Episode 136 - The Lost WTFs
Guest:Lock the gates!
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Wait for it.
Guest:Are we doing this?
Guest:Wait for it.
Marc:Pow!
Marc:What the fuck?
Marc:And it's also, eh, what the fuck?
Marc:What's wrong with me?
Marc:It's time for WTF!
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:With Marc Maron.
Marc:Okay, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fucking knots?
Marc:What the fuck next?
Marc:What the fuck?
Marc:It's the end of the year 2010.
Marc:What a year it's been.
Marc:I wish I could do one of those shows where I just sit here and look back at the year and all of its beauty and all of the amazing things that happened.
Marc:But we're not going to do that.
Marc:This show, actually, we're going to share with you some things that didn't
Marc:The Lost What the Fucks.
Marc:Little bits and pieces of this and that that didn't make it onto the shows for whatever reason or not.
Marc:It's an interesting show.
Marc:We've got a bit of Toby Huss, some Dan St.
Marc:Germain, Eddie Pepitone, some Dr. Steve, some Jim Gaffigan.
Marc:Just things that didn't make it into the episodes, and I'll try to explain why when I bring those up.
Marc:But now let's discuss this.
Marc:Let's deal with this end-of-the-year thing.
Marc:I personally have had a pretty good year for the most part.
Marc:It seems to me I've made a lot of progress in some areas, some areas not so much.
Marc:I just went back to New Mexico last weekend, and thanks for coming out, by the way, all you Albuquerqueans and those two guys.
Marc:addison and jackson who drove down from denver colorado to hang out on the day after christmas boxing day in new mexico thank you for coming out it was great to see you guys and of course i saw the old man and as you know i'm i'm a little vulnerable i'm a little fucked up in the head my heart's a little twisted uh because of recent events and there i was with my dad in my dad's house
Marc:Looking at my father, listening to my father, the Rosetta Stone of all of my problems.
Marc:There to be decoded, taken in, try to be assessed.
Marc:Sad is what it was, a little bit sad.
Marc:And, you know, I got an email recently from a woman who said, you know, quit blaming your parents, this, that, and the other thing.
Marc:I'm not blaming anybody.
Marc:I'm not angry at anybody.
Marc:It's just as of late, after all you guys thought that everything was okay and you had some concerns that maybe Marin would become well-adjusted.
Marc:No fear.
Marc:No fears, folks.
Marc:It's not happening overnight.
Marc:A lot of things happened in the last couple of weeks.
Marc:It just shook me up.
Marc:Have you ever done something?
Marc:Has something ever come out of you?
Marc:Have you ever manifested behavior or taken an action or thought a thought that made you say, holy fuck, where did that come from?
Marc:I just scared the shit out of myself.
Marc:How often have you scared the shit out of yourself, either emotionally or through an action or through something that just emanated out of your being?
Marc:And then you said, Jesus Christ, am I going to live with that for the rest of my life or am I going to track that thing down, chase it down the rabbit hole?
Marc:So that's that's what I'm going to do this next year, as I said.
Marc:I'm very grateful for the year.
Marc:I'm grateful for the way the shows have gone.
Marc:I think I've made some progress as a person.
Marc:I think that career-wise, things have been looking up a bit.
Marc:I'm not going to jump up and down completely because it's just not what I do.
Marc:I'm always sort of waiting for the other shoe to drop, and it always does somewhere.
Marc:If you listen closely, there's a sound of another shoe dropping somewhere.
Marc:I guess what I'm saying is as we enter the new year,
Marc:I used to be one of those people that thought, you know, you can't change.
Marc:People don't change.
Marc:I look at my father.
Marc:I spent two days with my father.
Marc:He's not going to change.
Marc:He may say he's going to change, but he doesn't even say that.
Marc:He's just going to be what he is.
Marc:But I no longer believe that people can't change.
Marc:I have to believe that we can change if we just take actions against our instincts.
Marc:Maybe you shouldn't follow your heart.
Marc:Maybe you shouldn't follow your brain.
Marc:Maybe you should just follow the part of your brain that knows better.
Marc:You can't help but change because time humbles and crumbles all of us.
Marc:And hopefully you just let that happen with some dignity and maybe you can become a better person.
Marc:Look, I have to think that things will maybe not get better, but at least that I can be a little more fucking realistic, a little more honest with myself and with others.
Marc:It's a fucking struggle.
Marc:I think I'm more honest with you guys than I am with fucking anyone else in the world.
Marc:It's ridiculous.
Marc:Then again, I don't have that many people in my life.
Marc:But nonetheless, have a great New Year.
Marc:Be careful New Year's Eve.
Marc:Don't die.
Marc:So let's start with this.
Marc:Here's Dan St.
Marc:Germain.
Marc:Now, Dan was on the live What the Fuck that, you know, the same one we had Mike DiStefano on, the one we did in New York at Comics.
Marc:It was his second show, and it just got a little bad.
Marc:It's not even that good of a story, so I don't need to go on and on about it.
Marc:But we couldn't use the whole show.
Marc:But Dan was great, and we wanted to make sure you got to hear him.
Marc:My first guest is like a new powerhouse here in the New York comedy scene.
Marc:He hails from New Jersey, and he dons a New Jersey beard.
Marc:Please welcome Dan St.
Marc:Germain to the stage.
Marc:Look at this fucking guy.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:That is commitment.
Marc:That's a serious beard.
Marc:Like when did you start growing that?
Guest:Like eighth grade?
Guest:Yeah, six weeks ago.
Guest:No, you didn't.
Guest:And you just pushed?
Guest:I cut it off a year ago because I thought like, oh, this is like just everyone's getting a beard.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I used to be attractive like six years ago, but now I have no chin.
Guest:So I just listen to like a lot of Regina Spector, like Samson by myself, just tears coming down the whole time.
Guest:So you need something to absorb the tears?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Your beard is a tear sponge?
Guest:That's the name of my first album, by the way.
Guest:Tear sponge?
Guest:Tear sponge, yeah.
Marc:I think it's good.
Guest:Thanks, man.
Marc:So you have a double chin under there?
Marc:Is that what you're saying?
Guest:I have no chin whatsoever.
Guest:There's like nothing.
Marc:That's fucking sad.
Marc:That's one of my biggest fears.
Marc:I don't have any fat down there, do I?
Guest:No, no, you were beautiful.
Marc:All right, good.
Marc:Thanks, Mom.
Marc:That's my biggest fear, is to have that for my... You know, let's not go into me.
Marc:Let's stay with you, Dan.
Marc:So now, you don't drink anymore.
Guest:No, I quit.
Guest:Because you talk about it.
Guest:Yeah, I quit over two years ago.
Marc:Now, can you tell us about how you hit bottom?
Marc:Because those are always really fun stories.
Marc:Tell us your deepest, darkest secrets about that moment.
Guest:I was caught doing cocaine naked in my parents' living room.
Guest:So that was it.
Marc:Yes, that deserves a round of applause.
Marc:Now, like, I want the full picture.
Marc:So why did you feel like it was okay to be doing coke naked in your parents' living room?
Guest:Well, I thought they were gone for the weekend, so... Excellent.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So it was like a Donald Sutherland marathon.
Guest:I don't know why I was... I just had it all stacked up, you know, and it was just me naked wrapped with a towel around me.
Guest:And they came in, they came early, and the only thing I could... I swear to God, the only thing I could think of, because I'm naked, I go, don't come in, I'm masturbating!
Guest:You know your life's in a sad fucking place if masturbation's the safe option with your parents, you know?
Guest:And this was just a couple years ago?
Guest:Well, this was three years ago, and then I relapsed a shitload.
Guest:But, like, that was my bottom.
