Episode 1340 - Jen Statsky
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuck nicks?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast WTF.
Marc:Welcome to it.
Marc:I imagine most of you have been here before.
Marc:You've hung out a bit.
Marc:You know what's happening.
Marc:You know who I am.
Marc:You know what the deal is.
Marc:You know whether or not I annoy you or whether or not you like me or whether or whether or not I annoy you and you like me.
Marc:You know these things.
Marc:It's been a long time now that we've been hanging out, you and I and that guy.
Marc:It's been a while that we've all been here together, us and those two over there.
Marc:It's been, you know, well over a decade, maybe 13 years almost since we've all been just sitting around talking and those guys over there and that lady, all of us.
Marc:Don't don't alienate them just because they're weird.
Marc:We're all fucking weirdos.
Marc:Some people are toxic weirdos, though.
Marc:I'd say the self-aware weirdos are where we're at.
Marc:I think that's where we need to be.
Marc:Self-aware weirdos, not toxic weirdos, evil weirdos.
Marc:You don't want to be an evil weirdo, do you?
Marc:do you today on the show i talked to jen statski she is the co-creator and showrunner and writer of the show hacks on hbo she used to write for parks and rec the good place broad city lady dynamite late night with jimmy fallon she's a writer
Marc:She comes from the Boston area.
Marc:So that Jen's going to be here as a nice conversation.
Marc:Heavy.
Marc:I'll just I'll tease it a little bit from here.
Marc:Only child.
Marc:And, you know, I get a little curious about only children.
Marc:But besides that, tomorrow night, I'll be in Durham, North Carolina at the Carolina Theater, then Charlotte, North Carolina on Saturday at the Knight Theater.
Marc:And on Sunday, I am in Charleston, South Carolina at the Charleston Music Hall.
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com slash tour for all dates and ticket info.
Marc:I am exhausted.
Marc:It's weird because I was walking with Kevin Nealon and I just I'll be honest with you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:to do the hike show where we walk and he's got a camera on a thing, a selfie stick, and we do a little interview and we hike outdoors.
Marc:So I had him come over on to this side of the place.
Marc:We go up to the hike up here and it's midday because he had to do something with his kid and it was hot, we were sweating.
Marc:He'd forgotten the batteries that he had charged for the camera.
Marc:We didn't know if that was gonna hold up.
Marc:He's got a drone that I've never worked with a drone before.
Marc:It was very exciting.
Marc:Exciting in the way that like, what am I, seven?
Marc:Can I play with it?
Marc:Can I play with it?
Marc:Can I control it?
Marc:I didn't say that, but that was going on inside of me.
Marc:It was kind of exciting to see the drone, but he's a one-man show, this Neyland guy with the camera and the drone, and we're doing stuff and we're talking.
Marc:It was nice.
Marc:It was good to see him.
Marc:He's a funny guy.
Marc:It was funny to see him wrestling with a drone and dealing with the aggravation of being his own production team.
Marc:That was funny.
Marc:I don't know that he would see it that way.
Marc:I found it to be amusing.
Marc:He kept saying thank you for being patient, and I kept thinking, no, this is the funniest thing I've seen in months.
Marc:But...
Marc:He said, you know, what what what is the most most exciting thing you've done in your life?
Marc:And, you know, it's like there's so many exciting things and I so many exciting things.
Marc:And it's sort of a day to day thing.
Marc:I've had a great some great accomplishments.
Marc:But like, to be honest with you, day before yesterday or two days ago, I watched some of an Altman movie.
Marc:with Kit and then there was some really connected good sex and then after that it was like let's walk to Baskin and Robbins and have an ice cream cone and that was like the best ice cream cone I can remember having in my adult life is that weird and
Marc:And the sex was good too.
Marc:The movie, not great.
Marc:It was Buffalo Bill and the Indians and we didn't get far into it.
Marc:It was okay, but I think it requires some patience we didn't have.
Marc:But that ice cream cone, it was just a chocolate dipped waffle cone with a scoop of vanilla and a scoop of gold medal, whatever that is.
Marc:And I don't, who goes to Baskin Robbins that often?
Marc:But the weird thing is I'm of a certain age when I remember when Baskin Robbins was the ice cream place.
Marc:That was it.
Marc:That was like, we're going to go to get ice cream out at Baskin Robbins.
Marc:I think if you're on the East Coast, you had a friend lease here and there.
Marc:But where I lived at Baskin Robbins and it's lit the same way and it's set up the same way.
Marc:And right when you walk in and it smells the same, there's that there's that journey back.
Marc:And the woman who was there was giving me these scoops that were monstrous.
Marc:Like I was watching her scoop and I had a moment where I was like, yeah, I think that's it.
Marc:But I stifled that immediately.
Marc:I was like, all right, that's what you're going to do.
Marc:We're going to go.
Marc:We're going to do it.
Marc:And I'll eat fucking all of that.
Marc:But it was just that kind of.
Marc:sex ice cream combo i mean that's all you got for me i'm not a drug person so you're gonna you're dealing with uh you're dealing with caffeine you're dealing with uh uh endorphins released during sex and you're dealing with sugar and that was just uh you know they were all going and it was uh it was magical this is a this is not an ad for baskin robbins
Marc:So look, I'm experimenting.
Marc:I have this list I wrote down on a piece of paper.
Marc:It just says trauma, tolerance, empathy.
Marc:Interesting list, I know.
Marc:I could explain it more.
Marc:But I've been experimenting with being empathetic for the worst of us, with the worst of us, because some of the worst of us, some of the broken-minded grievance and blame junkies who are...
Marc:moving this country more towards something that no longer resembles a democracy.
Marc:I'm not being political here.
Marc:I'm just saying I'm trying to be empathetic because it'd be hard for me to be totally empathetic with someone who grew up in India because I don't know what that experience is.
Marc:But I grew up with these fucking fascists.
Marc:They were my neighbors.
Marc:They're the kids I knew in school.
Marc:We're all of the same.
Marc:And I understand the thinking.
Marc:I want to believe things.
Marc:I want to believe things.
Marc:I make connections.
Marc:I make connections of things that happen to me.
Marc:in almost a conspiratorial mystical way but i know myself i am self-aware of of the way my brain works and how it's broken and whether and when i have to say no to my mind sometimes my mind does things and i'm like no we're not doing that nope you stop it right now mind you stop it right now we won't have any of that shit that goes nowhere good brain nowhere good
Marc:But I get it.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:Look, man, I've been having some shit go down over here.
Marc:There's some signs.
Marc:There's some moments.
Marc:There's some indicators.
Marc:If I want to look at them like that.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I mean, you guys know had a coyote in the yard the other day hanging out, just sleeping, looking at me.
Marc:What's the coyote mean?
Marc:What does it mean?
Marc:Look it up.
Marc:What does a coyote mean?
Marc:Spiritual, mystical, Native American could mean good, could mean bad, could mean something is going to happen that you don't expect at all.
Marc:Could mean a lot of things.
Marc:All those things could happen also without the coyote.
Marc:But let's just assume that the coyote is an indicator.
Marc:Then a couple of days, maybe the next day, I thought the coyote ate the rabbit.
Marc:The rabbit had not been eaten.
Marc:The rabbit was just sitting there on my stoop, the rabbit.
Marc:So there's a coyote visitation.
Marc:There's a rabbit visitation.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Do you understand what's happening?
Marc:It's all happening.
Marc:These, you know, what does that mean?
Marc:What does the rabbit mean?
Marc:Why do they do?
Marc:Why is there so many birds around?
Marc:What's with the bird nests?
Marc:Why?
Marc:What are they trying to communicate?
Marc:Why is my house surrounded by electric wildlife?
Marc:And then I went on a hike the other day and I got stung by a fucking bee.
Marc:I got stung by a bee.
Marc:What is that about?
Marc:I can't even remember the last time I got stung by a bee.
Marc:It's kind of like the Baskin-Robbins thing.
Marc:It happens when you're a little kid.
Marc:It's very consistent, but I wasn't allergic.
Marc:I didn't start choking or breaking out in hives, but I got stung by a bee and I knew it was a bee.
Marc:And I reached around my back and I fucking I was like, I felt it and I grabbed the bee and then I saw it crawling on my leg with a big kind of string of ooze from its ass because, you know, it done its duty.
Marc:It done its job.
Marc:It made its kamikaze mission on my back to no end.
Marc:It meant nothing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I mean, what a waste of a stinger.
Marc:Here's the point.
Marc:What does it mean?
Marc:Coyote plus rabbit plus bird plus getting stung by a bee.
Marc:How does it all come together?
Marc:Well, I know the answer isn't the Jews are in on it.
Marc:OK, that's what I'm saying.
Marc:Had nothing to do with the Jews.
Marc:I'm a Jew.
Marc:Maybe I'm being targeted somehow.
Marc:But see, even that's a fucking stretch.
Marc:The point is, if you're going to string together a bunch of random things, even if they seem like they sound like they make sense and they could be connected, it's just an attempt to have a context to have.
Marc:explanation to have some sort of chain of events that explains things but may be completely desperate and have nothing to do with each other and also could be complete bullshit and the jews had nothing to do with it that's all i'm telling you like maybe some native american spirits for me but i mean rethink it
Marc:No brain.
