Episode 1320 - Zazie Beetz
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuck nicks?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What the fuck stirs?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:Have I neglected you?
Marc:Have I not checked in recently?
Marc:Is everything okay?
Marc:Are you holding up all right?
Marc:How's your hand?
Marc:How's your knee?
Marc:How's that thing on your head?
Marc:Did you get that thing on your leg removed?
Marc:What did it turn out to be?
Marc:Did you add too much salt?
Marc:Well, how can you fix that?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:These are big problems.
Marc:How's the cake?
Marc:How is your cake?
Marc:How's your dog, cat, fish, lizard, snake?
Marc:How's the cake?
Marc:How's the cake?
Marc:Okay, listen to me.
Marc:I'm going to pronounce this correctly a few times, I believe.
Marc:Today, I'm talking to Zassie Beetz, okay?
Marc:Zassie Beetz.
Marc:She plays Van on Atlanta.
Marc:Have you watched The New Atlanta?
Marc:I talked to her about it, but I was sort of like, again, old guy-ing it.
Marc:I'm doing some serious old guy-ing lately, both in my mind, in my heart, in my body, and how I see myself in the world.
Marc:Old guy-ing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's problematic.
Marc:Maybe I can pull out of it because I'd like to go the other way.
Marc:But listen, Zassi Beats.
Marc:She plays Van on Atlanta.
Marc:And I've been in three things with her.
Marc:But I've never met her before.
Marc:Before recently.
Marc:For the bad guys press.
Marc:We did Easy.
Marc:She's in three episodes.
Marc:I as well am in three episodes.
Marc:We're in Joker together.
Marc:And we did the bad guys.
Marc:And this is the first time I've met her.
Marc:Not right here.
Marc:But I mean for the bad guys.
Marc:It's just interesting.
Marc:Zazie Beats.
Marc:I think she's got one of those names that she doesn't bother to correct people on anymore when they fuck it up.
Marc:But I listened to her say it and I think I said it correctly.
Marc:Or maybe I just said it incorrectly like nine times.
Marc:But let me talk about this fella I know, a fairly essential character in the podcast history, Jeff Ulrich.
Marc:If you listen to any podcast regularly, you probably don't realize that Jeff Ulrich is somewhat responsible.
Marc:You might know that name if you're a longtime Earwolf listener or if you just know the history of podcasting because Jeff started the Earwolf Network.
Marc:And that company became a model for the whole podcast industry, the way podcasts make money and get distributed and all that.
Marc:That's all because of Jeff in a way.
Marc:Now Jeff's starting a new company, and when he told us about it, we thought, well, basically, we thought it would be a good thing to let you know about it as well.
Marc:It's called Dove Orchids, and it's a company that is 100% owned and operated by autistic people with the mission to improve autistic representation everywhere.
Marc:Jeff is autistic and he wanted to start a company with autistic people that will work with other companies on how to better engage their autistic employees and customers.
Marc:Every company can benefit from the diverse thinking and skills autistic people bring to the table.
Marc:And if you're a parent or a caretaker of an autistic person, they want to hear from you too.
Marc:Jeff wrote a medium post about being autistic and starting a new business that you can find at dove orchids.com.
Marc:Go check it out.
Marc:If you're part of a business that wants to reduce stigma and increase opportunities for autistic people, or just check it out.
Marc:If you're interested in learning more about neurodiversity and autistic acceptance, that's dove orchids.com.
Marc:So the old guy continues.
Marc:I can't tell if I am actually out of the loop, if there is a loop, if I am the loop.
Marc:Am I the loop?
Marc:I am my loop, I think.
Marc:I do feel like I have my fingers on the pulse of something, but not most things.
Marc:I seem to miss just about everything until somebody says you should watch that, but I don't know if that's unlike anybody else.
Marc:Is there a single pulse to have your finger on other than the demise of...
Marc:of Western civilization, the planet Earth, and the human species.
Marc:I feel like I'm innately and emphatically on the pulse of that.
Marc:But that's because I can see my own light at the end of the tunnel.
Marc:I don't know if it's relative to that, just that because I'm old and I know it's coming and I have to reckon with that on a daily basis.
Marc:I guess not everyone does.
Marc:I'm not sick, but I think about it.
Marc:I think about these things.
Marc:But I don't know.
Marc:I don't know if I don't understand things.
Marc:I don't know what crypto is.
Marc:And the other thing, the, what are they called?
Marc:NFTs.
Marc:I kind of get it.
Marc:Do I need to know?
Marc:That's the other thing.
Marc:I'm old.
Marc:Do I need to know?
Marc:How do you not know this?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Maybe I only have so much space right now.
Marc:Maybe I don't want to load up the drive with more crap.
Marc:I have to fucking, I really do.
Marc:I've really got to upload some of this shit or just get rid of it.
Marc:Just delete.
Marc:Put it in the trash.
Marc:But because of that, I feel a little out of the loop.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I was talking to my mother.
Marc:I was talking to my father.
Marc:I talked to them both within an hour of each other.
Marc:My dad is hanging in.
Marc:He seems to continue to know basically what's up.
Marc:He knows.
Marc:I find it necessary now to go, hey, dad, it's Mark.
Marc:Mark.
Marc:It's Mark, your son.
Marc:Hi, Dad.
Marc:It's Mark.
Marc:He did make reference to, you know, I've talked to him about things.
Marc:And it's kind of fun to talk to him about things now in the state that he's in where some things are just, you know, talking about a hard drive that's slowly deleting itself.
Marc:But, you know, he knows I'm kind of half looking for a place.
Marc:Maybe I get a place out in New Mexico.
Marc:And he's like, what for?
Marc:Just save your money.
Marc:I'm like, for what?
Marc:He's like, you know, you just you know, you just know you have it.
Marc:Just save it.
Marc:You know, and I'm like, then what happens to it?
Marc:He's like, give it to your family, to your grandkids.
Marc:I'm like, wrong son.
Marc:Wrong son, sir.
Marc:But they talk to my mom and she's holding up.
Marc:But I don't know.
Marc:You know, you talk to your folks.
Marc:I'm fortunate that they're both alive so I can be part of this process, the undoing.
Marc:But, you know, I just don't know.
Marc:I don't like I do not know why I work so fucking hard.
Marc:I do know.
Marc:I do not know why I just drive myself into exhaustion.
Marc:You would think that, you know, with my life that it doesn't seem that complicated.
Marc:I'm fucking busy as fuck.
Marc:And at the end of the day, I don't know why.
Marc:I realize I sit down at the end of the day, not unlike many people.
Marc:And I'm like, what what was that?
Marc:How long ago was this morning?
Marc:Jesus Christ.
Marc:That was fucking crazy.
Marc:And people are like, yeah, it's good to be busy.
Marc:Is it good to be busy?
Marc:I've got to shift away.
Marc:I've got to meditate.
Marc:I've got to slow it down.
Marc:I've got to ease up on the coffee.
Marc:Do you think drinking a quart of coffee is too much?
Marc:Because I'm drinking over a quart of coffee a day, usually before noon.
Marc:And then I feel queasy and dehydrated and my skin itches.
Marc:You think that's the coffee?
Marc:You think I should just give that up?
Marc:Where's the joy then?
Marc:Where's the joy without the coffee?
Marc:And I've been around this fucking cycle so many times in my goddamn life.
Marc:The insecurity stuff is starting to bother me.
Marc:The vulnerability and insecurity of aging.
Marc:Again, not that old.
Marc:58.
Marc:But you start to feel it.
Marc:I start to feel it.
Marc:I kind of I'm dreaming heavily to a lot of dreams to the point where it's sort of like when you wake up and you're like, oh, wow, that's disappointing.
Marc:But the sort of strange insecurity that's happening.
Marc:I mean, I've been doing the material I've been doing now since we could start doing material.
Marc:A lot of it's relative to coming out of the grief and coming out of the pandemic.
Marc:And, you know, there's like an hour and a half of stuff.
Marc:I got to tighten it up.
Marc:I'm being hard on myself.
Marc:I'm playing guitar.
Marc:Well, I played it last night.
Marc:I don't know how it went.
Marc:I'm on my own.
Marc:Jimmy Vivino's not with me.
Marc:I'm doing a trio.
Marc:But there's part of me that thinks like, OK, I'm having a good time.
