Episode 1354 - James Acaster
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:Alright, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck, Nicks?
Marc:What the fucksters?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast, WTF.
Marc:Welcome to it.
Marc:First of all, I'll be at Largo in Los Angeles.
Marc:I just want to make sure we know that.
Marc:You know, it's going to get to a point where everyone in Los Angeles between Largo and Dynasty typewriter will have seen me somewhat.
Marc:I think at Dynasty...
Marc:On the 14th, I'm actually going to do some sort of improvisational crowd work show and record it for that.
Marc:August 14th.
Marc:Is that when it is?
Marc:Do I even know my own dates?
Marc:What's my own calendar?
Marc:Yeah, 14th.
Marc:Same day, apparently, my window cleaner comes.
Marc:So, look, today I talked to James Acaster.
Marc:A comedian who I watched for a minute and stopped watching one time.
Marc:When his four Netflix specials came out, I thought the audacity, the swagger, the confidence of someone to drop four fucking hours on Netflix at the same time.
Marc:This British kid in his corduroy jacket.
Marc:I'm not having it.
Marc:I watched 10 minutes and I'm like, I'm out.
Marc:I'm out.
Marc:How can this go on for another three hours and 15 minutes?
Marc:I thought to myself.
Marc:But then, like, I kept hearing about him.
Marc:And then he was up in Montreal.
Marc:And then I thought, like, let me get a load of this dude.
Marc:And I watched more of it.
Marc:I didn't watch all four, but I definitely watched a couple.
Marc:And I was taken with his microphone and the mic cord.
Marc:Material was pretty great, too.
Marc:Interesting weaving of sort of expanding reality into nonsense and then coming back around to real stuff.
Marc:And the newest one was pretty good.
Marc:There was some power hitting there.
Marc:He's a very smart guy, very clever guy, and courageous guy, really, in terms of material.
Marc:I was happy to talk to him.
Marc:But before we get into that, something happened yesterday.
Marc:Many of you know that I have Sammy and Buster.
Marc:Buster being the black cat, sweet cat, smart cat, knows what's up.
Marc:Think there's a human inside that head.
Marc:He might have kidney problems.
Marc:It's unclear.
Marc:Don't know how much kidney juice he has.
Marc:He went into renal failure when he was very young.
Marc:Doesn't matter for the story.
Marc:I also have Sammy, the very sweet Sammy.
Marc:Little sweet Sammy, the orange and white tabby.
Marc:He's a little tough guy, Sammy is.
Marc:He's a squat cat.
Marc:Buster's a lanky cat.
Marc:Sammy's a stout little guy.
Marc:He's a very nice guy, kind of dumb.
Marc:Buster's a little nervous, very smart.
Marc:Anyway, doesn't matter.
Marc:What happened was...
Marc:Got back to the house the other day, day before yesterday, and I heard something out back.
Marc:And Kit and I go out back and I'm like, what's that noise?
Marc:And she goes, oh my God.
Marc:And there was a cat underneath the stairway.
Marc:This cat runs out from underneath the backyard staircase.
Marc:And I'm like, what the hell is this?
Marc:And she goes, oh no, there's more.
Marc:There's kittens.
Marc:So there's like three kittens in there and they weren't there.
Marc:I would have noticed this.
Marc:I noticed this cat a couple of days ago running across the street.
Marc:I'm like, whose fucking cat is that?
Marc:Well, I don't know whose it is, but now there's three kittens under my staircase with this cat freaking out.
Marc:So Kit feeds it and then this morning I wake up and there's only just one kitten by itself under there.
Marc:She had fucking split and moved them.
Marc:So I took the one kitten out, tiny little thing, put it in a box with a nice blankie and Kit took it over to the Humane Society to feed it and
Marc:get it on its way to being domesticated, living the life, got out.
Marc:But where's the other thing?
Marc:I thought, well, she must have went somewhere else, took the other two, probably planning on getting that other guy.
Marc:I feel bad, but this is the right thing to do.
Marc:And it turns out she, I looked at the first place I looked, I found her under the deck, down at the end of the deck.
Marc:I stuck my head under there.
Marc:It's only about a half a foot of space where you can look under there into the dark.
Marc:And there she was just glaring at me.
Marc:And I could see a kitten.
Marc:So I fed her.
Marc:She ate it.
Marc:And then she split.
Marc:And I went out there with Kit.
Marc:And we looked under there.
Marc:We could at least make out one kitten.
Marc:There was a gray one, a black one.
Marc:And then the one I got, gray and white.
Marc:But we didn't know what to do.
Marc:And apparently, because I can't get at those kittens now, we can't trap her and get the kittens because it's not that easy.
Marc:Now we've got to wait a couple weeks feeding her.
Marc:But then I run into the lady from next door.
Marc:who I just met, and she's carrying her dog, and she's like, oh yeah, I gotta tell you something.
Marc:There was a cat with four kittens in my carport, and I saw her in the movie.
Marc:I'm like, yeah, she's under my deck.
Marc:And she said there were four kittens.
Marc:I'm like, four?
Marc:When I saw them the next day, there was three.
Marc:How'd she lose a kitten?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Maybe the count is weird.
Marc:Maybe she got three under there.
Marc:All I know is I got one out.
Marc:And now I know there's at least two kittens under my deck and a mother that I'm feeding and need to feed for a couple weeks.
Marc:Why me?
Marc:Why me?
Marc:Do I have to take that cat?
Marc:I feel an almost immediate attachment to these cats.
Marc:This little guy that I took out of there, little gray and white guy.
Marc:You don't even know what they are.
Guest:They're just like... Their eyes are blue.
Marc:Their ears are weird.
Marc:None of them are going to be heinous.
Marc:They're all going to be cute.
Marc:But do I just have an emotional attachment to the spectrum of kitten-ness starting at week two, week three?
Marc:I mean, I can't assume that I have a particular attraction to this particular...
Marc:What do you think you do?
Marc:Like Sammy, I was a little nervous about because Sammy had this perpetually worried face and it was not comforting and it was not cute.
Marc:It was always like sort of, what's the matter, man?
Marc:What?
Marc:It's not that bad.
Marc:He looked worried all the time when he was like four weeks old, five weeks old, six weeks old.
Marc:Just total worry face constantly.
Marc:Blue eyes, worry face.
Marc:And then it went away.
Marc:I don't know if I'm going to end up with this cat, but I believe we did the right thing.
Marc:I believe we did the right thing.
Marc:James Acaster has a book coming out later this year, James Acaster's Guide to Quitting Social Media.
Marc:He's also announcing tour dates today, so you can go to his website, jamesacaster.com, for details on tickets.
Marc:And we did this in a hotel room, and it got good.
Marc:Yeah, I never know what's going to happen.
Marc:This is the one thing about what I do.
Marc:I do not know how it's going to go because I'm relying on a conversation unfolding.
Marc:And it did.
Marc:Here is me and James Acaster unfolding, unpacking and stacking.
Yeah.
Marc:you asked me how often i do this i'm not as often as i used to because exactly the type of panic i'm in right now yeah the fury and the panic yeah of having no control over what's about to happen outside within minutes was that always there at the beginning or did you were you also like quite excited about the podcast oh yeah yeah and so it was overriding all of that
Marc:But it was more of an urgency that we have to deliver a new episode every Monday and Thursday, no matter what.
Marc:And that time that I did it at an airport, I didn't know if I was going to make it home because there was a problem with the flights and I was supposed to record that day for the next day, but I had equipment.
Marc:So I thought like, well, fuck it.
Marc:And I went to one of the lounges and I said, I need a conference room.
Marc:I paid like a couple hundred dollars just to sit there and do a fucking intro because I didn't want, you know, there was an urgency to it.
Marc:And I'm starting to realize as I get older, I don't know.
Marc:where you're at, that I'm probably totally irrelevant in the big picture.
Guest:In general.
Marc:In life?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, podcasters, yeah.
Marc:But I don't, like, that's the new struggle.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's like, does it fucking matter what I'm doing?
Guest:yeah i also just how quickly i'm very i just discovered how just fragile i am mentally with that how quickly i go to that thought yeah i pulled my back for the first time ever this week doing what just i bent down i was putting some uh rubbish in a bin yeah skip yeah drop some of it bent down to pick it up yeah absolutely just killed my back yeah
Guest:and uh you know over the last few days having to deal with it the amount of times i thought do i even matter in my head i'm like oh it's over now it's over now you've pulled your back you're not gonna live forever that's it well that okay so that's an i'm not gonna live for everything the thing that i think is is fucking my head up it's like i'm 58 so you're 20 years younger than me whatever yeah
Marc:It's just that I've done a lot of work.
Marc:I put a lot out there.
Marc:But there's a never-ending appetite for the work.
Marc:There's no pause where anyone's going to sort of look back at the great work.
Marc:That era seems to be over.
Marc:There were guys that you grew up with that I grew up with.
Marc:And you're kind of like, look at the great work they did.
Marc:But now it's just sort of like, we just need more.
Marc:We just need more shit.
Marc:And there's some part of my brain that's exhausted.
Marc:But you seem to be able to generate plenty of shit.
Guest:Yeah, kind of, but also like, you know, just doing things that I'm very, if I'm enthusiastic about it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, it's great.
Guest:And any time I've said yes to something that, you know, I just saw pound signs or whatever, then that's when it's bad.
Guest:And I realise I shouldn't have said yes to this and I'm making something that's bad or...
Guest:Or making something that's not going to get anywhere.
Guest:I've been in the situation of waiting to see if something gets the green light and gets commissioned, and I'm hoping it doesn't because I know that if I have to do this... The dread.
