Episode 1276 - Bob Spitz
Marc:all right folks let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast welcome to it um
Marc:I'm getting excited about going to New York to do the show at town hall on the 13th.
Marc:I'll be in, where am I?
Marc:Ridgefield, Connecticut on the 11th.
Marc:Correct.
Marc:I don't know if there, there might be tickets for Ridgefield, Connecticut.
Marc:I'll be there on the 11th at 8 PM.
Marc:I don't know if I, I can't tell if there are tickets left.
Marc:It doesn't say sold out.
Marc:Let's see.
Marc:Pretty close to sold out.
Marc:So it looks like there's a few tickets.
Marc:Uh,
Marc:But New York is sold out on the 13th.
Marc:And I've got some exciting news for you, New York people.
Marc:For those of you in the New York City area, we just added this to the calendar.
Marc:On Sunday, November 14th, the day after my show at Town Hall, we'll be doing a special live taping of WTF, our first episode.
Marc:Since 2015, it's going to be at the Paris Theater in Midtown Manhattan.
Marc:And my guest will be Jason Bailey, author of the new book, Fun City Cinema, New York City and the Movies That Made It.
Marc:We'll talk all about the great movies in New York City history at one of the great old New York City movie theaters.
Marc:And we'll get the audience in on the conversation.
Marc:Tickets are free.
Marc:And next week, we'll let you know when and how to get them.
Marc:OK, make that your morning.
Marc:I think it's going to be in the morning, November 14th at the Paris Theater.
Marc:Me talking to Jason Bailey and you guys hanging around.
Marc:So there, put that in your noggin.
Marc:Hold on to it.
Marc:Bob Spitz is on the show today.
Marc:He's written bestselling biographies of the Beatles, Bob Dylan, Julia Child.
Marc:His new biography is on Led Zeppelin.
Marc:He's also a guy who worked in the music business earlier in his life.
Marc:And it's quite a book.
Marc:They're all quite.
Marc:They're all quite a books.
Marc:They're all quite.
Marc:I don't know what I'm saying.
Marc:I went to this doctor last week.
Marc:It was like, I don't even know what you call him.
Marc:Hold on.
Marc:Maybe I'll look it up.
Marc:But I don't know if I have ever felt good.
Marc:And
Marc:I don't know what that means.
Marc:I know I'm getting older, but I don't know how I'm supposed to feel.
Marc:When people say they feel great, I don't know what that means.
Marc:I don't know that I've ever felt great.
Marc:So I've gotten...
Marc:Kind of physical.
Marc:Everything seems to be OK.
Marc:My ears fucked up.
Marc:I don't know what that is, but somebody referred me to this guy and this guy deals with, you know, people who want to get level somehow who don't feel quite right.
Marc:And I just looked up what OMD means.
Marc:Oriental medical doctor.
Marc:I don't know what I license acupuncturist.
Marc:So I go there because I just don't feel quite right now.
Marc:And he goes over all of my panels and my blood work.
Marc:He goes into this big spiel like, you know, what's going on?
Marc:Give me your complaints.
Marc:I'm like, I just don't feel great.
Marc:And I'm 58.
Marc:Got a little bit of gunk in my heart.
Marc:But he looks at all my work, all the blood work.
Marc:He says, you're doing great.
Marc:I tell him what I'm eating.
Marc:He says, you're doing great.
Marc:And I'm like, OK.
Marc:And then, you know, we just start going over stuff, my exercise, all that stuff.
Marc:And then he like the thing that he does with, you know, he didn't give me anything.
Marc:He said, I need these tests.
Marc:And I guess the deal is you do these under the radar tests instead of doing tests.
Marc:That test to see if you have or try to read the test to see if you're sick.
Marc:These are, I guess, preventative and they look for not triggers.
Marc:What's the word?
Marc:Markers or something of other things.
Marc:Alzheimer's, insulin problems, vitamin D deficiency, vitamin deficiency, testosterone.
Marc:So there's all these different tests that don't get done specifically.
Marc:at the western doctor to see if i'm you know there's a marker for alzheimer's or if my insulin's fucked up or if my food sensitivities my testosterone's on the wane all this stuff and i'm like at the beginning of the shtick i was like ah fuck what i get myself into look at all these buddhas around and jars of bugs and things and but by the end of it i'm like well that makes sense why not test the do these off the grid tests to see what this is all about but bottom line in terms of feeling great
Marc:I get up at 6.30, 6, 6.30.
Marc:I usually work out or run up a mountain.
Marc:I do podcasts.
Marc:I freak out.
Marc:I drink a bunch of coffee.
Marc:I do stand-up comedy.
Marc:I do whatever I'm going to do.
Marc:I have very full days, it seems, and I don't go to bed until midnight, 1 in the morning.
Marc:So, right there, it seems like prognosis is get more sleep.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:But there's all these tests.
Marc:I'm not this kind of comic, but, you know...
Marc:I mean, they wanted a stool sample, which happens when you're older.
Marc:Usually it's a dipstick of some kind.
Marc:But this woman, you know, hands me a cup, like a cup, like eight ounce cup-ish thing, a cup with a screw top.
Marc:I'm like, what's this for?
Marc:She's like the stool sample.
Marc:I'm like, what?
Marc:And then she hands me a tray.
Marc:Yeah, like an old French fry tray or the kind of thing you get fish and chips in.
Marc:But this wasn't for fish and chips.
Marc:And this was for poop.
Marc:She's like, just, you know, lay one down in the tray.
Marc:Then put it in the cup.
Marc:It's like, what the fuck is this?
Marc:I don't mean to talk about this.
Marc:It's nasty.
Marc:But are they going to eyeball this stuff?
Marc:Don't they have the equipment?
Marc:Are our oriental medical doctors not allowed to have the same poop processing equipment to check stool samples?
Marc:Are they just going to pick through it?
Marc:What?
Marc:I mean, I was just it's a French fry tray, man.
Marc:Sorry.
Marc:I'm sorry if that bummed you out.
Marc:I'm trying.
Marc:I'm trying to deal.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Just take this French fry tray and fill it with poop and then put it in the cup.
Marc:What?
Marc:Wait, what?
Marc:I don't know, man.
Marc:So I knew Bob Spitz was coming over.
Marc:Talk about the Zeppelin book.
Marc:So I went through all the Zeppelin albums.
Marc:For some reason, I listened to Into the Outdoor first.
Marc:And then I started in order because Into the Outdoor came out when I was in high school.
Marc:And in my recollection, I mean, I guess Presence maybe came out before that.
Marc:But like before that, I didn't know they seemed like it was of another time.
Marc:But everybody was profoundly excited about In Through the Outdoor.
Guest:But we were all pretty happy about it.
Marc:I mean, it was a little different for Zep, a little poppy, but it was a big thing.
Marc:And then they had the inner sleeve that you could hit with a brush, a wet brush, and a built-in watercolor.
Marc:Some people did it.
Marc:Some people didn't.
Marc:I think I have a copy of it with the unpainted inner sleeve.
Marc:But anyway, I listened to all the Zeppelin.
Marc:But it turns out that Bob Spitz has been around a long time.
Marc:He was actually one of Bruce Springsteen's original managers.
Marc:He had managed Elton John.
Marc:He wrote songs.
Marc:He was in the publishing world.
Marc:He played just a bigger life than just a book about Led Zeppelin or the Beatles or Bob Dylan or Woodstock or Ronald Reagan.
Marc:But the book that he's here to talk about, Led Zeppelin, the biography, comes out next Tuesday, November 9th.
Marc:You can pre-order it right now wherever you get books.
Marc:This is me talking to Bob Spitz, whose daughter was very excited he was doing this show.
Marc:I hope it works out.
Marc:Is that a public thing, the Rolling Stones biographer?
Marc:You just signed a deal?
Guest:I did.
Marc:To be the Rolling Stones biographer.
Guest:How do you like that?
Guest:Is that exciting to you?
Guest:Oh, absolutely.
Guest:So I've been Dylan's biographer, the Beatles biographer, Led Zeppelin's biographer.
Guest:It puts a period.
Marc:Let's not forget Ronald Reagan and Julia Child.
Marc:I don't want to ruin the run.
Guest:Yeah, well, we can forget Reagan, but Julia Child, you know, is the documentary of my book is opening the same week as the Led Zeppelin thing.
Marc:Well, I mean, she was one of the great rock and roll goddesses.
Marc:She was.
Marc:Julia Child.
Marc:A lot of people don't realize how hard she rocked.
Marc:I do.
Marc:I'm a big fan of Julia Child.
Marc:Yeah, I knew her well, actually.
Marc:Oh, you did?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:But like this book, the Zeppelin book, it made me go back, like, you know, I grew up,
Marc:I'm younger than you.
Marc:So I was already Zeppelin to me was already.
Marc:It wasn't oldies because they had established themselves as sort of eternal.
Marc:Right.
Marc:In the in the high school milieu of a townie rock where I grew up in New Mexico.
Marc:So, you know, we were listening to physical graffiti houses of the holy.
Marc:And of course, Zeppelin for all the time, you know, trying to slow dance in junior high to a stairway to heaven.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right up to the fast part.
Marc:And then everything got awkward.
Marc:But I do remember when In Through the Outdoor was coming out, I must have been a sophomore.
Marc:What was that, like 77?
Marc:77.
Marc:Yeah, so we were like, oh my God.
Marc:It was literally the first Zep album in our conscious lifetime.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I just listened to it again, and it's a weird record.
Marc:Very weird.
Marc:And my friend Dean says that's because Jimmy was so strung out on dope, and Robert Plant was on his way out the door, and it was just Bonham and Jones fucking around with a synthesizer in Switzerland.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:That's exactly right.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Crazy weird, you know, sitting there in Sweden.
Guest:John Paul Jones in Sweden, not Switzerland, and John Bonham.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And they were waiting the whole time for Jimmy.
Guest:Where is Jimmy?
Guest:There was 10 days of non-recording.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just in the hotel.
Guest:Jimmy is in his room in the dark.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:doesn't get up at all.
Guest:In Sweden.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And one day they said, Jimmy Page is coming into the studio.
Guest:They actually ran down there and worked as fast as they could.
Marc:Really, because it was just when he was conscious.
Marc:Exactly right.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, I like that record.
Marc:But I'm the guy who has a problem with the banjo on Gallo's pole.
Marc:So I'm kind of specific and odd about that thing.
Marc:For me, that song is like, what a great fucking tune.
Marc:Why is there banjo in it now?
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:Because, you know, they were sitting around the house, and they had nothing to do, and there were all these instruments laying there, and Jimmy had never touched a banjo before, so he just had to play the banjo.