Marc:OK, I'm happy that, you know, I'm bucket listing this thing.
Marc:But there's part of me that's like, who who really wants to hear this?
Marc:Do we need another old guy playing guitar with his friends?
Marc:Do we in public?
Marc:Isn't that something I can keep to myself?
Marc:And would I do it if I was only going to keep it to myself?
Marc:Probably not.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I know that all that's happening in me is not bad.
Marc:That if this sense of insecurity or lack of confidence is just some sort of unavoidable vulnerability, I can probably work from there.
Marc:And I probably should.
Marc:That's the pressing thing I think that's happening is that, look, a lot of you know me and I do have a I have a way I act in public.
Marc:I do think I have a way I act here.
Marc:It's not without depth.
Marc:It's not without showing this, but something else is happening.
Marc:There's some part of my.
Marc:weird-ass vulnerability that's kind of old in the sense that it's been down there a while, I think might want to come out and play.
Marc:And I don't really know what that looks like, but I feel it.
Marc:There's like, you know, how many marks are there inside of me?
Marc:Let's find out.
Marc:Let's count them.
Marc:Let's count the marks inside me.
Marc:I'll let you know how that goes.
Marc:Zassi Beetz is here.
Marc:Well, she was here.
Marc:Season three of Atlanta is on Thursday nights on FX and streaming on Hulu.
Marc:The Bad Guys comes out in theaters April 22nd.
Marc:I've been watching Atlanta, and I've got to be honest with you.
Marc:When you watch it, or when I watch it, this is where all the old Manning conversation started.
Marc:I'm like, am I missing something?
Marc:Is it trying too hard?
Marc:Is it too arty?
Marc:But it is...
Marc:sort of conceptual and poetic filmmaking.
Marc:But I got to be honest with you, that third episode, the one that was just on last week, it's fucking with me.
Marc:It's making me think about a lot of things from a black perspective in a way that was sort of a roundabout way.
Marc:It was non-verbalized.
Marc:It was explored poetically.
Marc:And Zazie was great on that episode, but
Marc:as they all are.
Marc:But it's really starting to twist my brain a bit.
Marc:It keeps coming back in my brain.
Marc:That's the thing about that show.
Marc:And it's not because of a joke.
Marc:It's not because of a line.
Marc:It's because you're like, what the fuck is up with that?
Marc:And that's not bad.
Marc:If I could make a show that had more of that, what the fuck is up with that?
Marc:I'd be happy.
Marc:Anyways, this is me talking to Zassi Beats.
Marc:Hi.
Marc:Hi.
Marc:Nice to see you.
Guest:You too.
Guest:Nice to see you again.
Marc:So, I know.
Marc:I can't believe we've been in three things and we never met before, but that's the way show business works.
Guest:Yeah, it is odd.
Guest:I've also done things with friends of mine who I never see ever on set.
Guest:Yeah, but we're all, you know, we do press together.
Marc:Yeah, and that's when you see each other.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So what's the deal?
Marc:You don't live here.
Marc:You live in New York.
Guest:No, yeah, I live in New York.
Guest:Do you hate coming here?
Guest:Hate is a strong word.
Guest:Do I enjoy spending extended time here?
Guest:No.
Marc:No?
Guest:A week is good.
Guest:A week in January is great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:More than that, I'm done.
Marc:Really?
Marc:What is it?
Marc:Is it just all show business?
Marc:Don't you have friends here?
Guest:I do have friends here.
Guest:I'd say that's the highlight.
Guest:But I have to say, I find the sunshine a bit aggro.
Guest:It's a lot.
Guest:And I've realized I just connect to walking cities.
Guest:So even this trip...
Guest:I decided, because Ubers take so long to get to you, I was like, if it's under a mile and a half, I'll just walk there.
Guest:But then half the time, I'm walking on the side of a highway.
Guest:I'm like, this is terrible.
Marc:Everybody who tries that when they come to LA, they're sort of like,
Guest:it's not that far I'll walk but they're just you feel weird you feel just isolated yeah and kind of like is this legal like should I be here why isn't there anyone else walking there's nothing to look at there's weird shit in the gutters yeah and so that is a deterrent for me and then otherwise do you drive well I got my license three years ago because I kept coming to LA and I was like I'm tired of being car sick yeah sitting in the back
Marc:I always get car sick.
Guest:Me too.
Guest:It's fucking worse.
Guest:And so I would associate my weeks here of just being nauseous the entire time.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I will say food is great here.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Food is really good.
Marc:Don't you get nauseous in cabs?
Marc:I can't fucking stand cabs.
Guest:I don't really.
Guest:I mean, I take cabs.
Guest:You just take the train.
Guest:But I take the train a lot of the time too.
Marc:Every once in a while I've gotten into cabs in New York and it's the worst.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's start and stop.
Guest:Yeah, I get nauseous, which is why sometimes I'll prefer the train.
Guest:I feel like that's very negative.
Guest:LA has its upsides.
Guest:Are we going to try and spin it positive?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's 2022.
Guest:Let's switch it up.
Guest:LA has some great beaches.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Have you gone to the beach since you've been here?
Guest:Not this time, but I have been there.
Marc:Are you a beach person today?
Guest:I like the beach.
Guest:I like the sea.
Guest:I think the ocean water does a lot of healing spiritually, physically.
Marc:Can you be on a boat?
Marc:Can you be on a ship?
Guest:You know, I haven't spent much time on boats.
Marc:I can't stand it.
Marc:Get nauseous.
Marc:You get nauseous in a car, man.
Guest:You're getting nauseous on a boat.
Guest:It's the worst.
Guest:I'll swim in the sea.
Marc:Yeah, that's nice.
Marc:Just go in a little bit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Take it in.
Marc:So, I watched...
Marc:I watch Atlanta.
Guest:I watch it.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I'm glad.
Guest:I hope you don't hate watch it.
Marc:No, I don't hate watch it.
Marc:Good.
Marc:I'm just a guy trying to understand things.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:Aren't we all?
Marc:Do you understand it?
Guest:I do, and sometimes I don't.
Marc:Is that true?
Marc:I watched the first one, and you're not in that one.
Guest:No.
Marc:That was sort of a mini horror movie-ish.
Marc:Watch the second one.
Marc:I did watch it.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Marc:The Amsterdam one?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I watched that one.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:You kind of come into a situation and you're kind of there and everyone's kind of there and you're like, why are they all there?
Marc:It's not real clear.
Marc:I know that he's there to perform and Donald's there to manage and then you're just there.
Marc:But because of the way it's shot, I'm looking for deeper meaning.
Guest:I think there's deeper meaning.
Guest:Of course, there has to be.
Marc:What the hell was that guy?
Guest:Tupac?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I think that that's reflections on death and transition and letting go and moving forward, in my opinion, and in terms of Van's arcs opinion.
Guest:Yeah, uh-huh.
Guest:So my reason will continue to reveal itself.
Guest:And other than that, I think we're all just existing in the same way we do every day.
Marc:Well, what is the process of shooting that?
Marc:You get full scripts that are like, I mean, I have to assume that all that stuff is pretty on the paper.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:There's no riffing when it comes to that.
Guest:Not when it comes to killing Tupac, but there's definitely like riffing.
Marc:But Amsterdam in general.
Marc:I mean, somebody had to sit down and decide that started.
Marc:It's not like we left the second season and everyone was heading to Amsterdam.
Guest:No, it was that.
Marc:It was?
Guest:The last episode is all of them going on a plane to tour in Europe.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:But then there's like- It's a problem when you got to wait three years.
Guest:Four.
Marc:Four years.
Guest:But it doesn't pick up directly off of that experience.
Guest:There's an assumption that time has passed and Paperboy or Alfred has become more famous in the same way Donald has.
Guest:The whole show really is, in my opinion, Donald's...
Guest:And his experience emotionally and psychologically and also literally.
Guest:So I think a lot of the very absurd happenings in the show are real events.
Marc:That happen to him.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I always forget that he's a big musical act.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But he is.
Guest:He is, yeah.
Marc:He's a gifted gentleman, that guy.
Guest:He is a gentleman and he is gifted.
Guest:But I definitely know a lot of the like Europe tour stuff comes from his own sort of experience.
Marc:And when you start like working with that guy, I mean, how did that start?
Marc:Did you know him before?
Guest:Not at all.
Guest:It was just a standard audition.
