Episode 1273 - Hasan Minhaj
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what the fuck tuplets what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast it goes on and on
Marc:The podcast keeps going every Monday and Thursday for many, many years.
Marc:WTF podcast established EST period 2009.
Marc:And we go and keep going.
Marc:Always a new show every Monday and Thursday with all different people to talk to.
Marc:What am I doing?
Marc:Why am I talking like this?
Marc:Established, founded, founded in 2009.
Marc:Relax.
Marc:Today I'm going to talk to Hassan Minhaj.
Marc:You know him.
Marc:He's the old Daily Show correspondent.
Marc:He had his own Netflix show, Patriot Act.
Marc:Had a Netflix stand-up special, Homecoming King.
Marc:And right now he's in season two of The Morning Show on Apple TV.
Marc:He's touring.
Marc:But it's interesting to talk to these young guys.
Marc:I start to think about ambition, the nature of ambition, the nature of my own ambition.
Marc:What does my ambition look like?
Marc:Is ambition something that we all have?
Marc:I know one thing, that there is a type of person
Marc:who might be mildly creative or creative enough that is so consumed with ambition that they begin to believe that ambition in and of itself is a point of view, which it is not.
Marc:Ambition is not a point of view.
Marc:I think ambition.
Marc:You know what?
Marc:Let's look it up.
Marc:I'm curious.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:A strong desire to do or to achieve something typically requiring determination and hard work.
Marc:OK, OK, well, I guess I have that, but I don't know that I really think about it in that way.
Marc:I get very myopic in terms of things that I want to do, but I don't I guess it's about the payoff.
Marc:What what is the ambition?
Marc:What is your ambition?
Marc:What is it to win?
Marc:Is it to succeed beyond your wildest dreams?
Marc:Is it to own a jet to have a plane?
Marc:Like I was never really that kind of guy.
Marc:It wasn't even about money or things, because when I think about it,
Marc:It just was about being heard and, you know, getting my my thoughts across my point of view across.
Marc:Yeah, I wanted to succeed, but it was it was vague.
Marc:The markers were not a big house.
Marc:The markers were not a big car.
Marc:The markers were not about winning some competition.
Marc:It was all internal because I've been thinking about a lot lately.
Marc:I talked to Hassan today and next week, I think I'm going to put up a Ricky Velez interview.
Marc:He's another comic.
Marc:And just about the way these guys talk about starting out and what their goals were and thinking back on what mine were and where I am at.
Marc:Obviously, in terms of creating product for the masses and having a certain amount of entertainment business success, you look at someone like Hassan and he's definitely had it.
Marc:And he definitely guns for it.
Marc:And it's definitely what he does in terms of not just comedy, but acting and his own show and also presenting his cultural analysis.
Marc:I mean, these are all things I do.
Marc:And am I comparing myself to him?
Marc:No.
Marc:But I'm just kind of curious as to the drive shaft of ambition and who I was when I was a younger comic.
Marc:But, you know, some people are all about ambition.
Marc:And sometimes ambition, and I've said this before, I believe, like with minimal talent can land you...
Marc:Somewhere close to where you want to go.
Marc:Ultimately, you know, time will tell whether you can do the gig or do the job or show up for it.
Marc:But sometimes just pure ambition is enough for people to to to sort of move through and kind of, you know, if you if you have a an almost an intense or or sort of energetic or furious ambition, you can dupe most people into thinking you've got it.
Marc:That's for sure.
Marc:But with me, like specifically in talking about when I started doing comedy, like I talk about it with Haasen, you know, and I also talked about it with Ricky Velez, which you'll hear next week.
Marc:There was this there.
Marc:They have this drive where they like they want to play the garden.
Marc:You know, they want to crush every time.
Marc:It's about crushing.
Marc:You know, go out there and crush.
Marc:Don't you want to play the garden?
Marc:I don't.
Marc:I never did.
Marc:I never thought about it.
Marc:You know, when I do think about it, I'm like, it's too like what would I you know, it's I can't do what I believe I like to do.
Marc:And even now I'm pulling back from doing theaters that I could sell out to do smaller places so I can do what I do.
Marc:which is connect, which is connect and be one mind.
Marc:It's not about laugh to laugh.
Marc:At some point, I realized that getting laughs in a bing, bing, bing, bing, there was always this rule that hung over all of us.
Marc:You got to get a laugh every 30 seconds.
Marc:There's this unspoken rule.
Marc:Get the laugh every 30 seconds.
Marc:Close big.
Marc:And I know those rules.
Marc:And when I started, you wanted to...
Marc:Kill, you know, you do 10, 15, 10 minute sets, 15 minute sets.
Marc:You want to close big, you want to kill, you want it all the way.
Marc:And I did that work, but like was killing what it was about.
Marc:And I don't think so.
Marc:And I think I've talked about this before.
Marc:I think that most of my ambition, all I knew is I wanted to be a great comic and I don't know what determined that.
Marc:And I'm still not exactly sure what determines that because I'm still not exactly sure that I'm exactly where I need to be.
Marc:I know I'm doing the best work I've ever done and I'm taking chances.
Marc:You know, but what determines being a great comic?
Marc:Is it self-declaration?
Marc:You know, is it someone saying like, you know, I'm the goat?
Marc:Are there moments?
Marc:Are there hours?
Marc:Where, you know, you know who is transcendent.
Marc:I know who is transcendent for me and I know what makes a great comic.
Marc:But for me, it was more the ambition was to to get my thoughts across.
Marc:to express myself fully, and to be seen for who I am.
Marc:Now, I didn't know who I was at the beginning, and I don't think many of us do as comics, but I don't think I knew as a person.
Marc:So it was really building who I was on stage as a comic, and it's taken me as long as it's taken me.
Marc:But for me, it's not about the crush.
Marc:It's about the moments that transcend time and space that you don't see coming, that you don't know that are going to happen.
Marc:Like last night I was on stage at the Comedy Store.
Marc:It was sticking with me, this whole idea of crushing.
Marc:After talking to Hassan and also Ricky and then fucking dealing with...
Marc:Andrew Santino texting and I was like I was at the store the other night and I followed Jesus Trejo and he just like these are young guys and Trejo just fucking killed like and it was just this like groove or you know he just been you know I can hear it I've been doing this for all my life you know just the well-honed jokes the one after the other and you get into that groove
Marc:And it's just like, boom, boom, boom, boom.
Marc:And it's just, it's beautiful to watch.
Marc:It's beautiful to hear.
Marc:And after talking to these guys and then, you know, following Jesus the other night, you know, I had to ask myself, you know, am I, do I do that anymore?
Marc:Can I do that anymore?
Marc:Do I give a shit about that?
Marc:Am I avoiding it?
Marc:Aren't I a comic?
Marc:Aren't I a seasoned veteran?
Marc:Is that what is important?
Marc:Like I'm still I'm at this fucking stage in my goddamn career this many years in and I'm like, do I need to kill more?
Marc:It's all this like thoughtful kind of like.
Marc:You know, social commentary, personal revelation, you know, dark, you know, emotional unpacking of things we we don't like to talk about.
Marc:Is that is that relevant?
Marc:Is that is that am I still doing the comedy?
Marc:Can I still fucking kill or what?
Marc:I do well.
Marc:But do I think about killing?
Marc:Not really.
Marc:I want things to land.
Marc:But man, it got in my head, man.
Marc:It got in my head.
Marc:I'm talking to my friend Kit.
Marc:I'm like, I don't do jokes, man.
Marc:I don't do the joke to joke thing.
Marc:And something happened, boy, last night because, you know, it was stuck in my fucking craw.
Marc:And, you know, and I just like right before I went on in the main room, I fucking put it together in my head like I always do.
Marc:But I'm like, all right, I'm going to fucking crush.
Marc:I'm going to fucking crush.
Marc:I'm going to crush with the jokes that I do with my shit because I can crush.
Marc:and uh i went out there and fucking crushed and uh did it feel good sure it felt good do i need to do it every time i don't think so i like gaps i like to leave room like i even in the middle of crushing and i know i know i'm declaring this and this is like not not trying to prove anything other than to myself that like yes yes i i do know how to crush it was important to me it is not everything but
Marc:Fuck you, I can still crush.
Marc:Like, crush, crush.
Marc:Dumb.
Marc:What am I?
Marc:It's like, see, is this old man shit?
Marc:It's just an old man trying to swing his dick around?
Marc:This crushing business?
Marc:But even in the middle of the crushing, I came up with this beautiful new piece, a new riff, a new beat.
Marc:And it killed.
Marc:And I had to literally stop.
Marc:And I'm going like, oh, my God.
Marc:I never said that before.
Marc:Can I have a second just to enjoy my brain?
Marc:And that's the freedom of my brain.
Marc:In that moment, something came down through it and it was just a beautiful little beat.
Marc:And that's freedom of mind.
Marc:That's free thinking.
Marc:That's untethered.
Marc:That's uncontextualized.
Marc:That's unpimped by the algorithm.
Marc:That's fucking pure creativity.
Marc:Yeah, you might want to make sure you hold on to some of that for yourself.
Marc:Make sure every once in a while something actually comes from your heart and your mind in a moment.
Marc:And it's yours.
Marc:It's fucking yours.
Marc:Crushing.
Marc:Hassan Minhaj is a comedian.
Marc:He was the host of the Patriot Act.
Marc:He was a correspondent on The Daily Show.
Marc:He's now acting in the Apple TV show The Morning Show in its second season.
Marc:And his King's Jester tour dates are available at his website, Hasan Minhaj.com.
Marc:H-A-S-N-M-I-N-H-A-J.com.
Marc:And this is me having a conversation with Hasan.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I mean, you work pretty quick.
Marc:I mean, I don't know where, when you shot that special, you last one.
Marc:That was at the college in Davis.
Marc:That was at Mondavi Center, which is like a big, beautiful, big, beautiful performing arts center.
Marc:Like I perform at the Kennedy Center.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You've probably done that.
Guest:I'm doing that next week.
Marc:Right.
Guest:How is it?
Marc:It's great.
Marc:What, the big room?
Marc:The big room.
Marc:It's great because it's like built for acoustics.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So there's really no distance.
Marc:Sometimes those halls that are really built well, you can do it, you know, and it's an honor.
Marc:It feels exciting.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You've never played there?
Marc:Never played.
Marc:I did Carnegie Hall last year.
Marc:Yeah, I didn't love it.
Marc:A couple years ago.
Marc:You didn't love it.
Marc:I mean, I was happy to be there, but I kind of fucked myself.
Marc:I don't think my hour was as tight as I wanted it to be.
Marc:And I stayed on a really long time.
Marc:And there's something about rooms that are over 2,000.
Marc:I can feel it.
Marc:I have to handle it.
Marc:It's crowd control.
Marc:Well, it's not just crowd control, but you can feel the edges sort of getting away from you.
Marc:Like, is this getting all the way to the back of the room?
Marc:I start to feel like it's not connecting.
Marc:Yeah, I get what you're saying.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, maybe you don't feel that, but I start to feel like this is a lot.
Guest:I'm in the theater shows now and I'll do this a couple times in the act.
Guest:I go, back row, you guys okay?
Guest:Right.
Guest:And a few people are like, why are you doing that?
Guest:I'm like, because when I look at those and you look at the rear proceedings, you see those little tiny exits.
Guest:If I can see that tiny exit, what do I look like in relation to that?
Marc:Sure, sure.
Marc:And are they laughing?
Marc:Like if you think of yourself at a show, like would you, I don't know how the hell, when people go to comedy shows, I'm like, I don't even know what they're doing.
Marc:So like...
Marc:But if you were sitting in the back of a room, would you laugh?
Guest:Look, man, I was a civilian for a long time where I didn't know if I would really even make it in this business.
Guest:And I remember, I don't try to forget this.
Guest:I know what it's like paying $85 plus $32.
Guest:$85?
Guest:Yeah, plus $32 for Ticketmaster fees.
Guest:I saw Russell Peters here at UCLA way in the back, Chris Spencer open.
Guest:I told Russell this.
