Episode 1298 - John Mellencamp

Episode 1298 • Released January 20, 2022 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening how's it going how are you holding up in these times of terror and weirdness what is going on with you are you making it through

00:00:26Marc:Are you?

00:00:27Marc:Through to what?

00:00:28Marc:What's the big payoff?

00:00:30Marc:I don't know, man.

00:00:31Marc:Might not be good.

00:00:32Marc:Maybe.

00:00:33Marc:Maybe today will be all right.

00:00:34Marc:I hope today is okay.

00:00:35Marc:So look, here's what's going on today on the show.

00:00:40Marc:John Mellencamp.

00:00:42Marc:Yeah.

00:00:43Marc:I heard he wanted to come on.

00:00:45Marc:Doesn't usually do this.

00:00:46Marc:And I'm like, John Mellencamp?

00:00:47Marc:Sure.

00:00:48Marc:I saw John Mellencamp open for Richie Blackmore's Rainbow in Denver, Colorado.

00:00:55Marc:And we were there to see Rainbow.

00:00:56Marc:No one knew who John Mellencamp was.

00:00:58Marc:He was John Cougar then.

00:00:59Marc:And I went to see the show because my buddy, Dave Bishop, RIP, was a big Rainbow guy.

00:01:05Marc:And we drove all the way up to Denver from Albuquerque with no tickets.

00:01:09Marc:And Dave just walked up to a couple in line and offered them $50 or $100 for their tickets, which was big money back then.

00:01:15Marc:They were like, sure.

00:01:17Marc:And so we went.

00:01:20Marc:And I saw John Cougar open for Rainbow, which I didn't care about Rainbow, but I was very taken with John Cougar to the point where I went out and bought that first record, the John Cougar record.

00:01:31Marc:I think it was his third record.

00:01:32Marc:I liked the guy.

00:01:34Marc:Now, of course, I don't know every record he's done.

00:01:36Marc:He's one of these guys who's done like 25 records.

00:01:38Marc:But he came over, and he was actually early, which I guess was surprising for his road manager, whoever was...

00:01:47Marc:handling him and he's you know we went through the house went out back he's like where's the smoking section i'm like right here man let me get you an ashtray so i sat there and we talked a bit uh while he smoked still at it with the cigarettes and um i had to tell him to shut up because we had to get on the mics but it was uh he's a character

00:02:09Marc:That I can say, a character.

00:02:11Marc:Big hit maker, Jack and Diane, Hurts So Good, Pink Houses, Small Town.

00:02:16Marc:He's John Mellencamp.

00:02:17Marc:He's John Cougar.

00:02:18Marc:He's Johnny Cougar.

00:02:19Marc:He's a member of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

00:02:21Marc:Founder of Farm Aid.

00:02:23Marc:Has sold over 60 million albums worldwide.

00:02:27Marc:And he's here with this new record called Strictly a One-Eyed Jack.

00:02:32Marc:which has a little duet on there with Bruce Springsteen called Wasted Days.

00:02:37Marc:It's one of these, not lo-fi, but low-key, deep groove, you know, old guy who's seen some shit type of records.

00:02:46Marc:You hear from Waits or Willie or older Dylan.

00:02:51Marc:But, you know, it's clearly Cougar.

00:02:53Marc:I mean, Mellencamp.

00:02:54Marc:Fuck.

00:02:55Marc:Don't tell him I said that.

00:02:58Marc:In other news, I'm sick.

00:03:02Marc:So what happened?

00:03:03Marc:So Sunday, I'm fine.

00:03:05Marc:Monday, I don't feel great.

00:03:07Marc:So I took a COVID test in the morning.

00:03:10Marc:No COVID.

00:03:12Marc:And as the day progressed, not feeling great, low energy, felt like I was getting something.

00:03:17Marc:And then the next day, I wake up.

00:03:18Marc:Yeah, I went to bed early.

00:03:19Marc:I went to bed early because I'm like, am I going to get this fucking cold again?

00:03:22Marc:Is that going to happen?

00:03:24Marc:The cold I just had?

00:03:25Marc:So I went to bed early.

00:03:26Marc:I woke up.

00:03:26Marc:Didn't feel great.

00:03:29Marc:Took another COVID test.

00:03:31Marc:Positive.

00:03:33Marc:Wow.

00:03:34Marc:To see those two bars after two years of not wanting to see two bars, after two years of once every two weeks going to Dodger Stadium with complete panic, the evolution from two years ago of just terror to dealing to, I don't know, are we okay yet?

00:03:53Marc:To vaccines, to see those two lines.

00:03:55Marc:It was like there was a moment of, oh man, I blew it.

00:03:59Marc:I was doing so good.

00:04:01Marc:I was winning the competition.

00:04:03Marc:But, yeah, I got COVID.

00:04:06Marc:And I'm okay.

00:04:08Marc:I'm...

00:04:10Marc:Three days in, I'm recording this on Wednesday, I would say.

00:04:14Marc:And I feel like at first it was weird.

00:04:18Marc:It was like I was, you know, I was tired.

00:04:21Marc:And then I kept feeling like I had something in my nose, like my nose was irritated and I was sneezy.

00:04:26Marc:And I woke up the next day, I had a little tightness in the chest, sneezy.

00:04:29Marc:I was very congested at night, but I never fully got so congested I couldn't smell anything.

00:04:36Marc:Never lost my taste.

00:04:38Marc:I pulled out the old oximeter and the thermometer just to be ready to check if things got bad.

00:04:46Marc:But it's kind of remained steady.

00:04:48Marc:I feel a little better today.

00:04:50Marc:I don't know.

00:04:51Marc:I'm quarantined.

00:04:52Marc:I've called everybody I was in contact with that I know, immediate contact with.

00:04:57Marc:I've let them know.

00:04:58Marc:I don't know if I called them, but I've let them know.

00:05:01Marc:I don't know where I got it.

00:05:02Marc:I'm not sure that matters.

00:05:03Marc:I can make assumptions.

00:05:05Marc:But the truth is,

00:05:06Marc:is that I got vaccinated and I got boosted and I decided to live my life and as safely as I could.

00:05:13Marc:That included working, that included being around other people, that included working in a place that required Vax ID.

00:05:20Marc:But after a certain point with Omicron, obviously, that's just a crapshoot.

00:05:24Marc:So this is where I'm at.

00:05:25Marc:It doesn't feel, I feel like I'm going to be okay.

00:05:28Marc:I don't know.

00:05:30Marc:But it feels like I'm fighting something more than I have something, which I guess is probably true.

00:05:35Marc:Because of the booster, because of the vax, the special sauce, as Brendan calls it.

00:05:41Marc:But I'm doing okay.

00:05:43Marc:I can report that with the COVID.

00:05:46Marc:Yes, I got COVID.

00:05:47Marc:Finally.

00:05:49Marc:Finally got COVID.

00:05:51Marc:The weird thing about having the COVID...

00:05:53Marc:Outside of feeling it's loaded in some way.

00:05:56Marc:There's a little bit of shame to it that I'm trying to identify.

00:05:59Marc:There's a little bit of terror, which is understandable given what we've all gone through.

00:06:04Marc:There's a little bit of failure feeling.

00:06:07Marc:The odd thing is yesterday or day before yesterday when the COVID came on, my ear got better.

00:06:15Marc:I don't know what that's about.

00:06:16Marc:I got to figure that out.

00:06:17Marc:I got to figure out my ear issue if I get through this COVID.

00:06:20Marc:I feel like I might get through the COVID.

00:06:22Marc:I'm pretty sure I will.

00:06:23Marc:Knock on wood.

00:06:24Marc:Or wood veneer in this case.

00:06:26Marc:But that's still wood, right?

00:06:27Marc:Still wood.

00:06:28Marc:Do I have to go look for something wooden?

00:06:30Marc:Okay, I got it.

00:06:30Marc:My chair.

00:06:31Marc:I knocked on the wood.

00:06:33Marc:But I'm drinking a lot of fluids.

00:06:35Marc:I'm paying attention to how I feel.

00:06:36Marc:I've got my thermometer.

00:06:38Marc:I've got my oximeter.

00:06:40Marc:A lot of water.

00:06:41Marc:A lot of sleep.

00:06:43Marc:Taking it easy.

00:06:45Marc:I guess here in L.A., at five days, I will see how I feel and test myself.

00:06:51Marc:And I guess once I test negative, I can...

00:06:54Marc:get on with my life.

00:06:55Marc:But for the time being, I'm going to be doing some work here at home and just recovering.

00:07:00Marc:I have COVID.

00:07:02Marc:Oh my God, just saying it.

00:07:07Marc:Yeah, it happened.

00:07:09Marc:It happened.

00:07:10Marc:But I'm okay today.

00:07:11Marc:I will keep you in the loop, folks.

00:07:15Marc:Okay?

00:07:16Marc:Been listening to a lot of records and doing some research and doing some writing and doing some watching of the TV.

00:07:22Marc:My life doesn't change much other than I can't go to the store.

00:07:24Marc:It was so weird because I know I can't go anywhere.

00:07:28Marc:But I had this dream last night that I knew I had COVID and I went out to an art opening.

00:07:34Marc:And I was walking around and it was almost like, oh, my God, I just like I have COVID.

00:07:40Marc:What am I doing here?

00:07:41Marc:And then there was part of me that was sort of like, well, there was a couple of people that I wanted to have COVID.

00:07:47Marc:I don't know.

00:07:48Marc:I don't know what that's about.

00:07:49Marc:And I don't know who those people were, but it was a dream.

00:07:52Marc:It was a dream.

00:07:54Marc:And I'm owning it.

00:07:55Marc:I can't I cannot answer for what my unconscious does.

00:07:58Marc:I'll work on it.

00:07:59Marc:I'll figure out what was going on there.

00:08:01Marc:Also.

00:08:02Marc:Moon Tower Comedy Festival just announced, and I am going to be there.

00:08:09Marc:In Austin, I'm going to Austin to do this show.

00:08:13Marc:I guess that's how we worked it out.

00:08:15Marc:I think I'm still allowed in Austin.

00:08:19Marc:Yeah, I think it's the 22nd of April, but go check it out.

00:08:23Marc:I think it should be on my site by now.

00:08:26Marc:I'll make sure it is, but I will be at Moon Tower in April in Austin.

00:08:30Marc:All right?

00:08:31Marc:That's the news.

00:08:32Marc:I have COVID.

00:08:36Marc:I have COVID.

00:08:38Marc:So look, John Mellencamp is here, was here.

00:08:43Marc:This is him.

00:08:44Marc:I'm going to talk to him, and you're going to hear it in a second.

00:08:46Marc:The new record is Strictly a One-Eyed Jack.

00:08:49Marc:That comes out tomorrow.

00:08:50Marc:You can get it wherever you get music.

00:08:52Marc:It was fun talking to him.

00:08:54Marc:I think he's kind of a one-of-a-kind guy.

00:08:58Marc:This is me talking to John Mellencamp.