Guest:That's when I realized I probably shouldn't do that anymore.
Marc:So they walk in.
Marc:You're naked.
Marc:And you've already told them that you were masturbating.
Marc:So you scramble to hide the cocaine.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I can't.
Guest:I put some of it.
Guest:Well, the thing is, it was in a blanket.
Guest:So I put the bag at the corner of the blanket.
Guest:And then there was cocaine on the table.
Guest:And I shoved it up my ass.
Guest:No, you did not.
Guest:I swear to God.
Guest:Because I knew I needed more cocaine.
Marc:So you shoved a bag of cocaine in your ass.
Guest:I was like the worst Mexican drug mule ever.
Guest:You just wanted to smuggle it to your bedroom.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Guest:And then I read E.E.
Guest:Cummings and did cocaine, like the ass cocaine.
Guest:That was like the saddest Oscar Wilde you've ever seen in your life.
Guest:And my dad had driven me back because he wanted to drive me to a meeting, but he forgot that when you're all fucked up on whiskey, you're like, fuck
Guest:you dad you know what I'm saying but when you're on cocaine you're just really agreeable yeah so like he was like you have a problem like I know man I know I have a problem what's going on who do you think killed JFK you know like non-stop like sure military doughboy I think so yeah
Marc:So that was that?
Guest:I mean, there was a bunch of other shit too, but that's when I realized that I had a problem.
Marc:But the cocaine in the ass, so let's stay there for a minute.
Marc:So you said you were masturbating, you scramble, you stick cocaine in your ass, and you try to stash the other shit, and then you've got the cocaine in your ass, and you go up to your room, and what did they say when they walked in?
Guest:Well, they didn't see... Well, they saw me doing the cocaine in the living room, but then they went to bed.
Guest:And you're like, I get... Yeah, but I knew there was beer in the basement, so I went down my boxers to the basement to drink beer while my mom, who taught in elementary school, got ready upstairs.
Guest:So I was like this fat, hairy golem, like, throwing the lights, like, waiting for my parents to be done, and then I ran upstairs as soon as she left.
Marc:So you went downstairs to drink beer and pull the cocaine out of your ass.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Well, I did the cocaine in my room, and then I did the beer downstairs.
Marc:That's a great story.
Marc:I appreciate you sharing that.
Marc:That's much better than mine.
Marc:I just heard voices in my head.
Marc:I used to hear a lot of voices in my head because I did so much... Yeah, from sleep deprivation.
Marc:I don't know if you've ever experienced that, but it's awesome.
Marc:And I've talked about this before.
Marc:Yeah, but if you lose enough sleep, you will hear voices in your head.
Marc:And as I say often, it's never one, it's always many.
Marc:And you spend a lot of time trying to get them to pick a fucking leader.
LAUGHTER
Marc:so i used to lay in bed going who's in charge who's in charge somebody come on just you know give me some instructions i know i'm designated to do something i know i've been chosen i'm picked but somebody's really got to take charge here and tell me what to do and literally one night i was laying in my bed i'd been up for three days i was sweating i was listening to my heart pound which was a hobby of mine um
Marc:And I literally said, how far out can I go?
Marc:I said that audibly, out loud, in a voice I'd never heard before, right here, said, you've gone far enough.
Marc:The next day, I packed everything I owned in my car, and I left L.A.
Marc:I gave a bunch of shit away, and I thought I was in direct contact with something.
Marc:I didn't know if it was Satan.
Marc:I didn't know if it was God, but I knew that when I got home, I renewed my passport because I thought I might have to go.
Marc:Was it unclear what the mission was?
Marc:Sure, I went to rehab.
Marc:That was the mini ring period, I call it.
Marc:Yeah, you knew that about me, or you did that too?
Marc:No, no, no, I knew that.
Marc:Holy shit, I've talked about everything with you people.
Yeah.
Marc:That's exactly right.
Marc:I had to wear skull rings and a skull shirt and usually a hat.
Marc:Sometimes a Rastafarian tab I wore.
Marc:So I was a guy in rehab that had a system.
Marc:You know, everybody else was just trying to get clean, but I'm like, don't fuck with my system.
Marc:If the hat goes, I don't know what's going to happen.
Marc:But I was told that I was to leave.
Marc:Not rehab.
Marc:And I was also the guy in rehab where they, for some reason, at some rehabs, they have a massage therapist there as part of the treatment.
Marc:And they had a big board of who was scheduled to do what.
Marc:And I'd always, like, when the person who was watching the rehab would go away, I'd always write my name on the massage board.
Guest:So the guy ended up giving me, like, you know, nine massages a week.
Marc:And he's only supposed to give me two.
Marc:And eventually they're like, why the fuck did you do that?
Marc:I'm like, who wouldn't do that?
Marc:Why are you so stupid?
Yeah.
Marc:You're surrounded by drug addicts.
Marc:You don't think someone's gonna fuck with the system, fucking idiot.
Marc:Did you go to rehab?
Guest:I went to outpatient, and then they kicked me out.
Guest:Pussy.
Guest:Well, I had a job, man.
Guest:I couldn't just go like two months to fucking hang out with Lucy Lohan and pet horses and talk about how much I love myself.
Guest:I fucking went to outpatient like a man, and I fell in love with my therapist, so they kicked me out kind of there.
Guest:Did you consummate it, man?
Guest:No, I said, I think I really want to have sex with you.
Guest:And she said, well, that's good to know.
LAUGHTER
Guest:She said, but I've been in a happy relationship with this musician.
Guest:I was like, oh, it's always a fucking musician.
Marc:She told you that?
Marc:What a fucking inappropriate therapist.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:I was not wrong at all.
Guest:Her, she was always fucked.
Marc:No, but they're supposed to go, I think that's transference.
Marc:It's probably healthy.
Marc:Let's talk about it.
Marc:Not like, fuck you.
Marc:I go out with a musician.
Guest:What kind of fucking therapist is that?
Guest:You see then going, he fucks me so good.
Guest:Little man.
Guest:Too bad you're so fucked up or I might fuck you.
Marc:Not that far.
Guest:bad the worst the worst this is still the worst like yeah well there's two like really humiliating things i had with uh women when i was drinking yeah well there was fucking 50 but like i went out with a girl but i knew i was gonna get laid that night i knew it and i got way too drunk yeah and she let me pass out on her couch nice and about two hours later i saw another guy go into a room and they fucked and i heard it all night and i was just but i was still like too drunk to leave so i just like
Marc:Did you sit there and, did you jerk off?
Guest:What?
Guest:No, I couldn't get it up at that point.
Guest:That's a big problem with cocaine.
Guest:Have you ever drank so much whiskey, your penis looks severed?
Guest:Like, that's at that point where it was at.
Marc:The one story that, then we'll move on.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Marc:It's late.
Marc:It's late.
Marc:I remember one night, like, I got really drunk, and I got all coked up, and I ended up, you know, going to this girl's house, and obviously I couldn't fuck, and I was so fucking pissed off, and there's nothing, that's really hot, is a guy with coke dick who's getting angry that he can't fuck you.
Guest:There's nothing hotter to a woman than some guy sweating, yelling, just stay still, just stay still.
Guest:Just let me do it.
Guest:Let me do it.
Guest:And so I couldn't, I couldn't fucking do it.
Guest:And I was furious and I couldn't sleep.
Guest:And I just sat there feeling like emasculated.
Marc:And then like I left after she fell asleep and I went back to my hotel and I was just, I just sat there seething for like four hours until the Coke wore off.
Marc:And then at six 30 in the morning, I drove back to her house, went back upstairs and said, I can do it now.
Guest:Fucking
Guest:Yeah, I fucked her.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Dan St.
Marc:Germain, ladies and gentlemen.