Marc:No, those aren't connected things.
Marc:They have no meaning whatsoever.
Marc:Hey, brain, I just put a bunch of bullshit into your engine.
Marc:Disregard.
Marc:Disregard.
Marc:The bee sting.
Marc:The coyote.
Marc:The rabbit.
Marc:The birds.
Marc:All right?
Marc:The Jews will not replace me.
Marc:Because I'm a Jew.
Marc:Right?
Marc:That's what the bee said to me.
Marc:Look.
Marc:Hey, listen.
Marc:It was great talking to Jen Statsky.
Marc:Because I don't talk to a lot of writers specifically about writing and where they come from.
Marc:But it was good.
Marc:And it was enjoyable.
Marc:And I like the show.
Marc:It's weird because...
Marc:As a comic, you don't know if you're going to like a show about comics because usually you don't.
Marc:But they were very specific about how about the life of this particular comic and the backstory.
Marc:And it was, I think, on the money and remains on the money in a lot of ways.
Marc:As a comic, I'm not thinking like, this is bullshit.
Marc:So anyways, season two of Hacks just finished.
Marc:You can watch both seasons on HBO Max.
Marc:This is me talking to the co-creator of that show, Jen Statsky.
Marc:Do you like Los Angeles?
Guest:I do.
Guest:I mean, like, now I'm used to it, you know?
Guest:I'm an East Coaster, and I do... Where from?
Guest:Right outside Boston.
Marc:Where?
Guest:Milton.
Marc:I went to school in Milton.
Marc:You did?
Marc:Curry College.
Guest:You went to Curry College?
Marc:For a year.
Guest:No way.
Marc:I did.
Marc:I went to Curry College for a year.
Guest:My summer camp where I worked was at Curry College.
Marc:What kind of summer camp?
Guest:It was a YMCA day camp where I was a counselor, and we used the grounds of Curry.
Marc:No kidding.
Guest:That's so funny that you went to Curry.
Marc:I was there, yeah.
Marc:I was there for ... I kind of blew it in high school, and I scrambled.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:My senior year, I decided I got to go somewhere.
Marc:And I ended up at Curry.
Marc:And I don't, yeah, I have memories of it pretty good.
Marc:I mean, it was okay.
Marc:I don't remember learning anything, but I remember.
Guest:You went to BU though, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You did a year there.
Marc:I went to Curry for a year and then I did four more at BU.
Guest:Yeah, the five-year program.
Marc:Yeah, I did the five-year program.
Marc:I want to take that last year kind of easy.
Yeah.
Marc:But Milton, that's pretty fancy, isn't it?
Guest:You know, it is fancy.
Guest:There's a very fancy private school there, Milton Academy, which I drove through the grounds on my way to public school.
Guest:I did not go to Milton Academy.
Guest:I went to public school in Milton.
Guest:But Milton is a weird, there's half of the town that is like super fancy, super wealthy, and then there's another half that is not really.
Guest:I mean, listen, I haven't lived there in
Marc:A long time?
Guest:A long time, but that's what it was like.
Marc:I was probably in school there before you were born.
Guest:I, let's see.
Marc:I was there 81, 82.
Marc:That's when I was in Milton.
Guest:Okay, I was born in 85.
Marc:Okay, so I just missed you.
Guest:Just missed each other.
Guest:Would have been fun.
Guest:Would have been fun to hang.
Marc:But then it was like a few miles away from Mattapan, right?
Marc:Didn't you just drive?
Guest:Yeah, very close to Mattapan, yeah.
Marc:I just don't, I kind of, I just remember it was a big deal to like, it wasn't, you had this idea that when going to school in Boston, but it was a schlep.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's not like you just go to Boston.
Guest:No.
Guest:Public transportation was not great.
Marc:Out to Milton?
Guest:Yeah, it wasn't an easy thing to just, even though Milton is 15 minute drive into Boston as a kid, the public transportation was not great.
Guest:So I didn't get to go into Boston a ton.
Guest:I did because my dad is from Southie and is very- Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What's his story?
Guest:He was a- From Southie?
Guest:He still is.
Guest:He's alive.
Guest:Yeah, from Southie.
Guest:Irish guy?
Guest:No, Polish.
Guest:Polish Catholic.
Guest:Huh.
Marc:That was happening in Southie?
Guest:Yeah, there's like a small Polish population in Southie.
Guest:But yeah, he born and raised in Southie.
Guest:His parents own like a corner store.
Guest:Very, very working class.
Guest:Like didn't finish high school.
Guest:Became a building inspector for the city of Boston.
Marc:Your dad did?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did he talk like he was from Southie?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He has a crazy thick accent.
Guest:So thick that when I moved into NYU my freshman year, the roommate who I was assigned to couldn't understand him.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He came in and she had a photo that she had put up of her and her boyfriend, I guess, at the time.
Guest:And he was like, ah, is that your hugger?
Yeah.
Guest:Is that your hugger?
Guest:And she looked at him and I was like, he's saying, is that your hugger?
Guest:Which is like, you know, it's like Southie.
Guest:They have all these like weird terminology.
Marc:Boston slang is the weirdest.
Guest:It's really weird, but he's so that.
Marc:Like there's like Jimmy's for your ice cream.
Guest:Yeah, which is not, which apparently is a racist term.
Marc:Is it really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had no idea.
Guest:But that's Boston for you.
Guest:There's so much stuff we grew up with.
Marc:And there was some other one that was weird for soda.
Marc:I can't remember.
Marc:I can't, like there was, yeah, it's like the fighter.
Guest:So your dad was in- It's very, like all those cliche Boston movies I watch and I'm like, this is exactly correct.
Marc:They get it right?
Guest:Yeah, they do.
Guest:They really do get it.
Marc:Do you judge the actors who do Boston accents pretty harsh?
Marc:It's a tough one, man.
Marc:It's a tough one.
Marc:I would turn down a role if I was expected to do that one.
Guest:Do you think, how is your Boston accent?
Marc:I could probably do it.
Marc:I can't drop right into it, but I'd have to think about it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, I spent a bit of time there.
Guest:Yeah, it's I don't judge it too harshly, but it does very much stick out to me when there's sort of annoying.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I yeah, I was there for a long time.
Marc:I was in Somerville and I had definitely had a profound impact on me.
Marc:I grew to resent New England townies fairly deeply.
Guest:Well, that's kind of my experience, too, is that even though I'm from there and I do have some real affection, some of my best friends still live there.
Guest:The thing about it, the chip on the shoulder is a very real thing for people in Boston.
Guest:I don't exactly know why, but I felt that very strongly.
Marc:They just have it.
Guest:They just have it.
Guest:I don't know what it is.
Marc:I wonder if it's an Irish thing.
Guest:It might be, because it might be.
Marc:It's just some sort of extension of the general historical chip on the Irish shoulder.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's just sort of the American version of it.
Guest:It might be.
Guest:Yeah, because Milton, where I grew up, had the highest per capita Irish Catholic population in America.
Marc:I thought you were going to say chip on the shoulders.
Guest:The highest per capita.
Guest:Yeah, they did a study and the highest per capita chips on shoulders.
Guest:A lot of chips.
Marc:So it was Irish mostly?
Guest:Super Irish, super Irish Catholic, yeah.
Marc:It's so odd that I had this, I got very, I started doing comedy there and I spent a lot of time there and I began, I got kind of afraid of them, of the Boston Irish because they were intense and it was scary.
Marc:And it was weird because the first time I went to Ireland, I saw a lot of Irish people that looked much like the Irish in Boston.
Marc:So I was naturally kind of nervous.
Marc:PTSD, yeah.
Marc:But they're also sweet there.
Guest:Yeah, they're very, yes, I've been to Ireland.
Guest:They're the sweetest people.
Guest:But they look the same as the ones in Boston, don't they?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.
Marc:It freaked me out.
Guest:But it's a love-hate thing for me because the chip on the shoulder bothers me, but then at the same time, there's a toughness there that I genuinely love and connect with.
Marc:Oh, yeah, and their characters, too.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Your dad sounds like one of those characters.
Marc:He's an absolute character.
Marc:They're not hiding much.
Marc:I mean, they're very forward-facing.
Guest:Yes, yeah, yeah.
Marc:What about your mom?
Marc:Is she from there?
Guest:So my mom was from High Park.
Guest:Do you know High Park?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's like, yeah.
Guest:So she kind of, I mean, my mom was, she passed away a few years ago.
Guest:Sorry.
Guest:Oh, thanks.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Not, like, yeah, pretty mentally ill, to be honest.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Her and my dad had a very not ideal relationship, though married to the day she died.
Marc:No kidding.
Marc:What do you mean mentally ill?
Guest:What kind?
Guest:As I got older, it was kind of an agoraphobia.
Guest:It was kind of like a not leaving the house.
Marc:So the family didn't quite identify it as mentally ill until in retrospect?
Guest:No, I'm identifying it, but I'm the only one.
Guest:Because my dad, again, a character, but there is no discussion of feelings.
Marc:No emotional language other than excitement and anger?
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And I'm an only child, so it's like that funny thing.
Guest:I'm the only one living it in reality to some degree.
Marc:Oh, and so your mom was just a little freaked out.
