guest:So how'd they turn out?

00:20:50Guest:I mean, I think great.

00:20:51Guest:Yeah, they're doing great.

00:20:53Guest:My oldest brother is in Kansas City, has a wonderful family up there, and the one after him, he works for corporate Walmart, which is a pretty big trip from him because he was the most liberal anti-corporation of the four of us.

00:21:07Guest:A real radical.

00:21:08Guest:Now he's working there, but he does it with the ethics, so it has some balance.

00:21:13Guest:One guy with ethics at Walmart.

00:21:16Marc:You just need one, right?

00:21:17Marc:Sure, as long as he feels good.

00:21:18Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:21:20Marc:That's true.

00:21:20Marc:And the company would go like, we got one.

00:21:22Guest:Got this guy.

00:21:23Guest:He said you're all fine.

00:21:24Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:21:25Guest:And then the other ones?

00:21:26Guest:And my youngest brother, he moved out here in 2002.

00:21:28Guest:At first he was like my stand-in, then I was going to be my assistant, and then for reasons that we might even get into later, but that didn't work out, and he started doing his own thing, and now he works at Netflix.

00:21:41Guest:Wow.

00:21:41Guest:Oh, really?

00:21:41Guest:And a pretty big job there at Netflix.

00:21:44Guest:So, you know, he's doing great.

00:21:45Guest:He has a family, too.

00:21:46Guest:They're all doing great.

00:21:46Guest:Yeah.

00:21:47Guest:Yeah.

00:21:47Marc:None of the other ones got fucked up.

00:21:50Guest:Oh, no.

00:21:50Guest:Not like me.

00:21:52Guest:Yeah.

00:21:52Guest:No, we had a great upbringing.

00:21:53Guest:My parents are incredible.

00:21:55Guest:You know, they did everything they could for us.

00:21:58Guest:Can't track it.

00:21:59Guest:No, there's no thing.

00:22:00Guest:You know, like some of us don't have a thing.

00:22:02Guest:I wanted to go be stupid, and it got real stupid real quick.

00:22:06Marc:But like no grandpa with alcoholism, none of that.

00:22:09Guest:Oh yeah, I had, yeah, my mom's dad, but he passed away before I knew him really.

00:22:15Guest:He was an alcoholic.

00:22:16Guest:Yeah.

00:22:16Guest:Yeah, and then my, yeah, we have some other family members.

00:22:19Guest:You know, everyone does.

00:22:20Guest:Sure.

00:22:21Guest:That's why I wonder if it, you know, when they say it's hereditary and all that stuff, I'm like, well, everyone has someone.

00:22:25Guest:Sure.

00:22:26Guest:So do we all have it?

00:22:27Marc:Well, I don't know, I guess, I wonder how close it has to be.

00:22:31Marc:Yeah, right.

00:22:31Marc:You know, that'll tip you over.

00:22:33Marc:I mean, it doesn't mean you all have it.

00:22:34Marc:It means that you all could be activated.

00:22:37Marc:Yeah, that's my opinion.

00:22:38Marc:You got activated.

00:22:40Marc:I sure did.

00:22:41Guest:I would think I was like trying to activate everyone around me at the same time.

00:22:44Marc:Of course.

00:22:45Marc:That misery loves company and you want to share the good times.

00:22:49Marc:So how do you get from Arkansas to acting?

00:22:54Marc:Well, yeah, you know.

00:22:56Marc:Wait, which city in Arkansas did you grow up in for the most part?

00:22:58Guest:Well, you know, I would count, so Mountain Home was that real kind of, I don't want to call it a racist city.

00:23:04Guest:Not everyone there was like, but that's when I, you know, that switch happened.

00:23:07Guest:Yeah.

00:23:08Guest:And then that's my junior high years.

00:23:10Guest:Then my high school years all happened around Little Rock in a town called Sherwood, which is basically part of Little Rock.

00:23:15Marc:Is that a big city?

00:23:16Marc:Like, I can't picture it.

00:23:17Marc:I feel like I've driven through it.

00:23:18Marc:But every city that you hear of that isn't like a city city that we know, they're just like, there's nothing there, man.

00:23:25Guest:Yeah, I mean, Little Rock actually does have some cool things.

00:23:28Guest:It's got the Clinton Library, which is really interesting.

00:23:30Guest:Yeah, and then the riverfront area is kind of cool.

00:23:34Guest:But, you know, other than that, I wouldn't say.

00:23:36Guest:It's like 100, I think now it's probably 250,000 people.

00:23:38Guest:It's small, yeah, yeah.

00:23:39Marc:Like, I was just in Oklahoma City, and that's pretty small.

00:23:42Guest:Yeah, and that's bigger than Little Rock.

00:23:43Marc:It is, yeah.

00:23:44Guest:Yeah.

00:23:45Marc:So you're there.

00:23:46Guest:Are you acting in high school or what?

00:23:49Guest:Yeah, the way I got into all that was kind of church and my brothers and my dad.

00:23:53Guest:Yeah, church.

00:23:54Guest:I know.

00:23:54Guest:Well, because that's really all you got in Arkansas is your church and your school for your outlet, right?

00:23:59Guest:Oh, so they did plays?

00:24:00Guest:Yeah, they would do.

00:24:01Guest:My mom would.

00:24:02Guest:And she got in trouble for it later, ran into trouble with the church because she put on a play that I was in on Christmas Day.

00:24:09Guest:In the church.

00:24:09Guest:And two people hated it and were mad at her for doing it.

00:24:12Guest:Instead of sacrilegious and they worked to get her removed, which didn't work out, but she just left anyway because she felt so bothered by it.

00:24:20Guest:She got reprimanded?

00:24:22Guest:Basically, yeah.

00:24:23Marc:What was the button pushing element of this radical play about Christmas?

00:24:28Guest:It was just...

00:24:29Guest:I mean, it's just that we did it because it was really about some people opening presents in their attic.

00:24:33Guest:Yeah, it wasn't anything.

00:24:36Guest:It was good Christian stories out of the Bible.

00:24:38Guest:It's just a way to tell them.

00:24:40Guest:Oh, so you guys, your mom created it?

00:24:43Guest:Well, no, it was written.

00:24:43Marc:I can't remember the name of it.

00:24:44Guest:It was so long ago.

00:24:45Marc:Sorry, apologies.

00:24:46Guest:And they got offended.

00:24:46Guest:And these two people got offended.

00:24:48Guest:And they were like family friends, too.

00:24:50Guest:Oh, really?

00:24:51Marc:Yeah, it was weird.

00:24:51Guest:So maybe there was other motives.

00:24:54Guest:Yeah, maybe, I guess.

00:24:55Guest:It could be she was one of the first women preachers at that time.

00:24:58Guest:It could be she was a woman.

00:25:00Guest:I don't know.

00:25:00Guest:Nowadays, I can look at it that way.

00:25:02Guest:Then I wouldn't have thought of that.

00:25:03Marc:Is that when you realize the power of theater?

00:25:06Marc:Yeah.

00:25:07Marc:Get my own mom fired, yeah.

00:25:10Marc:This is something beautiful.

00:25:12Marc:Like I can move people.

00:25:15Marc:So you played a present opener?

00:25:17Guest:Yeah, basically.

00:25:18Guest:But you know what really got me into it was, and you're gonna love this, because it was the Monty Python.

00:25:23Guest:My dad watched Monty Python at dinner and we would watch that while we ate.

00:25:27Guest:And we all loved it, like the skit show before the movies.

00:25:30Guest:And so we would reenact them.

00:25:33Guest:And my brothers and I would do it constantly.

00:25:35Guest:I hope everyone did that.

00:25:36Guest:Monty Python was so fun.

00:25:37Guest:Yeah, you could do those, yeah.

00:25:39Guest:And everyone knew them.

00:25:40Guest:It wasn't like now where I don't get the TikTok jokes.

00:25:42Marc:Right, yeah.

00:25:43Marc:Oh, no.

00:25:43Marc:There's no way to keep up with that shit.

00:25:45Guest:I don't have any idea.

00:25:46Guest:So we did that.

00:25:47Guest:And so improv comedy was kind of what we were drawn to just for fun and taste.

00:25:52Marc:Your brothers too?

00:25:53Marc:Yeah, all of us.

00:25:53Guest:So you do the things.

00:25:54Guest:Yeah, so we'd get up in front of people and do skits and improv stuff.

00:25:58Guest:And that led to, in my high school, they didn't do plays.

00:26:01Guest:because they didn't have the money.

00:26:02Guest:We did children's play, but we didn't do an actual play.

00:26:05Guest:We would do these competitions.

00:26:07Guest:So you'd go around doing like a monologue or a duet, they'd call it for two people.

00:26:11Guest:And so one of them was improv, and that was one of the ones I would win in.

00:26:14Guest:We'd win all the time, me and my buddies.

00:26:17Guest:Were you going for funny usually?

00:26:18Guest:Always funny, always funny.

00:26:20Guest:In fact, later when I went to Juilliard, that got me in trouble because I thought that's what improv was.

00:26:25Guest:Right, get some laughs.

00:26:27Marc:Make them laugh, yeah.

00:26:28Marc:So, all right, so you're doing that, and you finish high school in Arkansas.

00:26:34Marc:Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

00:26:34Marc:And you're not, what, are you drinking or anything?

00:26:37Guest:No, no, I didn't do anything, and I was very much against it, and I very much judged my friends if they smoked weed or drank anything, or even talked about it.

00:26:45Guest:Oh, boy, there were a lot of people going like, well, I guess Weston's such a...

00:26:50Guest:You remember that guy in high school?

00:26:52Guest:Look at him now.

00:26:53Guest:Remember all the things he said to us?

00:26:55Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:26:56Guest:He did heroin.

00:26:56Guest:Yeah.

00:26:57Guest:Got all fucked up.

00:26:59Guest:Not so high and mighty anymore.

00:27:01Guest:Well, he's high.

00:27:02Guest:Yeah, that's for sure.

00:27:03Guest:He's certainly not mighty.

00:27:06Guest:So, yeah, I did that, and it kind of became a thing at my school, even.

00:27:09Guest:They loved me and my buddy who did the improv.

00:27:11Guest:We would do skits for them, too, and they loved it.

00:27:13Guest:Like at lunch and shit?

00:27:14Guest:No, like on stage.

00:27:15Guest:They would put up functions or whatever, or someone would come speak.

00:27:18Marc:You were doing Monty Python stuff?

00:27:20Marc:for your writing stuff?

00:27:20Marc:No, we do our own things.

00:27:21Marc:Oh really?

00:27:21Guest:Yeah, we do our own things.

00:27:23Guest:Writing comedy?

00:27:23Guest:Yeah, I mean.

00:27:25Guest:You're in a comedy team in high school.

00:27:26Guest:Sure, yeah, yeah, I'll take that.

00:27:28Guest:What happened to the other guy?

00:27:29Guest:No one will tell you otherwise now, I guess.

00:27:30Guest:Yeah.

00:27:32Guest:He's now in, he's in Pennsylvania.

00:27:36Guest:He teaches gymnastics to kids, and he does security as well.

00:27:41Guest:Out of show business.

00:27:43Guest:Out of show business.

00:27:44Guest:Yeah, he went to the Air Force.

00:27:45Guest:We split at high school.

00:27:48Guest:Oh, so you remember when he decided to do that?

00:27:50Guest:Yeah, well, both of us, yeah.

00:27:51Guest:You went to the Air Force?

00:27:53Guest:No, no, I was going to go to Juilliard, and he went there kind of the same time.

00:27:58Marc:How the fuck do you, from Arkansas, you're doing sketches, skits in high school.

00:28:03Marc:How do you get into the premiere acting?

00:28:06Marc:college in the country.

00:28:07Guest:Well, my mom.

00:28:08Guest:So I was kind of looking at, I play soccer and I was kind of looking at soccer schools or that had soccer and a decent drama program.

00:28:15Guest:But like I was looking at Western Kentucky or like St.

00:28:18Guest:Louis University, something like that.

00:28:20Guest:So she was like, no, I think you should try Juilliard.

00:28:23Guest:And I said, what's that?

00:28:25Guest:And she said, it's an acting school in New York.

00:28:27Guest:I said, okay, sounds cool.

00:28:29Guest:They have an audition in Chicago.

00:28:30Guest:You want to go?

00:28:31Guest:I said, okay, sure, I'll go.

00:28:33Guest:You have to learn a Shakespearean monologue.

00:28:35Guest:A what?

00:28:36Guest:Really?

00:28:37Guest:Yeah, well, I knew it from class, but I didn't quite know what she meant.

00:28:41Guest:So I chose Macbeth, which apparently you're not supposed to do.

00:28:46Guest:And I think that might have caught their attention alone.

00:28:49Guest:But it was also, I delivered at such a slow pace that their first note to me was, that was great.

00:28:55Guest:But if everyone did Shakespeare like you did, it would take six hours to finish the play.

00:28:59Guest:Right.

00:29:00Guest:But I don't know, I made a mark.

00:29:02Guest:We went up there and I got in.

00:29:04Guest:I don't know what they were thinking.

00:29:06Marc:Wait, so you did Macbeth and what other one?

00:29:08Guest:Oh yeah, so I had to do a contemporary that I had used in the, I can't remember it now, From Life and Death.

00:29:13Guest:I can't remember the writer.

00:29:14Guest:It's From Life and Death.