00:09:02John Mellencamp

00:09:08Marc:I've been playing guitar a long time, but I never really was in a band.

00:09:15Marc:I always loved doing it, but I never made it my dream, so I still enjoy it.

00:09:22Marc:None of these are haunted with failure of any kind.

00:09:27Marc:And I try to get as many of them as I can for free.

00:09:30Marc:That's my thing.

00:09:31Marc:Your goal.

00:09:32Marc:Yeah.

00:09:33Marc:And I play with guys now.

00:09:35Marc:I just started doing it because I figure, yeah, I'm going to die at some point.

00:09:38Marc:And it's a thing.

00:09:39Marc:I never really did.

00:09:40Marc:And I've been playing with, you know, Jimmy Vivino, the guy who plays with Conan's band.

00:09:46Marc:He's a studio guy.

00:09:47Marc:He's been around a long time.

00:09:48Marc:But he's been sitting in with me and he's been showing me licks forever.

00:09:51Marc:And it's fun.

00:09:53Marc:But again, you know, it's not...

00:09:55Marc:I don't know how you guys do it.

00:09:56Marc:I really don't know how you do it.

00:09:58Guest:What?

00:09:59Marc:I can get in front of people and do comedy.

00:10:01Marc:I can get in front of people and play.

00:10:02Marc:But to do the energy that it would take every night to play for thousands of people, I don't know how you do it.

00:10:10Guest:Well, I tell you, as far as I'm concerned, they don't pay me for going on stage.

00:10:14Guest:No.

00:10:15Guest:They pay me for leaving home.

00:10:17Marc:Right.

00:10:18Marc:So that's just a pleasure for you, just an added thing?

00:10:22Guest:I've done it since I was in my first band when I was 12.

00:10:26Guest:12?

00:10:27Guest:I was 12 years old playing in a bar.

00:10:29Guest:What band?

00:10:30Guest:A band called The Crepe Soul, and I was 12, and the other singer was 17, and everybody else was 21.

00:10:36Guest:The Crepe Soul.

00:10:40Guest:I think it was like 1965, 66.

00:10:44Guest:So that makes sense, that name, The Crepe Soul?

00:10:47Guest:We were a soul band, yeah.

00:10:50Guest:Oh, you were?

00:10:50Guest:Okay, okay.

00:10:51Guest:Yeah, we were a soul band.

00:10:52Guest:It was a black kid and me were the lead singers.

00:10:55Guest:I was kind of like the little monkey, you know, 12 years old.

00:10:57Marc:Yeah.

00:10:59Marc:So that's right.

00:10:59Marc:So that's really sort of where you started, like with that kind of Detroit soul thing, huh?

00:11:04Guest:Yeah, we did Sam and Dave and, you know, Bob and James.

00:11:08Guest:Hold on, I'm coming.

00:11:09Guest:Yeah, Bobby and James Purified and that kind of stuff.

00:11:13Marc:Well, I guess that stuff, like, I don't know, because I always identify people who come from around that area.

00:11:19Marc:With like some sort of Mitch Ryder trip.

00:11:22Guest:I produced Mitch Ryder.

00:11:24Guest:You did?

00:11:24Guest:Yeah, I did.

00:11:25Guest:I made a record for Mitch Ryder back in like 1984.

00:11:29Guest:How was that experience?

00:11:33Guest:I produced Mitch Ryder.

00:11:36Guest:That's it, huh?

00:11:39Guest:Yeah, that was it.

00:11:40Guest:How old was that guy when you produced Mitch Ryder?

00:11:43Guest:He was still pretty young.

00:11:45Guest:Yeah?

00:11:45Guest:You know, he wasn't like an old guy.

00:11:47Marc:Well, I mean, you say it like you chose to do it, right?

00:11:50Guest:Yeah.

00:11:51Guest:Yeah?

00:11:51Guest:Yeah, I got the record deal for him in a whole bit, you know.

00:11:54Guest:He didn't have a record deal.

00:11:55Guest:Right.

00:11:57Guest:But, well, let's just leave it.

00:12:01Guest:I produced Mitch Ryder.

00:12:02Marc:What's the name of the record so I can go get it?

00:12:04Guest:Never Kick a Sleeping Dog.

00:12:06Marc:Oh, that's good.

00:12:07Marc:Yeah.

00:12:08Marc:Yeah.

00:12:08Marc:So after Crepe Soul, it's weird.

00:12:10Marc:I don't know.

00:12:10Marc:You're not going to remember this, but it was a crazy story, really.

00:12:13Marc:It must have been 1977, maybe.

00:12:17Marc:Me and my buddy Dave had driven up from Albuquerque to Denver with no tickets because Dave wanted to see Richie Blackmore's Rainbow.

00:12:27Marc:Oh, God.

00:12:28Marc:And dude, I didn't even like Rainbow, but I like hanging out with Dave.

00:12:33Marc:So we go and pay 50 bucks to some couple in line to give us their tickets.

00:12:36Marc:We could do that then.

00:12:37Marc:That was a lot of money.

00:12:38Marc:And we go in and you open.

00:12:41Marc:And I was like, who the fuck is this guy?

00:12:44Marc:And after that, I went and bought that album, John Cougar record.

00:12:48Marc:And he's like that song, Sugar Marie.

00:12:50Marc:And he said, yeah, I loved it.

00:12:52Marc:He put on a great show.

00:12:52Marc:I'm like, Jesus Christ, fuck Rainbow.

00:12:55Guest:Yeah, well, we got kicked off that tour real quick.

00:12:58Guest:let me tell you something i've been booed off stage probably two or three times it didn't happen that night it didn't happen that night well it happened in uh in oakland with richie blackmore because they had advertised some other heavy metal band right you know and uh we didn't last long you know um

00:13:19Guest:it's weird because i thought like this guy's like jagger he's doing the songs jumping around and like i because i wasn't a metal guy i was like that that was my style yeah i didn't i wasn't a metal guy either how's how something like that happened how'd you get stuck with uh did you oh back then they didn't care about you know pairing people up properly it was just like you know this guy's on tour i mean i i i've opened up you know in the 70s for some of the weirdest fucking bands it's like whose idea was this you know like like who i

00:13:48Guest:Oh, what's the band?

00:13:53Guest:I don't know.

00:13:55Guest:I opened up for Kiss.

00:13:56Guest:Yeah?

00:13:57Guest:Got kicked off that tour.

00:13:58Guest:In the 70s.

00:13:59Guest:Yeah.

00:13:59Guest:I got kicked off that tour.

00:14:02Marc:Was there a point where, you know, on those first three albums that they ever linked you with somebody that you fit and that you had a good time?

00:14:08Marc:Never.

00:14:10Guest:Ever?

00:14:11Never.

00:14:11Guest:There was only a couple booking agencies, and I was with a guy named Jeff Franklin, who I think had a company called ATI out in New York, and they didn't give a fuck.

00:14:26Guest:they didn't care they just went they wanted to get anybody they could onto the big axe that's right yeah just you know and and i i played in europe in front of uh nazareth and let me see well that's not too terrible is it yeah it was terrible uh blue oyster call terrible

00:14:45Guest:here's the thing I remember about the oyster culture nothing personally against these guys but there was I was just learning how to do shit I was like a fucking kid I was in a fucking bar band and

00:15:01Guest:and uh i would watch these older bands and try to learn from them right now i did open up for the kinks and that's where i learned a lot right i learned a lot from ray yeah yeah i learned how to work an audience you know because you know it's easy to work an audience in a bar band yeah you know you just go take care of business and people go yeah great you know they don't care and dance

00:15:24Guest:But Ray was really a showman, and he was really good.

00:15:28Guest:And I did a hundred and some shows opening up for the Kinks.

00:15:32Marc:On what record?

00:15:34Marc:Fuck, I don't know.

00:15:35Marc:The first one, the first three-ish?

00:15:36Marc:No.

00:15:37Marc:The 70s?

00:15:39Marc:Maybe.

00:15:39Marc:Yeah.

00:15:39Marc:I don't know.

00:15:40Marc:Oh.

00:15:40Guest:I've made some.

00:15:42Guest:20 records or something.

00:15:43Guest:No, more than that.

00:15:43Guest:Yeah.

00:15:44Guest:Like maybe 27.

00:15:46Guest:So many.

00:15:46Guest:At least maybe like 36.

00:15:48Guest:Wow.

00:15:48Guest:Jesus.

00:15:49Guest:That's a lot of fucking records.

00:15:50Guest:Yeah, man.

00:15:51Marc:But the Kinks, you must have liked the Kinks.

00:15:52Marc:Kinks are a good band.

00:15:54Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:15:56Guest:I learned a lot from him.

00:15:56Guest:But Ray and Dave were enemies.

00:15:58Guest:They're brothers.

00:16:00Guest:They would spit on each other on stage.

00:16:03Guest:Really?

00:16:03Guest:Yeah.

00:16:05Guest:But Ray was great.

00:16:10Guest:He was nice to you?

00:16:10Guest:No, no.

00:16:12Marc:Okay.

00:16:13Marc:But you just watched.

00:16:15Guest:I watched him work, and they didn't like it because sometimes we'd get better reviews then, and that really pissed Ray off.

00:16:21Guest:That's back when you would play, you know, at night and the next morning.

00:16:28Guest:there would be a review in the paper.

00:16:29Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:16:30Guest:I mean, it was like that quick.

00:16:32Guest:Right, right.

00:16:33Guest:And so we'd have to get on the airplane.

00:16:35Guest:Yeah.

00:16:36Guest:And we'd have to walk by those fucking guys.

00:16:39Guest:It's like saying, Mellencamp blows off the kinks.

00:16:41Guest:It's like, ah, it's not good.

00:16:44Guest:Who wants to lead the way this time?

00:16:46Marc:Yeah, I remember when I got out of high school, I went up to Bloomington to look at that college, and it was like your town, up in Bloomington, Indiana.

00:16:54Marc:There was some place I went into, it must have been a record store, and it looked like you lived there or something.

00:16:59Guest:I do live there.

00:17:01Marc:I still live there.

00:17:02Marc:I still live there.

00:17:04Marc:They had stuff on the wall.

00:17:05Marc:It was almost like a shrine.

00:17:07Guest:Yeah, well, that was... There's still bars that I used to play at that have pictures of me when I was like 20 years old sitting in the bars.

00:17:17Marc:Well, you know, when I was going through stuff and trying to figure out how to approach the whole conversation, it just...

00:17:24Marc:I mean, you really fought the good fight early on to sort of pursue this fucking dream.

00:17:32Marc:It seems like nothing was easy.

00:17:35Guest:Nothing is easy ever.

00:17:37Guest:But the truth of the matter is that I went to New York.

00:17:42Guest:to go to the New York Art Student League.

00:17:44Guest:What year was that?

00:17:45Guest:1974.

00:17:47Guest:So you wanted to be a painter?

00:17:51Guest:Yeah, I'd already graduated from a small college in Indiana.

00:17:55Guest:You were painting in college?

