Episode 1348 - Orny Adams
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening this is wtf my podcast welcome to it um how how are you you all right i want to clear something up a few people notice this and i i'm bad with names
Marc:Echperigan.
Marc:Naomi Echperigan.
Marc:I know I said Echperigan.
Marc:I know, because it's not a matter of disrespect.
Marc:It's not even a matter of not listening.
Marc:I just get something in my head, and I can barely remember names to begin with, and I lock in.
Marc:It's ridiculous.
Marc:I have a woman that's going to be opening for me a bit out in the road.
Marc:Lara.
Marc:And I still can't do it right.
Marc:Lara.
Marc:Why is that so hard?
Marc:Lara Bites.
Marc:Lara.
Marc:Lara, Lara.
Marc:Lara, Lara.
Marc:I can't...
Marc:There's just some things I can't, I don't know if it's old or it's a blame glitch.
Marc:Is it a blame glitch?
Marc:It's a brain glitch.
Marc:A blame glitch?
Marc:Fuck me.
Marc:Naomi Ickperrigan.
Marc:I'm sorry to her and to the people that that annoyed.
Marc:It annoys me more in retrospect.
Marc:You know, it's hard to Ickperrigan, Ickperrigan.
Marc:It's slight, but a name's a name.
Marc:Look, today though, listen to me.
Marc:Today, I'm going to talk to Orny Adams.
Marc:Now, this is sort of a big deal.
Marc:It's a big deal in a lot of ways.
Marc:In retrospect, now, after I've done it, it's a big deal.
Marc:So Orny Adams has really, I didn't have a beef with him.
Marc:But, man, did he annoy me and rub me the wrong way.
Marc:And, man, was I sort of, you know, kind of just really shut down around him and a bit of a bully to him in a way.
Marc:I just really tried to keep him at arm's length.
Marc:He really got under my skin.
Marc:And the thing is,
Marc:I've never denied the fact that he can do comedy.
Marc:The guy can kill.
Marc:You know, he kills this guy.
Marc:But for a decade or more, maybe two decades, he just every time I saw him, I was like, oh, I can't take it.
Marc:I can't take it.
Marc:Why?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Because he's a little bit, there's something about him that's fundamentally a little annoying.
Marc:But I never really talked to him at length.
Marc:And look, he was in that documentary comedian, which did him no favors.
Marc:But I just decided, I mean, some of you know him from that.
Marc:Most of you know, a lot of the older people know him from the comedian documentary, Jerry Seinfeld doc.
Marc:You know, he was the annoying guy.
Marc:Uh, but you know, we all had different feelings about, you know, the attention he got during the shooting of that with you were in New York watching it happen.
Marc:But anyways, maybe, you know, him from MTV, uh, the MTV series Teen Wolf.
Marc:Now this is, this is, you know, his, this is bread and butter.
Marc:But he can fucking kill with the stand-up.
Marc:But he really fucking annoyed me.
Marc:And there's other people that really fucking annoy me.
Marc:And it's like, why bother even saying that or acting?
Marc:It doesn't matter.
Marc:He doesn't have any impact on my life.
Marc:So I realized recently that it's like, dude, we're getting older.
Marc:Let's make this right.
Marc:Let's figure it out.
Marc:Let's have him over and talk it out.
Marc:And I got much more than I bargained for about really the impact that doing that documentary, which does not make him look good.
Marc:And I used to hand out this article about him that was written for Harper's about the Montreal Fest.
Marc:I think it was called six minutes of funny.
Marc:I used to have it on my hard drive because I think it was one of the greatest articles written about a comic in a horrendous way.
Marc:But but it was very honest.
Marc:And I brought that up like it was a positive thing during this interview.
Marc:And he's like, oh, God, like this guy has had this.
Marc:This is not cancel culture.
Marc:This is some other.
Marc:This is not doing something wrong.
Marc:This is something hanging over a guy because it made him look bad and it made people think he was annoying and difficult to work with.
Marc:And it's stuck.
Marc:So this documentary he did like 20 years ago has hung over him.
Marc:And when we talk about it, I don't know how he...
Marc:dealt with it really well i do i'm going to talk to him about it but i mean but it's like he couldn't get out from under it and it's still sort of happening i mean and i'm sort of yeah i'm part of that i mean a lot of us comics are like you know there's something look you know he can do the job but he's like there's something unnerving about the guy very earnest works very hard very intense but you know get it's it's he's there's something about him
Marc:And the documentary kind of solidified it.
Marc:And I don't think he's had an opportunity to really give his side of it or or talk about it, frankly.
Marc:And it just sort of that happened here with me.
Marc:I didn't expect that.
Marc:I didn't know what to expect.
Marc:And I actually ended the thing and then we had to turn it back on because there was more.
Marc:It just ended up.
Marc:And I was really concerned that I would bust his balls or bully him or be a dick to him, which I've been for 20 years.
Marc:I had to fight it.
Marc:I laughed, cried instead.
Marc:I kind of laughed, cried instead.
Marc:But anyways, in terms of being a comedian interview, this is a big one.
Marc:It's a big one.
Marc:And I just said, like, fuck it.
Marc:I'm going to have him on and get to the bottom of this.
Marc:All right, look.
Marc:So I'm back from Albuquerque and I'm flabby as fuck.
Marc:I never feel great.
Marc:And I don't know if you know this, but like seven or eight months ago, it's a long time ago.
Marc:I went to some holistic practitioner, a Chinese medicine doctor who's not Chinese.
Marc:But I got referred to him.
Marc:A guy knew a guy.
Marc:I think it was Flanny at Largo said, I can't remember which celebrity friend of his went to this doctor to just get a tune up.
Marc:Look, I'm not all in Western medicine.
Marc:I have an open mind.
Marc:But I also know that you have to have a regular doctor and then you can do this nonsense.
Marc:And I'm not saying that in a condescending way.
Marc:But
Marc:But I went to this doctor with the general.
Marc:He's like, what's right away?
Marc:The guy's in my face.
Marc:He's like, what can I, what is it?
Marc:What's going on with you?
Marc:He's like, he's all in, you know, he's like, he's charming.
Marc:He's doing this dance.
Marc:It's like, what can I, what are we going to fix?
Marc:Where are we going with this?
Marc:What's going on?
Marc:Tell me your life.
Marc:What do you got?
Marc:And it's like, it's a lot of juice.
Marc:It's a lot of sales juice.
Marc:But we lay it out.
Marc:I said, well, I don't know.
Marc:I just don't feel great.
Marc:You know, I'm 58.
Marc:And I told him, you know, we went over some of the, from my health records, I brought all my tests to him.
Marc:So this was the idea that this guy's going to do every test of everything to check all the levels of all things.
Marc:This is the this is the sham of it.
Marc:But also, look, man, if you believe you believe.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I'm not shitting on the guy.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I like the attention.
Marc:I enjoy taking tests.
Marc:I enjoy numbers of like what are the tests show?
Marc:So finally, all these results come in and he's got this stack of papers and he's going through the papers.
Marc:He's got a magic marker and it's a great stick.
Marc:It's a great stick.
Marc:He's like, look, this is going on.
Marc:This is going on.
Marc:This should be higher.
Marc:It's like, what does that mean?
Marc:It's like it could influence.
Marc:One of the good things, your genetic markers are OK because, you know, you got some of this, but you don't got that.
Marc:This balances out.
Marc:But
Marc:And then he starts going through these papers like, look, your level's a little high.
Marc:We could change that.
Marc:This can use to come up with glucosamine.
Marc:This is a trimectophan.
Marc:You know, and it's sort of like, you know, you're a little that could be better if we added a little this because this has a profound effect on, you know, how you move your your thumb.
Marc:It's just like it gets very specific.
Marc:A lot of papers.
Marc:He's going through them.
Marc:He's throwing the papers on the floor.
Marc:He's saying, we got to get you on this.
Marc:We got to get you on that.
Marc:And I'm just like, and I'm looking at him, and I think he kind of knows.
Marc:He kind of knows that I know that he's fucking, you know, I know he's hustling me.
Marc:I know he's scamming me a little bit.
Marc:But this is it, man.
Marc:This is the sales pitch.
Marc:I got a lot of papers.
Marc:I got a magic marker.
Marc:I got numbers.
Marc:I got indicators.
Marc:I know what these things mean.
Marc:It's like you need more of this because this affects you that.
Marc:But I'm one of these people that even though I know I'm probably going to try it anyways.
Marc:It's like, I know you're fucking with me, but OK, fuck with me.
Marc:I don't think that's being a complete mark.
Marc:OK, I think there's a difference between like a guy going like, really?
Marc:Wow.
Marc:And all right.
Marc:Yeah, all right.
Marc:Yeah, I'll do it.
Marc:I'll try it.
Marc:It's not going to hurt me to try it.
Marc:There's a difference.
Marc:Full mark.
Marc:is no kidding so if i take it geez this is amazing so how did i how did i not know that i need to take you know 40 pills a day you know because all this stuff that that tone and this one is like that fuck that's a lot of bullshit and uh all right but let's do it i'm here i'm halfway in let's go the whole run
Marc:So now I'm out like two grand over the, you know, however many visits I've had and a bag full of supplements.
Marc:And I'm sitting there like an idiot taking them.
Marc:Some in the morning, some at night thinking what?
Marc:Thinking what am I waiting for?
Marc:And what whether he thinks I knew was onto his bullshit or not.
Marc:I'm sure given that those supplements probably cost him a nickel and that whatever it took to print that.
Marc:I paid for the test.
Marc:I paid for the visits.
Marc:I paid for the vitamins.
Marc:And I think he gets some back end on the fucking testing.
Marc:So that guy still walked away with a couple grand.
Marc:And me?
Marc:I had to fucking hover over a French fry tray and shitting it and then put that into a fucking cup of liquid of some kind.
Marc:I had to pee.
Marc:I had to take blood.
Marc:I had to, you know, yeah, a French fry tray.
Marc:That was how specific this was.
Marc:I don't even know what we learned from that.
Marc:And I'm sorry if it grossed you guys out.
Marc:All I know is that I'm taking a lot of supplements and I can honestly say I'm not sure I feel better.
Marc:And that guy just made a couple grand.
Marc:Who cares if I come back?
Marc:Look, Orny Adams, he's at the Hollywood Improv this weekend, July 15th and 16th.
Marc:His podcast is called What's Wrong with Orny Adams.
Marc:Get that wherever you get your podcast.
Marc:And this is me having a not tense, but at times awkward and revealing conversation with Orny Adams.
Marc:Where do you live?
Marc:Do you do a podcast?
Guest:I do.
Guest:You do?
Guest:I do.
Guest:We all do now, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, you get it.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:I started it.
Guest:I agree.
Guest:I agree.
Guest:And I actually commend you because I think it's remarkable.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:what you've accomplished now that I've tried it.
Guest:The one thing I've learned from doing my own podcast is I now have respect for the radio people that I shit on on the road for so many years.
Marc:It's true.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, it's a weird talent.
Marc:It's a specific talent.
Marc:I mean, I think I always had a certain amount of respect for the guys that did that well.
Marc:You know, there are guys that were annoying.
Marc:There's a lot of ego to it.
Marc:And, you know, God knows with people like you and I, you know, there's instantaneous ego battles with anybody assuming a position that we're like that.
Marc:And there's something particularly annoying about radio guys.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But when you were on one that worked, it was elevating.
Marc:I mean, I did morning radio for a year or two, right?
