Episode 1382 - Quinta Brunson
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast.
Marc:Welcome to it.
Marc:How's everybody faring today?
Marc:Thursday, if you're listening to this on the day it was dropped two days after Election Day.
Marc:I'm recording this on Wednesday afternoon and I'm not honestly I only know that it didn't go as bad as was anticipated.
Marc:That's what I know.
Marc:That's the best we can hope for.
Marc:We did not defeat fascism.
Marc:We did not necessarily change the minds of many, but people showed up, voted their hearts, and it was not as bad as we thought it was going to be.
Marc:So problems remain, obviously, but something's been lifted.
Marc:I'm not...
Marc:I'm not giving up the good fight.
Marc:I'm just putting it into perspective.
Marc:I'm just contextualizing it in line with my particular life and trying to see what I do and what I don't do that could be better in light of it.
Marc:But I'm not I'm done with fucking the dread.
Marc:I am so fucking done with dread.
Marc:And it's a choice.
Marc:It's a fucking choice.
Marc:If you want, if you get juice from fear, then, you know, that's your thing.
Marc:If it's a choice you're making because you want to, then OK.
Marc:But if it's just a default setting on your particular broken vessel, then, I mean, you should probably assess it.
Marc:Who knows how long this will last?
Marc:Look, it might have something to do with the fact it rained here.
Marc:That could be all this is.
Marc:I could just be happy that it fucking rained for three days in Los Angeles and everything doesn't look like it's going to catch on fire or die.
Marc:Maybe that's helping me.
Marc:Maybe this is all a just a personal false flag of me.
Marc:Having some better perspective or acceptance around something.
Marc:Maybe this is just, hey, it rained.
Marc:And what a relief.
Marc:What a relief to go outside after three days of rain in this fucking desert hellhole and take a hike and breathe that cool, clean air and look out over the city of L.A.
Marc:from the mountain out here on the east side and see all the way to the fucking ocean and just be like this ain't so bad look at this amazing place look at this sprawling beautiful city that's not on fire and doesn't look crispy and doesn't look like everything's about to die maybe that's all that's going on but i don't think so
Marc:I didn't feel compelled.
Marc:I didn't feel compelled to watch the results at the edge of my seat like some sort of fucking speedball.
Marc:It's out of my control, and I'm glad it wasn't terrifying.
Marc:Quinta Brunson is here.
Marc:She's the creator, executive producer, writer and star of Abbott Elementary.
Marc:She just won an Emmy for her writing on the show.
Marc:We talked about where she comes from in West Philadelphia and how that's a straight line to making the show and a lot of other things.
Marc:And it's a huge surprise hit on ABC.
Marc:And it was tremendous talking to her.
Marc:So get excited.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Is everybody making Thanksgiving plans?
Marc:Is everybody making Christmas plans?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:Where are you at?
Marc:All I know is I've been touring like a motherfucker and I have been out in it doing the work and come December 8th on that day when I take my HBO special and I do both of those shows, I am done for a while.
Marc:And I'm going to regroup and rethink my life and just I'm looking forward to December to the holiday season.
Marc:I am only because I will actually not have to do anything on Thanksgiving.
Marc:I usually go down to Florida.
Marc:I'm not going to do that.
Marc:I'm going to stay in town, go to my friend's house with Kit and probably cook.
Marc:I usually go down to Florida, but just couldn't pull it off.
Marc:They didn't need me to cook this year.
Marc:So just to fly down there for a day and fly back on those two days, the busiest days of the year, couldn't do it.
Marc:I'll go see my mother in between gigs when I'm on the East Coast in the South.
Marc:That'll be nice.
Marc:It'll be more focused.
Marc:Just two days with my mother, wondering why we...
Marc:We took all that time.
Marc:No, it'll be nice.
Marc:You know, I'm happy that they're both still around.
Marc:I got to go figure out when to see my dad.
Marc:But yeah, I'm trying to figure out what to cook.
Marc:I love thinking about what to cook.
Marc:I'm going to a turkey is being taken care of.
Marc:I can do the stuffing.
Marc:I'm going to do a chess pie.
Marc:And there was talk of a brisket, talk of a barbecued brisket on Thanksgiving.
Marc:Is that even allowed?
Marc:I got to be honest with you.
Marc:Talking to Quinta Brunson was kind of great.
Marc:She's a very impressive person.
Marc:She's got a great mind.
Marc:And it was one of those conversations about a life that kind of unfolded in a way where everything fell into place.
Marc:But there were key decisions being made by a strong-willed person who
Marc:which I wasn't, certainly at her age, to know to sort of not do things and to do things that led her to where she was at.
Marc:There's no luck involved.
Marc:It was pure focus and pure skill and pure talent and timing.
Marc:But it was really a great conversation.
Marc:And Abbott Elementary is currently in season two on ABC.
Marc:You can watch past episodes on Hulu.
Marc:And this is our conversation.
Marc:I never met her before.
Marc:And it kind of got it kind of got going.
Marc:I think she was a little she didn't feel confident about doing these things up front at the top.
Marc:But we eased into it.
Marc:It was great.
Marc:This is me talking to Quinta Brunson.
Guest:what makes you anxious about a podcast too much talking too much really too much room to tell too many truths and get in trouble oh so it's uh you're a little paranoid absolutely yeah has that happened
Marc:Not yet.
Marc:Not yet.
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:But, like, I guess, you know, it's hard.
Marc:And I've noticed it's harder for women who are scrutinized differently and more.
Marc:That, you know, there's just people looking to reframe anything anybody says.
Marc:And then it just, like, becomes this quick bait.
Marc:And even if it's nothing.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Marc:So you want to go?
Marc:You just want to leave?
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:You're ready to go?
Guest:Yeah, it's tough.
Marc:Have you had enough?
Marc:It's tough.
Marc:Are you in the middle of it?
Marc:Is that why we're doing this on a Saturday?
Marc:You're in the middle of production?
Marc:Where are you at?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:What episode are you on?
Guest:We are currently filming.
Guest:Wait, are we started?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay, we started.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:We are currently filming episode 213.
Guest:We just wrapped 213.
Guest:We're going into 214.
Marc:Oh, so you're almost done?
Guest:No, we have 22 episodes this season.
Guest:Wow, so you do it old school.
Guest:Yeah, old school network TV.
Marc:22 episodes.
Marc:How many do you guys have written?
Marc:at any given point in time.
Guest:We're pretty far ahead, which are the producers.
Guest:We've worked out a system so that we were really far ahead, so that I got to see most of the season before I started filming.
Guest:Episode 218 just got written, but we're in the middle.
Guest:We just finished shooting 213, and we have 219 outlined, the story of 220, and the ideas for the other ones already formed.
Marc:So you figured out, do you know the whole arc when you start basically?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah, I do.
Guest:I did for the second season at least.
Guest:I knew where I wanted each character to end up.
Guest:I knew about like our mini arcs and knew about kind of where I wanted episodes that were less integral, like things that were more fun.
Guest:So yeah, it feels, it's helpful to know a lot of what you want it to look like.
Guest:So we're just kind of following that.
Marc:And is it all you and the thinking initially?
Marc:At the beginning?
Marc:How many of the writing staff do you have?
Guest:So we have 12 in total.
Guest:Right.
Guest:If I include the writer's PA.
Guest:If I do, which I do, he's great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But-
Guest:I definitely come in already knowing what I want the season to look like.
Guest:So I knew I wanted a charter school arc in this season.
Guest:I knew where I wanted the Janine character to wind up.
Marc:What, you're going to be competing with a charter school?
Guest:We've set up so far that there's just a charter school in the neighborhood.
Guest:It's kind of like the big bad this season.
Guest:So that was something I knew I wanted.
Yeah.
Guest:But I knew I wanted specific episodes.
Guest:We have an episode about an egg drop.
Guest:I really wanted an egg drop episode.
Guest:I just... What is that?
Guest:Egg drop?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When kids put the egg in a little basket, they have to build something strong enough to keep an egg from breaking.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You never did that in school?
Marc:You know, I don't have any recollection of partaking in school.
Guest:I understand.
Guest:I get that.
Guest:Do you?
Guest:I do.
Guest:I'm getting to the age now of...
Guest:Like, was that 07 or was that?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Was that 2010?
Guest:I can't believe I'm there already.
Marc:So how old are you?
Guest:I'm 32.
Marc:So it's weird that you're a millennial, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that whole generation is now growing up.
Marc:And this is your audience.
Marc:They have families.
Guest:Growing up if they choose to.
Guest:It's a generation that can very much make a choice to grow up or stay stunted if they want to.
Marc:Believe me, it happens in any generation.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Have you met many 60-year-old men?
Guest:That's true.
Guest:Yeah, you're right, you're right.
Marc:I think the responsibilities may have been different.
Marc:It was a different social climate when I grew up, but look at me.
Marc:I've got no kids.
Marc:I didn't do it right.
Marc:I'm just this comedian talking to people in my garage.
Guest:Or did you?
Marc:Look, I defend that all the time.
Marc:But today, or the last couple days, I'm sort of like, wow, I really fucked it up.
Guest:No way.
Guest:As a married person, I'm always like, I fully support my single friends.
Guest:I fully support someone's being single.
Marc:Oh, I tried being married twice.
Marc:Oh, you did?
Marc:You attempted.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Marc:But I don't have kids, and I had a couple marriages, but...
Marc:I think, you know, I guess we're all a little, you know, no one's perfect.
Marc:How long you been married?
Guest:Only a year and some change.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:What's the big plan?
Marc:You're going to have kids?
Guest:What's the big plan?
Guest:I want to, but I don't know when.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:I don't know when I'm going to have kids.
Marc:Where you can find the time?
Guest:Seriously.
Marc:I know.
Guest:And that shit is hard.
Guest:Like, everyone I know with a kid, that's a game changer.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's a game changer.
Guest:And I do want one, but I also love the freedom of not... It's funny.
Marc:I don't know if you're ready if you're calling them game changers.
Guest:I know.
Guest:that's why I know I'm not ready and I like sometimes I go out and I'm like that's crazy I wouldn't be able to just like go to Granville yeah if I had a child yeah I could but I'd have to be like a babysitter I have to take it with me yeah I have to put it in a seat where's your family
Guest:Philadelphia.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Too far to drop off at the grandparents, at your mom's.
Guest:And I'm like, I have to get a nanny.
Guest:And I'm like, that means I have to be like really rich.
Guest:That sucks.
Marc:It's just so many things.
Marc:That might happen.
Marc:It seems like you're on the right path.
Marc:But then it's.
Marc:You're on the nanny path.
Guest:But then it's a change.
Guest:And it's like, well, now I have to keep making money because now I have this kid I have to take care of.
Marc:You got to feed that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It increases your nut with a living thing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Now I have the freedom to go bankrupt.
