Episode 1347 - Naomi Ekperigin
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what the fuckadelics what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it i'm broadcasting from a bouncy room not a bouncy house
Marc:A bouncy room, a room where the sound bounces around.
Marc:There's no carpet.
Marc:There's nothing stopping the sound from bouncing all over this hotel room in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
Marc:My hometown where I am here, I've come back here.
Marc:I come here pretty frequently these days for one reason or another, but generally it's a good excuse to see my dad.
Marc:Sometimes that's the intention is to see my dad.
Marc:It seems that lately I've been looking at houses
Marc:in the area and also seeing my dad i don't know why i come home why does anyone go home how are you are you okay look at me are you okay look at me don't it's okay to cry look at me are you okay
Marc:i hope you're all right i don't know what to tell you i just it's always good to you know to go see my father but i have been looking houses and i get you know i get anxious and i have this idea in my head do you want to know who's on the show today i can tell you that first naomi ekperogen is on the show today
Marc:Yeah, that is her name.
Marc:Maybe some of you know her.
Marc:Maybe many of you do.
Marc:She's a stand-up comic.
Marc:She's been a writer on shows like Broad City and Difficult People.
Marc:She's been a regular on the podcast, Two Dope Queens.
Marc:And she actually has her own podcast called Couples Therapy.
Marc:We met once before.
Marc:When I was a guest on Two Dope Queens and she was filling in for one of them.
Marc:I can't remember which one.
Marc:But she's here.
Marc:I talked to her.
Marc:That was a nice talk.
Marc:I've been talking to the new generation of comics that somehow I seem to miss between COVID and me just kind of being in my own world.
Marc:It seems an entire generation of comedian has come up.
Marc:And I am engaging with the ones who seem to be out there and doing things.
Marc:A few of them anyways.
Marc:Obviously, I can't get to all of them.
Marc:But yeah, so I'm in my hometown.
Marc:Oh, you know what I should talk about?
Marc:James Caan died.
Marc:Also talking about my father.
Marc:There was a time my father is of...
Marc:Not quite the same cloth as James Caan, but he's a curly-haired Jew with shpilkus, with chutzpah.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:With the chuchach.
Marc:But there is some sort of continuity there.
Marc:But James Caan is dead.
Marc:He passed away.
Marc:And the episode that I did with him is available for free now in all the podcast apps.
Marc:It's one of the episodes that came out from behind the paywall just last week when we launched our new stuff, our new thing.
Marc:There's a lot of episodes available for free now.
Marc:So there's no need to sort of jack it up, take it out from behind the paywall, put it back in the feed.
Marc:It's already there.
Marc:I will alert people to them existing, but I don't need to do it the same way.
Marc:It was a great interview.
Marc:It was great fun to talk to that guy.
Marc:And it wasn't that long ago.
Marc:And he was, I mean, he was a little younger than my father, but one of the great tough Jews.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:We got to find, we have to figure out who the new tough Jew is.
Marc:There's a couple.
Marc:There's some around.
Marc:but not like him.
Marc:And I watched all those movies.
Marc:I cannot get the movie Thief out of my head really because I watched so many of his movies when I was about to talk to him and I rewatched that and it was tremendous.
Marc:So why does one get depressed when one goes to their hometown?
Marc:Well, first of all, I was driving down Real Grande Boulevard and you know, I lived down there towards the big curve on Real Grande.
Marc:I mean, I grew up there.
Marc:So theoretically I've driven down that road hundreds and hundreds of times to the point where the hotel I'm staying at this time
Marc:You come off of I-40, you take a left on real grand.
Marc:No less than three times have I taken a right out of force of habit from so many years.
Marc:But I do get depressed and it's not nostalgia.
Marc:I don't know what's compelling me to look at homes here or to look at maybe a place to have a house.
Marc:to end up in I just have this idea about New Mexico for a while it was Albuquerque and then I realized like I don't need to live in the city I grew up in it would drive me nuts but then I started thinking well that's not really what it's about it's not a nostalgia trip it's because New Mexico is beautiful it is northern New Mexico is beautiful and it has a profound impact on my psyche
Marc:But I've been looking at places up behind the mountain, up in Old 14, up in Cerrios, in that area, in between here and Santa Fe.
Marc:And this house came up, up there.
Marc:And in the pictures, it looked kind of amazing.
Marc:A little two-bedroom house that was once a little lavender farm, and it's beautifully landscaped, and it seems to be situated in the middle of the kind of rocky sort of hilly mountains back there up in that area.
Marc:But I swear to God, you guys, when I get just here with my own thoughts, I get profoundly sad.
Marc:And it's heavy, heavy-hearted.
Marc:And sure, it's about my dad, but it's also about New Mexico.
Marc:And I started to realize, like,
Marc:What am I looking for here?
Marc:Why am I looking at houses here?
Marc:Why would I want to come back here?
Marc:And I just find it's necessary for me at this point in my life to re-engage my memories, but not in some sort of weird nostalgia way.
Marc:I'm not nostalgic for anything, I don't think.
Marc:But I do think that coming home, there was something comforting about the idea that when this was your home, you'd go out into the world and then you'd come back home and you'd see people that you grew up with and be like, what have you been doing?
Marc:Where you been at?
Marc:How's it been here?
Marc:You know, you were younger people and this was always sort of a home base.
Marc:And then that drifts away if you leave home for good, where it's like, it's still your home, but you know, it's not, it's not the same.
Marc:You're not some returning, you know, a warrior with tales from the world.
Marc:Not really.
Marc:You're just a guy who grew up in a place who comes back looking for something to give his life meaning in a way, to see and remember where you come from, to re-engage your memories or to activate them so you can remember who you were and how you behaved at different points in your life.
Marc:In the world today, when we're just sort of saturated with
Marc:garbage and bullshit and drifting down rabbit holes and destroying our brains daily with so much information that just becomes almost, it's like a chaotic, like you're dumping a cyclone into your fucking head every day.
Marc:And on top of that, we're disjointed.
Marc:We're not in touch with people.
Marc:We're isolated in our own weird way.
Marc:Maybe you're Zooming.
Marc:Maybe you're texting.
Marc:But it's just there's something about wondering about who the fuck am I really?
Marc:Who am I in this world?
Marc:People keep chattering.
Marc:They keep talking.
Marc:Or people keep looking and scrolling and streaming and swiping.
Marc:It's just who are we?
Marc:How did we behave differently?
Marc:Back in the day when you actually talk to people in person, what were we doing when things were paced differently?
Marc:And I get into that groove when I come back to New Mexico.
Marc:But I think I had the realization this time coming back home that there is nothing for me here other than my memories.
Marc:And I go up to Cerritos to look at this house.
Marc:I meet two real estate agents there at a gate off of old 14.
Marc:We drive like a mile and a half on a dirt road into this pocket.
Marc:And the realtor representing the seller of the house said, it's like the hole in the wall gang.
Marc:And I'm like, oh my God, it kind of is from Butch and Sundance.
Marc:You just come upon this little pocket where it's surrounded by hills, this little house.
Marc:It's a little piece of property, a mile and a half in on a dirt road.
Marc:There's really nothing around.
Marc:There's another house, maybe a half a mile away, but it's out there.
Marc:It's in the sticks.
Marc:The woman who owned the place was just leaving.
Marc:And I looked at the place and it's cute as hell.
Marc:It used to be a lavender farm.
Marc:She used to run a little lavender business out of there.
Marc:I'm with these two women, these real estate agents.
Marc:We're talking a bit, but I'm just looking.
Marc:I'm standing out on the porch, and there's this wind coming through, and there's this silence that was amazing.
Marc:It wasn't quite a zen because there was a wind to it, but there was just this almost like prairie quiet, this mesa quiet, this...
Marc:you know, off the grid type of quiet, just the wind.
Marc:And it was so peaceful that I realized in that moment that if I lived there, even for a week, I would lose my fucking mind.
Marc:I can't I can barely I mean maybe I'd have things to do maybe I'd garden I just don't know if I'm cut out for that life maybe if I really want to live out here I should move closer to a city because it'd be a schlep to get in there and what if I fall down in the yard and I crack my head open I'm just going to lie there and rot until someone finds me and then like as we're driving out I mean it's beautiful and I really want to be the kind of person that could live that life I just don't know I need to be engaged man
Marc:And I don't know how good the internet is out there.
Marc:And as we're driving back, we see the woman who owns the place about a mile down the road, sitting in her car, using her phone, because that's where she could get cell signal.
Marc:And I'm like, I don't know, man.
Marc:So that fantasy is slowly dying.
Marc:The living off the grid in Cerritos, that might be slowly dying.
Marc:I don't know what to hang on to anymore.
Marc:But here's the odd thing.
Marc:I went up into the attic before I left for this trip to find my diploma because I need my diploma because I'm applying for something that requires my degree.
Marc:They need to see it with a lot of other stuff.
Marc:And I'm going through these boxes up in the attic, and I found this envelope of pictures of my father.
Marc:I don't know where I got them.
Marc:I must have got them from his aunt or maybe from my grandmother at some time.
Marc:But they're pictures of him when he was two, three years old in college.
Marc:Just a big bunch of pictures.
Marc:Childhood pets.
Marc:Stuff like that.
Marc:Him and his father when he was... Pictures of him when he was a teenager.
Marc:It was just this envelope that I'd completely forgotten I had.
Marc:And I was like, holy shit.
Marc:I'm going to take this to Albuquerque and I'm going to go through this with my father to sneak in a memory test with him, you know?
Marc:It was fortuitous or serendipitous, I think is better.
Marc:I had a conversation with the kid, the cat lady over which word is better, but probably serendipitous because I was leaving and I wouldn't have remembered having that thing.
Marc:So I got here and I went over to my dad's house to spend a few hours, took him to lunch.
Marc:uh the chinese place and we talked about stuff you know and like you know he's engaged there's stuff there it's not you know it seems it was seems maybe it was just he's having a good couple of days but we get back and i put the mics on him and eventually i think we'll we'll uh we'll release that as some of the bonus material for wtf plus uh members
Marc:But we went through these pictures and he remembered, man.
Marc:He remembered all his fraternity brothers.
Marc:He remembered his childhood pet's name, both of them.
Marc:It was kind of touching.
Marc:And in that envelope, there was a handwritten copy of his valedictorian speech from high school.
Marc:And he read it.
Marc:He read it.
Marc:He couldn't believe he wrote it.
Marc:It was kind of, it's sweet.
Marc:It was a sweet moment.
Marc:And it was just like, it was, you know, this is what you do, man.
Marc:This is what you do.
Marc:This is what I'm doing.
Marc:I come out here, I'm melancholy at first.
Marc:I get depressed and weirded out because I don't know what to do here anymore.
Marc:In terms of my history, a lot of it is like driving through a ghost town.
Marc:But it's not empty.
Marc:It's just the ghosts are just other people.