00:29:16Guest:From Life and Death, yeah.

00:29:17Guest:If I'm getting that wrong, I apologize.

00:29:18Guest:But that was my contemporary and I was really good at that one.

00:29:22Guest:I really had that locked down from all the competition.

00:29:23Guest:Yeah, and you just found it in a book.

00:29:25Guest:Yeah, the monologue book.

00:29:26Guest:Yeah, the monologue book said that.

00:29:28Marc:So you just go from Arkansas to Chicago with your mom, with Macbeth, and you've never really taken in Shakespeare before?

00:29:34Marc:No.

00:29:35Marc:But did you feel like your pace was just so you wouldn't fuck it up?

00:29:39Guest:Well, I was dramatic pauses, right?

00:29:40Guest:I mean, I'm from the film generation.

00:29:42Guest:I didn't see stage, so I was just like, I was doing all these- So you already knew that?

00:29:45Guest:Yeah.

00:29:46Guest:You were like, I know I gotta- I know how to do that.

00:29:48Guest:Yeah, I know how to- Space it out.

00:29:49Guest:Yeah, I really did.

00:29:50Guest:breathe through it you know let them know i'm feeling it yeah i really want them to know i'm feeling where'd you learn that shit where'd you go just like watching other actors i guess or on you know tv tv is a little different right so you're already kind of like just doing the flourishes and yeah oh yeah letting shit sit i love movies i mean movies were my really my draw attacking so yeah you know that was my influence to get into that yeah yeah yeah wow and they and you got in

00:30:16Guest:It's crazy.

00:30:17Guest:I got in.

00:30:18Guest:It's crazy.

00:30:18Guest:It was crazy getting that phone call because I didn't expect it.

00:30:22Guest:I knew I had a good audition, but there were many kids.

00:30:24Guest:Yeah.

00:30:25Guest:And what was it?

00:30:27Guest:So you moved to New York?

00:30:28Guest:I did.

00:30:29Guest:I moved to New York at 17 years old.

00:30:31Guest:17 because I was young for my class.

00:30:33Guest:I turned 18 like the first month.

00:30:35Marc:Where the fuck did you?

00:30:36Marc:Did you live on campus?

00:30:37Marc:I did.

00:30:37Marc:Did they have that?

00:30:38Guest:Yeah, they have dorms above the, you know, like on 66th Street by the Lincoln Center and all that.

00:30:43Guest:And so I stayed up in the dorms, yeah.

00:30:46Guest:And I went there, and I didn't know I have a clue.

00:30:48Guest:And I had a Southern accent, and they hate.

00:30:50Guest:You got rid of that?

00:30:51Guest:At the time, they hated it.

00:30:52Guest:You had it?

00:30:53Guest:I had it, and I could hear it, and I was good at, I have a good ear, so I could avoid it, but not as far as they're concerned.

00:30:59Guest:The teachers.

00:31:00Guest:They had me do extra time.

00:31:01Guest:Yeah, the voice and speech teachers.

00:31:02Guest:At the time, that was the intense thing there.

00:31:04Guest:It's different now.

00:31:05Marc:Well, I've talked to people that have been there.

00:31:06Marc:It's very competitive, and they kick people out.

00:31:08Marc:It's kind of brutal, and there's definitely a system.

00:31:12Marc:Yeah.

00:31:12Marc:That seems antithetical to creating personalities.

00:31:17Guest:And that was my, you nailed it.

00:31:19Guest:That was my problem.

00:31:19Guest:I don't know if other people have said this, but when I was there in my first year, I went to the fourth year showcase to see, because they show, you know, to the agents will come and see these fourth year students.

00:31:28Marc:So you guys just went as, you know, because you were new at school.

00:31:31Guest:Yeah, they were like, come check it out.

00:31:32Guest:What you were working towards.

00:31:33Guest:Right, and all I saw was, or heard really, was the same voice and dialect out of all the men, women, didn't matter their ages and what role they were playing, they all sounded exactly the same.

00:31:45Guest:And they would tell you that's what we're gonna do.

00:31:47Guest:I mean, it takes a few years after that to shake out of it and make it your own.

00:31:51Guest:In my head, I was like, I don't think I wanna do that.

00:31:55Guest:I was real into, like you said, having a personality and making it my own.

00:31:59Marc:So how was that first year for you?

00:32:02Guest:Rough.

00:32:03Guest:Rough in a lot of ways, also amazing.

00:32:05Guest:I mean, it was eye-opening.

00:32:06Guest:I didn't know anything about theater history.

00:32:08Guest:I didn't really know how to dig into the depths of me or of the character.

00:32:13Guest:I mean, I did a little.

00:32:15Guest:I had tricks, as they say.

00:32:16Guest:I had things I could do to make you think I was doing that.

00:32:19Guest:Isn't that half of it?

00:32:21Guest:Yeah, I mean, now it's hard for me to say that now doing this show for so long because it's become, we can talk about that later, but it's almost consuming.

00:32:29Guest:What, Yellowstone?

00:32:30Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:32:32Guest:But at the time, I didn't even know how to dig past my own stuff.

00:32:36Marc:Right.

00:32:36Marc:Well, I mean, it's always the sort of kind of question around acting is that, you know, everyone's got a different approach to it, but basically you're pretending to be somebody else.

00:32:46Marc:Yeah, that's right.

00:32:47Marc:And I think to some people it just comes easy.

00:32:49Marc:Who the fuck knows?

00:32:50Marc:You know, like, it really depends on what you expect out of it for yourself.

00:32:55Marc:I firmly believe that.

00:32:55Marc:Right.

00:32:56Marc:But if you've got the knack and you could pull it off and everyone's like, wow, you were really in it, and you know, like, nah, it wasn't even close.

00:33:04Marc:What was his name again?

00:33:05Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:33:05Marc:I mean, so what?

00:33:06Marc:You know what I mean?

00:33:07Marc:You don't owe it to anybody to explain that.

00:33:10Marc:If it has the effect, it has the effect.

00:33:12Guest:I totally agree.

00:33:12Guest:Yeah, when people ask me, does your work style conflict with someone else's work styles?

00:33:16Guest:No, we're all trying our best to get out what we need to do to play this character.

00:33:21Guest:So whatever they're doing, that's great.

00:33:22Marc:Yeah, when they go action, you're just sort of like, you're in it.

00:33:25Marc:And then like three minutes later, it's over.

00:33:27Marc:And then you do it from another angle.

00:33:30Marc:And then a third angle.

00:33:31Marc:40 times, yeah.

00:33:33Marc:And they're all different.

00:33:34Marc:I don't think people, especially with movie and TV acting, really understand just the plotting pace of it.

00:33:41Marc:There's no continuity to it.

00:33:43Marc:I mean, just to hold on.

00:33:44Marc:It's amazing they can pull shit together.

00:33:46Guest:I often think more actors who win awards or whatever should be thanking the editor more often because your performance really is the editor's decision to how they put together what you did.

00:33:58Marc:It's crazy.

00:33:58Guest:Yeah.

00:33:59Marc:The way it all works.

00:34:00Marc:And a lot of times when you're doing something, you're like, how's this going to come together?

00:34:04Marc:There's no way they're going to make a movie out of this.

00:34:07Marc:I do that all the time.

00:34:08Guest:I have no clue.

00:34:10Guest:I've learned that I'm really bad at that.

00:34:13Marc:When I read a script, I don't understand what that was.

00:34:15Marc:All I can see is the words that I'm supposed to say, but where I'm supposed to be, what's happening.

00:34:20Marc:Someone has to tell me that.

00:34:22Marc:This one we're shooting today, does this happen before or after that thing we did before?

00:34:27Marc:After?

00:34:28Marc:Okay, good.

00:34:30So I'm tired.

00:34:32Guest:And that's the method.

00:34:33Marc:There you go.

00:34:35Marc:All right.

00:34:35Marc:So I just walked out of that place and I'm a little aggravated.

00:34:39Marc:Okay.

00:34:41Guest:But you know, you're not, it really is just emotions, right?

00:34:44Guest:I mean, really what we're doing, we're just portraying whatever emotion they're in in that moment.

00:34:48Guest:Anything deeper than that's like, you know.

00:34:49Marc:It's projected onto it or you can, you know, you can certainly fill it up a backstory if you want.

00:34:54Marc:But that sort of seemed to be what you were good at from the beginning.

00:34:57Marc:Yes.

00:34:57Marc:Was having kind of like a, you know, kind of wide open with that shit.

00:35:01Guest:I was, yeah.

00:35:02Guest:I think I was more ready to learn and do all that than I think the other kids in my class at Julia, because they had all gone to acting classes and stuff, so they had a preconceived idea of what they wanted to do.

00:35:11Guest:So what were they trying to do to you in that first year?

00:35:13Guest:Well, they wanted to really get my speech down.

00:35:16Guest:I have a tongue tie.

00:35:17Guest:Yeah, mine's all fucked up.

00:35:19Guest:Yeah, so it's like hooked, so it's hard for me to hit the T's and stuff, so sometimes I hit the teeth and it sounds like a duh instead of a tuh.

00:35:25Marc:dude my l's are like w's yeah i lisp a little bit and it's just like it's a disaster i don't hear that but i know i know but like they're rolling l's but what i can't do the rolling l's at all no i i know my i have rolling l's which means i do them with my throat not my tongue oh oh i see oh it's like la so it's not even a lot there's no it's just like yeah i don't know but no one's

00:35:48Guest:Same, I couldn't get, my jaw would close as I did it, so that would quiet the voice.

00:35:51Guest:And they got hung up on that?

00:35:52Guest:They got real hung up on that, man.

00:35:53Guest:They made me stay after class.

00:35:56Guest:Holy shit, I would go nuts.

00:35:57Guest:Whenever it was a group, they would focus on me for longer than everyone else.

00:36:01Marc:Really?

00:36:01Guest:Yeah, and it was really irritating.

00:36:03Guest:Yeah, you gotta stay after.

00:36:05Marc:Hey, hillbilly.

00:36:07Guest:We made a mistake in you.

00:36:08Marc:Can we fix it, please?

00:36:11Marc:What were we thinking?

00:36:12Marc:You fooled us with your pausing.

00:36:14Marc:We thought you were a genius.

00:36:16Marc:You're a master.

00:36:17Marc:Yeah, no.

00:36:18Guest:You're just dumb.

00:36:18Guest:Yeah.

00:36:19Guest:I got in here because I acted.

00:36:21Guest:And you guys bought it.

00:36:23Marc:Yeah.

00:36:25Marc:I fooled you when I think I was a good actor.

00:36:27Marc:So what else happened?

00:36:28Marc:So did they beat it out?

00:36:29Marc:Something must have turned out.

00:36:30Guest:Yeah, well, no, I actually ended up leaving.

00:36:33Guest:But you must have like, the process must have learned something.

00:36:37Guest:Oh, yes, yes.

00:36:38Guest:Sorry, mostly what I learned was, so a way I've told to other people is what they do there is they're gonna strip you down the first year, take away all your ideas of yourself,

00:36:47Guest:Take away all those tricks, take away all those plans you have.

00:36:51Guest:Yeah.

00:36:51Guest:Take them away, and they said you were gonna be a blank slate.

00:36:55Guest:Yeah.

00:36:55Guest:And I liked that, I thought that was right.

00:36:57Guest:Yeah.

00:36:58Guest:Something about that sounded right to me.

00:36:59Guest:Yeah.

00:36:59Guest:Be a blank canvas for every- But not if they terrorized it out of you.

00:37:03Guest:No, that part they didn't, that was real easy for me to attach to, because I wanted to go far.

00:37:08Guest:I learned stories there, I don't know if this is entirely true,

00:37:12Guest:that the Moscow Theater, they would, you know, back in the day, they would rehearse a play for a full year before they put it on.

00:37:19Guest:Yeah.

00:37:20Guest:And I thought that sounded amazing to go into that depth into the characters and explore all that stuff.

00:37:24Guest:And even if it's hard.

00:37:26Guest:So part of me was really ready to do that.

00:37:29Guest:Even though I wasn't capable yet, I was open to that.

00:37:31Guest:You know Bernthal?

00:37:33Marc:John?

00:37:33Guest:Yes, I do.

00:37:35Marc:He did that.

00:37:35Marc:He was like up in Russia doing Russian theater.

00:37:37Marc:No, I didn't know that.

00:37:38Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:37:39Marc:He's like hardcore, that guy.

00:37:40Marc:Wow.

00:37:41Guest:He's a real kind of like, you know, do the work, dude.

00:37:43Guest:Okay.

00:37:44Guest:I gotta talk to him because I don't really make the effort to go there.

00:37:48Guest:I think I just like, I'm ready for something.

00:37:51Guest:For me, it's not, I always saw it as just like dropping all the things rather than adding all the things.

00:37:56Guest:Like I needed to quiet all the me and quiet all.

00:38:00Guest:So I will go silent.

00:38:01Guest:I don't take notes.

00:38:02Guest:I don't write anything down.

00:38:03Guest:I don't.

00:38:04Guest:When you're preparing?

00:38:05Guest:Yeah.

00:38:05Guest:I never write anything down when I'm doing it because it takes me out.

00:38:08Marc:You locked into the blank slate thing, but you didn't like the process.

00:38:12Guest:No, I didn't like the sound of the actors.

