Episode 1356 - Patton Oswalt
Marc:Lock the gates!
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuck nicks?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:How is it?
Marc:How is it for you?
Marc:How's the heat?
Marc:Huh?
Marc:How is the heat?
Marc:I'm just hanging out drinking liquid deaths.
Marc:Not a sponsor right now, but I have a lot of them and spending some time on my 95 degree porch watching my yard die because I'm trying to conserve.
Marc:I'm trying to conserve water.
Marc:I guess if I was real righteous, I would just dig the whole fucking thing up and stick a few cactuses in there.
Marc:But I'm just slowly watching it die as as I am watching the rest of California die.
Marc:I guess we'll know we're in real trouble when they can't grow fucking almonds anymore.
Marc:The day you hear like there's an almond shortage, it's going to be the day it's too late to get out of California without being stuck in fucking Mad Max traffic.
Marc:I had 23 years sober day before yesterday, August 9th, 23 years.
Marc:They kind of it's not so much that they're flying by, but they become not even less significant, but less important.
Marc:It's just my life.
Marc:My life is sober.
Marc:I mean, recovered, yes.
Marc:Do I get dry?
Marc:Do I get cranky?
Marc:Do I get irritable?
Marc:Is it better, really, mentally than it was when I was drinking?
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:Do I still find things to beat the shit out of myself about or feel ashamed of?
Marc:And do I still make mistakes?
Marc:Of course.
Marc:But I know one of them is not waking up saying, what the fuck did I do last night?
Marc:Why didn't I sleep at all?
Marc:How come my sweat smells funny?
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:When was the last time I ate?
Marc:I'd like a little more of that, actually.
Marc:But quality of life, much better, much different.
Marc:I can't even imagine it anymore.
Marc:And that's the real gift of it.
Marc:The obsession to drink or use drugs left me a long time ago.
Marc:That's one of the promises of sobriety.
Marc:If you do it in the way that it's done.
Marc:where you get promises is that the obsession will be lifted.
Marc:And that seems like a very tall order.
Marc:Like how the fuck am I, my entire brain is geared around thinking about drugs and alcohol.
Marc:How am I not going to think about that anymore?
Marc:And then somewhere around five years, it went away totally.
Marc:And I work in bars all the time.
Marc:I don't think about it.
Marc:It's no longer a choice.
Marc:I know in my mind that I can't do it safely, any of it.
Marc:So you find other things.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I mean, I'll plow through some ice cream.
Marc:I'll, you know, I'll get,
Marc:I'll have a week of some maddening masturbatory practices.
Marc:I'll get obsessed with other things.
Marc:But I'm not destroying my life and the life of others and exponentially increasing the odds of my safety becoming compromised by engaging in...
Marc:drinking or drugging.
Marc:And I'm not righteous about it.
Marc:I just know, I don't think I'd be alive if I didn't do it.
Marc:I can't imagine what my life would have been like.
Marc:And it took a while to get sober.
Marc:I was in and out for a long time of trying to stay sober.
Marc:And then it took,
Marc:And I don't think about it anymore.
Marc:And I know that people are like, you know, don't you want to just I don't really need to.
Marc:It's like, you know, once you get away from it and you truly realize in your heart and in your mind that you can't do it safely and that you're going to come around the same bend and end up in the same puddle of pee, you know.
Marc:How many times does that got to happen before you know, before you know in your heart, in your mind?
Marc:Look, man, I've got smaller rings of self-sabotaging behavior that I end up in.
Marc:It's not a puddle of pee, but shame nonetheless.
Marc:But they don't make my life unmanageable.
Marc:They don't cause a tremendous amount of chaos.
Marc:I've been divorced twice in sobriety.
Marc:I've had a lot of bad relationships in sobriety.
Marc:I've experienced sickness and death in sobriety.
Marc:I've gone bankrupt in sobriety.
Marc:But I didn't drink because there's no solution there for me.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I'm grateful to be sober.
Marc:I'm grateful that...
Marc:If my sobriety helps anybody in any way, that's the best thing that I can do.
Marc:I get tons of emails from people all the time.
Marc:It is one of the few.
Marc:I generally will respond to people who ask about sobriety.
Marc:I don't as much as I used to, but there is always help and you can get through it.
Marc:Look, if you don't want to stop drinking, don't.
Marc:If you want to stop drinking but can't, get help.
Marc:It is a better life.
Marc:It is a better life.
Marc:Patton Oswalt's on the show today.
Marc:Look, he's been on before a couple of times, but I'm the only one.
Marc:I think there was a short one, maybe a live one.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It's been over a decade, though, since he's been on.
Marc:If you have the subscription to WTF, to the archives or the full Marin on WTF Plus, you can go back and hear his episodes from the early years of the show.
Marc:He was on episode three, episode 107, episode 144, three.
Marc:That must have been a short one.
Marc:a lot has happened in both of our lives since obviously and it's a good time to have him back on since he has a movie out just came out it's called i love my dad and it's a little cringy but it's uh it's cringy on purpose it's it's a little bit it's uh it's it's quite a movie and he did a good job with it so i first got sober in 1988
Marc:And and I now have 23 years in a row sober.
Marc:So what's that take me?
Marc:88, 98, 2008, 2018, 1920, 21, 22.
Marc:So that took me 34 years to get 23.
Marc:Struggle, I guess, you know, I just was in and out.
Marc:But again, it's possible to not give a shit about drugs or alcohol.
Marc:It's possible to know that you can't do drugs or alcohol safely without fucking up your life or the life of others.
Marc:It's preferable.
Marc:if either of those are a concern for you, whether or not it's possible to not give a shit about drugs and alcohol and whether or not it's possible to live a life without them, you should know that it's preferable and it's possible to not have to do those things.
Marc:I'm just telling you that.
Marc:Life turns out to be quite short.
Marc:And the one thing about...
Marc:doing something you know you have no control over or you don't want to do anymore is that you know it occupies all of your brain and the cycles of abstinence followed by the cycles of uh re-engagement uh just keep happening and they just circle around and it becomes this weird thing where you're like i'm gonna stop not right now i like it again fuck i'm in i'm in pee i'm gonna stop uh
Marc:I like it again.
Marc:I'm okay.
Marc:I can handle it.
Marc:Oh, no.
Marc:I pooped in my pants.
Marc:I'm going to stop.
Marc:Oh, no.
Marc:I'm okay.
Marc:I can just drink.
Marc:Where are you going?
Marc:Don't take the kids.
Marc:I'm going to stop.
Marc:And then all of a sudden, it's like, I'm dying.
Marc:I'm going to stop because I'm dying.
Marc:Where are my kids?
Marc:I'm dying.
Marc:How come I don't have a house?
Marc:Yeah, I mean, jail's institutions are death.
Marc:That's what they say in the racket, in the society.
Marc:But look, I'm just telling you, not being self-righteous, it's possible and it's preferable and it's okay.
Marc:You know, it's just fucking life.
Marc:But there's a lot more to it than fucking circling around that dumpster.
Marc:Do you know what I'm saying?
Marc:Jesus, fuck.
Marc:I can't even imagine it.
Marc:Yeah, so I'm very happy to not be in the world where it's like you can't trust any powder or pill.
Marc:I enjoyed powders.
Marc:And I kind of like, you know, I do get a little envious of the weed, but I even know, I just know that, you know, it's just like when I smoke weed, you don't know when you're high or you're not high anymore.
Marc:You get haunted, you get up in your head.
Marc:I'm already up in my head enough.
Marc:Just grateful to be sober and here to tell you that it's possible.
Marc:That's all.
Marc:You know.
Marc:You know what I'm saying.
Marc:Patton Oswalt has a new movie out, I Love My Dad.
Marc:It is now playing in theaters and you can watch it at home on demand starting tomorrow, August 12th.
Marc:Patton and I go way back.
Marc:I think we've had our problems, but I'm finding that, you know, resentments fade.
Marc:Things level off if you do OK.
Marc:Most of them are still there, but they're sort of they're just they just had a low simmer.
Marc:And some of them have just turned into a general sadness as I watch myself and my peers get older.
Marc:But Patton and I moved to San Francisco at the same time within weeks of each other in the, I guess it would be in the 90s, 92, 93 maybe.
Marc:And him, me, Blaine Kapatch were sort of this strange trio that kind of entered the San Francisco comedy scene when it was sort of beginning to wane.
Marc:So we go back.
Marc:I mean, that's like, what is it, 93, 92?
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Really, 30 years.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:This is me talking to Patton Oswalt.
Marc:I get the baffler for no reason, which is heady stuff.
Guest:Didn't you used to write for them?
Marc:No, I don't think so.
Marc:Did I write one thing for them?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:You know, Thomas Frank started it a million years ago.
Guest:I thought they went full digital because I used to have it digitally on my iPad.
Marc:No, you can get them.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:They send them to me and I try to read them.
Guest:And they're dense.
Guest:Dense.
Guest:It's like why I stopped my New Yorker.
Marc:It's like a book report.
Marc:It's a year of college in every issue.
Guest:It is, yeah.
Guest:I remember Julia Sweeney said, I love the New Yorker, but it's like having a fucking book report every week.
Guest:I know.
Guest:You're right.
Guest:It's exactly what it is.
Marc:It's the pressure.
Guest:And you feel like a shithead if you only read a couple articles and toss it.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I can't do the New Yorker.
Marc:I have it on my phone, but I don't even know why I do it on my phone.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I don't even look at it.
Marc:I can look at the whole issue very small.
Marc:One page at a time with ads.
Guest:The one I can really read is the New York Review of Books because it's so bitchy and it's like this, it's this like portrait of New York that's kind of gone and they're still hanging on to it.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:Where the early 70s, the rock stars were the authors still and they want to keep that going and it's like, guys, it's not happening.
Marc:Yeah, no one cares about Philip Roth anymore.
Guest:God bless you.
Marc:Philip Roth barely cared about Philip Roth towards the end.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Yeah, that whole thing, because I talk to Lipsight all the time, and he came up in that, in that whole, the literary swagger.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Well, it's gone.
Marc:Well, no, I mean- And his old man, who was a New York Times sports writer, but also a novelist, and saw himself as-
Marc:As one of those guys.
Guest:Out of that generation.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:He's best friends with Jules Pfeiffer.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:They hang around down on Shelter Island.
Marc:Of course they do.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And they're all just sitting around wondering what happened.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't do enough reading.
Marc:I'm trying to get back into it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Do you?
Guest:I do a lot of reading.
Guest:You do, right?
Guest:Yeah, man.
Guest:For a long time, I stopped because I got-
Guest:We were all wrapped up in my brilliant fucking career.
Guest:Now you need to enjoy other parts of your life besides your dumb career.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:But I mean, but you've got a wife that, you know, does not necessarily, she seems high energy and engaged.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And you have a daughter who is what now?
Marc:13.
Marc:13.
Marc:So where the fuck do you find time to read?
Marc:I don't have either of those things and I, I barely manage it.
Guest:I have, because there are programmed downtimes in my world, if I'm on a plane, that's a chunk of time.
Marc:You don't watch a movie again for the fourth time?
