Episode 1358 - Jerrod Carmichael
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies it's the what the fuckpocalypse welcome welcome to it how's everyone doing how are you welcome to the new people i have to say that right out of the gate here i i was talking to brendan mcdonald
Marc:The genius who runs the knobs here at WTF.
Marc:The genius who does the tidying up of the mess that I am and the conversations I have.
Marc:The genius that the entire...
Marc:sort of functional side of this racket, Brendan McDonald, has informed me that our numbers look good.
Marc:The numbers look good.
Marc:And I'm not, you know, I don't Google myself.
Marc:I don't search me.
Marc:I don't check algorithms or numbers related to me.
Marc:And occasionally, Brendan will say the numbers look good and not only good, but great.
Marc:And I think that has something to do with the fact that we're with this with a cast now, this new platform that has a international footprint.
Marc:And I'm getting emails from Belfast and the UK and from Australia.
Marc:It just it feels like there's an influx of the international crowd.
Marc:And these people are coming in to, you know, 800 episodes that they can just listen.
Marc:They're right there.
Marc:You don't have to join up for anything.
Marc:They're just if you're new to it and have fun.
Marc:There's your 800 episodes right there.
Marc:No paywall for those 800.
Marc:You're welcome and welcome.
Marc:Seriously, though, thanks for coming on board.
Marc:I appreciate it anyway.
Marc:Before I get going here, before I start rambling too much, we've been doing bonus content that we call Ask Mark Anything on WTF Plus, and I'll be doing one again next week.
Marc:This time, if you want to send me a question, all you have to do is click on the link in the show description.
Marc:On whatever app you're using right now, just go to the episode notes and you'll see a link for Ask Mark Anything.
Marc:Send me a question and I may answer it on next week's bonus content.
Marc:Dig it.
Marc:And if you're not subscribed to The Full Marin on WTF+, there's a link for that in the show notes as well.
Marc:Or you can go to WTFPod.com and click on WTF+.
Marc:Today on the show, I talked to Gerard Carmichael.
Marc:Now, look, I talked to this guy back in 2015.
Marc:If people want to go listen to that chat, you can.
Marc:It's episode 631, and it's available for free in all podcast apps.
Marc:No ads if you listen on WTF+.
Marc:But back then, he had just come off a few movies.
Marc:He had his own show on NBC, The Carmichael Show.
Marc:He had had some juice as a stand-up.
Marc:But since then, as many of you probably know, he's been developing a lot of projects, including the first film he directed.
Marc:It's called On the Count of Three, and it's now streaming on Hulu.
Marc:He also hosted SNL and released a new stand-up special directed by Bo Burnham called Rathaniel.
Marc:And he's got Emmy nominations for both of those things.
Marc:He also came out as gay.
Marc:And that was sort of the big... No spoilers.
Marc:No spoilers, but that's sort of the big thing about Rathaniel and the big thing about Gerard at this point in time.
Marc:Here's an update on Charlie Beans.
Marc:Charlie Beans Roscoe.
Marc:Are we going to put him on mic?
Marc:Or no, he's sleeping?
He can wake up.
Marc:Do we wake him up?
Marc:Charlie Beans Roscoe is, what is he, five weeks now?
Marc:This is a cat.
Marc:There's part of me that doesn't want me to take him.
Marc:Hi, Charlie Beans.
Marc:Hey, Charlie Beans Roscoe.
Marc:Hi.
Guest:Do you want to talk?
Guest:Charlie Beans.
Guest:No?
Guest:He's not going to talk.
Guest:He's just going to sit here and look cute.
Guest:I thought you were going to talk.
Guest:Charlie Beans.
Guest:No, he just looks like he woke up from a nap.
Guest:Come on, Charlie Beans.
Guest:Talk to the people.
Marc:I don't think he's going to do it.
Marc:Anyway, this cat is looking great.
Marc:Take him away, kid.
Marc:Take Charlie Beans away.
Marc:He didn't do it.
Marc:He blew it.
Marc:He choked.
Marc:We got to get him stage ready.
Marc:His mother is coming around still, but not as frequently.
Marc:I don't know where the other five kittens are.
Marc:Sadly, it's not my job.
Marc:And I'll keep you abreast of that situation.
Marc:But I believe this cat's going to be mine, though I'm nervous.
Marc:Not unlike...
Marc:Not unlike a parent that, you know, is it time for another kitten in the house?
Marc:Is it time?
Marc:Am I going to have to move soon?
Marc:Because I don't know if you know this, but they're going to start rationing water here soon in California.
Marc:Apparently, we've got to cut back something like 15% to 25% water usage.
Marc:And then in September, there's a good chunk of Los Angeles.
Marc:We just cannot...
Marc:use now he's talking now we just can't use water for like two weeks um because they got to repair something that's what they're saying i hope that's the truth i don't know i really don't know all i know is that is he going to talk come here charlie beans hey hey charlie beans charlie beans
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:Is it you just talk when you're uncomfortable?
Marc:Is that it?
Marc:When I hold you, when you're not in your blankie?
Marc:Come on, Charlie Beans.
Marc:What do you got?
Marc:What do you got?
Marc:You got one?
Marc:One squeak?
Marc:What do I got to do, squeeze you?
Marc:Come on.
Marc:What do I got to squeeze you?
Marc:Charlie Beans.
Marc:No, I guess not.
Marc:So what was I talking about?
Marc:Oh, like I read an article about the possibility of a mega flood in Los Angeles, like a possibility of a mega flood in Southern California.
Marc:And you would think in normal times that would be a terrifying prospect.
Marc:But in the times we're in right now, I was like, bring it.
Marc:Let's ride it out.
Marc:Bring the mega flood.
Marc:Ow, ow, ow, ow.
Marc:Hey, beans.
Marc:What's up, Charlie?
Marc:What's up?
Marc:What?
Marc:Now you're going to talk?
Marc:Okay, good enough.
Marc:You did it.
Marc:Congratulations.
Marc:Ladies and gentlemen, Charlie Beans Roscoe, the miracle cat.
Marc:But I saw this article and I was like, I'm ready for the flood.
Marc:Now, that's apocalyptic, that sentence, classically apocalyptic.
Marc:But for me, it's more about, can we just get things kind of moisturized here, even if it's radical moisturization?
Marc:There is no regular weather anymore.
Marc:Either water just dumps out of the sky like it's being just poured on us out of God's bucket, or we're just baking.
Marc:We're just slowly baking.
Marc:And some of my jokes are coming true.
Marc:Not great.
Marc:They were not supposed to be true.
Marc:First of all, fascism was supposed to be a threat, not the future.
Marc:And also, you know, it's going to I have a joke that as a reference, the degrees, the temperature is 130 degrees Fahrenheit, which seems like it's going to happen pretty soon.
Marc:I'm in Lincoln, Nebraska tonight at wherever the hell it is.
Marc:Go find it.
Marc:The Rococo Theater tonight.
Marc:I think I've gotten everybody that could possibly want to see me in Lincoln, Nebraska, in Lincoln, Nebraska, hip to me being there.
Marc:I don't know if my old drunky hipster friend who's gone on to become a slightly anti-Semitic farmer outside of Lincoln will be there.
Marc:I don't even know if he's still alive.
Marc:Does anybody have eyes on Ross?
Marc:Who's got eyes on Ross Broccoli?
Marc:Anybody?
Marc:Anyone got eyes on Ross Broccoli?
Marc:So look, folks.
Marc:Here's this.
Marc:The pre-sale for my new tour dates is still going on until 10 p.m.
Marc:tonight.
Marc:Then all general admission tickets will be on sale tomorrow.
Marc:Here's where I'll be.
Marc:You ready?
Marc:Oklahoma City at the Tower Theater Wednesday, November 2nd.
Marc:Dallas, Texas at the Majestic Theater Thursday, November 3rd.
Marc:San Antonio at the Tobin Center for the Performing Arts Friday, November 4th.
Marc:And Houston at the Cullen Theater at the Wortham Center Saturday, November 5th.
Marc:Then Eugene, Oregon at the Holt Center for the Performing Arts Friday, November 18th.
Marc:And Bend, Oregon at Tower Theater Saturday, November 19th.