Guest:Is this the real story of why that's there?
Guest:That's exactly why it is.
Guest:To me, it changes the whole tone of the song.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, they were up in Robert's childhood home in Wales.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, when you're in Wales, there's nothing going on.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So they had a lot of good weed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And all these instruments.
Guest:And, you know, they just, they played folky type stuff.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Well, they liked that.
Marc:I mean, like, you know, because I listened to...
Marc:Some of the stuff, like, you know, like, I had to go, like, because they mentioned Roy Harper in a song, like, I had to go, you know, track down all the Roy Harper records, and, like, you know, I listened to the stuff that sort of was moving through, you know, Page anyways at that time, and, you know, how they kind of integrated that into whatever they were.
Guest:Yeah, they pulled all that stuff, and the Harper stuff, the Burt Yanch stuff.
Guest:Burt Yanch.
Guest:Yeah, another great guitar player.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, but...
Marc:Bert Yonch, again, I've attempted, and I have a lot of his records, and I don't mind the band, Pentangle.
Marc:Yeah, Pentangle.
Marc:But him solo work is just snoozeville to me.
Marc:I appreciate his guitar playing, but it doesn't light me up, really.
Guest:You know, Jimmy listened to all this stuff, even as a kid.
Guest:He even took some of it.
Guest:Yeah, he swiped a lot of it, anything that he could get his hands on.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Jimmy was a great, you know, he was an innovator and he listened to things and then he reinterpreted them.
Guest:And some people said, oh, you stole the stuff.
Guest:But music evolves, man.
Marc:Of course it does.
Marc:And I'll get pushback for that.
Marc:But the truth of the matter is, it's like, well, now when people cut hip hop records, they'll just out of the gate cut everybody in.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:Everybody gets a check.
Marc:I think the biggest problem with Page was he was a little reticent to maybe cut Willie Dixon a check.
Guest:Well, you know, I mean, really, they stole Willie Dixon's stuff.
Guest:They stole a lot of the old blues things.
Guest:They kept the same tune, almost the same words.
Guest:And they asked Robert, change the words around a little.
Guest:That was on the Lemon Song?
Guest:On the Lemon Song and a few other songs that they did.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:But look, man, I mean, this is a big undertaking.
Marc:Obviously, the other books you've written, Dylan and the Beatles, big undertakings.
Marc:But I mean, it doesn't seem like you're out for the money.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:I mean, obviously, it's going to probably do all right if there are people who love Zeppelin and are willing to read.
Marc:I mean, for some reason, I put Zeppelin in a different category as Dylan and the Beatles.
Marc:Yeah, slightly, yeah.
Marc:In terms of the specific type of following they may have.
Marc:I'm sure there's a lot of crossover, but no one's... I don't know.
Marc:I think that there's a... It seems that with the Beatles and with Dylan, you're dealing with real magicians, and I think Jimmy Page was an aspiring magician, and that there's a tremendous amount of mystery around those other two bands.
Guest:It's true, but Jimmy loved Dylan, absolutely adored Dylan.
Guest:I'm sure.
Guest:And Robert loved the Beatles, so...
Guest:When they did a lot of their songs that went on for a half hour, you'd hear bits and pieces of Please Please Me or I Want to Hold Your Hand.
Guest:Robert would just weave them into the songs as they sang them.
Marc:But I was just like wondering, because I know that you used to, you were in the music business.
Marc:I was.
Marc:Early on.
Marc:Yes, yes, yes.
Guest:But like, where do you come from?
Guest:Where do I come from?
Guest:I come from a little town in Pennsylvania, actually Redding, Pennsylvania, which the New York Times has declared the most impoverished city in America.
Guest:Congratulations.
Guest:Yes, thank you.
Guest:And my parents put me on a bus to New York after college and said- Well, what was the world there?
Guest:You're a Jewish guy?
Guest:I'm a Jewish guy, yeah.
Marc:And from Redding, Pennsylvania?
Guest:How do you like that?
Guest:What were they doing out there, the Jews?
Guest:With all Pennsylvania Dutch people right after the war, it was not a great place to grow up being Jewish.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Because they were all German.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But the Pennsylvania Dutch are a little different than just straight up Germans.
Guest:But would your dad have a business there?
Guest:My dad was a doctor.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:And of course, I was supposed to follow in the footsteps.
Marc:Yeah, you're always supposed to until you realize, I can't do that.
Guest:No, it was my parents who said it.
Guest:Don't do it.
Guest:Go to New York, get the music business out of your... I was a guitar player from the time I was 12.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:What year?
Guest:Oh, God, you really want me to say that on the air?
Guest:Sure, man.
Guest:When I was 12, 1962.
Marc:Okay, so you're coming right out of the beginning of rock and roll.
Marc:Of the Beatles, yeah.
Marc:Right out of the beginning of the Beatles.
Guest:So the Beatles are the ones that did it to you?
Guest:Well, actually, this is the amazing thing.
Guest:I saw them on Ed Sullivan.
Guest:The next day, I went to the bus stop, and every kid had their hair combed down like the Beatles, except one.
Guest:And that little asshole said, the Beatles are dead.
Guest:They are nothing.
Guest:They will be gone in two weeks.
Guest:I was that little asshole.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Fuck the Beatles.
Guest:I was a Bob Dylan and Joan Baez person.
Guest:You're a folky.
Guest:I was a folky.
Marc:Yes, I was.
Marc:You died in a little folky, huh?
Marc:To the point where rock and roll.
Marc:So you were the guy, but probably by that time you weren't.
Marc:When Dylan picked up the Strat, you were like, it's blasphemy.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:I got it right away.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I became a huge Beatles fan.
Guest:What turned you?
Guest:Why?
Guest:Why?
Guest:Oh, Rubber Soul turned me.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So that brought it all together for you.
Guest:Yeah, look, it's folky and it's cool.
Guest:And intelligent.
Guest:And gorgeous harmonies.
Guest:And who can come up with that stuff?
Guest:You know, I mean, those guys, you said magicians, you hit it right on the head.
Marc:Well, you know, it's a weird thing, and I imagine, like, I know you've done some research on this as well, that, you know, I believe that music is magic and when it works, and there's no real understanding why it works.
Marc:And the reason I think that is you can evolve through life with a song or with a record.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:And it keeps sort of manifesting itself differently to you as you get older.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And look at somebody like Dylan or Paul McCartney.
Guest:I mean, they've spanned 60 years.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I've had enough of both of them.
Guest:But yes.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But their music evolves and changes.
Guest:So for me, I got to New York.
Guest:What year is this now?
Guest:71.
Guest:That's good.
Guest:And I got a job.
Guest:Dirty, beat up New York.
Guest:Yeah, but I wandered into a job with the Partridge family.
Guest:Why?
Guest:Because it always begins with the Partridge family, Mark.
Guest:Does it?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And one night, I was in the office late at night.
Guest:The office was closed.
Guest:Hold on.
Guest:What office?
Guest:It was on 53rd Street in New York.
Guest:Whose office was it?
Guest:Wes Farrell, who produced the Partridge family.
Marc:All right, so this is the guy that you're working for?
Marc:You get a job at Wes Ferrell.
Marc:I saw his name.
Marc:What was that guy?
Marc:He was a songwriter, first of all.
Marc:He wrote Hang on Sloopy.
Marc:Right, so you're a guitar player.
Guest:You go to New York.
Guest:How do you get a job with this guy?
Guest:I needed to get into the music business.
Marc:I decided to be his errand boy.
Marc:Okay, so you're working for Wes Ferrell.
Marc:Hang on Sloopy, which was the McCoys, which was Rick Derringer.
Marc:Rick Derringer on guitar.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And he re-recorded it himself later.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And so you're just doing, you're getting the hang of the music business by working with the guy that represented the Partridge family?
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And down the hall were two guys, Mike Appel and Jimmy Criticus, who were writing the music for the show.
Guest:We're in the office late one night and Mike runs in.
Guest:So this is the podcast.
Guest:bubblegum pop machine.
Guest:You bet.
Guest:That's what it is.
Guest:Mike runs in and says, Bobby, you gotta come down here and hear this guy.
Guest:There's a guy in the waiting room.
Guest:I don't know how he got up here, but you gotta hear him.
Guest:And I walked into the waiting room and there was this kind of rangy looking guy with a ratty looking girlfriend.
Guest:And he pulls out his guitar and he plays three songs.
Guest:And we almost fell out of our chairs.
Guest:And this is Bruce Springsteen.
Guest:In 1972.
Guest:71.
Guest:71.
Marc:At Wes Farrell's office.
Marc:The guy who reps the Partridge family.
Guest:Now, we didn't want Wes to get his hands on him.
Guest:But wait, so Bruce comes in, what, to sell songs?
Guest:Yeah, he's looking for a publisher.
Guest:He's looking to try to get a deal some way.
Marc:He needed money.
Marc:Right, so he hears this guy, he's writing these songs that he thinks that Wes could move to his artists or to other artists.
Marc:Or anybody.
Guest:Bruce was looking for anybody who could inject a little cash into it.
Marc:But I think like, you know, I don't know that everybody realizes this because, you know, I watched the we read the Velvet Underground documentary.
Marc:There were a lot of these houses, these publishing houses that were fueling this sort of like, you know, second string pop music market.
Guest:And West was a big one.
Guest:He represented Tony Orlando and Don and about 15 other bands.
Guest:And Don Kirshner was the big one.
Guest:He was also right around the corner.
Marc:These are guys that made their fortunes in music publishing.
Marc:You bet.
Marc:Okay, so Springsteen comes in.
Marc:You're a kid.
Marc:They drag you down the hall.
Marc:You're sitting there with the Jersey boy.
Marc:He's probably sweaty and smelly.
Marc:Not really.
Guest:He looked all right?
Guest:Yeah, Bruce looked all right.
Guest:He was just, he was unformed, completely unformed.
Guest:What were the songs?
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:He played a song.
Guest:Well, he played How to Be a Saint in the City.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He played a song called If I Was the Priest, which he just recorded recently.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And a third song that he's never recorded called No Need, which is, I think, one of the most beautiful songs he ever wrote.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And I happened to record it that night.
Guest:What do you mean?
Guest:Well, you know, anytime somebody pulled out a guitar.
Guest:So you got on the knobs?
Guest:I got on the knobs.
Guest:And I had a little tape recorder, and I still have that tape.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:It's beautiful, man.
Guest:Really?
Guest:It is just gorgeous.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:And so we decided Wes can't get his hands on this guy, because if he does, he'll try to turn him into David Cassidy.
Guest:So we quit our jobs the next morning.
Marc:Oh, so that's right.