Guest:Really?
Guest:When I booked the pilot for Atlanta, I had been signed with my agent for like eight months.
Guest:And it was my fourth project.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, you know, the first project I kind of like was an indie.
Guest:Basically, I lost lost money on that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the second one, I was a day player on this movie.
Guest:The third one, I actually it was a movie was going for like three weeks.
Guest:I had to quit my job, my job.
Guest:Which movie is called Wolves.
Marc:How'd that go?
Guest:I think it went well.
Guest:I played, like, high school girlfriend.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:But I assumed I would just go back to work after.
Guest:But while I was shooting Wolves, I booked the pilot for Atlanta.
Guest:And that bought me a little more time.
Guest:And then the pilot got picked up.
Guest:And that bought me the rest of my life.
Guest:So, yeah, very quick, like...
Marc:Do you think that was the changer that broke you?
Guest:Oh, absolutely.
Guest:That completely changed my life.
Marc:They got Joker after that?
Guest:I got Deadpool first.
Marc:Deadpool.
Guest:And Easy and Joker.
Guest:I mean, everything else.
Marc:Did you like doing Easy?
Guest:I did.
Marc:It's weird, right?
Marc:Did Joe just come find you?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Joe...
Marc:Have you talked to him lately?
Guest:Not lately.
Marc:I wonder what's up with that guy.
Guest:Do you talk to him regularly?
Marc:No, I don't.
Guest:He's an odd guy.
Guest:I think he's just making stuff in Chicago.
Marc:Yeah, that's what he does.
Marc:He makes stuff in Chicago.
Guest:That's what was nice about Easy, honestly.
Guest:It really did feel like...
Guest:friends just making stuff almost like a college yeah like yeah we're gonna do our thesis movie for theater class and real improv shit yeah that was the best part of that thing that was the best part he knows how to cut that stuff that's not easy do you feel comfortable doing it oh yeah
Marc:I don't mind.
Marc:It's great.
Marc:But you always say, I always wonder, he's got to put that together in his head.
Marc:And you're kind of evolving the story as it goes.
Marc:And you just got to trust that he knows what he's doing.
Marc:And it doesn't feel like it.
Guest:No, but that's what makes it all in some ways also very approachable and made it fun.
Guest:Because I think if he was too, like, auteur, blah, blah, blah, it would have felt more intimidating.
Guest:Like, do I know what I'm doing?
Marc:I'm trying to remember yours.
Marc:You were with that guy, right?
Guest:Dave Franco and Aya Cash.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:So, I mean, our storyline.
Marc:Did you do any more or just the one?
Guest:I did all three.
Marc:Yeah, me too.
Marc:We must be like, there's only a few of us that did every season.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, yeah, I guess we're suckers.
Marc:No, it's cool, right?
Guest:I like going to Chicago.
Marc:Yeah, I love Chicago.
Marc:I know.
Marc:In recent years, I've been like, this is a real city.
Marc:It's a real place with real things.
Marc:Only recently?
Marc:Well, I mean, I would go there and do comedy, but to spend a week or two there, there's some cities where you can't get a sense of the identity of the place.
Marc:And it doesn't feel, it's not a cohesive experience to me.
Marc:But over time, you start to realize there's real Chicago stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And there's real Chicago people and there's a personality dug deep.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's charming and gritty and weird.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I really like Chicago.
Marc:Like Chicago smokes and eats things it shouldn't.
Guest:They have great food there.
Guest:I like that it feels like this like northern city and I don't think it's trying to be anything else.
Guest:Nope.
Guest:Like some places I'm like you're trying to be New York or you're trying to you know whatever and I feel like Chicago is very proudly Chicago.
Marc:Where'd you come from?
Guest:New York.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's my bias as well.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You grew up there the whole time?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was born in Berlin because I'm half German.
Guest:Who's German?
Guest:My dad.
Marc:Is he still around?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Where does he live?
Guest:He lives in Jersey now.
Marc:In Jersey.
Marc:He's a German in Jersey?
Guest:A German in Jersey, yes.
Marc:Do you have family in Germany?
Guest:Yeah, I do.
Guest:His whole family.
Marc:And you go there.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Now, so you speak German.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What part of Germany?
Guest:He's from Berlin.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:East Germany, actually.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I grew up.
Guest:So his parents are in Berlin.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I have a cousin in Berlin.
Guest:And then the rest of the family is sprinkled throughout the country.
Marc:Do you have brothers and sisters?
Yeah.
Guest:I have a half-brother, Justin.
Guest:He's 15.
Marc:Who's half?
Marc:My mom.
Marc:Oh, and that was after you?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Oh, he's younger than you.
Guest:Yeah, so my parents divorced when I was five, and then my mom got remarried.
Marc:Good guy?
Guest:Yes, very good guy.
Guest:That's nice.
Marc:All worked out.
Guest:It did work out, and I'm so glad I have a sibling now.
Guest:I was very resentful about the fact that I didn't.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But like Germany, I have no sense of Germany.
Guest:Have you ever been?
Marc:No.
Guest:Ooh.
Marc:I know.
Guest:You should go.
Marc:I know.
Guest:Berlin is really great.
Marc:Is it still?
Guest:It's very, you know, every international city I think is changing and becoming corporate.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Or like big city.
Guest:Like I feel like that's happening to London and Paris and New York and LA.
Marc:Oh, I went to London and it was like so many cranes building so many buildings.
Guest:Yeah, like just condos.
Guest:Yeah, I don't know what they are.
Guest:Nothing very interesting.
Guest:New York, too, though.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I mean, who the fuck is living in all those buildings?
Guest:I think nobody.
Marc:Isn't that weird, though?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I've lived in New York for years, and I go back there, and I see all these buildings, and no one can afford to live there.
Marc:So what is it?
Marc:They're just big monuments to invested money?
Guest:I think, yeah, I don't know how they're making money off of it.
Guest:Yeah, I don't get it.
Guest:I think it's a lot of foreign investors.
Guest:The oligarchs.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Hiding their money in large, empty buildings.
Guest:In these buildings.
Guest:in new york we have to deal with yeah um but you have a relationship with germany i do absolutely so i used to go um yeah so i was born there and then i went to i went to preschool there so i lived there when i speak german obviously i speak german that's a rough language um yeah it's actually well the grammar is rough
Marc:Well, and the sound of it's rough.
Guest:The sound of it, it's actually quite similar to English.
Guest:Maybe not the sound, but there are... Isn't there a lot of hooks in the... Yeah, there are.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But like, hand, hand.
Marc:Hand.
Marc:Shoe, shoe.
Marc:Right, okay, so that's two things.
Guest:Jacket, yaku.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I feel like they're cognates, but then the grammar just sort of like destroys any sort of semblance of relationship between German and English.
Guest:The grammar is quite complicated.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But...
Marc:But you got it second nature, right?
Guest:It did.
Guest:Yeah, luckily.
Marc:So you go back and you have grandparents there?
Guest:I do, yes.
Guest:It's crazy.
Marc:It's not really, but to me it is.
Guest:I guess.
Marc:I'm just weird about Germany, I think.
Guest:I mean, maybe as you should be.
Guest:Maybe.
Guest:But I would go back, yeah, every summer, you know, essentially instead of like summer camp, my parents would just send me to Germany.
Guest:And so I'd spend my like two months with them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I had a lot of alone time with them.
Guest:And besides my dad, nobody in my family speaks English.
Guest:Oh, in Germany.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it's full German.
Guest:And I have a very close relationship with them.
Yeah.
Guest:I love them very much.
Marc:You got to do a German movie.
Guest:I do.
Guest:I'm trying.
Guest:But you ever watch Fassbender movies?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Too bad he's not around.
Marc:You can do a weird fucked up.
Guest:I mean, there's a yeah, there's a few filmmakers I would love to do stuff with.
Marc:But I think that would be amazing at this point in your career as you're getting known in America to just do a full on fucking German movie.
Marc:I think I would love to.
Marc:How is that not happening?
Marc:Who do we got to call?
Marc:Have you looked at scripts in German?
Guest:Not full German.
Guest:I get a lot of or not a lot, but I get some like she's she's maybe or they work in sometimes my like German.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Ness.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Or they find it intriguing.
Guest:And yeah.
Guest:And then and then it like conveniently works with the story.
Guest:But I haven't done like a full just full German everything.
