Episode 1296 - Drew Michael
Marc:Lock the gates!
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuck nicks?
Marc:What the fuck stirs?
Marc:How's it going?
Marc:Are you okay?
Marc:Is everything all right?
Marc:Did you get over it?
Marc:Did you get it checked?
Marc:Are you feeling better?
Marc:Are you getting out much?
Marc:How terrified are you?
Marc:Are you in the midst of an existential tailspin?
Marc:Where are we at?
Marc:What's going on?
Marc:Put the ice cream down.
Marc:Put it down.
Marc:It's 10 a.m.
Marc:Enough with the cookies.
Marc:It's seven in the morning.
Marc:That's not breakfast.
Marc:So today on the show, this guy, Drew Michael, he's a comedian, a writer.
Marc:He was a staff writer on Saturday Night Live for a couple of seasons.
Marc:Back in 2018, he did an experimental self-titled comedy special where he had no audience.
Marc:His new special is called Red, Blue, Green.
Marc:Look, I didn't know this guy.
Marc:And my old manager represents him.
Marc:And my old manager said, do you know this guy?
Marc:And I'm like, I don't know this guy.
Marc:And he said, he's got this special red, blue, green.
Marc:And I said, all right, well, I'll check them out.
Marc:But that's just the way this goes sometimes.
Marc:I don't know all the new comics, the young guns.
Marc:But I watched this guy, and his groove was familiar because there's only a few guys that do that at any one time.
Marc:I used to be one of the guys that did that.
Marc:Maybe I still am.
Marc:There's a type of comedy, a type of tone that...
Marc:That I think I was a little more aggressive about when I was younger.
Marc:The I can see what you can't see tone.
Marc:I watch this guy and, you know, I saw something familiar, something I related to.
Marc:And I thought, OK, I'll talk to this guy.
Marc:So he's here today.
Marc:And we had some issues.
Marc:And I'll get into that in a second.
Marc:So I talked to you about Buster.
Marc:Yeah, Buster's still on.
Marc:He's good.
Marc:Bounced back.
Marc:Thank God.
Marc:I got to quit leaning on the cats.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:I got to just give him a rest.
Marc:Hyper-focused.
Marc:There's a lot going on, though.
Marc:It was very awful that Saget passed away.
Marc:And as most of you know, I posted just all the talks we had.
Marc:We had three, and he was so funny and so nice and so... He's a great guy.
Marc:He's very sad.
Marc:And I'm going to go to the funeral.
Marc:And I generally don't go to funerals.
Marc:I don't know why I don't.
Marc:I mean, funerals are definitely different than weddings.
Marc:You know, they only happen once and it's heavy.
Marc:But I mean, I didn't go to Patrice's.
Marc:I didn't go to Geraldo's.
Marc:I really haven't been to a funeral in a while.
Marc:Because I'm either not around or I'm on the road.
Marc:But I'm going to Sagat's because I'm in town.
Marc:It's not far.
Marc:And I have a suit.
Marc:I have a black suit.
Marc:As an adult in show business, you have a black suit.
Marc:That's my choice.
Marc:I don't have a tux.
Marc:I have a black suit.
Marc:So that's either apparently for award shows where I don't win anything.
Marc:And now for funerals.
Marc:That's why I have the black suit.
Marc:You can go to a lot of award shows in your black suit and never win anything.
Marc:and you can go to funerals in your black suit and at least know that that's what you're going to get.
Marc:That's definite.
Marc:The award, who knows?
Marc:Death is coming, baby.
Marc:But I don't know his family at all.
Marc:But I know his friends.
Marc:And we have friends in common.
Marc:And I'm going just to, you know, as a show of respect and love for the guy.
Marc:And his first funeral I've gone to in a while.
Marc:And I don't know.
Marc:I guess I have an aversion.
Marc:Who doesn't?
Marc:But I got to grow the fuck up.
Marc:It's time.
Marc:You know, go show up for the other people.
Marc:Very sad that when Lynn died, I don't know.
Marc:I guess there was a memorial up in Seattle with her friends during COVID, but there was nothing here.
Marc:I was not involved in anything as a memorial or a funeral or anything like that for Lynn.
Marc:And I regret that.
Marc:I think that you do get closure.
Marc:There is something about processing the passing of somebody and processing grief in general.
Marc:That happens when you go to a funeral, when you go, when you sit Shiva, when you do, you go through the process of sort of collective grieving.
Marc:But, you know, I got a black suit.
Marc:I'm going to wear it.
Marc:So this guy, Drew Michael, this comedian.
Marc:So what happened?
Marc:I'll tell you what happened.
Marc:So as I said earlier, my old manager, Dave, suggests this guy to me.
Marc:He says, have you checked him out?
Marc:I'm like, no.
Marc:He says, you should check him out.
Marc:I think you'll like it.
Marc:And I want to see if you'd be interested in having him on.
Marc:So I'll check it out.
Marc:And this guy did something like he's different, obviously, than me.
Marc:And there's a type of comedy that that is the practitioners of which are far and few.
Marc:There's only a few.
Marc:And I know where it starts.
Marc:I know where it comes from.
Marc:You know, I know the sources.
Marc:You know, there's there's Hicks, there's Stanhope.
Marc:There's whatever I was doing when I was younger, maybe a couple of other people.
Marc:But I just know where the guy was coming from.
Marc:I could tell by the style and how he was trying to prove what he was trying to prove.
Marc:And the sort of lesson teaching of the tone.
Marc:And I watched it.
Marc:And there's a couple of great bits in there.
Marc:And there's the ending's interesting.
Marc:But I just felt there's some stuff in it that was familiar to me.
Marc:And I got, you know, I got a little squirrely about it.
Marc:And so I did some Googling and I found some stuff that made me uncomfortable.
Marc:And I told Dave and then he told this guy, Drew, and Drew was like, I'll talk to him about it.
Marc:So, you know, there is some.
Marc:Some stuff.
Marc:There is some discussion of either parallel thinking or not knowing something has been retread.
Marc:Yeah, I stopped short of calling Stan Hope to say, like, wait, do you know this guy?
Marc:Have you watched this?
Marc:Am I wrong?
Marc:Is there something?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But but it's it doesn't matter, really.
Marc:You know, I was diplomatic about it and the special ends well.
Marc:And as I said, there's some good bits in it.
Marc:But it just I don't know if it was because it sounded familiar to me because of what I used to do or what I do do or, you know, whether or not, you know, it's just he's the new guy doing it.
Marc:Who knows?
Marc:But we get into it a bit.
Marc:And he's a very smart guy.
Marc:The special is called Drew Michael, red, blue, green.
Marc:It's now streaming on HBO Max.
Marc:And this is me talking to Drew.
Marc:Well, that was the thing about people coming to the house was that it was disarming, you know, because it wasn't... When I started this thing, people weren't used to doing that, right?
Marc:So they'd come and they'd have to reckon with the fact that, you know, not only was it like some studio, but it was my life.
Guest:Yeah, I was saying, like, you're cooking a soup or something.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:So, like, it brings people to a different place, you know, right away.
Marc:It's a little...
Marc:Gets them off center.
Marc:It wasn't on purpose.
Guest:Just like pulling up into somebody's home.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a, I don't want to say intimidating experience, but there's something to it.
Guest:It's definitely uneven.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's not show business.
Marc:And it's like you don't know really what you're getting into.
Marc:Like if you go to a TV studio, like you did Kimmel the other night.
Marc:You kind of know.
Marc:You're going to go to the dressing room.
Marc:There's going to be some snacks.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Someone's going to talk to you about the thing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But when you're just driving to a guy's house, it's sort of like, I don't know what's going to... Well, I didn't even know that you... There's no one else here.
Guest:No.
Guest:There's no one running... No.
Guest:No one's here.
Guest:No one's running the mics.
Guest:No one's running the soundboard.
Marc:It's just me.
Marc:It becomes an issue when people bring people.
Marc:That was my whole big idea was like I'd get this separate building and people could use the bathroom out here.
Marc:And if they brought people, they could sit in that other room.
Marc:But I don't like it.
Marc:I make them sit outside.
Guest:Yeah, I kind of knew to come solo.
Guest:I was like, I don't think this is like a bring people.
Guest:This isn't a plus one affair.
Guest:You're going to bring Becky.
Guest:Yeah, no.
Guest:My brother wanted to go.
Guest:My brother came to Kimmel with me and I was like, I think this is just going to be me.
Guest:Does he live out here?
Guest:He does.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What's he do out here?
Guest:He works in sales.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:He's just out here?
Guest:He's just out here.
Guest:He and his girlfriend moved out here.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:They were from Chicago.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They wanted to get out of the weather.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was either New York or LA.
Guest:They decided to come here.
Marc:Well, New York wouldn't get you too far out of the weather.
Guest:Yeah, no.
Guest:I mean, whatever.
Guest:It's all over.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:Well, that's the interesting thing.
Marc:Like, it is.
Marc:I agree with you.
Marc:People are garbage and the earth is dying.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, yeah, it's just like, you know, it's, yeah, every turn, it's just like you forget about it for a second.
Guest:Like you can have like those moments of solace with yourself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then, you know, even just at the airport.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Everyone's in a mask, which I'm for.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Like on a germ level, on a people or gross level, like cover your face.
Guest:But it's a harbinger.
Guest:It's an omen.
Guest:It doesn't look good.
Guest:It's not an omen.
Guest:It's here.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's an omen for a second from now.
Marc:It's not a sign that this is how it's going to be.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it was weird.
Marc:I watch you and then I'm like, I know this.
Marc:Because you do what I do, kind of.
Marc:Not in a bad way.
Marc:There's only a couple of guys that talk about themselves that thoroughly and think about the world that sort of engaged and angrily and cynically.
Marc:I just related to where you were coming from.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Because I can see how you built yourself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Comedically.
Guest:I'm sure you can see that.
Guest:The way I would put it is like, if we were videos at Blockbuster, we'd be on the same wall.
Marc:Yeah, the one that no one rents.
Marc:The weird small cult wall of aggravated Jew comics.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:Jeff's pics.
Guest:Yeah, Jeff the angry guy.
Guest:The brooding guy.
Guest:Do you feel yourself getting territorial when someone comes along and either echoes some of the same themes or same impetus for what you're doing?
Guest:Because obviously you've been around longer than I have.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I can relate to that.