Guest:I go, I saw you way in the back.
Guest:Did you laugh?
Guest:I was witnessing at that level.
Guest:You're just witnessing.
Guest:Sure, exactly.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Now, there's two things that, again, I don't know, you've been doing stand-up such a long time where, I don't know, do you remember that feeling?
Guest:When you're a fan of somebody, the first feeling you have is, oh, he's real.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because we exist as just avatars.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So the first time you see, you go, no, no, he's actually, can you believe it?
Marc:He's here in Westwood.
Marc:i know yeah yeah yeah or you see him at a little club like i remember going to a comedy club when i was in college yeah and uh like you know paul reiser was there and i'd seen just seen diner and i was at the comic strip or eddie murphy popped in you like whoa right but uh i don't know like so you're just witnessing the way they move that they're in the flight then the second thing you witness i always feel that though i've always felt though that comics were human they're not like rock stars
Marc:They never struck me like when I'd watch them in a movie or something.
Marc:They always struck me as human.
Marc:Really?
Marc:The good ones.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They're not machines.
Marc:Some of them are machines.
Marc:But like when I saw prior in high school, you couldn't be more human than that guy.
Marc:I mean, I saw him in the movies.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like I saw a midnight showing of live in concert.
Marc:And that's what changed my brain.
Marc:Like I never laughed so much in my fucking life at a movie.
Marc:of a guy doing stand-up but he always seemed human to me and when i saw him in real life he was more fragile than i thought but he was older but but what's your your point is is like the excitement of seeing that they're real yeah that's the first thing then the second thing i remember distinctly is then seeing the pop of the crowd yeah so you know all comics were more of observers i mean real pop or the pop of them recognizing celebrity
Guest:No, the pop of that first big joke.
Marc:You know that first big uppercut where you get that first big applause break?
Guest:And you go, oh shit.
Marc:Of applause breaks, I don't know.
Guest:I had to laugh.
Guest:But you start to see people sometimes on a big joke, they hurl over.
Guest:And so I was witnessing that.
Guest:With Russell.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:But with like 3,000 people in 2005.
Guest:And I was just an open miker at that point.
Guest:Where?
Guest:I started in Sacramento.
Guest:At the punch?
Guest:At the punch, yeah.
Guest:I went to UC Davis.
Guest:Wait, first of all, Mark, I wanted to ask you this.
Guest:I've known you a long time.
Guest:I've kind of observed you from the rear vestiges of the comedy story.
Guest:What is your perception of me?
Marc:Well, it's weird.
Marc:Because the eye cannot see itself.
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:I know.
Marc:But I mean, I don't know.
Marc:Have you been hanging around the comedy store?
Marc:I'm trying to remember.
Marc:I think we met once, maybe.
Guest:I moved a long time.
Guest:When I got hired at the Daily Show, I moved a long time ago.
Guest:I was around a bit.
Guest:What year was that?
Guest:I moved to New York in 2014, and I have not returned back yet.
Guest:I was around.
Guest:You were around.
Marc:and this is really when the podcast was really really like just like started 2009 it was starting to take really taken i don't know that i don't know that i i knew you as a stand-up really and i don't i'm not sure because i didn't watch the daily show at that point like ever really got it but i knew that you were happening you know and i knew and i watched some of the patriarch stuff okay and then i watched a special you know recently because i knew i was going to talk to you so i don't know that you were on my radar other than like a guy that was doing things got it in in a righteous
Marc:way so i don't know that so i don't know that like i had a perception of you as a performer i i was sort of like you have a you cut a real strong line with your beard so like you know like they're like the manicure of your beard yeah it's yeah it's real geometric yeah
Marc:And I kind of think like, what kind of guy pays that much attention to that line?
Marc:To the barber?
Marc:Oh, it's a big deal.
Guest:You go down the rabbit hole, my friend.
Guest:Yeah, who your barber is and yeah, who's cutting your hair is a big deal.
Marc:I know that you hold everything pretty tight.
Marc:Oh, you mean personally?
Marc:No, I just, all of it.
Marc:The hair, the beard.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:The style, the watch.
Marc:I mean, you know, you're together, man.
Marc:Gotcha.
Marc:You're together.
Marc:There's no unraveling this guy.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Right?
Marc:So that's the perception?
Marc:Right, yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Like, it's tight, right?
Guest:Okay.
Guest:What is the perception you think you're doing?
Guest:Well, I was just, I was wondering, I was like, maybe if Mark saw the White House Correspondents' Dinner or something, he's like, who is this poofy-haired, big-eyed Indian kid?
Guest:No.
Guest:Because we're culturally a very new thing.
Guest:Our community coming up and coming of age in American popular culture and comedy is a very new thing.
Guest:Yeah, but oddly-
Guest:Or maybe you don't see it that way.
Guest:Maybe you're just like, no, he's just a comic guy.
Marc:I don't know that I see it that way, which is good.
Marc:No, no, no, great.
Marc:Look, man, I've talked to a lot of first-generation people of all kinds, and Indian culture has always been sort of fascinating to me, and I'm kind of hung up on it.
Guest:You have an odd obsession, but you won't visit, which I find interesting.
Marc:But I actually have some of that soap right now.
Marc:Someone gave me that soap, the changrit.
Guest:Oh, gotcha.
Marc:You know that Ayurvedic soap?
Marc:Oh, boy.
Marc:So my whole bathroom up there smells like an Indian store.
Marc:Gotcha.
Guest:It smells like Queens.
Marc:Yeah, kind of.
Marc:But it's sort of food-based, generally, and Ganesh-based, and the way it all looks.
Marc:That's generally how they get you Americans.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Sure, man.
Guest:Yeah, they're just like, all right, we'll start with yoga.
Marc:Well, not so much yoga, but I do like Nag Champa, but that guy's a dubious character.
Guest:Sure, sure, sure.
Marc:The Nag Champa guy, isn't he?
Marc:I don't know what his story is.
Marc:So I don't know that if it was, you registered as an Indian necessarily, and not really with Russell.
Marc:As a comic?
Marc:Did I register as a comic?
Guest:Oh, he's a comedian.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:Gotcha.
Marc:Yeah, you know, there's been other, a few Indians, but they were not progressive Indians.
Marc:Okay, gotcha.
Marc:You know, Jerry Beddob.
Marc:Of course, I know Uncle Jerry.
Marc:He's Uncle Jerry to me.
Marc:Is he?
Marc:Yeah, of course.
Marc:Did you talk to him?
Marc:Yeah, of course.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:You have to?
Marc:Oh, come on, man.
Marc:The old timers?
Marc:Always.
Marc:So you sat down with Jerry and said, when did you decide to not wear the headdress anymore?
Guest:Wait, how did you know it was time to take off the headdress?
Guest:You know what's crazy, man?
Guest:What?
Guest:But those guys are the ones that had to deal with Indiana Jones Hollywood.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Monkey Brains Hollywood.
Guest:Oh, yeah, sure, sure, sure.
Guest:So, like, the shoulders I stand on, it's really funny, man.
Guest:When I talk to guys like him, or even the shit Maz Jobrani had to go through.
Guest:Maz?
Guest:Oh, my God, man.
Guest:And also, like, Aaron Cater.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:And Ahmed.
Guest:The things that they had to go through.
Guest:The aperture...
Guest:The aperture and the myopic nature that Hollywood had in reference to kind of like who can kind of culturally play in this playground was very narrow.
Guest:And how they played.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So they box you.
Guest:Correct.
Guest:You can play, but this is your box.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So to see a show like Rami on Hulu or to see my show, they're just like, we didn't know.
Guest:We didn't think it was possible.
Guest:And I said, I mean, it's only possible because of the kind of the groundwork you guys laid, just honestly.
Marc:But I think that all cultures, like even the Jews, that after a certain point, there's an attempt to pass.
Marc:And then at some point, you decide to own your heritage, right?
Marc:And so what's happening now culturally, I think, across the board is, at least in fiction, is that there is some integration going on.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And there's some embracing of diversity.
Marc:I don't know if it's bleeding into reality, but I think reality is much different and the lines are not as defined.
Marc:I think that most people live among other people.
Marc:Correct.
Marc:And it's the way it is.
Marc:But now it's such on TV and in fiction and in storytelling, it's sort of like, look what we're doing.
Marc:Finally, we're letting the brown people talk.
Marc:They have their own lives.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That don't center around us.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Can you believe it?
Marc:So it's kind of fascinating to see like to realize for me what's more fascinating is that, you know, that America is much more diverse than it admits.
Marc:And that really is the future.
Marc:And whatever is happening right now culturally and politically is the freak out in light of that.
Guest:Yeah, and honestly, to me, the cool thing that I like that I'm seeing right now is the artists, we've always been the weirdos.
Guest:You know, when I first started going to the Brainwash Cafe in San Francisco.
Guest:I know that place.
Guest:Yeah, you look at that open mic lineup, and you probably went to- I remember all those guys.
Guest:But it was- Oh, comics were weirdos, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, but it was an eclectic mix.
Marc:No, I know, because it was sort of, the thing about comedy is you can sort of do whatever you want.
Marc:Whatever you want.
Marc:And either it'll stick or it won't, or you'll stick with it or you won't.
Marc:You'll be that weirdo that people remember, like,
Marc:Oh, you remember that guy who came in with that hat?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So we were just talking about that last night, me and Ingram, he was talking about somebody used to do a potluck at the store.
Marc:But I was just, I looked up Davis, because I've been there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you went to college there, and there used to be a gig at a huge college bar there.
Marc:Do you remember a comedy show that used to happen, maybe monthly, at Davis?
Marc:Yeah, there was.
Marc:It was in a giant, I remember it being in a bar, though.
Marc:Yeah, it's called The Grad.
Marc:The grad.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:I had explosive diarrhea at the grad when I worked there.
Marc:Oh shit.
Marc:That's what I remember.
Marc:How much did they pay?
Marc:I don't remember.
Marc:I think it was like, you know, for the headliner, it feels like it might've been a $400 some gig like that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Maybe.
Guest:Does that sound right?
Guest:Something like that.
Guest:You go with an opener.
Guest:You know, funny enough, that was my sneak attack.
Guest:That's how I really integrated myself in the San Francisco comedy scene.
Guest:How?
Guest:Well, what I would do is I would book
Guest:shows at Davis.
Guest:At the college.
Guest:Correct.
Guest:And I would, now it wasn't at the grad, it then shifted on campus, but they somehow, the UC Regents gave me a credit card and $10,000.
Guest:And so I could book 10 or 15 of these shows at $500 a pop.
Guest:So let's go back though.
Marc:So like you're, like I watched this special and it seems to me that like, you know, I've done one man shows as opposed to, you know, just an hour of standup.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Don't you like it more?
Marc:Sometimes.
Guest:Oh, you don't like it more?
Marc:No, I do, but it's a different thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because I've tried both things, and it really is a different thing.
Marc:Gotcha.
Marc:What do you think you're better at?
Marc:I think that's the more interesting.
Marc:I try to have themes in my stand-up.
Guest:Totally.
Marc:I try to have...
Marc:Callbacks in places to land.
Guest:And you are a storyteller.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Fundamentally.
Marc:Yeah, but this sort of arc of like, I'm the character in this show and I go through some change and this is the turn at the beginning of the third act and now we're gonna land this thing.
Marc:It's okay.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:You know, I like it.
Marc:I mean, you know, it was moving.
Marc:But but I what I do know about stand up and about doing those woman shows is sort of like you definitely have to edit reality and insert a certain emotional sensitivity in order to sell that fucking thing.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:You know, you have to sell at some level go like I was a lot more pissed off than this, but that's not going to really.
Guest:That's not going to really work because we're closing out to be and we're moving on to act three.
Guest:But let me just say this, Mark.
Guest:In defense of those types of shows, at times, I really feel like pure stand-up, although it is beautiful, is such a mixtape art form.
Guest:And what I mean by that is when you listen to a mixtape, it's just a grab bag of tracks.
Guest:I guess so.