Marc:So to be on a morning crew where you gotta keep that juice going, and the thing that changed my mind about it was I knew when we had a guest on that the last thing you wanted was them to fuck up the momentum.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So if you've got a vibe going and a comic walks in, he's like, no, no, no.
Marc:It's like, oh, fuck.
Marc:Right.
Marc:He just fucked up the whole group.
Marc:So I had respect for the job, but some of them got a little shitty about podcasts.
Marc:So I still have a resentment towards the ones that are sort of like these podcasts.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:I agree.
Guest:So I do mine out of a, in my backyard, I've got a Shasta trailer, like a vintage, and I converted it into a podcast studio.
Guest:What is that, like an Airstream?
Guest:It's sort of, yeah.
Guest:You can look at Shasta.
Guest:It's a very mid-century modern, very cool.
Marc:So a trailer that you'd have to hook up to a hitch where you drive them?
Marc:Hitch.
Marc:Okay, I know what kind they're.
Marc:They're kind of like, they got a little curve to them, but they're not Airstream ones.
Marc:They're not fully curved, but they have a little curve on the top.
Guest:I haven't, to be honest with you, I haven't thought about the curvature that much.
Guest:Like, I haven't expected it.
Guest:I can just look at it.
Guest:You can look at it, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, okay, so you got it set up up there?
Guest:Yeah, and it's intimate and cool, but, you know, I don't do a lot of guess.
Guest:I'm sort of shy about that.
Guest:And you're not living in the trailer.
Guest:No, I'm not living in the trailer.
Guest:although people think i am it might come to that so i have it if it does come to that i'm ready yeah and it might yeah but here's the thing so i started doing it that's what i'm thinking of yeah it's got a little it's got a little curve on the back you know like yellow okay yeah like this kind of thing yeah okay okay yeah that's cool
Guest:But so when I do it, and you can help me with this, I'll sit there and talk to myself for an hour, which is really, that's borderline.
Guest:You're going crazy.
Marc:Well, that's the big trick, man.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That was the big shift for me is can you sit on a mic by yourself?
Marc:I mean, that really separates the men from the boys in broadcasting.
Marc:Can you be compelling by yourself on a mic, you know, alone?
Marc:For an hour.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I mean, you've decided that.
Guest:But he, okay, right.
Guest:And here's the thing.
Guest:So I do it and I go, that was great.
Guest:And then I go back and listen.
Guest:I go, I can't believe how uninteresting I am.
Guest:Like in the moment.
Marc:So it's finally you've realized.
Guest:I have.
Guest:I have.
Guest:All these years.
Guest:I thought I deserved more in this business.
Guest:I've come to realize I really don't.
Marc:I'm where I should be.
Marc:Oh, come on.
Marc:Your stand-up's always strong.
Marc:Thanks.
Marc:Yeah, but so do you find, what have you found from doing the podcast?
Marc:I mean, like, do people listen to it?
Marc:Maybe you shouldn't listen to yourself.
Guest:I think what I treat it as is sort of like a companion piece for my stand-up.
Guest:So if you enjoy my stand-up, this is me sort of dissecting it.
Guest:I think it's too serious.
Marc:So you're doing like, what do you call it?
Guest:Commentary on your bits?
Guest:Sometimes I am, and sometimes it's on the world.
Guest:Sometimes it's on crazy stories.
Marc:Do you play the bit and then do the... Sometimes I do, yeah.
Guest:Why does this amuse you so much?
Guest:Sometimes I have to break down something that went wrong or, you know, and that's what you're doing.
Guest:So you really know that isn't the theme of the podcast.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:But what's funny to me is that it's like it's just so up your own ass in a way.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And not in a bad way.
Marc:But I mean, but like, you know, what you're doing when you sort of sit there with your own bit and talk about the bit and where the bit comes from.
Marc:It's your own bubble.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I mean, you might be right.
Guest:It might be why no one's listening.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Listen, I'm open to criticism for sure.
Guest:This is what I've sort of figured out or deduced in life.
Guest:I'm good at one thing, according to me.
Guest:Is that true?
Guest:Stand-up comedy.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:Is it?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I believe that's all I'm capable of.
Marc:I don't know if I agree with you.
Marc:It might be all you do.
Marc:I'm the same way.
Marc:I mean, that's the thing I do.
Marc:But I imagine I'm capable of other things.
Marc:You're a bright guy.
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:I've tried a lot of other things.
Guest:Like what?
Guest:Whether it's creating shows, whether it's even relationships.
Guest:I'm good.
Guest:Stand up.
Guest:I'm in control.
Guest:I feel good.
Guest:And so why not discuss this on the podcast?
Guest:It's the only thing I can give the world.
Guest:is an explanation for what I'm doing up there.
Guest:But that's not the theme of the podcast.
Guest:I love you so much.
Guest:I just love, I knew you'd find something.
Guest:What are we, five minutes in?
Guest:The whole way, like this morning, I'm like, I better find an outfit that's not going to upset Mark.
Guest:I don't want to trigger him.
Guest:I don't want to upset him.
Marc:I was wondering what you were thinking coming over here, and I was sort of like, do you have anything you need to address?
Guest:We'll get to it in a second, but let me finish this.
Guest:When I initially created the podcast, What's Wrong with Orny Adams, I was going out on the road.
Marc:Was this before the problem with Jon Stewart?
Marc:Did I have a problem with Jon Stewart?
Marc:Jon Stewart?
Marc:No, no.
Marc:His show is called The Problem with Jon Stewart.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You both seem to be in your own echo chamber around your work.
Guest:You know, sometimes I discuss Jon's bits on my show, too, and I break them down.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I do.
Guest:Do you?
Guest:No, I don't.
Guest:I don't.
Marc:Yeah, that would mean you'd have to listen to him.
Guest:I didn't even know he had a podcast.
Marc:No, it's a TV show.
Marc:It was on fucking HBO.
Marc:I don't know if it's still on.
Marc:No one knew.
Marc:He's one of us now.
Marc:He's just walking among the marginally well-known mortals.
Marc:Happens fast.
Marc:It happens fast.
Marc:Well, he chose to try to come back.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Like, you know, why not go out of myth?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Why come back and have people go like, oh my God, what happened to that guy?
Guest:Right.
Guest:You got to do sort of like Letterman, but Letterman's sort of tiptoed back.
Marc:Well, yeah, but Letterman's just like an old beautiful soul now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's doing interviews outside.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He's a sweetheart.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, it's fortunate that you never got huge because-
Guest:Yeah, that's what I think.
Guest:I wouldn't be able to handle it.
Marc:Oh, gosh.
Marc:I wouldn't be able to handle it.
Marc:You could barely handle almost getting huge.
Guest:Barely huge I can handle, barely handle.
Guest:I could barely handle barely huge, yeah.
Guest:Okay, so what were you saying?
Guest:So I was going out on the road, and I was recording really interesting conversations.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:With who?
Guest:It would be like I would talk to drivers, and they always had interesting stories.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Sometimes they were coke dealers before they became drivers.
Guest:Sure, yeah.
Guest:Some of them have been arrested in jail, accused of murder.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'd sort of start talking to him and I had my Zoom just like you and I said, can I record this?
Guest:And then I would turn it into like these lofty sort of, I thought it was like NPR bits.
Guest:I'd do like interstitials in between.
Guest:It was at this moment, Sean realized, come on, you don't think this is going to be a hit?
No.
Marc:No, I mean, you tried stuff.
Marc:There's nothing wrong with trying stuff.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But you were doing it seriously, earnestly.
Guest:Yes, I was.
Guest:I was.
Guest:And it would take months to edit and then have music made for it.
Guest:I mean, I pumped a lot of money into it.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It reminds me of the process of you writing in that old movie.
Marc:That's how you approach everything.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, here's the good news.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It took me...
Guest:Barely succeeding.
Guest:Instead of saying failing, barely succeeding at a podcast to respect you, Mark.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:That's what it took.
Guest:I go, this is Mark Maron.
Guest:He did it.
Guest:God bless him.
Guest:You never respected me before that.
Guest:No, I did.
Guest:To be honest with you.
Marc:And we get back to, I know where you're leading into.
Marc:Why would you?
Marc:Why would you?
Marc:Why would you respect me?
Marc:I was so hard on you and such an asshole to you.
Guest:Well, we can discuss.
Guest:I'll preempt that by saying I have always respected your comedy.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I really do.
Guest:Well, thank you.
Guest:And so get into that because I want to hear what you have to say about it.
Guest:What?
Guest:About what?
Guest:Our relationship.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:Our friendship.
Marc:Well, I think, like, what it was, was, like, you know, it happened even before, like, I was annoyed by you before Comedian.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Like, before the movie.
Guest:You were, like, an early adapter.
Ha, ha, ha.
Marc:Yeah, I was.
Marc:But it was not, you know, I think when I look at it in retrospect, and I feel bad about it, but the thing was, I don't know that because you're sort of, you have a certain amount of fairly, you know, effective, you know, narcissistic blinders up, I'm not sure I was really landing any punches when I was being a dick to you.
Marc:I think you probably just thought, like, why is that guy being a dick to me?
Guest:Yeah, I couldn't figure it out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like I remember one time, one time we were at the improv, and I go, look at Mark, you came over to me and you were so nice to me.
Guest:And like you almost made it through being nice to me.
Guest:And then you walked, here's the dismount.
Guest:I go, he did it.
Guest:And then you turned around and you had to say something.
Guest:You had to, who are you imitating now, Bob Dylan?
Guest:Like you had to.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Yeah, what were you wearing?
Marc:Yeah, well.
Marc:What was it, the hat?
Guest:Maybe the hat, maybe.
Guest:I didn't know you followed my career so closely, the hat phase.
Marc:Well, I just remember you in the hat at Montreal.
Marc:It's not that I follow your career, but, like, I see you, and the thing of that, it's the same with, you know, Birbiglia, you know, for me.
Marc:You know, like, there's something that fundamentally annoys me about him.
Marc:And I don't know what it is.
Marc:I don't know if it's me.
Marc:It's not them.
Marc:But I've spent years in some ways honoring my feelings around people with just being a dick to them.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But what I don't understand, Mark, is why do you feel the need to say it?
Guest:Like, I think that too.
Guest:I go, look at Mark.
Guest:Who does he think he is?
Guest:John Lennon?
Guest:But I don't say it.
Guest:I think it.
Guest:We'd have to figure out how to say it to me.
Guest:But I wouldn't want to.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Well, because we're not like busting ball comics.
Guest:I've gotten more that way with certain people.
Marc:Well, there's certain people that I have that I could do it with, and they just get a kick out of it.
Marc:But it's not my nature, because I'm always a little too vicious.
Marc:Yeah, but there are certain guys that I could just bust balls with, and I'll take it from them.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:They're just like Godfrey.
Marc:I bust Godfrey's balls all the day long because he just gets a kick out of it.
Marc:But you're not going to get a kick out of it.
Marc:You're going to take it personally.
Guest:No, at this point, I don't think so.
Marc:Why wouldn't you say who you think is John Lennon?
Marc:You've never said anything mean to anybody?
Guest:Behind your back, I do.
Guest:The minute you leave, I call my crew, and I go, yeah, I got a Marin update.
Guest:Yeah, now I've upset him by my hat.
Marc:Tell me about your crew.
Guest:I got a crew.
Guest:Don't mess with my crew.
Guest:You got a crew?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:How many guys in the crew?
Guest:Between all of us, we have 1,000 listeners on all our podcasts.
