Episode 1314 - Ariana DeBose
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome welcome to it welcome one and all welcome to all you new people have a seat hang out listen all right listen to it
Marc:Don't talk.
Marc:Well, you can talk.
Marc:You know what?
Marc:It's fine.
Marc:Talk to me all you want.
Marc:Yell at me.
Marc:It doesn't matter.
Marc:Because I can't hear you.
Marc:How's it going?
Marc:You okay?
Marc:Everybody good?
Marc:How's that thing?
Marc:Did you get that thing taken care of?
Marc:How's being back at work?
Marc:Is that all right?
Marc:Is it weird?
Marc:Is everybody back or are you the only one there?
Marc:Is there a couple people?
Marc:What are you guys doing with the mask situation?
Marc:Does anyone care anymore?
Marc:Are people over it where you are?
Marc:Did everyone just decide it's done?
Marc:What's going on with testing?
Marc:What is happening?
Marc:Oh, you're going to work at home for the rest of your life?
Marc:Is that good, though?
Marc:Shouldn't you get out?
Marc:All right.
Marc:Can we talk later?
Marc:Everyone good?
Marc:Great.
Marc:Listen.
Marc:Listen to me.
Marc:Listen to me.
Marc:Ariana DeBose is on the show today.
Marc:She started out as a dancer and she was in Broadway shows like Hamilton.
Marc:But now she's Oscar nominated for Best Supporting Actress for playing Anita in West Side Story.
Marc:I imagine that she's kind of surprised about it.
Marc:Maybe not.
Marc:I will talk to her about that.
Marc:I enjoyed the movie immensely.
Marc:I watched both West Side Stories back to back, enjoyed both of them.
Marc:She's amazing as the sister, the Rita Moreno part.
Marc:And I don't watch...
Marc:Well, who does in the sense that how many are there really?
Marc:But I was watching these two musicals and I've seen some stage musicals.
Marc:I enjoy them.
Marc:I don't seek them out.
Marc:But when I go, I'm happy about it.
Marc:I don't know why I think it's some big secret or some shameful thing to like a musical.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:I don't know when I decided that or why.
Marc:Where do you think that comes from?
Marc:Can we break it down?
Marc:Where does that come from?
Marc:My shame of enjoying musicals.
Marc:But as many of you know, anytime I watch them, I get choked up just watching people sing, especially in the live ones in the theater.
Marc:But this was great.
Marc:They were both great.
Marc:It was very interesting to see them next to each other.
Marc:I talked to Tony Kushner about it.
Marc:And now I can talk to Ariana about it.
Marc:It was nice to have a shiny, young, talented performer sitting here.
Marc:I was having a rough week and she kind of lit me up just with the energy.
Marc:Nothing dubious, nothing weird.
Marc:Just like, oh, look at all the youth and excitement.
Marc:Everything's ahead of her and she's on top of the fucking world and she's talented and deserves it.
Marc:How does that not make you feel good?
Marc:I think if it's not the right day, that could make you feel resentful and jealous and old.
Marc:But that would never be me.
Marc:Never.
Marc:It was a rough week when I talked to her.
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:I was just hard on myself all week.
Marc:I guess I should say that I'm very proud of myself.
Marc:in the sense that there's something going on on stage right now.
Marc:Whether anyone gives a shit or not, I do.
Marc:And I know what it is.
Marc:Like I'm doing these shows solo.
Marc:So I'm doing an hour and a half and it feels like a goddamn play.
Marc:It feels like there's an arc to them.
Marc:There's an emotional movement that we're going through a lot of different levels of emotion and engagement.
Marc:All of them pretty funny, but different types of funny.
Marc:And I can feel it.
Marc:I can feel the investment.
Marc:I can feel the years of work.
Marc:And there's just something about...
Marc:laying in a bed in a Best Western Plus in Laconia, New Hampshire, after performing for an hour and a half plus, putting it out there, putting on a great show, having driven there from Troy, New York,
Marc:And I'm just there laying in the bed.
Marc:And now at another time, that could seem sort of sad.
Marc:You know, when you think about a performer on the road, especially driving a rental car in the middle of winter to do gigs and sleeping at a mediocre hotel.
Marc:It could be sad.
Marc:Or maybe I'm projecting.
Marc:Maybe you just, I have been in those situations in my life where I'm like, well, this is sad.
Marc:This is where I ended up.
Marc:But for some reason, I had this wrestling match with myself where it's like, you didn't end up here.
Marc:This is what you wanted to do.
Marc:How would it be different?
Marc:There's no nicer hotel here.
Marc:That gig was a good gig.
Marc:There were plenty of people there, 500 plus in the middle of nowhere.
Marc:This is what you wanted to do.
Marc:This isn't sad.
Marc:You alone in a hotel room worrying about whether or not you're going to beat the storm tomorrow on the way to Burlington after performing for five or six hundred people doing an hour and 40 minutes, 45 minutes, whatever it was.
Marc:You chose this life and you're doing exactly what you want to do just because you're alone in a hotel room.
Marc:in laconia new hampshire in a best western plus does not mean it's sad it's you know i mean could it be nicer i don't know it doesn't matter it's not the that's not the point i'm not judging it against anything else but this is the life i've chosen and this is this is doing great laying in a bed
Marc:in a best western plus in laconia new hampshire kind of just eating chocolate and wondering should i masturbate should i not what are we going to do with this life you've chosen laying in a bed in a best western plus in laconia new hampshire are you going to do it are you just going to eat the chocolate and have an orange that you bought for the car you can eat the oranges that you bought for the car and have some nuts
Marc:Or you can do everything.
Marc:You can eat the nuts, eat an orange or two, have a couple pieces of chocolate, and masturbate.
Marc:What are you going to do with this life you've chosen, in this amazing life you've chosen, alone in your hotel room in Laconia, New Hampshire, after doing an hour and 45 minutes for 500-plus people?
Marc:How do we celebrate?
Marc:How do we say, I'm free?
Marc:I'm free.
Marc:This is the life I've chosen.
Marc:We do all of them.
Marc:Now you just got to decide on the order.
Marc:Okay, Ariana DeBose on the show today.
Marc:Amazing, shiny, talented.
Marc:Sings, acts, can dance, all of it.
Marc:Great, great movie, that West Side Story.
Marc:Let me tell you a story.
Marc:Let me tell you a story, all right?
Marc:Okay, here's the deal.
Marc:I don't know how many of you listened to my podcast with BJ Novak, okay?
Marc:It would seem that there was a weirdness between us.
Marc:And I will cop to it.
Marc:And I did cop to it in front of him, that there was a slight kind of like jealousy, like how this guy can... It was sort of like Harvard guy.
Marc:All the opportunities just came to him.
Marc:Seemingly can do everything with a certain amount of focus.
Marc:You know, as a children's book writer, a director, an actor, comedian, kind of, not quite a comedian.
Marc:He did it for a while, but I wouldn't say, I wouldn't call him a comedian.
Marc:But writer, you know, all of it, all of it.
Marc:He does it all, does it well, made a lot of money, successful guy.
Marc:And it turns out after listening to the podcast, if you listen to us talk, nice guy.
Marc:And we kind of hammered it out.
Marc:You know, I copped to being older and slightly bitter and judgmental.
Marc:And he copped to me copping to that.
Marc:He copped to that being a reality.
Marc:But ultimately, it was okay.
Marc:Not a bad guy.
Marc:That being said, for months, it seemed like months.
Marc:There was some AirPod Pros in my... I found them on the floor, these AirPod Pros.
Marc:And I couldn't identify when.
Marc:Sometimes things get... I don't know.
Marc:I just found some of my AirPod Pros.
Marc:I didn't know whose they were.
Marc:And I don't have AirPods.
Marc:I use a Bluetooth headset with wires and whatever.
Marc:Had these AirPods in here for months, didn't know whose they were.
Marc:Finally, I'm like, how do these even work?
Marc:It's like finding an alien.
Marc:You flip open the thing, a light comes on.
Marc:I had no idea about AirPods.
Marc:So I opened the AirPods to look at them because maybe I should get some.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:And they came up on my phone as Benjamin's AirPods.
Marc:And I'm like, who the fuck is Benjamin?
Marc:And I asked Brendan, my producer, I'm like, I just, these AirPods that I've had sitting here for what seems like months belong to someone named Benjamin.
Marc:And he's like, could that be BJ Novak?
Marc:And I'm like, oh shit, it must be BJ Novak.
Marc:So now I've got BJ Novak's AirPods and I kind of want to try him out, but I'm trying to do the right thing.
Marc:You know, it doesn't matter if I try him out or not.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But so I text BJ.
