Episode 1360 - SG Goodman
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Mark Marin.
Marc:This is my podcast.
Marc:Welcome to it.
Marc:Thanks for hanging out.
Marc:If you're new here, welcome.
Marc:Just to hang out and listen.
Marc:You know, some of us have been here a long time.
Marc:Some of us will be talking during this.
Marc:But if you're new, it's best to just listen unless you have to, unless you really have to interject.
Marc:Go ahead.
Marc:I know that I do at times, but I won't hear you.
Marc:Today on the show, I talked to S.G.
Marc:Goodman, who I love.
Marc:Love her.
Marc:She's a singer-songwriter from Kentucky who just released her second album, Teeth Marks.
Marc:Her first album, Old Time Feeling, came out in 2020, and I got it from somewhere.
Marc:It was sent to me with some other stuff, I think, from her management company, the woman who...
Marc:Also, I think manages Jason Isbell and a few other people.
Marc:But nonetheless, I've had a relationship with that company a bit in terms of them sending me stuff.
Marc:And they sent me S.G.
Marc:Goodman's first record.
Marc:And I just listened to records, and it just struck me.
Marc:Her voice, her songwriting, the feel of the music, it just kind of leveled me.
Marc:And I've been a fan ever since.
Marc:So when this second album came out, I was like, holy shit, and it's great.
Marc:But I got to talk to her and it was a real treat for me.
Marc:Because, you know, there's people that do that kind of stuff, that music stuff.
Marc:And she's sort of an interesting character, it seemed to me, living in rural Kentucky as a gay woman who writes these profoundly deep songs.
Marc:I was curious as to what she was like.
Marc:No idea.
Marc:So when I got the opportunity to talk to her, I was like, yes, please.
Marc:So you'll be hearing that.
Marc:This, I want to tell you, I will be taping my HBO special on December 8th at the Town Hall in New York City.
Marc:You hear me?
Marc:Presale tickets are on sale now.
Marc:You can get the link at wtfpod.com or at Ticketmaster.
Marc:The presale is running until 10 p.m.
Marc:Eastern tonight.
Marc:The access code is the word TIME.
Marc:T-I-M-E.
Marc:I believe all caps.
Marc:Why not do it that way?
Marc:That's how it's written.
Marc:Tickets are on sale to the general public starting tomorrow, Friday, at 10 a.m.
Marc:Eastern.
Marc:But get on board.
Marc:It's going to be fun.
Marc:It's going to be exciting.
Marc:It's a great venue.
Marc:I played there for the New York Comedy Festival.
Marc:And I'm going back.
Marc:I've got to oil this.
Marc:I'm going to oil it.
Marc:Sorry.
Marc:I'm going to oil it.
Marc:So, yeah, since I got back from the run in Lincoln, Des Moines, Iowa City, I did receive, for those of you who are concerned and in the loop about the budget tale, I did receive a receipt from budget, but I don't believe it was for the correct car.
Marc:But I don't seem to... I've not been charged anymore for...
Marc:But it says that your Nissan Rogue AWD has been checked in successfully.
Marc:I didn't have a Nissan Rogue.
Marc:I had a Kia.
Marc:Nissan Rogue was something I took and then gave back within hours because the oil light came on.
Marc:But I'm glad you got it back that same day.
Marc:Maybe these things just take a while to process between here and Lincoln, Nebraska.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:But I'm glad that the Rogue that I drove for an hour and parked in the exact same place that I took it from made it back.
Marc:That was on Thursday.
Marc:Last Thursday.
Marc:Oh, another thing I want to talk about real quick is that I'm very happy about Mr. Snake in the way that I'm getting a lot of emails and some DMs on Instagram.
Marc:By the way, I joined TikTok.
Marc:It doesn't matter.
Marc:My heart's not in it.
Marc:I posted one video.
Marc:I'm not going to chase it, but I'm there.
Marc:Maybe if you follow me, I'll be incentivized.
Marc:It doesn't matter, but I did it.
Marc:But I get a lot of messages one way or the other from parents.
Marc:who are able to bond around my voice with their kid.
Marc:Like I have fans who are grownups who now go to the bad guys movies and my voice is Mr. Snake and their kids like Mr. Snake.
Marc:So there's sort of this weird bonding going on between two different versions of me talking.
Marc:And apparently some guy, I couldn't find the DM, things get away from me, but some guy wrote me and said that he was playing my podcast in his office or something in the house.
Marc:And his kid came in and said, do you know Mr. Snake?
Marc:That's Mr. Snake.
Marc:Do you know Mr. Snake?
Marc:That the kid was able to identify my voice here on this podcast as being the same one as Mr. Snake.
Marc:which is more like this.
Marc:But it's interesting that the kid knew.
Marc:Maybe it's not that different.
Marc:I thought it was different.
Marc:I was in character, man.
Marc:But I love that.
Marc:I love the weird bonding of kids and their parents around these two different versions of my voice.
Marc:Okay, look, S.G.
Marc:Goodman is great, and you should really just pick up her records and take it in.
Marc:She's the real deal.
Marc:And I was happy to get to talk to her because I've been a fan since I got that first record.
Marc:Her new album is called Teeth Marks, and you can get it wherever you get music.
Marc:And this is me talking to S.G.
Marc:Goodman.
Guest:One thing about me is I'm terrible with song titles, album titles, and musicians' names, even band names.
Guest:So it's kind of like I'm not the best person always to talk to.
Guest:I have my thing that I like.
Guest:And that's it?
Marc:That's the parameters?
Guest:Kind of.
Guest:And it's funny because everybody's like, have you ever heard this song?
Guest:I'll say, I don't think so.
Guest:And then they'll play it and I'll be like, yeah, I've heard that.
Marc:I mean, if you grew up in America, there's a handful of songs that you couldn't avoid.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:So you know what they are.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:But then, you know, if you get, yeah, I mean, you just like what you like.
Marc:I mean, I kind of, I'm trying to spread it out.
Guest:I am too, and I, uh, that's this, you know, I'm out on tour by myself.
Guest:It's the first time I've had alone time since January.
Guest:No band?
Guest:No band.
Guest:Just you and the guitar?
Guest:Just me and a guitar.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:How's that going?
Guest:It's, uh, I mean, there's elements of it, you know, if you're used to at least having an extra guitar player with you, you took away your security blanket and it's just you.
Guest:So it's a good character building exercise, but really I did this because I needed to be alone for a minute.
Marc:I tour as a comic alone, and I love it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, because even if you're just with one other person, like if I have an opener or something, we're in the car together, you're sort of being in relationship.
Yeah.
Marc:100 percent yeah and and so you make decisions that you may not even really realize in relation to that dynamic even if you're not on stage with the person exactly and i struggle with codependency oh terrible i i had no idea i was good i know i'm an addict yeah but the codependency thing is a fucking nightmare
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I honestly, until this last year, I was I had the definition of it wrong.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, what do you think?
Guest:I thought it was like we depend on each other to get something done.
Guest:Not that, oh, this makes sense that I'm so worried to say my truth around you that it's going to hurt your feelings or that you compromise yourself.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And I do.
Guest:I do that a lot.
Marc:Yeah, you create... I've noticed this a lot lately.
Marc:You're inventing a person that you're reacting to.
Marc:They might not be thinking about that at all.
Marc:It's speculation.
Marc:It's a weird, natural thing where you erase yourself to honor this idea that they might take offense or think this or think that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, it's really conflicting with, you know, kind of like I'm a very mothery person.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so, but with the way things have developed for me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In the last few years, just with time and energy, I have learned that I have to learn to set boundaries even within myself.
Guest:Oh, you mean with you?
Guest:With me as far as... Drawing a line.
Guest:Drawing a line with myself and with others and sitting with a lot of uncomfortable feelings of thinking that they're not having a good time or something.
Guest:So if I don't have my bandmates with me, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm not worried about leaving a hotel and someone leaving something or just a lot of different things.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:And it's a relief.
Marc:It's so nice.