Marc:So it's just a very, there are chunks of time that disappear between, hey man, what are you doing since you graduated from college?
Marc:It's been a few years and now it's like, how's your health?
Marc:Is everything okay?
Marc:Are your parents still alive?
Marc:No, I heard about that.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Marc:This is what happens, man.
Marc:And I'm spending time with my old man.
Marc:That's what I'm doing.
Marc:Okay, so here we go.
Marc:Naomi Perigen.
Marc:I'm going to ask her about that name.
Marc:She co-hosts the podcast Couples Therapy, along with Andy Beckerman.
Marc:She has her own half hour of the Netflix series The Stand-Ups, and she's also on the Apple TV Plus series Mythic Quest.
Marc:This is me talking to Naomi Akeperogen.
Marc:yeah the pets are like i can't it's it's all so heartbreaking because i know now like with the world ending and stuff yeah you put more focus on you yep like it's just sort of like oh my god don't you you can't go yeah it's like terrible i know it's a little it's a little difficult and today was difficult i you know i didn't know
Marc:how it was gonna go, and I don't know when we'll run this, but this is the day that the world was dreading.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:They overturned Roe v. Wade.
Marc:What's the immediate thing do you feel?
Guest:you know, I am filled with a rage, but also a weariness, you know, a true weariness with the age, okay?
Guest:And because it is that, again, we knew this was coming, right?
Guest:They leaked the remix a couple weeks, a couple months ago, I mean.
Guest:So it's like, but at the same time, to just know that
Guest:You know, your rage is kind of useless.
Guest:You need some action on it.
Guest:And just the extent to which, I don't know, all I see around me is rage and tweets and correcting each other.
Marc:Yeah, I don't like that.
Marc:The horrible thing is that kind of like that heartbreaking powerlessness.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And it's like the rage goes right to almost like, it's very hard not to turn it, not inward, but there's nowhere for it to go.
Guest:To be paralyzed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's hard for it to not be paralyzing.
Guest:Like I did have pasta for breakfast.
Guest:I'm not lying.
Guest:Is that how I live?
Guest:No, Mark.
Guest:It's not how I live, but it's how I feel good for 20 minutes.
Marc:Today is pasta day.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:I said forget it.
Marc:I'm finding I'm doing that too.
Marc:It's like some more butter.
Yeah.
Marc:What's the point, man?
Guest:Mark, did you think, because I'm like, it sucks living through history.
Guest:I didn't think I was going to live through some actual history.
Guest:I could see the book being written as I live it.
Marc:Yeah, no, I used to do a bit about that.
Marc:About how most of us didn't think we'd see the end of the world, but it looks like we're going to get in under the wire.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Yeah, and for me to realize that this was...
Marc:enacted and overturned in my lifetime.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:But I mean, I was eight years old in 72, but it is something that was given and taken away in a lifetime.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And, you know, contextualizing all this stuff, it's just scary.
Marc:And I don't know...
Marc:You're a person of color.
Marc:I'm a Jew.
Marc:You know, there are things that are happening more frequently now that you don't, it's sort of like, what am I supposed to do?
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:I mean, well, of course, because we all talk about what we would have done if we had been there back in the day.
Guest:And then you realize the extent to which, well, because you know what it is?
Guest:It requires collective action that...
Guest:On one hand, we hear each other's mouth all the time on social.
Guest:On the other hand, we don't know nobody and we're not going to step up for anybody.
Guest:You know what women need to do?
Guest:We need to all not go to work for one day across the country.
Guest:But will we all get along?
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:We can't get a Google Doc going.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:We can't get an email chain going on that.
Marc:Yeah, but I don't think a lot of people are, I think there's a very complex shallowness going on.
Marc:I don't think that people really know the impact.
Marc:I mean, obviously with this, most women know the impact.
Marc:But with generally, I think people are very uninformed and there's a lot of information out there.
Marc:It's hard to contextualize it.
Marc:It's hard to know what's real and what isn't.
Marc:But most people don't give a shit if it doesn't directly affect them.
Marc:And most of the time they can't see how it directly affects them.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Well, one of my biggest nothing I hate more than when you hear a politician say, yeah, as a father of a daughter.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Why is it that you need to literally have made a woman to get the plight of a woman?
Guest:I know infuriates me like it has to be personal, whereas like to me, it's just like.
Guest:we all need the right to do with ourselves what we want with ourselves, and that should need to be personal.
Guest:Because also to me, it's also the triple.
Guest:It is both Roe v. Wade, Concealed Carry, and Miranda Wrights all in the same week.
Guest:And it's a pummeling.
Guest:I think that's why we need more butter, right?
Guest:Because that's like a triple hit in a way that if you do care, it feels like...
Guest:Oh, I know.
Guest:Well, they just want us dead.
Guest:They just want us dead.
Marc:Yeah, you can't breathe.
Marc:It's overwhelming.
Marc:With the choicing, I've been saying on stage, I've been talking to men specifically in my mind where I'm like, you know, most of you guys have paid for one of these.
So...
Marc:Where's your voices?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:For me, I go right to like, is it time to go yet?
Guest:I know.
Guest:But then I go, what else would I do?
Guest:Like, unfortunately, I have this dream and like only skill in one thing that I'm like, I guess I have to stay here.
Guest:Maybe London.
Marc:London.
Marc:I don't know if it's so great over there.
Guest:I know.
Exactly.
Guest:And I'm like, okay, maybe Canada might buy you another five years, right?
Guest:It might extend the time a little.
Marc:I think Canada, yeah.
Marc:Well, there's a lot less people in Canada.
Guest:That's true, that's true.
Marc:But it's not going well up there either?
Marc:It isn't.
Guest:Well, I just get the sense that it's not, because I'm hearing things, especially racially.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So it's like, what are we going to do?
Guest:Where are we going to go?
Guest:I mean, I was talking about Amsterdam just because I like it, and they speak English, so maybe they'll let me do stand-up.
Marc:It's a little, Amsterdam, the last time I was there, I was like, it's a little dirty here.
Marc:On a lot of levels.
Marc:It's a little like the tourist business has really sort of gotten nasty in a way.
Marc:It's a pretty city.
Marc:It's pretty.
Marc:But I was like, you know, if you don't want to smoke cash and you're not 20 and you're not fascinated with the legal prostitution.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It doesn't seem like a livable city to me.
Guest:Well, it feels like it's one of those really expensive cities, right?
Guest:It almost felt like, to me, central Amsterdam, which I saw, had that Times Square element.
Guest:Like, you don't want to live in Midtown.
Marc:You don't want to live where it's packed.
Marc:That old, sleazy Times Square element.
Guest:That vibe.
Guest:And it was funny.
Guest:I saw a dude.
Guest:I remember seeing a guy haggling with a sex worker.
Guest:And it was just like, babe, pay the price.
Guest:Pay the price, babe.
Guest:You already came here.
Guest:Don't you dare try to talk somebody down from the cost of what it is to lick your taint.
Guest:You've got to pay that person in full.
Marc:It's on the menu.
Marc:Price is listed.
Guest:Price is listed.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Now, where did you come from?
Guest:I grew up in New York.
Guest:New York City?
Guest:I grew up in Harlem, yep.
Marc:Really?
Marc:How far up?
Marc:135th.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yep.
Marc:Is it nice?
Yeah.
Guest:It is now?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know, so it's funny because, you know, I definitely, you know, I grew up 80s, 90s Harlem.
Marc:It wasn't good then?
Marc:It was just starting to get good or what?
Guest:It didn't start to get good till what?
Guest:When did Red Rooster come on 125th Street?
Marc:Oh, that's right.
Guest:When did the condo, when did Columbia start buying more places over that way?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What's that guy's name, the Red Rooster guy?
Guest:Marcus Samuelson.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:I used to watch him on Shopped.
Marc:I thought he was a smart guy.
Marc:I never ate there.
Marc:Did you eat there?
Guest:I did.
Marc:Is it good?
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:You know, it's interesting to me.
Guest:I always think reimaginings of soul food are funny to me.
Guest:That's not what I go to soul food for.
Marc:Yeah, there's never enough of it.
Marc:Anytime something's reimagined, it's like, this cornbread's a little small.
Guest:It's like cornmeal soup.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Guest:Evocative of cornbread, you know?
Guest:Yeah, just bring the cornbread.
Marc:These aren't colored greens.
Marc:This is like pureed something, you know, I don't know.
Guest:It's kohlrabi with a black-eyed pea puree.
Marc:No bacon, though.
Marc:No bacon.
Guest:I want it heavy and fatty.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, so, but it started, but was it a...
Marc:Did it shift up there because of a gentrification thing?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, it's funny just because growing up, so I grew up in Harlem.
Guest:I went to school up there until fifth grade.
Guest:Then I went to school in the Upper East Side.
Marc:What do your parents do?
Guest:My mom's a lawyer.
Guest:She's a family court attorney.
Marc:And your dad?
Guest:I don't know what his ass do, Mark.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:I don't know what he do now.
Guest:I don't know what he do now.
Guest:He was a lawyer.
Marc:He's not around anymore?
Yeah.
Guest:he ain't that far but we don't talk when did that start oh child we probably it got dicey for us around 2005 oh so you're kind of a grown-up already exactly well like no my parents divorced when i was very young okay so he was gone from maybe like 5 to 11 then he came back and was like hey i'm i'm out i'm
Guest:I'm out of rehab, you have a brother.
Guest:And I was like, okay.
Marc:And then- Wait, I'm out of rehab, you have a brother.
Guest:Yeah, I didn't know, because I knew you'd had some other lady, a younger brother.
Guest:And so we kind of interacted.
Guest:I would see him for a while in high school.
Guest:And then as I got to college, we started to drift in the way I think you just drift in college.
Guest:But the difference is I would go home to my mom, right?
Guest:So of course I saw her, whereas him, he was like, you never call me.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But your anger takes a different shape as you get older.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You don't understand when you're younger and you just want to be a connection.
Marc:But when you get older, you're like, oh, fuck that.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And it was also that feeling, too, where it's like, well, what?
Guest:And this is the thing I constantly wonder.
Guest:What does it look like now as a grown adult?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:To be like, daddy, what?
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:I don't know how you- It's like, who are you?
Marc:Who are you?
Marc:So you were how old when they got divorced?
Guest:Six, maybe.
Marc:Oh, so you kind of remember?
Guest:Kind of remember.
Guest:And then when he came back, when I was in my- But you knew he had problems?
Marc:I didn't know he had problems until he came back.
Guest:I didn't know what was going on.
Marc:And your mom didn't tell you ever?
Guest:Not until on the flip side.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know, it's so interesting to tell this, right?
Guest:Because, of course, I'm telling someone else's story.
Guest:And you know how some Black families can be about telling people business.
Guest:But I'll tell you, like, the moment.
Guest:So I was sitting at home one day.
Guest:I was 10 years old.
Guest:I was probably by myself for all of two hours.
Guest:Like, not much.
