Episode 1328 - Nicole Holofcener
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it i'm broadcasting awkwardly uh from a hotel in tulsa oklahoma
Marc:awkwardly because the main room of this room was too bouncy i'm a little sensitive to the bounce the sound bounce it's a little better in here so i'm propped up on a chair in front of a dresser in the bedroom of this suite talking to you you all right today on the show i talked to nicole halif center
Marc:uh she's a writer director of films like walking and talking friends with money lovely and amazing uh enough said she also wrote the screenplay for can you ever forgive me with melissa mccarthy and co-wrote the last duel with matt damon and ben affleck she also directed tv shows like parks and wreck inside amy schumer one mississippi and orange is the new black my um
Marc:late girlfriend lynn shelton was a a big fan of nicole holof center always talked about her movies i watched many of her movies i actually had a brief conversation with her about perhaps bringing to life a script that uh lynn and i had been writing for years but uh that never i never really followed through with that i don't know really what to do with that
Marc:It's a there's a pain to it.
Marc:There's something special about it remaining the thing that we did and not necessarily realizing it without her.
Marc:So she'll she'll I will talk to her shortly.
Marc:Yeah, I think I must have come through here at some trek across the country because I think this road, this interstate turns into I-40 at some point, which cuts right into New Mexico.
Marc:I must have drove across Oklahoma through the top of Texas over.
Marc:on into new mexico at some point because oddly i do remember oral roberts university just sitting out there in the middle of what seems like a a plains area i mean there are other buildings there's downtown tulsa but there's this massive tower that i believe belonged to oral roberts university i don't know if it's still called oral roberts university but there's these series of towers that i remembered seeing and i remembered looking up
Marc:So I must have made the trek and I've been here for a day and it's been kind of eventful, I guess.
Marc:But everything's an event when you're in a new place.
Marc:I arrived, got the car from the airport and we drove by massive protests.
Marc:Out in front of City Hall here in Oklahoma because I believe the governor, as of the day before yesterday, enacted some sort of draconian shitshow anti-abortion legislation in preparation for the great pulling of the rug out from under all the women of this country that is poised to happen.
Marc:As fascism creeps in, it's really all we should be talking about and the environment, but it doesn't seem to be the broader cultural discussion.
Marc:It's more of a Kardashian thing or what's going on in the world of fiction.
Marc:I took a lift yesterday out to when I need to go to Whole Foods stock up on some stuff because I immediately got it into my head that everything's got to change.
Marc:Everything's got to change.
Marc:If I'm going to be on the road, I can't just eat like nothing matters.
Marc:I've got to take care of myself.
Marc:I've been in and out of that, taking care of myself on the road, not taking care of myself.
Marc:But I really had shifted into, as of yesterday, I was like, I'm going to do it.
Marc:So I took a car out to a Whole Foods that must have been a half hour away.
Marc:And it was fine.
Marc:But the ride out there, the guy who drove me,
Marc:Was a nice guy, you know, Oklahoma dude.
Marc:And, you know, you get to talking.
Marc:I got to talking.
Marc:They seem real nice.
Marc:He's telling me a little bit about the city.
Marc:We discussed as we were driving that Oral Roberts University, which is apparently the tower, he told me, is supposed to be the height of Noah's Ark.
Marc:And he says, I know the Bible pretty well, and I think that's about right.
Marc:And I'm like, that seems big.
Marc:And he said, yeah, it took 120 years to build that.
Marc:And I said, well, that must have been a few generations.
Marc:He's like, no, you know, they live longer than I'm like, OK.
Marc:Well, then the other question is, how do you keep employers?
Marc:How do you employ people for that long over an arc of 120 years to keep people in the job?
Marc:I'm just assuming that was tricky.
Marc:And he laughed at that, which maybe when I get laughs from people that are truly believers at things that are just about logic.
Marc:It makes me believe that they kind of know that it's kind of bullshit, but I don't know.
Marc:There's no reason to push it, but I'm always happy when I get the laugh from the from the deep believers because it was logical and it made sense in modern terms that that's fucking ridiculous.
Marc:But nonetheless, I brought up the fact that they built an arc, I think in Kentucky somewhere at the Creation Museum, wherever that is.
Marc:He said, yeah, he'd heard about that.
Marc:But we were just talking.
Marc:It was a varied conversation.
Marc:And we talked a lot about barbecue, sort of got into, I asked how everybody fared here with the pandemic and if things were bouncing back.
Marc:And he said, well, I don't know.
Marc:We didn't really, there wasn't that big of a shift because we didn't stop.
Marc:And then as time, as the conversation went on, he said he might have had it a month or so ago, the new one, but he wasn't sure that he hadn't been vaxxed and that the people he worked with all during the pandemic, no one got it and no one was wearing masks until the mandate.
Marc:But there was no tone of anger or anything.
Marc:There was just a matter of factness to it.
Marc:And this guy seemed like a reasonably nice guy.
Marc:And then, you know, we got to talking, you know, about, you know, just how I kind of said, well, it looks like we're going to be dealing with this stuff.
Marc:And then just matter of fact, we brought up he just matter of fact, we brought up a meeting that took place with the CDC, the W.D.H.O.
Marc:and the global leaders in Wuhan about about pandemic issues.
Marc:management you know within you know weeks of uh the pandemic starting suggesting that it was some sort of conspiracy that they couldn't possibly have been meeting just to discuss the possibility of something that uh was bound to happen but but okay it was and i said to him i said well you know it seems that you know as
Marc:viral strains bacterial strains become more antibiotic resistant that uh you know these things are going to happen that these these diseases these viruses and bacterias are going to evolve and adapt not unlike any other organism and they're going to get worse and more persistent and
Marc:And he goes, exactly, you know, like that MRSA and like a couple other things we talked about.
Marc:But again, the logic was there, but not applied to the possibility that the pandemic was just a pandemic and not some sort of global conspiracy meant to do what I'm not sure.
Marc:Kill everybody.
Marc:But then we talked about food some more.
Marc:And it was one of those things that you come away from where you're like, well, that guy was a nice guy.
Marc:And it was actually I hadn't had a conversation with a guy that has profoundly different beliefs than I do about everything.
Marc:But, you know, we kind of met somewhere around, you know, brisket and chicken.
Marc:But it didn't feel volatile.
Marc:And I don't think any progress was made.
Marc:But he was an okay human with a pretty wrong-minded way of looking at the world.
Marc:okay so i'm here shooting an episode of reservation dogs which i'm thrilled about and last night i went out with uh sterling harjo the producer and creator and uh bobby wilson the guy who wrote my episode and uh brit hensel and we went to a a beautiful little restaurant called lowood here in tulsa it's great so that's what i'm here doing i'm gonna shoot some reservation dogs and
Marc:It's so fucked up, man.
Marc:I'm talking to Sterling, and he told me, and I knew this, that Sam Kennison's grave is here, and I owe Kennison something.
Marc:There's possibility for full closure, because many of you don't know the story, and if I just tell you this, it's gonna sound weird and out of context without you knowing the story, but when I was a younger person, and I was a doorman at the comedy store, I had a falling out with Kennison,
Marc:After spending hours and hours hanging out with him, doing his coke and listening to him ramble on about the universe.
Marc:But I had a big falling out with him and it started with him pissing on my bed because I let a Satanist hang out in there.
Marc:So Sam wouldn't kick his ass.
Marc:Long story.
Marc:So Sam won't kick his ass.
Marc:But nonetheless, he peed on my bed and I never slept in it again since.
Marc:And I shortly left Los Angeles in a in a fury of cocaine psychosis.
Marc:Now, the the point is, is that I always sort of made a promise to myself that I would piss on Kennison's grave to get closure.
Marc:I've since sort of altered that fantasy because I've, I've let it go and I've processed it, but Sterling brought it up to me last night that Kenison's grave is here.
Marc:And I'm like, Holy shit, I'm supposed to pee on that.
Marc:And, and it's not, I mean, it's not that I didn't learn things from Sam, but it just, it just, it's closure.
Marc:It's payback as a bitch.
Marc:And if anyone was, uh, you know, a fan and a, a, um, supporter of revenge on a almost satanic, uh,
Marc:it was sam and i i think that ultimately he would appreciate it um and he's got it coming to some degree but like i said i've let it go but now i got to sort of like sit with it so that's sort of happening that might happen i'll let you know if uh if i do uh find a way to go pee on kennison's grave and believe me this is just a debt it's it's not it's not it's not even personal anymore it's just something that you know i need i need to do i might need to do it we'll see
Marc:Yeah, I got to really process this.
Marc:You know, is it a good thing for me to go pee on a grave?
Marc:Do I need to do that?
Marc:Have I grown past that?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:So right now, Nicole Hollis center.
Marc:I just reached out to her because I was thinking about her because I was thinking about Lynn.
Marc:And then Michaela Watkins brought it up to me.
Marc:Michaela called me and said she was looking to cast something in a new movie and I might be good for it.
Marc:So Michaela mentioned my name.
Marc:And then I thought, I got to call her or reach out to see if she wants to do the show.