Marc:I could tell you exactly what I texted because I thought it was I thought it was because I figured.
Marc:Listen to me.
Marc:He's rich.
Marc:He's successful.
Marc:You know, he probably bought another pair.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You would think he would bought another pair.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I texted him.
Marc:See, I kind of I kind of, you know, I was trying to get him to give him to me.
Marc:And he just said, oh, that adds up.
Marc:I'm in Boston for a few days.
Marc:I'll check in when I'm back and maybe I can swing by and grab them.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:No prob, I said disappointed because I thought he had to have gotten some other ones.
Marc:Why not gift them?
Marc:Why not gift Mark Maron?
Marc:You're used AirPod Pros.
Marc:And then a few days ago when I was on the road, he said, possible for you to leave the AirPods outside your door tomorrow discreetly for me or an assistant to pick up?
Marc:And I said, I'm gone until Sunday.
Marc:Sorry, have to be after that.
Marc:He said, no problem.
Marc:What I didn't say is, oh, you still want those?
Marc:Because I'm kind of using them.
Marc:I'm trying them out.
Marc:I'm trying them out.
Marc:So on Monday, I texted him back.
Marc:I said, I'm back.
Marc:Let me know when someone will come by.
Marc:I'll stash them somewhere outside if I'm not home.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:And he said, I hope the road was good.
Marc:I said, yeah.
Marc:And I put him outside.
Marc:I gave him the address, put him in a mug.
Marc:His assistant came and picked him up.
Marc:Now.
Marc:I don't know what exactly I'm copping to, but I kind of would like to be around when he syncs up his AirPod Pros to his phone and they come up as Mark's AirPod Pros.
Marc:It's the little things, folks.
Marc:It's the little things.
Marc:Will he know?
Marc:I mean, I did just try them.
Marc:I cleaned them with alcohol and everything.
Marc:But now I'm telling you about it.
Marc:But I didn't tell him on the text.
Marc:I didn't say, look, man, I used them, but I cleaned them.
Marc:But none of that matters.
Marc:I could have told him that.
Marc:But then, like, the fun of whatever happened... And I'm assuming something did.
Marc:Like, it's so stupid.
Marc:Like, he's going to feel what?
Marc:Like, I can't use these anymore?
Marc:Like, you know, these are no longer mine?
Marc:I thought they were my friends, but now they're Mark's friends?
Marc:It's just a piece of technology.
Marc:But still...
Marc:Still, I would have liked to have seen any sort of change in expression when he synced them up and they said, Mark's AirPod Pros.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay, so that said, all of that, I went out and bought some and they're kind of good.
Marc:They're kind of amazing, I think.
Marc:So far, so good.
Marc:Exciting.
Marc:Everything's got its own little brain.
Marc:Everything has its own little brain now.
Marc:West Side Story is now streaming on Disney Plus and HBO Max.
Marc:It's also available on digital and Blu-ray.
Marc:And I was excited to talk to Ariana DeBose.
Marc:And I think we did all right.
Marc:I think we did all right.
Marc:Here we are.
Marc:What'd you get all dressed up for?
Marc:Me?
Guest:You.
Guest:Of course you.
Guest:I costume changed for you.
Guest:I was in a pink suit earlier today.
Marc:What have you been doing?
Guest:I was at the Academy Award nominees luncheon.
Marc:Oh, they have a luncheon for the nominees?
Marc:Congratulations.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Who was at your table?
Guest:the president of the academy oh wow David Rubin yeah Andrew Garfield Andrew Garfield was right there he was he was at the table Kenneth Branagh was at the table I talked to that guy that guy's I mean I like him he's chatty he's British he's very British and he has a lot to say he's also very curious and I enjoy that like a curious artist charismatic guy he is and he gets right in your face he'll go he'll go right it's right here I know
Marc:You know, it's like you feel like you're watching a Shakespearean one man show.
Marc:Oh, totally.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:It all tracks his body of work.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:The amount of Shakespeare.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Reimagination.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Interpretations he's done.
Guest:It tracks.
Marc:When we were talking about like his family and stuff, I literally felt like I was watching a one person show.
Marc:This is the most intimate theater experience I've ever heard.
Marc:I've ever had.
Marc:I love it.
Marc:And so what happens at the luncheon?
Marc:Is it like they're like, we did it.
Marc:You guys are the ones.
Guest:Well, they do, you know, it was kind of nice because they 100% acknowledged what was going on in the world, you know, which is nice.
Marc:Yeah, the world is ending, but we're going to have a party.
Guest:The world is burning, but welcome to our luncheon.
Guest:Here's your vegan luncheon.
Guest:You do a vegan?
Guest:I'm not vegan, but they were conscious of people's dietary needs.
Marc:They made everyone eat vegan?
Marc:No.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:I mean, we all ate chickpea, something, something.
Marc:You did?
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It wasn't too bad.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:But it was actually really lovely because it took into account all of the things.
Guest:There are many, many problems in the world.
Guest:Right.
Guest:you know, they emphasize the need for art and good art that changes hearts and minds.
Guest:And I appreciated that.
Guest:And also, I don't know, I think of, I think about legacy a lot.
Guest:And, you know, there is a legacy with the Academy and the legacy is changing and shifting and growing.
Guest:And it was sort of nice to see that talked about and to be included in it.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:You know, it's like, well, it wasn't that long.
Marc:Look, all different kinds of people are here now.
Guest:Well, all different types of artists.
Guest:It's like, when's the last time you had, you know, a film like CODA being shown love like this?
Guest:This is a film full of deaf actors.
Guest:There's the hearing community and the non-hearing community.
Guest:And it's very rare that we explore that community or that type of work.
Guest:The Sound of Metal, I believe, was the last time.
Marc:That was last year.
Guest:Last year, Riz Ahmed was incredible.
Guest:But it's like the it's it feels like it's becoming more inclusive.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And only if we could just make the rest of the country go that direction.
Marc:Well, we're trying to lead by example.
Marc:It's like attempting, you know, how he was doing a great job at integrating everybody into fiction.
Marc:Now, we just got to do it in real life.
Guest:How about that?
Marc:That'd be awesome, guys.
Marc:Maybe maybe it'll bleed over.
Marc:Bless.
Marc:So legacy, though.
Marc:You think about legacy?
Guest:I do a little bit.
Guest:Like, what do you want to leave behind?
Guest:What do you hope people remember you for?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, there's two schools of thought there.
Guest:There's like what I think I'm doing and like what I think I'm putting out in the world and then what's actually happening.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How are you handling all this?
Marc:This is like sort of one of these things where, you know, do you feel ready for what's happening?
Marc:Absolutely not.
Guest:Are you kidding me?
Guest:There's no version of the world where you're actually ready for this.
Marc:I mean, you're like a Broadway musical person.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And now you're like Oscar nominated actress.
Guest:That's stressful, man.
Guest:Like, it's cool.
Guest:Do not get me wrong.
Guest:Like, this is an embarrassment of riches kind of moment.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:But is it like, is it what you set out to do?
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Because the life of a Broadway person is a much different life than whatever you're doing out here.
Guest:Yes, you are correct.
Guest:You are very correct.
Marc:And you were dug in there.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:I mean, to a point, I'm still entrenched in...
Guest:In what that is.
Guest:I miss it.
Guest:I miss the lifestyle of it.
Marc:I have to assume you miss it.
Marc:To rehearse for weeks and weeks and then get on stage and do a thing.
Guest:And do a thing and do it eight times a week and love the thing so much.
Marc:As opposed to like spend three weeks doing one dance number.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, and you know, it's a different kind of stamina.
Guest:I've come to like both schools or both types of work.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Both genres.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:However you want to talk about that.
Guest:But I enjoy both.
Guest:There's a comfort in knowing when you're working in theater that there's going to be a downbeat.
Guest:And then however many minutes or hours later, it's going to end.
Guest:Right.
Guest:making movies thing that i'm doing yeah it's like you work really hard for you know four months or so and that's it yeah and once you shoot a scene it's done you're not getting a chance to fix it so i hope you were really good right and also like it seems to me like and i always project this because i've done some work in in you know movies and television but you know once you leave the set you know you have a great time and you can say bye to your friends but that's it man
Guest:Yeah, presumably you may never work with these people again.
Marc:Yeah, or even hang out or talk to them.
Marc:But it's very intense when you're doing it.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But I feel like with Broadway, there's a community there that actually socializes.
Guest:We do.
Guest:Oh my God, we go hard.
Guest:Are you kidding?
Guest:Some of the greatest parties are Broadway parties.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it's also part of lifestyles.
