Episode 1362 - Whitney Cummings
Marc:Lock the gates!
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuckadelics?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast.
Marc:Obviously, I am broadcasting from somewhere other than my garage studio in Los Angeles.
Marc:I'm out in the world.
Marc:I'm out in the Canadian world.
Marc:I'm in Canada having a vacation.
Marc:Is that OK?
Marc:I don't take many vacations.
Marc:I travel a lot, but I don't do the vacating much.
Marc:So is that a word?
Marc:Vacationing, I think.
Marc:Vacating, that would mean something different.
Marc:That would mean I'm leaving.
Marc:It doesn't matter.
Marc:I don't need to look anything up.
Marc:Vacationing is the word I'm looking for.
Marc:So I'm away for a bit, but I did want to continue to do my podcast while I'm away, as I want to do.
Marc:Is that how you say that?
Marc:As I want to do?
Marc:As I do?
Marc:First of all, before I even talk about who the guest is...
Marc:It was exactly 13 years ago today we released the very first episode of WTF.
Marc:That was September 1st, 2009.
Marc:Is that crazy?
Marc:Is that crazy?
Marc:I mean, do you remember?
Marc:I barely remember, but I kind of remember the panic.
Marc:I remember the panic of probably the first eight years of doing the show.
Marc:This constant...
Marc:fucking panic of making sure that we honored our responsibility and our uh our promise we made to ourselves to put up a new show every monday and every thursday no matter what since september 1st 2009 and there have been some crazy times i mean the show has evolved initially there was like nine podcasts in the world that people listen to uh
Marc:They were around.
Marc:I'm not saying that we invented it, and I won't say that.
Marc:I think we kind of helped define what the new world of podcasting is, the business and whatnot.
Marc:But at the beginning, we were doing it in the middle of the night, not even the middle of the night, but after hours at a radio studio.
Marc:And it evolved.
Marc:Into what it is now, but from the very beginning it was always we got to do the two shows and there's been different varieties of panic and then there was also the panic about
Marc:Social media platforms, getting it out there.
Marc:How does it all work?
Marc:It was the fascinating thing about the whole thing, especially given where podcasting is currently, is what it was like at the beginning and what it all became.
Marc:It's just it's kind of unreal to me to think.
Marc:That we started by stealing time in a radio studio with random segments, some guests.
Marc:It evolved more when I moved back to L.A.
Marc:and I put it in the garage.
Marc:The garage was not set up as a studio.
Marc:It was full of just junk that didn't fit in my house.
Marc:And then it became more of an interview show with a third act that was usually some sort of fake guest act, a comedy piece.
Marc:And then as it evolved into an interview show and things built up around it, that we saw the whole business kind of evolve and grow around us.
Marc:We were at the ground level with a lot of different...
Marc:Fights that we had to fight, you know, patent troll fights, you know, figuring out how to get advertising and watching that business grow alongside the, you know, networks growing alongside and everyone kind of rose at the same time.
Marc:Those of us who stayed in it and we saw it literally become a business.
Marc:I mean, at the beginning, we had two advertisers.
Marc:We had maybe three.
Marc:We had Adam and Eve, which was basically sex toys.
Marc:We had Audible, which was, you know, Audible.
Marc:And then we had Just Coffee, which was something we carried over from a streaming video show we did, Break Room Live, back in the day when people couldn't even stream it.
Marc:We did streaming video before anyone was really able to stream.
Marc:I actually did an internet podcast type of show before anybody was able to do it.
Marc:This is not a test I did for Microsoft on Broadway videos dime.
Marc:Jeez.
Marc:I don't even remember what year it was, but I think it was, it was a live sort of audio show with visual components that would happen simultaneously.
Marc:This is before any kind of video technology.
Marc:And it turned out, you know, we put a lot of work into it.
Marc:A lot of big guests were part of it.
Marc:Uh, Phil Hartman, I interviewed on that Conan.
Marc:It was because of the Broadway video poll.
Marc:Uh,
Marc:A lot of guest segments.
Marc:And I don't think anybody was able to listen to that that wasn't in the Microsoft building or on the Microsoft campus.
Marc:But moving from where it came from, which was, I remember when we first started doing this, in order to make it a job,
Marc:We offered tiers of membership, you know, like donations, like NPR kind of thing.
Marc:And you'd get swag if you gave a certain amount of money, a monthly donation thing that would kind of recur.
Marc:And I just remember my entire house being filled with envelopes, some with T-shirts, some with stickers, some with postcards, you know, just sorting that stuff out with just these Excel spreadsheets of all of the subscribers.
Marc:And oh, my God.
Marc:It was quite a time, and here we are, as a podcast and as a world, still going actually stronger than ever 13 years later.
Marc:So I guess I can say happy birthday, WTF.
Marc:Can I say happy birthday, WTF?
Marc:Sure I can.
Marc:And Whitney Cummings is on the show today, and she was actually on back in 2010 on episode 106 of
Marc:This was the only time we really had a full hour long conversation, although we see each other like all the time.
Marc:She was on my IFC show, Marin, and we work at the comedy store a lot and we text each other occasionally.
Marc:She's got a new special out on Netflix called Whitney Cummings Jokes.
Marc:But she was one of the original in the first with the second the second hundred guests.
Marc:2010.
Marc:Isn't that crazy?
Marc:A little other business here.
Marc:Back in 2019, we had a comic named Justin McKinney on the show.
Marc:You can go back and listen to that episode now that it's out from behind the paywall, episode 1041.
Marc:And you can hear his story about joining the police force and giving it up for comedy.
Marc:He's got a new special that's out today.
Marc:It's called Justin McKinney on the Bright Side, and you can watch it on YouTube.
Marc:If you haven't heard his episode, give it a listen and then go check out his special.
Marc:I've gotten a little reaction, and I want to talk about how my classification of boomers, I'm willing to admit overgeneralization, because I realized something the other day, that when I talk about baby boomers and me being one of the last ones out of the gate, and I judge them and their selfishness or their ego, or I say things that so much of the cultural chaos we're going through is at the hands of the dying of...
Marc:boomer egos.
Marc:I'm usually talking about men, and I'm usually talking about them in the arts or in the political game.
Marc:I do make a generalization, but I realized it was kind of broad, and I'm willing to make that exception because I feel like it was too broad.
Marc:Because when I really think about people who are still active
Marc:politically and in some ways doing the right thing on a progressive level and in an activism level and also in nonprofits and in helping people, a lot of times it is still that generation of original activists and people who were involved in the first wave of pushing back in the 60s.
Marc:Sadly, they are a lot of the people that are still kind of doing the work.
Marc:of trying to fight the good fight.
Marc:I mean, a lot of us pay lip service to it.
Marc:A lot of us may tweet a few things and speak up here and there.
Marc:But I think a lot of the boots on the ground are still some pretty old boots of a generation of original activists that I apologize for lumping in if it did seem that way in my generalization of that generation.
Marc:I think that was I think that was somebody brought that to my attention.
Marc:I think it's correct.
Marc:I think that usually what I'm talking about, it seems, are a handful of dudes that that seem to have a lot of of sort of cultural capital that, you know, are clearly acting from aggravated ego dimming.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Marc:I just sort of like people want to get everyone wants to go down shooting in this country.
Marc:And these guys were 70, 80 years old.
Marc:Look, everyone should be able to to have a good time.
Marc:But I just sometimes get the sense that they're bringing the whole fucking world down with them.
Marc:And this is you.
Marc:It's a broader conversation, and I simplified it by hanging it on a generation without giving credit to the fights that were fought by that generation, by people who fight the fight, as opposed to people that are completely self-involved, give zero fucks, are myopic, and only care about themselves and what they have to say, and also making exceptions for the worst of things culturally and politically.
Marc:OK, how's that?
Marc:Is that a is that a mea culpa?
Marc:What did I just do?
Marc:I don't even know what I just did.
Marc:I feel like it made sense.
Marc:So did it make sense?
Marc:All right.
Marc:So here we go.
Marc:Whitney Cummings is I'll be honest with you.
Marc:You know, we go way back.
Marc:We had I remember the I think we might have talked about it on the original episode a decade ago or whenever that was 2000 and what I say, 10.
Marc:So more than that.
Marc:12 years ago, many years ago, I think after the demise of my second marriage, I kind of I had a crush on Whitney and we were on the road together working.
Marc:And yeah, I mean, I tried to to see if it was reciprocated.
Marc:It was not.
Marc:But since then, we've been I wouldn't say we're I you know, it's a weird thing about comedians that there are certain comics that I came up with not in the same way that it's similar to to Jews.
Marc:Let me explain.
Marc:There is some sort of bond we all have.
Marc:You know, there's many of us, but there are certain core people that we've I guess if you spend a decade or more working around people, you don't have to spend, you know, some a lot of free time with them or or necessarily see yourself as having a, you know, a friendship in the standard way.
Marc:But just the fact that we've.
Marc:we work together and you respect people's work, that there is definitely a bond in the community.
Marc:And I've always loved Whitney and I've always been impressed with her work ethic and her energy and her humor.
Marc:And I gotta be honest with you, lately, she's just raw and just fucking all in.
Marc:And it's just, it's kind of great to watch.
Marc:And I was happy to talk to her.
Marc:Her new special, Whitney Cummings Jokes is now streaming on Netflix.
Marc:And yeah, so this is me talking to Whitney Cummings.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know.
Marc:I, you know, I can't, I don't know.
Marc:You know, we don't have kids and it's better off.
Marc:Together, we certainly don't.
Marc:No, I don't have any anywhere.
Marc:You don't have, you can't hide a kid.
Marc:You don't have one.
Marc:But don't you feel good about it?
Marc:I don't have a kid.
Guest:You know, I... Do you have a llama or something?
Guest:I don't have a llama.
Guest:But I am in close proximity to, what's the plural of llama?
Marc:I think llama.
Marc:To llamas very frequently.
Guest:I do want to say really quick.
Marc:You're in close proximity to llamas?
Marc:What's that?
Marc:You're in close proximity to llamas?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I do.
Guest:I have rescue horses and there's llamas at my ranch where the horses are.
Marc:Oh, you have a ranch?
Guest:It's not my ranch.
Guest:It's where my horses are though.
Marc:You rescue horses?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:You go out into the wild?
Marc:Yep.
Marc:And find wild horses?
Marc:Not wild horses.
Marc:They're getaway horses.
Marc:Those don't need to be rescued.
Marc:Oh, saddled horses?
Guest:Abused horses, abused show horses, race horses, dressage show horses, horses that are abused.
Marc:Do you find them new homes?
Guest:Yes, I'll rehabilitate them and find them new homes or put them in an equine therapy program and they'll be used for kids and assault survivors.
Marc:It seems like a tough sell.
Marc:Like, I mean, you can barely get rid of dogs at a shelter.
Marc:And you're like, do you need a horse?
Marc:No.
Guest:Well, horses can provide transportation.
Guest:They can actually get you somewhere.
Marc:Back in time.
Guest:Yeah, they're way more useful.
Guest:I do want to just close this one hatch.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Marc:Okay, sorry.
Guest:In between you being interesting.
Guest:Close a hatch?
Guest:Yeah, or just a circle.
Marc:I like it.
Marc:I like it.
Guest:So I get on my beverages, and I was somewhere.
Guest:And I just see it as taking care of myself, self-care, making sure that I'm able to show up for you and not sort of have a...
Guest:Cotton mouth, dry mouth, or my ADD kick in or be hungry and distracted.
Guest:And look at you, you're already exhausted by me.
Marc:No, I'm not.
Marc:I'm excited.
Guest:And someone went, oh, so you're neurodivergent.
Marc:Neurodivergent.
Guest:And I was like, what?
Guest:And she was like, well, this isn't, oh, you're not autistic?