Guest:I would love to.
Marc:Yeah, it'd be great.
Guest:But I guess I don't really know German casting people or German... Directors, even?
Guest:I mean, not personally.
Marc:Yeah, I haven't watched... I don't know if I've seen any... I've seen a few contemporary German movies.
Guest:Have you seen Tony Erdmann?
Marc:Yeah, I did.
Guest:That one is so good.
Marc:Is that about the woman?
Guest:And the father.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Oh my God, it's a crazy movie.
Guest:I would love to work with Mahan Ad as that director.
Marc:It's like a two and a half hour long movie.
Marc:It's like three hours.
Marc:Yeah, it's bizarre.
Marc:Yeah, it's great.
Marc:I remember watching that.
Marc:It was at Film Forum for a long time.
Guest:Yeah, probably.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, that and then also, I don't know what it's called in, I think it's The White Ribbon in English.
Guest:If I'm not mistaken, that's Hanukkah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:If I'm not mistaken, that one's really good.
Guest:I don't know if I saw that.
Guest:turn of the century black and white it's it was made it's a modern film yeah it takes place turn of the century it's this black and white story about this like village and all these terrible things are happening in the village and everybody's trying to figure out who's doing it and it's sort of kind of a lot from the point of view of the children and then this like teach it's very interesting yeah the white ribbon i think it's the german director yeah
Marc:Yeah, you got to get into one.
Marc:I'm just curious about it.
Marc:I just want to see you speak German at length.
Guest:And be like, wow, it's real.
Guest:Yeah, people don't usually believe it until they- Well, you don't have any accent of any kind.
Guest:No.
Marc:And that's just normal.
Guest:I don't have an accent, but I flub grammar sometimes.
Marc:I barely know how to talk.
Guest:Do you know any other languages?
Marc:No, I can't do it.
Marc:What did you learn in school?
Marc:I can barely get through English.
Marc:My grammar's terrible.
Marc:I was an English major.
Marc:I studied Spanish.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I studied Spanish in high school, and I just couldn't deal.
Marc:Where did you go to college?
Marc:Boston University.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Where'd you go to college?
Guest:Skidmore College.
Marc:I know that college.
Guest:Yeah, we're close.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's a fancy school, isn't it?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is it an Ivy League school?
Marc:Like close?
Guest:They want to be an Ivy League, I guess.
Guest:They're not, but it's like mini Ivy, I think they call themselves.
Marc:So why'd your dad move here?
Marc:What got him out of Germany?
Guest:Well...
Guest:So my dad grew up in East Germany, and when the wall came down in 89, he was just like, let's go to America.
Marc:Well, they might put it back up in a couple years.
Marc:It's not clear how this is all going to pan out, but yeah.
Guest:Honestly, I think a lot of old communists wouldn't mind.
Guest:But my dad, yeah, so he came to the U.S., and then quite quickly, within a couple of months, he met my mom.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, so he moved here when he met her?
Marc:Like they didn't meet in Germany?
Guest:No.
Guest:Well, he didn't move here.
Guest:He came here on like a summer program.
Guest:Met my mom on that summer program.
Guest:Like a college thing?
Guest:No, he was 25-ish when that happened.
Marc:What's he do?
Guest:He's a cabinetmaker.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I need some work, but he's not here.
Guest:He's not here.
Guest:He's in New York.
Guest:He's in Jersey.
Guest:But he's great.
Guest:He does most of my furniture.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah, he's great.
Marc:Can he make tables?
Guest:Oh, my table is from his hands.
Marc:And is it high-end stuff?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, that's nice.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you notice how to do the polishing and all that stuff?
Guest:Yeah, he does it all.
Guest:I have a bed from him, table.
Marc:That's a real artisanal craft.
Guest:Yeah, it feels very heady, but he's a man of his hands.
Marc:Yeah, and he uses saws and sands things.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's great.
Guest:Yeah, he made a Barbie bunk bed with me when I was like six.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:That was nice.
Marc:So he's here on some sort of cabinet-making program.
Yeah.
Guest:Actually, this was before he was really in full cabinet making.
Guest:So he was the superintendent.
Guest:This is going to get too complicated, but he met my mom.
Guest:My mom was young, 21 at the time, 22 when they met.
Guest:And then they very quickly decided to have a child, got pregnant, went to Germany to get married there.
Guest:My mom had me.
Marc:Now, was this a jarring thing for your mother?
Guest:I think exciting.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:I think they kind of both were like, love.
Marc:Where'd she come from?
Guest:My mom grew up in New York.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Yeah, so originally Brooklyn, and then she moved to Manhattan when she was 10.
Marc:All the family's okay with everything?
Guest:Well, what?
Guest:questionable but um they've come around in the years as far as I can tell um but yeah you know I think she she was young and I think just excited by life excited by love and I decided to have a run off to Germany and get married Germany yeah and then they had me there and then uh when I was about a year they came back to New York
Marc:And they were married and you were a family.
Guest:And we were family.
Marc:Living in the city.
Guest:Yep.
Marc:Now, okay, so what is the progress of being you?
Marc:Did it feel weird to have a German dad, a white German dad?
Guest:It's interesting because to me, he's my dad.
Marc:Yeah, of course.
Guest:So I would say in the complete nuclear sense and just within the confines of my family, no, it didn't feel weird at all.
Guest:I actually, I feel very American and I feel very German.
Guest:My dad is very German.
Guest:When we speak, 90% of it is in German.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, and then my grandparents also, so his parents I have a very close relationship with.
Guest:But then I think in the context of the outer world, I guess... What about your mom's people?
Guest:Yeah, so my mom's black and...
Guest:Yeah, so with my mom, everybody accepted each other very wonderfully, and there was no conflict around that, which was great.
Guest:And to this day, they have been now divorced for 25 years, but they love him and respect him, and he's a great father.
Marc:Yeah, so everyone's still in touch and it's okay?
Guest:Not actively in touch, but there's like respect and, you know, came to some Christmases and things like that.
Guest:But, you know, that also tapered off as I got older.
Guest:But yeah.
Marc:In terms of the outside world.
Guest:In terms of the outside world.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I think that there's definitely... I mean, honestly, I still think it's kind of like a revolutionary thing to be in an interracial relationship.
Marc:It is.
Marc:It seems like it, doesn't it?
Guest:It's still a huge thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, to, I guess, be the product of that certainly comes with questions and like, what is this like?
Guest:What is that like?
Guest:So I think there was always curiosity around it, but like...
Guest:My mom is my mom and my dad is my papa.
Marc:Why is it a huge thing?
Marc:I mean, at this point in time, it shouldn't really be that huge thing.
Marc:It seems fairly common, but it still is sort of like, wow.
Guest:I think it's still just sort of, it's common, but I still don't think it's the majority.
Guest:And I think that there's just a lot of...
Guest:You know, we're used to our culture, whatever it is we grew up with, whether you're white, black or Asian or whatever.
Guest:German.
Guest:And I think there's just sometimes discomfort around folding in a different culture.
Guest:And people, I think, are just still a little bit uneasy about it.
Guest:But I think that's...
Guest:Certainly in this country.
Marc:It's changing for both ways.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like as it aggressively becomes more common and progressive and accepted, there's this whole other side that's pushing back more now than ever.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's fucking horrendous.
Guest:Yeah, it's quite odd.
Marc:What a disaster.
Marc:What's going on in Germany?
Guest:Lord, I don't know.
Guest:I think all of Europe is going through stuff.
Guest:I think the United States is going through stuff.
Guest:I think collectively as a globe, we're all sort of experiencing something.
Guest:Maybe 2012 was the end of the world and we didn't realize it.
Guest:My mom always said it was not the end of the world, but a shift in energy.
Marc:Oh, there you go.
Guest:Nice way to look at it.
Guest:Have you heard of this thing where they're trying to find the God particle?
Guest:Do you know what I'm talking about?
Guest:I like it.
Marc:Explain it to me as best you're understanding.
Guest:The scientific element is really going to fall short here.
Guest:That's okay.
Marc:The God particle.
Guest:So they're trying to find sort of the like, I think the element that is below sort of like the string theory, like what is truly the basis of all things.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so they started this atomic thing and they're throwing neutrons, electrons.
Guest:I don't know what they're throwing around, protons.
Marc:But they're chasing the God particle.
Guest:But they're chasing the God particle.