Guest:I remember playing Donna Summer and it...
Guest:that was a 90 minute show really.
Guest:But then I walked my happy little ass over to bomb 45 every night and had my little cocktail to wind down and other people come from other shows.
Guest:That's the thing.
Guest:You hear about mishaps.
Marc:There's always other shows and other people.
Marc:And you're like, yeah, I'll come over and do that thing.
Marc:And it's a New York thing.
Guest:Or like Saturday night on Broadway in New York city for the Broadway community is a thing.
Guest:And each, uh,
Guest:Each show will host every once in a while.
Guest:So like we'd have a big Donna Summer party and then like the Dear Evan Hansen crew would host at their theater.
Guest:So I don't know.
Guest:You're able to do community building activities.
Marc:It's important and it's cool.
Marc:It doesn't really happen with the without like this out here, you know, it's a different thing.
Marc:And there's definitely like a class strata out here.
Marc:You know, people go to their house on the hill and then some of us go to our house in Glendale.
Marc:Well, I think it's not poverty here, but you know what I mean?
Guest:No, it's a different thing all around.
Guest:What I can say is observing that and also being in a different position now.
Guest:I am beginning to understand why people in certain positions live in their house on the hill.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Oh, for sure.
Marc:But it was dancing, right?
Guest:Yeah, I started dancing when I was three.
Marc:But for real dancing when you were three?
Marc:Well, no.
Marc:Where were you?
Marc:Where'd you grow up?
Guest:I was born in Wilmington, North Carolina.
Guest:North Carolina.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And my grandmother and my mom put me in dance class when I was three.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I really took to it.
Guest:And I knew even then that I loved it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I also realized, ooh, you're competitive.
Marc:Were you watching dance?
Marc:Or did you just like it?
Yeah.
Guest:No, it was just something about it.
Guest:I loved doing it.
Guest:And then once they discovered I loved doing it, they started to show me movie musicals.
Guest:But if you ask my Nana, she'd be like, oh God, I watched Beauty and the Beast more times than I care to count.
Guest:Or Aladdin.
Guest:I was really into the animated movie musicals.
Marc:Sure, but they're not dancing too much, are they?
Guest:No, but I will tell you, I will say, if you look at how those animated films are crafted, they are, they're full blown musicals.
Marc:Sure, of course.
Guest:And some of those characters do dance.
Guest:You just don't realize it.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I remember, I mean, you know, I'm old, so I remember Jungle Book.
Marc:That was a good one.
Marc:Look for the baby.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And they're just kind of shuffling around, shuffling around.
Guest:So it was great.
Guest:I loved that film.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But I really started dancing, taking it super seriously when we moved to Raleigh, North Carolina.
Marc:Raleigh.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's a good town.
Marc:It doesn't suck.
Marc:Progressive town.
Marc:Progressive town.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I like the Blue City idea.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Just terrified progressives.
Yeah.
Guest:It's fine.
Guest:We're surrounded by their different way of life.
Guest:But it was fortunate that I moved when I did because Raleigh was incredibly supportive of the arts at the time.
Guest:For sure.
Guest:Their politics were more blue.
Marc:How old were you when you moved there?
Guest:I was starting elementary school.
Guest:That is a bold-faced lie.
Guest:I was starting middle school, so I was going into sixth grade, which I'm assuming makes me 12 or 13.
Marc:And what's the background?
Marc:What's your folks do?
Marc:Where are they coming from?
Guest:Well, I didn't grow up with my dad.
Guest:He was not a part of my life.
Marc:Ever?
Guest:Ever.
Marc:Now?
Guest:Ever.
Guest:Nope.
Marc:Never sought him out?
Guest:No.
Guest:I never felt the need.
Guest:I was like, people make their choices around parents.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I mean, I've talked to people.
Marc:It goes either way.
Marc:Do you know that if he's come out to find you?
Guest:No.
Guest:No.
Marc:No, you don't?
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And I'm okay with that.
Guest:My childhood really was wonderful.
Guest:My mom is this incredibly strong-willed.
Marc:What'd she do?
Guest:She is a public school teacher.
Marc:That takes it.
Marc:That takes a strong will.
Marc:It does.
Guest:And she teaches eighth grade, which really takes a strong will.
Marc:In Raleigh?
Guest:She does.
Guest:She teaches at Wakefield Middle.
Guest:Still?
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Wow.
Yeah.
Wow.
Guest:She's great.
Guest:And she's one of the greatest educators I've ever seen in action.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:But when we moved to Raleigh, I went to the school that she taught at.
Guest:So that was an interesting experience.
Marc:So you're the teacher's kid.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:There was no getting away with anything.
Marc:I bet.
Marc:And then what about other kids?
Marc:Did they resent you?
Guest:Yes and no and yes.
Guest:Or maybe just yes and yes.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I mean...
Guest:I actually don't know how to describe myself in those early years because I was either for you or I wasn't.
Guest:I think I was that artsy kid.
Marc:So this is eighth grade-ish?
Guest:Yeah, eighth grade-ish.
Guest:I loved the arts.
Guest:I wanted to go to dance class.
Guest:I liked gym.
Marc:It was fine.
Guest:I was probably a fairly moody kid.
Marc:Art nerd?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did you start doing theater then?
Yeah.
Guest:No, I got into theater in high school.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But in eighth grade, you were dancing still.
Guest:Yeah, dancing.
Guest:I was in the concert band.
Guest:I played the heck out of a clarinet, I'll tell you that.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I was pretty good.
Marc:Can you do it now?
Marc:Nope.
Marc:Gone.
Guest:It's really sad.
Guest:But I do remember some of my theory, a little bit of my music theory, which has come in handy.
Guest:Has it?
Guest:Yeah, being a vocalist and an artist, I can make my way through sheet music.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And oddly enough, I have been in rooms where people who do what I do can't.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was like, oh, well, that's interesting to me.
Marc:So what was the theater experience like in high school?
Guest:I was focused on being a great dancer.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:In high school.
Guest:In high school.
Guest:And I'd been...
Marc:What does that look like though?
Marc:Are you doing competitions?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's what I was getting to.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was a studio dancer.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:I was a competitive studio dancer.
Guest:So like, yeah, you watch Dance Moms.
Guest:I was doing that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But my mom was not a dance mom.
Guest:Not at all.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But we traveled up and down the East Coast going to like-
Marc:She would take you?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was me and my mom driving in a car.
Guest:Sometimes we'd carpool with other single parent families, which was great because we created a sense of community for ourselves.
Guest:But we went to convention competitions that were really cool because you could take class all day as a student and lots of different styles of dance and then compete at night doing the routines that you would work on in your studio.
Marc:So it was like a whole weekend thing.
Guest:Whole weekend.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:With a bunch of other kids.
Guest:From all over, I won't say the country, but really the East Coast.
Guest:And so a lot of my friends that I really connected with were from different states.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But it was great because that sort of was like a precursor to my adulthood.
Guest:I have friends all over.
Marc:The world?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:now yeah i have friends all over the world and it's lovely um but that was a really formative time because i was meeting so many people especially choreographers that i would come to work with later and so i who were doing like you know like like so you think clinics for kids yeah clinics for kids or or a lot of them were are choreographing on so you think you can dance for okay fox television show and that oh and that how old were you when you did that
Marc:I was 18.
Marc:So what is going on in the personal life?
Marc:You're running around from town to town?
Marc:Are you just dancing all day?
Marc:Are you driving yourself crazy?
Guest:Well, I didn't view it that way.
Guest:I mean, I'm super dedicated.
Marc:Right, so just working the hell out of everything?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, yes, I was.
Guest:I mean, I took all of my academic classes in high school, but I was in every arts class known to man.
Guest:I was vice president of the chorus club.
Guest:I was helping to spearhead the dance department.
Guest:I was in the concert band.
Guest:At one point, I was in the marching band, and then I became a choreographer for the Color Guard.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I spun rifle.
Guest:I was actually really good in the Color Guard.
Guest:I loved it.
Guest:I loved that...
Guest:I don't know, that culture.
Guest:The regiment.
Guest:The regiment.
Guest:It's fire.
Guest:You can't tell me anything when that drum light goes.
Guest:It is everything.
Guest:It makes such a big difference in a football stadium.
Guest:I'm telling you, get yourself a marching band.
Marc:I saw like David Byrne did something with the color.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So good.
Marc:I interviewed him around that and I was watching that stuff.
Marc:It's crazy.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:It's a whole thing.
Marc:Culture.
Guest:It's a whole culture, but it teaches you discipline.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:It's almost military in a way.
Marc:A little bit.