Guest:No, I don't know.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:I'm a little spoiled because I have a small screening room in my house.
Guest:That's not a brag.
Guest:The house came with it.
Guest:And so now it's hard for me to watch things on my iPad now.
Guest:I want the experience.
Marc:See, wait, you can take the screening room on the plane?
Guest:It's weird.
Guest:It counts as three bags, but I can't pay that.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:It's so expensive.
Marc:You can break it apart.
Marc:It comes in three pieces.
Marc:I get two seats in first class, and I have a screening room.
Guest:You mentioned Jules Pfeiffer.
Guest:I found some old quote by him that I wrote down.
Guest:It was so brilliant.
Guest:He goes, I got my dad's opinions, looks, and temperament, and I got my mom's contempt for my father.
Guest:That's what he is.
Guest:I was like, that's exactly what I am.
Guest:Your folks are still alive, right?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Although, yeah.
Guest:I mean, they're alive.
Guest:It's a yes or no, I think.
Guest:I don't know how present one of them is going to be in the near future.
Marc:Me neither.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:My dad's got the dementia.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He just started.
Guest:We're all pretty excited.
Guest:My mom is in the early part of it, which means she's in complete violent denial.
Marc:Sure, but what is it, like the day of shit that gets a little vague?
Marc:Because my dad, I got a whole envelope of pictures from his past that I must have gotten from his relatives, like college pictures, adolescent pictures when he was a kid.
Marc:He remembered everything.
Marc:He remembered his dog's name from when he was a kid.
Marc:When you showed him the pictures?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Well, if you play people like music from their youth, they will relock onto those memories.
Guest:But then it's the dealing with the day-to-day.
Guest:Right.
Marc:What did we do yesterday?
Marc:He doesn't remember a movie he saw that day.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because there's so much chaff in the air now.
Marc:And it all kind of blends together.
Marc:I think it is.
Marc:I don't know what causes it.
Marc:I don't know why that generation of people seems to be getting it.
Marc:It doesn't seem to be like, well, they just didn't have a name for it.
Marc:I think something is causing it.
Guest:I don't want to speculate.
Guest:What if it's a defense mechanism for something that we can't see or feel yet that's coming?
Guest:The way that a herd will unconsciously react to something that hasn't quite come yet?
Guest:Is that your idea?
Guest:I just thought of it right now, but what if it's a weird defense mechanism?
Marc:That the octogenarians are preparing somehow?
Marc:I think it is.
Marc:It's a defense mechanism against knowing they're going to die.
Marc:Well, that, yeah.
Guest:But then also that they're going to, even if they do live, it might be a world not worth living in.
Marc:Well, you don't need a defense mechanism to...
Marc:Take a genius.
Marc:You can do that at any age now.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Well, I mean, that's why I think so many people live online.
Guest:It's weirdly comforting just to go, well, of course I don't go out.
Guest:The world sucks.
Guest:Look at the TV.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I sit there and I just watch my lawn die.
Marc:I just, you know, it's like we can only water twice a week.
Marc:All I'm doing is I just live in constant panic of water.
Marc:Well, yeah.
Marc:Because no one's talking about it.
Marc:How many pictures of a half-empty Lake Mead do we have to see before it's sort of like, I don't think they're going to tell us, guys.
Marc:I'm glad I have all the liquid death.
Guest:Michael Bury, the guy in the big short, Christian Bale.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:The weird on the spectrum guy that saw...
Guest:He could see in numbers all that $900 million he made on shorting, he has spent it all to own water rights because he knows what's coming.
Guest:Really?
Guest:He's just looking at numbers and like, yeah, there's going to be no water.
Guest:So he's buying them in different states that have water?
Guest:And countries.
Guest:How does that work?
Guest:And countries?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I think you can own the land where an aquifer is or you can own the land where a glacier is.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:Again, here's the other thing.
Guest:I don't know any- Me neither.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I have no idea.
Guest:Like Bitcoin, I don't know.
Marc:You've got big ideas, though.
Marc:You've got big ideas.
Guest:I have, well, I have big theories, but as far as implementing them.
Marc:Like my reaction- No Bitcoin for you?
Marc:You seem like a guy that's- And you know what?
Marc:It seems almost comic book-like to me.
Guest:And I-
Marc:It seems like something you would know a lot about.
Guest:Yeah, except it's all villains.
Guest:There's no actual heroes jumping in with the Bitcoin.
Guest:It's all scumbags.
Guest:Right.
Guest:As I said on Curb Your Enthusiasm, it's all nerds and Nazis.
Guest:I'm not putting your money in there.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:It is all nerds and Nazis, and there's a lot of crossover.
Marc:Oh, boy.
Marc:That's the amazing thing.
Marc:Boy, did we find that out.
Marc:That Steve Bannon pulled off is he really got those gamers involved in a very exciting game called Nazism Manifested.
Guest:Yeah, it is.
Guest:It's a LARP.
Guest:It's a big RPG for these people.
Marc:A lot of them don't leave their houses.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But just the idea that so many people that were originally into comic books or science fiction, we assumed, well, they're in touch with the underdog or the outsider, the people on the fringes.
Guest:And you realize, oh, no, nobody bullies harder than the formerly bullied.
Guest:And once they became, we own the culture now, they became the new bullies.
Marc:There's something.
Marc:Very creepy.
Marc:I don't understand when I see them, when I see, like, the Steven Crowders of the world or some of these other guys that are running around with microphones at CPAC.
Marc:And it's just sort of like, I can't even identify them from my past.
Marc:Like, I don't know who those kids were.
Guest:Yeah, I don't remember anyone like that in comedy coming up.
Guest:I don't remember.
Guest:Well, no.
Marc:I mean, Crowder thinks he's some sort of comedian.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But they're just...
Marc:It's I don't know if they're conscious propagandists, but they just are talking point spewers and they just seem to have this very specific point of view that seems to lack any sort of tolerance or empathy or or even sort of understanding.
Marc:But my fear is that maybe they do have understanding.
Marc:Maybe they do know exactly what they're gunning for.
Guest:Well, but maybe they, I think they understand that on a surface level, but they don't understand what's going on unconsciously.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And what's going on unconsciously is- I want cock.
Guest:Well, I mean, come on.
Guest:But with all bad comedians- Uh-huh.
Guest:Hacks don't like variables and every crowd is its own thing and you got to either make it work.
Guest:They're the parallel with the kids in college who just studied for the test.
Guest:Tell me what I need to know so I can parrot it back and get my A. They don't want to actually interpret what they're learning.
Guest:They're not imaginative.
Guest:And so as comedians are like, I want a crowd where I know the eight things to say to get my eight applause breaks and then I will sell my t-shirts and buttons.
Marc:But they don't seem to be the enemy, those ones.
Marc:They just seem to be the new... That's just sort of ambition manifested through social media platforms, pulling crowds in for shoddy crowd work.
Guest:Yeah, but even some of the people that have really taken advantage of social media, they've taken advantage of social media, and there does seem to be a love of doing comedy.
Guest:I don't think someone like Stephen Crowder loves comedy.
Guest:I think he loves the rewards.
Guest:and well he likes starting shit he's become something other than a comedian oh yeah yeah yeah he's like a pundit of sorts and he's like every bad comedian we remember growing up when we came up that would tell the audience how dangerous they were how brave they were for laughing at this uh edge walker you know they would remember they would it's a new hack dude yeah strap in and welcome to the inside of my mind the only guy that could do that mean it was hicks
Guest:Yeah, exactly, because he actually was walking tables.
Marc:He set the standard.
Marc:I hate that they co-opted the language of what was once a kind of rebel tone of comedy, because there's only been a few guys that do that at any given time.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And by the way, there should only be a few guys.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:If it's everyone, it's not fun.
Marc:No, but there's not many people that just have the balls to do that.
Marc:I mean, it's just like either you're gonna do that because you have no other choice.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The guys that do that weren't like, well, I gave up being a clown.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:Well, you're right.
Guest:Actually, the truly edgy comedians, the ones who really walked out there on the edge like a Hicks, like a Pryor, what really makes them edgy is they don't think they're edgy.
Guest:They're like, I don't understand why people don't think this.
Guest:This is just how I think.
Guest:It wasn't a conscious choice.
Marc:Well, Pryor like is, I think Pryor redefined
Marc:became mainstream.
Marc:I think he was edgy because he turns back on something.
Marc:Hicks was always Hicks.
Marc:Stan Hope has always been Stan Hope.
Marc:I don't know what that guy that you guys came up with, Mark Voice, I got the sense that he was of that tradition.
Guest:He was of that tradition.
Guest:He was from
Guest:Poor, violent, working class Baltimore stock.
Guest:And he had that really angry, didn't have access to education, but read all the time.
Guest:So it was trying to kind of fight it, like trying to get his voice through.
Guest:Had that thick bomber accent, man.
Guest:But I would remember we shared an apartment.
Guest:I came home one night, and he would write his jokes on receipts and keep them in an ashtray.
Guest:Yeah, oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, sure.
Guest:And I picked one up one night, and all it was written on it was, what are old people cooking that stink so much?
Guest:There you go.
Guest:I was like, okay.
Guest:That could have been the hook.
Guest:That could have been the hook, exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Well, I think, yeah, I think that's sometimes what's wired in, but you don't have it.
Marc:What's wired into some people with a certain type of talent is- But I flirted with it, but it wasn't, but it was fake, it was a put on.
Marc:Right, but you've never, like some people are wired, some talented people, it's sort of an unspooling.
Marc:They have the talent and it's in constant competition with them trying to kill themselves.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That's the race.
Marc:It's like, man, I got all this talent.
Marc:I don't know how to manage it, but I also am trying to kill myself.
Guest:Yeah, you know what it is?
Guest:And it's weird when sometimes that butts up against actual acceptance and adulation that they don't know how to handle it.
Guest:You told that great story you saw Hicks.
Guest:You were with Hicks.
Guest:I think it was in New York.
Guest:I'm a poet.
Guest:And then a woman just went, well, then say a poem.
Guest:Tell us a poem.
Guest:Tell us a poem.
Guest:And she really wanted to hear it.
Guest:And then it froze him.
Guest:He didn't know what to do.
Guest:She wasn't like you were angry at him.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:He was something else.
Marc:He was such a solitary character.
Marc:Did you ever spend time with him?
Guest:On the road a few times.
Guest:You did?
Guest:But not like, you know who hung out with him a lot was Blaine.
Guest:I hung out with him a couple times.
Guest:He would call Blaine and they would go hang out.
Guest:That makes sense.
Guest:I remember when he died, all of a sudden, he had 50 best friends.
Guest:Oh, sure.
Guest:And I was like, no.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was very selective.
Guest:We maybe spoke three times.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we worked together three times, and he would be very quiet and do his stuff.
Marc:He was a nice person, but he wasn't like- Reading in his little coat.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I hung out with him in New York, and we played guitar once, and he said,
Marc:I don't usually do this.
Marc:Okay, what?
Marc:You mean talk to people or play guitar with anybody?
Marc:But yeah, he was a character, man.
Marc:He was a character.