Guest:I mean, I'm not, you know, I haven't been around as long, but I've been around long enough for another generation to exist underneath me, quote unquote, in a chronological sense.
Guest:And so I think I can relate to the feeling of feeling like...
Guest:Threatened?
Guest:You know, if someone's encroaching terror, you're a little threatened.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Not so much because- If anyone's better or worse, it's just- Well, the thing is, is that there's only like a handful of people that do what we do at any given time.
Marc:You know, there's not a lot of people doing, you know, relatively progressive, cynical, cultural commentaries.
Marc:It just isn't.
Marc:And there aren't that many people whose heroes might be Hicks or Stanhope or whoever, Louie, whoever moves you in that direction towards sort of an angry revelation type of comedy that isn't, at this point, there seems to be a lot of that going on in a kind of hackneyed sense in the anti-woke crowd.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But that's different.
Marc:They're taking it a different direction, and it's not really humanistic, even in a sort of a Hicksian, misanthropic way.
Guest:They seem to be taking some of the worst parts of the people we're talking about without the weighted humanity, without the levity, without the thing that makes it what it is.
Guest:It's like...
Guest:And those types of comics you're talking about, you know, the ones that inspired, you know, people like me and also the other kinds of people you're talking about.
Guest:I think, you know, what they generated a kind of backlash that has now, it's kind of been like reverse engineered, like where people are looking at
Guest:the linchpin of those comics is like they generated this kind of uproar.
Guest:And so people, I feel like are seeking the uproar as a way to essentially validate themselves as that type of comic.
Marc:Well, that's interesting.
Marc:But like ultimately, historically, what I think is that, you know, those guys are, you know, and, you know, Doug is still alive.
Marc:And I think he's really the only true proprietor of that envelope pushing business.
Marc:But Hicks is a comic phenomenon.
Marc:He's a myth among us.
Marc:He generated very little uproar.
Marc:He had a hard time making a buck in this country.
Guest:Yeah, getting cut from Letterman and the religious right backlash.
Marc:Yeah, but that was still very, very small, relatively speaking.
Marc:Sure, sure.
Marc:But I think what you're saying is probably true in that the drive shaft of, you know, fuck you-ness has been co-opted and misdirected.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:I mean, even on the small scale, I mean, it doesn't matter when you're watching a Hicks clip on YouTube and you see the crowd turning against him and you see him saying, you know, Hitler had the right idea.
Guest:He was just an underachiever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You see that kind of acrimony existing between the audience and the fact that he was overlooked makes people say, okay, so I'm also neglected by the mainstream.
Marc:I must be doing amazing.
Guest:Yeah, it's a badge of honor.
Guest:It's a badge of honor.
Marc:It's a marketing tool.
Marc:Right, but now, and we're getting into the weeds, I just feel that anti-woke anger is the new hack and a lot of unfunny people can cop the disposition and then blame their lack of ability to get work on the fact that they're just too...
Marc:But it's all it's all promotional.
Marc:It's all.
Marc:I get that.
Marc:I get that.
Marc:But it's it's it's only going to work with a small bunch of people.
Marc:Yeah, it's promotional.
Marc:But I mean, there's a bunch of secondary anti woke dudes that are not going to get work unless they're touring with the primary anti woke dudes.
Marc:So you're saying it's a grift.
Guest:Well, I'm saying that it serves a purpose and it seems to be fueled by almost nihilism.
Guest:Like there is no belief at stake here.
Marc:There's no principle.
Marc:I think that that nihilism is being exploited by...
Marc:somewhat fascistic forces to do its bidding.
Marc:And I mean, that's the problem is when you see guys you've known for 20 years lock into this mindset around language that is just operating to sort of fuel the fire of wrong-minded bullshit on a tribal level.
Marc:And what they're calling their fans is really just this army of fucking meatheads.
Marc:Right.
Marc:that aren't really comedy people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, it's like, you know, if, if people are, you know, a ticket is a ticket in, in, in some people's minds where it's like, I'm not saying that, but like to me, and this is, yeah, maybe this is the weeds.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:But like the, after Trump, it's kind of just like, okay, so having a lot of people support you or follow you is meaningless.
Marc:Does it mean that you're saying anything good or right or correct?
Marc:No, it just means you can get through to them and they'll give you money and you satisfy some broken part of their fucked upness and elevate it.
Guest:Yeah, you're speaking to them on an emotional level without it being emotionally complex.
Marc:You validate them.
Marc:Yeah, you're activating a part of them.
Marc:But the thing that is concerning is that...
Marc:you know, I, I've been doing this bit on stage about that, about like, you know, I'm not one of these comics that you'll ever hear say like, right fellas.
Marc:Cause I don't even know what you guys do.
Marc:I'm not you guys who the fuck, you know, here's right.
Marc:Fellas and goes, that's me.
Marc:You know, you're doing something wrong.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So like,
Marc:Because me, I don't identify with hardly anybody.
Marc:I can get things in common with some people, but I've sort of like fought to have my own self.
Marc:And that is what you're supposed to do, right?
Marc:To actually be a free thinker.
Marc:So if we got into this racket,
Marc:You know, to to sort of get our thoughts, which I think is what you do.
Marc:You do that.
Marc:And that's why I did.
Marc:I didn't get into this because I felt like I was an entertainer.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I got into this because I thought it was a a reasonable place for me to find myself and to figure out what the fuck my truth is and how to you know and how to be seen.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Stand up was a language that I kind of just implicitly understood.
Guest:You know, I watched stand up and I was like, I think like this, you know, like this is kind of how my brain works.
Guest:I didn't know this was anything.
Guest:I thought this was just like weird, isolating rumination.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I didn't think that this was that this had an outlet.
Guest:And so there was something super liberating about it.
Guest:seeing people that spoke to me in that sense and saying, okay, this is a place where I can, like you're saying, iron out some of my own- You can choose your own territory.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:And if I started to feel like I was being embraced by a clan- A group.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It always feels a little uncomfortable.
Marc:Well, yeah, because that's something different, and you attract what you are.
Marc:So I imagine just from watching your stand-up.
Marc:And look, I identify with where you're coming from in terms of having selfish parents, philandering father, that kind of stuff.
Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I had that, but I didn't have the hearing thing, but we can get into that.
Marc:But my point was that there's some sort of tribalization going on, and that right now there seems to be a fine line between mainstream comedy shows and rallies.
Marc:What I always got into it for was to sort of have a small audience, work the shit out, and have a revelation each show for myself and for other people and to get somewhere.
Guest:Yeah, or even in between the shows where you do the bit, you do the set, and then you're thinking.
Guest:Sometimes I can think most clearly about the act or about the bit, about the material when I've just done a version of it because it's fresh in my mind.
Guest:I'm able to replay it in my head almost like sitting in the back of the room for my own show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so you're kind of fresh and the adrenaline's kicking and you're kind of walking around after the set thinking about it.
Guest:Yeah, what sticks?
Guest:And a lot of times, yeah, the clarity comes in there where, you know, there's something that you add, there's something that changes or shifts.
Guest:But like you say, when you're talking about personal things, even if it's not literally personal, it's not literally about your life, you know, these things are close to you.
Guest:Those revelations that you have comedically can also be...
Guest:a personal revelation.
Guest:This is what I think, or this is how I feel about this.
Marc:Sure, you don't know how you think until you say it, and then you don't know where it's going to go until it goes.
Marc:But I just know that from what you're doing up there, you're not looking for mainstream success, and sadly, I'm further down the line than you.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:With some of the things you're wrestling with, and not everybody's like us.
Marc:So so that's going to be the weird kind of, you know, crossroads is sort of like you have to accept the fact that people are laughing because they're like, what the fuck is this?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And then.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then you're going to have to accept the fact that, you know, how different we are.
Marc:And then you start to accept the fact that, like, I'm sharing these emotional things.
Marc:handicaps in an effort to you know figure out who I am but also in an effort to be seen by like-minded people and I continue to do that but like there's nothing simple about what you're doing right or what I'm doing and you've you and you've decided that
Guest:Something that I've been wrestling with recently is I think I used to be much more gung-ho about the idea that I was working it out both personally and professionally in the same forum.
Guest:And something that I've come to, I'm 36, so that's not old, but it is the first time I've ever felt not young.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm not the young guy.
Guest:There's other people around.
Guest:I don't know who the fuck you guys are, what you do.
Guest:I go to the Lower East Side of New York, especially after the pandemic, because I'm two years older, but the Lower East Side is still 22.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they all got money.
Guest:Yeah, I don't know what they, I have literally no idea what these people are operating on.
Guest:Right, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So there is like, that is the first time I've ever experienced that, where there's a legitimate generation that isn't high school kids.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's like, I don't know what the fuck's going on.
Marc:I get what you're saying.
Marc:Like, oh look, there's, yeah, I'm a real grown up.
Marc:Yeah, they're like doing stuff.
Marc:There's fresh grown ups.
Guest:They're in my way, but they don't know that.
Guest:Anyway, so at this age, I've started to obviously reflect on that and question that, and I start to look at the people, and I talk about this in the special.
Guest:I talk about the people that I looked up to, and I see comedy is a pretty small world.
Guest:You either get to know them on some level, or you're around them, or you still have access to their offstage happenings, whatever, and some of it's national news.
Guest:I look at where the people have ended up life-wise, and I'm like, okay, so super inspiring on stage, but maybe not so inspiring off stage, and I question how connected those two things are.
Guest:For yourself?
Guest:Or generally, how much are we locking ourselves into a modality that prevents a certain type of actual growth because we can always, if we need to, mine it and articulate it beautifully and all that stuff for something that can be lauded and something can be applauded.
Marc:But not necessarily, like it's a risk.
Marc:You know, with somebody like you or me that like you don't know.
Marc:I mean, like you seem to be doing OK right now.
Marc:We'll see how it all lands.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But depending on who you are, how you handle it, it will become a stick or it won't if you don't let it.
Marc:And it seems that you're compelled to go beyond that.
Marc:Like I watched a special.
Marc:And I have very specific opinions of it because you and I are coming from the same wheelhouse in a way.
Marc:I paid a different type of attention to it because I could sense.
Marc:And to answer your question, I don't find it threatening.
Marc:But to finish the thought from earlier, I know there's only a few of us that do this.