Guest:This is an autism thing, like needing many beverages.
Guest:And I was just like, oh, sure.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:Yes, kind of.
Guest:So the beverages are always a big thing.
Marc:No, it's good to travel with things to put in your mouth.
Marc:True.
Marc:I mean, that's what it is.
Marc:It's not neurodivergent.
Marc:You just want options, and you want to be able to have these things.
Guest:I just think it's sometimes hard to stay concentrated in podcasts, and I like to just make sure I'm not distracted.
Marc:When was the last time I talked to you?
Guest:On this show was maybe... 2000 and... Maybe 11 years ago.
Marc:11 years ago.
Marc:Yeah, it was deeply traumatic.
Marc:It was?
Marc:Deeply traumatized.
Marc:Yeah, you said you had to work something out.
Marc:You had to settle some sort of score?
Guest:No.
No.
Guest:No, it was more, I think the first time I was on here, it was before I had really, you know, I had just sold some TV shows.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it was just such a, I just remember leaving and just feeling like, ugh, like I feel like I had disassociated.
Guest:I feel like I, um...
Marc:Really?
Guest:Didn't know you that well and didn't deliver on any level.
Marc:So you were hard on yourself about that?
Guest:Well, you said something to me that just like stuck with me.
Marc:Yeah, what is that?
Guest:In the back of my mind all the time.
Guest:You'll both love and hate how much real estate you take up in my brain.
Guest:You said to me, you're like, so you do like jokes.
Guest:Right.
Yeah.
Guest:It took me forever to realize how I didn't realize it was an insult until like half an hour later in the interview.
Guest:I was like, yeah, I do jokes and here's how I do them.
Guest:And then I was like, oh, wait...
Guest:And the name of my new special is jokes.
Marc:And that's my fault?
Guest:That's not your fault?
Marc:This is like your payback?
Guest:No, it was just my way of just going like, you know what?
Guest:I do write jokes.
Guest:I do do jokes.
Guest:And maybe that's okay.
Guest:This is what I do.
Guest:And I've spent so much time having Maren in my head.
Marc:But what's the alternative to that?
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:I mean, I do my version of whatever the fuck.
Guest:Totally, but just whatever.
Marc:Just both of us, where we were.
Marc:I diminished you somehow.
Guest:No, not even.
Marc:I boxed you in.
Marc:You're just a little joke machine.
Guest:think we all hurt people's feelings by accident all the time and we get our feelings hurt when people aren't intending to it was just do you ever look back at moments in your life that had such a giant impact on you and the person that did it probably has no fucking clue oh yeah all the time it was just that because i remember at first being grappling with it and being like be more conversational be one of those storytellers that takes viewers on a journey well and all that was in there yeah i think you unpacked it properly it
Guest:And then later I was like, I do do jokes and I'm fucking proud of that as people are just like comedians or virtue signaling and lecturing and giving TED Talks.
Guest:And I'm glad I just write jokes.
Marc:And I think we all do jokes.
Marc:If you're a professional comedian, I think that whatever anybody says about storytelling or this and that, that ultimately, if you're trying to get laughs and you do it, there's how you do jokes.
Guest:And I'm also just like I'm at the I am such an unapologetic tryhard.
Marc:I don't know what virtue signaling means totally.
Guest:It just means like people that are I think it happened a lot during the pandemic when comedians were just like looking for ways to get attention and clout or fill the void or whatever it was because they couldn't get on stage.
Guest:And it was a lot of just like whether it was, you know, and I'm not the person to weigh in on this.
Guest:I think a lot of people would say like that black square for Black Lives Matter was virtue signaling.
Guest:Just the idea of.
Marc:I kind of know what it is, but I don't know how.
Guest:Performative activism?
Marc:Is that a better phrase?
Marc:But there is no other way to do it, is there now?
Guest:But comedians started doing things they would make fun of other people doing.
Marc:I guess.
Marc:Some of them.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:You never know who anybody is until you do.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:And I'm generalizing.
Marc:But when you get on stage and you're like, I'm probably going to get canceled.
Marc:Do you really think you're going to get canceled?
Marc:Isn't that sort of, at this point, kind of a hack line?
Yeah.
Marc:this idea that like, oh, well, I'm going to take a risk here.
Marc:Hmm.
Guest:Have you done 30 minutes of trans jokes yet?
Marc:No, but I talk pretty frankly about, you know, fascism and gay.
Guest:I think you are uncancellable.
Guest:I think for me.
Marc:That's so not true.
Marc:That's so not true.
Guest:Unless you committed a crime.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Or it just, or somebody twists something a certain way.
Marc:I understand the idea of it, but I mean, it doesn't seem like your trans jokes are on the wrong side of things.
Marc:Who's going to cancel you?
Guest:No.
Guest:No, they're not at all.
Guest:But I take umbrage at that because I don't think you realize how much people want me to fail.
Marc:Who's that?
Guest:I don't think you... Whether you know or don't know, I don't think you realize how many people... Because you're a woman?
Guest:I don't even think it's that.
Marc:Because you're Whitney?
Guest:I think I bring up a lot of emotion in people and I think I trigger people deeply and I think I'm polarizing and I think I... Based on what?
Guest:What's happened?
Guest:I just think that people have strong reactions to me.
Guest:I think people have strong reactions to all female comedians.
Marc:I think it brings up a lot.
Marc:I think that's true.
Marc:You love them or you hate them.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:But what's happened to make you aware of this?
Guest:I think just... Like have people come up to you with like, you know... Have you seen your tweets to me, Mark?
Yeah.
Marc:Those are just funny.
Guest:I know, but I'm just saying, I get it pretty rough, and I never really talk about it.
Guest:It doesn't affect me on a daily basis, but I have found there are certain things that if I say them up top, they afford me a little bit more later.
Guest:Oh, I see, yeah.
Guest:And I think that I'm someone that people really want to, a lot of people want to see fail.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:And I think that people have tried in all kinds of ways or go like, you were friends with this person or you knew about this thing.
Marc:Oh, Adelia and shit?
Guest:Well, just, I mean, tons of things.
Marc:Who are those people?
Marc:What side do they come on?
Marc:Are they just people who are resentful or do you find they have a position, a side?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it's always been the case with me.
Guest:I mean, I remember even when I would come to the comedy store just in the very beginning, you know, I was just scared and anxious and trying to be a good comedian.
Guest:And in the beginning, no one is, is my guess, you know, whether I was or not.
Guest:And it's very confusing because it's like, you suck, but also you're so successful.
Guest:Like, which is it?
Guest:You know, so I think that people, if I'm not good enough, people are mad about it.
Guest:If I'm too good, people are mad about it.
Guest:If I'm successful, people are mad about it.
Marc:Let me ask you a question.
Marc:What?
Guest:Not everyone, but.
Marc:And my tweets to you, I know sometimes they're a little, they're meant to be funny.
Guest:And I'm joking, but I'm saying we're friends.
Marc:Right, right.
Guest:But I'm saying the amount of.
Marc:When I see a picture of you hugging Santino and I tweet monsters.
Guest:That's not what I'm talking about.
Guest:I'm totally being facetious with you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I love you and I wouldn't be here if I didn't.
Marc:I've done some kind of mean ones with you.
Guest:Well, we have a thing.
Marc:But let me ask you this, you know, because you're saying people, people, people, you know, they think this, they think that.
Marc:But I mean, aren't you making a lot of that up in the same way that we get our feelings hurt by by by projecting personalities onto things?
Marc:I mean, I know that people tweet at you and women comics definitely have it much worse.
Marc:But I don't think there's a room full of people at any given point in time wanting you to fail.
Marc:I think people like you and, you know, you're doing good comedy.
Guest:I agree.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:But I'm just addressing the one thing you said of, do you really think you're going to get canceled?
Marc:But being canceled is different than assuming that people want you to fail.
Guest:Okay, so I am just telling you why I do that sometimes in the beginning.
Marc:Oh, yeah, to get people loose.
Guest:You uniquely hear it because I'm usually following you at the comedy store going before you.
Guest:So I don't say that on the road.
Guest:I don't ever say that.
Guest:But if you're going to be like, that's kind of a hack line.
Guest:I have to say why I fucking do it.
Guest:And that's why.
Guest:You don't have to agree.
Guest:But it's...
Guest:It's, yeah, I mean, it's.
Marc:The only reason I say that is out of love for you.
Marc:Because I think that on some level, these people that are sort of like, no, I'm anti-woke and that's why I don't get work.
Marc:I'm like, is that why?
Guest:I don't think maybe that's true.
Guest:I don't buy, that is total bullshit.
Guest:Trust me, I am totally on your side.
Guest:None of that is real.
Guest:That whole, we can't say anything anymore.
Marc:That's not true.
Marc:You can kind of say stuff.
Guest:You can say literally whatever you want.
Guest:You just can't be unfunny.
Marc:It just might be consequences.
Guest:Literally.
Guest:If I say don't cancel me, that's probably my way of going.
Guest:This might not be a funny joke.
Guest:That's why you should be canceling people.
Guest:And it's like it's always coming from the people that like how you never said tranny before.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Why do you need to say it so badly now?
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:You know, so I think it's more.
Guest:But comedians, I also think we shouldn't be surprised by this is we're professional fucking babies.
Guest:I mean, comedians, you know, complain about sugar cookies for 40 minutes.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Really?
Marc:Who's doing that?
Guest:Well, that was Gary Goldman's sugar.
Guest:Remember, he used to do the black and white cookies, the sugar cookies.
Guest:Yeah, like it's like we'll complain about anything.
Guest:You know, Seinfeld will complain about raisins for 40 minutes.
Guest:Like we this is what we do.
Guest:Genius.
Guest:We we get wildly offended by the tiniest modicum of judgment.
Marc:All I know is like all I'm dealing with on any given set is sort of like, am I going to open my heart and sort of be a warm entertainer or I'm going to or I'm going to make these people pay?
Guest:I love watching you right now, Mark.
Guest:You are in a fucking zone.
Guest:You too.
Guest:Oh, thanks.
Marc:Really?
Marc:I'll watch you right when you take the stage.
Marc:I'm like, wow, she's all in.
Marc:There's no filter anymore.
Guest:But also, so are you, just in a different way.
Marc:No, sure.
Marc:So are you.
Marc:I think we're in our grooves.
Guest:Imagine if I went up there and looked at a notebook and was like, I'm half here.
Guest:I mean, how annoying would that be?
Guest:The only thing more annoying than a comedian who's all in and committing really hard, and we roll our eyes like, oh, here they are doing their job.
Marc:Well, it's just interesting that there are people that really, I mean,
Marc:I find that I get, especially at the comedy store, because it's like a trauma factory for me from way back.
Marc:But sometimes I get up there and it really fucks with my head.
Marc:Sometimes the main room, you're like, how is this not a good room now?
Marc:Why is this audience like this?
Guest:I don't even, that room is such a mind fuck.
Marc:I don't even know why we do it.
Marc:Because it's like, it's sort of interesting, you know, but then, you know, there's a, I don't know.
Guest:It's the only room I feel insecure in to this day.
Guest:And maybe it's because you're in the fucking back going, oh, she's not me.
Marc:I'm the guy in the back judging you.
Marc:No, no.
Guest:Do you know how much of a nightmare it is to work on new stuff knowing like Marc Maron's pacing behind you, behind the curtain?
Guest:You think that's a fucking blast?
Marc:That's all I'm thinking.
Marc:I'm like, you heard this joke last night.
Guest:I shouldn't do this joke.
Marc:I'm not the one.
Marc:I like you.
Guest:I know, but you have to.
Marc:I'm trying to make a point that you're making things up.
Marc:I understand your argument, but I'm here to clear it up for you.
Marc:I'm not back there pacing, thinking about you.