Marc:It's so nice just to be like, where do I want to eat?
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:What am I going to do today?
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:I don't have to call anybody.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But you do things, right?
Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did you grow up in a boozy world?
Guest:Boozy?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:As in like booze to drink?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No.
Marc:So the codependency didn't come from growing up like that?
Guest:It wasn't anything like that.
Guest:I think it maybe came more from just...
Guest:Probably the family business kind of thing.
Guest:Wait, what was that?
Guest:Farming.
Guest:And you were where?
Guest:Hickman, Kentucky.
Guest:Do you have people in floods right now?
Guest:No, actually, where I'm at, it's more of a drought situation, or it has been.
Guest:But Eastern Kentucky is where you're thinking.
Guest:You're still there?
Guest:I'm in Western Kentucky.
Guest:I'm in Murray, Kentucky, which is about an hour from where I was raised.
Guest:I was born in Union City, Tennessee.
Marc:I was just in Louisville.
Marc:oh yeah yeah how did you what do you think of that city i thought it was good i i don't know that i had a great sense of it but i definitely had um were you downtown or out okay i played at that kentucky performance art center there in the bond the bomb hard the bomb hard center the bomb hard theater about 500 cedar a nice little tiered theater never been
Marc:Oh, it was great.
Marc:It was great.
Marc:But I can't say I know exactly what was going on there.
Marc:I had a good view of the river, and there was a lot of Muhammad Ali around.
Guest:Yeah, that's not a bad thing.
Guest:No.
Guest:Louisville is a really cool city.
Guest:It's an old city, and as far as architecture goes, it's more...
Guest:If you get out of the downtown, it's more reminiscent some of the houses and stuff of like an older city like St.
Guest:Louis or even a little bit Philadelphia, something like that.
Guest:But I think personally that Louisville aesthetically is way better.
Marc:like better than nashville or something it just doesn't have the same stuff going on i don't know what's going on nashville anymore i mean i i haven't been there in a while but the last time i was there i'm like what are they building why is there a line at every restaurant it's yeah it's it's terrible like it wasn't exactly quaint but it was certainly its own thing
Guest:I lived there for about six and a half months in 2018 to 19.
Guest:And in that amount of time, I mean, it's just become, I don't even like driving through there.
Guest:The drivers are so crazy.
Guest:And my rent for that one room is more than my mortgage in Kentucky.
Guest:So it's just, it's pricing everybody out.
Guest:They're closing down like notable venues.
Guest:It's really not as...
Marc:They can close down that meet and three next to Carter's Guitars place?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:What was that place called?
Marc:Is it Arnold's?
Marc:Arnold's, yeah.
Marc:I went into, it's Carter's Guitars, right?
Marc:I almost bought a Gold Top, like a real one.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I think it was one of Ed King's.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Marc:I got reissued, I don't know whether it's in the case.
Marc:I try to get all my guitars for free if possible.
Guest:Yeah, I hear you.
Guest:I like to get a lot of stuff for free.
Marc:As much free stuff as I can.
Marc:So farming, you grew up in a farm.
Marc:I know you probably talk about this a lot, but it's like, I don't know what that's like or what that means to grow up on a farm.
Marc:How many people in the family?
Guest:I am one of three kids.
Guest:I'm the middle.
Guest:I have two brothers.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, it's kind of – Hickman is a small place and probably less than – definitely less than 3,000, maybe 2,500 people, you know.
Guest:And when I was born, my dad and his brothers and their father still all farmed together.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:What was the crop?
Guest:So it was primarily like corn, wheat, soybeans.
Guest:And at one time, that area was known for cotton.
Guest:And then the markets kind of changed at one time.
Guest:They quit growing cotton there.
Guest:And actually, when I was a teenager, they started growing cotton back in Fulton County.
Marc:That brings some ghosts with it.
Guest:Yeah, for sure.
Marc:I imagine.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, it's just kind of a, what do you mean by that?
Marc:Well, I just mean that, you know, you associate cotton fields with slavery generally.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, you know, that's a reality, especially along the Mississippi River, which is where my home county is.
Guest:It's the most western southern tip of Kentucky on the Mississippi River.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So, yeah.
Marc:But soybeans and corn, those are all kind of multi-use, big business crops.
Guest:Yeah, it's monocrops.
Guest:So, you know, my family, they're not small farmers.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Well, they are, technically, but when you tell somebody, like...
Guest:You know, my grandfather, he took his GI Bill and he worked with the TVA and, you know, saving money.
Guest:But he was a farm hand for a man named Mr. Thomas in Fulton County.
Guest:And when Mr. Thomas retired, my grandfather, Bill, bought Mr. Thomas' farming equipment.
Guest:And that's when he became a sharecropper.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:And so that would have been... Did you know that guy?
Guest:Yeah, I did.
Guest:He died when I was pretty small, but I do have memories.
Guest:I was about four years old, almost five when he passed.
Guest:I think my grandfather was 6'4".
Marc:Big guy.
Guest:Giant guy.
Marc:So did you grow up driving tractors and stuff?
Guest:I did.
Guest:And, you know, this is really big equipment.
Guest:And I didn't, I mean, believe me, that work is really hard.
Guest:There was a lot of equipment that I didn't drive.
Guest:My dad always wanted me to drive the combine.
Guest:He thought that would be a great job for me.
Guest:But there's a lot going on there and kind of scary.
Marc:But you got in there with him.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I loved going to the farm with him when I was little.
Guest:And, you know, at one point, you know, it's funny, my dad and his brothers, they would have seen agriculture change from cabless equipment to where they have cabs.
Guest:And now, you know, my dad can.
Marc:Oh, things you'd have to trail, you'd pull on the tractor as opposed to drive?
Guest:Well, as in, like, there was no cab covering you.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Okay, okay.
Guest:So you were in open air, you know?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Just breathing all the chemical or whatever.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:So now, when I was a child, yeah, so we were all in cabbed vehicles.
Marc:So that must have been very exciting on the farm when the cabs came.
Guest:Well, I don't remember that, but my dad would.
Guest:Sure, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:for sure i mean yeah and also power steering oh yeah that's the thing right so um so your grandfather probably had made the transition out of some livestock pulling things maybe or not yeah he worked mules yeah right and then into tractors and then into wow the evolution of farm equipment yeah just in you know in my grandfather's lifetime and and in my lifetime
Guest:Something came along where it's – when GPS kind of, you know, made its way into farm equipment, now you kind of grid your fields and the tractor –
Guest:will know the layout of the field and it'll line itself up so you have really straight rows.
Guest:Oh, that's good.
Guest:It's good.
Guest:I mean, it's, you know, they do all that stuff to try to make things more efficient and bring more yields.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Now, is your family still on the farm?
Guest:They are.
Guest:My oldest brother still farms with my dad.
Guest:And, you know, like I was saying earlier, my dad and his brothers used to farm together, but it was a lovely southern drama of the brothers not getting along and splitting everything up.
Marc:And they did that?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Definitely.
Marc:So you don't talk to your uncle?
Guest:Oh, I do.
Guest:Yeah, it's kind of strange.
Guest:Now, none of them talk to each other.
Guest:And it's a, I mean, it really is like a Flannery O'Connor story because we, you know, they all live in the same county.
Guest:So they definitely see each other probably every day.
Guest:Do you know what it was over?
Guest:I mean, you know, a lot of people – it's strange.
Guest:As a kid, you know, you might think one thing, but as an adult, you realize that you got one of three stories.
Marc:Yeah, right, yeah.
Guest:So, like, you kind of have to – And they're two sides, at least.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I would say so.
Guest:And complicated, and maybe they were –
Guest:you know, at times too immature and where they were when it was happening to try to figure each other out.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:I just watched The Straight Story.
Marc:Did you ever watch that David Lynch movie?
Marc:Mm-mm.
Marc:It's so good.
Marc:You've got to watch it.
Marc:It's that guy Richard Farnsworth.