Marc:And in December, I'm in Asheville, North Carolina at the Orange Peel Friday, December 2nd.
Marc:And Nashville, Tennessee at the James K. Polk Theater Saturday.
Marc:saturday december 3rd the pre-sale password until 10 p.m tonight is time all caps t-i-m-e all general admission tickets on sale tomorrow at 10 a.m go to wtfpod.com slash tour for links and information holy shit charlie beans charlie beans roscoe
Marc:So, look, Gerard's movie, Gerard Carmichael, who you're going to hear from shortly here, his movie is called On the Count of Three, which he directed and stars in, is now streaming on Hulu.
Marc:He's nominated for two Emmy Awards, Outstanding Guest Actor in a Comedy Series for hosting SNL, and Outstanding Writing for a Variety Special for Rathaniel.
Marc:This is me talking once again to Gerard Carmichael.
you
Guest:Have you ever been to, like, Nice Guy or any of the, like, the hip whatever club?
Guest:No hip anything for me.
Guest:If you've ever done that, like, they're made for people to see who's there.
Guest:Oh, right, okay, okay.
Guest:And not, like, for the individual dining experience or whatever.
Marc:Have you been to that place, Crossroads, the vegan place?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, I've been there, yeah.
Marc:That feels like that, kind of.
Guest:Yeah, it's a little bright and sceny.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:The lighting's for selfies.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But do you find that when you go to those places, it's mostly spectators?
Guest:It's a lot of spectators.
Guest:This, though, the food was worth it.
Guest:It was almost worth, like, it was some obnoxious guy came and tried to sit in the booth.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, just weird, wild, obnoxious L.A.
Guest:crowd.
Guest:There's more of that now.
Marc:There's a lack of personal boundary thing happening.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, people are so excited to be around people, I guess.
Guest:I don't think that's it.
Guest:Thrilled out the house and thrilled.
Marc:I don't think so.
Marc:I think it has something to do with accessibility and social media platforms have broken everyone's brain and they just assume this intimacy with everybody.
Marc:I don't know that everybody's excited.
Marc:I just think that there's no differentiation.
Marc:If they follow you on whatever, everyone just feels like, I know that guy.
Marc:I'm going to hang out with that guy.
Guest:I do.
Guest:But speaking as a family, like if you talk to them a lot, then what else are they supposed to feel?
Guest:No, I get it.
Guest:Believe me.
Guest:But if you're like constantly engaging, it would kind of feel like if I were a fan.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like I'm very thankful for whatever fans I have.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Because I think...
Guest:We have a great relationship, like a tilt of the hat, like in New York City, like boom, point, point.
Guest:You get it.
Guest:You get it.
Guest:Drink my coffee.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Have a nice day.
Marc:They're not there.
Marc:But are they respectful mostly?
Marc:Very.
Guest:And even like pictures, it's like sweet brief exchanges that I'm like thankful for.
Guest:And I think it's because like I imagine like they don't feel like.
Guest:Recently, people felt closer to me, but they don't feel as familiar as they would someone who- Has a podcast twice a week.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:People have heard you hours and hours.
Guest:No, but just hours and hours of all of your feelings documented.
Guest:So I see you on the street.
Guest:If I've listened to all of your show, it's like-
Guest:Oh, my God, are you all right?
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:I wonder if he got his toilet fixed.
Guest:Yeah, all of it, though.
Marc:No, I get it.
Marc:And I have to sort of act graciously around that.
Marc:But I imagine that at this point, the fans you have are respectful, some inspired, some grateful.
Marc:So, like, you know, it's really relative to what you put out in the world.
Marc:And you've always been pretty honest and now more honest.
Marc:So I think people appreciate that.
Marc:And, you know, you're not attracting guys like, there he is.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Well, the person last night wasn't even there for me.
Guest:They were there for my friend and sat in the booth next to her.
Guest:And it was just wild, the assumption.
Guest:Because I do feel you, that crossing the line.
Guest:Was she a comic?
Guest:Yeah, and an actress and just like...
Guest:But everyone knows her.
Guest:People know.
Guest:Tiffany?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:Well, she would just be singing karaoke with people.
Guest:Going to dinner with Tiff, you're signing up for the show.
Guest:You're part of it.
Guest:If it happened with Tiff, I would just be like, yeah, we're not dancing yet.
Guest:Anyway, the restaurant was great.
Marc:What's it called?
Guest:Mother Wolf.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Atmosphere of six out of ten, five probably.
Guest:So I got to wear shades?
Marc:Is that what you're telling me?
Guest:You should wear shades.
Guest:You're going to get attacked.
Guest:People love you.
Guest:I never have that problem.
Marc:It's always sort of like, why does that sad lady keep looking at me?
Guest:No, but you, like, because you've gotten more famous, you get increasingly more famous.
Marc:I think I've found my level.
Marc:I think I don't know if I'm getting increasingly more famous, but there is a variety of things people could know me from.
Marc:That's what I never know.
Marc:Are you a podcast person?
Marc:Are you a GLOW person?
Marc:Are you a stand-up person?
Guest:But you haven't felt on your level.
Guest:You're still doing stuff.
Guest:Of course, I'm constantly busy.
Guest:If you felt on your level, you'd be Bill Withers.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Doing that song again?
Guest:Well, just in Georgia.
Guest:Ain't no sunshine.
Guest:He just, like, left.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was like, and then I'm out.
Guest:And he just, like, left and went to.
Marc:I think about that all the time, though.
Marc:Yeah, we have that option.
Marc:We do.
Marc:Not you.
Marc:You're just starting.
Guest:Yeah, no, I'm not doing that.
Mm-mm.
Marc:But I'm saying.
Marc:You're not any social media problems?
Marc:You don't do TikTok or anything?
Guest:No, I have a private IG for my friends that I post.
Guest:That's it?
Guest:Yeah, that's it.
Marc:Boys, I was going to ask you about TikTok, but you can't help me.
Guest:I mean, I see it.
Guest:My friends send me and I look at all of them.
Marc:I just got verified on it.
Marc:I'm old.
Guest:Oh, that's cool.
Guest:What do you post?
Guest:What do you put on there?
Marc:I put anything on there.
Guest:What do you want to put on there?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I haven't even started yet.
Marc:I don't even know.
Marc:I just need someone to walk me through getting set up so I don't mind looking like an old idiot.
Marc:Well, that could be the thing.
Marc:I'm kind of thinking that, but I want to do it on purpose.
Guest:Well, you can't.
Guest:You got to trust fall into what you don't know.
Guest:That's probably true.
Guest:And just try it.
Guest:It'll be much funnier if you're actually trying.
Guest:Yeah, maybe that's true.
Guest:Maybe that's true.
Guest:I don't know how to do this.
Guest:And you're just failing at it.
Marc:That would be the way to go.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I watched this new movie last night.
Marc:Now, what's the story behind that?
Marc:Because I didn't know.
Marc:I thought initially that you wrote it, but you didn't.
Marc:And it's been around for a while, right?
Marc:We made it a couple years ago.
Guest:On the count of three?
Guest:Yeah, on the count of three.
Guest:You do it during COVID?
Guest:I did it reshoots during COVID and I started shooting it before, like right before COVID.
Guest:But how did it come about?
Guest:It's a couple years ago.
Guest:It was a script that Ari Kacher, who I've worked with a lot in Ryan Welch,
Guest:Had written.
Guest:These are producers?
Guest:These are writers.
Guest:These are writers.
Guest:And how'd you know him?
Guest:Ari I met years ago.
Guest:He was actually doing stand-up for a little bit.
Guest:Like open mic.
Guest:And he quit.
Guest:He jumped out of the game.
Guest:He's a writer.
Guest:But we met.
Guest:And I appreciated him because I remember seeing him at the Sunset Grill.
Guest:And he would sign up and then go wait in his car.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then he would go up and then he would leave like immediately.
Guest:He didn't talk to anybody.
Guest:And I was like, oh, I want to be friends with him.
Guest:Even though friendship doesn't seem to be his thing.
Guest:He doesn't have that weird neediness.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, it's just it was about the thing he was working on.
Guest:I really appreciate it.
Guest:And so we've worked on a lot of things together.