Marc:And so when I see somebody doing it, I'm like, there's a part of me that's sort of like, what the fuck is this?
Marc:But then I realized it's not the easy path and there's not that many people that do it.
Marc:So, you know, just hear them out.
Marc:But it is funny, the comparisons.
Marc:Because I know when I'm paying homage to certain things that I've taken in as I've gotten through this life.
Marc:I know in the last special that I did, End Times Fun, that my giant closer where Mike Pence blows Jesus, that really isn't my particular style right now.
Marc:But it is a tip of the hat to Hicks.
Marc:I know that.
Marc:structurally and and i do come from that and i did do that at some point but i'm highly aware of it like i know when i'm watching you that you know when you when you talk about fallon the way you do that you know i watched you know we all talked about leno hicks did a fairly extensive bit on leno that was even more brutal than yours but the same criticism
Marc:Of the same job by a different guy.
Marc:Similar criticism.
Guest:I mean, but it's definitely, that's a conscious homage.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:For sure.
Guest:Where it was something I riffed, you know, I think I was in DC and it was just kind of like a fun, like I never do voices or impressions of any kind.
Marc:It was kind of just fun.
Marc:When you do it once, right?
Marc:And you're like, you can kind of do it.
Marc:But like, if you do it on an improv, you really lock in.
Marc:But then sometimes with me and voices anyway, it's like when I try to lock in, it's a little trickier.
Marc:Like when I'm like, God,
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, it's not.
Guest:I'm not doing a bang like a money impression.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:And so it was it was fun.
Guest:It was silly.
Guest:I mean, like, you know, I was I was essentially calling him a sycophant.
Guest:Hicks's whole thing was the artistic roll call bit where he's saying like, you know, he's he's selling Doritos, doesn't need the money.
Marc:The weird thing is, is like that is that if you can criticize that, but that's all of it.
Marc:So you're standing against this flood, this tsunami of mainstream entertainment saying, fuck you.
Marc:And no one really gives a fuck that you say that except three other fuck you people.
Marc:But ultimately, you're going to find yourself having to navigate that world.
Guest:Yeah, no, right.
Guest:I mean, even when I posted on Instagram that I was doing Kimmel, all the comments were like, well, what about Fallon or all this kind of stuff.
Guest:Yeah, well, you set yourself up there then.
Guest:Yeah, no, exactly.
Guest:So then there's a question of, okay, these are what I think.
Guest:This is my actual thought.
Guest:It's so easy to throw stones from the outside.
Guest:But then I'm also not trying to self-sabotage.
Guest:I don't want to deny myself.
Guest:Are you not?
Guest:I don't think so.
Guest:Or at least I'm wrestling that.
Marc:No, I see that.
Marc:Because what you do at the end of the special...
Marc:I'm not talking about cinematically because I don't want to spoil that for anybody, but because I think it seems that, you know, whether you intended to or not, because you directed this thing and we should get into some background with that stuff.
Marc:But the thing that like stuck with me, like the one joke that I was, you know, concerned about doesn't matter really.
Marc:But I ended up.
Marc:You know, Googling the punchline.
Marc:And then it took me to, you know, this, you know, took me to Zizek, which I imagine you've read him or seen him.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, I'm familiar with Zizek.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, the thing you're talking about, and we could talk about it if you want.
Guest:The Titanic bit?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, it's so weird to me.
Marc:Like, I thought, like, there's a couple bits in there.
Marc:I thought, like, did you rush this hour?
Marc:Like, were you pulling back from, like, because I know you did an hour recently, right?
Marc:Not too long ago.
Marc:2018.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, okay, so wow.
Guest:I took basically a year off.
Marc:Yeah, I just was like, all right, we're going to do a Titanic joke.
Marc:But yeah, it was only because I liked the joke, but it was something that sounded familiar, so I went on this little rabbit hole.
Guest:Yeah, I think the line you're talking about is the iceberg is a hero.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And the article that you sent, I just got it.
Guest:It was like, hey, Mark might want to talk about this.
Guest:And so I was looking.
Guest:I was like, oh, interesting.
Guest:Someone has the same take.
Guest:And then it took me a second to realize that maybe there was a, you know, I don't know if it was like a shady accusatory kind of thing.
Guest:It got me a little defensive because I was like, you know, I know you're not shy on that front.
Guest:And so I didn't want to enter into...
Marc:you know a trial well that's what i thought you know when he came in i'm like we don't really need to get into it and i i've had that experience where you know whatever you fill your head with you know it's always exciting when you know somebody who's a great thinker you know you have the same thought it's always exciting sure you know and uh and like there's a lot of things out there in the ether and that thing is not a tremendous like it's not that you know like i could see how somebody else it's not an impossible
Marc:thing.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:I mean, especially the initial, I mean, the specifics are mine, but like the underlying premise of like this relationship wouldn't have worked.
Guest:Doomed.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Like that's not, you don't need to know Hegel to get that.
Marc:You know, I don't need to know Hegel for anything.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's just one, yeah, I don't, I have never tried.
Marc:Yeah, I can't do him.
Marc:I've tried, but I can't.
Marc:Most of the heavy hitter philosophers are just too dense for me.
Marc:There's a whole language to it that I don't understand.
Guest:Right, I think you have to go to school for that instead of language and then have Noam Chomsky call you an idiot because he's like, it's made up.
Guest:Postmodern philosophy is made up.
Guest:He's like, they want to sound like scientists, but they're not.
Marc:Yeah, no, it's all a game.
Marc:It's like philosophy.
Marc:This is the left.
Marc:This is the left.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Philosophy, psychology, theology, metaphysics.
Marc:It's all sort of like an attempt at understanding.
Marc:Science and math are different.
Guest:No, but I think there's an interesting thing to say about that, especially when you're doing comedy from a position of sharing point of view and sharing perspective and insight and not just making an observation of what's in front of you, but actually doing some rumination and some thinking about what's going on.
Guest:There's going to be overlap.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And I put out four hours of material total.
Guest:That's good.
Guest:Through albums and specials.
Guest:I'm just saying...
Guest:On my second one, there was one line that I did that bothers me to this day because it has that kind of overlap with a Stanhope line.
Guest:And it's like, I don't need it.
Guest:I didn't see it and say it.
Guest:I said it and later was like, oh, that's similar.
Guest:Tried to change it, tried to manipulate it, couldn't do it, recorded it, and that's just what it is.
Guest:And no one called you on it.
Guest:No, I mean, people have.
Guest:I mean, you get a YouTube comment here or there, but I think I've come to terms with that.
Guest:I'm like, you know what?
Guest:It took me years to come to terms with something like that.
Guest:If you're putting out four hours of stuff and there's two lines we're talking about throughout the entirety of the whole thing that's similar to a person that you look up to or that you have ingested, okay, that to me scans still.
Marc:Yeah, you have to let it go.
Marc:But see, that's what I was talking about in terms of my reaction to you is that there's only a handful of dudes
Marc:That we know.
Marc:You're not going to compare yourself against Brian Regan.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right?
Marc:So like the dudes that you're going to be worried about, there's three of them.
Guest:Well, apparently one of them is a Slovenian philosopher.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Well, that's true.
Marc:How far comedy has come?
Marc:No, you should be flattered.
Marc:Like that I was on the verge of accusing you of stealing from Zizek.
Guest:I mean, it's just like, that just makes me laugh as a concept.
Guest:Yes!
Guest:It's like, how can you take something from someone who's not making jokes?
Marc:Well, you can.
Marc:Yeah, the perspective shirt, of course.
Marc:No, that was a premise.
Marc:It's a premise.
Marc:And what I'm willing to indulge is that, yeah, it's not that big of a stretch of a premise.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, I get it.
Guest:And I don't think I would... The irony of that, I mean, I had a tag to that bit about how Revolutionary Road is essentially the sequel of what would have come out of that relationship.
Guest:And I had seen that on a blog, and so I was like... Oh, really?
Guest:So you let it go.
Guest:Yeah, so I don't do it.
Guest:So that's just how I am.
Guest:I'm not looking to score on anything that...
Marc:I know.
Marc:I know.
Marc:And if you're a smart guy and you're trying to figure yourself out and you're trying to figure the world out and you're trying to build your point of view and you want to read smart people, you're going to fill your head with stuff.
Marc:And that's just the way it goes.
Marc:And a lot of that stuff influences the way you think.
Marc:I know that there are drive shafts that have even been very useful to me over time that weren't necessarily mine, but eventually you build your own and it evolves.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:I'm willing to concede all of that.
Guest:I don't think that that is any kind of detriment even.
Guest:I think it's just kind of the function of the modality.
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Guest:But you are from Chicago?
Guest:Suburbs, yeah.
Guest:Which suburb?
Guest:A suburb called Deerfield.
Guest:Deerfield?
Guest:You know it?
Guest:Is that the Jewish part?
Guest:There's a few Jewish parts.
Guest:Highland Park?
Guest:Highland Park is Jewish.
Guest:Forest, not so Jewish.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Buffalo Grove, pretty Jewish.
Guest:It was that area.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because I have some close friends or family friends there.
Marc:But you grew up, it was just you and your brother?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:A younger brother and then our two parents.
Guest:And they split when I was 12.
Guest:My brother was nine.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But they both live in the area.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:And they don't talk to each other.
Marc:Do you talk to both of them?
Guest:No, not currently.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Here's the thing.
Guest:Here's the thing.
Guest:I really want to go here, but I don't know how comfortable I am putting this on blast.
Marc:Well, how about if we just leave it around the stuff that you discuss publicly?
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But what did your father do when you were growing up?
Marc:He's an attorney.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And your mom does what?
Guest:She was an art teacher, but she's retired.
Guest:Was she ever an artist?
Guest:uh she paints yeah my mom was a painter too she paints she she got back into it she was uh married to a guy yeah nobody liked and um like literally nobody like not like he had no not just you no no certainly not me but like none of my mom's family like there was not a single fan yeah and so it was kind of like how old were you when they got married
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How old were you when they got married?
Guest:20.
Marc:I was 20.
Marc:So you're a grown person and you had to deal with it.
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was grown enough for him to scream at me.
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The second guy.
Guest:Not even the original guy.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:He, I don't mind.
Guest:I won't say his name, but I don't mind.
Guest:They're still together?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:They got divorced when I was, my parents are both twice divorced.