Marc:He plays an old dude who's got a beef with his brother, and he's like 80, 80.
Marc:And you don't ever know what the beef is about, but he just gets on a driving lawnmower and drives across a state and a half to go see his brother who had just had a stroke.
Marc:It's one of the most beautiful movies.
Marc:It's a David Lynch movie, oddly, but it's so specific and moving.
Marc:It's almost like he's driving that to pay penance.
Marc:It's really something...
Guest:Yeah, I'll check it out.
Guest:Or you'll actually have to write it down.
Marc:Yeah, it's hard to find.
Marc:I'll take a picture of it for you.
Marc:You can't even stream it.
Marc:But maybe I'll give you the DVD because you're on the road.
Marc:I don't know if you can watch it.
Marc:Does your computer got a DVD on it?
Guest:No, but maybe I'll try to figure out a way to watch it.
Guest:But a funny thing, I don't really watch movies or TV at all.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What do you do?
Guest:That's a great question.
Guest:I work outside.
Guest:I play music.
Guest:But on the road?
Marc:Don't watch a little TV in the hotel room?
Guest:Sometime in the hotel room, I'll turn on... I like to cook.
Guest:I'll turn on the Food Network, even though you don't really learn a lot about cooking on there anymore.
Marc:But it's fun to watch people cook.
Guest:It is.
Guest:You do pick up some technique and understand, but...
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What do you like to cook?
Marc:Soups.
Marc:Really?
Marc:I love to cook soups.
Marc:Do you make your own stock?
Marc:I make everything if I can.
Marc:How do you make a beef bone stock?
Marc:A beef bone stock?
Marc:Do you ever do it?
Guest:I really don't.
Guest:I'm not a huge red meat eater.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Chicken?
Marc:No chicken?
Guest:Yeah, chicken.
Guest:Yeah, I'm not vegetarian.
Guest:It's just, you know, we used to always have like a cow killed or something like for between family or split it with another family.
Guest:But you can't, you know, Murray, we don't have a butcher.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know what I'm saying?
Guest:And I'm not home enough to- Someone's going to do it.
Guest:Someone, yeah.
Marc:Uncle or brother's got to figure it out?
Guest:Yeah, if they do that.
Guest:But I don't eat enough, like, I don't like burgers.
Marc:Oh, so you're not in the loop when they're like, do you want a half a cow?
Marc:Do you have a freezer?
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:I'm not going to eat any of that, probably.
Marc:Did you have cows on the property?
Guest:My mother's father had cows.
Marc:And he was nearby?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:My whole family lived in one county.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:They still do.
Marc:So someone had livestock, someone had vegetables.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And we always grew a garden growing up.
Guest:I would still grow a garden, but it would just die.
Marc:So you didn't have to go to the store for much?
No.
Guest:I mean, we did, but yeah, for sure.
Marc:Did you sell your own produce and whatnot?
Guest:Yeah, so my dad would plant an acre of sweet corn for each of his kids, and you pick that by hand.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And so in the summertime, since I was a very, very small child, we would do that for, you know, extracurricular money and also school clothes and supplies and stuff.
Guest:It's terrible work.
Guest:I don't even eat corn.
Guest:I don't eat it at all.
Guest:No?
Guest:Uh-uh.
Marc:You don't like it?
Guest:i i hate it it's hard to digest i think it is and when i was a little girl you hate it because of your past are you traumatized by corn i'm totally traumatized by corn i mean it's yeah sometime you're out in the south and it's like get out there about 10 30 in the morning and just just walk out in the middle of a cornfield and just imagine you know it's terrible i hated it
Marc:Why, because it's scary or is there a smell to it or what?
Guest:No, it's just very uncomfortable, hot work.
Guest:It's really hard.
Marc:Oh, you mean just picking the corn.
Guest:Yeah, it's hard.
Guest:It tears up your hands and your face.
Guest:Ugh.
Guest:You have to wear long sleeves and you have to, we would get up before the sunrise and be at the field when the sun was coming up because by the time noon came around, it would be too hot to be in the field.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So you had to get the corn in in the morning.
Guest:You get it in the morning while it's cool.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so it doesn't spoil.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then we would either we sold some like on the side of the road.
Guest:But we would try to get people that wanted like a thousand ears or something and sell it.
Marc:Go quick.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:We always have that nasty worm at the top sometimes.
Guest:Sometimes, yeah.
Guest:Or sometimes it'll have a fungus on it that kind of looks like a mushroom, and if you touch it, it'll poof into like air.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah, a little smoke.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's really gross and weird.
Marc:So, okay, no corn for you.
Guest:No corn for me.
Marc:What do you go by in terms of, is your name SG?
Marc:No.
Guest:My name is SG.
Marc:It is.
Guest:Yeah, it's my initials for my name.
Marc:That's what people call you?
Guest:Yeah, with music.
Guest:I mean, at home, no.
Marc:What do they call you?
Guest:At home?
Guest:Well, my name is Shana Gale Goodman.
Marc:Shana Gale.
Guest:Shana Gale.
Marc:That's pretty good.
Marc:You would have to have been a straight-up country singer to be Shana Gale publicly.
Guest:I know.
Marc:Isn't it funny?
Guest:I know, and it's also kind of funny.
Guest:I get asked a lot if I'm Jewish.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Wow.
Guest:For Shana and Goodman.
Marc:Interesting.
Marc:And that's a no, I imagine.
Guest:That's a no.
Guest:We're covering Southern Baptist.
Marc:I can tell by the cover of the first record.
Marc:I'm like, what's going on there?
Marc:Who's the snake guy?
Guest:That's my dad.
Guest:That's my dad, and that's a cottonmouth.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But he's not a preacher.
Yeah.
Marc:no he's not a preacher did you grow up in pentecostal baptist no okay well that's good southern baptist yeah yeah that's good no snake handling no snake handling he he brought that home to show us so we wouldn't pick one up lesson learned yeah so when does because like i noticed you know certainly on the new record or on the well this record they are different i think in sound right don't you
Marc:yeah definitely and like there's some more rockers on the new record there's the production is different and uh there's almost like a kind of a heavy poppy punk song on this one but for me that um you were someone i loved song
Marc:It's kind of mind-blowing.
Marc:There's something about the second half of it that feels almost timeless.
Marc:You have this singing thing that you do that seems to go back to some sort of Appalachian Gaelic vocal tradition.
Marc:Do you know what I'm talking about?
Marc:Yeah, definitely.
Marc:Where does that come from in you?
Guest:You know, a lot of people ask me, do I remember my first concert?
Guest:And I don't, but I went to three a week at church.
Guest:And when you hear like the old timers singing.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You learn music that way.
Guest:You learn the parts of music, not because they tell you this is the alto part.
Guest:You know that by the person who sings it in your congregation.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So you start, you know, hearing it that way.
Guest:And also, I think, you know, I've just been around a lot of older people all my life through church that sang in that tradition.
Guest:It was the music I was raised on.
Guest:It was.
Guest:And so it feels very much... I can't...
Guest:I can never get away with it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Or get away from it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I can never get away from it.
Marc:Well, it's sort of like that, but that's oddly, like, my education around that is only because of the roots of country music, really.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like, the Carter family's all about that stuff, right?
Guest:Yep.
Marc:It's the same kind of history.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:And there's a consistency to it.
Marc:It's definitely a way of singing.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:And it was all mostly church music, those hymns and some of the older stuff?
Guest:Church music and, you know, like my grandmother and her siblings, most older people I grew up around had a piano in the house.
Guest:And, you know, that was a form of entertainment.
Guest:And so...
Guest:having family sing-alongs or whatever was something they were used to that didn't happen in my family like when i was a child necessarily um now i have an aunt who would play piano and me and her daughters would sing yeah in their house my family has a piano in the house it just seemed like everybody had a piano sure does anyone play in your family oh yeah
Guest:Yeah, both of my brothers.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Good?
Guest:Pretty good, yeah.
Guest:They're both way better musicians than I am, for sure.