Guest:That's my crew.
Marc:The Orny Adams crew?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, we all have our friends that we call after the Friday second show set where the audience sucks and nobody shows up.
Guest:You do?
Guest:You call people?
Guest:I used to.
Guest:I don't anymore.
Hmm.
Marc:If I have a woman in my life, I'll give it to them.
Marc:But generally, I kind of... It's weird, the club life.
Guest:Do you find that the women get it?
Guest:Get what?
Guest:When you complain about stand-up.
Marc:And I'll tell you why.
Marc:I'm only recently getting sort of more adept...
Marc:at properly empathizing for women, especially the ones I've been with, because I've not been the greatest guy in the world.
Marc:But as I get older and as I learn more things, I've gotten much better and I can see them as separate human beings and not just reciprocals for my garbage.
Marc:So whether they get it or not, I think they get struggle.
Marc:And most of the time, I'm...
Marc:i would say for the last decade or so uh you know i i'm generally with fans oh interesting yeah yeah because you want to be loved and that's the most i guess i kind of want to want to be loved but i like to be appreciated right uh and uh you know and also there's a shorthand to that because they know a lot about me right but it's a good way to lose fans too
Guest:Yeah, one at a time, but you have plenty to lose.
Guest:You have plenty to lose.
Guest:I see that as a liability when they adore you.
Guest:I'd rather be with somebody that knows nothing about comedy, doesn't care about comedy.
Guest:God forbid they bring up another comedian I can't stand and they think they're funny.
Guest:That's a nightmare.
Marc:Yeah, well, I have a problem with that sometimes.
Marc:It's not a nightmare, but I'll be like, really, Orny Adams?
Guest:Yeah, tell me why.
Guest:Why you're an early adapter of being annoyed by... Because I feel like there may be other people out there like you, but I think I divide.
Marc:There are.
Guest:There's my boys.
Guest:My crew.
Guest:Your crew?
Guest:Who's in that crew?
Marc:There's a lot of us, man.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:The Largo?
Guest:I'm sure the talk at Largo is that too.
Guest:The Largo.
Marc:Listen to you.
Marc:You've played there, haven't you?
Marc:No, I haven't.
Marc:You do fine there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What's the problem with the Largo?
Marc:Why do you think that's a separate world?
Guest:I'd love to do Largo.
Guest:Nobody's asked me.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Here's the truth.
Guest:I'm shocked I'm here right now.
Guest:Can you explain to me what I'm doing on your podcast?
Marc:I just wanted to connect.
Marc:I've been hard on you.
Marc:And I knew that no matter how fucking hard I've been on you, for no real reason other than you annoy me, that given the opportunity, you would come over here in a second.
Guest:Well, I did have a conversation with my agent.
Guest:I'm like, is this a setup?
Guest:They go, we don't think he does that to people, otherwise you wouldn't get guests.
Guest:But I also feel like there comes a point in your life, I feel like as you mature, we're not as competitive as we once were.
Guest:That's probably true.
Guest:You're more welcoming and we're probably more similar than dissimilar.
Guest:So when you looked at Arnie Adams in a hat, you said,
Marc:God damn it, that's me.
Marc:Well, no, I think that's true, and that's why I just texted my, you know, when I was talking to my producer.
Marc:Like, that usually is why.
Marc:I mean, I understand we probably grew up similarly.
Marc:You know, we're probably sort of, there's some sort of scramble to kind of put ourselves together in a way.
Marc:Something's missing.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And and and I think I identified your quest for selfhood, you know, through whatever means you had, whether it be hats or, you know, acting like other people or whatever as something I understood.
Guest:I mean, I think I was going through a sort of a dark period.
Guest:And so that's where that whole sort of when when was the dark?
Guest:This was after comedian.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Marc:Well, let's go back because I think the first time I started, like the first conversations I remember having about you, really, you started at the same time as my ex-wife, really.
Marc:You guys were contemporaries, you and Mishnah, right?
Marc:And you used to do shows together, I think, when you were starting out in New York.
Marc:I don't remember New York, no.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:No.
Marc:But she was always sort of like, you know, he's all right.
Marc:And I'm like, is he?
Guest:Did I lead to the breakup of your marriage?
Guest:Oh, no.
Marc:Please tell me it was over me.
Marc:Oh, no.
Guest:I did that.
Guest:I did.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:I led to the breakup of my marriage.
Marc:But it was one of those things like you're talking about, like, you know, she was like, OK with you.
Marc:And because you guys were contemporaries.
Marc:And I was like, that guy's annoying.
Marc:Who does he think he is?
Marc:You had this swagger, this cockiness that I'm sure I had, but mine was angry.
Marc:Yours was just sort of like, of course I'm here.
Marc:Why wouldn't everybody love me?
Marc:And I was like, you can all go fuck yourselves.
Marc:You don't get it.
Marc:It's a different approach, but similar roots, I think.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:where'd you come from boston oh really yeah so you grew up in boston i grew up outside in a town called lexington i know lexington yeah birthplace of american liberty yeah yeah and you we'd watch the revolution of the reenactment of revolution every april did uh you were born in lexington yeah huh born and raised wait i'm trying to remember because there was like i started my stand-up career doing one-nighters in new england so i'm trying to remember if there was one in lexington never in lexington no way
Guest:No liquor license.
Guest:You'd be surprised.
Guest:Oh, is that true?
Guest:Oh, there might have been like a grill.
Guest:Right.
Guest:There was like, I don't know, a place where you throw popcorn on the floor.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That chain.
Marc:You mean like peanuts on the floor?
Marc:That sort of buffoonery.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Those are the kind of places.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you grew up in like, what was your father doing?
Guest:My father, and I don't talk very much about my family.
Guest:I'm very sort of private, which is another reason why.
Marc:Is it private or you just like to talk about yourself?
Guest:No, I just feel like I want to protect them.
Guest:It's none of their business that I went into this.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, my dad worked for Polaroid my entire life.
Guest:I was always around cameras.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then he left Polaroid and started a company doing focus groups for juries, big cases.
Guest:Really?
Guest:What a weird job transition.
Guest:No, because at Polaroid, he was doing marketing research for that.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So that was his skill set.
Guest:And my mom, my mom, a kindergarten teacher.
Marc:Wow, so this noise is a big part of your childhood.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:I love it.
Marc:And just like, they're coming out.
Marc:The SX-70, that must have been a big day at your house.
Guest:Well, you know, like your family where they're like, Mark, stop taking pictures.
Guest:It's a dollar a picture.
Marc:Oh, right.
Marc:Right.
Guest:We had piles of...
Guest:Film everywhere.
Marc:It's a dollar a picture.
Marc:Were they good pictures?
Guest:No.
Guest:They were of themselves.
Guest:It was a thing.
Guest:Well, let me explain to you.
Guest:There was a time that we didn't have digital instant photography right on our phones.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:So the excitement of watching something come into focus- Yeah.
Guest:was really cool.
Guest:And my dad was fascinated by the chemistry behind how Land, the guy who started Polaroid, figured out how in one sheet that came out of a camera, this thing took the picture and developed.
Guest:The technology blew him away.
Marc:Yeah, no, it's interesting.
Marc:And then artists picked up on it and there was ways, like if you had the older ones, if you had the ones before the SX-70, you could kind of manipulate the surface on them with a pen or a pencil before you peeled off the thing.
Marc:I remember them from when I was a very young kid, because I'm older than you, not by much, but I remember my grandparents had one of the LAN cameras where you had to pull the whole piece out and kind of...
Marc:wait with it for like two or three minutes i think before he peeled the gunk off probably black and white too right there were some black and white ones yeah and then that stinky gunk that was on there yeah you had to throw that away because it was toxic and when you're a kid you always wonder what's in the little squirty pack inside the process you know right but it was nasty but the those pictures were kind of cool and they were kind of groovy by the time i was in high school if you could get hold of one it was kind of cool and arty to have
Guest:And Warhol, I was watching that documentary, you know, he would take pictures with a Polaroid, then he would, you know, turn it into a screen on a shirt and paint it.
Marc:Right, the silk screen, yeah.
Guest:So you have brothers and sisters?
Guest:Two sisters.
Guest:Older?
Guest:I'm in the middle.
Guest:You're in the middle?
Guest:And they're all, you know, my entire family is...
Guest:I call them normal.
Guest:They all live within a mile or two of each other.
Guest:Oh, that's nice.
Guest:In Lexington.
Guest:They got kids?
Guest:They have kids.
Guest:I have nieces.
Guest:I have nephews.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I don't, you know, it's, and they're together all the time.
Guest:Get along with them?
Guest:I do.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:I talk to them, you know, like my dad, we were going back and forth watching the tennis.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:You know, Wibbleton today.
Guest:I talk to my family every day.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that's nice.
Marc:And your mom is a kindergarten teacher.
Marc:She still doesn't teach anymore, does she?
Marc:No.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:Everyone's retired and bored.
Marc:Are they...
Guest:They're so bored.
Guest:They're like, please drop the grandkids off.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Oh, that's what they do.
Marc:Well, that's nice for the sisters to have all that.
Marc:And unlike me, they're very social.
Marc:So when did you, like when you were a kid in this well-adjusted Jewish, right?
Marc:Jewish family?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Bar mitzvah and everything?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, yeah, very.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Not religious, but very into the faith.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In what way?
Marc:Ritual?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I think socially, too.
Guest:We were always at the temple.
Guest:We had Jewish friends.
Guest:We were school friends.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We still got them.
Guest:college friends i do oh no hebrew school friends some of them but not as i'm not as connected i didn't love i i mean i still like i've got to do a show next week and i have to wear a suit and it drives me nuts it reminds me of get your suit on and get to temple uh-huh you know and i and i remember there was one week either i grew or your one suit yeah i ate too much and it was tight and now that's my biggest fear every time i get into a suit
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Is it going to be tight?
Marc:I think that's another thing we have in common is food issues and body dysmorphia.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:You're a vain motherfucker.
Guest:No.
Guest:I have Jewish metabolism.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Is that what it is?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Where was the input?
Marc:Was there food in the house?
Guest:Of course there's food in the house.
Marc:But you come from a healthy eating family?
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, I don't think in particular, but they're always ready.
Guest:Food's always ready to go.
Guest:Like during the pandemic, I flew home like right at the beginning, like in the 2020s.
Guest:I was going to miss my first Thanksgiving ever, which was mandatory.
Marc:Yeah, at your folks' house.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I flew to Boston with three masks on and with the sprays and everything.
Guest:And I rented a car and I didn't tell anybody because I didn't want them to be worried about me flying.
Guest:This is before the vaccine.
Guest:This is before we even knew what it was.
Guest:And I flew home and I called my parents from the front yard and I said, what's for dinner?
Guest:And they said, we're having fish.
Guest:I go, I don't want fish.
Guest:I want brisket.
Guest:They go, oh, we wish you were here.
Guest:I said, open the front door.
Guest:And my mom almost passed out.
Guest:My dad had to catch her.
Guest:She burst out crying.
Guest:And I drove to my, she goes, go surprise your sisters.
Guest:I did it at my sister's houses too.
Guest:Same thing.
Guest:By the time I came home, she had a full brisket dinner.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:With all the accrued demands and everything just ready to go.
Guest:Oh, nice.
Guest:And that's what I grew up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She could cook.
Guest:She could cook.
Guest:That's nice.
Guest:But what's interesting is, and I don't know if you felt this way, I felt uncomfortable.