Guest:Like they were each other's first.
Guest:They keep trying, huh?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, yes.
Guest:And so,
Guest:So my point was that when my mom was married to this guy, it was kind of like this Stockholm kind of thing.
Guest:And all of her, the sign to me that it was bad, you know, other than the fact that he was this guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:was she she wasn't painting anymore and she wasn't doing anything for herself she wasn't doing anything creative and she's a very creative you know free-thinking person yeah um or free-flowing person i should say and uh i i i eventually was like hey you're you know this is this is not good you don't you don't do anything i got you this canvas to paint on two years ago for your birthday you haven't touched it it's in your fucking attic yeah like
Marc:That's sad.
Guest:This is coming from... She was so moved by the conversation that she essentially initiated the proceedings and they ended up getting divorced.
Marc:Oh, you woke her up.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:The irony is the first divorce, it's not your fault.
Guest:The second one...
Guest:Oh, it is.
Guest:If you make it a case.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This one.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I'm on team.
Guest:Do this.
Guest:I'm not trying to keep this together.
Guest:This is a different thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you talk about this hearing thing that seems to be the crux of the neglect.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, you know, it's funny how painfully obvious and also how long it took me to discover that it is.
Guest:Like, you know, it's always been something I've known about.
Guest:It's been conscious.
Marc:You were born with it?
Guest:I think three years old.
Guest:What happened?
Guest:I think they don't know.
Guest:Hearing ear infections and shit.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:Maybe, but it's like hair follicles.
Guest:The follicles are dead.
Guest:No one's ever given me a clear answer on it.
Guest:I've always been like, what happened?
Guest:It could be a million things.
Marc:Yeah, I have ear problems now, and they can't figure it out.
Marc:Like tinnitus or whatever?
Marc:I don't know, like pressure problems.
Marc:It feels like a station tube stuff.
Marc:In my left ear, I feel a rumble when I hear things.
Marc:It sounds like a broken speaker, but pressure's fine.
Marc:The drum is fine.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I'm not a doctor.
Marc:That's the only reason I had you over.
Guest:Well, I can leave.
Guest:I had an MRI yesterday.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, they'll probably tell you more than I can.
Guest:No, I want you to look.
Guest:Do you have one of those things?
Guest:My dad did.
Guest:The lens thing?
Marc:One of those things.
Guest:Yeah, the light, but it's like a little conic-shaped thing.
Marc:There's all kinds of attachments to those, to the lights.
Marc:The conic thing is just the one.
Guest:I've seen them all.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right, go ahead.
Guest:No, three years old.
Guest:Yeah, and I was prescribed hearing aids, I think, then or maybe when I was five.
Guest:And the way my parents tell the story is I just didn't want them.
Guest:And I've kind of always accepted that narrative as just what it was.
Guest:Like, oh yeah, it was stubborn.
Guest:As a four-year-old?
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:But it's kind of what you're talking about.
Guest:You don't internalize that kind of independence until you actually establish it later in life.
Guest:And then you kind of have to retroactively go back and apply that same self-identity that you come to in your 30s or 40s, whatever it is.
Guest:And then you have to essentially transcribe it to your past.
Guest:And it's a very jarring thing.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:I do think that one of the hardest things about coming to terms with yourself and with who you are and what you've gone through is that you have to acknowledge the fact that this kid that you were, it's not a different kid, it's you,
Guest:experienced it that way right because when you're going through it there's all sorts of you're cultivating all sorts of defenses to prevent yourself from acknowledging that this is happening yeah right whether it's anger or or dissociation or whatever it is and then if you if you are trying to you know reconnect with yourself you have to go back and look at yourself as that kid and say no
Guest:He was going through that.
Guest:It wasn't this other thing that he had imagined.
Guest:It was this.
Guest:It was neglect.
Guest:It was isolation.
Guest:It was pain.
Guest:It was it was agony.
Marc:It's horrible.
Marc:Like to really, you know, that the it's almost like this weird, almost narcissistic empathy experiment.
Marc:Where you know you I have to you know place myself into myself as a five-year-old or a six-year-old you know in these points of trauma and experience that feeling of Weird of horrible pain and lack of narcissism.
Marc:It's not narcissistic.
Guest:I mean self-involved maybe self-centered but even but there's like a Judgment attached to that and I'm not trying to be me all new agey about it, but it's like yeah like self-involved meaning like you
Guest:In a literal sense, yes.
Marc:Okay, well, how about it's an experiment in time travel.
Marc:It is.
Marc:Yes, through, okay, you don't have to label it self-centered or self-aware, but it is an attempt to excavate your heart from the younger part of yourself that felt it being broken.
Guest:Yeah, no, right.
Guest:I mean, and, you know, I don't think like connecting with yourself or exploring yourself is inherently, you know, a self-involved or selfish.
Marc:No, I don't mind it.
Marc:I spend it.
Marc:And I only meant narcissism in that, that you're literally looking at a reflection of yourself based on what you think you were going through at that time.
Marc:So I wasn't using it in a clinical sense.
Marc:I think I was using it just in this, like the exercise of it.
Marc:Like the narcissist.
Marc:Almost, you know, only that it's only a sad kid.
Yeah.
Marc:That's in the mirror.
Marc:Looking back in the pond or whatever it is.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, right.
Guest:But even that, it was very easy for me to categorize my childhood as sad, but it was a much more difficult phenomenon to feel that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:And to let myself know what that sadness feels like.
Guest:How'd you do it?
Guest:A lot of therapy.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was seeing a therapist regularly, and then we started going twice a week.
Guest:How old were you?
Marc:When you went to a therapist?
Guest:Oh, I mean, I started going when I was 13.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, but then it was kind of on and off.
Marc:After the divorce, right after the divorce?
Guest:Yeah, pretty much.
Guest:Like, you need therapy.
Guest:That's your problem.
Guest:Right.
Guest:They're like, you need therapy.
Guest:I was like, you need therapy.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But I would say only recently have I fully committed to it, like the last few years where I was going regularly and then it up to twice a week.
Guest:And then my therapist recommended doing it four times a week.
Guest:That's essentially psychoanalysis.
Guest:Old school.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it's interesting.
Guest:And something happened over COVID that was kind of a revelation.
Guest:because of the hearing thing, I can't do the whole sit on the couch while the therapist is behind you because if I can't see you, I mean, this is different.
Guest:I have headphones on right now, but if I can't see your mouth, it's very hard for me to hear what you're saying.
Guest:We experienced this earlier.
Guest:You were trying to tell me which way to go.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I couldn't hear what you were saying.
Guest:So she's behind me.
Guest:I can't hear what she's saying or I'm stressed out.
Marc:You don't have hearing aids now?
Marc:I do.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:I do, but it's not perfect.
Marc:Right, yeah.
Marc:They're in there deep?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:The new kind?
Guest:Have you done any research on this?
Marc:No.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, they're newish, and they came out in 2008, and I was a pretty early adopter.
Guest:I was by far the youngest person.
Guest:I would go to the audiologist.
Guest:It's me and people who can't hold their heads up.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Was it like a miracle?
Guest:I had played with a different kind before, so it was maybe more of a gradual slope up.
Guest:but yeah i mean i couldn't get by i couldn't do this i couldn't do anything without him i couldn't have lunch with friends it's not even like i could like i could do it it would just be so stressful and i would be working so hard but you never learned you know you never had to sign or do any of that no because i was i kind of straddled worlds like i faked it dude i like i i didn't wear hearing aids till i was in my early 20s like 2021
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you faked it for whose sake?
Marc:Your parents?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:That's the thing.
Guest:I just did it.
Guest:I didn't want to acknowledge whatever that meant.
Guest:And I was never forced or encouraged.
Guest:I mean, encouraged that they suggested it.
Guest:They were willing to do it, but it was really up to me, which I don't think it should have been.
Guest:But...
Guest:There was no programs.
Guest:I was never linked with any sort of social workers who specialized in this stuff or speech pathologists or anything like that.
Guest:I think part of the problem was, and this isn't even me patting myself on the back, I think I excelled in pretty much everything that I did just on a material level.
Guest:My grades were always A's and I played baseball and I was good at baseball.
Guest:And so I think if I was getting F's,
Guest:They'd be like, what the fuck is going on?
Guest:And then we have to diagnose something.
Marc:But you sort of like you double engaged, you know, to compensate probably in a way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, it's so funny to now think about what I was doing because at the time it was second nature.
Guest:I didn't think this was anything.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This is just what, you know, I would have to sit.
Marc:But you wanted to be at least normal.
Marc:You knew that.
Guest:I did.
Guest:I did want to be, yeah.
Guest:That is a very hard thing to say and think, but it's absolutely true.
Guest:It's hard in the sense that it's emotional.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I very badly did.
Guest:I didn't want to be different and I didn't want to be a burden.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Even saying like, you know, what?
Guest:Like asking people to repeat what they said.
Guest:I would feel like this, and maybe it was all in my mind, but there was just a resentment toward me for making them repeat what they just fucking said.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And so I didn't want to do that, and so I would fake it.
Guest:I would act as if I heard it.
Guest:I would...
Marc:So you were constantly projecting what you thought people were thinking about you?
Marc:Like, you know, like, I'm annoying if I say what?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And they would because I never talked about it until maybe I was 18.
Guest:Wow, that's a long time.
Guest:So people didn't know.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So like if I said what, they thought I was either stupid or not paying attention.
Guest:So they would get annoyed on those grounds.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But nobody would... My friends aren't true assholes.
Guest:If they knew, and certainly as we've gotten older, they look out for me in that way, which I'm appreciative of.
Guest:But yeah, that is a major source of all this shit.
Guest:Whatever the level of disconnect and the fighting with myself, and just even...
Guest:this kind of unfortunate irony of like craving solitude and also hating it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Cause like I, I, I wanted to get away from people because they stressed me out because I had to be working 10 times as hard to try to ascertain what was going on.
Guest:And so I just wanted to get the fuck away.
Guest:I felt relaxed when I was at home alone, watching TV, playing video games, looking at porn on the internet, whatever the fuck it was.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or even in my room, just talking to myself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I think I may have said this on stage before, but you never mishear yourself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Your inner monologue says something.
Guest:You're never like...
Marc:Yeah, the problem is when you have two going.
Guest:Oh, no, believe me.
Guest:Yeah, you can get a bunch of voices up there.