Guest:He told me when I was opening for him after I saw him, it was such a revelation, and then midweek I was going out of my way to suddenly put on a Bill Hicks costume and be Bill Hicks.
Guest:What, the all black business?
Guest:Just, well, no, just an attitude, like trying too hard to be dangerous.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I remember that, Patton.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then he, after one of the shows, he just went, Patton, come here, man.
Guest:Yeah, he goes, you got to walk them to the edge.
Guest:Like, you've got to win their trust.
Guest:You're trying to, are you, like, because his act, what people forget about Bill Hicks is the first 20 minutes of his act was just the most hysterical.
Guest:Good joke.
Guest:Accessible, and then he would hit them with the darkness.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Literally jokes about flying on airplanes.
Guest:They were brilliant.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:That one joke, this one simple joke, I always repeat it because it kills me.
Marc:It's like, so we've been going out for a year and a half.
Marc:I guess it's time to ask the big question.
Marc:Why are we still going out?
Guest:I love the airline bit about sitting on the plane, won't take off.
Guest:I hear about these hijackers.
Guest:I'm like, you know what?
Guest:I paid for a ticket.
Guest:It won't take me where I want to go.
Guest:Go ahead.
Guest:Just take it.
Guest:Here, we put a gun to the pilot's head.
Guest:I'm hijacking.
Guest:Where?
Guest:To its scheduled destination.
Guest:Now go.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:He's very smart.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, very smart follow through.
Marc:Oh, God.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And by the way, he was also just a very limber, meat and potatoes, great performer.
Guest:Great faces, great physicality.
Guest:Really pushed it.
Guest:He knew how to sell that stuff.
Marc:Yeah, I think I've just begun doing that.
Guest:Finally?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, there's a lot of things that happened for me finally that, you know, because I was such, I was always at odds with myself and with my audience, really, in my mind.
Marc:But this, like, really within the last week, I'm working this hour and a half, two hours, a chunk.
Marc:That's like because I've had such a long, it's been such a long time between when I shoot the special that got pushed.
Marc:So I've been like really moving some of this stuff, polishing it for like over a year, a year and a half.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:But I'm not sick of it because what's happening is like I know I can do like an hour, an hour and a half, which to me is like an hour and a half, two hours, which is great.
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:It's just one of those dick swinging things like I'm doing two hours.
Marc:But it's good.
Guest:It's solid.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But now I'm like if I have a good audience and they're my audiences and I trust them, like I'll just spread it out.
Marc:I'll time it right.
Marc:I'll physicalize more than usual.
Marc:I'll add a few beats.
Marc:And then I have these pockets where I can just fucking riff and see where I go because I know I'm going to land again.
Guest:And I've got three or four pockets.
Guest:You know what you're doing?
Guest:That's actually kind of brilliant.
Guest:You're doing this thing that drives me crazy, but you're working it into the process.
Guest:After I shot my special, I shot it in May, and this happens all the fucking time.
Guest:You shoot your special, and then the shows you have after your special, you suddenly think of eight better tags.
Guest:Or things you could have dropped out the whole time.
Guest:You're like, oh, this is so...
Guest:I remember talking to Mitch Hedberg about that.
Guest:He goes, nothing's more refreshing when you put something down and you're like, oh, I have eight better versions of this and it's already out there.
Guest:It's gone.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I used to do that on Conan all the time, but it didn't matter because no one was coming to see me and no one gave a shit.
Marc:Because they would call me on a two days notice or a day notice if someone dropped out.
Marc:You got any panel.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:You were in town.
Marc:I was a panel guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So I do all these half-baked bits and no one cares.
Marc:Just work them out?
Marc:Yeah, work them out.
Marc:I knew there was a couple laughs.
Marc:I knew that the idea was funny and I got one beat.
Marc:But they'd eventually become bigger bits.
Marc:But yeah, the benefit of doing this is I know I got to get it down to like 75 minutes.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And so what I'm hoping for, what will be revealed in the next couple months, is a genuine through line.
Marc:And I started improvising some weird kind of this, it's sort of a Patney kind of thing, where somehow I ended up with this George Soros Colossus, who was bigger...
Marc:Like three times as big as the planet Earth.
Marc:And he was just fucking the planet Earth.
Marc:And he had a ship that was hovering beside him, which was the Suros ship.
Marc:And all the famous Jews of history are in the ship that have died.
Marc:And he's going to dispatch Jesus.
Marc:It's up to George.
Guest:What?
Guest:He's like their Odin basically taking him on a chariot over?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:No, but you can get a seat on the ship.
Marc:It was a long thing.
Marc:I don't know why, but it happened right after, what's his name, Orban, the Hungarian fascist.
Marc:When he spoke at the CPAC, is that what it's called?
Marc:The day after, I'm like, it's time to push the surah spit.
Marc:Yes, exactly.
Marc:It was just a riff, and I was sort of like, could this be something that comes back and around?
Guest:A giant closer that somebody animates on YouTube?
Marc:This movie, I Love My Dad, which I watched last night, which is disconcerting.
Marc:It's very- But entertaining.
Marc:And unnerving.
Marc:It's a little unnerving, but it's more sort of like, ooh, okay.
Guest:Yeah, we're going to go there and this how?
Guest:And also the thing that it actually happened to the writer-director.
Guest:And of course, in your mind, well, how much of this- It really happened to him?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:His dad really catfished him because he had cut his dad out of his life.
Guest:They had a very fucked up relationship.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think they've repaired it now, but the father-
Guest:started a facebook profile of a cute girl and would talk to him oh my god and just wanted to talk about their day but then of course james sort of fell in love with this girl and started flirting with her and the father didn't want to lose the connection so kind of half flirted back oh the whole thing dude it's yeah it's uncomfortable it's it's it's a little creepy and it's always good to have little ral howie in there to uh to do the the quick punches
Guest:It should say Little Roe Howery as the audience, because he's basically like, the fuck are you doing?
Guest:Wait, this is incest.
Marc:That's all he is.
Marc:He's always that guy, and it's always hilarious.
Guest:He's great.
Guest:He's so necessary.
Guest:He's so funny.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I love that guy.
Guest:Thank God that he's there.
Guest:He was great, too, on the set.
Guest:No, he's a great guy.
Guest:Hi, Lil.
Guest:How you doing, man?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So happy to see him.
Guest:It's weird, because you were texting me earlier about how this script came around to you like-
Marc:three years ago in 2019 in august i got emails from a director and he just wanted me to be that guy yeah the dad yeah because it made sense but then like my agents within days was sort of like don't read the script looks like the kid wants to who wrote it wants to direct it we don't know where it's at and and now here it is you're the guy
Marc:Yeah, I mean... But then I had to wonder the whole time, like, how would I play?
Marc:It would have been such a different game.
Guest:Oh, it would have been... Again, that's... I love the fact that, like, Big Fan, which was originally a script called Paul Affiero that had made the rounds for 10 years.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Sandler had it.
Guest:Philip Seymour Hoffman had it.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And the guy that wrote it wrote The Wrestler.
Guest:And the money he got for writing The Wrestler... Yeah, yeah.
Guest:um, he used to go make big fans.
Guest:So when it came to me, he's like, here's how we're doing it.
Guest:I'm taking all of my wrestler money.
Guest:And this is the, cause that's the script that got him all this other work.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So he's like, I'm going to fucking shoot this thing.
Guest:Finally, I can't.
Guest:And I just love that spirit so much of like, I'm going to put all my own money into it.
Guest:I mean, that was literally, there were no, my, my dressing room was the back of his car and the sets.
Marc:I like that turn in that movie where you think that you're going to take real action.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I take symbolic action, which in my mind is taking real action.
Marc:Yeah, I like that.
Marc:I thought that was good.
Marc:Okay, so you're in the car with that.
Marc:You're sweeping.
Marc:The dressing room's the van.
Guest:The van.
Guest:And then the scout, location scouting was, does anyone know someone with access to a hospital?
Guest:Because we lost the hospital set today.
Guest:It was literally like that, like day-to-day running gun.
Marc:Yeah, and what was this one?
Marc:I mean, because the kid, he seems like a young kid that wrote and directed it.
Guest:He's a very young kid.
Guest:He acts a lot.
Guest:He used to be a model.
Guest:He directed another film called Three Something that's just as cringey.
Marc:Yeah, that's the word I'm looking for, cringey.
Guest:And a bigger...
Guest:this this hants films got on it and then asked me to produce it and once i came on i think it helped get i mean it was still super low bud yeah the movies that you end up really meaning a lot to you is terms like you never make money off of is that true yeah i'm kind of using the steve buscemi model where i will go and do some big budget stuff and then that gives me the breathing room to go do something that's not going to make me any money but i love the script so much but don't you make a don't you make like truckloads of dough on the tv stuff and the voice stuff
Guest:Yeah, I do.
Guest:I'm not complaining about that.
Guest:I do really want voiceover.
Guest:But what I'm saying is the stuff that is going to end up being very, very personal, don't expect to make a lot of money on.
Marc:Like what else?
Guest:Well, I have a creator-owned comic book that I'm doing now for Dark Horse, which is a story.
Guest:That's a regular gig?
Guest:It's going to be.
Guest:Yeah, it'll start this month.
Guest:So you're going to do the whole story?
Guest:Me and another writer, yeah, but we own it.
Guest:It's ours.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But you don't make a lot of money writing comics.
Guest:No, I thought it was a fortune.
Guest:Well, unless your thing gets developed as something.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:I mean, you know, Neil Gaiman was scraping along for years, and now he's insanely successful.
Marc:I just talked to him.
Marc:He hasn't been scraping not too recently.
Guest:No, not too recently.
Guest:No, no, no, no, no.
Marc:I talked to him.
Marc:I said to him, he was sitting in here a couple weeks ago.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I said to him, I said, if you're going to make more of these with Patton, I said, I want him to make the noise of the bird.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:I want Patton to go, ah!
Marc:Oh, I got to do the squawking?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That was the only flaw.
Marc:I can do it, goddammit.
Marc:I was like, there's Patton.
Marc:I want to hear Patton.
Marc:And Patton would always go, ah!
Marc:Yeah, there you go.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But yeah, I remember when I was at the IFC Awards one year and Steve Buscemi went up for Tree's Lounge.
Guest:The first person he thanked was Michael Bay.
Guest:Because he was like, thank you for them, so I can make my movie.
Marc:Well, you were a producer on this.
Marc:What did that require of you?
Guest:Just coordinating all the different departments and talking to people and making sure that they were- You did that?
Guest:A lot of it.
Guest:Not all of it, but a lot of it.
Marc:It's not just a slate?
Marc:You actually were an active producer?
Marc:Yes, I was an active producer.
Marc:You didn't just say like, I'll do it if you put my name on-
Guest:No, no.
Guest:That's called associate producing, which I'm also a lot on, but this was actually like, hey, this person and this person and, you know, let's get people on.
Guest:So you had your hand in casting and everything?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And also some of the, I mean, I was given all the materials as they would go along.
Guest:Here we're scutting this location, this location.
Guest:Luckily, we had an amazing- Had you done that before?
Guest:Not really, no.
