Episode 1316 - Sam Jay

Episode 1316 • Released March 24, 2022 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it thanks for coming i don't know if you're new here or what doesn't matter everyone is welcome

00:00:27Marc:You know, in that pre-show plug there for my gala or gala gala in Montreal, I got to be honest with you.

00:00:35Marc:I spent years and years wondering if I would ever host a gala in Montreal.

00:00:42Marc:I have been on so many galas in Montreal between Montreal and some of the other franchise outposts of that festival.

00:00:49Marc:I've been on so much Canadian television doing comedy.

00:00:53Marc:At least five, four or five galas as just a comic.

00:00:59Marc:And I got to be honest with you, I've never seen a clip from one.

00:01:01Marc:I've never heard anyone react to one.

00:01:04Marc:No one has ever tweeted about them.

00:01:06Marc:I don't even know if they exist.

00:01:08Marc:Do you tape Canadian television?

00:01:10Marc:Then it just gets lost into the black hole of Canadian late night TV.

00:01:14Marc:I don't know if they're even shown.

00:01:16Marc:So my expectations about feedback or about it getting out in the world are low.

00:01:21Marc:But I got to be honest with you, I was always jealous, man.

00:01:23Marc:I was always like, why can't I do one?

00:01:25Marc:Why can't I do one?

00:01:26Marc:Because I don't think I could have sold tickets.

00:01:28Marc:I don't even know if I'll sell tickets now.

00:01:30Marc:Usually these hauls are huge.

00:01:31Marc:But I'm going to be doing it.

00:01:33Marc:I'll be hosting it and bringing up comedians.

00:01:35Marc:Finally, my time has come.

00:01:36Marc:They booked this two years ago, three years ago, whenever.

00:01:40Marc:And then COVID happened.

00:01:42Marc:But they kept the date.

00:01:44Marc:They kept the promise.

00:01:44Marc:So I'm going to be doing a gala at the Montreal Comedy Festival.

00:01:49Marc:And...

00:01:50Marc:I don't know.

00:01:50Marc:It's one.

00:01:51Marc:It's not a bucket list thing, but I certainly thought I deserved it when I didn't.

00:01:56Marc:So in that way, you know, I no longer gave a shit after a certain point.

00:02:01Marc:But when it when it came around, I'm like, yeah, great.

00:02:04Marc:I'm ready for that job.

00:02:06Marc:Nothing like deserving it when you didn't thinking like you deserved it when you don't.

00:02:11Marc:How do you not think that?

00:02:13Marc:You know what I mean?

00:02:14Marc:If you're going to get through life with any sort of confidence, you've got to think that you deserve it, even if you don't.

00:02:20Marc:And even even if people tell you, you don't.

00:02:22Marc:And even maybe later you think back on you like, I couldn't have done that job.

00:02:26Marc:I didn't deserve that.

00:02:28Marc:No fucking did not have the gravitas to do that thing.

00:02:32Marc:I thought I should have been able to do when I wanted to do it.

00:02:36Marc:But I guess that kind of entitlement, that kind of I don't know if it's arrogance, but that sort of stubborn insistence that you be reckoned with professionally because you want to and you're ready is some is some part of confidence.

00:02:52Marc:Obviously, it's also a part of insecurity and obviously a part of not knowing yourself very well.

00:02:59Marc:But I think all of those self-centeredness, all that stuff, I guess, is necessary on some level and persistence to succeed.

00:03:08Marc:You could also blow yourself out pretty early.

00:03:11Marc:Get prematurely bitter.

00:03:12Marc:I tried that.

00:03:14Marc:Prematurely bitter.

00:03:15Marc:I tried that angle for a while.

00:03:17Marc:It didn't quite stick.

00:03:18Marc:Listen, folks, listen to me.

00:03:19Marc:Today on the show, I have comedian Sam Jay.

00:03:22Marc:All right.

00:03:22Marc:Now, Sam Jay was a longtime writer for Saturday Night Live.

00:03:26Marc:She's on the new Peacock series, Bust Down.

00:03:29Marc:And she has her own late night show, Paws, with Sam Jay on HBO.

00:03:34Marc:I would see her at the comedy store when she was in town.

00:03:37Marc:And I swear to God,

00:03:38Marc:The woman did not talk to me.

00:03:41Marc:I didn't know if she didn't like me.

00:03:43Marc:We'd be in the green room together.

00:03:44Marc:Just the two of us could not just did not engage.

00:03:48Marc:Hi, how are you?

00:03:49Marc:Hi.

00:03:49Marc:But that was it.

00:03:50Marc:No conversation.

00:03:52Marc:And when she showed up here, I thought, well, this is going to be awkward because there's no way this person likes me.

00:03:58Marc:And she was a completely different person.

00:03:59Marc:We discussed it.

00:04:00Marc:That aside, I would like to say that this may be a fairly awkward white guy feeling interview for some of you.

00:04:11Marc:I don't know why I'm telling you that, but it was just it was one of those things where I'm like, I watched her show pause with Sam Jay.

00:04:17Marc:And it's really just it opens.

00:04:19Marc:I've watched three or four of them and they just open in.

00:04:22Marc:An apartment where it's like almost like this cocktail party salon type of thing with a bunch of primarily black people talking about black stuff.

00:04:33Marc:And it was one of those moments where I'm like, holy shit, I am really an old white guy because I I didn't know any of this stuff.

00:04:40Marc:I didn't know this conversation.

00:04:43Yeah.

00:04:43Marc:And because a lot of it's young people conversation, but a lot of it is issues that African-Americans face.

00:04:53Marc:And I just didn't I didn't know it because I'm not in the loop.

00:04:57Marc:I don't know if I could be in the loop unless I was young and black.

00:05:02Marc:But there was sort of an excitement that I had watching the show that I definitely brought into the interview.

00:05:09Marc:But I was not nervous, but I was trying to be forthright about my ignorance.

00:05:17Marc:And I didn't want to talk too much because God knows, you know, white guys have talked enough.

00:05:23Marc:I was excited and white.

00:05:25Marc:All right.

00:05:26Marc:That excited, nervous and white and maybe overcompensating.

00:05:32Marc:That's how I feel about it.

00:05:33Marc:But maybe maybe we'll see.

00:05:36Marc:We'll see how you feel about it.

00:05:37Marc:But I definitely enjoy talking to Sam Jay.

00:05:41Marc:Holy fuck.

00:05:43Marc:I was in a hotel room in Laconia, New Hampshire.

00:05:46Marc:And I decided to check in with the world via my TV in my room.

00:05:52Marc:And I was flipping around and I was on HBO2 maybe, one of the HBOs.

00:05:57Marc:And I was just in the, I clicked into the middle of a episode of Euphoria.

00:06:04Marc:And I didn't know what the fuck I was watching.

00:06:07Marc:I kind of heard about it, but I didn't know.

00:06:08Marc:I didn't read any press on it.

00:06:09Marc:I don't know, I'm getting further out of the loop.

00:06:12Marc:But Jesus, man, I watched four episodes of Euphoria in a row from the second season, having seen none of them.

00:06:18Marc:And I was like, have I never watched television before?

00:06:22Marc:Or better yet, is this what television is now?

00:06:25Marc:When did this happen?

00:06:26Marc:When did this become television?

00:06:28Marc:What the fuck am I watching?

00:06:30Marc:Holy shit.

00:06:32Marc:Did I feel like an old guy?

00:06:33Marc:Yeah.

00:06:35Marc:But within minutes, I felt like a dirty old guy.

00:06:37Marc:I was like, am I supposed to even be watching this?

00:06:40Marc:Is this what the kids are doing?

00:06:43Marc:Where the fuck?

00:06:44Marc:What is happening?

00:06:45Marc:It was like that, man.

00:06:47Marc:Is it like that?

00:06:47Marc:It was like that.

00:06:49Marc:Did I stop watching?

00:06:50Marc:No, I was like completely engaged.

00:06:55Marc:I just could not believe what I was watching.

00:06:57Marc:Drugs and sex.

00:06:59Marc:It was sweaty.

00:07:00Marc:That whole show is sweaty.

00:07:02Marc:But I really thought I had missed a decade or two.

00:07:05Marc:And then I realized this is the kind of show that this is why they hate us.

00:07:10Marc:If there's a reason why Hollywood...

00:07:13Marc:It's threatening.

00:07:15Marc:It's that show.

00:07:16Marc:They're like, look at what they're doing.

00:07:19Marc:Oh, my God.

00:07:20Marc:I'll tell you.

00:07:21Marc:I went back.

00:07:24Marc:I just started watching it from the beginning because I figured I can only handle one episode a day.

00:07:30Marc:It's so shattering and raw and fucking weird.

00:07:33Marc:And like, is that what high school is like now?

00:07:36Marc:And also like.

00:07:38Marc:If there's a balance being sought for decades, I guess since probably the 60s or 70s, of boobs, of TNA, tits and ass, and mercant vaginas on screen, well, this show is balancing out the cock factor.

00:07:57Marc:There's just a...

00:07:59Marc:Like an avalanche of dick in Euphoria.

00:08:03Marc:So I think there's an effort being made on behalf of Hollywood to balance the dick quota with about three or four decades of boobs and vaginas and asses.

00:08:14Marc:So now just full on dick.

00:08:16Marc:Full frontal dick.

00:08:17Marc:A lot of it.

00:08:18Marc:Apparently some of it is fake, but I mean, who cares?

00:08:21Marc:Doesn't really matter, does it?

00:08:23Marc:Dick's a dick, right?

00:08:24Marc:A lot of dick.

00:08:25Marc:Anyway, my mind was kind of blown by youth culture and by black youth culture in the last month.

00:08:34Marc:Before talking to Sam Jay from watching Paws, I learned some things and I felt like an old white guy.

00:08:40Marc:And from watching Euphoria, I learned some things and felt like just an old guy.

00:08:48Marc:And a slightly dirty old guy.

00:08:50Marc:Is that what the show's trying to do?

00:08:52Marc:To make us all feel a little dirty of a certain age?

00:08:57Marc:What are people doing with that show?

00:08:59Marc:How are people handling it?

00:09:00Marc:I gotta go do some research.

00:09:02Marc:Anyway...

00:09:04Marc:Look, I'm no prude, but wow, what is happening?

00:09:08Marc:What's going on in this world?

00:09:11Marc:So the first season of Bust Down, this is Sam's new show.

00:09:14Marc:Again, this is a show that seems funny.

00:09:16Marc:I'm not sure I understand it.

00:09:19Marc:And it's not a black thing.

00:09:20Marc:It's just an old guy thing, I think.

00:09:23Marc:Well, look, it takes me a minute sometimes with comedy, certainly with sketch or with absurd comedy, to figure out what the fuck is going on.

00:09:30Marc:But I get it.

00:09:31Marc:I usually get around to it.

00:09:32Marc:It hits me all at once.

00:09:34Marc:But the first season of Bust Down is now streaming on Peacock.

00:09:37Marc:Season two of Paws with Sam Jay is coming to HBO in May.

00:09:41Marc:You can stream all of season one on HBO Max.

00:09:45Marc:That's where euphoria is, too.

00:09:47Marc:I'm just saying.

00:09:49Marc:Be careful, though.

00:09:50Marc:It's going to turn your brain out, man.

00:09:53Marc:Anyway, I don't want to distract from this intro, but I will say this.

00:09:56Marc:Euphoria will turn your brain out.

00:09:59Marc:I mean, I don't think I'm ever going to be the same again.

00:10:02Marc:So this is me talking to Sam Jay.

00:10:11Sam Jay

00:10:14Marc:Nice to see you.

00:10:18Guest:It's nice to see you too, man.

00:10:20Marc:You look dressed up.

00:10:22Guest:Really?

00:10:24Marc:Everything matches.

00:10:26Guest:I just, you know, tried to just throw something more real quick.

00:10:28Marc:Oh, really?

00:10:29Guest:Something I didn't have to think about.

00:10:30Guest:Yeah.

00:10:31Marc:So how long are you in town for?

00:10:32Guest:I'm here till Wednesday.

00:10:34Marc:And you're just doing press for the new thing?

00:10:37Guest:Yeah, well, we're having a premiere party tonight for Bust Down.

00:10:41Marc:Yeah.

00:10:41Guest:So that's why I came in town.

00:10:42Guest:And then I've been wanting to do this, so we made sure this could happen while I was here.

00:10:46Marc:Oh, I'm glad it happened.

00:10:48Marc:I started to think, like, does she even like me?

00:10:49Marc:Is it?

00:10:50Marc:Like, I see at the comedy store, I couldn't get a read on anything.

00:10:53Marc:I'm like, I don't even know if she wants to talk to me at all.

00:10:57Guest:Yeah, everyone kind of picks up that vibe for me.

00:11:00Guest:Really?

00:11:00Guest:I'm hard to read, I guess.

00:11:01Marc:Really?

00:11:02Guest:Yeah.

00:11:02Guest:I didn't, you know, it's one of those things where you hear it enough that you're like, it must be true, but you don't think that's what you're giving off.

00:11:09Marc:Well, I mean, that must be just the zone you're in when you're out there doing that.

00:11:12Marc:Because I, you know, I watched several episodes of Paws, and I'm like, I never met that lady.

00:11:18Yeah.

00:11:19Marc:How come I never talk to that lady?

00:11:22Guest:Everybody says that.