Guest:You know, my mom ran to do something.
Guest:But the phone rings, and I pick it up.
Guest:And a male voice, you know, and I'm like, hello, whatever.
Guest:He's like, is this Naomi?
Guest:And I said, yes.
Guest:He goes, do you know who this is?
Guest:I said, no.
Guest:He goes, it's your father.
Guest:I hung up the phone, screamed, almost called the police.
Guest:I said, I'm about to be murdered.
Guest:Who is this person?
Guest:What is this person doing?
Guest:Like, that was my intro.
Guest:That was him, I guess, being like...
Guest:Hi.
Guest:And so then when my mom came home and I told her what happened, she was like, okay, let me sit you down and tell you where he's been and what has happened.
Marc:And you were 10?
Guest:Yeah, like 10, 11.
Marc:And what was the lowdown?
Guest:That he had a drug problem, had been in rehab, had gone off, you know, obviously made another baby, did whatever he was doing, right?
Guest:Like, I don't think he called me like fresh from the bus station, right?
Guest:Like I think he had been out and done stuff.
Guest:Planned it, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But I don't know how long.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so, okay.
Guest:And then he was back and it was kind of like, okay, cool.
Guest:I have a dad.
Guest:He came back?
Marc:Or he just back in your life?
Guest:Back in my life.
Guest:They weren't together.
Guest:No, no, no.
Marc:Like, you know, but- What was his story?
Marc:I mean, where did he, like, you know, was he from New York?
Marc:He's from Nigeria.
Marc:Like, real Nigeria?
Guest:Real Nigeria, yep.
Guest:My parents met in law school in New York.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But he grew up, born and raised, all his family and siblings and everything like that.
Guest:My grandmother is a, his mother is a pastor in Africa.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yep.
Marc:Yep, yep, yep.
Marc:Well, that's kind of interesting, though.
Guest:Oh, yeah, it is.
Guest:It's funny, she texted me this morning.
Marc:Your grandmother?
Guest:Yeah, she texted me.
Guest:I, because, okay, so...
Guest:I was a little bit of an unplanned baby.
Guest:And so when my mom, after she had me, I lived with my grandmother in Nigeria for nine-ish months while my mom took so she could study and take the bar exam.
Marc:You went to Nigeria?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So your mom could have the space to do her work?
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Because she said, I got to raise the baby.
Guest:I'm going to have to get this lot done.
Guest:I'm going to have to pass it.
Marc:So she's going to have to go to Nigeria for night.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:That seems like a hell of a trip for a newborn.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I had to have been a couple months old by that point.
Guest:But I still am like, wasn't that a good 20 hours?
Guest:Like, how long was I on the plane?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Who took you?
Marc:Your dad?
Guest:I think my grandma might have.
Guest:She came and got you?
Guest:She would have flown in.
Guest:She would have flown maybe and took me back.
Marc:Interesting.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I think that's what I also think about.
Guest:That's wild that my mother had to do that.
Guest:Had to say, take my baby.
Marc:Yeah, I guess she didn't want to trust anybody too nearby because then she wouldn't get the space.
Guest:I wonder.
Guest:I mean, I assume.
Marc:Because she'd want to be over there.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You don't know.
Marc:You haven't asked her.
Marc:Like, why'd you just get rid of me for nothing?
Guest:I know why, but yeah, I was like, I guess what I want to ask her is, yeah, what did it feel like?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Why couldn't I have been closer?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Or that feeling of, you know, at times our relationship has been contentious.
Guest:And I do wonder, you know, now again, now on the other side of being an adult, you know, she had me at 24.
Guest:She had to go drop me off.
Guest:You know, I had to go to Africa for a hot minute.
Guest:That's a lot.
Guest:I had to go to Africa.
Guest:It was like, could you take the baby to Africa for a minute?
Marc:Wow.
Guest:That's a lot.
Marc:It's too hard you can't remember.
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, we used to go when I was younger.
Guest:Oh, you did?
Guest:When my parents were together.
Guest:You visited?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's such a long trip, man.
Guest:I love to travel, though.
Guest:I am a put me on a plane.
Guest:I hate the process of getting on the plane, but I actually love being on airplanes.
Marc:Yeah, but I've flown to Australia, and come 14 to 18 hours, I'm like, I've had enough of the plane.
Guest:I know what you mean, but you just kind of walk the aisles for a minute, stretch the legs.
Marc:But the bathrooms get so nasty.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:But it's just sort of like, what is wrong with people?
Marc:Do you ever find that in a plane bathroom?
Marc:It's like, what are you doing?
Guest:Mark, it's because we don't care about each other.
Marc:There's no class solidarity, and we're not forming a coalition to keep the bathroom clean after we use it.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:And I think people are just sort of like, I'm not going to clean it.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:But have you been to Africa as an adult?
No.
Guest:No, I have not.
Guest:I haven't been back since I was maybe eight, nine, a long time.
Guest:I have no sense of what it's like.
Guest:It'd be like going to a whole different world for me.
Guest:Well, it's interesting now, right?
Guest:Because I think what I know and what it is now is so very different in terms of having been built up, modernized.
Guest:Nigeria's got the whole Nollywood, Nigerian film industry.
Guest:Yeah, so it's a totally different thing than even what I know.
Marc:But you have family there still.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You want to come with me?
Guest:You can come with me.
Guest:And then everyone can be so focused on who this random white dude is that I don't have to have hard conversations.
Guest:You want to do that?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I guess.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'd go for a little while.
Marc:Not for a few weeks.
Guest:Okay, okay.
Marc:Yeah, well, you have to plan it.
Guest:Okay, okay.
Marc:So you're just growing up with your mom then mostly?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And no siblings that you knew of yet?
Guest:Not yet, nope.
Guest:I mean, I had the two younger brothers, but we sort of fell away again as I graduated college and went off into life, and my resentment for my father took over.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, but they're now adults.
Marc:So what was the school you went to?
Guest:High school?
Guest:You mean like middle school, high school?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Dalton?
Guest:What is that?
Guest:Dalton School?
Guest:It's like a fancy schmancy Upper East Side private school.
Guest:It is one of the ones you think of.
Guest:Whose idea was that?
Guest:My mom's because, so I was going to Catholic school up in Harlem, and then it turns out my mom found out, I think it was around when she found out that I was grading spelling tests.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:and no longer allowed like she was like oh no no no are you on payroll no then you cannot be doing that and it was all about you know challenging me i need to be challenged because you were gifted in certain ways yeah you know yeah a little smart yeah and how was dalton
Guest:It's funny.
Guest:It was terrible in the beginning.
Guest:And then I think I learned I made my way.
Guest:And so I think I left kind of being like, OK, that was fine.
Guest:But when I look back and I think in particularly when I got to college and realized like.
Guest:oh, there's nothing wrong with me.
Guest:It was them, maybe.
Guest:Like it was that space.
Marc:Like, oh yeah, like what made you feel?
Guest:Well, because, you know, there was, that's a level of wealth.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's like another level.
Marc:How many black people were there?
Guest:I was one of eight in my grade.
Marc:Oh man.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And also, too, when I started, because I started in sixth grade.
Guest:Yeah, it had to be six.
Guest:Anyway, but I was 10 because my birthday's late.
Guest:But I was already five, four, wearing a bra.
Guest:And all these little skinny white girls who were just like, I got made fun of for wearing a medium.
Guest:A medium.
Guest:Honey, I'd kill for a medium right now, Mark Merritt.
Guest:And it was like, and the shame I felt like just being bigger and, you know, no boys ever liked me.
Guest:So I thought it was hideous.
Guest:And then I got to college and then I was like, no, I ain't.
Guest:And then I'm like, it's all right.
Marc:That got corrected.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I think, but of course I learned a lot.
Guest:And I feel like in a way, given that...
Guest:Now I'm in a business where I'm judged by white people all the time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Dalton was a good training ground.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Started me early.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's like, I can't imagine that.
Marc:I mean, it's very hard for me to know what that would feel like, to feel isolated like that in a way.
Guest:Well, you grew up in New Mexico.
Marc:Yeah, but like- Were there Jews?
Marc:A few.
Marc:There was enough.
Marc:I mean, we went to Hebrew school, but I mean, being Jewish, you can sort of pass.
Guest:Yeah, sort of, but depending where.
Guest:Sometimes they won't let you.
Marc:They won't let you in certain places.
Marc:Well, I always think I could, but yeah, I mean, it wasn't, there was enough of, you know, I went to Hebrew school and stuff, and I still have friends who I grew up with that are Jewish.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But still, high school was just sort of, you know, it's basically town, you know, just.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was mostly in New Mexico, when I was growing up, it was probably 60 or 70% Latino.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:So there was that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it never felt like we were the minority.
Guest:You were alone.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Marc:Why are all the Jewish kids sitting together in the cafeteria?
Marc:No, no.
Marc:All the Jews were spread out, and there was a few at my school.
Marc:And maybe we weren't understood, but we weren't Hasidic.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It wasn't like, why can't you go out on Friday night?
Marc:I can.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:But to be one of eight, I mean, it's got to be Isaac.
Guest:Well, it was also different.
Guest:I remember so distinctly before I started, I was like, I thought white people would be nice because they were nice on TV.
Guest:And I knew that white girls wash their hair every day because that's what I heard on TV.
Guest:That's what I knew about white folks.
Guest:And I certainly didn't know when people were like, I'm Jewish.
Guest:I didn't know that Jewish was different from white.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or in its own way, right?
Marc:Kinda, I guess.
Marc:I mean, I don't know.
Guest:Well, as it was described to me, like, okay, we're a group doing our own thing.
Marc:Right, right, right, right.
Guest:I didn't know that.
Guest:And then I, you know, didn't understand, like, so, you know, I started in sixth grade, seventh grade is bar and bat mitzvah season.
Marc:And that becomes... You were doing making the rounds?
Guest:Making the rounds, honey.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Still remember a half Torah portion after all these years.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But if that was upper class stuff, they must have been themed parties.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Tavern on the green, Henny.
Guest:We've got the Nick City dancers coming through.
Guest:Highest classes.
Guest:Never been to a party as great as a bar mitzvah.
Guest:To this day.
Marc:Because when I was a kid, I mean, I was in New Mexico, but they didn't have those themed.
Marc:I've heard some crazy stuff about that.
Guest:That's what my fiance says, too.
Guest:Because he grew up in Pennsylvania, and he's like, mine was at the temple.
Guest:Okay, calm down.
Guest:The party was at the temple?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, like downstairs, you know?
Guest:He's like, that's a different thing.
Marc:So you're engaged to a Jewish guy.
Guest:Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Guest:I mean, I say husband and fiance interchangeably because it's been over 12 years at this point.
Guest:But yeah.
Guest:Yeah, so you know.
Guest:There it is.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:But it's just funny because growing up in New York, I didn't know Jews were a minority.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And as far as I knew, they was everywhere.
Guest:And they was thriving.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then he was like, I mean, that's New York.