Guest:But if I have a kid, I don't have that freedom.
Marc:Oh, the pressure's on.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You got to work for that kid.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, you got it all figured out.
Marc:You understand the options.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Philly?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I like Philly.
Marc:Do you?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I love Philly.
Guest:I wish I could live there.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Maybe you will be able to.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I don't think L.A.
Marc:is long for, you know.
Guest:Where are you from?
Marc:I grew up in New Mexico.
Marc:My family's from Jersey, though, but New Mexico.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:Wild.
Marc:Yeah, Albuquerque.
Guest:It's not my podcast, but what was that like?
Guest:I'm just so curious.
Marc:In Albuquerque?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:My only reference point is High School Musical was filmed in New Mexico.
Guest:That's it.
Marc:So it was Breaking Bad.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:All of it.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, they film a lot of stuff there, but that was long after I left.
Marc:I mean, I like New Mexico.
Marc:It was interesting.
Marc:It was beautiful.
Marc:It's kind of a rough town, I guess, but it was a nice place to grow up because it was certainly not a big city, but big enough to feel like you were in a city, but pretty towny.
Guest:I'm going to go there one day.
Marc:You will.
Marc:You're going to shoot something there.
Marc:You're going to shoot your big movie.
Guest:What is this plan you have right now for me?
Marc:It's just a feeling I have.
Guest:I'm tired as hell.
Marc:You must be.
Marc:I am, yeah.
Marc:So I think it's kind of interesting that you came up in a business that I know nothing about.
Marc:I pay lip service to people on YouTube or people who make their break.
Marc:Well, I understand the internet.
Marc:But when I was coming up, network sitcoms were still something you got a pilot for, but there was only one avenue in.
Marc:They saw you do stand-up, you pitched an idea, and then you got your money.
Guest:Yep.
Marc:But you came up totally differently.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you succeeded at that.
Marc:There's only a few of you that seem to have come up through the channels that you came up in to really land real show business success.
Marc:Isn't that right?
Guest:Yeah, I think for me, the internet just felt like another stage.
Guest:Because despite my career, I was actually quite anti-internet as far as...
Guest:advancing in my career like I thought yeah when I looked down on YouTube I oh so you're old enough to do that yes I was like right youtubers are the worst I was like YouTube is the bottom of the barrel I didn't want to I didn't want to have like I didn't want to be a youtuber I was like that's not they're not doing anything but I did understand that eventually
Guest:it was another stage and I started using it.
Guest:But at the same time that was like, when I started using the internet, I was just making stuff for my friends.
Guest:But the inclination wasn't to have it, you know.
Guest:Break.
Guest:Break, yeah.
Guest:Honestly, I started doing standup and I was doing improv because I felt that's where the real.
Marc:That's where it happens.
Guest:That's where it happens.
Marc:So wait, how'd you come up though?
Marc:Like, so did you start and like, what was your family life like?
Guest:So in Philly, I grew up in Philly and I just went to regular old public school.
Marc:How many kids?
Guest:Five of us.
Guest:And I'm the last one.
Marc:That's why you're named five.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:And that's why.
Guest:Which I love.
Guest:The freedom in that.
Guest:My brothers and sisters, they're named Prince of Africa.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:The joy of God.
Guest:And my name is just like a number.
Marc:Five.
Marc:Love it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Freedom.
Marc:Are you the last one?
Guest:Yeah, I'm the last one.
Guest:And then I went to school for broadcast telecommunications.
Guest:I don't know why that was.
Marc:In college?
Marc:In college.
Marc:But when you're growing up with five siblings and you're the youngest one, what did they all end up doing?
Marc:My oldest sister?
Marc:A lot of hand-me-downs and that kind of shit?
Guest:Kind of, yeah.
Guest:They were so far away from me.
Marc:Oh, age-wise?
Marc:Age-wise.
Guest:My closest sibling is eight years away.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:So you were like alone.
Yeah.
Guest:In a way, I kind of was like this weird only child, but had these older siblings I was super close to in very unique ways.
Guest:Like my oldest sister, she did my hair.
Guest:She owns hair salons.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:How old is she?
Guest:She is 45.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Yeah, 45.
Guest:And my other sister, Kiana, she braided my hair.
Guest:And they all had different comedy was definitely the way in with them.
Guest:And they all had different senses of humor.
Marc:Everyone was a comedy fan?
Marc:Everyone was a comedy fan.
Marc:Your folks, too?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But for them, it was the Andy Griffith show.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah, and like...
Guest:They always showed me black and whites, black and white shows.
Guest:Right.
Guest:The show called The Real McCoys that my mom loved.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Stuff like that I got from them.
Guest:Mary Tyler Moore, you know, all of that.
Guest:And then my oldest sister.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She loved, well, everyone loved Martin, but she loved, like, specifically Martin and In Living Color.
Guest:My other sister, Kiana, she loved, like, Conan and Friends and...
Guest:So I got that late night, the late night talk show host and friends kind of came from her.
Guest:Then my mom and dad also loved Frasier.
Marc:What'd they do, your folks?
Guest:My mom was a teacher.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And my dad managed parking lots.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In Philly.
Guest:In Philly.
Guest:Yep.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:A teacher of what age?
Marc:Kindergarteners.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, that's nice.
Guest:Yeah, it's really nice.
Guest:And yeah, my dad just managed parking lots.
Guest:But they both had background in the arts.
Guest:My mom was a dancer and my dad was like a gymnast.
Guest:A gymnast?
Guest:Yeah, he was a full-blown gymnast, an acrobat.
Guest:Like, was in the circus.
Guest:He was in the circus?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:He has...
Guest:Eight brothers.
Marc:Are they all circus family?
Guest:They were at a point.
Guest:They all tumbled in a circus together, which is so funny to me.
Guest:I think it's hilarious.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:Isn't that cool?
Marc:What circus?
Marc:There's only a couple.
Marc:Was it Barnum & Bailey or the Big Apple?
Marc:I think it was Barnum & Bailey.
Marc:It was Barnum & Bailey?
Marc:Yeah, Barnum & Bailey.
Marc:Did they have a name, like the Tumbling?
Guest:You know what?
Marc:I never asked him.
Marc:I should have asked him that.
Marc:The Tumbling Brunsons?
Marc:I never asked him.
Guest:This is a way to make money.
Guest:Sure, man.
Marc:It's like vaudeville or something, but it's pretty specific.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Because if there was eight of them and they're all tumbling, that had to be a big top attraction.
Marc:They just came out one after the other and started doing the flips.
Guest:I think it was maybe only three of them that were in the... Yeah, because they...
Marc:Were your grandparents circus people?
Guest:No.
Guest:I only have one living grandparent most of my life, so I didn't really know them like that.
Guest:But no, I think it was just some way to make money.
Marc:Tumblr.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Are there pictures of the crew up on the wall or anything, or is it just part of his past?
Guest:It's part of his past.
Marc:Just the circus Tumblr past.
Guest:You know?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Show business, though.
Guest:Our family doesn't take enough pictures.
Guest:I'm starting to realize I do not take enough.
Marc:I don't take hardly any.
Marc:I take some of myself, but, you know, I mean.
Marc:You do?
Marc:Well, yeah, who else am I going to take pictures of?
Marc:It's me and my cats.
Marc:You know, what am I supposed to do?
Marc:I mean, I think if you have a family, maybe you take pictures of them.
Marc:Yet another incentive for the pro-baby.
Marc:Pro-baby movement.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I need to take pictures more.
Guest:I don't have a photographic.
Guest:It's so easy now.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And I don't take selfies anymore.
Guest:You don't?
Guest:I'm not mad at that.
Marc:Is that over?
Guest:I think that's over for me.
Guest:There are like no pictures of myself on my phone.
Guest:I see myself.
Guest:It's like enough.
Guest:I don't need to also take selfies.
Marc:I guess that's true.
Marc:You're like the star of your own show.
Guest:It's a lot.
Guest:And editing is like, okay, I get it.
Marc:So wait, so now, did I read that you guys were Jehovah's Witnesses?
Guest:We were.
Marc:And what does that entail?
Marc:Is that the one where you can't dance?
Marc:The one?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:The whole religion is the tail and footloose.
Guest:No, you can dance.
Guest:They actually love to dance.
Guest:They all love to- I'm sorry.
Marc:I mean, I'm not trying to be flip.
Guest:No, it's funny.
Marc:It's just one of those religions where, you know, I've gotten the magazine occasionally.
Guest:Very, yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The Watchtower.
Marc:Yeah, the Watchtower magazine.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And everybody seems very pleasant.
Guest:Yeah, it's a very pleasant religion.
Guest:Very strict, though.
Guest:It's a really, really strict religion.
Marc:Around what?
Guest:So they don't celebrate holidays.
Marc:They don't celebrate birthdays.
Marc:So you can dance.
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:I got that confused with no dancing.
Guest:Because in a lot of ways, it kind of- Same.
Guest:It implies that?
Guest:But it's funny because they actually love to dance.
Guest:They love to party.
Guest:They do.
Guest:But it's just like religion-restricted partying.
Marc:Oh, so it's only Jesus partying.
Guest:No, but at weddings, they go hard.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:That's one of the few things you get to do is weddings is a big deal.
Guest:Watch when you can... Let loose.
Guest:Watch people get a little too drunk.
Guest:You're like, oh, look at you.
Guest:But yeah, parents are still Jehovah's Witnesses.
Guest:I'm not, but... How do you opt out?
Marc:How do you...
Guest:How do you opt out?
Guest:I eventually was like, hey, this isn't working anymore.
Guest:I had to break up with the religion.
Guest:I was like, what I want to be and what I want to do doesn't work with this anymore.
Marc:Do you remember the moment and what you were doing?
Guest:I think I just couldn't keep lying to my mom.
Guest:I'm very honest with her, and I wanted to be honest in telling her that this is not a one foot in, one foot out.
Guest:Both feet are fully out, and I need to let you know that I'm not.
Guest:a member of this religion anymore.
Guest:And I'm sorry that might break your heart, but I want us to be able to be good and honest with each other.
Guest:I don't want to lie to you.
Guest:So to move forward, I need to tell you that I don't want to be in this religion anymore.
Guest:And that was hard, but we were good.
Guest:And I think our relationship is way stronger than it ever would have been if I remained a Jehovah's Witness.
Marc:Or remained a liar.
Guest:Yeah, it remained a liar ultimately.
Guest:And I'm not, like, lying was messing with me.
Guest:It was not fun.
Guest:So, yeah.
Marc:So she respects it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And was there a transition to that?
Marc:Was she ever sort of like, well, maybe you should, you know.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, she's still a try every now and then.
Guest:And there's an event that all Jehovah's Witnesses, even if you were like an ex-Jehovah's Witness, you still go to the memorial, which is like the memorial of Jesus Christ, which is around Easter time for Christians or whatever.