Guest:He worked on Carmichael show and is a producer and writer on most of the things I've done.
Guest:but i really love this script i love this idea um just because it it felt weirdly aspirational like it was rooted in the thought of having a last day like you know it's easy to get hung up on the suicide aspect of it like oh it's a suicide whatever but it's really just about like two people who have made a decision to end it
Marc:Right.
Marc:But it's not but there's nothing.
Marc:It's not founded in joy.
Guest:But that's so that but that's what was interesting to me was this idea of having a last day.
Guest:And what what would that actually play out like?
Guest:You ever seen the movie The Bucket List, the Morgan Freeman, Jack Nicholson?
Guest:Right.
Guest:I don't know why I saw it.
Guest:But it's usually this aspirational.
Guest:This has been done before.
Guest:This isn't the first last day movie.
Guest:Skydiving and it's these aspirational things and reconciling.
Guest:And I started playing out what...
Marc:actual reconciliation would mean like with a with your with your loved ones with those around you and and yourself i mean this is you trying to reconcile with yourself by making this decision oh i get it so the decision to to end it uh uh you that what precludes that is that i'm gonna i'm gonna settle all my business yes right yes and and that's the excuse to settle all your business the film is about that day yes
Marc:Because theoretically, you could have settled your business to the character with your father at another time.
Guest:But again, you make this decision.
Marc:Sure, I get it.
Marc:But the decision made on behalf of the other guy.
Marc:I mean, I'm just listening to you.
Marc:I'm not arguing with you.
Marc:But I think that for me, what it was about was, you know, resolvable problems and seemingly unresolvable problems.
Marc:So because the other character, once it unfolds, you know, what his issue is and what may be at the heart of his particular emotional and mental problems, you know, it borders on unresolvable.
Marc:Yes, yes.
Marc:And, you know, how he looks at his whole life in relation to that, you know, is overwhelming.
Marc:So in your character, you're sort of like, well, this guy, you know, is having a hard time owning up to responsibilities.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And he has some unresolvable problems, but they are resolvable.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Yes, yes, yes.
Guest:But listen, it's not about that's 30,000 feet above it, resolvable, unresolvable.
Guest:It's about the actual feeling of being in it.
Guest:And everything feels unresolvable.
Guest:Our problems that the immediate ones like hunger, this is result.
Guest:We can see the resolution in that not being able to see it.
Guest:And more importantly, not having the motivation to resolve them.
Marc:shirt like wallowing in that right but like they had but if it was just if it was glib you they wouldn't be empathetic characters because you wouldn't have anything invested yeah because both of you remain you know empathetic you know you you you're connected to you and and in however it ends there there's a certain amount of of you know violent justice but but you never end up you know really disliking either those guys who think any of their actions were were unjustified you
Guest:That was a good spoiler saver, too.
Guest:I like how you did it.
Guest:Like, violent justice is how I would like that written in the synopsis on Hulu.
Guest:I've been doing this a while.
Guest:Yeah, that was a great... Wow, wow.
Guest:That was like Casey Kasem-level disc jockey.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, you know, I'd like people to see the movie.
Marc:I think you did a good job directing it.
Marc:And I think I'd like to track back to, because the last time I talked to you, I don't even remember what it was.
Marc:But when it was, it must have been for the Carmichael show.
Marc:It was at the other house.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And, you know, I was kind of rolling on this sort of celebration of all things Gerard at that time, you know, from all the comedy community.
Marc:Oh, that's funny.
Marc:After a year of like, this guy came out of nowhere.
Guest:Oh, that's so funny.
Guest:That's so funny.
Guest:What do you mean?
Guest:It was just too much.
Guest:I'd imagine that would feel.
Marc:You're one of those guys that I'd heard about.
Marc:My finger's not really on the pulse out in the world that much.
Guest:Comedy is a small community.
Guest:Bigger than it used to be.
Guest:I mean, yeah, yes and no.
Guest:But like, yeah, it is in that like you kind of have this access, like the way the Internet is this massive, understandable thing.
Guest:But but the the community as we know it and as we know, especially at that time.
Guest:Well, we know the guys that are at a certain level.
Guest:And then there's another 10,000 people.
Guest:I remember talking.
Guest:I had a three-hour talk with Patrice on the... You mean Patrice talked to you for three years?
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:A three-hour lecture.
Guest:I'm sorry.
Guest:Let me rephrase that.
Marc:The philosophy of Patrice?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Oh, you got the one-on-one philosophy?
Guest:It was my first time meeting him, and it was right before he died.
Guest:And he walks up to me, and he's just like, oh, I heard about you.
Guest:And you could hear the skepticism and almost disdain in his voice.
Guest:Like, oh, you're supposed to be the new young Chappelle nigga.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm like, I'm just like a kid.
Guest:I'm like, nah.
Guest:I'm like, yeah, okay.
Guest:I guess that sounds like something someone would have said.
Marc:Well, I think I talked to Neil and it was just sort of like, to me at that time, you just emerged from living in a car or something.
Marc:The way that Neil was talking about it at the time, it's like he just showed up and people have been letting him sleep at their house.
Marc:That's not untrue.
Marc:You had a lot of support from dudes that were established and smart dudes.
Guest:It's a good sign that you may be funny.
Guest:The funny comics never leave.
Guest:Like Mike and whatever.
Guest:The ones that were really funny never had to go back home because everyone accommodated.
Guest:Everyone figured it out.
Marc:They felt that you have to have no choice in your mind.
Guest:Yeah, well, but I'm saying like Angelo Bowers, my friend, was so funny at these open mics.
Guest:Like when we first started out, there's no chance in hell we would have let Angelo go home if he was from Modesto.
Guest:If Angelo slept on couches and he would have done so as long as I didn't have a home and I would have made sure.
Marc:But what I'm saying is that because there's no other thing you want to do.
Marc:It's in your mind.
Guest:But we even me as an outsider, I wouldn't I wouldn't have let him.
Guest:Right.
Guest:He was an asset.
Guest:He's good.
Guest:How are you not going to let somebody?
Guest:We wouldn't have let him.
Guest:I've never heard of that, at least when I was coming up through it.
Guest:I sound like I'm such an old man.
Guest:He passed away.
Guest:He was in the car crash.
Guest:Yeah, he passed away.
Guest:Was that the car crash?
Guest:Yeah, the car crash.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:2012.
Guest:Terrible.
Guest:Yeah, terrible, terrible.
Guest:Just right at the start of his potential.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:true well yeah you were oh it's okay no i mean you can but but i'm saying but i'm saying yeah i'm saying like the the world accommodated like he slept on couches because you we didn't want to see him leave no one wanted to see him leave right you also have a crew you know i don't know if it's all based on this sort of like let me tell you something if edge wasn't funny like listen bro like you know take a train you
Guest:Figure it out.
Guest:Come back.
Guest:Crew or no crew.
Guest:Like who has room for that?
Marc:No, but I mean, like there's a peer group that support like you.
Marc:I think everyone has a generational peer group where there's mutual respect and there's suggestions being made.
Marc:And there's also support being given just by virtue of a common kind of, you know, ambition.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, kind of.
Guest:I mean, me and my friends were dogs.
Guest:We all are.
Guest:That respect was based off of competition.
Guest:Sure, competitive and gossipy.
Guest:Yeah, but not even that.
Guest:Because we had nothing.
Guest:We didn't even have anything to gossip about.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, well, there's always something like this.
Guest:But it really was based off what I've seen you do.
Guest:You've seen the potential.
Guest:And that camaraderie, I think, was...
Marc:What's great when you have a few guys or women or people that you know that inspire you and also you're like, holy fuck, that's a good joke.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, where'd that come from?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you were like you stayed with it.
Marc:I guess my question is, you know, there was a big there was the initial arc of you where, you know, you were doing, you know, straight up stand up, which you still do.
Marc:And then, you know, you got that special with Spike and you did that.
Marc:And then like how what is the arc after that?
Marc:And do how do you look at the opportunities you had now after Rathaniel?
Marc:You know, judging against the Gerard I knew, who wasn't out at the time, and the material you were doing at that time, do you look back on any of that and think, like, you know, I was stifled?
Guest:Um...