Guest:My legal name is different than the name that I've- What is it?
Guest:It was Orenstein, Adam Orenstein.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:And I changed it to Orny Adams-
Guest:Because why does this make you laugh again?
Guest:You hate every form of expression.
Marc:No, I don't.
Marc:How is that not funny to hear someone's real Jewish name?
Guest:What we're missing is the, without video, the passive-aggressivity.
Guest:It's not passive-aggressive.
Guest:How is that not funny?
Marc:What am I supposed to just take from Ornstein?
Guest:You get Orny Adams and be like, oh, okay.
Guest:But I'm trying to create a tender moment for us.
Guest:It is.
Guest:So I didn't like, is her real name Maren or is it Maren Witz?
Guest:No.
Guest:Was it ever changed?
Guest:No.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:It's weird.
Marc:It goes all the way back, too.
Marc:I did that show Finding Your Roots.
Marc:It goes all the way back to fucking Belarus in the 1800s.
Marc:Marin.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I didn't like that I was immediately identifiable as being Jewish.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:I mean, I understand that.
Marc:Jeff Lifshultz, John Leibowitz.
Marc:I forget what Jerry Lewis's real name is.
Marc:It's not unusual.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But now I kind of want to be identified as Jewish.
Guest:Well, maybe you should change your name and make that the topic of your podcast.
Guest:What about Orny Marin?
Guest:What do you think of that?
Marc:That's my biggest nightmare.
Marc:We'll call this episode of the podcast that.
Marc:Orny Marin.
Marc:Do you want to change it back to what is it?
Marc:Adam Orenstein?
Guest:I wouldn't change it back, but I don't.
Marc:What's your first name?
Guest:Adam.
Guest:It was Adam.
Marc:Adam Orenstein became Orny Adam.
Marc:Well, that was a clever switch.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now, what does your mom call you?
Marc:Adam.
Marc:Or Boychick.
Marc:Boychick, really?
Marc:Boychick.
Marc:So you had grandparents that were first generation immigrant kind of thing?
Guest:I think they were second.
Marc:Oh yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Were they in Massachusetts too?
Guest:Massachusetts, yeah.
Marc:Boston Jews, man.
Marc:The best, right?
Marc:I knew, well I used to work at a deli
Marc:One one year in West Roxbury called Gordon's Deli.
Marc:And I didn't realize that there was, you know, that like there were, you know, just those old generation of Boston Jews who were immigrants, just like in New York.
Marc:You always identify it with New York, but it's a whole different culture.
Marc:There's four different kinds of rye bread in Massachusetts.
Marc:The ones with seeds and one without seeds.
Marc:There's sisal rye with the seeds.
Marc:There's light rye, which is light rye.
Marc:There's dark rye, which is dark rye.
Marc:And there's pumpernickel.
Marc:Four.
Marc:I had four at the fucking store.
Marc:We had tongue.
Marc:We had brisket.
Marc:It was real old timey.
Marc:This must have pissed you off.
Marc:Four different kinds.
Guest:No, it was fine.
Marc:It was like a new education.
Marc:It was just a way of phrasing.
Marc:Where'd you grow up?
Marc:New Mexico.
Marc:From Jersey.
Marc:My family's from Jersey.
Guest:Why are we in New Mexico?
Guest:Is somebody have allergies?
Marc:No.
Marc:No, my dad, you know, he was in the service when he did his residency as a doctor and he wanted to start a practice.
Marc:And he had a friend who had moved to Albuquerque and it was a growing city.
Marc:So he was like, let's do it there.
Guest:What kind of doctor?
Marc:Orthopedic.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:Surgeon.
Marc:Interesting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm having knee surgery this month.
Marc:Yeah, hammers and nails, but hammers and saws.
Guest:I'm ready.
Guest:Is he still practicing?
Marc:No.
Marc:He's still in Albuquerque.
Marc:He's slowly losing his mind.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But both your parents are healthy?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So when do you start?
Marc:How about yours?
Marc:Both healthy?
Marc:Well, my dad's got the, he's starting to lose it a little bit.
Marc:My mom is dizzy, but she's okay.
Marc:Okay, okay.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:How wonderful that they're still alive and still married?
Guest:No, I'm still married, no.
Marc:They're all right.
Marc:They're old.
Marc:My dad's 83.
Marc:My mom's 80, I think.
Marc:How old are your parents?
Guest:Right there, 80.
Guest:My dad's about 80.
Guest:And he's got his marbles?
Guest:Yeah, for the most part.
Guest:That's good.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I mean, some days he's really with it.
Guest:Other days, I feel like, depends, I guess, what time I call.
Guest:Yeah, well, that's true.
Guest:So when do you start realizing- But I do feel so lucky that my parents are alive and
Marc:Well, it seems like you grew up with everything you needed.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:You were the boy.
Marc:Were you always thought of as the golden one?
Guest:No, not even close.
Guest:All right.
Guest:No, my family, they would pick on me nonstop.
Guest:Really?
Guest:But that's my family.
Guest:My family would laugh.
Guest:When we get together, we laugh.
Guest:We were the family in the restaurant that people were like, what's going on over there?
Guest:And could they be quieter?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So anything, you know, like when I graduated from college and I wrote I had a resume and I had a cover letter and I sent it out to about 100 different corporations looking for a job.
Guest:What did you study?
Guest:Political science and philosophy.
Guest:So what kind of jobs were you looking at?
Guest:I can't remember.
Guest:It just I actually think I was looking for advertising, doing copyright.
Marc:So when you were in high school and stuff, you never did any performing of any kind?
Guest:No, just in college.
Guest:But I sent out this letter and the final line, instead of thank you for your consideration, the typo was thank you for you consideration.
Guest:So now every time we get together, you know, it's, you know, can you pass the turkey at that?
Guest:Thank you for you consideration.
Guest:So it's like, you know, still being mocked for that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Still?
Guest:Still.
Guest:Wild.
Guest:And I never got a job.
Guest:I never got a job offer.
Guest:I've only lived off a stand-up comedy.
Marc:Well, okay, so you go to high school, no performing.
Guest:I played a Rolling Stones song in like a talent show.
Guest:You play guitar?
Guest:No, I'm horrible.
Guest:Oh, but you used to.
Guest:No, I was horrible, but I tried.
Guest:That seems to be a theme.
Guest:Hey, now that we're bros, you can bust balls all you want.
Marc:I don't care.
Marc:Thank God.
Marc:I've been waiting my whole life for this.
Guest:Are we going to be friendlier to each other when we see each other at the clubs?
Guest:We're going to revert back to awkward in the green room?
Guest:We'll be better.
Guest:It'll be better.
Guest:This is like a first step.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:It's persistent.
Marc:I want to be your friend, Mark.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:Okay, I don't want to be your friend.
Marc:You can be like the other fellas that I see and not be mean to.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:The thing I can't- Do you feel bad when you're mean to somebody?
Guest:Do you go home like an addict and go, why did I do that?
Guest:Or are you a sociopath and you lack empathy?
Marc:No, I don't lack empathy.
Marc:I do feel bad sometimes, you know, and I, more so, I always feel a little bad.
Marc:But I also try to write a line where, and there's not many people I bully anymore.
Marc:You just happen to be one of them, but I don't do it that much anymore.
Marc:I just give you stink eye and fucking, you know, and don't engage with you.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I don't think you've bullied me in a long time.
Guest:No, I haven't.
Guest:And by the way, I'm pro-bully.
Guest:I was bullied in high school and I think it makes you a stronger person.
Guest:It doesn't.
Marc:It doesn't.
Guest:Does it?
Marc:No, it doesn't.
Marc:I don't think so.
Marc:I think what it does is make you doubt your own vulnerability.
Marc:And, you know, if somebody bullies you and they hurt your feelings, it may make you more resistant.
Marc:But I don't think it makes you feel good about your feelings.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I feel like I felt like I was bullied many times in my life.
Guest:Really?
Guest:When?
Guest:In high school?
Guest:High school.
Guest:For what?
Guest:Were you fat?
Guest:No, you just sort of got picked on.
Guest:I don't think there's anything specific.
Guest:But it's not like bullied.
Marc:Go ahead.
Marc:So this has happened your whole life.
Guest:No, it hasn't, Mark.
Guest:Don't make excuses for your... You've been annoying people since you were a child.
Guest:And you don't think... What's funny is you're deflecting on how annoying you are.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:I think I'm intense.
Marc:I don't know if I'm annoying.
Marc:I wonder if I'm annoying.
Marc:I think I'm a little too intense and sometimes intimidating, and I come off as arrogant.
Marc:But I don't know if I'm annoying.
Guest:Arrogant, yes.
Guest:I don't think... You certainly didn't intimidate me.
Guest:Of course not.
Guest:But I was more like...
Guest:What's wrong with this guy?
Guest:Sort of like, why is he... He almost got away from the conversation without insulting me.
Marc:Yeah, I get it.
Guest:And, I mean, let's be honest.
Guest:20 years ago, this meeting would not have happened today.
Marc:I know it wouldn't.
Marc:There was no podcast.
Marc:So we've matured.
Marc:We've matured.
Marc:I don't know that it would have gone any differently 20 years ago.
Marc:And I do think...
Marc:I think that there is something to competitiveness that is probably part of it.
Marc:I think that there was probably outside my own insecurity and the jealousy of the type of attention you were getting at a different time because we're close enough to being contemporaries that I don't look at you as like the next generation or anything.
Marc:But there was certainly a period there where you would seem to be getting a tremendous amount of attention
Marc:And then you just self-immolated somehow.
Marc:It all blew up.
Guest:Is that what happened?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:What happened?
Guest:Well, as an outsider, I'd love to hear what you think.
Marc:Well, I'll be honest with you.
Marc:I don't know that I saw the movie.
Marc:until later like i didn't see it when it came out but i do remember reading that piece in harper's uh the six minutes of fun that's interesting you read that i've read it many times why is that i i haven't
Guest:Maybe I should discuss this on my podcast.
Marc:I've given it to people.
Marc:Have you really?
Marc:Why?
Marc:Because it was such an amazing sort of odd insight into what you were going through, you know, more so to me than than the movie.
Marc:There's a line.
Marc:And I think it sort of honors something about comics, but also sort of about, you know, kind of the momentum you were in.
Marc:Mm hmm.
Marc:That you're sort of like you were being fueled by this confidence because you were being indulged by the business and by powerful people had sort of like gotten behind you.
Marc:And why wouldn't your ego be huge and ready to go?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But that line where you don't do well on stage and then you get off stage.
Marc:And I think the final line of the article is, by the time he had gotten to the bottom of the stairs, he had convinced himself that he killed.
Guest:I don't think I did.
Guest:I knew I didn't do well.
Guest:You love it.
Guest:You love it.
Guest:Listen, that guy that wrote that.
Marc:Wasn't it a woman?
Guest:It was a guy.
Guest:All right.
Guest:And it was that guy followed me around and was my best friend.
Guest:Yeah, you can't trust him.
Guest:You can't.
Guest:He was irresponsible.
Guest:And to the point where he called me the first call in Montreal.
Guest:Your name is everywhere in the papers.
Guest:Everyone's talking about you.
Guest:Your ego must be huge.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I said to be funny.
Guest:Uh, yeah, I'm going to need a bigger hotel room for it.
Guest:That's line one of the article.
Guest:That's funny.
Guest:But he said Orny's ego's so big, he said he's going to need a big... That's not what happened.
Guest:I didn't volunteer this information.