00:38:14Marc:The blank slate's one thing, but then to sort of wire you all to kind of void your personalities.

00:38:21Marc:Yeah, what they're going to replace it with is some robot, some Juilliard robot.

00:38:24Guest:Or just a bore.

00:38:25Guest:We want the kids to go to sleep in the theater so the adults can watch.

00:38:30Marc:Well, I think they're just... It's sort of like... Mamet does sort of a take on that, too, where he believes that it's all in the lines and it doesn't matter even whether you can act.

00:38:41Marc:Do you know what I mean?

00:38:42Marc:Yeah.

00:38:43Marc:It's demeaning almost.

00:38:45Marc:Yeah.

00:38:45Marc:It's like you're here to serve my story.

00:38:47Marc:Go fuck yourself.

00:38:48Guest:Yeah, I don't like that.

00:38:49Guest:But I understand good writing can carry the day.

00:38:52Guest:Sure.

00:38:52Guest:And you get out of the way of really good writing as best you can.

00:38:55Guest:But no, that's no fun either.

00:38:59Marc:No.

00:38:59Marc:We want to do something.

00:38:59Guest:What happens?

00:39:00Guest:Did you blow up?

00:39:01Guest:To lose your mind?

00:39:03Guest:I started to get sick of it and- You got in trouble?

00:39:06Guest:Well, one of my friends, I didn't really, I somehow avoided trouble there and I did start smoking weed there though, but that actually, that was the one that helped.

00:39:15Guest:The weed was one that, cause I was a temperamental- Take it easy, take it easy.

00:39:20Guest:I don't mean, I don't mean helped like, you know what I mean?

00:39:23Guest:What I'm trying to say is I can see people using it as a medicine because at the time I had a hard temper and I was really quick to beat myself up if someone judged me.

00:39:33Guest:And something about it did switch that stuff.

00:39:35Guest:Oh yeah.

00:39:36Guest:And I'm not advocating going down that road.

00:39:38Guest:I'm just saying if you do- Everyone's going down that road.

00:39:41Guest:We live on that road.

00:39:41Guest:You can just go buy it like it's fucking McDonald's now.

00:39:44Marc:That's why your Postmates orders are all wrong, by the way.

00:39:47Marc:Probably.

00:39:49Marc:To be honest with you, I've got like, you know, I'm 23 years, something changed sober, and that's the one I miss.

00:39:55Marc:And I'll tell you, man, it's like, when you see it now, like people just like, it's cheap, and you can just buy it legally.

00:40:03Marc:Yeah, they're doing it everywhere.

00:40:04Marc:I know, and like, you know,

00:40:04Marc:I see, because there's dudes at the comedy store that are in the business, and they bring these buds and shit.

00:40:10Marc:I'm like, do you know how rare that was when I was smoking weed 23 years ago to see one of those buds?

00:40:15Marc:You're like, where did that come from?

00:40:16Marc:It's like gold.

00:40:17Marc:Yeah, like Canada.

00:40:19Guest:Yeah.

00:40:20Marc:Hawaii?

00:40:21Guest:Yeah, it's crazy.

00:40:21Guest:I remember that.

00:40:22Guest:Yeah, especially the New York dirt weed.

00:40:24Guest:That was my first experience.

00:40:25Guest:Going downtown, getting garbage in Washington Square Park.

00:40:28Marc:Oh my gosh, yeah.

00:40:29Marc:Or they had delivery services.

00:40:32Marc:When I was in New York, there used to be like this health food store.

00:40:34Marc:You could go in with a card.

00:40:36Guest:Oh, really?

00:40:36Marc:And they'd set you up.

00:40:37Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:40:39Marc:Wow, yeah.

00:40:39Marc:It was downtown.

00:40:40Marc:I can't remember who gave me the card, but it was like, it was never that good.

00:40:43Marc:You just had to find a guy.

00:40:44Marc:And now you don't even need a guy anymore.

00:40:46Marc:I need a store.

00:40:47Marc:You walk into the store.

00:40:48Guest:A store!

00:40:48Guest:I'm with you, though.

00:40:49Guest:It's crazy, because also, like, it's broken down to all its components, and people are always talking about all that stuff.

00:40:54Marc:Yeah, well, this one, you won't even feel it, but it'll make you nicer.

00:40:57Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:40:57Marc:what how do you not feel it what are you guys doing i know you gotta stay away from the thinking it's like i can feel it yeah tugging like like because i'm old now and i'm 23 years sober right and there's there's part of me that's like i didn't smoke weed but i know yeah

00:41:13Marc:I'll smoke it every day.

00:41:14Marc:Yeah, right, right.

00:41:14Marc:All day.

00:41:15Guest:It'll be, yeah, you'll lean on it.

00:41:16Guest:I mean, that's what we do.

00:41:17Marc:Every day.

00:41:17Marc:We're looking for something to lean on.

00:41:18Marc:Every day.

00:41:19Marc:Yeah.

00:41:19Marc:I would smoke it every day, and I would love it.

00:41:21Marc:And I would just be like a moron.

00:41:23Marc:Yeah, right.

00:41:24Marc:Inside a year, I'd be like, what day is it?

00:41:26Marc:You know, like, I'm almost that way already.

00:41:28Marc:Back to the bliss ignorance and such.

00:41:30Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:41:31Marc:Oh, sure.

00:41:32Marc:Yeah.

00:41:32Marc:But how'd you get in trouble for being funny over there?

00:41:35Marc:You said you got in trouble.

00:41:36Guest:Oh yeah, so we would do improvs, and I would try to make a joke out of it, make them laugh, and they were looking for you to explore the character with depth and really like- Oh, improvs within characters within plays.

00:41:46Guest:Yes, right, or just a concept.

00:41:48Guest:Oh, okay.

00:41:49Guest:Oh yeah, that's right.

00:41:50Guest:We would pick out a monologue, and then you would go in depth with that.

00:41:52Guest:Right, interesting.

00:41:53Guest:And then he did one where he just really went at me.

00:41:55Guest:I was playing John Wilkes Booth, and he really went at me.

00:41:58Guest:Hilarious guy.

00:41:59Guest:He's so funny.

00:42:00Guest:Yeah.

00:42:00Guest:An actor too.

00:42:01Guest:Classic comedian.

00:42:02Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:42:06Guest:I wasn't really trying to be funny with him.

00:42:07Guest:It was light still.

00:42:08Guest:So my ideal still wasn't about the depth.

00:42:11Guest:And he hammered me and hammered me until I was there, as they say.

00:42:14Guest:He just didn't let me go until I got there.

00:42:17Guest:And I did.

00:42:17Guest:And it was eye-opening.

00:42:18Guest:It was beautiful.

00:42:19Guest:Really?

00:42:20Guest:Yeah.

00:42:20Guest:And it was something I used to this day that now what he's doing, no longer I'm trying to make myself laugh.

00:42:25Guest:It really is exploring the depths and the realities of a day-to-day character.

00:42:28Guest:Really?

00:42:29Guest:Yeah, so I was appreciative, but it was interesting.

00:42:31Guest:How did he make you do it?

00:42:34Guest:He just kept stop thinking about it.

00:42:36Guest:He was this older man, John Stex, and he'd just sit like a little wise man and barely move.

00:42:41Guest:Yeah.

00:42:41Guest:He goes, stop, stop, stop.

00:42:43Guest:I'd be in it, stop, stop, stop.

00:42:44Guest:I'd stop and I'd be frustrated and looking around at everybody thinking about them judging me.

00:42:48Guest:And he said, Wes, you have to stop thinking.

00:42:52Guest:You've got to stop thinking.

00:42:55Guest:Go.

00:42:56Guest:And it was like, I'd do it and stop, stop.

00:42:58Marc:So the self-awareness, you mean the self-consciousness.

00:43:00Guest:Yeah, he knew I was in that room.

00:43:02Guest:He's like, you have to be in the room John's in.

00:43:04Guest:You gotta stop being in this room at Juilliard and start being in that barn where he's about to get burned out.

00:43:10Guest:Gotta be in that room.

00:43:10Guest:His life's in danger.

00:43:11Guest:Stop thinking about us.

00:43:12Guest:Wow.

00:43:13Marc:And eventually you got there and you realized like, okay, I got to do that.

00:43:17Marc:That's something I can use.

00:43:18Marc:Yeah.

00:43:19Guest:Oh yeah.

00:43:19Guest:And I always, and I have.

00:43:20Guest:Yeah.

00:43:20Guest:Wow.

00:43:22Guest:So how do you leave Juilliard?

00:43:23Guest:Well, I, so a friend was wanting to go audition for Rent and I sort of sang.

00:43:29Guest:I didn't want to go to class that day.

00:43:30Guest:So I said, I'm going to go with you to your audition to Rent.

00:43:33Guest:It was a cattle call outside of Bernie Telsey's office.

00:43:35Guest:Yeah.

00:43:36Guest:I know that guy.

00:43:37Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:43:38Guest:Didn't he have a little theater too?

00:43:39Guest:He might have.

00:43:40Guest:Bernie Telsey.

00:43:41Guest:He was, yeah, but he's, I don't know if he had a theater, but he's, you know, he's the big man on Broadway for casting.

00:43:45Marc:Yeah, right, right, Broadway caster.

00:43:47Marc:I remember meeting him at some point, because I lived in New York.

00:43:49Marc:I'm sure you did, yeah.

00:43:50Marc:They sent me out for things that I never got.

00:43:52Guest:Yeah.

00:43:52Guest:Yeah, well, I got lucky with him.

00:43:55Guest:So standing in that line outside, another casting director had walked down the line, was handing out her card, and she handed her card to me and said, come read for this movie later.

00:44:04Guest:And I was like, okay, is it a porn?

00:44:07Guest:Yeah.

00:44:08Guest:Like, why are you handing out cards?

00:44:09Guest:Yeah.

00:44:09Guest:And she said, no, it's legit.

00:44:11Guest:Just come down to here and read for it.

00:44:13Guest:Who was that?

00:44:14Guest:Meredith Jacobson.

00:44:15Guest:Uh-huh.

00:44:15Guest:Yeah.

00:44:16Guest:Yeah.

00:44:16Guest:And she's no longer doing it.

00:44:17Guest:And she barely was doing it then.

00:44:19Guest:Yeah.

00:44:19Guest:And so I went in and I actually got the callback for Rent.

00:44:23Guest:And that made me feel confident enough to go, I'm going to go try this audition.

00:44:26Guest:And my friend left, went back to school.

00:44:27Guest:And I went to go to the other audition.

00:44:29Guest:And seven callbacks later, I got it.

00:44:31Guest:And Kate Walsh was in it.

00:44:33Guest:And it was a tiny little nothing movie.

00:44:35Guest:Yeah.

00:44:35Guest:But getting it, I went and told Julia.

00:44:37Guest:I said, look, I'm out of here.

00:44:38Guest:I'm going to go do it.

00:44:40Marc:I'm going to go to work.

00:44:41Guest:Yeah, I'm going to go work on this stuff now.

00:44:43Guest:And they asked me to stay to the end.

00:44:46Guest:Actually, my classmates wanted to make sure I stayed to the end to do the project we were working on.

00:44:50Guest:Oh, for the first year, you mean?

00:44:51Guest:Yeah, but I wanted to go then.

00:44:53Guest:I was so, I was just, it didn't feel right for me.

00:44:55Guest:Yeah.

00:44:56Guest:Did you go?

00:44:56Guest:I went.

00:44:57Guest:I left, yeah.

00:44:58Guest:You didn't stay for the year.

00:45:00Guest:Oh, no, I'm sorry.

00:45:00Guest:I did stay for the year.

00:45:01Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:45:01Guest:Yeah, my friends were right.

00:45:02Guest:And it was nice to stay and it felt right to stay.

00:45:05Guest:Get some closure and like, good luck.

00:45:06Marc:Yeah.

00:45:07Guest:Not just be like, what happened to that guy?

00:45:08Guest:Yeah.

00:45:09Guest:Yeah, right, exactly.

00:45:09Guest:Oh, he got strung out on heroin.

00:45:12Marc:Haven't you heard?

00:45:12Guest:Really made something of himself.

00:45:17Guest:What class did we take for that?

00:45:21Marc:But so that was the first movie and that helped you and then like, well, I mean,

00:45:25Marc:You did a few, right?

00:45:26Guest:Yeah, well, that one helped me get an agent there, and that helped me book something called White River Kid with Antonio Banderas and Bob Hoskins, and that was shot in Arkansas.

00:45:35Guest:So Arnie Glimpshire directed it.

00:45:36Guest:He had directed- Who else was in it?

00:45:38Guest:Antonio Banderas, Bob Hoskins.

00:45:40Guest:Bob Hoskins.

00:45:41Guest:Ellen Barkin, yeah.

00:45:42Marc:Ellen Barkin, those are big people.

00:45:44Guest:Yeah, it was a big movie.

00:45:45Guest:Yeah, and it was great to go back to Arkansas where I had really put up with a lot of-

00:45:49Guest:borderline bullying from certain people, and it was satisfying to go back and get all these phone calls from all those kids.

00:45:55Guest:Hey, wanna come hang out?

00:45:56Guest:Hey, Wes, talking to me like they were my friend or something.

00:45:59Guest:Right, right, right.

00:46:00Guest:So there was some satisfaction in that for sure.

00:46:01Guest:Oh, that's good.