Marc:I'm just sort of like, oh, fuck.
Marc:Now I got to.
Guest:Oh, I know you're not thinking about me, but I think that it's fascinating that still.
Marc:I'm on Team Whitney right now.
Marc:And I never really wasn't.
Marc:So I'm not the guy.
Guest:I believe that.
Guest:No, I believe that, which is part of the reason I would talk to you like this and drive three and a half hours to wherever we are.
Marc:And bring a tent.
Guest:I did bring three bags with me.
Guest:I didn't know what I was in for.
Guest:But no, I think that it's a testament to how much I love you and how much I respect you.
Guest:And I want you to think I'm funny.
Guest:I want you to be proud of me, but I know...
Guest:If you don't, that's also okay.
Guest:It's taken me 10 years to realize I'm not writing jokes just for you.
Guest:It's really liberating.
Guest:Would Maren like this?
Marc:Yeah, you do jokes.
Guest:Although sometimes things happen to me.
Guest:Do you have any comedians in your head where something happens or you think of a joke and you're like, oh, this should be for Dana Gold.
Guest:I had a raccoon.
Marc:What happened with that?
Marc:Family.
Marc:I've got a couple of things that I got to ask you about.
Marc:Oh, God.
Marc:We haven't really talked at depth in like 13 years.
Marc:A lot has happened.
Guest:I'm glad you agree with that.
Marc:What?
Guest:Because I was driving over here.
Guest:I was like, him and I, we definitely haven't had a conversation in like 12 years.
Marc:I know.
Guest:It wasn't just, hey, hey, how's the room?
Marc:I know.
Marc:Sometimes you spin out in the green room.
Marc:You'll spin out a little bit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You'll go.
Marc:You'll kind of go on a thing.
Guest:Am I a person you see in the green room and you're like, oh God, this is going to be a spiral?
Guest:Because I feel like everyone's complaint is I keep to myself.
Guest:You're the only person with that complaint.
Marc:I don't have a complaint.
Marc:I don't know what you're hearing.
Marc:What the fuck is wrong with your ears and your fucking brain?
Marc:You can't even identify tones properly.
Marc:Sometimes you're lit up and if there's a topic at hand, you will talk in the green room.
Marc:I've never known you to be like, why isn't Whitney talking?
Marc:That's never been anything I've heard anybody say.
Marc:I don't know where you get this reputation of being the quiet lady.
Marc:That's something you made up.
Guest:No, I think a lot of people, well, you wouldn't know because people act different around you.
Guest:You don't know anyone's personality.
Marc:I don't.
Guest:Mark Maron's around.
Guest:Everyone's.
Guest:I don't think that's true.
Marc:What are you talking about?
Marc:I'm just an old man wandering around.
Guest:Don't do this.
Marc:What?
Guest:I do think it's important that we're all in echelons where you have to recognize your impact on people.
Guest:Because I find sometimes... I don't.
Marc:I don't recognize it.
Marc:But yeah, go ahead.
Marc:You find what?
Guest:You have some... You know what?
Guest:You actually might not.
Marc:You actually might be... I don't Google my name.
Guest:But do you not have a concept that people are trying to impress you or...
Marc:Sometimes.
Marc:Sometimes I'm like, what do they want?
Guest:Your respect and love.
Guest:I agree it's dumb.
Guest:They're never going to get it.
Marc:No, that's not true.
Guest:When I see someone trying to impress you, I'm like, ah, that is so 2004.
Marc:How has that happened?
Marc:But I am much more open now.
Marc:I'm not running around trying to intimidate people.
Marc:I don't even understand how people get that.
Marc:I don't do that with you.
Marc:You understand me.
Marc:You've seen me.
Marc:You've known me a long time.
Marc:We've been through things together despite not knowing each other that well, but we've been around each other for a long time.
Marc:And we were in La Jolla together.
Guest:Do you feel like maybe you, I will, we can play beat by beat, go through that if you'd like.
Guest:There's nothing to go through.
Marc:I was easily deterred.
Guest:But do you think that you're equals to, like, I think that maybe you're resistant to being at the top of the food chain.
Marc:I'm not at the top of the food chain.
Marc:What's the food chain?
Marc:What is winning?
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I think winning is generally when you go to bed at night, being proud of your behavior that day.
Marc:Behavior or work?
Guest:What's the difference?
Guest:There's a big difference.
Guest:Your behavior at work.
Marc:Well, no, I mean, my brain can do a lot of things over the course of a day, which is like I've noticed before.
Marc:It's like, you know, when I get to the comedy store, I've been through several days in my day and several different, you know, like I've gone down and up.
Guest:You do always show up like the guy from No Country for Old Men.
Yeah.
Guest:With like the big, you're about to just shoot people with a cattle gun.
Marc:Oh yeah, that's interesting.
Marc:Yeah, I'm that guy.
Marc:Sometimes I do feel like that to the audience.
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:You've been through so much, yeah.
Marc:In my mind.
Marc:But I don't always know, like I do know,
Marc:I don't take it in that much.
Marc:I see what effect I have on my audience by feedback and emails and stuff.
Marc:But in terms of comedy, I do understand that I've facilitated something and was at the beginning of something that a lot of comics respect.
Marc:And I think my comedy is pretty well respected.
Marc:But I still compare myself.
Marc:I still compare and despair.
Guest:Any good comic does.
Marc:But I don't even want what people have.
Guest:But that doesn't mean you can't get better by comparing.
Marc:I don't know if I'm getting better.
Marc:I just feed on a resentment, and I judge, and I wonder, why don't that many people want to see me?
Marc:And then I'm like, well, why would they?
Guest:Well, there's something so cool about...
Guest:People knowing you so well that I'm excited to get to this point.
Guest:And I know talking about TV is so boring and gross.
Guest:But I used to always say, like, you know, the best, the funniest jokes on any sitcom or TV.
Guest:Like, I loved Family Ties growing up.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Because it's like you knew the character so well.
Guest:Someone could just say something to Michael J. Fox's character, Alex B. Keaton, and everyone would laugh.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because they just knew.
Guest:Right.
Guest:him so well that they knew this was gonna be funny.
Guest:It's like, people know you so well.
Guest:Like the other night when you went, I watched Euphoria, and I, sorry, I don't want to botch your joke, but you're like, I was like, should I be watching this?
Guest:Like, it was so funny, because we all know you so well.
Guest:We know you're a good person.
Guest:We know what you've been through.
Guest:Like, if I had said that, it wouldn't have been that, you know?
Guest:I think there's certain jokes, for lack of a better word, you can only do at this stage of your career, because people know you so well.
Marc:I think that's right, but that's what you work for, right?
Guest:Totally, so you're just in this fucking surfing this wave that is so fun to watch.
Marc:Yeah, and I appreciate it, and I know I'm in that, and I'm happy about it most nights.
Marc:But that doesn't mean I don't think that other comics are judging me.
Marc:You have comics you think are judging you, whoever's judging you, whoever wants you to fail.
Marc:I literally, like, I think there are some big comics that, and the problem is, is like, I fucking, I don't respect them either.
Marc:And I know that they're sort of like they think what I do is something different than what they do.
Marc:And I'm just a fucking comic, man.
Marc:I mean, I do funny shit.
Marc:But like when I see established people that just have joke churning personalities and make billions of dollars, I'm like, go fuck yourself.
Marc:Where's the risk in that?
Guest:But I think my guess is they look at you and go, he's so fucking respected.
Guest:I want that.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did you listen to that conversation?
Marc:Jerry Seinfeld.
Guest:I didn't.
Guest:Is that OK?
Marc:Yeah, of course.
Guest:Was that recent?
Marc:It was during the pandemic.
Marc:It was OK.
Marc:But I just have always thought that, like, you know, there's an established crew of comics, both young and old, that operate at this level where I'm still this weird sort of like, you know, I'm still this guy fighting with himself in a nightclub.
Marc:And these guys are sort of like doing, you know, whatever the hell they're doing to make money.
Marc:And I just don't think of that.
Marc:I don't think of that shit.
Guest:You seem way happier to me.
Marc:I am happier.
Marc:So wait, so, okay.
Guest:If you had that kind of money, you'd have fucking Lyme disease.
Guest:I just went to the Hamptons.
Marc:I have money.
Marc:You get Lyme disease.
Marc:You get Lyme disease.
Marc:You get Lyme disease.
Marc:They have killer bugs.
Guest:You could never have that much money.
Guest:You would hate it.
Marc:Let me just close that hatch or whatever the hell you said.
Marc:If I had that kind of money, I still wouldn't go to the fucking Hamptons, all right?
Marc:It's awful.
Marc:It's fucking awful.
Marc:I have plenty of money now and I don't do anything with it.
Marc:Like a big day for me is when I get a new wooden spoon.
Marc:So, you know, I don't know what to do with money.
Guest:You really don't.
Marc:No.
Guest:But you're going to move to Canada.
Guest:That's going to be expensive.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It's more of a retirement fantasy for when we really can't say anything here.
Guest:Do you feel like now that you're at this place where...
Marc:I don't know what's happening.
Guest:I'm just saying now that you've like on some level mastered, I don't know if I'm allowed to use that word in terms of like addictive impulses, like the whack-a-mole of like, okay, it's alcohol.
Guest:Yeah, then it's, you know, maybe it's online shopping, maybe it's gambling, maybe it's eating.
Marc:I don't have gambling.
Marc:I don't have online shopping that much.
Guest:Sometimes gambling addictions manifest other ways.
Guest:Like, you know, sometimes it's, you know, the sex addiction stuff.
Guest:I got away with this.
Guest:Can I get away with this?
Guest:Shoplifting is kind of, it's the same part of the brain as me.
Marc:No, I get it.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:Not saying you have it.
Marc:I don't have the porn thing.
Guest:But is adrenaline one for you?
Guest:Because that's a big one for me.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I exercise a lot now.
Marc:And the eating thing is always hard to manage.
Marc:And I think I...
Marc:I don't have that much of a compulsive sex thing.
Marc:I think I've always, throughout my life, from being a young Jewish boy.
Marc:Worrying.
Marc:Well, no, there's just like, you know, masturbating is like a meal.
Marc:You know, it's just something you do like every day if you can.
Guest:Yeah, knock it out.
Guest:It's healthy.
Guest:Okay, so, but meals were doing more than one a day, right?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Because that was the sort of thing.
Guest:You know how, like, meals, you know how you have, like, one a day?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:No, that's not a thing.
Marc:No, I eat okay.
Marc:Everything's okay.
Marc:My addictions are sort of okay.
Marc:I find myself a little squirmy in my body, though, lately, and I can't figure it out.
Marc:I think it's just age.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:But why did we get here?
Guest:Because I was just curious.
Guest:I think that for me, I find myself when I don't have predictable chaos, I will sort of fashion some for myself just to get that hit of adrenaline and adrenaline turns into dopamine.
Guest:So I find myself if I'm like really.
Guest:Do you exercise?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:If I'm in an emotionally kind of sober place and I'm feeling bored or I'm feeling.
Guest:It's like if I need to be somewhere at four and it takes 30 minutes, I'll leave it.
Marc:Yeah, I wake up anxious about, like, I make that stuff in my head.
Marc:Everything, like, I have to tell myself during the day, it's sort of like, dude, you can take your time.
Marc:You have nothing to fucking do.
Marc:I'm like, no, but you don't.
Guest:But those tools worked really well probably at some point in your life.
Marc:They're getting there.
Marc:Everything's getting there.
Guest:You know?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then, but do you have, like, I do really well with routine.
Guest:I've started scheduling things.
Guest:That really helps me.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So that I'm not, my main thing I'm realizing is decision fatigue and the shame that comes with making the wrong decision at the buzzer.