Guest:I was reacting to it.
Guest:But it was a joke, yeah.
Guest:It was a joke.
Guest:It doesn't come across as a joke.
Guest:It comes across as fodder for pricks like you that are looking to, you know, take me down to the fact that you're like, everybody I'm possibly having a deal with, you send them the Harper's article and my first demo reel from Atlanta.
Guest:No, no, no.
Marc:Oh, no, no, no.
Marc:It was comics.
Marc:I just thought it was an odd, it was a well-written thing about comedy, about the experience.
Guest:I was way, way out of my league in that thing.
Guest:I didn't know what I was in for.
Guest:I didn't know, you know.
Guest:Well, let's talk about where it unfolded.
Guest:Where did you start doing comedy?
Guest:In college?
Guest:Atlanta, Georgia, Funny Bone.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Buckhead was the first time I was on stage.
Guest:In Buckhead?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I just did a show in Buckhead, at the Buckhead Theater.
Marc:It was fine.
Marc:So, why there?
Marc:You were going to school there?
Marc:Yeah, I was going to school there.
Marc:Oh, Emory.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What did you do that first time?
Guest:I'd have to look at my set list.
Guest:I still have it.
Guest:Yeah, I do.
Guest:I was doing jokes about studying abroad in Italy.
Guest:I wasn't 21 yet.
Guest:How did it go, the set?
Guest:I felt very comfortable up there, but I'm sure, who knows?
Guest:In fact, this weekend, for July 4th, one of the parties was my college friends, and one of them was there that night, the first time I did comedy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did you do it for them in the dorm room before?
Guest:I was always sort of funny.
Guest:And when I studied abroad in Italy, in fact, that might be the first time I did stand-up.
Guest:I did it for all the American kids, like in the general assembly room.
Guest:And then I would go to Boston over the summer and do stand-up.
Guest:Where at?
Guest:Knicks, Stitches, Catcher Eyes and Star.
Marc:This is like while you were in college?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Oh, so Catch was still open.
Guest:Knicks.
Guest:What else was it?
Marc:Giggles and Saugus.
Marc:Giggles and Saugus.
Marc:Yeah, the Leaning Tower of Pizza.
Marc:Yeah, I would do all that.
Marc:Knicks at the Kowloon.
Guest:You know, I never had to do an open mic or a bringer show.
Guest:Dick Doherty's.
Guest:Dick Doherty's, because there was just so many rooms.
Marc:Right, but you had enough chops that, well, back then it was sort of before bringer shows.
Marc:It was still sort of an open mic guest spot situation.
Marc:So you were, what, doing opening slots and stuff?
Guest:No, it would be like, you know, it's Don Gavin's show Wednesday night at Knicks.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:So you were getting booked.
Marc:I was getting booked on those shows.
Marc:Because you had the bits.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Well, I think in those days you would come up and say, hey, I'm a stand-up comedian from Atlanta.
Guest:You'd embellish, right?
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah, you're doing stand-up down there.
Guest:You come up here.
Guest:Oh, so you didn't present yourself as a local.
Guest:Well, no, I was a Boston boy and always will be, but they would, right.
Marc:But Mike Clark would give you a shot.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And if you deliver- You get the gig.
Marc:You get the gig.
Marc:And then they'd start folding you into those one-nighters and going to Saugus.
Marc:For 75 bucks to go to New Hampshire.
Marc:That's 75 bucks.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Loved it.
Guest:That's how you cut your teeth, right?
Marc:That's how I did it.
Marc:I mean, it's not how everybody does it, but that's, yeah, I cut my teeth in New England doing one-nighters.
Guest:But don't you think that's what makes you better?
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:When anybody says, what advice would you give a young comic?
Guest:Get on stage every single night.
Marc:Well, that's one thing.
Marc:But doing it that way where you go up cold opening for another guy in the middle of nowhere, I mean, that's different.
Marc:I mean, that really is hard.
Marc:but don't you remember the days when like you got booked as a feature and now you have to do 30 minutes but you don't have 30 minutes so you sit there you write out a list everything yeah yeah for 30 minutes you're on stage going now go to this bit now go to this oh yeah sure yeah but like when i started it was mostly two-man show so it wasn't a feature spot the opener had to do a half hour and then the headliner would do 45 minutes huh that was the that was the one-nighter right
Marc:and the good places had an opener like if you did nick if you did giggles or you did the taunt and regency a three-man show but most of them in my recollection were two-man shows well i remember in boston the mc on the weekday shows was the headliner
Guest:So it'd be like Sweeney.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:So those guys would get up there.
Guest:They'd do 45 minutes if they wanted to.
Guest:Then they'd bring me up or they'd bring somebody else up.
Guest:And it was all really strong comics.
Guest:So you were around strong comedy every night.
Guest:What years were that?
Guest:91 to up to the 2000s.
Guest:I moved to New York for about four or five years.
Marc:So you started really doing the work at the clubs in Boston, so you didn't have to do bringer shows, but it's still a little before bringer shows, I think.
Guest:Yeah, I didn't do bringer or no open mics either.
Guest:I never waited in a line.
Guest:I never saw that.
Guest:Oh, I did some of that.
Guest:I got lucky.
Marc:I definitely did open mics at Catch a Rising Star.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:Yeah, and played against Sam's.
Marc:Yeah, there was definitely open mics.
Marc:So yeah, so that was your entrance.
Marc:So when did you move to New York?
Guest:Well, what happened was Disney came in and they were scouting to give development deals.
Guest:And they saw me and they flew me to LA for a meeting with the head of development for Disney.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I remember that meeting.
Guest:So weird.
Guest:There's me and one other kid who's probably no longer in the business.
Guest:They put us up at a really nice hotel and we had our meetings and they said, you're going to meet with her and talk for like 20 minutes.
Guest:And then you'd sit outside of the office and they'd say, we're going to let you know if you're going to stay in L.A.
Guest:or you're going to go home on a plane.
Guest:And I got sent home on a plane that night.
Guest:I got, like, eliminated from the deal.
Guest:And it was the longest, saddest flight.
Guest:This is before cell phones.
Guest:You couldn't even call your parents and go, no, I got sent home.
Guest:Like, it happened so fast.
Guest:They got me the hell out of that hotel room.
Guest:And, yeah, but after... Welcome to show business.
Guest:Yeah, I should have known then to get out.
Guest:And then after that, they all...
Guest:People wanted to see me do stand-up, so I'd go to New York to audition.
Guest:And so I'd do a set at the cellar so they could see me, stand-up New York.
Guest:And that's how I got in at the strip at all those clubs was because of that.
Guest:Okay, for showcases.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:So that was fortunate.
Guest:And then you moved down there.
Guest:Loved it.
Guest:I would say, as a stand-up comedian, the most pure point in my career was doing...
Guest:15 minute sets.
Guest:All over town.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:With the best.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:With the best.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And just, you know, nobody was thinking, am I talking about something that could become a TV show?
Guest:Nobody was thinking, am I wearing something that says something?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We were just getting up there to be funny.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Boston too was like that.
Guest:So you're doing New York.
Guest:How many Letterman's did you do?
Marc:I did one Letterman.
Hmm.
Guest:I did a few Tonight Shows.
Marc:Okay, so what happens now?
Marc:Let's just track what I'm trying to track.
Marc:And what I was going to say to you before about people I resent and what I've realized, and I always kind of knew, is that no matter how much I may be annoyed with you for my own dumb reasons, you're a good comic and you're solid and you always do the job.
Marc:So no matter what I think, that stands out to me.
Marc:And I have to honor that.
Marc:You know, it's not like you're not like a hack and you're not like you do.
Marc:You're the aggravated guy.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:You've been that way since you were young.
Marc:I don't know why you acted like you were 70 when you were 30.
Marc:But why does it matter?
Guest:Why does it matter?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's mutual.
Guest:I've always respected your work and I've always thought you were funny and that never like which kind of sucks because you just want to go.
Guest:This guy's a dick and he's a hack.
Guest:But I could never, you know.
Guest:You could just say I'm a dick.
Guest:No, no, because I like you and I want to like you.
Guest:And I just, it's just, it's strange when someone you admire is attacking you.
Marc:Yeah, I know, I know.
Marc:Well, you know, I'm sorry about that.
Guest:And I'm sorry that I ignored you with my annoyingness.
Marc:No, it's not your fault.
Marc:You're who you are.
Marc:Believe me, no one was inviting me to parties.
Marc:I definitely annoy some people.
Marc:But yeah, so when does the momentum start?
Marc:How do you frame that whole experience with comedian, with a movie, and what happened after that?
Guest:I can tell you the way I remember it in my brain is I was doing a lot of shows in the city.
Guest:Every night I'd go cellar, Gotham, stand-up, strip, back down to the cellar.
Guest:This is like 99.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:1990.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I felt like...
Guest:Like, they were making accommodations.
Guest:Like, if I called us and go, can I go one set later so I can do stand-up New York?
Guest:She would do it.
Guest:And I felt very good about myself.
Guest:And they would put me on, you know, stand-up New York to close the show, Gotham to close the show.
Marc:And all of a sudden... That's probably the beginning of why you were annoying me.
Marc:Because I was there, wasn't I?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I was in New York.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So what annoys you about that?
Marc:It was just sort of like, you know, I...
Marc:You know, you represented something that annoyed me.
Marc:You were just a guy that was, you know, going out to kill at all the clubs.
Marc:And, you know, you didn't the ambition of it.
Marc:I'm just weird about it.
Marc:It's a problem I have.
Marc:I probably have to explore more.
Marc:But people who are focused and.
Marc:and specifically ambitious and aware of it annoy me.
Marc:Like I know I'm ambitious, but I don't pay attention to it.
Marc:It's just a persistence that I have.
Guest:So let me ask you a question.
Guest:Do you like athletes like Muhammad Ali that, you know, I'm a bad man or whatever he says.
Guest:I sting like the cocky.
Guest:Do you like the guy in baseball that points to right field and then knocks it out of the park?
Guest:Kind of.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I'm not a sports guy.
Guest:I love those guys.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Okay, I get it.
Marc:Do you see where I'm getting at?
Marc:Yeah, maybe it's because I don't really watch sports that I just misunderstood you for so many years.
Marc:Right.
Guest:That's what it is?
Marc:Yeah, he's just a guy that wanted to hit it out of the park.
Marc:He wants to float like a butterfly and sting like a bee.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting that you can get away with it.
Marc:with these things.
Marc:I can't even manufacture the confidence that you were manufacturing either for real or out of insecurity at the time you were doing it.
Marc:And I found it contemptible.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:And I respect that.
Guest:And I agree.
Guest:And looking back, yeah, there are many things that I look and I'm embarrassed.
Guest:It makes me cringe.
Guest:Like what?
Guest:There's a million.
Guest:The movie?
Guest:Yeah, there are parts of the movie.
Guest:I understand.
Marc:Okay, so let's go back to the beginning of the movie.
Marc:So you're doing all these sets.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And what happens?
Guest:Every time I saw that stupid camera crew in the lobby of any of those clubs, I knew Seinfeld was going to come in.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And now bump me.
Guest:And I'm using this as a launching pad for my social life.
Guest:So New York's a wonderful place.
Guest:You can do your shows till one in the morning and then you can stay out till four.
Guest:You don't have to worry about drinking and driving.
Guest:You're going to take the subway or cab home.
Guest:And I would have women show up or friends and we'd go.
Guest:Well, you're not quite the hero that night when Seinfeld shows up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So he kept bumping me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:From shows.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Understandably.
