Episode 1269 - Taraji P. Henson
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast, WTF.
Marc:Welcome to it.
Marc:I hope everyone is well.
Marc:Are you well?
Marc:I got to be honest with you.
Marc:Yesterday, it was beautiful weather.
Marc:Makes a big difference.
Marc:Got a little cooler.
Marc:I mean, you know, Los Angeles, it's not going to be fall.
Marc:There's not going to be any changing colors.
Marc:I mean, cool is like...
Marc:High 60s.
Marc:Cool in LA is like New York in the spring.
Marc:It's just nice.
Marc:It's kind of perfect weather.
Marc:And it made me feel better.
Marc:And I took a break yesterday.
Marc:Yeah, man, I have just been beating the shit out of myself trying to re-engage.
Marc:With the patterns of my life that are positive when I'm home after being on the road for so long, as I've mentioned before, not not that I'm looking for sympathy or deserve any for fighting, pushing back the pudge that I put on.
Marc:But I don't know.
Marc:Maybe I'm getting old.
Marc:I maybe I'm getting old.
Marc:Because I worked out pretty hard three times last week.
Marc:I walked up, hiked that mountain three times.
Marc:And by yesterday, Sunday, I was broken, man.
Marc:I was a broken man.
Marc:All this effort I'm putting into making myself feel better is causing me physical pain that I refuse to acknowledge as being the cause.
Marc:I mean, I went to an acupuncturist, and I don't do that.
Marc:But my buddy Dan, his wife Jen, is an acupuncturist.
Marc:And I'm like, all right, I'll try it, man.
Marc:Both my shoulders hurt.
Marc:My neck hurts.
Marc:My lower back is fucked.
Marc:My big toes are a mess.
Marc:And the shoulder thing is, it's all self-generated.
Marc:But I'll try it, right?
Marc:I did.
Marc:I did.
Marc:And she did gua sha on me.
Marc:You ever had gua sha?
Marc:You know what gua sha is?
Marc:Today on the show, I talked to Taraji P. Henson, who I love.
Marc:Who I love.
Marc:Who doesn't love her?
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Baby Boy is one of my favorite fucking movies.
Marc:You may know her as Cookie from Empire or from Hustle and Flow or Hidden Figures.
Marc:And Baby Boy, yeah, Baby Boy.
Marc:Fucking masterpiece.
Marc:She's also an advocate for mental health awareness.
Marc:She started a foundation named after her father, the Boris Lawrence Henson Foundation, to focus on getting mental health resources to people with limited access to them.
Marc:She has a show on Facebook Watch called Peace of Mind with Taraji that focuses on mental health issues, particularly within the black community.
Marc:But I was just thrilled to talk to her because I just... She's so great.
Marc:Great actress.
Marc:And I had a fun time talking to her.
Marc:And you'll hear that.
Marc:So, yeah, man.
Marc:I'm just... I guess I'm getting old.
Marc:I'm 58 now.
Marc:But my shoulders are hurting because I don't... And also, I'm stubborn.
Marc:It's weird.
Marc:I've had massages in my life.
Marc:I've been to acupuncture once or twice in my life.
Marc:But I don't...
Marc:Really consider it that much.
Marc:I don't know why that is in my mind.
Marc:You know, I just don't think these things are effective and they should be something you do with regularity.
Marc:I mean, you know, you can't put all of your pain in one basket.
Marc:But but, you know, you should try stuff and massage.
Marc:Who wouldn't like to get a massage every week?
Marc:But I just don't do it.
Marc:And I guess I should do it because I need some fucking body work, man.
Marc:I need some help.
Marc:I got these horrible shoulder pains.
Marc:I think it's from I think I injured them when I shifted my exercise routine to include pull ups and stuff.
Marc:And then I just irritated it by doing sort of poorly formed downward dogs.
Marc:And now it's like just kind of chronic shoulder pain.
Marc:Some days I think it's a heart attack.
Marc:Some days I think I don't know.
Marc:what you know a joint cancer arthritis what you whatever but my energy is good but i did i went to see jen uh jen black she's at uh i think it's called highland holistics and she's a great practitioner of these things these eastern ideas the acupuncture she did the gua sha gua sha no uh no cupping gua sha
Marc:And she showed me, I don't understand Eastern medicine, really.
Marc:My first wife had a sickness that was pretty bad and very, it was a meningitis sickness.
Marc:And in recovery from it, she went to an Eastern practitioner, a Chinese herbalist, and was on the tea, like hardcore, not powder, but like, you know, the bugs and roots and plants and things.
Yeah.
Marc:And the smell for like a year.
Marc:And there was part of me that's sort of like, well, I mean, you know, how are you going to know if anything's working if the prescription is do this for a year and we'll see how you feel?
Marc:I mean, the body is a miraculous bit of business in terms of its regeneration and recuperation and recovery potential.
Marc:So how are you really going to say like, yeah, that that stuff really changed my life after a year?
Marc:Don't know.
Marc:Don't know if you can hinge it to that.
Marc:So I've always been skeptical.
Marc:I've done acupuncture before.
Marc:I've gotten the tax in my ears.
Marc:There's actually a TV appearance I did years ago, I think, on Paul Provenza's show, Comics Only, where I have the tax in my ears to quit smoking.
Marc:I remember because Hicks was there shooting one.
Marc:I don't think we were on the same show together.
Marc:But he's sitting there puffing away.
Marc:And I told him I had the tax in my ears.
Marc:He goes, that work.
Marc:I'm like, I don't know.
Marc:I guess we'll see.
Marc:It didn't.
Marc:But I got to try something because the fear is there's ways to take care of yourself without getting cut.
Marc:Right.
Marc:The idea is you go if I went to a orthopedic or a shoulder guy.
Marc:You know that two things could happen.
Marc:Either you could say like, you know, well, you ripped this or you did that.
Marc:You know, don't exercise for two weeks or a month.
Marc:And I don't want to hear that because I want to keep exercising.
Marc:I'll keep hurting myself because I'm a fucking idiot.
Marc:Or you'll hear.
Marc:Yeah, we're going to have to go in there and do an exploratory.
Marc:procedure and then maybe uh a little surgery a little cut in here a little cut there and then you're fucked and then you like in my age you don't know if you ever recover from anything like if you like i i know guys got back surgery in their 60s regret it but this is how i grew up that's the other problem i grew up with a western medical practitioner my father was an orthopedic surgeon
Marc:And I grew up to believe that, you know, medicine and surgery and these guys, mostly guys, these surgeons and doctors who were his friends and coworkers where they knew how to fix people, but they don't always.
Marc:I think it's a brain changing thing that, you know, kind of put it in my head.
Marc:When I went, my dad wanted to go, he had to see how to do a procedure on a hip, I think.
Marc:So he had them line up a screening room at the hospital.
Marc:That's how you had to do it back in the day.
Marc:And I was a kid.
Marc:He said, come, come with me to this movie.
Marc:I got to watch about this procedure.
Marc:And I went to watch this movie with him about some surgical procedure.
Marc:And it was like hammers and saws and fucking, I mean, I couldn't fucking believe it.
Marc:They opened a guy up and they would pound and nails into him.
Marc:It looked like I'm like, holy fuck, this is crazy.
Marc:saws and hammers and drills but i guess you know you got to put pins in you got to put pins and whatever the fuck that is but i got it in my head that this is the only way something extreme something pharmaceutical something surgical
Marc:And obviously there's a different time zone, a different pace and a different approach to Eastern medicine.
Marc:And I'm open.
Marc:I went because I want to feel better.
Marc:I don't need to be in pain.
Marc:My pain tolerance is kind of high, but I need to be in pain.
Marc:So she did gua sha, which is, you know, you take a stone or a metal kind of scraping thing and you just move it.
Marc:You scrape along these certain areas of pain and it ruptures blood vessels.
Marc:So you got these weird bruises all over.
Marc:And she did a little bit of bleeding me out, you know, a couple drops of, you know, releasing some blood and did the gua sha and then, you know, did some needles.
Marc:And she said, wait a couple of days.
Marc:So I'm waiting a couple of days and I got scars, man.
Marc:I got the gouache Oscars to show that I've been practiced upon.
Marc:The Eastern style.
Marc:But, you know, I'm open to it.
Marc:But I know in my heart, like, you know, maybe I'll feel a little relief.
Marc:Stuck some needles in my toe joints, one of my forehead, some of my fingers, I think.
Marc:And I laid back for a while, meditated in the room.
Marc:But I'll see.
Marc:I'll see.
Marc:I mean, I know I should just take a break for a month, but I can't.
Marc:Because I don't know what to tell you, man.
Marc:I'm comfortable at a certain weight.
Marc:I'm comfortable with certain activities.
Marc:And now that I've been going at it for so long and through all this last couple of years, the lockdown and the grief, I've kind of grown used to whatever happens to me when I exercise, whatever happens to my brain.
Marc:But man, I was fucking exhausted yesterday after last week, like painfully exhausted to the point of anger and hostility.
Marc:And I did it to myself because I want to feel better.
Marc:It's crazy.
Marc:I cleaned the rain gutter.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I do things impulsively.
Marc:I know I've got things I've got to do, and some of them are big projects.
