Episode 1266 - Rosebud Baker
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf i just drank a soda just giving you a heads up i don't know what's gonna come out of me
Marc:You know that feeling where you're like, that was refreshing.
Marc:I just drank that soda really fast.
Marc:Then all of a sudden, the entire air content of the soda comes out mid-sentence.
Marc:But I'll cut it out.
Marc:That was a quiet one.
Marc:I think we can live with that.
Marc:I don't know, folks.
Marc:I do know that...
Marc:Rosebud Baker is on the show.
Marc:She's a comic.
Marc:She opened for me a couple of years ago in Toronto.
Marc:I remembered her because she's got a special out and the name came up.
Marc:I'm like, how do I know her?
Marc:Well, she just released a special.
Marc:It's on Comedy Central.
Marc:And she's in this new upcoming Hulu series with Amy Schumer.
Marc:And she's a recovery person.
Marc:She's got the recovery tail.
Marc:But she's also the granddaughter of James Baker III.
Marc:Satan.
Marc:I can't tell you during the first Bush presidency, first president, the dad, how obsessed I was.
Marc:with James Baker III, chief of staff, George H.W.
Marc:Bush.
Marc:He was the chief of staff for Reagan.
Marc:He had cabinet positions under Ford and Reagan, Bush, all of them.
Marc:He also ran the 2000 presidential recount for the Republicans.
Marc:We all know how that went.
Marc:But I was obsessed with this guy and the Carlyle Group and, you know, the big global conspiracy.
Marc:That was before conspiracies were hot and righty.
Marc:They were kind of off the grid and lefty.
Marc:But James Baker held a prominent position as one of the major Satans.
Marc:And I think arguably he was still alive.
Marc:So I imagine I say something to her about that.
Marc:About being the granddaughter of Satan.
Marc:Now, what if her family's listening to this, her dad or maybe James?
Marc:I'm sorry, man.
Marc:You manage the world.
Marc:You didn't do a great job.
Marc:Scary, powerful person.
Marc:Please don't have me killed.
Marc:Please.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I'm just it's back in the day.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's back in the day.
Marc:So my birthday was good.
Marc:I had a nice day.
Marc:A lot of people called to wish me a happy birthday.
Marc:I got did I get presents?
Marc:I got a couple of presents.
Marc:I don't need to talk about it.
Marc:My present to myself came, my Stratocaster, which is great.
Marc:I played at the end of this show.
Marc:I got big, meaty fingers.
Marc:My dumb, meaty fingers on that little neck.
Marc:Tricky, but it's doable.
Marc:I'm getting the hang of it.
Marc:58 years old.
Marc:I keep thinking about that.
Marc:58.
Marc:Both my parents are still alive.
Marc:And I'm 58.
Marc:They had me when they were children.
Marc:I'm almost 60.
Marc:I got to get through the 50s.
Marc:I got a superstition about it.
Marc:I got to get through my 50s.
Marc:So, listen...
Marc:Rosebud Baker, her Comedy Central stand-up special Whiskey Fists can be seen in full on Comedy Central's YouTube channel.
Marc:She also hosts two podcasts, Devil's Advocate and Find Your Beach, which you can get wherever you get podcasts.
Marc:And I remember when I met her, the night she was opening for me,
Marc:I thought she was pretty tough.
Marc:I decided she's hard somehow.
Marc:She's tough.
Marc:And then I talked to her.
Marc:I don't know if that's true.
Marc:She's got a dark sensibility, which I appreciate.
Marc:And I think I mentioned enough that she's the granddaughter of Satan, James Baker III.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, imagine that.
Marc:But I enjoy talking to her.
Marc:This is me talking to Rosebud Baker.
Marc:where did you grow up i grew up in virginia virginia oh you're not texan nova nova virginia yeah oh so like i went to high school like right next to langley oh really yeah so you were close to dc um and like uh but like i have to get it out out get out ahead of this that uh your grandfather yeah
Marc:James Baker.
Marc:Right.
Marc:The third.
Marc:He's the third.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I was I when I was more conspiratorially minded.
Guest:We all were.
Guest:We all had a phase.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:When I was it was when Bush senior was in office.
Marc:I was I was sure that your grandfather was the Antichrist.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's been times when I've still been sure that my grandfather's the Antichrist and that he passed it on to me.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:There's like a- But you're like a more progressive Antichrist.
Guest:Yeah, I guess so.
Guest:I don't even know what I am now.
Marc:No?
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:I feel- He's a monumental kind of like, by the time he was with George Bush Sr., he ran the world.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And he was with Nixon, or no, he was with Ford and Reagan.
Guest:Reagan.
Guest:Just Reagan and Bush.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:He wasn't... He might have been involved with Ford, but as far as I know, he never touched the White House until Reagan.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:That's what I thought.
Marc:Well, I can check, but I believe you.
Marc:You should check.
Guest:Don't believe me.
Marc:You should check.
Marc:I do feel like he was like Lieutenant something with Ford, like Commerce...
Guest:By the way, this is a very common occurrence where somebody will bring up my grandfather and then prove to me that they know him better than I do.
Marc:I don't know him.
Marc:I just remember thinking he was- This is very common.
Marc:But now, wait, when you were growing up, so he was just grandpa or what?
Guest:Yeah, he was just my grandpa.
Guest:I mean, I knew that he was very important.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I knew that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like, I got that sense just from the way that my uncles acted around him.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So how was he your grandfather?