00:17:56Marc:Or you were painting your whole life?

00:17:57Guest:Yeah, I've been painting my whole life.

00:17:58Guest:Really?

00:17:59Marc:Where does that come from?

00:18:00Guest:I guess my mother.

00:18:01Marc:Really?

00:18:03Guest:My mother was a painter.

00:18:05Guest:Good painter?

00:18:05Guest:No.

00:18:07Guest:No.

00:18:07Guest:But when I was a little kid, her art studio was down in the basement, which is where our bedroom was.

00:18:13Guest:My brothers and me shared a great big room that they had paneled that was called a bedroom.

00:18:19Marc:We had one of those.

00:18:20Marc:Panel basement.

00:18:21Guest:Yeah.

00:18:22Guest:And my mom...

00:18:24Guest:had five kids and so she would paint a little bit and then she would stop and had two or three days to go by and i thought god dang these fucking oil paintings take forever right so i started painting on them which really pissed her off right john stop painting on my paintings yeah

00:18:43Guest:So that's how I started.

00:18:44Guest:So I went to New York to really see how much it cost to go to the Art Student League and see if I had whatever it took to get in.

00:18:53Guest:And at the same time, I've been singing in these local rock bands, and I had some demo tapes, live tapes of me singing, and I just dropped them off.

00:19:02Guest:and the soul band or another another kind of band another kind of band oh yeah that was a whole bunch of bands which one which demos did you bring to new york uh a band called the mason brothers okay and uh we uh was it like roots kind of or yeah shitty

00:19:21Marc:Oh, that kind.

00:19:23Marc:Right.

00:19:23Marc:So you got the shitty demos.

00:19:25Guest:I had some shitty homemade demos.

00:19:27Guest:And I dropped one off at a management company called Main Man.

00:19:32Guest:And they managed Bowie and Iggy Pop and the Reed at the time.

00:19:37Guest:Yeah.

00:19:38Guest:And as it turns out, because I don't know if you know it or not, Mark, but I'm the luckiest fucking guy that you've ever talked to in your life.

00:19:46Guest:I believe you.

00:19:47Guest:I am.

00:19:48Guest:I'm the luckiest guy ever.

00:19:49Guest:You know what luck is?

00:19:50Guest:What is it?

00:19:51Guest:Luck is thinking you're lucky.

00:19:53Marc:It's just the way you look at things, I guess.

00:19:55Guest:Yeah.

00:19:57Guest:So anyways, it turns out the girl behind the desk at Main Man was from Indiana.

00:20:02Marc:Oh, shit.

00:20:03Guest:And she thought I was handsome.

00:20:05Guest:And so she said, I'll make sure that Tony DeVries hears these tapes.

00:20:11Guest:And so she said, well, better yet, better yet.

00:20:15Guest:And she walked back, and she gets the guy, and he comes up, and he looks at me, and he goes, yeah, nice meeting you.

00:20:20Guest:And that was it, and I thought, well, that's it.

00:20:24Guest:So I went back to Indiana, and then a day later, I got a phone call that said, hey, we want you to come, too.

00:20:29Guest:in and talked to us and i went well i'm in indiana i yeah i can't come back i just drove fucking 18 hours i can't come back so uh so they said well we're gonna send you a plane ticket i went wait a minute you're gonna pay for the plane ticket yeah and they said yeah yeah i said and you're gonna pay for the hotel room right and they go yeah yeah i said okay i'll be there if you're paying if you got the money honey i got the time yeah and you go and i got i was 21 20

00:20:58Marc:And you've already got like a family, right?

00:21:01Guest:Yeah, I got married when I was 17.

00:21:03Marc:Got married when you're 17.

00:21:04Marc:I was still in high school.

00:21:05Marc:But you stayed married to that woman for a while, right?

00:21:08Marc:Eight years.

00:21:08Marc:That's good.

00:21:10Marc:Let's get carried away.

00:21:15Marc:I've been married twice for eight years, and I tapped out.

00:21:20Guest:I was married once for 20 years.

00:21:22Guest:Well, that's better.

00:21:23Guest:Yeah.

00:21:24Guest:And I always hate when people say to me, oh, I'm sorry about you and Elena.

00:21:28Guest:It's like, what the fuck are you sorry about?

00:21:29Guest:Yeah.

00:21:30Guest:20 years is good.

00:21:31Guest:Yeah.

00:21:33Guest:It's real good.

00:21:33Guest:I mean, like, you know.

00:21:35Guest:That was the last one?

00:21:36Guest:Yeah, and yeah, it's like, it was good, and I got two boys out of it that are great.

00:21:45Guest:Which one, the first one?

00:21:46Guest:Third marriage.

00:21:47Guest:The third marriage, two boys.

00:21:48Guest:Yeah, I got two boys, and I got one girl, the first marriage, two girls, second marriage, which my second wife is from Glendale, was from Glendale.

00:21:56Marc:From right here.

00:21:56Guest:Yeah, and then Lane is from Pennsylvania, some small town in Pennsylvania.

00:22:02Marc:Two boys from that.

00:22:04Guest:Yeah.

00:22:04Marc:And you get along with all of them?

00:22:06Guest:All my ex-wives.

00:22:07Guest:All the kids.

00:22:08Guest:Oh, yeah, the kids.

00:22:09Guest:Oh, yeah, the kids are all great.

00:22:11Guest:Yeah.

00:22:11Guest:But I don't talk to my first two wives.

00:22:13Guest:Yeah.

00:22:14Guest:I guess you don't need to anymore.

00:22:15Guest:Well, yeah, the kids are all grown up.

00:22:17Marc:Exactly.

00:22:18Guest:We didn't have much to talk about it anyway.

00:22:20Marc:And we were married.

00:22:21Marc:Which is, I guess, why it worked out the way it did.

00:22:23Guest:Yeah.

00:22:24Marc:So you're 22.

00:22:25Marc:You fly back to New York.

00:22:26Marc:Tony.

00:22:27Guest:Tony DeVries, and then all of a sudden he says, okay, here.

00:22:32Guest:It was a good deal.

00:22:33Guest:I mean, you know, up until he gave me like 60 grand and said, go make a record.

00:22:40Guest:And I had never been in a studio before.

00:22:44Guest:Who was your producer?

00:22:46Marc:You?

00:22:48Marc:Me.

00:22:49Marc:They didn't set you up with anybody?

00:22:51Marc:They just got you a studio and said, here you go.

00:22:53Marc:Where's your band?

00:22:54Guest:Yeah, I didn't have a band.

00:22:56Guest:I just got some guys I knew.

00:22:58Guest:And we went to a little studio.

00:23:01Guest:There was a jazz musician in Bloomington named Guilfoy, and he had a studio.

00:23:06Guest:And we went in there and made the record.

00:23:09Marc:Oh, you recorded it in Indiana?

00:23:10Yeah.

00:23:10Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:23:11Guest:Oh.

00:23:11Guest:And then I thought it was a bunch of demos, which is what, you know, let's see what your voice sounds like in the studio and blah, blah, blah.

00:23:19Guest:Sure.

00:23:20Guest:And he goes, oh, it's fucking great.

00:23:22Guest:And we're going to put it out.

00:23:23Guest:And I went, whoa.

00:23:24Guest:Whoa.

00:23:25Guest:It was just a bunch of cover songs.

00:23:30Guest:Which ones?

00:23:30Guest:It was just a terrible, terrible song.

00:23:33Guest:Anyway, and so I go back to New York at his request, and he said, well, I said, you know, these are just all cover songs.

00:23:45Guest:He goes, well, the first four Rolling Stones records were all cover songs.

00:23:50Marc:Yeah.

00:23:50Guest:and by the way we're going to call you johnny cougar and it was like whoa no you're not yeah no no no we're not doing that yeah and they go and they kind of went well okay you don't have to you can go back to indiana if you want it was like uh let me see you guys are going to pay off my college loan yeah and you're going to give me a retainer each month and that was the deal

00:24:16Guest:so anyway anyway they hooked me up with mick ronson who was uh bowie's guitar yeah i know that guy yeah ronson was a great guy great player right oh yeah i'm a great guy yeah that's good anyway uh so then we took that those shitty tapes in and ronson did the best he could with them and then that was the record that was it yeah that was it and then i was fucked how are you fucked

00:24:42Guest:well i just thought you're johnny cougar you got a covers record out that's right i know i was everything was going no it wasn't it was going badly and and again and and then market got worse because they said you know you need to start writing your own songs it's like what yeah write my own songs he hadn't done that at all no i'd written maybe you know i lied once and told my parents i wrote universal soldier yeah

00:25:07Guest:But other than that, no.

00:25:12Marc:That's interesting.

00:25:13Marc:So coming into it, you really wanted to be a painter, and this thing fluked out.

00:25:18Marc:Well, it was a total fluke.

00:25:20Marc:Fluke is the perfect word.

00:25:21Guest:And you followed through with it, and now you're in it.

00:25:24Guest:I'm in it for 70 years.

00:25:26Guest:Are you shitting me?

00:25:27Guest:I've been making records for 50 years.

00:25:29Guest:You're in the music business.

00:25:30Marc:Maybe you should go back to art school now.

00:25:33Guest:I paint every day.

00:25:34Guest:Yeah.

00:25:34Guest:I paint every day.

00:25:35Marc:Is that the passion?

00:25:37Guest:really uh if i would have had the the money or whatever to support myself as a painter yeah i would have been probably a pretty good painter by now but now i'm just kind of average yeah i think you're good i mean you did you did the cover of this record right

00:25:53Guest:No, my son did the cover of this record.

00:25:57Guest:He's 24, 25 years old.

00:26:00Guest:He's a painter, too, then.

00:26:02Guest:And he's a real deal?

00:26:03Guest:He graduated from RISD, Rhode Island School of Art and Design.

00:26:06Guest:Yeah, he's a real painter.

00:26:08Marc:But that's you on the cover.

00:26:10Guest:yeah yeah yeah he painted me yeah it's good two two days took him to do that two fucking days and i looked at i mean he he this kid is such a good painter i look at him and go fuck you yeah he goes what do you think about this dad ah fuck it's interesting that you're like three generations of painter one way or the other

00:26:26Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:26:29Guest:Painting makes life bearable.

00:26:32Guest:It slows it down, gets you focused.

00:26:34Guest:It makes life bearable because I've been around so many people.

00:26:39Guest:I always admired you comedians.

00:26:40Guest:I know a couple comedians.

00:26:42Marc:Who?

00:26:43Guest:A whole bunch of them.

00:26:45Marc:From up there, Midwestern guys?

00:26:47Guest:No, like Bill Maher.

00:26:49Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:26:49Guest:And the hippy-dippy weatherman.

00:26:52Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:26:52Guest:George Carlin.

00:26:53Guest:George Carlin.

00:26:54Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:26:54Guest:I'd known George.

00:26:56Guest:I knew George.

00:26:57Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:26:58Marc:But you like comedians because why?

00:27:00Marc:We don't got to.