Guest:It's this huge underground contraption.
Guest:And when they turned it on, scientists had four different ways this could go.
Guest:Either...
Guest:Everything just basically blows up, which it didn't.
Guest:And another one, gosh, was nothing happens.
Guest:And then another one was like a parallel universe begins.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:How did we move there?
Guest:And, well, I think we're in, like, the bad one.
Marc:I know.
Guest:That's, like, the idea is, like, there was, like, a good one and a bad one.
Guest:Or, you know, not good and bad.
Marc:Is it exactly the same, only good?
Marc:Like, are we living in both?
Guest:Or do we not know?
Guest:I mean, I guess we're living in both, I suppose, if it's parallel.
Guest:I'm really doing a terrible job, but it's quite interesting in terms of, like, huh, maybe there was a shift.
Guest:And if you think about it, like, when did things start feeling a little weird?
Yeah.
Marc:I know exactly when they started feeling weird.
Marc:When Trump was elected president.
Marc:I mean, things were bad.
Guest:Yeah, I guess.
Guest:Then it got really weird.
Marc:Totally weird.
Marc:Like, what the fuck is happening?
Marc:I know exactly the day.
Guest:That was not a good day.
Guest:I passed out the day after that.
Marc:You passed out?
Guest:I think out of anxiety.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You mean just out of nowhere?
Guest:Fainted, yes.
Marc:Where?
Guest:At home?
Guest:I was at somebody else's home.
Guest:I was doing a table read for something and I just, I was talking to somebody and I was like, I need to go to the bathroom.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where I was like, I was like, this isn't, something is off.
Guest:And I was walking and thank goodness my fiance was there and I walked by and I was like, I'm not gonna.
Guest:And I just.
Marc:Boom.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think it was anxiety.
Marc:Do you, are you, have you always had that?
Guest:I haven't always had that, but since then I have.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That was the beginning of it?
Guest:Well, I get very- How old were you?
Guest:So that was- 20, this was 2016, so I was 25.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:I think, I've realized, so, well.
Marc:What?
Guest:I have a very complicated relationship to anxiety, as everybody does.
Marc:I'm full of dread all the time.
Marc:I'm managing dread right now.
Guest:Really?
Marc:It manifests very specifically for me.
Guest:In what way?
Guest:Well, like... Indigestion.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:Like, I've always had it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But it took me a long time to realize that I get overwhelmed with it, and then it almost feels like a depression, but it's really not.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's a paralysis.
Guest:Yes, that's how I feel.
Guest:I had it, I think, well, not I think, since puberty, but I didn't have words for it until really my mid-20s when it completely overwhelmed me and I essentially became immobile.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And I had this sort of like crisis control because I was like, this is just, and this sort of around that time was when it really all was coming to a head.
Marc:At 25?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But you've been dealing with it your whole life.
Marc:You just didn't have a word for it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I would say 25 is when it was at its ugliest.
Guest:And when I it really started to change my life, honestly.
Marc:Like what happened?
Marc:What were the symptoms?
Guest:I was so I would feel like I had to pass out.
Guest:So I just lie down for like hours a day because I was like, I can't stand.
Guest:I stopped eating.
Marc:Did you think you were depressed?
Guest:I didn't think I was depressed because it wasn't depression.
Guest:I get anxiety.
Guest:I don't get depression.
Guest:It was like it's as if if you've experienced a panic attack, it was as if a panic attack was happening 24-7.
Guest:So I just had no relief.
Guest:And so I couldn't eat.
Guest:I was like losing weight.
Guest:I was seeing blurry.
Guest:I couldn't read.
Guest:I couldn't.
Guest:Um, I, I was like just indigestion and, and I couldn't, I couldn't be alone.
Guest:I remember my partner at the time, he had to travel a little bit for work and I had to like stay at my mom's house.
Guest:Cause I was like, I cannot, I was just not functioning.
Guest:And so then I sort of did a huge kind of overhaul and a bunch of stuff and really became introspective.
Guest:And I was like, at the time, I like stopped drinking, no sugar, meditating 20 minutes every morning, every night, trying to work out every day.
Guest:And that's when you're like, oh, brains are also different.
Guest:Like you can implement all those things and need help.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, yes, but I think since then I have so much more vocabulary around it, so much more understanding, and so my management of it is just way better.
Guest:But since then, when I am stressed out, like last year I had some stuff with my tooth.
Marc:What?
Marc:Like what?
Marc:I just had a tooth pulled out.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Fully?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:How was that?
Marc:I'm sitting here playing with the hole.
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:It's got stitches in there right now.
Guest:Are you going to get like a fake one in there?
Marc:I guess so.
Marc:I got to.
Guest:I've never had my wisdom teeth pulled out and dentists keep telling me I should, but I'm terrified of the process.
Marc:It's a mess, man.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But I mean, you get put out and then you wake up.
Guest:That's actually the part that scares me.
Guest:It scares me too.
Guest:The idea of like, all right, three, two, one, and you're out.
Guest:I know.
Guest:That sort of kind of gives me a lot of dread.
Marc:Are you kidding, man?
Marc:I went to the dentist on Friday knowing I had to have that done.
Marc:And I'm like, I guess I'm ready to die.
Guest:But then was it nice, I guess, ultimately?
Marc:Well, look, you know, my fear is that something is going to go wrong.
Guest:Why did you have to get it pulled?
Guest:What happened?
Marc:Because it was a root canal and I didn't feel anything, but that tooth was rotting.
Marc:So it was already a crown and a dead tooth, and the dead tooth at the base of the crown started to rot, so it could get infected, so I had to get it off.
Marc:And I just went there this morning.
Marc:But I was afraid... Wait, you had it done this morning?
Guest:No.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:I went to the dentist to have him do follow-up.
Marc:I did it Friday.
Marc:But anyways...
Marc:My anxiety around that was, what if something fucks up with the anesthetic and I die?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:That was where I went.
Marc:But I've been sober like 22, 23 years.
Marc:So it was nice.
Marc:It was a freebie.
Guest:You know, I had to wake up and be like, hey, man.
Guest:I feel real good.
Marc:But how do you, because I still deal with this and it took me a long time to realize that it was anxiety.
Marc:And I still jack myself up on coffee to the point where I'm exhausted.
Marc:And I still get overwhelmed and have to take naps.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I take naps all the time.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But but I function.
Marc:But I do.
Marc:There is a fight.
Guest:Do you feel like you function?
Guest:Do you feel like you're thriving?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But like but I have to make choices like through repetition, like doing exercise, like hiking up the mountain twice a week because I'll wake up.
Marc:And I've somehow trained myself because there's a good part of my brain that's like, oh, fuck, I don't want to.
Marc:God damn it.
Marc:I don't want to deal with this.
Marc:I can't go.
Marc:I don't want to.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I'll get anxious about it.
Marc:But there's a stronger voice now that's sort of like, just go.
Guest:That's me, too.
Guest:I feel like I've realized the just go and just do is often a good addresses the thing well.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I would argue to say that I do think sort of modern lifestyle of being quite sedentary and, you know, lack of real human-to-human interpersonal connection and, you know, blah, blah, blah, the Internet, all of that, which the Internet has wonderful things and also horrible things.
Guest:I would argue contributes, I think, to the, like –
Guest:seemingly vast mental health crisis we're having.
Marc:Well, just the amount of shit you dump into your brain.
Guest:But you're saying you feel like you've had this also your whole life.
Marc:Yeah, I do.
Marc:I track it to a sort of nebulous parenting where I don't know that I was given proper boundaries.
Marc:I don't know that I was given the indication that it was going to be okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I think that you just get wired that way.
Marc:There's a certain panic to it that if you can't, you know, kind of rely on your parents to sort of comfort you and talk you down, you're on your own.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And eventually that's gonna fuck with you.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know what your situation was.
Guest:You know, I think that's also, that's my question.
Guest:I don't really know where mine comes from.
Guest:Because I had... Grounded people.
Guest:I had very wonderful, or have very wonderful parents.
Guest:I think...
Marc:Maybe you're just sensitive.
Guest:I think I'm sensitive.
Guest:I think, honestly, I do think for me a lot of it is modern life.
Guest:I find my anxiety completely dissolves when I am actively engaged in nature.
Guest:If I'm out every day.
Marc:With people?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:With people, well, not even with people, with like the woods, with the sea.