Marc:But I mean, is it a culture that goes into adulthood?
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:You age out.
Guest:You do age out.
Marc:You mean there's no 40-year-olds like, I'm still doing color guard?
Guest:I doubt it.
Guest:They might be teaching the color guard.
Marc:So what kind of dance are you focusing on?
Marc:See, I have a hard time until I kind of think about...
Marc:you, in terms of what is the future of a dancer?
Marc:When you're a kid and you're like, I'm going to be a dancer, how does one make a living?
Marc:It seems like there's two ways.
Marc:Either you dance in one kind of show or you dance in another kind of show.
Guest:yeah well i mean that was what my mother was sort of looking at with me because she was like are you sure you want to be a dancer and i'm like yes yeah it's the only thing i want to do and at the time it was like you go to la and like dance in the los angeles hollywood community and be a backup dancer okay so what are the gigs for that really i mean like when somebody goes on the road i guess these concerts you go on the road if you book
Marc:With Madonna or Gaga or JLo or whoever.
Guest:You become one of their dancers.
Guest:And then now, well, in the last however many years, different artists are now having Vegas shows.
Guest:So Celine Dion had her Vegas show.
Guest:You could get a job as a dancer.
Marc:And that could go on for a year.
Guest:A year, two years, depending on how long they keep their residency and how long they want to contract you for.
Marc:So that was sort of it, the life.
Guest:You go gig to gig to gig.
Guest:You could do music videos, but that's it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:and that must be competitive as hell oh incredibly incredibly i mean i won't i mean it's sort of dog eat dog yeah at this point it still is i've to a point it always has been yeah but you could choose that path or you could go to new york city and become a dancer in a broadway show right essentially that's really what's available to you there unless there's dance work available to you on a television show or if they're making a film but
Marc:But it seems like it's- It's limited.
Guest:Unless you want to be a contemporary dancer in a company or a ballet dancer again in a company.
Guest:But it can't be limited.
Guest:That's a different way of life, one I know nothing about, to be honest.
Marc:Well, I mean, because it seems like when you're supporting a show, as a background dancer, it's like you got a guy that's like, oh, we're all going to do, and you've got a thing going.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I would imagine if you're working with Twyla Tharp or the Alvin Ailey bunch- Mm-hmm.
Marc:They're gonna twist you and you don't even know what's gonna happen.
Marc:You're gonna push your personal limits in a different way.
Guest:You do.
Guest:I would agree with that statement.
Guest:What they do is, I mean, especially when I think about anyone who's danced for Ailey and Twyla.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's its own counterculture.
Guest:Right.
Marc:It's small, right?
Guest:It's small because not everyone can do that, what they do.
Guest:It's so specific and specialized.
Guest:And it takes a different kind of discipline, a different kind of maintenance on your body.
Guest:People don't realize that as dancers.
Guest:It's like, yes, it's very magical what you get to see us do on stage.
Guest:But in order to be able to do that for you...
Guest:As an audience, it takes a lot of maintenance on our body and self-care.
Guest:And when injury happens, if it happens to a certain degree, it is crushing.
Guest:It is career killing.
Marc:The end.
Guest:It's the end.
Guest:And so you have to I always try to tell young people, if you love this, you got to really love it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because one thing could happen, it could take it away from you.
Guest:You're like an athlete.
Guest:You are, you're an athlete.
Guest:And again, I don't think the industry acknowledges that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Dancers are athletes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they don't compensate dancers in that way.
Guest:In fact, typically we're relegated to the background and asked to volunteer our services.
Guest:That happens frequently.
Marc:Like, what do you mean, free?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, free.
Guest:They will ask dancers to work for free for music videos.
Marc:No kidding.
Guest:There are artists today still doing that.
Guest:Or saying, I will pay you X, but then it takes five months to receive said payment.
Guest:I kid you not.
Guest:The biggest thing I've noticed from working on Broadway to now doing what I'm doing, from in juxtaposition from what my colleagues in the dance world are doing.
Guest:As a member of...
Guest:a union, I am guaranteed payment after a certain amount of time.
Guest:I don't have to wait.
Guest:There are some dancers who are doing gigs who a year later are still waiting on their check.
Marc:And there's no accountability.
Marc:Bad actors.
Marc:It's a bummer.
Marc:With club owners, it's the same kind of thing.
Marc:It's like whoever's running the thing and they always have an excuse.
Marc:Like, well, we didn't get the money from the guy.
Marc:The producer's got a problem.
Guest:Or even just down to like...
Guest:safety.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:Nobody's looking out for your dancers.
Marc:But the odd thing is, I start to realize when I was talking to you now, but thinking about it, it's out of all the disciplines of art, it's a smaller community.
Marc:It is.
Marc:Because the jobs are what they are.
Marc:And I imagine these people that aren't getting paid, there's got to be this whole other world of B-level productions that people are working their asses for that don't really get seen except on maybe a community level or regional theater level and all that stuff.
Guest:No, it's interesting because there's great regional work to be had as an actor, of course.
Marc:But it's... But just beating it out.
Guest:Beating it out.
Guest:Well, and gosh, someone said it to me recently and they were famous, but they were like, it's not about like...
Guest:the big famous jobs that you get, like being here in this industry, it's just about outlasting everyone.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:I was like, oh, I get that on a visceral level.
Marc:Outlasting in one way or the other.
Guest:In one way or the other.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So you do the Fox show.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:And that was a big break?
Guest:I don't know if I'd call it a big break, but it definitely redirected me to New York.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was my first big brush with rejection.
Guest:I was on season six of So You Think You Can Dance, and it was their first and only fall season ever.
Guest:And I made the top 20, and then I was sent home the first week of competition.
Guest:And my God, what a bruise to the baby, baby ego.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:18 years old, and I was voted off in front of 6 million people.
Guest:But mind you, the ratings on ABC's Charlie Brown and the Great Pumpkin were higher than that particular night's viewership.
Marc:So maybe not 6 million.
Guest:No, it was definitely 6 million, but 10 million people were watching Charlie Brown and the Great Pumpkin.
Guest:You see what I mean?
Guest:But it was still tough because I was...
Guest:18, and I didn't fully understand what I got myself into, if I'm honest.
Guest:I thought it was just really about dance and the craft, and it's still a television show.
Marc:So you weren't really thinking in terms of the business?
Guest:No.
Guest:Why would you at 18 years old?
Marc:Why would you?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Some people are surprisingly together and ambitious and have a plan.
Guest:I wasn't one of those folks.
Marc:You just wanted to be a dancer.
Marc:Correct.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My naivete was really showing through on that one.
Marc:But it's natural, though.
Marc:I mean, maybe you're a purist.
Marc:I mean, it sort of paid off.
Marc:It worked out.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But I imagine a lot of people that do that, that's the last thing they do in dance.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, some of them, yeah.
Marc:Like, you know, they did what they did and it's like, okay.
Marc:And their parents are like, so you got that out of your system.
Guest:That's so great.
Guest:Now what's your real job?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, what's your real job?
Marc:You didn't have to deal with that.
Guest:Well, no.
Guest:No, I didn't.
Guest:But I always had a really...
Guest:I've always had a really strong sense of self.
Guest:And, you know, my mother, when I finally decided to move- Really?
Marc:You seem like to have it.
Guest:You've always had it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Always.
Guest:I think I'm an alien or something.
Guest:But it's always been there.
Marc:That's a good parent.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes, it is.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I told you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Gina DuBose.
Guest:She's a badass.
Guest:But she said, when I moved to New York, she was like, well, I don't have any money to give you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You have what you have.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But you can always come home.
Guest:And I was like, I love you so much.
Guest:I will not be doing that.
Yeah.
Guest:And I didn't.
Marc:So you went to New York after you lost on the show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, by way of Cullowee, North Carolina, I attended Western Carolina University for about a month and a half.
Marc:Not for you.
Guest:No, it was not.
Marc:What happened?
Guest:I just...
Guest:I had already had that semi-professional taste of work, and I was like, I can do it.
Marc:I should go do it.
Marc:What's going on in your personal life at this point?
Guest:What personal life?
Marc:Nothing.
Guest:Nothing.
Guest:Just dance.
Marc:Ambition.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Competition.
Guest:I know.
Guest:You know, it's funny you bring up that little word, ambition.
Guest:God, I'm going to go there.
Guest:I remember watching Devil Wears Prada in the theater.
Marc:That's the best.
Guest:Freaking great movie.
Marc:I watched that movie so many times.
Guest:See?
Guest:It's like a good rewatch.
Marc:Totally.
Guest:But I remember seeing it and I left that theater crying because I was like, ooh, am I too ambitious?