Marc:So your fear was that he would he would try to take this guy and manufacture him into a a pop star, a performing artist.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Along the lines of of the part of your family.
Marc:But I don't think Bruce would have had it.
Marc:So, OK, so you quit with what's he what do you do?
Marc:You tell Bruce what?
Marc:Why do you quit?
Guest:We went out and had a hamburger with Bruce.
Guest:No, without Bruce.
Guest:You and a Pell.
Guest:Yeah, and we wanted to slap ourselves.
Guest:Did we really hear this?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, is this true?
Guest:This guy, I mean, we knew right away.
Guest:There was no hesitation whatsoever.
Guest:It was a real deal.
Guest:Oh, yes.
Marc:And this is the time of, like, everything shifting.
Marc:So you're in this Wes Farrell office with this bubblegum pop shit that's, you know, it sort of keeps going.
Marc:But ultimately, you knew what was going on in the village.
Marc:You knew what was going on.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:In, you know, in rock and downtown.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Absolutely.
Guest:Hall & Oates was that week.
Guest:Billy Joel was that week.
Guest:They were all starting to perform in New York.
Guest:They were all in the clubs.
Marc:What about downtown?
Marc:What about, like, you know, Seabees?
Marc:Was that yet?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:Seabees was.
Guest:And it was Max's Kansas City.
Marc:So there was the Warhol shit going on downtown.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you're sort of more in the mainstream.
Marc:We were uptown.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We were uptown.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So what do you do?
Guest:You go have a hamburger.
Guest:And we decide, you know, Mike and Jimmy were 10 years older than me.
Guest:They had families.
Guest:I mean, they needed the insurance and everything else.
Guest:You bet.
Guest:It didn't matter.
Guest:We knew.
Guest:We got out.
Guest:We had a deal for Bruce within a week at Columbia Records.
Marc:But did you tell Bruce you were on the manager?
Guest:Oh, absolutely.
Guest:How did that go?
Guest:Mike took care of that because he was- So Mike was a manager?
Guest:No, none of us were managers.
Guest:Mike was a songwriter.
Guest:We were doing this on the fly.
Guest:We got a lawyer the next day.
Guest:We got a contract whipped up.
Guest:Mike talked to Bruce.
Guest:Was it a reasonable contract?
No.
Guest:Or was it one of those horrible contracts?
Guest:Well, it was at the time, but Bruce later sued Mike, and they worked that out.
Guest:So you were repping, you had a record deal for him?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Actually, Mike was a brash guy.
Guest:He picks up the phone, and he calls John Hammond.
Guest:Now, John Hammond, for those of the people- John Hammond Sr.
Guest:John Hammond Sr.
Guest:At Columbia.
Guest:Who discovered Bessie Smith, Billie Holiday, Benny Goodman.
Guest:Dylan, recorded all of them.
Guest:Aretha.
Guest:All of them but his son.
Guest:Stevie Ray Vaughan.
Guest:Mike picks up the phone.
Guest:He calls John Hammond's office and he says, we hear you have ears.
Guest:We're going to put them to the test.
Guest:We're going to see if that's really true.
Guest:Hammond was livid.
Guest:He was enraged.
Guest:He said, you get up in my office.
Guest:Cocky bastard.
Marc:You get up in my office right away.
Marc:Yeah, with this guy.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I've heard those tapes.
Marc:I've heard like they released that stuff.
Guest:They just released it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The stuff of what the demos he did for Columbia.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Great stuff.
Guest:Well, even better stuff is Bruce and I went into a studio a week later and recorded every one of his songs, just the two of us for copyright purposes.
Guest:No one's ever heard.
Guest:I have the only tape.
Guest:How many of those?
Guest:How many songs?
Guest:We did about 45 songs.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Laid them down really fast.
Guest:So what are you going to do with those?
Guest:Nothing ever, and that's why Bruce trusts me.
Guest:Are you friends with Bruce?
Guest:You know, I haven't seen him in a long time, but Bruce has integrity, and that's what has really made his career last for so long.
Marc:So what do you do as your new manager?
Marc:You got Bruce Springsteen.
Marc:How long does that last?
Marc:What do you get him?
Marc:What do you do?
Guest:We were making it up as we went.
Guest:We got an agent at William Morris because he was the guy I bought groups from when I was a college kid.
Guest:You bought what from?
Guest:We bought bands from him at William Morris for our college performances.
Marc:Oh, wait.
Marc:So you used to book bands in college?
Marc:I did.
Marc:And this was the guy you dealt with?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I called him and he said, oh, everybody's got to get... I said, we've got a guy.
Guest:He says, everybody's got a guy.
Guest:I said, you've got to see us.
Guest:We're going to be at Maxis Kansas City.
Guest:He goes, oh, I just can't do this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Anyway, he agrees to come down.
Guest:And who's the band?
Guest:The original band?
Guest:It was Bruce and Gary Talent, Vinny on drums.
Guest:Danny was still playing the organ.
Guest:And I sat in every once in a while on a few things.
Guest:On guitar.
Guest:Yeah, on guitar.
Guest:No kidding.
Guest:So this guy walks in, this agent, and he's not at all what I expected.
Guest:He looks at me and he goes, didn't expect me, did you, motherfucker?
Guest:The guy is a six-foot, gorgeous black guy in a full-length black leather jacket.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:A duster?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he is the only black guy at the William Morris Agency.
Guest:He's their token black guy.
Guest:But he represented the Temps.
Guest:He represented Stevie Wonder.
Guest:I mean, Sam McKeith was the real deal.
Guest:So he listens to Bruce.
Guest:And afterwards, he walks up to me and he grabs me by the shirt.
Guest:And he said, if this guy gets away from me, I will track you down to the ends of the earth.
Guest:Yeah, and he booked Bruce blind for the next two years really you bet and built him Ab we played every every gig that was available We did we work so this is before the e-street band.
Guest:This is B. Yes before the I am before the e-street So what's the Elton John story?
Guest:Well, you know, I left Bruce because Mike was fiddling with Bruce's money.
Guest:Appel?
Guest:So you didn't want to go down with the bad scene?
Guest:No, and I told Bruce about it, but Bruce, you know, Bruce was, he had just been on the cover of Time and Newsweek, and so I went to him and I just said, look, this is what's going on.
Guest:He did not want to hear it because, you know, Bruce was concentrating on the band and on the music.
Guest:Did he want to hear that he was getting fucked?
Guest:He didn't believe it.
Guest:I left.
Marc:I walked out.
Guest:I left everything.
Marc:Save yourself.
Marc:So at least you have your own integrity intact.
Guest:And I got a call from Wes Farrell's old receptionist who said, I'm working for somebody new.
Guest:I hear you're out of a job and he'd like to meet you.
Guest:Turns out it's Elton John.
Guest:Before he comes to the States?
Guest:He was just about to launch Yellow Brick Road the whole tour.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:So it was after the Troubadour gigs and after- Absolutely.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, this was the height of Elton's popularity, really.
Guest:I mean, Yellowbrook Road, I consider his masterpiece.
Guest:So you're the guy?
Guest:Well, I was handling him in North America.
Marc:No, but I mean, like, why you?
Marc:Why me?
Marc:Because I was good at what I did.
Marc:But you're a nice guy, I guess.
Marc:I mean, you had one guy, you had Bruce Springsteen, hadn't even had a hit record yet, and Elton John on the Yellowbrook Road album's like, I need that guy?
Guest:I-
Guest:I didn't have Elton John.
Guest:I was working for a guy named Dick James, who was Elton John's big manager.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So it wasn't like, I need spits.
Guest:No, but- I need spits.
Guest:But Dick James was in London, and they had me handle this in- Oh, okay.
Marc:So you're working for the company, and you're going to manage him in the States.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Exactly right.
Guest:You set up that tour?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And we went from with Bruce, which the tour with Bruce was two station wagons, a bag of Fritos, a bag of Oreos, and a lot of Cokes.
Guest:Elton John, we got our own 747.
Guest:I mean, you know, your eyes bug out of your head after a while.
Marc:So that was... So, okay.
Marc:So this is... So Elton John, now you're in it.
Marc:Now you're like, you know...
Marc:uh how big it can get yeah you bet and for two years it was fun and then i had to get out it just but like you're dealing with elton john so imagine like was this like this didn't seem to be the uh the uh the the the drug fueled insanity no no he and i have to tell you elton was the such a gentleman i mean he used to call me mr bob i went reg you're like you're like a couple years older than i am to
Guest:He was a sweet guy.
Guest:He was really a hard worker, no drugs involved.
Guest:And it was during the time when Elton came out, which was a very big thing.
Guest:The Elbic Road Tour?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah, and you think that was his best record?
Guest:I think it's his best record.
Marc:I think it's remarkable.
Marc:I think it's amazing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Funeral for a Friend.
Marc:Yep.
Guest:And so at the end, after two years, I had had it.
Guest:What do you mean you had it?
Guest:What was the matter?
Guest:I had been on the road for six, seven years.
Guest:I had no friends.
Guest:I had no house.
Guest:I didn't know where I was anymore.
Guest:And you weren't playing guitar?
Guest:Uh-uh.
Guest:I wasn't a musician anymore.
Guest:You were just a guy managing the band.
Guest:I was on the hustle.
Guest:Were you a road manager?
Marc:No, Elton had his own road manager.
Marc:I handled business.
Marc:All right, so you're the guy that went to the office after the gig.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Where's the check?
Marc:Where's the cash?
Guest:Yep.
Guest:So I needed to get off the road.
Guest:I needed to reclaim my life, and I thought, I'll be a writer.
Guest:Why not?
Guest:Really?
Guest:That's what you did?
Guest:That's it.
Guest:So no more guitar.
Guest:You have guitars?
Guest:You ever pick them up?
Guest:I have one guitar that I just sold, and I'll tell you why it's remarkable.
Guest:It's remarkable because... You sold it for a million dollars.
Guest:Well, I sold it for a lot of money because it was the first Martin D35.
Guest:It was handmade by Fred Martin IV, and my parents bought it for my 14th birthday for the most remarkable... It was the highest-paid price for a guitar.
Guest:It cost them $450.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:And it didn't sell for a lot of money because C.F.
Guest:Martin handmade it and it was the first D35.
Guest:It sold for a lot of money because Bruce auditioned with it and Bruce played it on his first two albums.
Guest:And he testified to that.
Guest:And I had it for 50 years and thought at the end of 50 years, I've had it, I'll buy a house with it.
Marc:And you bought a house with the guitar.
Marc:Yeah, I did.
Marc:But did Bruce sign off on that?
Marc:Don't you have to have validation for that kind of shit?