Guest:So, like, I wake up and I'm like, oh, wear these jeans and this shirt.
Guest:And then I leave it.
Guest:I'm like, that's fucking wrong jeans.
Guest:These jeans, why am I wearing these jeans today?
Guest:These are the dumb jeans, the camel toe jeans.
Guest:I can't wear these.
Guest:And then I'm like, how did I just, so, and then I'm going to beat myself in my day.
Guest:So I have started, this is so insane.
Guest:No, it's not insane.
Guest:I'm not going to pathologize it.
Guest:It works for me.
Guest:On Sundays, I'll take two hours.
Guest:I'll make all my decisions for the week that I can make on Sunday.
Marc:You're telling me you lay out your outfits on Sunday?
Guest:I hang them on a fucking thing.
Guest:I have a vintage bar from Etsy with two bears on either side.
Guest:It has everything for the week.
Guest:Just so I'm minimizing.
Guest:Because for me to make a decision is too, it takes a lot of bandwidth.
Guest:It takes up a lot of energy dollars.
Yeah.
Marc:I get that.
Marc:I mean, I deal with something similar to that.
Guest:Like, do you use a lot of energy making small decisions?
Marc:Well, it's just I have trained myself to do things like the part of my brain that's like, you know, just do it wins more now.
Marc:Like with exercise and everything else.
Marc:If I wake up like I don't want to fucking like all of a sudden I'm dressed and I'm going.
Marc:So like the part of me that makes decisions is winning more now.
Marc:And in terms of pants and stuff, I don't know.
Marc:I kind of commit to, you know, a couple of pairs of pants and a shoe or two.
Guest:You know who you were talking, I don't know who you were, I think it was Kate Berlant that you were talking to about performance artists.
Guest:And sometimes, you know, do you ever, I'm sure you don't listen to a ton of other podcasts, but you know when someone's trying to think of something, what's that person's name?
Guest:And I'll be like yelling it in the car.
Guest:Marina Abramovich is someone that didn't come up that I am obsessed with.
Guest:And I don't know if you consider a performance artist or not, who cares?
Guest:And she has this manifesto.
Guest:It's like an artist manifesto.
Guest:It's probably a little too rigid and maybe a little bit self-indulgent.
Guest:But it's like every artist should have like three white shirts, three pairs of white pants.
Guest:And I did it for like a year.
Marc:And what did you get out of that?
Marc:Why are you listening to her?
Marc:The lady that sat in the museum looking at people.
Guest:I liked that.
Marc:It was fine.
Marc:I like it all too.
Marc:But why do we compare ourselves?
Marc:That's not the art that we're doing.
Marc:It's like Einstein had two suits.
Marc:I mean, who gives a fuck?
Guest:But I also like when people do different things than me.
Guest:I think for the longest time, it's like, what the fuck is that?
Guest:It's like, oh, you do that.
Guest:So the world needs contrast.
Guest:So it's like, oh, you get to be like, what if everyone was doing what you do?
Guest:That would be way worse.
Guest:Don't you think?
Marc:Yeah, I don't think.
Marc:Yeah, but I've tried to design that so that doesn't happen.
Marc:I try to talk about specifically personal things so no one can hack me.
Marc:But you do something so specific.
Marc:When I came up with that Angel Factories joke, I had to text four people to make sure they hadn't heard it.
Marc:It's like Patton.
Marc:Patel.
Marc:Attell, I don't know if I got to, yeah, maybe I did, and Doug.
Marc:I don't think Attell would do that one.
Marc:Attell usually texts me with things like that, but I haven't heard from him in a while.
Guest:Yeah, sometimes I'll check in with people, but yeah, no, I mean, I think also the longer we've been around, the more we're like, have I heard this or did I just think of this?
Marc:Well, some things are just, it's just public domain, man.
Marc:You know, once you start getting into public domain shit, there's 10,000 fucking comics.
Marc:I mean, it's who gets it ever first.
Guest:Do you ever feel like you go to the store, just go in to do stuff so people know you're doing that premise?
Marc:Well, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I do.
Marc:I do.
Marc:But then like, but it's only a matter of time before someone else does it.
Marc:And then you have to do the whole sort of like, no one knows who they are.
Guest:Well, just also just like doing it.
Guest:And I'm like, I'm doing, so people like, okay, maybe I'll, you know.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I got to change my.
Guest:Or like, we know she's been working out.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Like where I'm always trying to play defense of people trying to just be shitty with me.
Guest:So I'm just like, I'm going to just go do it.
Marc:These are these people being shitty with you again.
Marc:i love it you have no evidence i love this take it is actually so like that you're like you just think i'm like beloved is i love no i don't think you're beloved i know you're challenging i think i should i mean i'm i and i know there's probably plenty of dudes who are like fuck her or this or that yeah but that's fine but i don't think the general audience you know comics are comics maybe i'm still in the old
Guest:trauma of it or something.
Marc:I still get that.
Marc:I mean, I still get it too.
Marc:It's like, you know, when Sebastian goes on there and does his bit, you know, the whatever.
Marc:He's funny.
Marc:But I'm like, I know it's not so much they're not going to like me.
Marc:It's sort of like, I'm not what they're planning on.
Marc:And I'm going to go out there.
Guest:Isn't that what's so fun about it, though?
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Obviously, like...
Guest:our fans are like amazing.
Guest:And when, you know, I'm just not under the illusion that someone's my fan and no one else is, you know, I'm like, I still have to, you know, bring it when, you know, people come to shows, but I like doing standup for people that weren't there to see me.
Marc:Of course, that's a real job.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like I kind of like it where I'm like, Sebastian just murdered or Marin just murdered.
Guest:Like, here we go.
Guest:This is not what they signed up for, but let's see if I can get them.
Marc:Most of the time we can follow each other.
Marc:I think, you know, I'm not hard to follow really, but Sebastian can be.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, he's kind of the only one, I think, right now.
Guest:Well, I feel like when Joey Diaz was at the store, that was a I would like stretch before I went on.
Guest:Joey, it was always like, Jesus Christ, man, like people get up and just leave.
Marc:But I think that, yeah, I just I mean, the whole tone of the store has changed since then.
Guest:Yeah, I definitely just don't want to get in the habit of like, I kill and if you guys don't get it, mine does.
Marc:No, I like going out and getting them.
Marc:But my jokes right now, it's always with me.
Marc:It's sort of like, I'll just do this stuff that I know everyone can relate to.
Marc:My dad's dementia.
Marc:I'm not going to go out there and sort of talk about anything cute.
Marc:I don't have that go-to, this will always work bit.
Guest:You just have a buoyancy about you right now.
Guest:That's really interesting.
Marc:Yeah, you too.
Marc:What is that about?
Guest:I don't know, maybe we had a brush with death over the pandemic, and then we had... I didn't have a brush with death.
Marc:Someone died, but I didn't have a personal brush with death.
Marc:Did you have a brush with death?
Guest:Well, I just mean with just like the beginning of the pandemic, I think when we were wiping down our groceries, and it was just like, you know... Well, let's go back again.
Marc:So, you have all this success and everything, but I just remember there were times where, it might have been during the pandemic or right before, where people were like, is she okay?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So it was never like, fuck her.
Marc:I hope she fails.
Marc:It's like, what's going on with Whitney?
Marc:I'm like, I don't know.
Marc:Tell me about it.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I dyed my hair blue and everyone like lost their minds.
Marc:But you dyed your hair blue.
Marc:You were sitting on hoses.
Marc:You were in mud.
Marc:It was.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, what did you fucking think was going to happen?
Guest:A lot of people blew their brains out, too.
Guest:I'm the fucking sick one.
Guest:A lot of people were doing Zoom.
Guest:I didn't do one Zoom comedy show.
Marc:Me neither.
Guest:I would like.
Marc:I didn't do one outdoor one.
Guest:People that were doing Zoom comedy shows were like, what's wrong with Whitney?
Guest:Like, what the fuck is wrong with me?
Guest:I dyed my hair a bunch of different colors because all my friends were losing their jobs as hair artists, and I was like, yeah, why not have fucking blue, purple, pink hair?
Guest:Why the fuck not?
Marc:No, I get it, yeah.
Guest:You know, but I think that, um,
Guest:And then I got COVID really bad and I probably should not have been on social media when I was on COVID and edibles and stuff.
Guest:So that probably had something to do with it.
Guest:And then also, it was also just like the pandemic.
Guest:And I was like, when else are we going to be able to be this?
Guest:This is the only opportunity I'm going to have to ever have a childhood.
Guest:And I went for it.
Guest:And it was interesting to watch how upset people got about it.
Guest:I was like, is this because I'm just in my 30s and childless and I'm not supposed to have much fun?
Marc:I didn't feel upset.
Marc:You know, I think my innate was sort of like concern.
Guest:But what was the concern that I'm I was actually smiling for the first time.
Marc:The concern was is like, no, whenever this happens, because it's happened before in our business and you reach a certain age where you're sort of like, is this a manic episode?
Guest:yeah is she you know what i mean like you know but you're i can understand what you're saying and i wasn't judging but it was concerned though i think it's interesting no i think it's interesting because i think i i i got a lot of that and i don't know you know it was interesting because a lot of people that were judgy about it i was like you've always been fucking mean to me like you've always been shitty to me yeah i might be having a manic episode because everyone in this fucking business has been so shitty to me it'd be weird if i didn't have one who's it
Guest:And it's then pronounced by the fact that now, just because my hair is blue, you've decided I'm on meth.
Marc:I think it was Adderall.
Guest:I took Adderall to write my book.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:How was that?
Marc:When's the book?
Marc:Is it out?
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:This was years ago.
Guest:My book came out on the day of the Vegas shooting.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:Good timing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I had a book come out in the same month as 9-11.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:Really.
Marc:I still haven't made the $30,000 back that they paid me up for.
Guest:Wait.
Guest:Were you scheduled to do press and then you couldn't because of 9-11?
Marc:I don't remember how did we push it out.
Guest:All the book was the publisher's office in one of the buildings?
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:But it was just around that time, I think.
Marc:And it was the Jerusalem Syndrome.
Marc:Books are terrible.
Guest:Terrible.
Marc:Truly.
Marc:I just don't.
Marc:It takes everything you have.
Marc:Usually at the level we're at, you'll get a good offer and you'll take it.
Marc:But I knew going into the last book I did, we're never making that money back.
Marc:Never making that money back.
Guest:I think the best thing was transcribing your interviews.
Marc:Those are good.
Guest:That's a good book.
Marc:But even that should have been better.
Marc:Wonderful.
Marc:Sold better.
Guest:But that's so much better than sitting down and writing something because you're not overthinking it.
Marc:So you took Adderall during the book writing.
Guest:Yeah, that was ages ago.
Guest:But I've been prescribed Adderall to sleep before because I have a little bit of mania.
Guest:I have such bad ADD and mania.
Marc:Is that what it is?
Marc:So you have mania without the bottom?
Marc:No depression?
Guest:I'll answer that in a second.
Guest:But it annoys me when people insult you without even an understanding of what they're saying.
Guest:So someone's like, oh, she's so manic, she must be on Adderall.
Guest:When you have ADD, Adderall actually calms you down.
Guest:It doesn't make you manic.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So you don't even know the science behind your insult, which also really fucking... But also, hold on.
Marc:I think people were genuinely concerned.
Guest:Everyone in L.A.
Guest:is on... These are people that are microdosing LSD four times a day.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I'm not one of those people.
Marc:But I see, like, I have rose-colored glasses on.
Marc:I'm not on the pulse like you.
Marc:I'm not talking to the monsters.
Marc:I'm talking to you.
Guest:But you're also...