Guest:I still go to that.
Marc:It's just a nice community thing.
Marc:A family thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Everybody else in the fam still in?
Guest:No.
Guest:It's one sister still left standing.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So no real religion anymore?
Guest:No, I'm agnostic.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I'm just like fully agnostic.
Marc:Yeah, you're focusing on other things.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:In a pinch.
Guest:But very spiritual.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Like, you know, I pray.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Just not affiliated with any religion as of now.
Marc:I'm not particularly affiliated with God, but I'll pray occasionally.
Yeah.
Guest:Do you, are you, so you're not an atheist?
Marc:I don't think so.
Marc:I mean, yes, I think I am, yeah.
Marc:You think you are.
Marc:Yeah, I don't believe in God.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But I do believe in, you know, the power of prayer in a way.
Marc:In terms of at least acknowledging that you're powerless and you aren't.
Marc:in total control of things.
Marc:Like there's something you can surrender to that doesn't have to be God.
Marc:Obviously, there's many things, most things are out of our control.
Marc:So in order to accept that, either you have to be a control freak or somewhat spiritual.
Mm-hmm.
Guest:Yeah, I get that.
Guest:I think I don't believe in God in the way that we perceive, that most cultures perceive him to be.
Guest:I think it's like really in people.
Guest:I think when someone does like a good thing, it's something that makes me be like, okay, there's something afoot.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, it's interesting because, and I was thinking about this today, actually, just about the nature of how divided everything is and when you're on social media, how awful it really is and how it seems that people are just full of anonymous hatred and contempt.
Marc:But generally, when it comes right down to it, if there's people around and something is going wrong or someone needs help, people help them.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Almost impulsively.
Guest:And there is something that moment to me is God.
Guest:And it's like that.
Guest:That is the simplicity of like what it means to if I kind of feel like if everyone believed in that all the time a little bit more than the world would inherently be.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Get out of your head, get into the present, engage with other people.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So there you are.
Marc:So how old were you when you cut loose from the job?
Guest:I was out here probably like 22, 23.
Marc:Oh, so later.
Marc:So you go to college and you major in the broadcasting.
Marc:What happens there?
Marc:I mean, do you start doing things?
Guest:Yeah, but I wasn't owning it.
Guest:I mean, I started out majoring in advertising because I really think I knew I wanted to be in TV or making TV shows.
Guest:But because I was sold Jehovah's Witness, I was like, oh, I'm never going to get to do that.
Guest:That's of Satan.
Guest:So I'll do advertising.
Marc:Wait, wait, explain that to me.
Marc:TV's of Satan?
Guest:Yeah, it was like, oh, as a Jehovah's Witness, you get warned so much about the world, the outside world, and Hollywood, and TV, and it's bad, all bad.
Guest:So I was like, I probably will never do that.
Guest:But advertising seems fun.
Guest:Maybe I can make a little M&M's commercial and get my art out through that.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:But it seems if you really break it down, if there's a Satan, it's advertising.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:So I learned that immediately.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like in the first semester, I was like, oh, this is don't want to do this.
Guest:So manipulative.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's kind of shamelessly Satan.
Guest:Shamelessly.
Guest:And that was kind of good to see the face of Satan that clearly.
Guest:So I was like, I don't want to do that.
Guest:So then I moved over to broadcast telecommunications.
Marc:It's a settler Satan.
Guest:Yeah, and I was like, okay, this is about the business, which was cool.
Guest:I'm happy I did that, actually, because it was nice to learn about the business of TV.
Marc:Right.
Marc:What did you learn at that college that stuck with you?
Guest:Stuff that I, for instance, just how TV works, like how networks work.
Guest:Streaming wasn't even a thing then, but how network and cable and advertising's place and all of it.
Marc:How do you work with Satan without completely being Satan?
Marc:Becoming Satan, yes.
Guest:I'm like, this church.
Guest:And that was good because I think a lot of people who...
Guest:Want to make television never get that.
Guest:You know, I think a lot of people become writers and they go to school for writing, etc.
Guest:But they don't get the business behind it.
Guest:And I think it's cool to know both.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know where you're trying to sell a show to and why and where what you want to do fits.
Guest:At the end of the day, it is a business.
Guest:This is...
Marc:Well, the earlier you learn that, the better.
Marc:And also, like, I didn't know.
Marc:Because a lot of people just come out here and it's like, where does TV start?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:When do I start TV?
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:So it was really helpful to know all that stuff.
Guest:And then started taking an acting class.
Guest:In college?
Guest:In college.
Guest:I was like, damn, I really like this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it wasn't quite acting.
Guest:I was like, I really love comedy.
Guest:Like, I...
Guest:And I always had, but then it was like, but I really want to go more that direction than this dramatic shit we're doing in acting class.
Guest:I like comedy.
Marc:Oh, you were in a regular acting class?
Guest:Yeah, I was taking an acting class in college.
Marc:Did you do some monologues?
Marc:Did you play?
Marc:Yep, monologues.
Marc:Serious shit?
Guest:Stretching like a tiger.
Marc:Oh, you did some of that?
Guest:I never got to that point because I didn't want to audition for a play.
Guest:I was like, I'm not doing that shit, honestly.
Guest:That's how I knew I wasn't into it.
Marc:But did you cry and yell?
Guest:No, because I wasn't trying to... No crying and yelling.
Guest:So I didn't do that.
Guest:But I had a boyfriend at the time who was in Chicago.
Guest:And I don't know.
Guest:I was like...
Guest:reading Tina Fey's book, watching SNL, and finding out, I'm like, damn, all these people went to this place called Second City.
Guest:So there is a place where these people go.
Marc:They're not just... People you like, people you respect, people who are funny.
Guest:And at the time, I'm like, oh, so it's a little hub they go to.
Guest:But it's like, oh, no, these are communities of... So I decided to take a class at the Second City and stay with my boyfriend in Chicago.
Guest:And then that's when I was like, okay, I can make...
Guest:I don't have to run away from this.
Guest:There's a community here.
Guest:There's people who care about the depths of comedy in the way that I do.
Guest:And that kind of was the turning point of me being like, I want to.
Marc:Was that a summer?
Guest:It was a winter course I took.
Guest:And then I kept going back to take more spring courses.
Guest:I would take them whenever I had breaks at school.
Guest:So winter break, spring break in the summer.
Marc:When did you just go fuck school?
Marc:Or did you finish?
Guest:I didn't finish.
Guest:So my junior year, yeah, I got just basically really depressed from a breakup with that boyfriend.
Marc:The Chicago guy.
Marc:But it didn't ruin Chicago for you.
Guest:Didn't ruin Chicago for me.
Marc:That's good.
Guest:It was very good, but I just kind of stopped going to school.
Guest:I didn't drop out on purpose.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I just... Depressed.
Guest:Yeah, and I had done that before.
Guest:I had done in ninth grade.
Guest:I wasn't depressed then, but I had kind of a traumatic thing happen with a friend, and I was like, yeah, all right, I'm done.
Marc:Tragedy?
Guest:Just like a traumatic fight.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, like I had a friend who we got in a fight, and I was just like, all right.
Marc:Ninth grade.
Guest:Tenth grade.
Marc:Tenth grade.
Marc:And just kind of traumatic.
Guest:Yeah, but as I was a kid, I wasn't identifying it as that.
Guest:Best friend, though.
Guest:Right, and we didn't have the language that we have now to identify all those things.
Guest:So I didn't know I was experiencing trauma.
Guest:It was just like, that really sucked.
Marc:Did you guys ever make it right?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:We did.
Guest:We did.
Guest:I reached out to her.
Guest:I wanted to write about the fight we had in my book.
Guest:She didn't want me to, so I didn't.
Guest:In the memes book?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What'd she say?
Guest:No, I can't talk about it.
Guest:She didn't want me to, so I didn't.
Guest:But yeah, I had this fight, and I just stopped going to school.
Guest:I was still getting straight A's.
Marc:Are you guys okay, though, now?
Marc:Yes, we're good.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Didn't want the story told.
Guest:Yes, that's okay.
Guest:And then same thing happened in college.
Guest:It's just like, okay, traumatic thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I wasn't willing to say that.
Guest:I wasn't willing to say that my heart was broken so bad that I was just like, okay, I'm going to go.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I feel like going to class.
Guest:I'm going to smoke this bong I made.
Marc:You made a bong.
Marc:I made a bong.
Marc:Where did you make the bong?
Guest:In my college apartment.
Marc:Oh, not like a ceramic thing?
Guest:Oh, no, no, no, no.
Guest:This was a Coke bottle.
Okay.
Guest:It's a smart water bottle and foil.
Guest:Okay, okay.
Guest:No, and just.
Marc:But that's interesting, because that sensitivity to that, that something can be so, can kind of throw you off that much.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's emotional.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because you get very attached to people.
Guest:Yeah, I guess so.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Interesting.
Marc:crazy to think that um that was enough to make me fall out of school but at some point you must have figured out how to compartmentalize because you absolutely you have a lot of jobs so like because of at that time like if the heartbreak was gonna just in you know kind of ruin everything in your head how'd you scramble back how'd you figure out how to you know kind of like not let that happen i think
Guest:I started to realize a pattern, like letting guys or close relationships really... And I don't regret any of it.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:But I did realize a pattern of just letting other people have the keys to the car emotionally.
Marc:Yeah, I think codependency, I think, is what it's called.
Guest:Yeah, like just emotionally they...
Guest:got to run shit, and I just was like, I can't do this anymore.
Guest:There was a guy I dated out here who I really liked, but I had so many good things going for me, and I think that was the turning point.
Guest:I liked him so much, believe I loved him, but I was like, I can't do this anymore because now I have stuff I can't mess up.
Guest:Now I'm an adult.
Guest:When I was in college,
Guest:I shouldn't have done it, but I was like, I can get away with this.
Guest:High school, I could get away with that.
Marc:You weren't thinking about that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But now I'm like, I can't get away with this anymore.
Guest:I'm grown.
Guest:I have to.
Marc:But did you realize when you were with that dude that it was the same thing?
Marc:I did.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I think I finally did.
Guest:I was like.
Marc:So it was practical.
Marc:You're like, I can't.
Marc:Is this worth it?
Guest:No.
Guest:I think that was the start of my practicality in becoming a
Marc:That's good that it happens like that.
Marc:It wasn't like some big recovery process.
Marc:No.
Guest:It was impractical.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:If anything, now I think I'm like... People are a little...
Guest:fascinated by my ability to compartmentalize.
Guest:I don't have a choice what to say.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:There's too much on the line now.
Marc:When you go to Chicago, when you go back after you break up, after you leave school, do you go all the way through Second City?
Guest:No, I just was taking classes.
Guest:I was taking classes
Marc:So you didn't do the road show?