Marc:Toby Huss was in the garage and he did that bit.
Marc:You guys heard Frank Sinatra's illegitimate son, Rudy Cassoni.
Marc:I've always been a fan of Toby.
Marc:He's a great guy.
Marc:He's a genuine guy.
Marc:But we had a long conversation with him as him that we didn't use.
Marc:And he talked about some great stuff, including this bit of conversation about working with Werner Herzog.
Marc:We'll be right back.
Guest:No, I was in the other, the Rescue Dawn of Renner Herzog picture.
Guest:Yeah, that's right.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:It was one of Herzog's protégés.
Guest:Herzog got Kelsey Grammer and said, that's my man.
Guest:I must have him.
Guest:He's so wonderful from his cheers.
Guest:Psychiatrist man.
Guest:I will put him in this crazy movie of submarines and funny man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Shooting their own Navy.
Guest:And how did that movie do?
Guest:$100,000.
Guest:He was crazy.
Guest:Amazing amounts of money.
Guest:It was an experiment for Herzog.
Guest:Yeah, that's what made him do it.
Guest:No, there was one thing.
Guest:He was telling Healy, I think he was telling Healy.
Guest:Pat Healy, the actor who once lived in this house.
Guest:Yeah, and who was in Rescue Dawn.
Guest:I think when he told Healy, he said, what's the name of this movie going to be?
Guest:And he said, Rescue Dawn.
Guest:I saw Rescue Dawn.
Guest:Well, he said, hey, don't you think that that's going to, you know, people are going to go see it thinking it's a, you know, they're going to go see it thinking it's a Dolph Lundgren movie.
Guest:And Herzog went, which is great.
Yeah.
Guest:Did you see that grizzly man?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Holy shit.
Marc:You're an arty motherfucker.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You also did one of the voices on King of the Hill, right?
Guest:I did a couple.
Guest:I did that Laotian neighbor guy.
Guest:But didn't you do one of the main dudes?
Guest:No, I didn't do one of the main dudes.
Guest:I was like the sixth man off the bench.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm not going to, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there was the grandfather, the cotton, the grandfather guy.
Guest:Did he yelly?
Guest:He was a yelly, yelly man.
Guest:Most of the guys that I do...
Guest:Yeah, yelling.
Guest:I had a lot of yelling in voiceovers and stuff.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah, apparently.
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:I always just do a version of me.
Marc:I did three voices for the life of Tim, and I hope they space them out a little bit because they're going to be like, the hotel manager sounds a lot like that restaurant manager.
Guest:Well, no, what was the hotel?
Guest:Come on, do the hotel manager.
Marc:Basically, it's some version of like, you guys have to leave.
Guest:You can't just come in here and do this and that because, I mean, listen to you guys.
Guest:This is not right.
Guest:That's pretty good, though.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, that's specific to Hotelier.
Guest:I mean, that's nice.
Guest:I did a lot of research.
Guest:What about Herzog ordering food at the restaurant where the waiter guy you did worked?
Guest:Yes, could I have some more clams?
Guest:Are there more clams that I have?
Guest:We don't offer clams in this much.
Guest:You're asking for too many clams.
Guest:Fantastic.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Fantastic.
Guest:Am I hired?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:All the kids are going to want to listen to that.
Marc:Could one of our fans please animate that?
Marc:That's Werner Herzog ordering more clams.
Guest:Should we give him a little more to work with?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's a question I have about this pineapple chunks that I have.
Guest:Is this pineapple on my beef?
Guest:Yeah, well, that was what you ordered.
Guest:You ordered the... Beef pineapple?
Guest:The Hawaiian steak.
Guest:The Hawaiian steak?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Is this pineapple, is this mouse?
Marc:No, that's pineapple, sir, and if you want me to bring it back, I can bring it back.
Marc:Useless.
Marc:I found you useless.
Marc:Okay, it is mice.
Marc:It is mice.
Marc:We use mice.
Marc:We put mice on the sticks.
Guest:This whole restaurant is an abomination.
Guest:I should leave now.
Guest:I'm stabbing you with a fork stab.
Guest:Hold on.
Guest:Let me get my manager.
Guest:No.
Guest:Nine.
Guest:Nine.
Guest:What's happening here?
Guest:Wow.
Guest:That's a breakthrough.
Guest:What's happening here?
Marc:How do you know?
Marc:Can I help you, sir?
Marc:My waiter said there's a problem.
Marc:Well, this German guy says there's mice on the steak.
Marc:I'm sorry, sir.
Marc:Are you not happy with your food?
Guest:No, I've left.
Guest:I've left the restaurant.
Guest:I'm yelling from outside through a window.
Guest:I've punched in.
Marc:So now let's talk about this.
Marc:The thing that kind of puts you over the top was the MTV Frank Sinatra.
Guest:And before that I was doing, I did this character, Artie, the strongest man in the world on this show, The Adventures of Pete and Pete.
Guest:I don't remember that.
Guest:It's funny because all these kids now that watched it when they were kids all are getting to be in their early 20s.
Guest:I just did some podcasting with this guy, Roger, and he remembers it from when he was a child.
Guest:Oh, it's great to have you on.
Guest:He did the whole thing.
Guest:When I was a kid, when I was like seven, you were so funny.
Guest:So now I'm that guy.
Guest:I'm Bob Denver.
Guest:Well, yeah, Bob Denver.
Guest:Well, not that big, for God's sake.
Guest:So tell me about Gilligan again.
Guest:I mean, so how did that happen?
Guest:Well, when I blow my brains out, then... Did he kill himself?
Guest:No, he didn't.
Guest:No, no, he's still around.
Guest:Is he?
Guest:I think he died.
Guest:Oh, did he?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But he didn't blow his brains out.
Guest:He died meekly, like Gilligan would, I think.
Marc:Gilligan.
Marc:You do the photography, too.
Marc:Yeah, I do that.
Marc:But you're that guy, like, you know, I got a couple friends that you're capable of doing things.
Marc:You're driving around in a truck.
Marc:You've got hammers in there.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You know, it smells like a guy.
Marc:You don't smoke cigarettes anymore, but you probably bought the car.
Marc:It smelled like cigarettes.
Guest:Yeah, the F-150 I have.
Guest:I smoke a lot and there's burn holes on the seat.
Guest:And I just got a new studio.
Guest:So yesterday I was tearing down these walls in a new studio.
Guest:So you like to tear down walls.
Guest:You like to build shit.
Guest:Do you make cabinets?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You do?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:I don't make cabinets.
Guest:I'm going to make some shelves for some stuff.
Guest:I have some art projects planned.
Guest:So that's the other thing, the visual art fantasy.
Guest:Yeah, visual art.
Guest:Well, that's the thing that is incorporated into that.
Marc:But we know that acting is a ridiculous lazy game.
Marc:Yeah, it is.
Marc:And that comedy for me is just like, it's because I live in somewhat of an eternal now of the mind that is just designed to fight panic.
Marc:And that we have these other ambitions.
Marc:Because I remember seeing a picture of you somewhere at somebody's house when you were younger.
Marc:You were in college.
Marc:You were clearly at the cutting edge of whatever outfits you were wearing.
Marc:You had big dreams.
Marc:And they looked more along the lines of perhaps Robert Wilson, somebody who created large stagecraft.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That there was a sort of late 70s, mid 80s performance art dream somewhere buried in the husk.
Guest:Yeah, there was.
Guest:And I did that a lot in New York.
Guest:Like what?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had this one, you know, I had this one.
Guest:It was funny because it was before all your internet-y, computer-y Jigamarole.
Guest:But I had this nice self-instruction tape, or a self-instruction LP.
Guest:It was about how to succeed in business sort of thing.