Guest:It'll be bad.
Guest:It'll be bad, and I'll be making the bad thing.
Guest:For however long.
Guest:Yeah, for as long as it...
Marc:As long as the bad thing goes on for it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:A couple questions I had, because I remember when, how many, what did you do, 12 specials for Netflix?
Guest:Four, yeah.
Marc:I just remember, because there's a whole generation of comics that I don't know.
Marc:I don't know where they come from, and I don't know a lot of the British guys, but I just remember when it came out, it's like, this guy just did four.
Marc:He dropped four, and I'm like...
Marc:What the fuck is that?
Marc:Who does that?
Marc:So I immediately resentful.
Marc:And I'm like, who's this young dude who's just going to drop four specials?
Marc:So I remember I started to watch one, and I was like, I'm just not going to do it.
Marc:Out of spite, I'm not going to do it.
Marc:But then I realized that you'd done all this other stuff.
Marc:So I went back, and then I saw that clip that was going around about the Christians and the trancing.
Marc:which is like an area where I like to talk about.
Marc:But so I went back and I watched some of the specials.
Marc:And like the first thing I got is that, where'd you get that mic?
Guest:Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And the cord.
Guest:Yeah, so that was, there's one of the shows, because all four of those shows was shows that I did over quite a big period of time and then filmed them all at once.
Guest:But there was like six years of touring them and then doing the next one.
Guest:And I think one of them, it just happened that like,
Guest:i had a red stall that the venue had for the month in edinburgh uh so i was using this red stall anyway and then uh the backdrop i wanted a backdrop last minute yeah uh because the stage was too deep and it looked mad so they were like we've got this red curtain and i thought this looks stupid i've got a red curtain and a red stall yeah um and then so i just leant into it and
Guest:all the red clothes I had in my suitcase I wore for the show as well.
Marc:For the one in Edinburgh.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So then when it came to doing that show on tour, I think my tour manager just suggested it and just went, do you want us to get you a mic that is also the same colour as everything else?
Guest:And I just said yes to it.
Guest:managed to and then just like just you know i don't know if you've had it but you just don't even look for stuff and you find it so that i had to buy a new mic cord and then found one that matched um the rest of the yellow one that matched the pattern on my tie and then i had to get new shoelaces and walked into a shop and it was like the exact same as my mic cord shoelaces which no one has ever noticed obviously who's watched the specials but uh yeah and then it just when that's when filming the specials i was like let's have that for all four of them and try and do the color thing
Marc:Well, I noticed it right away because I'm like, this is the only thing we work with.
Marc:I'm very hung up on microphones.
Marc:I only use ones with wires.
Marc:I wouldn't use one with no wire because it bothers me.
Marc:I feel untethered.
Marc:They're usually too fat.
Marc:They don't fit into a mic stand properly.
Marc:So when I saw that mic, I started looking for colored mics.
Marc:I'm like, where the fuck?
Marc:What kind of mic is that?
Marc:Where would he get that mic?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Someone had to spray it.
Guest:There's some guy who did it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Sprayed it for us.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:yeah that's what i realized after i couldn't find one that that you had it was a it was a set deck job yeah somebody from props did it yeah yeah someone had done it and um i've got it still somewhere at home i'm very fond of it obviously did you take it with you when you know for the last tour i just used whatever might i had in the venue and then when we filmed it um
Guest:I worked with the same production company who filmed the Netflix ones.
Guest:And they are even more meticulous over detail than I am.
Guest:So they were like, you can't just use a normal mic because you use the spray one for the last one.
Guest:So they got a mic and sprayed it the colors of that show and gave it to himself.
Guest:But I just used it for the taping.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So now you're the guy that they're like, we got to spray a mic.
Guest:That's it now.
Guest:If I ever do a show, there's a normal mic.
Guest:Everyone's going to go, he's slipping in stand.
Guest:I'm not going to bother watching that based on the photos because he's clearly not caring anymore.
Marc:I'm very specific about mics.
Marc:You sort of get attached to things.
Marc:I'm not one of those guys that brings a mic to the gig.
Marc:But if it's a weird mic, I'm like, where did you even get this?
Marc:Just get a 58.
Marc:There's one mic.
Marc:Why fuck with that?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:But I don't know a lot about what's going on.
Marc:I had a bad experience at Edinburgh years ago.
Marc:And I ran into the woman who put me through it last night, the gilded balloon lady.
Marc:What's her name?
Marc:Karen?
Marc:Karen, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I bumped into her the other day.
Marc:It wasn't her fault.
Marc:I didn't know the way it worked.
Marc:My wife had just left me.
Marc:It was like 2007 maybe.
Marc:And she brought me over on a double bill with Kirk Fox, which I didn't realize already, out of the gate, strike against you.
Marc:double bill means these guys are green uh-huh they don't have full shows and they're americans who cares yeah yeah so right away i had no idea uh so but it was produced so i didn't need to flyer but no one came i was there for a month yeah and you know i'm maxing out at like 22 people yeah and uh and i'd just been left and the guy i was working with was annoying me and we were living together and during the month i was there his mother died oh god
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I thought, well, this will open up the time for me.
Marc:I can, you know, he'll go home.
Marc:I'll do... Is it first fault?
Marc:Is that your first fault?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Straight to that?
Marc:No.
Marc:No, I felt bad because I was like, what are you going to do?
Marc:Because I just assumed he'd probably go home.
Marc:He's like, no, I'm going to write it out.
Marc:So like now I'm dealing with a slightly sadder guy that I'm living with.
Marc:And I'm in the middle of a separation.
Marc:So it was just...
Marc:and we're doing a show every night for nine people it was fucking devastating awful and then you go i don't know if you have this problem too like it's just not enough about me generally at any festival okay yeah like i go to festivals people like it's great you get to see people all it does is remind me how many fucking comics there are yeah and how again how little i truly matter in the big picture you grew up in festival culture really
Guest:Kind of, yeah.
Guest:Like when I started stand-up, I wasn't that aware of Edinburgh.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But people said to me straight away, like, you need to go.
Guest:And all my friends were going.
Guest:All my new friends are in comedy.
Guest:And I went and like, but yeah, the first Edinburgh I went to,
Guest:it was it was last minute decision yeah and i lived in kettering uh in northamptonshire in the middle of england and i didn't live in london and i got a 12-hour coach to get there because i uh i couldn't afford to get the trains yeah this very long coach journey and i camped uh it's outside of the festival for two weeks um in the wilderness
Guest:Yeah, like in a little campsite that was in a bowl-shaped field that was like, and it was torrential rain for the full two weeks.
Guest:So on night one, my tent just got washed away and all of my belongings got soaked and flooded.
Guest:And that was like night one of two weeks.
Guest:And I didn't have any gigs booked.
Guest:uh i was just going to go and try and get on bills and turn up and ask to get on um you know can you do that yeah but like but they have to be like free entry mixed bill gigs they do different lineups every day right i'll just show up asked to be on most of the time in the first couple of days they'd tell me we can get you on tomorrow and put my name down and it was and by the end of that two weeks i was doing six gigs a day and i've been doing comedy since january and it was august and it was
Guest:by far the most invaluable two weeks of my entire career still it was like really you know i found my first routine that actually repeatedly would work during that two weeks interesting yeah and uh learned a lot about oh maybe this is who i am as a comic but but it was you know pretty brutal and you definitely felt like um
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:On the grand scale of things with this festival, I'm absolutely nothing because I've just started.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I have a gift of feeling that way throughout my career.
Guest:You can always find a place of feeling like it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's always possible.
Marc:But that's it.
Marc:So you were doing comedy how long when you took that on?
Guest:So it's like, yes, six, seven months, something like that.
Marc:And what were you doing before?
Guest:I was in bands.
Guest:I played the drums in a series of bands with my mates.
Guest:Were you a good drummer?
Guest:I was.
Guest:I used to teach the drums.
Guest:And that was what I did after school.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I taught the drums.
Guest:I worked in a kitchen part-time.
Guest:But I wanted to be in a band.
Guest:I was in a band with some friends.
Guest:I didn't go to university and we just were like, we're going to be this, we're going to change the world with our music and it's going to be like that.
Guest:You believed it.
Guest:We really believed we were going to reinvent everything.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:Like it was really lofty ambitions.
Guest:Now we were our only fans as well.
Guest:No one liked us.
Guest:It was very badly at gigs.
Guest:and who are we modeling yourself after we what was the what was like you know we're gonna do it like who yeah i think we wanted to be like a more kind of uh clean uh like version of frank zapper but with the vocals of the beach boys wow and we were not talented enough mark and there were only two of us so it was very hard to achieve that
Marc:A clean version of Frank Zappa with vocals like the Beach Boys.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What's funny is like, you know, like those are both, you know, relatively like I imagine that the Beach Boys you aspire to were the kind of Brian Wilson driven deep.
Guest:yeah you know like the it wasn't just the pop beach boys it was like right it was constantly every band practice would have a lunch break at some point and every lunch break my friend graham who was also in the band would put on uh the either the pet sounds right uh recording sessions yeah so it was just brian wilson talking to starting the wrecking crew stopping it telling them let's turn that up let's try that again doing it again yeah
Guest:Or it was like listening to a documentary about Smile or something like that.
Guest:So it was that every day.
Marc:So two entirely esoteric American musical talents in a way.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But there's a certain type of people that like just – I can't listen to Brian Wilson.
Marc:It's too sad for me.
Marc:You can't at all.
Marc:Not really.
Marc:But so it didn't work out.
Guest:It didn't work out.