Guest:I recently did a, I was just kind of, you know, it's been a lot of work recently.
Guest:And so I was like, let me go on a little trip to the shore for like four days.
Guest:And so every day I was like surfing and like running around.
Guest:I was just like in the jungle, in the ocean.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Maybe it was vacation and I felt great, but it was interesting.
Guest:My fatigue is completely gone.
Guest:Really?
Guest:The way I eat.
Guest:It's just like actively engaging in life versus I do feel like the majority of my time I am sitting behind a computer screen reading stuff, doing emails, doing whatever.
Guest:And I do think that I think a reconnection to people in nature is huge.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But obviously for everybody, you know, different things, different backgrounds.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, anxiety is anxiety.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And this stuff certainly escalates.
Marc:And sadly, I like being all jacked up.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And also I don't really realize when I'm looking at my phone, like just how much garbage I'm dumping into my head and what I'm reacting to.
Marc:One of the other things that helped my anxiety was realizing that most of what I'm reacting to most of the time, my brain is making up.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And that to me was a major breakthrough.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's sort of like, that's not real.
Marc:You're not reacting to something real.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You ever do that?
Guest:But it is interesting.
Guest:Like, I will have that realization.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, a cognizant, like, why am I having... Even, like, very simple things.
Guest:Like, I'll feel like I'm getting a panic attack if I, like, find out.
Yeah.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I can't come up with a great example right now.
Marc:Like that your food's not going to be here on time?
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Maybe something, yeah, something like I was really looking forward to a certain meal and then that's not happening.
Guest:And I can find myself working myself up to a panic.
Guest:And I actually find, I think I'm actually kind of a very laid back person.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, and I realized, I'm like, why am I having this very physical reaction right now where I'm like, my heart is palpitating and I'm having like, I feel, you can feel the adrenaline just pumping through your veins.
Guest:And you realize, you're like, this is over nothing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And over something that...
Guest:I used to not really have a reaction to.
Guest:So why am I having this reaction?
Guest:But it is interesting.
Guest:And I don't think a lot of people realize who have never dealt with depression or have never dealt with anxiety, how fully physical it is.
Guest:It's not just like, I'm nervous.
Guest:It's like a full physical kind of situation.
Marc:Sometimes my chest tightens up.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Or I can feel it in my neck.
Guest:Or again, back with my tooth.
Guest:I had some stuff going on with my tooth and I had gotten some surgery on it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I came home, the Novocaine wore off and I was experiencing pain.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was fine.
Guest:It was manageable pain.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But I was like, something's wrong.
Guest:So I called the dentist.
Guest:But I was...
Guest:I started like passing out and I was like, is something wrong?
Guest:That's just like, I think you're just having a panic attack.
Guest:And I was like, okay, but it was over not like some tooth pain.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so you're like, how do you even stop that?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How do you, but I think knowing helps and then knowing, okay, I'm feeling faint.
Guest:What do you have to do?
Guest:There's certain things you can do that, that, um, breathe into a bag.
Guest:Breathe in.
Guest:I don't, does that help?
Marc:No, I mean, I thought that's a panic attack.
Guest:Oh, I guess so, yeah, because then you're like hyperventilating.
Marc:Do you get that?
Marc:You can't catch your breath kind of thing?
Guest:I get that less, thank goodness, because that sounds terrifying.
Marc:I have to tell myself I'm not in a hurry a lot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I guess you do so many different things, too, and you're like running stuff.
Marc:Yeah, it's just like my brain doesn't get any rest.
Guest:I think both you and I need a little more meditation or something.
Guest:I tried, man, I tried.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You stick with it?
Guest:No, I only do it when I'm in crisis.
Guest:That's not the time to do it.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I was doing it during the pandemic every day I get up.
Guest:I mean, who wasn't?
Guest:Who wasn't?
Guest:I was working out every day during the pandemic.
Guest:I'm still working out.
Marc:Well, the first two months.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then everything fell apart.
Marc:I still hold on to that, but I let go of the meditation because I don't have the patience for it.
Marc:I'd rather drink all the coffee.
Marc:I like to get up and drink all the coffee, and then I would meditate.
Marc:Amped.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Hyper-focused.
Guest:Yeah, hyper-focused meditation.
Guest:It's actually interesting.
Guest:That sounds like a sect of something like hyper-meditation.
Guest:Hyper-meditation.
Marc:Highly caffeinated meditation.
Marc:But then I just lost the patience for it.
Marc:All right, so in New York, what neighborhood did you grow up in?
Yeah.
Marc:Now I'm anxious.
Guest:Hard left.
Guest:Sorry, I'm yelling.
Guest:Oh, I grew up in Washington.
Guest:Hi.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:So, yes.
Marc:And when did you start like doing the the acting thing?
Marc:What's your mom do?
Guest:My mom, gosh, I could never... I don't actually know what she does.
Guest:It's social work adjacent.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, so she's jumped around sort of in that.
Marc:Does she deal with people?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Social work, they're unsung heroes of our world.
Guest:She does a lot of program management and creation.
Guest:She does a lot of rehabilitation stuff.
Guest:She used to work as like family mediator.
Guest:She used to work with women in domestically violent situations.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:So did she work at like one of those like a day center kind of thing?
Guest:Yeah, she worked for like a non-for-profit sort of like organization.
Guest:So they did all kinds of stuff.
Guest:Also rehabilitation for like young men who were violent or also working with prisoners who were violent or women who defended themselves and were then incarcerated.
Guest:So like all over that spectrum.
Marc:So what was her sense of parenting?
Marc:What did you get turned on to?
Marc:It seems like a pretty progressive world.
Marc:Was there art in the house?
Guest:Music?
Guest:Art, music, I would say in quite a normal sense.
Guest:I wouldn't say my mom is necessarily a highly artistic person.
Guest:individual I'd say she's like spiritual in mind and in being but isn't the artist I would say my dad I would say is a bit more creative and you know I also grew up like loving to paint and to draw and I would say you know my dad is a bit more he was like he loved photography and he liked also drawing and things like that but no I think in my household so
Guest:Did you paint much?
Guest:I did, yeah.
Guest:And you were good at it?
Guest:I mean, my dad is still like, you should have been a graphic artist.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Or something like that.
Guest:But I realized quickly that that was a hobby I shouldn't monetize.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You still do it?
Guest:I do, yeah.
Guest:I love it.
Marc:Watercolors?
Guest:I like watercolors.
Guest:I like acrylics.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, kind of all kinds of stuff.
Guest:Big canvases?
Oh.
Guest:normal.
Guest:Abstract?
Guest:No, I like portraiture.
Marc:Oh, you paint people?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I need all photos and paintings to have a person in it.
Guest:Or else you get anxiety?
Guest:Or else I'm bored.
Guest:But I would say my parents just did a good job of like, they just sort of
Guest:Let me be me.
Guest:So I feel like I was sort of jack of all trades, master of none.
Guest:Like I liked to draw.
Guest:Was I a master at it?
Guest:Absolutely not.
Guest:I liked to sing.
Guest:I liked to dance.
Guest:I liked making clothes.
Guest:I also was going to work with animals and then I was going to maybe be a diplomat.
Guest:And then I was like, I'm going to learn all the languages.
Guest:So I've kind of been all over the place.
Guest:How did you land on acting?
Guest:That was just one of my hobbies.
Marc:How so?
Marc:Did you do, like, kids?
Guest:Just did it in school.
Marc:Kids plays?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I did my first play.
Guest:I was seven.
Guest:I actually think, so I did, I went to after school because my parents were working, and one of the programs that my, like, elementary school did was just, like, the theater thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I did Annie and the Music Man and...
Guest:Guys and Dolls.
Guest:I remember those three shows specifically.
Guest:And I think to this day, I had such a positive experience with that.
Guest:I'm trying to emulate the feeling I had.
Marc:From when you were a kid?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:How's that going?
Guest:You know...
Guest:It's a process.
Marc:Well, I mean, but the feeling of being on stage is exhilarating.
Marc:Yeah, but versus, all right, cut.
Guest:Yeah, you know, that was a big transition for me.
Guest:Like, I totally had to readjust my thinking.
Guest:And then also there's a difference, again, like monetizing your hobby.
Guest:I think suddenly having pressure of like, ooh, there's money riding on this.
Marc:Well, when did that start happening?