Marc:You didn't do the whole thing?
Guest:No.
Guest:That's why I can't claim it like that.
Guest:I wasn't in the conservatory.
Marc:But you learned.
Guest:I did.
Guest:And at school, that space kind of changed my life.
Guest:Just seeing people work in the field.
Guest:I'd seen Keegan Michael Key for the first time just on stage one night.
Guest:My teacher, the teacher I had there, she was...
Guest:This was her community.
Guest:These were people.
Guest:She wrote on SNL.
Guest:It was like, just be in that environment.
Marc:You do learn that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Unlike, you know, I came up through comedy, and I've talked about this before, but, you know, sketch and your generation of people that it was really about sketch, and it's all about collaboration, and it's all about, you know, coming up together and writing and, you know, coming up with ideas collaboratively.
Guest:which is the world that I appreciated and I think that's why I was so anti-YouTube.
Guest:It was so singular to me in the way that I was seeing it.
Marc:But also there was like, I assume that, not unlike me, that there was a celebration of marginally talented people that people related to, but it's sort of like devoid of craft.
Guest:yes and I loved craft you know like craft was really important to me and that was lacking in that space to me I mean so after you how do you move how do you get from Chicago what happens next so I go back and forth from Chicago to Philly for a little while are your parents supportive or are they like what do you do no they don't even know I'm going to Chicago first of all really they think you're at college yeah they thought I was at college didn't know about the guy either
Guest:No, not to that extent.
Guest:That's how I say I had to be a liar a lot.
Guest:Eventually it got old.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Oh, this is before you shut the Jehovah's Witnesses down.
Marc:Yeah, way before.
Marc:Oh, man.
Marc:So that added to the depression.
Guest:Definitely.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:But once again.
Marc:Because you had nowhere to turn.
Guest:Once again, I had no word for depression.
Marc:I had no... But the heartbreak, though, it came to be like if you could go to your parents or somebody as siblings or whatever, you just went to your bong that you made.
Guest:I only just went to my bong.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And my friends were very like, they knew the depth of it, but we were all so young.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Who's going to help you?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Like, you know, fuck that guy.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:But I was like hurting.
Guest:But no, so I go back and forth from Chicago.
Guest:Then in Philly, I got a job and I was like, OK, I'm going to move to L.A.
Guest:And I had had a job.
Guest:I worked at Apple, which was good money at the time.
Guest:I was making $16 an hour, which was good money.
Guest:And I started, I just came out to LA for a little test run.
Guest:I was like, I want to see how.
Marc:Do you have friends out here?
Guest:Yes, I had a friend, Brittany, out here.
Guest:I had a friend, Andrew Reynolds.
Guest:His brother, Adam Reynolds, worked at Comedy Central.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And I went to Second City out here.
Marc:You met them in Chicago, these people?
Guest:No, I met them at Temple.
Guest:Andrew, I met at Temple.
Marc:Oh, that's where you went to college?
Guest:Yeah, Brittany was my old dance school teacher who I was still cool with, so I stayed with her on her floor for like a month.
Guest:A month?
Guest:She was so kind.
Guest:Her studio apartment, she let me.
Guest:That's nice.
Guest:This annoying young person on her floor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I was taking second city classes in and Andrew got me a job as a PA for one day on Key & Peele, which changed my life.
Guest:How so?
Guest:It was like I'm on Key & Peele.
Marc:And you saw how it worked.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was the first episode of it ever.
Guest:And it was like, fuck, I'm here.
Guest:This is possible.
Guest:I love this.
Guest:And then he also got me a job as a PA on a Donald Glover music video.
Marc:He got some good PA jobs.
Marc:When I did PA work when I first came out here, I was doing a kid's music video shoot at Circus Vargas.
Marc:It's the worst.
Marc:No.
Marc:I didn't have any connections.
Marc:I was out in the valley somewhere where this circus was parked.
Guest:Did you go to college?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Where'd you go?
Marc:Boston University.
Guest:And you didn't have no connections?
Marc:No, I didn't know about show business.
Marc:I didn't understand anything.
Marc:I just knew I wanted to be a comic somehow.
Marc:And the way you did that was you just went to the comedy store and tried to figure out how to move in.
Guest:I wanted to be a comic until I was like...
Guest:I can't do this.
Guest:I'm not built for this.
Marc:Not in any way, shape, or form.
Marc:Did you do it?
Marc:Yeah, I was good.
Marc:You did it out here?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:So you came out here, you get the PA gigs.
Guest:I got the PA gigs, blah, blah, blah.
Guest:I'm doing improv.
Marc:But you're not doing stand-up?
Guest:No, not yet.
Guest:I stayed away from stand-up for a very long time.
Marc:You're doing improv?
Guest:Doing improv.
Marc:At Second City, Huron.
Guest:Second City, IOS.
Marc:On Hollywood Boulevard.
Guest:Right.
Guest:UCB.
Guest:Doing the little rounds and thinking my improv troupe's going to be the one to take on.
Guest:But that's later.
Guest:That's later.
Guest:So then I go back from, I stayed out here for a month.
Guest:Then I go back to Philly.
Guest:I was like, okay, I'm definitely moving to LA.
Guest:That was the best.
Guest:I worked.
Guest:I lived.
Guest:I had a good time.
Guest:Come back out to...
Guest:to LA I'm gonna move out here right no support from my parents other than I wish you well call us if you need anything but we don't have anything so don't wow if you need to call us come back yeah yeah yeah move out here
Guest:I would work to transfer my job from Apple, just start doing improv around the city.
Marc:Did you do a job at Apple here?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Oh, that's nice.
Guest:It was very nice.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:The whole point of me getting that job was so that I could transfer to LA.
Guest:Once I found that out, I was like- At the Apple store?
Guest:Yeah, at the Apple store.
Marc:Which one?
Guest:Century City.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:I worked there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so then-
Guest:It's like a year out here of just doing improv, making money.
Guest:Friends?
Guest:I had friends.
Marc:Making friends?
Guest:I had friends, a lot of friends that actually moved to Philly at the same time.
Guest:And I was starting to make a lot of friends through like, you know, improv world and then other people in LA.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And like downtown, like the downtown scene, comedy friends that were in improv and some of them did stand up.
Guest:And then that's when- Anyone I know?
Guest:Yeah, probably.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:Are they big now?
Marc:Who's hip from your crew?
Guest:Who is hip from my crew?
Guest:I'd rather not.
Guest:You know, people.
Marc:What do you mean?
Guest:Sam J. Oh, yeah.
Guest:Sam was in New York, but I met her via other people.
Marc:She's good.
Marc:I've talked to her.
Guest:Yeah, you have on the show Sam, Chris.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Chris Redd.
Guest:Gerard, honestly, Gerard was like was just starting to like.
Marc:Out here when you met him out here.
Guest:Yeah, he was like just starting to blow up like at the little place that I go to the open mic called the Improv Space.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't even know if that still exists anymore.
Guest:It was on UCLA's campus.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:He was the one that everyone's like, oh, he's about to pop.
Guest:He's about to blow up.
Marc:Yeah, I remember when that happened.
Marc:That momentum was happening.
Guest:That was around the time that I started Stand Up, which was... So anyway, I'm doing improv for a year, and then Instagram video comes out.
Guest:Like I said, I was anti-internet before that.
Guest:I wasn't really about...
Marc:But you were on Instagram.
Marc:Early on.
Guest:Because that was when you just had your Instagram account.
Guest:You couldn't become famous or anything like that.
Marc:It was just a new thing.
Marc:It was just a new thing.
Guest:And then they had video.
Guest:And I just put up a video of something silly that wound up going viral.
Guest:And then I like...
Guest:serialized it, and they kept going viral, but I wasn't... What was it?
Guest:It was just... First one was just a silly video where I tried to, like, make my butt clap and couldn't do it.
Guest:And the second one was this thing called The Girl Who's Never Been on a Nice Date, which was just about a girl who's, like, super excited about everything the guy's buying her at the movie theater.
Guest:And these things were...
Guest:They were just going viral.
Guest:And at the time, it wasn't easy to go viral on Instagram.
Guest:Like, you couldn't share a clip the way you can now.
Guest:You had to, like, physically tell someone about it.
Guest:Not even sure you could at the person on the thing.
Guest:And that changed my life.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, that's when I was like, oh, shit.
Guest:Like, I started, like...
Guest:You know, people then knew me for this comedy thing I was doing.
Guest:So that was like a changing.
Marc:So it's interesting how this stuff works in terms of like the platform and even like with podcasting when I started is that if you're there at the ground floor somehow and you start because I imagine that your work helped define their platform.
Guest:Yeah, it did.
Guest:It did.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:And then they realize that this is a thing that people can do and we can expand this.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:Mm hmm.
Marc:And you felt that happen?
Guest:100%.
Guest:All of a sudden, because this was before the monetization of the whole platform.
Marc:And they just wanted people to join it.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:And then all of a sudden, it was a shift in what was possible with it.
Guest:Did they contact you?
Guest:Yeah, I had gone to like a little thing and I was like, well, I don't want to.
Guest:I still didn't want it.
Guest:I was like, what I want to do is be a stage performer.
Guest:My goal was still to be like, well, I want to make TV or I want to.
Guest:This is still not what I want to do.
Guest:It's just nice that it's happening and I can make some money off of it.
Marc:But I was like, how are you making money off?
Guest:I was like selling T-shirts with little phrases.
Marc:The date thing?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:What was that called again?
Guest:The girl's never been on a nice day.
Marc:Now, did that become like a real series of some kind?
Guest:Yeah, I just serialized it on the platform.
Guest:On Instagram.
Guest:But I was able to sell t-shirts and like make a lot of money.
Marc:You did?
Guest:Yeah, I was able to quit my job at Apple.
Guest:For merch?
Guest:Yeah, for merch.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:All right.
Guest:And then it became appearances, but I was like, I'm not this person.
Guest:I don't want to show up to a club and say- With your t-shirts?
Guest:Yeah, or like people are like, the girl from Instagram, say it.
Guest:Go ahead, say your phrase.
Guest:And I'm like, that's not me.
Marc:But you tried it?
Guest:I tried it once and I was like, this is not for me.
Guest:Like at a comedy club?
Guest:No, like at a college like homecoming.
Marc:Oh, the worst.
Marc:The worst.
Marc:Oh my God.
Marc:So that's like, you know, they don't even know really why you're there necessarily.
Marc:And you're kind of standing there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you just get paid.
Guest:You know, you get paid like $10,000 to show up.
Guest:And I was like, I don't want to get paid.
Marc:I got to be honest.
Marc:Colleges are terrible.
Guest:I don't know how you guys do it.
Marc:I don't do it.
Guest:When you did it.
Marc:I was never the top of the list.