00:11:23Guest:You're not the first person to say that.

00:11:25Guest:Really?

00:11:25Guest:Yeah.

00:11:27Marc:What do you think it is?

00:11:28Guest:I don't know.

00:11:28Marc:I mean... Because I only see you right before you're going on stage.

00:11:33Guest:Yeah, I think it's that.

00:11:35Guest:And then it's like with Paws, I'm really with my friends.

00:11:38Guest:Are they all your real friends?

00:11:39Guest:They're all like my real friends.

00:11:40Guest:At least this last season.

00:11:41Guest:I think it's going to be a little bit more mixed up this season.

00:11:43Marc:Really?

00:11:44Guest:But last season, they were all comics I was really cool with and people I actually knew.

00:11:47Guest:Yeah.

00:11:48Marc:It's so funny because I had some observations about, you know, because obviously after watching it and after my own sort of insecurity, I assume that, you know, I'm just not relevant to that conversation.

00:12:01Marc:And I probably I'm probably not.

00:12:03Marc:You know, I'm just another sort of, you know, cis middle age white guy trying to be relatively decent.

00:12:12Yeah.

00:12:12Marc:in the modern culture.

00:12:14Marc:So there's part of me that's always like, well, there's no reason for any of them to talk to me.

00:12:19Marc:And not by them, I mean you or black people, but just young people.

00:12:23Guest:I get what you say.

00:12:24Guest:You know what I mean?

00:12:24Guest:Yeah, for real.

00:12:25Marc:It's a whole generation of people.

00:12:26Marc:I don't know what the hell's going on with you guys.

00:12:28Guest:Yeah, I mean, I feel you because I look at my little cousins and I feel the same way.

00:12:32Guest:I'm like, I don't know.

00:12:33Marc:Really?

00:12:34Marc:What do you mean little?

00:12:35Guest:Like, you know, early 20s, you know, to mid 20s.

00:12:39Guest:I'm like, I don't know.

00:12:40Marc:There's already a big... I don't know.

00:12:42Marc:You know what I mean?

00:12:43Marc:No idea.

00:12:43Guest:I like, I can listen to it.

00:12:44Marc:Are you concerned?

00:12:46Guest:Not really.

00:12:47Guest:I feel like every generation figures it out for themselves.

00:12:50Marc:I guess, but like now it just, there just seems to be so much...

00:12:53Marc:So it's almost become tribalized.

00:12:55Marc:Like, you know, yeah, generationally, we all kind of figure it out.

00:12:58Marc:But culturally, it seems like things are like in some sort of fucked up shift.

00:13:03Marc:There's a fight on.

00:13:04Guest:There is.

00:13:05Guest:There's a little bit of a digging of the hills in the sand.

00:13:10Marc:Yeah, right.

00:13:10Marc:Happening.

00:13:10Marc:Yeah.

00:13:11Guest:Yeah.

00:13:12Marc:But when I see you and your friends, it's just so funny how there is a New York thing with certain people.

00:13:19Guest:Yeah, yeah, it's an East Coast thing.

00:13:20Guest:I think in Boston we got a little bit of that as well amongst the people of color.

00:13:24Guest:And then the whites in Boston, that's a whole nother bag of worms.

00:13:27Marc:I don't... Amongst the black people.

00:13:28Marc:Wait, you came up in Boston?

00:13:30Marc:I'm from Boston.

00:13:31Marc:You're from Boston?

00:13:32Marc:Yeah.

00:13:32Marc:Wow, where'd you grow up?

00:13:34Marc:Dorchester.

00:13:35Marc:Whoa, really?

00:13:36Marc:Yeah.

00:13:37Marc:Man, I spent a lot of time there.

00:13:39Marc:Yeah, I know.

00:13:40Marc:I came up there.

00:13:41Marc:I was having flashbacks just when I went on that road gig, driving to New Hampshire.

00:13:46Marc:I'm like, fuck.

00:13:47Marc:You like that feeling of driving to a gig where I don't even know what this is?

00:13:50Marc:What am I walking into?

00:13:51Marc:I don't know if you did that kind of stuff.

00:13:52Guest:No, for sure.

00:13:53Guest:I remember my first gigs in New Hampshire.

00:13:55Guest:Right.

00:13:56Guest:I was really desperate to do comedy.

00:13:58Marc:Who was booking it?

00:13:59Guest:Oh, this dude named Nick LaValle was booking everything.

00:14:02Guest:He had like the Shaft skiing and he had like another room.

00:14:04Guest:And I was desperate to just do stand up.

00:14:07Guest:Boston's very white.

00:14:08Guest:So there also wasn't a lot of black people.

00:14:09Marc:Weird white.

00:14:10Guest:Doing stand up.

00:14:11Guest:Yeah.

00:14:11Marc:It's a unique white up there.

00:14:13Guest:Yeah.

00:14:13Guest:So I ended up cool with a lot of like white boys, but not really cool.

00:14:17Guest:We were just like cool by necessity of us all trying to do it there.

00:14:20Guest:And I'm in my first trip to New Hampshire.

00:14:22Guest:I'm riding in a car with this white boy I barely know.

00:14:24Guest:And it's just getting darker and woodsier.

00:14:26Guest:And I'm like, what the fuck am I doing?

00:14:29Guest:Like,

00:14:29Guest:This is crazy.

00:14:31Marc:I used to feel that by myself.

00:14:33Marc:It had nothing to do with color.

00:14:35Marc:It was just me panicking, like, is this even a real place, this gig?

00:14:39Guest:And then you don't know what you're going to get.

00:14:40Guest:You're going to get a room for, like, New Hampshire people.

00:14:42Marc:Nothing.

00:14:42Guest:You don't know nothing.

00:14:43Guest:And then I'm going to get up there and do my thing.

00:14:45Marc:Right.

00:14:45Guest:It's like, how is that all going to go?

00:14:46Marc:Right.

00:14:46Marc:Yeah, well, that's how I learned.

00:14:49Marc:But I did feel that panic when I was driving from Troy, New York to Laconia, New Hampshire.

00:14:55Marc:I went into a spiral where I text my agent.

00:14:58Marc:I'm like, how the fuck did you even find this gig?

00:15:00Marc:What the fuck am I doing?

00:15:01Marc:I'm beyond this.

00:15:03Marc:But then I got there and it was a nice little theater.

00:15:06Marc:They were there to see me.

00:15:07Marc:That's the difference.

00:15:09Marc:It wasn't just some random comedy night.

00:15:11Marc:It's some dump.

00:15:12Marc:So you were born in Boston?

00:15:13Guest:I was born in Georgia, but I moved to Boston before I was even a year old.

00:15:17Guest:I don't remember even living in Georgia.

00:15:19Marc:So your family moved there?

00:15:21Guest:My mom sent me up.

00:15:22Guest:It was a little bit of a crazy story.

00:15:23Guest:My dad passed away like maybe a month or two months after I was born.

00:15:27Guest:My dad had a heart attack.

00:15:28Guest:And then my mom ended up getting into this custody battle with his mom because she was trying to get custody of me to like.

00:15:33Marc:Your grandmother.

00:15:34Guest:Yeah.

00:15:34Guest:But I never met this woman my whole life.

00:15:36Guest:But she was trying to get custody of me to like get the money my dad had left me.

00:15:39Marc:So it wasn't because she cared?

00:15:42Guest:No, and her and my dad never had a real relationship.

00:15:44Guest:So my mom, out of fear of the way George was kind of backwards, she sent me to Boston while she fought the case.

00:15:52Guest:And I lived with my grandmother and my aunt while I was a baby.

00:15:57Guest:And then once the stuff was all over, her and my brothers came up to Boston.

00:16:00Marc:How many brothers?

00:16:01Marc:Two.

00:16:01Marc:Oh, and it was in Dorchester?

00:16:03Guest:Yeah.

00:16:04Marc:At that time, so what part of Dorchester?

00:16:07Marc:Towards Columbia Point?

00:16:09Marc:No.

00:16:09Guest:Nah, like tours, Mattapan.

00:16:11Marc:Is that still there?

00:16:12Marc:Mattapan, right.

00:16:12Guest:Like tours, Mattapan, Blue Alive, Franklin Park.

00:16:15Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:16:17Marc:I went to school in Milton for a year, so it was right on Mattapan.

00:16:21Marc:But like, I've never been to, honestly, a more segregated city in my life.

00:16:25Guest:yeah have you no it's been it's weird and like i was just home because we're shooting a episode of pause yeah in boston this season and it was a little uh embarrassing not i'm not gonna lie because i'm so used to it but watching other people navigate it and be like how do you then it was like damn yeah this is kind of fucked up but i'm so used to it right it's like you don't clock it till you with a bunch of people who aren't

00:16:51Marc:And what was their reaction to what?

00:16:53Guest:They just, you know, like the teamsters that were driving the car were pretty racist.

00:16:57Guest:And they were, you know, we're doing stuff in the neighborhoods I grew up in.

00:17:00Guest:And they were saying stuff like, oh, you might want to duck.

00:17:02Guest:And are you sure you want to shoot here?

00:17:04Guest:And you don't know what's going to happen when the cameras come out.

00:17:07Guest:They might try to steal them.

00:17:08Guest:Just crazy stuff that's not like real.

00:17:10Guest:And then they just noticed how separated it was and just how the white people in Boston are.

00:17:15Guest:And it's like, this is all stuff I can shrug off and say.

00:17:18Guest:Just move through because I grew up like that.

00:17:20Guest:But to watch other people navigate it was a little bit like, damn, this sucks.

00:17:23Marc:Yeah.

00:17:24Marc:Well, I mean, when I was there, it was, I mean, I got used to it because I had to sort of roll with it because all the comics were kind of like Irish white dudes.

00:17:31Marc:And you got to, but I had this real paranoia of Irish dudes for a long time.

00:17:36Marc:Oh, really?

00:17:36Marc:Yeah, because I was just this aggravated, neurotic, angry Jewish guy running to these one-nighters, and I definitely wasn't the same as them.

00:17:45Marc:And you feel that difference even if it's that.

00:17:48Marc:And I was always a little nervous, but I grew to like a lot of the comics and learn a lot from them.

00:17:53Marc:But I did realize as time went on that that city really hides its black people.

00:17:58Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:17:59Guest:That's what I've always said about Boston.

00:18:00Guest:We live in a certain corner of the city, and if you don't know where we are, you'll never find us.

00:18:05Guest:It's crazy.

00:18:06Guest:It's really wild.

00:18:07Guest:Like, I used to work in, you know, black people usually work downtown, and then we go to our homes, you know, in Dorchester, Mattapan, Roxbury, or whatever.

00:18:14Guest:And I remember one time I was working, I worked at the aquarium at the time, and this black family, they were from Detroit, they walked up to me and they were like, yo, can we ask you a question?

00:18:22Guest:I was like, you want to know where the black people are, huh?

00:18:24Guest:And they were like, yes.

00:18:25Guest:And I was like, all right, this is what you got to do.

00:18:28Guest:You got to go here, here.

00:18:29Marc:Here's the map.

00:18:31Guest:Here's how you find us.

00:18:32Guest:They were like, because this is crazy.

00:18:34Guest:I was like, yeah, you know, but I don't even.

00:18:36Guest:It's another one of those moments where it's like, I don't think about it because I'm so used to it.

00:18:39Guest:But to people coming in, it probably looks nuts.

00:18:42Marc:But I guess, oddly, you know, that's the way it was, you know, always.

00:18:46Marc:And it was it wasn't different until years.

00:18:50Marc:But but Boston never really changed.

00:18:52Marc:I never like even New York.

00:18:54Marc:I mean, you have black neighborhoods, but that city feels integrated.

00:18:57Guest:Yeah.

00:18:57Guest:No, Boston doesn't feel like that.

00:18:59Guest:No, man.

00:18:59Guest:I always say it's Atlanta for white people.

00:19:01Guest:I've heard other people say it, too.

00:19:03Marc:Atlanta for white.

00:19:03Guest:Yeah, I've been saying it for a long time.

00:19:05Guest:It's Atlanta for white people.

00:19:06Marc:Well, there's this idea that it's some sort of progressive place, but it's that's only relative to the transient population of like 300000 students and colleges each year.

00:19:16Marc:I mean, in and of itself, it's pretty provincial and pretty New England.

00:19:19Guest:Yeah.

00:19:21Guest:I mean, I believe that New England is like the last white haven.

00:19:23Guest:You know what I mean?

00:19:24Guest:It's just like if you just want to be white and just only see that's where you go.

00:19:28Guest:You know what I mean?

00:19:29Guest:I used to do this joke.

00:19:30Guest:Or go to Ireland.

00:19:31Guest:A long time I used to do this joke in New Hampshire.

00:19:33Guest:Like, you know, it's white when the white people are pumping the gas.

00:19:35Guest:You know what I mean?

00:19:36Guest:Yeah.

00:19:36Guest:They don't even got black people working in the kitchen.

00:19:38Guest:It's like this is white through and through.

00:19:40Marc:Well, it's beat up, man.

00:19:41Marc:I mean, you drive through that state and it was like, wow.

00:19:44Marc:I mean, a lot of, you know, dead barns.

00:19:46Guest:It's not a lot going on, yeah.

00:19:47Marc:No, and you just feel the weight of it, the weight of the depression of it.

00:19:52Guest:That was one of the first times I got a homie from New Hampshire, his name's Justin Piger.