Guest:And while it's emotionally very true, a lot of times artists, when they drop mixtapes, they really were punched in and locked in in the studio.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:It's an emotional flow, but not a story.
Guest:Correct.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I've watched both.
Guest:And I've been like, and I've watched both from the perspective as a comic and as an audience member.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And sometimes when audience members leave those big standup shows, they go, man, that was fucking cool.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But what was it about?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:It was fucking cool.
Guest:Or then no one joke.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm like, if that's what you're taking from my show, I'm extremely disappointed.
Marc:No, I get that.
Marc:I mean, I understand the storytelling.
Marc:And also, you know, it's an immigrant story.
Marc:It's a racism story.
Marc:It's, you know, you lucked out with Facebook.
Marc:You used diagrams.
Marc:It's a full show.
Marc:It's a different thing.
Guest:Sure, yeah.
Guest:And look- It's a decision a comic makes.
Guest:I'm lighting design, stage design, all those things.
Guest:And to be honest with you, Mark, a lot of it just came after just failing as a standup.
Guest:It just was not working.
Guest:Well, that's what one-man shows are.
Guest:That's exactly what they are.
Guest:How many Hasan Minhaj Conan Submission V8.mov am I going to send in?
Guest:It just wasn't clicking.
Marc:But your chops were there.
Marc:I mean, you didn't fail as a stand-up in that you did the training.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:I had been doing it 11, 12 years.
Marc:But I get the urge to do a one-person show, and it really is that moment where you're like, I can't just headline.
Marc:Yeah, man.
Marc:And I'm headlining B rooms or no one knows me as a headliner.
Guest:And there's, and there's, and there's also a thing of just like, look at your stance.
Guest:Sometimes when I see you and you're perched up on that stool, it's very different than watching, say someone like Sebastian or watching someone like Godfrey, Godfrey, Joe Coy.
Guest:They're working the room in a different way.
Guest:And so I, you know, I've done that work though.
Guest:I've done the moving.
Marc:Oh, you did?
Marc:How did it, how did it go?
Marc:Fine.
Marc:I mean, I know how to move.
Marc:At some point, I felt that I found myself sitting down more when I was tanking.
Marc:So as opposed to panic, when jokes aren't working, I'll be like, I'm just going to work against that and sit down.
Marc:And then I realized that the idea, the device of sitting down creates an intimacy in almost any environment.
Marc:So I can work from there.
Marc:And you're playing to your strength.
Marc:Yeah, they're coming to you.
Marc:But then sometimes it doesn't, you know, I don't feel I'm coming in and I'm up, I'm moving.
Marc:You're moving.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:I'm not adverse to moving.
Guest:You're like, I'm not afraid of an actor.
Marc:No.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But so, oh, anyway, so I'm like looking up that you went to UC Davis.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I have an old housemate of mine from college as a teacher there.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:And I had to order his new book, which I'm not going to understand.
Marc:But then I looked at what you studied, which was what?
Guest:Poli-sci, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know that you would have taken classes with this guy, though he's a political guy, Joshua Clover.
Guest:Perhaps.
Guest:I wasn't paying attention.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, man.
Guest:I really started really just focusing on stand-up.
Guest:I was a smart, capable kid.
Guest:I was a speech and debate kid in high school.
Guest:You were?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:yeah tell me about that thing like the stuff in the show like the father thing seems so it seems like you underplayed it seems like this guy was more of a nightmare than yeah i think the chapter the the chapter two the b-sides of it was was more of you know like like all i think sons with their dads there's a lot of simba mufasa energy there of just like and i think now that i've gotten older and now i have children of my own yeah i get it i get it man i wouldn't wish yeah but
Guest:I wouldn't wish this life on my kids.
Guest:Are you fucking kidding me?
Marc:But what was the story?
Marc:I mean, these are professional people, right?
Marc:Because I didn't get really a sense of what your dad did.
Marc:So he's a chemist.
Guest:He's an organic chemist.
Guest:And he worked as an organic chemist for about 35 years.
Guest:In private?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:He was a state worker.
Guest:Both of my parents are like public state workers.
Guest:My mom works at the VA.
Guest:What's an organic chemist do for the state?
Guest:He was specifically- His agriculture?
Guest:Yeah, agriculture.
Guest:So, I mean, if you want to get nerdy about it, it's specifically in regards to the pesticides they're putting on plants in California, on almonds, on different- Hey, what is the efficacy of this?
Guest:What is not the efficacy of this?
Guest:All that sort of stuff.
Guest:So where did he come from?
Guest:Where did he learn?
Guest:Where did he get his degree?
Guest:He studied in India and then through, you know, in the late 60s, there was something called the Immigration of 1965 where the United States government wanted to bring over a lot of
Guest:college-educated students.
Guest:And that's where you saw an influx of a lot of East Asian immigrants.
Guest:My dad's a part of that.
Guest:He came in 82.
Guest:And he went right to California?
Guest:He went right to California.
Guest:His sister was there.
Guest:And the Cal EPA was looking for PhD candidates to do chemistry, organic chemistry, and all that sort of stuff.
Guest:My dad came over.
Guest:I was born in 85.
Guest:And then he had that job.
Guest:This is such a rare story now.
Guest:He had that job for 35 years.
Marc:So he was there since he was 20-something?
Marc:Correct.
Marc:He came over in the 60s?
Guest:No, no, no, he came over in the 80s.
Guest:He was 30-something.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:He came in 82.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so for my dad, I mean, his big thing with me was, I think he could see that I was a very capable, smart person.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So he was like, why would you perform in a basement for drunks?
Marc:Yeah, I know, but in the struggle from that, I just talked to David Chang the other day.
Marc:Yeah, the restaurateur.
Marc:Yeah, and it's a Korean trip.
Marc:Correct.
Marc:I know a lot of the stories about these fathers who come off as detached and have varying degrees of what would be emotional negligence bordering on abuse that you guys have to put into perspective.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, look, I know you might be like, come on, man, he really fucked you up, didn't he?
Guest:No, no, no, I don't think he fucked you up.
Guest:I think he gave me two great things, man.
Guest:And he's not wrong.
Guest:That's the thing.
Guest:Can I go back?
Guest:About what?
Guest:First was his analysis.
Marc:kid are you really gonna make it when does this start this conversation this this starts around 2006 2007 so you're but yeah i'm a junior in college but what about when in high school like what about when you're a little kid i mean i know all the jokes yeah about you know like you got to be pretty mad and all that sort of right right right yeah but i mean but was there a was there
Marc:And your mother wasn't around for your first what?
Guest:Yeah, she was back and forth.
Guest:She was obviously finishing her degree and then she had to do- So it's just you and the old man.
Guest:Yeah, and then she's doing a residency in New York and then Stockton.
Guest:You're familiar with Northern California.
Guest:And then she moves- And she works at the VA?
Guest:She works at the VA.
Guest:She still works at the VA.
Guest:As what?
Guest:Over off Mather.
Guest:She's a doctor.
Guest:Oh, doctor.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that's good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I'm talking about all the life of judging yourself against what you're expected to do.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What was the expectation?
Guest:I mean, for our community, the expectation is something in the professional field, lawyer, doctor.
Marc:But for you, what was your dad when you were in junior high?
Marc:What was he like?
Marc:What are you thinking about?
Guest:Yeah, he's like math, science, something like that.
Marc:Were you doing math and science?
Guest:Yeah, no, it was pretty good.
Guest:Pretty good.
Guest:Yeah, I was capable.
Guest:But not gifted.
Guest:It's all relative.
Guest:In comparison to white students, I was fucking lapping them.
Yeah.
Guest:What are you talking about?
Guest:Indian and Chinese kids?
Guest:I mean, I'm on the lower rung.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I'm not part of the new faces out of the Indians and Chinese kids.
Guest:You understand what I'm saying?
Guest:Math new faces?
Guest:Yeah, math new faces.
Guest:Robbie Prah has picked the top.
Guest:I'm number 13 or 14.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Marc:You understand what I'm saying?
Marc:And was the competition with white kids, you know, insane?
Guest:No, it's not.
Guest:No.
Guest:Because they've been here so long, they have a sense of entitlement.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So there's just a hunger and drive immigrants just have that it's inconceivable to a lot of Americans.
Marc:And they assume that you're going to be, you know, lap them.
Marc:I don't know what they think.
Marc:But doesn't that become part of the prejudice?
Marc:What's the prejudice?
Marc:That these guys are so smart.
Marc:That these guys are the smart ones.
Marc:They're not wrong.
Guest:Mark.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Mark, they go hard in the paint.
Guest:And you do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What do you want me to do about it, Brandon?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But was there like I mean, on top of just basic racism, you had to deal with, you know, anti nerdism as well.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:I mean, the the the world that I came into was the sort of world of the Patriot Act and the War on Terror.
Guest:That was that kind of shaped my my life and my relationship in America.
Guest:And I think now I'm 36.
Guest:And now I'm seeing that we have enough time and we're looking at the vestiges of it as we've left Iraq and Afghanistan and we've kind of looked at government surveillance in a new way.
Guest:That is something that when I was 15 or 16 years old, people didn't really talk about or know about.
Guest:No, you were just the enemy.
Guest:Correct.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was, you know, my dad was very involved in the community.
Guest:It was one of those things where it was not uncommon for the FBI and the feds to embed in the community.
Guest:You'd have a lot of federal agents all of a sudden convert to Islam.
Guest:Hi, I'm brother Eric.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Shit like that.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And you talk in that early special about...
Marc:About the event of active racially driven vandalism and your father.
Marc:Your two opinions, the way you saw it and the way he saw it.
Marc:You as a born American, him as this is the hit we have to take to live here.
Guest:Yeah, and both of those, I think, philosophical opinions are valid.
Guest:And I think America's still dealing with that.
Guest:The way things are and the way things ought to be.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And my dad over indexes on the way things are.
Guest:And now that I'm a dad, I'm like, yeah, I do see his perspective a lot clearer.
Marc:So the the arc of your relationship with him, there doesn't seem to be a point where he was ever going to draw a real line with you and say, if you do this, you're out or you can't do this.
Guest:No, I think the big, the big tough conversation, I think was around like 2012.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My LSAT score was expiring.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that was the real fork in the road.
Guest:He wants you to be a lawyer.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, at that point I had finished poli sci.
Guest:I had a live LSAT score.
Guest:It expires after five years.
Guest:I'm living in Los Angeles.
Guest:I'm staring at you from the, from the rear corners of the comedy.
Marc:And you're, and you're friends with, uh, Fahim and all those guys.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I like Fahim a lot.
Guest:Oh, Fahim's really funny.
Guest:Really funny.
Guest:Fahim's extremely funny.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So there's a crew.
Guest:There's a crew of East Asian guys.
Guest:There's a little crew of us.
Guest:Yeah, and we're making YouTube videos.
Guest:How many are you?
Guest:About four or five, yeah.
Marc:Who are the other ones?
Guest:Me, Asif Ali, Aristotle, who's now on SNL.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Asif, Fahim, it's four of us.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And we kind of would meet at commercial auditions and be like, they're not gonna book us, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then you got a pizza.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Then we got a pizza commercial.
Guest:And just, yeah, we started just doing, um, that was our kind of alternative comedy moment.
Marc:I'm just like, Hey, let's make our own video.
Marc:And your dad's up there saying like, when are you going to, what are you doing?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:When are you going to take your bar exam?
Marc:When are you going to go to law school or apply to law school?
Guest:And funny enough, I did apply and I was waitlisted and where at UCLA and USC.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that was a really tough conversation of like, I'm not going to go.
Guest:You knew you weren't going to go.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:So you just, you applied just to placate him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know what's funny, man?
Guest:I was hanging on to the Greg Giraldo dream.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I knew Giraldo, Dimitri.
Guest:These guys were, they were, but Giraldo was a lawyer.
Guest:They were licensed.
Guest:Giraldo was licensed.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:No, he was a licensed practicing attorney.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:But I was like, hey, if he.
Marc:So was Aldo Bell.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There's a few attorneys.
Marc:There's another one, too.