00:27:00Guest:You don't got no fucking crew.

00:27:02Guest:You got no sound.

00:27:03Guest:You got no lights.

00:27:04Guest:Oh, shit.

00:27:05Marc:Promoters know that, too.

00:27:06Marc:They used to, in the 70s, they always had comedians open for guys because people are still sitting down, and they don't got to pay to move drums or nothing.

00:27:15Guest:i know yeah yeah yeah i i i saw some comedians open up for people right in the 70s right yeah yeah they didn't they yeah well listen you know we we are the lowest rung of the ladder the artist is always the lowest rung

00:27:31Marc:It's weird to realize that, isn't it?

00:27:32Marc:No matter how big you get to a certain degree.

00:27:34Marc:I mean, it seems like some guys become mythic and above it all, but it takes a long time, but there's five of them.

00:27:39Guest:I don't think anybody does.

00:27:42Guest:No kidding.

00:27:42Guest:No, I know a couple bands who's had records rejected and sent back and told, no, no, we're not going to release these records.

00:27:52Guest:Big guys.

00:27:53Guest:Those guys.

00:27:54Guest:The Stones.

00:27:58Yeah.

00:27:58Guest:Yeah.

00:27:58Guest:Yeah, I think it was Tattoo You or something.

00:28:00Guest:They just said, no, I'll take it.

00:28:02Marc:Did you listen to that blues record they made?

00:28:04Marc:They were all blues records.

00:28:05Marc:No, I know, but that one just recently, the Blue and Lonesome that they put out a few years ago, straight up.

00:28:10Marc:It was all covers.

00:28:12Marc:Yeah, and no big publicity on it, but they just snuck it out there, and it's fucking great.

00:28:18Guest:Well, you know, it should be great.

00:28:19Guest:Those guys are— They know what you're doing.

00:28:21Guest:Yeah.

00:28:22Guest:Yeah, you get better the older you get.

00:28:23Guest:People don't really realize that, but you get better at what you do.

00:28:28Marc:I think that's true, and I think it's difficult for guys and people, women, whoever, who have the bulk of their sort of mainstream success when they're so young.

00:28:39Marc:Because I think you're right.

00:28:40Marc:This new record that you got here is great.

00:28:43Marc:It's a great record.

00:28:44Marc:And I think also the record, even the one record that was really transitional, it seems to me, was that one you did with T-Bone.

00:28:52Marc:That record's fucking beautiful because all the stuff that you did kind of...

00:28:56Marc:It gets into your pores and then it gets totally comfortable and you have complete control and you can own yourself in a different way.

00:29:06Marc:Like on this record, like you and Dylan and Waits and Willie, guys who aren't ashamed or aren't trying to hide at all, it really pays off when you're older because it's honest.

00:29:20Guest:Well, and you become like a vessel, you know.

00:29:23Marc:Right.

00:29:24Guest:I don't ever sit down anymore and go, I'm going to write a song about Mark.

00:29:28Marc:Yeah.

00:29:29Marc:Not anymore?

00:29:30Marc:That was the old days.

00:29:31Marc:That was the old days.

00:29:32Marc:I'd like to see those songs.

00:29:33Marc:No, you wouldn't.

00:29:36Guest:Anyway, you wouldn't like it.

00:29:37Guest:You wouldn't like it.

00:29:38Guest:Anyway, so, but, you know, I'll be painting and all of a sudden the voice in my head will go, I need to put the paintbrush down and write this down and be like, no, I don't want to.

00:29:46Guest:I'm talking to myself.

00:29:47Guest:No, I don't want to.

00:29:48Guest:And it's like, and then I'll write something.

00:29:51Guest:I don't even know what it is.

00:29:52Guest:Interesting.

00:29:52Guest:I don't even know where it's coming from, what it's about.

00:29:55Marc:Yeah.

00:29:55Guest:So on this new record, it was about, I was in about four songs and I realized it was

00:30:01Guest:the same guy talking about himself.

00:30:06Guest:The record's not about me.

00:30:08Guest:It's not?

00:30:09Guest:No.

00:30:09Marc:I always assume that.

00:30:12Marc:Songwriters have told me over and over again that it's not me.

00:30:14Guest:It's not me.

00:30:15Guest:I'm an observer.

00:30:17Marc:You're not sad and dark and see death coming?

00:30:21Guest:Oh, yeah, we all do that.

00:30:25Marc:So it's a little bit about you.

00:30:26Guest:Well, it's a little bit about all of us.

00:30:29Guest:Once you reach a certain age, you know, it kind of... Yeah, but you're saying the narrator isn't you.

00:30:34Guest:Correct, correct.

00:30:36Guest:And so I didn't realize that the same person was sending me the same songs, all these songs, or else I just finally got to the point.

00:30:48Guest:After 30 albums, I finally got to the point.

00:30:51Guest:You know, because we, you know, really, to be honest, I mean, I've talked to Bob and... Bob who?

00:30:57Guest:Dylan.

00:30:58Guest:Yeah.

00:30:58Guest:And other people.

00:30:59Guest:Yeah.

00:30:59Guest:And it's like, we just all really write the same four fucking songs over and over and over.

00:31:05Guest:Really?

00:31:05Marc:Bob said that?

00:31:06Marc:Yeah.

00:31:07Marc:Bob will kick... He's not afraid to put out a 20-minute song, though.

00:31:11Marc:So, you know, I guess he's written a few of those in his career, but that last 20-minute song about the Kennedy assassination...

00:31:19Guest:Let me tell you something.

00:31:20Guest:Bob's not afraid of anything.

00:31:22Guest:No.

00:31:22Guest:Why should he be?

00:31:23Guest:Well, I mean, you know.

00:31:25Guest:He's out there playing state fairs, dude.

00:31:27Marc:I know.

00:31:28Marc:Because he wants to.

00:31:30Marc:I imagine.

00:31:32Guest:He'll play.

00:31:32Guest:He doesn't care if there's an audience or not.

00:31:35Guest:You know, he could do what they do.

00:31:37Guest:The Stones.

00:31:39Guest:He could go out there with acoustic guitar and play Blowing in the Wind.

00:31:43Guest:But he doesn't do that.

00:31:45Guest:And I admire him for that.

00:31:47Guest:Because you just become like a fucking jukebox.

00:31:50Marc:Dude, he'll go out there and play an entire concert and you don't even know what song he's playing.

00:31:56Guest:Well, I know because me, Willie, I mean, Willie, me, and Bob did 100 shows together.

00:32:03Marc:You did?

00:32:03Guest:Yeah.

00:32:04Marc:Oh, my God.

00:32:05Guest:In baseball stadium.

00:32:07Guest:That was the last time I played outdoors.

00:32:08Guest:I'll never play outdoors again.

00:32:10Guest:That must have been great.

00:32:12Guest:No.

00:32:15Guest:Well, it was better than.

00:32:17Guest:Opening for Rainbow.

00:32:19Guest:Much better than that.

00:32:21Marc:Yeah.

00:32:22Marc:But do you get along with those guys?

00:32:24Marc:It would seem like I don't know how the road works, dude.

00:32:26Marc:Do you speak to them?

00:32:28Marc:Do you have some ribs?

00:32:30Guest:Bob would come into my dressing room, which is a trailer, really.

00:32:39Guest:It's one of those silver trailers, Airstream.

00:32:42Guest:And he would come in and hang around, and we'd bullshit around.

00:32:47Guest:But Willie always stayed on his bus, you know.

00:32:51Guest:He likes the bus.

00:32:52Marc:Yeah, he likes the weed and the bus.

00:32:54Marc:Yeah.

00:32:54Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:32:56Guest:That's no secret.

00:32:57Marc:Yeah.

00:32:58Guest:And so, yeah, it was, well, so I'll tell you how it went.

00:33:02Guest:Yeah.

00:33:03Guest:We did one summer, Willie, me, Bob.

00:33:07Guest:Right.

00:33:08Guest:The next summer, it was me and Bob.

00:33:11Guest:Right.

00:33:12Guest:That's all I'm going to say.

00:33:13Guest:It turned out to be me and Bob.

00:33:15Guest:Yeah.

00:33:16Guest:So we got along.

00:33:18Guest:Yeah.

00:33:18Guest:He seems to like you.

00:33:20Guest:Yeah, Bob likes me.

00:33:21Marc:It's nice.

00:33:21Marc:Yeah, yeah, it's good.

00:33:23Marc:So when you were told to write songs, like now that you see yourself as a vessel and these things are coming through you, which answers some questions for me.

00:33:29Marc:Because I have to, like I really listen to the lyrics, you know, and I'm not a lyrics guy.

00:33:34Marc:Usually I'm just a melody guy, you know, and a riff guy.

00:33:37Marc:I have a hard time with lyrics.

00:33:38Marc:But I'm listening to these lyrics and I'm thinking like, well, it seems like John's going through some stuff.

00:33:44Marc:But you don't think it's you.

00:33:45Guest:No, I think I'm seeing some stuff.

00:33:48Guest:Okay.

00:33:49Guest:You know, I mean, let's face it.

00:33:51Guest:I know you're like 55, 56.

00:33:54Guest:Okay, you're 58 years old.

00:33:56Guest:All right, so how many more fucking summers?

00:33:58Guest:No, I know.

00:33:59Guest:How many more summers you got?

00:34:00Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:34:01Guest:No, I know.

00:34:02Guest:I got like maybe 10 summers if I'm lucky.

00:34:04Guest:I've been smoking since I'm 14.

00:34:06Marc:Yeah.

00:34:07Guest:You never stopped?

00:34:09No.

00:34:11Marc:I smoked since I was 14.

00:34:12Marc:I stopped somehow.

00:34:13Marc:It took a long time.

00:34:15Marc:Nicotine lozenges, the candies.

00:34:17Marc:Just kept eating them.

00:34:18Marc:And eventually it went away.

00:34:21Guest:Good for you.

00:34:23Guest:Sometimes I miss them.

00:34:24Guest:Listen, here's the thing.

00:34:25Guest:What do you smoke?

00:34:25Guest:What kind?

00:34:26Guest:American Spirit.

00:34:27Guest:What did you start with?

00:34:29Guest:Marlboro?

00:34:29Guest:Yep.

00:34:31Guest:I used to, well, in the 70s.

00:34:33Guest:Marlboro Reds.

00:34:34Guest:Marlboro Reds.

00:34:35Guest:Yeah.

00:34:36Guest:Big Red.

00:34:37Guest:Big Red Chew?

00:34:38Guest:No, Big Red, a drink called Big Red.

00:34:41Guest:Oh, yeah, I remember Big Red, yeah.

00:34:43Guest:And potato chips and cigarettes is what I lived on.

00:34:46Marc:Was Big Red like a cinnamon soda?

00:34:48Guest:Kind of like bubble gum.

00:34:49Guest:Oh, bubble gum, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:34:51Guest:Yeah, it went pretty good.

00:34:52Guest:But anyway, I would drink four or five of those a day, smoke three packs of cigarettes, and eat potato chips.