00:19:57Guest:And that's the thing I always talk about.

00:19:59Guest:White people be poor, bro.

00:20:01Guest:I feel like just as much as Boston hides black people, I feel like white people in general hide their poor.

00:20:06Marc:Well, that's why no one talks about class in this country.

00:20:10Guest:Yeah.

00:20:10Marc:It's because, you know, poor white people think they're just about to be rich.

00:20:13Guest:Yeah.

00:20:14Guest:And I'm like, white people be poor.

00:20:15Guest:Because I remember going to New Hampshire, bro.

00:20:17Guest:They was heating a house off of like a wood stove.

00:20:19Marc:It was crazy.

00:20:20Marc:Yeah.

00:20:20Guest:I was like, yo.

00:20:21Marc:Yeah.

00:20:22Marc:No, that's true.

00:20:23Marc:This is wild up here.

00:20:24Marc:So when did you start doing comedy?

00:20:26Marc:Did you go to school in Boston?

00:20:27Marc:What was the whole trip over there?

00:20:29Guest:Man, I graduated high school, of course, and then I went, I stayed there.

00:20:33Marc:In Mattapan?

00:20:34Guest:No, Roxbury, New Mission High School in Roxbury.

00:20:37Guest:And I stayed in Boston for like two years.

00:20:39Guest:And then I went away to Georgia to go to school.

00:20:44Guest:I tried comedy in those two years.

00:20:45Guest:I tried it like twice.

00:20:46Guest:In Atlanta?

00:20:48Guest:In Boston.

00:20:49Guest:Before I left, I tried it like two times.

00:20:51Guest:I went to that Dick Doherty's room.

00:20:55Guest:Dick Doherty.

00:20:56Guest:You're funny.

00:20:57Guest:You're insecure.

00:20:58Guest:That's what he said to me.

00:21:00Guest:You're insecure.

00:21:01Guest:It was...

00:21:02Guest:And then I went to Atlanta and my mom had passed when I was in high school, 16 and stuff.

00:21:07Guest:So then I went to Atlanta.

00:21:08Guest:I kind of spiraled out.

00:21:10Guest:I was like drinking too much and partying too much and not really going to school.

00:21:13Guest:And I wasn't really doing much of anything, working a bunch of odd jobs.

00:21:16Guest:But what was it like?

00:21:18Marc:Were you out and having fun?

00:21:20Guest:I came out in Atlanta about 24.

00:21:22Guest:Oh.

00:21:23Guest:Yeah, and then I was out having fun.

00:21:26Marc:Well, yeah, because Atlanta is a pretty good gay town.

00:21:28Marc:Black and gay, which is nice.

00:21:30Marc:Yeah, yeah, because when I used to stay there, there's that huge gay club right there in downtown that seemed like it was all black and all fun, like big lines outside of it.

00:21:39All black and all fun.

00:21:39Marc:I mean, I just see the lines going in.

00:21:42Guest:Downtown, was it Bulldogs?

00:21:44Marc:Maybe.

00:21:44Marc:It was right around the corner.

00:21:45Marc:Laughing Skull?

00:21:46Marc:It was kind of by Laughing Skull.

00:21:48Marc:Bulldogs, yeah.

00:21:49Marc:Yeah, it's on that street.

00:21:50Marc:One of the peach trees.

00:21:51Marc:Yeah, Bulldogs probably.

00:21:52Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:21:53Marc:But every time I looked, I was sort of like, wow, that's where it's happening.

00:21:58Marc:Yeah.

00:21:58Marc:I had a lot of fun in Atlanta.

00:22:00Marc:All right, so you tried it in Boston at the vault.

00:22:03Marc:Was it at Dick Daugherty's Comedy Vault?

00:22:05Marc:Yep, yep.

00:22:06Marc:And then you went down to Atlanta and you got all fucked up?

00:22:09Guest:got all fucked up what kind of jobs were you doing every dumb thing i worked at a starbucks bro i worked for the state doing taxes at one point i was like working for the census it was just like whatever i could do you know just flipping jobs hated everything i was doing and were you getting uh because your mom passed and you didn't know what you were doing so you're just rudderless and doing like did you how fucked up did you get was it like trouble fucked up

00:22:34Guest:It was bad for me.

00:22:36Guest:I think outside looking in, it was just like, oh, we don't know what's going to happen with this girl.

00:22:41Guest:Like, she's not really making anything of her life.

00:22:44Guest:But for me, it was dark because I knew how I was feeling and I was feeling real lost.

00:22:50Guest:You know what I mean?

00:22:50Guest:I knew internally what was happening with me.

00:22:52Guest:So it was real dark for me on my side of it.

00:22:54Marc:So you didn't know if you're going to get out or not?

00:22:56Guest:I didn't see a way out.

00:22:57Guest:It was like, yeah, I couldn't.

00:22:59Guest:You know what I mean?

00:23:00Guest:I couldn't see a way through it at all.

00:23:02Marc:A mixture of depression and just using shit.

00:23:05Guest:Depression and, you know, drinking too much.

00:23:09Guest:Yeah.

00:23:10Guest:feeling like I'm not living with any purpose and, and knowing that there is some purpose out there, but it's like, I can't touch it or see it.

00:23:18Guest:Right.

00:23:18Guest:It just, it just seems like I'll never get to it.

00:23:20Guest:So then it's like that hopelessness on top of that.

00:23:22Guest:It just like, I guess it's going to be my life.

00:23:24Guest:Just like doing things I hate for damn near no money to barely survive, to go back and do something.

00:23:30Guest:I hate it.

00:23:31Guest:Like really not seeing a way out of that and kind of giving up.

00:23:35Guest:Like, well, if this is it, then I might as well just get drunk and like,

00:23:38Marc:find the fun where I can because like this fucking sucks you know it's the worst because it's like it's just this when I started the podcast I was pretty down and I didn't know what I was gonna do or how it was gonna unfold and I thought like I couldn't sell tickets I was in my 40s and I was like fuck

00:23:53Marc:I'm going to be one of those guys doing those gigs.

00:23:58Marc:It's horrible because either you surrender to the disappointment and to the managing that or you're like, I'm fucking out.

00:24:07Marc:I'm going to kill myself.

00:24:07Guest:It's scary, bro.

00:24:08Guest:That's what I'm saying.

00:24:09Guest:People don't get it.

00:24:11Guest:What's the point of living?

00:24:12Guest:It's a low.

00:24:13Guest:It's a suicidal low.

00:24:16Guest:i wasn't you know i never attempted suicide but i definitely was feeling like yeah if i die i don't even care bro like i just i used to it felt pointless right i used to do a joke about that it's like i think about suicide all the time it's not because i want to kill myself i just find it relieving to know that i can if i have to yeah yeah yeah if it gets if it comes down to it i'm gonna do it when you're finding peace in that you know yeah you're in a bad spot

00:24:42Marc:Yeah, that's right.

00:24:43Marc:So what shifted?

00:24:44Marc:What changed?

00:24:45Marc:Was there a white light moment?

00:24:47Marc:Was there like, oh my God.

00:24:48Guest:I think it was like several fucking moments.

00:24:51Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:24:51Guest:It was just like seeing how my life was just going, you know, and just being like, I can't give up.

00:24:57Guest:I always, you know, God bless my mother.

00:25:00Guest:I think a lot of her lessons and things that she gave me when it was at his darkest hour, I was able to pull on them.

00:25:04Guest:Like what?

00:25:05Guest:To find myself.

00:25:06Guest:Just to like, honestly, just to believe in myself.

00:25:09Guest:And my mother's always tell me like, there's no shortcuts to life, you know?

00:25:13Guest:Like, you can't skip a step.

00:25:15Guest:And like,

00:25:17Guest:It's whatever it is, you're going to pull it from yourself.

00:25:19Guest:So if you don't achieve something, it's because of you.

00:25:22Guest:She never let me like lean on race or anything.

00:25:24Guest:And I'm not, I'm not knocking one.

00:25:26Guest:I'm just saying like, that's not how I was raised.

00:25:28Guest:It was just kind of like, yeah, it's going to be harder for you when things begin your way.

00:25:31Guest:But at the end of the day, you determine your life.

00:25:35Guest:And if you don't pull yourself up and do the shit, then it ain't going to get done.

00:25:39Guest:And you can only look at yourself to blame.

00:25:40Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:25:41Guest:Right, yeah.

00:25:42Guest:I was like just digging into those lessons and kind of seeing some shit come full circle.

00:25:46Guest:I ended up sleeping on the couch of a homie and they had a roommate that I never saw.

00:25:51Guest:But then the day I finally saw him, it was a dude who used to sleep on my couch.

00:25:54Guest:And so it's like, all right, we're having some some full circle moments that are really kind of fucked up right now.

00:25:59Marc:The sad full circle moment.

00:26:01Marc:Yeah, like this isn't good.

00:26:02Marc:You know what I mean?

00:26:03Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:26:03Guest:And just kind of these things that kind of pushed me in.

00:26:06Guest:A dude put a gun to my head.

00:26:08Marc:That sounds a transitional moment.

00:26:11Guest:And I was just kind of like, and I really thought I was going to die, you know?

00:26:15Guest:And I remember just feeling like...

00:26:17Guest:Bro, this can't be the Mario Johnson story.

00:26:21Guest:What was that about?

00:26:22Guest:Just a kid sticking up.

00:26:23Guest:My brother and I used to always play cards in his garage, and I think he thought it was a gambling house.

00:26:27Guest:And he just came in to rob it, grab me, and put a gun in my head.

00:26:31Guest:And he eventually just got scared and ran off.

00:26:34Guest:But I just remember being like, this can't be the tale.

00:26:37Guest:No.

00:26:38Guest:This can't be how it all goes down.

00:26:41Guest:So it was like little things, little things, little things that kind of just like got me up off my ass.

00:26:45Marc:And you decided to go back to Boston?

00:26:47Marc:Go back to Boston.

00:26:48Marc:You weren't doing any comedy down there in Atlanta.

00:26:50Guest:No, no, no, no, no, no.

00:26:52Guest:I tried it the year, like that...

00:26:55Guest:I have to do put a good on like that January, right around like that new year.

00:26:58Guest:I was like, I'm going to try this.

00:27:00Guest:And I was turning 28 and I was like, yeah, I'm going to try it.

00:27:03Guest:I tried it in Atlanta and I was like, okay.

00:27:05Marc:Punchline or Laugh and Skull?

00:27:07Guest:Starbar.

00:27:08Marc:I don't know.

00:27:09Guest:That was like right across the street from Laugh and Skull.

00:27:11Guest:It was this little open mic they do on like Mondays or something.

00:27:14Guest:And I was like, okay.

00:27:15Guest:I think this is it.

00:27:17Guest:But I was like, I can't do it in Atlanta because I did a lot of shit in Atlanta and I was doing music shit.

00:27:22Guest:And I just felt like people weren't going to let me redefine myself.

00:27:24Marc:Yeah.

00:27:25Guest:And be something else.

00:27:26Guest:And I just I wanted the space to figure out people you were hanging around with.

00:27:31Guest:Yeah.

00:27:31Guest:And I wanted space to just really figure out who I was in this thing.

00:27:34Marc:Sure.

00:27:34Guest:And plus, I just needed to go home and tap in with my family after my mother died.

00:27:37Guest:It was estranged and crazy.

00:27:39Guest:And I think that was a part of just people die.

00:27:41Guest:And I think families sometimes they come together and sometimes they go to their mutual corners.

00:27:45Guest:And my mom was kind of integral to my family and the core, the center of the wheel.

00:27:50Marc:Yeah.

00:27:51Guest:And it kind of just split us up in a way.

00:27:53Guest:And we were very close to the family.

00:27:54Guest:So it was super hard on me.

00:27:56Guest:Yeah.

00:27:56Guest:And so I just felt like also I feel like I could navigate Boston comedy.

00:28:01Guest:Yeah.

00:28:01Guest:I really thought about it.

00:28:02Guest:Once I really decided I want to do it, I was really like thinking about how I was going to execute it.

00:28:06Guest:Yeah.

00:28:06Guest:And I was like, well, I know home.

00:28:08Guest:I know I can get on trains and buses for fairly cheap to get to play.

00:28:11Guest:Like in Atlanta, I got to drive everywhere.

00:28:13Guest:I can't even afford a car.

00:28:14Guest:Yeah.

00:28:14Guest:So it's like if I really want to do this, I need to be in a city that I can get to these things.

00:28:18Guest:Yeah.

00:28:19Guest:I know I can get a job like Boston is pretty.

00:28:21Guest:You can get your shit together there.

00:28:23Guest:Right.

00:28:23Guest:Kind of easy.

00:28:24Guest:Yeah.

00:28:24Guest:So I knew I could get on my feet and get a job and be able to get to shows and do all that kind of stuff.

00:28:28Guest:And also I had my family there.

00:28:30Guest:So it's like there's only so far I'm going to fall and I can really kind of throw myself into this thing and really try it.

00:28:37Marc:They're not going to let you get lost again.

00:28:38Marc:Yeah.

00:28:39Marc:Yeah.

00:28:39Marc:So were they were they relieved when you came back?

00:28:42Marc:I think so.

00:28:43Guest:I think so.

00:28:44Marc:Where they were like, oh, we didn't know if you were going to.

00:28:46Guest:I think so.