Guest:But, and when it stopped, I was like, I just, I've been trying to be in bands since I was 13.
Guest:I learned the drums that, I started learning the drums when I was seven.
Guest:When I was 13 at school, I was trying to make everyone sing one of my friends be in bands with me.
Guest:trying to make people care about it by the end of that band i was 22 and i didn't have the energy yeah yeah to try and find more people again try make them care again so i started doing stand-up because didn't have any qualifications didn't have like any backup plan but i i knew i liked being on stage and i liked um traveling around and doing gigs and seeing different parts of the uk so what so what what about your folks do you have brothers and sisters
Guest:Yeah, I got Younger Brother, Younger Sister.
Marc:And were they supportive of the whole... Yeah, they all were.
Guest:Well, the thing is that I'd done one or two stand-up gigs while being in the band still just to see if I could do it for like... Because I was a big fan of stand-up and just wanted to do it for the fun of it.
Guest:And my sister had been to one of the gigs and kind of came away going...
Guest:I think you should do that.
Guest:And my parents... I'm probably one of the only comics whose parents said, you know, a safer bet might be that you do stand-up.
Guest:Because they were like, you know, your sister says she saw you at that gig, so maybe do that.
Guest:Because before I cared about stand-up and just did gigs every now and again, I just always had a good gig because I didn't care about it.
Guest:So I'd go on stage and just mess around.
Guest:I didn't care how good it was or how... And so it would go quite well.
Guest:And I thought in my...
Guest:very naive head I was like oh so that means it's easy so I'll just do that and it'll be easy and then as soon as I started trying to do it properly every gig went badly and was very very difficult because I was you know I was going well if I'm going to do this
Guest:If I'm going from being in this band that was going to change the world, I need to now do something that has at least some artistic merit.
Guest:So let's think about the routines you really want to do and what you really want to say on stage.
Guest:And of course, I wasn't good enough to do any of those yet.
Guest:So it was fully... But that was the intention.
Marc:I mean, because you didn't have any other jobs, really, though.
Yeah.
Guest:When I was doing stand-up, I was working in kitchens still, washing up.
Guest:Not teaching drums?
Guest:No.
Guest:I was teaching drums for the first year of maybe doing stand-up, and then I moved to London, and I was a classroom assistant in the daytime at a school for autistic children.
Marc:What's that mean, classroom assistant?
Guest:so just like uh not the teacher but the person who's like just helping out the kids who need extra help and how do you get a gig like that uh i had weirdly so classroom assistant you don't need any you can just apply but the fact that i taught kids the drums and i've done some respite work with uh a kid who had down syndrome so i'd work with people with special needs before so it will it like kind of made it that okay you can probably do this job
Guest:yeah and uh so i did that for nine months and look and at the end of that and i really enjoyed it like i didn't i was doing it because i was like that gives me my evenings free to do gigs that was the main reason i was moving to london just to do gigs there's no point doing a job that's going to get in the way of that so i'll work and then do gigs in the evening yeah but i really got invested in it and really uh
Guest:There's so much problem solving in it.
Guest:Working with the autistic kids.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like you got to learn what each kid, you know, what triggers them, what will calm them down, what they, you know, how they communicate.
Guest:And that would be really fascinating and enriching each day.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, like there's something that really grounds you about like doing real service work.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Like when you're really working with people that have health.
Marc:And it's not just as simple as like, you know, well, my problems aren't that big or whatever.
Marc:But it almost makes you understand what it feels like, what you're supposed to feel like as a good person.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, the whole thing is an exercise in empathy.
Guest:If you're working with people with autism.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Because you have to think in any situation, right, what in this room is potentially –
Guest:going to make them feel uneasy yeah and uh and how am i going to deal with that so you're you know having constantly think how do these seven individuals all feel in this environment yeah and and it would i definitely think for that time when i was working there i was a lot more um
Guest:kind of forgiving it with most people like just outside of work as well of like if they were behaving like a jerk yeah yeah yeah i'll be like yeah but it's probably because of all these factors and right right right not just because they're just a bad person sure yeah and uh
Guest:Although, you know, work could be quite intense.
Guest:I was working with one kid one-on-one who wasn't autistic.
Guest:He had emotional behavior difficulties and was misdiagnosed and put in the school.
Guest:And it would be quite difficult all day long.
Guest:And then I would go and do a gig in the evening.
Guest:And if anyone heckled me, I had to not respond.
Guest:Because I knew if I respond, it's going to be everything that I wanted to say to that kid in the day.
Guest:Just unleashed on this one person who was just wanting to join in.
Marc:Well, that's like that attitude of like this sort of British attitude about hecklers.
Marc:They just want to join in like that.
Marc:So that's not good either.
Marc:No.
Marc:None of it's good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I would have probably chosen to unload on the heckler.
Guest:Yeah, well, I've done some gigs where I've done that and really, really regret... I don't know how you feel when you choose to let them have it.
Guest:But more often than not, I go away going, I really wish I hadn't done that.
Guest:And I really regret saying the things to that person.
Guest:And I know a lot of the time now, comedy...
Guest:The comedians are painted, and it's quite a small minority of comedians, but they're very vocal, as being like, I don't give a shit how the audience feels.
Guest:I'm going to say whatever.
Guest:And I think most comedians just come away going, I don't think I should have said that.
Guest:Should I have said that thing?
Guest:I think I've heard that person's feelings.
Guest:Oh, no.
Marc:Even the real revolutionaries?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I think they were.
Marc:Yeah, I've made some very bad choices because –
Marc:I know that I have a sort of eternal well of resentment and weird emotional neediness.
Marc:Underneath, I guess, most of us are very sensitive.
Marc:So depending on how the set's going.
Marc:Like if the whole thing's not going well and somebody speaks up, it's going to go badly for everybody.
Marc:And you can't win because there's that line where you're dealing with them and you know that you have a very delicate balance to have the rest of the people still with you.
Marc:But as soon as you cross that, as soon as the audience is going like, oh, for God's sake, leave that guy alone.
Marc:And then the whole thing's fucked.
Guest:I saw a documentary once where a group of chimps in the jungle chased another chimp down and killed it.
Marc:Oh, that's the Jane Goodall thing?
Guest:Maybe it was a Jane Goodall thing.
Guest:All I remember is that the chimps are kind of walking away at one point and there's the dead body of the chimp on the floor.
Guest:And another chimp just...
Guest:it's like the last chimp walking away decides to double back go back and just gives one punch to the corpse and then continues to walk away and there's that image sometimes at gigs yeah you feel that line where you've gone i've just doubled back and punched the corpse in front of everybody
Guest:And that's too much.
Guest:That person's already done.
Guest:And I've gone, I've moved on.
Guest:Everyone's thought, oh, we're moving on now.
Guest:And then I've gone, yeah, and by the way, you're a piece of shit.
Guest:And then it's gone back again.
Guest:And it's like, why?
Guest:I'm trying, that is my main, I don't know about you, but like during lockdown,
Guest:I was really realized... It's my longest amount of time not doing stand-up since I started doing stand-up.
Guest:And I really liked it and I didn't miss stand-up at all.
Guest:I had the same experience.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:During lockdowns, I was very much like, oh, I would happily never do it again.
Guest:It's a relief.
Guest:I don't feel like I need to.
Guest:I feel like... As you say, I feel healthier.
Guest:I feel like...
Guest:My body is not being put through as much every evening.
Marc:And the brain, though, because I don't know where you generate, but I mean, you seem more able to generate from, you know, to sort of like, you know, your craft is very good.
Marc:And, you know, I think there's something about the way guys in Europe do long-form comedy.
Marc:I think because of Edinburgh, you see it as a show.
Marc:And you at least are going to tie it back around somehow.
Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, I picked that up later in my career.
Marc:But you can sort of go off on things that, you know, I don't, I'm not, my brain's not going to think of, like, it needs to be existentially important to me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And like, and I'm not sure entertainment was always my intention.
Marc:But you seem to have found peace with, you know, finding relatively mundane things that you can make into it to heighten.
Marc:And I wish I had that skill.
Guest:I don't know that I do.
Guest:Well, those Netflix shows were that.
Guest:But then the show I did after where that clip is from that you mentioned earlier.
Marc:I watched the first half of that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that's more.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The end of that half is just whimsical jokes.
Guest:But the first half of that is as true stories.
Guest:And then the second half is all true stories and very personal.
Guest:And I feel that now I've stepped over into that.
Guest:It feels weird being on stage and not doing that.
Guest:Of being personal.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or just for the audience, it feels weird to be like, why are you saying you're an undercover cop again or whatever?
Guest:Because, like, actually, we know you now.
Marc:So that makes it... Well, that's interesting.
Marc:So first, go back to lockdown.
Marc:Like, you felt good.
Marc:You felt comfortable.
Marc:And you felt... But also, didn't it give your brain a rest?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, like...
Guest:Just so much less anxiety and less self-doubt.
Guest:I get very... I doubt myself so much with this and my confidence gets very low very quickly.
Guest:And it doesn't necessarily matter what... And also people...
Guest:very nice people who are correcting their behavior and what they say to me are saying like yeah we'll try and go like but this is going on and this is going on people like this and I know they're right but I also know that how I'm feeling isn't a logical it's not a logical feeling for whatever reason
Guest:I feel like what I'm doing, whether my stand-up is or whatever, is very throwaway trite.
Guest:This other thing that I've seen someone else do is high art.
Guest:It's beautiful.
Guest:It's perfect.
Guest:I just watched it.
Guest:I think it's so good.
Marc:That's what I'm doing right now.
Guest:You know, yeah.
Guest:I watched a film the other day that just made me go, oh, I'm never going to...
