Episode 1342 - Dana Gould
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:Alright, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck, Nicks?
Marc:What the fuck, Sonics?
Marc:What the fuck, Tuplets?
Marc:It doesn't matter.
Marc:How's it going?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast.
Marc:Welcome to it.
Marc:Are you okay?
Marc:I'm okay.
Marc:I'm excited today because, well, it's yesterday, but you're listening to it today, but it rained yesterday.
Marc:in Los Angeles in the middle of the night.
Marc:And once I realized the city wasn't being bombed or it wasn't an earthquake, it was just thunder and just astounding thunder and weird lightning.
Marc:And then just a downpour.
Marc:And any time water pours from the sky onto the Southern California ground, I'm fucking ecstatic because it just feels like everything is kindling, waiting to be ignited.
Marc:When I just looked outside, when I looked outside at first, it was just lightning.
Marc:And I'm like, oh, this is it.
Marc:Everything's going to catch on fire.
Marc:The whole goddamn thing is going to go up.
Marc:And then the water just came down.
Marc:Oh, it took everything I had not to go outside and dance around in the rain.
Marc:Well, the primary obstacle was not being struck by lightning naked in my yard and wet, but so exciting.
Marc:And the ground just sucks it up, just absorbs it like an old sponge that hasn't had water in it for a year or at least for a decade.
Marc:Just an old dry sponge.
Marc:And my friend Dan and I, Dan from Gimme Gimme, we had a hike planned at 730 and was still kind of raining.
Marc:We're like, fuck it.
Marc:Let's go.
Marc:Get up on that mountain.
Marc:It's all wet.
Marc:And all the green stuff that's kind of hung in there is all green, real green.
Marc:And even the wet kindling.
Marc:That's what it all smelled like.
Marc:That's what L.A.
Marc:smells like after it rains.
Marc:Dusty wet kindling.
Marc:Because that's what it is.
Marc:But I was thrilled.
Marc:I was thrilled that it fucking rained.
Marc:Oh, God, I can't even tell you.
Marc:Today on the show, Dana Gould is here.
Marc:You know, he was like on during the first year of the podcast.
Marc:And then he's been back for a couple of short ones over the years.
Marc:But, you know, I just saw him recently up in Vancouver and we sat down and we talked over breakfast.
Marc:It was me and him, James Adomian.
Marc:It was just like old timers now, just, you know, contemporaries.
Marc:And we just had a good time.
Marc:Got some laughs telling old Boston stories.
Marc:And I just thought, like, why not?
Marc:Let's have him on.
Marc:He's also someone who thinks about comedy a lot, and he's a good person to talk to about the evolution of comedy, which is sort of a topic going on with me right now.
Marc:So I had old Dana back.
Marc:I had him back.
Marc:Look, I'll be in Las Vegas.
Marc:You hear me?
Marc:Las Vegas, Nevada, on Friday and Saturday, July 15th and 16th at Wise Guys.
Marc:In Los Angeles, I'll be at Dynasty Typewriter for two shows, Saturday and Sunday, July 23rd and 24th.
Marc:I'll be at Just for Laughs in Montreal for my gala on Saturday, July 30th.
Marc:I'll also be doing solo shows up there on July 28th and 29th.
Marc:More to come on those.
Marc:Then I've got tour dates coming up in August and September in Columbus, Ohio, Indianapolis, Indiana, Louisville, Kentucky, Lincoln, Nebraska, Des Moines, Iowa, Iowa City, Iowa.
Marc:tucson arizona phoenix arizona boulder colorado toronto ontario correct you can go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all uh all dates and ticket info the last time i talked to you was before my charleston show which went great it was kind of a crazy show right am i right to think i didn't talk to you because i recorded on sunday
Marc:For Monday, right?
Marc:Yeah, before the Charleston show, which was Sunday night, which was Father's Day.
Marc:And it was a very crazy show.
Marc:Some guy brought his 13 year old kid to the show and I could see almost everybody in the room and that can go either way.
Marc:But I told him right out of the gate that it was not very responsible parenting and that I'm not going to like pull any punches.
Marc:And then I made fun of his father relentlessly, which I think he enjoyed.
Marc:The father was a real fan of mine, but still a little bit irresponsible.
Marc:And then at some point he left during the show and I was like, does do you need someone to take you home?
Marc:Are you okay?
Marc:Is this situation okay for you?
Marc:I think your father's probably out front crying on the phone to your mother.
Marc:How did that end?
Marc:That kind of stuff.
Marc:Is there anyone here from Child Protective Services?
Marc:It's always a good time.
Marc:A lot of fun riffing with the child in the room.
Marc:But it's a difficult balance because if you draw too much attention to the kid, people are going to be self-conscious about laughing at some of this stuff.
Marc:And
Marc:I found out after the show, there was a guy sitting up front, older guy, not older, a little older than me, and a woman who seemed to be sort of shocked by a lot of what I was saying, though laughing, and he seemed to be a real fan.
Marc:And I took a picture with that guy after.
Marc:But then it turns out, and I said to the woman he's with, I said, you didn't seem to really, were you having a good time?
Marc:She's like, you don't even know.
Marc:And it turns out it was Nancy Mace, the Republican congresswoman from down there in Charleston, who I guess was in some hot water with the MAGA crew for not towing the line.
Marc:But I'm glad I didn't know because I probably, you know, maybe it would have been better if I knew, but people can handle it.
Marc:She got some laughs.
Marc:But that show was great.
Marc:And I ate two dinners.
Marc:I had dinner before the show at Salmon.
Marc:And then after the show, I went and bought a steak.
Marc:Me and some friends had a massive steak.
Marc:Two dinners in Charleston.
Marc:That's memorable, right?
Marc:Two dinners.
Marc:So look, you guys, I should tell you that in a couple of weeks, we're going to be making our move to a cast.
Marc:And what does that mean to you?
Marc:Well, I'll tell you.
Marc:If you listen to this show on any free podcast platforms, it means you'll still get the show exactly the way you've always gotten it.
Marc:But there will be hundreds of additional episodes for you to listen to.
Marc:We're opening up our archives going all the way back to 2014.
Marc:All of those episodes will be available for free.
Marc:For episodes one to 500, those along with all other ad-free episodes are going to be available on Acast Plus.
Marc:You can buy a subscription to Acast Plus starting Tuesday, July 5th.
Marc:And once you've signed up, you'll be able to listen to all the content on whatever podcast app you currently use.
Marc:You don't need a specific app for it.
Marc:Also, Acast Plus will have weekly bonus content.
Marc:I'll be doing stuff for you that you can't get on the regular podcast feed.
Marc:If you're a Stitcher Premium subscriber, our last day on Stitcher Premium is June 30th.
Marc:So check when your subscription is up and act accordingly.
Marc:We'll have more details next week and a preview of some of our bonus material.
Marc:Yeah, I don't even know what that's going to be.
Marc:So that makes it real exciting.
Marc:Look, if anyone's in the L.A.
Marc:area and they're looking for a doggy, go to my Instagram feed.
Marc:That's at Mark Maron at Mark Maron.
Marc:My friend Kit works over there, Pasadena Humane.
Marc:And there's a doggy named Mimi over there that we'd like to get her adopted this Saturday because there's free adoptions this Saturday over at Pasadena Humane.
Marc:I think between 10 and 2.
Marc:Check it out.
Marc:Go to my Instagram.
Marc:See the doggy.
Marc:It's a part pit bull doggy.
Marc:Really great looking doggy.
Marc:Someone wants a doggy.
Marc:Look.
Marc:What is truth?
Marc:Right?
Marc:I keep thinking like I've been working on these new ideas around people who like I didn't think I'd live in a culture or in a world where you kind of pick your truth like you pick a radio station.
Marc:You know, I kind of like country truth.
Marc:I'm more of a hip hop truth guy.
Marc:I'm a classic rock truth person.
Marc:But no, I just this idea that obviously that's not what truth is.
Marc:And, you know, you just prefer what makes you comfortable and what satisfies whatever your particular perception or context of understanding of whatever you think reality is.
Marc:And you kind of.
Marc:You know, lock that in that template onto your dumb, mushy brain.
Marc:And then you act from that place online in the untrue world of of cowardice and attack or concern or whatever it is.
Marc:But I just started to think about the idea of what truth really is and where we're really at.
Marc:And it's I just had an encounter with.
Marc:a comedian last night, you know, who's a big comic.
Marc:And he said, we think differently.
Marc:And he said something interesting.
Marc:He said, like, yeah, I can't live in that place that you're talking about.
Marc:And I can't think and live in a place where there are no solutions.
Marc:And I realized that's sort of why people...
Marc:put caps on you know what their sense of reality is why they have to have answers whether they're belligerent or or or embracing that there's this need for control there's this tremendous fear of the unknown that fuels you know most of the tribalism and most of the speculative bullshit that is kind of destroying our culture from the inside it's all around fear of some kind fear of the unknown and
Marc:And one's inability to live with it or accept the fact that things are dire or disastrous and there might be no getting out of it.
Marc:So why not instead go like, fuck that guy, fuck them, fuck you.
Marc:You're the other team, fuck this.
Marc:There's no growth or proactive movement in that shit, but it really stemming from quote unquote truth.
Marc:What is that really to you?
Marc:What is your truth and what information are you taking in to sort of create a value system for yourself?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I just had this weird train of thought with it.
Marc:I'm very happy Dana Gould is here.
Marc:It's going to find its way into the act.
Marc:Dana has a web series called Hanging with Dr. Z. You can watch it at hangingwithdrz.com or check it out on YouTube.
Marc:We talk very little about any of his work.
Marc:We talk like comics talk.
Marc:That's what comics do.
Marc:So this is me talking to Dana Gould.
Marc:It was fun when we hadn't seen you in a while.
Marc:We were in Vancouver because when I sat down with you and we started talking, I realized like, oh, we're the old guys.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But, you know, we're having that conversation.
Marc:Do you remember?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And it was real.
Marc:I mean, there really is that much time now.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:30 years, 40 years.
Guest:40.
Guest:I started doing stand-up comedy July, June 17th, 1982.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Two weeks out of high school.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:At the Deng.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Ho.
Guest:And yeah, 40 years.
Marc:It's crazy.
Marc:And it was fun to think about them and to have those moments like, oh, what happened?
Marc:Yeah, is that guy still around?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you just get it from, like you do at a certain point, you just get a reward for not dying.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:And how many people in the world have, you know, in terms of at any given time said, you know, Cy Bell's dead.