Guest:Bruce couldn't remember how much he played with it.
Guest:He sent me a really nice note about it, but there are pictures of him with it.
Guest:So that really helped.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Who brokered that deal for you, Norm?
Guest:No, no, Heritage Auctions.
Guest:We sold it through Heritage Auctions.
Guest:Oh, big deal.
Guest:Yep, yep.
Marc:You bought a house with a guitar.
Marc:You bet.
Marc:God damn it.
Marc:Yep, it was fun.
Marc:So you get into writing.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:But I have to assume, I mean, obviously you're driven to understand and reflect on rock music and rock stardom and rock geniuses, but that's not how it starts, the writing?
Marc:No.
Guest:No, it's not.
Guest:I taught a class at the New School in New York and every week in front of 300 people.
Guest:Can anyone teach a class at the New School?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:What I did was I brought in rock stars and executives in the music business every week.
Guest:Okay, so you went to college.
Guest:I did.
Guest:Where?
Guest:A little school called Albright College in Reading, Pennsylvania.
Marc:I've heard about that.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:It's not a bad school.
Guest:It was all pre-med when I went to school.
Guest:All right, so you got a degree in what?
Guest:History and biology.
Guest:So what was the class?
Guest:The class was rock and roll.
Guest:It was called The Making of Superstars.
Guest:Okay, so what year is this?
Guest:Oh, my.
Guest:78, 79.
Guest:So, music business changing.
Guest:Sound is changing.
Guest:Yes, completely.
Guest:And so, every week, these rock and roll artists would come in.
Guest:Bruce did it.
Guest:Dick Clark did it.
Guest:Really?
Guest:It was great people.
Guest:Because you knew these guys.
Guest:I did.
Guest:And it was easy to get them because in those days, it was still kind of cool for a rock person to be in front of a college audience.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:They love to talk about themselves if they think they're getting some sort of music.
Marc:And this was a different type of respect.
Guest:Yes, college with quotes, you know.
Guest:And so I took those interviews and packaged them and sold them as a book, and that was my foot in the door.
Marc:All right, so in that, you know, in compiling that, you know, what did you learn?
Marc:What did I learn?
Marc:Wow.
Marc:In terms of like, so, you know, they had a thesis, rock stardom or whatever, you know, the stories of superstars.
Marc:So, like, I have to say that there's some sort of foundation to some part of your understanding and that, like, by bringing these guys in and transcribing this stuff, this was not your wisdom.
Marc:It was the wisdom of many.
Marc:So, you know, what kind of groundwork did that lay for you in understanding?
Guest:Oh, I mean everything.
Guest:It taught me so much about the business that I didn't even know before.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because, you know, it was every echelon.
Guest:It was the management.
Guest:It was the guys who promoted concerts.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And the artists, I mean, from everybody from Bruce and, you know, Van Morrison to people like Frank Barcelona, who was the most- Manager.
Guest:He was an agent.
Guest:An agent, right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And Warner Brothers, you know, producers.
Guest:And it was really kind of fantastic.
Guest:I mean, I learned everything that I could so that when I became a biographer, when I went to Paul McCartney or to Dylan, it was they knew that I knew what I was talking about and and would understand what they were telling me so that I could interpret it in a way that spoke to them.
Marc:Well, I mean, but so what is this thing?
Marc:So after you do this thing with the making of superstars, you decide you're going to go after Dylan?
Marc:That's it.
Guest:So how does that... It always starts, Mark, the same way.
Guest:I look to see who has written about these guys, and it's always fanboys or hacks.
Guest:All the facts are either wrong or they try to put themselves in the piece with the artist or you don't know where the quotes come from.
Guest:Where do they get those quotes?
Guest:Did they make them up?
Guest:They don't source them.
Guest:Anybody can do a biography.
Guest:Anybody can try, but if you do an authoritative, definitive biography... One that they sign off on.
Guest:Nobody signs off on my books.
Guest:I don't do books that they get approval of.
Marc:No, but I'm talking about access books.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So in terms of like, you know, if I decide like, I know a lot of stories about Bob Dylan, I'm going to write it in a book and call it a biography.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So that's that book.
Marc:But you're like, I want to write a book about Bob Dylan and you're you and Bob Dylan's going to talk to you.
Marc:So it's not that he signs off on it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you have access.
Marc:That's exactly right.
Marc:And that's the difference.
Marc:That is the difference.
Guest:He trusts you enough to at least initially let you do it.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And when I went to talk to Paul McCartney about doing The Beatles, we went down into his studio.
Guest:It was in a house that he lived in with Linda at the time.
Guest:This little unassuming house in Hastings.
Guest:And he said, come down to the studio.
Guest:And in the studio was every instrument from Abbey Road.
Guest:And so you asked me what the foundation is.
Guest:He knew that I was a musician.
Guest:So he starts to play some Beatles songs and he nods at me.
Guest:And I realize he's nodding at me to pick up the damn guitar.
Guest:Oh, did you?
Guest:You bet I did.
Guest:Are you kidding?
Guest:Who would pass that up?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It depends how confident you are.
Guest:So you see, that's the comfort level that these people have.
Guest:They're willing to talk to me because, number one, not only am I a musician who can understand what they're telling me, but I was a music business manager.
Guest:And so that I know the ins and outs of things.
Marc:I get that.
Marc:But when you were dealing with Dylan, I mean, this is a guy that has a lot invested in being cryptic and mysterious.
Guest:And he was.
Guest:He was cryptic and mysterious.
Marc:And he sort of got a racket going.
Marc:It's a hustle, right?
Marc:He's kind of a P.T.
Marc:Barnum of himself.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But here's what happened with that.
Guest:Before I approached him, I went to his hometown where...
Guest:where nobody had gone in Hibbing, Minnesota, almost to the Canadian border.
Guest:And it was so early in Dylan's fame that I went to his high school and they said, oh, we have all Bobby's papers downstairs, his compositions.
Guest:Would you like them?
Guest:When was this?
Guest:uh let's see it looks out in 88 so it wasn't like he was already pretty big dude so like oh he was he was big but nobody was doing the dylan biography oh no one had gone and worked around and i found a guy when he was little his father abe used to drive bob a half hour every week to talk to this black dj who was playing r b music
Guest:in a godforsaken little town.
Guest:And it took me six months to find a guy.
Guest:He was teaching history in a St.
Guest:Louis school.
Guest:And when I told him that Bobby Zimmerman was Bob Dylan, he put his head in his hands and he wept.
Guest:So when Dylan hears something like that- He didn't know that?
Guest:He didn't know it.
Guest:He had no idea.
Guest:He didn't see Bob Dylan and say, that's that kid?
Guest:No, he didn't realize it at all.
Guest:Their paths hadn't crossed.
Guest:And so when an artist hears that you've done that kind of legwork, they're willing to talk to you.
Guest:Well, yeah, because then they're sort of like, this guy's going to reintroduce me to me.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:I found all the people that he went to camp with and his camp girlfriend.
Guest:That's so funny.
Marc:So you reintroduced Bob Dylan to Little Jewish Bob Dylan from Minnesota.
Guest:And I did the same thing for the Beatles.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:I did.
Guest:I did the same thing for the Beatles.
Guest:Well, who else did you dig up for Dylan?
Guest:Oh, let's see.
Guest:All the people... Oh, Bob Dylan joined a fraternity at the University of Minnesota.
Marc:Oh, this is a secret, Dylan.
Marc:This is a Dylan that... Bob Dylan's trying to keep... He doesn't want you to know about.
Guest:This is Bob Zimmerman, you say.
Guest:And so I found all his fraternity brothers.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Marc:What'd they say about him?
Guest:Obnoxious little guy.
Guest:Weird.
Guest:Weird.
Guest:They couldn't get a handle on him.
Marc:Yeah, no one can get a handle on him.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you tried.
Marc:It was fun, man.
Marc:It was great.
Marc:But so after that, like, okay, so let's render it down.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:So, you know, you dug in and, you know, there was no end to it.
Marc:And, you know, like, you know, because, you know, Dylan's hustle is deep.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And, you know, and the shtick is deep and it evolves.
Marc:But what did you come away with after the full arc of the thing in terms of, you know.
Marc:Who he is as a person.
Guest:Well, look, I mean, Bob Dylan is on a different planet, man.
Guest:I know.
Guest:He's planet Dylan.
Guest:He comes from Jupiter.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Jupiter.
Guest:Well, yeah, I didn't make that connection.
Guest:Nice pun.
Guest:But anyway, he is the real McCoy.
Guest:What does that mean?
Guest:For me, he is Shakespeare to me, man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And when he was a kid, Tom Paxton told me he walked uptown with Dylan one time and
Guest:In the early 60s, they were playing in the village and they decided to walk up 6th Avenue to Midtown.
Guest:And by the time they got there, Bob had written three songs.
Guest:I mean, he said it was just pouring out of Dylan's pores.
Guest:He couldn't stop it.
Marc:Yeah, no, I think that he's a vessel and that there's some sort of natural thing that happens with him in words that is uniquely his own and inspired and otherworldly.
Marc:But he's got some sort of amazing knack for that.
Marc:And then I guess over time, I don't know, you tell me, it seems that he was able, that gift never stopped flowing.
Marc:And so he could sort of, you know, kind of adjust his personalities around it.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:And he could apply it, his gift to whatever form he wanted to.
Guest:But he also at some point realized that he was different from everybody else.
Guest:And when he realized he was different, he decided to behave differently.
Guest:He put himself in his own little world and he operates on a different frequency than anybody else.
Guest:Really...
Marc:Weird yes we're his own time zone you bet no I get it and he's still in it you know and I I get a little cranky about him because like I just you know when he when he put out that last record and that murder most foul the 18-minute song about the yeah and you know a bunch of guys your age are running around going it's genius I'm like no it's not right it's not no I agree with you I agree with you but but okay so now the Beatles that's a whole other ball of wax no now you gotta you bet
Guest:So how did the Dylan book do?
Guest:Good?
Guest:Yeah, it did okay.
Guest:Not too bad.
Guest:It's still selling, believe it or not, all these years later.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:The Beatles book changed my life.
Marc:That thing's bigger than the Bible.
Guest:Yeah, it really is.
Guest:When I delivered it, and people don't know this, they always say, oh, you wrote a 900-page book.
Guest:Oh, no, I wrote a 2,800-page book.
Guest:We cut 1,700 pages of great stories out of that book.
Guest:The Beatles, the biography it's called.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:But you did another book about Woodstock before that?
Guest:Yes, it's called Barefoot in Babylon.
Marc:Yeah, and that's what, you just break it down?
Guest:What I did was, right before the 10th anniversary, I hired a private investigator.