Guest:That's not the rest of the country.
Guest:You're right.
Marc:With all this attention being paid to anti-Semitism, because there seems to be much more of it, as a Jew, you start to sort of like, you're like, really?
Marc:There's only that many of us?
Marc:That's not enough.
Marc:It's not enough.
Guest:The numbers are very low.
Marc:When you look at the percent, it's low.
Marc:Like if they really focused.
Marc:Yep.
Yeah.
Marc:It's scary.
Guest:It's very scary.
Guest:What are we going to do?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Should I buy a bunker?
Guest:I've been trying to save money to buy a house, but now I think I should put it into a bunker.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Like a bunker, that's sort of for like, I think more of an explosive ending.
Marc:If you're going to get a bunker with a turret and guns.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:If you're thinking of the whole compound.
Guest:I am thinking compound.
Guest:I just think that I'm mostly gonna be living underground.
Guest:You see what I'm saying?
Guest:Because also too, think about how that sun is gonna kill us all, right?
Guest:It's gonna be so bright.
Guest:The heat is unending.
Guest:I wanna be under where it's cool.
Marc:Well, we'll see.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Maybe just a rainy place.
Marc:I'd settle for water.
Guest:Yes, just having some fresh, just having some freshy nearby.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I get that.
Marc:Yeah, for sure.
Guest:Well, you know they say Ohio is where we got to go.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because it's a great lake.
Marc:Is that it?
Guest:Yeah, apparently we're in the middle.
Guest:They got that lake there, fresh, fresh.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Ohio, I heard Montana maybe.
Guest:They don't want us in Montana.
Guest:We can go to Vermont though.
Guest:Vermont will be good for us, but we'll be freezing.
Guest:It's going to be cold.
Guest:Yeah, we'll be freezing.
Guest:We'll die the first winter.
Marc:Vancouver I like.
Guest:Now, does that get really cold?
Marc:It doesn't get really cold, but it gets rainy as fuck.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Marc:So what happened?
Marc:So where'd you go to college?
Marc:So what'd you learn at that prep school?
Marc:Did you do theater or anything?
Guest:A little bit.
Guest:I did a very little bit.
Guest:But that is definitely where I started to get that itch.
Guest:Like I went and would audition for the play.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I didn't get in, but that's fine.
Guest:But then when I got to college, I went to Wesleyan in Connecticut, Middletown, Connecticut, which is...
Marc:That's another fancy school.
Guest:Yeah, liberal arts, cute, fancy.
Guest:It's definitely also too, Wesley, back then when I was a freshman, the gender neutral pronouns were Z and Z-er.
Marc:What the hell is that?
Guest:That was before we were saying they, them.
Marc:Z-er?
Guest:Z?
Marc:Yeah, like Z. You mean I missed a whole thing?
Guest:Yeah, you missed that.
Guest:That was like beta.
Marc:What year was that?
Guest:2001.
Marc:Oh my God, I'm really starting to be that guy.
Marc:What year?
Marc:When was that?
Marc:How old are you?
Marc:How did I miss all of that music?
Guest:I don't keep up with any music.
Guest:I'm definitely, when it comes to all that, I feel, I try to go on TikTok.
Guest:And I can't, it upsets me.
Guest:I made an account only because someone was like, there's a clip of yours on TikTok that's going viral, so to speak, whatever.
Guest:So I said, oh, I better get on TikTok.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I can't keep up with that.
Marc:Who put the clip up?
Marc:How does that happen?
Guest:It was a clip from my late night set that they kind of took down to a minute.
Guest:It was some account that was like, you know, like daily laugh.
Marc:They just liked it?
Marc:Oh, okay.
Guest:They just like found, you know, they just can kind of put it up.
Marc:Do they need rights for that or it doesn't matter?
Guest:I guess not.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did it go viral?
Guest:It got like over a million and people were like, funny, funny, funny.
Guest:And I'm like, okay, they don't even know it's me.
Guest:I need to get some.
Guest:I don't know that part, Mark.
Guest:I've never understood the businessy part, the online part.
Marc:But you're on Instagram, right?
Guest:I'm on it, but like in terms of
Marc:You're not making cute things.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:I don't have a concern.
Guest:It's like, I'm not sitting there going, how do I build this brand?
Marc:I don't either.
Marc:I'll do some live Instagrams and hang out, but I don't, I don't know.
Marc:Like the other day I was sort of like, do I need to be on TikTok?
Marc:And I'm like, I'm 58 years old.
Marc:I mean, like the weird thing is, is I could probably do something weird enough for kids to enjoy, but then I'll just get hooked on it.
Marc:It's not going to help me any.
Marc:I'll just be feeding it every day.
Guest:But then also too, do you want that?
Guest:Do you want them to come to your shows?
Guest:Not really.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:I've heard that there are people doing sets specifically to get TikTok videos.
Marc:Like, they're doing crowd work.
Marc:Like, I know guys who have people who open for them on the road who are local comics that just do crowd work with their phone on so they can get TikTok videos.
Guest:And then repost it.
Marc:Right, but they don't give a shit about the show.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:They don't give a shit about what it means to be part of the show.
Guest:Cool.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Cool, isn't that fun?
Guest:Isn't it cool and great to be here as you watch everything you work towards as a comic just be relegated to nothingness?
Marc:I just don't even bring opener anymore.
Marc:I just go on and I just do the long sets.
Guest:I just want to get to a point, and I'm looking forward to a point where I can fill a house of people who are there to just see me.
Guest:I think it can happen in the major cities, but I think it's that feeling because it's interesting
Guest:Because I started stand-up in like 08.
Marc:What did you do in college?
Guest:I was a film and English major, but I did improv.
Guest:I did theater.
Guest:That's where all the acting and everything started.
Guest:That's where it all popped off.
Marc:There was an improv group on campus?
Guest:Yeah, there were several.
Guest:Come on now.
Marc:Liberal Arts College.
Marc:That had been there for a while?
Marc:Was there a long-running improv?
Guest:Yes, it was called Gag Reflex.
Marc:Of course.
Guest:We were long-running.
Marc:That's a good one, though.
Guest:That is a good one.
Marc:It's better than Mixed Nuts.
Guest:The other one was Desperate Measures.
Marc:That's pretty good.
Guest:And then there was a third and I'm blanking on them.
Marc:Were you competing?
Marc:Was there a competition?
Guest:Not really, but you know, it was like each one had to do their own kind of thing.
Guest:Like we were long form and they were short form.
Marc:Oh, so you were doing Harold's or no?
Guest:Were we?
Guest:We were doing Armando's.
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:And that's kind of how I found standup because that would be the form where someone would give a word.
Guest:One of us would do a monologue and then we do scenes off the monologue.
Guest:And I was like, oh, I just want to do the monologue part.
Marc:That's called Armando's?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was like, that's all I want to do.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:These don't need other people.
Guest:Yeah, and it's also like, these other people are a wild card.
Guest:Once we get into the scene, I'm like, what are you saying?
Marc:I have no control over the others.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:I need to just focus on what I'm doing.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:But I still did improv for a little bit too at UCB in New York after I graduated, partially just the sense of I didn't know what else to do.
Guest:I was like, what's the outlet?
Marc:Did you make films in college?
Guest:We did like a couple of shorts, but I ended up writing.
Guest:I wrote a screenplay.
Guest:A full feature?
Guest:Yeah, and that was my thesis, and that's kind of what I thought I was going to do when it was all over.
Guest:Did you sell it?
Guest:No, I didn't sell it.
Marc:What was it about?
Guest:I can't even tell you.
Guest:It was like so bad.
Guest:It's just like a first screenplay.
Guest:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:It was like black woman on a journey.
Guest:Like really kind of like.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Where did that journey take that black woman?
Guest:Back to herself.
Yeah.
Marc:It was the worst.
Marc:Was it a comedy?
Guest:Yes, it was supposed to be a comedy.
Guest:It was supposed to be a comedy.
Marc:Did they grade you well?
Guest:Of course they did.
Marc:What are they going to do?
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Hey, black lady, you don't know what you're talking about.
Guest:Sounds beautiful.
Guest:It was so funny.
Guest:My film professor said to me, we were having a meeting about the script, and I think I had maybe given her an outline, and she goes,
Guest:This is really meaningful.
Guest:You know, my sister had a black boyfriend in 1948.
Guest:Oh, so we're like family.
Marc:Okay, cool.
Marc:I think that's a funny part about certain types of white people.
Marc:I imagine you must, I think you kind of talk about it in your act at some point in one of the Jan and...
Guest:Susan and Jan.
Marc:Susan and Jan.
Guest:My finest Palm Springs.
Marc:Weird declarations they make to black people to try to make a connection.
Marc:My brother dated a black woman in the 40s.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:Congratulations.
Guest:Good for you.
Guest:What have you done for me lately?
Guest:You know what I mean?
Marc:So now what's your mom, the lawyer, think about all this show business stuff that you're thinking about doing in college?
Guest:It was funny.
Guest:At one point I was like, I want to drop my English major and just do film because it was like I had these maybe two or three English credits where I was like, this is a pain in my ass to try to film them.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And she was like, absolutely not.
Guest:I am not spending money for you to learn about movies.
Guest:Nobody needs to learn about movies.
Guest:She was like, you are keeping that English major.
Guest:Oh, she put her foot down, yeah.
Guest:And when I kind of got back to New York and I started doing stand-up and...
Guest:My first job out of college, though, I was an actor with the National Theater of the Deaf, which was based in Connecticut.
Marc:What is that?
Guest:It was children's theater, and it was me and two deaf actors, and we would travel the country.
Marc:Do you know how to sign?
Guest:I do, not as well now, but I did then, and I worked as an interpreter for a little bit after.
Guest:I got out of that after that year.
Marc:How did that come about?
Guest:I literally just got into it.
Guest:I took an after-school program and they taught us how to sign America the Beautiful.
Guest:They were like, we're gonna teach you guys this and you're all gonna put it on for the parents.
Guest:And I just loved it.
Guest:I was like, okay, we can talk with our hands?
Guest:Okay, this is happening?
Guest:This is happening among people.
Guest:And so I got really interested.
Guest:And then I got to college.
Guest:I took some sign language classes there.
Guest:I was a counselor at a camp for deaf and hard of hearing children one summer.
Guest:And then because I was already at school in Connecticut and the National Theater of the Deaf was pretty close, I'd seen them perform.
Guest:And so I also knew when they were having auditions and I was like, what else am I going to do?
Guest:And so I just auditioned.
Guest:And then next thing you know,
Marc:So you're acting by signing?
Guest:Yeah, I was voicing and signing.
Guest:So for the deaf actors, they'd be signing, I would voice their lines, and then my lines I would sign and speak at the same time.
Marc:That seems like a very rarefied skill.
Marc:In a way.
Guest:I really would like to keep up with it.
Guest:There's a comic in New York named Andrew Fisher, who is deaf, and he and I would sometimes get together.