Guest:And it was like I felt so checked by that film because I was like, you're watching Miranda Priestly.
Guest:You're watching Andy Sachs.
Guest:Two women in different positions in an industry, but they both have ambition.
Guest:And it's like it's not it wasn't a movie about the perils of ambition, but it was just like, what are you going to stand for?
Guest:What are you going to write?
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:I recently I wrote it down.
Marc:I said, because I know people, I said, ambition is not a point of view.
Guest:No, it is not.
Guest:That is very profound, sir.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because a lot of people have it and it is, you know, rewarded and it is taught almost.
Marc:I mean, that's what, you know, motivational speakers do.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you can have that and be very annoying.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:If that's all you're working with.
Guest:I think so.
Guest:So how did you check yourself, though?
Marc:Did you have to question yourself in terms of your authenticity or what?
Guest:Well, I mean, I was young.
Guest:I was still in high school when I saw that movie.
Guest:But that was around the time that I had realized I had really achieved a certain amount of success where I was as far as my dancing was concerned.
Guest:I didn't feel like there were any more challenges to be had.
Guest:So that's when I really dug into theater.
Guest:So I checked myself by putting myself in a circumstance that I actually was not the best person in the room.
Guest:I was not very good when I first started.
Guest:This was in North Carolina.
Marc:It was in high school.
Guest:And I ended up following the path of the environment where I was not the best in the room.
Guest:And I've been all the better for it.
Guest:And that continued.
Guest:Even when I left So You Think You Can Dance and it took me to Cullowee.
Guest:I went...
Guest:As a student in their musical theater program at the time.
Guest:Again, great dancer, not good at the other disciplines.
Guest:I really had to work hard, but I still was like, you know what, I'm going to go and I'm going to dance.
Guest:I'm going to go to New York.
Guest:So I did.
Guest:And I auditioned for everything, but it took me a minute.
Guest:I was not an overnight success.
Marc:What happened?
Marc:What facilitated it?
Marc:Who, you know, sort of... Who?
Guest:Well, I don't know who.
Guest:I was just like, I'm miserable and I gotta go.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yucks.
Marc:But... What happened?
Guest:Well, the day I got there, I landed in New York and I actually had a sprained ankle.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I wrapped that foot up, shoved it in a Nike and went to audition.
Yeah.
Guest:for a stint in One Life to Live, Starcross Lovers series.
Guest:They're musicalized episodes.
Guest:And I booked it.
Guest:I don't recommend everybody doing that, because safety first.
Guest:But I got the job, but I had to wait for a month and a half for the job to start.
Marc:That's good because your ankle got better.
Guest:Correct.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So I was sleeping on my friend's couch and rationing my food and getting up at 5 a.m.
Guest:to go stand in the non-equity and the equity line to try and audition.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was a lot of that over and over and over again.
Guest:And my mentors, Terry and Charlotte, Charlotte Dumboise, who is an incredible triple threat in her own right.
Guest:You would know her.
Guest:Roxy Hart in Chicago.
Guest:One of the greatest Terry and Hope Valentine's.
Marc:These are big Broadway people.
Guest:Broadway people.
Guest:Terrence Mann, you may know him right now from Foundation on Apple TV+.
Marc:So how did you meet with them?
Guest:I went to theater camp.
Guest:They run a theater camp.
Marc:When was this?
Guest:I was in high school.
Guest:A lot of stuff happened when I was in high school.
Marc:Theater camp.
Guest:Theater camp.
Guest:And that's where I met them.
Guest:And they were like, if you ever come to New York, let us know.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So like all this is in high school, you start exploring theater because, you know, just dancing might just be a life of competitions and disappointment.
Marc:And you want to broaden yourself.
Marc:You broaden your higher horizons.
Marc:And then you kind of crap out at college, didn't like it.
Guest:Didn't like it.
Marc:And then you decide just to go to New York and you're like, I'm going to call Terry and- Terry and Charlotte.
Marc:They said I could check in, right?
Guest:And they said I could check in.
Guest:And honestly, I didn't check in until like a month or two after I got there.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Just because I was like, let me try and do this on my own.
Marc:But you got the gig with the broken ankle before you called them?
Marc:I did.
Guest:I wanted to have something to show for myself.
Guest:It all, I don't know, it all worked out pretty well.
Guest:Eventually I booked Bring It On The Musical, which, like, it was an opportunity to learn how to make a musical, because it wasn't immediately going to Broadway.
Guest:We were developing.
Marc:So it was workshopping?
Guest:It was workshopping, and then we did an out-of-town tryout in Atlanta, Georgia.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:So this is all kind of new, learning how that business works.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:So, I mean, it was really quite extraordinary because I was, instead of going to college to learn how to do it, I booked a job and they taught me in real time how to make it.
Guest:That's the best way.
Guest:I agree, honestly.
Guest:But it was a great opportunity.
Guest:It was Andy Blankenbuehler, Lin-Manuel Miranda, Tom Kitt, Jeff Whitty, and Amanda Green.
Guest:And many of those folks I've gone on to continue to work with
Marc:I think you were in Hamilton when I saw it.
Guest:What?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Really?
Marc:I think so.
Guest:No way.
Marc:I can't remember when I saw it, but Lynn was still in it.
Guest:Yeah, I was in it.
Guest:Lynn was in it.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And it was great because he was a fan of my show and he gave me the good seats.
Guest:Amazing.
Marc:And at the end of every podcast, I say Boomer Lives.
Marc:It's my old cat.
Marc:But it was funny because he knew exactly where I was sitting.
Marc:So at the curtain call, he looks right at me.
Marc:He goes, Boomer.
Guest:I saw him earlier today.
Guest:You did?
Guest:I love him for that.
Marc:How's he doing?
Guest:He's good.
Marc:Nice guy.
Guest:He is a nice guy.
Guest:He's very generous with his spirit and his energy.
Guest:He is.
Guest:He doesn't say things he doesn't mean, and I do enjoy that about him.
Marc:So you're working with all these people on workshopping this musical, learning the game, and how does that musical do?
Marc:I don't know about Broadway musicals that much.
Marc:How did it do to bring it on?
Guest:It did pretty well.
Guest:I mean, honestly, if you know anything about the Broadway industry, if you run for six months, due respect, it's a bonafide hit.
Guest:If you run nine months, wow, you really got something on your hands.
Guest:And if you run for a year, well, then I'm going to throw statues at you.
Marc:So this was your life.
Guest:It was my life.
Marc:You were like, I did it.
Marc:Here I am.
Marc:I'm a Broadway person.
Marc:And you do all these shows.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:Motown the musical.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Very different from Bring It On.
Guest:And then I went into Pippin.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:And then I went into Hamilton.
Guest:And that was extraordinary.
Marc:So each time, are you learning new things?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Every show I do is different.
Marc:How's the singing coming?
Guest:When did you start?
Guest:That's a good question.
Guest:I mean, I got to New York and realized I needed to be a better vocalist.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:So I've trained the entire time.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In Bring It On, I had some lovely little solos, which was lovely.
Guest:And then I had to figure out how to sing Diana Ross tunes.
Marc:So you work with a coach?
Guest:I did work with it.
Guest:I've worked with a couple different coaches over the years.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Matt Farnsworth is my current go-to.
Guest:And how does that work?
Guest:You call them and you hope that they'll take you.
Marc:But what do you do in a coach session?
Marc:Like I've gotten to one vocal training thing who just taught me how to like.
Marc:Breathe.
Marc:Yeah, breathe and find my own thing.
Guest:Your larynx.
Marc:Yeah, whatever it is.
Marc:It's very moving to me.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah, but I don't, it's like, I'm like a closeted musical person.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:In the sense that I always like them.
Marc:I don't seek them out.
Marc:And I like to sing, but it scares me because it makes me very emotional.
Marc:So I don't embrace it as much as I use it.
Guest:Are you afraid of your emotions?
Marc:Not too much afraid of them.
Marc:I'm afraid of failing as a singer.
Guest:It's alright.
Guest:I was too.
Guest:I got over it.
Marc:But I like watching people sing.
Guest:It's enjoyable.
Guest:You're watching someone go on a journey.
Marc:Mostly musicals.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You want to know something?
Guest:I got better at being a singer by going to a bunch of clubs late at night and getting up and trying to sing songs.
Guest:Like karaoke or just like with friends?
Marc:No.
Marc:Cabaret?
Guest:Cabaret.
Guest:I'd go to different cabarets and quite frankly there's a
Guest:a lot of really bad YouTube videos that exist of me getting up and trying and sometimes failing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I guess you just got to do that.