Guest:Yeah, there was definitely undiagnosed bipolar or something going on where it was just not the best.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:And you were the only one.
Marc:You were the only child.
Guest:I was the only child, yeah.
Marc:And you had to get out.
Marc:Because it's so weird.
Marc:I was watching that.
Marc:I finally got around to watching some of that George Carlin doc last night.
Marc:I haven't watched it yet.
Marc:Well, there's just some, like, he's Irish New York, you know, and there's something about that capacity to stuff feelings.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That seems to be a Catholic thing, certainly an Irish Catholic thing.
Marc:I don't want to generalize.
Guest:No, it's super.
Marc:And he was highly aware of it and still couldn't do anything about it.
Guest:Yeah, it's very, you know, the being taught the language of feelings and how to talk about these things is very it's very rare.
Guest:And it's only a recent thing, I think.
Guest:And so, yeah, I mean, I don't know.
Marc:How are you at it?
Guest:I am.
Guest:I've had to get good at it because I had to.
Guest:It was such a kind of fraught zero through 18, you know, that once I left, I was like, oh, I really like you were not socialized.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, but I was like, oh, I need therapy pretty bad.
Marc:You're like a feral Catholic from just being in the house.
Guest:Yeah, I had to be socialized, put in a pen with other animals to socialize.
Marc:Other emoting people.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, and I don't know, just talking about it, I'm not sure how good I am at communicating it.
Marc:I think I'm more of, I'm like, okay, I'm okay, I'm good.
Marc:But there are people I talk to.
Marc:I mean, you only need a couple, right?
Marc:You can't just run around emoting all the time.
Guest:No, that wouldn't be good either, yeah.
Marc:My brother's like that, where you're just sort of like, dude, just...
Marc:Keep some of it in.
Guest:Talking to the waitress, yeah.
Marc:Just too much.
Marc:Well, my dad was terrible.
Marc:What are the specials?
Marc:That's my brother.
Marc:So you were just there in the house.
Marc:You needed to get out, I imagine.
Guest:Yeah, I was very, you know, my dad worked a lot.
Guest:He was a building inspector, like I said, but he also was a bartender and just like, also I think, you know.
Marc:Did he work at a bar called Patty's?
Guest:I'm sorry.
Guest:He worked at Amryans.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Amryans in South Boston, if anyone's listening.
Marc:So he stayed in there.
Marc:He lived in Milton.
Guest:So that's the thing, is that we lived in Milton.
Guest:They moved there, and I think probably because the schools were better and stuff, but he never left behind that Southie boy thing.
Marc:So he knew the Bulger brothers and grew up with all that shit.
Guest:Yeah, he grew up with all that.
Guest:Did you watch Black Mass?
Guest:That's a good question I got to ask.
Guest:Like a couple of years ago, like this was so bizarre.
Guest:I still don't understand how it happened.
Guest:Like a Postmate came to my door.
Guest:I ordered food and my husband was like, hey, Jen, the Postmate wants to talk to you.
Guest:And I was like, you want to talk to me?
Guest:Well, he's got questions about the order.
Guest:What are we talking about?
Guest:And it was this guy that my dad had like, I guess, you know, my dad spent a lot of time around the projects in Southie.
Guest:And he was kind of like this surrogate father figure, I guess, to guys there.
Guest:And this guy who actually was part of Mark Wahlberg's like entourage, sort of the group of guys that entourage was based on.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:was telling me that my dad used to come and pick them all up in his truck.
Guest:And he was like, yeah, these guys didn't have shoes.
Guest:And your dad took us to buy sneakers.
Guest:And I'm just like, thank you for my food.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:That happened in L.A.
Marc:?
Guest:That happened in L.A.
Guest:and I don't know.
Guest:And it's a it's that really interesting thing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Of like he wasn't super present for me in the ways I wish he had been.
Guest:Yet I'm hearing about this whole other.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:The street thing.
Guest:The street thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think the pull of that was hard for him to shake.
Marc:Yeah, and I guess there's an understanding.
Marc:I mean, he must have been, I don't know, maybe he was just baffled by a daughter.
Guest:Yeah, I think he was baffled by my mom and how to maybe handle that and then probably baffled by a daughter and baffled by the idea of marriage.
Guest:And it didn't seem like he got it or wanted to get it.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:It just all happened.
Guest:It happened, yeah.
Marc:And then he'd go back to Southie and work.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And he just felt- But had a second life out in the suburbs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:For years, I was like, do I have a sister or brother?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Maybe I still do.
Guest:Is he still around your dad?
Guest:Yeah, he's still around.
Guest:He's still around.
Marc:And you guys get on all right?
Guest:We get on all right.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's, you know-
Marc:Yeah, I do.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, you go through periods.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then they get really old if you're lucky.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then you kind of got to go suck it up and deal with them.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But but yeah, I just so growing up, you know, it was it was a lot of me alone watching TV.
Marc:So you did that where you see your kind of the latchkey watch the comedy person.
Guest:Watched a lot of TV.
Guest:Also just like leaned.
Guest:I think the lack of kind of structure that way made me lean super hard into like achievement and school and just became like hyper focused on that stuff.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:But were you like a comedy person?
Guest:I wasn't doing comedy.
Marc:No, but when you were a kid, were you watching it?
Guest:I loved it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Nick at Night, Mary Tyler Moore Show was like my thing.
Marc:Really?
Marc:That was the thing?
Guest:I was obsessed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was a huge influence on me.
Guest:So I was watching a ton of comedy.
Guest:And then when I got to New York, when I went to NYU, I started discovering more like watching stand-ups I loved and watching, you know, doing UCB and stuff.
Marc:So when you graduate, you went to high school and you didn't do anything there?
Marc:You didn't do any performing?
Guest:I didn't do any performing or comedy there.
Guest:I like wrote.
Guest:I was an editor for like the school newspaper and I like wrote.
Marc:Breaking the big stories.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Kind of the Woodward and Bernstein of Milton High School.
Guest:No, I was doing like like looking back, they were.
Guest:humor columns.
Guest:I'm using quotes around humor.
Marc:But looking back, you don't remember in the moment writing things that were supposed to be funny?
Guest:I don't think so, no.
Guest:Is that weird?
Guest:I don't think I knew at the time that I liked comedy or that I was trying to do comedy.
Marc:That that was your angle?
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:But yeah, that was kind of what I wrote for the paper, things like that.
Guest:That was the closest I got to any sort of comedy in high school.
Marc:And you've created this picture for me that you had friends and stuff, yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:The home life seemed a little dark.
Guest:The home life is a little dark.
Guest:I had wonderful best friends who were really like surrogate family to me who are still some of my closest friends.
Guest:They're still my best friends.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Yeah.
Guest:But but yeah, it was an interesting kind of there was this like home life thing happening and there were no one really got what was going on with it.
Guest:And it was a very like I think I also used humor in that way.
Guest:Very common thing kids do of like, no, no, pay attention to this.
Guest:I'll be funny or I'll do this.
Guest:I just distract from what's going on.
Marc:Were you afraid to bring people home?
Guest:Yes, I wasn't allowed to bring people home.
Marc:By who?
Guest:By my mom.
Guest:Oh, was that a germ thing or part of the agoraphobia thing?
Guest:It was agoraphobia, but she was so hyper focused on appearances.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:very a big part of how her agoraphobia developed over the years was she was super she would spend hours like putting on makeup and caring a lot about appearance and so it was very tied to like oh the house it's about how the house looks and things have to look right sounds like ocd too i think some ocd yeah yeah um so it was very but then there was also you know there were they the my parents they got into fights where like the cops would come and so it was and
Marc:It was no booze, just weirdness.
Guest:There was there was booze.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so that was also part of it.
Marc:The neighbors would call.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's the worst.
Guest:And then, you know, your neighbors who are kids at school with you.
Guest:And so it was it was kind of it created this need in me to deflect, you know, go like, no, no, look at me being funny or doing well in school.
Guest:Look at me doing sports, something like that.
Marc:Just kind of get into the control your life mode.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Chaos.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Chaos, I think, kind of from talking to people who grew up in similar things, like you either go towards more chaos or you go hyper opposite control.
Guest:And I went very much so towards control.
Marc:Guys, you know, people grew up in boozy, crazy homes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Either they go boozy or they never touch the shit.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Well, whatever, whatever, something picked the right one.
Yeah.
Marc:You got lucky.
Marc:Who knows how that can go?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I mean, it's a more inward turmoil, I think, the control route.
Marc:I guess that's true.
Marc:I guess, like, yeah, if you don't need the attention, you know, or you don't seek it in that way of like, oh, I'm crazy.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:It's, yeah.
Marc:So you got into NYU?
Guest:Got into NYU, yeah.
Guest:I really wanted to go to New York.
Guest:My dad had taken me to New York, and we had spent a weekend there.
Marc:Did you know you wanted to study theater or art or whatever?
Guest:I knew I wanted to write.
Guest:When I got there, I was thinking maybe more journalism.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and I did a few journalism classes the first year.
Guest:Bored out of my skull.
Guest:So boring.
Guest:And so then I also had loved television and so started taking film and TV classes.
Guest:And that's sort of where I- Just to see?
Marc:Just to see how it felt?