Guest:I never do that.
Guest:What film?
Guest:It was, I mean, it's a film I've seen a lot, but it was, I watched Inglourious Bastards.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I went, because I just felt like watching it again.
Guest:I was like, I don't watch, you know, this will be fun.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:And then it was just putting myself through, I was like, oh, every scene in this.
Guest:it's perfect.
Guest:And the way he shot it and the, oh, this is a mad, like, oh, I just think about actually the concept of it.
Guest:He's, you know, I take it for granted, but he's done this whole fictitious story, but based around like the Nazis and the second world war.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This is actually such a big achievement.
Guest:And, uh, the final shot is amazing.
Guest:Is this perfect?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just down to like BJ Novak's little smirk at the end.
Guest:And then it cuts and you're like, fuck it.
Guest:Like so good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then like that pause and you go in,
Guest:I'm never going to do that.
Guest:No one cares about my fucking Netflix specials.
Guest:No one cares about that.
Guest:So many things I've done have been bad.
Marc:That's layered for me because I have actually a personal kind of insecure-driven resentment of BJ Novak.
Marc:So my experience with that would have been like, there's two reasons why...
Marc:Like, how the fuck did that kid get so successful?
Marc:And I'm never going to make a movie.
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Guest:That doesn't help.
Marc:But see, I try to deal with that all the time.
Marc:Like, right now, I'm in that right now.
Marc:And I've been doing this a long time, and I don't understand it.
Marc:But you understand, and I think you're right, that it's a part of the brain that's sort of this useless appendage.
Marc:It's like this self-loathing, this hammer that we hit ourselves with.
Marc:Even though there's, given our experience and what we've created already, why even have that anymore?
Marc:You know, you've done like nine shows or however many hours, but still is this thing, it's like, I don't know how to do this and I'm going to judge myself against somebody who's doing something that I haven't even set out to do.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, it's not even, but then I think when it's the useless appendage thing, so I'll convince myself sometimes that it's useful.
Guest:So there's that thing of like,
Guest:it's like you're both characters in whiplash so you're both so like you're both of them yeah and and the whole thing is like the whole debate of that film of like you know is that person nothing does that help having someone yell at you that you're fucking awful all the time and that you're useless you're a piece of shit that does that drive you to greatness and you can't achieve that unless you got so sometimes i'm like well the reason i work very hard is because i feel insecure like i'm not good enough right so i'm constantly trying to be good enough all the time yeah
Guest:um but then but there's no there's there's no cap to that no there's no cap to it right so so you can't win that one you can't win and also like it it's not gonna there are more important things so it's trying to like that last tour i did with uh with that the latest special yeah by the end of it i i just hated being on stage and i hated doing stand-up and it made me feel bad about myself hated the repetition
Guest:No, I just hated, it was the most I'd ever, hardest I'd ever worked on a show.
Guest:It was two hours long.
Guest:I got way outside of my comfort zone doing personal stuff and talk about my mental health when before I just hid behind this thing of saying I was doing jury service or something fake.
Guest:And the work in progress shows have gone really well because work in progress, you're always in front of very dedicated comedy nerds who like to see the process.
Guest:So even though your material isn't that great yet, they don't, they give you quite generous with their laughter.
Guest:And then for me, every time I then tour the show, when it's finished, they're to the people who are more casual comedy fans.
Guest:They've seen you on one or two things.
Guest:And they would turn up.
Guest:And on the last tour I did, all those people turned up and they heckled from the start.
Guest:They heckled.
Guest:If I was talking about, especially during the mental health bits, they'd heckle with some pretty weird, inappropriate stuff that wasn't very kind.
Guest:And...
Guest:And I just started to get very bored of it and very like, why did I put that much?
Guest:Also, I was tired.
Guest:I didn't give myself any time off that.
Guest:And when I'm tired, I get very negative.
Guest:I was like, why did I spend over a year honing this show to then go out and tour it to people who I may as well have just gone out and roasted everyone in the audience and they would have been happy.
Guest:I could have gone out and been shit.
Guest:And it would have been just as good to them because they don't care.
Guest:And I felt very much like, what's the fucking point of this?
Guest:I don't want to do it anymore.
Marc:But also, though, the thing that you did as well, and I do it as well, is you made yourself vulnerable to a room full of fucking monsters.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:So, like, you know, there...
Marc:There's something about, like, if you're not doing well with stuff, that the only risk is, you know, making something funny.
Marc:Like, if you've made it a thing where it's like, this is a funny bit, and, you know, my emotional risk is only that I'll feel shitty because it didn't get the laughs.
Marc:You know, that rejection, that sort of baseline, the job of comedian rejection in however we deal with that.
Marc:But once you start, like, putting your heart out there,
Marc:Which, you know, I do fairly often.
Marc:You know, you've really got to find a trustworthy bunch or at least that audience.
Marc:But so, I mean, you have an audience, but you've taken this shift where you're showing more yourself.
Marc:And then all of a sudden the audience is sort of like they get uncomfortable because there's they got to hold up their end.
Marc:There's an emotional responsibility to them receiving, you know, your honesty.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, some of them are like that.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:But then there's always one asshole.
Marc:And they are the people that we've not liked our entire life.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the problem with that, especially going back to being brutal to hecklers, is that, you know, you go through, you know, just coming here to Montreal at the airport, there's a lot of awful people at the airport pushing in queues and getting right up to the baggage carousel so no one else can see their bags because they want theirs so badly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you hate them all and you can't say anything to them because you're not that kind of person.
Guest:You don't want the confrontation.
Guest:But when you're on stage, they might be in the audience and you can say it.
Guest:And it seems like a great thing to do.
Guest:And then sometimes I realize I've misread that they weren't that person.
Guest:And now I've said all that stuff to someone and I feel shitty about it.
Marc:Sometimes they're just drunk or they just have moments.
Marc:I don't imagine that given where you are in your career and –
Marc:is that you're not getting a lot of those people, the bad guys, because they know who you are.
Marc:But I mean, that's the sort of logic of going back to the autistic experience and having a certain amount of empathy for everyone who does asshole things.
Marc:I get livid very quickly, and I know it's not correct, but I'm also like you've got to find a midway point
Marc:for yourself in that empathy thing because you can't just walk around apologizing for everybody and giving everyone the leeway because that's how fascism happens.
Marc:So he's not that bad of a guy.
Marc:He just believes what he believes.
Marc:But the satisfaction is limited to – it's very hard when you're doing that kind of material to distance yourself from the show itself because you still have to do it every night and you still got to put yourself out there.
Guest:Doing it every night and that there was a new like kind of exhaustion that I hadn't experienced before of like, especially if I went out in the first half and someone would do a kind of dumb heckle in the first 10 minutes and the whole audience would laugh at the heckle.
Guest:I would make a decision in my head of right now I'm not doing this routine, this routine, this routine or that routine.
Guest:And I'm doing none of them and I'm not going to tell them that.
Guest:Because that would be petulant.
Guest:I'm not going to go, oh, yeah, guess what?
Guest:There were four routines that I was going to do, but I don't trust anyone else.
Guest:But that idiot fucked it up for everybody.
Guest:Don't want to do that.
Guest:So I'm not going to say that to them.
Guest:But I'd make the decision of, okay, we're going to be material for those bits now that will be easier on me.
Guest:And they won't even know because I don't want to tell them that I have suicidal thoughts sometimes.
Guest:I don't want to tell them that...
Guest:you know that i had a breakdown in 2017 i i don't want to talk to them about any of that because i now don't trust them and i don't feel comfortable in that and so or sometimes i would you know plow ahead and do it anyway and then they would behave the way that i feared they would behave and then you're like okay great that was trust your instinct yeah yeah i should have known that but but there's also but then don't you ever do the argument of like well that's going to make me tougher
Guest:Yeah, if I'm not physically and mentally exhausted, yeah.
Guest:Like on tour, when I'm that tired, I just kind of go, I think it will make all of us collectively weaker if I do this.
Guest:Like I feel like I'm so tired.
Guest:And I've seen comics, when I started out in stand-up,
Guest:um the reason why i was able to quit that job at the school was because josie long asked me to support her on tour one of my favorite comics ever and it was a very big deal to me and she was doing a show that was like an hour and a half long and the first half was like at the time what she was known for just like very in-depth and intricately written whimsical routines yeah really delivered in a
Guest:beautiful way and then the second half was what was this first time she'd ever dove into politics, UK politics and had a lot more like righteous like anger in it and frustration in it and it was a real gear shift and she would do it every night and regardless of if the audience like sometimes the audience were quite clearly
Guest:uh not there for that or they weren't really like a very comedy audience and they just come to the gig and you'd think well i would bail on that second half now because i would be scared but she'd do it every single time and i remember watching it as a new comedian and every time being
Guest:really blown away by the fact she would do it no matter what.
Guest:And then after that, she did two shows that were just pure political shows and you saw the fruits of that.
Guest:You saw, oh, that's why she did that because now she can nail that style.
Guest:She did it in the hardest environments and now she's got two more shows that are that good.
Guest:But I will end up in those situations now and go, oh, no, I'll just eject and do something else because...
Guest:I have sometimes I will push through and do that, you know, go down the harder route.
Guest:But yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I find that like as I get older, though, and I think always like, you know, whatever I'm ejecting to is just a little less.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's I don't have like, you know, well, I used to have like more cat material.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, like, there were points in certain acts where, because I go through these levels.
Marc:Like, now I'm talking about, you know, the death of my partner.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, over COVID.
Marc:And, like, there's a moment where I'm like, after I've just talked about my father's dementia, I'm like, let's do the real stuff.