Guest:But I crave that kind of solitude just to give me some relief from the stress that came with being with people.
Guest:But then at the same time, solitude is incredibly hard for me because I also crave connection.
Marc:Well, it's a perfect recipe for stand-up.
Marc:Because you can hear yourself, you decide what's being said, people hear you, and you have complete control over that thing.
Guest:Right, which I think is why I struggle with the sort of unilateral nature of it, because I'm looking for connection here, and this is the closest I've come to it, but I think I realize that it isn't what I need it to be.
Marc:Sure, but I think that what happens and what'll happen as you get older is that you might get some more joy out of it if you figure out how to engage that part of your vulnerability.
Guest:Yeah, and that certainly is what I hope to do, but also offstage and find a way to supplement, not supplement, but get the connection
Guest:Right.
Guest:Have a life.
Guest:And then the standup can be more of an extracurricular exploration of this thing rather than like a need.
Marc:Right.
Guest:A need and also- You can share with people as opposed to try to get something from it.
Marc:And not limited to the range of your emotional perception at this time.
Marc:Like if you get out more and you build a life where your life becomes bigger or you let go of some things, then you might bring that on stage and it broadens your perspective.
Marc:A million percent.
Guest:A million percent.
Guest:I think that the posture of, you know, look at me versus I want to share this with you.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:It can be potentially a game changer.
Guest:And that's like, you know, something that I'm.
Guest:You're waiting for it.
Guest:I'm challenging myself to do it.
Guest:No, like that's, you know.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Because obviously, I don't think anyone wants to watch an artist, no matter what kind, musician, filmmaker, comic, just repeat themselves and impersonate themselves.
Guest:I think like if there's no growth happening.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, then what the fuck is the point?
Guest:I mean, I guess I have to acknowledge that like, I feel very lucky that I didn't, I wasn't stressing during that time in terms of money.
Marc:Well, yeah, but you were starting to say something you didn't finish about therapy and COVID.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:The happy accident of that was because I can't do the, you know, psychoanalysis, that kind of classic couch therapist behind the couch.
Guest:The purpose of that is so you can kind of free associate stream of consciousness.
Guest:You're not burdened by the visual stimulation of the therapist reactions.
Guest:You're looking into the ether, closing your eyes, whatever you're doing.
Guest:I can't do that.
Guest:But over the phone...
Guest:throw on headphones, all of a sudden I can.
Guest:And so it was this weird thing where I started doing therapy, no Zoom.
Guest:It was just over the phone.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Put on the headphones, light on on my own couch.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Closed my eyes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was like, oh, this is a completely different thing than talking to someone who's in a chair.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I felt like so liberated by it.
Guest:And then the repetition is four times a week.
Guest:So you're doing it every Monday through Thursday.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Basically every day.
Guest:So, like, you, like, do it and you're like, oh, Jesus.
Guest:And you don't have any time to recover.
Guest:It's like a back-to-back.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The NBA or whatever.
Guest:It's like, all right, the next morning you wake up, you got to fucking do that again.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so you're, like, already reeling from the thing before.
Guest:And that's the purpose is it keeps you open and, you know, you're not able to zip it back up and then have to undo it for 45 minutes once a week and zip it back up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it's exhausting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like it's truly, it's truly exhausting.
Guest:And so I, but I found through that, I was able to tap into some things that, that felt new.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:That's good.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And so, okay.
Marc:So you do well in school and then you go to college?
Guest:I went to University of Illinois for a couple of years.
Guest:I was an engineering major.
Marc:Really?
Guest:I was a good like math and science.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's funny.
Guest:I went back home years ago and I was digging through old stuff and
Guest:And I was deciding, should I stay in school?
Guest:I kind of like comedy.
Guest:Should I write?
Guest:Blah, blah, blah.
Guest:And I was looking for some kind of sign.
Guest:And I found some old certificate in my drawer when I was a kid.
Guest:And I found this certificate, some test I took in high school, the standardized, not the SAT, but something like that, some assessment thing.
Guest:And it was like, you excelled in math, science, and writing.
Guest:I'm like, well, this is not fucking helpful.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:Well, one of them was.
Guest:Well, it was just like, am I better at one?
Guest:Should I follow something?
Guest:It's like, well, you could do either of these if you want.
Guest:So you didn't finish?
Guest:No, I dropped out a couple of times.
Guest:I had a rough go in college.
Guest:I didn't know what the fuck I was doing.
Guest:I took all these AP classes in high school.
Guest:And so I was like a sophomore when I went to college academically.
Guest:And I didn't know how to be a person.
Guest:I couldn't hear anybody.
Guest:I was so lost.
Guest:And so I didn't go to class.
Guest:I played Madden, got high.
Guest:I discovered weed and that was kind of it.
Guest:But then slowly I built myself up, did better in school.
Guest:By my first semester junior year, I got all A's and then I dropped out.
Guest:yeah and i went back dropped out again then i moved back home i was taking classes at the deerfield uh yeah i was staying i was working at the cheesecake factory doing open mics and i was doing uh i was i was in school up there at university of illinois chicago yeah and then it was too much i was like these three things i can't do i can't work cheesecake i can't do cheesecake comedy and in class yeah the three c's and yeah
Guest:So I was like, I had to pick two.
Guest:And so I was like, well, I can't not work.
Guest:So I dropped out of school.
Guest:That was the last time.
Guest:And then just started doing open mics and moved to the city.
Guest:And then I was kind of, then I started wearing hearing aids.
Guest:And that was like kind of when this part of my life started.
Guest:And so when was that?
Guest:2008.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Now, who do you see as your generation of guys?
Marc:Because I've never seen you before.
Marc:I don't know why.
Guest:But you ended up in New York.
Guest:No, we've seen each other.
Guest:I did a guest spot for you, I want to say 10 years ago, at Bloomington, Indiana.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I like that room.
Guest:Yeah, it's a good room.
Guest:Jared wanted you to see me.
Guest:And I think I remember what he said you said.
Guest:I think you watched me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then you went back into the green room.
Guest:You're like, somebody's listening.
Guest:Or something like that.
Guest:And then I think I saw you in Chicago.
Guest:You saw me at the main stage.
Guest:Those were always pretty fun shows.
Guest:Main stage, yeah.
Guest:Somebody asked you a question that I thought was awesome.
Guest:This woman shouted out.
Guest:She's like, when are you going to enjoy your success?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's a hard heckle.
Guest:That's hard.
Guest:There's no quip for that.
Marc:There's no like- I like that you remember the heckle, but not my response.
Guest:I think you kind of just, I think you kind of just like, yeah, I'm trying, you know, I am.
Guest:Yeah, I don't think, but I'm saying, I don't think you had a haymaker for that.
Guest:No, of course not.
Marc:I don't have a haymaker for anything.
Guest:You got them in there.
Guest:They're in there.
Marc:No, yeah, I guess so.
Marc:But it usually, it depends on the moment.
Marc:Like I can't think of like, I don't have like a list of things that I know or use as retorts.
Guest:I hate crowd work so much.
Guest:Do you?
Guest:I hate it.
Guest:I absolutely hate it.
Marc:I don't like it because if you really ... For someone like me, because I do like to communicate, and over the years, I've gotten pretty open.
Marc:There are moments where I'm like, sure, get me real.
Marc:Let's get off of this.
Marc:What do you want to do?
Marc:I'll engage.
Marc:Well, let's do it.
Marc:But the problem with it is that tone, conversational me, which is funny.
Marc:you know, going back into the act.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:Then, you know, you're kind of fighting with yourself.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, if you have real good crowd work, you can't go back.
Guest:Well, it's just a different thing.
Guest:It's a joke where everyone is living the premise.
Guest:And then for you to pull some other thing, like, so I was thinking about this, like, we were just living in the premise.
Guest:You were just adding the punchline.
Marc:Well, what I do when I do it is I go like, okay, can we go back to the act?
Marc:Can we just go back to the thing?
Guest:Yeah, can I just, can I put the needle back on the record?
Marc:Yeah, I have to,
Guest:prepared stuff yeah it's very good yeah it's just a different it's a different different vibe i don't mind it though i just feel like the things that can excite a crowd in crowd work yeah are often dumb yeah well it's just like doesn't take a lot yeah it's a specific thing and you're so excited that you're in the moment
Guest:Yeah, you know what you can say.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I often will just not say it.
Guest:And I'm like, this, I know what, you know, because I've done it when I was middling or whatever, like when I was coming up and you just got to get, you got to survive in a way.
Guest:Like, oh yeah, they would laugh at the dumbest fucking thing.
Guest:Oh yeah, yeah.
Guest:Because it happened here.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm not saying they're dumb for laughing.
Marc:They think they're witnessing something that's never going to happen again.
Guest:Or just, you know, it's exciting because they don't know.
Guest:They know that you don't know.
Marc:And then you watch crowd work comics.
Marc:Like there's a couple around just do the same, you know, at least 80% of the same.
Marc:Yeah, crowd work is fake.
Marc:Yeah, a lot of it.
Guest:A lot of it.
Guest:Like this, it's like...
Guest:We're already pretending this is off the cuff and we know it's not.
Guest:And you're doing an art form on top of that that is claiming to be like, no, really off the cuff, that's also fake.
Marc:I just like talking sometimes.
Marc:Because so many of my fans are used to so many different facets of me that I have the freedom to do it.
Marc:like you know if they really engage me with a question like you know like how are your cats or did you get that thing looked at on your head well i would imagine i mean it has to be the case that every single person coming to see you has listened to you talk more than they've listened to you maybe like yeah i get like there's all different places they come from now you know from like the globe some people like don't know anything about the podcast oh sure it's weird you know like it's like i never know when someone goes i really like your show i'm like
Marc:Which one?
Marc:What?
Marc:Yeah, right, right.
Marc:You can't be that guy.
Guest:No, but, well, you're the guy in the classic joke, the guy at the comic at the bar.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Early show or late show.
Marc:Yeah, well, how do you know that joke?
Marc:I mean, what's your version?
Guest:Oh, like, comic, you know, does shows on, you know, finishes Friday or Saturday, goes to the bar next door, and this girl's like, oh, you're so, you know, hitting on him, you're so funny.
Guest:Yeah, which show?
Marc:Which show, yeah, you see early or late show.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:That's it, yeah.