Guest:Oh, you know, he's, yeah.
Guest:Or like, and I listened to my dad, like, he's got the big C. Your dad's a big C?
Guest:No, he would say like, if somebody got a cat, how do you die?
Guest:The big C. Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Or diabetes, he's got sugar.
Guest:Yeah, oh, sugar?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's what they say.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This is right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Your dad's not around, is he?
Guest:No, here's the thing.
Guest:No, my dad is around.
Guest:He's 91 and he still drives himself.
Guest:My mom is, as my dad would say, has one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel.
Guest:My mother is in a bed from which she will not get up.
Guest:She's 88.
Guest:She's had dementia for several years.
Marc:How did it go?
Marc:My dad just started, and we're all pretty excited.
Marc:Let me tell you, Christmas is a breeze.
Marc:Everything's sort of a breeze.
Guest:Hope you like the diamond necklace.
Guest:The what?
Guest:Um, and it's very, you know, it's been so long, you know, I've since it really, uh, head on, I've only had one conversation with her where she knew who I was.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, and it was very, very strange and Kat, my, my fiance witnessed it and I'm really glad she did cause I would have eventually believed that it didn't happen.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So in a way, you're being slow walked to the funeral.
Guest:And I don't mean to be morbid.
Guest:It's okay.
Guest:My brother, okay, I'll give you an example of the attitude in my family.
Marc:It's so funny.
Marc:I don't think that a younger you would have said that.
Guest:No.
Guest:I don't mean to be morbid.
Guest:I do mean.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But here's an hour.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And at the end of it, I'll breathe once.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:My brother, you know, so she's had, she broke her hip, she's stopped eating, you know, and she's only awake for a little bit during the day, so no one is buying her any green bananas.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And my brother, I see my phone rings two days ago, and I see it's my brother, and I go like, okay, here it is.
Guest:It's time, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and I pick up the phone, and he literally goes, Ma's not dead, got a minute?
Guest:And I go, yeah, what's it?
Guest:And then he tells me what he needed to tell me, and he goes, oh, yeah, I should have told you before.
Guest:Dad died.
Guest:Okay, I got to go.
Guest:And it's so funny because my brother, when it all... It's so funny because with my brother...
Guest:It's all, there's nothing under the surface.
Guest:It's all right there.
Guest:And I go like, you know, I go, so what's going on?
Guest:And he literally said, not trying to be funny, you know, mom and I were never close.
Guest:And that's his way of going, I'm not going to feel anything.
Marc:I'm not going to feel it.
Marc:I'm not going to cry.
Marc:What do you think you're going to feel like?
Marc:I talk to people because like I told my mother, they're not together about the dementia.
Marc:She goes, well, he was never really round.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's just like official.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I don't know.
Marc:I don't know what to expect.
Marc:But the thing is, his spouse, there's all this shit you don't hear about.
Marc:I mean, I don't know at the beginning that your mother like my dad like focus.
Marc:And he'll put on a show.
Marc:But he's at the stage of dementia where she basically tells him what to say in any conversation.
Marc:Like, did you go to the movies?
Marc:Yeah, wait, Rosie, what was the movie?
Marc:Yeah, we saw that one.
Marc:What was that about?
Marc:Yeah, so he's- Yeah.
Marc:He's at the ventriculism stage.
Guest:Yeah, it was like the Bob Hope special I did in 94.
Guest:Nice to see.
Guest:He had an earpiece.
Guest:His daughter was giving him his lines through his earpiece.
Guest:How are you?
Guest:How are you?
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:The way you talk about that particular event, it seems like one of the more traumatic events of your life.
Marc:It's something you go back to for decades.
Guest:He did.
Guest:It was like performing with a cast member of the Dark Crystal.
Marc:Just the grotesquerie of it.
Guest:And he had those, God bless him, he had those sad, sick monkey eyes.
Guest:Where you could see the red?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, like you could see more red than I. It was really, it was just like, time, Bob, time to stop.
Guest:And that's why Johnny Carson retired.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He didn't want to become Bob Hope.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He didn't want to become Bob Hope.
Guest:Is that really why?
Guest:It's what he said.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you can see in those last appearances.
Guest:He must have been relieved that Bob Hope couldn't.
Guest:Carson hated him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because he'd just show up.
Guest:He'd just show up.
Guest:And then towards the end, it's like, how are you, Bob?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Decaf.
Guest:You know, it's like, well, you carry it, Johnny.
Guest:But to the point, and again, it's a very strange time in life when your parents are... I could take them both physically.
Marc:I would just take a pillow, and you might.
Guest:Yeah, or even close combat or grappling.
Guest:Sure, that's great.
Guest:You could probably outrun them and they'd die.
Guest:My father and I, everyone is still afraid of my dad.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:That's how we gauge his health.
Guest:How's that?
Guest:He could still kill you.
Guest:It's very true.
Guest:Very true.
Guest:You think he could?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Just with some sort of cobra mind fuck or physically?
Guest:Yeah, physically.
Guest:He's Gran Torino.
Guest:I watched Gran Torino with my dad, which was like watching King Kong with a gorilla.
Guest:It's just pretty redundant.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, I'm getting married again when I didn't think I would even be in a relationship again.
Guest:And my oldest daughter started college last year and I had to deal with like a kid leaving home.
Guest:So what you realize is like, I thought I was done, but I'm also, part of it is done and part of it is starting all over again.
Guest:It's a very strange feeling.
Marc:I don't have those markers.
Marc:I don't have children as markers.
Marc:You better off.
Marc:The material I do about it is I don't see myself aging because I don't have kids.
Marc:I think if you have kids, you can kind of see yourself dying in them.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:No, that's true.
Marc:Happy birthday.
Marc:I'm dying.
Marc:Dad, you said that out loud.
Marc:Well, that's the other thing.
Marc:When your parents die, it's like, well, I'm next.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Also, the feeling of not having parents.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:But you think a lot.
Marc:I have a lot of time to think without the kids, but you're starting this whole other period of life, and I'm sort of like, what do I do?
Marc:Do I just go away now?
Guest:Oh, no, totally.
Guest:That was my concern.
Guest:No, well, you're in...
Marc:As long as you stay in the world, it's great.
Marc:I know, but there is something... There's part of you that's pulling you out of it.
Marc:You kind of want to be like, do I want to stay in the world?
Guest:Oh, no, completely.
Guest:I would love to live in a utterly encapsulated fantasy world where it's 1966.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's interesting.
Guest:It's just like a great year for pop culture.
Guest:Was it?
Guest:Yeah, you know...
Guest:Yeah, just the music was really good and TV was interesting.
Guest:You know, it was I Dream of Jeannie and Perry Mason.
Guest:Just the stuff that we watched as kids.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:Because we didn't, you know, we grew up watching the old stuff because it was reruns.
Guest:Yeah, it's weird.
Guest:We weren't on one, but I'm 57.
Marc:Yeah, we're the same age.
Marc:It's a weird missing, we're that weird generation where we got all the leftovers.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And all of a sudden then disco and new wave happened.
Guest:Yes, yes, exactly.
Guest:And we didn't really, we were too young to really call the Beatles and the Stones our own.
Marc:Right, even Zeppelin.
Marc:We were too late for fucking Zeppelin.
Marc:Yeah, we were too late for that.
Marc:When we were coming, it was like Toto and Farner and the Nuge.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And then punk rock didn't even make it to me.
Guest:Punk rock didn't make it, yeah, not to me either until I went to college.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, it's a weird generation.
Marc:And then like if you grew up where?
Marc:The middle of Massachusetts, Hopedale, Massachusetts.
Marc:Well, yeah, you had those TV stations that ran the Stooges and the Bowery Boys.
Guest:Yeah, 38 and 56.
Yeah.
Marc:But what now, in terms of, during the pandemic, because you've done a lot of things, and the last time we talked thoroughly about stand-up was a long fucking time ago.
Marc:Yeah, it was.
Marc:It was like 10 years ago or something.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And a lot has happened, and I talked to Proops the other day about shit.
Marc:I was just picking his brain, because I'm sort of strangely- You, me, and Proops could do the Sunshine Boys.
Marc:That would be weird.
Marc:Like, I'm almost there, and I'm a Jew.
Marc:We remember getting paid in cash.
Marc:Sure, sure, at weird bars.
Marc:I remember running out of a bar in Fall River that Mike Clark booked.
Marc:Because I knew we were going to get robbed.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I was with my girlfriend at the time and the guy was paying me at the bar in cash and I looked down the bar and there are two dudes with that look.
Marc:So I got the cash and I said to my girlfriend, I said, walk to the door and then run.
Marc:Yep.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I remember being in North Carolina or South Carolina at the end of the week being white or green.
Guest:What is that?
Marc:Cocaine or cash?
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:No kidding.
Guest:Yeah, 88.
Guest:You should go with the cash unit.
Guest:I went with the cash unit.
Guest:To quote the late, great Bob Lazarus, because I wanted to own things.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Who is that guy that... Did you do the impression of...
Marc:Oh, no, that was Andy Kidworth.
Marc:The impression of Rick Kearns.
Marc:Yeah, no, that wasn't me.
Marc:The headliner asked for an advance, you know.
Marc:Can I get an advance on my money for the weekend?
Marc:He's like, how much do you need?
Marc:How much is an eight ball in this town?
Guest:It was insane, and you try to explain it to people, like the road in the 80s.
Guest:Did you read that Sam Tallent book?
Guest:No.
Marc:Oh, you got to read it.
Marc:What's it called?
Marc:Running the Light.
Marc:He's a comic from Denver, and he wrote this book.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:No, I have to read that.
Marc:About a road comic of that generation.
Marc:Oh, I have to read that.
Marc:Dude, it's great.
Guest:Do you know the John Fox story about- Which one?
Guest:John Fox or another John was having sex with a waitress in the club and she said in the heat of passion, screw me, you comedy motherfucker.
Marc:That's exactly the sentiment.
Marc:That's the love.
Marc:That the waitresses had for all of us.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I tried to explain to people, especially being in Boston in that era, I've never done cocaine ever in my life.
Guest:I've seen more cocaine done than the Eagles roadie.
Guest:I mean, to be in Boston in that period of time, it was... The back room at Nick's.
Guest:It was madness.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:People with...