Guest:Yeah, just to see.
Guest:And that felt much more correct.
Marc:How did that start?
Marc:What are those classes like at NYU when you're just like, oh, I'm going to take a film and TV class?
Guest:There.
Guest:I mean, some of it is like theory, just like watching films and talking about that.
Guest:And then and then you get into the more like doing short film, making short films with other people in the class.
Guest:Happens pretty quickly.
Guest:It happens the second year of the program that you're making like short films.
Marc:So you were able to see like pretty quickly that like, oh, this is how this stuff is made.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It does throw you in to it pretty quickly of like, okay, go make a thing and go screen it for the class and get feedback on it.
Guest:I did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I learned.
Guest:It also was hilarious.
Guest:They're really good.
Guest:I've been asking my agents to find a platform.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I know I just won an Emmy, but could you get that short out that I did in my year?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That I shot in Washington Square Park with stop action.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, but it was instructive, I remember.
Guest:I mean, God, if I watch them now, I would be horrified, of course.
Guest:But I do remember you had to make three or four short films.
Guest:It was a class called Sight and Sound.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you had to make four films.
Guest:And I did like three that were like funny, supposed to be funny.
Guest:And then the fourth one, I remember the teacher said, why don't you challenge yourself and do something that's more dramatic, not comedy.
Guest:And I was like, sure.
Guest:And I did it and it was something where this couple was, I don't even remember, but they're like playfully flirting in the street and then his hat gets tossed and he goes into the street to get his hat and he gets hit by a car.
Guest:And the whole class burst out into laughter because it was just, I think maybe they were like, she makes the funny things.
Guest:This is hilarious.
Guest:Or maybe it's objectively so funny because it's so insane.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But that's so funny.
Marc:That was your idea when you said to be more dramatic.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:No problem.
Guest:You want drama?
Guest:He dies going to get his hat.
Marc:And just leaves her standing there.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:She sees the whole thing.
Guest:It was so bad.
Guest:It was so bad.
Marc:But it did make me go, like, I guess I'll just lean into this other... But it's so funny that people would assume that a teacher... Like, comedy's the hard thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Drama, like, I mean, it's not that... I don't know.
Guest:That drama's hard for me.
Guest:I couldn't do it.
Guest:I came up with the guy running in the street.
Marc:Sure, but I mean, I guess it just seems like a...
Marc:There's a lot more options with drama, right?
Marc:And that comedy, it's got to be funny.
Guest:Yeah, I do think that sometimes when I'm writing, there is this natural barometer of like, okay, is this scene funny?
Guest:And I do sometimes wonder if you're writing a drama, I guess it's just, is this scene interesting?
Marc:If you're like, can we take this joke out?
Marc:It's not reading right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, it's almost like, I don't know if it's the opposite, but yeah, things gotta, they gotta land differently.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Marc:But there's a lot of drama, at least in Hacks.
Guest:Yeah, no, there is, there is.
Marc:So where does that take you?
Marc:Where does NYU, like, where do you land?
Marc:In these movies, were there any people in your class that we know, actors?
Marc:I always like hearing when they're actors in short films, we're sort of like, yeah, John Turturro did my short film.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, no one that was, like, in my shorts.
Guest:I was the same year as some, like, the Olsen twins and Lady Gaga were my years.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did you know Lady Gaga?
Guest:I hung out with her a couple times.
Guest:We had a friend in common, and so we were in the same, like, circle.
Guest:So I've been at the same, like, hangout.
Guest:What's her name?
Guest:Stephanie Germanotta.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But never really had, like, one-on-one interaction, and I'm going to assume she doesn't know her.
Marc:That you hung out with her?
Guest:I'm going to assume that, yeah.
Guest:But what was she doing there?
Guest:She was singing?
Guest:She was singing, yeah.
Marc:Do you remember singing her?
Marc:Did you see her singing?
Guest:I remember her performing at the Bitter End.
Marc:You do?
Guest:Yeah, because our connection was this guy, Alex, who was a friend or friendly with the group of guys I was hanging with, and he was her either drummer or guitarist in that band, yeah.
Marc:Oh, in college.
Guest:In college, yeah.
Marc:Now, like, were you, because she's kind of amazing, right?
Marc:She's incredible.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, did you, when you go to see her in college, did you know, did you sense that?
Guest:You were like, there's something incredibly special about this person.
Guest:Like, you do just, you know, sometimes there's people, you're like, oh, I didn't realize they were going to be something.
Guest:But she, her voice alone, it's hard to not be.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:There's something incredibly special here.
Marc:In comedy, it's always sort of like, that guy?
Marc:You never... That is true.
Marc:Rarely do you see the gift.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But do you think that's because we are comedians, so we're bringing something else to it?
Guest:Because I can look at a musician and have that feeling with no attachment to it, but I wonder if... Even an actor, in a way.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, because comedy, you know, comedians have to, some guys get funny.
Marc:I mean, you got to figure it out for yourself.
Marc:I mean, a lot of times, like first five years, you're kind of this unformed thing as a standup and you're kind of doing like your version of somebody else or a number of people or, but it takes a while for people to kind of like step into themselves.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because I think not unlike music only, you know, it's a different skill.
Marc:You know, you got to, it takes a while to become who you are.
Guest:Right.
Marc:To have a voice.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Whereas an actor, you know, you just got to be whatever that is.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You have to be present with what you're given for a script.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you're also, I've always been very struck by that thing.
Guest:People say that when you first start out, you're kind of just imitating the people who you love and admire.
Guest:And it does.
Marc:It takes a while.
Marc:Inadvertently, in a way.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Inadvertently.
Guest:And then you have to kind of lock into your own voice.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:When I was coming up, there was about a dozen Dave Attells around.
Marc:And then there was...
Marc:There was a handful of Hedbergs.
Marc:You saw certain people who had distinct voices ripple through the newbies.
Marc:I have no idea what's going on out there now.
Marc:All I know is there's a lot of them.
Marc:And I'm not sure that they're all funny.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Do you try to keep up with it?
Marc:I can't.
Marc:I mean, I go work.
Marc:I mean, I work at the comedy store, you know, most of the nights I'm home.
Marc:So if people are coming through there, I see them.
Marc:But I'm not going to Mike's.
Marc:Right.
Marc:To see who the comers are, you know?
Marc:Sure, sure.
Marc:And I'm always, and I guess I could watch more specials.
Marc:I don't, and I tend to be a bit of a cranky old guy.
Guest:I get that.
Marc:You know, I'll watch five minutes and be like, nah, not gonna, can't do it.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:Not ready.
Right.
Marc:So what was your first gig coming out of there?
Marc:What did it set you up to do?
Guest:So, yeah, I went to NYU, did film and TV, and then when I graduated, I had been an intern at The Onion.
Marc:What version of that?
Marc:Who was there?
Marc:Who was running the place?
Marc:So it was- Was Hanson still there?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Wait, Todd Hanson?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I was an intern, not for the paper, even though I ended up writing headlines for the paper, but I was an intern for their like web video department.
Marc:So that relatively new department when you were there?
Guest:Yeah, it was pretty new that they were bought by someone who said like, oh, you should start doing web video.
Marc:So that must be right when they were bought.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:So I was an intern there and met some people there.
Guest:And so my first year out of NYU, I was like, I worked at a coffee shop.
Marc:Where?
Marc:What one?
Guest:Grey Dog Coffee.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Where's that?
Marc:Down on?
Guest:It's in a bunch of, when I was there, they had like three locations.
Marc:Is there one in Soho?
Guest:Yeah, there was one in Soho, there was one in West Village.
Marc:You're still there, right?
Guest:Yeah, they have a few.
Guest:They're still there.
Guest:I haven't been in forever.
Guest:But there was one in University Place by Union Square.
Guest:There was one in West Village, one in Chelsea, one in Soho.
Marc:How's the onion work?
Marc:How did that work over there?
Marc:In terms of writing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:For me, I don't know exactly how it worked with the editorial, like people who were on staff, but I was a freelance headline writer, which meant every week you would send in like, I don't know, 25, 35.
Marc:So they're almost like just writing jokes.
Guest:Yeah, just writing jokes.
Marc:And someone else would fill in the text?
Yeah.
Guest:Yes, I think the actual staff writers were the ones writing the stories, whereas freelance writers like myself were just sending in headlines.
Marc:Oh, so that's where it starts.
Marc:It can all start with the headline, then you just fill it in.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And I'm sure those writers were pitching like, oh, this is the headline and the full piece.
Guest:But for me, it was just headlines you would send in every week and then you would get it sent back to you of what they chose or didn't.
Marc:That's exciting.
Yeah.
Guest:It was, because I was a huge Onion fan as a NYU kid, and so it was very exciting.
Marc:When they had the boxes all over New York, and you could just go get a free Onion.
Guest:It was pretty funny, huh?
Guest:Very funny.
Marc:Very, very funny.
Marc:What was the video trip?
Guest:So then the video trip was they hired this guy, Will Graham, to run their web videos, and it was basically kind of the same humor and brand of...
Guest:But done with, you know, under the guise of a news network, a news network.
Marc:I kind of remember that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's what we were going for.
Guest:I kind of remember that.
Marc:I miss everything, though.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so basically I did that.