Marc:But they didn't pursue it.
Marc:Mm-mm.
Marc:So that's, well, that's kind of, it's interesting.
Marc:So in church, but was there more instruments than piano?
Marc:Was there any guitars or banjos or anything?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, because, you know, in my particular church, Southern Baptist, and even for that denomination, my particular church was very, very conservative.
Guest:So they didn't want any type of instrument that would evoke too much emotion.
Marc:Don't want anyone going crazy with a banjo.
Guest:They just wanted to preach fire and brimstone.
Guest:That was the only emotion they wanted you to feel, that kind of stuff.
Marc:Did that dig into your brain?
Marc:Did it get a hold on you?
Guest:Oh, yeah, for sure.
Guest:Yeah, no, it, um, I, you know, believed, uh, that I had like a salvation experience around 14.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Got baptized for the second time after that.
Marc:In the water?
Guest:Mm-hmm, in the water.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, um, I...
Guest:I really took it seriously for several years.
Guest:And now I understand what that was all about.
Guest:You know, I'm a pretty curious person, and I really dug deep into doctrine.
Guest:I loved reading commentaries, and, you know, I liked using concordance and all this stuff.
Guest:What is that?
Marc:It is a— I am a Jew.
Marc:You're going to have to explain it.
Guest:So it would be like, let's say you wanted to read everywhere in the Bible that it mentioned like using tongues or something.
Guest:So you could find that easily and look at it and it might give you a little helpful notes and just kind of a study tool.
Guest:So I was really big into church history and all this stuff.
Guest:And even at one time, probably around 16, considered myself a Calvinist.
Guest:So, you know, I believed in like predetermination and stuff like that.
Marc:Well, that's sort of an exciting thing to do with your mind.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it kept me out of trouble, you know.
Marc:Did it?
Guest:Yeah, for sure.
Marc:So when you say you understand more about it now, what do you look back and think?
Guest:Well, so...
Guest:I think that I just really love to understand things, and that's actually what kind of led me out of it.
Guest:I was a philosophy major in college.
Marc:Were you playing music then?
Guest:Yeah, so I started playing guitar around age 15, trying to teach myself a little bit.
Marc:But church music?
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Like praise and worship songs at the youth group and stuff, for sure.
Marc:That was where it started?
Guest:I mean, not...
Guest:Not really.
Guest:It would have started earlier.
Guest:I took piano lessons early on in my childhood and just hated it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But guitar, you kind of dug it?
Guest:Guitar, I wanted to do that.
Marc:And sit around with people and sing church songs?
Guest:Absolutely not.
Guest:No, I didn't.
Guest:I didn't want to.
Guest:I would practice in the back bathroom of my house away from everyone when everyone was asleep.
Guest:I didn't want really anyone to know...
Guest:Were you singing too?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's why for the first several years, especially as a teenager, I had a problem singing with my mouth too closed.
Guest:And I think it's just because that's the only way I ever practiced.
Guest:singing really low.
Marc:Were you embarrassed about it?
Guest:I just didn't want anyone to ask me to do it.
Guest:She's here with the guitar.
Guest:I was asked my entire childhood to sing at church.
Guest:As soon as they know you can carry a slight tune, you're going to be asked to do what they call a special, which is just where you sing a song that's not a hymn at church.
Guest:And you do that?
Mm-hmm.
Marc:Well, I mean, you got an amazing voice.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:So you knew that early on?
Guest:I knew it wasn't bad.
Guest:No, yeah, but you could do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did you enjoy it?
Marc:No.
Marc:You didn't enjoy it once?
Marc:I mean, I understand being asked it's nerve-wracking, but once you were doing it, you didn't like it?
Guest:No, it took me so long to enjoy performing.
Guest:I wasn't confident in it, so it was very nerve-wracking for me.
Marc:So you're playing guitar, you're learning these church songs or praise songs.
Marc:When did you start not playing those?
Marc:When did it shift for you?
Marc:What shifted you out of that kind of committed belief?
Marc:Well, engagement.
Guest:Yeah, I could say that maybe a little of it had to do with music.
Guest:But, you know, I started hearing people in my area recording and I started writing maybe different songs like a love song or something.
Guest:Nothing that had to do with like God or anything.
Guest:And when I was 16, I started recording with a local guy, and it was like a year process, basically, and nothing ever became of it.
Guest:It was just an interesting situation.
Marc:What were you recording?
Guest:Some originals.
Marc:Yeah, but not God songs.
Guest:Um, maybe they had, you know, God undertone some of that.
Guest:But then when I was 18 and trying to figure out if I wanted to go to college because I didn't, I signed up for college two weeks before it started.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:mess me up but i i did that because there was a local guy near that college yeah that he was actually recording stuff that sounded really good yeah and so i wanted to work with him and i loved pop music so i started writing pop songs oh yeah and so i was 18 i made a pop record
Marc:Like pop pop or country pop?
Guest:Like pop pop.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:Definitely.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was under my great grandfather's name, Otto Sharp.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And anyway, I started playing.
Guest:I gathered a band and had my first show at this little pizza joint in St.
Guest:Louis, which is about four hours from where that was.
Guest:It was my first show in the world.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:At a club.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's when I started learning some hard lessons about live performances.
Guest:I didn't play something right, and I stopped the band and asked them to start all over.
Guest:Isn't that cute?
Guest:And I had a girl who was on that bill come up to me after the show.
Guest:I was just a kid.
Guest:In fact, my dad came with me.
Guest:He didn't want me to go up there with the boys by myself, even though I was 18.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:but um this this girl came up to me and said like honey no matter what you do up there don't ever stop a song and start all over you keep going wow did you feel it i was embarrassed i mean you know sure i couldn't hear myself i've never played in a venue before and i mean newsflash i still can't hear myself most venues are playing you just learn how to deal with that right but you know
Guest:Yeah, I did that, and then I got accepted to play this festival in Dewey Beach, Delaware, a really big indie.
Marc:With that band?
Guest:With that band.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Went up there with them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, at that time, I was now in college.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which college?
Guest:Murray State University.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so it was there that I think some of my love for church doctrine and all this stuff.
Guest:For Jesus?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, at that point, there were just some real conflicting things in regards to like my sexuality.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That were conflicting with my beliefs of predetermination.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You can see that.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so that was a very big question for me.
Guest:And I would go at my first year of college.
Guest:I was pretty active in some of the churchy youth stuff on campus, like the Beast Baptist Student Union and a few others.
Guest:And I would go and try to have meetings with the leaders.
Guest:Uh huh.
Guest:And ask them these questions about, you know, predestination.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And especially in regards to homosexuality.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And, I mean, if you want to watch somebody squirm, you know, just go.
Marc:Ask them that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then.
Marc:How did they answer?
Marc:What did they respond to?
Oh.
Marc:Because if you're coming up to them with a question like that, they know that you must be speaking for yourself, right?
Guest:100%.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I can't really remember how exactly they answered me, but I remember the first piece of doctrine that was kind of a belief of my church that made me start doubting some things.
Guest:I really wanted to understand...
Guest:why certain denominations used the idea that you could speak in tongues and why my church didn't believe that.
Guest:And I found some inconsistencies, I thought.
Guest:And my preacher at the time told me, he was like, you know, I really appreciate your questions, but at some point your faith is going to have to take over.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Well, that's a little bit of a red flag.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And so, you know, don't ask any questions.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like, you know, and but in college, when I got into philosophy and started, you know, studying like epistemology and why we believe things that we do or all this stuff, you know, I found some peace around those things.
Marc:Well, when you were able to break it down to the human need to believe.
Guest:A hundred percent.
Marc:What any specific belief was became sort of neutral in a way.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:In fact, you know, in one class in particular, it was epistemology class.
Guest:I kind of tell people when they ask how I feel about, you know, religion, I say, you know, there are a lot of valid arguments, but, you know, it's hard to prove when something is sound.
Guest:There's few sound arguments.
Marc:And I imagine that dealing with sexuality, that it's...