Marc:What was that guy's name in New York?
Marc:But yeah, go ahead.
Marc:But you could have been an attorney, too, Mark.
Marc:My brain, as smart as it may be, is not that disciplined.
Marc:I don't know that I could have.
Marc:I could have if I applied myself.
Guest:You don't think you had the brain to argue as a public defender?
Marc:Oh, no, sure.
Marc:But I would never have thought.
Marc:I never had an active thought about it.
Marc:Sure, sure.
Marc:You know, once I graduated college, I was like, well, I'm gonna do this comedy.
Marc:And I didn't know how to.
Guest:And you fully embraced for several decades.
Guest:How do I hurt myself more than help myself?
Marc:Well, no, I don't think that.
Marc:I think that that was just the nature.
Marc:I don't know that anyone embraces that.
Marc:You mean that was just the time?
Marc:Those were the times doing coke and all that crazy shit.
Marc:I have a substance abuse compulsion and it made me feel better.
Marc:I did have heroes who were drug people, but I didn't feel like I was doing it for an effect.
Guest:Can you explain that to me?
Guest:I've never understood, and maybe it's because I'm a square, I've never understood the thing of doing the drug that hurts you.
Guest:I totally get the effect of drugs.
Guest:Like, I get why Alex Rodriguez and Barry Bonds did roids.
Guest:You want to smack that fucking ball out of the stadium.
Marc:Oh, I don't know which ones you're saying hurt me.
Marc:Like, you know, weed doesn't really hurt you.
Marc:It kind of gets your brain kind of like, hey, everything, your perception gets a little kind of amplified and everything's kind of crispy.
Marc:I don't get the MDMA.
Marc:I don't get all that stuff.
Marc:MDMA, I never, it wasn't really the round yet.
Marc:I get coffee.
Marc:I get Adderall.
Marc:I get things that kind of put you.
Guest:Oh, then you get Coke.
Guest:Oh, Coke.
Guest:Coke's like that.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Coke and speed or that's what Adderall is speed.
Marc:Gotcha.
Marc:So that, yeah, that's the kind of drug that you would like.
Marc:You get your brain going fast.
Guest:That's Indian steroids.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:And booze is booze.
Marc:But no, I mean, I was always just trying to get to myself.
Marc:I mean, that was my journey as a comic is that like there was a purity to it.
Marc:Like I was like, I'm not in this to be an entertainer.
Marc:I want to figure out how to say what I want to say and have the space to say it.
Marc:And I decided comedy was the place to do that.
Marc:So it was a matter of me finding myself.
Marc:And drugs were just part of that.
Marc:And I just found myself maybe a year ago.
Marc:It took a long time.
Marc:Well, most people become a caricature of themselves, which is what makes them successful.
Marc:I didn't know how to do that on purpose.
Marc:So either it happens just by nature or by time.
Marc:But most guys are not really that authentic.
Marc:They're doing an act.
Marc:Oh, interesting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And there are certain guys that show a vulnerability that they can't help, but they're rare.
Marc:And cranky guys usually are a little more vulnerable than guys who have their shit together.
Marc:I mean, this is an act.
Marc:You are doing an act.
Marc:And part of the reason you do comedy is defensive because
Marc:So it's not like you're offering your whole heart there.
Marc:And I'm a guy who wears his heart on his sleeve, so I had to figure that out.
Marc:So I went through a very angry time, and then it kind of softened up.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But it really, it's like not everybody does, hardly anybody does comedy the way I choose to go about it.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Get your act.
Guest:Right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, you really, this very reminds me of a Shandling-like way of approach of it.
Guest:You're like, no, this is a lifelong journey of discovering myself.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, I didn't plan it that way, but I also didn't understand show business.
Marc:I was just sort of like, all I knew was I wanted to do comedy, and I didn't want to do anything else, and there was really nothing else I could see doing.
Guest:And, you know, it was scary.
Guest:Maybe the way I saw it is a little bit different than you, in the sense that...
Guest:There's this take that I kind of have where I go, this country was built on one of two principles, either entrepreneurship or murder.
Guest:Sometimes a little bit of both.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Hello, Raytheon or whatever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I go, you know, my community kind of came in and really embraced entrepreneurship.
Guest:And when it clicked for me when I was with the guys, when I was with all those Goatface guys, I was like- Goatface was the sketch group.
Guest:Which was our sketch group.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I was like, we're going to have to build our way out of it.
Guest:And I think Homecoming King, my new show came out of that too of, hey, we're just going to build this on our own and we're going to find our way- Out of your experience as the East Indian guy.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:East Asian guy.
Guest:Yeah, and they're Middle Eastern and Muslim.
Guest:It's just a combination of melanin there.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And we're just going to build our way out of it.
Guest:And I think what's really beautiful is as I hit my 30s,
Guest:There was millions of people who came of age that now want to see that show.
Guest:So if you go to my show or Ali Wong's show, you look out into that audience.
Guest:That audience, you would not see that audience at the Comedians of Comedy show.
Guest:No, right.
Guest:No, but it's really a beautiful thing.
Marc:It's really representing this new- Russell.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I mean, Russell was the guy.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:That really broke that through.
Marc:The generally, the sort of broad spectrum brown crowd that wasn't black.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:So that's all of Asia.
Guest:And Gabriel Iglesias has really done that for the Latin community.
Guest:And when you go out to those shows, you're just like, no, this is America too.
Guest:It's more America.
Guest:yeah if you look at just sheer numbers sure but i think what's what's happening right now is we're breaking that kind of hegemony of like oh who who how who now has cultural cachet to push the button and make it happen in terms of distribution yeah studio movies crazy rich asians big tv shows master of mindy project these sort of things of oh it's being put through the pipes of hulu and netflix yeah and and i'm very lucky to be now be part of that era
Marc:And also, we're also in the era where if you have the wherewithal to sort of pull your audience together, to corral them through whatever means you have at your own disposal, you do it.
Marc:But it's very hard for me to, I can't figure out ultimately what the bigger cultural
Marc:impact or who can make it.
Marc:It's not really my world, unfortunately.
Marc:My audiences are roughly some manifestation of my disposition.
Marc:They're not really a demographic.
Marc:So they range in age.
Marc:They're generally intelligent.
Marc:They're kind of cranky.
Marc:It's not that diverse a bunch.
Marc:But they're smart.
Marc:And they're nervous.
Yeah.
Guest:Are they bigger or smaller now, you say?
Guest:Now that you're doing these, because I noticed you're doing clubs and smaller theaters.
Guest:That's just to work out shit.
Guest:That's to work out your shit.
Guest:But if you wanted to do Radio City, you'd be like, I could.
Marc:Nah, I think I'd top off in New York.
Marc:I filled Carnegie and I filled the Beacon, but I think that's about it.
Marc:Even in 2012, 2013, 2014?
Marc:No, no, nothing.
Marc:No, that didn't happen for years.
Marc:I mean, when did I do Carnegie Hall?
Marc:A few years ago.
Marc:It wasn't until, you know, 18, 19.
Marc:So your draw has actually increased.
Marc:Of course.
Guest:Gotcha.
Marc:Yeah, because no one knew what to do with me.
Marc:And then because of the podcast, people understood the expansiveness of my personality because people tried to box me in.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, you're the angry guy.
Marc:And I wasn't.
Marc:I was just angry.
Marc:It was not a character.
Yeah.
Marc:You know, I had to temper myself.
Marc:So when do you start doing comedy in Davis?
Marc:When do you start going to sack punch?
Guest:I was a freshman in college.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I saw this movie called Harold and Kumar Go to White Castle.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it just blew my mind.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was like, I can be that.
Guest:Yeah, I could be.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it just was so cool to see.
Guest:Again, I'm looking at this poster behind you, this Rolling Stones poster, and I'm walking past Holiday Cinema in downtown Davis.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it clicked for me.
Guest:I was like, oh, it's possible.
Guest:So I just had a very small worldview.
Guest:I did not think it was conceivable or possible.
Guest:Do you see what I'm saying?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You have to see somebody who you can kind of see yourself in.
Guest:So it wasn't a stand-up.
Guest:It was Harold and Kumar.
Guest:It was Cal Penn.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I go, oh, I can do this.
Guest:That was in 2004.
Guest:The following year in 2005, Russell blows up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He becomes a huge deal.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Then a few years later, my senior year of college, there's a kid named Aziz Ansari.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's blowing up.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I go, my God, man, Eugene Merman.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Likes Aziz.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Mark Maron likes Aziz.
Guest:Aziz Ansari's doing comedy death ray.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It just seemed crazy to me.
Guest:So that represented a possibility.
Guest:It could happen.
Guest:Now to my dad, he had no idea what any of this stuff was.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:But it was starting.
Guest:Yeah, my parents didn't.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:They still didn't know.
Guest:But in my mind, I was like, okay, it can happen.
Marc:It could happen.
Marc:Well, that thing you say about parents in general, that's an age thing and a technology thing.
Marc:I mean, no matter how much of a career I had, I don't think my father has figured out how to listen to the podcast yet.
Marc:So it might not ever happen.
Marc:But fathers are weird.
Marc:We've established that.
Marc:So you just start doing the open mics at that fucking Sacramento punch.
Guest:At Sac Punch, yeah.
Guest:And then I start going out to San Francisco.
Guest:I start driving to San Francisco.
Guest:And I'm living at home at the time.
Marc:Who's doing open mics?
Marc:So are you going to shows at the Sac Punch?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I would go to the Tuesday night, you know, open mics.
Guest:But did they roll you into like opening position there?
Guest:Did you open?
Guest:Yeah, I had to get Molly to kind of pass me.
Guest:You know, Molly Schmink?
Guest:Who I'm still like, oh man, she still gives me like the, does Molly like me?
Guest:Does Molly not like her?
Guest:When I was there, she was like 16.
Guest:She didn't have power.
Guest:If Molly, you're listening to this, I still want you to like me so bad because I remember she would- She'll never let on.
Guest:I know.
Guest:She'd be like, Brent Weinbach, Moshe Kasher, Ali Wong, Kamau Bell.
Guest:And I'm like,
Guest:come on, pick me.
Guest:I wanted to be picked some open for me.
Marc:All those people.
Guest:Yeah, and I go, man, if Molly likes me, I'll get a good weekend.
Guest:But did she eventually?
Marc:Yeah, Molly, like, eventually.
Marc:I just remember, man, staying at that goddamn hotel across from there and going to that fucking mall.
Marc:I used to work up there.
Guest:Did you think you were good early on?
Guest:Did you think you were good?
Guest:Because when I watch old clips of you, either you're masquerading, you have an incredible amount of low self-esteem and you're masquerading like you have a ton.
Marc:I was angry and I thought I had a point.
Marc:So I knew I was saying things that weren't being said.
Marc:I knew I was relatively original, but I don't think I had control of the thing.
Marc:I used to say that for the first however many years it takes, about 75 to 80% of the job is pretending that you're not afraid.
Marc:So I think I went into it very aggressively.
Marc:And I thought I was doing something.
Marc:I don't know that I would say I was good, but I do believe I deserved things.
Marc:I was driven by spot.
Guest:Can I ask you something really blunt?
Guest:Were you like, I'm better than Patrice O'Neal?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:Were you like, I'm better than Bill Burr?
Guest:For real, for real.
Guest:Back then?
Guest:No, I think that I... Like, did you honestly be like, I can crush harder than these guys.
Marc:I know I can.
Marc:I never thought in terms of crushing.
Marc:It always made me nervous.
Marc:I really thought in terms of, you know, can I make this thing land?
Marc:Got it.
Marc:And at that time, Bill and Patrice were, they're younger than me, and I don't really remember seeing... So you did not see them as threats?
Marc:No, people that were threatening to me were people like Attal, people like, and they were only threatening in that I didn't want to follow them in New York.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:And also, they were getting work on the road and I just wanted to get work.
Marc:I never liked the whole dick fight of it.
Guest:You never had the...
Guest:Almost like the way rappers have beef.
Guest:No, I can't do that.
Guest:No, my records are better than your records.