Guest:You do.
Guest:I do.
Guest:I think if you want to do something, just go up there and try it.
Marc:I've been singing in public with cover songs and stuff.
Marc:And I did it at this place where I was comfortable with the audience.
Marc:I couldn't hit this one note.
Marc:That's okay.
Marc:Yeah, but I stopped and I said, I'm going to do it again.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And you know what?
Guest:Did they clap?
Marc:Because they should have.
Guest:They eat that shit up.
Marc:It's a vulnerability to that.
Marc:100.
Marc:100.
Guest:It's authentic.
Guest:And honestly, some of my favorite vocalists are the ones that you're like, are they going to make it?
Guest:you know what I mean like this is 100% respectful but Idina Menzel incredible vocalist but there are some performers I've watched her and I'm so in it with her and then I'm like ooh she gonna hit the note she gonna hit the note and then she hits the note and you're like yeah I know exactly yeah yeah there's an anticipation to it yeah it's like yeah that's it it's like it's like athletics she gonna nail it
Marc:So how does the opportunity to do this West Side Story come in?
Marc:How familiar were you with the musical?
Marc:I mean, what was it?
Marc:But before we do that, like what was the Donna Summer thing?
Marc:Like that was a big deal?
Guest:Huge deal.
Guest:I booked a Bronx Tale the musical and the Donna Summer musical kind of at the same time.
Guest:And it was around Tony weekend for Hamilton.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And that's kind of unheard of to book like two and one.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So those two musicals were produced by the same people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I don't know why they decided this was a good idea.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But they saw me in Hamilton and said, let's bring her in and see what she can do.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I ended up getting to play Jane in A Bronx Tale directed by Jerry Zaks and Robert De Niro.
Guest:And then in the same breath, they were like, great.
Guest:And also, would you like to play Disco Donna Summer?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So there was many Donna Summers.
Guest:There were three.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So different Donna for different time periods of her life.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I played Donna at the height of her musical powers, which was intimidating.
Guest:So I had to go out there and confidently sing MacArthur Park and Hot Stuff and...
Guest:whatever one baby yeah yeah i am yours forevermore yeah that one heaven knows that's what it is yeah yeah um but it was a real challenge for me because that that show forced me to come into my own as a vocalist right and i'd never tried to and like i was not trying to impersonate donna summer because why would you do that that's a terrible idea in my opinion
Marc:I think that's sort of the going thing to, that's the going wisdom on that.
Marc:Yeah, don't.
Marc:Because then it's just sort of, you can't mimic, really.
Guest:Yeah, I just didn't see the point.
Marc:Gotta get the vibe.
Guest:The vibe, you're looking for the essence.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:And so that's what I tried to do.
Guest:And sure, I found some like, she made very specific vowels when she was singing.
Guest:You know, oh no!
Guest:And they all have this timbre.
Guest:And nobody sings like that anymore, to be perfectly honest.
Marc:Why is it?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Maybe they can't?
Marc:How is that not coming back?
Marc:How is Disco not coming back?
Marc:I guess it's just integrated.
Marc:Should I bring it back?
Marc:It's all under there.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I think it's time.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Well, I mean, kind of like Silksonic, they're getting close.
Guest:They're getting, okay.
Marc:Right?
Guest:I actually don't know who you're talking about.
Marc:It's Anderson .Paak and Bruno Mars did a thing called Silksonic.
Marc:I love Bruno.
Marc:It's great.
Marc:It's sort of like later Motown-y kind of vibe, like 70s stuff.
Guest:Lots of trumpets?
Marc:I think so.
Guest:Trumpet work?
Guest:Oh my God.
Marc:It's just like there's a groove to it that is almost approaching disco.
Marc:You got to get the record.
Guest:I will.
Guest:You will find that I am an odd millennial and I don't actually understand many pop culture references.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know any.
Marc:I'm an old man.
Marc:I'm just saying that it's just a project the two of them are doing together.
Marc:I love that.
Marc:And they're both kind of like weirdly, you know, they're interesting talents, you know.
Marc:So you're doing Donna Summer.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And everyone has to reckon with you as a vocalist.
Marc:You've arrived.
Marc:This woman can sing.
Guest:Something like that.
Guest:Well, I'll go with your version of the world on that one.
Guest:But yeah, I became a Tony nominee.
Guest:I'm a Tony nominated actress for that performance.
Guest:And I'm really proud of it because I, you know, with the help of like Sergio Trujillo, who was our choreographer, I was able to turn this version of the character into one that actually was a triple threat role.
Guest:You know, someone, a character who uses dance to express how she's feeling.
Marc:Triple threat means dance, act, and sing?
Marc:And sing at the same time.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And that was a really, it's a rare opportunity because on Broadway, even to this day, they're not really making roles like that.
Guest:So it was cool to- Interesting.
Marc:What are they doing then?
Marc:Like, what do you mean?
Marc:Either you're dancing or you're talking or you're singing?
Guest:No, there's, I mean, everything is cyclical.
Guest:At one point, people were really riding for quote unquote triple threats.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then it sort of shifted and it began to favor what I call the park and bark, the stand and sing.
Yeah.
Guest:You come out, you do your scenes, and then you sing really, really well.
Marc:And then you move?
Guest:And you impress everyone.
Guest:And no, you don't move.
Guest:You walk off the stage.
Guest:You take your bow and you go home.
Marc:So the singer doesn't do any of the dancing?
Marc:Nope.
Guest:Not a single kickball change.
Marc:But that was a choice.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:A trend.
Guest:It was a trend, I think.
Guest:In my...
Marc:So the evolution then, you know, just in the short time you've been alive, you know, once you sort of all of a sudden learn the mechanics of how musicals are built and then you learn, you know, sort of like what are the positions one has in musicals?
Marc:And then, you know, you get these.
Marc:The goal seems to me to be was at some point to be a triple threat.
Marc:Confidently.
Guest:Always been.
Guest:It's always been the goal.
Guest:I mean, once I came to, once I got to New York and realized, oh, there's a space here and that I actually have the capability.
Guest:I'm capable of doing this.
Guest:That did become my goal.
Guest:I wanted to be someone, an artist who did all three disciplines really well at the same time.
Marc:And so Donna Summer just happened to bring it together.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:And now what's mom doing during all this time?
Guest:Mom's teaching.
Marc:But is she, like, crazy excited?
Guest:And coming to all my opening night parties.
Guest:Like, she's always my date for things.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she's very much like, cool, how'd that go?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Who'd you meet?
Guest:Oh, well, be careful what you say.
Guest:Like, remember, you have to, like, say it in a way that you can be heard.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But also be firm, because we don't let people walk all over us.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I was like, yes, Mom, you're correct.
Marc:So everything's going on.
Marc:You're Tony nominated.
Marc:Now, how does this thing happen?
Marc:How does it happen that you get this opportunity to do, you know, Anita?
Guest:Cindy Tolan, our incredible casting director.
Marc:Yeah, casting director, yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:open-minded queen that she is yeah she'd seen me in donna summer and had apparently i just figured this out had been asking me to come in for west side story and i had told my agent at the time that i needed to focus on keeping my show going i needed to show up and lead my show so i'm not gonna audition donna summer
Guest:So I was like, no, I need to be Donna Summer right now.
Marc:So you're dug in.
Marc:You're like, I'm a Broadway person.
Marc:I'm doing Broadway.
Marc:It's real interesting, the movie thing, but we're, you know, we do the real thing.
Guest:But I'm doing this Broadway thing right now.
Guest:And then finally, they called and were like, can you come to Brooklyn the next day?
Guest:And I was like, oh, well, fine.
Guest:I guess I'll go.
Guest:And now I can't believe that that was my, like...
Marc:Did they send you a car or did you take the train?
Guest:Absolutely not.
Guest:I took the train.
Guest:I lived in Harlem at the time.
Guest:I had to go to Brooklyn.
Guest:And if you know anything about geography, that's quite a train ride.
Guest:It's a schlep.
Guest:But I got there and I went and dagnabbit if Steven Spielberg wasn't there that day.
Marc:He was there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I didn't know that.
Guest:And I had told Cindy the night before that.
Marc:He didn't know it going in, but you knew when he got there.
Guest:When I got there and walked into the room and his lovely, charming Steven Spielberg face was there.
Guest:Was Kushner there?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:My hero.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:They were both in the room.
Marc:So that must have been like, you've just been like, what?
Guest:Oh, if anyone has learned anything about me is that I am a shockingly anxious artist.
Guest:And so Ariana said...
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What are you going to do here?
Guest:I told Cindy that I wasn't going to read tomorrow that day.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was like, I'll come and I'll sing and I'll dance.