Marc:relatively irreconcilable to those doctrines.
Marc:Like there's no wiggle room in a lot of them.
Guest:No, and there's definitely denominations that would say that's not true.
Guest:When it comes to the Bible, they would say that my church would say, yeah, absolutely no.
Guest:There's no wiggle room there.
Guest:Where my drummer, whose parents...
Guest:our Presbyterian ministers, they're not literalist when it comes to reading scripture.
Guest:So there's different camps within those worlds.
Guest:Because there's lots of gay Christians that believe the Bible includes them.
Guest:It's just the reality is there's a lot of denominations that believe the Bible does not include them.
Guest:That's just a fact.
Guest:And that happened to be the camp that I rolled out of.
Marc:Right.
Marc:you know that you left yeah yeah so in doing like once you took the philosophy class and once you started to question the predestination business and you know you're playing pop songs so and you're starting to deal with your sexuality that must have been a pretty exciting few years
Marc:That's one way to put it, Mark, you know?
Guest:Yeah, that's one way to put it.
Guest:I would say, yeah, it was a time also because I'd taken, you know...
Guest:my interpretation of how to act like a Christian so seriously to the point where I quit listening to most all secular music for a time, where I limited, like, what I watched or read or anything in there.
Yeah.
Guest:So when I started working with this producer, his name is Dustin Burnett, and a lot of people may know him as he's an artist by the name of Zade Wolf now.
Guest:And that would come many years after we started working together.
Guest:But he started giving me mixtapes of different CDs, different artists on there.
Guest:Where'd you meet him?
Guest:I met him by word of mouth.
Guest:There were actually Kelsey Walden, who's a Kentucky artist, had made a record with him and some other local bands, and it just sounded the best out of the area.
Guest:So I wanted to work with him.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Was that the guy that was near the college?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Okay, okay.
Guest:So that's him.
Guest:And, you know, through him, he shared a lot of... I mean, that's the first time.
Guest:At this time, you know, he had heard... He had a buddy who, I don't know, worked for some company that showed him, like, Arcade Fire before Funeral came out or whatever, you know, and stuff like that.
Guest:So I was hearing...
Guest:indie music you know yeah in a in a way for like the first time really oh wow as yeah i mean i did a little bit in high school but not much and it was like arcade fire no i mean no it's like uh let's see the white stripes had like um tokyo police club there were a lot of canadian like bands and
Guest:It was the first time I ever heard, like, Tegan and Sarah.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Back then.
Guest:So a lot of Popmetric, who's another Canadian artist.
Guest:Let's see.
Guest:The Kills.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:So that must have been mind-blowing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, there was a lot of mind-blowing stuff.
Guest:Architecture in Helsinki.
Yeah.
Guest:It's been so long, obviously, since I listened or thought about that.
Marc:But when you were coming up, when you were growing up, you didn't have any secular country music?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:No, that period of my life where I told myself that I was going to stop certain stuff from entering in my heart.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, I was raised on old country.
Guest:I was raised on top 40 pop country and also old country blues.
Guest:And my dad's like an old rock guy.
Guest:Oh, he is?
Guest:Classic rock or before?
Guest:Classic rock, both.
Guest:I mean, he really is a music appreciator kind of thing.
Marc:So you were kind of, in terms of your family, a little weird with your sort of immersion in the scripture.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, actually I was.
Guest:I mean, my parents and brothers all went to church, but as far as that time being that strict, yeah.
Marc:Do you think it was a reaction to you realizing your sexuality?
Guest:I would say...
Guest:There's definitely room for that interpretation.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And, I mean, it definitely took a lot of pressure away for, like, having a serious boyfriend because I was just waiting on the one God was going to send me, you know, Mark?
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The predetermined one.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:True love waits, Mark.
Guest:But yeah, no, there's definitely elements of that.
Guest:And also something that I didn't actually realize until I was older, I'm diagnosed obsessive compulsive with obsessive compulsive disorder.
Marc:And so a lot of times- That's a really nice partnering with codependency.
Marc:It really works really well with codependency.
Guest:Oh, believe me, I know.
Guest:And there's not enough medicine in the world to really deal with that.
Guest:But a lot of my obsessions, which religion was one of them, doctrine was one of them, make a lot of sense the more I understood myself through the lens of obsessive-compulsive disorder.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And where are you at with that now?
Marc:What's your thing?
Yeah.
Guest:um are you trying not to have things well yeah you're always trying not to have things i mean i've been in therapy for many many years you know i just had therapy today before i showed up on the road uh on the phone oh yeah yeah uh covid kind of opened up a lot of laws around that kind of thing sure but um yeah i pretty much have to do it always remote now yeah and is that was that a therapist you see in person so it's a someone in near your hometown
Guest:Actually, in Nashville.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:When I lived there, I started seeing her.
Guest:I've been with her for almost, I guess it's going on four years now.
Guest:That's great.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:It's awesome.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:Best thing.
Marc:Good for you taking care of yourself.
Guest:Oh, my goodness.
Guest:Well, I saw a lot of therapists before that, but as far as the OCD thing goes, I would say depending, people have a lot of misconceptions around obsessive compulsive disorder.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:One, you don't necessarily like to clean or keep things tidy or whatever.
Guest:It's a compulsion.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's anxiety behind that that makes you have to do that.
Guest:Also, a lot of it is just in your head with like –
Guest:obsessive thoughts sure images that's why i was going to say when you were recommending that movie earlier i don't watch films and it's to protect myself um from things like that so i'm repeating them in your mind over and over again yeah so i have to really really protect myself from certain images i don't i don't like to watch things that evoke anxiety much
Guest:And it's always kind of an awkward conversation to be around people who are in film or whatever to say, never probably watched your show.
Guest:I became pen pals with Paul Schrader in the pandemic.
Marc:What the fuck is that?
Marc:Out of all the people...
Marc:Paul Schrader, the great explorer of toxic masculinity, is your pal?
Guest:Well, so listen to this.
Guest:So a friend from back home, I was on Facebook or something and shared that Paul had been sharing Space and Time, a song of mine from my album Old Time Feeling.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I don't know who Paul Schrader is.
Guest:I sure didn't right then.
Guest:But this guy posted, he was like, great to see one of my favorite screenwriters post one of my favorite artists or something like that.
Guest:And so I looked him up and I sent it to my manager.
Guest:I was like, do y'all know who this person is or whatever?
Guest:And of course, all my friends knew who Paul Schrader is, the taxi driver and all this stuff.
Guest:But I had never heard of it and never seen any of his movies.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, you know, I reached out and thanked him for sharing my stuff or whatever.
Guest:And he gave me his email or whatever.
Guest:And we started, you know, he's an interesting story and conversation.
Guest:Heavy stuff, man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:At one point, you know, he asked me if I'd seen his movie.
Guest:I think it's The Light Sleeper.
Guest:And, of course...
Guest:I called my manager.
Guest:I'm like, oh, God, here it is.
Guest:This is the moment that I tell apparently this important screenwriter guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't watch movies and I don't plan to.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I had the choice.
Guest:I was either going to lie and say, yeah, I've watched it.
Guest:And just like, what is it?
Guest:IMBD.
Guest:And that's the thing you look at movies.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But no, I told him I was just like, listen, I don't watch movies.
Guest:I don't watch movies.
Guest:I'll watch it if you tell me where the scary part is or whatever.
Guest:I ended up doing that.
Marc:It's not a scary movie, really.
Guest:Well, that part where the guy pulls out his tooth.
Guest:I saw that coming, and I was just like, I can't handle that stuff.
Guest:Some of Paul's scores are kind of scary and heavy.
Marc:I think he wrote One of the Exorcists.
Marc:He might have written and directed the second or third one.
Marc:I just watched one of his movies night before last, actually.
Marc:Blue Collar, the one with Richard Pryor and Harvey Keitel and Yafet Kodo.
Marc:You've never seen it.
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:I didn't expect you to.