Marc:pinwheel pupils like just yeah yeah and they're all some of them are still alive but not many no not many and really brilliant really brilliant guys and really nice guys yeah my favorite story is that one about a
Marc:That one, I don't know, they attribute it to John Fox, the guy who gets the bloody nose on stage.
Marc:That's one of my favorite stories.
Guest:I don't know this story.
Marc:Like he's just doing his bit, and all of a sudden the audience stops laughing, and they're looking at him in shock, and he realizes that his nose is bleeding.
Marc:And he touches the nose, he sees the blood, and he looks at the audience and goes, what, doesn't anyone party anymore?
Guest:That sort of self-insulated... I remember being backstage at Nick's watching Sam Kennison do three four-inch rails.
Guest:I've seen a lot of that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Going to the men's room, throw up, come out and go, if you don't throw up, you're not doing it right.
Guest:And then go on stage.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:And I, meanwhile, at that point in my life, was like, maybe I should stop eating meat.
Guest:So eyes on the prize.
Yeah.
Marc:But when I talked to you before, though, like, I mean, how do you feel like I'm very hung up on on on something?
Marc:The way I talked about it with Greg was I just said, like, did we lose?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:You know, like, yes, yes.
Guest:It answered your question.
Marc:But what are you feeling when you go out there in terms of like, because there's a lot of things going on.
Guest:Oh, you put it really well, to use your own words.
Guest:We have two things going on now.
Guest:We have people that are doing comedy shows, and there are people that are doing comedy rallies.
Guest:Yeah, that was really well observed.
Marc:But what happened to the side?
Marc:Because it seems like there's still like, why did you go back out?
Marc:I mean, there was a period there where you were like, I'm not going to really.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like you didn't really focus on it.
Guest:Not at all.
Guest:I was writing on a show.
Guest:I was newly married, bought a house, had kids, had a day job.
Guest:I was writing on The Simpsons, so people thought I was a genius.
Guest:It didn't matter that I wasn't.
Marc:No, but you are one of the best comics ever.
Marc:Oh, you're very sweet.
Marc:But I believe that.
Marc:When people talk about you, when I used to watch you, here's what I used to say.
Marc:It's like, he can do it all.
Marc:He can do voices.
Marc:On stage.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:off stage it's a very different situation of course yeah but but there was professional comedian but you were generating all this stuff and you know we we come from a similar place where you know we can't hide a certain amount of darkness right and you know like i don't think i was ever going you know despite like when i really think about my limitations as an artist i'm like you know i was never designed to be the big guy
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's hard to accept that.
Guest:It is very hard to accept that.
Guest:But did you?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:How did that go for you?
Guest:What made you know that?
Guest:Well, there's a couple things, but it really was...
Guest:When I first got married.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:At that point, you'd done like four one-man shows.
Guest:Yeah, I had done a lot.
Guest:I had done a lot.
Guest:And a lot of pilots and things.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I did everything that should have happened.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I had a really close call with SNL.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it just kept not happening.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And...
Guest:But then I met my first wife and I was like, well, this person loves me and we had a good life.
Guest:And I was like, I'll just have a nice life.
Marc:And it wasn't eating at you?
Guest:No, it was constantly eating at me.
Marc:And you were on medicine too, right?
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:And that was a great thing.
Guest:I mean, because I had serious mental health struggles up until today.
Guest:What time is it?
Guest:And I'm going to say this to both of you.
Guest:No, my mid-30s, probably 94.
Guest:94 was when I got medicated, and I'm paraphrasing an old Kenny Rogerson joke about it, surprisingly.
Guest:I meet people that knew me before I turned 30, and I just blanket apology.
Guest:I'm sorry.
Marc:Whatever happened.
Marc:A card you hand out like a deaf person.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:If you knew me before August of 1994, please take that all with a grain of salt.
Guest:But I did just realize, well, I can still do the stuff I like, and I still love to do it, but I'm just not going to be that person.
Guest:I'm not going to be a movie star.
Marc:But what about the biggest comic?
Marc:That thing.
Guest:No, I just I never I never felt I was I just like, OK, it's not going to it's not going to happen.
Guest:But my life was much better than I thought it would be.
Guest:So I I took the trade.
Guest:But then having been at The Simpsons for a long time, my my kids come along.
Guest:It it really.
Guest:And when I went into the Simpsons room, I had had pilots.
Guest:I was on Letterman.
Guest:I had albums.
Guest:I was on Seinfeld.
Marc:Wasn't there a show, like I vaguely remember a script that maybe you were involved in where Dave Attell played a baby?
Guest:Yes, I wasn't involved in that one.
Guest:Do you remember it?
Guest:Yes, I do.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But I had to completely shelve all of that.
Guest:I had to go into that place.
Guest:The Simpsons.
Guest:Yeah, anonymous, because they didn't care, nor should they.
Marc:Yeah, it's a billion dollar industry.
Guest:But the other writers are like, you know, it's like we're here on our merits.
Guest:And I was like a carnival employee.
Guest:I was like a guy from the carnival that they let sit in, you know, because they didn't they didn't understand my whole world.
Marc:Some sort of comedy pirates working with us here.
Guest:Well, it galls them because and I don't blame them because a lot of these guys are funnier than anybody on stage.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But they're like comedy mathematicians.
Guest:Yeah, but they're not famous for it.
Guest:But they're every bit as funny as famous people.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And they kind of, mm-hmm.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, and it's totally understandable.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And it took a long time before I could start to...
Marc:So it's all on the page?
Marc:All your charm powers mattered nothing?
Marc:Nothing.
Guest:You walked in like, hey.
Guest:No, I was naked, naked.
Guest:Just naked.
Guest:Yeah, it was very difficult.
Guest:Very difficult.
Marc:How long did it take for them to-
Marc:nine to ten almost a year just to like that I felt that I had earned my place there and I could start to just be a guy and not just the new guy and start to tell stories about stuff but your brain works like that it was like the other day I was like I was talking about that moment where I kept referring to the comics we were talking to talking about as old monsters old monsters yeah but there's a sweetness to that and then you went on that riff it's like Godzilla and Baragon and Baragon so you have sit down sit down sit down you have
Guest:Yeah, I hear you're good to your kids.
Marc:But you took it to the next place, which is sort of a Simpsons-y kind of trip.
Marc:Yeah, totally, totally.
Guest:And then after a while, talking about years, I had to go back because I really felt like a part of me was missing.
Guest:I was at a party and someone said, are you Dana Gould?
Guest:And I said, I used to be.
Guest:And my wife went, you got to go.
Guest:You have to stop that.
Guest:You have to stop that.
Marc:You have to go in walking around like a sad version of defeated.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Had I stayed on the show and not left, I would have many, many millions of dollars.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I would weigh 400 pounds.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I would be clinically depressed.
Yeah.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But so now when does this sync up with this is the beginning of alt comedy or is this after all that?
Guest:Well, no, alt comedy started first and then I went into the Simpsons right when the comedians of comedy took off.
Guest:So like when Patton and Brian and those guys started doing that tour.
Marc:When Patton began doing his version of you.
Marc:I didn't say that.
Marc:You said that.
Marc:That's when you bailed out.
Marc:Talk to the guy every time.
Marc:It seems like there's three people that collectively are doing me.
Marc:So I don't really need to be here.
Guest:Yeah, and I'm actually the worst at it, so I'm going to go on.
Guest:That's hilarious.
Guest:So that's interesting.
Guest:But it was like it got branded.
Marc:But this was always the thing, and I don't know if we talked about it another time, but most of the successful comics that came out of that scene were club comics.
Marc:They were not.
Marc:The alt movement, which is now completely defunct.
Marc:But you're talking about like...
Marc:Andy, Janine, Kathy, Brian.
Marc:We were doing comedy clothes, even Patton.
Marc:When Alt happened, we were like, well, this is a new venue and there's less drunks and we can process things.
Guest:Alt was about, it was a very punk thing.
Marc:Was it?
Marc:Because I remember hearing about it in New York.
Marc:Dana's doing a bookstore.
Marc:I'm like, what the fuck is happening that day?
Guest:Do we got to find a bookstore now to compete with you?
Guest:Yes, you do.
Guest:We did.
Guest:So many people in suede jackets writing on their hand.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But that was really a response to the commercialization of the improv and the comedy store.
Marc:The stand-up club, the franchise.
Guest:Yeah, like you couldn't bomb anywhere.
Guest:Like, Janine went on at the improv and tried out new stuff and then get yelled at because, like, Jim McCauley was in the audience.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And he's like, why are you trying new stuff?
Guest:She goes, because it's called the improv.
Guest:I thought this is where I come to do this.
Guest:Work out, work out.
Guest:Yeah, we just wanted a place.
Guest:Work out.
Guest:We just wanted a place.
Guest:And I remember specifically going to see Elvis Costello in the Rude Five.
Guest:It was his band Between the Attractions and the Impostors.
Guest:It was the Mighty Like a Rose tour in 1991 at the Universal Theater, which is now Hogwarts.
Guest:And looking at all the people in the audience that were my peers that I had been seeing at Elvis Costello concerts every year and thinking, none of these people go to comedy clubs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We have chased them out of the clubs with a stick.
Guest:Maybe.
Guest:Or they never went.
Guest:No, they did.
Guest:But they did.
Guest:They were at open mics.
Guest:But the comedy clubs by that time had been... It was like...
Guest:It was like an urban cowboy bar.
Marc:Well, yeah, but it was also like, you know, franchise comedy clubs created franchise comics.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And the ones that transcended that were truly gifted.
Marc:Those guys from the 80s that were able to come out with their own personality and point of view from that machine.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They're big comics and you may not like them, but they're real.
Marc:They're professionals and they're craftsmen.
Guest:I have a lot of respect for all of those people, even the ones I don't agree with.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You know, they're craftsmen.
Guest:But we just wanted a place to go and try out material and to talk to our audience.
Guest:And our audience was in bookstores and coffee shops.
Marc:Or enjoying music or a different type of culture.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:The last place they wanted to go was a comedy club.
Marc:Yeah, because it was and remains sort of cheesy, a lot of them.
Marc:They still sort of exist in this frozen time.
Guest:Well, people forget that...
Guest:The stand-up comedian at that point was a parody character on SNL.
Guest:Before the show Seinfeld, they had those sketches with Tom Hanks and John Lovitz.
Guest:Here she comes!
Guest:And there she goes.
Guest:It was to be parodied.
Guest:And...