Guest:And it was, this guy was talking about how to increase your vocabulary and increase your business acumen and go from an anthill to a mountain.
Guest:And I remember I recorded some pieces of that, I forget what they were, and it was just, and it was a good 15 minutes of that thing and a tape going over and over and over and over and me sitting in overalls and like a helmet on a chair with a bunch of beer around me going, oh, fuck.
Guest:Oh, fuck.
Guest:And really it was 15 minutes of that.
Guest:It was very refreshing and fun, yeah.
Guest:And I did a lot of performance on the Lower East Side and did that, but that's always,
Guest:sort of been the component of it, and when acting slows up, because you can't just, you know, say you're an actor and walk around the world and just do that.
Guest:I think, I think you're gonna drive you so fucking crazy.
Guest:You can do that in LA.
Guest:Yeah, in Los Angeles, yeah.
Guest:And you've got enough credits to justify it, but in the rest of the world, it's hard.
Marc:Yeah, people are like, yeah, what do you do for money?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But it's interesting that the progress from that, because when I was growing up, I think we're about the same age, that there was a world like that.
Marc:There was a performance art world.
Marc:There was an art world that had a very clear definition.
Marc:It seemed to be important enough to inspire people like us to appreciate.
Marc:Like I did when I was in college, I had a thing for breaking televisions.
Marc:And I would go out of my way to destroy televisions.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:And I found a bust of John F. Kennedy.
Marc:an old camera, a Brownie McGee camera from the 50s and an old television.
Marc:And what I did was I spray painted the JFK bust red and I knocked its nose off.
Marc:Okay, I knocked its nose off like a Greek statue.
Marc:And then I painted the camera, spray painted it blue.
Marc:So opaque blue.
Marc:And I spray painted the television opaque white.
Marc:And I just drove a hammer into it.
Marc:And I set them up on a pedestal.
Marc:And I was like, I'm done.
Marc:That's pretty good.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But there was a time where you could express yourself like that.
Marc:And I think it had resonance.
Marc:But what the fuck do you do with that?
Marc:If somebody doesn't write about you in Art Forum or in a magazine with a one-word title like Musk or Donk.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Gunk.
Guest:Then you're not justified.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Well, and even if they do write about you in art forum, then what?
Guest:That's Tuesday.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The article came out Thursday.
Guest:So then, then what?
Marc:Well, I think what those guys do is that because then you take your art forum article and you send it to a, to a grant foundation and you've been, you've
Guest:fill out a bunch of paper and you're in that world look at this this is the thing i did with the kennedy head and the tv and the camera got a lot of attention in gunk and art form also wrote a blurb on it will you send me ten thousand dollars well you know what you know i'm always sort of of two minds about that because i think that the government should be funding some sort of uh you know they should have funded that much more arts programs the statement about them but i remember when when when like uh
Guest:was it Helms and those guys were going nuts when they forced Reagan in to cut a lot of the funding for those guys, and the NEA4 were going on as Armstrong and Finley and those guys, and they kept citing there was this one performance art piece where these guys got like $10,000, whatever it was, and they were taping like $1 bills to 10,000 cows or something like that, or $5 bills to how many cows.
Guest:It was hilarious, and then they held that up as a thing that you can't do that.
Guest:I thought, well, how is that...
Guest:Less legitimate than a painting or something on TV or a movie.
Guest:And I still in my head don't see how that's less legitimate than an episode of 30 Rock.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Well, it's probably more legitimate on some level.
Marc:The thing that makes it less legitimate to the powers that be is that they don't know how to run money through it.
Marc:It's like all I see this is us paying for something that we can't run money through.
Guest:Now, how do we at Colgate-Palmolive get behind this project where you're putting a $1 bill on the bovine cow?
Guest:Is there any way we can put the Colgate label on the cows as well?
Guest:Look, you buttfuckers.
Guest:How do I sell more crest?
Guest:You hear me?
Guest:You fucking dirty faggots.
Guest:Now, look.
Guest:God damn it.
Guest:All I want to do is sell the fucking crest.
Guest:Jesus.
Guest:I can't work with this.
Guest:Goddamn.
Guest:Look at Dirty Rock.
Guest:Sell crest every day with that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you want to put a yam in your cooch.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:I can't get behind me.
Guest:Goddamn it.
Guest:I got to talk to my congressman.
Guest:If I were selling yams, it'd be a different story.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:If I was called the Yam Man.
Guest:Then we'd have something to work with Miss Finley, but until then, no money for you.
Guest:You know what it was?
Guest:I think there was a lot of that performance art stuff that was happening in New York where I was living, we were living in the mid, late 80s.
Guest:A lot of that was the, a lot of the energy that was there somehow got through the late 80s, early 90s, got transmogrified into the alternative comedy scene.
Guest:to a lot of those people that came, they didn't come out of that performance art thing, but I think a lot of the people that showed up January 12th, I'm living in New York today, 1990.
Guest:Wait a minute, performance art thing's kinda dead.
Guest:What's that bullshit thing over there?
Guest:Because the bullshit performance art thing was good, which was legitimate in its own way.
Guest:Well, some of it was comedy.
Guest:Yeah, my stuff was mostly comedy because if someone got really serious with the performance stuff, it was hard.
Guest:It got a little heavy.
Guest:Some friends of mine did a 10-minute opera about Nikolai Tesla, and it was fantastic because they had a working Tesla coil in the room.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And they would do the opera every...
Guest:I think maybe it was a 15-minute opera they did every half an hour on the half an hour for 24 hours.
Guest:And you just walked in and you saw these guys singing and doing this opera with a working Tesla coil at some place on Ludlow Street.
Guest:It was fantastic, right below Stan.
Guest:Just great.
Marc:Yeah, and that stuff, if they can move from that like Bogosian did and Spaulding Gray did, they became legitimate theatrical forces.
Guest:Yeah, and Blue Man Group was around that time.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You know, Liguzama was doing stuff then at the same places we were all doing stuff.
Guest:right but you know but still like the the extreme version of it they couldn't get much traction yeah yeah there's no way to get a lot of people to like sticking yams in your stash yeah it's hard yeah yeah it really is to get a whole you know to get a whole but are they the real artists or are they just uh see that's the thing because sometimes i see that and i think it's horrible bullshit myself yeah that's right but then when i see somebody else calling it horrible bullshit i
Guest:gonna offend yeah fuck you she's doing what she wants yeah she's expressing herself who the fuck are you try sticking a try sticking a potato up your ass yeah yeah tough guy she's the astronaut you're just a fucking lackey she's the astronaut toby huss yeah thanks for coming thanks for having me pal
Marc:I know all you guys love your Eddie Pepitone, but no one loves Eddie as much as... Well, I don't want to say that.
Marc:I'm sure there's people that love him more than me.
Marc:But we all just wish Eddie would love Eddie a little more.
Marc:But right when I got the mic set up, I mean, it was early on.
Marc:Him and I were fucking around with the equipment.
Marc:We were testing things out.
Marc:We didn't get enough for a full episode.
Marc:But here's a little bit of me and Eddie Pepitone towards the beginning of the new mics.
Marc:Let's start with this.
Marc:In the last three days, what has sent you over the edge?
Marc:And how did you handle it?
Marc:Because I know it happens at least two or three times a day.
Guest:Well, okay.
Marc:I don't know if you want to get into it, but you came over here and you said, I'm excited to be out of the house.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Well, you know, relationships are difficult and intimacy.
Guest:You see, I love to be loved.
Guest:I love to be adored.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, this is why you're a nice guy.
Marc:See, you have a tricky personality because everyone says Eddie's a nice guy.
Marc:But what you don't realize is that Eddie's like a dog.