Guest:And that's like, that's, but that's, this is the slightly more successful version of that.
Guest:I like your show, the TV or the radio.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:The special.
Marc:We always want to take it away from them.
Marc:You know, it's sort of like, oh, that, yeah.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:It's like, oh, no, you shouldn't like that one, you idiot.
Marc:You got to listen to the other thing.
Guest:Yeah, this episode of this thing.
Marc:Yeah, I've become very gracious as years have gone by, you know.
Marc:Yeah, I feel like... Yeah, don't take their experience away from them.
Marc:I feel like you've done well.
Marc:Yeah, I've done all right.
Marc:I have.
Marc:Like, what else do you want?
Marc:I'm happy.
Guest:The garden?
Marc:Get out of here.
Marc:The garden?
Marc:Yeah, like, what do you... No, no, I can't do that.
Marc:You have to say, what do you want?
Marc:I have no idea what to do with that.
Marc:You know, I'm fine.
Marc:You know, I really am.
Marc:You know, the happiness element is...
Marc:Oh, you didn't really address.
Marc:I've addressed happiness.
Marc:You addressed love.
Marc:You go do a deeper source in the special.
Marc:What is love, really?
Marc:Yeah, I'm okay, man.
Marc:I'm okay.
Marc:There's a lot of things that seek resolution.
Marc:I don't know where I stand in moving forward with relationships.
Marc:But I have made conscious efforts now to do things that I've always wanted to do without fear.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's good.
Marc:And try to enjoy things and at least acknowledge what I do enjoy and allow it as opposed to just be compulsive about behavior.
Guest:Do you find that that compulsion influences the relationship outcomes as well?
Guest:The compulsion doesn't have to be a behavior.
Guest:It can be a mode of thought.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:It's really comfortable sometimes for me to attach myself to a fantasy.
Guest:or a type of dynamic that's exciting, but obviously has no legs and obviously is doomed.
Guest:It's obviously only going to end in nothing or hurt me or hurt them.
Guest:But there's something that I compulsively will follow about that because it just speaks to me so clearly.
Marc:Yeah, but you start to know better.
Guest:No, right.
Guest:I think I'm getting to that point, but as someone, again, you're- I just don't know how to-
Marc:Well, yeah, well, that kind of stuff.
Marc:Like, you know, how many times can you make that mistake?
Marc:Like, you know, because like as you get older, too, you know, more so than not, you're not it's you're not going to walk away from it.
Marc:You know, well, sometimes if you're lucky and the other person's compulsive, too, and they're kind of like, oh, what was that?
Marc:I don't know, but we're good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you can walk away kind of free.
Marc:But, you know, depending on someone else's expectation, you know, someone's going to get hurt and it's horrible.
Marc:Yeah, how many times can you heartbreak?
Marc:How many times can you hurt people?
Marc:How many times can you hurt yourself?
Guest:I don't want to do it.
Guest:I don't want to break up ever again.
Guest:Like, I don't want to do it.
Guest:Because it's never... I've never broken up with someone, and it's been like one of those, like, yeah, you know, we see each other around.
Guest:We just fell out of love.
Guest:For me, it's like, you cannot be anywhere I am.
Guest:Yeah, no.
Guest:And I don't want that.
Guest:And I'm not...
Guest:blaming anyone i'm just saying like i don't want to get involved in something that has that type of tenor where those are the stakes i know but like but we're not normal i'm not saying we're broken but emotionally when you talk about wiring you know with your heart is looking for what you come from then you're going to be in trouble you know well that's but that's the compulsion is to is to give into that or to say to maybe take a step back from that and go wait a minute okay i
Guest:I have this idea of dating in New York, for example, where my friends of mine that are single, and then I have the family friends, the people who are married, having their second kids.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's my world.
Guest:Showbiz, single, and regular people doing the whole thing.
Marc:Nice.
Marc:Good for you to have friends.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I do okay.
Guest:A little side note, the friends of mine that have kids, seeing them raise children has been instrumental in me realizing the deprivation I experienced as a child.
Guest:Because I'm like, oh, I've never seen this before.
Guest:I mean, there's different variations of it.
Guest:They're not all the same, but they're all very loving.
Guest:Their relationships are, for the most part, very good.
Guest:They belong together.
Guest:They care about each other.
Guest:They respect each other.
Guest:There's a lot of independence in the sense that they don't need anything from their children.
Guest:They're able to facilitate.
Guest:They're able to be there.
Marc:They're able to facilitate their children's coming into themselves without intruding or neglecting or feeling like they're fucking up somehow.
Guest:Yeah, or setting up a dynamic where the kid is meant to make the parent feel better about themselves as a parent.
Marc:Sure, the appendage, yeah.
Marc:You're just your parent's appendage.
Marc:The narcissistic parents just make you an arm.
Guest:Yeah, like they can't need you to make them feel good about themselves.
Guest:So I see that, and it's been pretty instrumental in me realizing things about myself.
Guest:The special is dedicated to, the very last card is dedicated to 10 different names, and those are all my...
Guest:friends' kids.
Guest:Those are all my friends and one of my cousins' kids.
Marc:Oh, that's nice.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I feel like they have truly shown me what it could have been or what it should be or so on and so forth.
Guest:So yeah, that was a slight side note.
Guest:But the single show busy art scene Friends in New York- Yeah.
Guest:there is this kind of thing where we're all like fucked up in a similar way, especially, you know, actors, comics, musicians, directors, performers, people that need to be showcased in some kind of way.
Guest:I do think it comes from, you know, like, or at least it goes hand in hand with this idea of like longing for someone to, to reach back or something like that, or chasing the thing that is unavailable, so on and so forth.
Guest:And so, um,
Guest:I had this image in my mind of dating in New York, which is like everyone is chasing after someone who's chasing after someone else, who's chasing after someone else.
Guest:And it just goes on like that, this kind of recursive loop of people reaching out for someone who doesn't give them the time of day.
Guest:And I was like, what if we all just turned around?
Guest:And there's this person who's reaching for you, who is available, who doesn't make it hard.
Guest:There's no fucking games.
Guest:There's no, oh, are they going to text back?
Guest:They just do it.
Guest:And they like you, but on merit, not just because you're anyone, but because they get to know you.
Guest:And it's like, that feels so fundamentally different from what I'm used to.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:But it's romantic, and I like it.
Marc:Where's the flaw?
Marc:There's no flaw in wanting that, but my experience has been you have to then be comfortable with that other thing not being satisfied and what that's gonna do.
Marc:What does that do?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, I do.
Guest:I do wonder.
Guest:I'm like, can we have this?
Guest:But then also let me just give me like three days out of the month.
Guest:Don't ask questions.
Guest:They're not going to be infidelity.
Marc:It's just going to be something.
Marc:Here's the thing.
Marc:You know, once you really wrap your brain around honest self-acceptance, you know, and get your needs in order, you can ask for whatever the fuck you want.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And a new world.
Marc:And maybe you can get it.
Marc:But like, you know, if you're constantly second guessing yourself or have that shitty voice in your head, you're going to make all these assumptions, you know, moral judgments or judgments about yourself in relation to them or what they're thinking that there's no way you can be like, well, look, I'm going to fuck someone else once a month.
Marc:What are you going to do?
Marc:You know, like after a certain age, if you've got no kids and no real responsibilities, you don't owe anybody anything.
Marc:What does it hurt to be that honest to see if you can do it?
Marc:Right.
Guest:But is there something alienating about that?
Marc:Of course.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, but wait, but the thing is, it may be alienating, but maybe not.
Marc:I mean, you know, like if you're really talking about like sustaining something with somebody that, you know, who the fuck knows?
Marc:I just know that I'm so fucking insecure on some level that I'm just going to do their thinking for them.
Marc:And I'm going to do their judging of me for them.
Marc:And I'm going to judge myself for them.
Marc:Half the conversations I'm in with them, I'm making up, you know, like, you know, I'll jump into the middle of something that I'm having in my head with them.
Marc:And they're like, what are you talking about?
Marc:Like, oh, yeah, right.
Marc:You know what you did?
Marc:You know, that's exactly what you were thinking.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So once you get that out of the way, you know, and really own yourself and say, look, this is the way I am.
Marc:Once you like really are, you can be honest with yourself and self accepting and you have nothing to lose by being honest with the people that you want to be involved with, then there's a certain freedom in that.
Marc:But it takes a lot to get there, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, but I also want to make sure that my honesty isn't just- Recognized?
Guest:Yeah, well, exactly.
Guest:It's not just me repurposing impulse as honesty.
Guest:What do you mean impulse?
Guest:Defensiveness?
Guest:No, but yeah, I want to fuck someone or something.
Guest:That's an impulse.
Guest:And so to be like, well, that's just me.
Guest:I got to do it.
Guest:Well, maybe that was a bad example.
Guest:Fine, or whatever it is.
Marc:Here's a good example.
Marc:I'm going to shut down.
Marc:Well, here's a good example.
Marc:I've had a rough go of it.
Marc:My girlfriend died a year and a half ago or whatever.
Marc:It was the beginning of something great and it didn't happen because she got sick and died.
Marc:And I never really had any very good relationships, you know, in my whole life.
Marc:Two marriages, they didn't work out.
Marc:And I was a monster in a lot of them for probably the same reasons you've been a monster.
Marc:Insecure, yelling, whatever, jealous, whatever.
Guest:I don't know if I've been a monster.
Guest:Oh, I've been a monster.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I'm sorry to project.
Marc:No, it's a close territory.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:But, you know, like now, like I know where I'm at and I've seen something horrible and I felt, you know, like I didn't ever want to break up with anybody again either.
Marc:And then somebody dies or whatever.
Marc:That's horrible.
Marc:It's horrible.
Marc:So, but like now in this situation I'm in now where it's sort of like, I don't know what I've got in me and I don't know if I can handle this or that, but like, you know, this is where I'm at.
Marc:You know, I am, you know, I'm heartbroken.
Marc:I'm very, you know, wary of,
Marc:of moving forward with something profoundly intimate, but I want to hang out.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But I don't want you to sweep over ever.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Is that okay with you?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It reminds me of a Jason Isbell line.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Heart like a rebuild part.
Guest:I don't know how much it's got left.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Yeah, but if I'm trying to honor myself outside of the, like, well, I'm going to fuck somebody, not the testing thing, but just sort of, this is what I can handle, and if you're okay with it, we can move forward.