Guest:We found everybody who put it together, and we retold the story as if it were happening just now.
Guest:Unwilling to give their names?
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:Everybody put their name on it.
Guest:It was a freak show.
Guest:It was great.
Marc:I think it's funny that like, you know, in the Zeppelin book, there was a conscious choice on behalf of Peter Grant not to put them in that festival.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:He decided.
Marc:Why would I want them just to be another band on that fucking thing?
Marc:He didn't want to go up against them.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So then how do you decide to take on the Beatles?
Guest:Again, you know, I read it.
Guest:And you love them.
Guest:There were like 150 Beatles books written before mine.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I read them all and I just felt like there's something wrong here.
Guest:So I went to Paul.
Guest:What?
Guest:What do you think was wrong?
Guest:Well, I found out through Paul.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he said when we were kids, we told Hunter Davies, our quote unquote biographer, a story and 50% of it we just made up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we have told those stories so often.
Guest:We made them up to spare our wives and our girlfriends and our families some of the grittier parts of the story.
Marc:It's so funny because when I interviewed Paul, you're talking about a guy that has a public personality since he was 18, 19.
Guest:Oh, 15, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that's interesting that they were that conscious of personal narrative to just manufacture that.
Guest:Exactly right.
Guest:And they knew how to do it.
Guest:And so I said, he was just about to be 60.
Guest:I said, you want this to be your legacy?
Guest:50% untrue?
Guest:And he went, no.
Guest:He said, it's time to tell the real story.
Guest:I said, I want to tell the real story.
Guest:And so he allowed me to talk to everybody who for 30 years was told, if you talk about us, you're out of the circle.
Guest:family members, friends, colleagues.
Guest:They were that insulated?
Guest:Boy, they had a clamp on everything.
Guest:Well, what was the concern?
Guest:The concern was it's none of anybody else's business.
Guest:Yeah, but what are the stories that they were protecting?
Guest:Drug addiction?
Guest:What?
Guest:It wasn't even that.
Guest:They wanted to control their brand the same way that Julia Child's family did.
Guest:wants to control their brand.
Guest:And so they get huffy about it.
Guest:And so I would call Paul's cousins and his aunts and uncles, and they'd say, oh, we can't talk to you.
Marc:It's funny, the difference between that idea and knowing that.
Marc:I mean, that was an offshoot of even something that Wes Farrell would do, was that you create these guys, and you create the story, and you push the story.
Guest:And you stick to it.
Marc:And don't let them talk too much.
Marc:Right, exactly.
Marc:But then when you talk about someone like Dylan's brand, his brand is just keep him guessing.
Marc:So everything's slippery.
Marc:You don't know what the fuck is real.
Marc:And then he has personal control over that because he is the magician.
Guest:He is the wizard.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But this is different.
Guest:This is different.
Guest:And so I would call Paul's relatives and his friends and they said, oh, we can't talk to you.
Guest:I'd say, call Paul.
Guest:They'd call me back and they'd say,
Guest:I can't believe this.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And boy, they had waited 40 years to tell the Beatles stories and tell them they did.
Guest:I couldn't.
Guest:It was like the heavens opened up and a hurricane of facts and stories unleashed.
Guest:And George is still alive.
Guest:George was still alive.
Guest:I talked to him weeks before he died.
Guest:And I knew John from the Elton John story.
Marc:period because they were buddies because I find it interesting that even now you know that Paul is you know he's old and he's cheeky and he's you know he there was a moment on that the Rick Rubin thing you know where it really does seem that he is still sort of
Marc:trying to understand things about his relationship with John.
Marc:Absolutely right.
Marc:And that, like, you know, the thing he said on the Rick Rubin thing about how he was able to now understand the trauma that John went through and how that impacted his personality.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And, like, in just being British, you know, you don't have those conversations.
Guest:You don't at all.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Certainly not in that era.
Marc:And it's taken this long for him to integrate that stuff.
Marc:Where was he with that stuff when you talk?
Guest:Oh, still trying to work it out.
Guest:In fact, one of the first questions I asked him, I went to interview him first before this whole book started for the New York Times.
Guest:They sent me to do an interview with Paul when one of his umpteen albums was coming out.
Guest:And the first question I said to him is, where are you when you think about John?
Guest:Tell me how you think about him.
Guest:And he couldn't.
Guest:I mean, it caught him off guard.
Guest:Because I think Paul is still trying to figure out that relationship even to this day.
Guest:When they were kids, when they were young, he looked up to John because it was John's band.
Guest:It wasn't Paul's band.
Guest:But he loved what they did together.
Guest:These were guys who sat down every day like businessmen.
Guest:They both put glasses on.
Guest:They blocked out the outer world.
Guest:You could not penetrate their little enclave.
Guest:And they wrote music.
Guest:And they, as Paul has always said, we played into each other's eyeballs, eye to eye.
Guest:And that's what they did every day.
Guest:Guys who were on the Dick Clark caravan and on the Beatles buses, like Tommy James and those people, they said to me, we'd go back to the back of the bus where John and Paul were sitting and we'd say, you guys want to come play cards with them?
Guest:Get the fuck out of here.
Guest:We're working.
Guest:Those guys work.
Guest:They worked like businessmen to write those songs.
Marc:But I think they also, it seems like they were, you know, they had a healthy competitive element between them.
Marc:And I think they really, really loved each other and were constantly fascinated with each other's, you know, talents.
Guest:It was until, you know, it was always John's band, but at a certain point, it became Paul's band.
Guest:And when it became Paul's band, John became resentful.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:When was that?
Guest:I would say after the, maybe around Rubber Soul, Revolver.
Guest:Yeah, because Paul took over the productions practically.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:You know, he would call the shots with George Martin.
Guest:He would do the arrangements.
Guest:You could see on that Rick Rubin show how Paul would put his hands on the board.
Guest:He really knows what he's doing in the studio.
Marc:Yeah, well, there's always that thing about, like, you know, John being the raw goods.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And Paul being the... Swick.
Marc:Swick.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you can hear that in the different songs.
Marc:And I've listened to some of the John Solo stuff recently.
Marc:Did you watch that stuff from the Yoko doc?
Marc:I have seen it.
Marc:You know, where there's a moment, what is it, Above Us Only Sky?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But there's a bit where he has George come over to play, and it's just John on the piano, and he's just looking at George, and without saying anything, George was like, there was just this weird thing.
Marc:They weren't even together that long, but to have that type of understanding, where this one-mindedness with George, it was beautiful.
Guest:It was a second part.
Guest:Led Zeppelin had that exact same thing.
Guest:I mean, the very first time that all four of those guys got into the studio, they didn't know each other.
Guest:Robert and Bonzo had never met John Paul.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they're in the studio and they start to play.
Guest:They start to jam.
Guest:And at the end of the first number, they all break out laughing because they know it's right there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They had been waiting for this.
Guest:Jimmy had been waiting for a band like this all his life.
Guest:Bonzo had been in 15 bands.
Guest:He would always fly the coop at the end because he couldn't stand playing with any of these hacks.
Marc:Well, you also, yeah, you said like in the book that he was also like oven to himself and incredibly loud.
Marc:And at the time, like, you know, whether he was getting fired or whether he was just too much for the band.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know, personality wise or sound wise, he just couldn't find a fit.
Marc:But then the music started to change.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And, you know, and things started to level off.
Guest:Well, Bonzo would always play with these bands in the Midlands and they couldn't come back the second night because the owners said, you got to get rid of the drummers too loud.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So, like, in the arc of, we're coming around to Zeppelin, but in the arc of, like, you know, with the Beatles, again, the same question that, you know, after going through the entire, you know, whatever you got from Ringo and the families and the little bit from George and all of that from Paul, you know, what did you come away with that you didn't have before?
Guest:Here's what I came away with, Mark.
Guest:I realized I was writing the story of my life.
Marc:oh interesting yeah it was about me it's about all of us where we came from how the culture grew up around us it all came through the beatles it's weird even my generation in a way like i'm 58 and everything we got was second it was already done like so much of the music i got was done yeah because it came from the beatles and dylan and it all sprung those are those are i was in high school in 81
Marc:So everything was all the time, and it was disco and new wave and punk was happening.
Marc:Well, Zeppelin was already gone in 81.
Marc:No, I know, but it was like, well, right, I graduated in 81, because into the outdoor.
Marc:But it was already embedded.
Marc:The Beatles were like Christmas music.
Guest:The Pantheon was there.
Marc:Right, the Pantheon is indestructible.
Marc:I guess it's destroyed now in a way.
Marc:But before we get to Zeppelin.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Marc:What's with the cooking?
Guest:What's with the cooking?
Guest:So you do a whole book on European cooking schools?
Guest:Oh, yes.
Guest:You know about that.
Guest:Yes, it's called The Saucier's Apprentice.
Guest:Here's what happened.
Guest:After the Beatles, I was... You're like, enough music, I want to eat?
Guest:No, I was...
Guest:My marriage had fallen apart.
Guest:Sorry.
Guest:I had moved out of New York, which was my favorite city in the world.
Guest:It was part of my soul.
Guest:And I'm stranded here with my lovely daughter, who was 11 years old.
Guest:In L.A.?
Guest:In New York.
Guest:We had moved to Connecticut.
Guest:I was out of it.
Guest:And I just thought, I got to get away.
Guest:I had been working on it.
Guest:The Beatles took eight and a half years to write.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:I mean, it was a whole lifetime.
Guest:How long did Dylan take?
Guest:I was broke.
Guest:Dylan took like four years.
Guest:But I was broke.
Guest:The marriage was gone.
Guest:I did whatever anybody in that right mind, and I had just turned 50.
Guest:I ran away to Europe to learn how to cook.
Guest:I went to 16 cooking schools in France and Italy.
Guest:This is the midlife crisis.
Guest:This is what's going to stop you from falling into a pit of darkness.
Guest:Well, it wasn't quite a midlife crisis because I paid a lot of money for that book.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Oh, so it wasn't you just wanted to learn how to cook.
Marc:You got a deal.
Guest:Oh, I got a deal.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:My agent called it a perspective adventure.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:So it was a lifesaver.
Guest:It was.
Guest:And I learned how to breathe again.
Guest:And I learned how to cook.
Guest:I mean, I really learned how to cook.
Guest:And when I got back, I knew I had to write Julia Child's biography.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Because you were so excited about what was it that like?
Marc:OK, so not unlike, you know, knowing how the sausage is made in the music business, which you learned early on.
Marc:I imagine that, you know, sort of, you know, understanding all the levels of food preparation, you know, and this is before the world of foodies.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:that you realize there are nuances and levels and different schools of thought just around mushrooms.