Marc:Like, you know, he'll just come right up to you if you give him some food of some kind.
Marc:And you think that, what a nice dog you have here.
Marc:But all the dog is thinking is like, I just love food.
Marc:I just love it.
Marc:I love food.
Marc:So...
Guest:I'm Year of the Dog with the Chinese New Year, and I've always related to dogs big time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So you were saying you have approval and... Well, just I wanted to get into about relationships.
Guest:I'm in a very intense relationship right now where... You've been with her a long time, right?
Guest:for over four years and uh um i'm just you know what always comes up is the boundary stuff like um you know when i'm trying to figure out how that works with someone like you boundaries is brought up and you say boundaries i don't need no stinking boundaries i gotta use that that's a funny bit stinking boundaries
Guest:Yeah, it is funny because I'm a guy who's never, never had boundaries.
Guest:I'm having a hard time holding together my personality around you.
Marc:I feel absorbed.
Marc:I feel like, you know, from the beginning of this conversation, I just became an extension of Eddie Peppertone that I was something Eddie was allowing to exist within him.
Guest:But anyway, yeah, I have been in an intense relationship, and it's a type of thing where I love the attention of the other.
Guest:But then I want some space as well.
Guest:And me and my girlfriend currently are together all the time.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So let me see if I can understand what space means in that equation.
Marc:Is that you like the attention as much as possible, but as soon as the onus is on you to pay the proper emotional attention to someone else becomes taxing and a little exhausting and you don't quite understand why it's required.
Guest:Well, I just don't understand why people don't get their shit together.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Right.
Marc:Like, you know, get their basic needs met somewhere else.
Marc:Come on.
Marc:Don't you have another?
Guest:Come on, honey.
Guest:Honey, look, you have to get stuff together.
Guest:I have a lot, a lot of needs, a lot of needs.
Guest:And how are they going to get met if we have to deal with your stuff?
Guest:I mean, seriously, how is that going to happen?
Guest:this is this is my idea of the household let's let's get me together and then i'll bring in everything the couple needs as far from the outside world sure and you know whatever we'll hook you up to a machine whatever it takes but for me let's get me let's concentrate on on me yeah no i i understand and this is what destroyed my marriage so let me let me try to help you out
Marc:As a guy who's been through this kind of thing.
Guest:What happens is, and it's the same problem that you have with working with people with AIDS in prisons, which you should be doing, by the way.
Guest:By the way, I wonder, the only reason I think of doing work in prison with people with AIDS is that, would it make me feel much better?
Guest:Well, here's the thing, is that you're a taker, Eddie.
Guest:And...
Guest:Eddie, drive to Eagle Rock and be told you're a taker.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:Get on the 134 and then the 2 and then fucking York Boulevard where no one moves.
Guest:And then I'll tell you that you're a fucking taker.
Go ahead.
Okay.
Guest:The reason I'm talking to you like this is because I am the same way and I'm trying to help.
Guest:I'm not judging you.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Marc:What I'm saying is that we're charming.
Marc:We're entertaining.
Marc:Right.
Marc:We can make people laugh.
Marc:We can provide the best we can provide.
Marc:But what happens is when it comes to actually being giving in an emotional way, it's intimidating.
Marc:It's scary because in that moment, there's something in our heads that's going, what happens to me during this?
Marc:So if you're trying to do something nice and there's something in your head going, I don't know where I go when this happens.
Guest:Well, I just feel like I have a scorecard in my head sometimes.
Guest:Like if I am giving too much.
Guest:in my estimation then i've got to pull back because i don't want to give too much because same reason because then they'll get spoiled or or perhaps it sounds like i don't know i just feel like uh i don't know i think it all you like everything i think it all comes back to my dad for me my primary relationship in my life
Guest:was my father.
Guest:And I remember when I first got into stand-up comedy, I was reading books about stand-up comedy, and some German dude, I forget who it was, but I think he was German, wrote one of these papers on stand-up comedians, and he said that stand-up comedians have to slay their father.
Guest:And I really feel like that has been my whole life, slaying my dad.
Guest:Maybe he meant it in a literal way.
Yeah.
Guest:If he did, then if it wasn't for DNA testing, I would have done it a while ago.
Guest:That sounds like a hell of a paper on stand-up comedy.
Guest:Yeah, I wish I could find it again.
Marc:Was that a stand-up comedy study done in Auschwitz?
Marc:A German study on stand-up comedy that says that the comedian has this way.
Marc:The best thing I ever heard.
Marc:Did you ever hear that?
Guest:No.
Marc:About stand-up comics that they have to slay their father?
Marc:No, but I think I've always thought that every father-son relationship is a battle to the death on some level.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:Yeah, that your father pretends to like what you do, but he's really just competing with you.
Marc:And he's saying, like, good job.
Marc:You came in second.
Marc:And in their head, they're going, yeah, I'm going to get you.
Marc:I'm going to win.
Marc:I'm going to win eventually.
Marc:You think, I could have done that.
Marc:But that's not all father-son relationship, so we can't generalize.
Marc:But the best thing I heard about stand-up comedy was said to me by Harry Shearer.
Guest:Oh, is that right?
Marc:Yeah, I was interviewing him.
Guest:What do you say?
Guest:I love Shira.
Marc:And I share this a lot because with people who ask... He's not a stand-up, though.
Marc:No, but he's a comedian.
Guest:Oh, big time.
Marc:He said that the reason people do comedy is to try to control why people laugh at them.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:That is too fucking funny.
Marc:By now, all of you know the wonderful Dr. Steve, a great friend of mine and sort of a guide of sorts.
Marc:Well, not too long ago when bullying was big in the news, I had this grand plan of having Joe Rogan on and burying the hatchet and then having Dr. Steve on about bullying, but Rogan has not responded to any of my requests, which is fine, but I did talk to Dr. Steve about bullying, so let's listen to a little of that.
Marc:No reason to lose some
Marc:Some good, heartfelt information that can change the way people are just because Joe Rogan didn't want to come on my show.
Marc:Dr. Steve is here, and he is thoroughly doctored.
Marc:You're doctored to your core now, right?
Guest:Doctored, licensed, running my private practice, running a treatment center.
Marc:You don't have to answer to nobody.
Marc:No, just me.
Marc:Now, bullying is all over the news.
Marc:It's been an issue with me on both sides.
Marc:Bullying, because it's become so popular, and I always assume this, because you are defined by, I mean, you're defined by things that happen in your adolescence.
Marc:I mean, it's not just this two to three-year-old.
Marc:I mean, that may define you emotionally in some ways, but what happens to you when you are cognizant
Marc:also defines your behavior am i not right absolutely so that when you get beat up or bullied or or made fun of your entire life you are going to be fueled with a type of spite that you can taste and either you're going to turn that on yourself or you're going to turn that on others or else maybe you'll just you know mold it into something you know productive you know like i assume a lot of uh engineers and computer science people do
Guest:Bullying is a lot like spousal abuse, domestic violence or anything that involves that cycle of violence where those perpetrated upon become the perpetrators.
Guest:And it gets into this cycle where people are sort of taking what they wouldn't ordinarily take.
Guest:because they're afraid of the repercussions of either telling on someone, right?
Guest:The whole tattletale thing when you're a kid or snitching.
Guest:The mob runs on this.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, a lot more than just the mob, right?
Guest:I mean, all kinds of sort of organized gangs, organized crime.
Guest:Relationships, marriages.
Guest:Many marriages, yeah.
Guest:My uncle Thule, who was a therapist, actually was very pointed in saying that many of the couples that he saw ran on this cycle of violence, whether or not they were having the actual violence.
Guest:And what you have with bullying is that those that are bullied often are not given any kind of solutions for it that are meaningful.