00:34:59Guest:And that was my diet.

00:35:00Guest:And then I would wonder why I couldn't go to sleep at night.

00:35:03Guest:Why can't I go to sleep at night?

00:35:05Marc:I don't know.

00:35:06Marc:Never a drug guy, though.

00:35:08Guest:Yeah, when I was in college, but I quit taking drugs when I was 21.

00:35:13Marc:Yeah, just because?

00:35:15Guest:No, just because I was getting my ass beat too many times.

00:35:19Marc:Yeah, that's what happened?

00:35:21Marc:That doesn't sound like a good high.

00:35:23Guest:Was it?

00:35:24Guest:I would get stoned and I'd get drunk and then I would be trouble.

00:35:28Guest:Right.

00:35:29Guest:And then always be fucking trouble.

00:35:31Guest:Yeah.

00:35:31Guest:I was one of those guys when you would go into a bar and you would look at the guy and you'd go, I'll just keep away from that fucking guy.

00:35:40Marc:That was you?

00:35:41Marc:Yeah.

00:35:42Marc:But you can be trouble without liquor or drugs, can't you?

00:35:46Guest:Yeah, I seem to find trouble most places I go.

00:35:50Guest:Why do you think that is?

00:35:53Guest:I'm not for everybody.

00:35:55Guest:Yeah, I'm barely for me.

00:35:56Guest:Yeah.

00:35:58Guest:You gotta know the feeling.

00:35:59Guest:Sure.

00:35:59Guest:I'm not for everybody, you know.

00:36:03Marc:Yeah.

00:36:04Marc:I know, I know.

00:36:07Marc:I'm not for everybody.

00:36:07Marc:And then you find somebody that gets you, and then you just wear them down.

00:36:12Guest:That's pretty much the long and short of it, yeah.

00:36:17Guest:Yeah, I will.

00:36:18Guest:Can I write that down?

00:36:19Marc:Sure.

00:36:19Marc:Find somebody that gets you and you wear them down?

00:36:22Guest:Yeah, wear them down.

00:36:23Guest:I'll put that in a song.

00:36:24Marc:Okay, I'll give it to you.

00:36:26Marc:All right.

00:36:29Marc:So, all right, so when the guy tells you to go write songs...

00:36:33Guest:I mean... I know exactly what I said to him because it was like... I just looked at him and said, why?

00:36:40Guest:Yeah.

00:36:41Guest:There's plenty of songs.

00:36:42Guest:There's more songs already than we could listen to or sing or hear.

00:36:47Guest:If we started today and we lived to be 100, we couldn't listen to hear all of them.

00:36:52Guest:Why do we need more fucking songs?

00:36:53Guest:Yeah.

00:36:54Guest:But anyway, so then I started writing songs and... And you had a knack for it, did you find?

00:36:59Guest:No.

00:37:00Guest:No, it was a struggle.

00:37:05Guest:It was a fucking struggle.

00:37:07Guest:You know, it's like anything else.

00:37:09Guest:You know, if you went back and you looked at your first... Yeah, first jokes.

00:37:17Guest:Sure.

00:37:19Guest:Or even to bring the point more home to you, Mark, let's go back to your high school and talk to the first girl you had sex with.

00:37:27Guest:Terrible.

00:37:28Guest:It's terrible.

00:37:28Guest:Just see how good it was.

00:37:29Guest:It's terrible.

00:37:30Marc:It was pretty bad for the first couple years.

00:37:33Guest:Yeah.

00:37:34Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:37:34Guest:I think it's for all guys.

00:37:36Guest:Yeah, but you had a fucking kid.

00:37:39Guest:Yeah.

00:37:40Guest:And you know why?

00:37:40Guest:Because you weren't good at it.

00:37:41Guest:Because I wasn't no good at it.

00:37:43Guest:Exactly right.

00:37:46Guest:I was terrible at it.

00:37:47Guest:Whoops.

00:37:49Guest:I didn't know that was happening.

00:37:51Guest:I remember my dad telling me, he goes, John, they know why people get pregnant.

00:37:56Marc:Yeah.

00:37:58Marc:They figured that out.

00:37:59Guest:You shouldn't be doing that.

00:38:00Marc:Right.

00:38:01Marc:And too late.

00:38:02Marc:Yeah.

00:38:03Marc:So when did you feel like you had a handle on it?

00:38:07Marc:That record that I saw you tour on, that John Cougar record with I Need a Lover?

00:38:11Marc:No.

00:38:12Marc:No, I never.

00:38:14Marc:That must have made you some money, that song, huh?

00:38:17Marc:Yeah.

00:38:18Marc:With Pat Benatar, is that who did it?

00:38:20Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:38:20Guest:That's a big hit.

00:38:21Guest:She covered it, and I had a hit record with it in Australia.

00:38:27Guest:I was so far in debt by that time to the record company.

00:38:30Guest:It didn't matter?

00:38:31Guest:You couldn't even see it?

00:38:32Guest:Yeah, my whole thing was that I was so far in debt at one point to the record company that it was just like they would go, well, this is going to come out of your royalties, and I'd go, yeah.

00:38:44Marc:Yeah, oh, really?

00:38:45Marc:So you couldn't even fight it?

00:38:47Guest:Yeah, I didn't even care.

00:38:48Guest:I'm not going to ever break even anyway, so what do I care if I'm $10 million in debt?

00:38:55Marc:What do I care?

00:38:56Marc:So at what point do you, like, was there a moment at least where you're like, fuck it?

00:39:01Marc:I mean, was your mind always on writing hit records?

00:39:03Marc:Or how did it work?

00:39:04Guest:Well, for me, you know, I never was a critic's darling in the beginning.

00:39:09Guest:But as time went on, they seemed to line up.

00:39:12Guest:So I needed hit records.

00:39:13Guest:I knew that I needed to have hit records.

00:39:15Guest:Right.

00:39:16Guest:So, you know, I had a hit record with I Need a Lover.

00:39:20Guest:I had a song called Aim Me Done With The Night that was kind of a semi-hit.

00:39:26Guest:And then in 82, I released a record that had a bunch of hit records on it.

00:39:30Guest:And at that point, everybody just left me alone.

00:39:34Marc:Really?

00:39:34Marc:Yeah.

00:39:35Marc:That was American Fool?

00:39:37Marc:Yeah.

00:39:38Marc:And that's the one?

00:39:38Marc:Oh, yeah, that was a big record.

00:39:40Yeah.

00:39:40Guest:yeah whoo yeah they well the record company came down to i was down in miami making that record and wow and uh they came down and i played them three songs i'd been in there you know there's a guy in a band in miami it's fucking the early 80s you could imagine what was going on sure

00:40:03Guest:And we had been down there like, I don't know, 10 weeks and had three songs done.

00:40:10Marc:Who was the band?

00:40:11Marc:Was it the guys you were with forever?

00:40:13Guest:Yeah, they're still with me.

00:40:14Guest:Some of the guys are still in the band.

00:40:16Guest:Anyway, they came down and he just said, John, these songs are not any good.

00:40:20Guest:And if you don't get a hit record off with these, if you don't straighten these songs out, we're going to drop you from the label.

00:40:28Guest:And I just kind of went...

00:40:30Guest:Drop me from the label?

00:40:32Guest:How could you do such a thing?

00:40:34Guest:So anyway, the three songs that they hated was Jack and Diane, Hurt So Good, and Hand to Hold On To.

00:40:43Guest:All three top 10 records.

00:40:46Guest:They hated them.

00:40:47Guest:You need to put the Memphis horns on these songs.

00:40:50Marc:Oh man, dude.

00:40:52Marc:So you just said fuck you and did them anyways?

00:40:56Marc:And did they think like, all right, that's what you're gonna do, fine.

00:40:59Guest:No, I told, no.

00:41:02Guest:This is, you know, I'm joking with you, but there's another me that you don't want to know.

00:41:07Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:41:08Marc:I think I heard about that guy.

00:41:09Guest:Yeah, you don't want to know him.

00:41:11Guest:Anyway, I looked at him.

00:41:12Guest:I looked at the guy and I said, look, fucker.

00:41:14Guest:Yeah.

00:41:15Guest:I make the records.

00:41:16Guest:It's your job to sell them.

00:41:18Guest:Yeah.

00:41:18Guest:So don't tell me what to do.

00:41:21Marc:You should put that in another song.

00:41:23Guest:I already have.

00:41:26Guest:And, of course, they left those sessions with kind of a bad taste in their mouth.

00:41:33Guest:Yeah, right.

00:41:35Guest:But there were a couple people who believed in a couple of those songs, and they worked on them really hard, and voila.

00:41:43Guest:Big.

00:41:44Guest:Big, you know.

00:41:45Guest:But when you think about it, when you're dealing with the general public, that doesn't necessarily mean that the songs are good.

00:41:51Guest:It just means that you can write a song that the general public wants to sing along with.

00:41:57Marc:Yeah, but come on.

00:41:57Marc:It seems like you're pretty hard on yourself.

00:42:00Marc:When did you write a song that you just thought was good?

00:42:04Marc:Was that on Scarecrow?

00:42:06Marc:When did you say, this is a whole album, it's conceptually solid, and I'm proud of it?

00:42:12Guest:Well, I wasn't.

00:42:13Marc:No, I know.

00:42:14Marc:Not that one, but ever?

00:42:17Guest:Not yet.

00:42:18Marc:Not yet now?

00:42:19Marc:No.

00:42:21Marc:Oh, my God.

00:42:22Guest:No.

00:42:23Marc:All right.

00:42:23Guest:No.

00:42:24Guest:All right.

00:42:24Guest:I am one of those guys who strictly believe in push and shove all the time.

00:42:32Marc:But where do you get any sort of a sense of like, you know, so do you just think you're a good guy?

00:42:38Marc:No.

00:42:39Marc:I don't care about that.

00:42:40Marc:Right.

00:42:41Marc:I don't care.

00:42:42Marc:Okay.

00:42:42Marc:Do you think that you're a professional?

00:42:46Marc:There's got to be good things.

00:42:48Guest:Well, I'm not saying there are.

00:42:49Guest:I can't control what people think about me.

00:42:53Marc:Of course.

00:42:54Marc:But I just would hope that because you've done some pretty big stuff and good things for farmers and you've elevated a lot of people.

00:43:03Marc:You've made people feel good and have a place in the world.

00:43:07Marc:that you would hope that at some point you'd be like, I did some good shit.

00:43:12Marc:You would hope.

00:43:14Guest:You would hope, but I'm not there yet.

00:43:18Guest:I'm still pushing and slugging.

00:43:20Marc:Okay, so let's talk about focusing on putting your heart in the right place around raising money for the farmers and for others.

00:43:30Marc:You seem to have goodwill in you, and it seemed that the Scarecrow record was a big shift with all that stuff.

00:43:37Marc:What drove that?

00:43:39Guest:Well, it just so happened that when I wrote Scarecook, all the small towns in Indiana were disappearing and were going out of business.