Marc:So you were able to approach someone like Julia Child with this as the foundation.
Guest:Well, actually, I had met Julia Child years before I started The Beatles.
Guest:I was a journalist and I was in Italy and I got a call from the Italian tourist board and they said, we hear you're over there working.
Guest:Do you have a little spare time to help us out?
Guest:And I said, sure.
Guest:They said, would you like to be an escort for an older woman?
Guest:And I went, I don't do that kind of work.
Guest:I'm sorry.
Guest:They said, it's Julia Child.
Guest:And I said...
Guest:I'll be right over.
Guest:Where is she?
Guest:Julia wanted to travel through Italy.
Guest:And she was 80 years old.
Guest:Her legs were given out and she needed a young guy to, I was 40 something.
Guest:And she needed a young guy to hold on to.
Guest:And so for a month, she and I did nothing but eat and talk.
Guest:And I ran a tape recorder.
Guest:And so when we got back, I said, Julia, I want to write your biography.
Guest:So you had all that stuff.
Guest:I did.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I said, I want to write your biography.
Guest:And she said, oh, somebody else is doing it.
Guest:And then I got a letter from her six weeks later and said, but that person is making me feel like I'm already dead.
Guest:So I'd like to talk to you about it.
Guest:But I had just gotten the Beatles book.
Guest:And by the time I was done with that, Julia had died.
Guest:So I decided after that that I would write her biography.
Guest:How'd that one do?
Guest:That is done very well, and the same week that Led Zeppelin launches, my book launches, a documentary of my Julia Child book launches.
Guest:It'll be in the theaters, produced and directed by the same people who did RBG, the same two women who did RBG.
Marc:Oh, that's great.
Guest:Well, that's it.
Guest:It's based on your book.
Guest:It's based on my book.
Marc:Now, that book, I would imagine, is that the bestseller?
Marc:No.
Guest:No, The Beatles is the bestseller.
Guest:Yeah, it continues to... It sent my daughter to college.
Guest:The Beatles.
Marc:So you bought a house with a guitar and the Beatles book sent your daughter to college.
Guest:Yes, isn't that great?
Guest:That's the way it works, pal.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:But you do seem to have a passion for it.
Marc:So after the rock goddess that is Julia Child, now, like... Look, man...
Marc:I love Led Zeppelin, and I know what I know about.
Marc:The thing that fascinates me about this period when they started in Britain is that the UK is a small country, and all these fuckers are around.
Marc:All of them, all the people that come out of Britain are around.
Guest:Not only that, Jimmy Page, Jeff Beck, Eric Clapton, and Glyn Johns all live within one mile of each other as kids.
Guest:Where's Peter Green?
Guest:Something's in the water.
Marc:Where's Peter Green in relation to all of that?
Guest:Peter Green is around, but Peter is already working professionally.
Guest:With Fleetwood.
Marc:Oh, no, no.
Guest:With John Mayle.
Marc:Yeah, John Mayle.
Marc:And he replaced Clapton.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:But okay, so now Zeppelin, like why Zeppelin all of a sudden?
Marc:For you.
Guest:For me?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, my editor called me while I was working on a different book, and he said, I want to make a deal with you to write a book.
Guest:And I said, but you just made a deal.
Guest:I'm doing something else.
Guest:What was it?
Guest:It was Ronald Reagan.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:And he said, no, no.
Guest:Why did you do Ronald Reagan?
Guest:After the Beatles and after Julia Child, my wife, who is the best writer in the family, she's a nonfiction writer, sat down with me and she said, you got to do something else as important.
Guest:And we went through everybody.
Guest:Like, who could I do?
Guest:We looked at all the Kennedy Center honorees and the Medal of Honor winners, and they all had to satisfy one criteria, and that is all my books were about two things, someone who was beloved and someone who has changed the culture.
Guest:And we couldn't find anybody else who fit that bill.
Guest:I mean, we looked for months, and finally she said to me, what about Ronald Reagan?
Guest:And I went...
Guest:No way.
Guest:I didn't vote for him twice.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I've never voted for a Republican in my life.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But then I started looking at his story and I did the same thing I did with the Beatles and with Dylan.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The books about him, I thought, were either policy wonk books.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This is a guy who was a Hollywood movie star.
Guest:He was the sportscaster in the Midwest.
Guest:He was the voice of the Midwest.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:He was a governor and a president, and I wanted to find out why.
Guest:And Nancy Reagan, for some reason, allowed me to be the first person ever to see all of his private papers.
Guest:Not the ones that are in the Reagan Library.
Guest:The ones that were in his desk that he always referred to.
Guest:And they hadn't been unpacked since he left the Oval Office.
Marc:Yeah, were they impressive or...
Guest:No, not really.
Guest:What they were was, and this is so odd, where he got most of his ideas from was Reader's Digest.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:He read these heartfelt stories and he would underline them and annotate them.
Marc:Well, that was his gift to tap into this sort of mundane emotional reality of the culture that he was trying to define.
Guest:And I have now lost every Republican reader for my Zeppelin book because of you.
Guest:Not really.
Guest:No, I'm just kidding.
Guest:So during that, so the Reagan thing, then the agent tells you that what?
Guest:He said, I want you to do the book that I have always dreamed about.
Guest:It's about a band that has sold more records than anybody but the Beatles.
Guest:And I thought, who could that be?
Guest:I said, it's not the Stones and certainly not the who.
Guest:Elvis?
Guest:No, no way.
Guest:Pink Floyd?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and then I thought, oh, God, he wants me to write about ABBA.
Guest:I can't do that.
Guest:He said, no, it's Led Zeppelin.
Guest:And I have to tell you, my heart sunk, and here's why.
Guest:I had 20,000 vinyl albums in my collection and not a single Led Zeppelin album.
Guest:What the fuck is wrong with you?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, if you would ask me what songs they sang, I might have been able to name Whole Lotta Love and Stairway, and that's it.
Guest:You have 20,000 records now?
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:What are you doing with them?
Guest:I listen to them.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, that's my life there.
Guest:Those are my babies.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where are they?
Guest:New York?
Guest:They're in New York.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I went and I thought, they changed the culture.
Guest:So what you're telling me is you weren't a Zeppelin fan.
Guest:No, I was on the road with Bruce and Elton during that time.
Marc:Well, I know also that they happened a little older though.
Marc:Like they were like, I guess, well, that's not true.
Marc:No, they were right there.
Guest:They were right there.
Guest:So I felt I was the perfect person to write their book because I was this empty vessel and I went in there not knowing anything and I let them fill me up for months.
Guest:I did nothing but listen to their music as a musician.
Marc:For the first time at your age, you're sort of like taking on Zeppelin.
Guest:With my background.
Guest:Did you love it?
Guest:I loved it.
Guest:And not only that, I would get guys, you know, you want to hear about Bonzo?
Guest:I got Carmine Apice, who was the drummer from Vanilla Fudge, to sit with me and explain what Bonzo's doing.
Guest:Jimmy Page, you get Jeff Beck to explain to you.
Guest:You know, I mean, I'm a guitar player, so I could understand it.
Guest:Terry Reid, you know, you want to know why they hired Robert?
Guest:Terry Reid told me the whole story about how Robert became.
Marc:Terry Reid was sort of like, I got my own thing going.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But he claims it like, you know, he's okay with that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But he wasn't the lead singer of Led Zeppelin, of course.
Guest:But, I mean, nobody had ever really heard the real story of how Robert became the singer.
Guest:And Terry laid it out for me.
Guest:And that's the thing about the book.
Guest:You were behind the scenes in every single step of Led Zeppelin's career.
Guest:I talked to everybody who was involved with them.
Guest:Everybody.
Marc:Like some of the, like, who do you like talking to the most?
Marc:Who was surprising?
Guest:Glenn Johns was terrific.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was unbelievable.
Guest:The producer.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I mean, Glenn was Jimmy's boyhood buddy.
Guest:He sat there.
Guest:But there was a guy named Roger Mayer.
Guest:Roger was a scientist.
Guest:Who was Roger Mayer?
Guest:He invented, at Jimmy's request, the fuzz box so you could play fuzz guitar.
Guest:And he went on to do it for Jimi Hendrix and for Stevie Wonder.
Guest:And these were kids.
Guest:They were at 17 years old sitting around Jimmy's living room.
Guest:Sunday afternoon, Jimmy would sit there with Jeff Beck, Roger Mayer, who had the fuzz box, and every once in a while, you know, Eric would drop in.
Guest:I mean, this is insane.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I found Jimmy's old bands that all the bandmates he'd play with.
Marc:The fuzz box, did that become a brand?
Marc:Was that a Big Muff?
Marc:Yeah, it was a monster.
Marc:Which brand?
Marc:Everybody.
Marc:What was it, Big Muff?
Marc:What was the name of the box?
Guest:It was called the Fuzz Box.
Guest:The Fuzz Box.
Guest:Yeah, the Fuzz Box.
Guest:And everybody used it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Everybody.
Guest:The Beatles used it.
Guest:You know, everyone did.
Guest:So, you know, there were, I mean, it was just, I talked to all the management people and the roadies.
Marc:So these guys are like, you know, like Jimmy was kicking around, right?
Marc:He was like, he was sort of, was he a prodigy or just an efficient guitar player?
Guest:Jimmy was a prodigy.
Guest:I mean, and everybody knew it.
Guest:And then he became a session player at the age of 18.
Guest:Glyn Johns gave him his first session work because Glyn had no idea what to do with his life and became an engineer.
Guest:Then he hired Jimmy, his boyhood pal.
Guest:All of a sudden, Jimmy is the most important guitarist on the British recording scene because he's not only playing behind...
Guest:He played on the early Who's records, on the Kinks records.
Marc:One of my favorite Jimmy solos is on that Joe Cocker record.
Marc:With A Little Help.
Marc:No, on Bye Bye Blackbird.
Marc:Bye Bye Blackbird as well.
Marc:Holy shit.
Marc:You bet.
Marc:That fucking thing.
Guest:But he also played on like Burt Bacharach sessions.
Guest:He did Goldfinger with Shirley Basie.
Guest:I mean, you know, and John Paul was on that session as well.
Marc:John Paul, another guy, just a sort of a chameleon in terms of, you know, what he's able to do.
Guest:Glenn Johns told me when he heard that John Paul was going to be in Led Zeppelin, he knew the band would be great because he said, this is what he said to me, that guy is a genius musician.
Guest:He can play anything and be anyone to anybody.
Guest:And he knew it.
Guest:So there was the kernel of the band.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So, well, there, but, but what, how did it?
Marc:So Jimmy was already in the Yardbirds.