Guest:I mean, we've come a long way since when I was a kid, Bobby Bernhardt was trying to keep the crap out of me all the time and
Guest:The one thing I had going for me was that I was very fast.
Guest:So I often didn't get the crap kicked out of me.
Guest:But when I did get beat up, bullied, emotionally pushed around, physically pushed around, I was told, ignore them and they'll go away.
Guest:That was very, very useful.
Marc:But that's so isolating.
Marc:I mean, that's basically say, you know, like, you know, cower and avoid them.
Marc:And then that only makes it worse.
Guest:It does make it worse.
Guest:And that is one of the greatest desires of the bullier is to isolate the person.
Guest:That's like if it's not a conscious tactic, it's an unconscious tactic.
Guest:If I bully you hard enough, you will be alone.
Guest:I will separate you from the herd.
Guest:and I can then do what I want and I can have power.
Guest:All right.
Marc:Well, I guess let's try to get back down to the crux of it.
Marc:In my life, I have been bullied, but I feel like I've also been a bully in that I think that because of my emotional insecurity, obviously I've bullied my ex-wife.
Marc:I think I've bullied my current girlfriend.
Marc:And I'm trying to assess if it all comes from the same place.
Marc:is that a lot of my bullying, or sometimes I'm preemptively defensive, which means that I'll say something hurtful or off-putting before anything even happens.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I guess that can be considered bullying.
Marc:I'd call that...
Marc:I put that in the same category, yeah.
Marc:All right, so now I have to deal with the fact that I emotionally am a bully to some degree, but I think people who know me know that I've got a pretty big heart and that know that really, and I can tell you honestly just from my relationships and when I've done that, it's all out of sadness.
Marc:it's all out of fear and it's all out of a tremendous you know insecurity that i'm being either you know condescended to or mocked or or or thought less of or it's basically comes from that like you know i feel less than thing or that like you know i need to have the upper hand now is that an across the board definition yeah you and i have talked before about anger management right and this is this is like a the whole bullying issue is an anger management dilemma
Guest:Bullying is anger that isn't managed.
Guest:And what is anger?
Guest:Anger is not necessarily just a cover for, but it is a different manifestation of sadness, of fear, of low self-esteem.
Guest:And anyone and everyone is eligible for it.
Guest:In the 12-step, in the AA literature, there's a phrase about there's a bit of good and bad in the best of us and the best of us.
Guest:bit of good in the worst of us, whatever.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And, you know, work that I've done, too, around this bullying thing.
Guest:I've been doing, actually, long before I was a therapist, I've been an educator working around this bullying issue under different guises, you know, about when I was in high school.
Marc:You work with kids.
Marc:I mean, what was that thing?
Marc:You used to go to high school
Guest:Yeah, well, when I was a high school teacher in Brooklyn, I was teaching in Crown Heights at the time that Crown Heights riots happened.
Guest:And after that happened, I got trained by a number of different nonprofits in how to help young people to kind of figure this stuff out and to have tools.
Guest:And I actually ended up helping to write new curriculum for violence prevention, anger management, conflict resolution, and diversity appreciation for the city of New York, some of which is still...
Guest:being used.
Guest:And in looking at it from that perspective, like for instance, one of the activities that one of the nonprofits that I work with uses, they have this activity that's called victim victimizer.
Guest:And it's not looking to see if you are a victim or if you've been a victimizer.
Guest:It's saying that if you look back into your past, you can find instances of when you've been both parties, like you're talking about.
Marc:But some of these things are culturally ingrained.
Marc:They're familial in that for generations, especially when it comes to racism or homophobia or some of that type of bullying.
Marc:Also, the mindset of the bully, the sort of petty kind of small-mindedness that goes into bullying, I think, is generational as well.
Marc:That to break these cycles that you're talking about, either within a group or culturally, I mean, you really have to...
Marc:People have to open up and experience that vulnerability that is necessary to move through that whatever that whatever craw is stuck in their heart to be more inclusive or embracing or empathetic or compassionate.
Marc:So how do you begin to do that?
Marc:I mean, like, you know, the example that obviously we're launching off of is the kid who killed himself because.
Marc:Someone put it on the Internet.
Marc:Two kids that he went to school with put it on the Internet.
Marc:You know, he felt that he needed to, you know, to closet himself.
Marc:And these people, you know, pushed him out of the closet and then mocked him.
Marc:But, you know, if we lived in a culture that was embracing where people would feel comfortable enough to live the way they want to live and be at least okay with that, then one side of that equation would not have happened.
Guest:We could do more than a full hour on the whole closeting kind of issue.
Guest:But to look at it in a more general way, at this point, with the complete and utter ability of anyone on this planet, pretty much, being able to do whatever they want to do to push someone around or to- Technologically, you're speaking.
Marc:Technologically, yeah.
Marc:I could probably find something today.
Marc:I deal with it all the time.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Just people being dicks with their just names on a screen being a dick to me like I'm not a person.
Marc:I tend to like sometimes I reach out and I say, look, let's go over this.
Marc:I'm not necessarily going to try to change your opinion of me, but I think this was hurtful and ridiculous.
Marc:And sometimes they're like, oh, shit, I didn't think that you would, you know.
Guest:And that's the thing.
Guest:We've been so, I mean...
Guest:We often talk about being kind of desensitized to violence.
Guest:I think we're completely desensitized to communication at its most basic level.
Guest:If I'm typing on a computer and I'm typing something that I theoretically know is hurtful and even threatening, etc.,
Guest:but there's no one there to really receive it, I can just hit send and boom, off it goes.
Marc:But a lot of times in these situations, and I think that's always been, you're hiding behind the cloak of maybe a group identity, a uniform, a disposition, a cultural identity, right?
Marc:I mean, that's always been the case.
Marc:And there's strength in numbers, even if it's evil strength.
Marc:So that makes it easy to bully.
Marc:But here, you're an army of one with a screen name that's just shooting out bile at people.
Marc:But what I found more so than not, which is interesting about the one-on-one internet bullying, is that a lot of times if you address them, they're like, oh, shit.
Marc:right there's a dude he answered me i got his attention it's childish they want they want to be validated they want to be told to shut the up they want to be said that this is wrong or engage with you and then it's almost like it's okay on some level like they change your tone but then the tragedy is that if if it's not you someone at your level that can sort of defend himself it's sad that i have that much time to deal with this
Guest:But if it's, you know, when you talk about young people, you just talk about people who are more vulnerable and they're kind of getting this and they don't have anyone around them because they too are sort of like living a lot in the world of the internet.
Guest:That's where the tragedies happen.
Guest:That's where you see people becoming more and more isolated.
Marc:Because at the click of a button...
Marc:They can take what would be a single act of me saying, you're a fag, Steve.
Marc:They can take one single statement like that on the internet can immediately be dispersed to anywhere from 10 to 100,000 people, depending on how...
Marc:Connected you are in whatever your network is that that at the drop of a fucking just like one push of a button.
Marc:All of a sudden you have this feeling that like, my God, everyone I know knows this thing.
Marc:Everyone I know is is is, you know, part of this.
Guest:And you were talking about being a young person.
Guest:I mean, think about that for a teenager.
Guest:Forget about like identity theft.
Guest:Forget about credit cards.
Guest:Just think about that first.
Marc:I couldn't handle it when I'd walk by the jocks when I was in high school and they'd be there with the cheerleaders and then they'd all turn to me and like, if I didn't try to make them laugh and they were just laughing.
Marc:I mean, it breaks your fucking heart and you walk away feeling like this, you know, this mutant, this, this, this crying inside freak, like, uh, like, uh, the hunchback.
Marc:Mm hmm.