Marc:So how does this relationship then evolve from me telling you I've never watched and I never will watch your movies, really?
Marc:You watched Light Sleeper.
Guest:I watched that, and, you know, we just kind of talked about—we shared playlists back and forth together.
Guest:Oh, that's nice.
Guest:And, you know, he's got a—I mean, he's been around a while.
Guest:He knows a lot of people.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And it was just a good story.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:And—but he asked me to sing on—
Guest:his newest film he's got one coming out uh the card counter yeah i saw that i sang on that you did i did i went to new york and i sang on that and then uh i'm trying to remember the song an original a different one or one of yours no it's not one of mine um okay robert bean did the score for that and i went to manhattan and sang oh and i'm gonna have to go watch that did you watch that movie that gets a little violent
Guest:Yeah, you know, when you're doing that, you kind of get to see before the final cut and stuff.
Guest:But yes, it's pretty violent.
Guest:It's it's hard for me.
Guest:I mean, yeah, people love his movies.
Guest:And I did learn things about, you know, very specific, very specific.
Guest:And well, good.
Guest:yeah so i learned about that but anyway and you were able to do some soundtrack work a little bit yeah and so that's cool but yeah all to say uh yeah sometimes trying to explain to people how i have to protect myself with the mental illness thing yeah can get a little awkward and people don't really get what what that means for me in any particular moment you know
Marc:Well, I think that's the same with even codependency sometimes.
Marc:If people don't have these things, they don't have the capacity for empathy with it.
Marc:You're just talking like, wow, that sounds terrible.
Marc:Yeah, but OCD, even in a mild way, for me, I don't have it in any way.
Marc:you know pathological way but i've got enough addiction in me to know that weird kind of need for closure and perfectionism yeah that's how it happens with me like i need answers and i also need you to make this right yeah i i totally understand that i think it's really difficult navigating that in a
Guest:you know touring yeah it's it's really difficult it's a very uncomfortable well if you get locked in on something that you you can't get uh satisfaction around uh yeah well i'll have depending on my anxiety level i can really sink into some germ issues oh really
Guest:On a good day and through therapy, you know, CBT therapy and different forms, I've learned to be able to sit with certain things.
Guest:But if I'm in a really stressful situation or I've had a long period of time where I've had stress build up, things shift.
Guest:You know, I might get, you know, right now at my level on like as in my career.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:I mean...
Guest:I need to be crashing on people's floors, not spending money on one hotel room for five people.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's the reality of the finances.
Guest:But when that happens, I know that all those other people's feet...
Guest:have been in that shower or outside of the shower or are leaving the toilet seat up when they're pissing.
Guest:That kind of stuff.
Guest:Or looking back in the pillow I brought in the van, a bandmate is laying his head on it.
Guest:These kind of things can make my skin crawl sometimes if I'm in a state of real anxiety.
Guest:So there's a lot that...
Marc:is conflicting with that because sometimes when i'm i would say healthy yeah i can deal with that yeah right sure yeah yeah yeah but sometimes when i'm not it's terrible well i think it's like sadly it's the way your brain finds uh is grounds itself yeah right like if if things seem out of control you know lock into the pillow you know
Guest:A hundred percent.
Guest:And I mean, that actually just happened recently.
Guest:And and that's where also the codependency thing collides, because because, you know, my sweet little bandmate, Mikey, didn't know that I was my skin was crawling when I saw that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's hard to say something like, get your head off my pillow.
Guest:You know, it's like he doesn't have a nasty head.
Guest:It's not going to really do anything.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But that's not what was signaled to my brain.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:So did you get a cop of resentment?
Marc:No.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:I mean, yeah, I threw something at him, Mark.
Guest:No, I just, you know, I think sometimes, like, I think I did a joke or something at one point.
Guest:When we got out and got back in, I, like, maybe put it in the middle of the two front seats, and I was like, Mikey, this is mine.
Guest:You know?
Guest:you know but there's and and a lot of people like when i was first diagnosed ocd or or they were suspecting there was some stuff going on you know one of the things they ask you when you're like getting diagnosed with something or going through like a psych evaluation yeah how many hours a day do you spend on this yeah and when you add in codependency to something like this yeah you know now i'm thinking all right here's the way to solve this bring a garbage bag put the pillow in the garbage bag
Guest:and like you know it'll be a signal to everyone like don't take the pillow out of the garbage bag yeah you know so you're always having to think of ways to avoid troubleshoot conflict yeah and anxiety in yourself and everything so the codependency is trying to avoid conflict and the obsessive compulsive is the anxiety it's a full-time job it is a full-time job and that that's the point and that's why like you know certain people like myself need medication and we got to get you into a better hotel situation
Guest:I mean, I need to sell some records for that to happen, but yes, I would love that.
Guest:In this world we live in, it's funny with the streaming and stuff.
Guest:I might get obsessed on a song and listen to it 150 times to give an artist a sale, but...
Guest:I'm guessing a lot of people's brains don't work that way.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I get a lot of records, and your first record just cut right through me.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:I love it, and I love the second record.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:I appreciate it.
Marc:I don't know why, but I felt very connected to the emotions of it because it's weird.
Marc:I had to sit down with it today, both of them,
Marc:Because I'm not fully a lyric guy.
Marc:I just hear feelings.
Marc:It's not even melody.
Marc:It's tone and feelings coming through.
Marc:It's not that I don't like voice.
Marc:I like voice, but I have a hard time focusing on lyrics.
Marc:So I had to sit with them today when I was going to talk to you.
Marc:So I at least was informed of the poetry and could take what I could from it.
Guest:That's cool.
Guest:I appreciate that, Mark.
Marc:Yeah, no, but I remember when I first got the record, and I don't know what makes people buy records or what makes people moved by records, but there was something... It feels to me that whatever you're doing when you write your songs or when you sing them, that's a totally open zone for you somehow.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because now just talking to you and seeing how your brain works, it must be a real sort of portal to some sort of freedom for you.
Guest:Definitely, but at the same time, it may be the one area where I think maybe the obsessive compulsive disorder really pays off.
Guest:You know, the song you mentioned earlier, If You Were Someone I Love, that song was written over the course of probably five or six years.
Guest:I'm not like a factory when it comes to writing.
Guest:My one belief about songs in general,
Guest:You know, I can't lean on an incredibly interesting chord progression that's out of my wheelhouse, and I won't claim to.
Guest:But if I remember something, then I think it's meant to—and it sticks around, then I think there's something to that, and I chase it for a long time until I get it right.
Marc:Yeah, I do the same with material, because I don't—you know, I'm not—
Marc:I'm not making things to sell.
Marc:It's not my intent.
Marc:I'm moving through things emotionally and mentally.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:And I'll have an idea and I'll have enough of it to get a laugh or to land it.
Marc:But then sometimes they take years to resolve themselves.
Marc:I just keep putting them together.
Guest:Yup.
Guest:Yeah, that sounds a lot like my process.
Guest:I mean, there are songs that took years and years to write, and maybe there's one little part that it started with, but especially when it comes to lyrics,
Guest:If you have the idea for the music and the lyrics aren't matching the feeling of that, then you didn't say everything you needed to say.
Guest:And with that song in particular, just the overall theme of it, it was really hard to believe that I said everything I needed to say with that.
Guest:And that's when the acapella part came.
Guest:I was driving home from the studio.
Guest:That wasn't written over the course of many years.
Guest:That was after a nod at the studio.
Marc:It was like a coda.
Marc:Like a part where, because it almost, like, the thing it reminds me of is like something like, like, oh, death.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:You know, like something that comes down from that place.
Marc:Brat Stanley stuff.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know who did that.
Marc:I don't know what version of that I know.
Marc:It was probably something from the T-Bone Burnett record or, you know, I think Camper Van Beethoven covered it even.
Marc:But it's an old thing that speaks of, you know, a direct kind of conversation with the idea of it.
Marc:And there's that darkness in that song.
Guest:Yeah, it is.