Marc:You know, like... So... But, like...
Marc:But I think the weight of that is in what you're talking about is just that it's a true emotional risk.
Marc:And the exhaustion you're going to feel and what it does to people who we have a thing in common, whether it's insecurity or depression or whatever.
Marc:that insecurity or feeling that you're not being received for doing that stuff, it'll trigger a shift in the way we see everything for however long that happens.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I think ultimately it can stick for longer and then you have to deconstruct it to get back to just a fucking regular day.
Guest:Well, it's the thing that, you know, since it's starting to do stand-up again after the pandemic, after lockdowns, but like is...
Guest:I knew that's still going to be there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And has, especially having had those two years away from it and really appreciate it.
Guest:You needed the break.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Needed the break, but going like, oh, without it, I feel better.
Guest:So if I'm going to go back to it,
Marc:number one on the list of things that i'm got i've got to do is combat that and figure that out i've got to figure out how not to end up in that night after night again but do you think like do you i guess my question is and not unlike what i felt during the pandemic which is maybe i'm better but do you question your intentions of sharing that
Marc:I mean, because like what I've grown to believe is that, you know, with my podcast and with what I talk about on stage, that there are people that get an awful lot out of it in the sense that they feel less alone.
Marc:When you talk about suicidal thoughts, when you talk about your breakdown, when you talk about like whether it's substance abuse or whatever, whether I do or my suicidal thoughts or my brain, because I used to do what was that?
Marc:I used to do a bit about how, like, you know, I think about suicide all the time, but not because I want to kill myself.
Marc:I just feel better knowing I can if I have to.
Marc:You know, and that's a way for me to compartmentalize suicide ideation because I have it all the fucking time.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:What's your experience with it?
Guest:It was throw away kind of like not very serious stuff, quite flippant stuff.
Guest:And then in 2017, when like, and I'm still kind of figuring out what really happened to me at the start of that year.
Guest:Because like, you know, there was like,
Guest:Little things that were like, well, not little things, but like, you know, on the surface, things that were short term triggers for having a quote unquote breakdown.
Guest:But like, I know that my head just wasn't in a good place over years of probably just like not going to therapy.
Guest:not ever really doing the work and looking after myself.
Guest:And how'd the breakdown manifest?
Guest:Just straight into just pure self-hatred at the beginning, really not liking myself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I remember being in, so I went to do some gigs in New York for the first time at the start of 2017.
Guest:And that was at peak, really not feeling good about myself.
Guest:I remember walking around New York and for the first time thinking like, there's this bridge there and there's that place there.
Guest:And then going, and then really catching myself and being like, okay, fuck, you need to sort this out.
Marc:so that was so you that was coming from a place for me my suicidal ideation is usually from massive anxiety yeah and it's just sort of like it would be easier you know like you know i just want to know that i i can do that to to get but like i i don't really want to do but it sounds like you were like oh it was the first time that i was like like that but then but then very quickly it's like right as soon as i get home yeah i'm finding a therapist right immediately right like because like
Guest:Yeah, and I had it before I had a breakup in like 2013.
Guest:And after that, I was like, that was when I started going to the gym.
Guest:So like I had that and I was like, right, we need to do something.
Guest:You can't sit around feeling sad.
Guest:We have to do so.
Guest:So when I'm feeling like that, it's just that in the past, I've always let it get that bad.
Guest:Now I don't let it get that bad.
Guest:I try and keep on top of things just in my day to day.
Guest:But in those two instances, it was like, here's something I've never done.
Guest:And now I feel really low.
Guest:So I'm going to start going to the gym all the time.
Guest:And then the second time was like, no, I'm going to start going to therapy because this has caught up with me.
Guest:And it's helped?
Guest:Massively.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And you're finding that most of it, you know, you can... Most of it is...
Guest:um cognitive and not chemical yeah uh yeah i think so i mean i don't know sometimes it can be one or the other and like you're just trying to work through things on a case by case like i haven't had um those kind of thoughts since 2017 really actually no that's not true i have i have had moments where
Guest:i've maybe haven't had as serious a thing that was like my brain i was like idly almost planning stuff in my head and i don't think i would have done it yeah but um it's never been hasn't got to that level before yeah but now you know i'll have like every other week therapy sessions so if i do have a thought that is like that yeah
Guest:in any way yeah then break it down right let's talk about it figure out why it was there why we were talking about that why I was thinking about it and you know yeah for a lot of it it can be like I think there's a lot of stuff tied up in and maybe sometimes you can look at like why we do stand up and
Guest:And figure out if there's some self-worth things going on there or how much you like yourself.
Marc:So it wavers though.
Marc:It's like you were talking about before.
Marc:I was working on this material.
Marc:I've been working on this hour and a half or whatever it is for a long time.
Marc:And I was thinking, this is going really well.
Marc:It's all coming together.
Marc:And then I'll just watch somebody do something much easier.
Marc:And I'll think, what the fuck am I doing?
Marc:I mean, it could be so easy.
Marc:But anytime I've even...
Guest:broach that like i i get bored and and i feel like i'm i'm i'm being disingenuous you know yeah but then also like uh you know i'll watch comedians who are doing something that i might think oh that's easier or that's um you know and then anything i bet they just like oh they just don't seem to care yeah and have the same stresses but then you have a car journey with one of those comics they're rather yeah and they're like oh i don't get
Guest:good reviews because people don't consider what I do to be art.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, no, we're all doing that to ourselves.
Marc:Yeah, a lot of us, except for the ones that, like, there are guys in America, and I'm sure there are guys that, where you just realize, like, they're just getting away with something.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And they're making a lot of fucking money, and they don't give a fuck.
Marc:They're not trying to do art.
Marc:It's shallow shit, but they're really good at it.
Marc:That's the problem.
Marc:There's a skill set of being an entertainer, especially a comedian, that if you're just a guy that wants to get away with it...
Marc:You know, which is, like, if you think about why a lot of people get into these jobs, whether they be musician or comic, it's either to get girls or not work, really.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:It's a rare thing, in a way, for a comic.
Marc:You know, they'll pay lip service to Richard Pryor, Bill Hicks, or whoever, you know, Stuart Lee.
Marc:You know, but, you know, clearly, you know, whatever that influence might have been, they journey far away from that.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:You know.
Marc:But it's about intent.
Marc:And it sounds like the pressure you put on yourself, and as I did too, because I'm a cultured guy, or I aspire to having an impact on a lasting or at least a deeper level, is that there was an art to it.
Marc:What made you think that way?
Marc:I mean, the music, it sounds like you were well on your way, that you decided who your heroes were.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, basically...
Guest:real obsession early on with classic albums and like I just loved
Guest:just like there's something about an album that has resonated through generations and means that much to people and you listen to it and feel like you're, it's something communal with all those people who ever listened to it.
Guest:And, and there's these magical moments that have been caught, especially when it's music and this, you know, I love all the stories about that bit was an accident and that bit was, you know, they got that sound from doing this and it was so, yeah, it could have been so fleeting and they were lucky to capture it.
Guest:All that stuff.
Guest:And there was just something life-affirming and...
Guest:I don't know, just sort of magical about those things.
Guest:And then I wanted... For music, mostly.
Guest:Yeah, for music.
Guest:And that's what I wanted.
Guest:If I was in a band, I wanted to make an album that would be perfect.
Guest:And every track is amazing.
Guest:And the whole thing works as a journey.
Guest:And then I would also get that way about films and TV shows and the very few books that I've read.
Guest:But like, you know...
Guest:And then we're doing stand-up.
Guest:At the beginning, it was just to do it and let's try and learn this and get better at it.
Guest:But definitely what I wanted to do from the time I started doing stand-up was solo shows.
Guest:And I wanted to do hour-long solo shows and go to the Edinburgh Festival and do an hour just me.
Guest:And I wasn't very interested in doing a 20-minute spot.
Guest:at a club and that's not and I understand like when I listen to comics like you got a comedy store t-shirt on and when I listen to comics like talk about those kind of venues and the legacy and the stories and the people there and
Guest:I love it.
Guest:And I think like, oh, yeah, you know, those moments are incredibly special.
Guest:And that is a craft in and of itself.
Guest:And there's so much there.
Guest:But I just wasn't naturally.
Guest:Naturally, all I was thinking was, well, we're all trying to write an hour, right?
Guest:We're all trying to do these solo shows.
Marc:Well, the difference is that, like, I think in America, you want to do an hour so you can headline in a general sense.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:That like it was about that first hour.
Marc:How do you get to the first hour so you can do the job?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Of headliner.
Marc:Whereas I think the benefit of that sort of Edinburgh sensibility is that, you know, the job is like I got to get an hour solo show so I can get the attention and then tour the solo show.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And like.
Guest:Also, it's like Edinburgh, the first day of Edinburgh, especially if you're a new comic, it's so exciting.
Guest:If you've got a solo show on there, because the first day, suddenly it doesn't matter what has been going on the last year.
Guest:Everyone is at the starting line at the same point.
Guest:And I hate to illustrate it like it's a race or it's a competition, but it feels like I could have...
Guest:I could be the talk of this festival and no one knows who I am right now.
Guest:But by the end, like everyone could be going to see my show.
Guest:And it is just based on the quality of if I really work hard and I make this show as good as possible is how I thought in my head.
Guest:And I know that's not always true.