Guest:I was an intern there.
Guest:I worked at a coffee shop for like a year.
Guest:I was doing a bunch of comedy in different ways.
Guest:I was doing improv and sketch and even trying stand up, which I was very bad at.
Marc:Where were you doing the improv and sketch?
Guest:UCB.
Marc:Taking classes?
Guest:Taking classes at UCB.
Marc:With who?
Guest:Doing, oh man, I'm trying to think of, Bobby Moynihan was my first teacher.
Marc:Oh really?
Marc:He was great.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Wonderful guy.
Guest:Shannon O'Neill.
Guest:But taking classes and then doing like a,
Marc:At the old one, the theater?
Guest:Exactly, the theater in Chelsea.
Guest:And going there a ton.
Marc:The dirty theater.
Guest:Under the grocery store.
Guest:But seeing a ton of comedy there.
Guest:Just so, so much improv and sketch.
Marc:Who was that then?
Marc:Who were the big names?
Guest:Who surfaced out of that period?
Marc:Was it the Krolls and the Aziz?
Guest:Yeah, Kroll, Aziz.
Guest:Jezelnik, I remember seeing a bunch.
Marc:Doing stand-up?
Guest:Yeah, doing stand-up.
Guest:They had a Monday night show called Whiplash.
Guest:Sure, Whiplash is still around.
Marc:Is Whiplash still around?
Marc:I think it might still be around, yeah.
Guest:I would go every Monday.
Guest:I saw Mulaney, I think.
Marc:Sure, yeah.
Guest:But I was such a huge Amy Poehler fan.
Guest:So it being her theater and the chance to go on Sunday night for ASCAT and see her.
Marc:Did you see her?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And Tina.
Guest:Those people were like, that was to me the coolest thing.
Guest:I mean, gosh, 2007.
Guest:I was in college 2004 to 2008.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right.
Marc:And the standup thing you didn't take?
Guest:God, no.
Marc:It's so hard, man.
Marc:You tried, huh?
Guest:It's so hard.
Guest:I give you a lot of credit.
Marc:You gave it a whirl?
Guest:Gave it a whirl.
Guest:It just wasn't, it's so, it was so lonely to me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I really like collaborating.
Guest:I really like working with other people.
Marc:It's a healthier thing.
Marc:And I think your longevity and your odds are better when you collaborate as opposed to just being a stubborn idiot.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Goes it alone.
Marc:You know, it definitely limits your possibilities.
Guest:But I, you know, it's also like some of my favorite comedians like are stand-ups and what they do is so special and important.
Guest:So I commend the art form.
Guest:It is just not for me because it's too hard.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, yeah, I mean, I guess, what was it hard for you exactly?
Marc:Because you probably could write jokes, right?
Guest:Yeah, I was writing.
Guest:It was very, like, one-liner.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:It's just figuring out who's delivering them.
Guest:Yeah, I think what it was, and I really didn't even give it that much of a try.
Guest:I think, like...
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I think the level to probably what it is, is like we're all working out our shit through every part of our life.
Guest:And like, I think growing up the way I did, I was looking more for structure and family and people that way.
Guest:And so even though I do think there is a stand up community and, you know, it's forced upon us.
Guest:A reluctant stand-up community.
Guest:I really think what I needed more than anything was people, this surrogate kind of family, people around me to collaborate with and feel like I was part of a unit that way.
Marc:As opposed to competing.
Guest:Yeah, because I think I had felt on my own for a long time.
Marc:Yeah, I imagine.
Marc:Well, only kid thing is kind of... I always make assumptions about only kids, and I'm always wrong.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:They're selfish.
Guest:They don't know how to share.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:My thing is like, you know, it was always sort of like, were your parents more worried because there was not another one?
Marc:Right.
Marc:And none of them have really said yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I don't think.
Marc:It wasn't my experience.
Marc:Because that would be my thoughts.
Marc:Like, you're it.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Don't die.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:If there's three, I can lose one.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So you did The Onion, then you move on.
Marc:When do you start doing TV stuff?
Guest:So I did The Onion.
Guest:I was an intern, and then they hired me to be an assistant when there were two very short-lived shows, one on IFC and one on Comedy Central that The Onion did.
Guest:Onion News?
Guest:Onion News Network was the IFC one, and Onion Sports Dome was on Comedy Central, and I was the writer's assistant for that.
Marc:So you're in the room typing?
Marc:In the room typing.
Marc:Listening to a bunch of men make jokes?
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Actually, I got to say, all the Onion Sports Dome writers were very... They were all men, don't get me wrong, but they were very sweet, well-behaved men.
Guest:So yeah, I did that.
Guest:And then kind of had an interesting thing happen where, you know, then this becomes like 2010, 2011, and Twitter becomes a place where people are writing jokes, just like little one-liner things, which I was pretty used to doing from, you know, doing Onion headlines.
Marc:This is 2010?
Guest:This is 2010, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So Twitter's been like two years?
Guest:Yeah, I guess.
Marc:Just starting to take off?
Guest:2008, 2009, I'm not sure exactly.
Guest:But it was that time when like Rob Delaney, for example, was hitting huge.
Guest:Doing his weird... Yeah, doing his Twitter jokes.
Guest:And so I started doing that and getting a little bit of attention that way.
Guest:And when The Onion ended, like when those seasons were up, I said, like, I think it's time to move to L.A.
Guest:Like, I want to be a TV writer.
Guest:It feels like even though I love New York, I've been here a while.
Guest:It feels like I have a better chance of becoming a TV writer out in L.A.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I moved to L.A.
Guest:in January of 2011.
Guest:And in, I think, February?
Guest:No, March.
Guest:I get a DM from 80 Miles, the head writer of Late Night with Jimmy Fallon at the time, saying...
Guest:Hey, I like you on Twitter.
Guest:Do you want to submit a packet or whatever?
Guest:I did.
Guest:I got the job.
Marc:Go back to New York.
Guest:I go back to New York three months later from when I packed up.
Marc:80 miles.
Marc:So it was at the beginning of the Fallon run?
Guest:Yeah, it was pretty close to the beginning.
Guest:It was like 2000.
Guest:I think Fallon took over in like 2009.
Guest:So it was like two years into the run.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Who's in the writer's room?
Guest:um at the time it was i'm trying to think of who you would know this guy jeremy bronson was the head monologue writer uh justin shanes a very dear good friend of mine to this day uh eric legend amy ozels patrick borelli i know him yeah yeah yeah he's a boston guy boston guy yeah i love borelli
Marc:So you're on the monologue crew?
Guest:So what happened was they were looking for sketch writers, and I was hired as a sketch writer, and pretty quickly realized I was horrible at sketch writing.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Not horrible, just like- Like what, goofy desk pieces?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Just like games, goofy desk pieces.
Guest:It just wasn't-
Guest:My thing was I kept getting reoriented back to like joke writing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, and so what it was was as a sketch writer, you were you were welcome to submit monologue jokes.
Guest:And so I did that.
Guest:And then I started getting enough on that they were like, well, either I got enough on or I got enough not on on the sketch side that they were like, do you want to switch over and become a monologue writer?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so, yeah, I did.
Marc:So that was it.
Marc:The first big writing job.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was the first big writing job.
Guest:Yeah, late night.
Marc:And how long do you stay there?
Guest:I was there from April 2011 to February 2013.
Guest:So like a little under two years.
Marc:That's very specific joke writing.
Guest:Very specific.
Guest:Monologue joke writing especially.
Marc:So specific.
Marc:And now you're like the co-creator of this big, you know, comedy, you know,
Marc:Show that's about a life.
Marc:I mean, how do you make the jump?
Marc:What's the next step in the evolution from just writing one liners for Fallon to, you know, where do you go next?
Marc:So I guess my question is at some point someone taught you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Or the experience did.
Guest:I think what it was is like I was I was, you know, the late night experience was great because it taught, you know, it's like joke writing boot camp in a way you have to write so many every day.
Guest:But it was also like extremely exhausting.
Marc:I'm limited, too, in a way.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You're writing jokes about the news that day, and that's all you're doing.
Guest:And so I knew that I wanted to write more about characters and people.
Guest:And so I left, and pretty quickly after, I got hired.
Guest:My first narrative job was a show called Hello, Ladies, which you probably wouldn't remember, but it was Stephen Merchant's show on HBO.
Marc:Was it like a one-season thing?
Marc:It was just one season.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, I remember, yeah.
Guest:But that was wonderful because I'm a huge Stephen Merchant fan.
Marc:Got to be a sweet boss.
Guest:So sweet.
Marc:Was Fallon Ari?
Marc:He's sweet too, right?
Marc:Really sweet.
Marc:Really sweet guy.
Marc:I like going on Fallon.
Marc:It's weird.
Marc:Because he got so much flack at first for being so goofy and childlike.
Marc:I know.
Marc:But he's a genuine audience.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:When you go out there, he's just sort of like, are you going to do it?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:That's the thing is like I could see if the truth is like that is Jimmy.
Guest:He's a big kid in that way.
Guest:And so it's like it's authentic to who he is.
Marc:He likes when you do it.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:He's like ready to laugh.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Oh, so Hello Lady.
Guest:Hello Lady.