Guest:We just wanted to go to some place and do real stuff.
Guest:And and the rule that we had at Big and Tall Books and was you had to do new stuff.
Guest:You couldn't do your act.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:The real tool.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I was one I followed.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so and.
Guest:And it's so funny because the person that was the best at it was Kathy Griffin.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, it was just like, oh, this has always been her style.
Guest:She just didn't have a venue for it.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:But that was the birth of the notebook.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It was like, of course you had your notes with you on stage.
Guest:You just wrote it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then, like, I think- And then that became a trope.
Marc:Al Lubel really ran with it.
Al Lubel.
Marc:He's got the most legal pads.
Marc:Walking around in sweatpants somewhere right now with his legal pads.
Marc:And you know what, he'll hear this.
Guest:And Wayne Cotter.
Marc:He'll hear this and he'll come up to me.
Marc:He'll appear like an apparition.
Marc:He'll be like, hey, I heard you mentioned me today.
Marc:It was with love, Alan.
Marc:It was with love.
Marc:Where are you living?
Guest:You okay?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's a real thing.
Guest:It is a real thing.
Guest:But then the notebook became a trope.
Guest:It never meant you're a sellout if you memorize your act.
Guest:I bring them up and I don't use them.
Guest:Oh, I bring them up all the time.
Guest:I have a note card.
Guest:I don't use them.
Guest:I blanked on Letterman.
Marc:You did?
Guest:No, on Conan.
Marc:On Conan.
Marc:Well, that's Wes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it was like, I did have, it was like, you know, the whole thing was over in three seconds.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, you were doing panel?
Guest:No, I was on stage.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:I was doing a bit.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I was like, do you want bullet point?
Guest:Nah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was just a weird day.
Guest:Like, I got a ticket on the way in.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was like, I'll be fine.
Guest:I'll be fine.
Guest:I'll be fine.
Guest:And then it was like, tick.
Guest:What is it?
Guest:I don't know what's next.
Guest:My career's over.
Guest:No, it was just, and I know what it'll be like because...
Guest:It was one of those things, like, I didn't panic because I was literally out of my body.
Guest:Like, this is my nightmare.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:This is my nightmare.
Marc:And then you just feel yourself leave your body and you're over in the wings going like, good luck, man.
Marc:Glad I'm not him.
Marc:Glad I'm not that guy.
Marc:I know that feeling.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Happens when you bomb, too.
Marc:Oh, I'm not going to stay here for this.
Guest:It happened in the car accident.
Guest:I was in a bad car accident.
Marc:You got back on track, though?
Marc:It came?
Guest:Yes, but it came after I said, I don't know what's next.
Guest:That's okay.
Guest:And they were very sweet to cut it.
Guest:Oh, they did.
Guest:Well, Conan did say, be glad it happened here.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, but that's the thing about you have to kind of restructure a lot of things to get that five minutes right.
Marc:You're taking a lot of things out of context.
Marc:There's no natural flow to it.
Marc:You've got to rehearse a thing.
Guest:And you're not looking at anybody because you can't really see anybody.
Guest:What happened in the car accident?
Guest:Well, I was in a bad car accident with Bobcat Goldthwait a couple years ago.
Marc:I heard about that.
Marc:Did you get really hurt?
Guest:We were in the backseat of a car that got T-boned very violently.
Marc:That's my biggest fear, the T-boning thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the thing is, we were only going from the hotel- Second to T-bagging.
Guest:T-bagging.
Guest:And that all depends on if you're driving.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I deliver it like fucking Johnny.
Marc:Second to- T-bagging.
Marc:T-bagging.
Good.
Marc:All right, so what happened?
Marc:Go ahead.
Guest:Hotel to the venue, two blocks.
Guest:We're in the backseat, no seatbelts.
Guest:They always say that, less than a mile away.
Guest:No seatbelts.
Guest:I was going to sit in the front seat.
Guest:Uber?
Guest:No, it was a production car, because we were going to film a thing.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I was going to sit in the front seat and the driver's dog was in the front seat.
Guest:And because I have no self-esteem, I said, no, I'm sitting in the back.
Guest:Don't worry about it.
Guest:So I sit in the back.
Guest:Had I sat in the front seat, I would not be here.
Marc:Bobby and the dog.
Marc:Oh, you mean he would have been killed?
Guest:I would have been killed.
Guest:I would have been killed.
Guest:The dog died?
Guest:No, the dog was a tiny dog.
Guest:It was like a little French bulldog and it got thrown on the floor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I would have been killed or badly damaged.
Marc:How about the driver?
Marc:The driver died?
Guest:Driver's okay, but the whole side of the car just went in like that.
Marc:Did someone run a stop sign or what happened?
Guest:We took a left and they just kept going and hit us, moved us.
Guest:Bob and I, Bob got a very bad concussion and we hit each other so hard we broke our ribs on each other.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I couldn't breathe.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And for a good 10 seconds, my thought was...
Guest:I'm going to die looking at the roof of a car.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I wasn't thinking about my loved ones or anything.
Guest:I was just that thought.
Guest:Fuck me.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:The roof of a car?
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I started to breathe.
Guest:I could breathe a little bit again.
Marc:So what did that tell you about you?
Guest:Yeah, not a good person.
Yeah.
Marc:But that's interesting about what we're talking about, the beginning of alternative.
Guest:I should have dieted more.
Marc:But the idea of the alternative comedy thing, when talking about Kathy Griffith, talking about the Un Cabaret, what was it, Big and Tall Books?
Guest:Big and Tall Books.
Guest:Luna Park was huge, yeah.
Marc:Luna Park, right.
Marc:That was on Cabaret.
Marc:And Largo.
Marc:Largo, on Cabaret, that whole world.
Marc:Right, Luna Park, yeah.
Marc:And then New York, we just had the one place.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But like you, I saw it as a place to workshop and learn over many years that just sort of bitterness is really amplified self-pity, and not everybody has it.
Marc:It's not as relatable.
Marc:But that's only because I have theirs.
Yeah.
Marc:But I used to assume that if you just dug a little deeper, there's part of you that feels that you've been slighted, ripped off, and your friends are terrible.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it's not true.
Guest:No.
Guest:Well, you can be slighted.
Guest:You can be slighted and ripped off.
Marc:Sure, but there's no reason to surrender that disposition.
Marc:What I learned is it was funny, but most people were sort of like, that guy's in trouble, I think.
Guest:Well, it's that, and it's also the realization that it's not about you.
Marc:But that's what I was going to say is that that's what it was about.
Marc:That's what defined that entire movement was a self-indulgence.
Marc:And I think you- Yes.
Marc:But you and I have always spoken from that point of view.
Marc:Like even when I was talking to Greg, Greg is, you know, he's thinking outside of himself.
Marc:But like we're always putting ourselves, you know, right on the fucking chopping block.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:But, and I will quote the best comedy advice I ever got.
Guest:From?
Guest:Kevin Rooney.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:said two things on the same night.
Guest:I was opening for him in Dallas, Texas, in 88.
Guest:And he said...
Guest:It's a show.
Guest:I know that one.
Guest:They came.
Guest:They paid money.
Guest:Many of them are paying babysitters so they could come here and pay money.
Guest:And you're in a light and you have a stick that makes your voice loud.
Guest:You have a responsibility.
Guest:It's a show.
Guest:How old were you when you heard that one?
Guest:24.
Marc:Oh, that's a good time.
Marc:I don't think I really realized that until maybe a year or two ago.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Well, the other one was even more important.
Guest:And it was same night.
Guest:He said, they want to like you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But first, they're curious as to whether or not you like them.
Guest:And I was a better comedian the next show because I pretended to like them.
Guest:Good for you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you continue that, which I appreciate.
Guest:I continue to this day.
Guest:And I've moved that on to my family and children.
Yeah.
Guest:Because it's a show.
Guest:It's a show, Mark.
Marc:And yeah, it's our show.
Marc:I wrote something down that I read on stage sometimes.
Marc:It just says, gaslighting, parenting.
Marc:Oh, very true.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My cat, my fiancee, pointed out something.
Guest:My nickname in my family was Dana the Complainer.
Guest:Yeah, that's good.
Guest:But the thing that I- They know that's your job.
Guest:Well, the thing that I complained about was getting beat up.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:So they gaslit you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You didn't like getting beat up, and they filed that as a complaint.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's interesting.
Guest:It's like, oh, Dana doesn't want to get punched.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:He wants to lift his arms.
Marc:Yeah.
Jesus.
Marc:The thing that changed me about stand-up was actually something Stuart Lee said to me.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah, it was similar though, but it was later.
Marc:It was on this podcast where for some reason at the time that he said it and I heard it in relation to who I was, where he quit comedy for years because he couldn't stand what was the audience and that feeling.
Marc:And then he went back and he realized when he sees somebody
Marc:who's not laughing, now he looks at them as like, well, you made the wrong choice tonight, huh?
Marc:Like, this isn't your show.
Marc:I'm not for you.
Marc:And it's not gonna work out.
Marc:But it's not a fault of mine.
Guest:Right, right, yeah, that's a huge step for a lot of people.
Guest:And we both know people
Guest:3,000 people could be laughing.
Guest:One person not laughing.
Guest:You just bore in on that.
Marc:Yeah, and somehow you find them in the room.
Guest:Like, what about you?
Guest:Fuck me.
Marc:Fuck you.
Marc:No, it's just... No, I'm sorry.
Marc:I left something in the car.
Marc:Yeah, I have a herniated disc.
Marc:It has nothing to do with you.
Guest:But, like, so how do we... How do we get to the comedy Bundt rally?
Marc:Well, I kind of see it.
Marc:But, like, I think that there was some...
Marc:that a lot of that, because I was thinking about Embar the other day.
Marc:Somebody tweeted at Proops about how he had tanked at Comedy Death Ray and he felt awful.
Marc:There was so much pressure.
Marc:It was so clicky and so like this thing that you had to be involved with.
Marc:It was like the Studio 54 of comedy at that time.
Marc:And all you wanted to do was be on those stages.
Marc:And they weren't great.
Marc:There was not a great room, not for me anyways.
Marc:And I resented them.
Marc:I'm like, who the fuck are you people?
Marc:Oh yeah, sure.
Marc:But I think it was all built on this false premise that this was some sort of revolutionary new movement in comedy because it just didn't hold.
Marc:Everyone kind of went their own way and nobody had a strong enough point of view to take on whatever the fuck is happening now.