Guest:So one day the film crew saw that I was frustrated, if you can believe it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they said, can we ask you a few questions?
Guest:And I said, sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They said, what do you think of Seinfeld's act, the new act?
Guest:I said, I don't think it's that good.
Guest:I said, it sort of seems dated.
Guest:Like his style seems dated, the topics.
Guest:He doesn't talk fast enough.
Guest:You're saying this on camera?
Guest:On camera.
Guest:They show Seinfeld.
Guest:Seinfeld says, quote, follow this guy.
Guest:He's the only one that has the balls to criticize me.
Guest:And I was then followed and enamored.
Guest:Again, these guys, these producers, if you know anything about what's going on in reality shows now, they know how to make you feel good and get you to say shit that you shouldn't say.
Guest:And I was too...
Guest:Young and naive.
Guest:And I was also doing a character in some sense.
Guest:So when I go to a car service and I go to open the door and I look at the camera and go, I have to open my own door?
Guest:That's a character.
Marc:That makes sense.
Guest:But that isn't when people see it, they go, who does this guy think that he doesn't have to open his own doors?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:So you're kind of playing the part they put you in.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And you know what?
Guest:There were two versions.
Guest:There was a version of that film that we took out, or Seinfeld took out, but he graciously took me along for.
Guest:Seinfeld was very kind to me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Flew me to New York one time, and he said, I want to take you out and show you how to be famous and sign autographs.
Guest:It was very... Anytime I did a... Like, when I did a special, he would call and... Like, he privately was very supportive of me.
Guest:And...
Guest:And so then it got sold to Merimax.
Guest:I remember meeting with Harvey Weinstein.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:How was that?
Guest:Everything you would expect it to be.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And so once that version, the word came back, take out this guy doing stand-up and take out these moments that make him look human and sort of vilify him.
Guest:And so that's what they did.
Guest:The second cut was a lot different than the first one.
Guest:So they set you up.
Guest:I wouldn't say it was a setup.
Guest:I would say they're smart.
Guest:They've got to have a bad person in there.
Guest:So it's easier to dislike me if you don't see stand-up that substantiates my- Why'd Jerry let him do that?
Guest:Why do you think?
Guest:Because it's payback.
Marc:Payback for what?
Marc:For having the balls to criticize him.
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:So what was the relationship with George Shapiro who just passed?
Marc:Because, I mean, that was... He was my manager.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So Seinfeld turned him on to you.
Guest:I have some thoughts on that that I won't share today.
Guest:What do you mean?
Guest:When are you going to share them?
Guest:This is it.
Guest:This is it?
Guest:Is this my...
Guest:I have some thoughts on that.
Guest:And he's dead.
Guest:He's dead.
Guest:But still, I'm going to wait until everybody's dead.
Guest:And then, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I'm going to wait until the day before we leave for Mars.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And as a species.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So how'd you get involved with George?
Marc:Through Jerry?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the producers were sending him my tapes.
Marc:The producers of the documentary?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Where were they from?
Marc:England?
Guest:No, one was British, but they were both guys that worked at an ad agency and had worked with Seinfeld and...
Guest:Pitched this documentary and I had listen.
Guest:I was so excited to get $700 a day Dude, I you know the there nothing about you wanting to be involved in that was peculiar Why wouldn't you what I think is fascinating is it's it's on Netflix now is it it is I shouldn't have said that but it is
Guest:And I'll still get, I'll get like, why are you laughing?
Guest:I'll get, people will like on social media, they'll like attack me.
Guest:They'll like just saw the new Seinfeld thing.
Guest:I'm like, it's not new.
Guest:It's not even HD.
Marc:It's a fucking nightmare.
Guest:It's a square image.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:It's a fucking nightmare.
Guest:But people attack me.
Guest:I'm the villain of this.
Guest:Do you understand Bill Cosby is in this documentary and I'm still the asshole?
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm sorry, buddy.
Guest:You love it.
Marc:No, I don't.
Marc:I mean, I'm laughing because it's hilarious, but it's horrible.
Marc:It's like, it's just like, it's just this, you had no control over it.
Marc:And, you know, you've obviously framed it in retrospect as you can understand why they made the choices you made.
Marc:But it, you know, it fucking it hobbled you and it's not going to go away.
Guest:No.
Guest:Even when I met Brooke Shields, she said, it's your blue lagoon.
Guest:That's what she said.
Guest:It's going to come up in every interview.
Marc:Well, no, I mean, of course, it's going to come up today, but I'm sure it's not coming up that much anymore.
Guest:No, I think like I got a Michael Moore.
Guest:Said to me I went into that documentary and I came out loving you and hating You know the people that were involved with that without naming the name they set you up so then
Marc:do you okay thank you what is that i'm just saying that like you know you've had to frame it in retrospect they're like they needed a villain they did this but but they they it's not unlike that article that i enjoyed only because of the last line you know because the the thing is like you know it hurts me to you know to to feel like that i was meaning you or felt any satisfaction
Marc:But, you know, I'm just an insecure, angry guy.
Marc:So what I saw happen at that time was some sort of schadenfreude that, you know, you will be humbled because you flew too close to the sun.
Marc:I think I have been humbled by that.
Marc:I definitely think you've been humbled.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I think that that line, by the time you got to the bottom of the stairs, I thought it was a funny line.
Marc:And it always stuck with me.
Guest:But I knew I did not do well in Montreal.
Guest:Of course you knew.
Guest:And I said something from the stage that still to this day just makes me shrivel up.
Guest:Montreal was given every opportunity, and I blew it.
Guest:I blew it.
Marc:Well, look, man, it's a tough gig sometimes.
Marc:There's a lot of pressure.
Marc:It's not a real audience.
Marc:You got half the audience is in industry.
Marc:Half of them are local.
Marc:Some of them are drunk in the new face is a fucking nightmare.
Marc:You know, for anybody to really succeed at that, there has to be so much expectation.
Marc:And back then people were unknown.
Marc:But but I do think that, you know.
Marc:A guy, you know, in your position who worked hard, who got really liked, you know, really believed in comedy and wanted to do it more than anything.
Marc:How were you not going to behave the way you behave when you got all that sort of juice from those people?
Marc:You know, I don't think you could have known at the beginning of that that, you know, it would hang around your neck like a fucking albatross.
Guest:Do you think that your opinion of this is the majority in the stand-up community?
Guest:I feel like in a sense that I alienated myself from some people in the stand-up community.
Marc:Well, I think what you're saying, as you say to me, to my face, that differentiating between sort of playing into their expectations and actually being who you are probably is misunderstood.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:So, like, I don't know what the general opinion is, but, you know, you know how you came off.
Marc:And half of that is because they cut you to to to to use you as this foil.
Marc:But also part of it was that, you know, you were playing it up.
Marc:I agree.
Marc:So like for and people would sort of take that like black guys like that, you know, but but, you know, when you say to me that you were sort of like it was a gag and it makes sense to me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, if this is the position they're going to put me in, why not just fucking like I felt like, you know, stand up comedians, we look for a reason.
Guest:to hate other comics do you know what i mean like you're watching somebody kill on stage you go oh now he's talking about you know that that hack topic you know it's like it's so i felt like insecure competitiveness yeah i felt like this hate i guess yeah i mean i feel like i gave everybody the opportunity you didn't you didn't give it to him
Guest:So then why?
Guest:They did it to you.
Guest:Okay, thank you.
Guest:So have you ever said that publicly?
Guest:Like, why is it?
Guest:Saying it now.
Guest:Okay, thank you.
Guest:Now that my career's over?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Appreciate it.
Guest:Thanks for the boost now.
Guest:Great.
Guest:You do that radio thing where you don't laugh into the mic.
Marc:I don't want to blow the levels up, but you can hear me laughing.
Marc:No, because it's a hard thing to come back from because I think...
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Like, you know, you're not no angel.
Marc:You're no angel in the sense that, like, you know, you're not.
Marc:I think you do expect a certain amount of respect.
Marc:And I think you work hard and your ethic is good.
Marc:And you're a guy that kills.
Marc:So, you know, you want to be treated like the guy who kills.
Marc:Like, I'm the guy who kills every night.
Marc:Where's my fucking prize?
Marc:Right.
Marc:What do I got to be out there doing the second show on Friday for half a house?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I thought in this business, and really, screw me for even ever having this crazy thought, but I thought if you were funny,
Guest:It led to things, but it isn't that.
Marc:Sometimes it just leads to being funny.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like you're so Zen about that, you know?
Marc:No, but I mean, I, it's just, I'm only Zen about it in the sense that I know that there is, there is no fairness to it.
Marc:And a lot of times there's plenty of people that can kill dude.
Marc:I mean, it's just the reality of it, especially now there's thousands of comics, you know, and how anybody builds an audience or why people are appealing.
Marc:either on this mic or on the stand-up mic or on a TV show.
Marc:Who the fuck knows?
Marc:I mean, you can be so proficient and so perfect and do everything right and get exactly the response you want, but still not garner the big following.
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:I don't know what the fuck that is.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:And there are comics that sell millions of tickets that some people don't even know.
Marc:It's a weird thing.
Marc:Yeah, it is weird.
Marc:It's not a meritocracy.
Marc:Are you happy with where your stand-up career- I've had to make certain acceptance about it.
Marc:I'm happy with my stand-up career because by some fucking virtue of, I don't know what, when I started this podcast, I couldn't sell fucking tickets.
Marc:And then with the podcast audience developing, they didn't know that I was a comic, really.
Marc:They knew I talked about it, but they would come out like, we should go support Mark.
Marc:I'm like, this is actually the thing I know how to do.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:So over time, through one way or another, you know, just by and all because of this, the podcast and the timing of the thing, which was the first time in my life I had good cosmic timing.
Marc:I did, you know, and it all happened on my terms, but I got opportunities and I was ready for them.
Marc:So, you know, between the acting and the podcast and the stand up and this and that, I have an audience, but it's not, you know, I'm not filling arenas, but I can make a living.
Marc:It's great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I've had to accept that.
Marc:Because there's always some part of you, man, like as a comic and as somebody like us who are sort of fundamentally a little insecure and think that we're entitled to more attention than we are.
Guest:Who isn't insecure?
Marc:There are people that aren't insecure.
Guest:There are.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:But why do we always have to label comics insecure?
Marc:Because a lot of us are.
Marc:But I think in the world we're insecure.
Marc:Well, no, I get it.
Marc:Sure, there's insecure plumbers and there's insecure... Oh, God, the way I snaked that toilet.
Guest:Oh, God, I could have snaked the drain better.
Marc:I don't think that's true.
Guest:Damn it.
Guest:Did you see the way Mark snakes the drain?
Marc:I don't think that's true.
Marc:I think they probably compete.
Guest:He's in and out of the house in 30 minutes.
Marc:I don't think it's task specific.
Marc:I think they're more insecure about, like, why am I not... I'm a stupid plumber!
Yeah!
Guest:Damn it.
Guest:God, I suck at plumbing.
Marc:Why did I commit my life to this?
Guest:I worked so hard.
Guest:I have a boss.
Guest:I work for a plumbing company.
Marc:Well, a lot of them are their own guys, but I think they're more.
Guest:Stupid, insecure plumber.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:But I don't think that's true.
Marc:I think that, you know, unlike, you know, alcoholism or drug addiction, I think that's pervasive with every type of person.
Marc:But I think insecurity...
Marc:is a fairly common component in what fuels us to do what we do.