Marc:And I got up there, and holy shit, it just trickled rain.
Marc:But I don't think the gutter on this building, the garage I'm in, has been cleaned in over a decade.
Marc:Just like it's very rewarding to get all dirty, get my nails all fucked up and my hands all fucked up and very rewarding to do the to do the dirty work up on the ladder with the hands doing dirty work with your hands on a ladder.
Marc:That makes you feel like you've achieved something.
Marc:Huh?
Marc:Huh?
Marc:Get the hose out.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So Taraji Henson, Taraji P. Henson, she has this second season of her Facebook Watch series, Peace of Mind with Taraji, premiering today.
Marc:And you can see her in all her movies.
Marc:But go look at this.
Marc:It's at facebook.com slash watch.
Marc:to check it out.
Marc:And now I will talk to her.
Marc:And it was a fun talk.
Marc:I'm very excited you're here.
Guest:Thanks for having me.
Marc:So you've been up since three.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:You're worn out.
Guest:Not yet.
Guest:No, it's not yet.
Guest:It's just a different time that I started my day.
Marc:Isn't it crazy, your show business?
Guest:I slept earlier.
Guest:It's really crazy, but I'm so used to it.
Guest:I've been doing it so long.
Marc:You have, right?
Marc:But when you get up at that hour, then all of a sudden, you just start.
Guest:No, I don't start until the camera and lights are on.
Marc:Oh, so you're just kind of... I'm a limp noodle in the chair.
Marc:Until it all comes together.
Guest:They say showtime.
Marc:That's it?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:I'm a huge fan of... I mean, I'm obviously a huge fan of you, but I never shut up about Baby Boy.
Marc:I never shut up about it.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Never shut up about it.
Guest:Oh my God, that's the first feature that I did in my career.
Marc:Yeah, I think it's a masterpiece.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:You hear that, John?
Guest:I wish he was still alive.
Marc:Did you guys stay in touch the whole life?
Guest:Oh, I mean, he gave me incredible advice.
Guest:You know, I'm directing now, so I wish he... I just miss him.
Guest:I know he would be so proud.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think that Singleton was a great, great director, and I never hear... It's like a lot of attention gets to the Boys in the Hood movie,
Marc:Right.
Marc:But like I remember the first time I saw Baby Boy, I was like, does anyone know about this movie?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:This movie is great.
Guest:You know, the thing about it is he wasn't interested in making a commercial film with that movie.
Guest:No.
Guest:What he wanted was a cult classic.
Guest:He wanted something that people would watch over and over and over and over, no matter the year it came on.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, and he totally achieved that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, you know, people that watch it like that.
Guest:Oh, my goodness.
Guest:BET plays it at least twice a month.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Like, it's always on.
Marc:So you get those weird checks for $14?
Guest:Yeah, $5.
Guest:$5.
Guest:I got one for five cents one time.
Marc:Hit the cup of coffee checks.
Guest:Yeah, Uncle Sam still took three.
Marc:So you guys stayed in touch for all that time because he was so amazing.
Marc:Was he sick or did it just happen?
Guest:I knew nothing.
Guest:All I know is I got a call saying that he was in a coma and I lost it.
Guest:But, you know, I guess finally, you know, because men, you guys don't really talk about your health.
Marc:I do.
Marc:I never shut up about it.
Guest:Yeah, but most men don't.
Marc:I guess so.
Guest:Trying to be strong and there's nothing wrong with me.
Guest:Right.
Guest:They have to pass out before they go to the doctors.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I'm not saying that was his case, but I know that we started finding out later that I think he had a stroke earlier.
Guest:Oh, OK.
Guest:And so there was blood hemorrhaging on the brain and he was traveling and that didn't help.
Marc:Yeah, that's bad.
Marc:Some people get those blood clots from just traveling too much.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he traveled a lot.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Because John, if you knew John, he did the research that needed to be done.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So he's filming Snowfall, and he had made a couple trips to Columbia to make sure he had it tonally right.
Marc:So that's a big trip.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So when you did that movie, I mean, that was the first big movie?
Marc:That was-
Guest:Well, no, I was working, I was doing little special guest appearances on sitcoms.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Like sitcoms or TVs or little, you know, dramas that lasted for a season.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What was that?
Marc:Like, where did you grow up exactly?
Guest:I grew up in Washington, D.C.
Marc:Right in it?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:When it was Chocolate City.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Something's changed there.
Guest:It's changed a bit.
Guest:They put a lot of cream in the city.
Yeah.
Guest:A lot of cream in that chocolate.
Marc:I tell you, man, I went there.
Marc:I went there during the Trump administration.
Marc:It felt haunted.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was a strange time.
Marc:Great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Just sad.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Very sad.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:D.C.
Guest:is a lively city.
Guest:It's a lot of culture there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, there's a big huge Ethiopian culture.
Guest:There's a huge Latin culture, African.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, so the food is like Asian culture.
Guest:I think the best Chinese food is in D.C.
Marc:Yeah, probably.
Marc:I've been to China and it wasn't great.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You got to go D.C., baby.
Marc:But also like free museums.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:All that stuff.
Guest:Culture.
Guest:Lots of culture and history there.
Marc:And now what was your family like?
Marc:I mean, what did your folks do there?
Marc:They worked for the government?
Guest:Government.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Government most.
Guest:My dad was a contractor.
Guest:He did metal fabricating.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:So he became homeless when Reagan stepped in the office because they killed a lot of those independent contracts.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So he had to live in a van.
Marc:Is that true?
Marc:Were they not together?
Guest:No.
Marc:He put him out.
Marc:But your parents, they weren't together?
Guest:Oh, no, my parents.
Guest:Oh, I thought you were making a joke about Ronald Reagan and my dad.
Guest:No, they were not.
Guest:They were divorced.
Guest:They divorced when I was two.
Marc:Because I was going to say.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:No, he was a single man.
Marc:And in a truck.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, in the van.
Marc:How old were you when he was in the truck?
Marc:Well, because, you know, he loved pickup trucks.
Guest:That's actually how I learned to drive in the pickup trucks.
Guest:So I love having trucks.
Marc:How old were you when he was living in the van?
Guest:I was in elementary school.
Guest:I think I was like fifth, fourth, fifth or sixth grade.
Marc:So you remember?
Guest:Yeah, I remember.
Guest:But he never, I wasn't embarrassed because I had a dad.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It didn't matter like because he didn't make it an issue.
Guest:Right.
Guest:He would always be like, things are going to change for me.
Guest:I'm going to get that house with the garage in the back fabricated.
Guest:We fabricate metal and build things.
Guest:And he did it.
Guest:He got his Harley.
Guest:Everything he said he was going to do, he did.
Guest:And so I would just live through his strength.
Guest:He taught me to not apologize for who you are.
Guest:It doesn't matter where you started.
Guest:It's where you finish.
Marc:Oh,
Guest:And just gave me the confidence I needed and helped me develop a tough skin to tackle Tinseltown.
Marc:Well, that's nice.
Marc:I mean, it's nice that you had the support and that you had the inspiration.
Marc:And the story in and of itself from truck to garage, it's a good story.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:My sister now has turned his garage into her perfumery because she makes candles and oils and scents.
Marc:Well, what's the name of that company?
Guest:Hincense.
Marc:Hincense?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:You like that?
Guest:I see you have incense here.
Marc:I do.
Marc:I like people that start those kind of companies where all of a sudden it's just sort of like, I'm making soap.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I did it before I had a little company called Light My Fire.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Before my acting career took off.
Guest:And that's how I made my money.
Marc:Making candles?
Guest:Making candles and gift baskets of candles.
Marc:And you just add the smelly oil?
Yeah.
Guest:Oil.
Guest:It was a whole process.
Guest:I got burned out, pun intended.
Marc:But how does one learn to make candles?
Guest:I went to a community college school.
Guest:You know how they give those courses on the weekends?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I tried to take my son and get him involved in piano, but he banged his head on the keyboard and was like, I'm boring.
Guest:So I wasn't one of those parents that made the child do anything.
Guest:So I...
Guest:Because while he was in that class, I was supposedly in my milk.
Guest:It was salt, bath, salt, soap, and candle making class.
Guest:And I took well to the candle making.
Guest:And instead of it becoming a hobby, it became a source of income.
Guest:And it worked?
Guest:It did.
Guest:It worked.
Guest:We had a great Christmas that year.
Guest:My son had a great Christmas.
Guest:I was able to pay my rent.
Guest:But it's not a hobby anymore.
Guest:I burned myself out.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:You don't want to hate making candles.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And it was such a process that it would have been fun if it just stayed a hobby, you know?
Guest:Right.
Guest:I'd probably still be making candles now.
Marc:Well, your sister's doing it.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:And plus, I buy them now.
Guest:It's just like I have the money to buy the candles.
Yeah.
Marc:How's her business doing?
Guest:She does a launch November 1st.
Marc:Oh, that's a big deal.
Guest:I'm very proud of her.
Marc:And how about your relationship with your mom?
Marc:How is that?
Guest:Oh, my mom and I are close.
Guest:She's in Florida.
Marc:They're both around still?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Oh, that's amazing.