Guest:So that was a kind of shorter job, but lucky to learn a lot from him.
Marc:Was that where did you write a script?
Guest:I didn't write a script there.
Guest:It was a quick job and I was just a staff writer, so like Lois on the totem pole, so didn't get a script.
Guest:But the place that then I did learn pretty much everything about how to write TV comedy narrative is from Mike Schur on Parks and Rec.
Guest:I went to Parks and Rec and I worked there for the last two seasons.
Guest:And then I worked on The Good Place, Mike Schur's next show, for all four seasons of that.
Marc:Oh, so he liked you.
Yeah.
Guest:I guess.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So Parks and Rec.
Marc:Well, that's a big one.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you're working with Polar.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Polar, who, yeah, was a massive.
Guest:I was very, I have never been more nervous to do anything in my life than start that show because it was in the sixth season and it was my favorite show.
Marc:How many were there?
Guest:There were seven.
Guest:So I was on for the last two.
Guest:You know, Mike Schur was one of my favorite writers.
Guest:I was a massive Harris Whittles fan.
Guest:He was in the room.
Guest:Joe Mandy.
Guest:This writer's room was stacked with people I was massive fans of.
Guest:The cast was stacked with people I was massive fans of.
Guest:Is that where you met Mandy?
Guest:Yeah, that's where I met Mandy.
Marc:And do you give him this job he's got now?
Guest:I was lucky that Mandy came aboard Hacks.
Guest:But yeah, I learned so much about writing TV from Mike and from that room and The Good Place.
Marc:So that was where you wrote your first episodes?
Guest:That's where I wrote my first episode, yeah.
Marc:So you break them in the room, then go out and write them.
Guest:Break them in the room and go out and write them.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And come back and break them again.
Guest:Mm hmm.
Guest:Well, hopefully not.
Guest:Hopefully not.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Hopefully only a couple of tweaks.
Guest:Only some dialogue tweaks and changes.
Guest:But you never.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Sometimes it's a full re-break.
Marc:And what was when did you do the the Broad City stuff?
Guest:So in my time at UCB, in a sketch group at UCB, I was in a sketch group with Lucia and Yellow, who became obviously my co-collaborator and best friend.
Marc:Wow, so you go for that far back.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That far back, yeah, 2007.
Marc:At UCB.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's like it was an offshoot of UCB.
Guest:It was some UCB people who were doing stuff on the side, and I met her doing that, and then I met Paul Downs through her.
Guest:2001?
Guest:2007, 2008.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So we've known each other a very long time.
Guest:And I was kind of just instantly they were the funniest people in the world to me.
Guest:And I just wanted to stay in their orbit.
Guest:So throughout this whole career, you know, Onion and Fallon and that, like they've been, you know, two of my best friends and we always stayed in touch.
Guest:But also like, you know, they they.
Guest:I would sometimes like do, you know, punch up on Paul's like sketch specials or, you know, and then, and then, yes, we worked more closely together on Broad City, which I did in between seasons of Parks and Rec.
Guest:That was my first time doing Broad City was in between season six and seven.
Marc:And Paul was on there?
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Paul's on there.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did he act on that too?
Guest:He did, yeah.
Guest:I remember.
Guest:He plays Trey, the gym trainer.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And then what about with Maria?
Marc:When were you working with Maria?
Guest:Oh, Maria Bamford, who my favorite.
Guest:My favorite.
Marc:My favorite, yeah.
Marc:She's the best.
Guest:So after Parks and Rec ended, my in-between Parks and Rec and Good Place, the show that I worked on was Lady Dynamite for Netflix.
Marc:And how was that as an experience?
Marc:Because, you know, Maria has a specific thing that is specifically Maria.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And Hurwitz, is that who that was?
Marc:Yeah, Mitch Hurwitz.
Marc:Mitch Hurwitz, also a kind of an out there guy, a guy willing to take risks.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So like, I mean, Broad City was interesting and good and new, but Parks and Rec and The Good Place were pretty established shows.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But imagine walking into Lady Dynamite, it was like going into orbit somehow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I think what it is, is like it was kind of this very lovely meeting of minds in that Maria is such a genius, unique brain.
Guest:Mitch is also that, but Mitch is so also, you know, Arrested Development is...
Guest:incredible and he's so good at story and structure so like he is all is has that and then also pam brady um was the showrunner who someone who you know done a ton worked on south park forever very established like person who knows how to make television and so it was a really good collaborative process in that way because i think you know like you're saying maria's
Guest:It's not you don't naturally see Maria stand up as amazing as it is and go, oh, here's how that could be a narrative television show.
Guest:But I think that it's indicative of what I really love about television is that it was just a collaborative process.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:It wasn't just Maria going, here's what I want to do.
Guest:And let's can you write that up for me?
Guest:Thanks.
Guest:Bye.
Guest:It was very all three of their brains at the top of the show and then the writers room working to figure it out.
Marc:That's amazing.
Marc:Yeah, because there was what, three seasons?
Guest:Two seasons.
Guest:I did the first season, and then I left for Good Place.
Guest:But yeah, I did the first season.
Marc:And Good Place, that must have been a fun crew.
Guest:It was very fun.
Marc:I like Kristen a lot.
Guest:Kristen's great.
Guest:Love Kristen.
Marc:And Ted's wild, too.
Guest:really good ted is ted is an incredible actor because you you know he he could be an asshole like his pedigree suggests like hey maybe he'll be a jerk but hey he's earned it and he is the nicest kindest also so like hey did i get that right yeah so open to real actor yeah a real actor like really loved when's the last time you watched body heat
Guest:Oh, my gosh.
Guest:Long time.
Marc:It's crazy to see him.
Guest:I bet.
Guest:I bet.
Marc:This weird dancing D.A.
Marc:He's always dancing around.
Marc:I just wonder whose choice that was.
Guest:I think I must have asked him when I talked to him.
Guest:He's so he's incredible.
Guest:He is such a obvious on screen person is amazing.
Guest:But like off screen, too.
Guest:So wonderful to work with.
Guest:And yeah, that was that was it was another thing where, you know,
Guest:And the lovely thing about my career is like all these people that I've came up with, like my best friend Darcy Carden was also in the cast of that show.
Guest:And so I got to work with her for four years.
Guest:Like it's all these people that I met at UCB or through offshoots of UCB that were all kind of now working together.
Marc:That's the way it works.
Marc:That's the difference between sketch and stand up.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, you must see, I mean, you see, yeah.
Marc:Well, I know the guys, you know, sure, like, you know, but they're still doing stand-up.
Marc:Sure, sure.
Marc:Some of them build shows and whatnot, but in terms of coming up around sketch and improv is that you do kind of meet a variety of people doing different things, you know, acting and writing, and everybody's sort of, you know, engaged in that.
Marc:It's not just this sort of like, you know, I only do me.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:It all has to come through me.
Guest:Right, exactly, yeah.
Marc:So they're kind of available and kind of looking for stuff.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:But so how does, when do you start, whose concept is hacks?
Marc:How does that unfold?
Marc:So, yeah.
Marc:Because I like the show and I shouldn't.
Marc:You know, when I first turned it on, I'm like, let's see if they get the comedy thing right.
Guest:Well, I have to say it is a tremendous compliment that you like it because when we started making the show.
Marc:All you were saying was like, well, Marc Maron.
Guest:Will Marc Maron like this?
Guest:Yeah, that was we put it on the top of the whiteboard.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Make sure Maron likes it.
Guest:But we were like, will stand ups tear this apart?
Guest:Like we we were very like wanted to be deferential to this for it.
Marc:How does it start, though?
Marc:How do you come up with this thing?
Marc:Whose concept?
Guest:So basically, Paul, Lucia, and I had worked together on a bunch of stuff, kept working together, best friends, traveled together, all that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so, Paul was shooting a special for Netflix, a sketch special called The Characters.
Guest:I remember, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, this was in 2015.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And Lucia was directing some and writing with him, and they asked me to come along just for punch-up, and that's kind of what we do.
Guest:I trick them into letting me collaborate with them on everything.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And and so we drive up to he was performing at a monster truck rally in Portland, Maine.
Guest:They he has a he has a character called Jasper Cooch.
Guest:OK.
Guest:And Jasper Cooch was going to kind of MC for the show for the sketch.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:MC this monster truck rally.
Guest:And we're driving up to Maine and we're just kind of talking about... We're talking about female stand-ups particularly that we kind of felt... They're talked about in a different light.
Marc:There's fewer of them.
Guest:There's fewer of them because it was a markedly harder path for them to get famous and known.
Guest:And we just start talking about kind of women like that.
Guest:And then also kind of talking about...
Guest:This thing that happens about like comedy and cool comedy and comedy that people look down on, you know, this idea of like, why is some comedy, you know, why is someone like, for example, Kathy Griffin, who's so funny and so accomplished, but like maybe, you know, someone would look down on what she's done as not as like cool as other comedy.
Marc:It used to be that way with Robin Williams.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that's why I interviewed Robin Williams.
Marc:Because whether I was a huge fan of Robin or not, he's still Robin Williams.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:And to hear these young idiots sort of like, Robin Williams, what a heck.
Marc:I'm like, do you even know what you're fucking saying?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:The guy did everything you want to do and more.