Marc:So how you manage that and how bad it fucks you, that's half of your job, right?
Guest:I agree.
Guest:I'm not denying I'm insecure.
Guest:No, I know.
Guest:But I think it's more out there.
Guest:I think everybody's insecure.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I used to think that about bitterness, but I was wrong.
Marc:And I spent a lot of my life thinking that people were as aggravated about the things I was aggravated about on an existential level that they just don't know it and I'm here to introduce them to that.
Marc:But a lot of times people are just looking at you going like, why is this guy so worked up about this?
Guest:You ever meet people and they're like seemingly happy in life and they have nothing.
Guest:You're like, they have nothing.
Guest:I've got so much more than them, but how are they able to be happy?
Marc:How do you know what you have?
Marc:They might have something you don't have.
Marc:No, I've done a full audit.
Marc:But this is the issue, is this assumption, and I think I've done it, and I may have more progress with it than you do, that we understand or know what other people are thinking, or that for some reason, our lives, our stupid fucking lives where we can't manage a relationship, we don't really have many friends, we're insulated, we've never had a fucking job, we sit here around and look at the fucking world and write our stupid little jokes, assuming that we understand people, it's a fallacy.
Marc:There's a lot of people that have different priorities in their life.
Marc:It determines whether or not their life is fulfilling.
Marc:And we're in our selfish, dumb worlds where we're sitting around by ourselves trying to make things work out.
Guest:We think we understand that.
Guest:So was it unhealthy for Marc Maron to go into this business?
Guest:No.
Guest:Would you mentally have been better served doing something else?
Guest:Well, you know.
Marc:Orny, that if you've got this thing for real, this bug, that you don't have other options.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you can't, no matter, even if you have these fantasies about like, oh, maybe I could do this.
Marc:There's just no way it's going to happen.
Marc:So by the time I started this fucking podcast, I was like, you know, I'm looking at a life of, you know, if this, you know, right now, when I got on that mic, you know, after that second divorce, you know, from Mishnah and, you know, going broke and everything else that, like, I knew...
Marc:That was a moment where I knew exactly who I was, is that at best, I can't sell tickets.
Marc:So I'm looking at a life of plowing it out in B comedy rooms as an unknown headliner for life.
Marc:That, or I'm gonna put a fucking gun in my mouth.
Marc:I don't have the courage for that.
Marc:So I had to accept at some level the limitations and the reality of what my life was.
Marc:And then I got on these mics and something clicked.
Marc:Who the fuck knows?
Marc:Cosmic, I don't know.
Marc:I was lucky, but I have to assume it had something to do with talent.
Marc:But I definitely knew at that moment, and I used to do a joke about it, that at some point you get so far along where you're like, there's no plan B. There might not have ever been.
Marc:But there's that moment where you're sort of like, hey, if this doesn't work, I could always...
Guest:holy fuck yeah yeah there is nothing right there's nothing but also don't undermine that you had the guts and the courage early on to expose yourself at that level which i i don't i'm still the guy who and i i wish i wasn't has to suck my stomach in for every picture that has that concern and i wish i could just get out there
Guest:And just not care.
Guest:And for you to have that courage when you turn the mic on, I think that's, you know, I think that's really cool.
Marc:Yeah, I still like I care.
Marc:But like the thing is, is that eventually it's going to catch up with you.
Marc:And no matter how much you care, you know, time will make a fool out of you.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's a good quote.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Time is the great equalizer.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, I mean, I'm still uncomfortable with how I look.
Marc:I just, you know, I was walking around, you know, I'm nuts, you know, around all that stiff still.
Marc:But like some part of me realizes, like, I'm just not going to get these pictures right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm never going to be happy with it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But then there are some people like Philip Seymour Hoffman who like it's just so attractive how at home or at easy was with his appearance and his look.
Guest:And that to me is kind of cool, too.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I envy, you know, people who are comfortably fat.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Do you ever think like if you and I had any charisma, how far we would have gone?
Marc:I think we both have charisma, but I think we're a little, I think our problem is a self-centeredness more than anything else.
Guest:I don't think we're any more self-centered than anybody else in this business.
Marc:Well, this is your particular problem.
Marc:You've decided that everyone must be insecure and that now we're just as self-centered as everybody else.
Guest:Well, don't you think in these times, do you go on social media?
Guest:It's all about me, me, me, me, me.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:Everybody's posting pictures.
Guest:It's all self-centered.
Guest:Well, maybe that just becomes self-centered.
Guest:We're just pioneers.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Look where it's gotten us.
Marc:You're in a trailer talking to nobody.
Guest:Literally.
Guest:I go, this is on the verge.
Guest:I go, this is what crazy people do.
Guest:They talk about news articles and all that sort of stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But here's the other thing.
Marc:Maybe it's not self-centeredness.
Marc:It's just this weird assumption.
Marc:I don't know what it is, but I understand what you're saying.
Marc:Because, like, I used to do that a lot.
Marc:Like, I really believed when I was, you know, less funny and more angry and on stage, like at Luna and stuff, that I was speaking to something that everyone must experience.
Marc:But you know what, Ben?
Marc:There are people that are well-adjusted.
Marc:There are people that don't prioritize the things that we prioritize.
Marc:There are people that don't get annoyed in the same way that we do.
Guest:Even if you're talking about what?
Guest:Here's a ruler in front of me.
Guest:And you're at Luna and you're so upset about the rule.
Guest:Why is it only 12 inches?
Guest:Why isn't it 24?
Guest:Right?
Guest:They're going to go, this guy's crazy.
Guest:But that's the way I feel about XYZ.
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:Maybe they stop at this guy's crazy and I'll just laugh at him.
Guest:no yes yes i don't think so well that that's the realization i had at some point i realized that they might not be laughing with me but if they're gonna laugh at me i'll take either one i would have told you if that was going on when you go who are you today bob dylan i wouldn't screw you they're laughing at you marin uh they're not laughing with you i was laughing at you with your hat marin your your your hacky ruler bit
Guest:Hey, whatever happened to Marin with his ruler bit?
Marc:Oh, yeah, he really worked that thing to the bone.
Marc:Couldn't get over it.
Marc:Couldn't get over with it.
Guest:God, can anybody find the quarter inch mark?
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:So how do you find you recovered from all that shit?
Marc:I mean, like, you know, the letdown or how did you know that things didn't pan out after the movie?
Guest:You know pretty fast.
Guest:Mark, I was playing a theater in Baltimore opening for Seinfeld.
Marc:So he took you on the road after Comedian.
Guest:Yes, for a couple of gigs, and then he said that we were too similar for comedy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, you know, it couldn't have gone better.
Guest:I did the show in Baltimore, and this is how long ago.
Guest:By the way, for anybody who's wondering, this thing was shot in 1999 and came out in 2001.
Guest:So this is a long time.
Marc:Twenty years ago.
Guest:Twenty-one years ago.
Guest:Yeah, hold on.
Guest:Let me do the math on the ruler here.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So...
Guest:Do you hate the ruler, Galva?
Guest:No, no, you're good.
Guest:So I finish the show, and the next day, my parents came from Boston to see the show, and I go to the train station the next day, take the train back to New York, and I go to the newsstand and grab a newspaper from every major city, San Francisco, New York, Boston, blah, blah, Atlanta, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm panned in every single one of those reviews.
Guest:For the movie?
Guest:For the movie.
Guest:In fact, like in a cruel way, like the Hollywood Reporter or Variety, the woman writing the review said that I was bereft of humility and she was rooting for my failure.
Guest:And I thought that's kind of like, you know, I'm an unknown, you know, guy.
Marc:I understand that it was that was cruel.
Marc:But I for some reason that, you know, that I think that was a feeling that people had about how you were represented in there.
Guest:Mm hmm.
Guest:And thank you for saying it that way, how I was represented.
Marc:I do appreciate.
Marc:Well, I mean, you've told me that, you know, you were in some ways, you know, playing up to something.
Marc:So the bereft of humility, I think that's I think that that is.
Marc:That is an issue.
Guest:Well, you know, also when you have cameras in your face, it gives you a little confidence.
Guest:Well, you've got humility now.
Guest:I sure do.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Okay, so it happened quick.
Guest:It happened very quick.
Guest:And just sort of like the way the – like they did a screening in New York City.
Guest:And I remember when it got up, like none of the comics wanted to talk to me.
Guest:And I go, oh, we might be in trouble here.
Guest:But I'm sitting next to Seinfeld during the screening.
Guest:And he's like hitting me in the ribs going, I'm just like that.
Guest:I'm just like that.
Guest:And yet- When you're talking?
Guest:Yeah, like during the movie.
Guest:Interesting.
Guest:Interesting that he saw you as a kindred spirit.
Guest:Younger version of him.
Guest:And call me the most honest person he's ever met.
Marc:Okay, so none of the comics want to talk to you.
Guest:I felt that way.
Guest:And I could be, again, insecure and reading into it wrong, but no, I mean, but I also never felt like I fit in.
Guest:Did you ever feel like I'm not the guy who's hanging out till three o'clock in the morning with the comics.
Guest:I was going home or going out with friends.
Marc:No, I hung out with people.
Guest:Yeah, I didn't.
Guest:I didn't.
Marc:So you're already a little isolated.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I went into comedy because I'm an outsider.
Marc:Yeah, well, I always liked the crew of outsiders.
Marc:I like to eat, too, and I can't sweep that well.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So I had to hang out, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Okay, so, and how did your career go after that?
Guest:It was bad.
Guest:Bad.
Guest:I couldn't get bored.
Guest:I remember calling Jerry going, I'm, first of all, I had to deal with...
Guest:CBS?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Development deal.
Guest:Yeah, they pulled out.
Guest:They pulled out after the movie?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:After Montreal in the movie, yeah.
Guest:Maybe the movie hadn't been out.
Guest:They pulled out.
Guest:A six-figure deal.
Guest:And then Warner Brothers gave me a deal.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I don't think...
Guest:They really want to give me a deal.
Guest:I think they it was sort of like a favor deal I don't know.
Guest:Maybe they did want to give me that a six-figure one Yeah, and it was late in the season and I barely got a writer nothing ever happened I couldn't believe that I've had two of those.
Guest:Yeah Yeah, and I couldn't get booked on the road.
Guest:There's some clubs I'm not kidding and maybe my information is wrong But there are some clubs in this country that still will not book me because I'm difficult from comedian
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'll tell you off the air one of them.
Guest:But, I mean, you know, I've proven myself on the road.
Guest:I'm not, you know, I wouldn't be working this long in this business if I was difficult.
Marc:No, yeah.
Marc:No, you just, you know, you just do the job.
Marc:And you show up, you'll do the radio, you'll do everything.
Marc:Love it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I'm not kidding.
Guest:Like, radio and, again, not to bring the podcast up again, but I run a lot of bits through the podcast and they end up on stage.
Guest:Yeah, me too.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So, yeah, you'll be doing the rule a bit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, you can have it.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Ah!
Guest:Next time I'm in front of you, I'm closing with the ruler bit.
Guest:You take the ruler bit.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And I just got that fucking... What happened?
Marc:I used a lotion with some sunblock in it, and I got it in my own.
Guest:Oh, that's the worst.
Guest:Why don't they fix that?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Maybe that's... Write that down.
Marc:It's a good premise.
Marc:I used to do it.
Guest:I did.
Guest:I did.
Guest:I did.
Guest:If he didn't shit on it, I was going to go full on into it.