Marc:I was a little too angry and weird, but I did them and they were just always like, they're awful, man.
Guest:And so to avoid that, I was like, I don't want to do that.
Guest:My manager was like, I really think you should try stand up because you don't like showing up people.
Guest:And he was like, you do like craft and there's a craft to stand up and you would be good at it.
Guest:So I tried stand up for the first time.
Marc:Good manager.
Guest:Who's the manager?
Guest:He's very good.
Guest:His name's Adam Siegel.
Guest:He's very good.
Guest:I've known him since college.
Guest:He's at Authentic.
Guest:Shout out.
Marc:Free advertising for Adam Siegel.
Guest:But I started doing stand-up.
Guest:I started at the improv space, and I was good, and I kept doing it.
Guest:And I was just like, oh, and I started doing, you know.
Marc:Writing bits, telling stories.
Marc:What was the angle?
Marc:Characters?
Guest:No, straight stand up.
Guest:Like I was very inspired by like, yeah, jokes, like dried, you know, canceled comedians.
Guest:But, you know, I was inspired by that.
Guest:Yeah, straight up jokes and then a little slice of life jokes.
Marc:So you were able to.
Marc:Well, that helped you do the writing.
Guest:Yes, for sure.
Guest:I'm happy I did stand up for that.
Marc:I mean, like that's like most of the people I started out with became writers.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I started doing, you know, I would get paid to show up to do that, but I didn't feel as though I was I respected stand up.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So did you feel like one of those people that was just.
Marc:The people that we resent?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:She's just the Instagram person.
Guest:Yeah, I did feel like one of those people, honestly, because I was like, okay, I have the ability to show up and be paid, but I'm not as good at this craft yet.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I thought I was good at it, but I was going to the comedy store every night and watching people be good at it.
Guest:I had seen you there.
Guest:I had seen people.
Guest:I was like, these are people who are good at this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I am not that yet.
Guest:All I have is the name, so I can be paid for my name.
Guest:And I had a problem with that.
Guest:I didn't like that.
Guest:I did it for a little while.
Guest:I was, like, finding my place in stand-up.
Guest:Like, I was doing all the clubs, doing all the places, did the festivals.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I was, like, I don't like touring.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't like going places by myself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And ultimately, I didn't really like stand-up world.
Guest:I didn't like being out until the wee hours of the night waiting to go up on stage.
Guest:I didn't love the culture.
Guest:I didn't.
Guest:I was like, I'd rather not.
Guest:And I just want to actually create television.
Guest:So that kind of helped me to really know where I wanted to be.
Marc:Well, it's interesting because you knew that all along.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:And I imagine, you know, after like just the way things fell together in your mind, just from me talking to you for this short amount of time that, you know, you do you see how Key and Peele works.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you're in this and you see the response you get on Instagram, which was a fluke.
Marc:And, you know, you don't want to live a disingenuous life or be resented for a skill set that you, you know, are pretending to have.
Guest:Or I didn't want to resent myself.
Guest:It was about like how other people felt about it and how it was me.
Guest:But you knew.
Guest:I had this genuine care for craft that wasn't inherent to.
Guest:And people can there are people who still now can be like, oh, the Internet.
Guest:And it's like, you don't know you're wrong.
Guest:But it's I couldn't be wrong about myself.
Guest:I didn't want to.
Marc:But what you ultimately end up with is a very sort of practical way of writing jokes, which is what fuels almost all television.
Marc:So whether you like stand-up or not, to sit down and write jokes is the job.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then you just got to make stories up.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So after the date thing, what's the next series?
Marc:How do you start to build the ability to do stories?
Yeah.
Guest:So I was able to
Guest:You know, I was writing pilots to sell.
Guest:I was writing stories.
Guest:I was writing spec scripts.
Marc:I was getting... For shows existing already?
Marc:Like what?
Guest:Like I wrote a spec for like New Girl just to have in my, you know... That was the one that you thought you needed?
Marc:New Girl was a good one?
Marc:Yeah, it was.
Guest:I was like, yeah, this is tight.
Guest:This is what I want to do.
Guest:And then I had written my own pilot and stuff, you know, the way people do.
Marc:For a show based with you starring?
Marc:A vehicle?
Marc:No, no, no, no.
Marc:Just an idea.
Marc:What was that one?
Guest:That was about, I was young, so I was like so silly now, but it was about a girl who basically lost her big job and had to go back to her hometown and work at her father's copy machine.
Guest:That's so funny.
Guest:It was cute.
Guest:It was really, really cute, and it was silly, and there was a rival.
Guest:The place was called Copy Mart, and across the street was Mart's Copies, and it was their rivalry, but this little girl, this girl turning this, with all this big business knowledge, turning this small copy shop into something sustainable since, like...
Guest:I would always go past that one coffee shop, I don't know if you know it, that's on like Vine Street.
Guest:It's like this one.
Guest:And I was like, how does this place still exist?
Marc:I still see some.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Up on Colorado Boulevard, there's one in a strip mall that I used to go to get my passport photo.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And I'm just like, how is that still open?
Guest:Yeah, and they're fascinatingly depressing, but still around for customers.
Guest:And I was like, I liked stories like that, so I wrote one of those.
Guest:I still have it somewhere.
Marc:I did a story like that that didn't go, that I thought was great, about a guy who won the Academy Award for Best Short Film, and then it just didn't work out.
Marc:He got screwed up on drugs, and he had to go home, and he was working in a bridal photography place.
Marc:He was shooting getting videos.
Guest:Best Short Film is so funny, because that is like, what do you do with that if it doesn't catapult you to the big guy?
Marc:The dude who directed four episodes of my TV show, the first season, was that guy.
Marc:And I don't know what happened to him.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Why?
Marc:We got to look them up.
Guest:No, I don't want to know.
Marc:I'm sure it's okay, but it's probably not big movies.
Marc:Maybe I'm wrong.
Marc:Okay, so you got your spec script.
Marc:You tried pitching your original idea.
Guest:I didn't really pitch it.
Guest:My manager had it.
Guest:I didn't have anything, like any pitches planned.
Guest:So after that, I started- Oh, you didn't pitch it.
Guest:No, I didn't pitch it.
Guest:I just was writing.
Guest:After that, I started going broke.
Guest:The Instagram allure wears off.
Marc:What happened?
Marc:No more t-shirts?
Guest:No more t-shirts.
Guest:I also didn't like doing that.
Guest:I was like, I don't like this.
Guest:I don't want to sell merch.
Marc:Were you packing them yourself?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:That's the worst.
Marc:I know I did that.
Guest:You know, and I was like, I don't want to do this.
Marc:An apartment full of envelopes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Apartment full of envelopes carrying shit to UPS and FedEx or whatever.
Guest:I was like, this is a job in and of itself.
Marc:You had a t-shirt guy, right?
Guest:I had a t-shirt guy.
Guest:We would do it together.
Guest:But I was like, this is a job.
Guest:And I don't want this to be my job.
Marc:But it's interesting that you didn't think to, because now, obviously, you're capable of delegating responsibility.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But back then, you knew enough to know, like, I don't want to run a shirt business.
Guest:I don't want to run a shirt.
Guest:business and you don't have money to pay somebody else all the money you're making is going to sustaining your life so it's like I was like I don't want to do this and so I went and I was like I need a job I was at that point where I was like I never want to shy away from work or think I'm too famous for work and a friend Justin he was working at BuzzFeed and I was like oh BuzzFeed like I've seen their videos I was like so it's like an actual like job he's like yeah I'm a producer like I make these videos all day I'm like
Guest:Let's tell you, I could do that.
Guest:Do you think you could learn something?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was like, I can.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I came.
Guest:He asked me to be in a video.
Guest:And once I went to the facilities, I was like, oh, this is a real functioning workplace.
Guest:This is kind of exactly what I need right now.
Guest:I need stability.
Guest:I need a stable paycheck.
Guest:I need like, I can also still create shit.
Guest:Like I see the engine to still create comedy here, but ultimately I need a paycheck.
Guest:So I talked to the guys who, you know, ran that place at the time and they were like, you want to work here?
Guest:Cause they were like, you're famous.
Guest:And I was like, I'm broke.
Guest:So I don't care.
Marc:Famous from the Instagram?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because at that time, you know, a lot of people knew me.
Marc:Well, BuzzFeed would know, right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's that world almost.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I was like, no, I need a job.
Guest:And I was like, I don't, I want to, I like the idea.
Guest:I like the idea of like making shit.
Guest:It was collaborative.
Marc:It's interesting though, the difference between internet famous and famous famous.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Such a difference.
Guest:So collaborative.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:So collaborative.
Guest:So I started working there.
Guest:Got to work with people and I got to make like funny shit that people liked and shared.
Guest:And I did a residency first, which was just working there for a month.
Guest:And I was like, oh, I really want to be full time.
Guest:Like I need to pay.
Guest:I want study income.
Marc:So those kind of things were able to share.
Marc:It had a little more integrity than Instagram.
Marc:Right.
Guest:To me.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:To me.
Guest:I was like, also BuzzFeed wasn't as big.
Guest:big as it had became yet.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:BuzzFeed video was just a small little thing.
Guest:And then while I was there is while it got bigger.
Marc:Funny or Die?
Marc:Did you do any shit there?
Guest:I didn't do anything there.
Guest:I had uploaded something myself to Funny or Die.
Guest:And honestly,
Guest:Working.
Guest:I love to work.
Guest:And I had forgotten how much I loved it because I was on my own for a long... I told you, it's that stuff I hate.
Guest:It was so singular making, like, Instagram videos.
Marc:But now you're producing, right?
Marc:Yeah, I'm producing.
Marc:And you're working with other people?
Guest:Working with other people.
Guest:I have co-workers.
Guest:I have people I fuck with, people I can go out with, people I can... And I worked there for three years.
Guest:And while I'm there, I get to start writing longer stories, you know, like...
Guest:It became they were making these videos, but then it was like there was a space to make more narrative work.
Marc:Yeah, I can't identify anything about it.
Marc:BuzzFeed was primarily, it's not a news place.
Marc:It became that.
Guest:It became all of that while I was there.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Guest:Initially, it was just like any of the other ones were trying to generate... Yeah, it was like lists and these videos, these short, relatable videos.
Guest:I saw an opportunity to kind of create something more.
Guest:And so I started making narrative work there, created really cool shows for YouTube and then sold some shows to the other digital platforms like YouTube Red and...
Guest:which doesn't exist anymore, and Verizon Go 90, which doesn't exist anymore.
Guest:But that's where I got the taste of creating long-form work.
Marc:That was the time where... What was that one that was out in the... JASH?
Marc:Do you remember that place?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Right?
Marc:All these places had money.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What the fuck was that place called?
Guest:Somebody actually left BuzzFeed and started that.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Named Dominic.
Marc:Wild.