Guest:My dad isn't.
Guest:My dad passed in 06.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Guest:Yeah, but my mom is very much alive and very healthy.
Marc:In Florida.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yes, and she is a huge, I mean, such a huge supporter of me and my career.
Guest:I just remember when, speaking of baby boy, I couldn't afford a nanny.
Guest:Well, I never had a nanny, but I couldn't afford people to watch my son, and I didn't trust everybody because he was so young, and my mother literally...
Guest:I would fly out and keep my son while I did all of the press tours all over.
Guest:And, you know, when I booked personal adventures, I had to leave my... Well, you know, I had to live in New York while my son was still in school.
Guest:And she left her whole life to come and be with him.
Guest:So I owe so much to my mom.
Marc:So your son gets along good, too, with her.
Guest:My family's close.
Guest:We're a close-knit family.
Marc:Oh, that's nice.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So when did you start acting, though?
Guest:My mom let my mom and dad and my family tell it as soon as I came out of the canal.
Guest:I've always been a rambunctious child.
Guest:I was the only child, so I was very creative.
Guest:I had a very creative imagination.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And my dad was just new to hone it.
Guest:He's planted seeds in me.
Guest:He told me I was going to be one of the greatest actors of all time.
Guest:Actually, he told me I'd be the greatest actor.
Marc:Well, you're one of them.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:I think so.
Marc:I would say so.
Guest:And so, you know, he just spoke that into me.
Guest:He was like, you're going to go out to L.A.
Guest:He was so exact.
Guest:You're going to meet three people.
Guest:And I met three people.
Guest:I met manager, agent and a casting director.
Guest:Next thing you know, I had to quit my day job and I was acting.
Marc:So where did you go to college?
Guest:I went to Howard University.
Marc:How was that experience?
Marc:It was amazing.
Guest:Amazing.
Guest:Amazing.
Marc:I think I've talked to only a couple people that have gone to Howard University.
Marc:And you studied acting there?
Guest:Yes, I did.
Guest:That's what my degree is in.
Marc:And that was the undergraduate degree?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:So you did four years acting.
Guest:Yes, I did like four and a half because I came in half of the year because I started as an electrical engineer my freshman year.
Guest:But that was a fluke.
Guest:I didn't belong there.
Marc:The electrical engineering?
Guest:Yeah, I failed pre-calc.
Marc:What was the idea there?
Guest:Well, because I didn't get accepted into the high school of fine arts.
Guest:So I thought that meant I couldn't act.
Guest:So my dreams of becoming a movie star were dead.
Guest:And then I was like, I was hanging out this really smart girl, Candace Dickens.
Guest:We were really close in high school and she was very smart young lady.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And mathematically wired, scientifically wired.
Guest:And so, you know, because we were hanging and she was like, well, I'm going to North Carolina A&T for electrical engineering.
Guest:And I was like, well, yeah, I'll do that, too.
Marc:Were you good at math?
Guest:Failed pre-calc.
Marc:Oh, good.
Guest:The class that preps you for all the math that you will endure, you know, studying electrical engineering.
Guest:I failed pre-calc, and I didn't try to either.
Guest:I had a tutor.
Guest:I was really trying hard, and I got an F, and I never got an F in anything.
Guest:Clearly, I didn't belong.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, but you went anyways.
Guest:I went.
Guest:But I was I found myself longing for the arts because I my English class was in the fine arts building.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And at the time, only Howard University in North Carolina A&T offered had a program where you could get an actual BFA.
Guest:right in acting in acting right and so I was there but that's not what I was there for so I remember even one time because I had to pass the theater every time I went to my English class boy was my face pressed up against my soul felt like it belonged there you know and I'll never forget I walked past and they had an audition up on the board the bulletin board and I was like
Guest:You should do it.
Guest:And I told nobody that I was doing it.
Guest:And I remember I still on that stage and I could not.
Guest:The rejection was still ringing loudest.
Marc:I'm not getting into the school.
Guest:And my hands were shaking.
Guest:And the thing that I could do naturally.
Guest:And I was told so much that I was so raw and good at it.
Guest:Just raw.
Guest:My raw self without training.
Guest:I couldn't do it out of fear.
Guest:And so I did the monologue, though.
Guest:I got through it.
Guest:And I just remember, I don't remember seeing anybody out there, the person who was auditioning, the casting person or whatever.
Guest:I just, it was like I was numb.
Guest:And I walked out of there and I never went back to check that bulletin board to see if I got a call back.
Marc:Never?
Marc:Never.
Marc:Because you didn't feel good about what happened?
Guest:I just was afraid.
Guest:Fear is stifling, you know, if you allow it to take over.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I know.
Marc:And like, you know, what you do in relation to it, because I think there was a lot of points in my career where I was afraid, but I just kind of threw myself into it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Which is fine sometimes, but sometimes you're guarded, you know, and you're angry because you're fighting the fear back.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Marc:Right?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And it takes a long time to settle into yourself.
Marc:You don't know when the hell it's going to happen.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:So what changed for you in terms of getting into the acting program?
Guest:Well, I had to fall on my face.
Guest:Like my father said, I remember calling him from North Carolina A&T and I was crying.
Guest:I was like, Dad, I felt I was so disappointed in myself because I'd never failed anything.
Guest:And I literally really tried.
Guest:The electrical engineering.
Guest:I tried.
Guest:I did.
Guest:And...
Guest:I called it because, you know, my parents didn't have money really to send me to college.
Guest:So I felt like such a failure.
Guest:And I called and I was crying.
Guest:I thought I was going to be in trouble.
Guest:And he was like, well, that's what you needed to do.
Guest:You needed to fall flat on your face.
Guest:Now get your ass back up here and roll at Howard and go to school for acting like you supposed to be doing.
Guest:And because and he was so brilliant.
Guest:He wasn't one of those parents that told you what to do.
Guest:Yeah, he would.
Guest:give you two options you if you choose this this could happen if you choose this now you make the choice and you sit back and wait yeah you know right and and so it worked yeah because i was very clear on going back into acting i was very clear and nothing could get in my way well you picked like the opposite of acting so like you know what i mean like so you would know
Guest:I had to experience that.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:I had to experience that.
Marc:It's kind of funny, I would imagine, in retrospect, psychologically, why you would pick something so devoid of passion that you had.
Marc:It was almost like you needed to get hit in the head.
Guest:I did.
Guest:And my dad knew that.
Guest:Because when I said electrical engineer, he kind of looked like, okay, whatever.
Okay.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:That must have been pretty awful six months.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, you know, there was a lot going on.
Guest:I was a freshman in college away from home.
Guest:So there was the excitement of that being on my own.
Guest:But that F did not feel good.
Guest:That didn't feel good at all.
Marc:I mean, like, you know, either you got it for numbers or you don't.
Guest:Yeah, because I tried.
Guest:And then cut to this.
Guest:See, this is how funny God is.
Guest:God clearly has a sense of humor.
Guest:Then years later, I book hidden figures and I have to play a mathematician.
Guest:I was laughing inside.
Marc:Did any of that seem familiar to you?
Guest:No.
Marc:No.
Guest:No, it still looked like a foreign language.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you pulled it off.
Guest:I was called acting.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Well, what'd you do to like get your brain, your brain into the head of that?
Guest:Well, you know, I. OK, the funny thing is the scene where I explain the goal, no goal equation.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I had to rehearse that.
Guest:It was like choreography for me.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because I had to get it in my skin so that I looked like on the day in the camera that I know exactly what I'm talking about.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So even though I didn't understand it fully.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had to look like I knew what I was talking about.
Marc:Of course.
Guest:You know, they're mathematicians and math geeks.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Weight looking like.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Marc:You know, if anyone's going to be picky about how you.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That's going to be them.
Marc:You don't want to you don't want to be shit on on the comment board of the math geek.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:But it's just important, and we wanted to get it right historically.
Guest:So I remember they hired a mathematician to come and train me, but he started to really teach me.
Guest:I said, hey, my friend, it's not going to work.
Guest:Just tell me when I say this, where is that in the equation?
Guest:What do I point to?
Guest:I said, I'm not going to learn it, baby.
Guest:We tried this.
Guest:We tried this years ago, and it was an epic failure.
Marc:I got an F. I got an F in this.
Marc:I got an F when I tried.
Guest:And he was so passionate, and I was like, oh.
Marc:He was like a math coach?
Guest:Oh, my God, yes.
Guest:And he was so passionate.
Guest:He really wanted me to get it.
Guest:I was like, baby, I'm sorry.
Guest:I'm so sorry.
Guest:It's not going to happen.
Guest:It's not going to happen, dear.
Guest:But I will make you proud in this movie.
Guest:So I had them put a big dry erase board, a chalkboard.
Guest:No, was it a dry erase?
Guest:One of those boards.
Guest:I had them put it in my condo and every night I would rehearse that scene.
Marc:Oh, so you would write those equations out.
Marc:I would write the equations.
Marc:Even without knowing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Knowing whatever.
Marc:Oh, so you just had to remember.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:Had to remember.
Marc:Well, that's challenging.
Guest:As I'm saying it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So that on the day, I could make it real.
Guest:I could turn around and I could point to the places because I knew.