Marc:And many of those comics, do they even do comedy anymore?
Marc:What was the intention?
Guest:That and also those things are by nature finite.
Guest:Punk didn't last forever either.
Marc:Yeah, no, but you and me, for whatever reason, we're lifers.
Marc:I don't know why, and I can't explain it, but a lot of them weren't.
Marc:And I don't know what their agenda was or what they thought it was or what they thought of stand-up, but I think one of the things that this fucking tribalization is happening is all these motherfuckers, these anti-woke, anti-cancel culture hacks,
Marc:that tell sort of open mic level gross out jokes and complain why they can't get work have co-opted this sort of truth teller Lenny Bruce revolutionary posture because there's not many of them that exist in real life and there's only ever been three or four of them in the history of the goddamn thing and what it is oddly it's people it's very different from what we were doing that is a comedian's
Guest:There are a lot of it's not just white guys.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, you know, it's like a lot of a lot of white guys feel this way.
Guest:A lot of people feel this way.
Guest:And among people, some people are comedians.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But what it really boils down to is people not wanting their way of life to change.
Guest:People don't want to not be able to say certain things.
Guest:They don't want to have they don't want to be.
Guest:To use their word, they don't want to be censored.
Guest:But it's also really, you don't want to be open to the fact that you might have to grow and change.
Marc:But it's also just the evolution of language.
Marc:We don't say Oriental anymore.
Guest:No one's like, you know, why can't I say Oriental?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because they don't, it's like the old guys that usually, oh, so I can listen to a rap song and they say the N word, but I can't say it?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:You nailed it.
Guest:Right.
Marc:They took it back.
Marc:Yeah, I just don't understand.
Marc:I get that part of it, but on our side, I guess what I'm seeking for myself, because I watched that Carlin documentary.
Marc:You watched it?
Guest:I did, too.
Guest:Yeah, it was really brilliant.
Guest:You liked it?
Guest:I did.
Guest:I liked it a lot.
Guest:And I was...
Guest:I was, you know, close to it.
Guest:I actually interviewed him the same day Jon Stewart interviewed him in Aspen.
Marc:I saw that.
Guest:And, you know, I had a passing acquaintanceship with him.
Guest:But he was everything to me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:As a comedian.
Guest:Like I was so I so worshipped at his altar.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That.
Guest:The fact that I liked it speaks very well of it.
Guest:Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Guest:Because I could have been like, oh, they left this out.
Marc:No, I thought it was thorough, and I didn't know a lot of that stuff.
Marc:I didn't either.
Marc:To be honest with you, after Class Clown and AM FM, after I was a kid, as a grown person, it wasn't that I dismissed them.
Marc:I just wasn't interested because I couldn't...
Marc:I couldn't feel the vulnerability in him.
Marc:I felt that everything was very organized, very scripted, and as he got more angry, I don't know why I lost interest, but now, in watching the doc and seeing what he was doing, where he just sort of ... I always thought that it was Hicks that he had watched, but it was actually Kennison.
Marc:It was Sam Kennison, yeah.
Marc:That made him realize something.
Marc:Scared him.
Marc:It scared him, but also competitively, he said, well, I can just speak truth.
Marc:Fuck it.
Marc:And a lot of the stuff he was saying was just raw, unfiltered truth about the hypocrisy of life.
Marc:But because he had a cadence and this amazing ability to list things.
Marc:Yes, he did.
Guest:It's so funny.
Guest:I'm going to tell you, and it's so funny.
Guest:Apropos of nothing, Kelly, his daughter, is a friend of mine, I'm assuming a friend of yours.
Guest:One of his complaints about his mother
Guest:was that she was always making lists really but yeah but what he took to that he you know he had such an incredible toolkit yeah that he could take a a concept like the planet is fine you know and make it work that he could he could frame it into enough ways to sell it to an audience right
Guest:Yeah, that that was what was really amazing.
Guest:And and he's, you know, you got to admire the guy had four different personas, four or five.
Marc:But also, like he had accepted what grounded him was the fact that he believed that that we were doomed and that he was going to live within that.
Marc:And that somehow or another in later life, he realized he somehow figured out a way to experience some joy and keep it on stage.
Marc:Whatever that other thing was, the guy that lived there.
Marc:Right, yeah, well put, yeah.
Marc:But what's interesting to me is I look at that thing as a documentary about a guy that unfortunately no one listened to.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that for people to co-opt him or talk about truth-telling when no comic that I can see, I do what I can, but none of the big acts are really doing what he did.
Marc:No.
Marc:Because they are playing into this tribalized nature out of ego.
Marc:Yeah, that that, you know, the biggest acts we have and people that are established as the greatest of all time or the new big guy are still doing some version of like, you know, look at these pussies are like, take my wife.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's just that's it.
Guest:He was able to transcend his own narcissism.
Guest:And I say narcissism in a way that we all are.
Guest:Any comedian is a narcissist.
Guest:Anybody who thinks that, you know who everybody in this room should be looking at and listening to?
Guest:Me.
Guest:Every president is a narcissist.
Guest:That's what I was just going to say.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:You know who should be the most powerful person in the world?
Guest:Probably me.
Guest:Really?
Marc:I don't see anyone else who could do it.
Marc:Yeah, I don't see anybody else around.
Marc:But he knew it, and he struggled with it.
Marc:It took a long time.
Marc:I don't think that many of us are pathological narcissists in a clinical way, but we are narcissistic.
Guest:Sure, yeah, well, yeah, that's what I meant.
Marc:There's a couple of people that are pathological narcissists.
Guest:Oh, there's a lot of people go right out of the handbook.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And it's scary, man.
Guest:It's scary, and it's also, I mean, let's look at Lenny Bruce.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:who's, you know, Carlin worshipped at the altar of Lenny Bruce, and he tried to do what Lenny Bruce did.
Marc:It's funny, like, with both him and Pryor, shortly after they were both influenced by Lenny Bruce, you can hear the cadence.
Guest:Yes, you can.
Guest:It's wild.
Guest:You can.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But what people... But, like, Lenny Bruce... The thing that brought Lenny Bruce down was he antagonized... The court.
Guest:The Catholic Archdiocese of Chicago and the police department that was full of Catholics and also the judges and the judges, the whole.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was and it was all it was he goaded the Catholics.
Guest:And because he was a drug addict, he made himself vulnerable.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:to anger law enforcement.
Marc:And also, did you see that doc that really framed it around him calling a judge on the take?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that the entire fraternal order of judges were like, fuck that guy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But it was also, he has that great line, Chicago is so corrupt, it's thrilling.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's what it was.
Guest:And then he became obsessed with
Guest:his own trials and tribulations.
Guest:He gets to the point where he's reading transcripts on stage, which gave us some of the worst comedy albums of all time.
Guest:You know, the thing that people hold him up for as a martyr was not as good stuff.
Marc:No, I think the best ones are the Berklee concert and Carnegie Hall, probably.
Guest:Yeah, and even American is a brilliant album, Lima, Ohio and stuff.
Marc:Sure, sure.
Marc:Oh, the early ones were just, you know, you can't even really hear the crowd.
Marc:It's just jokes that were cut from different performances.
Guest:Yeah, and it's just jazzy and, you know, this guy's a stalker.
Marc:But like the Berklee concert, you sort of like, I think I gotta take notes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And Carnegie Hall was just amazing because he was so lit, you know?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It was great.
Guest:But then like reading, you know, reading the transcripts, it's like he's just, now he's wrapped up in his own drama.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And he became...
Guest:the focus of his comedy like his and and that was the father of alternative comedy but yeah yeah but it was just like it stopped being about and he was a he got bothered by it because at that point the censorship was coming from the right the censorship was coming from the catholic archdiocese of chicago they were oppressing him now it's coming from the left yeah
Guest:And comedians that take umbrage at it are in a strange position because the job of the comedian is supposed to say the emperor has no clothes.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And now the emperor says, why are you against nudity?
Guest:And you defend the downtrodden.
Marc:And that's a weird thing.
Marc:Is that interesting?
Marc:You know, because I mean, I know Carlin said that, but Natterman, of all people, you know, had tweeted something that it hasn't left me about this sort of like, you know, comedy punches up.
Marc:And he's like, historically, that's not really true all the time.
Marc:Like, you know, if you look at slapstick and you look at like you look at the nature of comedy, it's not always punching up.
Guest:I'm trying to find a good example.
Guest:I'm trying to find a good example.
Guest:Well, I mean, a lot of people made fun of everybody.
Guest:I mean, ultimately, the message of Rick was- It punches all around, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:What it didn't, yes, absolutely.
Guest:Punch sideways.
Guest:Yeah, you punch sideways, you punch- Yeah, yeah, punch yourself.
Guest:Yeah, it was as, you know, an equal, I'm an equal opportunity offender.
Guest:Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But but it wasn't specifically, you know, now they find themselves feeling censored by the left.
Guest:And so they hit back.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But and I don't agree with the censorship part, but you need to be open to.
Guest:I will use myself as an example.
Guest:I was on a podcast several years ago and said a terribly offensive thing about trans people, about Alexis Arquette, who was still alive at the time, and I saw her at a restaurant, and I said a really shitty thing.
Guest:And a trans blogger called me out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I listened to them and I had them on.
Guest:And then a lot of, I didn't know I had trans people that liked me.
Guest:And a lot of people said I'm really disappointed.
Guest:And so I had this person on my podcast named Shadi Patas.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And kind of read me the riot act.
Guest:And at the end, I realized like, oh, I'm the asshole here.
Guest:You heard it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was just like, I'm the asshole.
Guest:I was completely wrong.
Guest:And it wasn't.
Guest:What was the nature of it?
Guest:I just said, I said, I don't want to repeat it because I don't want people to quote it, but it was just, it was very disparaging about Alexis's appearance.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you're judging, you're objectifying and dismissing.
Guest:Yeah, it was awful.
Guest:It was, I mean, it was.
Guest:I didn't.
Guest:Here's the thing.
Guest:Yeah, I didn't think about it.
Guest:I just said it.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And there's a problem.
Guest:And think about it because I didn't I wasn't thoughtful.
Marc:But the interesting thing about us, because I have similar stories.
Marc:And this is sort of where it's a good place to be with this conversation is that, you know, I've done that, too.
Marc:But when you get called on it, your gut goes like, no, I know I'm right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's funny.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, what?
Guest:I can't say this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, you can't.