Guest:I was like, I want to sign with someone.
Guest:And then, of course, we would talk comedy and stuff like that.
Guest:Yeah, just meet at a coffee shop and just kind of work it out.
Guest:And he'd correct me when I was like, what's this word again?
Marc:Does it evolve, signing?
Marc:I guess there's two kinds, right?
Marc:There's a standard signing.
Marc:Aren't there two...
Guest:Well, there's ASL and like signed English and ASL has its own syntax.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so signed English.
Marc:Signed English is spelling?
Guest:No, signed English is like, for instance, in ASL, if I wanted to say I went to the store, I would say I would sign yesterday store I go.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Whereas if I was going to just sign to you in English, I would say like, I went to the store yesterday.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:So that's the newer one?
Guest:It's just like not newer.
Guest:I think it's just sort of, you know, deaf people with other deaf people are going to sign ASL.
Guest:And maybe if you are talking to a hearing person or their sign isn't great, you might sign English with them.
Guest:You got to know two languages.
Guest:Kind of.
Guest:Basically, right?
Guest:Because if you read a book, the book is in English.
Guest:The book is in English syntax.
Marc:Right, right.
Guest:So you'd have to.
Marc:I guess we all kind of have to learn a few languages in terms of who we talk to.
Guest:Well, ain't that the truth?
Guest:I'm learning with age to stop changing, because I definitely used to change how I interacted, especially with white people.
Guest:And now I've just really let it go.
Marc:What was the difference?
Guest:I would just rein it all in, because white people are sensitive.
Guest:And so I wouldn't be as...
Guest:I got like to tease a little bit.
Guest:I'm a little overly familiar.
Guest:I'm a little like, I'll tell you about yourself.
Guest:And I used to just really not do that.
Guest:I also used to just be a much shyer person.
Guest:And now I think I'm just kind of like whatever.
Guest:Like it's funny to me, like my audience is,
Guest:White girls love me, Mark.
Guest:And I'm like, really?
Guest:I thought I was literally roasting you for 45 minutes.
Guest:And yet, they're showing up.
Marc:Sure, they feel seen.
Marc:And they feel like they deserve it.
Marc:It's perfect.
Marc:Finally.
Marc:No, I like in Iraq when you get that anger voice going.
Marc:It's a deeper kind of ragey thing.
Guest:Oh, I love anger.
Guest:Don't I feel good?
Guest:It's like stretching.
Guest:It's like stretching your legs when you just get to yell with a talking stick.
Marc:Okay, so you graduate and you get your degree in English and film.
Guest:Yup, and I do the National Theater of the Deaf for like a year.
Guest:That's a long time.
Guest:And then I come back to New York.
Marc:And what's your mom saying?
Guest:Get a job.
Guest:Get a job.
Marc:Did she ever want you to go to law school?
Guest:Well, she thought she was like, you know, Naomi, with my English degree, that's how I, you know, that's what got me to law school.
Guest:So you could do a lot with English.
Guest:So, you know, it was funny because it was like times when I would say I would be between jobs or I would be temping.
Guest:And, you know, at one point she told me, she was like, I didn't work this hard for this to be your life.
Guest:And it was like, you know, that to me is the difference between, you know,
Guest:Again, I didn't grow up poor, but I certainly grew up with an awareness of what money was and what we had and what we couldn't.
Marc:It's sort of being awoken from the illusion of privilege.
Guest:Yes, yes, yes.
Guest:And just like, oh, you know, the people who are like, your 20s are for playing, right?
Guest:Like some people's parents feel that way and are like, okay, you're just going to kind of putter around for a little bit.
Guest:And it was very much like, you need to work.
Guest:So it wasn't until...
Guest:So I'm doing stand-up, right?
Guest:And my mom would ask me about it, but then she was, you know, I'd be like, oh, yeah.
Guest:I was like, oh, it's fine.
Guest:I was like, oh, small crowd or no one there.
Guest:You know, like a bar show in New York.
Marc:Well, yeah, like where were you doing it, though?
Marc:You were at UCB for how long?
Marc:You just took some classes?
Guest:Yeah, I just took some classes.
Guest:I'll say like a couple years.
Guest:Long enough to meet the nice Jewish boy.
Marc:Oh, the guy you got now?
Guest:Yeah, then get out of Dodge.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you didn't like the sketch work, that work at all?
Guest:Oh, like the improv and stuff?
Guest:Again, as I said, I didn't like...
Guest:having to rely on other people.
Marc:Yeah, but it didn't help you writing, you don't think?
Marc:Being around other people?
Guest:No.
Guest:Not really?
Guest:No.
Guest:I didn't do sketch.
Guest:It was just the improv classes.
Guest:So I felt like, and then my, the final class I took was me and 14 dudes.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That was my very last class.
Guest:And I was like, nah, I'm done.
Guest:I'm done here.
Guest:I cannot continue this life.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Interesting.
Marc:It was that dudes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was me and the 14 of them.
Guest:And I actually ran into, I forget somebody, you know, here on LA and he's like, do you remember in our class when we did that scene about a clitoris convention or something?
Guest:And I was like, yeah, I do.
Marc:He felt uncomfortable.
Marc:It almost feels like there should have been an apology that followed that question.
Guest:right absolutely it's like and i'm like and then he's like oh my god i'm so embarrassed i was like well y'all really kept at it it's like yeah it was wild where were you doing stand-up at the beginning just mics and stuff yep mics a lot of you know the east village west village bar shows yeah yeah and i think i got up you know i wasn't someone 2008 yeah 2007 2008
Guest:i mean i really would say about those first five years right like i'm just kind of doing bar shows and stuff union hall and bell house and all that that hasn't popped off yet it hasn't it was like kind of it kind of came up so merman wasn't doing his thing yet he was no no he right he had his shows but they weren't there yet weren't they at um what was the name i'm blanking on the name of the place because i wasn't in with those i wasn't in with those people
Marc:Were they a little older?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I just talked to somebody else.
Marc:I talked to, who was I talking to?
Marc:Like there's a whole generation of comics that I just missed because I was already doing this.
Marc:And like a lot of you comics from when I started this in 2009.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You were just starting.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:So there's no way for me to know.
Marc:You would have just been like open micers.
Marc:I know.
Marc:But now it's like 2022 and you're all grown up comics.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So now I've got this whole other world of comedians to talk to who actually have chops and have paid some dues.
Guest:Oh, thank you so much.
Guest:Well, I mean, because I was listening to you.
Guest:And it was, of course, my husband that got me into this podcast.
Guest:And I would listen to it like, what are comedians saying?
Guest:What are the working guys saying?
Marc:Did you take anything away from any of that?
Guest:I mean, to me, I am.
Guest:If you let me get into stand up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like talk about it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I can get very didactic in terms of like you need to be able to stand up and make a crowd laugh with your words.
Guest:I don't want to see nothing else.
Guest:I want to see no PowerPoint presentation.
Marc:No, no, no, no.
Marc:Amplified charm.
Marc:I.
Marc:I mean, you can have your charm.
Guest:I just want... You know what I also like, though?
Guest:And I do think that you are part of this shift.
Guest:I like people who are being themselves.
Guest:I want to watch somebody and get a sense of who they are.
Marc:Yeah, me too.
Guest:And so even if I don't like it, it's like I love feeling like I'm being taken on a ride or invited in.
Guest:And so I have a hard time connecting with a lot of character stuff and ironic stuff, which is like not bad, but I'm like, well, it's easy if I just say...
Guest:LOL, that's not me.
Marc:Right, right.
Guest:It's wet.
Marc:Or just sort of snark even.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Or jokes for joke's sake.
Marc:It's different.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, like, there are guys that I know that, who's character, like, there's some just joke people, but it's so specifically their point of view, you can kind of see who they are.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But there's nothing better than watching someone being authentic fail.
Marc:Then you really, you can really, really get to know that person.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How does the authentic guy tank?
Guest:I love it, though.
Guest:I did a set last night that was... Where at?
Guest:Permanent Records over in... Yeah, I know Permanent Records.
Marc:Lance?
Guest:The guy who owns it?
Marc:Yeah, the little blonde-haired guy that owns it.
Guest:I haven't seen him.
Marc:Yeah, the long blonde hair.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I know him for years.
Guest:Wait, have you done that show?
Guest:Or like any show there now?
Marc:I've got records there.
Marc:No, he asked me to do them.
Marc:I'm like, you know, dude, as much as I love you, I think I'm beyond record store shows.
Marc:I'm just not...
Marc:I'm not going to do it.
Marc:I'm just going to do comedy at the Comedy Store where comics do comedy.
Guest:You know what's funny, though?
Guest:Well, first of all, my very first open mic was at the Comedy Store in 2005, honey.
Marc:On a Monday?
Marc:A Monday night potluck?
Guest:Yep.
Marc:For three minutes?
Guest:Yep.
Marc:How was that?
Marc:Horrible?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was so funny because I was visiting LA, visiting a friend, and I had just finished working with the National Theater of the Deaf.
Guest:So, of course, my three minutes were just about working with the deaf.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did you do any sign bits?
Guest:No, I didn't sign, but I just talked about that.
Guest:But it was so funny because I went up and I saw these people lining up and I was like, oh, fuck.
Guest:I didn't realize that I may not get on it.
Guest:And then the woman, she had like a long blonde hair, older white lady.
Guest:And she looks at me and she goes, you're pretty.
Guest:You will probably get up tonight because you have a girl's name.
Guest:It's like what she said to me when they're picking the names off the list.
Guest:And so I was like, okay, so I guess I'll wait around, right?
Guest:So...
Guest:I did get up.
Guest:I did my time.
Guest:Two friends who were with me, they came, and the few people that were paying attention laughed.
Marc:Oh, good.
Guest:So I was like, okay.
Marc:And that's weird, because the potluck, they keep the lights half on.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:You can see everybody.
Guest:You can see everybody.
Marc:You can see everything.
Marc:Because I actually did a spot on the potluck, because I just was there.
Marc:I got there early, and I just went up for a little while, I think, for the fuck of it.
Marc:Yeah, it's...
Marc:Look, I got nothing against alternative spaces.
Marc:I like the context to be solid.
Marc:I don't want to struggle for some hipsters anymore.
Guest:That's so interesting because for me, I find it like I don't try to go to clubs.
Guest:And this is on me.
Guest:I'm like, should I try to get past the cellar?
Guest:Should I try to get past the comedy store and all that?
Guest:I don't want to struggle through people who...
Guest:Decided to just come see comedy today.
Marc:I get it.
Guest:And that's less of my thing.
Marc:Well, it's a less forgiving bunch.
Marc:They have specific expectations.
Marc:And if you're not going to land a joke every 15, 20 seconds, they're not going to have patience.
Guest:And that's the thing.
Guest:I like to go on a little journey.
Guest:I know you better relax.