00:46:02Guest:Yeah, but then that, and then I auditioned for, after that I auditioned for American Beauty.

00:46:08Guest:Yeah.

00:46:09Guest:It kind of kicked my way in the door there with Lee.

00:46:11Guest:Lee helped me just, we went to LA, he's like, just go in.

00:46:13Guest:So you met, when did you pick him up?

00:46:16Guest:That was in New York after Juilliard, so I met him through a casting director as well.

00:46:22Marc:Are you guys still friends?

00:46:24Marc:Yeah, we're still friends, yeah.

00:46:25Guest:It ended weird, bad, because I was starting to go off the rails, and he was ready to move on and direct, so we had a moment there, we didn't talk, but it was good after that.

00:46:34Guest:Nothing worse for a manager than a client that's fucking out of his mind.

00:46:38Guest:Oh, he was done with me.

00:46:40Guest:I said no to everything.

00:46:42Guest:And he was just like, can we do something?

00:46:44Guest:Like leave the house?

00:46:46Marc:Like drugs, you mean?

00:46:49Marc:Wow.

00:46:49Marc:All right, so you do American Beauty, which was like a great movie.

00:46:52Marc:Thank you.

00:46:54Marc:I didn't make it.

00:46:55Marc:No, but you were great and everybody was great in it.

00:46:57Marc:I appreciate that.

00:46:59Marc:I think you took some comedic flack for the bag.

00:47:02Marc:But it's great.

00:47:04Marc:Yeah, you had nothing to do with that.

00:47:05Marc:I love that.

00:47:06Guest:It was great.

00:47:06Guest:No, I love people who make fun of the bag.

00:47:08Guest:I mean, it was borderline even for us.

00:47:10Marc:You guys were laughing at it?

00:47:12Guest:Well, it's on the fence.

00:47:14Guest:It's a bag.

00:47:15Guest:And even Thor was like, I don't get it.

00:47:17Guest:We shot that scene and she kept, after every take, she said, I just don't get it.

00:47:21Guest:I'm giving it.

00:47:22Guest:Borderline crying, trying to really make this something.

00:47:24Marc:And she went, eh, I don't see it.

00:47:27Marc:No, I found the whole thing effective.

00:47:30Guest:Yeah, it was the writing.

00:47:32Guest:It blew up for me and I've had a lot of years to think about this and I think I'm right.

00:47:38Guest:I think a combination of the great writing, I did a decent job and the fact that nobody knew who I was really made this character stand out.

00:47:46Guest:Yeah.

00:47:47Guest:Because if they had kind of even known me or other movies had come out, I think it would have had less of an impact because I don't think I was that good at it.

00:47:53Guest:right no I think you were I thought you were very good in it but I think like now talking to you and knowing like you know where you were coming from as an actor it you know you were right for the part oh thank you right I felt right for the part as soon as I read it it was I just knew it was mine I didn't have a doubt in my mind the whole audition process I should have yeah Brad Renfro was the main guy they wanted he's great I'm a great actor it's so weird because adding the two of you geez the late 90s man we were all doing but he's gone isn't he

00:48:23Guest:He's gone.

00:48:24Guest:He's gone.

00:48:24Guest:Yeah.

00:48:25Guest:Bad.

00:48:25Guest:It was bad.

00:48:26Guest:Real bad.

00:48:26Guest:He was real bad.

00:48:27Guest:Yeah.

00:48:28Guest:Did you guys hang during the using times?

00:48:30Guest:No, I think that's probably good.

00:48:31Guest:Yeah.

00:48:32Guest:I don't think I would have made that.

00:48:34Guest:You know, I tended to hang by myself when I got to the dangerous stuff.

00:48:37Marc:Well, so, all right.

00:48:38Marc:So you do this amazing movie.

00:48:40Marc:Renfro was great too, though.

00:48:41Marc:He was a good actor.

00:48:43Marc:Yeah.

00:48:45Marc:So then everything takes off?

00:48:47Yeah.

00:48:47Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:48:48Guest:And overnight, I got sent these faxes of what the press were saying about it before they were gonna release it.

00:48:54Guest:Yeah.

00:48:55Guest:And the things I was reading were just blowing my mind because it was a level I never thought I'd ever, ever reach or someone would ever say about me.

00:49:02Guest:Right.

00:49:04Guest:So, yeah, and then, you know, immediately recognizable overnight, everything changed.

00:49:10Guest:Yeah.

00:49:10Guest:Everything changed.

00:49:11Guest:Yeah.

00:49:11Guest:It's hard to describe even now because it's like, it's every facet of your life.

00:49:15Guest:So, you know, I could like list everything, you know.

00:49:17Marc:But now you're like the king of the town here.

00:49:19Marc:Yeah, it was, yeah.

00:49:20Guest:And that's not nothing in Hollywood.

00:49:23Guest:No, no.

00:49:23Guest:You got clothes, people want to buy you things, people want to give you stuff.

00:49:27Guest:Lots, yeah.

00:49:27Guest:That was the trip, because I grew up, you know, not poor, but lower.

00:49:31Guest:We didn't have a bunch of money.

00:49:32Guest:Definitely Walmart clothes, and you hang on to it as long as you can.

00:49:35Guest:to be then gifted a bunch of stuff.

00:49:38Guest:Yeah.

00:49:39Guest:I could see the world for what it was in a moment.

00:49:41Guest:Taking pictures of you?

00:49:42Guest:Taking pictures.

00:49:43Guest:Oh, the pictures I hated.

00:49:44Guest:I hated.

00:49:45Guest:I got really nervous about the attention.

00:49:46Guest:But didn't you do like fashion spreads and shit?

00:49:49Guest:I did, yeah.

00:49:50Guest:I didn't want to.

00:49:53Guest:You talking about Time Out New York and all that?

00:49:55Marc:Whatever, I don't know.

00:49:56Marc:Vandy Fair, yeah, I remember all that.

00:49:58Guest:All that stuff.

00:49:58Guest:Yeah, it was weird.

00:49:59Marc:I didn't want that side of it.

00:50:01Marc:I think it's like you're one of those rare people for them, like, you know, that they saw a movie star, right?

00:50:06Marc:Because you could act and you're a good looking guy.

00:50:09Marc:And that doesn't happen all the time.

00:50:10Marc:Usually the actors, you know, kind of squishy and weird looking sometimes.

00:50:13Marc:But, you know, so you got all the shit working and they're like, this is our guy.

00:50:17Marc:We're gonna hang clothes on him for the rest of time.

00:50:21Guest:And pictures, pictures, pictures.

00:50:22Guest:Yeah.

00:50:23Guest:Yeah, they did that.

00:50:24Guest:They tried to do that.

00:50:25Guest:But that was part of my rejection, because I had a hard rejection to all this, or tried to.

00:50:29Guest:You pushed back.

00:50:30Guest:I did.

00:50:31Guest:I let go, I should say, because it was friendly.

00:50:34Guest:I let go of publicists immediately.

00:50:36Guest:I was like, this is not for me.

00:50:37Guest:I don't want to go running around sticking strawberries in another girl's mouth.

00:50:42Guest:That's pretty specific.

00:50:43Guest:There was a shoot, right?

00:50:44Guest:That was kind of my line.

00:50:45Guest:Like, what are we doing here?

00:50:47Guest:And this is not me.

00:50:48Guest:So, you know, it was the 90s too.

00:50:50Guest:It was what we all were kind of, we wanted to be legit, like, you know, have credibility.

00:50:56Guest:We weren't like sellouts, all that.

00:50:57Guest:We were trying to avoid all that.

00:50:58Guest:Who's we?

00:50:59Guest:Just the 90s actors.

00:51:01Guest:I mean, in general, the vibe of the 90s.

00:51:02Guest:Who were your peers?

00:51:03Guest:Well, my peers at the time that I, well, people who would inspire me would be more like Nirvana.

00:51:09Guest:Oh yeah, okay, yeah, right.

00:51:10Guest:And Pearl Jam, that kind of vibe.

00:51:12Guest:Yeah, that whole thing was like rejecting fame, rejecting attention or money.

00:51:18Guest:Corporate money.

00:51:18Guest:Yeah, corporate money.

00:51:20Guest:That kind of thing.

00:51:21Guest:Now, if you don't sell out, you're a moron.

00:51:23Guest:You're an idiot.

00:51:24Guest:They want you to sell it the minute you sign up.

00:51:25Guest:You gotta become your brand.

00:51:26Guest:You're a brand.

00:51:28Guest:No, man.

00:51:29Guest:Yeah, man.

00:51:30Guest:My brand is schlub.

00:51:30Marc:Well, I mean, so where did you start to feel it come unraveled?

00:51:38Guest:They were, you know, the pressure of having to decide what was next.

00:51:43Marc:Did you get, were you offered Spider-Man?

00:51:46Marc:Yes.

00:51:47Marc:You were.

00:51:47Guest:Well, yes.

00:51:48Guest:And I don't know the real story.

00:51:49Guest:You know, I always hear it and I thought I knew at the time.

00:51:52Guest:All I understood, I always had the offer because it was up to me yes or no.

00:51:55Guest:From Lee?

00:51:56Guest:Lee was telling me that, yeah.

00:51:58Guest:So it was up to me, yes or no, and he was constantly pressuring, and I was a no from the beginning.

00:52:02Guest:At the time- No Spider-Man.

00:52:04Guest:Superhero movies were like, nobody was, we had come off the end of the Batman stuff with the nipples and all that.

00:52:12Marc:So Spider-Man, that was the beginning of the whole Marvel thing, right?

00:52:15Guest:Yeah, it was kind of, even pre that, still kind of, but it definitely was cooler than I, became cooler than I expected it to be.

00:52:22Guest:Not that I want, that probably made me say no even more.

00:52:26Guest:Yeah.

00:52:26Guest:I just didn't want that to be.

00:52:28Guest:So you turned down Spider-Man.

00:52:29Guest:I turned down Spider-Man.

00:52:30Guest:Is this when you were using?

00:52:32Guest:I was starting to use.

00:52:33Guest:It wasn't heavy until later, but like I was, yeah, that was starting to have an influence on my life.

00:52:37Guest:Well, so when did that happen exactly?

00:52:40Guest:Oh, the drugs being the influence?

00:52:42Guest:So, you know, cocaine was kind of the first problem that happened when I was shooting American Beauty, first time I tried it, but I didn't do it a bunch.

00:52:50Guest:It was kind of maybe on the weekend if someone else had it.

00:52:53Guest:But I was open to it.

00:52:54Guest:Yeah, let's do that.

00:52:54Guest:So what year was that, 1900?

00:52:55Guest:99, 2000.

00:52:56Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:52:57Guest:Yeah.

00:52:57Guest:So cocaine was still kind of around its back.

00:53:00Guest:I feel like it took a hiatus.

00:53:01Guest:I think it did, but it was definitely cocaine.

00:53:03Marc:Around then, yeah.

00:53:04Guest:Everybody was all about it then.

00:53:05Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:53:06Guest:Heroin was coming like right after that, but it was still a coke kind of town then, yeah.

00:53:11Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:53:11Guest:So you're doing the coke on American Beauty.

00:53:13Guest:Doing the coke, drinking more weed and all that, and heavy weed.

00:53:18Guest:Heavy weed.

00:53:19Guest:Affecting my performances, affecting my press.

00:53:22Guest:Were you high during American Beauty?

00:53:23Guest:No, not at all.

00:53:24Marc:Oh really?

00:53:25Guest:You never got high in the rolls?

00:53:28Guest:Yeah, I did.

00:53:28Guest:Yeah, not there.

00:53:29Guest:I had somehow dodged it.

00:53:31Guest:Starting at Four Feathers, which was not long after that, I was...

00:53:35Guest:a certain section of that movie, I was doing quite a bit of blow.

00:53:39Guest:It wasn't that I was doing it on set, but I would definitely not be off it.

00:53:42Guest:You know, the effects were still there when I was trying to work.

00:53:45Guest:Can you see it?

00:53:46Guest:Not in that one.

00:53:46Guest:In your performance?

00:53:47Guest:Because I was young, I think, I somehow got away with it.

00:53:49Guest:And most of it's in Morocco where I did not do any of that stuff.

00:53:52Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:53:53Guest:It was when we got to London.

00:53:54Marc:Getting that kind of trouble.

00:53:56Guest:Yeah.

00:53:56Guest:All right.

00:53:57Guest:So then game, the game of their lives.

00:53:59Guest:Yeah.

00:54:00Guest:So I would just say in this period, I was saying no a lot.

00:54:03Guest:Yeah.

00:54:03Guest:You know, what happened after American Beauty was basically I got offered everything in my age group, everything.

00:54:08Guest:And I had to pick and I was not ready for that.

00:54:10Guest:I didn't, I didn't really want to make it at a young age.

00:54:12Guest:Yeah.

00:54:12Guest:I knew the good roles were coming.

00:54:13Guest:Sure.

00:54:14Guest:So I, you know, it was hard for me to pick stuff and game of their lives is a soccer movie.

00:54:18Guest:So I was, I love soccer.

00:54:19Guest:Yeah.

00:54:19Guest:So I wanted to kind of push it.

00:54:22Guest:Did it work?

00:54:23Guest:It's not a good movie.

00:54:24Guest:It's not a bad movie.

00:54:25Guest:It's not a good movie.

00:54:25Guest:It's just kind of the story itself, the guys.