Marc:Yeah, so this is me talking to Nicole Howell Center who did not cast me in her new movie, but that's okay.
Marc:You know, things happen.
Marc:I might have been perfect for it.
Marc:Doesn't matter.
Marc:That kind of stuff doesn't matter in show business.
Marc:And I, you know, I turned down stuff too.
Marc:Who knows what could have happened that didn't.
Marc:But I do know that I talked to Nicole Howell Center and this is that.
Guest:I can tell you, I don't breathe.
Marc:What do you mean you don't breathe?
Guest:Like when I'm doing one of these and I can tell because I have this on.
Guest:I hold my breath when I talk.
Marc:I hold my breath a lot.
Marc:Me too.
Marc:You do?
Guest:All day.
Guest:And at night I have apnea.
Marc:You have apnea?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Do you wear a machine?
Guest:No, I wear a really attractive blue mouth guard.
Marc:With a tube in it?
Guest:No, it just juts your bottom forward like this.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:It opens up.
Marc:I hold my breath.
Marc:I find I hold my breath when I talk because I think if I breathe properly, I'd probably cry all the time.
Marc:I don't know what your problem is.
Guest:No, I think the same thing.
Guest:I've been tempted to take a breathing class, but I'm kind of afraid.
Marc:Move the mic in.
Guest:Are you recording me already?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:What do you mean?
Marc:What do you...
Guest:I thought you'd say, okay, go.
Marc:What do you mean?
Marc:Like there would be an intro?
Marc:No.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Don't be nervous.
Marc:It's just a conversation.
Marc:How's your headset?
Marc:Fine?
Guest:Yeah, it's fine.
Guest:Am I good for you?
Marc:Yeah, you sound good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I just, I'm weird.
Marc:I never had allergies, but I have them now.
Marc:In the last few days, I've been a little weird.
Marc:Do you have them?
Guest:I do.
Marc:Were you fucked up for the last couple of days?
Guest:No, kind of normal.
Marc:Really?
Guest:I have tissue boxes in every corner of my house.
Marc:So you wouldn't know if the last two days were bad or any worse than last week?
Guest:Right, probably not.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah, no.
Marc:I usually don't do anything for them, but I had this Flonase leftover, like prescription Flonase.
Guest:That's good.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I have one of those.
Marc:And a Zyrtec.
Guest:I take a Zyrtec every day.
Marc:You do?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And it helps?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, so that's why I think all of a sudden I sound so clear to myself.
Guest:Good.
Marc:So breathing.
Guest:Yeah, so I'll talk and then occasionally I'll have to... You realize I haven't breathed?
Guest:Yep.
Marc:So why don't you take a breathing class?
Guest:I'm afraid.
Marc:Afraid of what, crying?
Guest:Like what you said, I'll just never be able to get up again.
Marc:Because that's... I'll pass out.
Marc:Because when I think about just letting it go... Yeah.
Marc:What's all that emotion, right?
Marc:And I've had that, I think it's always been that way.
Marc:I've always been a breath holder.
Guest:Me too.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Are you a mouth breather?
Guest:No.
Marc:I am.
Marc:So I guess I win.
Guest:You do, you're worse.
Guest:I mean, I love to sing, but when I sing, my throat closes up in the middle of a song.
Guest:I can't go past...
Marc:Oh, you can feel it?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I've been singing in public lately, like in front of people at Largo and stuff to overcome the fear of that vulnerability.
Marc:It's a vulnerability thing, the choking and the not breathing.
Guest:Isn't it actually like a real thing that you need training to learn how to open up these pipes?
Marc:No.
Marc:Can you sing at home alone without it closing up on you?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:That.
Marc:Right?
Guest:True.
Marc:So, no, it's all fear-based and self-consciousness.
Marc:And to me, there's something, nothing's more vulnerable than singing for some reason.
Marc:I don't know why that is.
Guest:I don't feel that way.
Marc:Oh, I do.
Marc:It's terrifying to me.
Guest:Are you a good singer?
Marc:No, I'm okay.
Guest:Sing me a tune.
Marc:No, I'm okay.
Marc:I mean, I can do it, but the last time I sang, we tried to get through Jealous Guy by John Lennon, and I did it in rehearsal, and I know I can do it, but I choked during performing it, and I couldn't hit the notes right, and I was so annoyed, but I knew the audience knew me, and they were willing.
Marc:I just said, look, I can't go home.
Marc:not knowing i didn't hit that note i'll be too it'd be awful so we're gonna gonna do it again yeah good and they loved it i'm sure sure yeah yeah they like when people fail yeah yeah i used to sing with lynn actually a bit she liked to sing a lot and she was very no i watched her birthday video oh oh yeah i was singing all those songs she was great
Marc:Yeah, and I sent you that script that her and I wrote over five years.
Marc:I'm sorry I didn't get back to you, but I couldn't follow through on it yet or something.
Marc:But I like the story.
Guest:You were with her for five years?
Marc:We knew each other a long time.
Marc:I mean, we knew each other since she did...
Marc:the podcast, right?
Marc:So like 2015 or 16, I can't remember what it was.
Marc:And that's when we sort of started engaging.
Marc:And one of the ways we would spend time together is to write that fucking script.
Marc:An excuse, you mean.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Over the years.
Marc:And it got very close to getting near done.
Marc:And I still picture it and I still have a lot of ideas about how that thing can work and where it would go.
Marc:But it's pretty close.
Marc:The story's all there.
Marc:And then somebody put it in my head that I should finish it with somebody else.
Marc:And she's such a fan of yours.
Marc:So I thought, well, I'm going to send it to you.
Marc:And then I did.
Marc:And, you know, I think you liked it, right?
Guest:I did like it very much.
Guest:I was happy to proceed.
Guest:I mean, I felt honored in many ways.
Marc:Well, it's still here.
Marc:It's still possible.
Guest:If you're willing to go for it again.
Guest:Maybe it's tough.
Marc:I don't know if it's tough.
Marc:It's about... I know that the issue with her and I was just that I would make her laugh all the time, right?
Marc:And I don't know that...
Marc:what's in there in that script when I read it over again how much of the comedy needs to be there and I think that I mean I don't know your approach to comedy I think is different I don't know that Lynn really did too many comedies other than that last one which was kind of wacky in watching some of your stuff like I guess the reason that I'm interested to talk outside of you know where you come from in the background is like you seem to have a you know you have a point of view that's evolving and you have specific things that you want to achieve with movies
Guest:Right?
Guest:I suppose.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Unconsciously.
Marc:Well, I guess it's just relative to you is like wherever you're at in your life, right?
Guest:Pretty much.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But where did you come from?
Guest:New York City.
Marc:So you're a New York City person?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:You grew up there?
Guest:I did until I was 12.
Guest:And then my family moved to Westwood in Los Angeles.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But my formative years, at least certain ones, were in New York for sure.
Marc:In the city?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's so rare to meet people that grew up in New York City.
Marc:It's exciting.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So your family's in the arts, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:All of them have been.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Like what?
Marc:How?
Marc:What did your mom do?
Guest:Well, my mom was not until later.
Guest:She became a set decorator later in life and did a bunch of wonderful films.
Marc:Yeah, like which ones?
Guest:Sophie's Choice.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Radio Days.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So she became a good set decorator.
Guest:Yeah, she did.
Guest:She was very talented.
Marc:Where did that come from, though?
Marc:What did she do when you were growing up?
Guest:Well, she was a secretary and worked at a travel agency.
Guest:She was an actress when she was younger, actually.
Guest:In movies?
Guest:No, plays and television when she was really young.
Marc:Like child actor?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then older and then a little bit older.
Guest:And she hung out with James Dean.
Guest:He asked her out on a date.
Marc:Did she go?
Guest:No, she was afraid of him.
Guest:She said, this guy's too creepy for me.
Marc:Creepy James Dean.
Guest:Creepy.
Guest:He was creepy.
Guest:And she told her best friend, you know, he's really cool, but he's creepy.
Guest:And then her best friend ended up being with him for a long time.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Because she liked creepy.
Marc:Creepy and weird.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Intense and creepy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Some people like intense and creepy.
Guest:I think I do.
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:I think I've always been intense, but the creepy is I shifted a bit.
Marc:I'm not as creepy as I used to be.
Marc:I don't think I was ever creepy.
Marc:I think I was angry, as off-putting.
Marc:All right, so, okay, but I'm no James Dean.
Marc:So your mom didn't go out with James Dean?
Guest:No, she didn't.
Guest:She married my father, Larry Holofsen, instead.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What's that guy do?
Guest:At that time, he was a lyricist, and he booked the Merv Griffin Show, and he wrote for your show of shows.
Marc:He was a booker on the Merv Griffin Show?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Isn't that funny?
Marc:Are your show shows with Danny Simon and all those guys?
Marc:No kidding.
Guest:I don't think for very long, but he did.
Guest:And he wrote lyrics to some theater and acted.
Guest:And throughout his life, he became a sculptor.
Guest:I would say that sculpting was his most successful endeavor ever.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He has this big sculpture in London on Bond Street of Churchill and Roosevelt sitting on a bench, life size.