Guest:But at the same time, I do feel like for me as a comic where I'm at, it's like I need to go into those spaces and stop being so scared because I think it's a holdover of the early days.
Guest:You know, it's a holdover of like bringer shows, fucking Gotham, you know, like it's that kind of feeling.
Marc:Yeah, I get it.
Marc:I mean, I came up in a time where you had to do the job.
Marc:So for better or for worse, that put in a lot of work ethic and also made me sort of realize, and I didn't really realize it all the time, I was a guy that would like, I'd blame them if something wasn't working, you fuckers.
Marc:But then you start to, as I've gotten older now, I can navigate it.
Marc:I can do the thing that you like to do and figure it out.
Marc:Because if you're a writer, you beat it out.
Marc:Whatever anybody says about you're just telling stories or this or that, when you have a good story, there's a joke every 15 seconds.
Marc:Really?
Marc:And then if you just have that in your head, you can do the other thing.
Marc:But the problem with the comedy club space, and I imagine it's not just a...
Marc:a silly fear is that it's a attention span thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That, you know, to do long form shit, you know, you got to hold these people.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Whereas in a more supportive space, they kind of know the score, you know, they're already going to go with you.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Guest:They're for the love of the game, meaning for comedy itself.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Whereas I often feel like in a club setting they're there for a specific person or the promise of specific people.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Or their idea of comedy.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Totally.
Marc:You know, which is the mainstream idea.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And then also in a comedy club, you might have to go up after Jezelnik.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Or Sebastian.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Marc:You know, which to me, sometimes it's, I still, I'm sort of like, oh, God.
Yeah.
Marc:But that's something that where even now I have to overcome is that that fear of sort of like, just go up and do your thing, stupid.
Marc:You're not 22.
Marc:You're just another guy.
Marc:And so if it sucks for a few minutes, so be it.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And I mean, I will say that like when I bomb now or it's not good, I don't feel bad anymore.
Guest:And that for me is the sign of maturity more so than like the actual things I quote unquote get.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:The ability to like eat it and then be like, oh, I'm fine.
Guest:Whereas before it would be like, kill yourself.
Guest:It's over.
Guest:You can't hack it.
Marc:I still get that sometimes.
Marc:I hate the feeling, because as you get older, you realize that sometimes it's just going to happen, and there's nothing you can do about it.
Marc:It's the nature of the audience.
Marc:Not all audiences are good, and sometimes they're just not going to give you the energy, but it certainly stinks to have to stand up there for an hour
Marc:At that medium energy shit.
Marc:Oh God, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, because you're like, this is just it.
Marc:The way it is, it's got nothing to do with you.
Marc:But there's some part of you that thinks you're fucking blowing it.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Oh God, I was at the Comedy Attic in Bloomington.
Guest:This would have been pre-pandemic.
Marc:I love that place.
Guest:But when I'm telling you, they had to paper to get people out for my ass, okay?
Guest:So it was like the Friday Late Show and it was people who were there because they didn't have to pay and I could see it in their eyes and I tried to win them over.
Guest:And when you're just like, I'm just looking at these dead eyes and I got to power through.
Marc:You feel that sweat on the back of your neck.
Guest:How do you the front, the upper lip?
Guest:It's quick and it's right up top.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Mine's hidden.
Marc:If it starts coming out of my forehead, we're really in trouble.
Marc:Well, so you really look back and you kind of avoided clubs.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you were able to do it in all those alternative spaces.
Guest:I was, there were a lot, you know, again, you know, look, I was never a, you know, five spots a night running around.
Guest:Certainly I love a two show night in New York, you know, getting on my train.
Marc:When did you start the writing though?
Marc:How did you make a living in show business?
Guest:Well, and this is the question and this is the thing that, you know, sometimes I feel like, you know, and maybe you felt this at some point, I don't know when it was for you, but that sense of like, when I started, my goal was just to be good at standup.
Marc:Just to be an undeniable standup.
Marc:It's still that.
Guest:But I felt like in the course of that, it changed.
Guest:Now it's like, you could be fine at stand-up, but where's your spec script?
Guest:Where's your online following?
Guest:All these pieces now?
Guest:And I really still feel like it was up until 2010, you could kind of get away with just being good at stand-up.
Guest:Again, coming out of film major, English and all that, I do like to write.
Guest:It wasn't like it was something I was making myself do, but
Guest:Basically, what happened was, so I was working a day job at an art magazine.
Marc:What magazine was that?
Guest:It was called American Artist.
Guest:And I was the editor of its quarterly watercolor magazine.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:That seems very specific and weird.
Guest:Honey, I was coming out.
Guest:I said, fun with gouache.
Guest:I said, how to make acrylics work.
Guest:I said, let's go landscapes.
Guest:And I had editor's notes and everything, Mark.
Guest:And I don't know nothing about art.
Guest:Shout out to managing editor Brian Riley, who I know is listening to this because he would listen to this at work.
Guest:He would literally be like on his spreadsheet.
Guest:I was like, are you listening to a podcast?
Guest:He gave you the gig?
Guest:He was the guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And like, I would, but you know, I knew how to write.
Guest:I knew how to interview somebody and get the basics.
Guest:I was basically like, tell me how you paint your paintings.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Watercolor is nice.
Guest:It's pretty.
Guest:It's non-toxic.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And also like, there's a lot of range to it.
Marc:People who can do that well, watercolor, it's sort of impressive.
Marc:Because you got to work fast.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You got to work fast and to build up color without it getting muddy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:There you go.
Marc:You do know.
Marc:You know your shit now, right?
Marc:I know.
Guest:But I got laid off in January 2013.
Guest:And so, but around that time, again, you know, I'm doing stand-up bits and pieces.
Guest:And I met Alana Glazer through that.
Guest:And so when, and at that time, you know, Broad City is about to become a thing.
Guest:And so it was May 2013.
Guest:I didn't have a job, you know, I was collecting unemployment.
Guest:And I was like telling everybody, I was like, I'm out here in the streets if you have a job.
Guest:And she said...
Guest:So we have this writer's assistant job.
Guest:If you want to apply for it, you know, I don't know.
Guest:I don't think it's going to be high paying, whatever.
Guest:And I go, honey, if it's more than unemployment, I'll be there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I didn't know.
Guest:And to me, it was like, oh, cool.
Guest:I'll get to like work on a TV show.
Guest:And I didn't realize how lucky I had it to find a writing job in New York.
Marc:I mean, you even know the job of the writing assistant.
Marc:That's sort of a tough job.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I didn't.
Marc:I didn't.
Marc:To just like sit there and write everything that everybody says down?
Guest:I know.
Guest:I know.
Guest:The room stenographer.
Guest:And also I was older than everybody.
Guest:I was older than everybody.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I was 29.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So there maybe 24, 5, you know?
Guest:But I, you know, I come from having a real job, right?
Guest:Like I knew and I had internships and all that kind of stuff.
Guest:So I knew, but it was also like, it wasn't just stenographer.
Guest:That was also kind of the bare bones.
Guest:I was getting lunches and getting groceries and like kind of PA-ing a bit too for the room.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But that was sort of the entree into that, just knowing that world.
Guest:And then from there, starting to then like in the next season, I was a staff writer on season two.
Marc:So they gave you a script second season?
Guest:No, I was a staff writer.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:And so that was good.
Guest:And then it started, you know, obviously the whole agent.
Guest:And then you start to submit for staff.
Guest:That's when you got an agent?
Guest:Yeah, after season two, I think.
Marc:So you're a writer assistant, Stephen's one, Stephen's two, your staff writer, and then you got hooked up.
Guest:Oh, yeah, and then somebody come knocking.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know, you're working and you come knocking, Mark.
Marc:And how many seasons you work on the show?
Marc:All of them?
Guest:Three.
Marc:So where did that lead to, writing-wise, for you?
Guest:Yeah, writing-wise for me, it then led to, I...
Guest:Worked on Difficult People for just that first season for a couple of weeks.
Guest:Just more like what they might call like a consulting.
Guest:You know, like you kind of come in.
Guest:What show is that?
Guest:Who is that?
Guest:Julie Klausner, Billy Eichner on Hulu.
Guest:Yeah, that's a fun one.
Guest:But that was just a couple of weeks.
Guest:You know, it was more, again, like giving jokes and ideas and stuff for that.
Guest:And then...
Guest:I moved to LA and then there was a long time I wasn't and I was temping for a little while.
Marc:Are you doing stand-up all through it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had to learn that though.
Guest:What was interesting as a writer's assistant is I wasn't speaking all day.
Guest:I'm just taking notes.
Guest:And then I would get up and do a show and I was so clunky because I was like, this is the first time I'm communicating with people really like substantially.
Guest:And so I was like, oh, this is weird.
Guest:And it's always been, you know, I love performing.
Guest:I love stand up more than writing.
Guest:And it's always for me about that dance of trying to, again, it seemed writing is what kind of pays my bills.
Guest:You know, but stand up is like for the soul.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I'm also very particular about what I write on because I don't want to work until 10, 11 p.m.
Guest:I want to be able to do spots.
Guest:I want to have a little bit of freedom in my brain.
Marc:Have you had one of those jobs where you can't leave?
Marc:A network TV job?
Guest:Yeah, we've done some late nights.
Guest:I've done some late nights.
Marc:For which show?
Guest:uh great news that's what moved me out here in 2017 season two of that nbc yeah um andrew martin yep how many seasons did that go it was two so you were on the second one yeah so that's like real network i know i was like this is the real deal i'm in hollywood baby i'm on the lot was it how many was it a huge staff
Guest:Oh, I felt like maybe 12 of us.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Yeah, like a decent number, certainly.
Guest:But just like, yeah, learning that, like, oh, this is how they do it here.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know?
Marc:There were some late nights on that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And just learning how to kind of balance it all.
Guest:So then, you know, so I kind of try to, like, do a room or work on something and then take some months off and try to get into my stand-up again, you know, if I can.
Marc:Well, the stand-up that I, like, what'd you do?
Marc:You did two recorded specials?
Guest:I did a half hour for Comedy Central in 2016 and a half hour for Netflix that dropped this past December.
Marc:Well, I saw that one.
Guest:Thanks, Mark.
Marc:Yeah, so the other one, how do you feel about the one you did in 2016, comparatively speaking?
Marc:Do you look at it and be like, I wasn't ready or anything?
Guest:No, there's a difference.
Guest:Okay, because the Netflix half hour, I got two months notice to put that together after not performing for 15 months because of a pandemic.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Whereas that 2016 half hour was kind of the culmination.
Guest:You're working it.
Guest:You not had that worked.
Guest:So I still think I'm like, okay, that was strong.
Guest:That was it.
Guest:This one I think is a little more crafted.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, the new one.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It feels like a little just more like...
Marc:Well, you stuck with the one thing for the whole time.
Marc:Like, you kind of stayed in one story-ish.
Guest:I tried, right?