00:28:47Guest:I think they were glad I was back.

00:28:48Guest:But then, you know, at first they just trying to force their agenda.

00:28:51Guest:You know, my aunt's trying to get me to drive the bus.

00:28:52Guest:Mom's been driving the T for like 30 years now.

00:28:55Guest:Well, they get worried, right?

00:28:56Guest:They're like, you got to get a pension.

00:28:58Guest:Yeah, get you a hospital job or get you a, you know, those are like the Boston jobs.

00:29:03Guest:Sure.

00:29:03Guest:or whatever but i was like i was really determined at that point to really try to do stand-up well that's interesting because now you can be you know your cafeteria lady on the show so you're able to do one of those jobs fictional yeah which was like fucking hell i'm not gonna lie it was it brought me back it was a little like at one point i had to take off that apron and i was like oh this sucks could have been it yeah i was like damn yeah

00:29:25Marc:It was crazy.

00:29:26Marc:So when you start doing it there, like I don't, in my life, in my generation, I can't really remember, I'm like, I'm really trying to remember any black comics from my generation.

00:29:39Marc:Like I'm coming up in Boston in the late 80s.

00:29:42Marc:And I really, I can't, I can't, I can't remember any.

00:29:45Marc:Isn't that fucked up?

00:29:47Marc:How many of them were there then for you and your crew?

00:29:51Marc:I mean, I know Patrice is from there, but who else is from there?

00:29:53Guest:Well, you know, there's like Corey Rodriguez and it was my homie Tawanda.

00:29:58Guest:It was Nick.

00:29:58Guest:Like we were out there, you know.

00:30:00Guest:It definitely was way more white dudes than us and they definitely were getting like the preference for sure.

00:30:07Guest:But we were there.

00:30:09Marc:You know what I mean?

00:30:09Marc:We were there.

00:30:10Marc:It's interesting to me that there's always been, even when I started, there was a world of black comedy that we didn't know about and it was full.

00:30:18Marc:And there was just two different worlds, man.

00:30:20Marc:And then you'd see it on TV and you'd be like, oh, my God, there's all these cats.

00:30:25Marc:But now even that's a little, I think, a little more integrated.

00:30:27Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:30:28Guest:A little more.

00:30:29Guest:A little more.

00:30:29Guest:And I think it's more like people stopped following the rules.

00:30:34Guest:Like...

00:30:35Guest:Black people stopped being like, oh, I got to go just do the black clubs.

00:30:38Guest:Like, no, I'm going to do every club.

00:30:40Marc:Did you do black clubs?

00:30:41Guest:Yeah, I did.

00:30:42Guest:There was one night a week that was a black night in Boston on Wednesdays at this bar called Slades in Roxbury that was running by this dude named Jonathan Gates.

00:30:50Guest:And he was actually the first person to tell me I was a headliner.

00:30:54Guest:He was the first person to pay me to do stand-up.

00:30:57Guest:He was the first person to really give me time, time on stage.

00:31:01Guest:Yeah.

00:31:01Guest:I remember he got a knee surgery and he left me his room.

00:31:03Guest:I was broke.

00:31:04Guest:I had just quit my job because I went to go do Bridgetown and they wouldn't give me the time off.

00:31:07Guest:So when I came back, I had nothing.

00:31:09Guest:He let me host his room.

00:31:11Guest:He let me host his room for like four weeks.

00:31:14Guest:Just took his room over.

00:31:15Guest:He paid me every week.

00:31:16Guest:Oh, that's great.

00:31:17Guest:So you can work out all that shit, get up and down.

00:31:20Guest:Yeah, it was really cool.

00:31:21Guest:It was really cool.

00:31:22Guest:And then I did all the other rooms, the Knicks and the comedy studios and all the other stuff as well.

00:31:26Marc:That was okay, the comedy studio.

00:31:28Guest:I did the white rooms first.

00:31:29Guest:I went to Slade last.

00:31:30Marc:Jenkins Room?

00:31:31Marc:Rick Jenkins.

00:31:32Marc:Wasn't that his?

00:31:33Marc:The comedy studio in Cambridge?

00:31:34Marc:Still his.

00:31:35Marc:Yeah.

00:31:35Marc:And Nick's.

00:31:36Marc:Nick's is different now, but when I was there, that was rough, man.

00:31:39Guest:You got to fight it out.

00:31:40Guest:Bro, Nick's is like... When we was doing it, man, in the winter, they would have a space heater on the stage because they wouldn't heat the... And they went downtown?

00:31:48Guest:Yep.

00:31:49Guest:It got crazy.

00:31:50Marc:It got bad, I guess.

00:31:51Marc:It got crazy.

00:31:53Marc:When I was there at the peak...

00:31:55Marc:In Boston, Nick's was running two or three shows in the same room, in the same building.

00:31:59Marc:Yeah.

00:31:59Marc:Because they had that nightclub downstairs and the main show went upstairs.

00:32:03Marc:And you could go back and forth.

00:32:04Marc:And there might have even been a third one.

00:32:05Marc:Nah.

00:32:06Marc:And then there was like one in the Kowloon.

00:32:09Marc:But that's still, I think that just closed.

00:32:11Guest:Kowloon?

00:32:11Guest:No, we just was there.

00:32:12Guest:I just took the crew there to eat when we were up there scouting for pause.

00:32:15Marc:Well, I mean, is there still a comedy show?

00:32:17Marc:Yeah, I think so.

00:32:18Marc:It's a big room, man.

00:32:19Marc:They still had it like set up.

00:32:20Guest:Did you play that one?

00:32:20Guest:Never.

00:32:21Guest:That lady didn't like me.

00:32:22Marc:Oh, shit.

00:32:23Guest:Nope.

00:32:24Marc:The woman who booked the Knicks?

00:32:25Marc:Did you ever do Mike Clark's room?

00:32:27Marc:No.

00:32:27Marc:Giggles?

00:32:28Marc:You ever do Giggles?

00:32:29Marc:No.

00:32:29Guest:I left before I got, like, he started to know who I was and then I, like, moved type of thing.

00:32:34Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:32:35Marc:But you did do the one-nighters, huh?

00:32:36Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:32:37Guest:Yeah.

00:32:37Guest:I mean, I was definitely there doing comedy.

00:32:40Marc:So how long were you doing it there?

00:32:42Guest:I was in Boston maybe two, three years.

00:32:44Marc:Okay.

00:32:45Marc:So you got some time together?

00:32:46Marc:Yep.

00:32:47Marc:And you got your chops?

00:32:48Marc:Yep.

00:32:49Marc:And then you went to New York?

00:32:50Marc:I went to LA.

00:32:51Marc:Oh, you came here first?

00:32:52Marc:Yeah.

00:32:52Marc:Did you get beat up or what happened?

00:32:55Marc:Did it chew you up, spit you out?

00:32:57Guest:In LA?

00:32:58Marc:Yeah.

00:32:58Guest:No.

00:32:59Marc:That first time?

00:32:59Marc:No?

00:33:00Marc:You did all right?

00:33:00Guest:No, I did all right.

00:33:01Guest:I came to LA and things kind of moved fairly quickly when I got here.

00:33:06Marc:So it's not a bad LA story?

00:33:07Guest:No, no, no.

00:33:09Guest:It was like a scene of young people and it was dope.

00:33:13Guest:The energy was dope.

00:33:15Marc:What was your entree into LA?

00:33:18Marc:Did you do Montreal?

00:33:21Marc:Were you known?

00:33:22Marc:Were people already...

00:33:23Guest:I was doing, I did Bridgetown.

00:33:25Guest:That was my first festival.

00:33:27Guest:And at the time, Bridgetown was a big festival, especially for West Coast.

00:33:32Guest:The one in Portland?

00:33:33Guest:The one in Portland, because all the reps and stuff from Cali, LA would just go up there.

00:33:38Marc:Oh, so that was because all the other festivals got turned out.

00:33:42Marc:Like everybody knew who everybody was and there was no real reason to go to Montreal other than for agents to get fucked up with producers.

00:33:48Guest:Yeah.

00:33:49Marc:So Bridgetown was sort of like, we don't know any of these people.

00:33:52Guest:Yeah, it was like, who's the new people?

00:33:54Marc:So that was happening.

00:33:55Marc:And there was all those weird bars that you would play in.

00:33:57Marc:I remember doing Bridgetown and we were on a patio and it was raining and it was leaking through them.

00:34:03Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:34:03Guest:It's a wild time.

00:34:04Guest:We're doing like parking lot shows and then like a show in front of a taco truck and then like a show inside.

00:34:10Guest:And then like, yeah, but I was having a blast.

00:34:12Guest:You know what I mean?

00:34:13Guest:And that's where I met my manager.

00:34:14Guest:And it was a lot of like Comedy Central people there.

00:34:17Marc:Who's the manager?

00:34:18Guest:Kara Baker at Avalon.

00:34:19Marc:I'm at Avalon.

00:34:20Marc:Yeah.

00:34:20Marc:I know Kara.

00:34:21Guest:I love her.

00:34:22Guest:She's the best.

00:34:23Guest:And so we did all that.

00:34:25Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:34:26Guest:And there was a lot of West Coast comics there, so I just made a lot of connections that way.

00:34:30Guest:Like, who'd you meet?

00:34:33Guest:Jack Knight.

00:34:33Marc:Oh, you met Jack there?

00:34:34Guest:I met Jack at Bridgetown.

00:34:36Guest:Yeah.

00:34:36Guest:Yep.

00:34:37Marc:Where'd she come from?

00:34:38Guest:Seattle.

00:34:38Marc:Oh, wow.

00:34:39Marc:Okay.

00:34:39Guest:Yeah, I met Jack there.

00:34:41Guest:I met Norrie Davis, who lives in New York.

00:34:43Guest:I met Taylor Thomason there.

00:34:46Guest:I met so many people there.

00:34:48Guest:Tone Bell.

00:34:49Guest:I met Clayton English.

00:34:50Guest:I met so many people at Bridgetown.

00:34:52Guest:Dulce Sloan.

00:34:54Guest:And so after that, I just was like, well, it seems like L.A.

00:34:57Guest:is where I can kind of

00:34:58Marc:move around you know and also I felt like New York was too close to Boston and I was gonna go home a lot yeah and just in like lean on a crutch and I just wanted to be somewhere where I had to like figure it out but it must have been a relief to see all these different people and to see comedy thriving on all different levels coming from all different points of view because like the one thing about coming up in Boston or even growing up in Boston is it's a box yep and it's limited and then to go out there and just be like holy shit you know this is all happening

00:35:24Guest:Yeah.

00:35:25Guest:It felt like, oh, here's a chance to really take a huge step that could change some shit for you.

00:35:30Marc:That's good.

00:35:31Marc:So you really had it together enough to make those decisions.

00:35:33Marc:That's good.

00:35:34Guest:I was older, though.

00:35:34Guest:You know, I always occurred I was just older.

00:35:37Guest:At that point, I'm 29.

00:35:39Guest:You know what I mean?

00:35:40Guest:I got some sense about myself, just period.

00:35:42Marc:Yeah.

00:35:43Marc:So you go to L.A.?

00:35:44Guest:Go to L.A.

00:35:45Guest:I get Comics to Watch, Comedy Central's Comics to Watch at New York Comedy Festival, maybe like three months into being in L.A.

00:35:52Guest:So I go out there to do that.

00:35:53Guest:I do well at that.

00:35:54Guest:Then I get the call to do Montreal, maybe.

00:35:57Marc:New Faces?

00:35:58Guest:Yep.

00:35:59Guest:Maybe a few months later from that, I do New Faces.

00:36:02Guest:I had a really good showing at New Faces.

00:36:04Guest:Yeah.

00:36:05Guest:So I was only in LA two years.

00:36:06Guest:Then some people from SNL saw me there.

00:36:09Guest:They asked me to audition in LA.

00:36:11Guest:I auditioned in LA.

00:36:12Guest:Then they flew me out to New York to audition in front of Lauren.

00:36:14Guest:I did.

00:36:15Guest:Then they called me and asked me if I wanted to have a writing job.

00:36:18Guest:So I was like, oh, they must think I'm ugly and fat.

00:36:20Guest:But they think I'm funny enough.

00:36:22Guest:To do something.

00:36:25Guest:So I took the job.

00:36:27Guest:But were you a character person?

00:36:28Guest:No, I wasn't.

00:36:29Guest:I just did stand-up.

00:36:30Guest:And at the end of the day, at some point, we were talking about me moving the cast and then some other things happened or whatever.

00:36:36Guest:But I always felt like that was their intention.

00:36:38Guest:And they were very forward of like, we just want you to learn the system and figure it out.

00:36:42Marc:So tell me how that went, the process of SNL.

00:36:47Marc:Because I talk to people about that.

00:36:49Marc:So who calls you to offer you the writing job?

00:36:52Marc:Kenward, Eric Kenward.

00:36:54Marc:Okay.

00:36:54Marc:And when do you meet Lauren?

00:36:57Guest:Like really actually meet Lauren?

00:36:58Marc:Yeah.

00:36:59Marc:I don't know, man.

00:37:00Marc:Did you already have the job or did you have to go meet him to talk about that?

00:37:03Guest:No, no, no, no.

00:37:04Guest:I think you go, right?

00:37:06Guest:I went.

00:37:08Guest:You still have to like sit with him.

00:37:09Guest:Right.