Guest:And it's where tourists go and sit between them and take pictures.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So it's been photographed more than anything he's ever done.
Guest:Yes, absolutely.
Guest:First thing it'll come up.
Marc:That's interesting, though, like that people just I like the idea that people like when they switch jobs, they don't ever think of like doing something mundane or with more security.
Guest:No, no, I'm going to try something harder.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I'm that way, too, but I think it's an artistic sentiment.
Marc:I don't think that that normal people would never do that.
Marc:Whatever normal is.
Guest:I know.
Guest:No, sometimes I think I can't make movies anymore.
Guest:I'm just going to become an actress.
Guest:Like, that's wise.
Marc:Yeah, good choice.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You can go read for the people that cast your movies.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Just throw me in something.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Is really, that's your plan B in your mind?
Guest:No, I couldn't act.
Guest:I can't.
Guest:I mean, I think I can act, but I'm too timid to act.
Marc:Timid?
Marc:Stage fright, yeah.
Marc:You're afraid you're not going to breathe or your throat's going to close up?
Guest:That, and I can't remember my own lines when I'm watching my own scene being filmed.
Marc:I think the trick, and I'm no genius actor, but I think that if you can not be self-conscious while you're doing it in the middle of all those people, then that's like 70% of it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's amazing to me.
Guest:Amazing.
Marc:I don't know how it happens where you can just lock in.
Guest:I don't either.
Guest:And people do plays, three-hour plays.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that's a different thing, the memorizing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's different.
Guest:It's like another species to me.
Marc:Okay, so your parents, that's what they did.
Guest:That's what they did.
Guest:And then, yeah, my mom ended up marrying my stepfather.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Who produced movies.
Marc:What was that guy's name?
Guest:Charlie Joffe.
Marc:Charlie Joffe.
Marc:I remember seeing Charlie Joffe.
Marc:What?
Marc:He was up there...
Marc:Well, I had a weird meeting with Jack Rollins once.
Guest:Oh, tell me.
Marc:But I remember meeting Charlie Jaffe in Montreal at the Montreal Comedy Festival.
Marc:It must have been in the 90s.
Marc:And I remember he had some sort of protege, a woman who was running his office or something.
Marc:I just remember there was someone who worked for his production company.
Marc:Do you know who I'm talking about?
Marc:No.
Marc:That was sort of a big deal.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:But he was a big presence, that guy.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And he was sort of holding court, and it was very intimidating.
Guest:It was, yeah.
Marc:Well, you know that name from all the movies.
Guest:Right.
Marc:You know, Rollins and Jaffe.
Marc:It was just like, if you were a Woody Allen fan, when you could be, it was just always there.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And he managed a lot of comics.
Marc:Yeah, a lot of that.
Marc:Dick Cavett he managed, right?
Marc:He managed Woody.
Marc:He managed- Robin Williams.
Marc:Oh, yeah, that's right.
Marc:For a while.
Guest:Billy Crystal.
Oh.
Guest:so what was it like how old do you when you when you when he she married that guy i was eight so he was like your stepdad yeah for real he was like another dad uh at least for a while they split up when i was 17 but stayed close and i stayed close with him and he you know put me through grad school and college and um really was a you know a terrific mentor yeah well so you were around that show business that's real show business
Guest:I was.
Marc:Your whole life.
Guest:Well, yeah, that period, sure.
Marc:Well, what was that like?
Marc:What was the scene?
Marc:I mean, were people at the house?
Guest:There was people at the house.
Guest:There was a lot of coke.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:A lot of coke.
Marc:No kidding?
Marc:Just around?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was the 80s.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And the adults then would just do it in public.
Marc:Like, I remember I had a cousin who worked for Yves Saint Laurent.
Marc:Like, he's an accountant.
Marc:And we were at some birthday party for my grandfather.
Marc:And he's like, I'd do a blow at dessert.
Marc:Like, it was nothing.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Well, people wore spoons around their necks.
Guest:Little vials.
Marc:It was nothing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:so there was a lot of coke and i felt unfortunately i always felt too young to really have the kind of fun i wanted to have with these people yeah because you know i was 18 or something 17 and i thought i and i wanted to be 25 so i could hang with robin as an adult right and all these people as an adult but i was robin williams he was around yeah oh yeah young robin
Guest:He was sweet, really sweet, and I was privileged to see him do stand-up in the beginning of his career.
Marc:In New York or here?
Marc:Both.
Guest:Probably more here.
Marc:Comedy store.
Marc:Yeah, that's where he came down.
Marc:Okay, so you were how old when they moved out here?
Guest:I was 12 when we moved to Los Angeles.
Marc:Joppy lived out here?
Guest:No, we all lived in New York, and then he moved out here to do more managing, and he wanted to produce TV and movies here, not just Woody.
Marc:right so that's so that's why you moved because he moved yeah so so that was what year like 1972 oh my god why so you look like you saw the beginning of all of it like you would have seen robin at the comedy store in like the late 70s yes exactly right so that's all that's when all that started when those stars were beginning to happen
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, it was thrilling.
Guest:It was thrilling.
Marc:Oh, I can't believe it.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:You know, I got to meet, you know, people I really wanted to meet.
Guest:That was the best part.
Marc:When you were like 18 or 19 or 20?
Guest:Yeah, maybe a little younger.
Guest:Like I remember meeting John Travolta at like the, I don't remember.
Guest:Maybe I was like 17, you know.
Guest:And he got me jobs as a production assistant, maybe one or two.
Marc:Yeah, on what?
Marc:Those are formative.
Guest:No kidding.
Guest:Find out what you're good at and what you're not good at.
Marc:Did you?
Guest:Oh, I was such a bad PA.
Marc:It's the worst because it's humiliating.
Guest:Very.
Guest:And when you're the producer's kid or you know you got your job through nepotism, they run you around.
Guest:But also, I'm too logical.
Guest:They would say, go on that corner and stop traffic.
Guest:And there was no traffic.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You just got to go stand there.
Guest:So just go stand there.
Guest:And I'd say, well, why?
Guest:There's no traffic.
Guest:And it's like, just shut up and go stand there.
Guest:So the logic of it made me furious.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And did you, because of that, do you treat your PAs better than that?
Guest:Oh, so nice.
Guest:I know their names.
Guest:I offer them coffee.
Guest:Sometimes I walk by and they won't look up, and it's like, come on, guys.
Guest:I'm not, you know, I don't know who, Scorsese or whoever won't have eye contact.
Marc:So what were you PA on?
Guest:I was a PA on one of Woody's lighter films, a midsummer night sex comedy.
Guest:I was a PA or apprentice editor on Hannah and her sisters.
Guest:apprentice editor so you that was sort of what you were heading for uh maybe yeah i was just sinking dailies and stuff like that but at that point i knew i wanted to do something in film but i thought it could be production design or editing it didn't even occur to me to do or to write yeah i always loved writing what so what was like how much did like rollins and joffie have to do with the movies at that point like really you know in terms of later in the you know like
Guest:Later, not so much.
Marc:Did you learn anything about production at that time?
Marc:Did you understand how it was all structured and all that?
Guest:No.
Guest:And I wasn't interested either.
Guest:I'm still not very interested.
Marc:He's just like, who's going to give me money?
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:And why aren't they?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:What do I got to do?
Guest:So...
Marc:Is this where you learned or did you go to school?
Marc:I went to school.
Guest:Here?
Guest:No, I went to many undergraduate schools.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It took me six years to get a bachelor's degree.
Marc:It took me five.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Only because I just wanted to stay one more year so I could drink more and do drugs.
Guest:That's a good reason.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:I was just confused.
Marc:I mean, I was confused, too.
Guest:Yes, but faster.
Marc:Much faster.
Guest:You were confused for five.
Marc:I was confused for six.
Marc:Where'd you go?
Marc:Which one did you go?
Guest:I started at Sonoma State.
Guest:Then I went to San Francisco State.
Guest:Then I went to NYU and graduated.
Marc:From NYU?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I started taking film classes and graduated with a terrible, terrible short film that was painful to make.
Guest:And I thought, I can't do this.
Marc:What was that?
Guest:It was actually about me and my sister visiting my father in the country on weekends.
Guest:It was called Every Other Weekend and a Month in the Summer.
Guest:And it was...
Guest:It was bad, and I had kind of a panic attack the entire time I was making it.
Guest:And so I thought, well, I can't do this.
Marc:So it was a concern that because of the reasons why you were having it, you wouldn't be able to do it direct?
Marc:Correct.
Marc:Why were you having it?
Marc:Just because everything was so...
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I was overwhelmed.
Guest:I just wasn't ready.
Guest:And I also felt like I needed to know everything.
Guest:And the DP who shot my short, you know, was a jerk and, you know, an asshole DP guy.
Marc:But I was just overwhelmed.
Marc:You had an asshole DP.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Oh, they start young.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I always went before I started making any television or being part of it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I thought that the director had to do know everything.
Marc:And I guess it's really relative to how you delegate, you know, responsibility and who you trust.