Guest:I mean, I'd seen... It was weird because I did that, and then this year I directed my Netflix special, and that was also me constantly emailing and texting every department.
Marc:This just one you just shot?
Marc:The one I just shot.
Marc:Oh, that's right.
Marc:I saw you tweeting about that.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Well, self-directing yourself, that seems... All right.
Guest:Well, what was weird was you just have to super prepare...
Guest:where you want the cameras to be beforehand, have it in your head, where are you going to be on stage?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Trust the departments to get that.
Guest:And the crew that I had had shot a million specials, so they knew exactly what to do.
Marc:What was the point?
Marc:I mean, it's not like that's not a money thing.
Marc:No.
Marc:You just thought it would be easier?
Marc:Was it more a practicality thing?
Guest:I wanted to get the confidence to go, oh yeah, I can work with a lot of different people and deal with that input and still do my creative work.
Guest:I was always afraid of taking on that role.
Marc:Oh, so you really haven't.
Marc:You didn't direct any AP bios or no King and Queens?
Guest:I was shadowing some of the directors and then the show didn't get, well, then we got shut down for COVID and then the show didn't get picked up.
Guest:Well, no, even worse.
Guest:I was shadowing some of the directors and then when the show came back after COVID, they were like, we can only have minimal, you can't shadow people right now because we can only have minimal people.
Guest:And then the show didn't get picked up.
Guest:But on whatever future show I'm going to do, I'm going to ask to shadow.
Guest:Right now, I just haven't had the time.
Marc:But I mean, how much do you have to shadow?
Marc:You've been on TV sets for 200 episodes of things.
Guest:Yeah, but those were like ABC and X camera shows.
Guest:This is a single camera.
Marc:Oh, you like that stuff.
Marc:There's something about three cameras that's kind of fun, though.
Guest:If I could get a three, it's the best job in the world.
Guest:You go in Monday morning.
Guest:You're done at 10.
Guest:You do a producer's run through.
Guest:You do a blocking run through.
Guest:You tape it on Friday.
Guest:You don't go until three or four.
Guest:The best life.
Marc:But like the single camera.
Marc:Well, you were on Veep for a while.
Marc:That was single camera.
Guest:That was single camera in Baltimore and D.C.
Marc:But that's a lot of running around.
Marc:They had two cameras.
Marc:They just call it single camera.
Marc:They must have two or three cameras here and there.
Guest:For the most part, it was one.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Because they like that documentary field.
Guest:They don't want coverage.
Guest:There was no overs?
Guest:No, they want the we're catching stuff as it's happening.
Guest:Yeah, I get it.
Guest:That was the style at the time.
Guest:But you haven't written a movie?
Guest:Oh, I've written plenty of movies.
Guest:They just haven't been made.
Guest:But are you still like a doctor?
Guest:You still get shit?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I was just, yes, I was actually doing some doctoring on something that I can't talk about of, you know, rewriting scenes.
Guest:And luckily now they've realized, give the doctor the script early before you start shooting so that it's not, you haven't sunk $80 million into the order it's already in.
Guest:So if I suggest, hey, this scene should actually happen.
Marc:Like who are the directors that use you for that stuff generally?
Guest:I don't want to say, because it's usually not the directors.
Guest:It's usually the studio insisting the director does a doctoring pass so that they can feel better.
Guest:And a lot of times, because these directors are my friend, I'm there secretly to just go, hey, leave it the way it is.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because I want to protect-
Guest:to protect their vision.
Marc:You've never gotten into one of those situations where you do a pass and then have to fight for credit of the film with the guild.
Guest:The stuff that I have done a pass on, I was more than happy not to have a credit on.
Guest:In fact,
Guest:One movie that I did a pass on, Brian Posehn and I did a pass on a movie and a bunch of other writers did too.
Guest:And the original script was horrible.
Guest:Like the guy was paid for it.
Guest:And then he, the original writer fought, like went to the WGA and went, it's only my name.
Guest:And then none of us contested it.
Guest:We're like, go right ahead.
Guest:And then he got paranoid.
Guest:Like, why is nobody protesting this?
Guest:Why does no one want their name in this?
Guest:Like, well, it's your movie.
Guest:And by the way, the movie that got made didn't have a word of his shit in it.
Guest:bad.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I didn't want our names.
Guest:We're like, can you just, we don't need to contest anything.
Guest:We can't name this movie?
Guest:No, I just, I don't want to be mean.
Guest:I'll tell you off, I'll tell you off camera and there's a weird little side thing to it, but I just don't want to, I don't want to be, because here's the thing too, and you know this.
Guest:It all comes back.
Guest:I got a big mouth.
Guest:You have been in enough movies to go, even a movie that ends up sucking, everyone busted their asses.
Guest:They tried to make it good.
Guest:I know.
Marc:It just doesn't work sometimes.
Marc:Well, I haven't been in as many movies.
Marc:I know that's true, and I know that's true from talking to people, but I also know that in the racket of acting or whatever, these guys sometimes know going in.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And you must do that at this point, that the choice is really sort of like, how many weeks is it?
Marc:Where?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where are we shooting?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:On a cruise ship.
Guest:All right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Something like that.
Marc:I'll do that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:For me, I get offered stuff.
Marc:I'm not an actor.
Marc:I don't want to be in Egypt for six months.
Marc:I can't even imagine it.
Guest:Well, you don't want to be either in Egypt or in Shreveport in a warehouse in front of a green blanket with a tennis ball in front of you.
Guest:That's his mouth.
Guest:Talk to him there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No.
Marc:I've never done any of that green screen shit.
Marc:Have you?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Have you ever done special effects stuff?
Marc:Not really.
Marc:I've done a little bit of it.
Marc:I've only been animated.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Voice over is great.
Marc:Didn't you write that bit for Stiller on the Oscars?
Guest:Was that you?
Guest:In the green suit?
Guest:That wasn't me.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I wrote a thing for him for the movie awards where Will Ferrell plays his acceptance speech coach.
Guest:Where he comes out and he goes, this speech is bullshit.
Guest:We're about gratitude, not attitude, Ben.
Guest:That thing in the green suit was too funny.
Guest:Yeah, it was really good.
Guest:And that's what so many actors have to deal with now.
Marc:Because he's so funny with physical comedy.
Marc:I mean, he's very gifted in that thing that he doesn't do anymore.
Guest:Well, because he's become such a fucking great director.
Marc:I know, yeah.
Guest:I don't think he's hungry to be in front of the camera.
Marc:He didn't get locked into being a fucking screwball his whole life.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:That doesn't age well.
Marc:I can name three other dudes.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Two.
Marc:One.
Guest:But yeah, there's a certain age where you're like, yeah, you can't be doing this.
Marc:No, and you can't try to make it happen anymore.
Marc:Who the fuck knows what's funny?
Marc:It's so rare to see something funny.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, especially now, comedy isn't such a weird... I don't know what's happening, dude.
Guest:But comedy always goes through these cycles of... Is that true?
Guest:Like what kind of cycle?
Guest:You remember us back in the early 90s in San Francisco, there was all this shit about, you know, that was the birth of Politically Correct.
Guest:Was it?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And there was... Stuff was changing, and there was the old guard.
Guest:And just like there was the old guard that was angry about... You mean the old guard being just Bobby Swyton?
What?
Yeah.
Guest:He's still, I loved working with him.
Guest:I love him.
Guest:He was such a sweetheart.
Guest:He is a sweetheart.
Guest:And would destroy audiences.
Guest:Like, just destroy them.
Guest:Sometimes.
Marc:I mean, I think that it was an indicator of the time you were talking about when he would do the punch and it was not so destroy-y.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:There was a point where people were like, no.
Guest:But stuff always, comedy can't stay the fucking same.
Guest:And nothing can.
Guest:Because if it does, then it dies.
Guest:It has to mutate.
Guest:Yeah, the evolution of language is one thing.
Guest:And there will be a time when you and I won't matter anymore.
Guest:And that's fine.
Guest:Like you do your time.
Marc:It happened two years ago for you.
Marc:And it's just starting to happen for me.
Guest:I just want to walk away into the dust like John Wayne at the end of The Searchers.
Guest:I did my part.
Guest:I'm done.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:With no one watching the movie.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:What's that guy doing?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:A scene of some kind.
Marc:Just walking to the desert.
Guest:Hey, dude, close the door.
Guest:I don't need to see.
Guest:Hey.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:Shut the door.
Guest:Fucking up the shot.
Guest:Moron.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, there's also there's.
Guest:There's 7 billion people on the planet.
Guest:We can't entertain all of them.
Guest:Dude, I can't entertain.
Marc:I've grown to accept, though I will judge myself against you, because I know you do amazingly well in some cities, and then just like me in some cities, it's sort of like, no, 600's good.
Guest:Exactly, yeah.
Guest:Oh, no, dude, hey, there's plenty of cities I've gone to where I'll get that seating chart the day before from the tour.
Guest:Where are the tickets?
Guest:Oh, wow.
Marc:And then they go, no, it'll look fine.
Marc:They'll just darken the balcony.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I've been there for soundcheck where they're hanging the curtains in front of the two balconies.
Guest:You're like, okay.
Marc:I don't even care anymore.
Marc:It's weird.
Marc:Because it really... Because it's not going to be... We're not going to... It's not going to be sparse.
Marc:So even if it's the only venue they have in the region and you don't sell out the balcony but you still sell 500 tickets... I'm good.
Guest:It's great.
Guest:That's... Look...
Guest:The thing I've always said, in 1993 was the first year that I could just do stand-up.
Guest:I made 11 grand that year, but it was enough to pay my rent and make me not have to have a day job.
Guest:And to me, that was like, I fucking made it.
Guest:All I got to do is do stand-up.
Marc:I just remember having $800 in the bank.
Marc:I couldn't believe it.
Marc:I was like, this is amazing.
Guest:What am I going to do with this shit?
Guest:$800 in the bank.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I would remember rolling nickels, literally doing nickel rolls to get the $2 to go down to the toy boat and afford a cup of coffee.
Guest:And I don't want to sound like some fucking Damon Runyon thing, but that was a big deal when I had accumulated enough nickels to put in a $2 roll.
Guest:I'm like, this will get me a coffee and free refills for the day.
Guest:I'm set.
Marc:Where was that place?
Guest:Remember at the corner of Fifth and Clement, the toy boat?
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Caddy corner from the zoo.
Guest:Sure, sure, from the zoo, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But you guys lived over there, right?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Brian and I lived right there.
Guest:With Short?
Guest:No, with Blaine.
Guest:It was you guys and Blaine.
Marc:Because I was living in the Mission.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:I remember I went down to- You laid at my house on Fell Street.
Marc:I moved to Fell Street with Kim on the Panhandle.
Guest:And you lived in, it was a nice neighborhood, but it still had a sense of sketch to it.
Guest:Where you were living is so- On the Panhandle.
Guest:Yeah, beyond affordable now.
Marc:It's like with a few blocks from DeViz.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:From the Western Edition.
Marc:Was that what it's called?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But in talking about that stuff, because I'm trying to figure out
Marc:what is really happening with comedy because there's so many things that were not there when we were starting out.