Marc:Childhood.
Marc:yeah wow that's crazy that feels like such a and there was some other big comedy network that a lot of people had shows on that went away i can't remember the name of that one yeah crazy but youtube red that was like there was a lot of talk around that they got money yeah did they did yeah i mean for yeah they had they bought a show for like a substantial amount of money in the internet space yeah and what was that show
Guest:That was called Broke.
Guest:It was a show I made about just three friends in L.A.
Marc:How'd that go?
Marc:How many did you do?
Guest:I did a season of 10 episodes.
Marc:So you're learning how to do this shit.
Guest:Yeah, learning how to do it, loving it.
Marc:Having writer's rooms at that time?
Guest:Yep, having writer's rooms.
Guest:At that time, I only had a writer's room of two people.
Guest:My friend Garrick Bernard, also from the stand-up world, and Kate Peterman, and we were our own little writer's room.
Guest:Garrick now...
Guest:He's writing one.
Marc:But you learned how to break everything down, the columns, the whiteboard, cards.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:And I read.
Guest:I love to just read and learn how to do shit, so I read how to do it.
Marc:Where'd you read that?
Guest:There's a book.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:It's just called How to Write TV.
Guest:That's a really good book.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I'm like, this should be on the bestsellers.
Guest:You did it, huh?
Guest:Yeah, but then you do it, and it was good.
Guest:It was a good way to learn.
Guest:And then I eventually leave BuzzFeed because I was getting opportunities.
Guest:I got to write for this show called Laser Wolf, which was on Adult Swim, which I canceled.
Guest:And then I was acting more.
Guest:I got to start...
Guest:acting and getting opportunities to pitch outside of BuzzFeed.
Marc:For network stuff?
Guest:For network stuff.
Guest:And that wrote for that show, Laser Wolf.
Guest:Worked with Larry Wilmore to create a show.
Marc:Oh yeah, he's a good guy.
Marc:How's that guy doing?
Marc:I haven't heard his name in a long time.
Marc:Really?
Guest:He's doing well.
Guest:Mind this business, making TV.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And yeah, then I got my real taste of it, of working in network, and that was a game changer.
Guest:Around that time, that whole time I was doing stand-up, but my heart just wasn't in it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I still have immense respect for the craft, but I was like, yeah, this is not for you.
Marc:That's all right.
Marc:Good for you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's a dirty world.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's so dirty.
Guest:It's so gross.
Guest:I'm sorry, Mark.
Guest:It is.
Guest:It's dirty.
Guest:It needs a... I am now.
Guest:It needs a complete cleanse.
Marc:Someone's got a clean... I'm old.
Marc:I just go... I go do my shows at theaters.
Marc:I know.
Marc:And I go do my shows at the comedy store.
Marc:I do my short sets.
Marc:I don't even know what's happening.
Guest:I know.
Guest:That's a good place to... But I think about it.
Guest:So I was like, somebody's got a...
Marc:Well, I don't know what the hell.
Marc:I mean, it was always sort of, but I think more so outside of moral issues, just the nature of being a nightclub comic or a performer is its own weird trip, and it's always been that way.
Marc:And it was not the life you wanted.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:It's a choice to have that kind of life.
Marc:Oh, for sure.
Guest:And then what the late night life...
Marc:just inadvertently will perpetuate of course it's just tough yeah the possibilities for for bad behavior for uh you know getting you know fucked up on drugs yeah i mean you know it's yeah it's it's you know historically yeah
Marc:you know the way it is it doesn't work out yeah but um yeah but i mean but look liam i it's like you did who i don't know who you have to take some sort of weird renegade spirit to want to live that life and you know you had business in mind you had you know collaboration and creativity that was you know better you just knew you were you knew
Marc:i know so so what happens though like how does you know abbott elementary evolve so you're writing for shows you're doing acting bits yeah you're pitching stuff yeah when does the idea hit you the idea for abbott hit me my parents are in their 44th anniversary so that hit me four years ago now four or five years ago
Guest:Right.
Guest:Five, because it was before my mom retired.
Guest:So I was just with her and my mom, and I went to Philly to go visit, and I was visiting her school, and I hit with this wave of like, fuck, I forgot how much of my life took place in a school, not just as a student, but...
Guest:with my mom before and after school.
Guest:My relationship to school was just different.
Guest:It was my second home.
Guest:And I was hit with all these feelings of this world.
Guest:I've been so far away from it for so long.
Guest:But man, these walls, these floors, this was something...
Marc:It's all very tangible and very specific, but everyone knows it.
Guest:Yeah, everyone knows it, but that to me, and I think that's what artists should be inspired.
Guest:It's something everyone knows, but you have a connection to it that can help.
Guest:materialize it for the rest of the world you know that familiarity and I was with my mom and I was urging her to retire because I don't I was like you're too old to be doing this and it's late and Philly's a tough city and she was trying to get me to come back home the kindergartners were tough too
Guest:Everybody.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My mom was one of those people that was like starting to get like, these kids are like out of control and little stuff was starting to trip my mom up.
Guest:Like the idea, this is just the truth.
Guest:She was like, so the kids are just gay now?
Guest:And I'm like, yeah, mom.
Guest:And she's just like, you know, it's just like, dude.
Guest:I was like, it's a lot happening, and you might need to think about it.
Marc:Is that who the Shirley Ralph character is?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:It's your mom.
Marc:Completely.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Completely.
Guest:And so, but then this parent came in, and it's 8 o'clock.
Guest:It was like parent-teacher night, which I was pissed about that they would have it go that late.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it goes till 8.
Guest:The parent came in at 7.50.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I was pissed I was like how dare you yeah but mom the woman was a nurse that was as soon as she could get there and she had her son with her and my mom was so excited because she had been wanting to talk to this woman all year yeah and I was just watching that interaction like this is who my mom is this is who she's always been this is who every teacher is pretty much who's a good teacher and
Guest:And I was sitting at my mom's desk looking at it all, and the idea just hit me like a ton of bricks.
Guest:I was like, oh, this is what I want my next show to be about.
Guest:And at that point, I had tried to sell...
Guest:I sold one show to CBS.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I was like, I knew how it worked and I knew what I wanted to do.
Guest:What was that show?
Guest:That was a show called Quentin Jermaine with Jermaine Fowler.
Guest:Another person I was like, who, Jermaine, like Gerard, Kevin Barnett, who had passed away.
Guest:These were all like kind of the people that I was, you know, sharing space with at the time.
Guest:And I made that show with Jermaine, sold it to CBS.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Learned a lot.
Guest:Loved working with... We worked with Larry on how to do that process of selling the network.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I wanted to make that show.
Guest:I immediately hit up who are now my co-producers, Justin and Pat.
Guest:But at that time, they were...
Guest:what were they doing they were working on a show Harley Quinn that's on HBO Max now and I was like I have this idea and I wanted it to be animated at first because I was working on the thing with Jermaine and yeah and I was like maybe I could focus on that if this is live action and it goes I can focus on this if it's animation yeah
Guest:And they loved it.
Guest:But then nothing happened.
Guest:The show with Jermaine and Larry didn't go.
Guest:It's weird.
Marc:How long did it take you to realize it wasn't going?
Marc:Because they don't really tell you sometimes.
Guest:They don't tell you.
Guest:And so it took forever.
Guest:And it was like, that didn't go.
Guest:And then Justin and Pat.
Marc:You know, it's weird when they finally tell you it's right around the same time you go, I guess it's done.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:You didn't hear?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Okay, cool.
Guest:I guess I made some money.
Guest:Thanks.
Guest:And then Justin and Pat.
Guest:Then I got casted in this show, Black Lady Sketch Show, and I did that, so that was moving.
Guest:I sold another show to HBO Max.
Guest:Basically, the whole Abbott idea, we talked about it, we all loved it, and then everybody got busy.
Marc:What was the HBO Max show?
Guest:That was a show that was actually based on BuzzFeed, but it was going to be like...
Guest:about a girl boss, but how awful she really was, who would be put in charge of the diversity department because she was black, but she didn't want to be.
Guest:She was all about herself.
Guest:And so her little journey to be better.
Marc:That's fine, because that character is kind of an abbot.
Guest:Yeah, I love that character.
Guest:I just think those characters, if you do them right, they're really funny.
Marc:Oh, they're hilarious.
Marc:They're hilarious.
Marc:Because they have to pretend like they give a shit.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Guest:And then when you finally see them actually give a shit one day, it's really fun.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:When you find their heart.
Guest:Yes, and for her, it was put on display, and for the HBO Max show, it was gonna be a big expose of a lot of people like that.
Guest:I think one person on HBO Max didn't like that.
Marc:Oh, is that what happened?
Guest:I really do.
Guest:I think she had a big problem with the call-out that was involved in this character.
Guest:So I sold that show, didn't go, and then I was on Black Lady Sketch Show.
Guest:how was that it was cool i was just an actor which was fun for me i had never gotten to be again learning some chops yeah just an actor on tv that was like cool yeah just i don't know and even learning to be quiet even like because i'm also a writer it was like learning to be like no i'm serving somebody else's vision right now yeah in this case i'm not a writer right i'm an actor it's a relief in a way it was then all you have to struggle with is like can i just suggest yeah right but that was good because
Guest:Because before that, I didn't really know how to shut the fuck up.
Guest:So it was actually good to learn how to do that.
Guest:And then the COVID happened.
Guest:And I was on a Warner Brothers lot.
Guest:I had a meeting there with a movie person.
Guest:And then I ran into Pat, who I had called years ago about Abbott.
Guest:and Pat and I ran into each other.
Guest:He was like, hey, what are you doing right now?
Guest:I was like, nothing.
Guest:I was like, black lace sketch show.
Guest:But that's it.
Guest:And he was like, do you still want to do that show?
Guest:Remember the teacher show you told me about?
Guest:I was like, oh shit.
Guest:I was like, honestly...
Guest:Yeah, like I love that idea.
Guest:They're like, so do we.
Guest:And they're like, we actually looking for something to put in our first position place.
Guest:And I was like, well, that's tight.
Guest:I just had a show that didn't go HBO Max.
Guest:I can work on another show.
Guest:And then boom, then COVID happens.
Guest:Everything shuts down.
Guest:Black Lady Sketch Show shuts down.
Guest:They went back for their second season, but I didn't want to because I was afraid of COVID.
Guest:My cousin had died of COVID.
Guest:I was like, I'm not.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:going back.
Guest:It was the first... In Philly?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They were one of the first shows to go back and I was just like, I'm not doing it.
Marc:You saw it.
Marc:It hit your family.
Guest:It hit my family.
Guest:It hit other families I knew.
Guest:I was like...
Guest:I don't, it doesn't, I don't care.
Guest:You can pay me a million dollars and I'm not going to be the guinea.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Shit was real.
Guest:So I didn't go back.