Marc:And you're going to be like, meh.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And so we kind of felt it was a very fertile ground not to just make a show about stand-up because that had been done.
Marc:Had it?
Marc:Well, no.
Yeah.
Marc:Like what?
Marc:What are you thinking?
Marc:Seinfeld?
Guest:But that's not really even a show about stand-up.
Guest:Yeah, Seinfeld.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I guess the point is when you pitch a show, you can't just say it's about a stand-up.
Guest:The thing that was the meat of it that really kind of got us talking and we felt energized by was this idea of this clash between...
Guest:older and younger generations about a lot of things but when it comes to comedy like what is cool what is not why do why does someone who stands on the shoulder of this person then say like and but what they did is hacky and not good sure oh yeah that's just insecurity and jealousy usually
Guest:Usually, yeah.
Guest:But but yeah, so then, you know, we we just start talking about that idea and it kind of stuck in our, you know, I don't know if you have this with ideas or ideas for stand up, but like the things like you have an idea and then sometimes it just drifts away and you never think about it again.
Guest:You don't do it.
Guest:But this one kind of like kept coming around.
Guest:We kept having little.
Guest:We had like an email chain where we would just email each other like, oh, this could be an episode or this could be a joke.
Marc:But I thought that the idea to set it, the reason why I took to it is because you took a very specific stand-up career.
Marc:And it's one that's almost singular.
Marc:It's not the grind.
Marc:It's sort of the putting out to passion.
Marc:It's where a certain type of performer ends up in Vegas.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that's a very specialized life.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Marc:And it enabled you to avoid a lot of the problems that could happen with a stand-up life.
Guest:Right, doing it like a strictly showbiz in Los Angeles.
Marc:Right, because I think getting that thing right, this sort of indulgence and comfort of having a, what do you call it, a residency that goes on forever.
Marc:Because there are a few guys that have that.
Marc:But it's not that many.
Guest:No, no, no.
Marc:So I thought that was like you kind of insulated yourself in the world and were able to explore it without me going like, they don't fucking get coming.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, I'm glad to hear that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I mean, I knew people like, I knew some of the women back in the day, like Brett Butler, for some reason, stands out in my mind.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That that could have been where she ended, you know, like that.
Marc:And the whole backstory, I thought, was kind of genius, too, because I know Caroline Ray very well.
Marc:I mean, there are definitely women of a certain generation.
Marc:Caroline's not as old as Jean, obviously.
Marc:But but where it seemed plausible to me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, it's also the thing of in our show, Deborah, Jean Smart's character, like she goes out there.
Guest:She's proud of what she's built out there.
Guest:But it's also a little bit of a being shunned by the L.A., New York machine and world and kind of insulating yourself in that Vegas world.
Guest:And I've never spoken to a comic who has a residency there.
Guest:I don't know how they would feel.
Guest:But it's interesting to ask yourself, because as far as Deborah, she does have a chip on her shoulder about kind of not being accepted because of her husband.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Well, I mean, I think a lot of those people that get that they're actually true comics.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is what the issue is.
Marc:It's not so much that they failed, but it's just like, you know, they started out as comics.
Marc:They probably had several shots to do other things, and they ended up as comics.
Marc:And then they just go do that thing.
Marc:That is a career of a comic of a certain type.
Guest:Yeah, which it's like it's almost strange that that isn't seen in and of itself as a massive accomplishment.
Guest:You know, like it's this need to like ask comics to do other things is interesting.
Guest:Like, I'm curious how you feel like.
Marc:are you like i am a comic through and that is like that is the thing i want to do at the end of the day and and acting and all the other stuff is kind of yeah as time goes on that's sort of that's true i mean that's what i set out to do and at my core i am that yeah but i'm definitely not i don't even want to play a casino so i'm not that kind of comic uh-huh like i don't want to why don't you want to because i don't i don't feel like my audience they'd rather not go there yep
Marc:So, you know, I mean, I know my audience.
Marc:It's not huge, but it's good.
Marc:And, you know, if I don't have to drag them to the casino, they'll be happier.
Marc:I mean, I could, you know, I could do a little theater.
Marc:I could do a club where they'd feel more comfortable as opposed to being sucked into that world.
Guest:Right.
Marc:I don't love that world, but I get it.
Marc:I get that show business.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But in terms of like, you know, you got George Wallace, you got Brad Garrett.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You got, who else do I know?
Marc:Like, well, Joan Rivers had these, some of them had runs forever.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Carrot Top's been out there for decades, it seems.
Guest:Carrot Top's been a really long time, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So for me, I mean, the question is, I see myself as a comic, but I guess your question is like, you never understood how these comics, like what happens exactly?
Marc:There was a whole model in place.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Where, you know, the big goal was to get a show built around your character.
Guest:On TV.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So like once that didn't work out, then the only other option is, well, you can host something.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:So either you're going to be the center of a show or you're going to host something or you're going to be like a side player.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I guess that's sort of the thing that I have like an aversion to is like the and again, this is just show business, how it works.
Guest:And money is probably the answer just to these things.
Guest:But like, why is this this why is there this like never ending like, well, but what else?
Guest:What else do you want to do?
Guest:Even now having a show, which I'm very proud of, people will say like, well, are you going to do another show?
Guest:Like what's what's are you going to have like a bunch of you're going to produce a bunch of you know, like there's this it's never enough.
Guest:And so it's interesting that as a super successful comic... Who's asking that, though?
Marc:If that's the industry asking that, well, it's not that it's never enough.
Marc:They're just sort of like they want to get a jump on it.
Guest:Maybe.
Guest:Maybe, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, like, you developing anything?
Marc:You working on anything?
Marc:I mean, you know, you're...
Marc:The symbiotic thing that maybe it's not symbiotic, however, the dynamic is between, you know, agents, you know, managers, networks.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And in development.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, it's never just sort of like we're just curious, you know, as a friend, you know, like, what are you working on?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:Well, that's what I mean.
Guest:I guess the answer in the end of the day is money.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah, well, I mean, it's also keeping the ball rolling.
Marc:They get invested, you know, once you're a commodity.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, they want to run money through you.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:But it's interesting is like if a comic was just like, I don't want a show based around me.
Guest:I want to do stand up, you know, like it's...
Marc:Well, there are guys who have done that.
Marc:I mean, you know, Hannibal Buress famously, you know, kind of quit SNL.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I think Mulaney might have, in a way, to do other things and ended up as a stand-up.
Marc:And like Carlin talks about all the time, at some point he realized, like, I can't act.
Guest:Right.
Marc:I'm a comic and I got to figure out how to make this work.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know, but I think it was...
Marc:The business of the 80s, it became this huge business.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Giving comics development deals to try to make, you know, Everybody Loves Ray or Jerry.
Marc:I mean, Brett Butler got a shot.
Marc:Roseanne.
Marc:There were all these shows.
Marc:Tim Allen, they were built around that business.
Marc:her generation yeah deborah's yeah uh generation of comics right yeah and also the other thing is what are you gonna do man i mean how are you gonna like you know there's so many comics they just fall away or they find you how are you gonna retire how are you gonna age out of this thing right how are you gonna save fucking money right right i mean to see the guys that are are are sort of um sentenced to the road out of no choice yeah it's rough man
Guest:Right.
Guest:There's not.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:TV and movies and those opportunities give give you more stability and security.
Marc:If you can keep them going.
Marc:But everyone ages out of that shit.
Marc:So like something like that that happens with the character of Deborah is like it's a real gift.
Marc:I mean, it could afford you the ability to to at least have a second part of your life that isn't desperate.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, I'm just thinking about, like, that episode in this season where she, I don't know where you're at.
Marc:Are they showing them all yet?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Oh, they're all done.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Where she meets a woman that, you know, was doing comedy with her.
Marc:That was such a real thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And, of course, her ego was like that.
Marc:I ruined it.
Marc:But it was such a, you know, that happens, and it's always weird.
Guest:It's always weird, yeah.
Marc:But as I get older, I'm always thrilled to meet somebody that has gotten out and done okay.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, me, too.
Guest:Me, too.
Guest:I feel that like I we talked a lot in the room as we wrote that episode about this feeling of when you meet when you run into someone who quit or stop doing it.
Marc:They must think they're a failure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it's it's like so funny how like the you Deborah's with the way Deborah handle is like, oh, I'm pitying her and then realizing like, no, she's pitying me.
Guest:I'm the pathetic one because I'm desperately doing a stand up show at 430 in the afternoon at a state fair.
Marc:Yeah, the twisted kind of like this idea that we have about show business, you know, about how it's like this revered thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And most people think we're just wasting time.
I know.
Marc:Is that even a real job?
Marc:What do you do?
Marc:I know.
Marc:But I think it speaks to our fear as well.
Marc:Like how because when I started the podcast, I was kind of washed up or not washed yet or something.
Marc:But it wasn't happening.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Though I was still engaged and had done enough.
Marc:It was just sort of how do I take the next step?
Marc:And there's no how do you quit this game?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And it's the same with writing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because like it's all up to you anyways.
Marc:So, you know, either you don't realize you're done, you know, and it becomes sad.
Guest:It's become sad.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Someone else tells you you're done.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you fight that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:There's no way your ego can, you know, takes a very sort of strange and humbled ego to bow out of this thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I know.