00:54:28Marc:So you're turning down all these defining movies of your generation.

00:54:31Marc:Yeah.

00:54:33Marc:Because you want to be a good actor and you want to hold out.

00:54:38Marc:And then you did a bunch of- Terrible movies?

00:54:41Yeah.

00:54:41Guest:Just be honest, yeah.

00:54:43Marc:And you start using drugs.

00:54:44Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:54:45Guest:So, like you said, the wheels came off.

00:54:47Guest:The decision making was gone.

00:54:49Guest:I mean, I should have- But what precipitated, was there a thing where the wheels came off?

00:54:54Guest:Yeah.

00:54:54Guest:Well, I was in a bad relationship, a relationship where we weren't helping each other.

00:54:59Guest:Sure.

00:54:59Guest:And that was certainly a catalyst for it.

00:55:02Guest:She definitely made it okay for me to say no in a stupid way to a lot of things.

00:55:07Guest:Oh, really?

00:55:08Guest:So you're like locked in?

00:55:09Guest:Yeah.

00:55:10Guest:I think I was getting a reputation for being difficult and don't even bother with him anymore kind of a thing.

00:55:17Guest:No one was really able to get me out of it.

00:55:19Guest:Not that they should have.

00:55:19Guest:That didn't work out.

00:55:22Marc:What, the guy from American Beauty?

00:55:25Guest:Yeah.

00:55:25Guest:That's it, yeah.

00:55:26Guest:That was the talk.

00:55:27Guest:He's a bust.

00:55:29Guest:Or a cautionary tale, as they say.

00:55:32Guest:So you started to feel that?

00:55:34Guest:I started to feel it.

00:55:35Guest:I could tell because the offers were getting worse, the money was getting lower.

00:55:39Guest:Yeah.

00:55:39Guest:The tomb.

00:55:40Guest:The tomb.

00:55:41Guest:Oh my God.

00:55:42Guest:The tomb.

00:55:44Guest:That was an Edgar Allan Poe.

00:55:46Guest:Was the tomb supposed to be an Edgar Allan Poe short story about Legia?

00:55:50Guest:And they called it the tomb later.

00:55:51Guest:And yeah, I was really messed up on that.

00:55:53Guest:That was my low.

00:55:54Guest:So those are the movies.

00:55:55Guest:It's good to hit bottom on a movie called The Tomb.

00:55:59Guest:I haven't even thought about that.

00:56:02Guest:It was a choice.

00:56:03Guest:I'm going to pretend like this is a choice.

00:56:05Guest:So who the fuck turns you on to dope?

00:56:11Guest:Just people I was hanging around.

00:56:13Guest:So part of it was that- Were you smoking it?

00:56:15Guest:Was it that tar shit?

00:56:16Guest:Yeah, I only smoked it.

00:56:18Guest:No, I should say I injected it once and that was-

00:56:20Guest:Awful.

00:56:21Guest:I never liked dope.

00:56:22Guest:I never liked it.

00:56:23Guest:I hardly liked Coke.

00:56:25Guest:Once you start doing it, you're doing it.

00:56:28Guest:And I was also killing pain.

00:56:29Guest:At this point, I was in this bad relationship.

00:56:33Guest:It was something.

00:56:33Marc:So it's right around 2005-ish.

00:56:35Marc:Yeah, six, seven, eight.

00:56:37Guest:After the soccer movie.

00:56:38Guest:Yeah.

00:56:38Guest:2006 through eight were my lows.

00:56:41Guest:That's when heroin was prominent.

00:56:43Guest:And you were just smoking it?

00:56:44Guest:Just smoking it.

00:56:45Guest:And I did it to balance the Coke feeling.

00:56:48Guest:I thought that was smart.

00:56:49Guest:Of course.

00:56:50Guest:You gotta sleep.

00:56:50Guest:Sleep.

00:56:53Guest:I was just desperate to like, I don't think I slept except Sundays.

00:56:57Guest:It was only when I sat down to watch football.

00:56:58Guest:So you couldn't even take the edge off.

00:56:59Guest:No, I was kind of, it was scary, man.

00:57:03Guest:I was all week, I'd stay up all week.

00:57:05Guest:I'd go looking all night for it.

00:57:08Guest:Where, downtown?

00:57:09Guest:Downtown, at the time Hollywood, before they kicked everyone out of Hollywood.

00:57:12Marc:For the tar shit?

00:57:13Guest:Yeah, no China white stuff or anything like that.

00:57:16Guest:That was the tar.

00:57:17Marc:Out here, yeah, that shit from Mexico.

00:57:20Guest:China white was on the East Coast.

00:57:21Guest:Right, or Australia.

00:57:22Guest:Yeah, Australia.

00:57:24Guest:Yeah, I did it once in Australia.

00:57:26Guest:Yeah, that was the good stuff.

00:57:27Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:57:28Guest:I know, I'm kind of happy that it wasn't.

00:57:31Guest:You could just snort that stuff.

00:57:32Guest:Right, yeah.

00:57:33Guest:You gotta smoke that tar shit.

00:57:35Guest:And I did a lot, yeah.

00:57:36Guest:I did a lot.

00:57:38Guest:So you got strung out.

00:57:41Guest:Very strung out, very noticeable.

00:57:43Guest:My family were trying to figure out how to intervene.

00:57:45Guest:My brother tried.

00:57:46Guest:I left the girl I was with and moved in this tiny little apartment in East Hollywood, like little Armenia, and I just shacked up, did a bunch of drugs, and made this terrible music on my computer and watched too many cuts of my movies constantly.

00:58:00Guest:Oh, really?

00:58:01Guest:I was just trying to heal whatever.

00:58:02Guest:What was the point of watching the movies?

00:58:05Guest:I thought it made me feel better about myself, I think.

00:58:07Guest:Oh.

00:58:07Guest:Cause I was really like, you know, it was.

00:58:09Guest:So you're getting all skinny and weird and pale and sweaty.

00:58:12Guest:I got like, I got like sort of bloated in my face and you know, I didn't get the skinny so much, but you could tell my eyes.

00:58:19Guest:Cause you were drinking a lot too?

00:58:21Guest:Yeah.

00:58:21Guest:I didn't, that's another one I didn't like, but did, you know, if, you know, if I had.

00:58:25Guest:You weren't enjoying yourself at all?

00:58:28Guest:No, because I was more of a psychedelics guy.

00:58:30Guest:I did all that because that was the crew I was running around.

00:58:32Guest:They went that hard stuff.

00:58:33Guest:And once you start, you're locked in.

00:58:35Marc:You can't get out.

00:58:36Guest:I did not like it.

00:58:37Guest:That's what was crazy about it.

00:58:38Guest:You didn't like it for three years?

00:58:39Guest:I didn't like the feeling of it.

00:58:40Guest:No, isn't that crazy?

00:58:41Guest:I mean, of course, there were moments where I thought I did, but it was just because I was easing the pain of withdrawal.

00:58:46Marc:Yeah, right.

00:58:46Guest:It really wasn't like I was loving.

00:58:48Guest:Immediately with heroin, all you're doing is trying to ease that withdrawal.

00:58:51Guest:For me, it wasn't.

00:58:53Guest:I didn't get that euphoria everyone gets.

00:58:54Guest:Never the 10,000 orgasms.

00:58:56Guest:Not even the one time you shot it?

00:58:57Guest:No, no, I felt sick and I don't like being drunk and stuff where you're incoherent, you can't keep your head up.

00:59:06Guest:And that's all that I did.

00:59:07Marc:Wow, so you did all these years of horrible drug use.

00:59:12Guest:I did all this.

00:59:13Marc:But you never had a good time.

00:59:15Guest:No.

00:59:16Guest:No, I mean, no.

00:59:17Guest:I would go dancing.

00:59:18Guest:Ecstasy, ecstasy, actually.

00:59:19Marc:That's different.

00:59:20Guest:We skipped the ecstasy period.

00:59:21Guest:That was kind of the bridge way.

00:59:23Guest:And that's when I would go dancing.

00:59:24Guest:I DJ'd a bit.

00:59:25Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:59:26Guest:And I loved, like, house music.

00:59:28Marc:But so, like, during this time, you're doing P2.

00:59:31Marc:Yeah.

00:59:32Yeah.

00:59:37Marc:The ungodly.

00:59:39Marc:Oh, man, yeah.

00:59:40Marc:Ghost Rider.

00:59:42Guest:Yeah.

00:59:42Marc:Was that Nicolas Cage?

00:59:43Guest:Yeah, and I had a good time on that, actually, even though I didn't do a good job on it.

00:59:47Guest:I really could have done a better job with that.

00:59:48Guest:Everyone else was doing some fun stuff, at least, and I think I just was trying to get to the club.

00:59:53Guest:Oh, really?

00:59:54Guest:Yeah, Sam Elliott was great, yeah.

00:59:56Guest:Everyone on it, I had a great time on that one.

00:59:58Guest:Was Nick good?

00:59:58Guest:Did you talk to him?

00:59:59Guest:Yeah, I had a good time with Nick.

01:00:00Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:00:00Guest:Oh, not much.

01:00:01Guest:He had a baby on the way and he was trying to keep clean and stuff, so we wouldn't have clicked then.

01:00:07Marc:Right, right, stay away from that trailer.

01:00:09Marc:That's what they told him.

01:00:10Guest:Yeah, that's basically what was written on my forehead and my shirt, I think, at the time.

01:00:13Guest:Stay away from that guy.

01:00:15Marc:He's going to suck everybody in if we're not careful.

01:00:19Marc:So the tomb, that was it.

01:00:21Marc:That's your bottom.

01:00:23Marc:Yeah, the tomb.

01:00:24Marc:Are you high on that movie?

01:00:25Guest:Oh yeah, very.

01:00:25Marc:Dolan's Cadillac?

01:00:27Marc:What was that?

01:00:28Guest:So that's a Stephen King short story.

01:00:30Guest:And that's where I started to get the inkling that I wanted, that something was amiss.

01:00:36Guest:I needed to get clean.

01:00:37Guest:So I met a girl on that named Jackie, who's now my wife.

01:00:41Guest:And so I met her.

01:00:42Guest:You met her fucked up?

01:00:44Guest:I was, well, I came into Canada, couldn't carry anything with me and they didn't have anything in this little town.

01:00:48Guest:So I was sweating it out.

01:00:50Guest:I had some methadone that I've snuck in.

01:00:52Guest:And so that eased me off it.

01:00:54Guest:And then I was just kind of drinking.

01:00:55Guest:See how you're on methadone?

01:00:56Guest:Well, I was not prescribed it or anything, but someone gave it to me to ease it.

01:01:01Marc:So you wouldn't lose it?

01:01:02Guest:Yeah, yeah, because they knew I was going to if I didn't, and I would have probably.

01:01:05Marc:So you had to smoke a lot of heroin to get that strung out.

01:01:07Guest:Oh, I was a lot, yeah.

01:01:08Guest:I prided myself on being the guy who could do the most and stay alive.

01:01:14Marc:So what was your daily habit?

01:01:17Guest:At the worst of it, I don't remember now, definitely more than a gram.

01:01:21Guest:I mean, it was probably like a couple of grams, right?

01:01:24Marc:Right, so you had a couple of hundred a day?

01:01:25Marc:Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:01:27Guest:I threw all my money at it.

01:01:28Guest:And then when I didn't have money, I'd beg for more.

01:01:30Guest:And then the running out of money and meeting the girl, going to Canada.

01:01:35Marc:Did you ever find yourself in positions that were?

01:01:38Guest:Yeah, one guy came to my house and kicked the door down.

01:01:40Guest:I was afraid one guy was gonna shoot me.

01:01:43Guest:I was walking back and forth in my house, checking the windows car department.

01:01:47Guest:Really?

01:01:47Guest:Checking the windows, just thinking they're gonna show up any moment, yeah.

01:01:50Guest:Oh, probably a thousand or something.

01:01:52Guest:I think I've worked that out, but yeah.

01:01:55Guest:Yeah.

01:01:55Guest:Yeah, there was scary.

01:01:56Guest:And you know, like I said, I'd go downtown.

01:01:58Guest:That was scary too.

01:01:59Guest:I'd hang with people all day.

01:02:00Guest:I'd pick up someone downtown, go downtown, someone who's living on the street, maybe, I don't know.

01:02:05Guest:We'd all want to go get drugs.

01:02:06Guest:We'd all go get drugs and go smoke downtown in my Cadillac.

01:02:10Guest:Hang out all day like that.

01:02:11Marc:Wow.

01:02:11Guest:It's crazy.

01:02:12Marc:You're lucky you weren't shooting.

01:02:14Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:02:15Guest:I drew a line there for some reason.

01:02:17Marc:I know, it's one of those lines.

01:02:19Marc:I drew that line too.

01:02:20Marc:Did you?

01:02:21Marc:Yeah.

01:02:21Marc:Because you, heroin as well?

01:02:23Marc:Not really.

01:02:23Marc:Okay.

01:02:25Marc:I just didn't take to it, but it was definitely blow, and I smoked heroin a few times.

01:02:29Marc:Yeah.

01:02:29Marc:But it was, you know, you're just, when you're in drug world, you're in drug world.

01:02:33Marc:Yeah.

01:02:33Marc:But I think that was what, that was my line was because I felt like if I did that, if I was to try heroin by shooting it,

01:02:42Marc:then there's the possibility I'll never get out.