Guest:And the funny thing, probably about three years before that came up, I had written a little note to myself that I really wanted to write a song about the Kilde bird.
Guest:And it's spelled Kildeer.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But we say Kilde where I'm from.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's a bird?
Marc:It's a bird.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that other song with the Kill Deep Bird in there is like a great song on that first, is that on the first record?
Guest:If It Ain't With Me Babe, yeah.
Marc:That's on the second record?
Guest:On the first record, yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:If It Ain't With Me Babe.
Marc:That's the one that's sort of like, yeah, it's sort of like a little Towns-y, a little Towns Van Dess Ant feeling to me.
Guest:I love Towns.
Marc:Yeah, man, that's like some heavy shit.
Marc:I can barely listen to him sometimes because it's too heavy for me.
Guest:It is really heavy.
Guest:I just hear it in his voice.
Guest:It's not even what he's saying.
Guest:Well, it's definitely not the music because some of the music is kind of like... It's his tone.
Marc:It's just the weight of his spirit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right?
Marc:But I felt that you must like him.
Guest:Yeah, I do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:On the drive out here, you know, it's like 17 hours, 17 and a half hours of Santa Fe.
Guest:That was where my first show was on this run.
Marc:I grew up in New Mexico.
Guest:Which part?
Marc:Albuquerque.
Guest:I drove through it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But that was, we didn't play there this time.
Marc:17 hours?
Marc:From Kentucky?
Marc:From Santa Fe or out here?
Marc:Oh.
Marc:What were you listening to?
Marc:I think you're about to say something.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I went through.
Guest:I'd never done it before.
Guest:Of course, I've listened to Lucinda Williams.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:um oh yeah she's another one you know went back and and tried to listen to albums that i hadn't before but i i have an obsession with the year 1971 in music and i listened to a lot of uh there was just a million great albums put out in that year interesting link ray yeah you ever listen to his self-titled album from 1971 yeah yeah with the big side of his head
Guest:on it with the it with the brimstone jukebox mama oh yeah those those like those records almost sound like stone's records those two he did the one the barn record and then that one yeah i mean but the way he delivers lines and stuff is amazing too and you know there was just something really special to me about that year some amazing records came out is that when karen's album came out that one
Marc:Did you watch that?
Marc:You gotta watch that doc.
Marc:Did you watch that doc?
Guest:Yeah, I haven't watched the doc.
Marc:It's okay.
Marc:It's okay.
Marc:But it tells you about her.
Marc:Like, I didn't know anything about her.
Marc:You know, and that whole scene up there in the hills, down the street from Tim Harden and those other cats.
Marc:I just don't know how those...
Marc:At that year, at that era, everyone was just sitting around shooting dope.
Marc:Like people smoke cigarettes.
Marc:I mean, have you ever seen anyone shoot dope?
Marc:It's heavy.
Marc:I mean, you can't just be in a room like, I guess there's just going to be some dope shooting over there.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But that's the way it was, man.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I can't imagine.
Guest:I'm just...
Guest:On the road, I'm just searching for a salad sometimes to get, you know, it's like.
Guest:Be thankful.
Guest:Be grateful every day.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like having a. Yeah.
Guest:Where can I get something healthy in this town?
Guest:Laura bars on the rider doesn't cut it, you know.
Marc:Believe me.
Marc:Like sometimes like I just had to give in, you know, Louisville.
Marc:I didn't eat well in Louisville.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I can't imagine, Mark.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So what would you say just in a lot of these songs?
Marc:Like, okay, so the new one, Keeper of the Time.
Marc:Because I can have an experience with words.
Marc:But these words are very deliberate.
Marc:And they're not a story necessarily, but they're evocative.
Marc:But I don't know necessarily where they come from.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What is that?
Marc:What is the keeper of the time?
Marc:That song seems like a heavy song.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, that's just about how trauma gets stored in the body.
Marc:Well, that one, yeah, that one, yeah.
Marc:So that one's like... But do you, like, are you somebody that have, do you have that?
Marc:Trauma?
Marc:Yes, in your body from way back?
Guest:Yeah, I've done EMDR and different things, you know, and I think through that experience is kind of how I came to that song, for sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:just understanding more about it and understanding maybe
Guest:I guess a person's capacity for burying stuff within themself too.
Guest:When did it happen?
Guest:When?
Guest:The trauma?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I would probably say there was just a lot of trauma around the time I was coming out.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Guest:Like came out in the world and stuff like that.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:So there was a lot of- So it's new.
Marc:So it's not like some weird kind of like- 20s.
Guest:20s.
Marc:I was six years old in my- No.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, so it's tangible.
Guest:You can track it.
Guest:100%.
Marc:Yeah, I think EMDR works better when you can really track it.
Guest:For sure.
Marc:Where you're like, this is what happened.
Marc:Let's do that one.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, like, you know, when people are talking about like their inner child and how you were taught to love or whatever, that might be a little hard to separate because, you know.
Guest:that was so long ago.
Guest:Understanding that part of yourself, I feel like, takes a lot of work.
Guest:But, yeah, if trauma is more close to you, I think you can more easily identify it.
Marc:And help yourself, yeah, because the stuff that happens in childhood, you know, sometimes it comes, I think, comes back in flashes, and some of that kind of stuff really kind of rewires who you are and who you could have been.
Marc:And so, you know, to unpack that stuff is...
Guest:Yeah, and for survival, you dissociate and you purposefully forget.
Guest:So memory's a weird thing like that.
Marc:But yours is relatively fresh.
Guest:Yeah, it'll be relatively fresh for sure.
Marc:But all in all, in terms of the experience now post coming out, you feel comfortable and good?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I would say that, yeah, I mean, I'm I'm totally comfortable with who I am.
Guest:It's it's strange talking to people about it because, you know, in my current situation and for many years.
Guest:I don't have like a huge queer community around me.
Guest:I live in a rural place.
Guest:Most of all of my friends are straight.
Guest:So, you know, now all of a sudden that a lot of journalists and things want to talk about my sexuality, I'm finding it a little hard because I don't have a lot of practice in that.
Guest:And I don't really I don't really find it super relevant.
Guest:And of course, I will always advocate for my existence and others like me.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And thank God for people, and I don't want to dishonor people who've come before me who make it safe for me to sit here saying this.
Guest:But at the same time, I think a lot of it, as far as being a musician and having my sexuality front and center with certain things, of course there's certain songs that might have to deal with that.
Guest:Sure, yeah.
Guest:But it's not who I am as an entire person or something.
Guest:So sometimes when it comes to press and it's just all about they want to know certain things about sexuality, it feels like I am involved in trauma porn.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And that's hard for me.
Marc:And also, like, it is, you know, once it's like that old, who was it?
Marc:Descartes or Kierkegaard, I don't know who said it, but, you know, once you label me, you diminish me.
Marc:So, like, you know, and it kind of contextual, it compartmentalizes.
Guest:Yeah, well, it's kind of like you're always through a lot of questions about your sexuality.
Guest:Like they might say, well, we're wanting to give representation.
Guest:Well, at the same time, you're also othering me.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:And that's like a thing that I don't feel like people really think about that much when it comes to...
Guest:the focus of a piece, especially when it comes to someone who's an artist, I don't really think the people in the 60s were like, we're gonna stick our necks out so that future generations can continuously other themselves.
Guest:That's not the point.
Marc:No, and also I think both records
Marc:These are not anthems of gay life.
Marc:Some of them are very kind of longing songs.
Marc:They're kind of like painful love songs, some of them.
Guest:And we can't relate to that.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And once you start talking too much maybe about it or being othered, then the identification becomes that's going to be the identification with the records before anyone even listens to them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's just like, oh, she's a real queer southerner.
Guest:And by the way, she makes music and you can find it here on this platform.
Guest:But, you know, I'll say this.
Guest:As much as it might be, for me, a personal decision to, you know, or rather say it might be out of my comfort zone to focus on that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't find it relevant to me.