Guest:I didn't know exactly what I was talking about, but I knew what I was talking about when I pointed.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You knew.
Guest:Right now, when I say this, I'm talking about this part of the equation.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:I have no idea what the equation is.
Guest:I just see a bunch of alphabets and numbers.
Marc:Well, that was a great performance by everybody.
Marc:It was a really exciting movie.
Guest:It was so incredible.
Marc:Apparently, from what I understand, they show it to kids now as an inspirational film.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:There's been an uptick in female coding.
Guest:I like that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's nice to be an inspiration.
Guest:Listen.
Marc:Right?
Guest:What we're all here to do as humans.
Marc:I guess so.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And that director, you were supposed to work with him at another time, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Theodore Melfi.
Guest:Ted.
Guest:Ted.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was supposed to work with him.
Guest:uh, St.
Guest:Vincent.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Was that Bill Murray?
Guest:Bill Murray and Melissa McCarthy.
Guest:And I was so, cause he, we met in New York.
Marc:You and Ted.
Guest:Me and Ted.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:This is when I was on person adventures and I remember him bringing his storyboard and the character that he wanted me to play that, you know, they draw the different scenes and sequences.
Guest:And I kept looking at it and I was like, that looks like me.
Guest:And he said, this is you.
Guest:I wrote this role for you.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:And it just didn't work out.
Guest:Politics came into play.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, it's this thing called overseas money that you have to get to finance a lot of these movies.
Guest:And if the studio feels like you're not a box office draw or they don't think they can take your name overseas to the financiers to get any money, then you don't get the job.
Marc:So that's the way you framed it.
Marc:I know that happens, but you don't think it was personal or race driven?
Marc:No.
Guest:I think so because the character was written black.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then they changed it to a Russian, which changed the entire dynamic of the story he was trying to tell.
Guest:That's funny.
Guest:He was trying to tell the story of a modern, these three odd people and how they come together and how, you know, this son, this black kid, you know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:With this guy, you know, it was totally different now with, I mean, not black kid because my character was pregnant.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But how this odd family came together.
Guest:She's a stripper, too.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:And they're taking care of Melissa McCarthy's son.
Guest:And it's like, huh?
Guest:But he wanted a modern family look.
Guest:Like something so off the wall.
Marc:So how do you bounce back?
Marc:At the moment, were you like, fuck this?
Guest:I had been getting that a lot.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So I was used to it.
Marc:Getting what exactly?
Marc:Pushed out for white actresses?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And just saying that, you know, black doesn't sell overseas or she's not a box office draw.
Guest:I had been getting that a lot.
Marc:I don't like that on just on top of just doing the job.
Marc:That's like double the rejection.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you had to somehow find peace within that to continue?
Guest:I don't take no's.
Guest:You remember I got told no very early on.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:So I just go with the flow.
Guest:I know that at the time it's a no.
Guest:That doesn't mean it's a no forever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because look what happened.
Guest:The gym was getting hidden figures.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:I guess that, right.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:And also hustle and flow, all of them.
Guest:But what I'm saying is that by this point, Ted was like, you're not going to tell me no on this with her.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:You see what I mean?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:It was almost like that had to happen.
Guest:So I just think everything happens for a reason.
Guest:I don't fight it.
Marc:You kind of have to think that after a certain point.
Marc:You must.
Marc:Yeah, even if you don't believe.
Guest:Because it is what it is.
Marc:I mean, what you going to do, fight it?
Guest:You going to hit the reverse button and go back and fix it?
Guest:You can't.
Marc:No, you can't.
Marc:So you have to.
Guest:It is what it is.
Marc:Yeah, either you're bitter or you move forward.
Guest:That's all you can do.
Marc:Because I have a hard time with the spirituality premise and with a sense of higher power or whatnot.
Marc:But I do know that there are tricks you've got to play on your brain so you don't go into the darkness.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:And I do believe that the universe is listening.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Like if you keep saying it's bad, it's bad, it's bad.
Guest:Well, guess what?
Guest:It's going to be bad.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You have to change the narrative.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You have to check.
Guest:My father used to say this.
Guest:It was so powerful and I'll never, ever forget it.
Guest:He is in my DNA now.
Guest:Get from around those who have your same problems and get around those who have your solutions.
Right.
Guest:Sitting in the back of the class with Johnny getting the F. Well, maybe if you sit up front with Nancy, you'll get A's.
Marc:Even though it makes you nervous.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Or you don't think you should be there.
Guest:You have to do the things that make you nervous because that's where change comes from.
Marc:I know.
Guest:You have to do the, like if a role doesn't scare the shit out of me, I don't want it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know why?
Marc:Why?
Guest:I'm not being transformed.
Guest:So how is the audience going to transform?
Marc:Well, I mean, that's right.
Marc:But I mean, theoretically, with most roles, there should be some transformation, right?
Guest:Right.
Guest:But if it doesn't scare you, if it doesn't feel like you're being challenged, how are you challenging the audience?
Marc:I get it.
Marc:I get it.
Guest:If I read something, I feel like I did that before.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No.
Guest:You know, it has to, especially now I've been doing this and I've done a lot of characters.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think that's, you know, I'm sorry.
Guest:I'm kind of going off.
Guest:I think that is what it was for what it is or was or whatever for Hollywood for me.
Guest:They didn't quite know what to do with a woman this attractive playing characters.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I don't think they were used to a black woman.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, that's easy to stereotype.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Because every time I would do something, they were like, that's it.
Guest:That's what she's good at.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then I'd flip the script.
Guest:They look at me like I was like some weird enigma.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:A freak of nature.
Marc:She has range.
Marc:What is this?
Marc:We thought she was just the one person.
Guest:It's called trained.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then don't judge me.
Guest:I remember when I first got to Hollywood, they kept saying, I was edgy, this, she's urban is the word.
Guest:They're like, well, I'm very urban.
Guest:I grew up in the hood.
Guest:But you can't judge me based on who I am.
Guest:That's never going to change.
Marc:Well, they want to put you in a box.
Guest:You can't.
Guest:My name doesn't fit in a box.
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:There's three.
Marc:There's three.
Guest:You know what I'm saying?
Guest:Like, come on, my name is different.
Marc:And the struggle to, it's not even a matter of proving yourself.
Marc:I mean, you want the opportunity to at least engage you.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:And I imagine that different points in your career, you're like, I can't do this shit anymore.
Guest:I feel like that right now.
Guest:You know, when you turn 50, all your fucks are behind you.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know?
Guest:I know.
Guest:But, yeah, it's like... But then, you know, I started switching the narrative in my brain because I was like, I'm not going anywhere.
Guest:My talent is to be reckoned with.
Guest:I went to school for this.
Guest:I can do... This is what I do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right?
Guest:So...
Guest:You can't keep telling me no.
Guest:You can't keep telling a talent like this no.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I'll never forget John Singleton put in the breakdown of Baby Boy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:New faces only.
Guest:And I said, see, I didn't even know that I even had a shot at it or whatever.
Guest:But I was like, this could be my break.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's what it was.
Guest:And so he's instilled that into me.
Guest:Right.
Guest:As I'm producing and directing now, I'm looking to discover new talent.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Jody.
Guest:I hate you, Jody.
Guest:I felt embarrassed in that film because I was like, this man has been following me.
Guest:This is my life.
Guest:It was just that young hood love, you know, it was so great.
Guest:So, but what I love is that people of every race understood the term baby boy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Color.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, everybody has a baby boy in their family.
Guest:They got that uncle that won't leave the house.
Guest:He's still in the basement.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And he's on that bike.
Guest:Yes!
Guest:That big bike.
That's it.
Marc:It was something else, man.
Guest:It was.
Guest:It was.
Marc:It was like one of the best things, Ving Rhames ever.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:He was amazing in that.
Marc:You know, I get choked up thinking about it.
Guest:Yeah, it was deep.
Marc:And how did, well, how did, like, right after that, Hustle and Flow came pretty much?
Marc:No.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Right after that, I did a show on Lifetime called The Division with Bonnie Bedelia, Nassie McKenzie.
Marc:So you didn't have any problem with TV?
Marc:John Hamm.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, right.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You didn't care about TV, movies, didn't matter.
Guest:It didn't matter.
Guest:I knew I liked movies better, but I wasn't in the position at the time to say I needed that money.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Single mom, and I ain't never seen that kind of money in my life.
Guest:I was like, what?
Guest:I remember when my manager and agent, you know, they play the game of the negotiating.
Guest:And they called me and said, okay, you got to say no.
Guest:We're going to say no to the $22,000 a week, an episode.
Guest:I said, what?
Guest:Almost passed out.
Guest:I was like, we have to say no?
Guest:What do you mean?
Guest:They was like, don't worry.
Guest:This is how you play the game.
Guest:I was so new.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:It still makes me nervous, though.
Marc:Are you sure you want to play this game?
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:I was like, are you sure?
Guest:I've never seen this kind of money in my life.
Guest:And so they were like, just trust us.
Guest:And they actually only got it up to 25.
Marc:But still.
Guest:Still, you have to muscle your way in.
Marc:Well, that's how they have fun.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Marc:And if they fuck up, they're like, yeah, we don't know what happened.