Marc:hitting me at a time where it's the first time I've decided like I'm just going to start standing up for myself because I like take so much shit and I'm happy to I like really don't care from just general like you just talking about social media platforms like vague you know where's the shit coming from I still we haven't really isolated that but I'm hearing a lot about the shit you're taking
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:Is it on Twitter?
Marc:Or is it on?
Guest:Because I don't think you're gaslighting me.
Guest:There's a pretty, I think that since I've publicly failed a little bit, people are like, oh, she's had, she's been humbled.
Guest:Like, we don't have.
Marc:But where do you see this?
Marc:On social media?
Marc:Or like, you know, like I'm.
Guest:People also like love telling me.
Marc:They do?
Marc:They'll tell you to your face?
Guest:People will be like, hey, they're just jealous.
Guest:Like, hey, don't worry about them.
Guest:Can I tell you something?
Guest:Every comedian that's successful, other comedians hate them.
Guest:It's like, this is just... And you're like, what?
Guest:People love telling me that, too.
Guest:People will be like, hey, I just want you to know I defend you.
Guest:I'm like, cool.
Guest:So I have no idea.
Guest:I'm in this weird paranoid bubble where I probably have no clue.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:But now you're standing up for yourself.
Guest:Not standing up for myself, just pushing back.
Guest:Because I do the roasts and stuff, and I think nothing's funnier than calling a skinny man a girl a crackhead.
Guest:I would be the first to do it.
Guest:But I think that it gets tricky within the podcast format when you're like, oh, wait, I could make a joke to diffuse that.
Guest:I'm like, yeah, because I'm a drug addict.
Guest:Or I have to actually...
Guest:like not be a punching bag and like respond thoughtfully.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Well, yeah, but also if it's not coming at you like a roast and just sort of like this weird kind of condescending concern.
Guest:People like, hey, because I have people in my family that are legitimately on drugs in a way that is like a daily, is that person still alive?
Guest:So it's like when people are like, oh, so she's on drugs.
Guest:I'm like, if you only knew.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:how much I'm not on drugs given what I come from.
Marc:Can I ask you a question?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:You wouldn't have to leave it in if you don't want to, but I think your sister DM'd me once or twice.
Guest:Yes, I'm sure she did.
Guest:I'm really sorry about that.
Marc:We don't have to talk about that.
Guest:No, no, no, but it's like, I'm so sorry.
Guest:Yeah, that's a nightmare.
Guest:I'm sorry that happened.
Marc:It's okay.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Guest:No, it's okay.
Marc:No, I just, it's like- I'm so glad someone's using the Kleenex.
Guest:Yeah, so I do have a... I think people are a little less hard on me now because people have started learning about that situation.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Sorry.
Guest:No, I'm so sorry.
Marc:I derailed everything.
Guest:No, it's just like... It's so fucking embarrassing.
Guest:I just don't... It's like...
Guest:And I'm glad you brought it up, but I think that I'm almost at a place where I like talking about how mean people have been to me, and I know I'm putting people in a situation where they have to go like, no, they're not people.
Marc:I'm really not trying to get... Look, and I know, because we used to have a comment board on the old website, and any time a woman comedian would come on my show, it was relentless.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:And I couldn't even understand it.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:And by the way... So that's just there all the time.
Guest:100%, which I actually have no umbrage with.
Guest:I mean, I'm sure people do it to guys, too.
Guest:I've done Rogan.
Marc:No, it's bad.
Guest:I've done Rogan.
Guest:I've had docs.
Guest:I've had people show up at my house.
Guest:But I think that, to me, the reason I like talking about being polarizing or not being everyone's cup of tea, people either fuck with me or they don't.
Guest:And I'm kind of okay with that.
Guest:I know how I...
Guest:operating when I'm don't like someone I know exactly why yeah they're holding a mirror up to me I'm jealous of that person this person has something I don't have or this person is doing it the fucking easy way and I did it the fucking hard way and fuck this person like I and I didn't have to do it the hard way I chose to do it that way like yeah I am clear for the most part when I am
Guest:activated by someone or, oh, this person is hot and cold.
Guest:That's how my mom was.
Guest:That's why I'm magnetically in love with this person.
Guest:And I also roll my eyes at tryhards.
Guest:I'm a tryhard, but I'm embarrassed about it.
Guest:So I'm like, oh, look at this fucking tryhard.
Guest:Mulaney's wearing a suit.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I'm like, yeah, if I was doing arenas, I would totally wear a fucking gorgeous suit.
Guest:I want what you have.
Guest:Got it.
Guest:But I think that I like talking about it because what I realized that is so,
Guest:like i almost have sympathy for the people that need to hate me to feel good about themselves because i think the funnier thing is like i just kind of started finding out about it yeah like it didn't even hurt me because i'm you know i think like a lot of us like i'm so inherently heartbroken like as a person that like nothing hurts me yeah like it's really hard to hurt me yeah and
Guest:And maybe that's why I think a lot of the time where I'm like, oh, give it to me.
Guest:I can take it.
Guest:Don't give it to Laura Bites.
Guest:Don't give it to me.
Guest:Don't give it to Esther.
Guest:Don't give it to Andy.
Guest:I can take it.
Guest:So I think I tend to kind of go with the Tim Dillons and Rogan.
Guest:I'm like, just make fun of me.
Guest:I'll be the punchline.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:I do the roasts.
Guest:I'm used to this.
Guest:I'm weirdly bulletproof because I have such an inherently broken heart.
Guest:But yeah, so that's why I don't take it too personally.
Marc:But with all that self-awareness then in terms of why you resent people and where you're at in your life, I mean, what about that broken heart?
Marc:Are you able to have a vulnerability that's positive?
Guest:It's hard because and maybe you relate to this because I went through losing someone a couple of years ago as well.
Guest:Not the same situation.
Guest:I can't imagine.
Guest:But there's something wild that happens when like the Damocles sword has fallen and the shoe has dropped where like no one has any leverage with you.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:That's true.
Guest:I'm going to leave.
Guest:You're like, are you going to leave?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You're not going to get this job.
Guest:Am I not going to get the job?
Marc:You don't give a fuck.
Guest:There's something kind of amazing about it in freeing because I see so many people.
Marc:It's liberating about the heartbreak.
Guest:Well, I see so many people where the worst is yet to come for them.
Guest:And I'm like, wait, your dad hasn't died yet?
Guest:oh shit, I feel bad for you.
Guest:I've already had to walk through that and I get to move through the world in a way, because there's something about that kind of grief and that kind of pain that's weirdly liberating, not that I would wish on it.
Marc:I think that's true though and I think it's something that everyone's got coming.
Marc:Both my parents are still alive actually, oddly.
Marc:Isn't that weird?
Marc:Nuts.
Marc:It's not going great.
Marc:Are they close by?
Marc:No.
Marc:My dad's in Albuquerque.
Marc:My mom's in Florida.
Guest:Do you see them off him?
Marc:I go to see him.
Marc:Yeah, I'm showing up for him somehow.
Marc:Yeah, even though it was fucked up and weird with us.
Marc:But, you know, it's fine.
Guest:Something that really helped me was just asking my primary caretakers questions.
Guest:Because it never occurred to me.
Guest:And the forgiveness is, I think you said, what makes you happier?
Guest:You said something to the fact that when I can forgive people, that's my new drug.
Guest:I get high on forgiveness.
Marc:When you can really do it.
Guest:When you can really, I forgive others not because they deserve forgiveness.
Marc:But can you do it in your heart?
Guest:I can.
Guest:I do.
Guest:I did.
Guest:Does it take work?
Guest:I did an eight month attachment strategy course with this guy, George Haas.
Guest:He used to be at that place against the stream, which I think closed this place in L.A.
Guest:But you I've always struggled with meditating.
Guest:I know most people don't have time.
Guest:I get fucking bored.
Marc:OK, so the name of the.
Guest:His name is George Haas, H-A-A-S.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:And he does, he helps you figure out your like attachment strategy, which I'm sure you know yours.
Marc:Nothing.
Marc:What does it mean?
Guest:So there's a couple attachment strategies, fearful avoidant, preoccupied.
Marc:Like love addiction?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:But everyone's secure attachment is one, which probably isn't.
Marc:You're withholding or you're not the other one.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So it's like, if you're preoccupied, I might be fearful avoidant.
Guest:If you're fearful avoidant, I might be dismissive.
Guest:You know, so everyone's got a different sort of strategy that has worked for them.
Marc:A different way of loving.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or conflict.
Guest:No, conflict.
Marc:I know.
Guest:Of like if there's conflict.
Guest:And then the love language, mine is just actions and acts of service, which is very few people's.
Guest:Words mean literally nothing to me.
Marc:But also like what really becomes the tricky thing about it is like when are you experiencing, you know, a vulnerability and a love
Marc:that is genuine and that you can trust because all this other dancing around it i mean all that stuff after a certain point it seems like you've kind of landed on that it's just these patterns that we engage in to avoid it i've never i feel kind of lucky for this i have never viewed um partnering as something that would be forever i've never i've literally never i guess i saw so many divorces as a kid like
Guest:No, I feel that.
Marc:I feel that.
Guest:I was like, two years?
Guest:That's awesome.
Marc:Sure, yeah.
Guest:I've never been, like, thought a relationship was a failure.
Guest:Like, I've never looked at it that way.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Because staying in it would be such a bigger failure if it's wrong.
Marc:Yeah, I've never thought about forever until I want to get out.
Marc:It's like, this is going on forever.
Guest:To me, I'm like, if this goes for a year, we're winners.
Guest:If this goes for two years.
Marc:Yeah, I don't have that.
Marc:But lately, I just judge it on like, is this easy and okay?
Marc:I mean, is this satisfying?
Marc:Because there's some part of me that maybe I'm cynical, but there is some part of me that I'm like, I might never get to whatever it is that people are trying to get.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:or you might have it already but maybe but i i do know when i'm capable of being open and holding it open and i have you know whatever my broken heart will enable but sometimes it's just a little bit at a time or whatever but i'm not one of those people that's going to be like selfless moving through the world it's just not the you know i'm so sorry i started crying on your podcast why i'm not okay i don't want you to feel bad i don't want you to feel bad i think that's all it is
Marc:What, that you have a heart and emotion?
Guest:No, I just think seeing a woman cry, from what I understand, is very stressful for men.
Guest:Or very erotic or hot.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I don't want to get an erection.
Marc:Okay, I'll fight it.
Guest:You know what else it is?
Guest:I think I'm just like...
Guest:I think that I like to just arrange my life around doing things that need to be done so that I'm not thinking about what I should be doing.
Guest:So I think for me, the idea of like, am I in the right thing?
Guest:Am I not?
Guest:I is one of the program tools I use.
Guest:And I'm fine talking about being an Al-Anon adult show of alcoholics, which is like, I will schedule my worrying.
Guest:If I'm in a relationship and I'm like, oh, should I be in?
Guest:Instead of questioning it every single day, which is my default, is this good?
Guest:Is this bad?
Guest:Wait a second.
Guest:Why did he just say that?
Guest:Wait, what?
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Your craft?
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Well, now I have to rethink everything.
Marc:But do you do that really?
Marc:You're spinning around that much all day long?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:The tiniest thing.
Guest:Oh, of course.
Guest:Vacillating, vacillating all day.
Guest:Am I safe?
Guest:Am I safe?
Guest:Is this right?
Guest:Is that?
Guest:Am I still respect this?
Guest:Oh, it's constant.
Guest:But I am also able to, I did go on 10 milligrams of Prozac, which was a total miracle for me personally.
Guest:At least for now because of the.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Perseverating, yeah, just the unnecessary perseverating that benefited no one, which to answer your question about the depression thing, I never, I don't believe I have depression.
Guest:I have many, don't be jealous, I have many things, but apparently one of the symptoms of depression, which Gary Goldman helped me understand, was also...
Guest:Going on a loop.