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I was stifled in my own personal life.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I'm not being truthful.
Guest:I wasn't being truthful at the time.
Guest:So that is stifling.
Guest:That's a huge handicap.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Especially in an art form where you're presumed to be speaking the truth.
Guest:Some of us.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Some of us.
Guest:Some guys just do jokes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:True.
Guest:True.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But how I did it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, like was.
Guest:So it's definitely stifling.
Marc:Do you see any of your point of view coming from a place where there was a lack of self-acceptance or shame?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:That was driving.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My point of again, it was an extension of my my life.
Guest:So I was ignoring it, denying it, all those things.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Probably.
Guest:classic cycle of someone trying to dealing with shame and the material reflected that you know I was definitely I mean I think I mean I was trying to
Guest:I was trying to be interesting, and so I just avoided it.
Guest:I just kind of avoided talking about it as much as I could.
Guest:About the struggle?
Guest:Yeah, well, that wasn't where I was at.
Guest:My act wasn't so much dealing with an internal struggle as much as it's these kind of nice...
Guest:pithy uh ideas but provocative ideas i mean provocative ideas and and and i i i was excited to say them like it's not like any of it was false like the enthusiasm was there like it's it's how i felt i but i think a lot of it was a result of uh protecting what i was hiding yeah you know like a lot of it was very very very defensive i also i
Guest:i rebelled against like you know speaking of comedy being a competitive sport yeah like i rebelled against any um like sympathy any i i don't like the word support yeah me neither um i moved to la no but i moved to la part of the reason i moved to la to start like i started in la
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Uh, was to get away from any, like I could have had 10 friends in North Carolina come to a show and we're going to clap for you anyway.
Marc:Like, you know, I can't stand when people say we're going to come to support.
Guest:It's like, I know what I'm doing.
Guest:No, let me fail miserably.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Just be there, you know, but, but don't even like, I don't need you.
Guest:Like I had a conversation with my agents.
Guest:I switched agencies and like, it's going to hate that I'm saying this publicly, but had an agent that was like, that flew to Montreal, uh,
Guest:to come see me like a couple weeks ago like a couple weeks ago i was doing a show um there and if i'm doing a show like i'm not talking to you dude like he like texted me excited for the show tonight i'm like what the fuck does this have to do with the yeah yeah ice of rice yeah don't tell me you're here and don't yeah i don't need you what the fuck do you what what purpose do you have here well that's it that's all that montreal is for now is for them to go drink
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But anyway, that's an extreme situation.
Guest:But I'm saying even at the beginning, like I... So even a lot of my act, you know, as it relates to me, like I rebelled against... I think I said things that would piss black people off because I didn't want to get like, oh, he's the poor black kid that could whatever.
Guest:So my perspective was...
Guest:At the time, I would have probably thought of it as like aspirational.
Guest:So I had material like I can't wait to be a Republican and I'm I'm going to.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Whatever you think I am on its head.
Guest:And like, I'm going to show you I'm smart.
Guest:It was a lot of.
Guest:Well, I think what you do.
Marc:And I used to and I've talked about it before with myself, is that when you decide on comedy, it's you and that's it.
Marc:And, you know, whatever you're coming at it with, whatever.
Marc:you decide, you have to figure out what your space is on that stage.
Marc:You have to, and the way you do that sometimes is by pushing people away so you have it.
Marc:And then you find out who you are.
Guest:I'm saying, you know, as far as me, I was like...
Guest:You know, I was trying to show that I was smart.
Guest:I think I understood the craft pretty early on.
Guest:You know, like the came out of nowhere is probably more.
Guest:I remember by my second mic, I felt like I got it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like, oh, OK.
Guest:So you were a prodigy.
Guest:Kind of.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:that was the word on the street yeah yeah yeah kind of but I've rebelled against the two one like it's like celebrating youth like hey yeah it's not you know there's like so brief bro like it is like it's like who cares I felt that way I felt that way like um anytime I even thought about those things like because if those stats like someone was like you know you're the youngest person to get past at the cellar and I'm like bro that stat means something to me
Guest:Does it?
Guest:It's over.
Guest:No, I mean, it's like a nice thing to hear in the hallway once.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like, oh, OK, cool.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But like, I'm going to hold on to that.
Guest:I'm going to hold on to a list that somebody made.
Marc:The one person that says that in a good way is, you know, behind them is like 100 people saying like, that fucking kid.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, of course, of course.
Guest:Well, comedy, like, of course they won't.
Guest:Like, comedians are all, you know, like the story of the Odyssey, they're all suitors, like, trying to thread the boat.
Guest:Right, and then you come home and the dog recognizes you.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:And you kill all the suitors.
Guest:Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Guest:That's the game.
Guest:That's the game.
Marc:Hey, boy, I gotta kill these guys.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'll be back in a little while.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, uh...
Marc:But in doing like what was the process and what happened ultimately with the Carmichael show?
Marc:I'd like to know more about, you know, your sort of journey to producing.
Marc:And because I never understand how that happens.
Marc:You know, so you you know, you did this stand up special and then the Carmichael show happened.
Marc:And did you who guided you through that process of knowing that, you know, you could start to build, you know, a production company or build that place for yourself?
Guest:Um, nobody really.
Guest:I think it's all just an extension of my.
Guest:I'm trying to find a way to say I always I'm trying to find a way that sounds free of ego to say I always just do what I want to do.
Guest:But I guess there's no other way of saying that.
Guest:So I'll say that that I mostly just do what I want to do.
Guest:Anything I produce, anything I work on is an extension of.
Guest:a friendship, uh, conversations that are had on my couch or over dinner or whatever that kind of grow and become a thing.
Marc:So did it start with the Carmichael show?
Guest:Well, Carmichael show was, uh, it was originally, uh, uh,
Guest:I wasn't going to do a show for myself.
Guest:I was just doing stand up and always.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Especially at that point.
Guest:It's like the offering shows.
Guest:I only did say that one track mine.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I didn't want to do that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I didn't even I hadn't even filmed anything for television at that point.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Deliberately.
Guest:I was like I just wanted to work and get better.
Guest:You know, the opportunities presented itself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yada, yada, yada.
Guest:You get the show.
Guest:It just kind of became an outlet for my perspective.
Guest:It was fun to write with Ari.
Guest:I think of the show mostly as my performance of it in my living room.
Guest:I think of it mostly as lines back and forth.
Guest:It was fun to try and get wild shit on air.
Guest:It was like...
Guest:it was like i always heard what you couldn't do and what they wouldn't allow and so it was like it was very fun to like i did all the things yeah yeah like i did all the things under the guise not the guy but in the in the you pushed it yeah but in in the wrapped up in a network sitcom with the studio audience and that was really fun to me to like yeah try and have like a an adult show in this format like yeah um
Guest:And then, you know, it was over.
Guest:But you felt like, what was it, two seasons?
Marc:Technically three.
Marc:One was short, but yeah.
Marc:But you felt like I did it.
Marc:I'm done with this format.
Guest:Yeah, well, just, like, that's, like, I couldn't go further and still be excited about it myself.
Guest:Yeah, I get it.
Guest:Like, this is, I get, we did, I think, 32 episodes of,
Guest:Yeah, maybe three or four of them are bad.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then is that funny?
Marc:You can't like, you know, you know, which ones work.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:But and I know where I lost it and I know where where I'm telling you why I like stop.
Guest:I know where it's.
Guest:removed from the fire of an original idea yeah like those episodes that are bad are bad because there wasn't me in my living room at its core going like and then this happens and then i come in with cosby tickets and then like that like those ideas aren't flowing so it kind of now it's an episode of tv i don't want to do an episode of tv yeah like the same you don't want it to be just a refillable
Guest:Who care?
Guest:I don't want to stand up like my special.
Guest:I don't want to do a special.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What do you want to do?
Guest:I don't care about doing a special.
Guest:I care about, as pretentious as it will sound, capturing an idea.
Guest:I care about that.
Guest:Because I know that's the only shit that works.
Guest:Everything else fails.
Guest:Everything else is meaningless.
Guest:It's why we know people who are in high positions, who hate their jobs, who go to work every day, who have some show that they do nightly or have some show that they do daily and they don't like it.