Marc:But...
Guest:Thank God they didn't because I'll never forget going to the callback to that show.
Guest:My car wouldn't start.
Guest:I was like, are you kidding me?
Guest:I'm almost out the hood and this is what you do.
Guest:I didn't have time to panic.
Guest:I was in L.A.
Guest:I didn't know how you catch a cab, but I just called the cab.
Guest:So I got there and I meet Jon Hamm in the waiting room.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we're both going into the field.
Marc:He hasn't done much either.
Marc:At that point, right?
Guest:No, not at all.
Marc:Like we were noobies.
Marc:Just a guy.
Guest:Yep, just a guy.
Guest:And God bless him.
Guest:He was the only guy in there.
Guest:He did it though.
Guest:But he was raised by women, so he's good.
Guest:He's a good guy.
Guest:Yeah, he was good.
Guest:He fit right in.
Guest:But yeah, and I just, I'll never forget because all I had under my belt was Baby Boy.
Guest:I'll never, and you know, the couple little guest stars I did.
Guest:But I remember standing in the room full of white people in suits.
Guest:I was like.
Marc:That's the world, right?
Guest:I was like, oh my God, they don't know me.
Guest:And I'm standing there.
Guest:But at the same time, here I am.
Guest:And so they liked something.
Guest:And I'll never forget Aaron Lipstadt, one of the producers.
Guest:I loved him.
Guest:He's such an incredible, fashionable guy.
Guest:He stood up and said, I loved your work in Baby Boy.
Guest:And I was like...
Guest:What?
Guest:You saw that?
Guest:He was like brilliant.
Guest:And I think he had all those white people watching Baby Boy that night.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:So they all knew.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:And then that's what was next for me.
Guest:And then while I was filming...
Guest:The division, I noticed that I couldn't do movies and I was stuck.
Guest:And as an artist, that's the worst thing you can do is make an artist feel stuck.
Marc:I talked to some people get stuck on that TV show.
Guest:God has been good to me though because every time I wanted out, I got out.
Marc:And you didn't have to get it.
Marc:It happened naturally.
Guest:It happened naturally because John had already sent me Hustle and Flow.
Guest:And he was like, I need you.
Guest:You got to get off that show.
Guest:I don't know how to tell you, but you need to get off that show.
Guest:And I was like, John, they'll sue me.
Guest:I can't do that.
Guest:But see, again, this is the universe working to my good because they couldn't sell the film.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So while they were trying to sell it, Hustle and Flow, while they were trying to get the money for it.
Marc:Because there wasn't enough white people in it?
Guest:Well, no one wanted to touch a black pimp in a white hole.
Marc:What?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:We haven't seen that.
Guest:We don't want to see that.
Guest:You know, who's going to die?
Guest:You know?
Guest:And so John, he's just a rebel.
Guest:And he was like, well, we're going to make this.
Guest:He put his house up for a second mortgage to raise the money for this film.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And because they couldn't get their film, it kept pushing it off the date.
Guest:And so in that time, our show didn't get picked up and I was free and I was able to do Hustle & Flow.
Marc:And that was a big one.
Guest:That was a big one.
Guest:Didn't get paid any money, but...
Marc:Got the Oscar nomination, right?
Guest:Got the Oscar nomination for the music.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But what I love about John and Craig Brewer, the director, Craig called me because they just knew I would get that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They knew.
Guest:They were like, you're going to get a nomination.
Guest:They kept saying.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it didn't happen.
Guest:Whatever.
Guest:I wasn't expecting anything, you know.
Guest:And...
Guest:I just remember Craig calling me.
Guest:I'll never forget my dad was on his deathbed at the same time.
Guest:And you remember he was telling me, you're going to get an Oscar.
Guest:He always thought I was going to get an Oscar for portraying Diana Ross.
Guest:Because he used to always say, you're going to play Diana Ross.
Guest:You're going to play Diana Ross.
Marc:That was his personal obsession?
Guest:Yep.
Marc:Was it Diana Ross?
Guest:And people say I kind of look like her.
Marc:Yeah, I can see it.
Marc:I can see it.
Guest:Yeah, so that was his thing.
Guest:And so...
Guest:I'll never forget calling him, and I'm like, Dad, well, I didn't get the nomination, but the song got nominated, and he was like, yeah, you know, it's hard for us sometimes to be recognized for things that we do great.
Guest:He said that.
Guest:No, he was on his way out.
Guest:He knew he was going to see anything else that I did, but what he wanted to see.
Guest:He didn't even live to see me perform on this.
Guest:He passed while we were about to go into rehearsals for the Oscars.
Guest:Remember I sang?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And he didn't get to see it.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:Yeah, he died two weeks before.
Guest:Oh, sorry.
Guest:Yeah, so that hurt.
Guest:What was that?
Guest:What was it?
Guest:He had cancer.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's terrible.
Guest:Horrible.
Guest:It's a horrible way to watch somebody deteriorate.
Guest:You're a hero.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You used to call himself Mandigo Warrior.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I remember he came back from Vietnam.
Guest:He fought in Nam.
Guest:All the veterans, for real.
Guest:But my dad, you know he had his complications.
Guest:He had the aging orange.
Marc:Oh, is that what he got?
Marc:He had it.
Marc:You know my friend Kit, who's here in the house, that's where her dad died of.
Guest:But he didn't die of that.
Guest:My dad cured himself.
Guest:I don't know how the hell he did it.
Guest:I just, because it was in his feet.
Guest:He had it in his feet and the flesh would melt off his, literally down to the white meat.
Guest:It would just start coming off.
Guest:And I don't know, he did some concoction where he had bleach and something.
Guest:He would soak his feet in that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Gone.
Guest:Really?
Guest:That's why we were all screwed up because he beat everything.
Guest:Every ailment he had, he would beat it.
Guest:He would be like, I'm strong.
Guest:I'm my Niko, man.
Guest:So when that cancer got him, it killed us because we was just so used to him being so strong and beating everything.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, it was hard.
Marc:Something's going to get us, I guess.
Guest:At some point.
Guest:That's why you got to live your life and be grateful every day.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Are you good with the gratitude?
Guest:No.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And I'm human.
Guest:You know, we all get selfish and stuck in our way sometimes.
Guest:But just remind yourself every day that you could have been chosen to not wake up today.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It happens.
Guest:You hear about it all the time.
Guest:Every day.
Guest:Had an aneurysm in it.
Guest:No one knows where those things come from, but it happens.
Marc:I know.
Guest:Your car can be plucked at any moment.
Marc:I know.
Marc:It happened.
Marc:I lost someone close to me, you know, out of nowhere.
Marc:Had like something she didn't know she had.
Marc:Died in a week.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, but I still have the same sometimes where you have to choose to think differently.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Those old patterns are strong.
Guest:They are, but they're breakable.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:At least you get self-awareness enough to where when you sink into it, you got a better chance of getting out of it.
Guest:Well, I hope.
Guest:That's the hope, right?
Yeah.
Marc:The Daily Hope.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:There you go.
Guest:There's the show.
Guest:The Daily Hope.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I would be the one to host that.
Marc:People would be very surprised.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:So what have you been producing, though, in terms of films?
Guest:Yeah, I had started a production company there, a couple of films that we're trying to get financing for.
Guest:One that I'm directing is a coming-of-age story.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Two-Face.
Guest:Braun bought it.
Guest:Braun Studios bought it.
Guest:We're working on the script right now.
Guest:And it's a it's a script where I want to discover a new young African-American actress.
Guest:I never had a coming of age story that I could identify with growing up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We didn't have the images.
Guest:You know, I only time I really identified with I identified with the Brat Pack, you know, Molly Ringwall, especially in Pretty in Pink because she was poor and she came from a single family home.
Marc:But still, it's the model.
Marc:The model was always white.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:So there was never our story being told and what it is to be a young black girl coming of age in high school going off to college.
Guest:So I jumped at the chance.
Guest:We're now rewriting the script.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:At first it was PG.
Guest:Now they want it rated R. Oh, that's all right, though.
Guest:It's okay because these kids are rated R. Yeah, sure.
Marc:I mean, literally, you can't hide anything from them.
Marc:All kids are rated R, I think.
Guest:Pretty much.
Marc:At this point.
Guest:At this point.
Guest:Thanks, social media.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:TikTok.
Guest:Yeah, great job.
Guest:Yeah, look what you did.
Marc:You broke the children.
Marc:We're all addicts.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Everybody was going crazy.
Guest:Instagram is down.
Guest:Oh, no.
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:It was nuts.
Marc:I enjoyed it.
Marc:I did, too.
Marc:I tweeted.
Marc:I said, I hope Twitter's next.
Guest:They probably took that down.
Marc:They didn't.
Marc:But it was interesting.
Marc:Some people were like, why would you say that?
Marc:It's like, what the fuck is wrong with you?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Put the phone down.
Marc:Yeah, take a rest.
Guest:Get your head up and look at the clouds, the sky today.
Marc:It's a lot slower out here.
Marc:It's a lot slower outside of your phone in a different time zone.
Marc:Our brains are going all the time.