Guest:To keep up someone's journey.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's what I really, like, when I'm putting it together, I'm always like, well, what does this add up to?
Guest:I don't want just, like, disjointed jokes where, like, you know, you use the laugh to transition.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because heaven help you if they don't laugh.
Guest:Right.
Guest:How do you get there?
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I really wanted it to feel better.
Guest:I felt like that was good.
Guest:The thing, too, with Comedy Central, you know, those goddamn commercials, Mark.
Marc:I know.
Guest:Ruining everything.
Guest:They cut in the middle of a
Guest:bit.
Marc:It's hard.
Guest:They're taking out the tags, Mark.
Marc:You can't do it.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I mean, I remember there was one special we shot.
Marc:I can't remember who it was for.
Marc:It was a fucking nightmare, though, because they actually laid it out.
Marc:It was the only time this happened, and it was the worst, where they're like, here are the times of each segment.
Marc:So you got the pre-thing for a minute and a half, and then you got six, and then you got six, and then you got four, whatever the hell it is.
Marc:And you're trying to build an act around that?
Marc:I know.
Marc:It's a disaster.
Guest:I had no idea.
Guest:Also, I knew there'd be commercials.
Guest:I just didn't know they were going to be cutting like that, right?
Guest:I thought if anything, they would maybe lift out a whole bit, right?
Guest:And then they could just put the joke in there.
Guest:But it was like, no, it was like in the middle and then they come back from the commercial and it picks up where I left off.
Guest:And I said, what is this flow?
Guest:The flow was so important to me, Bart.
Guest:And I was very upset.
Marc:I think it was, I did two of those fucking things for Comedy Central, those half hours.
Marc:Premium blends.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And that was what it was.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That where you have to think about that.
Marc:So they fucked you on that.
Guest:Yeah, that was tough.
Guest:That was tough.
Guest:I didn't know, of course, until it was up, but I was like, oh, that's what I also, again, the Netflix, I said, okay, because I know it's not gonna be cut.
Marc:Yeah, you can just stay with it.
Guest:I can stay with it and I can be really specific about how we get from one to the other because I know it's going to matter.
Marc:Yeah, and the theme was being in one of those novels.
Guest:You think the theme was Nancy Meyers vibes?
Guest:Yeah, I think, you know, it's funny.
Marc:That kept coming back.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:The idea of being a Jan, what is fabulosity?
Guest:Can I live up to it?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:No, I can't.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But we always aspire, right?
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:And then also, what does that look like trying to do that when you are like a black lady?
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:You know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When you're sad.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When you're sad all the time, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:You did talk about depression a bit, right?
Guest:Yeah, honey.
Guest:You got to live in your depressed mode.
Guest:I mean, that's also the thing, though, when I think about...
Guest:Clubs and stuff.
Guest:And again, because I'm not there, it could have changed.
Guest:So please tell me.
Guest:I always felt like I wasn't the right.
Guest:I wasn't the black woman they wanted for the clubs in that you want the confident, brash lady.
Guest:And I'm literally like, I sit in the shower and I'm not doing well.
Marc:But it's funny, though, because you have that that's that you have that brash lady in you and you use it deliberately at different points during your set.
Marc:You just don't live in that.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Marc:But you have one.
Guest:I visit her.
Guest:We visit her.
Guest:We visit her.
Guest:Just to check in, see if she's holding up.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I think that with clubs, I think what you're saying is true, that if people are coming to see you, then they'll know what to expect.
Marc:But just to do the job, I'm sure you could.
Marc:I'm sure you're psyching yourself up to a certain degree.
Guest:No, I know.
Marc:But it is hard to get through that first five minutes.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Because you could really sink your own boat.
Marc:Right?
Marc:I know.
Marc:You try, you try, you try, and then some part of you leave.
Guest:Oh my God, yes.
Guest:Isn't it wild how you can disassociate while fully talking to a room of people?
Marc:Yeah, it's been a while, but yeah.
Guest:Because I can literally be like, I'm not here, but you know some jokes.
Guest:I'll always know.
Guest:Andy, my husband, he'll know when I've jumped ship, when I start doing old material, right?
Guest:Like if he hears a joke from 2018, he goes, he's like, you left, didn't you?
Guest:And I'm like, uh-huh.
Marc:My brain just went on autopilot and said, what's the joke I know?
Marc:Well, yeah, because the alternative is get angry, which I used to take as well.
Marc:Yeah, I'll do that.
Marc:I used to do that.
Marc:But no, I know that feeling where you're like, but I can't do it anymore.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I'd rather give them some sort of horrendous experience.
Guest:Something to talk about.
Marc:Yeah, then let me just fail.
Guest:Right.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And pretend like it's not happening.
Marc:I've never been able to do that.
Marc:Just don't acknowledge your bombing.
Marc:Just finish the job.
Marc:I'm like, no.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:No, they have to pay.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:I've been telling them lately.
Guest:I go, there's something here.
Guest:Don't you worry.
Guest:I go, okay, there's something here.
Guest:You don't know yet.
Guest:But you can say you were here when.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:I do some version of that.
Marc:Where you get the premise out and it gets enough of a laugh to be like, all right, well, that's going to turn into something.
Marc:Not tonight.
Guest:Not tonight.
Marc:Come back in six months.
Marc:So what are you doing now?
Marc:You've got a podcast or a show?
Guest:So I host a podcast, Couples Therapy.
Guest:What is that?
Guest:You want to come do it?
Guest:We talk about relationships for a little bit, and then we answer listeners' relationship questions.
Guest:Initially started as a live show where we would have comics do sets together.
Guest:So friends, couples, exes, siblings.
Guest:We used to do it in New York at Hi-Fi Bar, which was on the Lower East Side.
Guest:I remember that place.
Guest:And then moved it to the Virgil when we moved here.
Guest:Who's guys are with you?
Guest:The husband, Andy.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Andy Beckerman, y'all.
Marc:He's a writer?
Marc:Yes, he is.
Marc:Yeah, I even know that name.
Marc:Do I know him?
Guest:Probably.
Guest:I think you did his podcast.
Marc:I did?
Guest:Yeah, a long time ago.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:Because he's been doing his since 2010.
Guest:So y'all were in the trenches together.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:Dark Souls was a long time.
Guest:Beginnings.
Guest:And it was like early creatives.
Guest:Probably.
Guest:I just feel like you've been...
Marc:In the same circle somewhat?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:All right, so you do a couples podcast.
Guest:I do couples therapy, and then I love a Lifetime movie podcast, which is a Lifetime movie podcast.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Recap with A&E.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You do it, okay?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You do what you do to make your money.
Marc:You mean, oh, it's actually an A&E podcast.
Marc:Okay.
Yeah.
Marc:That started in the pandemic.
Marc:Can you be hard on that?
Marc:Not so much.
Guest:It's a real tricky dance, baby.
Guest:Yeah, it's a real tricky dance.
Guest:It's you know, I think we can certainly I hosted with the comedian Megan Gailey, who's very funny.
Guest:And I think we can do it.
Guest:And, you know, Lord knows they'll cut it if it gets to.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, you know, I think what it is is you can definitely make fun of.
Guest:the genre and the aspects of it, right?
Guest:But certainly don't be like, who wrote this dreck?
Guest:You know, like you can't do that.
Marc:Do you feel like, are you going to go back to New York?
Guest:I want to.
Guest:I love it more.
Guest:I don't, I just, I don't drive Marc Maron.
Marc:You don't?
Marc:No.
Marc:How'd you get here?
Guest:I took a lift.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Guest:That's why my hair's a mess.
Guest:He refused to turn on the air conditioner.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:And the wind just took it away.
Guest:Oh, sorry.
Guest:It's all right.
Marc:We do what we have to do.
Marc:No driving.
Guest:I have a license.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:I am afraid.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:I am afraid.
Guest:People are lawless here, okay?
Guest:Mark, what's with the turning left on yellow and then red and then you turn right on red?
Guest:When does the car stop, Mark?
Marc:I know.
Guest:When do you stop?
Marc:I know.
Guest:Mark.
Guest:You just have to get used to it.
Guest:Mark.
Guest:Mark, okay, I understand that, but it's almost like, you know, for instance, getting fit.
Marc:You gotta drive offensively.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:But that's how you have an accident.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:You're overthinking it.
Marc:How long have you been driving?
Marc:How long did you give it a try for?
Guest:Nah, nah, nah.
Marc:So you went and you took your lessons and you got your license.
Guest:Oh, and I drove for maybe like a couple years, because I got the license right before I was going with the National Theater of the Deaf, because we were driving on our tour.
Guest:So I drove for the tour.
Guest:Then went back to New York, didn't do anything.
Guest:And then when I got here,
Guest:I didn't drive for a little bit.
Guest:Then I took driving lessons.
Guest:I did 10 hours.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:With Carlos.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Who was very patient.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But then the moment Carlos was gone, I just couldn't do it.
Guest:Got spooked.
Guest:Also, you know, Carlos had us in a ratty like 1995 Honda Accord.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, once I'm in the thing I'm leasing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm afraid to scratch it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I said, forget it.
Guest:I also don't have great depth perception.
Guest:I'll tell you that right now.
Guest:When it comes to turning into a space, I'm scraping, scraping, scraping.
Marc:Really?
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well, maybe you're just not meant to drive.
Guest:Well, then how am I meant to thrive?
Marc:In LA, I don't know.
Guest:I know.
Guest:See?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:See?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Could you go back to New York?
Marc:I mean, what are you doing out here right now?
Guest:It feels like this is where, I mean, I know, right?
Guest:Technically, it's not like I have to go into work anywhere every day here.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But I'm just like starting to get settled.
Guest:You know, I got the dog, I got the two cats.
Marc:I know, I know, I know.
Marc:And I don't know what's going on in New York, but all I know is it's getting dry here.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And it's getting hot.
Guest:It's humid here.
Guest:You know, they used to say it's a dry heat, but now it's a humid heat.
Marc:It's a little humid some days.
Guest:It's a humid heat.
Guest:It's really coming, it's coming through.
Marc:So what, you're not working on anything now?
Guest:So I just finished shooting season three of Mythic Quest on Apple TV, which is a show about a video.
Guest:It's a workplace comedy about a video game company.
Guest:And I play the put upon HR lady using the rage that I enjoy so much.
Guest:So we finished shooting that and the new season will start in the fall.
Guest:I'm honey recording couples therapy podcast, lifetime podcast, writing some scripts.
Guest:I'm gonna be in a little motion picture that drops on Netflix in August.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I'm trying, honey.
Marc:What movie?
Guest:It's called Me Time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it stars Mark Wahlberg, Kevin Hart, and Regina Hall.
Guest:And I play a parent.
Guest:And I, at one point, used the phrase, I'll be fucking.
Guest:Which, you know, is not, you know, that's fun.
Guest:That's fun.
Marc:What kind of name is Ikparogen?
Guest:Nigerian.
Marc:It's a very memorable name.