Guest:I was going to get up.
Guest:I was going to start screaming and stomping around.
Guest:Did you used to do it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're really attentive to the minutiae.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, now, you're all right money-wise?
Marc:Not money-wise, but work-wise?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You do all right?
Marc:I do all right.
Guest:Good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And do you talk to Jerry?
Guest:No.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I don't.
Guest:I don't.
Guest:And to put, like, a button on it... Uh-huh.
I...
Guest:This will stay with me and this will always be a source of pain in my life, this documentary.
Guest:And it will be something that I feel like I've got to defend even when I don't have to defend it.
Guest:But I don't know.
Guest:I've gone through this in my head several times.
Guest:If at the end of the day, I regret doing it because it is such a large part of my identity now as a comedian.
Guest:I can't imagine...
Guest:Not having it.
Guest:But if at the end I can see the tally sheet and the column in comedian, sorry, the column not in comedian, I'd love to know where I would have ended up with and without it.
Guest:I mean, we know with.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I wonder if you were allowed to evolve naturally as opposed to be put in that position with that much attention and have no control over how you were sort of represented.
Marc:I wonder.
Marc:I guess it's not helpful in any way to speculate.
Guest:I mean, a large part of me feels like it's a gift that I was given this opportunity to be self-reflective and understand.
Guest:Well, that's good.
Guest:That's a good way to handle it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just don't want to be one of those people that says, oh, I'm over it.
Guest:It's 20 years ago, but it will be with me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like these people that lose a limb early on in life.
Guest:It's much similar.
Yeah.
Marc:You lost your career's leg.
Guest:I've been on one leg in comedy now for 20 years.
Marc:What's been the sustaining thing?
Guest:Well, it comes back to that spreadsheet I was talking about with did it help or didn't it help, the documentary.
Guest:And...
Guest:There's an executive producer, the guy who created Criminal Minds on CBS, Jeff Davis, was creating a new show called Teen Wolf.
Guest:He saw the documentary, and one day he's driving down Melrose, and he sees my name on the marquee, and he said, I want to go see if that guy's even funny.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:Okay, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So he goes in, and he said- He knew you from the documentary?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So he goes in, and he goes-
Guest:He goes, I was blown away.
Guest:I loved you.
Guest:You were really funny.
Guest:He kept coming back over and over again to see my show.
Guest:And then when he wrote this new show, Teen Wolf, which was on MTV, he wrote the part of Coach for me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I never audition.
Guest:I'm the only one that my agents.
Guest:Here's a good lesson for people.
Guest:My agent sent me a script and they said, this starts shooting next week in Atlanta.
Guest:This guy saw you on stage.
Guest:He's a fan of yours.
Guest:He thinks you'd be great for the coach.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I went down the street to the coffee shop.
Guest:I read it and I said, but so often I read scripts.
Guest:They don't make sense.
Guest:This one made perfect.
Guest:I go, I get it.
Guest:It's a well-written... And he wrote it for you.
Guest:Well, he wrote that part for me, but I understood the whole show.
Guest:It was like a nice love story of high school kids that turn into werewolves and kill each other.
Guest:So I said, I love it.
Guest:I'll accept the part.
Guest:And my agent said, no, no, he's not going to just give you the... You have to audition.
Guest:So let me call the casting person, and I'll tell them that you're free to... I said, hold on.
Guest:This is true.
Guest:I said, you call Jeff Davis back, because he called my agent, and you say...
Guest:Orny Adams will be in Atlanta next week to shoot the pilot.
Guest:You don't offer me to audit.
Guest:The minute I audition, I'm not getting the part.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The casting person is going to give it to one of their friends, whatever.
Guest:So that's how I got on this show, Teen Wolf.
Guest:And what I loved about it was, for the first time, I wasn't doing my lines.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had no responsibility.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just show up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then the fans, unlike stand-up, which our fans can be very critical.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:They don't even know you're stand-up, the fans from Teen Wolf.
Guest:It's like you were saying with your podcast early on.
Guest:People didn't know you were stand-up.
Guest:They still don't know I'm a stand-up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They still don't.
Guest:But do they come to the show?
Guest:No, not enough of them.
Guest:I mean, they'll follow me.
Guest:They're confused.
Guest:Like if they follow me on TikTok or Instagram, they're like, what's, oh, I didn't know you did stand up.
Guest:But how many episodes of the show has there been?
Guest:We did a hundred.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:Six seasons.
Guest:What's it on?
Guest:Now it's on Paramount+, it's been on Hulu, it's been on, I think Hulu, it's definitely been on Netflix.
Guest:So you make money in your sleep for this thing.
Guest:And it has nothing to do with me.
Guest:It's a massive hit.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I'm a side character, and really the success of my character is because of the writing.
Guest:But you're in every episode.
Guest:No.
Guest:That's why I'm of success, because they knew to put me in just enough.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I mean, I wish I was in more.
Marc:So this has been going on for what, five to eight years?
Guest:Yeah, and then we just shot a movie.
Guest:Really?
Guest:There's a trilogy that they're putting out.
Guest:How big's the part?
Guest:Good part?
Guest:No, it's never good enough for me.
Guest:No, it's great.
Guest:It's great.
Guest:You know, honestly, they brought back so many characters.
Guest:Over six seasons, there were so many characters.
Marc:Oh, so this is great.
Marc:This is like a happy ending to everything.
Guest:It's cool.
Guest:But you're making a living.
Guest:Of course I am.
Guest:I told you when the mics were off before we started this, I said, Mark, come on.
Guest:We did all right.
Marc:No, I know, but I'm just thinking of the stand-up, and I knew you did this, Teen Wolf, but that's a living and show business.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm on a show that went six seasons.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's rare.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, I feel better.
Marc:I'm still going to bust your butt.
Guest:You can bust my ball.
Guest:The fans are nothing but loving.
Guest:These fans are the nicest.
Marc:Well, that's great.
Guest:It's cool.
Marc:I'm glad you landed on your feet.
Marc:So what about this special?
Guest:So I've had three, but I just put my latest on YouTube.
Guest:is that that's all that you you self-produced it and you put it up there no i didn't it was on showtime oh it's called more than loud and you got it back yeah i bought it back oh good that's what i recommend to everybody own the tapes remember you you like when you study musicians yeah own the masters sure i mean i've got i've i get mine back i've got a couple back like my but i don't know is the material still you don't do anything timely
Guest:Well, no, but I mean, this is only a few years ago.
Guest:Okay, all right.
Guest:And, you know, really, does a guy going crazy over little things ever get a hold?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:No, that's true.
Marc:Yeah, I mean- I bet you my special that I did, I did one for, more later I did for Epix, and I got it back.
Marc:So I think I have that one.
Guest:I'm very weird.
Guest:Like I was telling you, I don't do many podcasts.
Guest:I just don't.
Guest:I'm of the camp where you don't overshare.
Guest:And I own this special.
Guest:I own three of my specials.
Guest:And I've never put them out.
Guest:Because I always think, well...
Guest:I'll get a deal with a streamer and I'll sell them these other specials.
Guest:My agent's like, just put it up on YouTube.
Marc:Yeah, it's just over.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The old style.
Marc:Why not get it out there?
Marc:See what happens.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you're there.
Marc:You're doing it still.
Marc:And you're always funny, man.
Marc:And I'm glad we did this.
Marc:Thanks for talking.
Guest:I agree.
Guest:I mean, I feel like this was fun.
Marc:Good.
Guest:And I'm glad I wasn't set up.
Marc:Oh, I'm not going to set you up.
Guest:Are we going to be cool now?
Guest:Yeah.
Okay.
Marc:All right, that was Orny Adams.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Shit, right?
Marc:I feel bad, but I feel good we talked.
Marc:He's at the Hollywood Improv this weekend, July 15th and 16th.
Marc:His podcast is called What's Wrong with Orny Adams.
Marc:Get that wherever you get podcasts.
Marc:And look, will you hang out for a second?
Marc:There's more stuff.
Marc:Just hang out.
Marc:Listen, folks, if you're a full Marin subscriber on WTF Plus, we posted this visit that I had with my dad in New Mexico last weekend.
Marc:And I recorded me going through some stuff, some pictures and stuff.
Marc:And it was really touching.
Marc:But it's only available to you full Marin subscriber people.
Marc:But like here, I'll play a little bit for you.
Marc:This is my dad recognizing the dogs from his childhood.
Marc:Do you remember this dog?
Marc:Yep.
Marc:You do?
Marc:Penny.
Marc:When did you have that dog?
Guest:Oh, I don't know.
Guest:But I remember him.
Guest:Penny, Penny, Penny.
Marc:Look at this.
Guest:Eleanor.
Marc:That's your mom, right?
Guest:Yep.
Marc:How about this one?
Guest:That's Grandma.
Marc:Ida.
Marc:Do you remember her?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Was she a nice lady?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did she talk much?
Marc:I don't remember her talking.
Marc:Was Barney her husband?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Was he a character?
Guest:I didn't know him.
Marc:You didn't?
Marc:He was dead already?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I don't remember him.
Guest:I love this picture.
Guest:It's Ben.
Guest:Your dad?
Marc:My dad.
Marc:Looks good in that pic, huh?
Marc:Yep.
Marc:You remember him talking much?
Guest:Yeah, more or less.
Marc:Look at this picture.
Marc:That was when you were a lifeguard?
Guest:Keppel Park, probably.
Marc:You're doing pretty good with this quiz of your life.
Marc:It's a dementia test.
Guest:That's the little dog.
Guest:Penny?
Guest:No, another one.
Guest:Inky.
Guest:Inky?
Yeah.
Marc:crazy he's got mild dementia but like you know the love of an animal transcendent forever eternal so look you can listen to that whole thing right now if you're subscribed if you're not go to the link in the episode description or click on wtf plus at wtfpod.com
Marc:OK, tomorrow and Saturday, I will be at Wise Guys in Las Vegas.
Marc:That's July 15th and 16th.
Marc:I'm bringing Esther Pavitsky with me.
Marc:We're going to have fun.
Marc:My dad's actually driving out from New Mexico with his wife to see some of those.
Marc:Then I'm back at Dynasty Typewriter in L.A.
Marc:for two shows, July 23rd and 24th.
Marc:Saturday is sold out, but there are still some tickets for Sunday.
Marc:I'll be at Just for Laughs in Montreal for my gala on Saturday, July 30th or my gala.
Marc:I'll also be doing solo shows up there on July 28th and 29th.
Marc:Then in August, folks, August and September, I'll be in Columbus, Ohio, Indianapolis, Indiana, Louisville, Kentucky, Lincoln, Nebraska, Des Moines, Iowa, Iowa City, Iowa, Tucson, Arizona, Phoenix, Arizona, Boulder, Colorado and Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Marc:Then in October, I'm in London, England and Dublin, Ireland.
Marc:Go to WTF pod dot com slash tour for all dates and ticket info.
Marc:OK.
Marc:OK.
Marc:So.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Look, I got to go take some vitamins and.
Marc:I'm having an okay day.
Marc:And I just got to say, if you can get an okay day in, if your balance between the micro and the macro is tolerable and one isn't
Marc:Fueling denial and the other one isn't fueling sort of self-annihulating depression.
Marc:If you can just ride that line, you're doing all right.
Marc:Okay?
Marc:You're doing all right.
Marc:I don't know what to do, but I know that.
Marc:You're doing all right.
Marc:I'm going to play some guitar.
Thank you.
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey.
Marc:La Fonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.