Marc:A lot of people dancing, it seems, on TikTok.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Well, I think coming out of a pandemic and a worldwide lockdown, you got to dance.
Marc:It's so much dancing.
Marc:I mean, I don't know what's going on, but I found myself on Instagram.
Marc:I followed one of the dancing ladies.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I follow.
Marc:She's just jumping around.
Guest:Because it's happy.
Guest:You know, dancing and laughter is euphoric.
Marc:And it's all about that dopamine jolt.
Guest:I was going there next.
Guest:you were yeah yeah the people dancing but you're watching them dance you get a little get a little juice right i get joy what i know this is strange i get joy looking at tiny things so i follow this page called tiny kitchen yeah and they cook meals but all in a miniature like everything's miniature i like tiny things too i love it and they'll make like a miniature strawberry shortcake how miniature like very like the size of a quarter
Guest:Yeah, like it's little.
Guest:It's tiny.
Marc:But it's legit.
Marc:It's a real short stretch.
Guest:Yeah, they have a little oven with a tea candle.
Guest:That's how they cook everything in this little oven, in this little stove that has a tea candle.
Guest:And they fry bacon.
Marc:Little teeny bacons?
Guest:Little bacons.
Guest:I'm like, where did they get that little egg?
Guest:What if they find that teeny tiny onion?
Guest:Like you go down a rabbit hole.
Guest:Then there's another page that makes all of the tiny little appliances that they use.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:Like it's the rabbit hole.
Guest:Then there's a page where there's tiny little dolls where he'll shave all the hair off the doll and give it a new wig.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:It's a whole universe.
Guest:Go down a rabbit hole of tiny.
Marc:I just like tiny.
Marc:I like looking at the travel section at the Walgreens.
Marc:It's like, oh, they make that little...
Guest:Whatever makes you happy.
Guest:You got to do it.
Guest:You must.
Marc:That's very specific.
Marc:The tiny thing.
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:Is there a lot of people that like it?
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:I'm not the only one.
Guest:I was following like, because I was like, they're going to think I'm weird.
Guest:They're going to think I'm weird.
Guest:So I would never like that.
Guest:Did I start seeing all the celebrities that follow?
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:They need to know that I follow too.
Marc:I want them to go on forever.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:More tiny world.
Guest:Yes, it's amazing.
Marc:I wonder what it is that's so appealing about the little things.
Marc:I don't know what it is.
Guest:Well, I guess for me, it taps into my childhood because I played with that stuff when I was a kid.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:You know, Betty Crocker oven.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:Easy bake oven.
Guest:All of that.
Guest:Easy bake.
Guest:Yeah, it's the easy bake.
Guest:But Betty Crocker came out with one too.
Marc:I don't remember.
Guest:Maybe not.
Guest:Maybe it was easy bake and maybe sometimes they would partner with Betty Crocker and she would give them the dough.
Marc:Do you cook now?
Guest:Yeah, I love to cook.
Guest:My son is grown now, so I don't cook as much.
Guest:I've gotten a little bougie.
Guest:He's 27.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah, I've gotten a little bougie.
Guest:I'll be like, I have people for that now.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:You get the people cooking?
Guest:Well, I have a chef.
Marc:Why not?
Guest:Yeah, because, you know, when you get busy, I don't want to have to think about what I'm eating when I get home.
Guest:And I don't want to eat bad.
Guest:So if I have a meal prep, then it kind of keeps me in line.
Marc:That's so funny because I make it part of my business.
Marc:I cooked all day yesterday.
Guest:You did?
Marc:I did.
Guest:Now Sundays, I'll throw that.
Marc:Right.
Guest:It's something about fall, football, and cooking.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I'll just do it.
Marc:I'm not as busy as you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I find this sort of zen thing with the cooking.
Guest:Oh, absolutely.
Guest:It's very therapeutic.
Marc:And I was on the road for a while, and I got a little road pudge.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:That's the first thing I do when I've worked on location is I come back home and I cook.
Guest:But nowadays when I go on location, I make sure I have a kitchen because I don't like eating out all the time.
Marc:I can't stand it.
Guest:I don't like it.
Marc:Because you don't know what you're getting at.
Guest:And it's a lot of sodium.
Marc:Sodium, oil.
Guest:A lot of sodium.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Yeah, and you don't know.
Marc:You don't see it.
Marc:Yeah, it's like, this seems healthy.
Marc:No.
Guest:Nope.
Guest:Even salads.
Guest:My mom is like, I don't know why I keep getting it all this way.
Guest:The hell I'm eating is salads.
Guest:I'm like, what dressing are you eating?
Guest:Caesar salad ain't it, mom.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Croutons.
Guest:Stay away from the croutons and the cheese.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Marc:It's hard, right?
Guest:Yeah, it's hard.
Marc:But personal chef, now what do they, do they live with you?
Marc:No, no, no.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I like my space.
Marc:Yeah, I just, I don't know how that works in that world.
Guest:No, she just meal preps at home and drops the meals off.
Guest:She has several clients.
Marc:She has several clients.
Marc:Oh, I see.
Marc:So they just drop it off, you throw it in the oven.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, okay, that's different.
Marc:Because when I hear personal chef, I think like, is that like a,
Marc:A butler?
Guest:No, I'm not the Smiths.
Guest:I remember the first time I went to the Smiths' house to rehearse.
Guest:Jada and Will?
Guest:Yeah, Jada and Will Smith and Jada.
Guest:And this is when we were filming, preparing to go film Karate Kid.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And we had rehearsals at their house.
Guest:And I remember walking in and, you know, Will and Jada was so sweet.
Guest:And they were like, is there anything you would like to eat?
Guest:And I'm just playing.
Guest:I'm like, oh, yeah, I'd like to have some lobster.
Guest:He was like, how would you like it cooked?
Guest:And I was like...
Guest:Oh, shit, he's serious.
Guest:Yeah, I'm not like that.
Guest:I don't have a chef on deck.
Marc:Did you have a lobster?
Guest:Oh, God, yes, I had poached lobster.
Guest:I mean, the snacks kept coming in, the chef in the chef's hat.
Guest:I went to the bathroom, and I remember wiping my hand on some linen.
Guest:I go back in the bath, and the bathroom was spotless.
Guest:And I threw the linen in the basket that was there.
Guest:And I went back like an hour later, and it was clean, and it had already been replaced back.
Guest:And I was like, do they have little people behind the walls that jump out?
Marc:Miniature people.
Guest:And I could hear Willow practicing her voice lessons.
Guest:I was like, wow, this house is happening.
Guest:They might find me here in one of the bathroom tomorrow morning.
Guest:Like, you didn't go home?
Guest:No, I kind of moved in.
Marc:Where's my lobster?
Marc:That's funny.
Marc:How was it working with... You produced and were in the What Men Want.
Marc:How was it working with Tracy?
Guest:Amazing.
Guest:He's funny.
Guest:He tells the stories, boy.
Guest:I would be like, Tracy, okay, I really want to hear how this ended, but can we please finish this scene?
Guest:Okay, Tiroji!
Guest:I got to, sis!
Guest:Taraji wants me to stop.
Guest:I'm like, yeah, we want to go home.
Marc:You never know what you're going to get with him.
Marc:You really don't.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:He would say some of the most zaniest things.
Guest:And I figured him out.
Guest:I said, you like shock.
Guest:You like to shock.
Guest:And so because I said, you don't know my dad.
Guest:My shock, you have to do something really crazy.
Guest:You have to do something you've never done before to really shock me, Tracy.
Guest:Because I think he spent a lot of that shoot trying to shock me.
Guest:And I would just look at him at me.
Guest:Sorry, Tracy.
Guest:I've seen a lot in my lifetime.
Guest:I've heard a lot.
Guest:A little jaded.
Guest:And I'm a bit of a comedian because comedians, what you do is you find that humor in everything.
Marc:Of course.
Guest:And that's literally how I lived my life.
Marc:Yeah, you have to.
Marc:It's a mixture of the things that you do to cope.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:So Empire, is that done now?
Guest:Yes, it's done.
Marc:How many did you shoot?
Guest:Six seasons.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So like you did, like that was a huge success.
Marc:And it was just like, it was almost like the last great TV show.
Guest:Yeah, and now everybody's trying to recreate it.
Guest:And it's like, you got to remember the last time an all-black...
Guest:cast in a television show had that much success, and when I say that much success, I mean overseas, was Bill Cosby.
Guest:And then for years, they were trying to recreate that formula.
Guest:And I've even had producers say to me now, that I'm on the other side of producer, like when the Empire hit, all the studios were like, we need that Empire effect.
Guest:We need that Empire effect.
Guest:This character needs to be like Cookie, you know?
Guest:And
Guest:And so it's like, good luck, guys.
Guest:You're not going to find that kind of sweet spot again for another decade, probably.
Guest:You know, it takes a minute.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And so many things have got to click.
Marc:And you can't.
Guest:We've done that already.
Guest:You've got to find the next new thing.
Guest:Well, you can't plan it, man.
Guest:You can't.
Guest:And you've got to find it.
Guest:And it's all in taking risks.
Guest:And as long as you keep trying to recreate empire, you're not taking a risk.
Guest:You're playing it safe.