Guest:I can't do that thing.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:So yours was just jealousy and envy in regards to opportunity.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, got it.
Marc:And I envied their structure or their joke writing process.
Marc:I was always very hard on myself about why can't I come up with that kind of shit because my process is what it is.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I've had to accept it over the years, but I still do that.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Do you know, like, why can't I write as good a joke as that?
Marc:Or why can't I think this through?
Marc:Or why can't I structure something like that?
Marc:But I don't give myself enough credit either.
Marc:So I was always down on myself more than I was competing.
Guest:I think your unlock would have been if you had just embraced collaboration more.
Guest:Well, that's probably right.
Guest:Just like, you know, like in basketball.
Guest:In what sense?
Guest:Well, like there's certain things that you do incredibly well.
Guest:All you have to do is have a counterweight of perhaps somebody else.
Marc:Yeah, but stand up was never about that.
Marc:And I actually fought against that.
Marc:I'm like, we're the we're the cowboys, man.
Marc:We're we're out here on our own.
Marc:We're out here.
Marc:It's just me on the planes.
Marc:We're going to get together with a group.
Marc:and fucking figure out a little show.
Guest:It's like, that's not what a fucking stand-up is.
Guest:Yeah, but then as I started hanging out with more headliners that are really doing it and that are lifers.
Marc:Sure, right.
Marc:Then you go up to them and you go like, hey, I don't want to be too forward, but you could tag that bit with- Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, or I would just see everybody that I liked that was really working, Rock, Birbiglia, all these guys would-
Guest:Exchange tags and, hey, what do you think about that?
Guest:Well, that happens.
Guest:I mean, I'm not adverse to that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Occasionally someone will come up to me and give me a tag.
Guest:Or they would work with, like, you know, in the case of Mike, who I've loved for such a long time, he'd work with Seth Barish.
Guest:And they would collaborate together.
Guest:So stuff like that where I'm like, yeah, why don't we work like musicians?
Guest:Because we're not musicians.
Guest:But we are.
Marc:Well, then get a writing staff.
Guest:You had one.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I mean, there are guys that do all of that, do that all the time.
Guest:That's different.
Guest:You're misinterpreting what I'm saying.
Guest:I'm talking about a guy, when you're in Highland Park, and you're like, you know, Magical gets my brain.
Guest:Or so-and-so, Tom Papa gets my brain.
Guest:Oh, yeah, let's say work it out.
Guest:Let's work it out.
Guest:And let's actually put it out on a piece of paper.
Guest:Oh, you mean like... And go, Tom, let's have a writing session.
Marc:Let's actually talk about that.
Marc:this help me out with my act i'll help you out with yours yeah versus like are we really just gonna like watch porn all day and jack off and like you know what i'm saying two hours yeah yeah all day yeah not all walk around a little bit but i'm talking about all the hours of shame you're not talking about that either i don't but yeah what but hours of life so but no i mean i'm open to that yeah but it was not a practice yeah so okay so let's go back so you start
Marc:You start getting work at the punchline.
Marc:Punchline, yeah.
Marc:So she starts using you.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:So do you lock in?
Marc:How do you start to build?
Marc:Do you come down here?
Marc:Someone takes you on the road with them?
Marc:What was the next phase?
Guest:So the big, big inflection point for me was in 2008.
Guest:Do you remember the San Francisco Comedy Competition?
Guest:Yeah, I came in second in 94.
Guest:Who came in first?
Marc:Carlos Salazaraki.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I know, Carlos.
Guest:Of course.
Marc:I started doing those things.
Marc:I did it when it was still like a thing.
Marc:It was a big thing.
Marc:By the time you did it, it must have been terrible.
Guest:Yeah, I did another thing.
Guest:Look at those fucking numbers.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Trying to understand it.
Guest:That's crazy.
Guest:Dumb.
Guest:I did a thing called Best Comedy Jam, and every year, Wild 94.9, which is a big radio station, did a thing called Comedy Jam.
Guest:And they had a competition where they made the local openers, all the local SF guys compete with each other.
Guest:So that was a big inflection point in 2008.
Guest:I won that, and then I got to open at the Comedy Jam.
Guest:And then in 2009, I saw that as a sign, okay, I'm going to move to L.A.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So you're like, I'm ready to go.
Marc:I'm ready to go.
Marc:How much time did you have?
Marc:Like 20?
Marc:Yeah, I had like 30.
Marc:And I was doing NACAs.
Marc:Strong middle.
Guest:Oh, you're doing the NACAs.
Guest:I was doing NACAs.
Guest:See, now this is the thing.
Guest:So I had a week 60 and I had a decent 25.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you were also like an ambitious fuck, right?
Marc:So you were like, I'm going to make this business work.
Marc:See, that's what you bring to it from whatever your dad gave you.
Marc:From the beginning, you saw this as a business.
Marc:Well, were you going to die of poverty?
Marc:No.
Marc:No, but I never understood the business.
Marc:It wasn't a matter of poverty.
Marc:I was not savvy.
Marc:Like, I didn't do any prep work.
Marc:I just thought at some point, if I was great, I would be rewarded.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, I was that dumb.
Guest:So you thought Doug Herzog would descend from the mountain and go, you.
Guest:They do.
Guest:They did.
Guest:They did or they do?
Marc:Right.
Marc:They did.
Marc:But they still do, kind of.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the thing is, is that if you were in the right city, they do do that.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And it wasn't necessarily him.
Marc:I ended up pissing him off for fucking a decade.
Guest:Why?
Guest:Just because?
Marc:No, I said something on stage when he got the job running Comedy Central.
Marc:And apparently, I've been told after the fact, it caused some real fucking shit.
Marc:I'm very good at saying one thing and causing real shit.
Marc:What about world building?
Marc:Are you good at building coalitions?
Marc:No.
No.
Marc:I never built a coalition.
Marc:I mean, I've run a show.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:My show, and I'm pretty nice, but I always see myself as an employee, even when my name's on the fucking car.
Marc:Yeah, I don't get it, bro.
Marc:Whatever.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, because I'm not greedy, and my ambition is more to self-actualize in a way where the biggest gift for me, like now I'm doing these hour, hour and a half shows.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Where I'm improvising, which is how I build a show.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So the biggest thing for me is when out of nowhere a thing comes, you know, because I'm riffing and the thing comes and I'm like, that's the thing.
Marc:Where'd that come from?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:And so when those moments happen, happened last night.
Marc:Just like, I'm working a bit, I'm working a bit, I'm working a bit.
Marc:I know it's not quite right, but the timing's good.
Marc:It's killing.
Marc:And then boom, this other piece falls in.
Marc:I'm like, where'd that come?
Marc:That's the fucking work for me.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You're a back against the wall type of guy.
Guest:I'm going to work it out on stage.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm a vomit it out in the Google Doc.
Guest:Then I'll riff it out with friends.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'll be candid.
Guest:I have so many friends that are exponentially funnier than me.
Guest:Fahim is so much funnier than me.
Guest:Yeah, he's a funny guy.
Guest:He's a fucking funny.
Guest:Fahim Anwar is one of the best, I think, comments in the game.
Marc:Well, that's because he's like, you know.
Guest:His brain works that way.
Marc:But he's also, he's not afraid to be goofy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You're, you know, tight, man.
Guest:I know, man.
Guest:That's my biggest thing.
Guest:I'm trying to embrace being looser.
Guest:Yeah, how's that going?
Guest:You tell me, Mark.
Guest:Well, I mean, I want you to see the new hour.
Guest:I want you to see the new show.
Guest:I'm gonna.
Marc:But so like the idea though, the ambition of it, that you saw it as a business.
Marc:So you come down to LA and you're like- And it's not working.
Marc:No?
Marc:No, it's not working.
Marc:When I come to LA, there's several years- But how's the stage work?
Marc:Are you getting laughs?
Marc:Are you crushing?
Guest:No, I wasn't really crushing.
Guest:Why?
Why?
Guest:I think it's actually the note that you gave.
Guest:Is that like, I think the biggest problem that I've had and I'm still, you know, this journey is like never ending.
Guest:I've been doing it now, what, fucking 17 years?
Guest:Is I was just too in my head about it.
Guest:I really was like, you gotta, it's this joke and then this joke and this joke and this joke.
Guest:And Mark, you hit it right on the head.
Guest:People are like, yeah, he's tight.
Guest:And then someone like Rory Scovel will go up, who I love Rory.
Guest:And Rory will fucking just knock down all these walls and just be like, what the fuck are, this is, he embraced the cosmic joke.
Guest:And so to me,
Guest:I wasn't doing that that well.
Guest:And yeah.
Guest:And my real breakthrough moments were the moments where I was, I had structure, but then I also played jazz and it was just real like, oh, Huston's just going off the top of the dome and being able to play.
Marc:You did some riffing.
Guest:I think my Daily Show audition was a real breakthrough moment for me like that.
Marc:But like, what's the jazz that you said you were doing?
Guest:The jazz is like, you got, you know, people think jazz is all, it's not.
Guest:There's actually structure to it.
Guest:But then there's moments, there's little pockets in the set where you go, no, I can deploy this aha moment.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But you can, what, just riff a little?
Guest:Riff a little, poke fun at Mark, poke fun at whoever.
Marc:See, well, that's the thing with someone like Fahim.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He's a goofball.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But he's very intelligent.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So the mixture of intelligence and goofy, it's a gift.
Marc:Truly.
Marc:See, the difference between you two guys is that you have something to prove, and it's never going to go away.
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, I don't know, you know, I don't know if it's a control freak thing or what, but like, you know, you're going to win.
Guest:It's a fear thing.
Guest:No, but the way you're framing that is philosophically or I don't see it as a zero sum game.
Guest:I see it as a game of I don't want to be I don't want to work at OfficeMax again.
Guest:No, well, you're not going to.
Guest:See, the thing is, Mark, so many people have told me that.
Guest:I don't believe it.
Guest:And until I truly believe it.
Guest:Well, no, I get it.
Marc:I've made some money and I don't spend it because I don't want to.
Marc:I'm a comedian.
Marc:And, you know, it's like you have money in the bank.
Marc:You're like, oh, God, I better hold on to it.
Guest:I know, because they're going to take it away.
Guest:It's all going to go away.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And they're not going to take it away.
Marc:I'm just, you know, it's just going to, you know, work is not going to happen.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that's my thing is just embracing it.
Guest:So really, it's a starvation mentality.
Guest:It's not that.
Guest:A little bit.
Guest:A little bit.
Guest:I mean, if you want me to be honest, it's the thing of just like,
Guest:You don't want to be one of those guys of like, oh, yeah, that was the guy from the Daily.
Guest:What happened to him?
Guest:Whatever happened to him?
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's the winning thing.
Marc:I really do want different.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I really do want like different though.
Marc:That's not star vision mentality.
Marc:It's like, how do I stay relevant and keep fucking winning?
Marc:That's not like I hope I don't run out of money.
Marc:Artistically.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Artistically.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, yeah, I want.
Guest:You can't.
Guest:You have any control over the whatever happened.
Guest:I want Mark.
Guest:I want Mark to see the new show and go.
Guest:He's not as tight.
Guest:Oh, the kid kind of impressed me because your assessment of the first show is the way Paul Provenza assessed.
Guest:He goes, OK, it's cute.
Guest:You didn't go to prom.
Guest:I get it, kid.
Guest:No, that's not what I said.
Guest:But I want Provenza to see it now because you guys are a little bit older and I want Provenza to go, oh, he's got some fucking bars.
Marc:No, what I said is that you were calculating in the structure and you were emotionally manipulative.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And you knew it.
Marc:And the fact is that some of this shit was darker than you let on.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And that there was no way that this is how you controlled the emotional fucking history of your life.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And you picked your beats and structurally it was great.
Marc:And Mark's not interested in any of it.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:I loved it.
Marc:I got teared up.
Marc:I thought that was nice.
Marc:I'm an emotional guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But maybe from where I'm sitting, I've tried to do that kind of stuff.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I know the edge of emotion where people are going to go away or when it's sad.