Guest:I understand as a person who had no queer people in positions of authority or in respectable roles around them as a kid.
Guest:Representation.
Marc:does matter sure it's just you know sometimes i'm not really sure if the world's ready for my type well i think like there's nothing wrong with uh with uh you know relatively uh uh um uh decisive and somewhat quiet queer representation and just being able to go listen the records you know
Guest:I mean, it's just it's a it's a part of who I am that I'm not ashamed of anyway.
Guest:And it's like, but there are things about I don't think sometimes the queer community understands that the like.
Guest:What people, I don't know, sometimes think of as the queer experience is not mine.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I'm not.
Guest:There's no metro normativity here.
Guest:I don't live in a city.
Guest:I've never had a large group of gay people.
Guest:I don't go to gay.
Guest:I've been to one gay club in my life.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:You know, I mean, and I don't like parades.
Guest:I'll never go to a pride parade.
Guest:Like, how dangerous is that?
Guest:Like, I would freak out.
Guest:Like, I've been to one big parade in my life, Rue de Vue in New Orleans.
Guest:I had a terrible time.
Guest:I was scared the whole time.
Guest:Yeah, I know I play in front of a lot of people sometimes, but I'm on stage and I know where the back door is.
Guest:I'm not going out.
Guest:there you know so it's like yeah there's a lot of stuff about what people how people think you should be out yes that is not me right it doesn't mean i give a shit about what you do i don't that's you're right yeah but i just it's not me yeah yeah yeah let me do my thing yeah yeah it's just me and and and and you do it i just you
Marc:the the songs you know about about love about loss and about you know moments uh that reveal things that are surprising and also you know social activism is definitely on both records i mean about rich and poor about exploitation yeah and that's you know i think
Guest:um that's something about myself and something i deeply care about with more than talking about my sexuality it's about you know how you know exploitation a hundred percent uh corporate farming even that that's in there you know a lot of these things are they're really complicated and i think a lot of times um you know listen
Guest:The South is our best friend and our own worst enemy at times.
Guest:Certain stereotypes are true, but there's a lot of misrepresentation for rural places and rural people.
Guest:And I'm not trying to be a poster child for rural areas or something like that, but it...
Guest:I do find it important to let people know who, you know, want to, you know, basically exile people from the South or whatever.
Guest:There's a lot of good work being done there.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And we should pay attention to what's happening in the South because it's a good idea of really what's it's the soul of the country.
Guest:You know, the soul is the body.
Guest:And that's been that's what I believe in.
Guest:So I always like to talk about, as an insider to that life, you know, what I see.
Marc:Well, every time, it's like I'm always, you know, having been kind of, you know, I wouldn't say, I grew up in New Mexico, but I'm a progressive person who does comedy, who has certainly heard and maybe at some point in my life
Marc:you know, stereotyped Southerners, but every time I go down there, I am like deeply enchanted with people, with the place, with being there.
Marc:I mean, every time, as I've gotten older, I've let go of all of that.
Marc:There's no way to generalize about the South.
Guest:It's very complex.
Marc:Very complex.
Guest:It's just the same thing, you know, we were talking earlier about my upbringing in the church.
Guest:Every negative thing I could say about institutional religion or whatever, is it institutional or institutionalized?
Guest:What would that be?
Marc:I think it's institutional.
Guest:Whatever.
Guest:Everything negative that I could say about the church, I could say something positive, especially in relation to rural communities.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:They're the local welfare.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:They help people survive.
Guest:They provide a sense of community, a social thing.
Guest:And they help people.
Guest:They help people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's something, it's like, I don't really like for people to just slam the church in front of me because it's like, actually, as a person who can speak some truth around some bad parts, I can also do that about some good parts.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And that's a part of that complexity there.
Marc:Yeah, if service is righteous and a part of it, you know, and it's not exclusionary, it's very important to community.
Guest:Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, and even, you know, unfortunately, it's like, even if it is exclusive, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:If it's feeding people that are hungry, like, you can still say when something is good, too.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:You know?
Marc:Yeah, of course.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's hard.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, no, I get it.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:No, I get it.
Marc:You know, even if they're just feeding their own, people need to eat.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Just, you know.
Marc:I get it.
Guest:Yeah, it's very complicated.
Marc:And you love it, living down there.
Guest:I do.
Guest:I'm struggling over here because of dryness.
Guest:Good Lord.
Guest:Terrible.
Guest:Y'all just walking around suffering.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Marc:Believe me.
Marc:I'm trying to plan my escape.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Maybe I'll come to Kentucky.
Guest:Hey, you know what?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Anytime you want to be shown around, I'll show you some pretty places.
Guest:It's a gorgeous state.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I do love the South.
Guest:I love, you know, I love the pace.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I love the humidity.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think, you know, I mean, I know I'm biased, but I've been a lot of places at this point.
Guest:And I think it's...
Marc:you know yeah Kentucky and Tennessee to me are their own special kind of beauty and and like and the amazing thing is is that you know given that that pace and and how your creativity works and the time you put in I mean you can hear it in all of the music the place where you come from and it's a beautiful thing thank you it was good uh good talking to you well thanks for having me you feel you feel it does it feel whole you feel complete do we do it
Guest:I think so.
Guest:If you feel like that, I think we did.
Guest:Yeah, it was a good talk.
Marc:I'm going to take you up on the Kentucky thing.
Guest:Hey, honestly, my house is empty.
Guest:You can stay there.
Marc:Okay, I'll let you know.
Guest:Go for it.
Marc:Thanks.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:Go get that record.
Marc:I like that.
Marc:I like that.
Marc:That's an interesting story.
Marc:Christianity, OCD, gayness.
Marc:So it's powerful.
Marc:It's a powerful trinity.
Marc:I beg you.
Marc:I don't beg you, but I implore you, or I recommend highly that you go get that record Teeth Marks, which is available wherever you get your music.
Marc:You can also go to sggoodman.net for her tour dates, music, and videos.
Marc:All right, so let's all just stay here for a second.
Marc:Just hang out.
Marc:Relax.
Relax.
Marc:Hey, look, listen, for full Marin subscribers, we posted the latest Ask Mark Anything this week.
Marc:Thanks to everyone who submitted questions.
Marc:And if you're a subscriber, you can hear if I answered yours.
Marc:If you're not subscribed, go to WTFPod.com and click on WTF Plus or go to the link in the episode description right there in your podcast player.
Marc:All right.
Marc:On Monday show, I talked to Simu Liu.
Marc:I just gave that a little old-school radio.
Marc:And Simu Liu.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:That was a good conversation, actually.
Marc:I'm in Tucson, Arizona at the Rialto Theater on September 16th.
Marc:Phoenix, Arizona at Stand Up Live on September 17th.
Marc:Boulder, Colorado at the Boulder Theater on September 22nd.
Marc:Fort Collins, Colorado at the Lincoln Center on September 23rd.
Marc:And Toronto, Ontario at the Queen Elizabeth Theater on September 30th and October 1st.
Marc:I'll be in London, England at the Bloomsbury Theater Saturday and Sunday, October 22nd and 23rd.
Marc:I'll be
Marc:Back in Dublin, Ireland at Vicar Street, Wednesday, October 26th.
Marc:I have dates in November and December in Oklahoma City, Dallas, San Antonio, Houston, Eugene, Oregon, Bend, Oregon, Asheville, North Carolina, and Nashville, Tennessee.
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com slash tour for all the dates and ticket info again.
Marc:Those tickets for my HBO special taping on December 8th at the Town Hall in New York City are available there as well.
Marc:Pre-sale tickets today through 10 o'clock tonight.
Marc:The code is TIME, T-I-M-E.
Marc:I would go with all caps on that.
Marc:And tickets are on sale to the general public starting tomorrow, Friday at 10 a.m.
Marc:Eastern.
Marc:Here's some guitar.
Marc:Did this in one take.
Marc:You could probably tell.
Yeah.
Bye.
Marc:boomer lives monkey and la fonda cat angels everywhere