00:43:50Guest:All the little towns that I had.

00:43:52Guest:haunted when I was in high school for girls and stuff.

00:43:56Guest:There was like, you know, the post office was gone, the filling station was gone.

00:44:02Guest:I couldn't figure out what was going on, and I realized that it was the family farms had been kind of kicked out of business.

00:44:10Marc:So you felt like your state was dying.

00:44:12Guest:I felt like the whole Midwest was dying, and I felt like, you know, it dawned on me even back then that, you know, if you were going to buy a car, you would study the car over.

00:44:27Guest:What's this car do?

00:44:29Guest:How fast will it go?

00:44:30Guest:How many miles a gallon does it get?

00:44:32Guest:If you're going to buy a TV, you'll study it.

00:44:34Guest:But you'll put any motherfucking thing in your mouth.

00:44:37Guest:you know and eat any kind of shit yeah and i and i you know i thought you know we're eating shit if it's got a lot we go into a grocery store and you see a bunch of colored stuff you shouldn't need it right you know yeah so that's how scarecrow came about and then but you know the trouble with scarecrow again there was arm twisting going on with that record and i didn't like it

00:44:59Guest:and i didn't like you know people telling me you got to do i had a song called rock in the usa which went to number one yeah but i didn't want to put it on the album right because it was too it didn't fit the album right but i i got arm twisted by the record company same record company yeah you've been with them that long oh i've been with them forever and i i left and went to columbia which was a huge fucking mistake but i stayed there for a couple records and i went back and

00:45:26Marc:And the original record company was which one?

00:45:29Marc:Polygram.

00:45:30Marc:Polygram.

00:45:31Marc:So they got used to you making big hits.

00:45:35Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:45:37Guest:It would piss me off because I was trying to make a good album.

00:45:41Guest:And I would walk in and then go, how many hits on this record?

00:45:44Guest:And I'd go...

00:45:45Guest:what yeah they they all got to be hits yeah so but uh see i was very fortunate with the songwriting yeah lyrical content was hard for me uh but i was lucky that i was i'm able to make melodies quickly yeah and i can make up a melody

00:46:05Guest:real quick yeah and and a hook a hook i'm very good at hooks yeah you know yeah i mean i can tell guitar players go dad and they'll do it yeah and and they work so i'm very fortunate with that but i i struggled with my messages

00:46:25Guest:I did a poor job, I think, a lot of times.

00:46:29Guest:With this new record, I think I'm finally getting to what I was meant to say.

00:46:34Guest:Yeah?

00:46:35Guest:Yeah.

00:46:35Guest:Because I've been writing, like I said, I've been writing the same four fucking songs forever.

00:46:39Marc:And what are those about?

00:46:44Guest:well it's about um not giving a fuck yeah you know how do you go through life and not give a fuck yeah but still be able to give a fuck when you need to yeah you know yeah and uh and then about uh

00:47:06Guest:Growing old with some sort of dignity, which I find most people just either give up way too early or they try to imitate themselves when they were kids, and it's embarrassing.

00:47:25Guest:It's embarrassing.

00:47:27Guest:And I didn't want to be one of those guys.

00:47:29Guest:So, you know, that.

00:47:30Guest:And then, you know, there's a couple songs about girls.

00:47:33Guest:Yeah.

00:47:35Guest:And then that's about it.

00:47:37Guest:Yeah.

00:47:38Guest:That's the whole thing.

00:47:39Marc:Yeah, that's about all I got.

00:47:41Marc:So when something like Scarecrow happens and, you know, you have this sort of broader concept record, I mean, going into that, you're not thinking these are the same four songs.

00:47:51Marc:I mean, going into that record, you had a vision, right?

00:47:56No.

00:47:56Guest:Mark, I've never planned anything in my life.

00:48:01Guest:I've never planned anything in my life.

00:48:03Marc:You kept working though, man.

00:48:04Guest:Mark, I told you when we first started.

00:48:07Guest:You were pushing, pushing.

00:48:08Guest:I'm lucky.

00:48:09Guest:I'm lucky.

00:48:10Guest:Luck is thinking you're lucky.

00:48:12Guest:I think I'm lucky.

00:48:13Guest:So I just go with it and then don't try to, you know, my best songs, my best paintings are when I don't try to control them.

00:48:21Guest:I just let them go.

00:48:23Guest:I would imagine that you're best on stage when you're just letting go.

00:48:28Guest:Sure.

00:48:28Guest:Yeah, when you don't give a fuck.

00:48:30Guest:When you don't give a fuck.

00:48:31Guest:See, because there's only so many things you should give a fuck about.

00:48:35Guest:Yeah.

00:48:35Guest:And if you give a fuck about too many things, then when it comes time to really give a fuck about something,

00:48:40Guest:You're out of fucks.

00:48:41Guest:Yeah, you're out.

00:48:43Guest:You run out and nobody cares.

00:48:45Guest:And you're the kid that cried wolf.

00:48:46Guest:Yeah.

00:48:46Guest:Oh, Mark's mad again.

00:48:47Guest:Yeah.

00:48:48Guest:It's like, well, who gives a fuck?

00:48:49Guest:He's always mad.

00:48:50Guest:Right.

00:48:50Guest:You know.

00:48:51Marc:This sounds like a lesson hard learned.

00:48:54Marc:It is.

00:48:54Marc:Yeah.

00:48:58Marc:It's hard being the mad guy, buddy.

00:49:00Marc:No, it's not.

00:49:02Marc:I've done it my whole life.

00:49:04Marc:You're going to tell me that song on the new record about not having any friends and lying to strangers is not about you?

00:49:10Guest:No.

00:49:11Guest:Okay.

00:49:12Guest:I love that.

00:49:15Guest:It just dawned on me during the pandemic.

00:49:18Guest:Well, actually, right before the pandemic, when we had that president.

00:49:26Guest:How many fucking lies is this guy gonna tell?

00:49:29Guest:And then I thought, well, how many lies do we hear a day

00:49:37Guest:And so I looked it up, and it was like, we hear almost 500 lies a day, and we tell like 150 ourselves.

00:49:46Marc:Really?

00:49:47Marc:Yeah.

00:49:47Marc:There's numbers on that.

00:49:48Marc:There's research.

00:49:50Marc:Yeah.

00:49:50Marc:Hard data.

00:49:51Marc:Science.

00:49:54Marc:Science.

00:49:54Marc:I think you're lying to me right now.

00:49:57Marc:Chances are.

00:49:59Yeah.

00:50:00Marc:Odds are, yeah.

00:50:01Marc:Chances are.

00:50:02Marc:Well, that's interesting.

00:50:03Marc:So that's what drove that one.

00:50:05Guest:Yeah.

00:50:06Guest:I always lie to strangers.

00:50:08Guest:And so do you.

00:50:09Marc:Yeah.

00:50:10Marc:If you lie to yourself, you're going to lie to others.

00:50:12Marc:Yeah.

00:50:13Marc:Because, you know, what do you know?

00:50:15Guest:Nothing.

00:50:16Guest:I mean, and when you're 70 years old, you really realize that you don't know too much.

00:50:21Marc:Well, let's talk about like the sound, man, because like what was interesting about, what's really kind of interesting to me in the sense, like when I listen to, let me see which one is it, because I can't, oh, did you say such a thing?

00:50:32Marc:Is that Bruce singing with you?

00:50:34Guest:Yeah.

00:50:34Marc:Yeah.

00:50:34Marc:But what's great about that song is the other ones are kind of heavy in a way, and the sound is spaced out, your voice is right up front.

00:50:43Marc:But that song, same tone, the production's similar, but right when that snare comes in, you're like, hey, that's John Mellencamp's snare.

00:50:51Guest:See, you know what's funny is that American Fool, going back to that record, we spent forever creating that sound.

00:51:02Marc:That snare?

00:51:03Guest:Yeah.

00:51:03Guest:And people told me at the time that they would pull their car over and go, what the fuck is making that sound?

00:51:10Marc:Oh, so it's a thing.

00:51:11Guest:Yeah, because at the time, all drums were recorded in drum booths.

00:51:17Guest:Uh-huh.

00:51:17Guest:And we didn't go into a drum booth.

00:51:19Guest:Right.

00:51:20Guest:So we came up with all different kind of ways of not traditionally miking a drum kit.

00:51:26Guest:Uh-huh.

00:51:27Guest:You know, let's figure out a new way as opposed to this mic on this thing.

00:51:31Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:51:32Guest:And then put the drummer in a little box.

00:51:34Guest:Right.

00:51:34Guest:He was in a great big fucking room.

00:51:36Guest:That guy, Kenny?

00:51:37Guest:Yeah.

00:51:37Guest:Yeah, Kenny.

00:51:38Guest:How do you know this shit?

00:51:40Guest:I looked it up.

00:51:41Guest:Yeah, good.

00:51:41Guest:Okay.

00:51:42Guest:Anyway, so we had mics everywhere.

00:51:44Guest:Yeah.

00:51:45Guest:Ambient mics.

00:51:47Guest:Uh-huh.

00:51:47Guest:And then we just twiddled around with it until we got what we liked.

00:51:50Guest:And then, you know, I told the engineer, I said, look, when you hear those old Motown songs, you hear the voice.

00:51:57Guest:and you hear the fucking drums.

00:52:00Guest:And so that's all the, you know, as long as you can hear me singing and you can hear the fucking drums kicking, that's just, you know.

00:52:07Marc:That's it.

00:52:07Marc:That was what was on your mind.

00:52:08Guest:Yeah, that was.

00:52:10Guest:That's inspiration.

00:52:12Guest:I don't know about that, but that was the idea.

00:52:14Marc:John Fogerty told me.

00:52:16Guest:I wouldn't believe anything that fucker said.

00:52:18Marc:No, but it's just similar in that.

00:52:21Marc:Because I asked him about the production on those things.

00:52:22Marc:He's got some of those old records on Fantasy.

00:52:24Marc:And they hold up, you know?

00:52:26Guest:Yeah, they do.

00:52:27Marc:And I said, how did you approach production?

00:52:30Marc:And he just said, well, I just thought about the music coming out of an AM radio in a car.

00:52:36Marc:So, you know, when you're playing guitar, you put the guitar up front.

00:52:40Marc:When you're singing, you put the singing up front.

00:52:42Guest:That's exactly right.

00:52:44Guest:I mean, you know, I just had this conversation two weeks ago, because oddly enough, it's been like 40 years since Scarecrow came out, and the record company is remixing it and all this crap.

00:52:56Guest:I'm going to re-release it.

00:52:57Marc:Yeah.

00:52:58Guest:Anyway, so they would send it to me and I would go, you know, and I'd say, look, when the fucking voice isn't there, something's got to take its place.

00:53:07Guest:It can't.

00:53:08Guest:You can't just have the voice and then have the song go.

00:53:12Guest:Yeah.

00:53:13Guest:But so, you know, Mark, the choir to the voices.

00:53:16Guest:the more rockin' the band is.

00:53:19Guest:Yeah, man.