00:37:09Guest:You have to sit at the desk and he kind of like talks to you about your future and your life.

00:37:14Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:37:14Guest:Yeah.

00:37:15Guest:You did that.

00:37:16Guest:Did that thing.

00:37:17Guest:And how was that?

00:37:17Guest:It was cool.

00:37:18Guest:Did you make you wait?

00:37:20Guest:Of course.

00:37:21Yeah.

00:37:22Guest:Why is that such a thing?

00:37:24Guest:Of course.

00:37:24Guest:How many hours?

00:37:25Guest:How many hours?

00:37:26Guest:Ah, man.

00:37:27Guest:I don't want to lie, because Lauren, I love me some Lauren.

00:37:30Guest:Okay.

00:37:30Guest:Don't get me wrong.

00:37:30Guest:Sure.

00:37:31Guest:But it was over two.

00:37:33Yeah.

00:37:35Guest:It was over two hours for sure.

00:37:37Marc:But you knew that going in.

00:37:38Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:37:39Marc:Was anyone sort of advising you, you know, going into that?

00:37:43Guest:Well, at the time I was at ICM and I had an agent named Ayala Cohen who, she was very, she used to work there.

00:37:49Guest:Yeah.

00:37:49Guest:So she was super familiar with the process.

00:37:51Guest:Right.

00:37:51Guest:So she was, she kind of held my hand through it.

00:37:53Guest:And I thank God for her, for real.

00:37:55Guest:Cause there was some times where that show like was breaking me and I'd be like, argh.

00:38:00Marc:Like Cal though.

00:38:00Marc:So, okay.

00:38:00Marc:So you meet with Lauren, you get the job, you take the gig.

00:38:03Marc:Who's the cast?

00:38:03Marc:What year is this?

00:38:04Guest:Um, Chris Redd's first year.

00:38:06Guest:Me and Chris were friends before.

00:38:08Guest:Oh, you were from comedy?

00:38:09Guest:So we went to SNL together.

00:38:10Guest:Yeah.

00:38:10Guest:Okay.

00:38:11Guest:We both were living in L.A.

00:38:12Guest:and we moved to New York at the same time.

00:38:15Guest:Called each other like, did you get it?

00:38:16Guest:I got it type of shit.

00:38:18Guest:Yeah, okay.

00:38:18Guest:So Chris Redd, this is Chris Redd's first year.

00:38:22Guest:Yep.

00:38:23Guest:Who, 80's there, of course.

00:38:25Guest:Uh, what's call it?

00:38:29Guest:Uh, Che's there, of course.

00:38:30Guest:Katie's there, of course.

00:38:31Guest:Kate's there, of course.

00:38:33Uh-huh.

00:38:33Guest:There was some, Luke Knoll's first year.

00:38:36Guest:Luke Knoll's first year.

00:38:38Marc:So what'd you learn going in?

00:38:39Marc:What was your approach?

00:38:42Guest:I just, I kind of approached it like you approach standup, right?

00:38:45Guest:Just like get in, try to get in where you fit in, be observant.

00:38:50Marc:Did you latch on to like figure out how to write for people?

00:38:54Guest:I didn't know how to do anything.

00:38:55Guest:I'd never written before.

00:38:56Guest:It was my first writer's job.

00:38:58Guest:And I'd never written a sketch.

00:38:59Guest:How the fuck did you get the job then?

00:39:02Guest:I don't know.

00:39:03Marc:Wild.

00:39:06Guest:I did some stand-up.

00:39:07Marc:Yeah.

00:39:08Marc:That's interesting, though, that you've never written a... You don't come from sketch.

00:39:12Marc:You come from stand-up.

00:39:13Marc:I wonder, do you ever think about what bits, what did they see that made them believe that this person's a sketch writer, she just doesn't know it yet?

00:39:22Guest:I don't know, man.

00:39:23Guest:That's some of... Some people love to hate him, but I really think that's the brilliance of Lorne Michaels.

00:39:29Guest:He knows who can do it.

00:39:32Marc:No one hates him on the mic.

00:39:34Guest:He has a good sense of...

00:39:36Guest:who can do it?

00:39:37Marc:You know what I mean?

00:39:38Marc:Did you feel like you got the hang of it?

00:39:40Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:39:42Guest:I mean, I wrote there for three years.

00:39:43Guest:So by like, the first year, hell, you know?

00:39:47Guest:And it wasn't really until the end of the first season that I was like, oh, I think I get how to do this in some kind of way.

00:39:53Guest:You know what I mean?

00:39:55Guest:And then by season two, by the middle, and I had kind of really connected with the dude, my writing partner there, Gary Richardson, and we had really figured out a flow and a style.

00:40:03Marc:Was it you guys decided on the partnership?

00:40:06Marc:You just came together?

00:40:07Guest:It just kind of came together.

00:40:08Guest:We were the only two black writers at the time, me and Gary.

00:40:12Guest:And one day we got our residuals.

00:40:14Guest:It was like the middle of the first season and we got residual checks.

00:40:17Guest:And I didn't even know about these residual checks.

00:40:19Guest:I had no idea.

00:40:21Guest:And this lady just came and threw a bunch of free money on my desk.

00:40:23Guest:And I was like, oh, shit.

00:40:24Guest:shit this is fucking crazy and gary came in my office and he was like yo did you it was like our first time jamming he was like do you want to try to jam on this thing i was like yeah and he was like also bro they just giving niggas money and i was like yeah okay you a real nigga too all right we could probably figure something out this crazy right and we kind of just connected in that moment yeah like two black people like this is fucking wild that it just from there kept flowing and then once i figured that out and really found my sketch voice

00:40:52Guest:and learned how to cast sketches, because all that stuff is a part of it.

00:40:55Marc:So you actually act as your own segment producer?

00:40:58Guest:Yeah, 100%.

00:41:00Guest:Che taught me a lot, too, when I was drowning.

00:41:03Marc:What was the drowning?

00:41:05Marc:What brought that on?

00:41:06Guest:Just being bad at it, man.

00:41:08Guest:I don't know how to write sketches.

00:41:09Guest:And then they go to the table and they get read out loud and they ask, you know, and all you hearing is the pages turn.

00:41:16Guest:You know what I mean?

00:41:16Guest:And you're feeling a little embarrassed and like people are killing because they know what they're doing.

00:41:22Guest:And you're just like, am I ever going to figure out how to fucking do this?

00:41:26Guest:Taking the hits.

00:41:27Guest:Yeah.

00:41:27Guest:Chris is also like a peer of mine.

00:41:29Guest:We just stand up together, chase a peer.

00:41:30Guest:So I'm failing in front of my fucking friends.

00:41:33Guest:Yeah.

00:41:33Marc:And Shay, what, reached out or he stepped out of that?

00:41:37Guest:He just talked to me one day.

00:41:39Guest:He was like, yo, just just pay attention to the table.

00:41:41Guest:He's like, you're not doing bad.

00:41:43Guest:You know, it feels like you're doing terrible.

00:41:45Guest:But he's like, you're not doing bad.

00:41:46Guest:You know, like it ain't it.

00:41:48Guest:But it ain't bad.

00:41:50Guest:He's like, but, you know, when you're not getting shit on, don't get caught up in not getting shit on.

00:41:55Guest:Just pay attention to the table.

00:41:56Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:41:57Guest:And listen and watch and listen to what sketches are working.

00:42:00Guest:So I started doing that and I started, like, keeping the sketches I liked that were working and reading them again and figuring out, like, moves and, like, also figuring out who likes what.

00:42:09Guest:Figuring out how to cast.

00:42:10Guest:Like, oh, Kate's really strong in these type of characters.

00:42:13Guest:80s, because that also could fuck your sketch up.

00:42:14Guest:I was casting my sketches all wrong.

00:42:16Guest:Right.

00:42:16Guest:I was just throwing names out.

00:42:17Guest:I wasn't thinking about the person and how they were going to do it.

00:42:21Marc:So yeah, so you're learning how all levels of the production work.

00:42:27Marc:Casting, understanding people's limitations and where their strengths are, how to tag a sketch.

00:42:33Marc:Okay, so it's all coming together.

00:42:34Guest:Yeah, it's just all coming together.

00:42:36Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:42:37Guest:And then also once I separated myself from trying to beat it, I think that's how it gets a lot of people.

00:42:41Guest:People going and they're like, I'm going to...

00:42:43Guest:fucking beat this thing it's like now you're just really a cog in the wheel of a thing that's gonna keep going with or without you yeah and then I started to just try to figure out how to be useful right so if I didn't get a sketch on I still help other people with their sketches or I'll watch the sketches and be like yo I saw this thing or I knew you wanted it to look like this but it didn't look like this it kind of came off like yeah yeah just figured out ways to be useful within the thing the community and the community and then those people would help me and like it kind of like

00:43:10Marc:Yeah, it's like when someone comes up to you, it's like, you take tags?

00:43:14Marc:I got a tag for you.

00:43:15Marc:You want a tag?

00:43:15Marc:Yeah.

00:43:16Marc:You're like, what is it?

00:43:17Marc:Oh, that's good.

00:43:17Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:43:19Guest:It's the same thing that's coming.

00:43:20Guest:I just, I had to learn how to play with them, you know, because I'm not an improviser and they have a lot more energy and they're a lot more cheery than like us, you know?

00:43:29Marc:But you're engaged.

00:43:30Guest:Yeah, but I just didn't know how to...

00:43:33Guest:I know how to riff with comics.

00:43:34Guest:I didn't know how to do the thing with them.

00:43:36Guest:Collaborate with people.

00:43:38Guest:I didn't know how to do it.

00:43:39Guest:Yeah, we're not collaborators.

00:43:40Guest:So I would like write shit and then like Beck would come up to me in the hall and be like, Sam.

00:43:45Guest:And he'd just start doing a voice and I'd just be looking at him like, nigga, what the fuck is you doing?

00:43:49Guest:Like, I don't.

00:43:50Guest:Go ahead.

00:43:51Guest:Do whatever like if that's what you want to do do it.

00:43:53Guest:Yeah, and I didn't realize he needs me to like give him something so he can learn like oh This is how they play and it's how they figure out how to do that.

00:44:00Marc:Give me something to work with.

00:44:01Marc:Yeah, I would just be staring like I guess bro They're looking for support and leadership.

00:44:07Marc:Yeah, I'm like this nigga weird You figured it out which were your big sketches

00:44:17Guest:Oh, wow.

00:44:19Guest:The John Mulaney cha-cha slide sketch that I wrote with Brian Tucker.

00:44:23Marc:Yeah.

00:44:25Marc:Tucker's been there forever.

00:44:26Guest:Yeah.

00:44:27Guest:The Chadwick Boseman Black Panther Black Jeopardy.

00:44:31Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:44:33Guest:Eddie Murphy Black Jeopardy.

00:44:35Marc:Did you get to meet Eddie and deal with Eddie at all?

00:44:38Guest:Yeah.

00:44:39Guest:That was crazy.

00:44:40Guest:That was a crazy week.

00:44:42Marc:Did you look up to that guy?

00:44:43Guest:Of course.

00:44:44Marc:Who were your comic heroes?

00:44:45Marc:In a major way.

00:44:47Guest:In a major way.

00:44:48Guest:I don't know.

00:44:49Guest:I was born in 82.

00:44:49Guest:I don't know a black kid in the 80s who didn't think that he was fucking God.

00:44:54Guest:Eddie Murphy, my aunt called me like, are you crying?

00:44:57Guest:Because I know you guys dislike your God.

00:44:59Marc:Yeah.

00:45:00Marc:And you got him at a good time.

00:45:01Marc:He's kind of nice, sweet.

00:45:02Guest:Yeah, he's chilling.

00:45:03Guest:It was really cool to have a job in common with Eddie Murphy where he was like sitting in the office being like, this is how my office was set up and talking about the show.

00:45:12Guest:And like, is it still like this?

00:45:13Guest:And do this?

00:45:14Guest:This still happened?

00:45:15Guest:We're like, yeah, they still do that, but they don't do this.

00:45:17Guest:And like, it was like, this is like crazy.

00:45:19Marc:It's wild, right?

00:45:20Marc:Yeah, and you know what's amazing about him?

00:45:22Marc:And I think it probably...

00:45:24Marc:You probably saw it a lot, though, because there's a few people on SNL that can do that, is how easily he can turn on the funny part.

00:45:30Marc:He doesn't exist in it, but if he needs it, he throws a switch and it's there.

00:45:36Marc:Old Eddie is right there.

00:45:39Marc:That time he hosted, it was crazy.

00:45:41Marc:Yeah.

00:45:42Marc:That sketch at the end, what was it, a hurricane sketch?

00:45:44Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:45:45Guest:It was crazy.

00:45:46Guest:With the elf, yeah.

00:45:47Guest:Because he was just like old Eddie.

00:45:48Guest:Yeah, he was gone.

00:45:49Marc:I interviewed him, and it was hilarious.

00:45:50Marc:I was so happy to make him laugh.

00:45:52Marc:That was the best part.

00:45:53Guest:He was going crazy, yeah.

00:45:54Guest:It was amazing.

00:45:55Marc:Yeah.

00:45:56Marc:So you were there for three years, and how did you exit?

00:45:59Guest:I got another job.

00:46:01Guest:I got my own show.

00:46:02Guest:I got my own late night show.

00:46:03Marc:The pause?

00:46:04Guest:Yeah.