Guest:I don't think it fails.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:By my criteria of success.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You know how some people, I hate to throw him under the bus, but some people even make money look sad, like Nick Cannon.
Guest:You ever see Nick Cannon and you just don't want to be Nick Cannon?
Guest:Nick Cannon can make consistently $100 million more than me a year.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I just wouldn't have...
Guest:radio show to your talk show to you like no I would never want to do that but that's for me by my own personal criteria of success my but my criteria of success is very personal it's tracking growth trying to challenge myself in a way that like so so if I'm doing an episode of TV and it's like oh he booked two dates or whatever the fuck yeah he sitcom yeah shit or even if it's something provocative that I don't fucking feel yeah
Guest:It's worthless.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:It's meaningless.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I don't want to do it.
Guest:I wouldn't do it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So in terms of, you know, you've made public statements about Chappelle in terms of, you know, how he's locked on to this topic for reasons that are relatively unexplainable.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I can't explain.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Unless it's like religion.
Marc:I don't know what it is.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Or some sort of mental glitch.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But but you're conscious of the you're aware of what, you know, we're up against as people who believe in in tolerance and progress, you know, people, you know, that, you know, that the underdog, whoever they may be, you know, deserves to have a life without being trampled upon.
Guest:So my thoughts on Chappelle is coming, one, from a fan's perspective.
Guest:Sure, of course.
Guest:Of someone who just has clearly a brilliant mind.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:and knowing that he's an artist right because i not you know i was talking about this with a friend about like you kind of do have to draw the line right like yeah like and i don't even mean this pretentiously but this is the place to even say it but like yeah some people are making artistic yeah exactly so i feel comfortable but but some people are making artistic choices and some people aren't right and sometimes there's a frustration like comics who like and i'm saying this respectfully that like are taking the the route of
Guest:I'm posting a clip every day and doing the thing.
Guest:Look at me do crowd work badly.
Guest:Well, because obviously the material has to be diluted because you have to do this every day.
Guest:So you can't be an artist.
Guest:And that may not even be your goal.
Guest:No, I get it.
Guest:There's only a few of us.
Guest:I'm saying Chappelle is an artist.
Guest:He is an artist and very clearly an artist.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Guest:And I'm saying from the same perspective of, like, if, you know, I love Jay-Z's Blueprint 1.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Love Blueprint 2.
Guest:Right.
Guest:If Blueprint 3, if all Blueprints were him talking about trans people, I'd be like, hey, Jay, like, what's up?
Guest:I'm a fan.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:you know like so that that is just more because i know i get it he has such an expansive mind so that that came from a place of love like no i i totally understand that but what what the next the next step from love is sort of like what's
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But that only certain people will ask that.
Guest:Comedians get caught up in like, you know, it's the illusion of it's a fight for freedom of expression.
Guest:I don't I don't I think like, you know, it's a battle that Neil Neil had a funny thing.
Guest:He's just talking about like comedians talking about the battle that they have.
Guest:He's like, what battle?
Guest:People are turning to Rogan for health advice.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What meat do I eat?
Guest:Yeah, like the battle.
Guest:Everyone has deals.
Marc:No, that is not what it's about.
Marc:That's almost the new hack.
Marc:I don't know if I can say this.
Guest:But it's an excuse to keep it exterior, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
Marc:But it's also drawing lines.
Marc:I mean, because it's like there's no pushback.
Marc:There's no like...
Marc:There's no, like, anti-anti-woke, really.
Marc:You know, you got the anti-woke, you've got this consolidation of a point of view that's easily co-opted, you know, by right-wing fuckheads.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, that really stifles, you know, kind of...
Marc:cultural progress.
Marc:And there's no strong voice on the other side.
Marc:I mean, so when you speak out or even when you do a show like Rathaniel, despite whatever feedback that's going to get, that is a unique voice standing up against this very myopic, small spectrum bullshit of what it means to have freedom of speech.
Marc:So the fact that there is no real opposition and that there is definitely a line being drawn
Marc:in this community and in comedy is disconcerting.
Guest:Well, I'm saying, look, there's plenty of opposition, right, in the world.
Guest:Kind of.
Guest:In the world.
Guest:Oh, yeah, sure.
Guest:And in your own mind.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I just, you know, I...
Guest:as an artist like i i don't i like it when the danger is real for yeah for me for me right and so and even the art like that i am attracted to is like when the danger is real and it's a lot like there's an air of presumed danger that i believe is false sure and sure and
Guest:You know what I mean?
Marc:Self-importance, in a way.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I might get canceled.
Marc:No one's even here.
Marc:Or you would dream to.
Marc:You would dream to.
Marc:Because you want that kind of attention.
Guest:Yeah, who doesn't want that kind of attention?
Marc:So let's go back to what I was getting at, though, in terms of your decisions around.
Marc:What was the decision around doing Drew's special without an audience?
Marc:The first one.
Guest:I saw him in kind of my first thought.
Guest:was that it almost felt like soliloquy.
Guest:And I was just curious.
Guest:It felt like it was all in his own head and he suffered from hearing loss his whole life.
Guest:And he's such a dynamic performer.
Guest:And it was like, oh, he would do this if no one were in the room.
Guest:That's really where the thought came from.
Guest:And I was curious, would it work if no one were in the room?
Guest:Being truthful is probably something
Guest:Like, I wanted to do, right?
Guest:But just as the kind of musical chairs lined up, it was like working with Drew.
Guest:And it was just like, oh, this idea.
Guest:So, like, it was probably...
Guest:I'm very proud of it, but it was probably even more suited for me.
Guest:It came from even my feelings at the time.
Guest:Now I have a need for the audience, and we'll get to that later, but my relationship with the audience has changed.
Guest:How does that happen?
Guest:What was the transition?
Guest:I didn't do stand-up for a long time.
Marc:What were you doing?
Marc:Was it during the pandemic, you mean?
Marc:Before.
Guest:After 8, I was very happy with 8.
Guest:And it felt like the max of where that could go.
Guest:It was like, okay, I was happy with the material.
Guest:I was happy with my work with Bo.
Guest:I really thought we... I just didn't see...
Guest:I didn't see like I was like, OK, like, you know, I me doing stand up in that way.
Guest:I reached the ceiling.
Marc:But OK, but was that a stand up issue?
Marc:Was that a personal issue that you you know, you knew you had to deal with something in yourself?
Guest:that wasn't you weren't ready to do stand up about what i'm saying at the time like like that was my feeling on just from a purely observate observing because and this is this is all it's all personal right it's all personal like my view on my career and my thing so like how i felt like you know at that point uh twitter's swallowing up the comedian you know like twitter like twitter's like
Guest:And you go to McDonald's and you see the screen.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where the cashiers used to be.
Guest:You know, like Twitter's relationship to the comedian.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's that limited a menu.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:But yeah.
Guest:Yeah, but like all of it like the the internet's relationship to comedy as I do it.
Guest:Okay, so You know I was laughing at shit on the internet like everybody else I was like and I was like I got nothing to add to this.
Guest:Yeah, you know I really was feeling that way kind of constantly and and
Guest:yes there were things i was running from in my life my own sexuality my family's history all these things like i'm running from that kind of existed separate right so even but it influenced the other thing so once dealing with that like just like in my life um as a as a man of leisure i heard eddie murphy say in a rolling stone uh interview once that he was just a man of leisure now yeah he's like smoking weed and like playing reggae music and i was like okay i did that for like four years i was just like
Guest:Just until the money ran out.
Guest:Just like, all right, well then.
Guest:But you were working on shit.
Guest:I was always writing, always working.
Guest:But I mean, the personal thing.
Guest:Oh, yes.
Guest:So free associative therapy, all of that.
Guest:You did that?
Guest:Yeah, still.
Guest:But facing things and trying to...
Guest:have access to bravery in my real life and have brave moments where I can have conversations that were difficult.
Guest:But was this all prep?
Guest:What's that?
Guest:Was it all prep to sort of like face?
Guest:Well, everything we do is all prep for the ultimate whatever.
Guest:I guess what I'm looking at.
Guest:But I'm an artist so I make
Guest:home videos i make sermon on the mouth like these are like peaks into like and there's small things on hbo that like i i'm happy i was able to make and have an outlet for it but just like this is all for me just exploring like taking cameras home and like try like no thought of an audience
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:It's just what I wanted to see.