Marc:Yeah, I know that feeling.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But then what happens if you're not careful is that if enough of that happens to you, then you will become that.
Guest:And multiply it by a million with this sort of anonymous aspect to it, you know, to where you do have the cover of night, you know, you have the cover to do it.
Guest:And then there often are no consequences for the bullier.
Guest:In that way.
Marc:And they can fuck people up forever.
Marc:Because I think that enough hurt that happens, you reach a point and you cross a line like the guy in Breaking Bad.
Marc:Okay, so let's talk solutions.
Marc:Now, obviously, a broader cultural solution is difficult other than engaging in a dialogue in a way that is public enough for people to really be thoughtful about it, which is rare.
Mm-hmm.
Marc:But in terms of like intimate solutions, obviously you can counsel somebody who's got a bullying issue and you can counsel someone who's been bullied and have them make different choices for themselves or process that information.
Marc:But I mean, in the broader sense, if we're talking about technology and the violence, the emotional violence that can take place anonymously, I mean, how do we really solve problems around that?
Guest:Well, I think the only way or one of the major ways, and a lot of times this sounds like kind of a stock answer, like here during election time, people say the word education, but that really actually is.
Guest:When I think about it, having been an educator before I was a therapist,
Guest:In therapy, one-on-one or even in a group, there's a lot that I can do to go deep with people and to help them deal with the ramifications of being bullied, to help them to deal with their anger in new ways and to deal with the fact that they're a bully.
Guest:But like some of the educational programs that I've done and that I've worked with, been a part of, when I see school systems or other groups taking on the mantle of
Guest:trying to give kids other ways of communicating, other ways of expressing themselves, other ways of resolving conflicts.
Guest:A lot of people write it off as political correctness or this or that or the other thing.
Guest:And in fact, it's a lot deeper than that.
Guest:And if you're going to have a situation where we're creating through this collateral damage of the wonders of cyberspace,
Guest:that we're creating a small army of people who believe that they can mess with people without there really being consequences.
Guest:I can't think of a solution for that other than getting it from the foundation, educating kids from a young age.
Marc:And the real thing that I think that is the biggest problem
Marc:Tragedy of this type of communication is just that they're not they're not going like looking at someone face to face and having to deal with the emotional resonance of what's being said, whether for better or for worse, and having to engage in that orgone energy that comes back and forth between people when when emotions are being shared of any kind without having really any.
Marc:sense of what that is which i think is happening a lot that it's a lot easier to text it's a lot easier to email it's you know even leaving a message with voice that can show emotion at least when you leave a voice message and you're like i'm scared that people can say they can say oh fuck i'm not calling him back i'm going to text him i i mean that just the nature of that interpersonal communication is is sort of disappearing for most practical purposes so in other words
Marc:It's going to be a long slog.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And perhaps impossible that we might be at the precipice of shifting how the human being interacts completely.
Marc:And everyone's just going to have to become callous or completely detached from what we grew to know as interpersonal relationships and emotions.
Guest:Well, especially when I think of the fact that I've been doing this kind of work before the technology took hold in this way, and I saw what a long slog it was then, and I could see the difference.
Guest:For instance, I lived in New York, and so I did a lot of this stuff after the Crown Heights riots, and a lot was done.
Guest:Over the next 10 years, there were all these programs and all this really good stuff that happened that got people talking about real issues and making some real...
Guest:steps forward.
Guest:And then I moved out here to LA and I started doing some work at the Museum of Tolerance and doing similar kind of workshops, et cetera.
Guest:And I was working with a lot of the LAUSD teachers and I was like, what happened?
Guest:What was put in place after the LA riots, which were completely five times as explosive as Crown Heights?
Guest:And they were like, nothing.
Guest:Like when I would sort of do workshops that were around issues that in New York they would have said, oh, we did this five years ago.
Guest:They were like, oh, this is new information.
Guest:So it's really important that people really take this seriously because, you know, we were talking earlier about the fact that what's happening is people are becoming more isolated in general, right?
Guest:And bullying isolates people to the point where they are afraid, you know, to go out their door, to go to school, to do what they need to do.
Guest:So if we don't do something about that, then the sort of a little bit of a doomsday-ish kind of scenario that you're painting isn't that far off the mark.
Guest:I mean, I don't want to go all the way there right now, but I do want to say that I can feel it.
Guest:I work with a lot of young people in my practice, and I'm almost kind of shocked.
Guest:at the level of isolation and the level of fear and the channels through which it comes into their lives, which is from anonymous sources and through being bullied in ways that they're actually, it's very hard without allies, without adults and other young people allies to be able to combat.
Marc:Oh, man.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, fuck bullies.
Marc:Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Marc:Yeah, and they're going to be the ruin.
Marc:I find apologizing works.
Marc:As a bully, you mean?
Marc:Well, as a bully.
Marc:That if you don't repeat the behavior over and over again and you genuinely take responsibility and connect your apology to your emotions and understand why and how you've hurt somebody, that that can buy you a little space in your heart.
Marc:I agree with that.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So I guess this is a reach out outreach to all bullies to, you know, do your part in this.
Marc:Stop it and own it and make it right, you fucks.
Guest:I probably or possibly maybe could put it better myself, but I'm not quite sure, so I'm just going to leave it.
Guest:Dr. Steve Danziger, thank you.
Guest:You're welcome.
Marc:Jim Gaffigan has been on the show before, and you've got to love Jim Gaffigan.
Marc:You've got to love his wife as well.
Marc:who is, I think, certainly the better half of Jim Gaffigan.
Marc:But I did run into him backstage at the Eugene Merman Comedy Festival in Brooklyn, and we hung out a bit, and so I figured I'd throw a little bit of Jim Gaffigan on, because fuck, who doesn't love Jim Gaffigan?
Marc:I perform for these audiences.
Marc:And you would think that someone like me, I alienate everybody.
Marc:But I don't know if they're alternative crowds or if they're just crowds that feel a little more superior to other people because of their community.
Marc:But it's not the same as performing for a theater of people in, say, the Midwest.
Guest:Stand-up is the best aspect of the entertainment industry because it's built on substance.
Guest:There's style and substance.
Guest:It's not like you can get lucky and get on Dexter, and you automatically have the credentials of cool.
Guest:Stand-up, in any given room, whether it's hipsters or the guys that develop all the iPhone apps, if you go on in front of them,
Guest:You've got to prove your stuff.
Guest:And I think that, you know, that's where stand-up is like an equalizer, where it's like, you know, if you are, you know, someone who doesn't communicate with them, stand-up's very much a conversation.
Guest:It's like, luckily, you know, we live in New York.
Guest:And so it's like, you know, in the end, it is...
Guest:easy as like in front of an audience that is you know um more americana probably not right but there's a you know there's a true serum to alternative rooms which is why you know you know monday through thursday i'm mostly at alternative rooms right because
Guest:Funny is funny and that's where you're going to... Funny is funny and also, you know, it's like, you know, there's something about, you know, some guy who's like working for some graphic designer...
Guest:That they're creative peers, really.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Marc:I agree.
Marc:I just have problems with that.
Marc:Just like anything else, there are groups of people that make decisions based on groupthink.
Guest:Oh, are you kidding?
Guest:I am so white bread looking.
Guest:I've done stand-up for 20 years.
Guest:I go on stage.
Guest:It's probably why Conan is so self-deprecating.
Guest:It's because there's a certain appearance thing.
Guest:Look, you look cool.
Guest:I go on stage.
Guest:I look like John Tesh.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Some of it is I'm crazy, but, you know, that's a little crazy because everybody knows you and you're a fucking master craftsman of the joke.
Marc:Two questions.
Marc:Have you been on Dexter and did you do a show for people that design apps?