Guest:And that was a situation where I could have absolutely doubled down and go like, oh, so I can't say it.
Guest:I don't hate her.
Guest:I didn't hurt her.
Guest:Like, she can't take a joke.
Guest:Right.
Guest:How is she going to live in society if she can't take a joke?
Guest:I'm here to help her.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:people say that yeah people say that toughen up yeah um you know joe rogan said uh he was he was using uh trans humor to he was making fun of trans people using a disparaging comment because he was trying to point out the when he got called on it he's just trying to point out the ugliness of the word to try to lessen the word's impact right uh you know let them do that right we know that word isn't good
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And also we live in a culture that is so sort of bubble oriented and each community has and should have a voice.
Marc:And that's what sort of brings people together, that we have that capability now that these communities can speak for themselves.
Marc:So you can't rationalize using something destructive as as somehow integrating them.
Guest:Yeah, and look, Lenny Bruce did it.
Guest:You know who's like Lenny Bruce?
Marc:Nobody.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That's what I was saying.
Marc:And there's nobody like Carlin.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And that there's this sort of boutiquing of issues that people just, I don't understand what they're defending, but this is- They're defending-
Guest:Look, as they say in recovery, you grow or you go.
Guest:And at a certain point, people have a choice.
Guest:You can be a Muppet on a stage or a Muppet in the balcony.
Marc:I don't want to be Statler and Waldorf.
Marc:But I think ultimately, though, they defend because that juice of aggravation, of that being aggrieved,
Marc:This idea that you're being censored or stifled, that becomes their point of view and that becomes the selling point of what they're doing.
Marc:And it's hack, man.
Guest:It's super hack and it's the same thing.
Guest:The outrage is the same thing that all of these people.
Guest:Hate groups have.
Guest:It's like, no, things are different.
Guest:I don't want them to be different.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Let's go back to this mythological thing that never happened.
Guest:It never existed.
Guest:It never existed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it's the same thing.
Guest:I don't want things to change.
Guest:Sorry.
Guest:Right.
Guest:The only thing that never changes is the fact that everything always changes.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But the next step of I don't want anything to change is, you know, shut the fuck up or I'm going to kill you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's the that's the other thing that the I never saw stand up comedy as a particularly macho, you know, because it wasn't.
Guest:And look, I have four older athletic brothers.
Marc:Do you remember Rich Franchese?
Marc:Yes, I do.
Marc:When he showed up, I'm like, oh, they're coming.
Guest:There they are.
Guest:Well, it started with Dice, but Dice said it was a cartoon.
Marc:But only it wasn't.
Marc:It's so weird because, like, you know, Tice is funny sometimes.
Marc:And I can't, you know, like... A lot of these guys are funny.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And I don't mean to shit on Rich.
Marc:Rich was kind of a sweet guy.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:But, like, just as the comedy nerdy guy, and I'm not really a nerd, but I'm not... Like, when he showed up with the brawn... We're not ripped.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, we're not ripped.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:We're not working out enough.
Guest:Yeah, and I don't... And I never understood that, even... And again, from...
Guest:Like from a writing point of view, like I also I have two careers.
Guest:I'm also a writer and I would never write a comedic character that was physically invulnerable.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's not what comedy is to me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was always I mean, I know that he's he's not someone to to hold up anymore.
Guest:I think it was in.
Guest:There's an early Woody Allen movie where he's going to get the shit kicked out of it.
Guest:And he kind of jokes his way out of it.
Guest:And when I was 12 getting beaten up every day, I was like, I love this guy.
Guest:Because he made it okay to not be a tough guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And also like all the comics, all the comedy.
Guest:I no longer feel that way.
Guest:Reality and events have caused me to evolve my opinion.
Guest:You know, the comedy stars, even when we were in, you know, John Candy, John Belushi.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, these weird looking, who's a comedy star today?
Guest:Ryan Reynolds, I guess.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Daniel Craig's kind of funny sometimes.
Guest:Does everybody have to be an Adonis?
Guest:No, he's the wacky Adonis.
Marc:But those Canadians, yeah?
Guest:Isn't Ryan... Yeah, they're all... But show me who's a comedy star today that looks like a person.
Guest:That's why I loved the new season of Kids in the Hall.
Marc:I'm watching it now.
Guest:Actually, I texted Kevin.
Guest:I was like, it's not only hilarious and still cutting edge.
Guest:It's beautiful.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like none of those guys have been in the gym.
Guest:They all look like human beings.
Guest:You know, they look like me.
Marc:Meanwhile, I woke up today.
Marc:I'm like, fuck, I can't hike because I got to do Eddie Pepitone's podcast.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Believe me, I work out.
Guest:What do we think is going to happen?
Guest:Well, I just don't like feeling sore and stiff.
Marc:I like feeling fat.
Guest:Yeah, that's a whole other conversation.
Marc:But going back to this idea of change.
Guest:And I appreciate you not pointing out how fat I am.
Marc:Yeah, no, you're doing all right.
Guest:No, I know how I look.
Marc:You'll work out later.
Marc:That's why I'm dressed.
Marc:You know why I'm dressed?
Marc:I didn't work out yet, but I didn't want to forget that I had to.
Marc:Right when you leave, I'm like, I'm going to go to the mountain.
Marc:I understand.
Marc:I understand completely.
Marc:But talking about this difference between, because it's weird, and you and I are similar in that.
Marc:We've been doing this a long time.
Marc:We know a lot of the guys that have gotten into trouble for one reason or another.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:we know you know guys who have faded away we know what comedy looks like you know when it comes back around and you're like holy what have you been doing you know are you all right and you know that yeah there there's a weird humanity to it all yeah yes yes yes but it's like plumber you know it's like plumbers they've been around sure hey you're still here hey how are you what happened with the lawsuit yeah yeah the building that blew up yeah yeah yeah i was i saw a comedian in the airport and was like hey what's going on and
Guest:My fiance was like, who's that?
Guest:I was like, oh, there's no friend of mine.
Guest:You've never mentioned their name.
Guest:Oh, but I saw him.
Guest:It's like, he was in my unit.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:I saw Joey Kamen at the 50th anniversary of the Comedy Store, and I don't think anyone has been as excited to see him as I have.
Marc:I was at the 50th anniversary of the Comedy Store, and I was looking at people, and I'm like, oh, I forgot who that is, and I'd go in the hallway to find the picture.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Bob.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Bob Gollum.
Marc:Yeah, Bob Gollum.
Marc:There's a case.
Marc:There's a case.
Marc:He's another guy.
Marc:Like, I'm pretty sure he's still alive, and I don't want to upset him.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I can't say nothing.
Marc:Yeah, because you don't want to get that text.
Marc:It's like, I heard you talking to Dana.
Marc:I'm like, oh, my God.
Marc:How do you still have my number?
Marc:But...
Marc:It happens.
Marc:But the interesting thing to me is that's why I printed this stuff up is I've had these moments where I'm not going to double down because I think that tolerance and engagement and learning and growing is important.
Marc:And the example I usually use about language is that there's a reason we don't say these things anymore.
Marc:It's out of respect.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that we all are humans and we're all trying to exist in the same plane here.
Marc:But there is some weird othering going on and there is the threat of this other sort of tribalized comedy, you know, sort of hijacking culture.
Marc:This is what, this is fundamentally, like a lot of us have sort of accept our boutique fame in that like, hey, I've got my thousand people or my 10,000 people.
Marc:I've got my little show on a thing that nobody watches.
Marc:But we don't have the culture.
Marc:So, you know, I don't know.
Marc:Obviously, everything is specialized in like people like Segura, who's one of the good guys, you know, has created his own show business.
Marc:And a lot of these guys create their own show business.
Marc:But that also feeds into the sort of like, you know, liberal Jewish elite Hollywood thing is that Hollywood has become really unnecessary for a great many people.
Guest:And, you know, when I when I went back into it, when I went back into it from being in The Simpsons and I really had to get back into the business from a standing start.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I looked at you and I looked at Paul F. Tompkins.
Guest:And I was like, you guys have built your own boat.
Guest:And you've sort of mitigated the need for gatekeepers.
Guest:And that was what I aspired to do.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's creatively challenging to adapt to new rules.
Guest:Yeah, there are absolutely liberal excesses.
Guest:You know, I don't like the idea of, you know, I didn't like that joke.
Guest:Don't show that special.
Guest:I don't like that.
Guest:It's like, you don't watch it.
Guest:They'll hear.
Guest:They'll hear.
Guest:That's how that works.
Guest:Because then somebody can decide they don't like what you're saying.
Guest:And they can take yours off.
Guest:But it's easy to gripe about...
Guest:new developments and rules and culture.
Guest:And all I see when I hear that, you know, about people complaining about trans people, you can't say this, you can't say that, you can't do that now, you can't say that now, is all I see in my mind is Bob Hope and Jack Benny making fun of the Beach Boys.
Guest:You know, it's like, I don't want to be that guy.
Marc:Well, no, but I think that this kind of conversation has been happening.
Marc:Cliff Nesterov pointed that out since the beginning of comedy.
Marc:It's always been an issue.
Marc:But I think that like for me, it's weird because it's primarily in the stand up, you know, here.
Marc:And I think one of the ways that you and I have prepared to protect ourselves over the years is by talking exclusively about ourselves.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So, you know, if you're not stepping out there and saying this is fucked up or that's fucked up and this is, you know, then you're not in that that dialogue.
Guest:Well, it allows you to make the it also allows you to make a point without telling people that they're idiots.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I do a bit about guns and I have to say out of the gate, I own a gun.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I have a hilarious joke, Mark.
Guest:I say I have a gun because I live in a big, scary city and I'm afraid the day might come when I have to kill my family or some people at work.
Guest:But but what it does is it it inoculates the audience.
Guest:I'm not saying you're a Nazi if you own a gun.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But then.
Guest:the people that hoard weapons, and then even somebody that owns a couple of guns is not in that group because it's like, well, you and I know we're okay, but these people.
Guest:And then if you are open, if I can make it so that you hear me, then later on, you might look at yourself and go, hmm, I'm kind of like that.
Marc:And I will say- No, yeah, I do that too.
Marc:But-
Guest:And I come from a family of gun-owning Trump lovers.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I grew up in New Mexico, a lot of guns around.
Marc:My dad had guns.
Guest:I had a gun cabinet in my bedroom as a child because it was the only room in the house that it fit in.