00:46:04Guest:And so I left to do that.

00:46:06Marc:How did that unfold?

00:46:07Marc:Did you pitch it?

00:46:09No.

00:46:09Guest:No.

00:46:11Guest:I know.

00:46:11Guest:I had this weird... I hate telling these stories because it comes off so... I have this weird luck when it came to comedy.

00:46:17Guest:Stuff just worked out.

00:46:19Marc:It's not luck if you can deliver the goods.

00:46:21Guest:It's just worked out in a weird way.

00:46:22Guest:But I did my special, 3 in the morning.

00:46:26Guest:For HBO?

00:46:27Guest:For Netflix.

00:46:28Guest:Okay.

00:46:28Guest:And it was about to come out, and people were talking about it a little bit, industry-wise.

00:46:36Guest:And my manager kind of leaked it to Prentice Penny's people who had an overall deal with HBO, and he was trying to develop a late-night show, and he needed a voice on his late-night show.

00:46:48Guest:And she was like, I think Sam could be perfect for this.

00:46:50Guest:They showed him a special.

00:46:52Guest:Prentice's agent loves a special show.

00:46:53Guest:Prentice is special.

00:46:54Guest:He was like, I love this.

00:46:55Guest:I want to meet her.

00:46:56Guest:Me and Prentice met.

00:46:57Guest:We talked to each other.

00:46:58Guest:Who's this person?

00:46:59Guest:Prentice Penny.

00:47:00Guest:He is the EP of my show.

00:47:01Guest:He's the EP of Insecure.

00:47:02Guest:Oh, okay.

00:47:04Guest:And we vibed and we kept talking for like two weeks.

00:47:08Guest:And he was like, yeah, no, this is the person.

00:47:10Guest:And he went to HBO and was like, this is the person.

00:47:12Guest:And HBO was like, yo, we love Sam.

00:47:14Guest:Like, she's dope.

00:47:16Guest:Like, she's the shit.

00:47:17Guest:So this must be the person.

00:47:18Guest:And then at the same time, I got offered cast at SNL, like, wow, this is going on.

00:47:24Guest:Okay.

00:47:24Guest:So I'm like, shit, what the fuck?

00:47:27Guest:What am I going to do?

00:47:28Guest:Because SNL is my family.

00:47:30Guest:At the end of the day, we really built something and bonded on something.

00:47:33Guest:And I had a great deal of respect for everybody there.

00:47:36Guest:And I loved working with everybody.

00:47:38Guest:And it also felt like a safe place.

00:47:39Guest:They kind of built me up.

00:47:41Guest:I don't think the special would have been what it was without SNL and what I learned there.

00:47:44Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:47:45Guest:Of course, yeah.

00:47:45Guest:And so it felt like I was really torn and I was trying to find some way to like do both some kind of way.

00:47:51Guest:But it was just kind of like this is the thing I've always wanted to do is like have my own product and kind of like form something the way I want to form it.

00:47:58Guest:So I chose to do the show.

00:48:00Marc:Well, it's interesting because like it must have been one of those things where the unknown is.

00:48:04Marc:Yeah.

00:48:04Marc:Can I I'm going to have to do characters.

00:48:07Marc:I'm going to have to take a beating.

00:48:08Marc:Learning how to do that.

00:48:10Marc:As opposed to I can engage my brain and my sense of humor every time I step into this thing.

00:48:18Marc:But I can see I would be tough.

00:48:20Guest:Yeah, and I could make my own thing.

00:48:22Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:48:23Guest:And also, I just didn't want to disappoint Lauren.

00:48:25Guest:I know that that's his favorite thing.

00:48:27Guest:And when he offers it to you, it's a real gesture for him.

00:48:31Guest:And I just didn't want to disappoint him.

00:48:32Guest:Did you talk to him about it?

00:48:33Guest:I did.

00:48:35Guest:It was okay.

00:48:36Guest:It was okay.

00:48:36Marc:He understood?

00:48:37Guest:He understood.

00:48:38Guest:You know what I mean?

00:48:39Guest:And he told me, like, I always have a family there, you know, and I always have a place I could come home to.

00:48:43Marc:But he's producing Bus Down, right?

00:48:45Marc:Yeah.

00:48:45Marc:Okay.

00:48:45Marc:Yeah, and we're still- You're back, kind of.

00:48:47Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:48:47Guest:We still together, you know?

00:48:49Marc:So, but pause, like, to me was, it's, how often, so it was a weekly?

00:48:55Marc:Yes.

00:48:56Marc:And you only did like six?

00:48:57Marc:Six, and now I'm doing eight.

00:48:59Marc:Okay.

00:49:00Marc:Now, what's the production schedule on that thing?

00:49:02Marc:How long does it take to put that together?

00:49:04Marc:How do you decide?

00:49:05Marc:I mean, I know you have the kind of like, you know, drunky salon thing at your apartment.

00:49:09Marc:Is that really your apartment?

00:49:10Marc:No.

00:49:10Marc:Oh, okay.

00:49:11Guest:I would not let camera and crew in my apartment.

00:49:14Marc:But I like that.

00:49:16Marc:I mean, the way it feels, obviously, is unique.

00:49:21Marc:And then the kind of engaged people talking over each other, it's kind of fun.

00:49:27Marc:But obviously, you decide on topics, right?

00:49:30Guest:Yeah.

00:49:31Marc:So how do you produce that?

00:49:32Marc:What's the idea?

00:49:33Guest:I mean, we just get in the room and we just, I throw out things that I'm feeling.

00:49:37Guest:It's a very talky room.

00:49:38Guest:The room pretty much feels like the party.

00:49:40Marc:The writer's room.

00:49:41Guest:Yeah, the writer's room feels like the party.

00:49:43Marc:Who's in there?

00:49:43Marc:How many people?

00:49:44Guest:We got, I want to say we got eight this year.

00:49:48Marc:Mm-hmm.

00:49:49Guest:And we had... We only have 10 this year, and we had eight last season.

00:49:53Marc:Oh, wow.

00:49:53Marc:Yeah.

00:49:54Guest:Yeah.

00:49:54Marc:Mixed?

00:49:55Guest:Yep.

00:49:56Guest:It's a lot.

00:49:57Guest:It's more women this season than men this season.

00:49:59Guest:And last season, I feel like it was pretty balanced.

00:50:01Marc:Yeah?

00:50:02Guest:Yeah.

00:50:03Marc:But so when you're kicking around topics or whatever you're... Because it seemed like the... And then...

00:50:08Marc:In the writer's room, you hash it out, and then you decide, well, this is what we're going to talk about with the friends, and then you're like, so let's figure out what the out-of-studio segments are going to be in relation to that.

00:50:19Guest:Yeah, how do we make it active?

00:50:21Guest:That's what we're always saying in the room.

00:50:22Guest:All right, this is just ideas now.

00:50:23Marc:I thought it was provocative, again, as some middle-aged dude who's just trying to hold on to some relevance and not really knowing a lot.

00:50:32Marc:They're just shit I don't know.

00:50:34Marc:Like I've worked with for years.

00:50:37Marc:I mean, for a couple of years on radio, I had a, you know, a black guy who was my partner on the mics.

00:50:42Marc:But like the idea and obviously the idea of what is Kooning or what is, you know, I've heard that or Tomming or whatever.

00:50:49Marc:But the actual when you started talking about representing.

00:50:54Marc:And the challenge for you as a woman, as a gay person, and as a black person, I mean, that's a lot.

00:51:01Marc:In that conversation, I was like, well, I never thought about any of this shit.

00:51:04Marc:I'm learning things.

00:51:06Marc:That's cool.

00:51:06Marc:Well, how do you deal with that on a day-to-day basis?

00:51:08Marc:Or do you just surrender?

00:51:09Marc:Because at the end of the episode, you're like, I'm not that, and fuck it.

00:51:12Guest:Yeah, I think that's how I deal with it.

00:51:14Guest:It'll just be me at the end of the day.

00:51:16Guest:And it's like, I don't know, you got to take it and leave it type of deal.

00:51:20Guest:Because I...

00:51:20Marc:You don't feel like it's a responsibility.

00:51:22Guest:If I make it a responsibility, then I'm not being myself.

00:51:25Guest:You know what I'm saying?

00:51:27Guest:That's going to be your job.

00:51:28Guest:Yeah.

00:51:29Guest:Yeah.

00:51:29Guest:And I don't ever want, I don't want that.

00:51:31Guest:You know what I mean?

00:51:32Guest:I want the ability to like, like even with pause, we always talked about it.

00:51:35Guest:Like I want the ability to be wrong.

00:51:37Guest:I want the ability to grow.

00:51:38Guest:I don't.

00:51:39Guest:I don't want to be an authority that's why we do it the way we do it that's why I didn't want a desk it was like once you sit behind that desk you're an authority and now you have to know stuff and you have to be right and it's like that's just not actually my life experience and sometimes I'm more connected to my blackness than my gayness sometimes I'm more connected to my gayness than my blackness sometimes I'm more connected to my feminine side than my masculine side sometimes I'm more connected to my masculine like I'm just a multitude of things sometimes you just

00:52:02Guest:And sometimes I'm a comic first, and that's it.

00:52:05Guest:You know what I mean?

00:52:06Guest:And a lot of times, really, I feel like that's my ultimate identity.

00:52:10Guest:So it's just like, yeah, you can be a multitude of things, and sometimes those things are conflicting, and that's okay.

00:52:15Guest:I think we're so rigid these days, and it's like, that's not really how shit is.

00:52:19Marc:Well, it's overthinky sometimes, and it's also in reaction.

00:52:22Marc:We live in reaction to other people dumping shit into our laps, because you can't stop people from dumping shit into your lap anymore.

00:52:29Marc:Everybody can get to everybody.

00:52:31Marc:And it doesn't take much to make someone go like, fuck, am I that?

00:52:34Marc:What did I do?

00:52:36Marc:And it's like, they're nobodies.

00:52:38Marc:Yeah, you just gotta stop listening to people.

00:52:39Marc:Right, but it's hard, right?

00:52:41Marc:Yeah.

00:52:42Marc:Every day I think like I'm getting off the, I'm just gonna.

00:52:45Guest:And then you're back on the junk, huh?

00:52:47Guest:Yeah, of course.

00:52:48Guest:Yeah, bro.

00:52:49Marc:That dopamine rush.

00:52:50Guest:Yeah, I try not to be on it too, but it's like, it's a...

00:52:54Guest:You want to know because you also make shit for people.

00:52:57Guest:So you do want to know what the fuck they think.

00:53:00Marc:But then you realize a lot of people are just there to fuck things up.

00:53:03Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:53:03Guest:They're chaotic.

00:53:04Marc:It's their hobby.

00:53:04Marc:They're the joker.

00:53:05Guest:Yeah, they're the joker.

00:53:06Marc:They're just running around burning shit down.

00:53:08Marc:That's right.

00:53:09Marc:Thousands of them.

00:53:10Marc:But I thought the conversations were really good because it's not conversations I have or I'm privy to necessarily, but just also in terms of that whole representation thing leads into the next episode about how do you protect yourself in a world that you could be...

00:53:28Marc:Your job could be affected by somebody finding something that you said taken out of context or misunderstood.

00:53:36Marc:I guess it's cancel culture.

00:53:38Marc:But I thought that was interesting, too, because you're coming at that as somebody who wants a certain type of success.

00:53:44Marc:And you were able to separate the idea of black success versus regular success and what success is how it's dictated by white culture.

00:53:51Marc:Yeah.

00:53:52Marc:And that there's a certain a different type of pressure and there's a different type of bar to meet.

00:53:56Guest:Yeah, a different type of like bartering system, you know, like it's a whole different, you're playing a whole different game and you're trying to satisfy a lot of different things because you still feel you have some responsibility, of course, to the black community.

00:54:10Guest:It's the same thing of like you have some responsibility to the minority group you're a part of, but you also like are trying to achieve something and then also like you're just a fucking person.

00:54:18Guest:Right.

00:54:19Guest:I always just think it's weird that people don't realize we're just people with jobs.

00:54:25Guest:I know.

00:54:26Guest:We're just people doing stuff.

00:54:28Guest:Kind of hard jobs.

00:54:29Guest:Yeah, and we're just doing shit, and I get that there's an opportunity to make a lot of money doing it, but it's still just a thing I'm doing, and I'm not always going to be correct or think the way you need me to think, and that's why there's a lot of us, and you should tap into the thing that's servicing you at the time and the thing that isn't.

00:54:47Sure.

00:54:47Guest:Don't fuck with it.

00:54:48Marc:Right.

00:54:48Marc:And I think the challenge just becomes about like, you know, how do I stay authentic and then not chase this this the the expectation that because there's so like this whole.

00:55:00Marc:OK, when you look at Kevin Hart, you know, is there was there a day that Kevin and I know him and we've talked and I like him.

00:55:06Marc:But was there a day where he just sat down like I'm going to do everything?

00:55:09Marc:I'm going to own this thing.

00:55:11Marc:The Kevin Hart brand.

00:55:12Marc:We're going to have breakfast cereal.

00:55:14Marc:We're going to have a motivational speaker.

00:55:17Marc:I'm going to do movies.

00:55:18Marc:I'm going to do athletics.

00:55:19Marc:I'm going to do stadiums.

00:55:20Marc:I mean, that business model is a real thing.