Marc:I mean, but I imagine you do have to have a handle on most things.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:But eventually you learn how to trust your DP or trust, you know, the other people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I know what I want and I know what I don't want.
Guest:And that is very helpful.
Marc:Well, what were you gunning for at the beginning?
Marc:Because I watched some of the first movie, the first feature, Walking and Talking, recently.
Marc:I mean, when you were doing a short, what was it you were trying to do and who was your influences?
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:You don't know?
Guest:I can't answer any of that.
Marc:Any of it, even what the story was just, you just picked a story.
Guest:I picked this really personal story about my sister and I visiting my father and the horrible routine.
Guest:Oh, and I had a stepmother who disliked my sister and myself dearly.
Guest:And so it was about her kind of making our visit to my dad really crummy.
Marc:So in some ways, it was sort of a template for- Totally.
Marc:For everything you've done.
Guest:Everything I've done.
Guest:And in fact, my stepmother had started to talk about her sex life and how with my father and that was very disappointing.
Guest:And I was like nine.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it was traumatic and that's what the movie was about.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Isn't it weird that there's no like my father before he got the brain problem, whatever the hell is happening.
Marc:There's just no there.
Marc:There's no statute.
Marc:The statute of limitations runs out at some point when people get a certain age as to what they can and can't tell their kids.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And it's a very it's a very jarring thing because they don't realize it.
Marc:And that's sort of where that joke that I've been working on about, you know, gaslighting and parenting come from.
Marc:Is that like when they divulge this stuff, if I had known that.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I could have made entirely different decisions for myself.
Marc:Like what?
Marc:Well, I mean, look, it's not about decisions, but like I knew on some level.
Marc:I think, you know, after a certain point that my dad was a philandering, you know, guy.
Marc:You know, and I've had my own issues with that.
Marc:But like, you know, stuff that he has told me, I'm like, holy shit.
Marc:I mean, you know, this has been going on for that long.
Marc:And all that stuff, all the stuff that they hid from you is implanted in you.
Marc:The behavior.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Like, they can't hide, you know.
Guest:Well, I don't have to know about their sex life for it to impact me and my sex life.
Right.
Marc:no you don't have to know but like it does like what that did was shine some light on my father's character right right so you know I knew he was you know bipolar I knew he was selfish but you know some of the stuff he told me I'm like oh you're a fucking monster right
Guest:No wonder I felt bad all the time.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Could give a shit.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I have kids and sometimes they'll ask me a question and without thinking I'll just answer it and then they'll look on their face.
Marc:How old are they?
Guest:Like, they're 24.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:So slowly, you know, they're asking me things about private things.
Marc:When they were kids?
Guest:They started when...
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:About when they were kids.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Stuff like when we were.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or before.
Guest:I mean, I'm divorced.
Guest:So they're finding things out about our marriage that, you know, that never occurred to them to ask.
Guest:And sometimes I just blurt out an answer and I see their face.
Guest:It was like they were not ready to hear that answer.
Marc:Right.
Guest:What was I thinking?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, they're adults.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:They are.
Guest:And they're different from one another.
Guest:Like one asks more questions than the other often.
Guest:So they're different people.
Marc:So like I like.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So when did you start?
Marc:When did you overcome whatever?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What's interesting to me in terms of looking at the stuff you've done is like I think the last time I talked to you, you were going or just back from writing with Ben Affleck and.
Marc:Matt Damon, were you just going to Ireland?
Marc:I don't remember when I sent you that script.
Marc:Were you back?
Marc:Because it was middle of COVID, but it was.
Guest:I have no idea.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But like, you know, you did that thing and I love that movie.
Guest:You did?
Marc:I did.
Marc:And I don't think they could have made it without you.
Guest:Right.
Guest:In terms of your point of view, they also couldn't have made it.
Marc:Well, I get that.
Marc:But still, like, you know, I don't know that you could trust those two guys to conceive of a woman's point of view or Ridley.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know, you know, so like any of that I have to assume was your input.
Marc:Yes, it was.
Marc:So then when I look at that, which it should have been a big movie, but I think I don't know what the fuck happened.
Marc:It just tanked.
Marc:I know.
Marc:But I talked to Ridley about it and he just I think they didn't know how to sell it.
Marc:And, you know, he was like, I don't remember what he said, but he didn't think that was it.
Marc:But because it's a nice grown up movie.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That kind of retrofit some real issues that are relevant now.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Into into an amazingly, you know, timeless story.
Guest:I couldn't imagine it would be anything but a success, really.
Guest:And it got good reviews.
Marc:Yeah, I just really think people didn't know what to do with it.
Marc:They saw a coming attraction and they were like, maybe I'm done with the Game of Thrones business.
Marc:I don't know what that is.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But it's a very sophisticated movie.
Marc:So when I saw that and then kind of looking back through how you've handled your career in terms of doing your own movies but writing and directing on other people's stuff and directing, obviously, it's a job you do sometimes.
Guest:yes for tv yeah yeah and that's just the way you got to be yeah in order to keep you know doing what you want to do practicing and making money i mean there's a those are good things to to direct sure how did you overcome the fear at first um well i graduated and i thought okay i'm just gonna be a writer i'm gonna try to be a writer so i was writing a bunch of scripts and then i met these people uh who had gone to columbia film school yeah through some friends and they
Guest:what a great school it was, and they were working writers, and they suggested I go there.
Guest:And so I did.
Guest:And as soon as I got there, it was the right place, and you have to direct videos of your work and other people's work.
Guest:It's part of the screenwriting program, too.
Guest:And I found myself to be good at it and confident.
Guest:It was smaller and more manageable.
Marc:Videos as a way to learn?
Guest:Yeah, short films.
Guest:Yeah, like scenes.
Marc:Instead of like doing 16 millimeter and processing.
Guest:A $20,000 16 millimeter student film that sucked.
Guest:I mean, what a waste of everything.
Marc:So videos is almost.
Guest:Oh, no, that wasn't that one.
Marc:That much money.
Guest:But yeah.
Guest:So practice.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:I just needed a lot of practice.
Guest:And I found that I was good and that I loved doing it.
Guest:And I had some great teachers.
Guest:And so I made a short film coming out of there.
Marc:And you like that one?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That one was called It's Richard I Love.
Marc:And what was that about?
Guest:It was about Cynthia Nixon starting it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:A girl who loves this guy who just didn't give a shit about her.
Guest:Not that, you know, that's ever happened to me or anything.
Guest:and keith gordon played the guy and it was in new york and it was really fun really fun and it turned out pretty well um and it you know it got me i think got me an agent yeah and i so i just then i wrote a few scripts that got nowhere for other things or for myself uh-huh
Marc:Movies, whole movies.
Guest:Yeah, but they didn't go anywhere.
Guest:And then I wrote Walking and Talking, and I met Ted Hope, who was starring Good Machine in New York, which was the place to be if you want to make an independent film.
Marc:Was this the beginning of independent films, kind of?
Guest:In that era.
Marc:Was this during the boom?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was.
Guest:Like, they'd just done Ed Byrne's movie and Hal Hartley's movies.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:It was like Living in Oblivion.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Tom DiCillo.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And Hal Hartley was the... What was his first movie?
Guest:Trust and Unbelievable Truth with... Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Adrienne Shelley.
Guest:Adrienne Shelley.
Marc:Who I went to college with briefly.
Guest:You did?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:She was lovely, huh?
Marc:I knew her husband, yeah, and I knew her a little bit.
Marc:Terrible.
Marc:Jesus, terrible story.
Marc:Unreal.
Marc:So that was sort of like the middle of the wave of independent filmmaking.
Guest:Yeah, I was really in the right place at the right time.
Guest:It also took me six years to make the movie after I'd written it and met with Ted.
Marc:For Walking and Talking?
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:And, well, it seems like that some of that stuff is in there, the unrequited love business and understanding relationships.
Marc:And it seems like that's, but that, like I said before, it seems to be sort of a through line through all the movies.
Marc:I don't guess we ever really nail it, do we?
Guest:I hope not because I'd have no material.
Marc:So when you did that, because you definitely, I try to watch what choices directors make and how they handle actors, but it seems like the way you write is very, it's a naturalistic thing and it takes a certain type of actor to be able to do it.
Marc:It's really kind of amazing the difference between a standard mainstream movie and a movie that someone has a little more freedom to do.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And that, like, there's scenes in that one, in walking and talking, that are very, they're very naturalistic.
Marc:And I imagine, were they improv'd any of them?
Guest:Probably not.
Guest:I mean, well, I wouldn't say a whole scene, but a line here or two.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I mean, Liev was great at it.
Guest:And Keener was.
Guest:Everybody was.
Guest:So if some actor says a terrific line while we're shooting, I keep it.
Guest:That's great.
Guest:I mean, I gave them the freedom to do that.
Guest:But basically stick to the script.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Otherwise it would be chaos.
Marc:And was that?
Marc:Well, no one knew who Keener was, right?
Yeah.