Marc:If it's not working out.
Guest:But it is like when you meet someone and they're doing great, why do you think that is that it gives you a sense of relief to me?
Marc:Because I'll tell you what.
Marc:Outside?
Guest:I know what it is for me.
Guest:When they get out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I know what it is.
Guest:What is it?
Guest:For me, it's even though I'm very lucky to do what I do and I'm at a very good moment in my career, it's the fantasy that I could not do it and be okay.
Yeah.
Guest:I think it's the fantasy of the torturous parts of the creative process being free of them, I think is what it is.
Marc:I guess for me, like, I don't.
Marc:In my mind, I didn't have any choices.
Marc:I don't know what I would have done.
Marc:And as you get older, those even get farther away.
Marc:Like whatever the idea is.
Marc:Like I could teach or whatever.
Marc:Like I'm not going to work at a restaurant.
Marc:So those things start to go away.
Marc:And then what I start to realize, the reason that I'm glad they're doing okay is because I think there is...
Marc:priorities that people choose over this kind of like need to do this creative thing.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Like whether they're willing to take the hit on the creative thing to have families or live in a different place or, you know, enjoy life, period.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:And if I can look at them and see that they are actually doing that, I'm like, well, good for you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I always look sort of like, really, though?
Marc:I mean, are you...
Marc:I'm the asshole.
Marc:It's like, you're happy though, huh?
Guest:But that's the sick part of us that makes us keep doing it.
Marc:Yeah, but I like the idea that the one who had gotten out pitied Deborah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because there's so many of them.
Marc:I don't know what happens to a lot of them.
Marc:And at the comedy store, you go to the comedy store and there's just...
Marc:There's eight by tens everywhere of, you know, like going back 50 or 60 years of people that have come through there.
Marc:And every once in a while, one will come in in real life and you'll be like, oh my God.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:That's the guy from the picture.
Guest:To do a set or just to see.
Marc:There's this moment where you're like, wait,
Marc:Where have you been, man?
Marc:And a lot of them find their way, or it might not be great, but they're all right.
Guest:It's also, I think, thinking about it makes me consider luck and how big of a part of that it is and how
Marc:Everything kind of coming together.
Marc:Everything coming together.
Marc:The cosmic timing.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:That's also what I... I used to find it so unfair that it was such a big part of it, and now I just kind of go, well, it's the way the world is.
Marc:I think it's... I don't know if it's just luck, because a lot of times...
Marc:You know, it's it's it's some it's somehow everything kind of coming together.
Marc:It's not lucky, though.
Marc:You make decisions about casting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, I think the luck of it just comes on behalf of somehow an executive made a decision to say, OK, sure.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:It's certainly not just love.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But yet I can speak to.
Guest:number of writers who you know what I mean like this very talented people sure it hasn't happened in one way or another for and that is the part of it that you just go yeah it's it's like you said it's tough business yeah the stars why'd you do it I had no choice right right right because like now I'm sad because when people like if I wanted to start doing comedy what would you say like we're all filled up
Guest:No vacancy.
Guest:Come back later, yeah.
Marc:But I don't even know.
Marc:I'm just old now, you know what I mean?
Marc:There's two or three generations behind me, and they're doing okay, I guess.
Marc:I don't know who they are, a lot of them, but they seem to be doing okay.
Marc:But I don't know.
Marc:The entire business is different.
Marc:What okay means now is something I may never see.
Marc:There could be a guy that just bought his third house doing a very popular thing, and I don't even know how to get it on my phone.
Right.
Guest:Yeah, it's changing.
Guest:It feels like it's changing at lightning speed, too.
Marc:Yeah, it's just watching these actual networks kind of like just desperately hang on.
Marc:It's kind of wild.
Marc:But something like Haxo, it seems popular.
Marc:You're doing good, right?
Marc:In terms of the marketplace anyway.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We hit a lucky thing where it seems like we got critics on our side, but also there's a general audience as well.
Marc:People like it.
Guest:People like it, yeah.
Marc:What's it on?
Guest:It's on HBO Max.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:People have that.
Marc:Is that different than HBO?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:HBO is the more linear, you have to have cable and have HBO.
Marc:But it's also on HBO.
Guest:Our show is on HBO Max, but not HBO.
Guest:Here's the trick.
Guest:HBO shows are on HBO and HBO Max.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:Has that stuck in your craw?
Guest:No, no, no.
Marc:It's probably better if it's on the streaming service.
Marc:Better.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, most people I know, that's how they watch everything HBO anyway.
Marc:I just have Apple TV.
Guest:Right, and then it aggregates everything.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And I get, through Hulu, I get my cable through Hulu.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because I'm not a sports guy.
Marc:There's no reason for me to have a fucking dish on my roof or a wire coming into my house.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But well, that's great.
Marc:And how was casting?
Marc:What was the casting like?
Guest:I mean, so we we we sold the show to HBO Max and we knew that it kind of like lived in, you know, died by who plays Deborah Vance.
Guest:I guess it's a very tricky thing.
Marc:And did you think of comics?
Guest:No, we kind of, I mean, not, you know, not that there aren't many wonderful comics who are also incredible actors, but we knew that the show, we wanted the tone to be kind of equally comedic and dramatic.
Guest:And so to us, we needed an actor that embodied that.
Guest:An actor.
Guest:An actor, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And and so pretty quickly, Jean's name was at the top of the list because she's so skilled at doing both sides of that and center of the script and had fingers crossed for a few days.
Guest:And then we got the word that she wanted to meet about it.
Marc:Oh, great.
Marc:And Hannah, where'd she come from?
Marc:They're both so good.
Marc:They're so funny.
Marc:Everyone's good.
Marc:Paul's good.
Guest:Yeah, our castes were very lucky.
Guest:Basically, it was the opposite of the Gene.
Guest:Gene was like, okay, let's get Gene Smart.
Guest:Thank God we did.
Guest:The search for Ava was a very exhaustive.
Guest:I think I looked one time of all the self tapes we'd received because it was during COVID.
Guest:So he was just taping at home or maybe it was right at the beginning of COVID.
Guest:So some people were auditioning in person.
Guest:But I looked at the packet of all the actors and comedians who had auditioned for Ava.
Guest:And I think I counted and it was like 450.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:So we'd seen.
Guest:And Hannah was just, you know, she was doing standup and she, you know, came into the casting director's office and she did a self tape and Paul Lucci and I are sitting watching, you know, every day we would get 20 tapes that we had to watch and she really stuck out to us.
Guest:um and then kind of continued to in the process you know she comes in for a call back we say oh wow there's really something here and uh and that was kind of how it happened yeah and then once you know once they do their chemistry tests gene and hannah that that was kind of like game over it was they had they had such good instant chemistry oh yeah yeah it was really that's great it was really cool
Marc:And who's the woman that plays Paul's assistant?
Marc:Meg Stalter.
Marc:What's her trick?
Guest:So she kind of became known doing Instagram videos, front-facing camera videos.
Guest:Are you familiar?
Guest:No.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:What does that mean?
Guest:I mean, it just means like you're holding your phone up and you're, you know, turning the camera and then you're just like doing your bit straight to camera that way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she she was crazy funny on those.
Guest:And we knew of her through that.
Guest:And then she she does stand up.
Guest:You know, she's an incredible performer, too.
Guest:And Paul was booked on a show with her and just was like, yeah, Meg is so funny.
Guest:We have to we have to write this for her.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:And that dude who plays Deborah's assistant, the actor?
Guest:Carl Clemens Hopkins, actor, yeah.
Marc:He's very good.
Guest:Yeah, they're theater.
Marc:Theater.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then Mark and Delicato plays Deborah's assistant, Damian.
Guest:He was a child actor, was on Ugly Betty, so someone who's been in the business for a very long time.
Guest:You know, casting is one of those things like it's just weird chemistry.
Guest:Like it's putting these people together.
Guest:And so we feel very lucky.
Marc:And you got an Emmy for the script.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Three.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's great.
Guest:Thanks.
Marc:It's exciting, right?
Guest:It was it was very it was very exciting.
Guest:It was very cool.
Guest:And not honestly, not even though we were nominated, not expected that we would win.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And this season I thought was good.
Marc:I thought it held together.
Marc:I didn't know.
Marc:Like I was I was skeptical coming out of the second season to see her in comedy clubs because I wonder how that went.
Marc:But the I think what's established that the reason it works is that she did have an audience.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, at some point.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And in Vegas.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And still does have a niche audience.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So that was like what really kind of put it over.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That made it work.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So wait, so now what, now are you guys waiting for a pickup or you got one?
Guest:We are waiting to officially hear.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Looking good though, right?
Guest:I think so.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well, I like it and it was great talking to you.
Guest:Very lovely talking to you.
Guest:Thanks for having me.
Yeah.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:That was a good talk.
Marc:I enjoyed it.
Marc:I liked it.
Marc:Season two of Hacks just finished up.
Marc:You can watch both seasons on HBO Max.
Marc:And now I enjoyed this piece of guitar work I just did.
Marc:I'm going to do for you now.
Marc:... ... ...
Guest:guitar solo
Guest:guitar solo
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey and La Fonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.