Marc:If you're not, I can't do it.
Guest:Well, you could also need just time to heal.
Marc:Yeah, of course.
Guest:That's a pretty traumatic thing.
Marc:Oh, it's horrible.
Marc:But you still want to have company and do stuff.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:And on that level, it's like, well, stating what you're capable of is honesty.
Guest:It's like, this is what I have room for.
Guest:And obviously, just because one isn't ready for the thing, capital T, doesn't mean that they can't interact with people.
Marc:But I think that's a good place to start with what we're talking about, right?
Marc:Sure.
Guest:But there's a difference between capacity, emotional capacity at this time or whatever, and unpleasant instincts that you might have.
Guest:For example, if your instinct is to diminish them in an argument, that can't be honesty.
Right.
Marc:No, it's not.
Guest:That's what I meant by repurposing impulses, honesty.
Marc:But one thing I know about being annihilated emotionally and mentally with reality is that a lot of that acting out bullshit, the stuff that you do instinctively to avoid whatever, yourself, feelings, that stuff starts to tire out.
Guest:I agree.
Guest:And this kind of dovetails, in my opinion, to some of the stuff you're talking about in comedy.
Guest:I feel like a lot of impulse is being branded as honesty in comedy, where it's like... Sure.
Marc:Acting out.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And being petulant and being like, well, this is... I think there's a difference between...
Marc:like like honesty doesn't mean literally saying everything you think at every time that's not honesty to me because like that's just right because like someone once said to me at a meeting was genius because I told my like I said shared something about telling somebody something that I thought I was really working a good program because I was being so honest and this guy comes up to me goes don't don't use honesty as a weapon
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's what you said earlier.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Don't weaponize it.
Guest:But that's real, man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, it is.
Guest:It's like- It's preemptive.
Marc:I'm just being honest.
Marc:Yeah, man.
Marc:And it's preemptive.
Guest:That isn't honest.
Guest:And I think that's kind of what I start to talk about as well or start to think about, which is like this idea of honesty as saying what you think versus addressing how you feel.
Guest:Those are two different kinds of honesty.
Guest:And I think one is much harder and truer.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And the other one is actually stifling that.
Guest:Yeah, like if you said something to me that made me upset, it made me defensive, and I said something about you that was technically true, it's like, well, I'm just being honest, but what would be, I think, more honest is like, I'm feeling hurt by what you just said.
Guest:And maybe that's not as cool, but that is the honest statement.
Marc:But that's what's interesting about doing the kind of comedy that you do or that I do, is that so much of it is, you know, that's what's under the surface of it.
Marc:is that you're talking.
Marc:Like lately I've been having this experience where I know the tone I'm talking in and the things I'm saying.
Marc:Like I'm laughing, but it's so close to crying.
Marc:And I don't mind it, but I'm wondering like, well should I just be, is this okay?
Marc:Is this like, what does this mean?
Marc:Like so much of that posturing is really about would someone just love me?
Marc:Would somebody?
Marc:I defy you.
Guest:Well, the defying is the kind of, that's what's driving it away.
Guest:I know, but emotionally you know it's just a cry for help.
Guest:Well, so it's funny because I used to do shows and there would be people who'd come up after me or message me or whatever and say, I want to give you a hug.
Guest:I want to give you a hug.
Guest:And I was always like, they don't get it.
Guest:They don't get it.
Guest:No, they see it.
Guest:They get it.
Guest:They got it more than the people who were laughing and saying, oh, it's so funny.
Guest:And is this real?
Guest:Those people who are like, I want to hug you, they get it.
Guest:Because they're picking up the tenor that you're talking about.
Marc:Yeah, that's not great.
Marc:Um, I don't know.
Marc:I think I don't, I don't.
Marc:It makes me feel very vulnerable, not intentionally, whereas I wish I could just, you know, speak to that as opposed to exude that.
Guest:But that's the vulnerable thing is that you don't have control over it.
Guest:Is that, is that despite your efforts to control it, to dictate the terms, they're getting something that you can't control.
Guest:And that is vulnerability.
Marc:No, I know that.
Marc:But, but like, why not be in that?
Marc:I know.
Marc:I get the leaking.
Marc:I think you said that in the special.
Marc:But why not not leak?
Marc:Why not just be in it?
Marc:Why be the vessel?
Guest:Well, but then that's just trying to control the leak.
Guest:I guess.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:I'm not trying to get too abstract, but the leak is inherent in the vulnerability.
Guest:In order to be vulnerable, you have to be willing to be communicating something that you might not be aware you're communicating.
Marc:No, but yeah, but I mean, but you're not.
Marc:What you're communicating is this attempt at hiding your vulnerability.
Marc:Because if half the audience is laughing and then three people are like, you okay?
Guest:Oh, you're saying why not just forget the facade and yeah, I'm not okay.
Guest:Well, but that's kind of, I mean, I do kind of, you know.
Guest:Yeah, do that at the end, yeah.
Guest:Or at least point to what that would.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:B, and I think that it is tough because you are trying to put on a show.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You're not a lunatic.
Marc:But there's people that put on shows, dude.
Marc:There are people in our business who do it because they love the love.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And those kind of people who go up there and sing a song, do a little dance, or just embrace something beautiful and nonsensical, they're living in it.
Marc:And they're very entertaining.
Marc:And people leave going like, that was so fun.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah, but who knows what the mechanics of that are.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Marc:Sure.
Guest:I don't know what makes them tick.
Marc:No, I don't either.
Marc:They could get backstage and jerk off into a cup and throw it against the wall and drink a half gallon of booze.
Marc:I know, probably.
Guest:No, right.
Guest:I've known people like that.
Guest:Yeah, me too.
Guest:Where it's just like- You're a mess.
Guest:You liar.
Guest:Well, it's not they're a mess.
Guest:It's just like, oh, there's nowhere to put that anywhere else.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So who are your guys that you came up with?
Marc:Do I know them?
Marc:You're the one behind Pete Holmes and Hannibal and that crew come out?
Guest:Yeah, so Hannibal was there for like a year when I started.
Guest:So we overlapped for a little bit of time.
Guest:Then he moved to New York.
Guest:A lot of the people, Beth Stelling came up with me in Chicago.
Guest:She's out here, right?
Guest:She's out here.
Guest:Cameron Esposito was there.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And I'm trying to think of... Yeah.
Marc:Who, like, moved out.
Marc:But what rooms did you come up in?
Marc:Did you do mainstream rooms or most of those alt ones?
Guest:I helped start a room called Comedians You Should Know in Chicago, which still exists.
Guest:I mean, you know, I have...
Marc:Wasn't there a place called The Lodge or something?
Marc:Lincoln Lodge, yeah.
Guest:Lincoln Lodge.
Guest:I did that.
Guest:I would kind of do everything, but I was never anyone's person.
Marc:But never Zany's?
Guest:I did Zany's.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:So then what brings you to New York?
Marc:You just decide to go?
Guest:You hit a ceiling in Chicago.
Guest:I came up at a time where we were starting to get a little bit of industry, where Montreal would come there.
Guest:They had JFL Chicago.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:for a couple of years.
Guest:And so people are starting to pay attention.
Guest:And I think once the lake shore went under, which was April of 2010, the Laugh Factory bought the space, gutted it, changed everything, made it a Laugh Factory.
Guest:And that kind of brought with it a little bit of a commercial viability to Chicago in both good and bad ways.
Guest:But I went in there once.
Marc:I never worked there.
Marc:It seemed weird.
Guest:Structurally weird.
Guest:It's weird.
Guest:It's different than the one.
Guest:I don't work at the Laugh Factory.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Are you a store guy?
Marc:I'm pretty much all store when I'm here.
Guest:All store all the time.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:But in terms of like, I never felt like I had, in Chicago I did, I had some guys that we kind of came up with that we kind of came up together, but a lot of them are still there.
Guest:And so I never felt part of a crew or anything like that.
Marc:And did you write at SNL?
Marc:Yeah, for a year.
Marc:How was that?
Marc:Not good.
Guest:Does anyone ever say it was awesome?
Marc:Yeah, the ones that were treated well.
Guest:Or the ones that are still there.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:No one's there for one year.
Guest:It was like it was sick.
Marc:No, one year usually means it was not good.
Guest:Well, it's just, of course.
Guest:It's like, yeah.
Guest:I wrote for a weekend update.
Guest:It was the year of the election, the 2016 election.
Marc:You writing for Che and- Yeah.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I got maybe four jokes on the entire season.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:And you just sat there beating yourself up or- No, I kind of didn't.
Guest:You know, it was weird.
Guest:It's like, it wasn't like a lifelong dream of mine.
Guest:I didn't even apply.
Guest:I got asked to do it.
Marc:By who?
Guest:By Che.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:And so I didn't- She's a Chicago guy?
Marc:No.
Guest:No, Che's not.
Guest:Che's in New York.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Che grew up like Larissa.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Or New Jersey.
Marc:I forget exactly where.
Guest:But so it wasn't like there.
Guest:I didn't play any of the, you know, let me stay here game.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, everyone dressed up.
Guest:Not to sound like, but everyone dressed up on Saturday would wear a suit on show night.
Guest:I'm like, I'm not wearing a suit.
Guest:No one sees me.
Guest:I'm in the writer's room.
Guest:I'm in the office.
Guest:Who cares?
Guest:So I would wear what I'm wearing now.
Guest:I don't dress like a schlub, but I'm not.
Guest:So that kind of helped.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It was just stuff like that where I was just like, I'm not giddy to be here.
Marc:So stand-up's always been the thing then?
Guest:Yeah, stand-up has always been the thing.
Guest:And that's something that is on its own kind of uncommon.
Marc:So right now the push is you'd like to have a draw.
Guest:More so than now, just a freedom to do things kind of on my own.
Guest:I don't want to be reliant on anyone, but I don't have fantasies of fame or massive anything.
Marc:For me, I can sell some tickets now and people know me.
Marc:Not enough.
Marc:I can sell out the Vic and maybe do two shows.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:Yeah, that's exactly where I need to be.
Marc:And I don't like this tour I'm about to do.
Marc:I'm like, I don't want to do rooms over 800 people.
Guest:Yeah, it probably starts to feel almost disconnected.
Marc:No, it's just like you have to change your tone.