Marc:And I'm playing with that shit now around the death of my girlfriend.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So I can take, I know these limits.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, I don't know how far in the construction of that stuff or what you had to really risk.
Marc:Can I tell you what it is?
Guest:And I actually think it's a strength, even though you're not seeing it that way.
Guest:No, I'm sure it is.
Guest:I mean, I'm not.
Guest:It's like it's like, what's the point?
Guest:Sure, sure, sure.
Guest:You're being artistically honest.
Guest:Now let's see it in terms of what do these 400 people think?
Guest:And I think one of the things that I learned at The Daily Show and my show was, okay, bring it home.
Guest:What is the point?
Guest:And I think too often comics, and you know this way better than I do because you've been doing this longer than me, sometimes abuse the audience, man.
Guest:Like it's one of those things where they truly don't give a fuck what they think.
Marc:We came up at a different time and there's different types of comics.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's guys that'll get that'll go up there, do two, two and a half, three hours.
Guest:They don't need to do three hours.
Guest:Of course.
Marc:But there's also just abuse the audience.
Marc:But there's also the idea of it's like, OK, so you spend a lot of time, you know, when you come up and people don't know who you are.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like and like we said at the beginning of this, you know, all these people at open mics, artists, artists and weirdos and whatever, is that all your responsibility is, is to figure out who you are on that stage and how to do the job.
Marc:It doesn't matter what you do within that, but it's your territory.
Marc:So in that process where no one knows who you are, either you're going to be the guy.
Marc:No.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In the long run.
Marc:I don't think it's a binary.
Marc:I'm that guy.
Marc:I'm not.
Guest:I'm not saying you.
Marc:I'm not saying you are.
Marc:I'm just saying that pushing the limits of an audience.
Marc:Like when you just said that, you know, when you say what do these four people want?
Marc:It's like, I don't I still talk about that.
Marc:It's like, is am I an entertainer?
Marc:Is that what I'm doing?
Marc:Am I an entertainer?
Marc:And I'm not criticizing you.
Marc:Look, your show was tight.
Marc:It was effective.
Marc:It had a message.
Marc:The punchline at the end was very clever.
Marc:It was good.
Marc:The story was good.
Marc:You lucked out with these life things and you organized them.
Marc:I'm not criticizing that.
Marc:I'm just saying that there is a big difference between what you put out in the world and who you are personally.
Marc:I got you.
Marc:And I understand that, too.
Marc:Hey, that's private, dude.
Marc:It's private.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So what responsibility do I have as an artist to fucking show them the real shit?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:My job is to make this thing.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there's also, you know, by the way, you saw 72 minute version of the show.
Guest:You know, it was it was clocking in at 100.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:So there were some moments where you're just like, OK, look, I'm sure, man.
Marc:There was some moments where you just really you were crying and you couldn't stop.
Marc:Yeah, I was.
Marc:And you're yelling and screaming.
Guest:Yeah, it's really balling, balling up there.
Guest:Did you do you ever do this?
Guest:Your shows say an hour 40 and you you honestly show it to your contemporaries and your friends and you go, just be honest.
Guest:And there's bits that you love that you're like, oh, I fucking love this.
Guest:Which show?
Guest:Any of your shows.
Guest:How many hours have you done at this point?
Guest:Probably five, six, seven?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And they go... Some of them are longer.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like an hour 90s.
Marc:Well, as I get older and, you know, as I sort of started to embrace structure a little more and not use kind of...
Marc:uh, improvising as a, as a cop out, you know, like the last three specials have been pretty tightly structured and two of them I worked with Lynn on and she, and I trusted her as a director, you know, she directed them.
Marc:So like, you know, we, and I know when something doesn't fit and when it does, like right now I'm trying to put together this hour, 10 hour, 15, it's coming in like hour 20 and
Marc:And I know like, you know, like, well, this can't be at the end.
Marc:And, you know, like, what are you trying to say with this?
Marc:And do you need to lighten this up?
Guest:Do you know what the ontological truth and reality is of her like of her passing and the way you've mourned it?
Guest:Like what what are you ultimately what's if you distill it?
Guest:What is it that you're trying to say?
Guest:Oh, about that?
Guest:Yeah, specifically.
Guest:That's what I start with.
Guest:The ontological truth.
Guest:What do you know?
Guest:Yeah, and if you boil it down to its essence, it's pure emotional espresso.
Marc:What is it that you are saying?
Marc:I know what it is.
Marc:it is you know and i know what i'm saying but what what becomes tricky in in the same with what you're doing and the balance you're making is like like this is a selfish pursuit we're in sure right so what we're talking about is our experience of anything like when you talk about your father or that woman that that jilted you in in high school or whatever you're going to have to weigh the the repercussions or or or you know you either you respect them or you don't
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then you got to balance that out.
Marc:At what point is this disrespectful?
Marc:And at what point do I not give a shit anymore?
Marc:Right.
Marc:So that always becomes the tricky part about dealing with anger, grief, loss or whatever.
Marc:You don't want to disrespect the person and you don't want to be too sad.
Marc:But the ontological truth is like I was learning how to love somebody for the first time in my life.
Marc:And that person died.
Guest:All right.
Marc:And like I spent my life, you know, not being ready for that or able to do that because of how I was brought up and all those are different ontological truth.
Marc:So, you know, how do I deal with that and how do I move on?
Marc:So that's what that is.
Marc:Do I exist in an emotional space with another person again ever in the way that I was going to happen?
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Because I wasn't that great before her.
Marc:So that's that ontological truth.
Marc:So like balancing jokes about that and feeling the need to talk about them is just because that's what I do.
Marc:I talk about myself.
Marc:Like it's very hard for me.
Marc:Like the gift that you have that if I envy anything is to be general about things.
Marc:You know, like for me, it's all got to go through me first.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, my observational capacity is limited to my emotional interaction.
Guest:Yeah, but you're talking about a deeply specific moment.
Guest:But the umbrella is mourning.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And grief.
Guest:And grief, for sure.
Guest:Like, it's incredibly like...
Guest:Human.
Guest:Yeah, human.
Guest:And as you're saying, general.
Guest:But I'm like, what are you talking about?
Marc:I'm telling you, man, this is the first time in my life.
Marc:I've never gotten more people saying that I'm relatable in my life when it comes down to this stuff.
Marc:And so is yours.
Marc:But I'm just saying that I get nervous when I start doing cultural criticism or even political jokes because I can do them well.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:But in my mind, it's like someone else is doing this.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:It's like this is going to be done.
Marc:Yeah, and if you want to log on Twitter, you can get plenty of those things.
Guest:Sure, right, yeah.
Marc:And it's sort of like I got to avoid that.
Marc:Like that was my whole point in my shift around doing the podcast and doing comedy the way I do it is like if I talk about myself, no one can have that.
Marc:Correct.
Marc:Yeah, so that's the way to go.
Marc:So wait, now-
Marc:So who did you lock on to?
Marc:Who were the big lessons?
Marc:Who did you end up opening for to get your chops in place?
Marc:When did you start to realize how to fulfill your ambition in terms of performing?
Marc:Did you open for Russell?
Guest:Yeah, Russell was super sweet.
Guest:He let me open for him.
Guest:Even guys like Arch Barker were really kind.
Guest:But I think I quickly realized none of these guys have the answer.
Guest:Every headliner, whether it's Kamau or Arge or Russell or whoever I'd open for who came to town, you would try to be like, do you have the unlock code?
Guest:Of what?
Guest:Of success?
Guest:How do you earn a living in this business?
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a real thing, man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How do you have health insurance?
Guest:How do you have a house?
Guest:I'm sitting in a house.
Guest:Believe me, I ask the same questions forever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Can you believe this, Mark?
Guest:As tight as you think I am, I don't even own property.
Guest:I'm still renting.
Guest:I'm that afraid.
Guest:It's stupid, Mark.
Guest:That's interesting.
Guest:Why is there a drop off in intelligence there?
Guest:I know.
Guest:But what I'm saying is there is such a deep, hey, this industry is so treacherous and unknown and nothing is guaranteed.
Guest:Hey, just keep your wits about you and keep the cash and the mattress because you never know.
Guest:No, I get that.
Guest:I understand that.
Guest:But all these lessons are lessons you have to learn as an adult.
Guest:Correct.
Guest:And you have to learn it for yourself.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Furthermore, your path is different than my path.
Guest:It's different than Ali's path.
Guest:It's different than everybody's path.
Guest:You know what I'm saying?
Marc:And that's the thing I'm also realizing.
Marc:I'm a plotter.
Marc:I'm a chipper away-er.
Marc:I just keep pushing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, yeah, I don't, it's a miracle that I, you know, it was a, you know, it's the second half, dude.
Marc:It wasn't looking good.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There was no, there was no daily show moment.
Marc:Do you feel like it's all going to be okay, though?
Guest:I mean, when Obama's sitting in the cat ranch, I'm sure you feel like it's going to be all right.
Marc:No.
Marc:What, you mean financially and everything?
Marc:Yeah.
No, no.
Marc:No, because- You still fear it's gonna- Not now, but I did.
Marc:I've saved some money and this thing turned out to be better than we all thought.
Marc:And I can do the road and make some money doing TV and I'm acting and shit.
Marc:But I know that I have money saved and I know that I don't have any debt and I don't have a family.
Marc:So what it becomes now for me is like, well, what do you want to do with your fucking life then?
Marc:How do you find joy?
Guest:What's the point of all this?
Marc:And what's the answer?
Marc:It's coming.
Marc:I like to cook, play some guitar.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, fuck.
Marc:Make chicken stock.
Marc:Well, yeah, I'll do that.
Marc:I love to.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It keeps me distracted.
Marc:It keeps the darkness away.
Guest:You don't want family, right?
Guest:Do you want a family?
Guest:Not really.
Guest:Not really.
Marc:You know, I'm okay.
Marc:You know, I'm all right.
Marc:All right.
Marc:But what about.
Marc:So with you, though.
Marc:Even after The Daily Show, even after, you know, you've got some money stashed, but you built a life.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I got a wife.
Guest:I got two kids.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I have a life.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You weren't even that big a standup when you got The Daily Show.
Marc:No.
Marc:You just kind of, you know, John liked you.
Guest:No.
Guest:I had put together, you know, shout out to Aristotle.
Guest:We put together an audition tape.
Guest:I really thought I could be good on this thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And we watched it.
Guest:I watched it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had been making kind of these videos that were somewhat taking off online.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:A few hundred thousand views where I would like go to camera one and I would kind of analyze something that was happening that week.
Guest:And Aristotle would shoot them and we'd edit them and they'd put them out.
Guest:And then, you know, when Michael Che left to go back to SNL, there was an opening.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I really felt
Guest:I can do this.
Guest:And so I just gunned for it.
Guest:And I gotta give Al credit.
Guest:I ran into Al at the Pasadena Ice House and I said, what should I do?
Guest:And he said, listen, man, when you're corresponding on the show, you're gonna have to do a ton of field pieces.
Guest:So I shot my own field piece and I submitted my audition.
Marc:So it was a bigger deal than you let on on the special.
Marc:Huge.
Marc:Like, you know, I mean, I'm telling the story.
Marc:I make it a big fucking deal in the special, but it was an even bigger.
Marc:But like the prep of it, like in the special, you didn't go through.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You were, you know, you were locked in gunning for it.
Guest:I go, look, man, I'm not a sick.
Guest:I mean, I was I didn't book the sitcom again.
Guest:I was told the rule was you go book a sitcom.
Marc:I can't.
Marc:I never did.
Marc:Yeah, I didn't.
Guest:You know what's so funny about the rules is that there is no such fucking thing as the rules.
Guest:No, but back in the day.
Marc:That was like the mind.
Marc:But that was vague.
Marc:Back in the day, the idea was you get your point of view and then you get a deal to develop a show around you.
Marc:That was the model for the big success.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Until somebody broke that rule again.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Until you get, well, your generation, you know, it's different.
Marc:I mean, that rule on some level even holds up through Louis and through everybody else.