00:55:24Marc:Yeah.

00:55:24Marc:And people aspire to it.

00:55:27Guest:Yeah, if that's what you want, you know what I mean?

00:55:30Marc:But I wouldn't know how to, it would be exhausting.

00:55:33Guest:Yeah, nah, I couldn't do it.

00:55:34Marc:I can't think in terms of relation to branding.

00:55:37Marc:That seems to be the whole thing and how you maintain any sort of sense of self or even authenticity when all your energy goes into branding.

00:55:46Marc:I don't know what that is.

00:55:47Guest:Yeah.

00:55:48Marc:I'm old though.

00:55:48Guest:I don't, I mean, I don't really know what it is either.

00:55:50Guest:I think it's just like different, like some people come in and that's, everybody wants something different out there shit.

00:55:55Guest:And I just always wanted to be able to just create authentically.

00:55:58Guest:Like those were the motherfuckers I admired and that's the shit I wanted to do.

00:56:01Guest:Like who?

00:56:02Guest:Like, man, like Chappelle.

00:56:04Guest:Right.

00:56:05Guest:Like Rock.

00:56:06Guest:Yeah.

00:56:07Guest:you know carlin like just i'm a i love fucking stand-ups yeah yeah you know through and through damon wayne's you know i just want to i just wanted to be able to be myself patrice i just wanted to be able to be like what i am right and then like do shit right because that's what we fought for we that's our choice it's like i don't want anybody i just want to find my space on that stage and own it yeah and then whatever from there as long as that's the core of it

00:56:33Guest:It's a little culty.

00:56:34Guest:Like, I always say, like, I'm just looking for my, like, tribe.

00:56:37Guest:Right, right.

00:56:38Guest:I'm just trying to talk.

00:56:39Guest:I'm talking into the ether, and if it connects with you, like, come over here, and we can chat.

00:56:44Marc:Have you found, like, I'm starting to, because my audience came to me much later, but it's very interesting once you have an audience to see what it's mostly made up of, and they sort of, like...

00:56:54Marc:Is that who I am inside?

00:56:56Marc:I guess so.

00:56:56Marc:My audience is wild.

00:56:58Marc:I guess I'm an angry middle-aged woman inside.

00:57:00Guest:I think inside I'm like a half-Republican white man.

00:57:06Guest:I get a lot of white dudes.

00:57:08Guest:Really?

00:57:09Guest:It's a weird mix with me.

00:57:10Guest:It's like a lot of white dudes and then like a lot of older black men, like middle-aged older black men.

00:57:17Guest:Few black women in there.

00:57:18Guest:And then like young people.

00:57:20Guest:It's such a wild like...

00:57:22Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:57:24Marc:But you find that the people that are getting you deep, like, you know, because it's interesting when you have older, grown-up people who come out, who seek you out, because that means they're speaking at least a mature language.

00:57:35Marc:Right, right.

00:57:35Marc:They dig it.

00:57:36Marc:But it's hard to understand exactly.

00:57:37Marc:Why do you say Republican?

00:57:39Right.

00:57:39Guest:Because I'm a bit rebellious, you know what I mean?

00:57:43Guest:And so I play a lot.

00:57:45Guest:My material is very much I push this way and I push that way.

00:57:48Guest:And I'm not always left-leaning or right-leaning, depending on the topic.

00:57:53Guest:You don't really know where you're going to catch my opinion.

00:57:56Guest:And I think for, like, white dudes, they expect a thing.

00:58:00Guest:They're like, I know what that's going to be.

00:58:01Guest:And then I start talking and they're like, oh, I didn't know that that's what this was going to be.

00:58:05Guest:Challenge them.

00:58:06Guest:Yeah.

00:58:07Guest:Yeah.

00:58:08Guest:Yeah.

00:58:08Guest:Right.

00:58:08Guest:So I think it's like a little bit like fun for them.

00:58:12Guest:They're like, oh, here's a here's a path I didn't think anyone was going to take type of thing.

00:58:16Marc:That's good.

00:58:17Marc:That's good.

00:58:17Marc:Well, I mean, I watched that one segment that you did on pause with the black Republicans, black conservatives.

00:58:23Marc:And that woman came out.

00:58:24Marc:Was that did you not know?

00:58:26Marc:Not at all.

00:58:27Guest:Did not know at all.

00:58:28Marc:How's she doing?

00:58:28Marc:All right.

00:58:29Marc:She's good.

00:58:29Guest:She's out here living.

00:58:30Guest:Oh, really?

00:58:31Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:58:32Guest:She's always, like, posting pictures, like, out.

00:58:34Guest:I'm like, okay, she's outside.

00:58:35Marc:That's cool.

00:58:36Marc:That was kind of... You could feel the weight of that moment.

00:58:39Marc:Because you didn't even take it in for, like, a second.

00:58:41Marc:Wait, what?

00:58:42Marc:This is happening?

00:58:43Guest:Because I was just like, holy, this is crazy.

00:58:45Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:58:46Marc:Well, I mean, the weird sort of line of self-actualization, it was interesting in that show that there is something about just black culture, and you just said about it earlier, about taking yourself up by your bootstraps and actualizing your life, and that that's a conservative idea.

00:59:06Marc:I don't think it's necessarily Republican.

00:59:08Right.

00:59:08Guest:Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

00:59:09Guest:It's, like, conservative.

00:59:10Guest:And I think that, like, white Republican dudes, they'll, like, hear some of that in me and be like, oh, I didn't know you could... They're like, oh, there's one that didn't need the welfare money.

00:59:21Guest:Yeah, and it's like, that's not true.

00:59:22Guest:And that's what's fun about those, like, setups is that I also get to correct them.

00:59:27Guest:Like, yeah, no, but no.

00:59:29Guest:There's still this and there's still that.

00:59:31Guest:There is, I think, some power to give to black people that, like...

00:59:37Guest:You have to a little bit see it that way to beat the game.

00:59:41Marc:Right.

00:59:42Guest:To beat the game, you got to kind of decide.

00:59:44Marc:Deprogram yourself from the welfare idea.

00:59:49Guest:Yes.

00:59:50Guest:Not the thing.

00:59:51Guest:Right.

00:59:52Guest:But the idea of the thing.

00:59:53Marc:That's what we are.

00:59:54Guest:Right.

00:59:55Guest:And that's the only way you can.

00:59:58Marc:You know what I mean?

00:59:58Guest:It's like, nah, bro.

01:00:00Guest:There's...

01:00:01Guest:You're really in control.

01:00:03Guest:It is really some like I always I'm fucking a nerd, but I always say it's like some Matrix shit.

01:00:07Guest:It's just like once you unplug and you're like, no, I'm actually fully in control of this thing.

01:00:12Marc:Right.

01:00:13Marc:Well, I think the real question with that kind of stuff politically is the idea of is it a level playing field?

01:00:20Guest:Not at all.

01:00:21Marc:Right.

01:00:21Marc:So that that is the argument against.

01:00:23Marc:But it never will be.

01:00:25Marc:Of course.

01:00:25Marc:Right.

01:00:25Marc:So you just gotta figure out how you level it.

01:00:29Marc:So do you accept that and play the victim or do you try to rise above it?

01:00:32Guest:Yeah, and figure out how to level it.

01:00:34Guest:And then when you do rise above it, how do you change it for the motherfuckers behind you so that they don't have to go through as much, you know?

01:00:43Marc:Do you think that that is happening?

01:00:45Guest:Yeah, I think especially with, like, art.

01:00:48Marc:Yeah, exactly.

01:00:49Marc:Especially with art.

01:00:50Marc:Yeah, there's a lot of equality in fiction right now.

01:00:53Marc:Yeah, yeah.

01:00:54Guest:But I think it's such a standard and a thing.

01:00:56Guest:Like, I look at Paws and people will be like, some people will be like, yo, why do you say niggas so much?

01:01:00Guest:Why do you talk like that?

01:01:01Guest:And I'm like, yo, because that's how people where I'm from fucking talk.

01:01:04Guest:If I was sitting around talking to my friends, that's how we would speak.

01:01:07Guest:And if I change how I'm speaking, because now I'm in this white space necessarily, then I'm making it harder for the niggas from where I'm from to come in and be who they are.

01:01:16Guest:Right.

01:01:16Guest:Now they have to pose a posture.

01:01:18Guest:And some of these motherfuckers can't.

01:01:19Guest:Right.

01:01:19Guest:Like truly and honestly, they can't.

01:01:21Marc:Yeah.

01:01:22Guest:So it's like if I put on airs for you motherfuckers, I'm not helping them.

01:01:25Marc:Right.

01:01:26Marc:Right.

01:01:27Guest:I'm just keeping the status quo.

01:01:28Marc:That's right.

01:01:29Marc:You're saying like, look, I managed to fit into this space.

01:01:31Marc:Yeah.

01:01:32Guest:It's like, nah, fuck that.

01:01:33Guest:Break the space.

01:01:33Guest:Once you get in it, break the space.

01:01:35Marc:Right.

01:01:36Marc:Right.

01:01:36Marc:And that's it.

01:01:37Marc:You can definitely feel that.

01:01:39Guest:I'm trying, bro.

01:01:39Guest:I don't know.

01:01:40Guest:I don't know how well it's done.

01:01:41Marc:What do you mean?

01:01:42Marc:I mean, what's the feedback?

01:01:43Marc:I mean, I mean, who's who's saying you use the N word too much?

01:01:45Guest:Black people and white people.

01:01:46Guest:I think anytime you're doing something that's, you know, what it is, it's gonna... It's just like, but like, I don't know why I don't process it that way.

01:01:55Marc:You know, I don't know.

01:01:56Marc:You know, I completely felt right away.

01:01:59Marc:I'm like, all right, this is, you know, this is the way...

01:02:03Marc:that this community is talking.

01:02:04Marc:So get on board.

01:02:06Marc:That's it.

01:02:08Marc:And slow it down if you need to and figure out what's happening.

01:02:12Marc:How are they engaging?

01:02:13Marc:And again, I'm not saying they as black people, but this community, this is the language, so figure it out.

01:02:19Marc:And it's provocative.

01:02:20Guest:And they as black people, they as young people.

01:02:23Guest:Right, exactly.

01:02:24Guest:Yeah, they as gay people.

01:02:25Guest:Gay people, exactly.

01:02:27Guest:You know, exactly.

01:02:28Guest:And I'm just a firm believer in that there's not a... I don't want to play those games anymore.

01:02:34Guest:I feel like the black people before us, they did all that dancing for y'all niggas.

01:02:38Guest:They did all the dancing they could do, bro, and they still didn't do shit.

01:02:42Marc:Right.

01:02:42Guest:So I'm not...

01:02:43Marc:Oh, that's interesting.

01:02:44Marc:We're not doing that.

01:02:45Marc:They worked the white space and we're still stuck.

01:02:48Marc:Right.

01:02:48Marc:So, like, no.

01:02:50Marc:Right.

01:02:51Marc:Exactly.

01:02:51Marc:But it's just very exciting in a way because I like how there's, in conversation, the volume level and the level of interruption and engagement is also, it's exciting.

01:03:03Marc:Like, if you get through...

01:03:05Marc:the way, because it's obviously structured the show, right?

01:03:08Marc:You know, you guys are riffing, but you know, once you learn the language of the show, it's like, it is a completely new approach to that late night idea.

01:03:15Marc:This is the monologue.

01:03:16Marc:There's 20 of us.

01:03:18Guest:Yeah.

01:03:18Marc:And we're talking.

01:03:19Guest:Well, I just tried to like, for me, it's like, it got to feel like how I'm a fucking stand up, bro.

01:03:24Guest:I'm used to yelling at people over people at the cellar.

01:03:27Guest:I'm used to screaming at Keith to make my point.

01:03:30Guest:And it was like, bro, if you take away all that energy, then I'm not even being my authentic self.

01:03:35Marc:Yeah, because you're self-checking.

01:03:36Guest:Yeah.

01:03:37Guest:Yeah, and then it's not real.

01:03:39Guest:It's like, bro, I was very clear, like, I want to fight for it.

01:03:42Marc:Yeah, yeah.

01:03:43Guest:Because that's how I usually have to make a point.

01:03:45Guest:I got to fight for it.

01:03:46Guest:Right.

01:03:46Guest:And I want people to scream over me.

01:03:47Guest:I want someone to be more right than me sometimes.

01:03:50Guest:And I'm like, all right, you more correct.

01:03:51Guest:Like, when Ricky has that moment, it's like, I hope we get more of those this season.

01:03:54Guest:Like, okay, bro.

01:03:55Marc:Well, that was funny about you and Ricky.

01:03:57Marc:It's like, he was like the only guy you listened to.

01:03:59Yeah.

01:03:59Guest:But he's a guy I'm always yelling at.

01:04:01Marc:I know, I know.

01:04:02Marc:But it was something because there was one moment where you're just like, he's talking and you're not saying nothing.

01:04:06Guest:I'm like, wow, they're friends.

01:04:08Guest:Yeah, we're actually friends.

01:04:11Marc:But what's okay, so we can talk about Bustdown a little bit.

01:04:14Marc:But before we do that, what are some of the topics you're thinking about, kicking around for the pause?

01:04:19Marc:Pause season.

01:04:19Marc:Did you produce that out of New York?

01:04:21Guest:Yes.

01:04:21Guest:Yes, yes, yes.