Guest:There might be comedians listening to this who are like,
Guest:i have taken incredibly honed shows to edinburgh and everyone ignored me yeah um so there is there is luck involved and there can be bad luck with venues and times and all that stuff but and also who the hell knows what makes people like people who knows yeah but i definitely i would i would start working on my show in september yeah and then take it to edinburgh in august and the whole year would be working on the show and i do i have a lot of bad club sets and i would do some pieces with
Guest:with bits and pieces and trying new material out, no matter what the gig was.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And... For the sole intention of putting... You'd have to try it piecemeal, right?
Guest:You'd have to say, like, this chunk, and then I'm going to go... Yeah, this bit's not working at the minute.
Guest:Every time I do a work in progress, this 20 isn't working.
Marc:But you never just get a theatre and work it as an hour or improvise?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But then, like, when I was... You know, most of my diary at that point, when I was starting out, was still 20-minute sets.
Guest:And so...
Guest:i'm quite badly paid 20 minute sets so i thought i'm not being paid much so i may as well get something out of this that means that i get to go away and like right i've got i've that bit's better i've solved that problem because i don't want there to be a 10 minute lull in the show where the material's not as good right now that didn't mean that there wasn't those moments in the show but in my head that's what i was like i really don't ignore that bit and go ah that's
Guest:yeah that's fine that that's not as good as the rest of it the rest of it's good you know and so and then you know i'd have really sometimes i do gigs abroad i'm only going to bahrain to do a bunch of gigs with some comics when i was writing the undercover cop show yeah and inexplicably in front of a bunch of british expats
Guest:in a rugby club choosing to go out and say I was an undercover cop.
Guest:And of course, just absolutely eating shit for the whole set and coming off like, well, they were never going to, that was, you were never going to get anything out of that.
Guest:That was stupid.
Guest:But in my head, I was like, all I want to do at the minute is crack this undercover cop bit.
Guest:So I'm not going to bother doing anything else.
Guest:I don't necessarily have that attitude now, but like definitely back then I was like, what counts is as that month.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In the year where I can really go and get people talking a little bit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But in a way, it seems that in that model, the European model, that's also how you're going to make your living for the year.
Marc:A good chunk of it.
Guest:And also, in terms of enjoying it, we're talking about, you know, how much we don't enjoy it sometimes.
Guest:But also, equally, I love it.
Guest:I love standard.
Guest:I love doing standard.
Guest:I love writing it and developing it.
Guest:And the only time, the main thing that makes me love it is doing the work.
Guest:And so, like, if I'm not...
Marc:Or making the work work.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:And just actually feeling like I've improved.
Guest:This is going better.
Guest:And so that was how I would enjoy gigs as well because I knew that the most enthusiastic I would ever be after a gig is when I'd solved a problem or got a new bit and it worked.
Guest:And then that was what got me excited about stand-up in the first place.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Was that.
Guest:when you do but like when you're doing like your commitment to to the undercover carpet was that you knew that was going to be the framework of the whole hour kind of but in at the start oh yeah like it was just um stick with the it was trying to just follow the thing that you whatever is inside you you want to do that
Guest:you think that's funny for some reason it's not working now but trust that it's funny so like in those netflix shows that the i think the last routine in it in the fourth show is me with a i've got a wooden duck and i hold it at the audience i've got my back to them i'm doing a very long monologue and um that was actually my second edinburgh show because that show's made of a bunch of little bits from past shows
Guest:And my first end of the show was just like, you know, often it's just the best of for most newcomers.
Guest:You just do, here's my best material.
Guest:And you kind of hate it by the end because you're very sick of all the stuff.
Guest:And I wanted to do something different.
Guest:I remember doing a gig with that duck and...
Guest:a 10 minute spot and trying to find what was funny about the duck and all I knew was that I'd stolen this duck from a pub and I wanted to do something with it on stage and I didn't know what it was and I was trying to riff about it and talk about it and I did a thing about I feel guilty about stealing it I can't look it in the eyes and I turned my back so I wasn't looking at the duck and only the audience were looking at the duck and it was a silence and no one was laughing but my friend David Trent who's a comedian was on the bill and I came off and it was incredibly helpful he just he kind of
Guest:said that and then he kind of mimed holding the duck at the audience and looking away from he went that's funny and it just really helped yeah so i was like yeah that is and no one was laughing even even you weren't laughing david right but like but
Guest:There's something in that, and it is funny.
Guest:And it was a very, very helpful moment of going like, okay, every show now, whatever the thing you have that feeling about, just do that.
Guest:So the undercover cop thing was just like, there's something funny about telling them I'm an undercover cop.
Guest:And it wasn't going well from the start.
Guest:Because it was just going to be a routine about just...
Guest:I'm an undercover cop and one little routine and then move on to some other stuff because that's all my shows have been before that was bit bitty bits and eventually it was stumbling along just carry on saying it sure for the whole thing and actually it doesn't have to be a routine
Guest:right do you write but like do you write on stage do you yeah i mean that's sort of the way i do it but so you don't write it all out no no and like you know i've considered like recently since like starting up again and going like maybe you should go back to because i used to write stuff out and my second end of the show uh which is mainly what that fourth netflix show is made of yeah i sat down and wrote it all and it was
Guest:Also, it was like, for whatever reason, that year, that was the easiest thing for me to do.
Guest:And I just found I'd sit down and get so much done.
Guest:I was like, well, this is how I work now.
Guest:I sit down and write everything.
Guest:And this is great.
Guest:And in my show after that, I tried to do that.
Guest:And it was like...
Guest:it was just hellish sitting there and trying to think of stuff and suddenly I couldn't yeah I hated that show and which one uh it wasn't on the it was like some of the routines made it into the fourth Netflix show but uh it was a show where I mainly spent the majority of it defending Yoko Ono for the whole show and that hasn't ended up anywhere you won't see that anywhere oh I see so this is in Edinburgh my third my third show in Edinburgh okay
Marc:But also, I don't know.
Marc:I'll write out things.
Marc:I mean, I've got pages and pages of shit, but it looks like that.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And it's helpful, but I don't abide by it.
Marc:There's some part of me that once I see it on paper, it's sort of dead or something.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:If it's on paper and I remember it and I say it out loud on stage, it sounds like I'm reciting something.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I'm not communicating with them.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so much of it is I have to be actually communicating with the people in the room.
Marc:Right, leave the opening for, you know, something to happen.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I imagine it probably, you're saying that you wrote out a lot of the stuff that was the heavy, the show that you took the biggest emotional risks.
Guest:No, so that one wasn't written out.
Guest:Yeah, you can't, right?
Marc:That one was just.
Marc:Because you don't even know if you can say it.
Guest:Work in progress, not wanting to do that show in the first place, wanting to do a show that was about the best year of my life instead, because I was, I just, you know, I'd had this whole thing.
Guest:Yes, I'd had this whole thing of, well, that's the worst year in my life, what I've just had, and I hated it.
Guest:So then I thought, well, obviously don't tell them that on stage, because that's not what you do.
Guest:as a you know you don't do that in your body so let's go out and do a show about the best year of your life and then maybe at the end you can reveal that you only wrote this show because you've recently had the worst year of life or whatever sure and i would go on work in progress shows and try and talk about the best year of my life um and i would start talking about a happy memory and i'd very quickly
Guest:the jokes I was adding on stage or improvising on stage were about negative stuff about the present.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that was, and they just resonated with it more because I could tell that's where I genuinely was.
Guest:And then I started talking about the stuff that had happened.
Guest:And, uh,
Guest:and at the early gigs where that went well it was the most i'd ever enjoyed stand-up and i was suddenly like oh this is like a whole new thing and it's really exciting the honesty of it yeah yeah and then you know you then you try and intentionally do that show and then you have the gigs where you do an hour yeah and they're just really upset by it and you go i don't think i should have told them any of that who do you think you're upset though
Guest:Well, I mean, one guy in the front row, I really... You know, the show genuinely ended with me holding a crying audience member while the audience just filed out in silence.
Guest:And it was like... Holy shit.
Marc:This is at the end of that special?
Guest:Yeah, I'd said something.
Marc:I was talking about... I've got to watch... I'm such an idiot.
Guest:No worries.
Guest:I was talking about getting gas slipped by my agent and this guy had just had a similar experience with a family member.
Guest:And I was basically not...
Guest:I was not finding what was funny about the routine that night.
Guest:So I was just telling them the story.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was struggling to find a joke.
Guest:And he said, he's on the front row and he said, it's really hard, isn't it?
Guest:And I thought he meant comedy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because obviously defensive and I was like, what?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it's a working program.
Guest:I was trying to, he went, no, I mean, that kind of situation you're talking about is really hard.
Guest:And I was like,
Guest:Oh yeah, and then he started saying, I've been through something similar and then burst into tears.
Guest:And then I just instinctively was like, give the guy a hug because I don't really know.
Guest:And then you're like, should I be doing this?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:And then we kind of went, do you know what, everyone, let's just... There's another show got to start here in a second and I just think we're best off.
Guest:We're not going to recover.
Guest:I'm not going to find a big closer after this.
Guest:I think we should just all go and I'll stay and talk to this man for a while.
Guest:But stuff like that made me kind of go, okay, you...
Marc:you know i don't want to do that to people every night so i have to find a way of talking about this that doesn't do that to someone um but right but that's like um interesting because it's not like people were disappointed it was just that like you you didn't know if you could uh hold your side of the emotional interaction
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I'm like, because like, I'm doing, I'm talking about the death of a loved one.
Marc:And I'm talking about stuff and I can feel, but like, for me, I guess it is a matter of recovery.
Marc:And I think you probably could recover from it.
Marc:And that, you know, the only way to do that is to sort of, you know, kind of take them in and then, you know, kind of ease them out.