Marc:I mean, like, how did you go to college for acting?
Guest:No, I was a French major in college.
Guest:I did a lot of theater classes.
Guest:I lived in Paris for a year, which was quite formative for me.
Marc:How's the French?
Guest:Well, it used to be very fluid.
Guest:It's less fluid now.
Guest:And I love Paris.
Marc:Well, you're an international person.
Marc:It's nice to have that side.
Guest:I feel so fortunate.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's easy in Europe.
Guest:You know, I had that European connection.
Guest:And so it's easy to just drive around and go everywhere.
Guest:So where did you learn?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:So acting just like in school.
Guest:OK, to be fair, I went to LaGuardia High School, which is.
Marc:Oh, that's the one.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Is that the fame school?
Guest:Yes, it is.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But again, I don't.
Guest:I'm old.
Marc:That's what old people ask.
Guest:That's where they did the fame.
Guest:I do.
Guest:I will say, yeah, it's usually older people who ask about that.
Guest:But I will I people I don't think realize that it's like it's a public school.
Guest:It's not like so kids from all over the city go there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's what's actually great about it.
Guest:It hits all demographics economically, like background, everything.
Guest:And so it's quite diverse in that way.
Guest:But it's just kids who like like art.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so, you know, acting, I just liked acting.
Guest:I would do it in school.
Guest:I would do it in like local church or whatever.
Guest:Not that I went to church.
Guest:It was just like churches that would do plays.
Guest:And so my mom was like, you should audition for LaGuardia.
Guest:And I did.
Guest:And I and I was lucky enough to get in and have that very interesting experience.
Guest:So I guess I had that primed.
Guest:But again, I was doing a bunch of stuff.
Guest:And then in college, I was like, all right, I actively did not apply to any conservatory programs because I was like, I want to try other stuff.
Guest:And so I did theater classes in college as a part of that community.
Guest:But I was like, I'm not majoring in theater.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because you want to learn other things.
Guest:Broaden the education.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And I took a lot of courses on international relations.
Guest:I took art classes.
Guest:I ended up being a French literature sort of major, which I don't know how useful I guess that is.
Marc:What did you focus on, though?
Marc:Did you read Rambo?
Marc:No.
Guest:Yes, we read Voltaire and all the things.
Guest:Yes, of course.
Guest:But to be fair, and I will say this.
Guest:I went into college not knowing a word of French.
Guest:Not one.
Guest:And I just loved the language.
Guest:I just thought it was interesting.
Guest:And I left college fluent.
Guest:So I came out with a tangible thing.
Marc:You can probably still read it pretty well, right?
Guest:I can read it well, and I can totally get by and do my thing.
Guest:It's just not as... Right.
Guest:Engaged.
Guest:Yeah, as it was 10 years ago.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then I graduated from college, and I came home, and I was like, well, I've been acting for so long, just on my free time, like I can't not try it.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So I tried.
Marc:And you started to work.
Yeah.
Guest:I first worked at a casting office for free.
Marc:To get in?
Guest:Just to kind of be near it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Whose office?
Guest:Susan Shopmaker.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:And so she often had interns coming in and just helping out.
Guest:So I did that like three, well, I was doing it like five days a week and then I was like, I need a job.
Marc:What'd you learn?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What did I learn?
Marc:I mean, seeing it, that's the beginning of the demystifying process.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Honestly...
Marc:Did you see how competitive it was?
Guest:I knew it was competitive.
Guest:I think watching people audition was useful to see that etiquette and what that is like.
Guest:Surely, I guess the idea of it's not necessarily about talent, but just about what a project needs.
Guest:I remember specifically there was somebody who came in and he was phenomenal, but he was bald.
Guest:And he was like, we already have this other guy who's bald and we can't do both bald men.
Guest:And so it was like, you know, just stuff like that is, I think, good for a performer to see, to be like.
Guest:That's like the saddest story ever.
Guest:Yeah, he was great.
Yeah.
Marc:I mean, that's why I always did comedy.
Marc:I never really focused on doing auditions, because I always knew there's going to be somebody who can handle it better than me.
Guest:I will say, though, I love auditioning.
Guest:I love it.
Marc:You do, because of the adrenaline?
Guest:I actually think the adrenaline.
Guest:That doesn't give you anxiety?
Guest:I think I'm able to, which is why I can perform, I can turn that dread into something productive.
Guest:Like that specific nervousness, that like I'm having indigestion, that thing.
Guest:I think maybe just through years of doing it, I actively, I'm like, this energy is now transforming and it's going to just radiate through me into performance.
Guest:And then I can just like black out on stage and it just becomes like.
Marc:If you're present.
Guest:Makes me present.
Guest:But I actually feel like internally it's transforming into like just it's like coursing through me as something other than nervousness.
Guest:And so I think I think that is a difference with like somebody who performs like do you.
Guest:clam up or do you just let it go and show yourself?
Guest:I think I learned to just show myself.
Guest:And I think that with auditioning, I feel like, all right, I'm going to go in this room and I'm just, it's my room.
Guest:I'm going to show them
Guest:I'm going to show them me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm just going to take it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I learned.
Guest:I remember somebody told I just learned, like, if you need a chair, I'd be like, I'm taking chair.
Guest:If I start the scene, I didn't like it.
Guest:I'm just going to restart the scene.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I just kind of went in kind of like, I'm not going to apologize for being here.
Guest:I know you guys want to cast somebody.
Guest:You want to be done casting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Let me be the ticket.
Guest:And I would just throw my shit at the wall and then leave.
Guest:And then I'd buy like a tiramisu from Italy or some shit and be like, that's my prize for everything I have done.
Guest:So I found it quite exhilarating.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that's a nice take on it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think to me, I sort of, yeah, I don't know.
Guest:You do it so much.
Guest:I was like, for me, I was like, I have to make this enjoyable.
Marc:So right away you knew that.
Marc:Well, I mean, I find that about acting.
Marc:Because I didn't come up like that auditioning.
Guest:I just didn't.
Marc:But I always wanted to do the acting.
Marc:But what I find about it is like, if I can do this okay, I'm okay at it.
Marc:But how do I make it interesting enough to be waiting around for three hours?
Guest:See, comedy to me is terrifying.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Maybe because I'm just not a comedian.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's just not my... Well, I mean, it's not a matter of scared or not scared.
Marc:It's just like, how am I not going to be bored all fucking day and aggravated that I'm still waiting around?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And how is the three minutes on camera going to be worth the day?
Yeah.
Marc:Do you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It sounds to me like the auditioning process for you is the most exciting part.
Guest:I will say that when I book a role, I'm like, what did I do?
Guest:What did I like?
Guest:How am I going to replicate that?
Guest:And so coming to set is definitely, I think, a balance of pain and creative ecstasy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I do miss the theater.
Guest:I do miss that...
Guest:that audience reaction, that, that engagement, um, you know, in some ways when you do theater, you rehearse, you rehearse, you rehearse.
Guest:But then when you're on stage, it's not the directors anymore.
Guest:It's not anybody's, it's the actors and the audiences.
Guest:And there's something quite like, yeah.
Marc:And also it's so about that.
Marc:Yeah, what's so present?
Marc:I mean, there's no time to be anxious.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Because you're in it.
Guest:And you're problem solving as you go and saving another actor's flub is so fun.
Guest:But I think I've now transitioned into, I find film sets also, it's just different.
Guest:It's just a different use of energy and different kind of bonding.
Guest:It is quite different.
Guest:It's just an adjustment.
Marc:It's weird, too, because you do these things that are very intense and there's a whole community to it.
Guest:And then when they're done, you're like, all right.
Guest:That is quite odd.
Guest:It's really weird.
Guest:I do feel very first day of school every set I go to.
Guest:And then three months in, you're like, best buds.
Guest:And then you move on.
Marc:And then you see someone five years later like, wow, I haven't seen you since we were like best friends.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:For six months.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But then I do think that that sort of like foundation does come through like you do have this sort of sacred like I've seen you at your worst because we did 16 hours together every day.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there's something very special about that.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, what about the Atlantic crew?
Guest:Yeah, again, I think, well, I think.
Marc:You guys had four years off.
Guest:Yeah, but because the show changed all of our lives so completely, there's this like spirit connection of we did this together and all of us changed because of it.