Marc:But also, you don't know that an ensemble is going to click like that.
Guest:Empire took a risk.
Guest:Those producers took a risk.
Guest:Fox took a risk.
Guest:And that's what art is, taking a risk.
Marc:Absolutely.
Guest:Putting yourself out there.
Guest:Maybe it'll hit, maybe it won't.
Guest:But that's art.
Guest:You have to be willing to take a risk.
Guest:And these studios play it too safe.
Guest:And then when some studio steps outside and takes that risk, all the other studios go, let's do that.
Guest:And it's like you need to do the opposite of what they're doing because you can't recreate that.
Marc:They've already done it.
Marc:Right, they just want to hack it.
Guest:They've already done it.
Marc:Yeah, and you were part of it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And now you're a cookie to everybody.
Guest:I'm still Yvette.
Guest:I still get that.
Guest:You can always be Yvette to me.
Marc:I guess that's the liability of being on a successful show for a long time.
Guest:You know, it's a nod to my talent to the point where people were so affected and inspired by her that they still see that in me.
Marc:It's all right, right?
Marc:It's okay.
Guest:It's okay because I have it several times.
Guest:Shug.
Guest:I don't think people really called me Shug.
Guest:They would just be like, ask me to sing the song.
Guest:Yeah, right, right.
Guest:But, you know, the two characters that I couldn't ever like really get away from and where the name really stuck is Yvette and Cookie throughout my entire career.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah, Yvette.
Marc:That was her name.
Guest:That was her name.
Guest:Yvette.
Guest:Yvette and Yvette.
Marc:The way you said Jody.
Guest:I know.
Guest:That's what everybody was like.
Guest:It was the way Jody.
Guest:It just sound like this couple were together and she said his name like she loved and hated him at the same time.
Marc:You know what?
Marc:Like when I think about that movie and I do like fairly often, there's a couple of movies that like I just I think about a lot.
Marc:But that scene where Snoop's character comes home and he's a killer.
Marc:But the way you handled him, even being as menacing as he was, and your character when you stop him from basically raping you.
Marc:And he does.
Marc:But you make assumptions about how this is going to go.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And somehow in that scene, it was so believable that your strength and your clarity in that moment could speak to whatever the child is.
Marc:That beast.
Marc:Right.
Guest:That beast in him.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And also the child in him you brought out.
Marc:It's like, what are you doing in front of my son?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was all John.
Guest:That was.
Guest:But, you know, the clever.
Guest:It was interesting because we had to make Snoop Dogg look menacing because that's not even that's not.
Guest:He's such.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was like, John, come on, man.
Guest:I love the ladies.
Guest:I don't hit the ladies.
Guest:I was like, well, Snoop, in order for this scene to work, I got to be scared because if you grab me like this real light, I'm a run and go call the police.
Guest:And so he did it in one take.
Guest:I took off running.
Guest:I was like, how?
Guest:How?
Guest:But they started laughing.
Guest:I said, see?
Guest:So you really?
Guest:But he still wouldn't do it.
Guest:So it was literally me pushing myself on the bed.
Guest:Oh, he couldn't do it.
Guest:And the way John set the camera to make him look menacing because he really had a problem with that.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:He did not like that at all.
Guest:And I was like, Snoop, I know you would never put your hands on a woman, but it's called acting and we kind of need you to because we want to go home.
Yeah.
Guest:We have like 10 other scenes to shoot today.
Guest:Like, come on.
Marc:Now, this new thing that you're doing with the Facebook watch, peace of mind.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:This is like, how do you see this project?
Guest:I see this project as therapy for all of us, even myself and my best friend.
Marc:You're basically talking about mental health issues.
Guest:Yeah, well, we're...
Guest:We're educating an audience that really does not talk about mental health at all.
Guest:And for that matter, don't really take care of that mental health because it's not talked about.
Guest:The black community does not talk about mental health.
Guest:We have learned to cope by being strong.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that's dangerous.
Guest:It's killing us.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:And we need to stop passing that down because it's been passed down to us in slavery.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Marc:How do you see that?
Marc:Just by taking it?
Guest:Because the coping skills.
Marc:A feeling of a lack of agency?
Guest:That, but how we cope through trauma instead of dealing with it and saying, oh, this is why I respond like that, because this happened or you don't have to be strong.
Guest:And first of all, you can't pray away a mental illness.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that's what we've been told to do.
Guest:We're often demonized.
Guest:You know, our children in school, when they act out from a traumatic situation, they may be going through at home.
Guest:Children don't want to act out.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But when they do it, it always seems to be our children get demonized.
Guest:Cops show up, arrest them.
Guest:Well, we need clinicians, therapists, psychiatrists in place in schools to know when a child is dealing with trauma.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Instead of criminalizing them.
Marc:Right, because sometimes it's just passed down.
Guest:Passed down.
Marc:And then if it's not taken care of properly, it just can become criminal.
Guest:Absolutely, because if you are bipolar and you are taking medicine, you know when bipolar people, when they're suffering from bipolarism and they have a manic episode?
Marc:Yeah, I grew up with it.
Marc:My dad's bipolar.
Guest:They don't remember what the fuck they did.
Marc:No, but they miss it.
Marc:They like it.
Guest:You think so?
Marc:Sometimes I knew that like with my dad, like he would, you know, like it was exciting to be manic.
Marc:So, you know, when the depression comes, they all they think is all they feel is the depression, but they miss the manic because when they're manic, they think they're normal.
Guest:No, but see, I've seen manic where they think they're God.
Guest:You know what I'm saying?
Guest:So it's different kinds of manic.
Marc:No, yeah, my dad, yeah, he just got to the level of like wasting money, you know, doing, you know, things, but never sort of like, I'm moving.
Guest:out of the out of mind total out of my yeah i've seen that and so in your family yeah friends family i've seen it and so when that happens a lot of times most times black people are criminalized instead of something's clearly off here because this gentleman who's sitting before me doesn't even sound like the person in this report you know yeah
Guest:So we have to bring awareness so that people are treated and handled with the proper care because 80 percent of the prison population don't belong there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's not a correctional facility anymore.
Guest:No.
Guest:It's a money making business.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:So the more inmates, the more money.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And a lot of those people are there because they have mental health issues.
Guest:That's not rehabilitating to put someone who had who was suffering from a mental illness in a cage with no help.
Marc:No.
Marc:What was the inspiration for doing this?
Guest:My dad.
Guest:My dad suffered.
Guest:You know, he had PTSD.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Manic depression.
Guest:Well, back then it was called manic depression.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Did more research.
Guest:And he wore his heart on his sleeve.
Guest:He didn't hide.
Guest:He told his story to everyone.
Guest:He tried to commit suicide once with a gun to his head and it missed.
Guest:And he would sit and show you his scar and tell you something because his thing is he never wanted anybody to go through what he went through.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, and he would always say, I want to be famous.
Guest:Make sure you put me in one of your movies one day.
Guest:The world should know Boris Lawrence because he was an artist as well.
Guest:What kind of art?
Guest:Objects, metal, metal.
Guest:He could do anything.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He made metal masks.
Guest:Sculptor.
Guest:Sculptor.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:He just was very honest, even though he.
Guest:He didn't seek the therapy that he probably should have.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But he was honest.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was like, this is a great way for the world to finally know my dad.
Guest:And he was such a huge part of my life and why I'm this successful, because if he didn't challenge me to move to L.A., where would I be?
Marc:Right.
Guest:You know.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But how did his illness, were there times where it became taxing?
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:Because you were in two, he lived wherever he lived.
Guest:But I spent a lot of time with my dad.
Guest:I would be with my mom this weekend, my dad this weekend.
Marc:Right, but your mom, was it more stability?
Guest:Yeah, way more stability with him.
Guest:Not until my dad got older, understood what was going on in his life, and met my stepmother.
Guest:And they, you know, he really got his, that's when he was able to get the house and the garage and the Harley and every, his life came together.
Guest:And it felt good to finally see my dad stable, you know.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But so going in and out of that, because a lot of times...
Marc:When you're when you're brought up by people who don't have that emotional consistency because of their own problems, you know, it makes makes you, you know, I had to trace back some of my.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:Me as well in therapy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And why I'm such a caretaker and why I'm always trying to fix.
Guest:Because I was always there to put my dad back together.
Guest:And at a young age, that's unfair.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:But that's in me now.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:That's why I'm married.
Guest:Because I find the men that I need to fix.
Guest:You can't fix anybody.
Marc:I know.
Marc:It's hard when you're wired to be attracted to mentally ill people.
Right.
Guest:When you're mentally ill yourself.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:This all makes sense now.
Marc:I grew up with this.
Guest:Right.
Guest:This feels familiar.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:So what and how big of a challenge is it to I mean, I talk about mental health pretty openly on this show.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And it seems like everything is still, no matter how much you think the culture talks about anything, it's still pretty stigmatized because most people don't want to think it's them.
Marc:So they'll hear about something, but they don't think it's them.
Marc:And that's part of the sickness sometimes.
Guest:But see, that's why I like that I'm seeing all of these conversations being had now.
Guest:Because you can't run from, oh, that sounds like what I did before.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:But you got to want help.