00:53:20Guest:Because you pull the voice back, and you hear... And you hear... You hear all that stuff.

00:53:29Guest:But if you got the voice over top of it, you can take a kick-ass track and make it sound like 1910 Fruit Gun Company if you want to.

00:53:38Guest:I mean, you can do anything.

00:53:39Guest:And that's what I...

00:53:41Marc:really don't like about music today is like where's the song well on this record like there are definitely like there's things you like you know there's grooves and stuff where you come from you know in in your mind and and in you know the history of you

00:54:01Marc:But that's interesting that you say that because your voice is right up front, but you're not you're singing.

00:54:06Marc:You're putting it all into it, but it's still softer.

00:54:08Marc:Right.

00:54:09Guest:Well, and to, you know, from smoking so long.

00:54:11Guest:Yeah, I am.

00:54:14Guest:I mean, we laughed about it.

00:54:15Guest:As a matter of fact, we a beat it in the studio.

00:54:20Guest:We laughed and it's like, man, your voice sounds like Louis Armstrong now.

00:54:25Marc:Yeah.

00:54:25Guest:Yeah.

00:54:25Guest:And I thought, great.

00:54:26Marc:But all these guys, I guess they know you so well and you know what you want.

00:54:30Marc:There's a lot of space there.

00:54:31Marc:There's a lot of space with everything.

00:54:33Marc:And all the rhythms, that weave-in country rhythms, the blues rhythms, they all kind of... Well, anybody can fill up the space.

00:54:41Guest:It's the space that's not full that really matters.

00:54:47Guest:It's the space around it.

00:54:50Guest:You can hear it.

00:54:52Guest:I used to say, don't take the living room off the record here.

00:54:55Guest:Yeah, right?

00:54:57Marc:That makes sense.

00:54:58Marc:So when did you feel like, I'm sort of fascinated with that T-Bone Burnett guy.

00:55:04Marc:Why?

00:55:05Marc:Because I think he's kind of like an encyclopedic generator of tones and sounds.

00:55:15Marc:Like, I think he's got... His points of reference are very unique and interesting.

00:55:19Marc:I don't think there's a lot of guys like him.

00:55:21Guest:There's not.

00:55:24Guest:But then again, I know T-Bone very well.

00:55:26Guest:I made three albums with him.

00:55:27Guest:Yeah.

00:55:28Guest:And I learned a lot from T-Bone.

00:55:31Guest:Right.

00:55:31Guest:I learned a lot from T-Bone.

00:55:32Guest:Yeah.

00:55:33Guest:Because, you know...

00:55:36Guest:My musicians are so good, and they've done it so long that we want to put music on everything.

00:55:44Guest:And T-Bone came in and kind of just went, wait a minute.

00:55:47Marc:What's the first record you did with him?

00:55:49Marc:Life, Death, Love, and Freedom.

00:55:50Marc:And he did No Better Than This, too?

00:55:52Guest:I think he executive produced it.

00:55:55Marc:But he was in the studio with Young Life, Death, Love, and Freedom.

00:55:58Marc:Yeah, he was there for that.

00:55:59Marc:He was there for that record.

00:56:00Marc:And so what were you saying?

00:56:02Marc:You were learning what?

00:56:02Marc:You guys are so good.

00:56:04Guest:Well, the musicians, I didn't say we were so good.

00:56:06Guest:I said the musicians were good.

00:56:09Guest:That they can play anything.

00:56:11Guest:I can throw anything at them, and in seconds they're playing it.

00:56:15Guest:And so you get real busy.

00:56:18Guest:You lose that space that you're enjoying off this new record.

00:56:23Guest:So he kind of just said, do we really need this guitar, this second guitar?

00:56:28Guest:Do we really want to double this?

00:56:30Guest:So I learned a lot from Tebow.

00:56:33Guest:And making it more sparse?

00:56:35Guest:Yes.

00:56:36Marc:making it sparse and letting the song speak as opposed to having a good song and covering it up with too much music uh-huh you know what i mean yeah well you you kind of lived through the worst of the production years what are you talking about just i mean in the industry like you know production has evolved hasn't it oh yeah it's got i mean uh

00:56:58Guest:you don't know how many fucking times i have walked in the studio and said if you guys don't quit talking about this fucking machinery i'm gonna kill all of you yeah i mean it's just like are you guys kidding me i i don't care about this reverb unit i don't care about it shut up about it you guys talk about that you know on your own time we're making a record here do you listen to music

00:57:23Guest:I listen to, yeah.

00:57:26Guest:There's records I listen to.

00:57:27Guest:Like who?

00:57:30Guest:Lots.

00:57:30Marc:Yeah?

00:57:31Guest:Lots.

00:57:32Guest:I'm an indiscriminate listener.

00:57:35Marc:So you just let it roll?

00:57:36Guest:Yeah.

00:57:37Guest:I'm an indiscriminate listener.

00:57:39Guest:I used to be kind of judgmental about other people's material, but I'm not now.

00:57:43Guest:I don't particularly like what I hear on the radio today.

00:57:48Guest:uh-huh is there radio well that's that's the point yeah i had i've asked myself before maybe you would but maybe you stopped listening john maybe you stopped listening maybe there's some good shit out there but you're not listening it's definitely a lot of stuff

00:58:03Guest:When I made that discovery about myself, I thought, you're right, I quit listening.

00:58:13Guest:It's hard enough for me just to make my own records, let alone listen to other records that I have to insert myself into listening to.

00:58:22Marc:Did you find yourself throughout a lot of your career, were you competitive?

00:58:27Marc:Or were you just angry?

00:58:30Marc:Just angry.

00:58:31Guest:I didn't really understand being competitive with other musicians.

00:58:37Guest:I thought we were all on the same team.

00:58:40Guest:And then I found out that wasn't the case.

00:58:44Guest:During the late 80s and early 90s, there were some competitions going on.

00:58:51Guest:And I didn't like it, and I just quit.

00:58:53Guest:like like how'd you find that out like what do you mean in that particular time period just you know guys doing the same thing as you no no no no no no you know it would be like you know everybody was doing the right thing yeah uh like i got asked to do a whole bunch of of uh things like farm aid yeah all the time right didn't you start that thing

00:59:15Guest:Yeah, I mean, well, Willie did, actually.

00:59:17Guest:And then Willie was in Bloomington.

00:59:19Guest:He called me up and asked me.

00:59:21Guest:And Scarecrow had just come out.

00:59:22Guest:That's how that all happened.

00:59:24Guest:But there were a lot of do-goody things going on.

00:59:28Guest:But when you pulled the curtain back, they weren't so do-goody.

00:59:32Guest:It was like, well, am I going to be on the primetime TV spot?

00:59:35Guest:Am I going to, you know?

00:59:36Guest:And it was like, I want to be part of this.

00:59:41Guest:This isn't the reason.

00:59:43Guest:I remember the one that I...

00:59:44Guest:they did money to clean the statue of liberty yeah and and coca-cola was sponsoring i just said no i'm not doing it and they wanted me to headline and it's like i'm not doing this yeah it's gonna be on national tv how can you say no no you know it's like i don't care about the fucking statue of liberty you don't have to do anything yeah don't make shit to me yeah you know yeah you know whether it's clean or not

01:00:06Guest:yeah it doesn't matter yeah and lady liberty what yeah you know that was you know world war ii yeah now it's just something people gawk at you know go up and look at there it is out there or have some kind of phony rah-rah right right we're americans yeah you know thing yeah most people don't even know where it came from france well i didn't said most people i knew you probably i thought it was a quiz no

01:00:33Guest:7-7s.

01:00:35Guest:What do I win?

01:00:35Guest:7-7s.

01:00:37Guest:What's 7-7s?

01:00:39Guest:What's 7-7s?

01:00:40Guest:Yeah.

01:00:40Guest:And what is it?

01:00:41Guest:49.

01:00:41Guest:Come on.

01:00:42Marc:Goddamn.

01:00:43Marc:Why know that?

01:00:44Guest:No, you didn't.

01:00:45Guest:You didn't answer.

01:00:46Marc:I thought it was a trick.

01:00:48Marc:I thought there was a turn of some kind.

01:00:51Marc:I don't know any tricks.

01:00:52Guest:I don't know.

01:00:54Guest:I know seven sevens though.

01:00:56Guest:You don't.

01:00:56Guest:I do.

01:00:58Guest:I just asked and he didn't know.

01:00:59Marc:I did know it.

01:01:00Marc:I mean I know seven times seven is 49 but I thought seven sevens you were going to like there was going to be some sort of joke to it.

01:01:07Marc:And it's just a multiplication.

01:01:09Guest:See that's the trouble with you deep thinkers.

01:01:11Marc:I know.

01:01:11Marc:Isn't it?

01:01:12Marc:Yeah.

01:01:12Marc:We're always looking for deeper meaning.

01:01:14Marc:Yeah.

01:01:14Marc:And it's just

01:01:14Marc:49.

01:01:15Marc:I learned a lesson today, John.

01:01:20Marc:Thank you.

01:01:22Marc:I gotta take it easy and just deal with what's happening now.

01:01:26Guest:Yeah, that's right.

01:01:27Guest:And remember that you always lie to strangers.

01:01:30Marc:So you got burned out on the sort of phony, you know, rah-rah, you know, the cause thing was a little bit, the integrity of it was not that great.

01:01:44Guest:And, you know, it's like, I just did a painting called No Heroes in America.

01:01:52Guest:Yeah.

01:01:53Guest:Because, you know, who are we going to celebrate?

01:01:56Guest:Yeah, I don't know anymore.

01:01:57Guest:Yeah, you know.

01:01:58Guest:Yeah.

01:02:00Guest:You really believe that Edison was such a good guy.

01:02:04Marc:No, he was a monster, I think.

01:02:05Marc:Yeah, he was a fucking monster.

01:02:06Marc:Poor Tesla.

01:02:07Marc:Yeah.

01:02:08Guest:Tesla was a huge... What about that poor guy?

01:02:11Guest:Tesla got a rough go.

01:02:12Guest:Okay, well, that's just... Henry Ford, monster.

01:02:14Guest:Yeah.

01:02:15Guest:Fucking monster.

01:02:16Guest:Christopher Columbus, monster.

01:02:18Marc:Yeah, that guy was real bad.

01:02:19Guest:I think they even took away his day.

01:02:21Marc:Yeah, I did.

01:02:21Marc:I think they did, yeah.

01:02:23Guest:I think they finally took away his day.

01:02:25Marc:Yeah, because he killed too many people.

01:02:27Guest:Yeah, like the people who lived here.

01:02:29Marc:Yeah, yeah.

01:02:30Guest:You know, I got news for you.

01:02:31Guest:We fucking, you know.

01:02:32Marc:Killed all of them, yeah.

01:02:34Guest:Everything we got, we stole.

01:02:36Marc:What was this Good Samaritan tour?

01:02:37Marc:That seemed like earnest.

01:02:40Guest:That was... I tried to figure out...