Guest:So having a conversation with Marc Maron, getting in my car and go, why the fuck did you say that?
Guest:Why did you fucking do that?
Guest:Now he thinks you're an idiot.
Guest:Okay, so next time you see him, you should say this.
Guest:What if you send him flowers on your birthday?
Guest:Just trying to control your perception of me and the afterburn.
Marc:That's part of depression?
Guest:That is one of them.
Guest:Yeah, that kind of like, because it's keeping you insulated and isolated and from, I don't know, depression, it seems like it's such a giant thing.
Yeah.
Marc:Right, what did you learn from the attachment strategy guy?
Guest:Couple things.
Guest:You would, in a month at a time, forgive everyone in your family in your meditations instead of just being like, I'm gonna think about nothing.
Guest:You would do like, I forgive you, you forgive me, I forgive myself.
Marc:Is there a lot of crying involved in this?
Guest:Not a ton.
Guest:Only on your podcast.
Guest:I haven't cried in a while.
Guest:That was wild.
Guest:That's good.
Guest:That was crazy.
Guest:It's a lot.
Guest:So let's say you have an aunt, Ruth, who maybe witnessed your abuse and did nothing.
Guest:Those little resentments where we don't even realize we hold it.
Guest:That wasn't even the abuser, but they witnessed it and didn't do anything about it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And sometimes we even matter at those people, but we can't really articulate it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so like uncovering those resentments, because sometimes we're like the abuser or the person that was dysfunctional.
Guest:We found compassion for it.
Guest:It's like, oh, they had addiction.
Guest:They were an alcoholic or people hurt people.
Guest:Like, you know, they didn't have the tools.
Guest:They got it honestly.
Guest:But then the person that witnessed it, what the fuck was their deal?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They didn't fucking do anything.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's probably an unrecovered Al-Anon, too.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So it's like.
Guest:So forgiving even those people that you didn't even realize how drunk with rage, you know, intoxified by anger you were with them or couldn't have any kind of like a relationship with them because there was that sort of wedge.
Guest:Why the fuck didn't you do anything?
Guest:Like, where were you?
Guest:And even though they were in their own adult child responses and then you forgive yourself.
Guest:That's like a big thing.
Guest:I know it sounds dorky.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like when I did my amends step in ACA, the first person I had to write amends to was myself.
Guest:is like, you know.
Marc:And that all holds?
Guest:Yeah, the being hard on myself, the self-depriving.
Guest:I mean, a big thing with Al-Anons is, like, you know, we don't floss, but we're helping other people move.
Guest:Like, we don't take care of ourselves in, like, very basic ways.
Guest:So when I got into Al-Anon, it was, like, a complete reparenting process.
Guest:Like, going to the dentist, going to the doctor.
Marc:Right, because you let yourself get drained.
Guest:Meanwhile, I'm, like, helping a guy move, and he's...
Guest:separated or not you know and like we're obsessing you know the three m's mothering micromanaging and martyring on other people yet we're not flossing our own fucking teeth you know so i really had to like reparent that way so yeah that did that did help me to to sort of um apologize to myself for like i'm sorry the way i treated you because i treated you the way you were treated yeah and i parented i took care of myself the way i was parented that's all i knew yeah you know it's like i didn't even occur to me to like make my bed and like you know just
Marc:I did that stuff early in recovery.
Marc:I was taught to make my bed.
Marc:So I do that.
Marc:And I do that every day.
Marc:And I brush my teeth no matter what.
Marc:And I exercise.
Marc:I cried last night.
Marc:when I watched Days of Wine and Roses.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:With Jack Lemmon and Lou Redmond.
Marc:I know it.
Guest:I remember when I first went to Al-Anon, my sponsor told me to watch it.
Marc:And it's the best AA movie, and it's so fucking on the money.
Marc:And it was like, it was devastating.
Marc:This woman I've been hanging out with, she had never seen it, and I don't know why it was on Criterion, and I'm like, let's watch it.
Marc:And I'm just sort of like, oh my God, it just gutted me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it gutted me at the same time that I get gutted when I listen to people tell their stories in the program.
Marc:You know, when Jack Klugman shows up and says, you don't have to live this way.
Marc:I'm like, oh my God.
Guest:You don't have to feel like that ever again.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I'm so glad, though, that my brain has been washed like that.
Marc:Like I remember being in the rooms and some guys talking about how, you know, when he first came in, he's like, you know, he's yelling at his sponsor.
Marc:It's like, this is bullshit, man.
Marc:This is brainwashing.
Marc:And his sponsor said, your brain needs to be washed.
Guest:It needs to be cleaned.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:But like, you know, it's really kind of moving that something in your life, however you put it together, has that kind of impact.
Marc:And it's deeper than a decision.
Marc:It's like in there.
Yeah.
Guest:And I do a lot of, you know, things, you know, to reinforce that.
Guest:But I think that, like, ultimately, I'm an energy conservationist first.
Guest:And, you know, the equine therapy stuff, it's a gala liberty training with horses.
Guest:It's basically like equine therapy.
Guest:Do you ride in the horses a lot?
Yeah.
Guest:We don't it's not the idea is you don't just get on a horse and ride it.
Marc:Do you ride horses?
Guest:It's if it's consensual.
Guest:I grew up doing it the wrong way.
Guest:Like just you jump on a horse and it's it belongs to you and it does what you want and it's there to serve you only.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it doesn't have a specific personality.
Guest:That's why they call horses.
Guest:They're broken.
Guest:They break their spirits.
Guest:You know, so we unbreak horses to get their spirit back.
Marc:But you're a horse rider.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:I mean, no, but I mean, so I will know how to write.
Guest:Yes, I do.
Guest:Yes, that that is correct.
Guest:But I choose not to unless it's consensual with them.
Guest:So you could actually do a lot more amazing things with horses if you don't just jump on that.
Marc:How do you develop a consensual relationship with a horse?
Guest:The same way you kind of would with anyone is you only do 50% of the work and make sure they choose to be around you.
Guest:So horses are such an incredible way to learn about yourself because they don't give a shit what you do.
Marc:It's a fairly impractical therapy animal, though, like for traveling on planes and whatnot.
Guest:There has been a mini horse on JetBlue, I feel like.
Guest:But but, you know, it's we're ultimately, you know, a prey animal.
Guest:So and they're all about conserving energy.
Guest:So the real reason that horses if you're like going in and I don't know if this horse likes me, I want to get a picture with it.
Guest:What if this horse won't let me ride it?
Guest:It just wants to get away from you because you're just exhausting.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And it doesn't know when its next meal is going to be because it's relying on grass.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So you're just to.
Guest:And they're so clear.
Guest:They're so black and white.
Guest:You know, they don't go, well, I need to talk to Mark Maron because he's famous.
Guest:And what if he helps me get a TV show?
Guest:So I'm just going to stay here.
Marc:Do you find that the horses want to see you fail?
Guest:I can, I thought you were going to be so on the same page, but I'm so like blown away that maybe not so much anymore.
Guest:Maybe I need to catch up to this.
Guest:Like I just had this last special that came out.
Guest:I was bracing for the like backlash and there like was none.
Guest:And I was like, oh, maybe I'm out of the woods on
Marc:But no, no, I was kidding about the horses.
Marc:But I mean, in the sense that like because you say that they are sensitive to exhausting energy.
Marc:So you're saying that part of your 50 percent is to somehow get to that level where that is not the case.
Guest:Be someone that would be calming to be around.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So they're only real.
Guest:The only way you can really cajole them is with serenity.
Guest:Whereas dogs, you can use treats.
Guest:Cats, you can use treats.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But horses, they can get food without you with grass.
Guest:So they don't need that.
Guest:The only reward is serenity with them.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Peace.
Guest:So if you can't create some kind of like energetic peace within yourself, they don't want to be near you.
Guest:So a lot of times just in the beginning when you start with someone.
Marc:And being terrified is is not.
Guest:Well, but they don't know you're terrified of them.
Guest:They just think you're terrified, so they're like, oh, there's a bobcat close by, so now we're all stressed out.
Marc:Right, but if you're afraid of horses, they're gonna read that as like, I don't need this shit.
Guest:No, but also they don't know why you'd be afraid of them, because they don't have the intent to hurt you.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So if you get too close to them, you're hurting yourself, which is a whole other conversation.
Guest:Because it's like, to me, one of the most amazing metaphors for codependence and entrenchment.
Guest:Because we want to like snuggle a horse and then it steps on us.
Guest:And we're like, hey, fuck.
Guest:It's like, no, same thing with relationships.
Guest:It's like my, you know, I know we're not on video, but my therapist always says relationships should be like this, not like this.
Guest:If you hold sand in the palm of your hand like this straight out, you can hold it forever.
Guest:But if you hold it like this, you're going to lose it.
Marc:It's going to go through your fingers.
Guest:So I had to literally, I was so confused about the proximity that was healthy for intimacy.
Guest:I would get so close to someone dangerous.
Guest:I would get in cages with tigers and hurt myself and then be like, why did you hurt me?
Guest:It's like, well, why the fuck did you get in a cage with a tiger?
Guest:You know, that's what Al-Anon is.
Guest:That's what codependent relationships are.
Guest:You fucking hurt me.
Guest:Well, you knew I was a tiger.
Guest:That's why you like me.
Guest:You know, it's that dance.
Marc:Human magnet syndrome.
Marc:And it's also not real intimacy.
Marc:It's just, it's like this weird kind of like contrition and rage and, you know, forcing intimacy.
Marc:Adrenaline junkie shit.
Guest:Oversharing, trauma bonding.
Guest:I mean, it's just recreating your childhood circumstances like Harville Hendricks 101.
Guest:That book is amazing.
Guest:Getting the love you want when you're just magnetically attracted to someone.
Marc:Where are you at with this shit now?
Guest:Dude, I am so fucking... I remember my therapist said to me once, because... How many therapists do you have?
Guest:I have one therapist, and I don't even go that off.
Marc:I mean, I do... I'm not judgment.
Marc:I mean, I just didn't... I mean, how many have you been to?
Marc:You've been with a guy a long time?
Guest:I feel like a woman.
Guest:Yeah, I've been with her maybe 15 years.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Guest:Yeah, she's amazing.
Guest:Put me an Al-Anon.
Guest:Her whole thing is like, I don't want you coming back here.
Marc:I want you to get better.
Guest:Like, why are you, you know?
Guest:So I am a 12-step bitch.
Guest:I'm into free medicine.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because... And also...
Marc:Free medicine?
Guest:Free medicine.
Marc:What does that mean?
Guest:Well, just 12-star programs.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:I got it.
Marc:Free medicine.
Guest:When I first went into programs, there were three things that made me understand why I needed to keep coming back.
Guest:Because I did not want to keep coming back.
Guest:I thought I was perfect.
Guest:I'm the nicest person alive.
Guest:All I do is help people.
Guest:I know my intentions.
Guest:I just want to, you know, make everything perfect and cook everyone and help everyone all the time.
Guest:And I didn't realize the pathological thoughtfulness.
Guest:I didn't understand the whole people pleasing is a form of assholery.
Guest:I didn't understand that if your motives aren't clean, you're actually just manipulating somebody.
Guest:And you're so terrified of abandonment that you're going to be useful to them and nice to them so that they'll think you're a good person.
Guest:Just be the good person that you are.
Guest:Like, what is, you know, pathological gift giving, pathological...
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:Helpfulness, all that shit.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I have good news and bad news because I first went into Al-Anon basically to be like, oh, I'm going to go learn how to get my family members to stop drinking.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:This is going to be so helpful.
Marc:So when was that?
Marc:That must have been a long time ago.
Guest:Yeah, it was like 13 years ago or something.