Marc:It was one thing when politically correct things started happening, but that was the nature of San Francisco.
Marc:But San Francisco was also the most embracing place where you couldn't do, you and I couldn't have really continued to come up anywhere else.
Guest:No.
Guest:I hit a wall where I was.
Guest:I hit a wall back in D.C., definitely.
Marc:They were always so, it was an embracing, they wanted to see you take chances, and they wanted things to be weird.
Guest:Yeah, but I think the other thing that a lot of comedians that are coming up now are missing that we had is they don't have their time in the wilderness that we had.
Guest:Everything is being filmed now, and a lot of them are unwisely.
Guest:And by the way, I wouldn't be any different if I was 18.
Guest:If I had access to Instagrams, I'd be posting my shit like an idiot.
Marc:time but you'd be but there's an entitlement to it because they they know that's the game yes the idea is not to be hicks it's not to be a great headliner no it's like you know how many of these fucking crowd work tiktoks can i get out a point to get uh 200 people into a club right but but what i'm saying is their whatever their thing that they break guys listen to us whatever they these fucking kids just be honest
Guest:I had to record my first album on a wax cylinder.
Guest:When I was coming up, I had so many influences.
Guest:You were a massive influence on me.
Guest:Blaine was a massive influence.
Guest:There were times when I didn't have my voice.
Guest:I had a version of you, then a version of Blaine, then a version of Proops, because I was forming myself.
Marc:Yeah, a little Weinhold.
Guest:It was, yeah.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:I was, yes, Weinhold.
Guest:And it took me, but nobody was filming me, so I had my- I hit him Weinhold.
Guest:But now there's these people coming up that they are just, I see what Joe Rogan's doing.
Guest:I want to do that.
Guest:What is he doing?
Guest:Well, I-
Marc:No, I know what you mean.
Marc:They want to be part of it.
Marc:I don't think anybody looks at Joe Rogan and says, I want to emulate his comedy.
Marc:I couldn't even identify what that would be.
Guest:I've always said about Joe, what's so ironic and kind of beautiful about him is Joe Rogan is doing what people like you and I were always saying people should do.
Guest:Push the boundaries, experiment with drugs, question reality.
Guest:The only thing that went wrong with him was someone gave him $200 million.
Guest:That's where he went nuts.
Guest:If I had a podcast about knitting and someone gave me $200 million, I would fuck yarn on my podcast.
Guest:I would have gone nuts.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:You would knit it into- Into a swastika.
Marc:Some sort of, yeah.
Marc:New libertarian flag.
Marc:You would invite the troops.
Marc:You'd leave.
Guest:But yeah, all my time in the wilderness before I could figure out, and there's still times when I- I remember I worked with you a few weeks ago at the comedy store and your stuff was like, oh shit, I'm going to start talking like him for a goddamn week again.
Guest:I get that a little bit.
Marc:That happens to me sometimes.
Marc:But it's not the angry guys anymore.
Marc:Sometimes I'll find a little Bargatze infusion.
Marc:Just get the weird pace of Nate occasionally.
Marc:And every once in a while, a gaffigan will slip in.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, there's something so defiant, especially with all of the anger when you're someone like a Nate or a Jim and you're talking about the goofiest shit.
Guest:There's something kind of defiant about, oh, no, no, I'm going to talk for 20 minutes about toaster pastries and it's going to be brilliant.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:In the face of everything that's going on around us.
Marc:You learn how to have a fun time.
Marc:You learn how to have a good time.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:I'm actually amusing myself.
Marc:But it's weird.
Marc:Do you really look at yourself, though?
Marc:Do you look at old videos of yourself and not see you?
Marc:Because I look at stuff of me in 89, and I see me.
Guest:No, I see parts of me, but I also see me dealing with my influences.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:And I've never understood these people that try to hide their influences.
Guest:Like, no one bursts out of the forehead of Zeus fully formed.
Guest:Nobody?
Guest:Is that true?
Guest:That's true.
Guest:It's fine.
Marc:You can influence yourself.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:There was an army of Attels in New York when I was there.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Attel was another huge.
Guest:There's times when there's old bits I watch.
Guest:I'm like, oh, fuck.
Guest:That's his rhythm.
Guest:Attel.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We text each other all the time because I'll come up with something.
Guest:I'm like, do you do anything like this?
Guest:Because this sounds like you.
Marc:No, he'll text me.
Marc:I asked him about the Angel Factory.
Marc:I asked you too.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:In fact, I even said, the only one that could come close would be a tell.
Guest:So text him right now.
Marc:He's like, no.
Marc:I get texts from him in the middle.
Marc:He hardly ever texts me.
Marc:Then he's just going, do you do a thing about jerking off in the Bible?
Marc:No.
Marc:You can have that one.
Guest:God, that's a good adult.
Guest:Hey, Maren, do you?
Guest:But so if you're not, if you're in this weird, I'm not saying that you're in some kind of Twilight Zone, you clearly still like doing standup, but you also are in- It's the best right now.
Guest:It is.
Guest:Why is it the best?
Marc:I just recommitted somehow, you know, after Lynn died and after the COVID.
Marc:Like, you know, during COVID, I'm like, I don't know if I even need to do it anymore.
Marc:My thought was a weird thought process.
Marc:It was just sort of like, maybe I'm all better.
Marc:Maybe I fixed it.
Marc:Yeah, maybe I don't need this shit.
Marc:But once I started doing it again, because I had to, you know, get an hour together for the New York Comedy Festival, which, you know, I work on incentives.
Marc:So, like, if I have something, then something else.
Marc:I never know where I'm going to get an hour.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:But for some reason, this time, I'm just like,
Marc:I'm fucking just going out, dude.
Marc:If you got a brainwave going, just enjoy it.
Marc:Yeah, well, I don't think I ever knew how to do that.
Marc:And I think that when I started doing theaters, I knew that I wasn't afraid anymore.
Marc:But I don't know that I've really been... And I think I'm probably a little indulgent, but fuck it, man.
Marc:I'm 58.
Marc:Do it now.
Marc:Yeah, do what you want.
Guest:And also, I'm not like... Is anyone complaining that they're getting two hours from you?
Guest:No.
Marc:But it's just weird because having been...
Marc:being a comic that's never been huge.
Marc:Like, there's none of that.
Marc:Like, because I see a lot of guys that have been, you know, at a certain level forever.
Marc:And there's part of me that's like, enough.
Marc:You put it away.
Marc:You know, you've proved your point.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Stripped out.
Marc:Well, yeah, but like, you know, some of these boomers got to get out of the way.
Marc:But look, I have to let that go because I have a good audience and I'm doing the best work I've done.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Right?
Guest:The stuff that you're the most excited to do in a really... Sure.
Guest:It's got to feel great.
Marc:It's just like, well, I can see the growth in it.
Marc:I feel like I've landed where I am.
Marc:I'm not stuck somewhere.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:It's all part of an evolution.
Marc:You push through.
Marc:That's got to feel great.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But it's a limited people.
Marc:They're my audience, but it's not like... I couldn't do an arena.
Marc:You wouldn't want to.
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:But there's part of me that's like, why isn't my appeal broader?
Guest:Well, but a lot of people that are in an arena, and this is not to put down arena comics, a lot of people are there because they want to be with the biggest crowd that's there.
Guest:Historic.
Guest:But there's nothing that, there's a lot of times when you'll see an audience tweeting about an arena comedian they just saw, and what's weird is they're never tweeting about any bits that really blur.
Guest:blew them away or blasted through them.
Guest:They're just like, it was just, I mean, you know, the PC police were shitting their pants.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What did he say?
Guest:Just, you know, it was just like, Oh, it just, there's nothing there.
Marc:You know, it's a, it's a happening.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah, I get it.
Guest:I remember seeing big, huge bands in arenas, and I can't quite remember.
Guest:Terrible.
Guest:But then I remember seeing bands in smaller rooms.
Guest:I can remember every fucking second of it.
Guest:I was at the Viper Room one night, and PJ Harvey came in unannounced and did songs from the city, songs from the sea, just kind of rough, hadn't come out yet.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I remember literally, she was so...
Guest:fucking amazing in this tiny room that wasn't even filled.
Guest:She was just like, I'm just working this stuff out.
Guest:Everybody was connected to her.
Marc:There's got to be someone saying that about one of my sets at Boston Comedy Company on 3rd Street Manhattan when it was nine scattered people.
Guest:Yeah, but
Guest:I've had those nights where I'd be at the UCB or something, but I came off stage so energized.
Guest:Everything connected, and I know that there would be an arena-level comic that would go, that was horrible, only because the numbers weren't huge.
Guest:I guess so.
Guest:But didn't you feel the connection in that room?
Guest:It was amazing.
Marc:I think most of the people we know that can actually do arenas still do club work.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:To work it out.
Marc:And I do know that feeling.
Marc:But what I feel is like you have to appreciate yourself in that moment because you realize that's never going to happen again.
Marc:I don't know where that came from.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I can't recapture that.
Marc:No.
Marc:And then you try to.
Marc:It's like because things get delivered on stage.
Marc:You're like, oh, I'm going to add that in.
Marc:It never works.
Marc:It never works.
Guest:Oh, that drives me fucking crazy when something works one night.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, you do the exact same wording, exact same inflection.
Guest:And not only does it not work again.
Guest:It never works again.
Guest:I know.
Guest:What was going on that night?
Guest:It takes you a year to stop doing it, though.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Guest:You keep hammering.
Guest:Oh, wait, that was just that one night.
Guest:Yeah, you can't get it back.
Guest:What comic books do you read every month?
Guest:There's a lot of really interesting...
Guest:smaller publishers now that are giving people... And what's amazing is a lot of really big writers that can't get something sold as a TV show or a movie, they'll sell it as a comic book because they own it.
Guest:And it's like getting free storyboards for your work.
Guest:Oh, that's interesting.
Guest:For instance, there's a company called Aftershock Comics, and they did this amazing... You would love this.
Guest:It's a title called Maniac of New York.
Guest:And basically, it's... Imagine Jason Voorhees from Friday the 13th.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's a guy named...
Guest:like murder Harry or something.
Guest:He's like a Jason type.
Guest:Pops up in New Year's Eve, 85, murders 12 people.
Guest:The police shoot him.
Guest:He doesn't die.
Guest:He vanishes.
Guest:And now, every few years or every few months, he pops up in New York and murders some people.
Guest:And the city of New York just...
Guest:adjusted to him yeah it's like well there's a man don't give him any more attention well no it's just like we we lose a few people every year and think of the people we lose to gun violence everyone's like well am i not going to live in new york this is where i'm making all my money right and the city has adjusted to an unkillable maniac which is what would happen and then there's a new people like just that some of the concepts are so brilliant yeah you know it's just there's so much stuff out
Guest:And there's another guy named Charles Sewell that does big-ticket stuff for Marvel, Star Wars and X-Men, and then he'll go and sell a little book.
Guest:He does one now called Eight Billion Genies.
Guest:And one day on Earth, everyone wakes up, everyone has their own genie that will grant them one wish.
Guest:And then you see the effects on the Earth of every person getting one whatever the fuck they want to have happen.