Guest:But then that time, a lot of that time was spent working on Abbott.
Guest:Like it was like, well, let's just work on this thing that we all think is cool.
Guest:The pilot.
Guest:The pilot.
Guest:Or even the idea for the show.
Guest:And then we pitched it to WB.
Guest:WB loved it.
Guest:And then we pitched it to ABC.
Guest:ABC loved it.
Guest:There was a woman at ABC who I had met two years ago.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:who, when I was selling the HBO Max show, and ABC wanted to buy it, but I was like, this show is not for ABC.
Guest:But what I liked about her, her name was Erin, and she sold ABC to me.
Guest:And I was like, I'm gonna come back to you.
Guest:And then we did for Abbott.
Guest:And then made the pilot.
Marc:So they had a little bidding war or no?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:There's always a bidding war.
Guest:I've never sold something and there hasn't been a bidding war.
Marc:That's nice.
Guest:Oh, is that not normal?
Marc:No.
Marc:Sometimes you pretend like there's a bidding war.
Guest:No, every time it's always been CBS, ABC.
Marc:Everybody wants you.
Guest:Yeah, but then sure, and then they don't make it.
Guest:So it never used to matter.
Guest:I learned that fast.
Guest:I was like, cool, bidding war is cute, but I actually want the show made.
Marc:And then you went with ABC.
Guest:I went with ABC.
Marc:And that is its home.
Guest:Yeah, and that's its home.
Marc:So you sold the idea, you wrote the pilot, and they said go.
Marc:Did you have to shoot a pilot, or did you just go right into writing episodes?
Guest:No, we shot the pilot and then we were picked up based off of that pilot.
Guest:But it was a pilot we all, everyone who got involved, everyone got really invested in this pilot.
Guest:We got like, I just wrote it, but the cast got super excited.
Guest:this is what I want to do.
Marc:They loved it.
Guest:They loved it.
Marc:I guess it's interesting to see a show that is so capable of being big hearted, but also the stories just can keep generating.
Guest:The stories can generate, they got to be funny, like people who... And kids.
Guest:Yeah, and kids, Janelle, who's a stand-up, actually had this thing that she actually was going to get to be real-life funny in.
Marc:I haven't seen Lisa Ann in a long time.
Marc:I've known her forever.
Guest:Lisa, and it was an opportunity for... When I saw Lisa audition, I was like... Everyone who auditioned, I was like, oh, damn, this is it.
Guest:And it's a nice feeling to have that and not feel like you're like, all right, I guess this person, like Lisa, I was like...
Guest:I don't give a fuck.
Guest:She is it.
Guest:She's it.
Guest:The conversation's over.
Guest:I felt the same way about Janelle.
Guest:I felt the same way about Chris Perfetti, which was hard because he was quite unknown.
Guest:Quite unknown.
Marc:And then Tyler I haven't seen in years.
Guest:Yeah, see, I had worked with Tyler on Black Lady Sketch Show, and I knew how good he was, and I kind of wrote that role completely with him in mind.
Marc:Oh, that's good.
Marc:And now what about Cheryl Lee Ralph?
Guest:Cheryl was someone I just didn't think we could get, so she wasn't on my radar.
Guest:I just...
Marc:But you knew her?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Of course.
Marc:It's weird who you find out you can get, right?
Guest:I know.
Marc:When I was doing my show, they'd show these pictures.
Marc:I'm like, that guy?
Marc:Right?
Marc:What?
Marc:But then you realize they're just working actors.
Guest:They're just working actors.
Guest:It's true.
Marc:It's an amazing realization to have.
Guest:It is.
Guest:It really is.
Guest:I've had it with people on the show.
Guest:I'm like, wait.
Guest:Because you grew up with them.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Orlando Jones, who plays Tyler's dad in our show, was someone where I was like, wait, we can physically have Orlando Jones.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, the weird thing is a lot of times after a certain point, actors think like, how long is it going to take?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And where is it?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I think like that now.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Can I get my quote?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Great.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Cool.
Marc:I'll do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because when you really think about acting, and it's probably something you realize, it's sort of like, that's really, those are the questions.
Marc:Like when you're just watching actors, you're just sort of like, oh, it's magic land.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But usually they're making decisions on, will you fly me out?
Marc:Yep.
Marc:And four days at this hotel?
Marc:Right.
Marc:And give me this money?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay, good.
Marc:I'll do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, that's me, kind of.
Guest:The easier, the better.
Guest:People are all like, how'd you do it?
Guest:I'm like, it worked out scheduling-wise, and yeah, I'll show up if it's easy.
Guest:It's not going to make me look crazy and have a good time with some people.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Yeah, so all of them were in.
Guest:The director, that was really important, was the director.
Guest:I really wanted someone who had done my documentary before, and little did I know, we got the godfather of it, this guy, Randall Einhorn, who had done...
Guest:Like, the majority of the office.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He went from being a DP on it to a lead director.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:So he really knew the style.
Guest:He knew the style.
Guest:He started off Parks and Rec.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But then he also did Wilfred.
Guest:And, like, he had just... And he...
Guest:We only got him to direct, but he literally fell in love with the show and helped design the warmth of the show and tone.
Guest:And so then Randall became an AEP and he's our resident director.
Guest:And everyone was falling in love with it.
Guest:So if it didn't go, it was going to be like a real bummer.
Marc:So going into it, what were the network concerns and what sort of navigating did you have to do around those concerns?
Guest:The concerns mainly were in casting, like the network was used to having big, big, big names.
Guest:And I really wanted people like Janelle and Chris.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, even Lisa wasn't a huge name to them in a network space.
Guest:I was like, this is who I want.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm kind of not budging.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And.
Guest:they had the stunt casting they wanted to do.
Guest:A lot of our fights were, which there were not many, I mean it.
Guest:I have to give ABC and WB total credit.
Guest:They let me cook.
Guest:I think they knew they needed something new, and they had to take a risk, and so they let me do that.
Guest:But they liked stunt casting, and I really did.
Marc:What does that mean?
Guest:Stunt casting is like, oh, we have a firefighter role.
Guest:Let's call Marc Maron.
Guest:And I was like, wait a second.
Guest:Hold on a second.
Guest:Is Marc right for the part?
Guest:Are we going to waste Marc Maron's time?
Marc:They want to get stars who had a day or two to come in.
Guest:But for me, especially because it was mockumentary for the first season, I was really against stunt casting.
Marc:Right, because they're too identifiable.
Guest:Too identifiable.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And especially for the main characters, there were people who they had in mind for Principal Ava who I was like, no, it breaks the illusion.
Guest:I want a face that most of America hasn't seen so that they get to fall in love with the characters in a certain way.
Guest:I was a new face to America.
Guest:The Internet might have known me, but not the ABC network audience.
Guest:Cheryl, in a way, got to be a new face to this world.
Guest:Tyler, because he was a kid last time he was on TV.
Guest:So it's weird.
Guest:I kind of had this weird, fresh face cast, even though some of them were veterans.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I love that because I think that's important to my community.
Guest:I just do.
Guest:If you're asking people to get involved in that way, it's important that they aren't seeing someone who they've known forever.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Did they feel that the show was accessible enough right from the beginning?
Guest:They did.
Marc:Oh, that's good.
Guest:They did.
Guest:But I also did my homework.
Guest:I know what it takes to make a network television show.
Guest:What does that mean?
Guest:Half of it is accessibility.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm not making an indie niche.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:FX.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, HBO Max show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It has to be accessible.
Marc:This is the kind of show we grew up with.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I love that.
Guest:And I love that shit.
Guest:That's the other difference, too, is it never was a hindrance for me.
Guest:I love that.
Guest:And that's what I wanted to make.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And in the room, my room is filled with incredible writers.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:A lot of time, it's me being like, that's too niche.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:We have to make that a broader... Bigger?
Marc:Broader?
Guest:We just do.
Guest:And, you know, naturally, comics and comedy writers are against that.
Guest:But I'm like, our job here is to make sure a grandma, a white grandma in Kansas, and a black internet child can laugh at this together.
Guest:That is our goal.
Guest:So if it's not, we have to make it broader,
Guest:And it's room for the little jokes for everybody in there.
Guest:But overall, like, I stay away from a lot of just niche, niche shit.
Marc:Well, yeah, but why do that?
Marc:You got so much heart in the spectrum of the show.
Marc:I mean, these are people doing a noble thing, an underappreciated thing, an underpaid thing, a heroic thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, which and so you have the sympathy.
Marc:Why push him away?
Guest:Right.
Marc:You have you know, you have that connection.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I love that connection.
Guest:And I love, you know, that I value that.
Guest:I think it's beautiful.
Guest:And part of the reason I want to make a show like Abbott is because I can't watch too much TV with my parents.
Guest:And Abbott's a show that, you know, I was missing having those shows we could watch together.
Guest:The last show we could really watch together was King of Queens.
Guest:Like we would watch that show and laugh all the live long day, but it wasn't, there weren't many shows coming out like that anymore.
Guest:So I wanted to put something in that space.
Marc:And you did it.
Marc:And you won an Emmy.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:That was exciting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Good.
Marc:Congratulations.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Do you feel like, were you upset about what Jimmy did?
Marc:No.
Marc:I think it was just a joke gone wrong a little bit.
Guest:Yeah, but once again, being a stand-up and being in comedy, that's a part of it.
Guest:And also, I just wasn't there.
Guest:I was on stage winning an Emmy, but I tell you, I didn't even see Jimmy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:laying there i mean or i mean you're so excited yeah yeah my brain just moved on i have to give this little speech but no and i talked to jimmy that night when my pr told me people were mad i was like wait really like i didn't know she was trying to prepare me like you're gonna get asked a question about this and i was like question about what and she showed me and i was like oh shit people are like legit mad and so i answered the little question in a funny way because i didn't know how mad they were yeah
Guest:Then I saw Jimmy after and me and him talked and he was like, did you see like the Internet?
Guest:I was like, yeah, I was like, that's crazy.
Guest:He was like, are you OK?
Guest:I was like, I'm good.
Guest:He was like, OK, because I didn't meet.
Guest:I was like, Jimmy, what are you like?
Guest:I'm really trying to go to the.
Guest:And then we took a little joke picture.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I enjoyed the rest of my night.
Guest:And then in the morning I woke up and like saw that people were really fucking mad.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was just like, damn.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I was like, okay, I guess it looked to them at home a different way than it felt for me in the moment in the room.
Guest:But that was kind of my, I've had that lesson many times, but another lesson in that the narrative that, you know...
Guest:The world may have about your experience is not the same as your experience.
Guest:And you have to deal with both of those things at the same time.
Guest:I'm like, all right, I get that people were mad.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But I wasn't.
Guest:I wasn't.
Guest:And no, both those things are true.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And that was it.
Marc:Interesting.