Guest:Like home videos is so specifically me.
Guest:It sounds like me.
Guest:It is like that's such a personal tucked away.
Guest:Like, like, it's like an album cut that like an artist made.
Guest:There's like a demo that comes out later.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Marc:Oh, man, that's when he was.
Guest:Yeah, that was just the thing that I.
Guest:had released on HBO, but it was for me.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And me trying to come out to my mom.
Guest:Like, these were very scary things for me, but it was like, I didn't send it to press when I released it.
Guest:I didn't do press for it.
Guest:Like, I just was like... Leave it there.
Guest:This is it.
Guest:And it was for me.
Guest:It was to show my family themselves, all these types of things.
Guest:But all of this is...
Guest:Me exploring my capacity as a filmmaker, who I am on camera, my ability to be truthful on camera, who I am as a performer, all these things, like exploring these things, but I just need to make stuff.
Guest:Yeah, and what was the impact?
Marc:You know, on the family, like before Rathaniel, with the documentaries, with the home videos and Sermon on the Mount.
Marc:How did it change your relationship?
Guest:It's like having the realest conversation you could have, but like on HBO, right?
Guest:Because it's like having a real conversation.
Guest:And it it draws lines in the sand, like people like, you know, I'm gay.
Guest:My mom believes in God.
Guest:And to us, that's a well opposite size of a big hill.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so, like any public declaration of that, any the things that I'm making are just, you know, I'm.
Guest:It's it has the same effect that the conversation would have.
Guest:I just need to make something of it.
Guest:I need to make.
Guest:I get that.
Guest:I get that.
Marc:But ultimately, you know, needing to make art and having the platform that you have.
Marc:I mean, there's a lot of people that need to make art that nobody sees really or seven people see, but they still need to do it and they do it.
Marc:So at some point you realize that you need to make art, but you also realize that, you know, thousands of people are going to see it.
Marc:Whether you think about those people or not, you realize it.
Marc:So there is a bigger declaration to it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So like, yeah, like home videos is probably in the thousands of like, you know, that it was it was made with less.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:consideration then right you'd say oh I know I'm not saying you're playing to them but like what has been see because like somebody in what you're doing in your personal bravery in your struggle to figure out a way how to be brave in your personal life and then to sort of live in your truth you know that is an inspirational struggle
Marc:There's something about wanting to express yourself and wanting to be an artist, but you have to be in your heart, I think, on some level, wanting people to know that it's okay to live your truth.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, now, recently, I've felt that sense of responsibility.
Guest:I've run from that sense of responsibility, I think, my whole career.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But now in being truthful and connecting, I'm like, oh, oh, I see what this can mean to people and I see how it can connect.
Guest:And I wasn't doing material like that before.
Guest:It was like I was trying to be funny or whatever, but I wasn't like doing that.
Guest:And so now I am imbued with
Guest:A sense of responsibility in my work that I was leading to like what all these things like leading.
Guest:It was leading.
Guest:Sure, of course.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But like it seemed one.
Marc:What were the discussions, you know.
Marc:with but because like you know rathaniel you know as you know people are going to interpret that you know what whether you read the criticism or not or whether you read the graves or whatever you read about it you know the idea the i the primary idea is this is very personal it's a great performance it's powerful and then the other side of that is but is it stand up is he a stand up are we still doing stand up
Marc:But I think it's supposed to spark those questions.
Guest:No, I know that.
Marc:But before we get to that, though, what were your discussions with Bo after you did the two documentaries and you're moving towards this material?
Marc:And I don't...
Marc:I guess I don't know how much you were working it out in the clubs leading up to it or how much of it was a public conversation.
Guest:I started in the clubs, but it proved to be the wrong environment.
Guest:So then I started doing shows removed from the clubs.
Guest:Like where?
Guest:Like, oh, just in small theaters?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:So what was the conversation with Bo, you know, in terms of what your intentions were as a director to the artist?
Guest:I think me and Bo...
Guest:are, I think we're both obsessed with television from YouTube to, you know, broadcast to whatever, just like the medium, right?
Guest:Obsessed with, uh, uh, events, experiences, these types of things.
Guest:So like the conversation is always, it starts on what is the show, right?
Guest:Like, like we, like we started in a very simple place.
Guest:Um, just,
Guest:In terms of look or intent, like what is the show?
Guest:Why are people going to watch it?
Guest:What are we watching?
Guest:Yeah, what are we watching?
Guest:Like what are we watching, right?
Guest:And I, just speaking for myself, I think I've always done stand-up for these specials to capture.
Marc:That's supposed to be what we work towards.
Guest:But I'm making that.
Guest:I'm always making that.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:Because I know that's the biggest piece of my... I don't really tour.
Guest:Again, at this part of the reason, it probably begs a lot of questions.
Guest:Like, well, what is the... The world is changing.
Marc:But I can tell.
Marc:As a guy who's a comic and touring extensively right now or whatever my life is, I mean, I can watch Rathaniel and now after you... I would have said, he hasn't really worked this shit out.
Marc:No.
Guest:Well, but it's not, but it's not not working it out.
Guest:I don't, I don't tour in that sense of like, cause I'm not doing it.
Guest:I'm not doing it to sharpen it for like, I'm not, this is where I'm not a politician.
Guest:This isn't a stump speech.
Guest:It's still a show, but my show isn't shaped by jokes.
Guest:But it's still shaped by a through line.
Guest:It's shaped by a narrative, but it's not shaped by jokes.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:It's funny, but it's not shaped by jokes.
Marc:And if you don't shape it by jokes, then out of necessity, because of whatever your heart says in the moment, if you need to find the funny, you'll find it.
Guest:Yes, but I'm only responding to...
Guest:So like you're saying working it out.
Guest:That's by that's a different standard.
Guest:I don't I don't do the I actually I sometimes toy with the idea of like, oh, maybe like just call it something.
Guest:I go back and forth.
Guest:Sometimes I'm like, all right, well, then just call what I do something else because I don't even really care to be in the conversation sometimes like about comedy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, just like, just like, all right, well, because it's so personal.
Guest:I'm like, then I do something else.
Guest:And I sometimes am at a venue known for comedy doing it.
Guest:And sometimes I'm at the Blue Note or whatever.
Guest:But this is my show.
Guest:And as far as shows go, put it in a different pile.
Guest:You got to work it out.
Guest:But then I go, then.
Guest:then my mind goes back to like no no like like because comedians are a frustrated bunch but i love it and i love the art form a lot and my true intention is to expand the art form and i don't want to see it die i don't want to see it die and i don't think people know that they're dead i watch comedy and i feel like oh this is dead like oh oh we're like these are ghosts i like watch specials i'm like oh zombies it's worked out and oh by the old i get it the old
Marc:The shit is already stale once it hits the TV.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:But it's dead.
Guest:Because there's no show.
Guest:There's no core.
Guest:There's no fire.
Guest:There's no light.
Guest:There's no passion.
Guest:We've got to leave that room, man.
Guest:So what I'm saying is, I know what the art form... What I, in my mind, see its potential.
Guest:I think it can be and has room for growth outside of...
Marc:the traditional expectations i get it but like i mean i understand what you're doing and i and i you know and i you know i'm from the same school of thought yeah that you know you you improvise and you you work your shit out but we're doing something no we're doing different things i think though maybe in a i'm not i'm i don't know if i'm i don't think i'm gay no but i don't think it has anything to do with that like i'm like i'm
Guest:And I think you're an incredible craftsman who's let people in to yourself.
Guest:I'm not I'm doing something like I'm like telling the truth on stage.
Guest:I say this humbly, but it is just a very.
Guest:It's a high wire act.
Guest:Well, that's all.
Guest:But I'm saying it's not.
Marc:But you're not giving me the credit because I am living in a world where I'm not that great a craftsman.
Marc:And all I do is tell the truth and hope that I have to contextualize things now where I say I cannot speak broadly.
Marc:I cannot speak in generalizations.
Marc:So if you identify with my story, then that's for you.