Guest:I'm not going to do the sides because I'm not prepared.
Guest:I couldn't possibly be ready in time.
Marc:Now for a musical, is there like, I guess it wouldn't be on the first audition, but there's no sort of like five, six, seven, eight.
Guest:Oh, of course.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There is.
Guest:Oh, yes.
Guest:I walked right in and they said, great.
Guest:Come into this room and learn the choreography.
Guest:Justin Peck is going to teach it to you.
Guest:And it's like whole chunks of choreography.
Guest:And thank God.
Guest:On the first day.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I speak dance better than I speak English.
Guest:So I had that part.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the singing I knew because it's Stephen Sondheim's lyrics.
Guest:It's the Bernstein score.
Guest:I was well aware I got that stuff.
Guest:It was the sides that got me because Tony said, I'm going to adapt the hell out of this script.
Guest:He definitely did.
Guest:And he did.
Guest:The sides, which actually are not in our film.
Guest:But what we were auditioning with, incredibly wordy, a lot of substance.
Guest:And I was like, this isn't something that you walk in and you paraphrase or you make it up or you put thought into this.
Marc:Sure, sure.
Marc:So you're intimidated by it.
Guest:Oh, totally.
Guest:I was intimidated by the material.
Marc:But you have not done that kind of acting before, really.
Guest:Not really.
Guest:No.
Guest:And I also was like, this is not for nothing.
Guest:It is a great opportunity to be seen for something different, even though it's a musical.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You get to have real acting jobs and show that you have the capacity to do this.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So how did you pull that together?
Guest:Well, we got to the moment where he was like, great, can you stay and read for us?
Guest:And I said, no, sir.
Marc:It was Spielberg?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:To his face.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm pretty sure he looked at me like I had killed a puppy or something.
Guest:And then Cindy Tolan rushed in and was like, remember, we spoke about Ariana.
Guest:She's starring in a Broadway show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We got to her last night.
Guest:She's just asking for a few more days to be.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And thank God he was able to hear me.
Guest:And he looked at me and he said, you're not going to read today.
Guest:And I said, nope.
Guest:And he was like, but you'll come back.
Guest:And I was like, I really would be honored.
Marc:That's kind of like a big risk, huh?
Marc:Oh, balls.
Marc:Cajones.
Marc:I'm just thinking like if I was an actor, you'd be like, sure, I'll give it a try.
Marc:I'll give it a go.
Marc:Yeah, but you just didn't want to fuck it up.
Guest:No, I didn't.
Guest:I really didn't.
Guest:And it's not every day.
Marc:And you had enough confidence in your dancing and everything else.
Marc:You knew that, you know.
Guest:Well, it's interesting.
Guest:Someone, Kenneth Branagh said to me today, and I'll never forget it.
Guest:He was like, I loved watching your performance because it doesn't feel arrogant.
Guest:It felt like you just, you had a confidence.
Guest:And I was like, you know what?
Guest:I really appreciate that because...
Guest:As an artist, I'm like, I know that I know what it is that I know.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But I also know that there's a lot of stuff I don't know.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You get what I'm saying?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I was like, I appreciate that.
Marc:And all you can do is show up with who you are.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I was like, I know dance.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So I have that to offer you.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:The other stuff, let's collaborate because I don't know what I don't know.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So what did you do when you left with those sides?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I went home and I studied.
Guest:Actually, I went to do my show, and then I studied.
Marc:But you didn't study with anybody?
Marc:You didn't have somebody read them with you?
Marc:You didn't get somebody to- Oh, my best friend.
Guest:My best friend is named Jonathan Cabrera, and he's a better actor than I am.
Guest:We went to theater camp together.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But outside of theater camp, no coaching, no training, acting?
Guest:Every once in a while I took an acting class.
Guest:I had taken an on-camera class.
Guest:I took Bob Krakow's class once.
Guest:I didn't last very long, but he does give very good advice.
Guest:Matt Newton.
Guest:I took Matt Newton's acting class.
Guest:He was great.
Marc:So you just leaned into it, read it over with a friend, got it in your memory?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do you speak Spanish?
Guest:No, I'm not fluent.
Marc:Did you grow up with it?
Marc:No.
Marc:Do you have Latino in you?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:I am Latina.
Marc:I'm Afro-Latina.
Guest:My father is Puerto Rican.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:And again, didn't grow up with him.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:But that doesn't make me less of what I am.
Guest:I'm like, boo, I walk down the street.
Guest:I'm a black woman to half the world.
Guest:And if you know, I'm a Puerto Rican.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah, I can see.
Marc:You have eyes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I mean, like, so how did you learn Spanish?
Guest:I took lessons.
Guest:In fact, that was one of the reasons why I was nervous about accepting the job, because I am very aware that there's not enough representation in the industry, in my opinion.
Guest:And quite frankly, it's just a fact.
Yeah.
Guest:So I didn't want to take this job and then not do it well.
Guest:Or if this character was going to speak Spanish, she needed to do it really well.
Marc:Well, you did it really well.
Marc:I mean, you seem like you were from that part of town.
Guest:I'm glad.
Guest:That means I did my job.
Guest:And I'm...
Guest:No, I'm thrilled.
Guest:They armed me with like all the different coaches.
Guest:I'm still working on it.
Guest:I don't speak Spanish in public because I'll be honest with you.
Guest:I get really nervous.
Guest:And then I start to stutter and I get the words wrong because I still have maybe that's part of my own baggage or trauma.
Guest:Like I carry it in the language like I get my tongue starts to feel really heavy and I can't speak.
Marc:So you had dial coach, language coach.
Guest:Yeah, language coach.
Marc:You do those takes where you're like, they're like, you know, that one word.
Marc:Yes, exactly that.
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Guest:But it was constant.
Guest:It was constant.
Guest:And that's how I wanted it.
Guest:Victor Cruz.
Guest:I could not have done this without this man named Victor Cruz and Tom Jones, for that matter.
Guest:They were the two coaches on the film.
Marc:So when you go back, what happens?
Guest:Well, they put me in full hair and makeup, which that had never happened to me before.
Oh.
Guest:So they made me Antoinette.
Guest:And I did a chemistry test with two different Bernardos.
Guest:One of them was David Alvarez.
Guest:And I did read the scenes.
Guest:And I think I did a pretty good job with them.
Marc:Yeah, it seems like you did.
Guest:And then the next day... I think you got the part.
Guest:Yeah, the next day he called me from an airplane.
Guest:Steven Spielberg called me from an airplane and asked me if I would be his Anita.
Guest:And it was the coolest moment.
Guest:I was in a nail salon crying silently with like tinfoil on my nails.
Guest:And it was one of those New York moments that I was like, you can't make this shit up.
Marc:What is happening?
Marc:It was cool.
Marc:And then you start work.
Marc:Now...
Guest:how long before you started work you had to run the show oh so i he offered me the part in late september early october right they didn't announce the casting until january so i had to keep it a secret for three months yay and then we started pre-production in march and we started shooting in may i believe so how familiar were you with the original
Guest:Pretty familiar.
Guest:I mean, I... Did you watch it again?
Marc:No.
Marc:You didn't?
Guest:Not at all.
Marc:You didn't want to have it in your head?
Guest:Nope, didn't.
Guest:What would be the point?
Marc:I'm not trying to duplicate a recycle.
Marc:No, of course.
Marc:No, but I'm just curious.
Marc:I'm not even thinking about duplicating a recycle because, I mean, you know...
Marc:Kushner had the challenge of taking what was already a good musical and making a version of it that was both honored.
Marc:That one did not, you know, right.
Marc:So everybody was sort of in that position, like, you know, how are you going to make that better or just make a different version is what you're doing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But I imagine if you're watching the old one as a dancer, you'd pick up the dance before you pick any like, yeah, see, because it's like there was a different style then.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:Well, Jerome Robbins, that choreography, he had a very specific language.
Guest:And I'm very well versed in it, to be frank.
Marc:Oh, you know that, Jerome Robbins.
Guest:I do.
Guest:I know the legacy industry of Jerome Robbins.
Guest:And that comes from my mentors.
Guest:I was trained by some of the best in the industry in regards to my dance training.
Guest:And so I didn't need a refresher because it's part of what makes me me.
Marc:You.
Marc:So you start from scratch with everything.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:When do you meet Rita, who did the original?
Guest:Oh, my gosh.
Guest:I met Rita Moreno.
Guest:She came to one of our big rehearsal days, and we had sort of like community show-and-tell days.