Guest:I kind of have to hold space for both.
Guest:Right.
Guest:People still come up to me and they're like, fuck Jimmy.
Guest:And I'm like, oh, well.
Marc:Well, I mean, like, you know, it's interesting, yeah, that it doesn't mean that what they experienced is wrong.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:Because that's what it looked like.
Marc:You know, and, you know, okay, you guys are friends or whatever, but still, right?
Guest:And ain't nothing I could do about that.
Guest:It's true.
Marc:It's like, all right.
Marc:So do you feel the pressure on now or are you all right?
Marc:No.
Marc:Yeah, you're just doing the job.
Guest:I thought I was supposed to say this.
Guest:Let me think of a nice way to say it.
Guest:We didn't make the first season of Abbott four awards or anything.
Guest:We really just wanted to make a show for people to enjoy.
Guest:My goal was to make a good comedy.
Guest:That was the focus.
Guest:And so the awards and stuff are just a plus, but...
Guest:I think not worrying about them didn't put much... Honestly, I was afraid of winning.
Guest:That's when I was like, well, fuck.
Guest:I was going to feel fucked if we won best comedy.
Guest:That was going to be... I kept talking to my writers and my cast about it, and I was like, I do not want to win.
Guest:I want to have room to make a second season.
Guest:What was it for?
Guest:What was it for?
Guest:The Emmy for?
Guest:Miami was for writing.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:And then Cheryl won for Best Supporting.
Guest:Oh, that's great, great.
Guest:And then our casting department won an Emmy.
Marc:So that's good.
Marc:Those are the good ones.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Writing was tight.
Guest:That made me feel very validated because at the end of the day, yeah, I personally feel I wrote the hell out of that pilot and I felt good to earn that one.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But Best Comedy Me was going to be like, I'm almost going to feel like, okay, y'all are actually trying to shoot us in the foot if we were to win that one.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I'm happy we did.
Guest:It was an honor to be nominated.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But I did not want to win.
Guest:Nobody was happier than me when Ted Lasso won.
Guest:I was like, you know what?
Guest:Yes, turn it up.
Marc:Now, are you finding that your generation is being represented in a way that you're getting feedback from?
Marc:They are getting older, like we said at the beginning.
Marc:Do you find that a lot of your audience is in that age group?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Yeah.
Guest:But my niece, who is 15, she showed me something on TikTok.
Guest:And I was like, oh, that's cool.
Guest:I was like, we're on TikTok?
Guest:And she was like, Quinta, I'm not on TikTok.
Guest:That's where I drew the line.
Guest:I was like, I refuse to get on that.
Marc:I refuse to learn about it.
Guest:I am happily old now.
Guest:I don't want any parts of that.
Marc:I just have some guy do it for me.
Guest:What do you mean, oh, he does the TikToks for you?
Marc:Well, yeah, I generally, occasionally I'll do a little thing with a cat, but usually they just cut up pieces of stand-up, and I'm like, well, fuck it.
Guest:See, that's good, but that's you doing your craft in its intended medium, and that's why I'm okay with it with Abbott.
Guest:I'm like, Abbott goes to ABC first, whatever y'all do with it after is fine by me.
Guest:But she said it's on there.
Guest:Yeah, and she showed me, and I was like, oh, my God, holy shit.
Marc:People were acting it out and stuff?
Guest:They love it.
Guest:They just post clips of watching it and talking about the show.
Guest:And I'm like, damn, that's really tight.
Guest:But then I go back to when I was younger and watching TV shows and just being a kid and working in it and not being cynical about it and just enjoying it.
Marc:Well, I think the genius of it is that most of us go to public school, right?
Marc:So the context, it's our nature.
Marc:So it's going to be a place of arrival or a place where people have been.
Marc:Everybody, they remember those rooms.
Marc:So I imagine that attention to detail.
Marc:about how that school look had to be pretty important.
Guest:Very important.
Guest:I was very precious about the look of that school and down to the amount of dirt on the walls.
Guest:I was like, these are stains that can't be lifted because they've been here since the school's inception and no cleaning job in the world can take a 40-year-old stain out.
Guest:And a certain warmth, which Randall really helped with, you know, we were making a mockumentary and we knew we'd get compared to The Office and Parks and Rec.
Guest:But in our world, the paper is kids, which is a difference.
Guest:The Office has a very drab feel.
Guest:This couldn't have that because there are living, breathing things that people are taking care of.
Guest:So the tone of the show became important to me.
Guest:We shot in a real school in L.A., but when we recreated it, it was like, I still need the length of that hallway, though.
Guest:That's important to the story.
Guest:It's where a lot of the gathering will be done, a lot of the talking.
Guest:Besides the teacher's lounge, that's our teacher's space to talk.
Marc:That's where everyone kind of meets.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And even though it's mundane, the audience needs to feel like they're in there too, so it needs to be big enough for the audience to feel like they're in the hallway.
Marc:And again, we've all been in those hallways.
Guest:You've been in those hallways, and this was a return to them.
Guest:I think the unique thing about Abbott was that a lot of the schools and shows were focused on either the kids, or sorry, shows and schools were focused on the kids, or they had this altruistic relationship with the teachers.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was like, oh, the teachers, it's about helping the kids.
Guest:This show is about the teachers who have lives.
Guest:And this is the job that they do.
Guest:But it's kind of the behind the scenes of your teachers.
Marc:And also, that's another thing.
Marc:When we were younger, when you find out, when you just got a little information about your teacher's life, you're like, oh, my God.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:She was just out there in her car at the supermarket.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:I remember in eighth grade, the girls had a crush on one teacher, Mr. Rescavage.
Guest:Because you're a little girl, so they form this crush and they form the possibility of relationship with them and Mr. Rescavage.
Guest:And one day, Mr. Rescavage's girlfriend, they saw him outside.
Guest:And all these eighth grade girls are like, what the fuck?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because you don't look at them as people, but they have full-blown lives.
Guest:Yeah, it's wild.
Marc:Yeah, so I think that's also... And I think that probably on some level remains a kind of...
Marc:mysterious trip, man.
Marc:Like, I don't know that I would identify it when I was watching it, but that, because I'm grown up and you kind of know people who are teachers, but it was heavy when you're a kid, when you saw, just even if they're at the store.
Marc:Like, what?
Guest:Don't you go to sleep at the school and then wake up and then teach me?
Marc:And you don't even know what to say to them.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Why are you in the school?
Marc:Yeah, it's so funny.
Marc:What are these clothes you're wearing?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, great job.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Seriously.
Marc:And it was good talking to you.
Guest:Yeah, this was fun.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:I'm glad it worked out.
Marc:It did.
Marc:I'm getting better at podcasts.
Guest:You are.
Guest:Thank you.
Thank you.
Marc:Right?
Marc:What an impressive individual.
Marc:Abbott Elementary is currently in season two on ABC.
Marc:Watch past episodes on Hulu.
Marc:And please hang out for a second, will you?
Marc:OK, today for today's archive show, I recommend listening to episode seven ninety eight with filmmaker Raoul Peck.
Marc:So, as I said before, you know, look, we're living in a shitty country right now.
Marc:We really are.
Marc:And the fact is we're accepting bread.
Marc:We're just accepting crumbs of faith, crumbs of hope, because it didn't go as bad as we thought it would go, even though it was a bad night for Republicans.
Marc:There's so much damage done.
Marc:And so what do you do about that?
Marc:At some point, hand wringing and dread, as I said before, it doesn't get you anywhere.
Marc:How do we learn to live within it and still take the action necessary to try and change it without panic, without freaking out, without being terrified all the time?
Marc:So Raul was here to talk about the documentary he made about James Baldwin.
Marc:I'm not your Negro.
Marc:It was February 2017.
Marc:So we're only about a month into the Trump administration.
Marc:Trump had already tried to implement the Muslim ban right away.
Marc:Every day there was chaos and antagonism from the White House.
Marc:It was all feeling very unstable and out of control.
Marc:And Raul had some good perspectives on this.
Marc:He lived under dictatorships.
Guest:He served in the government of Haiti.
Guest:And he learned how to engage activism through art.
Guest:What do we do?
Guest:You know, we cannot pretend to be innocent.
Guest:We are not in an innocent time anymore.
Guest:You know, we know all we need to know.
Guest:Whoever we are, black or white or Chinese, Native American women, we know our history.
Guest:If we don't, that's the other line, we are moral monsters.
Guest:Because we cannot pretend 2017 that we still don't know how the world is run, that we don't know our history, that we don't know that this country was built on to genocide and that we need to deal with it.
Guest:It's not about punishment.
Guest:It's not about reparation.
Guest:It's about knowing because knowing is already is the beginning of change.
Guest:Knowing in moral terms.
Guest:In moral terms, and also in reality.
Guest:Knowing the facts.
Guest:Knowing the numbers.
Guest:When you say, let's make America great again, what does it mean?
Guest:In that sentence alone, there are at least 20 mistakes.
Guest:20 mistakes.
Guest:And of course, you don't have the time to rebuke every single piece of that phrase, which doesn't make sense, which is idiotic and a manifest of ignorance.
Guest:And not only that of ignorance, but he takes you for an ignorant.
Guest:And that's terrible.
Guest:2017, to be able to say a phrase like that is to erase the history of America and the influence of America throughout the world, you know, in bad and good times.
Guest:You know, what does it mean?
Guest:It means nothing.
Guest:That talk brought me a lot of relief at the time, and we heard from a lot of listeners that it did the same for them.
Marc:I think it's just as relevant today.
Marc:So give it a listen.
Marc:Episode 798 with Raoul Peck.
Marc:It's available for free in all podcast apps.
Marc:Okay, tonight I'm doing a secret show.
Marc:That's not secret anymore.
Marc:It wasn't secret.
Marc:I'm in Largo in Los Angeles at 8 p.m.
Marc:I'm in Long Beach, California at the Carpenter Performing Arts Center this Saturday, November 12th.
Marc:I'm bringing Luke Schwartz with me.
Marc:I had no idea that that show would sell so well.
Marc:I mean, it's going to be a real show.
Marc:Eugene, Oregon at the Holt Center for the Performing Arts on Friday, November 18th.
Marc:Bend, Oregon at the Tower Theater on Sunday, November 19th.
Marc:Asheville, North Carolina at the Orange Peel for two shows on Friday, December 2nd.
Marc:And then Nashville, Tennessee, I'm at the James K. Polk Center on Saturday, December 3rd.
Marc:And my HBO special taping is at Town Hall in New York City on Thursday, December 8th.
Marc:Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all dates and ticket info.
Marc:Okay?
Marc:All right.
Marc:That was tight.
Marc:Here's some guitar.
Marc:Tight.
guitar solo
guitar solo
guitar solo
guitar solo
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey and La Fonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.
Marc:All right now.