Guest:And so I think we kind of have this, I don't know, this bond.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:For sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's not like, you know, we have a connection, but we're not necessarily hanging out all the time in between shoots, and we do spend time together.
Marc:Lakeith's sort of a trip, right?
Guest:He's wonderful.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I think Darius and him are quite intertwined as individuals.
Guest:But I think Lakeith is just this very thoughtful, kind...
Guest:Yeah, I think just very sensitive individual.
Guest:And like on set is so gentle and it's just wonderful.
Marc:That role was sort of built for him.
Guest:I think it was built for him and he built it.
Guest:Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So yes, but I think that Darius and him are quite similar in energy and spirit for sure.
Marc:Yeah, I'm curious about that guy.
Guest:You should have him on your pod.
Marc:I've reached out.
Marc:I think we've tried.
Marc:I mean, I interviewed Donald a million years ago before he was... Oh, when did you interview him?
Marc:Probably just after Community.
Marc:And yeah, he was sweet and it was all ahead of him.
Mm-hmm.
Marc:And then he became huge.
Marc:I think he had done the first Childish Gambino record, and I can't remember what he was promoting when he was here, but he was a different guy.
Marc:We haven't done a lot of those kind of interviews, but he's a different dude now.
Marc:I interviewed Kevin Hart before he got big.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I've been doing this since 2009, and there's people who I've talked to who are now beyond huge.
Marc:And I don't know what their lives are like now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Do you feel like you're huge?
Marc:Me?
Marc:No.
Guest:You're pretty big.
Marc:I don't know if I am.
Marc:I keep it small.
Guest:What's your relationship to fame like?
Marc:I'm fortunate in that I'm a highly discoverable person.
Marc:of talent that most people in the world do not know who I am.
Marc:And that's fine.
Marc:I can still go to the supermarket and most of the people that know me know me really well if they listen to this thing.
Marc:So then it's sort of like they have this one-sided relationship that's far too intimate.
Marc:I'll see people, they're like, hey, did you get the toilet fixed?
Marc:I'm like, wow.
Marc:But I'm at a level where I can handle it, and I'm just trying to not be... It's a weird business, because I've been doing a comedy a long time.
Marc:I think I've been doing the best comedy I've ever done, but I'm not huge, but I'm okay.
Guest:How do you think the business has changed, I suppose?
Marc:Well, I mean, everybody can just sort of carve their own way that, you know, established show business doesn't mean as much as it used to.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think the idea of like the traditional celebrity has changed quite a bit.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And everybody's got their own little everyone exists in a bubble.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:If they're lucky.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like their own like Atlanta is a thing that some people love.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And they're crazy about.
Marc:But a lot of people are like, what is it on?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where is it?
Marc:You know, it's a weird reality.
Marc:Mm hmm.
Marc:That you can put all your life and energy into something and most people be like, I don't know if I get that channel.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think that I think can make, because things can be so much more niched.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that's the way everything is.
Marc:There are people making millions of dollars in show business in completely non-traditional way.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:There are YouTube people like, I don't know who the fuck they are.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm not even sure they're talented.
Guest:I think Twitch is like one of the biggest things now.
Marc:I don't know what is that.
Guest:What is that?
Guest:And it's big for like video game streaming where people just play and they just comment on their playing.
Guest:But I think it's one of the biggest things.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What's this got to do with the God particle?
Guest:Everything.
Guest:The God particle has made all of these things.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Well, I guess it's just... I have to say, watching Rick and Morty, I really believe that there are many universes.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:I just... I don't know.
Guest:Sometimes I think about the alternate Zussies and I'm like...
Guest:I hope she's doing all right.
Marc:I can't make my brain do that.
Marc:I'm barely holding on to this one.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Just the present thing.
Guest:Maybe letting go of that would be good.
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:Then there's a lot of crying.
Guest:Hold on to something.
Marc:So you shot all of that.
Marc:Atlanta's done for now.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Is this it?
Marc:Forever, yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:And you did, we're in The Bad Guys.
Marc:That was fun.
Marc:You were great in that.
Guest:Voice is fun.
Guest:Yeah, you did The Snake.
Guest:I was Diane.
Marc:Yeah, that's a great part.
Marc:Now, what have you shot lately with the live action stuff?
Marc:Any big ones?
Marc:Honestly, not much.
Guest:I have...
Guest:I guess I have Bullet Train coming out.
Guest:I don't know when that comes out, though.
Marc:What is that one?
Guest:So it's Brad Pitt, Brian Tyree Henry, who's in Atlanta.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:He's great.
Guest:I like that guy.
Guest:He's also in that.
Marc:Was he a comic guy?
Marc:No.
Guest:Just actor?
Guest:He actually got his big start on Broadway.
Guest:He was original Book of Mormon cast.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:That's funny.
Guest:Wasn't it?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's a comedic thing.
Guest:Yeah, that's a funny show.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And he's, so that's where he got sort of his big acting start and then obviously has now blossomed in film and television.
Guest:And many other people.
Guest:And that's sort of this, it's like a action comedy kind of film.
Marc:Okay, Bullet Train.
Guest:Bullet Train, yeah.
Guest:And then, what else do I have coming out?
Guest:I don't have anything coming out.
Guest:Atlanta season three and four are coming out.
Guest:But I've kind of just not really been on set recently.
Guest:I've just been, I'm trying to produce.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And me and my partner have been writing stuff, developing things.
Marc:You're a fiance partner or partner partner?
Guest:Both.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, partner, fiance is also partner in writing and developing stuff.
Marc:He's an actor, right?
Guest:Yeah, actor.
Guest:I met him.
Marc:I met him in New York at the restaurant.
Guest:Yeah, at the screening.
Guest:At the screening.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What's his name again?
Marc:David.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:And so we're doing a bunch of stuff together, trying to get things off the ground.
Marc:And that seems okay?
Marc:Does it make you fight?
Guest:It's made us fight, but I think...
Guest:Honestly, creatively, we have the same taste.
Guest:I've never overlapped with somebody's creative taste in the same way we do.
Guest:So, ultimately, we have a different way of going about things, but our opinions on what the thing should be is always exactly the same.
Marc:Oh, that's good.
Guest:So, yeah.
Guest:But I sometimes think it's actually good.
Guest:Like, he's a more...
Guest:I can be more like a laid back like I'm very into like mental health and like taking my time in my space and I can be slow to respond on stuff and he's sort of on it.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Very much.
Marc:How does that like how does he handle your anxiety when it's nap time?
Guest:Well, he knows me quite well and knows when I need it and is actually quite comforting.
Marc:What are you producing, though?
Marc:What is the plan?
Guest:What is the plan?
Guest:So he writes as well.
Guest:So he has a bunch of stuff he's written.
Guest:And we have a couple of things we've written together.
Guest:And some things we're like out to directors on now.
Guest:Some things we're about to pitch to some studios and are pitching and whatnot.
Guest:And then we're also developing something.
Guest:I don't know how, like, you know, I have to be all secretive.
Guest:Okay, that's all right.
Guest:But like developing something.
Guest:TV for TV.
Guest:TV, something with a studio right now.
Guest:That's good.
Guest:So, yeah, we're like, it's very outside of my comfort zone for sure.
Guest:But I think that's good.
Marc:But it's exciting.
Marc:You're engaged, doing things.
Guest:Yeah, and I think sort of the idea of writing or making things that I really want to be in.
Guest:Because you can get sent scripts, but that doesn't mean that there are always things that you're... Right, I mean, it's nice to create your own stuff.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that's the plan.
Marc:Create a thing that you can be in that you created and get back on the stage.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And do a German film in German, all German.
Guest:There you go.
Guest:You should be my manager.
Marc:I'm working on it.
Marc:I'll get on the phone right after we get done.
Guest:Good.
Guest:It's nice talking to you.
Guest:Yeah, you too.
Guest:Thanks.
Marc:Okay, folks.
Marc:Wait, I come out of that like, you know, well, that was lovely.
Marc:Season three of Atlanta is on Thursday nights on FX.
Marc:Streaming on Hulu.
Marc:Bad Guys, the movie we're both in, is out April 22nd.
Marc:Dig it.
Marc:Here's some heavy sounds.
Marc:Heavy tone.
Marc:I'm going to call this my tone.
Marc:I finally got it right.
Marc:Got the right amps hooked up.
.
.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey.
Marc:La Fonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.