Marc:You have to change your timing.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I did an arena once.
Guest:I opened for Aziz, and it felt like I was...
Guest:It felt like it was completely disconnected from people.
Guest:You waited for like a wave of laughter to hit you from the back.
Marc:Well, it's something you sort of like, okay, I did that.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:And then you start to realize like, well, these guys can do it because it should make a fucking fortune.
Marc:Oh, sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's like it doesn't like I'm too hard on myself to to be able to be like, you know, like I'm just going to do this weird sort of stifled version of me for this type of.
Marc:Fortunately, that complaint is, you know, is going to fall on deaf ears.
Marc:No one's offering me an arena, but I don't.
Marc:But you know what I mean?
Guest:But you also like, I mean, I do think what you said something earlier, like the thing kind of chooses you.
Guest:And I think that's true about the path too.
Guest:It's like, if you did an arena, it would almost be weird.
Guest:Well, I did a couple of those oddball shows.
Guest:Right.
Guest:No, no, I was saying like, if it was like Mark Maron at the Madison Square Garden, it's like, what is happening in the world now?
Guest:Yeah, that Mark Maron's at the... Well, it's just like, is everyone this now?
Guest:Like, that's crazy.
Guest:Like, that's frightening.
Guest:If that many people... No, it's not there yet.
Guest:Everyone's just a comic now.
Guest:No, right, right.
Guest:That was my kind of like inside dystopian projection.
Guest:It was like every comedy show is going to be like a comic performing for people who are there the next night or whatever.
Marc:Well, that's sort of how it starts now.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, that's like that whole world of bringer shows was not around when I was younger.
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:So to answer your question, I mean like I, you know, I'm very project oriented.
Guest:Like I think in terms of projects.
Marc:Yeah, you seem to get things done.
Guest:Well, it's just like I have, you know, every hour I've put out, it's very much that structure.
Guest:Like I'm building this hour and I think it's gotten more and more cohesive as time has gone on.
Guest:But, you know, do the hour, find a way to film it that I think is interesting and record it, put it out, promote it as much as possible.
Guest:move on disappear like i don't i'm not like a personality comedy huh but do the comedy yeah yeah oh yeah work and go back to work and so like you know the next project i have an idea for something and so it's a matter of just like anything that can help me facilitate the kinds of things i want to do i don't need to be in a marvel movie i don't need to be sure you know like yeah i like to do a little bit of the acting if it how has that been
Marc:It's good, because it's something, it was a dream of mine to act.
Marc:It was.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, at some point, I studied a little bit of theater, but I mean, I wasn't always a comic.
Marc:But when I was in college, I did a little bit of it.
Marc:And I thought I could do it, so after I did my own show, I kind of learned how to, I failed my life.
Marc:Was that your first kind of?
Marc:Yeah, but I knew also from knowing other comics that had shows that the first couple seasons might be a little choppy, because you don't know how to be.
Marc:in that world.
Marc:Yeah, it could be you, but not you on cue in this way.
Marc:But sort of challenging myself to do things.
Marc:Acting's tedious and it's not as satisfying because you have a lot of waiting around.
Marc:I mean, I don't know, maybe a play is different.
Marc:But the last couple times I've done it, I challenged myself to see if I could bring something.
Marc:And yeah, it's interesting.
Guest:Yeah, it's another outlet for sure.
Guest:You do music too.
Marc:Yeah, I've been trying to do that, yeah.
Marc:I play, but it was really kind of a solitary thing, but now I take it out and do it in front of people.
Guest:Yeah, you take it on the road.
Marc:I just go to Argo.
Marc:Yeah, that's the road.
Marc:And I put a couple guys together.
Marc:Yeah, it's 25 minutes out.
Marc:I got to put the thing in the car and bring it over there.
Marc:Yeah, that's the road.
Marc:So what happened with the last special that made you want to direct your own special this time?
Guest:So the last special was directed by Gerard Carmichael.
Guest:And he and I were working pretty closely at the time.
Guest:And we shot it.
Guest:This is before COVID.
Guest:We shot it without an audience.
Marc:That sounds crazy to me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was a combination.
Guest:So that was Gerard's idea.
Guest:And I was excited by the radical nature of it.
Guest:My concern was that I wouldn't necessarily, I didn't know how it was going to marry itself to the content.
Guest:You know, like I was still thinking about how it would work as a piece.
Yeah.
Guest:And that kind of cohesion, those discussions never really happened.
Guest:So it just kind of happened.
Guest:And we shot it and it got a lot of attention in press and whatnot.
Guest:It became like a focal point of discussion.
Guest:I mean, obviously in our little world and it's very, people had very polarizing opinions about it.
Guest:And some people thought it was, you know,
Guest:a revelation.
Guest:Some people are like, this is the literally worst fucking thing I've ever seen in my life.
Guest:Fuck this guy.
Guest:And I don't mind people feeling that way about my stuff.
Guest:Someone's like, fuck this guy.
Guest:If I stand in it, I'm like, okay, I can live with that.
Guest:But this did not... That special did not feel like... You know, a comedy special, you only put it on the comic.
Guest:I mean, people started talking about directors of a comedy special probably five years ago.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Well, it's like I... My...
Marc:My late girlfriend directed my last two.
Marc:She was a director, film director.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:And we made choices around certain things because it's like everyone kind of comes upon the revelation that you can't really reinvent the special that much.
Marc:There is a notion to it that, you know, like what I realized and what she realized was that, you know, I'm best in an intimate situation.
Marc:So she had to figure out how to shoot close and get those type of shots while either through a crane or actually, you know, coming on stage, you know, at certain points.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But what I knew is like, I just don't want to see the audience.
Marc:I want them to be there, but you'll never cut away to them.
Guest:Yeah, well, that was a big move that happened, you know, probably reactionary to the 90s where it was like all fucking audience... Well, they used them to... To edit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, I mean, people don't see it.
Guest:You see it like, oh, it's funny.
Guest:I mean, those people probably aren't even laughing at that.
Marc:At the joke, sure.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:The irony is that taking away the audience to let the words speak for themselves, literally nobody talked about what I said in the special.
Guest:It was all about the fact that there was no audience, both good and bad.
Guest:And I didn't like...
Guest:getting any type of attention, positive or negative, that didn't feel like I earned it.
Marc:But the thing about the audience is that if you're sitting at home alone, the idea is you're not part of that audience, but the audience dictates your timing.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:So that experience is going to translate to someone watching it themselves.
Guest:Right.
Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that's dug in.
Guest:It was experimental, and I dig that.
Guest:I'm into the experimental nature of it, and I was excited by the radical idea.
Guest:It just felt like two people's visions together, as opposed to a unified marriage of- What was that one called?
Guest:Self-titled, Drew Michael.
Guest:And this new one-
Guest:you directed yeah so that was so i directed it because i didn't want to go through this experience again where i didn't feel like positive or negative i earned but the funny thing about this one the response why is it called red blue what is it red blue green why i mean you know what am i missing something
Guest:I think I get cagey about explaining what things mean.
Guest:What's the title?
Marc:Red, Blue, Green.
Marc:That's it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Let's name it.
Guest:Drew Michael Red, Blue, Green.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But why Red, Blue, Green?
Guest:Well, but now I have to explain.
Guest:I don't want to explain.
Guest:Whatever you think.
Guest:But you know why.
Marc:I mean, yeah, you have choices that you make, but- But it's not revealed in the special.
Marc:I'm not missing something.
Guest:No.
Guest:It's an interpretive thing that I feel weird spelling it out.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Fine.
Guest:I'm not trying to be closed off.
Marc:No, whatever you want to do, bud.
Marc:But the way that thing is shot-
Marc:It is pretty traditional until it isn't.
Marc:There's a couple of close ups that were effective in a way that I thought there was a an interesting bit of camera work.
Marc:But but ultimately the joke is the reveal on some level.
Marc:And but it is presented as a classic comedy special.
Guest:For sure.
Guest:And I mean, the thing that I wanted to do was lean into that.
Guest:Like you say, there's only so many places you can put six cameras or five cameras, whatever it is.
Guest:But lean into aesthetic, lean into lighting, lean into the set design, so on and so forth, and create an atmosphere.
Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, we drew from a couple of different, you know, lookbook inspirations and tried to create a mood that just felt, you know, obviously the drive in comedy specials lately has become more cinematic.
Guest:Like, you know, I think five years ago, someone was like, hey, what if this shit looked good?
Guest:And it was like a radical...
Guest:act it was like hey what if we like all these cameras we have what if we didn't just throw them on tripods and light this shit like a game show what if we like thought about this and were conscious about it and you know and people like um
Guest:You know, I mean, I don't know, but someone like Bo Burnham was pretty instrumental in doing that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, both his own specials and Gerard's special.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:With the tiered, with the balconies, the Gerard special?
Guest:Yeah, the eight.
Guest:But, like, just, like, it was a new way to do it.
Guest:No, I get it.
Marc:I get it.
Guest:Yeah, you know, it was in the round, so that's not new.
Guest:I mean, you know, a million people have done the round, but, like...
Guest:Just the way it was shot, it's like you haven't seen anything like that before.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I mean, and I think that's good.
Marc:I do think it should all service the stand-up, though.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:You don't want the aesthetic to overtake the content.
Guest:Yeah, well, it's tricky.
Guest:It is tricky.
Guest:But my intention was definitely to lean into the tradition of it and lean into the classic nature of it because I'm, like you say, the kind of comedy I'm doing, it's not...
Guest:I'm cut from a classic cloth.
Guest:It's kind of old school.
Guest:It's new in the sense that I hopefully have new things to say, but you can trace it back to- Yeah, you're doing stand-up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Club stand-up.
Guest:You would call that stand-up.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Well, good.
Marc:I enjoyed it, and it was good talking to you.
Marc:You feel good?
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Guest:Everything work out?
Guest:You know, I think we made some headway.
Guest:Good.
Marc:Me too.
Marc:I appreciate you having me.
Marc:Yeah, thanks for doing it.
Marc:All right, well, that's that.
Marc:I hope that wasn't too awkward or weird.
Marc:His special, Drew Michael, Red, Blue, Green, is now streaming on HBO Max.
Marc:And now I'm going to play this Wes Paul for you.
Marc:Muddy.
Marc:Muddy.
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey and La Fonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.