Marc:No.
Marc:Oh, there's interesting things to pull up.
Guest:No, but performing for a group of people that design, you know, I would say the wire, but, you know, it's like, you know.
Guest:Did you do The Wire?
Guest:No, my God.
Guest:But that was a masterpiece.
Guest:Wasn't it?
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:You got to start at the beginning.
Guest:No, I did.
Guest:I did.
Marc:I couldn't stop.
Marc:I mean, I was literally like on drugs.
Marc:I would watch four episodes back to back.
Guest:That, you know, it's... I feel like I told you to watch The Wire.
Guest:At least you don't have three kids.
Guest:Jeannie and I, you know, we sit there and... So you make them watch The Wire.
Marc:That's what parents do.
Marc:You say, now we learn.
Guest:Now we learn.
Guest:It's okay.
Guest:It's real.
Guest:It's grit.
Guest:It's genius.
Guest:I haven't talked to you in a long time.
Guest:What have you been doing?
Guest:You know, I mean, Jeannie and I were writing this new hour.
Guest:Wait, are we done with the kids?
Guest:I mean, are we having more?
Guest:Are we done?
Guest:Three?
Guest:You know, we are open.
Guest:I'm a machine, man.
Guest:You're a machine.
Guest:I'm a machine.
Guest:She's one of nine.
Guest:I'm one of six.
Guest:But also, it's... Oh, my God.
Guest:I mean, it doesn't, you know... We got nothing.
Marc:i mean people look at us like we're crazy but it's like i mean i would love to have as many kids as we can you know my brother's the same way he's got three of his own and now his wife has four wow there's seven yeah it's like jewish daycare over there every day
Guest:oh I love it I love it and that's saying I'm a lazy guy I'm also someone that needs down time but I would give up all my laziness and give up all my down time to hang out with my kids so you guys are writing a movie is that what you're saying
Guest:No, we're writing a new hour.
Guest:We're trying to do something evolving.
Marc:What number hour would this be for you if you were thinking in those terms?
Marc:I talked to Louis the other day.
Marc:If you're doing full tours every year, you've really got to scrap it, right?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I'm not, you know, I don't have that kind of absolutist kind of British view like, welcome back to Edinburgh, you can't say the word that you've used before.
Guest:But, and you know, we write very observationally, so it's...
Guest:But this is hour four or five, you know, and, you know, we write a lot about food.
Guest:So it's like, you know, we've kind of gone through the food, but... And we also don't want... Yeah, we don't want to, you know, we don't want it to be kind of like, isn't it adorable when a two-year-old does this?
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:So it's, you know, I've always kind of described that, like, if you mention in discussion the topics that Jeannie and I write, it sounds like horrible stand-up.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:It's like, really?
Guest:They're doing McDonald's jokes?
Guest:You know, it's like, wow, look at that.
Guest:But some of it is, you know.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, but see, I think that what I've grown to realize as I get more humility and pummeled by life is that...
Marc:the that you represent a singular style i mean you you are now you know jim gaffigan the guy who who people after a certain point it's my belief that one builds a clown and you know the clown you've built is is stable and your style is is known and the people that love you go to hear your style they're not sitting there making notes you know as to whether or not you know i can't accept that joke and maybe you should lose that punchline i mean it's an experience
Marc:So, you know, your topics are your topics.
Marc:And I don't think speaking in general ways or speaking about topics that have been spoken about represents anything negative or anything hackneyed.
Marc:I mean, your point of view is your point of view.
Marc:But I think because you're you,
Marc:You assume this thing.
Marc:I've seen this happen at UCB.
Marc:I've seen it happen here that you could put, like, you know, like you did very well.
Marc:And if Caparulo went up or if Dove Davidoff went up, if any of the people, if any of the hundreds of comics that don't have their snap of approval went up, they would kill because they know how to do comedy.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:No, yeah.
Guest:That's the equalizer of... I mean, your style is very kind of more suited to an alternative scene.
Marc:I'm not sure where it's suited to.
Marc:I'm a very marginal act.
Marc:And I certainly couldn't draw that many people.
Marc:It's just the way it is.
Marc:If I have any criticism myself, is that I did not appreciate the idea of honing an act, of being consistent...
Marc:of not flying by the seat of my pants as much.
Marc:You know, I certainly appreciate people who have the discipline to maintain a style and do the work, which I do, but my process does not yield, you know, tremendous floods of people.
Guest:Yeah, I think you're not giving yourself enough credit.
Guest:I really don't think you are.
Marc:Well, I seem to inspire people.
Marc:Like, I seem to represent some sort of, like, I think comics see me and go, like, I really like to be real like Marin, but then I say, do yourself a favor, put an act together.
Guest:Well, you know, it's like, I think it's also kind of, you know, stand-up is such a strange journey, and it's so individual, and I'm romanticizing it here, but it's like, there's something about it that is...
Guest:You know, kind of so individual.
Guest:It's kind of like going through therapy.
Guest:It's like some people go in and they're like, you know what, I'm going to spill all my guts.
Guest:Some people go in there and they're like, you know what, I'm getting angry at a cab driver.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where it's like you or I might be going and go, you know, I was a total just jerk yesterday.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I don't know what motivated that.
Guest:well that's what i do on stage yeah yeah and that's you know and some of it is and then i'll try to figure out what motivated it for 20 minutes yeah yeah every now and then like new york magazine will do an article on stand-up or you know entertainment weekly or whatever these guys you know do and it's like as a comedian you obviously want to be in it but there's a certain thing it's like
Guest:Only comedians can really talk about comedy and talk about what's going on.
Guest:And that's why I want to present you with this award.
Guest:No, but you know what I mean?
Guest:There is something about... Finally!
Marc:Jim Gaffigan's giving me the Jim Gaffigan Award.
Guest:The Jim Gaffigan Award.
Guest:Speaking about comedy.
Guest:No, but there is something about, you know...
Guest:There are certain things where you're like, all right, that kind of is the inside shit.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:And I actually said shit.
Marc:No, but you know what I mean?
Marc:Jim Gaffigan said shit.
Marc:You heard it here first.
Marc:Well, I'm very impressed that you've kept your shit together so long.
Marc:Barely.
Guest:Jim Gaffigan, folks.
Guest:Thanks.
Marc:Okay, that's our show.
Marc:And again, Happy New Year, you guys.
Marc:And we didn't do this, and we should do this.
Marc:Happy New Year.
Marc:Wait.
Marc:Wait for it.
Marc:Pow!
Marc:Happy New Year.
Marc:I shit my pants.
Marc:JustCoffee.coop.
Marc:Available at WTFPod.com.
Marc:Go there now.
Marc:Get on the mailing list.
Marc:Kick in a few shekels.
Marc:Buy some merchandise.
Marc:I think my book is available again.
Marc:You should read that.
Marc:Why not?
Marc:I just recently read it.
Marc:Oh, there's my phone.
Marc:That's got to change, too.
Marc:Oh, there it is again.
Marc:New Year's resolution.
Marc:Shut the fucking phone up, asshole.
Marc:How would that be?
Marc:Is that such a big deal?
Marc:Really, a lot of messages.
Marc:All right, aren't you a professional?
Marc:For God's sakes.
Marc:PunchlineMagazine.com.
Marc:Check that out.
Marc:StandUpRecords.com.
Marc:All friends of the show.
Marc:But you are all my friends.
Marc:Now, if only I could be a friend to me.
Marc:Huh?
Marc:Am I getting sappy here before the new year?
Marc:God damn it, I hope things can change.
Marc:I really do.
Marc:I want to have the courage to become a better person.
Marc:Blah, blah, blah, blah.
Marc:Happy New Year.
Thank you.