Guest:I was like, oh, this is going to be great.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I'll fix them.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:I have the whole, I'm going to get all the tools I need to get them sober.
Marc:The book to help them out.
Guest:They're going to love this.
Guest:This is going to go.
Guest:And someone, the guy that was sharing, he went, okay, I have good news and bad news.
Guest:The good news is that the war is over.
Guest:The bad news is that you lost.
Guest:And I just like, as soon as I got it.
Guest:And then he said something where he's like, you know, codependence, we have a pathological thoughtfulness.
Guest:We're pathologically thoughtful.
Guest:And I was like, I understand what that means.
Guest:That's what I am.
Guest:All I do is think about how to make someone's life better.
Guest:And then by the time I see them, I'm like, why the fuck?
Guest:oh, this is how you're gonna act after I've spent the whole day thinking about you and how to make your life better and all stuff they didn't ask for.
Guest:And it was just like, that's it.
Guest:It's like we break our own hearts.
Guest:We set ourselves up.
Marc:Oh, that's interesting.
Marc:That's our comfort zone.
Guest:We create circumstances where there is no other choice to be the victim.
Guest:So it's like, if you're not gonna hurt me, I'm gonna create it so that just you are hurting me.
Guest:I'm gonna recreate my childhood circumstances and this victim role, because that's really comfortable for me.
Guest:I know how to do it.
Guest:You know, being treated well and like that is suspicious to me because also when you're raised by Al-Anons or any kind of Al-Anonism in your family, kindness is suspicious.
Marc:It's exploitive.
Marc:It's like, well, you try to manipulate me.
Marc:Why are you trying to?
Marc:Why are you helping?
Marc:That's interesting.
Guest:Well, but yeah, because it's like, oh, you screamed at me yesterday.
Guest:Now you're like all nice and cheery and trying to make up for it.
Marc:Well, yeah, I've been trying to figure that out, too.
Marc:Because I talk about my parents not really being capable of selfless love or nurturing, but they did worry constantly.
Marc:But it was more sort of like, I hope nothing happens to him, because I don't know how that would affect me.
Guest:How could they?
Guest:I mean, have you gone into all the family constellation stuff or the ancestral trauma stuff?
Guest:That really helped me.
Marc:A bit.
Marc:I mean, I get it.
Marc:And I can feel that I'm not controlled by a lot of that stuff anymore.
Marc:And I know where I'm at and what I'm willing to risk and what I'm not, in a way.
Guest:You know what I really appreciate about you?
Guest:I said at least your fears are or the things you worry about are actually happening.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like you're like we're running out of water.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:Like that is actually true.
Guest:And I know you know all this.
Guest:But I was talking to someone the other day because I'm working on this dog food that takes less water to make because a lot like meat is, you know.
Guest:One of the biggest reasons we're having this drought, almonds and almond milk and avocados and that shit, too.
Guest:But every cow is two hundred and sixty thousand gallons of water or something.
Guest:So it's like half cricket protein, whatever.
Guest:And and so I was talking to this guy who's like works in the Water Commission in California.
Guest:I was like, so the drought like Howard, like what's this going to be like?
Guest:Are we going to have are we going to have like you can only shower three days a week?
Guest:Like there's going to start to be like laws rolling out.
Guest:They're going to start just cutting your water.
Guest:And so he goes, oh, you know what?
Guest:I would put a pin in that and I would actually start worrying about the fact that half of the world's fertilizer is in Russia.
Guest:And next year, if we don't get it to South American America, we'll be in a legitimate famine.
Marc:Oh, famine, right.
Marc:Yeah, like a legitimate famine.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then a couple of years ago, I was very in deep about how we're running out of sand.
Marc:Sand?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:For...
Guest:So China, all these countries that are building to build glass, you have to use sand.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And we're literally running out of sand because sand is made by rivers over thousands of years.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I got obsessed with in India, there's this like sand mafia and they send people to the bottom of the ocean to get sand and then they just zoom off.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:They take the sand and just leave them.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:So you got into the sand problem.
Guest:I get into these holes like you.
Marc:You keep going, yeah.
Guest:Because I like to at least, I can build self-worth by going, well, at least you're worrying about something that's happening instead of like, does so-and-so like me?
Marc:Yeah, I tend to, but I get really obsessed with dumb little shit.
Marc:Like today I was Googling two-hole buttons.
Marc:What do you mean?
Marc:What do you mean?
Marc:The wooden spoon thing is a real thing.
Marc:I just walk into something.
Marc:I have these Lacoste shirts that I've had forever, and I didn't wear them for years, but now I'm sort of wearing them, and one of them is missing a button, and it's a very specific button on a Lacoste polo.
Marc:So I'm like, well, where the fuck do you get these?
Marc:And my first thought was like, well, why don't you reach out to Lacoste?
Marc:So I emailed Lacoste and said, where do I get the two hole buttons on your polo shirt?
Marc:I've not heard back from Lacoste.
Marc:So then I realized, like, maybe just look up two hole buttons.
Marc:So this morning I was looking up two hole buttons, but it's like, how big are these buttons?
Marc:So then I had to download an online tape measure because I don't have a fucking ruler to measure the button.
Marc:So now I've got a 10 millimeter two hole button, but I want it to be sunken a little bit so it looks like the buttons on the shirt like anyone would give a fuck.
Guest:You would measure a button with a ruler.
Guest:ruler i did i measured a button with a ruler but see but i do that well you got to get but i love that about you i think that this is also why you're such a brilliant comedian because you approach a joke the same way you approach that fucking button you know ongoing conversation it's yeah you know like eventually more will be resolved and and that's why most of my jokes don't finish themselves for a year or two because they need to come together with the other stuff the last joke on a joke yeah i mean or like the last joke on a scene at least we call a button
Marc:Right.
Marc:Oh, that's funny.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:You know, but like my things are always evolving.
Marc:But so all that aside and outside of the famine...
Guest:But I'm the same.
Guest:I will worry about, I've got this.
Marc:But I accept that about myself because it's better than, you know, it's better than crying sometimes.
Guest:And also 2,000 years ago, you would have been the most valuable person in the tribe.
Marc:The guy like Googling buttons?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Get the button Googler over here because we're in trouble.
Guest:You were the guy that wouldn't fucking let shit slide.
Guest:You were the guy that was like, this is a tiger print.
Guest:And they're like, no, it's not.
Guest:You're like, I'm telling you, a tiger lives here.
Marc:But I do that for like, you know, maybe a couple hours and be like, well, I'm leaving.
Guest:And then you just go, I'm rich, why don't I buy a new lacrosse?
Marc:Lacrosse, what's it called?
Marc:I could, yeah, the lacoste.
Marc:But no, but it's just sort of like, if you guys are going to sit here and fucking not say this is going to tie you.
Marc:That's why I fucking, that's the only reason I applied for permanent residency, was because I needed to take some sort of action that would make me feel better.
Marc:If we're going to just be out running climate,
Marc:I don't have kids, and it looks like my money will hold up until I die.
Marc:So if the thing is, if I've earned a certain amount of peace of mind, why not go find it?
Marc:And if that means trying to outrun climate, then that's just the way it's gonna be, and fascism.
Marc:So in my mind, I've been a lot better since I filed that application.
Marc:It may take two or three years to process, and I might not get in, but I know I've taken an action where that escape fantasy is viable, and it's based in reality.
Marc:I'm not making shit up.
Marc:When Sebastian gets up there, he's like, is anyone really worried about water?
Marc:Do you actually shower like you're running out of water?
Marc:I'm like, yes, and we all should be.
Marc:I don't, whatever.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I think that I see what you mean.
Guest:It's taken me a long time to not internalize comedians' jokes.
Guest:If I did that, I would just have jumped off a building by now.
Guest:You know, like I always assume that whatever anyone's doing on stage is some exaggerated thing.
Guest:Sure, of course.
Guest:Because otherwise, every time someone gets off stage, I'll be like, what the fuck?
Marc:But there is a certain amount of denial and there is a certain amount of wrong mindedness that I can identify.
Marc:And I'm certainly no comedy cop and I enjoy people's acts.
Marc:But sometimes people are like, right?
Marc:And I'm like, no, not really.
Marc:So what is the new special just come out?
Guest:Just came out.
Guest:Yes, sir.
Guest:I paid for it myself and licensed it.
Marc:How's that go for you?
Guest:I think it went... It was a little bit nerve-wracking, but it seemed like that was like, okay, this is the next thing to do.
Marc:And you got all the boys to push it?
Marc:The big shot?
Marc:You got Rogan and everybody?
Guest:I went on a bunch of podcasts, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know what that... Well, I mean, but how did it make...
Guest:It's doing well as of now from what I know, but I think the first 90 days are big.
Guest:That's what matters, I guess, to this service as of now.
Marc:So you don't get a daily download count?
Guest:No.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:I told them.
Guest:I was like, don't tell me.
Guest:Just give me the top line.
Guest:But apparently a thing that is good about it, which is honestly the best feedback I could get, is people are finishing it in the first sitting.
Marc:They have to pay for it, though, right?
Marc:if it's on netflix yeah it's just on netflix oh it's just on netflix oh so you you made it and sold it to netflix yes okay i made it on my own because it was also during the pandemic and it was like you know the and what was that deal with them so they didn't offer you a deal you said well i'll just make one and you'll put it on they're like okay okay interesting
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I could have licensed it to other places too, but it was kind of like, you know, at this time where it was like, oh, the insurance in order to shoot it right now, let's just wait until, and I was like, I can't keep doing this material.
Guest:And then I saw, you know, the last four specials I did showing up on all these other platforms.
Guest:Like, how is it on Paramount Plus?
Guest:Like, how is it on this?
Guest:Like, where are, why can't I even put these on my social media?
Marc:Jesus Christ, I can't, my show Maren, four seasons of it, you can't watch it anywhere.
Marc:So you should feel lucky.
Guest:Can you buy it back?
Marc:I think you, oh, I don't know.
Guest:Wait, I'm sure IFC will have, what was the studio?
Guest:Fox Fox 21 now I wonder I wonder if I could buy it back either You could buy it back or it's someone saving it to put on their streaming platform But I know that a show that I did on Warner Brothers is not on like Netflix or you know because I was on Netflix for a while.
Marc:Oh, that's good Yeah, I mean it definitely got some juice and you can still buy it, but you can't buy it internationally It's a weird thing.
Guest:It's very annoying
Marc:That's not on Amazon.
Guest:That's very dumb.
Marc:It was on Netflix for a while, but then it was like, not all of it was on Netflix, Europe, whatever.
Marc:It's a good question though.
Marc:I wonder if we can get it back.
Guest:I just, it's like kind of one of those things where you're like, oh, this day and age, you just want to be able to fucking put a clip.
Marc:Are you doing jokes?
Guest:See me in Columbus at the fucking whatever.
Marc:I just got onto TikTok.
Marc:I don't know what to do with it.
Guest:I do.
Guest:I've been thinking a lot about your TikTok presence.
Okay.
Marc:You just saw it?
Guest:I have.
Guest:No, just because you've been talking about it.
Guest:The only thing that I do with TikTok is it's like clips from specials, the way that we used to syndicate TV shows.
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:That's what everyone's doing now.
Marc:But do you have a service that does it?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:They cut them up and it's just like a minute in a time.
Marc:Yeah, I can get that guy.
Guest:New people will discover you that are like, that's just the new syndication.
Guest:And I don't complain about it because remember when we would make specials for Comedy Central and it would be four minutes and then a commercial.
Marc:No, I get it.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:No, I get it.
Marc:You hire the people and they can take ... I have a history of fucking content.
Marc:They can take content ... I have four or five specials.
Guest:Embarrassment of riches, the amount you have.
Marc:Kind of.
Guest:You have enough content for three years.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you just hire someone to go find the jokes and then put them up there.