Guest:But you broke the rule in 2011.
Guest:I don't think you can see yourself.
Guest:Every open micer was listening to the pot.
Guest:It still is.
Guest:What?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:know what this is the louis ck part four interview yeah right oh mark and louis are gonna really hash why you sitting down with robin williams and oh yeah he's in san francisco and he's talking about his heart yeah do you understand you were breaking the that's right yeah yeah fine right but that wasn't like i wasn't gonna make a half a billion dollars in syndication i wasn't making any money i don't know mark when you're doing these me undies drops we don't know how much money oh it's a billion dollars buddy
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what was the other one?
Marc:The porno.
Guest:What was that one?
Marc:What were those first ones?
Marc:How can I not remember that?
Marc:We only had like one.
Marc:It was like adult toys.
Marc:Whatever.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Pow.
Marc:They weren't even paying.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Like I changed your entire business and they were carryovers from a streaming show that didn't work.
Guest:But anyways, I get your point.
Guest:You break the rules.
Guest:You don't know you were breaking the rules at the time.
Guest:I didn't know me and Ari and Fahim and we were breaking the rules at the time.
Guest:But
Guest:We were at the cusp of a new thing.
Guest:Yeah, you're just breaking new ground.
Guest:But that is exciting as an artist.
Marc:That's what you want to do.
Marc:I had no expectations.
Marc:I was desperate, and we didn't know how to make money.
Guest:So that was the moment.
Guest:They saw it.
Guest:I screen tested it.
Guest:And yeah, having that co-sign in New York City changed my life.
Guest:And then having a co-sign when I was doing the one-man show from Colin Quinn, Colin got me in at the cellar, and that changed my life.
Guest:And I owe Colin Quinn a lot.
Guest:I owe both of those guys a lot.
Guest:Yep.
Marc:But, uh, all right.
Marc:So you do how long on the daily show?
Guest:I do about four years there.
Guest:Four years.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I did the John years.
Guest:I did some of the Trevor years and then I do the correspondence dinner and it kind of felt time like, okay, it's time for me to, to move on and maybe make your move to do my own thing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And when did you do the show within this special?
Guest:2017.
Guest:So after?
Guest:It was like one of my last years at The Daily Show.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So things were really clicking in 2017, 2018 for me.
Marc:And you saw that as almost like an introduction to the whole you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Publicly.
Marc:You had the opportunity.
Marc:You had the window.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, honestly, it was the first time.
Guest:And these windows are real in life, man.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:It was the first time.
Guest:And you're lucky to get them.
Guest:Extremely lucky.
Marc:And if you don't go, if you don't take them, that's the biggest regret.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:If you can make a break, make it.
Guest:You get the call.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's like, hey, man, I know what it's like to send the tape in to Conan and not hear back.
Guest:I know what that's like.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I know what it's like to send the tape in to Montreal.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I still have the Vimeo links.
Guest:Believe me, I know.
Guest:V9, it says V9.
Marc:I watch every one of my peers become huge successes.
Marc:And to this day, I still have that part of me.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah, where it's just sort of like, when do I get to do the thing?
Guest:So funny.
Guest:Why can't I do that?
Guest:So I get the call and I said, look, I actually do have an idea and an opinion on what I would want my show to be.
Guest:To Netflix.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I shot my own proof of concept and kind of did it again.
Guest:Who's Patriot?
Guest:Patriot.
Guest:But you'd already done the special with them.
Guest:I'd already done the special.
Guest:So they knew you.
Guest:You're on the radar.
Marc:They liked you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But every time, look.
Guest:Unique property.
Guest:Look, even with Homecoming King, I shot my own mini special at Cherry Lane Theater when I was doing it off-Broadway.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And showed it to them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then they go, okay, I see it.
Guest:You showed it to Robbie?
Guest:At the time, Kristen Zollner, and she believed in it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She greenlit it.
Guest:I do owe her a lot.
Guest:Like, Kristen saw it and was like, oh, I think this is really special.
Guest:Robbie wasn't there at the time.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then in 2018 with Patriot Act, I showed it to Bella Bejeria, and she loved it too, and she showed it to Ted, and they liked it.
Guest:And you also had that appeal that they want.
Guest:which is global.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:There's this real move there.
Marc:They really want the audience- Let's give it a try, yeah.
Guest:Saudi Arabia to enjoy this.
Guest:Let's see how it comes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:No, but they were just like, they saw the proof of concept, they saw the DNA in it, and I think they were like- Of Patriot.
Guest:Yeah, because I shot it.
Guest:I put up the money myself.
Guest:We shot it over at the old Al Jazeera America Studios RIP.
Guest:They had gone out of business, 34th and 8th.
Guest:And we went in.
Guest:I brokered a deal with the room.
Guest:I go, hey, can I just shoot something here?
Guest:Can I use the cameras?
Guest:And those are the moments I'm proud of the most.
Guest:I'm like, hey, man, nobody told you to do this.
Guest:No booker called you down and said, hey, kid, why don't you do it?
Guest:No, I really had to do what my parents did when they came here.
Guest:I'm like, no.
Guest:Right.
Guest:We're going to get this cab medallion or we're going to open up.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But also you knew outside of the immigrant experience, you knew that there was a right of ownership there and that, you know, you had full control of the thing.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:It wasn't just you weren't coming off the boat saying like, I guess we got a lot of people that are getting medallions.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, you were literally saying like, I want to fucking have control of this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it's I I'm not I would be lying to you if I told you even my new show right now, like.
Guest:I bought the stage.
Guest:I fucking bought the stage.
Guest:Like, it's this big-ass stage.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's the Visa, Wells Fargo account.
Guest:Here it is.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, Mark, for- I do that, too.
Guest:But for how long did we assume that we're like, no, no, no, the exec is going to come down, and he's going to tell you to write the check.
Guest:But your generation, but you assume that?
Guest:Dude, they're-
Guest:How many comics have you talked to on the show where they're just, you know, this person doesn't like me.
Guest:I'm like, what are you talking about?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What the fuck are you actually talking about?
Guest:Right.
Marc:Well, no, you can't.
Marc:You know, you after a certain point, you especially if you're not successful or you're not getting any traction, you can't rely on any of anybody because they don't know anything.
Marc:A lot of them.
Marc:They will know if they can take a bet on you knowing they won't lose, they'll take it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you have to create leverage.
Marc:And that's not on anybody but us.
Marc:Yeah, but I don't think in those terms.
Marc:It's all desperation for me.
Guest:Have you had Chris Rock on the show?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You've had Rock on the show?
Guest:Yeah, a long time ago.
Guest:I mean, Rock loves giving advice.
Guest:He loves giving me advice.
Guest:And Rock is always like, man, listen.
Guest:He said this about his own career.
Guest:He's like, man, I've outlasted all these guys.
Guest:I remember all the big execs that would knight you.
Guest:And he's like, I've been here longer than all of them.
Guest:And for him to say it that way, then it's like, well, the only consistent variable here is you.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And I'm a stubborn idiot.
Marc:And the one thing I've known over time are my limitations.
Marc:And what do I really expect?
Marc:When I say there's still things I would have done, I don't know that I'm cut out for certain things.
Marc:And I have to admit that to myself.
Marc:Like there are certain jobs that comics do.
Marc:Like to do that correspondence dinner, it would be mad making for me.
Marc:Why?
Marc:It would make me melt down because I don't write like that.
Marc:I'd have to hire the right writers.
Marc:I'd really have to get into a place.
Marc:Like I'm really my own thing that has to fit somewhere.
Guest:Doesn't the opportunity excite you?
Guest:Like when I saw you in The Joker.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I was like, that's fucking cool, man.
Guest:Do a scene with De Niro?
Guest:It's great.
Guest:But the opportunity of it, man.
Guest:Come on, Mark.
Guest:Sometimes as angry as you get, you have to sit back and go, holy fuck, New Mexico Mark.
Guest:You were in fucking Albuquerque, New Mexico.
Guest:He's doing a scene with Bobby De Niro.
Marc:No, I love that.
Marc:No, no, that's all.
Marc:I'm just talking specifically about the comic job of doing a corporate gig or doing that specific.
Guest:But it doesn't make you go crazy that you're like,
Guest:I'm making fun of the president of the United States of America.
Marc:I mean, I get all that.
Marc:But I'm just saying, the only example I'm making to you is that there are some gigs that like, and it happens.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Where I'm just sort of like, you know, that would, I don't think I can handle it.
Guest:Yeah, it would suck.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:I get it.
Marc:It's not that it would suck.
Guest:For you.
Guest:It would just make me crazy.
Guest:Yeah, for you.
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:And that keeps me at a certain place.
Marc:Like, I'm not out for, I'm not out to win the world.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:You know, like there's some people that just have that.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Like, you know, Russell won the world.
Marc:Kevin Hartz is going to win the world.
Marc:Maybe you're going to win the world.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Who knows, right?
Guest:But I got to loosen up a little bit before that.
Marc:Well, tell me about this.
Marc:The one thing I'm curious about, though, is when you shifted the Patriot Act out of The Daily Show.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That this was not a comedy writing bunch.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I mean, they weren't a bunch of comics or anything.
Marc:They were mostly news people.
Marc:No, it was a hybrid.
Guest:We had a full writer's room.
Guest:We had a full newsroom.
Guest:It was a combo.
Guest:It was.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Is that the way The Daily Show is?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like any of these shows.
Guest:Last week, tonight, all of them have kind of two different departments.
Guest:You have the pitch news people that are like, hey, here's the story.
Guest:Here's the raw material.
Guest:Now you have to distill this down and make it funny within 21 minutes.
Guest:But yeah, you're distilling these huge research books and being like, okay, how do I make 23 or 24 minutes out of it?
Marc:So you got people who are deciding what the relevant news stories are for the week.
Marc:Correct.
Marc:And then you have joke guys.
Guest:Correct.
Guest:Joke slash structure guys.
Guest:And so this is a new development too, Mark.
Guest:Like...
Guest:A lot of those guys that came from the Daily Show.
Guest:And women.
Guest:And women, guys and gals.
Guest:But you have the seven and a half minute act one.
Guest:But now with these new types of shows, they've been stretched out into 28 minutes.
Guest:One topic even.
Guest:One topic sometimes.
Guest:Or in the case of our show, we would do that and I'd bounce back and forth between field and then come back.
Guest:So yeah, but it's a lot of fucking work.
Guest:But where did you draw the people from?
Guest:How did you staff?
Guest:You know, in New York that you have, there's the whole- But a lot of them were like journalists too?
Guest:Like I don't know how they work.
Guest:Like I didn't ever- Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Some of them came from previous, yeah, outlets.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:AP, Reuters.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So they get the idea of just like, okay, hey, we're going to talk about student loan debt.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:They're like, yeah, here's the relevant- They break it down.
Guest:Yeah, here's the relevant information that you need.
Guest:Then what we do as comics, I go, so what's the take?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What's the take?
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:So, like, you can read... How do you land it?
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Articles about, we need to break up Amazon.
Guest:Sure, sure, sure.
Guest:Amazon's a monopoly.
Guest:Sure, right.
Guest:And I distill it down into the corp take.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, I'm lazier than I am.
Guest:So, when... So, I need the government to save me from myself.
Guest:That's the comedy take.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because I use Amazon.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Daddy needs diapers and bell peppers.
Guest:Sure, of course.
Guest:So... Yeah.
Marc:Because, like, I don't know how they work, and, you know, Stuart and I are not cool.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:But, so I don't know how any of that works.
Marc:So, ultimately...
Marc:Like, and I've never written on one of these shows.
Marc:I've, I've just done, you know, uh, you know, scripted show.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you just sit there like all these, like once you break it all down, then, you know, you all sit there and they pitch to you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I come in with a ton of stuff too, that I'm like,
Guest:What the fuck is up with student loan debt?
Guest:Why is it like $12 trillion?
Guest:Every week.
Guest:Yeah, I'll come in kind of with a head full of steam of just like, I want to talk about this, this, this, this, and this, and then we'll map it out to be like, okay, how long will it take us to research it?