Marc:He had just joined the Yardbirds.
Marc:After the session work.
Guest:Yes, and that is one of the best stories in the book.
Guest:And you know where it came from?
Guest:My buddy, my dearest friend, Graham Nash.
Guest:Graham was there that night that Jimmy decided to join the Yardbirds because the Yardbirds were- He was in the Hollies, right?
Guest:He was playing with the Hollies.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they were playing at an Oxford hoity-toity graduation ball.
Guest:The Hollies were.
Guest:And the Yardbirds.
Guest:And the Yardbirds got so drunk, falling down dead drunk.
Guest:Jimmy was sitting in the audience with Jeff Beck and said, this is the greatest thing I've ever seen.
Guest:I want to be part of this.
Guest:And the band fell apart that night after...
Guest:They were about to disband when Jimmy said, I'll play with you.
Guest:It'll be like two guitars, Jeff Beck and Jimmy Page with the Yardbirds, man.
Marc:They only did like one record though, right?
Guest:Two of them?
Guest:They did one record and they also went on a Dick Clark caravan tour.
Guest:It was a nightmare because I think Jeff Beck is the greatest guitarist of all time.
Guest:I know, but I can't listen to him that much.
Guest:Well, he's a head case, you see.
Guest:And he never showed up for gigs.
Guest:After that fell apart and he joined with Carmine Apiece and Beck Bogard Apiece, Carmine told me we had this huge tour after the album came out.
Guest:Jeff did two or three dates and decided he wasn't going to play anymore.
Guest:I like the Jeff Beck group record, Truth.
Guest:Truth, to me, is one of the most important albums of the 60s.
Guest:Probably, yeah.
Marc:Because it changes everything.
Marc:I like the way he plays, but I don't find myself listening to him.
Marc:Billy Gibbons told me a funny story, the ZZ Top, because they opened for Hendrix when Hendrix took Texas.
Marc:And he said that he went over to the hotel where Hendrix was staying, and Hendrix had had a full sort of stereo console set up in his bedroom.
Marc:And Billy went over there, he says, and Hendrix was like, let's go figure out what Jeff Beck is doing.
Marc:Right, exactly.
Guest:Well, I'll tell you a great story.
Guest:It's in my book.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Terry Reid said he was sitting in a bar in the two eyes.
Guest:No, it was the bag of nails in the UK.
Guest:And he sees this guy and he said, oh, I know this guy.
Guest:I met him in the United States.
Guest:It's Jimmy.
Guest:He walks over and Jimmy, he said, what are you doing here, Jimmy?
Guest:He goes, I'm going to play tonight, man.
Guest:I'm going to play here.
Guest:It'll be fun.
Guest:You'll see.
Guest:All of a sudden, the doors open, and who comes to watch this guy play?
Guest:Pete Townsend, Jeff Beck.
Guest:Terry Reid told you this story?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think he told me this story.
Guest:Go ahead.
Guest:Paul McCartney.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Everybody is there.
Guest:Clapton.
Guest:Clapton.
Guest:Jimmy Page couldn't make it.
Marc:Brian Jones is in the story.
Guest:Brian Jones is there.
Guest:Everybody, and they're all sitting in the front row.
Guest:But Jimmy says to Terry Reid, he said, I'm going to play tonight.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:No, he's on stage and he says, I'm going to play a little song tonight that's all dear to your hearts.
Guest:And it's now number one on the charts.
Guest:And everybody's going, number one, what could it be?
Guest:What's he going to play?
Guest:And then you hear wrong.
Guest:And he goes into wild thing.
Guest:And Terry Reid said, we all hated that song.
Guest:We loathed it.
Guest:And all of a sudden, Jimmy turns it into the greatest rock and roll song that you've ever heard.
Marc:The song that Terry Reid told me was like he was at the bar.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And Brian Jones came up to the bar.
Marc:I think it was Brian Jones that said, like, I had to get out.
Marc:I was up front.
Marc:I had to leave because of the flooding.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Everyone's crying.
Guest:Yeah, all the guitar players are crying.
Guest:Yeah, the stories in my book told from about 10 different people who were there that time.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In the Zeppelin book.
Guest:In the Zeppelin book, yeah.
Guest:And why do you set that up?
Guest:Because it's a touchstone, it's a turning point of rock and roll, what's going on in the 60s.
Guest:You know, what was going on was first, you know, they were all in these little bands that played skiffle.
Guest:And then the Beatles start.
Guest:And then the Yardbirds and the Stones were playing blues.
Guest:And so it's an amalgam of everything.
Guest:I had to go back to the beginning to show you what was going on in the UK.
Guest:So that you'd understand what was happening by the time Jimmy puts Led Zeppelin together.
Guest:So you have to go back to the beginning.
Guest:I always believe in every book I've ever written that you don't know who someone is until you know where they come from.
Marc:No, absolutely.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And that's why I always go back to what are the roots?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And so not only do we see the Jimi Hendrix, Terry Reid at the bar, but also there's a scene in there that nobody's ever heard before.
Guest:And it's a night in a little dingy trap in Ealing, which is right outside of one in northern London.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In a bar where a guy named Elmo Lewis has come to play.
Guest:Now, Elmo Lewis is really Brian Jones.
Guest:And he's playing with Paul Jones, who is the harmonica player, but the lead singer for Manford Mann.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they're playing blues.
Guest:And there's two guys standing at the bar watching this.
Guest:And those two guys are Mick and Keith.
Guest:And that's the night they meet Brian Jones.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And I had five different people who were there that night tell me the story.
Guest:So I thought to set the stage for Led Zeppelin, you have to go back to the beginning of all of this.
Guest:And that's why the book's so long.
Marc:But I think the important thing about capturing what was going on at that time where everybody was sort of like, you know, that it was active growth on everyone's part.
Marc:You know, because like, you know, Terry Reid's doing his own weird kind of world music.
Marc:You know, he's like, you know, lost in this whole other zone of sort of what is a kind of rock folk weird shit, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then also there's Fairport Convention, which is either Richard Thompson or folky.
Marc:And then there's also those kind of like old school belters, you know, like Tom Jones and that, that, that school of a British, uh, Frank, Frank, I feel the same soul music, British soul music.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And then you've got the, the, the blue stalwarts, uh, like, uh, with, with Mayall and then the guys, all the guys that come out of Mayall, right.
Marc:You know, who are now going, you know, full on, you know, blowing it up with like, you know, Clapton when he finally got hold of that Les Paul and, and did, uh, you know, that, that Beano record is like, that's fabulous.
Marc:That's the last good Clapton record.
Marc:You bet.
Guest:And then, you know, it's everybody who came out of the Yardbirds, too.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Guest:I mean, everybody, you know, Jeff Beck and Jimmy.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But I see what you're getting at, you know, in terms, even with Skiffle, that, you know, like, and even with Roy Harper, that there was, all this stuff was going on, and Jimmy's like, we're going to wrangle it all together.
Marc:You bet.
Yeah.
Guest:And he ropes in folk music.
Guest:He brings in the blues.
Guest:For sure.
Guest:He brings in traditional.
Guest:And he brings in shit-kicking rock and roll.
Marc:Well, then he kind of is at the forefront of riff-driven rock.
Marc:You bet.
Marc:That he kind of... That was...
Marc:Like, I mean, that's pre-Sabbath, right?
Guest:Oh, pre-Sabbath.
Guest:Jimmy had a sound in his head that nobody else had.
Guest:And he wanted to get that sound out.
Guest:And that's why it took him so long to put that band together.
Guest:But when he did, he controlled the sound because it was in his head for years.
Guest:And nobody else had this sound.
Guest:This is the beginning.
Guest:And what you hear on Zeppelin I is it.
Guest:Or was it Zeppelin II?
Guest:I think Zeppelin II, really.
Guest:You hear it on Zeppelin II.
Guest:But it's the beginning of Stadium Rock.
Guest:Yeah, but they didn't know that.
Guest:Oh, of course not.
Guest:Of course not.
Guest:But it's there.
Guest:All the kernels are there.
Guest:And, you know, if you say Led Zeppelin changed the culture, they changed the culture.
Guest:You know, they really did.
Guest:It was the end of the 60s.
Guest:That ethos is gone.
Guest:Peace and love is finished.
Guest:Altamont had happened.
Guest:And...
Guest:They were ready for a new sound.
Guest:And, you know, the epigraph of my book is it's a strange one.
Guest:First, there's a quote from John Landau, Bruce's manager, who was a rock critic at the time.
Guest:And he says, this will pass.
Guest:All this greed and avaricious loud noise will pass.
Guest:And it's a review of Led Zeppelin's first gig.
Guest:And under it, Jimmy says, fuck the 60s.
Guest:We're going to chart the new decade.
Guest:He was leaving all of those guys behind.
Guest:He did not care.
Guest:He wanted a new sound and he was going to spark it.
Marc:Well, they did.
Marc:They did.
Marc:But, you know, it's interesting that it's only really five records, isn't it?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Four or five.
Guest:It's like any band other than the Beatles.
Guest:Any band only has four or five great records.
Marc:But they were that era of rock...
Marc:They invented this thing.
Marc:I mean, in the sense that it was always there, this sort of like Hank Williams, all of them, Jerry Lee Lewis, everyone, there were a lot of fuck-ups all the time.
Marc:But with the money that Zeppelin had and how they used it and how they showed it off and what they allowed themselves to get involved, the decadence of it was new.
Marc:And here's why.
Guest:Before this, it was always Wade Rock.
Guest:It became cocaine rock.
Guest:And that's what changed it.
Guest:And dope.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that really changed it in a big way.
Guest:That's what, you know, it opened up a can of worms and then- But it let them drink more.
Guest:It did.
Marc:It did.
Marc:I mean, that was really the thing about Coke for guys like Bonneman, for people who were boozers, is that with Coke, I mean, most people talk about Coke as being the thing that ruined production sound in the 80s.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But I think that what Coke enabled the 70s to do when it first came around was you could stay up and get fucked up for longer and do weirder shit.
Guest:They stayed up for weeks.
Guest:There were times Jimmy said, oh, I haven't slept in two weeks.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or he would go into the studio and come out two days later without having slept just to produce something.
Guest:right so so that's yeah so that's what this zeppelin three and four uh zeppelin three four and and houses and houses yeah really yep when did he get involved with dope right after that oh okay yeah and and and it had to come down yeah he needed some sleep right
Guest:And it got really dangerous because there's a scene in the book where they're about to play the Silver Dome, and they go to get Jimmy in his room, and Jimmy is gone.
Guest:I mean, he is practically in a coma.
Guest:They slapped him.
Guest:They threw cold water on him.