Marc:Does it come through their phone?
Guest:They just float next to them, and they're there until you make your wish, and then they disappear.
Guest:Really?
Guest:But suddenly, like, you know, the Empire State Building is made of mac and cheese because someone's crazy.
Guest:I want it to be made of mac.
Guest:And there's suddenly superheroes everywhere.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then, like, 900,000 people all win the lottery.
Marc:Oh, that's funny.
Guest:But then a lot of shit starts canceling itself out.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then it's just amazing.
Guest:Oh, that's funny.
Guest:It's clever.
Guest:So it's just all these really cool concepts now.
Guest:What's your comic about?
Guest:It's called Minor Threats, and it's about a group of blue-collar level supervillains.
Guest:I just knock over a bank.
Guest:I've got some small powers.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And a major, major supervillain, like Joker level.
Marc:I saw a picture of that guy.
Marc:You tweeted it or something.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:What was the name of the guy?
Guest:Oh, the stick man.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:He's a major supervillain, kills a major superhero.
Guest:I know all the big A-list superheroes are cracking down on the city.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the low-level guys are like, I just want to fucking rob a... What the fuck is this?
Guest:Fucked it up for everybody.
Guest:Yeah, well, they're hunting the big supervillain to hand him over to the heroes to go, we can get some credit in the favor bank and they might leave.
Guest:Politics.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Interesting.
Guest:It's our riff on M in a way like this fucking guy is ... Because he's not doing it to make money.
Guest:He's just a crazy super villain.
Guest:We're not in this for the art aspect of it.
Guest:We're not trying to be Warhol here.
Guest:I would like to rob a bank and get some fucking money, you asshole.
Guest:It's about all those tensions.
Guest:It's really fun.
Marc:Are you on TV now?
Guest:I'm on The Sandman.
Guest:No, I saw that.
Guest:Oh, The Sandman.
Guest:I'm on, you can still watch On Starz, Gaslit.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And then I'm shooting a new series for Apple Plus.
Guest:What is that?
Guest:It's called Manhunt, and it's about the hunt for John Wilkes Booth, the 12-day hunt.
Guest:You get to wear costumes?
Guest:And I get massive beard, gun, sword, all that.
Guest:I play Lafayette Baker, who was the chief of New York police, who was in charge of the hunt, but was also quietly like, how can I make money off of this?
Guest:Well, that's a big reward.
Guest:If I assign my dumb cousin to this- Well, that's a big role, huh?
Guest:It's pretty interesting, yeah.
Guest:I mean, it's a huge, sprawling cast.
Guest:It's not just me.
Guest:It's everybody.
Guest:It's huge.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:And you didn't realize, I didn't realize this until I read the book that it's based on.
Guest:I thought John Wilkes Booth shot Lincoln and then they captured him.
Guest:And they did and they killed him.
Guest:But for those 12 days, he was trying to get back to the Confederacy and go, I've killed Lincoln, let's restart the war.
Guest:And they would have restarted it.
Guest:And it wasn't just Lincoln.
Guest:That's a conspiracy?
Guest:Yeah, it was a planned thing.
Guest:And it was like a storming, same thing, storming of the Capitol.
Guest:So to just start the war.
Guest:To restart the war and usurp the United States for the South.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:It was crazy.
Guest:Well, that seems prescient.
Guest:Is that the word?
Guest:Very prescient.
Guest:And John Wilkes Booth was a massively famous and successful actor.
Guest:Extremely good looking, extremely beloved.
Guest:Really?
Guest:But just love the South, God damn it.
Guest:And this country's going the wrong fucking way.
Guest:And was an acclaimed actor.
Marc:Was somebody in his ear or he decided to do this himself?
Marc:It was just the way he was raised.
Marc:He was raised- No, but I mean like to take the action-
Guest:It was himself, but he had people helping him, people financing him.
Marc:It was a huge- A lot of guys going, it's our guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There are parallels to like, oh, that was the Steve Bannon back then.
Guest:Oh, that was the, okay.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Like all this shit.
Guest:There's the Cox or the Cokes.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So let me ask you, as somebody who-
Marc:has dealt with some more stuff.
Marc:I mean, what was the arc of your grief around Michelle?
Guest:It was interesting, and it was weird, and not that I'm saying this in any kind of grateful way or any kind of sage way, but it was very odd for me to see you.
Guest:I knew what you were going through.
Guest:I knew what the parallels were, and I knew, because I think you remember, I was texting you and contacting you, and then I stopped,
Guest:Because I realize part of this healing process is to now, it's got to be by himself for a while.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And you need to like not so... Right, you need to stop.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Everyone asks like, hey, now I need to process this.
Guest:I need to go lie in the weeds and scream for a while.
Marc:It was easier with COVID.
Guest:I had no choice.
Guest:But I went through that.
Guest:It was weird how you mentioned that, hey, maybe I'm done.
Guest:I was like...
Guest:Maybe comedy isn't what I should be doing right now.
Guest:Because if I go on stage, my wife has died.
Guest:Our daughter is.
Guest:And I felt like if I'm on stage, is that disgusting that I'm still doing jokes?
Guest:I didn't know if I would ever do comedy again.
Guest:Did you ever go through that?
Guest:Like, well, I guess I'm done doing that.
Marc:Well, what I go through and I talk about on stage, because there's about 15 minutes where I really talk about grief specifically in my experience in COVID and also what people tell you and that feeling of you just want to be relieved.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Because when you're in it, you can't really see that it's going to go away.
Marc:But you can see, you know, the one sort of realization you have is like, there's nothing unusual about this.
Marc:It's just my fucking turn.
Marc:And the thing is, is like people die.
Guest:That's a great way to put that.
Marc:Yeah, some people die, you know, and some tragically.
Marc:You hope that doesn't happen to you, but it happens every day.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, and there's no way it doesn't shift you and change you when things happen out of turn.
Marc:But, you know, it's just really dealing with, you know, when do I write a joke?
Marc:When does the funny happen?
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:I couldn't even conceive.
Marc:And can you do it?
Guest:I remember what I needed was, and yes, I also toyed with the idea of, do I do a serious one-man show?
Guest:But I'm like, I don't want that to be my thing.
Guest:You know what got me out of it was I really re-embraced absurdity.
Guest:I was watching Eric Andre and Tim and Eric.
Guest:Oh, interesting.
Guest:Interesting.
Guest:Oh, that's right.
Guest:What I do is actually, this is more helpful than me.
Guest:But then there were times when I went on stage, once I started doing comedy again, I did a few sets where I never mentioned it, and that was even weirder for the audience.
Guest:Because they're like, we know what happens.
Guest:You should address it.
Guest:Even if you just say it once.
Guest:So I had to find a way to address it.
Guest:But then my personal life to get me out of that rut was I would run into comedians who would, in a weird way, they would say, do things that made me laugh.
Guest:Like at one point...
Guest:Like after Michelle passed away, then a friend of mine from back home's husband passed away.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Literally a month.
Guest:And then my friend's sister passed away.
Guest:All like boom, boom, boom.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I was shooting some friends.
Guest:I said, go do a little guest spot on this show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just to give yourself something to do.
Guest:Get out of the house.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was doing a scene with Susie Essman, and she could tell in between takes that I'm just like- Yeah.
Guest:My heart's broken.
Guest:It's horrible.
Guest:And she's like, hey, I know what happened.
Guest:Are you okay?
Guest:I'm like-
Guest:And I was like, well, I'm okay, but Michelle passed away.
Guest:Then literally a month later, there's all these other people dying around me now.
Guest:And I'm like, have I become this avatar of death or something?
Guest:And then she said, sweetie, you're not that important.
Guest:And it made me laugh so fucking hard.
Guest:It brought me out of that shit.
Guest:And it made me, it just was like, oh, that just saved me right now.
Marc:It's so funny.
Marc:I needed that.
Marc:How the comic book brain works against you sometimes.
Marc:exactly is this my new superpower that i got you know what did i get bitten by a radioactive death but that's right that's like that your imagination you know you are fundamentally the the the the center of the orbit and also the narcissism of of course i'm gonna fucking think that yeah yeah yeah all that shit i just that that but i needed that yeah i i don't know yeah my experience was just you know i i just knew
Marc:I was leveled.
Marc:I mean, and the thing is weird is that, you know, obviously you had a child and a longer history with your wife, but the way that it went down was similar in that, you know, I didn't see it coming.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:And, you know, it happened very quickly.
Marc:Could not have been a more normal day.
Marc:Right.
Marc:For you, it was even more, you know, tragic and quick.
Marc:But like, you know, when Lynn got sick, I was like, oh, she'll get better.
Marc:And then all of a sudden it's like, what?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that, like that, the trauma of that is just so fucking...
Marc:horrible and disorienting.
Marc:It's just terrible.
Marc:Because it's like you have control of nothing.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:And you realize, well, that's the truth.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Right?
Guest:Everything else that I have around me, the books I read, the music I listen to, that's just to drown out this very ancient darkness that we're always brushing up against.
Guest:That someone gave us the gift of knowing about.
Guest:Someone reminded me of for some reason.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know if I remember if I sent you, because when the show passed away, Michael Pence sent me A Grief Observed by C.S.
Guest:Lewis.
Guest:No, you did.
Marc:You did.
Marc:You sent it to me.
Marc:It's funny.
Marc:I do a bit about, you know, I just added a joke to the thing where it was like, you know, when somebody dies, depending on how smart your friends are, you'll probably get at least six copies of the Joan Didion book.
Yeah.
Marc:The Year of Magical Thinking.
Marc:And you want help, so you read it.
Marc:Like, I read it, and it's like, all right, her husband died, okay.
Marc:You know, I don't know if it helps me.
Marc:But my problem is, like, I'm a creative person, so now I'm thinking, like, nah, I gotta write a fucking book now, I guess, right?
Guest:Better than that.
Guest:Shit.
Guest:Well, the C.S.
Marc:Lewis- The Greek book I got through.
Marc:Yeah, it's a little heavier.
Marc:It's so slim.
Marc:It's dense, though.
Guest:It's weird.
Guest:It's the slimmest book that took me the longest time to read because he was literally writing it as she was- I can't tell you what it meant.
Guest:The moment.
Guest:And that first sentence, I didn't realize how much grief felt like terror.
Guest:And that put everything into immediate perspective for me.
Guest:It's that what you're talking about.
Guest:This is terrifying.
Guest:I didn't know that I was vulnerable to this.
Guest:It's terrifying.
Guest:And this is one of the greatest writers of the 20th century, not waiting a year till after.
Guest:As his wife is, and he knows he's going to lose her, he's putting every emotion down.
Marc:I think he knew when he married her, didn't he?
Guest:Yes, he knew that she was sick.
Guest:But he wanted to spend whatever time he could with her, which is beautiful.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Beautiful.
Marc:Beautiful.
Marc:Like, I remember taking bits and pieces from that.
Marc:I liked Joan Didion's book because it was really nuts and bolts of like, you know, like, you know, going back to the house after, you know, because I went, dude, I went down there, you know, it was the middle of COVID and the doctor said that he would let me come see her after she's passed.