01:02:45Guest:I had a summer that we didn't have a tour booked, because you usually play in the summer.

01:02:49Guest:Back then, I used to play outdoors all the time.

01:02:51Marc:Do you need to do it?

01:02:53Guest:No.

01:02:53Guest:Yeah.

01:02:54Guest:I do it... Because it's what you do?

01:02:57Guest:Yeah.

01:02:58Guest:I live an artist's life.

01:03:00Guest:Right.

01:03:00Guest:I've never had a straight job.

01:03:02Guest:Right.

01:03:03Guest:You know, so I make something every day.

01:03:06Guest:I paint every day.

01:03:08Guest:I write songs.

01:03:09Guest:I write poetry.

01:03:10Guest:You know, even if it's just a matter of, hey, Mark, let's change this a little bit and put some color on it and kind of dampen it down so it doesn't look so bright.

01:03:20Guest:Yeah, sure.

01:03:21Guest:So just, you know, all kind of stuff all the time.

01:03:24Yeah.

01:03:24Guest:I was having a conversation with my wife and I said, what would Woody Guthrie do today?

01:03:31Guest:What would be the equivalent of Woody Guthrie going playing for the fields for the workers?

01:03:39Guest:And we had a conversation and came to the conclusion that it would be go play at lunchtime.

01:03:46Guest:in the middle of a town in a city where people go together to have their lunch and sing for Freeform.

01:03:58Guest:And so that's what we did.

01:04:01Marc:How did you decide on the towns and how did you promote it?

01:04:04Marc:We didn't.

01:04:05Marc:So someone would just run into where they work and be like, you guys, John Mellencamp's outside.

01:04:09Guest:Exactly.

01:04:10Guest:That's exactly what happened.

01:04:11Guest:And the first show I think was in Boston.

01:04:14Guest:And, I mean, nobody knew about it.

01:04:15Marc:Was it like Quincy Market?

01:04:16Marc:Where'd you do it?

01:04:17Guest:We did it on Harvard's Green Pastures.

01:04:20Marc:Oh, okay.

01:04:21Guest:And 800 people showed up.

01:04:23Marc:Oh, in Harvard Square where the buskers are?

01:04:25Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:04:26Guest:800, yeah.

01:04:26Guest:So 800 people.

01:04:28Guest:By the time we finished, because the Internet was just starting, we ended in Chicago, and there were 30,000 people.

01:04:36Guest:In the park?

01:04:37Guest:Yeah.

01:04:37Guest:No, in that square.

01:04:39Guest:I can't remember the name of it.

01:04:41Guest:But there's all these big high-rises.

01:04:44Marc:Jesus, what were you using for amplification?

01:04:46Guest:Well, that was it.

01:04:46Guest:I mean, I know nobody could hear.

01:04:48Guest:Yeah.

01:04:49Guest:Because, you know, we were just using little teeny amps that big, except that they... Like a champ?

01:04:55Guest:Yeah, like a champ.

01:04:56Guest:But they were battery-powered.

01:04:59Guest:Oh, wow.

01:05:00Guest:Well, you really made it difficult for yourself, didn't you?

01:05:03Guest:Well, you know, we didn't... What, did you think 20 people were going to come?

01:05:07No.

01:05:07Guest:well i mean let's go out on the corner and you still tell some jokes and i'll sing some songs let's send me people we can get together right you're not going to be that many right off the bat no i know and nobody knows where you're going to be anyway right so that we didn't even know where we were going i told you i never planned anything so me and elaine would look look at the thing and go well we can go to pittsburgh or we can go cincinnati in the car you were deciding

01:05:32Guest:In the bus.

01:05:32Guest:We had a bus.

01:05:33Guest:Yeah.

01:05:33Guest:We had a bus.

01:05:34Guest:Yeah.

01:05:34Guest:We were deciding.

01:05:35Marc:That's fun.

01:05:36Guest:And I never even told the guy, you know, I had two young kids playing with me and they would go, I wonder where we're going tomorrow.

01:05:43Guest:And they'd go, where are we going tomorrow?

01:05:44Guest:And I'd go, fuck if I know.

01:05:46Guest:Is it fun?

01:05:47Guest:Yeah, it was fun.

01:05:48Guest:Did you record it or anything?

01:05:49Guest:Yeah.

01:05:50Guest:As a matter of fact, you can watch it on TCM.

01:05:53Guest:Oh, okay.

01:05:54Guest:Turner Classic Movies has a website.

01:05:56Guest:Yeah.

01:05:57Guest:It has a channel, and you can watch it on there.

01:06:00Guest:That's fun.

01:06:01Guest:Yeah.

01:06:02Marc:What are you going to do with this record?

01:06:04Marc:Are you going to go out?

01:06:05Guest:Can't.

01:06:06Guest:I canceled.

01:06:07Guest:This is the third time I've canceled.

01:06:09Guest:Oh, with the COVIDs.

01:06:10Guest:Yeah.

01:06:11Guest:So you're just going to let it go?

01:06:13Guest:No, I'm going to... Like I said, this is my first podcast.

01:06:17Marc:Yeah.

01:06:17Guest:So, you know, I usually don't do interviews that much.

01:06:20Guest:Yeah.

01:06:21Guest:So I'm going to do interviews.

01:06:22Guest:I'm going to do... I don't want to be on TV, but I'm going to do some TV.

01:06:27Guest:Like what?

01:06:28Guest:I've been invited to do some stuff.

01:06:30Guest:You're going to sing?

01:06:32Guest:I don't know.

01:06:34Guest:We'll see.

01:06:35Guest:We'll see.

01:06:35Guest:Yeah?

01:06:36Guest:We'll see what they want, you know?

01:06:37Marc:Like The Tonight Show?

01:06:38Yeah.

01:06:39Guest:Is Carson still there?

01:06:40Guest:Not anymore.

01:06:41Marc:And there's been a couple of guys since him.

01:06:43Guest:Jimmy Fallon's there.

01:06:43Guest:You know, that's my biggest regret.

01:06:45Guest:I was asked to do the Carson show when Carson was, and I said no.

01:06:50Marc:I didn't do it with Carson either, and I eventually did it with Jay right before he left.

01:06:55Marc:I liked Letterman.

01:06:57Marc:Yeah, I liked Letterman.

01:06:59Guest:Well, Letterman's from Indiana.

01:07:00Marc:Yeah, he's another angry guy.

01:07:03Marc:Nothing's easy for Dave.

01:07:05Guest:No, he doesn't make it easy on himself.

01:07:07Guest:I'll tell you what his mother told me.

01:07:09Guest:His mother had dinner at my house before she died.

01:07:12Guest:And she goes, it's because of you that Dave went to L.A.

01:07:16Guest:And I said, how's that?

01:07:18Guest:And she goes, well, because Dave was doing a local television show in Indianapolis.

01:07:25Guest:And my first record came out.

01:07:27Guest:And in Indiana, that was like a big thing.

01:07:29Guest:And his mom said, Dave never told me this.

01:07:32Guest:His mom told me this.

01:07:34Guest:That Dave said, if this kid can do it, I can do it.

01:07:37Guest:And he went to New York or wherever.

01:07:39Guest:You did it.

01:07:41Guest:Yeah.

01:07:41Guest:And he's always been so kind to me, Dave has.

01:07:44Marc:Yeah, I'm sure he thinks of you as like a... A kindred.

01:07:48Marc:Yeah, exactly.

01:07:49Marc:Another Indiana guy.

01:07:51Marc:I'll tell you, though, honestly, that Jimmy Fallon on The Tonight Show is a big music fan.

01:07:55Marc:Loves it.

01:07:56Marc:Loves it.

01:07:56Marc:He loves music.

01:07:57Marc:He loves it.

01:07:58Marc:And he loves rock guys.

01:08:00Marc:I'm sure he loves you.

01:08:01Marc:And he gets really excited about it.

01:08:03Guest:Yeah.

01:08:04Marc:Yeah.

01:08:04Marc:Well, he might be an excitable person.

01:08:06Marc:He's a very excitable person.

01:08:07Marc:That's his whole charm.

01:08:09Marc:It's that he's excitable.

01:08:10Guest:Yeah, he gets excitable.

01:08:11Guest:Excitable boy.

01:08:12Marc:Yeah, exactly.

01:08:13Marc:Well, I tell you, it was great talking.

01:08:14Marc:Yeah, I'm honored that I'm your first podcast.

01:08:17Marc:And I'll put this on a post-it for you.

01:08:19Marc:Find someone that gets you and wear them down.

01:08:23Marc:I'm exhausted.

01:08:25Guest:Me too.

01:08:26Guest:And the worst part about it, I think people are exhausted with us.

01:08:30Guest:No, they're not.

01:08:32Marc:People don't know you.

01:08:34Guest:Well, I mean the women that we go out with.

01:08:36Marc:Yes, it always happens, dude.

01:08:39Marc:And right now, though, I'm in a situation where I'm like, I'm not going crazy.

01:08:44Marc:I'm keeping some boundaries.

01:08:47Marc:We're not fucking up each other's, you know.

01:08:50Marc:I'm just, the problem is, is like eventually, because of insecurity,

01:08:54Marc:You've decided this sort of situation, and then eventually you're going to be like, what?

01:08:59Marc:So what?

01:08:59Marc:You're over it?

01:09:00Marc:And then you start poking.

01:09:02Marc:And then they start going, no!

01:09:03Marc:And then the tone changes.

01:09:06Marc:And then all of a sudden it's like, no more fucking, just fighting.

01:09:09Marc:And then someone's crying, and then eventually they're exhausted.

01:09:12Guest:And then they're sick of you, and it's your fault, and you're mean.

01:09:17Guest:And then you write a new record.

01:09:18Guest:Yeah, and then you've got a whole bunch of new material.

01:09:22Yeah.

01:09:22Marc:All right, buddy.

01:09:23Marc:Good.

01:09:23Marc:I guess we're not going to change.

01:09:30Marc:There you go.

01:09:32Marc:His crankiness does not seem as dug deep.

01:09:37Marc:It doesn't seem as deep as it probably once was.

01:09:39Marc:Sounds like it's kind of like he just holds on to it.

01:09:43Marc:The new record, Strictly a One-Eyed Jack, comes out tomorrow.

01:09:47Marc:Here's a little guitar.

01:09:48Marc:I'm having a good time playing full-on humbuckers on this Les Paul Custom straight through my little Fender Champ.

01:09:55Marc:Cranked all the way.

01:09:57Marc:Cranked.

01:09:58Marc:Cranked.

01:10:00Marc:I got COVID.

01:10:01Marc:It's not cranked though.

01:10:03Marc:It's being beat up inside me by the booster.

01:10:07Marc:The booster is kicking its butt.

01:10:10Marc:Guitar time.

01:10:13Guitar time.

01:11:13guitar solo

01:11:50guitar solo

01:12:18Guest:Boomer lives.

01:12:25Guest:Monkey in La Fonda.

01:12:27Guest:Cat angels everywhere.