01:02:45Marc:Yeah, I thought that too.

01:02:46Guest:I thought that, because I saw, I hung with people who did that and they would just, they like shit themselves, they were laid out on the couch, they were like abscesses all over their arms.

01:02:56Guest:So you're hanging out with those guys?

01:02:57Guest:Yeah, because they're also doing meth.

01:02:58Guest:They were doing the meth heroin flip.

01:03:01Guest:So you were a meth guy too?

01:03:02Guest:No, no, I didn't.

01:03:03Guest:I would judge them as, by then I was smoking crack and making it myself.

01:03:07Guest:I was like, you guys are gross and dumb.

01:03:09Guest:And then they're like, you're gross.

01:03:11Guest:So you're making your own crack.

01:03:13Marc:You're basing.

01:03:15Guest:I'm basing, yeah.

01:03:15Guest:And that costs a lot of money too, yeah.

01:03:17Guest:A lot of money.

01:03:18Guest:A lot of money.

01:03:19Guest:To ruin Coke.

01:03:19Guest:Yeah.

01:03:21Marc:To figure out how to do that.

01:03:22Marc:Just a learning curve is gonna cost you a bit of money.

01:03:25Guest:Yeah, yeah, true.

01:03:27Guest:That was the worst when it would disappear in the water.

01:03:29Guest:Like that was just, that was going to be terrible for four days.

01:03:32Guest:He fucked it up.

01:03:36Guest:He did the baking soda.

01:03:37Guest:He didn't pull it together.

01:03:38Guest:No, no.

01:03:38Guest:Oh, there it goes.

01:03:41Guest:And you drink it.

01:03:42Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:03:43Guest:That's right.

01:03:43Guest:Yeah.

01:03:43Guest:Whatever it takes.

01:03:44Guest:Oh, I would dig around on my floor.

01:03:45Guest:I had back problems for a while because I'd dig around on my floor for hours looking for stuff.

01:03:49Guest:Oh my God.

01:03:50Guest:I was a real skeez.

01:03:52Guest:Like I was not.

01:03:52Guest:This keeps getting better and better.

01:03:55Guest:I was an ugly drug addict.

01:03:56Guest:I know that you can say generally.

01:03:58Marc:And you're just hanging around.

01:03:59Marc:Well, that's something I always say about the thing that you don't hear talked about when you do get so present.

01:04:06Marc:It's not just the drugs, it's the situations you're in that become deadly.

01:04:09Marc:Yeah, you can die from drugs, but if you're in that life,

01:04:14Marc:Your possibility of getting killed exponentially grows every day you walk out the door.

01:04:19Guest:Yes.

01:04:20Guest:Yes.

01:04:20Guest:By many, many factors.

01:04:22Guest:Yeah.

01:04:23Guest:You driving yourself.

01:04:24Guest:Driving, buying, hanging out, people getting rolled.

01:04:27Guest:Yep.

01:04:28Guest:Owing money.

01:04:29Guest:That's, yeah.

01:04:30Yeah.

01:04:30Guest:Yeah, or just somebody who wants to, you know, if you're all high and somebody's just feeling like you don't know this person, who knows what they're like.

01:04:36Marc:Who knows what they're going to do?

01:04:37Marc:Yeah, they're going to lose it.

01:04:38Marc:And you're nodding off.

01:04:39Marc:Right.

01:04:39Marc:Yeah.

01:04:41Marc:Well, good for you for living.

01:04:43Marc:Thank you.

01:04:43Marc:How many years were you at that shit?

01:04:45Guest:I mean, it probably was only four years.

01:04:48Marc:But it's so funny that you never liked it, but you were freebasing.

01:04:51Marc:I never liked it, but I figured out how to make crack.

01:04:54Guest:Yeah, you must've liked that.

01:04:55Marc:People like that generally.

01:04:57Guest:Yeah, well, it's always the first few times, right?

01:04:59Guest:And the rest of it is chasing that feeling and not wanting to deal with it.

01:05:03Guest:Not wanting to deal with actually coming off it.

01:05:05Guest:Yeah, not having it.

01:05:06Marc:I just wasn't, I was afraid of dealing with it.

01:05:09Marc:But if you didn't get the orgasm brain from the dope, you probably got it from the base.

01:05:15Guest:Yeah, the crack was different.

01:05:16Guest:Yeah, it definitely did this like, that poof and all that, but it's like literally a second, and then the rest of it's you're just crushing.

01:05:23Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:05:24Guest:And then you're looking for it again.

01:05:25Guest:Yeah, great.

01:05:26Marc:In your carpet.

01:05:27Marc:Breaking off another thing.

01:05:28Guest:In your carpet, in your trash can.

01:05:29Guest:I think I did it in the bathroom.

01:05:31Marc:Did you have psychosis?

01:05:33Marc:Did you get psychosis?

01:05:33Guest:Oh, yeah, and once I learned afterward what an overdose is, I think I overdosed every day.

01:05:38Guest:Yeah.

01:05:39Guest:I was hearing stuff, I was sweating, I was, you know, all the things.

01:05:41Guest:Yeah, the hearing thing, that's always exciting, yeah.

01:05:43Guest:Yeah, seeing, oh, I had full songs written of seeing like people in my yard or knocking on my back door window and,

01:05:51Guest:And I thought one woman was standing outside my door, like just holding her arm up and looking at me, frozen.

01:05:56Guest:It was a tree.

01:05:57Guest:The next day, I realized it was a tree after I came up from under the table.

01:06:01Marc:How fucked up were you?

01:06:01Marc:Were you like, the lady turned into a tree?

01:06:06Marc:This stuff is really good.

01:06:08Marc:Wow.

01:06:11Marc:Magic.

01:06:13Marc:So, like, is anybody trying to help?

01:06:16Guest:Yeah.

01:06:17Guest:Yeah, I mean, but what can anyone really do when you're that far?

01:06:21Guest:I mean, I was like, like I said, the amount I was doing.

01:06:22Marc:You're just in this apartment?

01:06:23Guest:Like, where was all the money from?

01:06:25Guest:Just from work?

01:06:25Guest:Work, yeah.

01:06:26Guest:So that's why I would go to those jobs and get messed up on them.

01:06:28Guest:I was just trying to stay high.

01:06:30Guest:You were Charlie Sheening it.

01:06:31Guest:Yeah.

01:06:31Guest:Yeah, I gave up on the idea of my career.

01:06:33Guest:I was like, I thought once, you know.

01:06:35Marc:But you were still taking shit.

01:06:37Guest:Lost.

01:06:37Guest:And you still had an agent.

01:06:38Guest:I still had an agent, yeah, and you know.

01:06:40Guest:And Lee hung out to drive.

01:06:43Guest:Yeah, he left and became a successful director.

01:06:45Guest:I'll say.

01:06:46Guest:Yeah.

01:06:47Guest:And watching that was hard, but also inspiring.

01:06:50Guest:You know, it was inspiring because it felt like, you know, I could, you know, I don't know, I was a piece of that, which I'm not.

01:06:56Guest:I see now, though.

01:06:57Guest:But part of me was like, oh, I'm attached to him somehow.

01:07:00Guest:Right.

01:07:00Guest:It's weird.

01:07:01Guest:Sure.

01:07:01Guest:Yeah.

01:07:02Marc:Well, I mean, when you're like delusional and fucking strung out on drugs, you're like, that's me.

01:07:06Guest:That's part of me.

01:07:08Marc:I'm connected to that.

01:07:09Marc:Yeah.

01:07:10Marc:Now let me just ask you, because I'm curious.

01:07:11Marc:Did you really think you were doing something with the music?

01:07:14Marc:Was that...

01:07:14Marc:Yeah.

01:07:16Marc:I mean, I thought it was cool.

01:07:17Guest:I thought it was like, but no.

01:07:19Guest:I was just using loops and like, you know, nothing good.

01:07:23Marc:Oh God, you really did it.

01:07:24Guest:That was like the solo journey, man.

01:07:27Guest:It was every caricature you can imagine of a young actor breaking through too early.

01:07:31Marc:Well, just the drug addict stuff where you're just sort of like alone, celebrating your genius of nothing.

01:07:37Marc:While you're making your music.

01:07:40Guest:Send you it to people who don't want to listen to it.

01:07:42Marc:No, you send it to people.

01:07:43Guest:Oh, sure.

01:07:44Marc:Yeah, yeah.

01:07:44Guest:Check this out.

01:07:45Guest:They put it, actually two of my songs on a, well, they were going to put it on a soundtrack, but it didn't happen.

01:07:49Guest:They were just appeasing me, I think.

01:07:51Guest:So how does it, how do you finally get help?

01:07:55Guest:A couple things happened, like I went up to Canada, shot that movie and met my girl.

01:08:01Guest:Nancy?

01:08:02Guest:Jackie.

01:08:03Guest:And I left after that, so it was like a long distance thing.

01:08:08Guest:But you didn't get clean yet.

01:08:09Guest:Oh, I tried to go back up with her and I got rejected by Canada.

01:08:12Guest:Wouldn't let you in.

01:08:13Guest:Wouldn't let me in, I had to turn around, I couldn't go back up.

01:08:15Guest:Would you have a record?

01:08:16Guest:Yeah, I had been arrested right before that movie.

01:08:20Guest:After Heath died, who was my close friend, a couple months after that, I got arrested for possession and passing a counterfeit 100.

01:08:29Guest:What?

01:08:29Guest:I didn't know it was counterfeit.

01:08:30Guest:I mean, I'm literally out of my, it could have been Monopoly money.

01:08:33Guest:So when did you meet Heath?

01:08:36Guest:I met Heath on Four Feathers.

01:08:38Guest:Yeah, and we hit off right away like brothers.

01:08:41Guest:We were very close immediately.

01:08:43Guest:So that's how you spend time in Australia?

01:08:46Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:08:46Guest:Well, no, actually I went and shot Ghost Rider in Australia.

01:08:49Guest:But he was there shooting, I can't remember the name of it.

01:08:53Guest:Yeah, but he was shooting something.

01:08:54Guest:Oh, so like his career, just watching that happen while you're in that room, picking through your carpet?

01:09:00Guest:You know, I'm going to tell you about that because this is, we did Four Feathers and he, or sorry, Lee Daniels wanted me to do Monster's Ball.

01:09:09Guest:And I had been talking to them about doing Monsters Ball.

01:09:11Marc:What part would you have played in that?

01:09:12Guest:The kid, the one Heath played eventually, who shot himself, the son.

01:09:16Guest:Oh, right.

01:09:17Guest:And I decided I didn't wanna do it because it was too much like American Beauty.

01:09:22Guest:And I thought, this is too similar and I wanna avoid it.

01:09:25Guest:And so they were like, well, you gotta do it.

01:09:27Guest:They're counting on you.

01:09:28Guest:And so I said, well, what if I can get Heath Ledger?

01:09:30Guest:Yeah, and then Heath came over to my hotel room and I just begged him and I was like, do a Southern accent, I'll show you.

01:09:36Guest:He could do it anyway.

01:09:37Guest:He didn't really need my help.

01:09:38Guest:Really?

01:09:38Guest:I was like, do you want to do this role?

01:09:40Guest:It's amazing.

01:09:41Guest:I just think it's too close to what I've done.

01:09:43Guest:And he was like, yeah, I want to do it.

01:09:45Guest:And it turned, he flipped his career where people were like, oh, he was sort of more recognized as a rom-com actor, potentially that kind of actor.

01:09:55Guest:And I knew he was something better.

01:09:56Guest:He knew something more than that.

01:09:58Guest:Yeah.

01:09:59Guest:And he showed it on that movie and it got him going, right?

01:10:02Marc:So you guys were buddies before you were using, really?

01:10:04Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:10:05Guest:And we partied together, but we were never like a problem with each other.

01:10:09Marc:It wasn't like that.

01:10:10Marc:You did that on your own.

01:10:11Guest:We had a good time.

01:10:11Guest:That's why I was having a good time.

01:10:12Guest:Yeah, when I did all that, I went alone.

01:10:15Guest:Like a cat going off to the woods.

01:10:17Marc:Do you know what happened with him?

01:10:18Marc:Did he get strung out?

01:10:20Guest:Or was that just an accident?

01:10:21Guest:That's an accident, yeah.

01:10:23Guest:I had been speaking to him less than because he had a kid and I was getting strung out and I was trying to avoid bringing anything into his life, which I regret now.

01:10:31Guest:But yeah, from what I understood, he wasn't doing crazy stuff or anything.

01:10:38Marc:Yeah, that's too bad.

01:10:39Marc:It was sad.

01:10:40Guest:How did that affect you?

01:10:41Guest:I had a weird reaction to it.

01:10:43Guest:I denied it immediately, and I wouldn't go to the memorial because I was also messed up, but I denied it, and then it hit me months later.

01:10:50Guest:That it happened?

01:10:51Marc:Yeah.

01:10:51Marc:But you were too fucked up to really process it?

01:10:54Guest:Yeah, and I felt guilty almost, like somehow I had something to do with it.

01:10:58Marc:Or that you're alive, survivor's guilt.

01:11:00Guest:Yeah, that's right.

01:11:01Guest:That's right.

01:11:01Guest:I still kind of have that a little bit, yeah.

01:11:04Guest:Because I did way more than him, and I was way worse off than him, and I just sometimes feel like that's unfair.