Marc:I went to the hospital that night and it was, dude, it was like so fucking terrible.
Marc:And I even, like, I'm just trying to figure out, you know, on stage to tell these stories because you start to realize, like, everyone's dealt with this.
Marc:And that's what's evolving when I keep doing this hour is that piece of material to sort of ground it in something genuinely grounded as opposed to me trying to feel better is that six out of fucking ten people
Marc:know what it's like to be on the phone with a loved one in the hospital, with a doctor, with other family members going, what's happening?
Marc:Where are we at?
Marc:And that day is the fucking, it's a common experience.
Marc:It's waiting for everyone.
Guest:And it's scary to think about that.
Marc:Yeah, it's a common experience.
Marc:And I'm trying to sort of frame that stuff like that.
Marc:But I just had Andrew Garfield in here yesterday.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And we were talking about grief, and we both got all fucking choked up.
Marc:Because his mom just passed away, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's been a bit, but sharing grief, it's very human and very simple.
Marc:And it was just sort of like, a lot of times people don't think they can handle it, but sometimes you just need to fucking stand there.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You got to let the wave hit you.
Marc:But people, other people, like, I don't know what to do.
Marc:What do I do if he's just sad?
Marc:It's like, stand there and wait till they're done crying or whatever.
Marc:Right?
Guest:It was, and especially like having a daughter that I had to- Oh, I don't even know it.
Guest:I can't imagine.
Guest:I knew a day before she did because I remember I called her principal that day, and still I can barely talk.
Guest:I'm freaking out.
Guest:And then I was like, I don't know what to do.
Guest:And this principal, God bless her, said...
Guest:don't tell her tonight because you can't tell her and now go to sleep.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Just tomorrow go, hey, let's not go to school.
Guest:Have a daddy daughter day.
Guest:Go do a lot of fun stuff in the morning.
Guest:And then she said, tell her in the sunlight so that she has the rest of the day to process it.
Guest:Oh, fuck.
Guest:It was a nightmare.
Marc:And you didn't sleep.
Guest:I didn't.
Guest:I mean, I basically, when I took her to, she said, tell her in the sunlight and then do whatever she wants to do.
Guest:If she wants to stay out of school for a month, she doesn't go to school for a month.
Guest:And my daughter wanted to go to school that Monday.
Guest:And what I realized was she wanted to, even if it was artificial, create the most normalcy she could.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:So when I took her to school that Monday, I had not slept in four days.
Guest:And I was all but hallucinating as I was bringing her into that school.
Guest:And I just was like, and then I went up.
Guest:I didn't want to leave the school because I was just so, like, I thought everyone.
Guest:So I just, they let me just sit up in an office for the day until it was time to pick her up.
Guest:And I just kind of slept in a chair for a few hours.
Guest:And then when it's three o'clock, I went down and, hey, I'm here to pick, like, try to make, like, let's go do something fun.
Marc:How did you explain that first night?
Marc:Where did you say she was?
Guest:Um...
Guest:Oh, I said, thank God, that was when Michelle was very, very heavily into writing her book.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And there was a lot of times where she would, I'm going up to, she would go to where a lot of the murders were and go, I'm going to be here for a few days working with forensic people and writing.
Guest:And I'm like, hey, mommy just got this big tip.
Guest:She's going to be, she's checked into a hotel, she's writing, we'll see her tomorrow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So luckily I had that thing that had happened a bunch of times, so it didn't feel weird.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was like, oh, okay, great.
Marc:And that was, there was no COVID, so you were surrounded by friends and family.
Guest:Yeah, thank God.
Guest:And again, not to sound maudlin, but being surrounded by comedians when you were going through grief, it could not be more helpful.
Guest:They know...
Guest:how to cry with you and then they know how to go I'll know what to say to make like I remember like a week after Dave Rath was like making sure that I went out and saw people so we went to dinner with Todd Glass oh yeah and Todd Glass we went met at this place called the Mess Hall in Los Feliz and we get there and Todd has a sealed envelope he's like you can open this later and read it if you want you don't need to read it now let's just have a nice dinner so we had this nice dinner you think it's an emotional well I go home
Guest:He opened it up.
Guest:He literally ripped the corner off of a piece of legal paper and just wrote, hi, Pat.
Guest:That's all he fucking wrote.
Guest:And it made me laugh so fucking... It was like, yes, thank you, Todd.
Guest:I needed that.
Guest:But yeah, it was like day ... And there was also, I don't know if you went through this, days where you would start crying as if it was a ... It wasn't connected to a thought, connected to Michelle.
Guest:It was like my body was like, oh, hey, I just need to cry for a while.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:That happens.
Guest:That still happens.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:About nothing?
Guest:Well, it's about something.
Guest:Well, I mean, it is about them, but it's not connected to any memory you're having.
Marc:No, right.
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:Oh, it's weird.
Marc:Yeah, you don't know what triggers it.
Marc:It could be someone talking about something sad.
Marc:And, like, that...
Guest:that loss plugs in something so you're never not going to be able to cry again yeah it's like you're always going to be it's always going to be right there it's ready to go it is right it really is i mean it's a hair trigger with me now yeah and sometimes it's it's a hair trigger not when something's sad the things that make me cry now um i'm gonna get all fucked up now is when
Guest:When somebody steps up for someone else that doesn't need to do that, when someone is being kind to someone, because I had so many people that didn't need to step up for me, that stepped up for me.
Guest:So when I see someone go do that for someone else, even a stranger, it wipes me the fuck out.
Guest:It just...
Guest:Even like if I was rewatching the fucking Bad News Bears and when Walter Matthau decides, like I'm gonna, no, I'm gonna coach his team.
Guest:Fuck it, the only vote that counts.
Guest:Like, oh, he's stepping up to help these kids.
Guest:I just start crying.
Guest:Someone's being nice to someone.
Guest:Well, that, I mean.
Marc:Oh, fuck, hang on.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Yeah, I think about it too.
Marc:Like with animals too.
Marc:Like with people helping animals, it kills me.
Marc:Oh my God.
Marc:I get so invested in, there's a purity to the vulnerability and innocence of animals.
Marc:that I can't take it.
Marc:It drives me.
Marc:But exactly what you're saying.
Marc:If I'm in an AA meeting, just hearing the stories of people finding it, of getting sober, I'm like, oh my God.
Marc:I always heard that, and it was always sort of satisfying, but now it's like...
Marc:Just people, you know, the helping other people thing is really crazy.
Marc:It's totally moving and it should be.
Marc:And we live in a culture where, you know, everyone's doubling down on hurting people.
Marc:And like, look, I'm guilty.
Guest:Almost like for clout.
Guest:Like I'm showing you, I know that I'm not supposed to be hurting people.
Guest:So I'm going to show you where my status is by doing the thing that other people shouldn't be doing.
Guest:I have no consequence.
Guest:That's my status.
Guest:It's so sick right now.
Marc:Yeah, but I try to really embrace the vulnerability of whatever.
Marc:Because I think it also, what you're talking about, and I think I can relate to, is that, look, we're selfish guys.
Marc:We have narcissistic components.
Marc:But when you lose somebody tragically, it just punches open a door to empathy that you didn't have before.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I mean, you can fake it and you can be empathetic, but the depth of it now when you experience profound loss is that you know you're present for that.
Guest:It's kind of wild.
Guest:I'm grateful for it.
Guest:No, yeah.
Guest:It was actually kind of interesting.
Guest:I remember when I was listening, I think I tweeted about the episodes with you and Proops and you and Dana where you guys were talking about the state of comedy and you weren't-
Guest:And attacking what was going wrong in comedy, you were genuinely struggling to understand this and why is it going this way?
Guest:And it wasn't coming from, yes, there was some disdain and some frustration, but there was this, what the fuck is, I care about this art form.
Marc:And also, I don't understand people.
Marc:It's like you think you understand people.
Marc:Like when you look at history and you look at evil people.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is that, you know, I think this is really the first time I've been able to sort of identify, you know, when craven people are given license, they take it.
Marc:Oh, boy.
Marc:And like, you know, you wonder about how like Nazism worked or how these horrible things happened.
Marc:You know, how Christians killed millions of people.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And how like that in Rwanda, all of a sudden people are macheteing their neighbors.
Marc:Overnight.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because of a code word on a radio show.
Guest:Their version of Rush Limbaugh said, time to cut down the tall trees.
Guest:And they all got the message and did it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Terrifying.
Marc:As a species, it's really hit or miss, and they're all corruptible.
Marc:It's very rare that you get somebody whose center of gravity and whose character is so strong that they won't kind of crumble into craven behavior somehow.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Look, I'm a comic.
Marc:There's a whole spectrum of borderline criminals in our world.
Marc:There always have been, whether they were running from alimony or raping women in Vince Champs.
Marc:I remember that guy.
Marc:I remember Vince.
Marc:We did the fucking comedy competition with him.
Marc:But no, but my point is like, what's happening is I'm like, I don't understand this person.
Marc:I don't understand where their heart is.
Marc:And I don't understand how they can talk like this or think like this.
Marc:But the truth of the matter is people believe what they believe and they have a reason for it.
Marc:And it's like, it's not that maybe their heart is terrible with everybody.
Marc:It's just from my point of view, how can you sign on to this?
Marc:It's even with like Chappelle and all this, you know, language stuff and all this.
Marc:It's sort of like, I don't understand why.
Marc:I don't understand the why.
Marc:And I know there's a bigger arcing sort of belief system around it that isn't necessarily right wing.
Marc:A cultural thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I do still think it's shallow.
Marc:And I do still think it's antagonistic and it's stifling progress.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:This idea.
Marc:I think that some of it is insulated in the idea of free speech or this or the other thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I think that's sort of bullshit.
Yeah.
Guest:That whole thing with me and him at the beginning of the year was really instructive when I- Oh, you got the picture?
Guest:Well, I was in Seattle, and he was like, hey, I'm over at the arena.
Guest:Come over.
Guest:Again, we've known each other since we're fucking teenagers.
Guest:So, yeah, I go, and I did a set and got a picture with him.
Guest:It was good to say.
Guest:I hadn't seen him in so long.
Guest:And then, so at first, and this is, again, this is how tribal and weird shit is.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:First, suddenly, all of these right-wing alt-right guys were doing comments like,
Guest:Patent's on our side.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I was like, oh, and then anti-trans people were, pro-trans people were doing stuff.
Guest:And I was trying to delete all the negative stuff, but I was deleting the pro-trans people first to then get, and it just, it got so ugly.
Guest:So then...
Guest:I wrote a thing going, he's still my friend.
Guest:I still love him.
Guest:We disagree on trans rights violently.
Guest:And that's just how it's going to be.
Guest:I don't know why that is.
Guest:And then it became, the PC police got to patent.
Guest:And I'm like, this is not a fucking sporting event.
Guest:They were literally talking in terms...
Marc:Of like pro wrestling.
Marc:This is the thing.
Guest:Bobby Heenan got to Andre the Giant and brainwashed him.
Marc:But this is the nerd thing.