Marc:So the overall experience becomes sort of emotionally nuanced with, you know, like laughing and some sort of laughing, crying and then laughing.
Marc:But you want to make sure that crying is laughing, crying.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, so much of it is if if they want.
Guest:uh it's making them want what you're about to do yeah and um i think with that showing us in work in progress is they didn't necessarily come for that sort of stuff and i just suddenly do that i guess yeah how are you gonna know you make a change you can't tell people like you know in the promotion you can't be like this is not what you expect it's much different you might not like it come on down
Guest:then i had to rewrite it so that it to make them want it to find a middle you give them moments in it where and you think about that a lot yeah given moments that kind of gives them the option if we could go down that road we could go on that road and then having them go letting them realize that that road is more interesting and then doing that thing right so like just building it so you can go weave in and out
Guest:having it in there in the materials not literally offering it up to them the choice but like having having moments in the storytelling that makes them go oh yeah that would be good actually kind of sneaky and like with you like with what you're doing at the minute like you know they're i presume they already know yeah that's right everything before you sure so like they're going to be thinking if you if you try to do a show now that wasn't about that
Marc:Well, that's what I thought.
Marc:You know, like I tell them right away, like the whole premise of the bit I'm working on is like I thought about other options, but I'm a guy who talks about himself.
Marc:And I thought like maybe, you know, I do this whole bit about like maybe a serious one-person show with a Jewish theme, you know, like Marc Maron's Kaddish, A Prayer for the Dead, you know.
Marc:And I build that out.
Marc:And I know people who walk out of that show saying like, definitely wasn't funny, but I'm happy he did it.
Marc:He seemed to work through something.
Marc:And then I do a riff on like maybe a TED Talk.
Marc:But ultimately...
Marc:I talk about it, and as it begins, it's not essentially funny, but it does get funnier once I can establish that I went through this horrible pain.
Marc:Everybody's been in grief before, and it's very hard to deal with, and you can't control it, and most people don't really know what to do with it, the people around you.
Marc:But the revelation is most people don't have to do anything but witness it, but stand there.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Sometimes, you know, nothing's going to make you feel better.
Marc:But if I say, you know, basically the premise of that bit, that one piece is that I got tired of crying in front of strangers.
Marc:But, you know, they just stand there and you realize like, you know, when you're done crying, you're like, that was enough.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But yeah, they know that.
Marc:But I'm also operating on the premise, which I think that I haven't really heard you talk about because you're very conscious of taking care of your audience or at least presenting something that they're going to want to see, which I don't think about as much.
Marc:But I lean more on the premise of that.
Marc:These feelings are common.
Marc:And they're not feelings that many people talk about, whether they are grief or depression or all that.
Marc:But they're very common.
Marc:And I imagine there's a layer of resistance just in a British way.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I don't know how true that is because I don't live there.
Marc:But there's this idea that British people don't access that emotional dialogue.
Guest:Well, there's different stuff of like –
Guest:We're definitely more repressed, not like so repressed that it's like crazy.
Guest:But there are certain things in that show, like, you know, when I did that show in America, I had a whole bit about my therapist behaving inappropriately with me.
Guest:And everyone in the audience already knew what the lines are with therapy and what lines you shouldn't cross.
Guest:So when I did that routine in America, it would get so many more reactions all over the place, line after line, because they were like, they already saw...
Guest:oh she shouldn't have done that she shouldn't have said that stuff and so it was really fun yeah and then i'd do it in the uk and was like okay this is a different routine now because a lot of people in this audience don't know what the lines are they don't want to admit and that that person shouldn't have done that right shouldn't have said that so i kind of have to rewrite it and change it for for this explain it a little more
Guest:Yeah, or just, like, you know, I tried some stuff where I'd make fun of them for the fact that British people never go to therapy.
Guest:But then, like, it didn't really suit the show at that point in time.
Guest:And also, so much of that show was a tightrope walk deliberately of, like, you know, doing routines where I could be out of order to people, but then not being and managing to walk that route.
Guest:yeah line with it so it seemed a shame to get to the end and just have a jab at the audience for not going to therapy when it's um right there's a lot of problems in the uk of like you know waiting this for therapy people will not be able to afford it and you don't want to just tell the audience that you should be all going when that they can't all go when you've just done this show where you've tried to be as mindful as possible right um so there was that as well like you know that's right not hold their hand too much for all of this and just
Marc:And what about like, because like I know in the last one, there is politics and we do have a sort of an issue that I think you addressed.
Marc:And I think what you were doing was essentially a character for a minute or some extension of you.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:A character that lives within somehow.
Marc:But there is sort of a tribalization of a way of thinking that's happening both in comedy and in politics that is problematic and fascistic.
Marc:And I don't think a lot of the comics who are towing that line realize how easily kind of co-opted they are by fascists.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And, you know, it's a real, it's fucking a problem.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:In that, you know, this group of people that thinks they're somehow championing, you know, speech are really sort of, you know, trying to dictate what comedy is.
Marc:And a lot of the more people of your ilk are people who are doing something that they see as more creative and sensitive and tolerant.
Marc:or at least empathetic, are sort of, you know, just being bullied by virtue of the existence of this momentum.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I don't know, what's it like in the States at the minute with that?
Marc:Well, it's just like there is no, like, there's this idea that's sort of like of anti-wokeness that I don't even know really what that means other than a lack of tolerance, you know, a lack of faith in democracy, a lack of,
Marc:the need to be empathetic or to see that you know I get it there was a time where everybody was sort of on the same page culturally where you could say things like you know words are just words but in a world where everything is fragmented and small bubbles are existing to nourish and maintain communities everything is sort of relative to some sort of assault and can be I think you know kind of integrated and talked about but ultimately look man you know
Marc:People don't say, you know, oriental.
Marc:They don't say, you know, there's no reason you can't evolve past tranny.
Marc:People have been complaining like that since the beginning of entertainment.
Marc:But I think in an emotional and cultural perspective,
Marc:and an economic bubble economy where everybody lives in their own little worlds and and and there's no that the only approach to creating a common language with any sort of kind of momentum is the bad guys yeah everyone else is just trying to nurture their world and and and find their audience whereas the broader picture is not about like let's all be together it's like you know you babies
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And it's happened.
Marc:I don't know how noticeable it is to everybody, but I realize that whatever resistance there should be to that culturally or even comedically is fragmented and not really there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's just people trying to do their work in the shadow of this shit.
Guest:I mean, anyone who's like, anytime I meet someone who doesn't do comedy, especially if they're
Guest:older than me by however many years like the the first question they ask when they find out i'm a comedian is are you worried about what you can and can't say anymore uh and that's how they think that comedy is now they think it's all that and and the weird thing about it seems so babyish to me really that there's the whole the main
Guest:argument by a lot of people who support this kind of comedy that punches down a lot or whatever is that they they make out like it's a freedom of speech issue and people are trying to silence them and stop them from saying no one is saying
Guest:what you what you have said uh that should be against the law and you can't you should be thrown in prison if you can't say right exactly but it's like it's such so it's such a weird argument it's like if i went up to a stranger or even a friend and just pulled their hair really hard and hurt them and they went don't do that and i'll go oh what i'm gonna go to prison now for doing that you know it's such a weird jump clearly what i've done is hurtful to you it hurt you it was malicious it wasn't cool
Guest:But no one's threatening to throw me in prison or take away my right to poor people's air.
Guest:But they're allowed to ask me, do not do that.
Guest:It hurts.
Guest:And it seems so bizarre to me.
Guest:And that's the only reason I wrote a routine about it was – well, there was a number of reasons.
Guest:But definitely the initial reason was like this will be an actual comedy routine and not just something I talk about in interviews or stuff.
Guest:It's because it seemed –
Guest:It's absurd, their attitude to it.
Guest:And so therefore, I can put it in my stand-up show because it's so illogical, this argument that keeps on getting put up for it and seems funny to me.
Marc:And it really comes down to who's really threatened by this.
Marc:To me, it indicates a peculiar lack of intelligence around this sort of...
Marc:it's a right-wing trip, man.
Marc:It's not like Lenny Bruce.
Marc:It's not moving the culture forward to try to create more tolerance by diminishing the power of stereotypes and names.
Marc:I mean, the intention of that was to get everyone on a level playing field.
Marc:The intention of this is something very different, but I don't think a lot of the people that engage in it go back that far or think it through that much is what I mean.
Marc:So like in what you're saying, you can say whatever you want.
Marc:There just might be consequences.
Marc:And you either have to live with that or sadly what's happened because it's not about bringing people together anymore is that – or just talk to people that want to talk like that.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Marc:And so that in and of itself empowers a sort of anti-democratic sensibility.
Guest:And also it's hard to – so if you're a stand-up –
Guest:And you are on either side of this argument or whatever.
Guest:Say you're on the side that we're both on and how we see things.
Guest:Having a conversation with the people who don't agree with you on your podcast, inviting them on your podcast or going on their podcast.
Guest:Because of the way the internet is now and algorithms, you're assisting that person's career and giving them a platform and helping them.
Guest:So you're not just having... Right.
Guest:So you're kind of stuck between this thing of going, well, the only people who are going to do podcasts together or interviews together or TV shows together are people who agree with each other.
Guest:And I talk to comedians I disagree with...