Guest:No, but you have more of a, I think it's like you have more of, and I'm not saying this as a, I think you have more of a structured, like a more traditional, like if I see you on a talk show, right?
Guest:I see you on like Fallon or something, right?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I know how to do that.
Marc:You know how to do it.
Guest:And I mean this because I love when like Martin Short is on it and Burr when he has.
Guest:And it's like this like.
Guest:You know where you're going.
Guest:But you know where you're going.
Guest:And I'd see it.
Guest:And as a performer, I watch you and I go like, oh, Mark knew.
Guest:Oh, and he brought it back.
Guest:And he's the callback of the thing.
Guest:What I'm saying is.
Guest:My show, I think I'm relying on a set, just something, a different set of skills.
Marc:On being present in your show.
Guest:Yeah, but still shaped around the show.
Guest:It's very important that it's a show and that it's crafted as such, but it's just...
Guest:It strikes a different.
Guest:You don't want to know what's going to happen.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that's why I'm saying like and this is just me.
Guest:Just it's in response to the term of like working it out.
Guest:Like, well, what does that mean?
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Like, like, what does it mean to work a thing out?
Guest:Like, because part of like, like my my career.
Guest:I think I was trying to prove a lot, like my first two specials.
Guest:We could go as deep as trying to prove it.
Guest:I could make it as a straight man.
Guest:I could make it without relying on any crutches.
Guest:It was always removal of crutches.
Guest:I was trusting my own internal brilliance, and I could do that so I could make it on these jokes.
Guest:My jokes are better than your jokes on these things.
Guest:And I made it as that.
Guest:I did those things.
Guest:Just for me, that doesn't maximize my potential, is what I've learned.
Guest:That I'm funnier, I'm better once I cross that line.
Guest:And I think I've been begging to do that my whole life, but I just didn't have the knowledge.
Marc:Once you get to a place where you can let go of the expectation to repeat it.
Marc:That's not your job.
Marc:That, you know, you find the real freedom.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah, it's definitely, you know, it's me finding urgency and presenting that as a show.
Marc:So when Bo, when you guys, he did 8 too, I guess, right?
Marc:But the new one at the Blue Note, the vibe was, you know, you're just coming in off the street and you're going to lay it down.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But not even as the vibe was like walking through the snow to say the thing I was terrified of.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Like the vibe was that like- Were you truly terrified?
Marc:Of course.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I came out after 30, bro.
Guest:I thought I would have rather died than have someone find out.
Guest:Like these are true words.
Guest:I'm not even saying it as a like-
Guest:That's what I'm saying.
Guest:For me, the special was it's not even about coming out and my act.
Guest:It's not even about that.
Guest:I think it's easy to go like, well, it's the coming out special, whatever.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Whatever makes comedians feel better.
Guest:I was facing a fear on stage for real.
Guest:I was terrified every time I said it.
Guest:I dealt with.
Guest:gasp in Atlanta, like people getting angry with people.
Guest:You said it a couple times.
Guest:Again, it's a show.
Guest:It's still a show.
Guest:I did the road, but it's presenting the show.
Guest:I had reactions that were like.
Marc:So you had once you did this special you you had you you had experience with how it was being received.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I and I knew that it goes against my audience expectation.
Guest:And that's also part of the thing that we want to capture because it's so rare you get that.
Guest:Like I have an audience coming in.
Guest:Like you said earlier, Gerard, as you know him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm presenting something else.
Guest:And that's like, oh, we get to capture that on camera.
Guest:That's that's an exciting.
Guest:So the show is about your fear.
Guest:But the show is about the synopsis could be man who's afraid of heights jumps out of an airplane on HBO.
Guest:Like that could be the name of the show.
Guest:That was what we were capturing.
Guest:So it's like.
Guest:Like that, that's what I'm saying again.
Guest:I don't see people don't really do that.
Guest:Like work out their actual fears on state.
Guest:Like that's what I'm, my recent show is more about that.
Guest:Like not many, but there's a couple.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's having like three times in the history of comedy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Maybe.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, but, but it's not like, because it's,
Marc:most people shouldn't do that i don't think most people should do that but i'm saying it's just what i've chosen to do and like i've used the base of my career as like a trellis yeah yeah and in terms like in you how many did you record two four four how many how many uh were included in in the special
Marc:Was that just... Like I'm saying, did you pull from four or did you just use one show?
Guest:I don't know actually what the full number... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Outside, I'm just curious because I watched it and...
Marc:outside of, you know, my experience with it was, you know, exactly what you're talking about.
Marc:But ultimately, like, there was part of me that's sort of like, I wish there was a closer.
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:That just like, you know, the sort of pensive, unresolved situation, which remains unresolved, I imagine, with your mother, is what it is.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So there was no... Yeah, that's the show.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:Well, that was the show.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Again, I'm like, like, yeah...
Marc:But asking you as a comic, because there are jokes in there.
Marc:Yeah, of course.
Marc:Now, which one's your favorite word?
Guest:I don't have a favorite word.
Marc:I mean, what did you like saying the most?
Marc:Come on.
Marc:I mean, when you're up there, you know when you're about to drop one.
Marc:Well, because I had never told stories before.
Marc:Of personal types.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Even period.
Guest:I've never like a storyteller.
Guest:So Rothaniel's my first time like telling stories on stage like is my own.
Guest:So I'm saying that to say that like all of them kind of feel the same in that way.
Marc:I thought the best moment like and I'm weird about this stuff because.
Marc:Because even when I watch, I haven't watched all of Chappelle's specials, but for me, one of the best bits that he did in the last however many specials that I saw was that one about Anthony Bourdain's killing himself.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:It's a great intro.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:The one where he's talking about his friend.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:He would never think about it.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:To me, a genius bit in terms of entitlement class.
Marc:It's all in there, and it wasn't his intention.
Marc:But for me, the moment where, you know, where you don't necessarily want to be gay.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And that the moment in the shower, I think, was that.
Guest:Well, that's because you're a straight man.
Guest:Like, that's such a straight man favorite.
Guest:Oh, straight guys love that because it's me reaching out to them.
Guest:That's literally like an olive oil.
Marc:But the moment where you're sort of like, oh my God.
Guest:Yeah, but that's a pocket of an olive branch.
Guest:That's me holding your hand through it.
Guest:Well, I mean, I'm not that.
Guest:No, but I'm saying to like a... Yeah, no, that's definitely like a classic, the straight man classic.
Marc:Right, well, I mean, but I think that...
Marc:Whether it's straight or not straight, I think that whether it's just, you know, cis culture in general, you know, to bring in that moment.
Guest:Yeah, it's a window of like, wow.
Guest:But it's one of the only moments where it's like, I'm giving you the experience.
Guest:Yeah, that's interesting.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that in a sense, it's more it's it's it's it's it's exactly indicative of the kind of comedy you used to do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's moments of it.
Guest:It's moments of like, oh, and now literal observation.
Guest:It's an observation.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:I'm outside of myself giving you the experience of being me for for a moment.
Marc:And that's a tool.
Marc:So how do you feel as an artist and as a person now?
Marc:Do you feel relieved?
Marc:No.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Good.
Guest:For what?
Marc:Well, I mean that something that had been a burden for as long as it was a burden is lifted.
Marc:So maybe it relieves not...
Marc:You know, like that, at least you can own yourself completely.
Marc:Maybe that's not relieving.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like, but, but I'm also, you know, the, the resolution of the special is the lack of relief.
Marc:The lack of, yeah, it's like, like, which I think you can accept you, but that doesn't mean that everybody can accept you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What would have, what would a closer have done to that?
Marc:Well, there wasn't one.
Marc:And I understand that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, but like, that's just me and my, you know, my old school comedy expectation.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And there's nothing wrong with subverting that.
Guest:So, but then where does the old school stop or what?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Cause then it's just like, well, if you were alive during Shecky Green, then you're like, well, no, no, no, no, no.
Marc:I mean, I'm, I'm not talking about that tradition.
Marc:Like, you know, like that, there was no other way to really finish the story you were telling.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That, you know, I understand.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But that's what I'm saying.
Guest:I'm interested in stories and I'm interested in specials and presenting these things.
Guest:And look, I got no problem with like a complete idea.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, I think that I'm not saying a closer necessarily even in funny.