01:04:22Guest:Pause season two.

01:04:23Guest:I mean, we're just getting more personal.

01:04:25Guest:You know, we felt like that titties out episode was like our like, this is the goal.

01:04:31Guest:Right.

01:04:31Guest:This is when the show feels absolutely correct.

01:04:33Marc:When you're not trying to take on, you know, the, you know, the black responsibility angle.

01:04:39Marc:Yeah.

01:04:40Guest:And I'm just like existing in the existence, if you will.

01:04:43Guest:Right.

01:04:44Guest:And so this season, it's like a lot of personal stuff.

01:04:47Guest:I'm doing an episode about jail.

01:04:49Guest:That's kind of surrounding.

01:04:50Guest:My brother went to jail when I was very young, and he was young.

01:04:53Guest:I'm doing this episode.

01:04:54Guest:Is he out?

01:04:54Guest:Yeah.

01:04:55Guest:I'm doing this episode around death and how my mother's death so young, like my fear of death and how I haven't really overcome it.

01:05:01Marc:So you're doing that same give or take crew?

01:05:04Guest:Yep.

01:05:05Marc:Talking about personal stuff.

01:05:06Guest:Different comics this season.

01:05:07Guest:So a bunch of different people outside of Jack and Zach who are like my core boys.

01:05:11Marc:Yeah.

01:05:12Guest:We're going to bring in a bunch of different comics, and we're going to break it a little bit again.

01:05:16Guest:We're going to have some fun and restructure some things.

01:05:19Guest:Sometimes it won't start at the party.

01:05:20Guest:We're going to do some cool stuff.

01:05:21Marc:Okay.

01:05:22Marc:And with Bust Down, how did that come together?

01:05:26Guest:Chris read...

01:05:28Guest:Brought us a project.

01:05:29Guest:He was the only one out of all four of us that was actually making money at the time and had any type of traction out in the industry.

01:05:36Guest:And he had this opportunity to redevelop something that was a show out in, I want to say Canada.

01:05:43Guest:It was like about four friends who made a pact to not have sex.

01:05:47Guest:And then how they get through life, holding each other accountable to this.

01:05:50Guest:And he was like, yo, do y'all think we could mess with this and kind of like make it us?

01:05:55Guest:And we were like, and he was like, you can get some money.

01:05:57Guest:And we was like, cool, we don't got nothing to do.

01:06:00Guest:So we started with that.

01:06:01Guest:And of course, it grew completely away from that to what it became.

01:06:05Guest:And we just kept jamming on it.

01:06:07Guest:It's been five years in the making.

01:06:09Marc:Really?

01:06:10Guest:Five and a half.

01:06:11Marc:It's an odd space that that show happens in, right?

01:06:16Yeah.

01:06:16Marc:Because there's part of me, and again, I've only watched the pilot, and I'm sure it gets different.

01:06:20Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:06:21Marc:But there is that sense of like, are we supposed to take this real, or is this just a comedy space?

01:06:26Marc:How do you look at it?

01:06:27Guest:It's totally just for yucks.

01:06:29Marc:You know what I mean?

01:06:29Guest:And I think at first, when people watch the pilot, because it's such a heavy topic, but we thought it was a cool way to introduce who we all are going to be.

01:06:38Marc:That was a heavy topic.

01:06:39Marc:Male molestation is...

01:06:41Marc:It's like if you're going to do like, the pilot's got to be about being molested when you're a dude and how you handle that.

01:06:48Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:06:49Guest:And how people react to that.

01:06:50Guest:But we thought it was a good way to tell who each character was going to be throughout this series.

01:06:54Guest:And also a good way to let people know, yo, these are the type of swings we're going to be taking.

01:06:59Guest:So if you're in for this, you're in for the ride.

01:07:01Guest:If you're not in for this, then get out now.

01:07:04Guest:If you're not going to laugh at young Chris getting his dick sucked, then this probably isn't the show for you.

01:07:10Marc:Who's not going to laugh at young Chris getting his dick sucked?

01:07:14Marc:The character he plays is very odd.

01:07:17Marc:He really commits to it.

01:07:19Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:07:20Guest:I think Chris is such a great silly Billy.

01:07:24Guest:You can really throw him in anything and he's going to silly it up.

01:07:27Marc:And you guys are all writing it, you and Jack and Chris.

01:07:30Guest:And Langston, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:07:31Guest:And we have a writer's room, Emmy Blotnick, Gary Richardson's in that thing.

01:07:35Marc:From SNL?

01:07:36Marc:Zach Fox.

01:07:37Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:07:39Marc:And so now that you're doing the premiere and then you go back and get to work on pause.

01:07:44Marc:Yep.

01:07:45Marc:And that's it.

01:07:45Marc:Stand up, doing it?

01:07:46Guest:Yes.

01:07:47Guest:Oh man, I want to do another special next year.

01:07:51Marc:I've been hammering this shit out for like six months, the new stuff, putting the new hour together.

01:07:55Marc:You?

01:07:55Guest:I've been working the cellar and just getting like these chunks I like and going like, I like this, you know, I think this could be something like I like this and I think this could be something.

01:08:06Guest:I want to do some more theater stuff.

01:08:08Guest:I might do a run.

01:08:09Guest:I am going to do a run at the Cherry Lane.

01:08:11Guest:where I can really, like, sit in some stuff.

01:08:13Marc:Well, that's what I do.

01:08:14Marc:Yeah, I just, like, I'll get, like, a residency at Dynasty, Dynasty typewriter, and just do, like, four Tuesdays.

01:08:20Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:08:20Marc:And, you know, and just riff it out.

01:08:23Guest:Yeah.

01:08:23Marc:See what sticks.

01:08:24Guest:That's what I'm trying to do.

01:08:25Guest:And just, like, really sit in some stuff and really start to...

01:08:27Marc:Well, what's going on with the Cherry Lane?

01:08:30Marc:I mean, it seems like I remember when I used to do one man shows that most of the road guys, most of the comics were like, oh yeah, you're giving up, huh?

01:08:38Marc:But now it seems to be a thing.

01:08:39Marc:So are they offering the space to workshop as well?

01:08:43Marc:Or are you planning on doing a more structured thing?

01:08:46Guest:I'm lucky enough to have an agent that really has a good relationship with them.

01:08:51Guest:So I'm going to do some workshopping.

01:08:52Marc:That's the way to go, man.

01:08:53Guest:It's going to have its legs a little bit, but it's going to be more of a workshop.

01:08:57Marc:But like, so you're going to like, instead of like, you're running it as like a theatrical run, fully produced, you're going to like do some nights where you're just kind of trying to put shit together.

01:09:06Guest:Yeah.

01:09:07Marc:Yeah.

01:09:07Marc:Reasonably priced ticket.

01:09:08Guest:Yeah.

01:09:09Guest:Not crazy.

01:09:10Guest:Cause I'm, I'm just putting stuff together.

01:09:11Guest:But I just want that, uh, I want that theater audience cause I, there's some complicated ideas and I need some space to really like, yeah.

01:09:21Guest:Have the support.

01:09:23Marc:And theater audience is like, hmm.

01:09:25Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:09:26Guest:And we at the cellar, it's like, you better blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:09:29Marc:No, the cellar, it's like, people don't realize, as much as we all talk about it, that is not a fucking easy room.

01:09:34Marc:Nah.

01:09:34Marc:There's nothing easy about it.

01:09:36Marc:You can't get away with anything there.

01:09:37Marc:And if you're too sensitive, like if you're trying to show that part of yourself,

01:09:42Marc:Uh-uh.

01:09:43Marc:Wrong place.

01:09:44Guest:Yeah, you got to balance it right.

01:09:47Guest:It's a dance there.

01:09:48Marc:How is it over there?

01:09:49Marc:I love it.

01:09:49Marc:I've been avoiding it.

01:09:51Marc:No, I love it.

01:09:51Marc:I mean, I came up in there.

01:09:52Marc:I know all those guys, but like I just, it's weird.

01:09:55Marc:I went in there and no one was there and I didn't go on.

01:09:58Marc:I should just go back.

01:09:59Marc:I always have this.

01:10:00Guest:Did you, have you done the VU?

01:10:02Guest:I like that room the best.

01:10:04Guest:That's my favorite room.

01:10:05Marc:It's just when I go to New York, I'm usually doing something else, and I don't feel the love as much as I used to, but I might just be making that up.

01:10:13Guest:I think you might be making that up, bro.

01:10:15Marc:I'm sure, man.

01:10:16Marc:I'm just another paranoid comic.

01:10:17Marc:I think if you showed up- It's like with you backstage.

01:10:20Marc:It's sort of like, what the fuck is her problem with it?

01:10:23Marc:So what are these difficult things that you're going to be exploring?

01:10:26Guest:I mean, I want to do this shit about like, it's weirdly right now I'm calling it like a love letter to America from a person that shouldn't love America.

01:10:34Guest:You know what I mean?

01:10:35Guest:That's all I have right now.

01:10:37Guest:And it has some of that manifest destiny stuff in it.

01:10:40Guest:And it has some of this like relationship that the core relationship that I think of this country, which is black and white people.

01:10:45Guest:And then how that like reflects outward to the rest of like the world.

01:10:49Guest:And then like how that kind of,

01:10:51Guest:how this country like operates in a way that we don't want to acknowledge and that at the end of the day it is just a relationship yeah it's just a relationship between us a pretty a pretty toxic one right but just a relationship at the end of the day that we haven't quite figured out how to navigate yeah both of us have some some stake in that right yeah you know what i mean i've been relating it to an abusive relationship and i'm like what's

01:11:15Marc:Clearly that.

01:11:15Guest:Yeah.

01:11:16Guest:And I'm like, you know, like black people, we have to accept that where the bitch getting beat.

01:11:20Guest:So we have some of those tendencies of wanting to be liked and wanting the approval.

01:11:24Guest:And we hope white people will come home one day and say, I'm sorry, honey.

01:11:28Guest:You know, you're perfect.

01:11:29Guest:And I should have never hit you.

01:11:30Guest:And the only reason I do is because I'm broken.

01:11:33Guest:Let's go fix it.

01:11:34Guest:Yeah.

01:11:34Guest:A part of us is we may we may need to accept that they never are going to do that.

01:11:38Guest:But we also have to accept that we actually want that.

01:11:40Guest:And we have to be honest about the fact that we fucking want that.

01:11:43Guest:And white people got to be honest with the fact that they are fucking abusers and that this has been a bad ride for niggas.

01:11:50Guest:I mean, like, yeah, period.

01:11:52Guest:And like.

01:11:53Guest:Just really exploring this kind of heavier stuff and then kind of how that connects to like people, foreign people who come here from other countries and their views and perceptions of this and how America is kind of a gambler's island.

01:12:05Guest:But in that there's some beauty in it because it does give space kind of for everybody in this weird way.

01:12:12Sure.

01:12:13Marc:Yeah.

01:12:13Marc:Well, I think you like in pause, you kind of I thought pretty well comedically addressed this idea of, you know, it's a known idea if you're progressive or you're you're educated that the Constitution was not for black people.

01:12:30Marc:Yeah.

01:12:30Marc:So but the idea of making a black Constitution was very funny.

01:12:33Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:12:34Guest:But it's like even in that, I think about the Constitution and I'm like, but what makes it so beautiful is because it is a document that was made by persecuted people.

01:12:44Guest:And so in its language, it includes all people, but only a persecuted person would even think to create that language.

01:12:51Guest:That's right.

01:12:51Guest:To say all people is because they've been ostracized at some point.

01:12:55Guest:So it's like this happy little mistake.

01:12:58Guest:Yeah.

01:12:58Guest:And because this is like the core of this is persecuted people trying to find their freedom.

01:13:02Guest:Right.

01:13:02Guest:When someone pushes back hard enough and long enough, eventually it folds because it's like- We got to add some shit.

01:13:09Guest:We got to add some shit.

01:13:12Guest:Yeah.

01:13:13Guest:Yeah, exactly.

01:13:14Marc:Yeah.

01:13:15Marc:It's well intended, but it's not covering everything.

01:13:18Marc:Right.

01:13:19Marc:Things are changing.

01:13:20Marc:Right.

01:13:20Marc:Well, that sounds great.

01:13:21Marc:And good luck with it.

01:13:23Marc:And I will see you in New York.

01:13:25Marc:Yeah, man.

01:13:26Marc:Good talking to you.

01:13:26Marc:This was good.

01:13:27Marc:Thank you so much.

01:13:27Marc:Yeah, it was great.

01:13:33Marc:There you go.

01:13:34Marc:We learned.

01:13:35Marc:I did.

01:13:36Marc:I did.

01:13:37Marc:I learned.

01:13:38Marc:Sorry if I was nervous.

01:13:39Marc:Or whatever I was.

01:13:41Marc:It worked out.

01:13:41Marc:Comic to comic.

01:13:43Marc:Me and Sam Jay.

01:13:44Marc:Season 2 of Paws with Sam Jay is coming to HBO in May.

01:13:48Marc:You can stream all of Season 1 on HBO Max.

01:13:50Marc:I recommend it.

01:13:52Marc:And now I'm going to play some guitar.

01:14:01Music

01:14:19Thank you.

01:14:54Thank you.

01:15:13Yeah.

01:15:38Marc:Boomer lives.

01:15:40Marc:Monkey and LaFonda.

01:15:41Marc:Cat angels everywhere.