Guest:The first thing I saw when I opened my eyes in the morning was a dozen rifles.
Guest:And they all vote for Trump and they all love Trump.
Guest:But none of them think you need an AR-15 gun.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:None of that.
Guest:None of them.
Guest:And these are cops and prison guards and people that hunt.
Guest:You don't need it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You don't need it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, so even the people that you think are it's a it's a minority of very loud moneyed people.
Marc:That's the other thing is like, you know, I didn't get into this to be part of a group.
Guest:I don't want to be in the comedy Civil War.
Marc:Yeah, and I don't want to be, and I'm not a comedy cop because I'm kind of a dirty boy.
Marc:I mean, I do, like I did a bit on my last special, I said I'm about 85% woke.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And the other 15 I keep to myself, and that's what being woke is.
Marc:It's making decisions.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Around, you know.
Marc:That's really brilliant, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, you don't want to be 100% woke.
Guest:That's awful.
Guest:I don't even know what that would be.
Guest:But anything, well, it's that whole thing like,
Guest:Somebody, I believe it was Elvis Costello once described Jackson Brown as fuck me, I'm so sensitive.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, you don't want to be that.
Guest:No.
Guest:You don't want to be that.
Marc:But it's all part of this movement.
Marc:And I think that there needs to, like again, there's no civil war.
Marc:But, you know, how do we, you know, how do we start to talk about this?
Marc:Is it just that, you know, all these other communities have inclusive comedians, like the gay LGBT community has their comedians.
Marc:Native Americans have their comedians.
Marc:The Asians have their comedians.
Marc:The Mexicans, like, is that the way it's going to work now?
Guest:Is there just no way to... The balkanization of comedy?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I mean, it could be.
Guest:I mean, comedy is a lot... I always say that, like, comedy is like music.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And...
Guest:You know, there are you know, you could I'm trying to even think of an example of like you'd see a comedian.
Guest:I shouldn't be on the same bill with that comedian.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Totally different.
Guest:Totally different sensibilities.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it could be that it's like, yeah, there's a heavy metal comic.
Guest:He's a.
Guest:alt-comic, it could be.
Marc:But we've all been on those bills.
Marc:I'm just trying to land on this idea, like what we said about before, is that a lot of the people that are part of the tribe over there, they call themselves comedy fans, but they're the first to say, fuck you, you're not a real comedian.
Guest:Well, it's like, tell me something.
Guest:Yeah, well, I don't agree with that, and I don't find any of it funny.
Guest:You're just whining.
Marc:Yeah, but those aren't comedy fans.
Marc:No, that's what I mean.
Marc:They're like radicalized weirdos.
Guest:Yeah, and they don't laugh.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And that's not to be confused with this response.
Marc:No, that's a comedian's laugh.
Marc:That's a comedian's laugh.
Marc:Because we have no joy left in our bodies.
Marc:It's right in the throat.
Marc:It's an acknowledgement.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's all it is.
Marc:And you know it in the back of the room.
Marc:The other one is funny.
Guest:Funny.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's funny.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's funny.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I laugh more now.
Marc:But I was addressing- I have to tell you, I had a very- What?
Guest:I've been very, very lucky in my life.
Guest:And one of the things that I got to do was I got to work with Mel Brooks for a prolonged period of time.
Guest:And that was Mel.
Guest:He would go, that's funny.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:That's a writer.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:That's funny.
Yeah.
Marc:But this idea of, I think that there is some part of, not a solution, but there is something about engaging in the conversation because I've had a couple moments recently where I've had to rethink things because of people being triggered in one way or another.
Guest:Oh, interesting.
Marc:That, you know, because I don't really, I'm doing a lot more standup and I'm starting to push again.
Marc:I can feel myself pushing.
Marc:Like stepping out there and sort of like, all right, let's get real.
Marc:Let's get more real.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And do you have to do that?
Guest:Do you, do you, and you have to do that.
Guest:I'm assuming that you're at the point now where like you've anything new you get to try out, you got to put it 20, 20 minutes in.
Guest:Cause I don't know.
Guest:Your first 15 to 20 minutes because you're you, they're going to laugh.
Marc:Kinda.
Marc:I mean, but it's not, I can like, I'm loose enough now and I'm doing, you know, I'm not doing, I'm not taking an opener.
Marc:So I'm just, I'm riffing a lot, you know, and I'm just putting myself in the moment of what's happening.
Right.
Marc:But, you know, the two things that cause trouble are oddly things that will just cause trouble.
Marc:Like I just told a story that I don't even know if it'll stay in the act.
Marc:And I've done it.
Marc:I've pissed these people off before, you know, where I kind of make fun of Hasidic Jews.
Marc:I have an honest problem with religious fanaticism and sects.
Marc:I won't call them a cult, but they're insulated and they're exclusionary and there are problems that I have with that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I made light of something, you know, where I made the assumption that this Hasidic woman I saw who was probably 40 years old and was standing there with five kids looked despondent and lost and existentially drained and exhausted and looked like she was in trouble.
Marc:You know, that was a judgment I made.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the joke was, you know, and I thought for a second, like I could save her, but it went away quickly.
Marc:But it's part of a bigger story.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I got an email from a woman who is a psychotherapist for that community.
Marc:Oh my gosh.
Marc:Her clients are people who live in religious communities and that I'm not seeing the full picture, that I'm being, I'm categorizing them in a way that's not true because a lot of people find meaning and joy
Marc:And the argument sort of unfolded with me going like, well, that may be true, but it's still a religious cult in a way, and it's misogynistic, and they create trauma in people that will last generations as a way of holding on to the community.
Marc:And I basically said, I don't even know what you could be doing.
Marc:What are you treating?
Marc:Because I see the nature of those communities as pathological.
Guest:Right.
Marc:So what are you treating?
Marc:You know, how could she be anything but an enabler?
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:In my point of view.
Marc:But that's my point of view.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So she goes, well, I guess we see it differently.
Marc:And that's where it had to end.
Marc:And I realized, like, all right, well, I might not need to make fun of them.
Marc:But that was, to me, informative.
Marc:Is that, like, you know, I can have this opinion and it's legit from where I stand because I believe it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But, you know, I'm not being anti-Semitic.
Guest:No, and you and this woman are in tune.
Marc:That's what I was being accused of, I guess, in a way, is anti-Semitism.
Marc:Right.
Marc:As a Jew, it gets touchy.
Guest:This is not the time.
Guest:Aren't they doing that enough?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You're also in two different realities.
Marc:Yeah, it's weird.
Guest:You know, that's where I go with a lot.
Guest:And I have the same thing about fundamentalist atheists.
Guest:You know, it's just a different form of fundamentalism.
Guest:So you think I'm an idiot and I'm not religious.
Marc:Yeah, I used to do a thing about that.
Marc:There are no atheist soup kitchens.
Marc:So let's not quit.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:And it's like, so I'm an idiot because I think I know what happens after I die.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You, on the other hand, absolutely know what happens after you die.
Guest:It's just in your view, it's nothing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But you know that for sure.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So you're not an idiot.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There's a dogma to both.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Is it possible that something beyond our comprehension could occur?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I've said this a billion times.
Guest:My dog cannot conceive of my computer, but they can be in the same room at the same time.
Guest:It's possible that something beyond your comprehension can exist and you just don't see.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:And we're all waiting for more information.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's why I believe in the Hulk.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I'll die on that hill.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The other thing that I got pushed back on from was talking about mentally ill person, about having sex with mentally ill people.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Like I talk about this crazy woman and I say it's I'm not saying crazy that women are crazy.
Marc:I'm not using it in a misogynistic way.
Marc:This is a mentally ill person.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then I go off on just talking about borderline personality people.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Go look that up and see how many of those symptoms are hot to you.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's my entire dating profile.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:But like I got a woman, again, a therapist said she was at my show with a borderline person and she has borderline people in treatment and I was being an ableist and that not all of them.
Marc:Because I basically say they're out there walking among us, ruining lives.
Guest:Dude, I was complaining to a therapist years ago, complaining to a therapist about somebody that I dated for a long time.
Guest:And this, this, this.
Guest:And he reaches up on the shelf and opens up a book and says, read this.
Guest:And I didn't see the cover of the book.
Guest:And I just read.
Guest:And I was like, that's her.
Guest:And he goes, now look at the spine of the book.
Guest:And it was the textbook of borderline personality disorder.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But my point was, is that they are out there walking among us without either fighting their diagnosis or not knowing that they're out there just destroying lives.
Guest:And I know in my case, it dovetailed because it's like, oh, my God.
Marc:you know that i want to be loved but you also know that i'm to be hated yeah this is perfect but they but they don't know what but but my point was that she she she said that like you know i don't if you're going to do that bit you know you've got to take responsibility for your own mental illness i'm like no problem yeah have you seen my act yes yeah and you know i need to continue doing that bit because again but again it's one of those things where i believe that i'm helping
Marc:But I can easily see how it would be offensive to a certain type of person.
Guest:Yeah, but what you're not saying is, I don't understand why borderline people don't think I'm awesome.
Guest:But it's like these are very nuanced things.
Guest:Well, it's also anything can be awful.
Guest:Here's a joke from my act, Mark.
Guest:I was at a restaurant.
Guest:It was a vegetarian restaurant, and I mentioned that I was not a vegetarian.
Guest:This person said, you'll eat a steak.
Guest:I said, yeah, I'll have a steak.
Guest:Oh, but you don't want to watch them murder the cow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I love my brother.
Guest:I don't want to watch my parents fuck.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like, you don't have to drag everything back to the point where it's awful.
Guest:Everything is awful eventually.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Everything, you can trace everything back to out of shape, people fucking.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it's all in, you know, when you're telling this story, you're talking about a situation that you had.
Guest:You're not saying, you know what the problem with bipolar people is?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You know, it's like,
Guest:No, I get that.
Marc:I get that.
Marc:And also there's a difference between assuming a position of exclusionary ideology in defense of something that you think everyone should be.
Guest:Yeah, and it's all, again, because we are in a point where things are changing so rapidly and so seismically.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:that there are things that you don't understand.
Guest:The fact that you don't understand them doesn't make it wrong.
Guest:You're just old.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or just like you're just not being thoughtful.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, what I said about poor Alexis Arquette was I wasn't being thoughtful.
Marc:Being insensitive, that's all.
Guest:And I literally...
Guest:I literally was not thinking of her.
Marc:Well, that's it.
Guest:I think there's a difference.