Guest:But but the thing about it is if you if you've never, ever, ever, ever talked about it, you don't think you need help because it's never been presented that way to you.
Guest:How do you know?
Guest:So that's what this show is about, because I'm finding things out about me.
Guest:We did an episode about dealing with social anxiety.
Guest:And I think a lot of us because I didn't realize that that's what I suffer from sometimes.
Guest:I couldn't put my... It became normal for me because it didn't happen.
Guest:I thought I developed this during the pandemic and the shutdown.
Guest:When the world started slowly opening back up, I was like, I would talk myself out of going to the store.
Yeah.
Guest:But that started happening before when I, you know, through therapy, you start going back in time and it's like, oh, that had nothing to do with COVID.
Guest:I was actually doing that in Chicago.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Cookie brought such a different level of fame to me.
Guest:I was usually operating under the radar.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:They would be like, is that her?
Guest:By the time they figured it out, I was out the store.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But Cookie made me popular.
Guest:And that's a different type of attention.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Like, yeah.
Guest:I had been doing this for a while.
Marc:And how do you maintain boundaries when all that's coming at you, all that attention and people think they know you?
Guest:Security.
Marc:Security.
Marc:But it's an interesting thing that I'm just thinking and, you know, I might be projecting, but it seems that within the black community that that social anxiety, you know, is a legitimate concern in certain situations that there is a consciousness that you that you were in this body that is going to draw the attention of white people in a certain way.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:And, you know, I had to deal with that, too, because it's like I lived in an area where everybody when I get on the elevator, they're looking at me like, what you doing here?
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I'm draped in all of the high fashion, the tags, the labels, everything that screams this woman belongs here.
Guest:She has money.
Guest:Still, I'm being, you know, and even though I don't allow that to I don't take it all the way in.
Guest:It is in me.
Guest:You know, it affects me.
Guest:I'll be like, why did that man look at me like that on the elevator?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know what I'm saying?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I'm now I'm looking at people in the elevator like this.
Guest:I dare you look at me.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:It's just right.
Guest:It's like.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So like it's walking into a room where you're the only black person, you brace yourself.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Like it's living like that all the time.
Guest:But that's the thing.
Guest:It's not cool that we function like that's right.
Marc:But you're correct.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then but that is the coping thing.
Guest:But we have to talk.
Guest:But then I know that.
Marc:But that's bad.
Marc:It's bad.
Guest:We must talk about it.
Guest:Yeah, we must.
Guest:And we can't laugh about it.
Guest:You know, black people, we have a way of making jokes to cope.
Guest:And that's OK to a certain extent.
Guest:But when are we really going to deal with it?
Guest:Little thing, and I'm telling you, it's deep on how this trauma, this generational trauma has been passed down to us since slavery because we haven't really dealt with that.
Guest:We still don't talk about that.
Guest:Remember, we can't do critical race teaching in school, right?
Guest:You know, when you talk about slavery, you get a glimpse of it.
Guest:Now, I didn't really learn a lot about the Middle Passage until I enrolled into an HBCU.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so now that I'm in the mental health field.
Marc:That's the history.
Yeah.
Guest:That's how this country was built.
Guest:No one wants to talk about it.
Marc:Well, I mean, certain people want to talk about it, but the people that don't want to talk about it want to keep it like that.
Guest:You have to find the information.
Guest:But that's my point.
Guest:And how many of us are going to seek out that information?
Guest:So I learned that hush puppies were actually given to the dogs when the slaves were trying to run to freedom to keep them off their trail.
Marc:Interesting.
Guest:Hush puppies.
Guest:Now, look at how we've normalized.
Marc:Like that fried cornbread thing?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:But look at how we normalized it.
Marc:Yeah, I enjoy them.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And black people don't even realize.
Marc:That's what it means.
Marc:Hush puppies.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:I didn't know that.
Guest:It's in our DNA as well.
Guest:I have a phobia of being in small, tight spaces.
Guest:Is that in my DNA from running away to slave to freedom?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Marc:I agree with you.
Marc:I think that the nuances of what is carried through generations that becomes almost genetic can be psychological.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:Because there is a way that one behaves, that you grow up, you're wired by your environment and how your people are reacting.
Marc:Sure, why wouldn't it be historical?
Guest:Because my grandmother.
Marc:Generational.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:My grandmother, you know, she's like one generation away from picking cotton in the fields.
Guest:My grandfather was a sharecropper.
Guest:They lived on a big acre, a field of cotton.
Guest:And that's how my family, my grandmother had eight children and that's how they all made money.
Guest:They picked cotton and all of the kids working and the dad and $300 a month is what they made.
Guest:And they lived in a two bedroom house with a tin roof.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, I think that, I think we all, I don't forget, but I think in order to put things in a historical perspective, you have to realize that this shit wasn't that long ago.
Guest:It wasn't.
Guest:My mom went to, you know, if you ever, I mean, everybody knows my age, you can Google it, but this is going to date me for sure.
Guest:My mom went to a one room school, like little house on the prairie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My mother, not my grandmother, my mother.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, where was that in North Carolina?
Guest:Scotland, North Carolina.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And my grandmother was the help.
Guest:You know, that that's that's like that's two generations ago.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, so I'm saying all of that to say that, of course, my grandmother, be careful when you get around them white folk.
Guest:That's.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, so when I went to the country, I that was put in me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know what I'm saying?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Don't you mouth back to the white because you don't eat them.
Guest:You know, that was in me.
Guest:And then I'll get back to the city and be like, I could feel myself doing that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, it wasn't until I found my voice where I was like, I don't have to do that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:1980.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it's right there.
Guest:It's right there.
Marc:And how is this landing in the community, the show?
Guest:It's, you know, I'm overwhelmed with how well it's being received by us.
Guest:And not only, this show is not just for African Americans.
Guest:This show is for everyone.
Guest:Because when you understand someone's struggles with
Guest:What they might be going through.
Guest:This is empathy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:This is allowing space for grace.
Guest:And this is what my best friend likes to call it.
Guest:Allow space for grace because, you know, I'm learning things and I'll connect it to a person that I had an encounter with and I'll be like, oh,
Guest:Oh, my God, I never thought that maybe we were having the episode, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it'll give us it.
Guest:I think it makes he makes us better as humans if we just understand each other a little more.
Guest:And that's why this mental health conversation is so important.
Guest:empathy is tricky you know because people are so self-involved i mean so self-involved and it's not i mean i don't think they plan to be it's just the nature of how shit is yeah i gotta get to where i'm going somebody cut you off you're not even aware maybe they just heard just now somebody died and they're racing tonight all you know is bitch you cut me off right
Guest:You know?
Guest:So I think if we could just all slow down and breathe before we react and just consider the other person.
Guest:It takes a big person to do that.
Marc:It just takes a breath.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:It's like, because I just had a moment like that.
Marc:And also, it's relative to your life experience.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, who you were a year ago.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And who you are today could be totally different because something happened to you make you more sensitive to other people.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or not.
Guest:Or enraged.
Guest:This person did that to me, so everybody that looks like him, I'm ready.
Marc:Yeah, can go either way.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it's very exciting to have those breakthroughs to allow that kind of open-hearted, I don't know if it's joy, but those moments, they're emotional.
Marc:Everyone's very guarded, so they're afraid to let it down.
Guest:Well, you won't, you won't be, and that's the narrative we need to change.
Guest:Strength is in the vulnerability.
Guest:Change is in the vulnerability.
Guest:Strong, we aren't built to be strong.
Guest:A wall and a building is built to be strong.
Marc:And also sometimes strength is just defensiveness.
Marc:Strong.
Guest:Strength is just being vulnerable.
Guest:Strength is being your truth, being honest enough to say, this doesn't feel good.
Guest:I don't feel good.
Guest:You don't make me feel good.
Guest:What you said triggered me.
Guest:But if you're always standing with your guards up and strong, strong, strong,
Marc:that's gonna break you're gonna break down eventually that's how nervous breakdowns happen because you hit a wall with the coping mechanism yeah yeah or you just sort of like you know you give up yeah yeah you know yeah you get tired of holding trying to be strong you're not a building you're not the empire state building yeah well that's also the thing you said earlier in some relation to something else that like i'm 58 i just turned 58 and i like i give a lot less fucks
Guest:Let me tell you, they're all behind me now.
Marc:All the fucks?
Guest:All of them.
Guest:All the fucks I had are behind me now.
Marc:Well, congratulations.
Guest:Yeah, I can't help you.
Guest:I literally would... No.
Guest:No explanation.
Guest:No.
Guest:I can't do it.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I don't want to.
Marc:Feels good, right?
Guest:It feels great.
Marc:Oh, good.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:It's great talking to you.
Guest:You as well.
Guest:This was fun.
Guest:I knew it would be, though.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:Good.
Guest:Thanks for coming.
Guest:Thanks for having me.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:How fun was that?
Marc:I love her.
Marc:Peace of Mind with Taraji is now in its second season on Facebook Watch.
Marc:Now let's play this new strat.
Marc:Let's play this fucking strat.
.
.
you
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.
so
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey LaFonda.
Marc:Cat.
Marc:What?
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.
Guest:Cat angels everywhere.
Thank you.