Guest:um she'd been in johnny suede and living in oblivion yeah but so but walking talking i think was she kind of broke out of that one right that was like a big maybe i can't take credit for discovering her he had been in the day trippers greg mottola's movie oh yeah i just watched that recently too it's good it is good yeah so i saw him in that i went to school with greg i was friends with greg and um
Marc:We're at Columbia?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:He was one of them.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What's he doing now?
Marc:Didn't he do a big movie recently?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think, I don't know.
Guest:Right now he's in Portugal posting pictures.
Guest:I don't know if he's on vacation or not.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But yeah, he's made some great stuff.
Marc:And Anne H. Super bad.
Guest:Anne H. Yeah.
Marc:I haven't talked to Anne H. No, but I mean like she was in that movie.
Marc:That was kind of early in her trip too, right?
Yeah.
Guest:Very.
Guest:She was kind of more of an unknown.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I had to cast people who were kind of up and coming.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I'd seen Kevin Corrigan in The Slums of Beverly Hills.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Well, he's like the New York indie actor guy.
Marc:Like, he kind of shows up.
Marc:He's ever present for about a decade.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he was in, I put him in Please Give, too.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Guest:Yeah, he's unique.
Marc:So what happened?
Marc:So you put this movie together.
Marc:It takes you six years to make.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Now, is there any input?
Marc:Do you show it to your stepdad?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I remember he was very critical because it had a lot of explicit sex in it, more than what ended up in the film.
Guest:I mean, I rewrote it essentially for six years.
Guest:So he didn't like that.
Guest:He didn't like reading that.
Guest:Otherwise, he...
Guest:You know, when he saw the crappy film I made at NYU, he did say, I think you should think about doing something else, Nick.
Guest:He did.
Guest:And then by the time I made Walking and Talking, he was a full believer.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Completely, you know, supportive.
Marc:Supportive?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So what happens then?
Marc:Because I don't really understand.
Marc:Like, I know...
Marc:I kind of know how indie film works, but you've done a lot of them.
Marc:So after walking and talking, were there people willing to bank on you?
Guest:Barely.
Marc:Barely.
Guest:I mean, it did well.
Guest:It got great reviews.
Guest:But yeah, it was really hard to get financing for my second movie.
Guest:It didn't take six years.
Marc:Did you have it written already?
Guest:Lovely and amazing?
Marc:No.
Guest:No, definitely not.
Guest:I do one script at a time like every four years.
Guest:And that's okay?
Guest:Well, no.
Guest:But I am who I am.
Marc:You have some acceptance around that?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, it's not broken.
Guest:I wish that I had made and will make a lot more movies, but I don't see myself doing that.
Marc:Why?
Marc:Why?
Guest:Because I don't have a lot of ideas that I want to see through, that I want to live with for three years.
Marc:What determines that?
Marc:Just a feeling?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, if I think I have an idea, I'll sort of sort through my notes and write, and then if it's boring or stupid, I give it up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So...
Guest:Yeah, and I just don't have inspiring ideas very often.
Marc:Well, I mean, did walking and talking at least, it seems like that got you in the door with directing television, right?
Guest:Walking and talking, yeah, it did everything that I wanted it to do.
Guest:I got...
Guest:Right after that, my first directing television job was Sex and the City, and only because they saw Walking and Talking.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:I got some residual checks yesterday from Sex and the City.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Still, yeah.
Marc:Are they still like meaty or no?
Guest:Mostly like 300, 400, sometimes more.
Marc:That's nice.
Guest:It's fantastic.
Marc:Yeah, it's great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, that's a long time ago.
Marc:Well, then I imagine that being able to do that and move kind of job to job a bit with TV directing, it takes the pressure off finding that idea to do the next movie.
Guest:It does.
Guest:And it gives me practice because I direct movies so infrequently.
Guest:It's like, oh, do I remember how to talk to an actor?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Well, is it giving you practice?
Marc:Did you have to sort of frame it like that way at some point?
Marc:Did you have to convince yourself that it's giving you practice as opposed to standing in the way of you making another movie?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, this is good practice for my next film whenever that might be.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you always think about making a movie.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:You don't think like, oh, I'm just going to direct television.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:But if that ends up happening to me in my old age, I'll take it.
Marc:But Lovely and Amazing was worth the wait.
Marc:It was a bigger movie.
Guest:Actually, I got less money for Lovely and Amazing.
Marc:Didn't it get more attention?
Guest:Yes, definitely.
Guest:It definitely got more attention.
Guest:Right, that was Lionsgate.
Guest:And it was still only like a million dollars.
Guest:But I think it's a more mature effort.
Marc:And like Jake Gyllenhaal was like 12 years old?
Guest:Yeah, he was 20.
Guest:He turned 21 right around.
Marc:That's crazy how young he looks.
Guest:Yeah, because he is young.
Marc:I know.
Guest:They all are.
Marc:Keener's in that one, too.
Guest:Yeah, and Emily Mortimer.
Marc:Dermot Mulroney.
Guest:Dermot's in it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And Clark Gregg.
Marc:And that guy that I like, that James LaGrosse guy.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Like what happened to that guy?
Marc:I thought it was like seeing him like in Drugstore Cowboy.
Marc:I thought he was amazing.
Marc:He was.
Marc:And then he'd show up here and there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then it just, I don't know.
Guest:He's a really good actor.
Guest:He is.
Guest:And a really nice guy.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Who knows?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It turns out when you ask that about people now, they've done a million things and you just didn't.
Guest:You have no idea.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Everyone's doing a million things.
Guest:Or they're just enjoying their lives and not necessarily making movies or whatever.
Guest:I mean, he's a country boy.
Marc:How about Dorff coming out of nowhere?
Marc:Stephen Dorff.
Marc:I mean, he's not in your movie, but you just reminded me.
Marc:He's out there in Malibu.
Marc:He loves his life.
Marc:And then he's like, right now, after whatever the hell he's been through or wherever his career went, he's doing the best work of his entire life.
Marc:In what?
Marc:in that uh in the true detective oh i didn't see it oh my god he's amazing wow and i just great fucking amazing like i was watching it i'm like who is that and they're like it's dorf i'm like what and i had to interview him but i just watched uh old old henry did you see old henry no with tim blake nelson that weird little western no dwarfs in that is a heavy and he's great wow i'm sorry i don't know excited about people should see that old henry movie okay i love uh tim blake nelson
Marc:It's a classic story.
Marc:It's a classic Western story based on a classic Western story in a way.
Marc:But if you don't know the twist, it's worth seeing.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I don't know it, so don't tell me.
Marc:You should watch it.
Marc:Do you like Westerns?
Guest:No.
Marc:Okay, good.
Marc:You'll love it then.
Guest:No country for old men.
Guest:That's my idea of Western.
Marc:That was the extent.
Marc:What do you like?
Marc:What are the movies that were like, oh, my God?
Marc:Slasher films.
Marc:Come on.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:I mean, so many movies.
Guest:I mean, Spike Jonze's movies and Charlie Kaufman's movies.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I grew up loving Woody and Albert Brooks.
Guest:Albert.
Guest:And James Brooks.
Marc:James Brooks, yeah.
Guest:You know.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Hal Ashby is one of my favorites.
Guest:I met him once.
Guest:I made a fool out of myself.
Marc:What happened?
Marc:When was this?
Guest:Oh, I was really young.
Guest:And I was just, I think I was maybe 18 years old.
Guest:And I didn't know what he looked like.
Guest:And Harold and Maude, of course, was my favorite movie.
Guest:And I was introduced to him.
Guest:And this is Hal Ashby.
Guest:And I just lost my shit.
Guest:You're?
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:I think I pounded the table he was sitting at.
Guest:But he was fine.
Marc:I've done that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Haven't we all?
Marc:Yeah, I think so.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I did it last week with Keith Richards.
Marc:The second time.
Marc:Really?
Marc:The second time I interviewed him.
Marc:This was on Zoom and I was still like, oh my God.
Guest:How was he with that?
Guest:It's great.
Guest:He just kind of smirked.
Guest:He's great.
Marc:A lot of these guys who are such kind of menacing presences are just like turning into sweet old men.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Finally.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's the best thing that can happen.
Guest:I don't know how you can interview all the people you do and keep your wits about you.
Marc:What do you mean?
Guest:Well, not that you're not.
Marc:You mean not lose my shit?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like that.
Marc:I mean, if you listen to the first interview, I kind of lost my shit, but I was still, you know, engaging.
Marc:You could speak.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I was in this one, too.
Marc:I was very obsessed with this hat, which to the point, you know, his people got mad at me.
Guest:Like stop talking about the hat?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And I was like, Keith, where do you get these beanies?
Marc:Because he's like, he looks great right now.
Marc:And I don't know why I think that I, you know, when I was a kid, I wanted to have Keith Richards guitar.
Marc:But at this point, he's like, what is he 80?
Marc:And he's wearing a beanie.
Marc:And I'm like, I got to get a Keith beanie.
Guest:He got him at Urban Outfitters like everybody else.
Marc:No, it turns out he didn't.
Marc:He turns out, of course, he got him at a place that sells $400 cashmere beanies.