Guest:But in a way, it's worse.
Guest:It wasn't like, I'm going to say this thing about her.
Guest:It's going to really suck.
Guest:It's going to get back to her.
Guest:Ha ha.
Guest:I was like, no, she's not a person.
Guest:I'll just say this.
Marc:But I don't even think it was that.
Marc:I think that there's a difference between being...
Marc:insensitive and being racist.
Marc:There's a difference between being insensitive or a bit ignorant and being misogynistic.
Marc:Ignorant and thoughtless.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:But sometimes, yeah, you got it.
Marc:But then you listen.
Marc:That's all.
Marc:I mean, it's sort of like, that's good.
Marc:I never thought of that before.
Marc:There's got to be room for that.
Guest:Yeah, you can't call yourself progressive if you don't let other people progress.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Or tell you that you're standing in the way of something.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Or that you're wrong about something.
Marc:Right.
Marc:As opposed to just going like, no, fuck you.
Guest:Yeah, and I did a bit in a special about the R word and equating it with the N word and the C word.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And, oh, it's so funny.
Guest:But people that are very, you know,
Guest:came after me and like wrote a letter to show time like how can you air this and where i was literally examining the word no i've done i've done but i might i've done a bit about that but i did have a i did have initially a thing like it's it's just the r word it used to be on signs yeah it's like it's it's not the same thing right i can say it right
Guest:And then, hey, what do you know?
Guest:You meet people who have members of the family.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it really hurts them.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And you go, oh, okay.
Guest:Oh, so wait a minute.
Guest:Oh, I was wrong.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But that's it.
Marc:And you put it in a special.
Marc:So it becomes like, that's the other thing is sort of like, so now that's held up as he goes, this guy is forever wrong.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know, we all evolve.
Marc:Somebody criticized a bit I did on Letterman years ago, and I have it on, I think I have the video on my website, it's out there, and he says, you might want to get rid of that.
Marc:And I'm like, no.
Marc:No, I mean, it's like, there's nothing I can do about that.
Guest:It is what it is.
Marc:It's a different time.
Guest:revenge of the nerds revenge of the nerds ends with a date rape that's the hilarious conclusion of the movie because it was made at a time when you could make that joke and it was so silenced that you know that people it was a different time people had a different attitude yeah were they right no was date rape less evil then than it is now no but this was made at a time when you did that and nobody even thought about it
Guest:as that right so do you delete the movie or do you hold it up as a as an example of yeah this is how fucked up our culture was when it was insensitive yeah this is how fucked up our culture was right yeah you know yeah Groucho Marx sings like Paul Robeson and Duck Soup yeah what are you gonna do yeah
Marc:Do you hate Groucho Marx forever?
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:At the time, that's what people did.
Guest:Again, what I always try to come back to is, and I benefit from also having children that aren't white.
Guest:And my daughters are Chinese.
Guest:And to see the world through their eyes and to be educated by them,
Marc:That's it.
Marc:That's well, that's the that's the blind side of people who are narcissistic and not necessarily pathologically narcissistic is that you have to learn empathy.
Guest:Empathy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:If there's anything that I do.
Guest:And the reason that I was so disturbed during the previous administration was that empathy became viewed as weakness.
Marc:It's so necessary.
Marc:Tolerance and empathy are necessary for collective democracy or community to work.
Guest:But it's not.
Guest:There is a large swath of our culture that has always been there.
Guest:Only now, because of technology, they are organized better and broadcast.
Guest:But they've always been there, the John Birch Society, that view understanding and sympathy and empathy as weakness.
Marc:But also as a threat to white culture, primarily, that we can't look at these people as equals.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that's yeah, that's the that's the danger.
Guest:And to see that codified is very disturbing to see that.
Guest:No, it's good.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's good.
Guest:That that's that was the thing.
Guest:Well, that's fascism that.
Marc:Well, that's the thing that mixed with, you know, no barometer of collective truth.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And by the way, right out of the handbook.
Guest:Right out of the handbook.
Guest:I know.
Marc:Nothing new.
Marc:Nothing new.
Marc:But I like this idea of, because I had this experience at the African American Museum in D.C.
Marc:where it's sort of like, sometimes with other cultures or with other people and their ethnic groups, you're empathetically hobbled
Marc:because you don't know their experience.
Marc:So how do you put yourself in their place?
Marc:So it requires education.
Marc:It requires an amount of listening.
Marc:It requires being told you're wrong and to sort of get hip to what the experience was collectively for that other person or of that other group.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, with somebody who's just sort of like, you know, alcoholic or has mental problems or, you know, a buddy, empathy is similar because, you know, it's easier to empathize because you're in the same frequency.
Marc:But a lot of us are not on the same frequency and it's on you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had no idea.
Guest:Like, I didn't understand why there was such an aversion in African-American culture to the vaccinations because I didn't have any knowledge of.
Guest:Oh,
Guest:The government never lied to me.
Guest:The sterilization.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or Tuskegee or any of that stuff.
Guest:It's like, oh, they have a cultural bias that's well-earned.
Guest:Not everybody.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Certain sections of certain cultures.
Guest:And again, that's pure...
Marc:ignorance not in a negative way it was just like i didn't know what i didn't know yeah and that and there has to be room for that uh and and and i guess that's we just have to keep plugging along with that even in the face of people going you know who gives a fuck right but it's also there's a but as a comedian
Guest:Do that bit.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You can do a bit about that.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:You know?
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:There's places you're not, it's like, how do we do comedy anymore?
Guest:Well, you have to try.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You got to work a little bit.
Guest:Yeah, find it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You got to find it.
Marc:And that's the challenge.
Marc:I've had a couple of breakthroughs recently.
Marc:It's great.
Marc:But that's the fun of it.
Marc:Yeah, that's the fun of it.
Marc:The fun is not making people go like, what the fuck?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I'll use, you know, limitations, whether they're financial or creative, are great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, we both had shows on IFC.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We didn't have a lot of money.
Guest:No.
Guest:But you had to be a little creative.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, until you got frustrated and slapped me.
Guest:Yeah, until you were told that you didn't want to do the show anymore.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:I don't?
Guest:Well, I told them I didn't want to.
Guest:No, we had different situations.
Yeah.
Marc:But, like, I came up with something the other night because I'm just trying to bend my brain into something, you know, to try to address certain things.
Marc:And I've got this joke that I'm doing about abortion clinics.
Marc:But, like, I'm trying to set up the issue.
Marc:And it just hit me two nights ago where I'm like, you know, why, you know, of course women should be able to choose.
Marc:But what I don't understand is why more men are sort of talking about it.
Marc:Because let's be honest, if you have any game at all, you've paid for one of these things.
Marc:right like you know you've had the conversation so do what you want to do but of course how much how much do you need yeah you need a ride yeah and then like and then i said the line i said look i'll fly back into town i can't well hang on let me get my calendar
Marc:But but but the thing is, is like, you know, where are the it's not even that I'm being self-righteous.
Marc:But, you know, it's not even a matter of allyship.
Marc:It's just sort of like we're half of the equation.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Half of the equation.
Guest:And that's it's a fundamental aspect of the human experience.
Guest:I have to tell you this just because it's so to talk about how culture's changed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Flipping the channels.
Guest:Airport.
Guest:1969.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Dean Martin is a pilot.
Guest:His wife drops him off at the airport.
Guest:The first thing he does is he goes in and sees the stewardess he's sleeping with.
Guest:And she says, I'm pregnant.
Guest:His first line, we'll get you the best doctor there is.
Guest:You're not going to some butcher above a drugstore.
Guest:It's like, well, can we have the conversation first?
Guest:Wow.
Guest:That's an airport?
Guest:That's an airport.
Guest:And it's not a comedy.
Marc:A butcher above a drugstore.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, man.
Guest:It's just a different time.
Marc:I do a whole bit about that.
Marc:It's a stringer in my new act about my mother's boyfriend.
Marc:The whole premise is he thinks he's telling stories.
Marc:He's not.
Marc:They're not stories.
Marc:They're just bits and pieces.
Marc:And you don't even know.
Marc:They don't land.
Marc:They don't go anywhere.
Guest:That's not a story.
Marc:But I say you don't even know they're over until he wistfully says, it was a different time.
Marc:And I just, I keep hitting it.
Marc:And it's like, it's hilarious.
Marc:It just, it eventually gets to the point where I just, I do him and it gets to this point where I go like, he goes, let me tell you a story.
Marc:I'm like, what?
Marc:He's like, New York City.
Marc:It's raining out.
Guest:Different time.
Guest:With me, it's when people recount a dream that wasn't a dream.
Guest:I dreamt that you and I were in Encino and you had to buy a tennis racket.
Guest:That's not a dream.
Guest:That can happen.
Guest:Wow, that's crazy.
Guest:Was one of us a giant worm?
Marc:My arm flippers?
Guest:Make this a dream.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:All right, man.
Marc:When are you getting married?
Guest:I'm getting married in August to a beautiful woman who... It was funny.
Guest:I was really...
Guest:sure i wasn't going to date anybody else and then i met someone and i thought well she's way too pretty for me and she went for it let's give it a shot yeah yeah yeah i've done that one yeah yeah and no it's great and it's a it's a it's a it's great to be in a healthy relationship where when yeah shit comes up we go okay
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Let's unpack this.
Marc:You mean as opposed to stuff it until you blow up unnecessarily about something else?
Marc:And they're like, why are you so mad about that?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I know how I'm going to handle this with quiet.
Guest:It's good talking to you, man.
Guest:Great to see you.
Marc:That was Dana Gould.
Marc:His web series is called Hanging with Dr. Z. You can watch it at hangingwithdrz.com or check it out on YouTube for all my tour information and whatnot.
Marc:WTFpod.com slash tour.
Marc:If you're looking for a dog and you're in the L.A.
Marc:area, go to my Instagram, at Mark Marin, and look at the pictures of the doggy over at the Pasadena Humane that Kit loves.
Marc:This dog Mimi, I think is her name, is a pit bull mix trying to get her adopted into a nice home.
Marc:This won't be a regular thing on my podcast.
Marc:She's just very close to the dog and wants to see it land in a good home as opposed to land in the grave or land in a hole.
Marc:Okay, let's play some guitar on my new banker, Leslie.
Okay.
guitar solo
guitar solo
guitar solo
Guest:Boomer lives.
Guest:Monkey LaFonda.
Guest:Cat angels everywhere.