Marc:Is that now, you know, the ebb and flow of culture is being dictated by the guys who were playing, you know, it's a video game.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:It's manifesting itself.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Because when you started to see them like going out for the first time, if you look at CPAC, you're like, that's them?
Guest:Right.
Guest:And they're like, yeah, meh.
Yeah.
Guest:By the way, also, CPAC, my brother posted some footage.
Guest:Whenever they do CPAC, it's always a very tight shot from like row three, so it looks packed.
Guest:But he found shots from the back of the room, and it's like three-fourths empty.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:It's just all this loudness and making it look crazy, and there's not a lot of people there.
Marc:I just, my big problem, and I've talked about this with the other fellows, is just that it's very, you know, despite these people who are peers and who are like, you know, because look, I know, look, I'm a real comic.
Marc:I came up in the clubs like you did.
Marc:We know all these guys.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And they were filthy to begin with.
Marc:So...
Marc:And I was pretty filthy.
Guest:Well, also, I think for us, for people that are outsiders of comedy, not that I want to use the term outsiders, but comedians have beefs all the time.
Guest:We fight all the fuckers.
Marc:But this isn't about beefs to me.
Guest:No, no.
Marc:It's sort of like, it's really about like, you know, either you allow the language to evolve.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you engage in tolerance.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Or you push back on these things.
Marc:And if you push back on tolerance, you are going to push back on small groups of people.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And if you're going to push back on language, you're just being weird.
Guest:And also just to say like, hey, things have changed.
Guest:That word isn't that acceptable.
Guest:I'm never giving it up.
Guest:Hang on.
Guest:You're a writer.
Guest:You can think of a million other.
Guest:By the way, how is that different from when I remember I had a really rough bit
Guest:about Hot Pockets and someone said, hey, have you seen Jim Gaffigan's bit about Hot Pockets?
Guest:And I went and saw his and I was like, oh, that's out of my fucking ass.
Guest:He owned, like his is brilliant.
Guest:It's gone.
Marc:Well, you're lucky you did that because if you hadn't, when you perform now, there'll be one guy going,
Guest:The Hot Pocket.
Guest:The Hot Pocket.
Guest:But could you imagine if I doubled down on that?
Guest:Sure.
Marc:I just heard Chappelle just did a joke that I've been doing for weeks about Will Smith and about the Chris Rock thing.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I was saying, because my take on it is different.
Marc:It wasn't my take, which is still intact for however long that can last.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It was just the idea that there was really this sort of feeling like, is the country going to recover?
Marc:And I'm like, it's not the towers.
Marc:It's not Space Shuttle Challenger.
Marc:A guy hit a clown.
Marc:A rich guy hit another rich guy.
Marc:He said, my friends hit each other.
Marc:It's not the Challenger.
Marc:And I'm like, all right, well, that's done.
Guest:I texted Chris Rock the next day because I knew he was doing a show.
Guest:And I was like, hey, man, what are you going to open with?
Guest:And he would just be like, ha, ha, ha, ha.
Guest:Comedians, weird things happen.
Guest:You've been attacked on stage.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But I guess the thing is what's upsetting is that I think- But yeah, the doubling down is weird.
Marc:Yeah, and I think a lot of times they're not totally aware, not unlike your situation in your proximity to him, is how they're being used.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So at some point, you may want to be doing what you want to do, but there's forces bigger than you that are going to co-opt your message.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Marc:And at some point you have to think like,
Marc:You can't just say like, hey, man, it's not my business.
Guest:It kind of is your business.
Guest:And also it's tempting because sometimes the co-opting can be very, very profitable and you can get swept up in that.
Guest:But it is puzzling when like Chappelle's one of the smartest guys I've ever met.
Guest:He's and he was always from the age of 14.
Guest:It's just weird that this is weird.
Marc:It's weird that the commitment to this one thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And like, you know, he's done brilliant bits.
Marc:I like the guy.
Marc:But it's weird to me.
Guest:I don't know if it's religious.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I've done bits coming up.
Guest:You can hear them on my albums.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:For some I use the R word.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:There's an album where I use the N word.
Guest:I'm using it to make fun of racism.
Guest:But...
Guest:wealthy white guy using ironic racism does not age well.
Guest:No.
Guest:And instead of me going, no, it's fine.
Guest:I'm just like, hey, I fucked up, didn't know, but I learned better.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I switched things and I still got tons of shit.
Marc:I did that teenage girls bit on Letterman.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But you know what?
Marc:Still a good joke.
Marc:It really is.
Marc:Some guy said, you might want to take that off your website.
Marc:I'm like, I can't take it off anything.
Marc:I did it on Letterman.
Guest:I've had people like, am I going to go back and edit?
Guest:I can't edit my albums.
Guest:It's out there.
Marc:When I look at the mathematics of the joke, I think it still holds.
Marc:I don't think it implies anything about me.
Marc:It's just an idea that is genuine.
Marc:I've had the same thing, and I've had people tell me things.
Marc:About stuff.
Marc:That have made me change.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Where I'm just sort of like, that's okay.
Guest:I thought using the R word forever.
Guest:Me too.
Guest:And a woman in my IG messages really, really laid it out for me in a way that I'm like, she's right.
Guest:I'm absolutely fucking wrong.
Guest:What got to me was a woman said, you know, like, I'm the parent.
Guest:Yeah, that's what I, yeah, she's like, and she went through it day to day, what it's like, and I'm like, fuck, I was, and again, there's nothing more, in my mind, there's nothing more confidence than owning your mistakes, owning your influences.
Guest:I remember someone tried to, someone, I was arguing with some troll on Twitter, this was years ago, and they threw that, a clip of Patrice O'Neill talking to you on Open Anthony saying,
Guest:You've, Mark, you've birthed a lot of babies, like influence, and Patton is one of yours.
Guest:He's like, see?
Guest:I'm like, no shit I was influenced by him.
Guest:Are you out of here?
Guest:How the fuck do you, do you think I'm going to deny that?
Guest:Of course.
Guest:And by the way, thank God I had him as an, could you imagine if I had some shitty comedian as an influence?
Guest:I lucked out having him as an influence.
Guest:The fuck?
Guest:What the fuck are you talking about?
Guest:I don't know why that's an own, these people.
Marc:It's just sad.
Marc:I can't take it.
Marc:And you're all over Twitter.
Marc:I can't do it anymore.
Marc:I won't do it anymore.
Marc:Really?
Marc:No, I mean, I promote my shit.
Marc:I'll do some weird shit occasionally.
Marc:But I'm not going to.
Marc:I can't.
Marc:Because I can't detach.
Guest:Yeah, but then you do these live streams on Instagram.
Guest:I know, for hours.
Guest:For hours you're on there, like having people comment.
Marc:Yeah, you know what I've gotten?
Marc:I've created this amazing audience of aggravated middle-aged women.
Marc:Very sensitive, creative, but angry middle-aged women.
Marc:And they're like half the audience and the other half is people they bring who don't know me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So it's a woman going like, oh, he's like this sometimes.
Marc:And someone else going like, so this is the guy.
Marc:That's my idea.
Guest:It's okay.
Guest:By the way, that's a great title for a special, he's like this sometimes.
Guest:Or he does that.
Guest:Mark Maron, he does that.
Guest:He does that.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I don't know what I'm going to call it.
Guest:Good talking to you, buddy.
Guest:Buddy, Sam, this was awesome.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:And thank you for everything that you've been kind of fighting with on these past episodes and on the podcast.
Guest:It's been pretty amazing.
Guest:Thanks for that.
Guest:It's really good to see somebody smart wrestling with it rather than somebody reactionary or just trying to do the easy take on it.
Guest:So thank you.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:And sometimes, look, I get pushback and I snap.
Marc:It's a wrestler.
Marc:It's not usually about it.
Marc:It's usually more personal.
Guest:No, no, yeah.
Marc:I got an email from a woman telling me that I'm talking too nicely.
Marc:I'm saying I'm great too much.
Marc:She was concerned that I was drifting into narcissism.
Guest:Drifting into narcissism?
Guest:I've built an island.
Guest:I don't know if you've seen where I – I live on narcissism island, sweetie.
Marc:SS Marin?
Guest:I'm not drifting towards anything.
Guest:I'm on the me, me, me atoll.
Guest:That's where I live.
Marc:I don't know that like I come from pathological narcissists, but like there's difference between being narcissistic and actually being a narcissist because true narcissism is frightening.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And I come from it and I know people who are it.
Marc:And like, you know, I have enough self-awareness to know that I just got touch.
Marc:I'm just a hint of narcissism.
Marc:It's all about me 80% of the time.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:Well, that was nice, right?
Marc:Patton, me, the new movie that he's in, I Love My Dad is now playing in theaters and you can watch it at home on demand starting tomorrow, August 12th.
Marc:All the digital platforms and whatnot.
Marc:Can you hang out a minute, please?
Marc:Please hang out.
Marc:Please hang.
Marc:Excuse me.
Marc:Please hang.
Marc:People with any level subscription to WTF Plus get access to our full ad-free archives.
Marc:That's the only place you can hear the old episodes we did with Patton back from the first two years of the show, way back.
Marc:But if you're a full Marin subscriber, there's new bonus content for you every week, including this week when we posted audio from me and Lara Bites on the road.
Marc:We were driving from Indiana to Kentucky, and we had an adventure trying to find late-night food.
Marc:And you can hear about it from us.
Guest:Bye.
Guest:By the way, on my Instagram, I posted a picture of this burger in my highlights under the Marin Tour highlight thing.
Guest:And it's just, it's so much more than we can describe.
Guest:One of the pieces of bacon was clear and stayed with the burger.
Guest:He took the piece of cheese off and three little pieces of bacon stayed on the cheese.
Guest:None of it looked great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But there was a perfectly clear.
Guest:I don't know if anyone ever like salted a slug as a kid, like put salt on a slug and turned it clear.
Guest:This was that.
Guest:But bacon.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:If you put salt on a slug, you turn it clear.
Guest:I did it once.
Guest:I felt really bad.
Guest:Well, of course.
Guest:Oh, that's terrible.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:You can't walk around being clear.
Guest:Anyway.
Marc:Subscribe by clicking the link in the episode description on whatever app you're using right now or go to WTF pod dot com and click on WTF plus.
Marc:I'm in Lincoln, Nebraska at the Rococo Theater on August 18th.
Marc:Des Moines, Iowa at the Hoyt Sherman Place on August 19th.
Marc:And Iowa City, Iowa at the Englert Theater on August 20th.
Marc:I'm in Tucson, Arizona at the Rialto Theater on September 16th.
Marc:Phoenix, Arizona at Stand Up Live on September 17th.
Marc:Boulder, Colorado at the Boulder Theater on September 22nd.
Marc:Fort Collins, Colorado at the Lincoln Center on September 23rd.
Marc:That link is hot.
Marc:now and toronto ontario at the queen elizabeth theater on september 30th and october 1st london england and dublin ireland i'll be coming to you in october go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all dates and ticket info and uh oh you can do it you can get sober listen to me listen to me you can
Marc:Here we go.
Marc:Here's some guitar.
.
.
Guest:guitar solo
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Thank you.
Thank you.
.
.
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey in La Fonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.