Marc:And they sent him a case.
Marc:I don't know how it worked for him, but I had to pay for two.
Guest:You paid $800 for some lame beanies.
Marc:I did.
Marc:And they're not even here yet.
Marc:I can't even tell you if they're the right ones.
Marc:I just hope they're the right ones.
Marc:They look good.
Marc:Even if I don't wear them.
Marc:Well, I had to.
Marc:Because I shared it with the world, my obsession with the beanie.
Marc:So I have to follow through, whether I want to or not.
Marc:Even though the world will be like, what the fuck is wrong with you?
Marc:You spend $800.
Guest:Spoiled idiot.
Marc:I got no kids.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I got no debt.
Marc:Can I buy a beanie?
Guest:You're allowed.
Marc:This is exciting.
Marc:On Fridays when I do interviews, we have a little extra texture with the leaf blower.
Guest:Which is illegal.
Marc:Is it?
Marc:yeah but we need our leaf blowers oh the gas ones are illegal now i think they can use electric can't they oh i don't know isn't that the shift we're supposed to be making out of gas into electric and chargeable i can't stand it anymore nicole i can't stand it which the leaf blowers oh because when you live in a neighborhood like this every day yeah every day there's one right there you poor thing do you have that where you live
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I want my leaves to go away.
Guest:Otherwise, I'd just be.
Marc:I want my leaves to go away, but I think they should all be done on the same day.
Marc:Like there should be two days a week where everyone can do that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So at least you have like one or two days a week.
Guest:You can just split.
Marc:Well, just be quiet.
Marc:Just have a quiet morning.
Marc:Is that so hard?
Guest:That's what happens when you live in a nice, leafy neighborhood.
Marc:Okay, fine.
Marc:You're saying I have luxury problems.
Marc:I should shut the fuck up.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So, speaking of luxury problems, like Friends with Money, I do remember that movie very well.
Guest:Oh, good.
Marc:And it was one of those movies where it's like, you know, some people are really going to be bothered by this movie because of the way these people live.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Which is like we were talking about.
Marc:And what were you, when you made that movie with those women.
Guest:I was like thinking.
Marc:Well, no, but I mean, were you like, these are my friends?
Marc:I'm going to be honest.
Yeah.
Guest:Oh, wait, what do you mean?
Marc:This is the world I live in?
Guest:Oh, yeah, because I also am I feel are I am representing their their faults and their limitations.
Guest:And, you know, that's what it's about.
Guest:um so it was also you know not at a time where i think we have to be much much more conscious about the movies we make right now and the audience for them i don't think i could make that movie now why a bunch of white people in a white people problem movie and yeah i mean i'm about to make another one um and i think you know that's not been easy because of that because of the climate right now
Marc:Scott Kahn was good.
Guest:Wasn't he?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He's funny.
Marc:He is funny.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I liked working with him a lot.
Guest:He was very game.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, everyone... I had a really great experience on that movie.
Marc:It was a great cast.
Marc:It was Aniston and... Oh, yeah.
Marc:Joan Cusack.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Francis.
Guest:I got to work with my idols, so I was just pinching myself.
Guest:I mean, I'd been chasing Joan Cusack since Working Girl.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:And I couldn't get the agent to even...
Marc:How does that work?
Marc:Like when you want somebody, how does it like, what do you, what kind of, how often do you get them?
Marc:I mean, obviously Keener you've been working with forever.
Marc:But Frances McDormand?
Guest:Just, I guess that script.
Guest:I mean, or they liked, I mean, the movie I made before it was lovely and amazing.
Guest:So I guess if they saw that and they liked it and, you know, good female parts don't come around.
Marc:I think also, like, in that movie, like, in the Friends of Money thing, I mean, there must be some element of, like, purging, you know, or owning the lifestyle that we kind of live.
Guest:Yeah, well, I think all my movies have that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think, you know, they're so autobiographical that I'm willing to show my shallow life.
Guest:And I guess... Is it shallow?
Guest:Um...
Guest:In some ways.
Guest:I mean, it's definitely self-absorbed.
Guest:And that my movies are about my own self-absorption and my friends and the world.
Guest:But I'm curious about so many things in human behavior that I hope I'm also expressing that.
Guest:The depth of human behavior in people you might think of as shallow or...
Marc:Just by getting to the core of humanness is really the thing that kind of undermines shallowness.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:That we're all people.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I did make fun of that in Friends with Money with John Cusack and Greg Gurman, who are the rich couple.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And they have great sex and they smell good and they have no problems.
Guest:And I let that be.
Guest:Like, maybe that is, you know, what it's like.
Guest:Of course, it's not.
Guest:But it was fun.
Guest:No, no, of course not.
Marc:I have real problems with that.
Marc:I don't think we're all narcissists, but we're certainly self-centered.
Marc:And how much of what we think other people are doing or living is something we're just making up all the time.
Guest:Say that again?
Guest:I'm sorry.
Marc:We make up other people's lives.
Marc:You know, we make assumptions based on nothing.
Marc:I do it all the fucking time.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I guess there's really no way you can know unless you really know those people.
Marc:Or you don't know how fragile the dynamic is.
Marc:Like even in that first movie, walking, talking with those two girls.
Marc:I mean, those two women as they become women.
Marc:And also the way you establish stuff when people are kids I think is very good.
Marc:I like that screenplay you wrote for that horrifying story about the two girls that killed a black baby.
Guest:Oh, thank you.
Marc:Holy shit.
Marc:But dealing with young people and dealing with the impact of those moments is kind of crazy.
Marc:But my point is, you don't even know your best friends, really.
Guest:Sure you do.
Marc:You know what they do and you know how they react to you, but there's always room for surprise.
Guest:Always, absolutely.
Guest:And they're never exactly what you want them to be at all times.
Marc:Do you have best friends?
Marc:Yeah, I do.
Marc:For a long time?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Very, very lucky.
Guest:Yeah, since high school and college, we're still very close.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And some more college.
Guest:And I've made some new friends, which is amazing to me, too.
Guest:Yeah, kind of.
Marc:Huh.
Guest:Isn't that weird?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:A little bit.
Guest:And it's really nice.
Marc:It always seems to take a little more effort than I'm... It does.
Marc:And I always get very disappointed when, sometimes, where, you know, like, okay, we're going to try to be friends, and you have that one friend date, and then it's just sort of like, I guess it didn't work out.
Guest:Guess you didn't like me that much.
Marc:Well, there's a kid that I do comedy with who went on a hike with me once.
Marc:And we work together at the comedy store all the time.
Marc:And sometimes I bring him up and I say, this guy, we tried to be friends, but it didn't happen.
Guest:What does he say?
Marc:Well, he's got a good sense of humor.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He's kind of an asshole, but a funny asshole.
Marc:That's funny.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's harder to make friends when you're older, but they actually do what I do.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And that is really nice.
Guest:I didn't always have so many friends in the movie business, but it's really nice to have people to complain to on the same level.
Marc:In this world that we live in.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And learn from.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How do you make friends, you know, later in life?
Marc:Just change your expectations?
Guest:Lower the bar?
Marc:Yeah, not lower the bar, but like it seems like the ones that are older and been through everything with you are like, they know you when you're like, I need to, we gotta, you know, and that tends to go away, doesn't it?
Guest:Yes, it does.
Guest:No, actually, not really.
Guest:How come you didn't?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The new friends, I don't know, they kind of materialized naturally, met them, you know, with mutual friends.
Guest:And it's like, hey, should we get together, which is a little scary.
Guest:And you get together and actually it was kind of nice.
Guest:And then when do we stop talking about work?
Guest:When do we start talking about personal things?
Guest:And then we do.
Guest:And then you realize you're friends.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I, my boundaries don't enable me to like lately.
Marc:I just like certain people have just, I get exhausted and I don't want to fucking.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I mean, I'd be your friend, but you live too far away.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I don't like, I don't want to be my friend.
Marc:No, I do want to be your friends, but like, but I don't think I'm clear as to, you know, like I have like one or two people where I'm like, I can see me properly and it's a relief, but I can't break any.
Marc:people in.
Guest:I understand breaking new people.
Guest:It's pretty funny.
Marc:I used to do a bit about that, about how, like, you know, who are these people with many friends?
Marc:All you need are two.
Marc:You need the main guy and the guy you go to when you drain the main guy.
Guest:That's pretty true.
Guest:I'm terrified that they're going to die before me, and I don't know what I'm going to do, but we don't have to go there.
Marc:What a ridiculous fucking life.
Marc:All right, so when you decide to write a movie,
Marc:Or direct?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Have you directed whole movies that weren't yours?
Guest:No.
Guest:I almost did.
Guest:I almost did a couple of times.
Guest:Well, I was going to direct several movies.
Guest:Every Secret Thing, that one about the dead baby, I was going to direct.
Marc:It felt like you should have directed it.
Guest:Well, thanks.
Guest:But I wrote the script intending to direct it and I couldn't nail the script.
Guest:I couldn't nail it.
Marc:What do you mean?
Guest:There was just a character in it that I couldn't solve.
Marc:Which one?