Marc:You know what?
Marc:You know what?
Marc:What was at the end of that was like, I don't know how this is going to evolve.
Marc:yeah and and i think that's true about anything but i think that in necessarily that i like but just in life i guess what i'm saying is that you know in the show and you thinking about oh okay i was gonna say like yeah yeah yeah you know a lot of times when you're doing a show it's like do you like it's are you setting up a series of sequels guess what i'm back it's still not going good with my
Guest:Yeah, no, it can, but what is your special?
Guest:If you're talking about personal stuff, it's all a series of sequels.
Guest:Eight ended on a joke outside of myself that was probably the most personal thing I said in it, just about family secrets and dad having other family.
Guest:Eight, in many ways, ended on a cliffhanger that then we stepped into in Rathaniel.
Guest:Yeah, it's all connected.
Guest:And it should track your growth as an artist through your work.
Marc:I think that what we're sort of talking about in terms of the difference in approach is that there's a movement against generalization for the personally authentic.
Marc:Because we talked about point of view, and the only way you can have a point of view is if you offer your personal truth at the risk of losing people or at the risk of it being too personal.
Marc:So that's the primary difference.
Marc:It doesn't mean it's not comedy, but you look at someone like Pryor, who is an artist, but was very concerned with being general enough
Marc:to sort of get over.
Guest:Well, that's our review of prior.
Guest:If you read about Live on a Sunset, it sounds a lot like one of my first shows.
Marc:I'm like, oh.
Marc:Sure, but I'm saying that he was trying to broaden
Guest:I think he, as a result, has.
Guest:But that's different.
Guest:It's like saying 808s and Heartbreak was trying to change the sound of radio.
Guest:It's trying to be its own specific thing.
Guest:Seinfeld is trying to do Seinfeld.
Guest:It's not your fault every fucking comic walking out of Montreal wants to do that, too.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:The reason I'm saying this is that I know people, and I'm seeing it more lately, that try to have the broadest appeal possible.
Marc:in order to maximize their exposure and their business.
Marc:And they're doing it on purpose.
Marc:But I don't know that that makes them less of an artist.
Guest:I think it's just the pursuit of different things.
Guest:I learned to think about myself that when I bring up numbers,
Guest:It's because I want to be seen.
Guest:I don't feel like I'm getting the respect I deserve.
Guest:So when I start thinking about numbers, I'm seeking respect from whoever I don't feel like I'm getting it from.
Marc:But that's an internal voice.
Guest:That's an internal voice.
Guest:But I'm saying that could be how I quantify my career.
Guest:You've struggled with that.
Guest:You could, but it's just like I know that it's not coming from the right place.
Guest:The right place.
Marc:But that's a struggle.
Marc:You're aware of that within you.
Guest:It can quickly go back.
Guest:If my ego is like, if my feelings are hurt by some comment.
Guest:I've heard comics dismiss the thing as if people don't want it.
Guest:And I'm just like, my ego goes...
Guest:I mean, what?
Guest:You'll never.
Guest:I can go to where I'm living.
Guest:I've read things about me on a boat.
Guest:Who the fuck are you?
Guest:And I'm like, oh, why am I going to that?
Guest:And it's like, oh, that's ego.
Guest:My feelings are hurt.
Guest:Because I feel like I owed more respect or whatever.
Guest:So I go to numbers.
Guest:Some people are...
Guest:just that's their pursuit and and that should be their pursuit like how well the thing that number one on the what or even how many or how many years and those types of things that's just not i mean how we got here no no no i know i know how we got here it was just about the idea of speaking generally to a broader audience on purpose
Marc:Oh, yeah, because if you're in pursuit of that, then that's the job.
Marc:Right, and basically you're saying that we can't backload that into Pryor's intentions.
Marc:It was just because he was more troubled and pure than that.
Guest:Listen, I want as many people possible to see my work.
Guest:When we make something, it's like, I want you to see it.
Guest:It's a movie, the special, whatever.
Guest:I want everybody to see it.
Guest:But the intention was...
Guest:Personal and specific.
Guest:The hope is that by going there, it can connect with as many people as possible.
Guest:But I don't think about that when making.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So what's going on now outside of the movie?
Marc:What's the big plan?
Marc:I hear you like I heard about the Montreal show.
Marc:I was up there talking about sex.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, well, that's been life.
Guest:Are you having fun?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, in ways.
Guest:But I mean, obviously, I'm dealing with things and still trying to get rid of shame and.
Guest:you know all the things yeah it's not that that's not unique but i'm trying to process it you know i'm just trying to process but i'm yeah i'm enjoying myself i still like you're doing i'll probably go to burgers never say die or something yeah yeah what's that oh you gotta go it's like my favorite burger oh really it used to be in sean's backyard and then he opened a restaurant and it's oh okay so stand up you're doing much
Guest:I have a show.
Guest:I'm actually doing one tonight at The Lyric.
Guest:I think later tonight.
Guest:Yeah, I have a show.
Guest:I have a show.
Guest:It's getting there.
Guest:You're working it out?
Guest:Yeah, I guess that's the word.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm figuring it out.
Guest:I'm definitely figuring it out.
Guest:I would probably worry that I'm trying to understand what the fuck is going on.
Sure.
Okay.
Okay.
Guest:All right.
Marc:You use the language you want to use.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But yeah, working it out.
Guest:I'm going to go work it out tonight.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Good talking to you, man.
Marc:Good talking to you.
Marc:That was good.
Marc:I like talking to that guy.
Marc:As I said before, On the Count of Three is streaming now on Hulu, and you can watch all his other stuff everywhere you watch other stuff.
Marc:And please, can you hang out for one second?
Marc:Just hang out.
Marc:Stay right where you are, please.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:As I mentioned earlier, if you want to send me a question for the Ask Mark Anything episode we're posting next week on the full Marin, go to the link in the episode description.
Marc:That's the part of this episode on your podcast player where it says all the stuff about today's show.
Marc:You can also get a link to sign up for WTF Plus there.
Marc:So I did it last month, but I just got the questions in real time from Instagram users.
Marc:It was very rapid fire, and there were a lot of them.
Marc:This time I'll see all your submissions in advance, so I'll have a little more time to consider my answers and figure out some stories to tell.
Marc:Okay?
Marc:Next week we have Andrew Garfield on Monday's show and singer-songwriter S.G.
Marc:Goodman on Thursday.
Marc:Both great talks.
Marc:I didn't know what to expect from Garfield.
Marc:But we had a pretty deep it got it got pretty emotional around once again around grief and around.
Marc:It was just it really kind of unfolded nicely.
Marc:I really didn't know what to expect.
Marc:And it was great.
Marc:And S.G.
Marc:Goodman has two records out and they're tremendous.
Marc:And I didn't again didn't know what to expect.
Marc:She's from Kentucky.
Marc:She lives out in the rural part of Kentucky.
Marc:She has very interesting life and she's kind of an amazing songwriter and singer.
Marc:And I love her work.
Marc:But I was nervous.
Marc:But it was great.
Marc:It was great.
Marc:I'm in Lincoln, Nebraska at the Rococo Theater tonight.
Marc:Then Des Moines, Iowa at the Hoyt Sherman Place tomorrow, August 19th.
Marc:And Iowa City, Iowa at the Englert Theater on Saturday, August 20th.
Marc:I'm in Tucson, Arizona at the Rialto Theater on September 16th.
Marc:Phoenix, Arizona at Stand Up Live on September 17th.
Marc:Boulder, Colorado at the Boulder Theater on September 22nd.
Marc:Fort Collins, Colorado at the Lincoln Center on September 23rd.
Marc:And Toronto, Ontario at the Queen Elizabeth Theater on September 30th and October 1st.
Marc:London, England, and Dublin, Ireland.
Marc:I'll be coming to you in October.
Marc:And as I mentioned at the beginning of the show, I have new dates for November and December in Oklahoma City, Dallas, San Antonio, Houston, Eugene, Oregon, Bend, Oregon, Asheville, North Carolina, and Nashville, Tennessee.
Marc:Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all dates and ticket info.
Marc:Here's some guitar, same as the old guitar.
Thank you.
Bye.
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey in the Fonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.