Guest:They walked him around the room.
Guest:They couldn't get him up.
Guest:And, you know, he barely made it.
Guest:And yet his eyes blinked open at a certain point.
Guest:He goes out and he plays the three-hour gig.
Guest:I've seen that happen with junkies.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, there were definitely shows in that time where he was so emaciated and he looked so lean and weird and thin.
Yeah.
Marc:But in terms of... And he got sloppy, too.
Guest:I mean... He was always on purpose sloppy, but you're saying he got real sloppy?
Guest:Oh, he got real... There were times... Playing-wise?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:There were times he's got the double neck guitar, and he's cording on one neck, but strumming on the other neck.
Guest:And he didn't know that he was doing it.
Guest:Oh, that's sad.
Guest:That's funny.
Guest:He was totally happy.
Marc:Well, I mean, he sort of mastered this thing.
Marc:Like, when I listen to...
Marc:to to to page as a guitar player it's interesting because there's always a a weird kind of um swappiness and distortion to it that that i have to assume was intentional yes and it's what gives them a garage band sound which is great oh yeah that's what we always want out of rock and roll
Marc:I don't know, the records I go back to the most are Houses probably.
Marc:I go back to Houses of the Holy.
Guest:Houses is fabulous.
Guest:I'm a presence guy myself to tell you.
Marc:Oh yeah, I almost listened to that today.
Guest:I loved it because they recorded it in 12 days.
Guest:That's the way rock and roll should be made.
Guest:The Beatles would go in the studio and they would massage everything.
Guest:But they wouldn't... How fucked up is Jimmy on presents, though?
Marc:Oh, very, very.
Marc:Because it sounds like the production seems like it's done in a storage container.
Marc:Am I wrong?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, he was out of it for most of it.
Guest:And then, boom, you know, he blinks awake.
Guest:He comes down and they cut it quickly, you know, really fast.
Marc:Well, tell me a little bit about like, you know, because throughout the book, I mean, really, you know, when you talk about Zeppelin, you know, the mastermind outside of the music was Peter Grant, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yes and no.
Marc:He was the road manager?
Marc:He was the manager.
Marc:But there's just these stories.
Marc:I talked to, I think it was Neil Preston, the photographer.
Marc:I know Neil, yeah.
Marc:Who took that picture from the helicopter of the Zeppelin concert for Peter Grant, who brought it to NASA to have them use their technology to figure out how many people were actually at that concert.
Guest:Because he was getting paid by the head.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:I fucking love that story.
Guest:Oh, he did that all the time.
Guest:I mean, he stood by that band.
Guest:He was a manager.
Guest:You know, managers, they have a road manager, and they let the road manager handle everything.
Guest:Yeah, like bathrooms and food and hotels.
Guest:Right, and the manager's in the office and picks up the check.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Peter Grant never left their side.
Guest:He was on every tour.
Guest:He made sure he was backstage.
Guest:Isn't that who Tony Henge is based on from Spinal Tap?
Guest:Yes, it is.
Guest:And of course, that last concert they ever did in America with Bill Graham, that is Spinal Tap because Bill built all kinds of stone pillars and everything.
Guest:Whoever saw that decided that's the way they would do the Spinal Tap parody.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But Peter was, he's dead, right, Peter Grant?
Marc:He is, yes.
Guest:And he didn't go to heaven.
Marc:He went somewhere else.
Marc:Well, I mean, what is the myth around him?
Marc:I mean, did the band get along with him all the way through?
Guest:They loved him.
Guest:They loved Peter Grant.
Guest:But it was Peter who really introduced the band to Coke.
Guest:And it was Peter who always had a two-pound bag of Coke.
Guest:That's a lot.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:But that is a modest amount for what they had on those tours.
Guest:You know, they had so much money, they didn't know what to do with it.
Guest:And so a lot of it was just spent on drugs.
Marc:Now, how did the band start to ... What was happening within the band in terms of the unit between Page and Plant?
Marc:When did things become strained?
Marc:Who was it strained between?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, again, it had always been Jimmy's band.
Guest:Robert was a 19-year-old kid when he joins.
Guest:He has no confidence whatsoever.
Guest:Was he a blues singer?
Guest:He was a blues singer, but then he got into Haight-Ashbury type of stuff, Moby Grape and things like that.
Guest:It's a good band.
Guest:Yeah, and Love.
Guest:Really good bands.
Guest:So Robert comes in as a total novice.
Guest:Not only does he see this guy who was an amazing studio musician, but...
Guest:jimmy had a lot of wealth he owned a house that was on the thames it was a houseboat he had a gorgeous american girlfriend yeah he had umpteen guitars robert was broke yeah and so you know everything was robert had no confidence through the first two albums all of a sudden robert robert realizes he's bringing a lot to this band on three yeah exactly
Guest:And he's starting to write.
Guest:Jimmy's starting to look to him to produce great lyrics.
Guest:And as that develops, it's the same thing that happens in every band.
Guest:They grow up and they grow apart.
Guest:These guys are kids when they start.
Guest:All of a sudden, they're 29-year-old men.
Guest:And they've been together too long.
Guest:They know everybody's foibles.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it started with them, I would say, I guess when Jimmy got into heroin.
Guest:After Houses?
Guest:Yeah, Robert checked out.
Guest:He just checked out.
Guest:And then, of course, when his son dies, Robert starts to blame everything on this band.
Guest:Really?
Guest:He was in a terrible car accident with his wife where she almost died and his kids had a broken arm and a broken leg.
Guest:Robert starts to feel that there's some bad mojo and he's starting to blame it on the way Jimmy behaves, the pace of the band.
Guest:Do you talk about the Crowley shit?
Guest:And the Crowley shit.
Guest:Boy.
Guest:And now we should talk about that because Aleister Crowley, Jimmy starts to read Aleister Crowley's book.
Guest:Was he alive?
Guest:No, he was dead.
Guest:He was dead.
Guest:And he is, in one word, an occultist.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law is a wonderful thing for an 11-year-old boy to hear.
Guest:You know, Jimmy reads this when he's 11 and thinks, this guy is saying, I can do whatever I want in my life.
Guest:In fact, Jimmy had that inscribed on the run out around the second album.
Guest:No, I have one of those.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And nobody knew what it meant, but it's from Alistair Crowley.
Guest:Crowley, though, was a nut job.
Guest:I mean, it was all about sex.
Marc:It was all- It was ritualistic witchcraft.
Marc:You bet.
Marc:Like a primer on the full arc of ritualistic witchcraft.
Guest:To the extent that he said we could sacrifice a young boy on the altar, which would be the ultimate.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Jimmy read this stuff and had to be a part of it.
Guest:So he eventually- At 11?
Guest:He was intrigued at 11, the same way I was intrigued with the Hardy Boys.
Guest:Sure, yeah.
Guest:But as he grows up, Jimmy starts to have whips and chains in his suitcase and handcuffs on the tours.
Guest:For the ladies?
Guest:Yeah, and this is early with the Yardbirds.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay, so he's... And he's reading Crowley.
Guest:The dark arts guy.
Guest:He's getting deeper into it.
Guest:When he gets some money, he buys Crowley's house.
Guest:He buys Crowley's robes.
Guest:He has Crowley's original sets of books.
Guest:He has his tarot cards.
Guest:I mean, he was really into this.
Guest:And so he was doing ritual.
Guest:He was.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was.
Guest:And that also turned Robert away from him.
Marc:Well, I mean, that would...
Marc:What I'm saying is that if Robert's more of a folk-minded person, a man of the people, and your bandmate is opening up the portals to the dark places, you're going to get paranoid of the mojo release problem.
Marc:Absolutely.
Guest:And Robert knew it was all mumbo-jumbo.
Guest:But until he starts to get freaked out, right?
Guest:He does.
Guest:But Robert's saving grace was he's a smart guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, he was a great student.
Guest:He reads incessantly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he's a thoughtful guy.
Guest:And so it just didn't work.
Guest:It just wasn't working.
Guest:And like the Stones, like with Keith...
Guest:Jimmy always kept everybody waiting.
Guest:They never knew what was going to happen.
Guest:They never knew if he was going to show up for a rehearsal.
Guest:And that pissed Robert off, too.
Marc:And the other two, the rhythm section, I mean, you know, Bonzo's doing his own trip, and, you know, they just deal with it?
Guest:Bonzo is a 28-year-old man with the temperance of a 12-year-old.
Guest:You know, he...
Guest:He was a man out of control.
Guest:He couldn't control himself.
Guest:He fought with his fists all the time.
Guest:He never gave anybody much.
Guest:But, you know, I told you I'd never really listened to Led Zeppelin.
Guest:I put those cans on and I listened to them and Bonzo was the heart and soul of that band.
Marc:I'm fucking on physical graffiti too.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Bonzo, you listen to those drums, they are so sharp and so in control.
Marc:That's a big record.
Marc:That was before Houses, wasn't it?
Marc:It was.
Marc:So they went through all that.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:Wow, man.
Marc:That's a record.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, they went through four, too.
Guest:LZ4.
Guest:Four, and then graffiti, and then houses.
Guest:You bet.
Guest:And the live one.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Pretty amazing, huh?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a great story.
Guest:I really loved writing this.
Marc:Well, you did.
Guest:the bible i did and you know it we all they gave the riot house its name too in in la i mean it was always called the hyatt house before i see it every night i work at the comedy store almost every night right just look at that place yep i mean so they they changed the whole culture of that as well and the whole groupie scene it sure grew up around them yep well congratulations thank you mark thanks it was fun and now like i gotta like you know i read bits and pieces now i gotta go in
Marc:Read the whole book, man.
Marc:It's better that I don't before I talk to you.
Marc:In the same way, it was better for you not to be too into Zeppelin.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:Because I would have been just sort of like, tell the story.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:Thanks for talking.
Guest:It's been a pleasure.
Guest:I've loved it.
Marc:Bob Spitz.
Marc:That was good.
Marc:I hope his daughter's happy.
Marc:Led Zeppelin, the biography, comes out next Tuesday, November 9th.
Marc:You can pre-order it right now wherever you get books.
Marc:Go to podswag.com slash WTF to get our new merch.
Marc:We've got the holiday sweatshirt sweaters.
Marc:They're sweatshirts with sweater patterns on them.
Marc:We've got the new Hawaiian Samian Buster shirt and the bundle packages of some of our old favorites.
Marc:That's podswag.com slash WTF or go to WTF.com
Marc:pod.com and click on the merch tab a french fry tray seriously fish and chips tray and a cup here's some guitar
Yeah.
Thank you.
Guest:guitar solo
Marc:boomer lives monkey in the fonda cat angels everywhere