Guest:offstage about stuff and I'd be friends with people who I don't agree with and like have those conversations but I wouldn't necessarily go come on a podcast with me and I'll give you that platform to say this because then you feel that suddenly it's not just that you're having that chat and it'll be because there's a real opportunity there to have an interesting conversation and maybe a useful conversation and one that could be helpful and could change people's minds but
Guest:um because that's what a lot of us are yearning for now because it seems like you know we're living in this world that doesn't make any sense to us and why are people following this but um but you go as soon as i have that person on all it's going to do is boost their career they're not going to change and it's just going to give them more more people these ideas and these are very dangerous
Marc:yeah you're gonna get beat up and and and and they're you know and they're gonna get excited and then not only is it like not giving them a platform but then you're gonna have to deal with you know who knows how much shit on social media problems and uh platforms and for how long and like you know i don't know how you're built for that kind of thing i mean like it it you know i've learned how to deal with that shit if i say something and then i get it you know just like
Marc:And I don't push it too far.
Marc:But then I start to wonder.
Marc:And then I start to question my own.
Marc:And I'll talk about it on my podcast.
Marc:But there is such a division of audience that it really has come down to this idea like anti-wokeism and these sort of like, I can say whatever I want.
Marc:It's like...
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I mean, you definitely can, but it's almost hackneyed.
Marc:There's no risk to it.
Marc:And I think that's why a lot of it's become appealing to sort of like mediocre comics and mediocre minds is that it gives you an ideology.
Marc:And it also gives you an excuse for why you may not get work.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:That's more often than not the root of it a lot of the time.
Guest:sometimes it happens with obviously there's massively successful comedians who have been doing it lately but i think it still comes from you know we've been talking a lot on this episode about our own insecurities on stage and how we feel with it and not every comic acknowledges that within themselves i think every comic has it yeah but not every comic goes i don't think i'm good enough and so this is how that manifests on stage sometimes when i act out
Guest:And I think there's a lot of comedians who don't acknowledge that in themselves or constantly convince themselves that the audience are the problem.
Guest:They're the idiots.
Guest:Them themselves as a comedian is completely in the right and everyone's against them.
Guest:And they're not reflecting on themselves very much.
Guest:And then they say those things.
Guest:uh because they're oh i blame this group for i'll blame you know because they might do it you know they do a routine without thinking often you know the genesis of it if you like trace it back for a lot of these comedians and you find the thing that started it it's not like a pattern it's not something they were obsessed with they just did they did a joke that they thought oh that'll be funny but their own right yeah their own life experience and their own meant that they were blinkered to this you know this other group's um you know
Guest:way of how their life experience has made a joke they thought would be funny then usually a bunch of people will go here's why that is actually quite harmful to a lot of people and then because they've got the same insecurities we do
Guest:but they don't go i would go yeah oh shit yeah well thank you for telling me i shouldn't have said that and i see it i'll sort that out yeah and it's more helpful yeah you know i had a routine in that show where i had the routine about transphobic comedians i also had a routine about um periods uh syncing up oh yeah in the same house
Guest:And originally I was very gendered with the language about that of like, you know, women have periods and men don't.
Guest:And then, and I didn't see the thing there and someone came up to me after the show and went, hey, it's nice you're doing that bit at this start about transphobic comedians.
Guest:But if you're doing that, you should know this bit here where you're saying, you're basically saying, you know, women have periods and that's a definitive thing.
Guest:that's kind of that goes against that and doesn't really make sense and um you know i think there are some there's some people who would go fuck off like like like oh what oh i can't do anything right i did that bit at the start and now you're giving me shit for that and nitpicking oh fuck this but but you have to kind of go because there's nothing to lose there
Guest:You just have to go, okay, cool.
Guest:Balance it.
Guest:Thanks.
Guest:Change the language.
Guest:Done.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Still works.
Marc:Maybe even better.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Doesn't hurt me in any way.
Guest:Doesn't hurt anyone else.
Marc:And that's it.
Marc:It's a sensitivity thing.
Marc:And you have to sort of decide.
Marc:And you can make the decision to be like, I'm not going to change that.
Marc:And I definitely do get slightly belligerent at times.
Marc:yeah i still possess that idea that my first reaction is like no you sure and then i got to walk it back it's just it's the same thing as you feel after you on a heckler you're like and maybe yeah i'm just gonna have to suck this up and get you know and let it go well the main problem at the minute i think with this kind of stuff is um those of us who thought we were goodies right who thought we were good guys yeah
Guest:And then we didn't realize that so much of because, you know, the world is just geared towards people and privileged people.
Guest:And we didn't realize it.
Guest:And then we got told, actually, that behavior that you think is completely normal fucks this entire group of people.
Guest:And because we see ourselves as the goodies.
Guest:our first reaction i definitely had this yeah is i'm one of the good guys fuck you this whole thing and then uh i learned into um it's like the whole jk rowling thing is just like if you look back on that timeline of her how she got to where she is now yeah
Guest:Is basically her quite proudly announcing Dumbledore's gay, by the way, everybody.
Guest:And then people kind of going, okay, that's a nice gesture, but the books are done and no point is Dumbledore gay in the book.
Guest:So you talk about him.
Guest:So, you know, it's nice that you've told us, by the way, Dumbledore's gay, but it would have been cool if like...
Guest:the book said he was and, uh, yeah, he could have had a boyfriend at some point and that could have been normal, normalized and cool.
Guest:Like we would, that would have been better.
Guest:So, and then instead of kind of going, okay, I hear you.
Guest:She went, I'm the fucking good guy.
Guest:Go fuck yourself.
Guest:And it's just got to be this thing that is slowly over time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just escalated to someone who is deliberately antagonizing this entire community.
Guest:Um,
Guest:um because she was like because she she thought she did something good but that's why now in like so many films yeah and very mainstream films as well the villain in the films isn't it used to be a cartoonish just out and out baddie yeah who just wanted to be bad and wanted to upset everyone and wanted to um to cause pain
Guest:but now especially since like social media and looking at people differently and a lot of the bad guys are they all see themselves as the good guy and that's the important most marvel films like thanos who's like obviously one of the biggest you know movie villains in years you can see it from his point of view and why he thinks that what he's doing is good that he's not like
Guest:Hey, I'm the bad guy.
Guest:He's thinking interesting.
Guest:This is because we're starting to see that a bit more with like these people who like are causing a lot of pain.
Guest:They don't think that they think they're the victims.
Marc:Like it's even that Elvis movie is done from the point of view of Colonel Parker.
Marc:sure right yeah yeah and it's uh the most exploitive fucking horrendous yeah but it's it's most of it it's really just his point of view his side of the story you know played against you know lerman's you know kind of brilliant depiction of of the talent of a guy yeah yeah so you know those are the two sides you've got to deal with yeah all right but we're not going to solve that yeah this is good talking to you man yeah you too
Marc:James Acaster in a hotel room, talking, getting down to it.
Marc:He's announcing tour dates today.
Marc:You can go to jamesacaster.com for tickets and venue info.
Marc:And hang out for a second.
Marc:I'll tell you some more stuff.
Marc:So listen, Brendan and I talked for about an hour.
Marc:We went through my entire filmography, title for title.
Marc:I didn't even know I did that much.
Marc:And we'll do this in the future to talk about actors and directors, but this time we went over the marinography, which was engaging, kind of getting that memory working.
Marc:Here's a little taste of it.
Marc:Let me give you a taste.
Marc:Here's a bump.
Marc:Have a bump of the marinography.
Guest:How did this thing happen, that you doing the Bob Dylan like a Rolling Stone video?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Weren't you part of that?
Guest:I was not, no.
Guest:It just happened.
Marc:Fuck, I don't even remember, but that was like a big deal.
Marc:It was this montage of people singing, I don't even remember which song.
Guest:Like a Rolling Stone.
Guest:It was an interactive video.
Guest:You could go to the website and switch the channels on a TV.
Guest:And every channel you went to was synced up with the person on that channel doing the song, lip syncing the song to whatever moment it was at.
Guest:It was a big deal.
Guest:It was you and like the Pawn Stars and Drew Carey on The Price is Right.
Marc:All right, maybe it wasn't that big a deal.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So if you haven't subscribed to the full Marin on WTF Plus to get all our bonus content, plus the full WTF archives, click on the link in the episode description or go to WTFPod.com and click WTF Plus.
Marc:This week, I'll be in Columbus, Ohio at the Southern Theater on Thursday, August 4th.
Marc:Indianapolis, Indiana, I'm at the Old National Center on Friday, August 5th.
Marc:Louisville, Kentucky at the Baumhart Theater this Saturday, August 6th.
Marc:I'll be at Largo at the Coronet in Los Angeles on August 10th.
Marc:I'll be back at Dynasty Typewriter in L.A.
Marc:on August 14th for perhaps a TikTok crowd work show for my introduction into TikTok.
Marc:Just cut it up, man.
Marc:Just do quick shots.
Marc:Get the kids in.
Marc:Get the kids into the shows.
Marc:Hey, do me, do me.
Marc:That's what they say.
Marc:Bust my balls.
Marc:I'm here for the ball busting.
Marc:Lincoln, Nebraska at the Rococo Theater on August 18th.
Marc:Des Moines, Iowa at the Hoyt Sherman Place on August 19th.
Marc:And Iowa City, Iowa at the Inglert Theater on August 20th.
Marc:In September, I'm in Tucson, Arizona, Phoenix, Arizona, Boulder, Colorado, and Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Marc:In October, I'm in London, England, and Dublin, Ireland.
Marc:Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all dates and ticket info.
Marc:I think I can take a vacation in Vancouver.
Marc:So I can look around.
Marc:Find me a place to settle down in a few years.
Marc:Can you dig it?
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Here we go.
Bye.
Guest:Thank you.
guitar solo
Yeah.
guitar solo
guitar solo
Thank you.
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey in La Fonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.
Marc:Cat angels.
Marc:Cat angels.
Marc:Cat angels.