Guest:One thing I was really passionate about was my family loves cricket.
Guest:People around the world love cricket, but there's a ton of corruption in cricket.
Guest:I'm like, oh, yeah, it's wild.
Guest:It's great.
Guest:And there's such great characters in it.
Guest:Cricket.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:On some level, that's playing to a bigger audience, which is good.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Or just like things that I give a shit about.
Guest:Like, why do I have to care about everything?
Guest:No, no, no.
Marc:I'm just saying about the market.
Marc:Because I know that the show pissed off country.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, like, and that's something that's fundamentally unique in what you were doing.
Marc:You weren't just dealing with this, you know, cultural tapestry of whatever the fuck's going on in America politically.
Guest:Did you find it fulfilling versus my show for you to do your own show called Marin?
Marc:It's okay.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, like, I think- Like, compared to that, like, what's that like?
Marc:Well, I mean, I was drawing from my life again.
Marc:I was working with writers and we were doing some elevated version of my life.
Marc:I think that the last season was kind of interesting.
Marc:I would have liked to have had, you know, I made a mistake and I had a very limited writing staff.
Marc:They were good people, but I wasn't diversified.
Marc:I didn't have women in there.
Marc:What does the mistake mean specifically?
Marc:Well, I think that the points of view in relation to what could have happened in terms of the stories, I was a little myopic.
Marc:Gotcha.
Marc:Given they were my points, that was my place.
Marc:But if you watch something like Aziz's show where you have many voices, my show wasn't really like that.
Guest:It was really following a singular POV.
Marc:Yeah, but I think that it could have been, it was good, but I don't want to do me anymore.
Marc:Why?
Marc:Because you did it.
Marc:You're like, I did it?
Marc:Now we're working on a show for, it looks like it's about to, we're about to sell a show, me and the writer, my friend Sam.
Marc:And it's different.
Marc:And it's a bigger, broader show.
Marc:So you're saying you do know how to collaborate?
Marc:No, I do.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I mean, yeah, of course, I learned how to do that when I wrote a show.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do you know how to collaborate?
Marc:A little bit.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:But like I talked to David Chang the other day.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now, there's a guy who's got, you know, he's carrying a big load upstairs and you got a little bit of pushback for the work environment that you ran.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Did you deal with that?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, what's wild is people were pissed off.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I found out much later.
Guest:And when we found out, it was something we took super seriously.
Guest:And it was specifically in regards to a couple people.
Guest:Like people said there was a toxic environment.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:With someone in their department.
Guest:People were not getting along in that specific department.
Guest:And it's one of those things you take super seriously.
Guest:And it was in regards to people's tone, posture, demeanor, the way they would, you know.
Guest:Handle other people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Collaborate.
Guest:Collaborate with one another.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think that's the interesting thing.
Guest:And you know this as someone who runs a show.
Guest:That is one of the things that we are now starting to really traverse with.
Guest:Of like, hey, how do people creatively disagree with one another?
Guest:Without being a dick.
Guest:Correct.
Guest:Or being abusive.
Guest:Correct.
Guest:Or being a tyrant.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And how do people...
Guest:What jokes, what takes, what things ultimately make it on the show?
Guest:How do you decide what's going to be on the show?
Guest:The process.
Guest:There's always going to be creative tension on collaborative teams like that.
Marc:So did you have to apologize where amends is made?
Marc:What happened?
Marc:With your show.
Guest:Well, unfortunately, the show was over by the time everybody... I mean, still apologize, right?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I wish those... You know what I really wish is I really wish the folks who disagreed with one another, there was an opportunity.
Guest:Because remember, this all happened during COVID.
Guest:Had an opportunity to come together and be like, hey... Let's work it out.
Guest:Yeah, let's work this out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So one of the things that also is really interesting that I've learned is...
Marc:hey is the internet a good place for people to come together and work out personal disagreements specifically no but you get it mark like that that's that's the one thing no i get it but like but no you mean the internet in terms of like zoom meetings or you mean yeah hashing things out both zoom meetings and hashing things out publicly or or just you're not talking about the internet as in twitter because that's no place to hash out personal
Marc:Well, that's where things are being hashed out now, either through Zoom meetings.
Marc:Well, that's where the shit has started.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So the question is, what's the responsibility as a creator?
Marc:You do have to issue some sort of public recognition or you don't.
Marc:Those are the options.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Do I cop to this or do I not?
Marc:Right.
Marc:And if I'm going to cop to it, do I do it publicly or do I call these people?
Marc:Right.
Guest:I mean, yeah, those are questions.
Guest:And I think that for me...
Guest:The thing that I've had to learn as a leader, someone who's on set all the time, is at any given point, there's going to be 100 plus people on set.
Guest:If I'm not in the room and people are creatively disagreeing, how do I make sure as I go forward?
Guest:And now I'm working on different sets that are being led by different people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How do you adjudicate those things and make sure everybody's getting along?
Guest:How do you?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I don't have the answer.
Guest:But it's one of those things where you're just like, you're learning and growing.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Have you been on sets that were more magnanimous in the sense of, like, because now, like, I know that when I did Glow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There's a very diverse set, both gender-wise and ethnicity-wise.
Marc:And there was a predisposition to respect that we knew this was the endeavor.
Marc:That it was intrinsic to the endeavor.
Marc:That gender and ethnicity and that type of diversity, this was a safe place and it was embraced no matter what.
Marc:And that was part of the nature of that show.
Marc:right so and then after the fact some people were like i didn't feel that way i don't know is that true yeah a couple people came out and were like hey i didn't i didn't necessarily feel that way i was on the show so these conversations oh no that was different that was uh i think those were right in the writing correct i'm more thinking about like the the grips everybody in the yeah yeah i think that like the people that felt misrepresented you know didn't get big enough for it's a good cast i get it correct so how do you
Guest:But that's the goal, right?
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And so the disagreements fundamentally were in regards to creative.
Guest:Hey, why is this pitch not going through?
Guest:I feel like this person in my department is listening to me.
Marc:These are things where- But do you feel like, was there something you learned?
Marc:As you head into this new show, you have kids now.
Marc:Is there behavior that either you're carrying with you from your childhood or from your experience in being a leader that you're like, I gotta fucking change this or work on this.
Marc:I don't wanna be the same as my father was in these certain ways.
Marc:I don't wanna make the same mistakes again.
Marc:Do you have that stuff?
Guest:Sure, I think the biggest thing that I've probably learned in this show, now this new show that I'm doing,
Guest:The group is so much smaller.
Guest:It's only me, a lighting designer, a stage designer, a director.
Guest:But I'm talking about in your life.
Marc:Oh, in my life.
Marc:Like in your life, as you continue to create and you continue to collaborate, now you have a family.
Marc:Are you consciously saying, I'm not going to do this because- You know the big realization I've had, man?
Guest:So I got, you know, I'm married.
Guest:I have two kids.
Guest:I have a three-year-old, one-year-old.
Guest:One of the biggest things that I've learned is like, and tell me what you think about this.
Guest:It's something along the lines of, you know, I may not be able to change the world, but I can change my world.
Guest:Specifically the agency I have in regards to like the way I interact with you, the way I interact with my wife, my kids.
Guest:And those are the things that I can actively really change.
Marc:And what are some of those things that you deal with every day where you're like, I got to not do this.
Marc:I got to do this.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, do you have moments with your kids where you're like, oh, I don't.
Guest:Accountability, reliability, coming through in ways that I really mean.
Guest:Like if I promise being on my wife, hey, I'm going to do this.
Guest:Anger.
Guest:I'm going to be back.
Guest:Do I have anger?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:Is that something you have to manage?
Yeah.
Guest:The biggest thing, man, is energy, man.
Guest:Like it's really like there's so many people and things that are pulling me in a million different directions.
Marc:So you have to maintain a certain compartmentalization.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And not get to the point where you're like, fuck.
Guest:Correct.
Guest:Correct.
Guest:But it's ultimately like, and this is something that I've been thinking about a lot.
Guest:This age that we live in where we're all kind of mini media companies and all like mini PR machines is signaling being a good person versus actually being a good person.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:That's sort of like.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, that's the big thing.
Marc:Like when when you get criticism and you're, you know, a representative of a progressive state of mind and also on a personal level, we're talking about like the act and the personal life.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You know, there is those two worlds.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You know, and that's the thing that I, what I've tried to do is go, I want to take full responsibility for everything, especially with my family.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Hey, am I a good husband?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Am I a good son?
Guest:Am I a good friend?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Ask for him, yo, is he a good guy?
Guest:Like, you know him.
Guest:He's like my brother.
Guest:You know what I'm saying?
Guest:Yeah, he's going to say you're a good guy.
Guest:hey sometimes you know this you've known comics a long time i know like hey man i know mark sure like i actually know mark but like i'll say you know is hasan a good guy he'll be like yeah he's a great guy i'm like but he's kind of like no sometimes i mean you could probably chip it away and that'll be real but that'll be real and that's a fair assessment yeah versus you you have like these guys that are just like no no great guy yeah everything's being everything is being signal on instagram a certain way and then they're like
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He runs a show and he doesn't pay comics.
Guest:You're like, what the fuck?
Guest:Yeah, I know that guy.
Guest:He's one of those guys.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I'm those are the things that I think I'm like trying to work on.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That it's like, no, that's what actually matters.
Guest:So I know that sounds like trite, but it's true.
Marc:No, no, it's not because it all it all builds on it.
Marc:I know what my specific fucking shortcomings are, what my problems are, and what I've had to work on, because I've seen real-world consequences of my behavior.
Guest:Yeah, and you've been married, you've been in relationships.
Guest:But you know that you're like, Hey, their assessment of me perhaps is somewhat, they really do know me.
Guest:I've been an asshole.
Guest:There's no doubt.
Marc:Like a colossal asshole.
Marc:And I, you know, but you know, life grinds it down.
Marc:Karma grinds you down.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:You know, humility comes, you know, you just, you know, it's nice when it's gradual and not in one swift action.
Marc:Right.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:You have been humbled.
Marc:You fuck.
Marc:You don't, it's better if it just happens subtly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Good talking to you, man.
Marc:Good talking to you, man.
Marc:So this is for the tour.
Marc:You're heading out.
Guest:I'm on tour.
Marc:How are you going to balance the family that you go back?
Marc:You're going back and forth?
Guest:I go back and forth, man.
Guest:That's what I'm talking about.
Guest:Where you're like, how are you feeling?
Marc:I'm exhausted, man.
Marc:But you do like, what are you doing?
Marc:One, two night runs, three night runs, and then you go home?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then November, I'm gone all of November.
Guest:So I'm going to be on the tour bus, and that's going to be wild.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:You're doing the tour bus?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:All theaters?
Guest:One-nighters.
Guest:Theaters.
Guest:And some one-nighters.
Guest:LA, we're going to do a sit-down.
Guest:We're here for multiple nights.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:What theater here?
Guest:Microsoft Theater.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Where's that?
Guest:The one in downtown LA.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Nice.
Marc:It's nice.
Guest:So you're going to do two shows?
Guest:I'm going to do two shows, yeah.
Guest:All right, buddy.
Guest:Yeah, maybe Mark's going to be there.
Marc:Well, get me.
Marc:I'll come down.
Marc:I'll come down.
Marc:Yeah, for real?
Marc:Yeah, we'll work it out.
Marc:We'll work it out?
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right, buddy.
Marc:Hassan Minhaj, ladies and gentlemen.
Marc:That was a rapid-paced thing, huh?
Marc:That was a... I had to take a break after that one.
Marc:I was exhausted.
Marc:You can get tickets for his King's Jester tour dates at his website.
Marc:There's no tone like this guitar tone.
Marc:Cranked champ.
Marc:Old Fender champ, hot-rodded by the legendary Austin Hooks.
Marc:Straight in.
Marc:The Stratocaster.
Marc:Straight in.
Marc:My Carlos Ruben Lopez Jr.
Marc:Masterbuilt Stratocaster.
Stratocaster.
Thank you.
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey and LaFonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.