Guest:And by the way, and then go, oh, this is his bit about coyotes.
Guest:There was just a coyote attack in Arizona.
Guest:So and then it's going to get in the algorithm like and then it just kind of turns into a little bit of a, you know, a Tetris game.
Guest:I mean, Carlin is literally trending on TikTok.
Marc:No, I get it.
Marc:I can understand like putting all clips up and because I'm most people don't know who I am.
Marc:Really.
Marc:That's just the reality.
Marc:You know, like I'm not like people know me, but like people don't want you to fail.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:But I'm still a thing that people could see on their TikTok and go, who the fuck is this guy?
Marc:That can happen.
Marc:There's a whole generation or two.
Guest:And I think that's a good thing.
Marc:That's what you want.
Marc:No, that's exactly.
Guest:But when they see you doing stand-up, they're like, oh, this guy's a fucking genius.
Guest:Why would someone who's 15 or 18 know us?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:And they're not going to sit down and watch an hour.
Guest:They're going to go, let me just get a taste.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:I get that.
Marc:I get that.
Marc:So I reached out to somebody.
Marc:He hasn't called me back.
Marc:He hasn't emailed me back.
Marc:Who's your company?
Marc:Same people as Jeselnik?
Guest:No, I don't think so.
Guest:I don't know who his are.
Marc:He's Nick Kroll's guy.
Marc:He just started.
Marc:So Jezelnik's like, yeah, I just started doing it.
Marc:And I'm like, who's your guy?
Marc:He's like, I got Nick Kroll's guy.
Marc:I'm like, well, can you talk to Nick Kroll guy about me?
Marc:So I email the guy.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I email the guy that, you know, that told you.
Marc:Oh, he just got back to me.
Marc:Hi, Mark.
Marc:Awesome to hear from you.
Marc:This is you in a nutshell.
Guest:People are fucking against me, man.
Guest:Oh, wait, they love me.
Guest:No, it's just...
Marc:Speaking to what you were saying, I wrote the guy.
Guest:Oh, wait, I just didn't check my email.
Marc:I wrote the guy yesterday and I was worried.
Marc:I told him about my IG and about that I just got on TikTok and it's verified.
Marc:And at the end, I said, tell me what you can do with the situation.
Marc:So then because I didn't hear back from him immediately, I'm like, maybe that was a little too forward.
Marc:Like the guy's not running a business.
Marc:But I remember why I'm nervous about asking like that.
Guest:Why?
Marc:Because one time, a million years ago, Kerry Hoffman, the guy who used to run Stand Up New York and manage... He was kind of a manager.
Marc:He managed Zach Galifianakis at the beginning, and he used to own Stand Up New York.
Marc:And now I think he became a Frank Sinatra impersonator.
Marc:But...
Marc:There was some weird thing during a period of time where I was unmanaged where he's like, or maybe Becky was just starting.
Marc:But he approached me, said, how would you like me to co-manage you with with with what's his name?
Marc:Rollins.
Marc:Henry?
Marc:No, no, no, no.
Marc:Rollins and Jaffe, the guy who used to represent Dick Cavett, Woody Allen, Jack Rollins.
Marc:He was a producer and a famous manager, Nichols and May.
Marc:He was a guy.
Marc:But at this point, though, he kind of wants to get back in the game a little bit.
Marc:He's like 100 years old, right?
Marc:And I said, well, I'd like to meet him and talk to him.
Marc:And so he has Rollins come out and see me, this old man.
Marc:He watched my stand-up, and the guy's like, yeah, it's great.
Marc:You just got to take it all the way out there.
Marc:Don't push it.
Marc:And I'm like, okay, that's pretty good advice.
Marc:And I still think about that because it's Rollins, Jack Rollins, right?
Marc:So I'm supposed to have a lunch with the two of them, right?
Marc:So I get there early and old Jack Rollins is there, the 100-year-old man.
Marc:And I just sat down without Carrie there.
Marc:And this is about management.
Marc:So I said to him, well, what can you do for me?
Marc:And then Hoffman shows up and it's an awkward meeting.
Marc:And then afterwards he's like, I should have gotten there sooner.
Marc:You can't ask a guy like that what he can do for you.
Marc:And I'm like, what?
Marc:He's like, yeah, it's not going to happen.
Guest:It's too old.
Yeah.
Marc:No, it was just like, for some reason, I wasn't looking at it correctly.
Marc:Like I was looking at it selfishly.
Marc:Like, you know, how, how are you going to help me, you know, do what, you know, I don't know what the fuck it was.
Guest:Well, that to me is just you saying like, so what's the plan?
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:I'm giving you 10% of my money.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But what else is this meeting going to be?
Marc:Right.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:He wanted to, he thought like, I was already in my thirties.
Marc:He thought he was like just getting some kid who he's going to like, you know, break.
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:That's, you were completely in the right.
Guest:That was a professional pro move.
Marc:But so when I say things like, tell me what you can do for me, I get a little like it.
Guest:The way you said it, it was funny.
Guest:What can you do with this situation?
Marc:It's self-deprecating.
Marc:Well, he got right back to me, but it was a day later.
Marc:But that's okay.
Guest:Well, this is a Saturday.
Marc:I get it, but yesterday was Friday.
Guest:And also, I'm finding email.
Guest:I check email once a day now.
Guest:I don't check it incessantly like I used to.
Guest:If I want to reach out to someone, I'll go, hey, can I text you?
Guest:And then I'll even text on my computer as if it's email.
Guest:But can I ask you a question just really quick about TikTok that helped me?
Guest:What helped me is to go, I'm not going to do lazy cheerleading and dancing.
Guest:I'm not going to try to do what they do.
Marc:I'm going to do what I'm- You're not going to do lip syncing or any of that shit?
Marc:Me neither.
Marc:I just put a minute up of kitten eating.
Guest:But what do we what are we good at?
Guest:What am I got?
Guest:I'm a fucking know-it-all like I Like like little life hacks.
Guest:Yeah, I'm like southern raised by southern aunt So it's like the biggest video I think that I've done on there so far is just me going the easiest way to cut a cake is actually just with dental floss Uh-huh, and I and then it's like, oh, it's just useful.
Guest:Yeah, we're older.
Guest:We're just useful.
Oh
Marc:Okay, that might be something.
Guest:We can be useful.
Guest:You can just be like, look, the best way to cook this is in olive oil.
Guest:It's coconut oil.
Guest:Here's why.
Guest:Like, they can be that simple.
Guest:Are we going a little longer because you feel bad for me because I cried?
Marc:No, I'm just trying to figure out how to shut you up.
Marc:Dismount.
Marc:Gracefully.
Marc:Is that it?
Guest:Ball gag.
Guest:I, it is weird when people are like, people will listen to my podcast.
Guest:I'll be like, you talk a lot.
Guest:I'm like.
Marc:It's okay.
Marc:I'm kidding.
Marc:I had a nice conversation.
Marc:I don't know what else to do.
Marc:I think we've had a nice arc.
Marc:I feel like, you know, I feel like it's finally maybe nap time.
Guest:Put me down.
Guest:Give me a tranquilizer.
Guest:No, I think the best version of your podcast is when you're having a good time and when people are just bringing out information in you.
Marc:We had a good time.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:I feel like... Don't drive away from this thinking anything.
Marc:And if there's anything you don't want in it, you tell me.
Guest:No, you do what you do.
Guest:I feel like I didn't finish a couple thoughts, but that's probably better.
Marc:Well, if you want to, you know, text me later.
Marc:I'll do it in the intro.
Marc:I heard from Whitney and she was very concerned that she left this dangling.
Marc:And we wanted to.
Guest:I know you guys are on the edge of your seat.
Marc:We needed to close this hatch.
Guest:Wanting to know where that Al-Anon meeting was.
Guest:Was it New Hampshire or Commonwealth?
Marc:She did not.
Marc:What is it?
Marc:Close the hatch on that one?
Marc:Shit.
Guest:You know what's so annoying about that?
Guest:What?
Guest:Actually, this is why I love you so much.
Guest:Because I think you and I both love it when people, not hold us accountable, but.
Guest:nothing gets past them, nothing fucking gets past you, and I love that about you, because when you can't get away with anything with someone, there's something, you just don't have to, you can just put all your fucking, take your tap shoes off.
Marc:And once it's established, you can fucking just relax.
Guest:But you know that I had a neuroscientist on my podcast, and he said, close the hatch, and I thought it was dumb when he said it, and then I said it, and of course you fucking called me out on it, and I was like, I agree that it was dumb,
Guest:But you picked it up.
Guest:And then I fucking said it.
Guest:You picked it up.
Guest:And then, of course, you fucking... You picked it up.
Guest:It's like you knew there was something inauthentic about that, and you couldn't fucking just let it go.
Guest:The worst part of it is you're fucking right.
Marc:Hey, let's close the hatch on this.
Guest:You are...
Marc:We're closing the hatch.
Marc:That's what I say.
Marc:We're doing it.
Guest:When people, here's the thing I say about you.
Guest:Last thing I say.
Marc:It's a hydraulic hatch.
Guest:If anyone is ever like thinks you're rude to them or mean to them or anyone else like Mark, I don't know.
Guest:I'm like, if he said something insulting to you, chances are it was right.
Guest:That's the problem with you.
Guest:Is it like, maybe he shouldn't have said it that way, but he was correct.
Marc:All right.
Marc:We're closing the hatch.
Marc:Love you.
Marc:Love you too.
Marc:Oh, you too.
Marc:That was exciting.
Marc:Whitney Cummings.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Always an exciting ride in terms of the conversation.
Marc:Whitney Cummings Jokes is now streaming on Netflix.
Marc:And I've got more, actually, to say about Whitney if you just hang out for a second.
Marc:So listen, we did a little something different with the bonus content on the full Marin this week.
Marc:When Whitney came over, we talked for like two hours and there were a lot of tangents and digressions and stuff that went all over the place.
Marc:So today, right alongside this episode, we released an additional 25 minutes of extra Whitney.
Marc:If you're subscribed to the full Marin, that bonus episode is sitting in your feed right now.
Marc:And if you haven't subscribed, click on the link in the episode description or go to WTFPod.com and click on WTF Plus.
Marc:Next week, we have Al Ruddy, producer of The Godfather on Monday, and Sharon Van Etten on Thursday.
Marc:ruddy was pretty exciting he's like a very much an older guy uh and uh it was it's interesting to see him get a little worked up at times you know and you could see why he was such a an effective producer and sharon van etten i've been kind of meaning to talk to for a long time and she was finally off the road and able to uh to come in and it was uh
Marc:It was good.
Marc:These are good conversations.
Marc:I'm in Tucson, Arizona at the Rialto Theater on September 16th.
Marc:Phoenix, Arizona at Stand Up Live on September 17th.
Marc:Boulder, Colorado at the Boulder Theater on September 22nd.
Marc:Fort Collins, Colorado at the Lincoln Center on September 23rd.
Marc:And Toronto, Ontario at the Queen Elizabeth Theater on September 30th and October 1st.
Marc:I'll be in London, England at the Bloomsbury Theater Saturday and Sunday, October 22nd and 23rd.
Marc:And I'll be in Dublin, Ireland at Vicar Street Wednesday, October 26th.
Marc:I have dates in November and December in Oklahoma City, Dallas, San Antonio, Houston, Eugene, Oregon, Bend, Oregon, Asheville, North Carolina, and Nashville, Tennessee.
Marc:And my HBO special taping at Town Hall in New York City is on Thursday, December 8th.
Marc:Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all dates and ticket info.
Marc:We're going to go back into the vault.
Marc:I'm not going to deny you guitar just because I'm on the road.
Marc:We're going to pull a classic guitar riff out.
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey La Fonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Boomer lives!