01:11:11Guest:Yeah.

01:11:11Guest:He won an Oscar, didn't he?

01:11:14Guest:Or the movie, Brokeback?

01:11:16Guest:Did he win one for Dark Knight, right?

01:11:19Guest:No, he got close with Brokeback.

01:11:20Marc:Oh, yeah, Dark Knight, right?

01:11:21Guest:Yeah, Dark Knight he won it, but Brokeback probably was what he should have won it for.

01:11:24Guest:I mean, I love Dark Knight.

01:11:26Guest:Yeah.

01:11:26Guest:He blew the lid off, like, that's amazing.

01:11:29Guest:Yeah.

01:11:30Guest:But I really thought Brokeback was a harder thing for him to do.

01:11:33Guest:Yeah.

01:11:34Guest:And he did it so well.

01:11:35Guest:So anyways, who knows what the words?

01:11:37Marc:How was your jealousy factor?

01:11:38Guest:I was off the charts with Dark Knight because I'm also a Batman fan, and I was scared for him when he took it.

01:11:45Guest:I said, you know you're never going to do what Jack did.

01:11:50Guest:Yeah.

01:11:50Guest:And he was like, so that, yeah, I mean, but...

01:11:54Guest:I don't feel that way now.

01:11:55Guest:I felt very strongly that then I wanted that.

01:11:58Guest:I wanted that, right?

01:11:59Marc:And so that just added to the shame festival.

01:12:02Guest:Yes.

01:12:02Guest:He died.

01:12:03Guest:He came out.

01:12:03Guest:He was amazing.

01:12:04Guest:There's a lot of things just beat me down.

01:12:06Guest:Any confidence I had was at a low point.

01:12:09Guest:Wow.

01:12:10Marc:All right.

01:12:11Marc:So you try to go back to Canada and they won't let you come in.

01:12:15Guest:Yeah.

01:12:15Marc:And your chick is up there.

01:12:16Marc:Yeah.

01:12:18Marc:Oh, she was with me when I got rejected.

01:12:20Marc:And she had to go up and I had to go back.

01:12:22Marc:That's a proud moment.

01:12:24Marc:Did she know you had gotten arrested and shit?

01:12:26Guest:Yeah.

01:12:27Guest:Well, I had forgotten about it until that moment, until I had voided courts and all this stuff.

01:12:33Guest:And so I went and fixed it after that, but yeah.

01:12:36Marc:okay so so what what sorry it's crazy sometimes when i roll back everything it just like what the hell man well it's interesting because when you're in a chaotic life just how much you get done that's it's it's not worth anything but there's a lot of activity you haven't heard my music you don't know what it's worth

01:12:56Guest:but there's just so much activity because your life's a fucking chaotic drama yeah all the time oh yeah yeah i really didn't want it not to be i guess i could have stopped it at any moment no you couldn't well i i guess in a well i guess some things i could have right i mean some point i could have been like all right you're doing too many drugs that's what eventually happened but yeah but if you're a drug addict it's not an easy moment to come by

01:13:19Guest:No, and it doesn't, sorry, I didn't cut you off, but I was gonna say, it doesn't happen like that.

01:13:23Guest:How did it happen?

01:13:24Guest:It's too, so her, I started to think, I wanna get cleaned up for her, but when I went back to LA, I just, of course, fell right back into it, and maybe went worse, because it was all starting to come, I'm never gonna get this girl.

01:13:35Guest:Like everything, heat's dead, the girl, you can't get into Canada, what the fuck?

01:13:39Guest:It's a fucking point.

01:13:40Guest:Where am I gonna run to when Donald Trump's eventually elected?

01:13:43Guest:Yeah, I know.

01:13:44Guest:We're all wondering.

01:13:45Guest:We gotta wonder again now.

01:13:46Guest:Yeah.

01:13:47Guest:Oh, I got my out.

01:13:49Guest:What is that?

01:13:49Guest:Oh, you married a Canadian?

01:13:50Guest:Yeah.

01:13:51Guest:You fucking, you figured it out.

01:13:54Guest:I did, I did.

01:13:55Guest:I was ahead of it.

01:13:56Guest:Yeah.

01:13:57Guest:So Robert Downey Jr.

01:13:58Guest:actually being open about his recovery and how far he went, and I had met him a few times.

01:14:03Guest:He was in jail.

01:14:04Guest:Right.

01:14:05Guest:He did real time.

01:14:06Guest:He did real time and he was doing the same shit.

01:14:09Guest:And so when I saw him get cleaned and career could come back, it was like the first thing, a moment of like, you can do that.

01:14:17Guest:You can do that.

01:14:18Guest:So you're like, I can be Spider-Man.

01:14:21Guest:Still.

01:14:22Guest:Yeah.

01:14:23Guest:We'll reboot it.

01:14:24Guest:Yeah.

01:14:25Guest:Yeah.

01:14:25Guest:Older Spider-Man.

01:14:28Marc:That's what I'm talking about now.

01:14:29Marc:Yeah.

01:14:31Marc:So you'd met him, but he didn't reach out to you, but you were inspired.

01:14:35Guest:Yeah, it was just his press, you know, and just the way.

01:14:37Guest:And so it was like, I can do this.

01:14:40Guest:And then after that, it was, I moved to my mom's house in Baltimore.

01:14:44Guest:Proud moment.

01:14:45Guest:Lived there for like three or four months.

01:14:47Guest:Oh my God.

01:14:48Guest:The star is back.

01:14:51Guest:I'm so proud of you, son.

01:14:54Guest:I'm so proud of myself, mom.

01:14:57Guest:I did it.

01:14:59Guest:I'm back home.

01:15:01Guest:And you did it cold turkey?

01:15:02Guest:No, it was just random money.

01:15:04Guest:It was part of it.

01:15:05Guest:So money, it ended up just being alcohol, which I hated.

01:15:08Guest:So a combination of that was drying me out.

01:15:11Guest:Perspective was changing with the girl.

01:15:14Guest:Mom was reinforcing my, giving me some confidence back.

01:15:17Guest:And I was auditioning in New York.

01:15:19Guest:I was taking the train up there.

01:15:20Marc:So you just went home.

01:15:21Marc:You crapped out here.

01:15:22Guest:You probably had debts.

01:15:23Guest:Oh, I did.

01:15:24Guest:That's what I was avoiding, was someone I owned and fixed that when I came back eventually.

01:15:28Guest:A dangerous guy?

01:15:31Guest:He said he was, but it's hard to know who really is or not, especially in that game.

01:15:35Guest:Some people just talking.

01:15:36Marc:So you couldn't afford drugs.

01:15:37Marc:You tapped out.

01:15:38Marc:You were in debt and you were scared.

01:15:40Marc:Scared.

01:15:41Marc:But you kind of wanted that girl and you didn't have anywhere to go, so you went back to your mom.

01:15:47Guest:As we do.

01:15:48Guest:Yeah.

01:15:49Guest:And then I booked a job.

01:15:50Guest:Where's your dad?

01:15:51Guest:My dad was in Arkansas and I would have gone to him too, but it was easier.

01:15:54Guest:They got divorced at some point?

01:15:56Guest:Oh yeah, they got divorced right after I left high school.

01:15:59Guest:See what you did?

01:16:01Guest:It's all my fault.

01:16:04Guest:Yeah.

01:16:04Guest:Mama.

01:16:06Guest:You know, I was the only one of my brothers, I think, who didn't feel that way.

01:16:08Guest:I was sort of like, it's life, this happens.

01:16:10Guest:I'm sad, still sad.

01:16:12Marc:But she took you in and it was good.

01:16:14Guest:Yeah, it was great.

01:16:14Guest:And I booked a job there.

01:16:16Guest:And then when I got on that job, I went and shot in Argentina.

01:16:19Guest:It's called There Be Dragons.

01:16:21Guest:There was an actor on there who was sober and he was just, didn't know I was having trouble because I was sort of dealing with it then just drinking and just hanging on, white knuckle they say.

01:16:29Guest:And my future wife was with me.

01:16:33Guest:She came with me to Argentina.

01:16:34Guest:Just to watch you?

01:16:36Guest:Yeah, she just came to visit and be in Argentina, which was amazing.

01:16:40Guest:What did she do?

01:16:42Guest:She was an associate producer on a television show up in Canada, and she had been an AD on a few projects, and before that, a journalist.

01:16:49Guest:All right.

01:16:50Guest:Yeah.

01:16:51Guest:Legit person.

01:16:51Guest:Yeah.

01:16:52Guest:So she comes with you.

01:16:53Marc:A real person.

01:16:53Marc:And you're there with a sober guy.

01:16:55Guest:Yeah.

01:16:55Guest:And he started talking about how, he was talking about driving in a car and looking outside and looking at how beautiful they was and how lucky he was to be alive and all that stuff.

01:17:05Marc:The gratitude trip.

01:17:06Marc:Yes.

01:17:06Guest:And as they say, it happens like that.

01:17:09Guest:Yeah.

01:17:09Guest:You just hear it from somebody and it clicks like, oh, I want that back.

01:17:12Guest:Yeah.

01:17:12Guest:Right.

01:17:13Guest:I want that.

01:17:13Guest:So I went to him and said, help me.

01:17:16Guest:And he said, okay, just come with me to some meetings.

01:17:18Guest:And it was great because it was Argentina.

01:17:19Guest:It was small English speaking meetings, like five people.

01:17:22Marc:So I didn't feel overwhelmed like in LA I would have.

01:17:25Marc:I think I would have walked right out of those big meetings.

01:17:27Marc:You would have seen half the guys you used with and your dealer.

01:17:29Marc:Exactly.

01:17:30Marc:And eventually one of you would fuck the other one up.

01:17:32Marc:Yeah.

01:17:32Guest:It was like standing outside of those, like standing outside the club, the same people.

01:17:36Guest:Which is fine, but it wasn't gonna help me.

01:17:38Guest:So I, you know, going and seeing him in these meetings and already having my connection to God, so I had my higher power already.

01:17:47Guest:So you could tap into that shit.

01:17:48Guest:Yeah, it was all like, it just worked and it was like midday.

01:17:50Marc:Yeah, he was the guy that sent the lady who turned into a tree.

01:17:52Guest:Same guy.

01:17:56Guest:He was looking for me.

01:17:57Guest:He was.

01:17:58Guest:By scaring me, but looking for me.

01:18:00Guest:Exactly.

01:18:01Guest:Oh man, there were a few times I got pulled over downtown that I could probably thank God for that.

01:18:07Guest:Sure.

01:18:07Guest:I got out of that.

01:18:09Guest:Yeah, but so that guy, so he inspired me.

01:18:12Guest:So I went in and I got sober and it was like, it turned, I flipped just like that.

01:18:16Guest:It was like, oh, I don't need any of it.

01:18:18Guest:right i need this light you know people out all that stuff i got really really happy happier than i've ever been in my life and um worked on that project and i was moving and that's so that that ended all that for me for now i shouldn't say ended as we don't say that but you stayed in the game you stayed in the in the rooms and stuff oh yeah yeah i don't i don't go as often now because you know it's been um over 10 years for me too so i i i you know what i

01:18:42Guest:An old timer once told me, remember, it's a bridge back to life.

01:18:45Guest:Don't make AA your entire life after a certain time.

01:18:48Guest:He doesn't mean immediately.

01:18:50Marc:Sure, sure, of course, of course.

01:18:52Marc:This is over time.

01:18:52Marc:But you know, some people need it for the long haul and they keep the thing running.

01:18:56Marc:Which is great.

01:18:57Guest:And then I can go show up.

01:18:59Guest:Yeah, exactly.

01:19:00Guest:And I also do therapy and I have a great family.

01:19:03Guest:I got a lot of...

01:19:03Marc:Well, I mean, that's what's sort of amazing because, I mean, you were really, you know, it's a great story because you have a family, you have kids, you seem together, you know, your skin looks correct.

01:19:14Marc:You don't look like you did permanent damage.

01:19:17Marc:You never really stopped working, whether you like the projects or not.

01:19:20Marc:It seems like you just kept working.

01:19:22Marc:I did.

01:19:22Guest:Yeah, I got lucky.

01:19:23Guest:American Beauty is still what I get work off of.

01:19:26Guest:really i got this job at yellowstone no kidding off of american beauty yeah how so how is that possible well taylor you know i so you know when i had seen taylor's stuff and he had stuff coming out i was like we got to beg to get on one of his projects i really want to work with this guy or on something and out of the blue he came to me and asked me to do this yellowstone show and i was like well

01:19:48Guest:Yeah, but when I talked to him, he told me that it was from American Beauty when he was younger.

01:19:53Guest:I just stayed with him all these years and he always wanted to work with me.

01:19:56Guest:Oh, I see.

01:19:56Guest:Wow.

01:19:57Guest:Isn't that crazy?

01:19:58Guest:So that way, right, you made an impression.

01:20:00Guest:I made an impression.

01:20:00Marc:And now you've been doing this thing for five years?

01:20:03Guest:Yeah, five years.

01:20:04Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:20:04Guest:Five years off American Beauty.

01:20:06Guest:Yeah.

01:20:07Marc:But it's a good gig.

01:20:08Guest:You like the character and the...

01:20:09Guest:I love it.

01:20:10Guest:Well, so I got a lot of feelings about this because it is by far the hardest thing I've ever, hardest character I've ever played within the realm of acting.