Marc:I can't get it out of my head.
Guest:Oh, good.
Marc:You don't see EKP much.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I know.
Guest:That's all I do when you sign in for something.
Guest:I'm like, what's your name?
Guest:I go, EKP.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's all you need.
Guest:That's all you need.
Guest:Do we have to get into everything?
Marc:And how does your mom feel about your career now?
Guest:Well, now that she knows I'm working enough money, she's doing great.
Guest:She's okay?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:She's still working?
Guest:Yep, she's still working.
Guest:And it was, you know what it is, it's her, you know, of course, as I do things that she can see, there's tangibility in that, but I think it's even more so just feeling, she's like, you got money, you good?
Guest:Because I think, of course, like- Got insurance.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And so I think she feels comfortable now knowing, okay, you can pay your bills and you can do what you need to do.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:What about your old man?
Marc:Does he know?
Guest:Oh, he knows.
Guest:Well, this is the problem with that damn McPeregan name, Mark.
Guest:This is what I'm dealing with.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:If your last name's McPeregan, we're related.
Guest:You know what I'm saying?
Marc:That you're hearing from everybody?
Guest:Or they suddenly hearing me, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And that's what's so interesting and tough is like, okay, as I become more front-facing, so to speak, I start to bring in people or I have to be mindful or how do I tell the story of my upbringing without...
Guest:offending someone else.
Guest:But that's kind of like, I don't know if I can control that.
Guest:And so it's just interesting because people are paying attention in a way now.
Guest:You know, like my grandma in Nigeria, she texted me once.
Guest:She goes, say hello to Jew boy, which means she heard Jubu, which is what I call Andy in my act.
Guest:She must have heard that somewhere.
Guest:And you know, she's like 92.
Guest:So it's fine.
Guest:Jew boy, Jubu, I get it.
Guest:Yeah, but it's like, oh, she's hearing my comedy somewhere.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:You know?
Guest:You hope.
Yeah.
Guest:I need those international downloads.
Guest:I need those international downloads.
Marc:Well, no, I mean, it's just like if she just came up with Jubilee on her own.
Marc:But no, it's an interesting dilemma to, you know, who has the right to what story about who.
Marc:Because I've dealt with that, you know, with my family too, with my dad, especially in a book I wrote where I was kind of,
Marc:honest but it is my point of view and when you are forward facing or whatever you're saying or public personality they don't have any recourse like they can't go wait I'd like to present my side so yeah it becomes tricky but I'm of the belief though that it is your story and that if you think you're coming from a place that isn't spiteful then you can own that
Guest:Well, that's what I'm trying, because that's what I'm kind of working on new material-wise.
Guest:I feel like I'm getting comfortable enough to kind of delve into family things, but also for that very reason of, you know.
Guest:And I think it's more so to my mom, because I think she is a little more not just private, because I think there is that little kind of like, you know, I think that's like a black, a cultural thing of like, that's personal, that's family.
Guest:Don't be telling people business.
Marc:Unless you do it in a way that you sort of half generalize it.
Marc:right do you know like it seems to me that there are storytellers even black storytellers that do it but either it's a little broad or they kind of you know kind of like we all know what this is when you you know what i mean yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i'm trying to work on yeah but it seems like if like the but when you are somebody who is really wants to be yourself the specifics become important
Guest:i was just gonna say i'm like half general but the specifics are where it is i know i know and so that's that's the tricky part so i am trying to figure out how do i say it and i think for the most part because it's funny because my mom used to say this to me a lot like for instance if something was happening like we're fighting or doing whatever in the middle of a fight she goes and don't you put this in your comedy sure yeah should i always do that and my response when people say things like that is like wouldn't don't be bad because i'm you don't talk about the day everything went well right on stage you talk about the day sure something fucked up happened yeah
Guest:Well, that ain't no me.
Marc:Yeah, that's what your special should be called.
Marc:Don't be putting that in your comedy.
Marc:I just throw them all under the bus.
Marc:And then when it's going to be recorded or something, then I think it through.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then I usually do it anyway.
Guest:Well, but see, this is the difference now, right?
Guest:Especially, first of all, you've been doing your podcast for over a decade.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This is another way things get, like this is recorded.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And now we tell a business.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it's a conversation.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it's like, I was like, this is a conversation that a lot of people will hear.
Guest:And perhaps even people who know my family will, right?
Guest:Like, you've got the reach, Mark.
Marc:You've got the reach.
Marc:Well, yeah, you'll be surprised.
Guest:And so it'll be, you know, so it's like interesting.
Guest:So that's why I'm like, even as I say things, I'm like, okay, what's real?
Guest:What's not?
Guest:Okay, did I drag anybody?
Guest:Did I drag them in a way that wasn't appropriate?
Guest:You know, exactly.
Guest:But it's like, that's what you have to think of even before, right?
Guest:Not even doing a set.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And I wonder though, if you having done this for so long, also in a way kind of give you that strength and
Guest:kind of the callous.
Marc:Well, I don't talk about, I'm sort of careful to talk about relationships because they all end, some not well.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And then all of a sudden you just stop talking about it because they can't defend themselves or they can't have a place.
Marc:But I think with family, that shit is dug in, it's done.
Marc:And like even, you know, talking, you know, in a surface way about problems, you know, it's got to be okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because it's sort of what defines us.
Marc:What are we just supposed to talk about that in therapy?
Marc:Right.
Marc:It is our story.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And, you know, on some level, somebody fucked up.
Right.
Guest:Ain't that the truth.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So like, you know, it's sort of like, you know, I got to be honest about this.
Marc:I'm not trying to hurt anybody.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:You could have done a little better.
Guest:Well, for me, it always feels like it's got to be funny as fuck.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Meaning if because if I'm going to say something that's going to risk me getting an earful or an attitude from or not talking to somebody.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It better be the funniest version of this in the world.
Marc:Yeah, you better be able to live with it and defend it.
Guest:So it can't just be like a, you know what happened?
Guest:It better say something.
Guest:It better do something.
Marc:That's true.
Marc:I think that's a good policy.
Guest:Okay, great.
Guest:Make it the funniest fucking thing you've ever heard.
Marc:And then if it hurts feelings, like, I don't know what to tell you.
Guest:It's a good one.
Guest:It's good.
Guest:It's real good.
Guest:Sorry.
Guest:They like it.
Guest:It's not about you anymore.
Marc:It's actually bigger than you.
Marc:Yeah, and it's helping people.
Marc:Try that one.
Marc:It's helping people.
Marc:people feel less alone because I threw you under the bus try that one it's good talking to you good talking to you Mark
Marc:Okay, that was Naomi Perogen.
Marc:Her podcast, Couples Therapy.
Marc:Check it out.
Marc:Also check her out on the stand-ups on Netflix or Mythic Quest on Apple TV+.
Marc:Good talking to her.
Marc:It was a good conversation.
Marc:And if you could, hang out for a second.
Marc:Okay, listen, on Thursday's show, I'll talk to Orny Adams.
Marc:Yes, this happened.
Marc:I didn't think it would ever happen.
Marc:I'm not sure I wanted it to happen previously.
Marc:Orny Adams is really, quite frankly, a guy who has kind of rubbed me the wrong way and annoyed me for years.
Marc:And, you know, and I honestly, I'm not the only one.
Marc:But I started to realize, like, work this out.
Marc:The guy's a real comic.
Marc:The guy does the job.
Marc:What is it?
Marc:Why?
Marc:It's there's a couple.
Marc:There's only a few people in the world right now that kind of like annoy me.
Marc:And I've not been easy on this guy.
Marc:And it's always been weird and tense.
Marc:So I said, fuck it, man.
Marc:It's time.
Marc:and um i talked to him and it's really it was like it was one of those episodes loaded with a certain tension but we knew it was there it was interesting i i don't even i i think it i think i was definitely emotionally ready to do this and he was i think pretty excited to do it uh well here i think we have a little bit here i'll play it for you
Guest:Here's the truth.
Guest:I'm shocked I'm here right now.
Guest:Can you explain to me what I'm doing on your podcast?
Marc:I just wanted to connect.
Marc:I've been hard on you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I knew that no matter how fucking hard I've been on you, for no real reason other than you annoy me, that given the opportunity, you would come over here in a second.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I did have a conversation with my agent.
Guest:I'm like, is this a setup?
Yeah.
Guest:They go, we don't think he does that to people, otherwise you wouldn't get guests.
Guest:But I also feel like there comes a point in your life, like I feel like as you mature, we're not as competitive as we once were.
Guest:That's probably true.
Guest:You're more welcoming and we're probably more similar than dissimilar.
Guest:So when you looked at Arnie Adams in a hat, you said...
Guest:God damn it.
Marc:That's me.
Marc:That's my.
Marc:Well, no, I think that's true.
Marc:And that's why I just texted my, you know, when I was talking to my producer like that usually is why.
Marc:I mean, I understand we probably grew up similarly.
Marc:You know, we were probably sort of there's some sort of scramble to kind of put ourselves together in a way.
Marc:Something's missing.
Marc:Mm hmm.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And and and I think I identified your quest for selfhood, you know, through whatever means you had, whether it be hats or, you know, acting like other people or whatever as something I understood.
Guest:I mean, I think I was going through a sort of a dark period.
Guest:And so that's where that whole sort of when when was the dark?
Guest:This was after comedian.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Marc:So that's me and Orny.
Marc:That'll be on Thursday.
Marc:This Friday and Saturday, I'll be at Wise Guys in Las Vegas.
Marc:That's July 15th and 16th.
Marc:Then I'm back at Dynasty Typewriter for two shows, Saturday and Sunday, July 23rd and 24th.
Marc:And then I'll be at Just for Laughs in Montreal for my gala on Saturday, July 30th.
Marc:I'll also be doing solo shows up there on July 28th and 29th.
Marc:I think my gala, Big Jay Oakerson and Rosebud Baker,
Marc:the sklar brothers there's other people i'll tell you as we get closer but they released the list of the who's going to be on there and i'm also doing two solo shows that i mentioned that on july 28th and 29th and i'll announce that again as we get closer i don't think there's been a public announcement of it yet then in august and september i'll be in columbus ohio indianapolis indiana louisville kentucky lincoln nebraska des moines iowa iowa city iowa
Marc:Tucson, Arizona, Phoenix, Arizona, Boulder, Colorado, and Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Marc:Then in October, I'm in London, England, and Dublin, Ireland.
Marc:Also, this weekend at Wise Guys in Las Vegas, I'm bringing Pavitsky with me.
Marc:I'm bringing Esther.
Marc:You can go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all the dates and ticket info for all of my shows.
Marc:Also, remind me to tell you about my trip to the Chinese doctor.
Marc:Remind me, okay?
Marc:And I'll send you emails to wtfpod at gmail.com.
Marc:If you've got questions, we're going to reopen some sort of mailbag situation.
Marc:All right?
Marc:All right, here's some guitar.
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey LaFonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.