Guest:So our producers brought in folks who were living in San Juan Hill in 1957, and they would come and talk to us and talk to what was going on on the block, what actually was going on in the gangsters.
Guest:Yeah, really.
Guest:We had an Irish gang member come.
Guest:We had old people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Like they brought in our elders to talk to us about their lived experience.
Guest:You know, Puerto Ricans came in.
Guest:We had Virginia, Virginia, who was an expert in Puerto Rican studies, came to talk to us.
Guest:And gosh, there were just so many different examples of that.
Marc:That's interesting.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's helpful because we're telling West Side for a New Generation.
Guest:In what world do any of us know what the hell was going on in 1957?
Guest:So I really appreciated it.
Guest:But she came on that day to sit with them and to talk about her experience making West Side Story, the film.
Guest:And then in the middle of one of her stories, she stood up and she goes, wait.
Wait.
Guest:Where is the girl who's playing Anita?
Guest:Where is Ariana?
Guest:And all my colleagues, I just, oh my God, I wanted to die, turned around and stared at me and pointed.
Guest:Thank God they were clapping.
Guest:It was supportive.
Guest:But I immediately turned red and I stood up and I was like, hi.
Guest:And she goes, you and me, guys, I'm talking to do.
Marc:That's how we met.
Marc:And what was that talking?
Guest:Oh, eventually I came out of hiding.
Guest:And I...
Guest:She took me to lunch and she was like, what do you want to know?
Guest:I'll tell you anything you want to know.
Guest:And I just said, I want to know anything you want to tell me.
Marc:Did you want to know things?
Guest:I wanted to know things about her.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Her experience.
Marc:Her experience.
Marc:She won an Oscar for it, right?
Guest:Yeah, she did.
Guest:She's the first and only Latina to win an Oscar.
Marc:And it would be wild if you won the Oscar for the same part.
Marc:Yeah, it would.
Marc:It'd be amazing, but also sort of a kind of a, it'd be a great thing, but it'd be kind of telling about the industry.
Marc:Like the only Latina Oscar, like these Oscars for the same, it's kind of interesting.
Guest:Well, it could be interesting.
Guest:It's not often that happens.
Guest:In fact, I believe Anita would only be the third character for that to happen to.
Marc:Have Latinas won Oscars since?
Marc:Not for acting roles.
Marc:Isn't that wild?
Marc:So it would be, I think it would be incriminating in a way to like you guys, this is it?
Marc:Two Anita's win in a hundred years?
Guest:A hundred years, not quite a hundred years.
Guest:Maybe 60.
Marc:It's interesting.
Guest:But it is interesting, but I can tell you something.
Guest:I choose to look at it this way because everything's choice.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:If I'm the first of anything, that means I will not be the last.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:So it's like if these things happen, if the doors can open, great.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Cool.
Guest:So now let's bring more people.
Guest:Build a longer table.
Marc:Well, that's the amazing thing about even watching the first one, the original, because it's accepted as one of the best movie musicals ever.
Marc:But because of the time, it was all brownface.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And that's just a reality.
Marc:Correct.
Marc:So, you know, the difference between then and now is profound.
Guest:It is.
Guest:And honestly, what you just said, I was like, that's the reason you you reimagine West Side Story so that you can allow Latinos to play Latinos like kind of period, point blank.
Guest:You know, we can revere the 61 film for for craft, but that still doesn't mean they got everything right.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:So, I don't know.
Guest:I just think there's a lot of work to do, but I'm excited that people are seeing West Side and embracing it.
Marc:And Kushner gave everybody real lives.
Guest:Yes!
Guest:Connected so many dots.
Guest:He built real, tangible, dynamic characters that it's a privilege to play.
Guest:And they're characters that all different types of actors would give their eye teeth for this.
Guest:It's amazing.
Guest:I need to...
Guest:Arguably is one of the greatest written characters of all time.
Guest:But what Tony Kushner gave me was like the connected dots.
Guest:And she is well written and it does not come along every day.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what was your relationship with him during the shooting?
Marc:How did that work when you guys are doing it?
Guest:He's on set and he, oh my God, script is king for him.
Guest:And I do love that about him.
Guest:But we're just very open.
Guest:I was like, come tell me what you're thinking.
Guest:I was like, I dropped a line.
Guest:I know I dropped a line.
Guest:Do we need it?
Guest:Like we always had a dialogue.
Marc:And Spielberg was like, what?
Marc:The three of you going over stuff?
Guest:I mean, it's never just three.
Guest:It's like seven.
Guest:But yeah, it's very collaborative.
Guest:And there wasn't a moment where they couldn't walk up to me or I could go to them and be like, this doesn't feel right.
Guest:Why doesn't it feel right?
Guest:And then we'd look at it on the page or watch it back on the playback and work it out.
Guest:I think we all understood we could not.
Guest:get to the finished product without each other you know yeah steven said something really cool today yeah he was like in this industry this facet of the industry there's no headliner it's like there's no one below there's no one above we're all on the same plane and i was like for steven spielberg to feel that way
Marc:In a musical?
Marc:No, in general.
Guest:In this industry and how we celebrate each other's work and how we view each other.
Guest:He's like, there's no headliner.
Guest:There's no above the line.
Guest:There's no below the line.
Guest:There's just the line.
Guest:I was like, that's cool.
Guest:That's how he treated us on set.
Guest:That was his process.
Guest:There was no above or below the line.
Guest:There was just the line.
Marc:It's an interesting project for him just to decide to do, isn't it?
Guest:I think it took him, you know...
Guest:So it took a long time for him to get the courage to finally do it.
Guest:And he said the other day, he almost backed out of it.
Guest:His wife, Kate, had to be like, you're going to make this movie.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So now you're an actress.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:I know it's like you're in the middle of this whirlwind.
Marc:When are the Oscars?
Guest:March 27th.
Marc:Not soon.
Guest:It is.
Marc:So what has come, what has happened since, like, are you getting offers?
Guest:I am, actually.
Guest:And it's nice.
Guest:I've never really gotten offered anything before.
Marc:Are they musical driven?
Guest:No, they're not.
Guest:And it's so great.
Guest:Sorry, I shouldn't make a feedback.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:They're not.
Guest:I was actually really worried that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, because like I did the prom at Shemigadoon and now West Side Story and I was like, that's a lot of musicals and I wanna try something new.
Guest:I wanna challenge myself.
Guest:So it's been really heartening.
Guest:The things I'm being offered, nothing to do with musicals.
Marc:Do you have, is there part of you that wants to do, do you want to have a recording career?
Guest:Maybe just waiting for the right opportunity.
Guest:I'm not trying to be Lady Gaga.
Guest:I just want to sing.
Guest:I like singing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I by no means consider myself a pop star.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I do love making music.
Guest:And I like when I do my cabaret shows, because I have done them and I enjoy them so much.
Guest:I treat my audience like they are in my living room.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So welcome to my living room.
Guest:It could be fun.
Marc:Well, I haven't seen like a show that's a cabaret show.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Really?
Marc:Have you?
Marc:Like a special shot as a cabaret show, like even on HBO or something?
Marc:I guess Bette Midler did some stuff at some point.
Guest:She did stuff like that.
Guest:Liza Minnelli's done stuff like that.
Guest:Well, then you have the variety show, the Sonny and Cher of it all.
Marc:Yeah, but that's a little different.
Guest:It's a little different, but I'm like, I don't know.
Guest:People like that kind of thing.
Guest:Yeah, they do.
Guest:There might be space for it.
Marc:Well, someday.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I wish you all the breaking legs.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:I appreciate that.
Marc:And it was great talking to you.
Marc:You did a great job.
Guest:You are awesome.
Marc:Well, that's very nice.
Guest:And by the way, you're really beloved.
Guest:Like, I can't tell you how many people were like, wait, you're going to do Mark Maron's show.
Marc:Oh my God.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:Like, you need to be chill.
Guest:You need to be chill.
Guest:I'm like, I am chill.
Guest:You're making me not chill.
Marc:Like, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You are so beloved.
Marc:Well, that's nice to know.
Marc:I need to hear that occasionally.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:You are welcome.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Okay, that's me and Ariana DeBose.
Marc:As I said earlier, West Side Story is now streaming on Disney Plus and HBO Max, also available on digital and Blu-ray.
Marc:And now I'm going to attempt to play some slide guitar because I had Bonnie Raitt in here the other day and she tuned up one of my guitars to an open tuning.
Marc:The strings are too light and the action is too low, but I got off on it and this is me just fucking around with a slide.
Marc:Because Bonnie Raitt tuned my guitar for me.
Thank you.
guitar solo
Guest:guitar solo
guitar solo
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey and La Fonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.