01:20:19Guest:It's the hardest thing I've ever done.

01:20:21Guest:How so?

01:20:23Guest:Well, you know, first season he was not, he was sort of, it wasn't heavy.

01:20:28Guest:He's like the son.

01:20:31Guest:Yeah.

01:20:31Guest:Yeah, he's one of the sons of- Of the main rancher guy.

01:20:35Guest:The big mega rancher, John Dutton.

01:20:37Guest:And he's one of the sons of John Dutton and the lawyer who kind of keeps the ranch running from a legal perspective, also potentially a politician that could help change the rules for the ranch.

01:20:49Guest:Right.

01:20:50Guest:So that's his directive by his father.

01:20:52Guest:Yeah.

01:20:53Guest:And anyways, we got into the second season and it got heavy quick because of a lot of stuff that happens in it for Jamie, my character.

01:21:01Guest:And I realized when I started to play it that I'm gonna have to do something here that I haven't done ever before.

01:21:09Guest:It's opened myself up to just pure sadness because he's just a sad guy.

01:21:15Guest:I was like anger was playing in it and other emotions and they didn't feel quite right.

01:21:21Marc:The things that hide sadness.

01:21:23Guest:Yes, right.

01:21:24Guest:I tell people all the time, anger is not really an emotion.

01:21:26Guest:It's a reaction to sadness.

01:21:28Guest:It's a reaction to embarrassment.

01:21:29Guest:It's always a reaction.

01:21:31Marc:Shame, shame, anger.

01:21:33Marc:Anger is an all-purpose reaction.

01:21:35Marc:It's the reaction.

01:21:35Guest:Yeah, exactly.

01:21:36Guest:You can even react to things being funny.

01:21:38Guest:You like it when you're happy.

01:21:40Guest:This is fucking amazing.

01:21:41Guest:God, I love this.

01:21:43Guest:So I realized I'm gonna have to open myself up to sadness and it really dropped me into like a weird place, not weird, but like heavy place quick.

01:21:56Marc:Like why, what did it do?

01:21:58Marc:What did it open?

01:21:59Marc:What was the trauma?

01:22:00Marc:Was it the shame thing or what?

01:22:02Guest:No, I think because I have always avoided just pure sadness.

01:22:07Guest:I've dealt with it with humor or I've dealt with drugs or I dealt with it with anger, but I never just let it be.

01:22:13Guest:But you think you're a depressed guy?

01:22:15Guest:No, I think we've all got that in there.

01:22:18Guest:It's whether that becomes the prominent feeling.

01:22:20Guest:So yeah, whatever depression I had in there, yeah, it was starting to come out.

01:22:25Guest:And so it got really heavy, quick playing this character.

01:22:28Guest:And then not only that, there was complicated things about him and stuff.

01:22:31Guest:So it's been very hard to... But also very rewarding.

01:22:36Guest:I want to balance this by saying this is what I wanted, right?

01:22:39Guest:I mean, this is what I'm like... This is where I wanted to go as an actor for a long time.

01:22:43Marc:And now you've got a full story arc.

01:22:46Marc:It's not like one movie.

01:22:48Marc:No.

01:22:48Marc:It's not a one-shot deal.

01:22:49Marc:You've got to live in this guy.

01:22:50Marc:And you...

01:22:51Marc:the character evolves and changes every season.

01:22:55Guest:Almost every scene for him.

01:22:56Guest:That's what got trippy.

01:22:58Guest:There's not a lot of screen time for Jamie, but I think I'm grateful because every scene started to become some new traumatic event or some reveal of sadness or depression that he has or...

01:23:11Guest:Or whatever is broken and broken, he's broken.

01:23:13Guest:And you've got a heart.

01:23:14Guest:And he's got a heart.

01:23:15Guest:So it keeps getting shattered.

01:23:16Guest:And he's emotional.

01:23:17Marc:Yeah.

01:23:19Guest:And he deals with emotions.

01:23:20Guest:Oh, not deals with them.

01:23:21Guest:He reveals or shows and they take over him more than like the Cowboys and everyone in Montana, apparently.

01:23:28Guest:Except this guy.

01:23:29Marc:People love the show and they love all the spinoffs.

01:23:31Marc:I mean, it's huge.

01:23:32Guest:Yeah.

01:23:32Guest:Yeah, it is the biggest thing.

01:23:34Guest:It's the biggest thing I've done.

01:23:35Guest:The biggest, the most I've been recognized, I've got recognized by my voice for the first time or ever.

01:23:41Guest:It's like you're very close to doing voiceovers now.

01:23:44Guest:Come on.

01:23:44Guest:I'm just trying to get a job, by the way.

01:23:45Guest:That didn't really happen.

01:23:46Guest:You just want to do a cartoon.

01:23:47Guest:I really want to do that animal.

01:23:49Guest:I got that thing down.

01:23:50Guest:All right, so I think we did good.

01:23:53Marc:You feel good?

01:23:54Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:23:55Guest:How old are your kids?

01:23:56Guest:My kids are, my son's going to be 12 next week and my daughter's eight and they're my life, man.

01:24:02Guest:They're everything.

01:24:03Guest:I just love being a dad.

01:24:04Guest:I didn't want kids at all.

01:24:06Guest:I was not supposed to have kids.

01:24:09Guest:And then I had them.

01:24:09Guest:As soon as I knew my wife was pregnant, this is everything I ever wanted.

01:24:15Guest:It's weird.

01:24:16Guest:And I would give anything for them.

01:24:18Guest:I'd give up anything.

01:24:18Guest:I'd do anything for them.

01:24:19Marc:Well, it's good.

01:24:20Marc:Well, I mean, you already have in a way.

01:24:22Marc:I mean, it's good that you're present for this shit given where you were.

01:24:27Guest:My son is named after the person who helped me.

01:24:31Guest:So he is- The guy in Argentina?

01:24:33Marc:Yeah.

01:24:34Guest:So his name is my life line.

01:24:39Guest:Yeah.

01:24:39Guest:Beautiful.

01:24:40Guest:Good talking to you, man.

01:24:41Guest:It's great talking to you.

01:24:42Guest:I do this every day, man.

01:24:43Guest:I see why you do it.

01:24:44Guest:It's fun.

01:24:45Guest:It's like a meeting.

01:24:45Guest:Yeah.

01:24:47Guest:Or you can get in trouble.

01:24:48Guest:Exactly.

01:24:50Guest:Yeah.

01:24:50Guest:You don't want, we've talked enough.

01:24:58Marc:That was Wes Bentley who just tuning in.

01:25:00Marc:What am I, on the radio?

01:25:02Marc:Look, you can watch Yellowstone Season 5 on Paramount, new episodes on Sunday nights.

01:25:06Marc:So, you know how this goes these days.

01:25:07Marc:Just hang out a minute, will you?

01:25:11Marc:Okay, look, here's my recommendation from the archive today.

01:25:15Marc:Episode 653 with Lorne Michaels.

01:25:17Marc:It was seven years ago this week that we posted this episode.

01:25:22Marc:And look, I'd been talking about the guy my entire professional life about the audition.

01:25:27Marc:I've been talking.

01:25:27Marc:I used to compulsively talk about it or is that the right word or just I would talk about it with everyone who was on SNL.

01:25:34Marc:And, uh, and it was like the, you know, what I thought happened in that room was I was obsessed with and really believed to a certain degree.

01:25:43Marc:I wrote about it in a book and stayed with me forever.

01:25:46Marc:And then I talked to Lorne and he, and we did, we did it over two days.

01:25:51Marc:And, uh, I don't know, you know, he, he definitely spoke to it and I believed him.

01:25:58Marc:I chose to believe him.

01:26:00Marc:Listen, I came in here.

01:26:01Marc:I waited an hour or so.

01:26:03Marc:Tracy Morgan was out there waiting with me.

01:26:06Guest:Do you know what day of the week it was where we were in production?

01:26:10Marc:Maybe.

01:26:10Marc:I wish I remembered that.

01:26:12Marc:You know, I decided before I got here, I was smoking a lot of pot at the time, but I thought maybe I shouldn't smoke too much.

01:26:20Uh-huh.

01:26:20Marc:and i got here and tracy morgan was there and his hair looked very shiny the hair was in very good shape yes i waited a while and i was reading a bruce wagner book i remember and i came in here and you were had he been on stage the night that you performed who's tracy yeah i don't know if he was i mean i know that we went to um stand up new york right i remember anyways

01:26:41Marc:I come in here in my recollection.

01:26:42Marc:There were books over here.

01:26:43Marc:Uh-huh.

01:26:44Marc:Was there?

01:26:45Guest:It's probably pretty much the same as it was always.

01:26:48Marc:Right.

01:26:48Marc:Steve Higgins was there.

01:26:49Marc:I walk in and you said, how was Conan last night?

01:26:54Marc:Did they laugh?

01:26:56Marc:Did they laugh at you?

01:26:57Marc:It's better when they laugh.

01:26:59Marc:And that was nice.

01:26:59Marc:It was nice.

01:27:00Marc:I was scared.

01:27:01Marc:And you'd done Conan the Night Before.

01:27:03Marc:Right, yes.

01:27:04Marc:And then I sat down, and then you used a zoo analogy for comedians.

01:27:09Guest:Have you used that before?

01:27:11Guest:Monkeys and all that, yeah.

01:27:14Marc:Yes.

01:27:14Marc:Yeah.

01:27:15Marc:Yeah, so that's a regular thing.

01:27:17Guest:No, it wasn't a regular thing.

01:27:18Guest:It was just my sort of beginning to piece together where comedians stood in Hollywood.

01:27:22Marc:Right.

01:27:23Marc:The lions are scary.

01:27:25Guest:When you go to the zoo, the first thing you want to see is the lion because the lion is the king of the jungle and it's regal.

01:27:36Guest:Yeah.

01:27:37Guest:And the second thing you want to see are the bears because they're the strongest and the fastest.

01:27:42Guest:And the third, you want to see the monkeys because they're funny and occasionally one of them jerks off.

01:27:46Marc:Right.

01:27:47Marc:And what I said, I don't think you had added the jerk offline yet.

01:27:50Marc:Uh-huh.

01:27:50Marc:Because I said, as long as they're not throwing their shit at you.

01:27:52Marc:Yeah.

01:27:53Marc:Got nothing.

01:27:54Marc:Yeah.

01:27:54Guest:Got no laugh from you.

01:27:55Guest:Well, I would have gone softer, as you saw.

01:27:58Marc:Yeah, yeah.

01:27:58Marc:Exactly.

01:27:59Marc:And Steve Higgins was like, mm.

01:28:02Marc:It's not going well already.

01:28:05Guest:And did you know Steve before?

01:28:06Marc:Kind of.

01:28:07Marc:I met him once or twice.

01:28:07Guest:Like on the scene.

01:28:08Marc:Right.

01:28:08Marc:And then you just looked at me for a little while.

01:28:11Marc:Uh-huh.

01:28:12Marc:And Steve actually went Lauren.

01:28:15Marc:And you said, it's important to look in someone's eyes.

01:28:18Marc:You can see a lot in someone's eyes.

01:28:20Marc:And then I was trying to exude some star quality of some kind.

01:28:24Marc:Right.

01:28:24Marc:Which was not successful.

01:28:26Marc:God, you really remember this.

01:28:29Marc:Yeah.

01:28:30Marc:I remember.

01:28:31Marc:You can get every WTF episode ad-free with a WTF Plus subscription.

01:28:35Marc:Click on the link in the episode description or go to WTFPod.com and click on WTF Plus.

01:28:42Marc:On Thursday's show, I talk to Bruce Wagner, who I love.

01:28:45Marc:He's one of my literary heroes.

01:28:47Marc:I love reading his books.

01:28:49Marc:I've been with him since the first book years ago, Force Majeure, and In and Out throughout all the books.

01:28:53Marc:A very dark wizard.

01:28:55Marc:One of the true dark wizards.

01:28:59Marc:One of the great...

01:29:00Marc:Hollywood satirists and man, but I think I was able to manage the conversation this time because I really wanted, I saw, I've always seen him as this mystical wizard and I was like, where does it come from?

01:29:12Marc:I needed to know.

01:29:14Marc:And I think I got there.

01:29:16Marc:This Friday, I'm in Eugene, Oregon at the Holt Center for the Performing Arts.

01:29:19Marc:That's November 18th.

01:29:21Marc:Bend, Oregon at the Tower Theater on Saturday, November 19th.

01:29:24Marc:Asheville, North Carolina at the Orange Peel for two shows on Friday, December 2nd.

01:29:29Marc:And then Nashville, Tennessee.

01:29:31Marc:I'm at the James K. Polk Center on Saturday, December 3rd.

01:29:34Marc:And my HBO special taping is at Town Hall in New York City on Thursday, December 8th.

01:29:38Marc:There are still tickets for the second show.

01:29:41Marc:Go to WTFPod.com slash tour for all the dates and ticket info.

01:29:46Marc:Here we go.

01:29:48Marc:Some dirty Telecaster music.

01:30:03Music.

01:30:04Thank you.

01:30:28guitar solo

01:31:00guitar solo

01:31:29guitar solo

01:32:08Guest:Boomer lives.

01:32:18Guest:Monkey in La Fonda.

01:32:20Guest:Cat angels everywhere.