Guest:The detective, the main person who... Not Elizabeth Banks?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:And I also... That was the main reason.
Guest:But I think I was also a little afraid to deal with the dead baby and the screaming baby.
Guest:My kids were younger in the editing room, like living with that.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that was an obstacle.
Marc:But what do you mean you couldn't nail the character?
Marc:You were afraid you couldn't direct it because you didn't quite understand it yet?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You were able to write it?
Guest:No, I couldn't write her well.
Marc:Well, then who wrote it?
Guest:Well, I guess Amy Berg took over.
Marc:But did she change the script?
Guest:Probably some, yeah.
Guest:And, you know, I was going to direct what became 50-50.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I was going to direct it, and I worked with the writer, and it was really fun.
Guest:All these guys, they were great.
Guest:And I thought it was going to be shot in L.A., and they decided to shoot it in Vancouver.
Guest:And part of the reason why I could do it was because it was in L.A.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:At the time, one of my sons was in a new school and was getting bullied.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And I couldn't leave him.
Guest:I just couldn't leave him.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How old was that kid?
Guest:It was like the beginning of middle school, 12 or something.
Marc:Well, that's good that you prioritized your family over the career.
Guest:I know, I'm a fool, but I would do it again.
Guest:And, you know, they weren't happy, but it turned out really well.
Marc:Well, let me ask you, because, you know, I know that Lynn, being my point of reference with, you know, people who are directing movies and independent directors, like...
Marc:There is a point where she really needed to do it her way.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And to the point where the one experience I think she had when she was given a bigger movie was not great.
Guest:What was that?
Marc:Laggies.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:And I think it was a little difficult with all the people who had power.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Even in directing some television, I think it was similar to that.
Marc:So, to the point where, like, I really wonder, because clearly when she died, you know, things were turning and it was going to be a bigger career.
Marc:But I really wonder how it would have panned out if someone said, we direct this Marvel movie.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What would you do?
Guest:I wouldn't do it.
Guest:I'd be crazy, but I wouldn't do it.
Guest:Well, because, I don't know, life's too short.
Marc:Yeah, and when you direct a movie, it's a couple years at least.
Marc:It's a lot.
Guest:And to direct a Marvel movie would, I imagine, be a lot of ulcers, a lot of stomach and knots.
Marc:And also, how do you represent your point of view?
Marc:I mean, that's what you're used to, making movies.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:No, it would be some people, I guess, feel excited by that challenge.
Guest:I wouldn't feel excited by that particular challenge.
Marc:Well, what about any big movie?
Guest:Well, yeah, if I think it's great, sure.
Guest:And if I could make a lot of money one day, that would be really nice.
Guest:But it hasn't happened.
Guest:Yeah, it hasn't happened.
Marc:Well, I'd like to please give.
Marc:I don't remember enough said if I saw it.
Marc:Sorry.
Guest:You should see enough said Julia Louis-Dreyfus and James.
Marc:Oh, no, I did see it.
Marc:I did.
Marc:It was the last one before he died.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know what I remember about that movie is, you know, that, you know, clearly James was trying to, you know, do something other than Tony Soprano.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:And, you know, trying and just I remember his performance very specifically and realizing that he was a great actor with an amazing range.
Marc:And it was kind of interesting to see how vulnerable he could get.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Cool.
Marc:So I remember all that.
Marc:That's a good takeaway.
Marc:And you did that.
Guest:I did, but he was ready.
Guest:He was there.
Guest:I didn't have to do much.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:No.
Marc:It seemed like he died before it came out, didn't it?
Guest:Yes, he did.
Guest:He died right after he did some ADR, and that was the only time he saw scenes from the movie, and he was really hard on himself and didn't want to see any cuts.
Guest:And when he did see some pieces in ADR, I don't know, he hung his head.
Guest:He was like, oh, God, I would look like such a pussy.
Guest:What?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:He was so afraid I was going to make him.
Guest:And I was like, yeah, your character's a pussy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we all love him.
Guest:And get over it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But then, yeah, he died like a couple of weeks after that.
Marc:Fucking brutal, man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Really sad.
Guest:Really, really sad.
Marc:And Julia is like fucking amazing.
Guest:She is amazing.
Guest:She's going to be in my next movie.
Marc:What's it about?
Marc:You don't have to tell if it's going to ruin it for you.
Guest:ruin it for me well i mean like well it's a lot of family dynamics it's comedy drama and it's a lot about um how to support those you love without having to lie to them um yeah i mean is that possible
Guest:No.
Marc:Spoiler alert.
Guest:And if you oversupport your kid, your kid wants to prove you wrong.
Guest:It's just stuff like that.
Guest:Families and relationships.
Marc:But this is where all these things live with your characters in movies that there's this fundamental unsolvable tension to relationship.
Guest:Mm hmm.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Isn't there?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But like but and I guess that even though you know that I'm saying you as people, you still try to control or, you know, have a handle on it.
Marc:It's very hard to let go.
Guest:I mean, I don't solve anything.
Guest:It's really just exploring how and why and can we.
Guest:And because I don't have any answers.
Guest:And, you know, people will say, oh, now that you wrote about that, are you over it?
Guest:And it's like, not at all.
Guest:Not in the least.
Marc:Because you have to deal with it every day on some level if there's other people involved in your life.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the Land of Steady Habits, that was like the outer edges of what people can go through and handle.
Guest:Pretty bad.
Guest:Really sad.
Guest:You didn't like it?
Marc:I loved it.
Guest:Oh, you did?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:That guy, it's Mendelssohn, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He's like something else, that guy.
Guest:He's genius.
Guest:How's he doing?
Guest:I just love him.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:you gotta call him i i sent him a text yeah and he sent me a text right back yeah and i was so happy to get it yeah and then it promptly went out of my head you forgot and now it's just hanging there yeah how long has it been a couple of weeks oh a week yeah i do that all the time i love him you do i do too i'm like so happy to hear from them and then
Marc:Well, some part of your brain registers it and it closes the file.
Guest:Right.
Marc:You're like, oh, yeah.
Marc:And it's just like, I did that.
Marc:And then you realize, I probably could have said something.
Guest:I could have responded.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:And it has nothing to do with how important that person is to me.
Guest:That's what's scary because I adore him.
Marc:Every few days, maybe once a week, you've got to scroll through your text and answer.
Guest:And not remember when you're on air exactly.
Marc:Well, it's nice.
Marc:It was a real moment.
Marc:It was.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was a good moment.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Off script.
Marc:Off personal narrative.
Marc:Otherwise, this is all scripted.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Personal script.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I thought that movie was great.
Marc:I liked it.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Because it just kept getting worse and worse.
Yeah.
Guest:It did.
Guest:It did.
Guest:I really loved the book.
Guest:And people were like, why do you want to make this movie?
Guest:And it's just, I don't know.
Guest:It was a good book.
Guest:It was a good story.
Marc:You liked adapting books?
Guest:I liked adapting that one.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I liked adapting Can You Ever Forgive Me?
Marc:Did you want to direct that?
Guest:I was going to direct that.
Marc:What happened with that one?
Marc:Family trauma?
Guest:You don't know?
Guest:You didn't look it up?
Marc:No, no.
Marc:I'm not great at research.
Marc:Sorry.
Guest:When you interviewed Obama, I bet you did some research.
Marc:Yeah, but I hate doing that.
Marc:That made it a very regimented interview.
Marc:I'd rather miss things and have a real conversation than know too much going in.
Guest:I've heard you say that, that I didn't want to read your book before...
Marc:Yeah, I mean, the only time I'll read books is if I don't know about the person or I'm not sure they can talk.
Marc:And the problem with reading people's books is you'll lead them and you already know all the answers.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:So, but like, it's not books with you.
Marc:But I mean, I don't, was there some sort of controversy?
Guest:It was horrible.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:I mean, I adapted it to direct and cast it.
Guest:Julianne Moore.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Was going to be in it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I love her.
Guest:And we started working on the character and we got...
Guest:it we didn't see eye to eye you and julianne more yeah she wanted um very much to do it her way yeah and to sort of keep me out of it which i was unaccustomed to right and i you know i don't know if she works that way always but that was my experience and um so literally five days before shoot i mean everything was done yeah um i i let her go
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You fired Julianne Moore because you knew it wouldn't work with what you had pictured it to be.
Guest:Correct.
Guest:And I didn't think it was going to be any fun.
Guest:Like I had a knot in my stomach.
Marc:And you wanted to tell a story.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And socially, I adored her.
Guest:Yeah, I did.
Guest:But I felt like this is going to be a battle.
Guest:And I think she felt it, too, but was willing to go ahead.
Marc:And I had a curiosity that, you know, that now that we all know how McCarthy did it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What was it about?
Marc:So different.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, McCarthy's got this built in, you know, comedy engine that that makes even her most pathetic and craven emotional impulses, you know, not so menacing.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:More lovable.
Guest:I think that with Julie, she would have been closer to Lee Israel in terms of that.
Guest:But, you know, she's incredibly talented actor.
Guest:I don't change my mind about that.
Guest:It just was not a good fit.
Marc:And then what happened?
Guest:And then Searchlight, who made the movie, said, do you want to push it for two weeks and see if you can recast it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I tried.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And no one was available that I wanted.
Guest:And they said, do you want to come back in a year and try it over?
Guest:And I felt like I'd made the movie.
Guest:I mean, when you're five days away from shooting, every silverware, the kind of clothes, the shoes, the locations, everything has been chosen.
Guest:And I was exhausted and burnt.
Guest:And I said no.
Guest:So...
Guest:Of course, when Marielle Heller made such a great movie and incredibly successful, what was I thinking?
Guest:But, you know, she did a great job and I got a lot of attention and Academy Award nomination for it.
Guest:And, you know, sadly, it's kind of the movie people will say to me that they love the most of my films.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But I didn't direct it.
Guest:So it's kind of a mix.
Marc:You can take half ownership.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:It's a little bittersweet.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But do you do you regret it?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It would have been a different film.
Marc:So who are you thinking?
Guest:Oh, no, I don't.
Guest:Lots of people who were about to go on vacation or, you know, couldn't do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Interesting.
Marc:So but you are you happy with the the way it.
Guest:Very much.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, there's certain things I would have done differently, but I think it was really good.
Guest:Obviously, people love that movie.
Marc:Now, what do you think is your strong suit as a director?
Marc:Because what do you do?
Marc:Do you work pretty close with actors?
Marc:I mean...
Guest:Yeah, I don't do a ton of rehearsal.
Guest:No, yeah.
Guest:I like it fresh and I give them freedom to tell me what they think stinks and to say something better if they want to.
Guest:I think I'm a pretty disarming person and I think that it helps them to feel safe, to try things and be stupid and I respect them so much for that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, you know, I think it starts with the writing.
Guest:I think that I don't ask actors generally to behave in a way that isn't natural or human.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And when you know, like, I guess the trick to directing is when you do a take, it is just somehow in your gut, you know, when it's the right one.
Marc:I mean, that seems to be the whole thing.
Marc:And it's a unique, especially when you do movies like you do, where it's all sort of about
Marc:the uh uh emotional honesty of any given scene right it's it's not about whether you know the pyrotechnics worked or the car blew up at the right time no that would be so boring it's like easier to read yeah
Guest:Did their chin quiver?
Guest:Did their eyes tear up?
Guest:Or did they surprise me in some fantastic way?
Guest:I mean, if you cast really good actors and the script is pretty good, I feel like my job is pretty much done.
Marc:You can just feel it set.
Marc:If you see a take, you're like, ugh.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's thrilling, too, because- I bet.
Guest:You know, having James Gandolfini and Julia in my living room reading my scenes, I'm kind of looking over my shoulder like, yeah, who's the director here?
Marc:It's interesting, too, because with those two people in particular that they were kind of like, you know, anytime Julia has to tone it down, it's like that's the job.
Marc:you know, for her.
Marc:Because, like, see, she's so naturally, like, naturally comedically genius, right?
Marc:So anytime she has to almost become more real, you know, that is, you know, that's where you really see, like, what's, you know, what's going on in there, right?
Marc:So it's a real performance.
Marc:And then with him having to, like, not... Want to kill someone.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Not be, yeah.
Marc:That was great, yeah.
Guest:She, but Julia is a pretty serious person.
Guest:Right.
Marc:I have talked to her.
Marc:Yeah, I can see that.
Marc:But like there's no one more naturally comedically gifted than that person.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And having her on the set just cracking me up and cracking everybody up.
Marc:I can't even understand it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Her and like Will Ferrell.
Marc:It's like they can turn it on and you're like, what is that?
Marc:And they can turn it off.
Marc:Totally.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Turn it off.
Guest:Like be a regular human being.
Guest:And that's how when I met with Julia to do that, you know, we had lunch.
Guest:And at first I was like, but she's Elaine.
Guest:She's Elaine.
Guest:You know, how can I get past that?
Guest:And it took about 10 seconds.
Guest:We were talking about our kids.
Marc:What's she doing in this next one?
Marc:Is she going to be hilarious?
Marc:Is she going to be slapsticky?
Guest:uh slapsticky no i don't think there is slapstick in this one but plenty of room for her to be a fool plenty um in a good way oh good yeah vulnerable insecure oh good uh you know uh kind of a mess now can we just talk about the last duel though for a minute or two because i really love the movie and i think people should see the movie
Guest:Good.
Guest:I think people should too.
Guest:I wish they would.
Guest:I think it's on a streaming service.
Marc:How do you get that call from those guys to be like, you know, hey, we need a lady.
Guest:That's pretty much it.
Yeah.
Guest:I'll be your lady.
Guest:Can you write girl stuff?
Guest:I knew Ben a bit, and so I got this email from him, which I did occasionally, but it was an email that just made my head spin off.
Guest:I couldn't believe I was, do you want to write something with me and Matt?
Guest:And I don't know if they said what it was at the time, but of course I said yes.
Guest:And then they said what it was, and I went and met with them and said, I don't know how to do this.
Guest:Really?
Guest:What do I know?
Guest:I don't know how to speak like this.
Guest:And they said, neither do we.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:And they showed me their work.
Guest:And I was like, yeah, I can do that.
Guest:Whatever they're doing, I can do that.
Guest:And it became not easy, but I got used to speaking like that and learning how to...
Marc:But was the job primarily her story from her point of view?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They wrote the first two.
Guest:So I started writing scenes for her.
Guest:I'd send them the scenes.
Guest:Some things would make that change, and it would make their scenes change.
Guest:And eventually, it became a collaboration of all of us.
Guest:I mean, I didn't really touch the battle scenes.
Guest:But the marriage scenes in all three parts, you know, we all had a part in them.
Guest:But I wrote, you know, a lot of Marguerite's story or all of it.
Guest:And they gave me notes that were really helpful.
Marc:Whose idea were the shoes and how the shoes came off or whether she took them off or they fell off?
Guest:Ridley.
Guest:That wasn't in the script.
Marc:That was a pretty.
Guest:That was good.
Marc:Pretty good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's kind of good.
Marc:He is.
Marc:And he believes that.
Yeah.
Guest:No kidding.
Guest:No kidding.
Guest:I think he wanted to kill me while I was on the set.
Marc:You did?
Marc:Why?
Guest:A little bit.
Guest:Well, because, you know, I've never been a writer on the set of someone else directing.
Guest:It's not like he's not a brilliant director, but, you know, sometimes you see a scene differently.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so, you know, I had to learn how to shut up and, you know, be the invisible writer.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Which was fine.
Guest:It was a great experience.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I don't, like, again, I think people should see it.
Marc:And I thought it was, and so working with them, were you in Ireland?
Marc:Were you there with them?
Guest:Yeah, well, we worked on the script here and then went to France shooting in these castles.
Guest:And it was just an amazing experience I would never have.
Guest:And then COVID hit and we all went home and then picked it back up in Ireland, which was supposed to be that way.
Guest:And I came for some of it.
Marc:You like Ireland?
Guest:Yeah, it was beautiful.
Guest:This dalky town and very sweet and nice.
Guest:I think I was the only Jew in the neighborhood.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I always want, because I always think about, like, it's my fantasy to live in Ireland.
Marc:And then I wonder, like, am I, how do they feel about Jews?
Marc:But I think the mayor of Ireland.
Guest:They don't know anything.
Guest:Mayor of Ireland is Jewish?
Marc:Mayor of Dublin is Jewish.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Or he was, or is there, am I wrong?
Marc:I have no idea.
Marc:He's either gay or Jewish, maybe both.
Guest:I remember being in a taxi cabin.
Guest:I was trying to understand the troubles.
Guest:Can you explain the Catholics and the Protestants to me?
Marc:Oh, you've got to watch Belfast.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then he wanted me to explain Jewish people.
Guest:He thought all Jewish people were kosher and all Jewish people wore the hats.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, really naive, lovely man.
Guest:But it was another world.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So don't move there?
Guest:Maybe not.
Guest:Unless there's a Jewish quarter.
Marc:I think there was.
Marc:I think there's a couple there.
Marc:Well, it was good talking to you.
Marc:You too.
Marc:Do you feel good about it?
Guest:I do.
Marc:Okay, good.
Guest:And I breathed.
Marc:You did?
Marc:I didn't hear you gasping.
Guest:There we go.
Marc:I didn't sense any panic.
Guest:No.
Marc:And I think we covered a lot of good stuff.
Guest:Yeah, and it's a good time to end.
Guest:My throat hurts.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Thank you so much, Mark.
Guest:Nice to talk to you.
Guest:You too.
Thank you.
Marc:Nicole Hoff Center working on a movie with Julia Louis-Dreyfus and not me.
Marc:So, and go watch your other movies.
Marc:They're quite great.
Marc:No music today.
Marc:I have no harmonica.
Marc:I do not want to play air trumpet.
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey La Fonda.
Marc:Cat angels are definitely everywhere.
Marc:And all kinds of spirits, man.
Marc:All kinds of spirits.
you