Marc:Let's see.
Guest:He's my dad's dad.
Marc:He's your dad's dad.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay, United States Undersecretary of Commerce in the Ford administration.
Guest:Oh, shit.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:So your dad's dad is that guy.
Guest:Yeah, my dad is James Baker IV.
Marc:What's your dad do?
Guest:My dad's a lawyer, like a corporate lawyer.
Guest:He's retired now.
Guest:He just retired.
Marc:And you have like a million sisters?
Guest:I do.
Guest:I have four sisters, three that are surviving.
Guest:I have one sister that passed away.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Like young.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Seven.
Marc:Seven?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, so you didn't know her?
Guest:I didn't know her, no.
Guest:I mean, when you break it down, I never really knew her.
Marc:You didn't know whether she liked kittens or anything.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, she was- How old were you?
Guest:I was 17.
Marc:When it happened?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, that's terrible.
Marc:So you knew.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's so that's the most appropriate response I've ever gotten because it's not hard to die.
Guest:It's so much harder to watch someone die than it is to actually die.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Most people go, oh, she died.
Guest:I'm so sorry.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm like, she's fine.
Marc:Right.
Marc:No, I know what I mean.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I've experienced that recently.
Marc:Death kind of it definitely fucks your head up.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, when you see it happen.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But so you were.
Marc:But I didn't know by watching the special that you were already like a teenager.
Marc:So you knew the baby.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, I was like there.
Guest:I mean, it happened at a graduation party for my high school graduation.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:People are like, how did you become a comic?
Guest:I'm like, I just, and then I just have to tell them like the background.
Marc:So the party's going on and it's like, oh my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, but here's the thing.
Guest:I had left to go to a different party and
Guest:Because I thought it was a better party.
Guest:And frankly, it was because nobody died.
Guest:But I was there.
Guest:And all of a sudden, I heard on the phone that something had happened to my sister.
Guest:And then all of a sudden, my other sisters were getting dropped off with me.
Guest:And then I was like, oh, something really bad happened.
Guest:It's like that gut feeling you get.
Guest:When something is very wrong.
Marc:It's just...
Marc:So what is the age difference?
Marc:What's the spread on the sisters?
Guest:So I'm the oldest.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Then my younger sister is, I guess she's two years younger than me.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Not quite, but almost two years younger.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Then six years younger and then 10 years younger.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So she was a twin.
Marc:Oh my God.
Guest:My sister who passed away, she had a twin.
Marc:Identical?
Guest:Fraternal.
Marc:So that must have destroyed the family.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it happened in tandem with my parents getting separated and then divorced.
Marc:And then because of that.
Guest:No, they were separated first and then she died.
Guest:And then my dad.
Guest:And my mom just, I think my dad brought his new girlfriend to the funeral.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Is what happened.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or she was there and we didn't know about her.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But then I found out that she was at the funeral.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that was how I found out that my dad was now seeing someone new.
Marc:Oh my God.
Guest:And it was like this whole, I was just like, get me the fuck out of here.
Marc:So did you grow up in a normal way?
Marc:Where I mean, were these good people?
Guest:I mean, I don't, I wouldn't.
Guest:I wouldn't say normal.
Guest:I would say typical.
Marc:Typical what?
Guest:Like, typical.
Guest:I don't really think that anybody grows up in a normal way.
Marc:Well, I mean, granted.
Marc:And also, your grandfather at the time... Did you go to the White House and shit?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:So that part was not typical.
Guest:But, like... I mean, going to, like, hunt Easter eggs at the White House was not typical.
Guest:But in my child mind, I was just going to, like, where my granddad worked.
Guest:I didn't... No, right.
Guest:I wasn't, like, impressed with any of it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I didn't see it as, like, this is...
Guest:And status was something that I never fully grasped.
Marc:But did you like hang out with the Bush grandkids?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you knew like all of them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And when they would come over, they would come over with like security.
Marc:To your house.
Guest:To my house.
Guest:And so they would have like the Secret Service outside of my house.
Marc:Right.
Marc:If H.W.
Marc:or one of the kids came.
Marc:I don't know what the age difference is, but they're all older.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So that was part of your life.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Dealing with the new world order.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was just part of my life.
Guest:And it was so normal in the way that it was all that I had.
Guest:It was all that I knew.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But you didn't go to public school.
Marc:I did.
Marc:You did.
Marc:I'm actually the only one.
Guest:I'm the only one who went to public school.
Marc:Were you just a disaster?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I mean, to be honest, in school I was.
Guest:In school I was a disaster.
Guest:But I wasn't like, you know, I wasn't a good student.
Guest:I never liked school.
Guest:And I don't know why I was the one that went to public school because I probably could have used a private school education.
Guest:Like I could have really used the attention.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I just didn't.
Guest:And I just...
Guest:They basically found a program for me where I got to go practice acting for half the day and then go to school, regular school for the other half.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I just did that.
Guest:I just went to I went to school for creative stuff and then I went to normal school.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And and that was like my day.
Marc:What was the creative stuff?
Guest:It was just acting.
Guest:I would just go.
Marc:So there was a separate school?
Guest:Yeah, it was this weird, it was this arts program that Fairfax County was doing.
Guest:And for students that were really particularly interested in the arts, we would go and practice whatever craft we wanted to.
Guest:And you were acting.
Guest:For half the day.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then we would go.
Marc:Well, that's nice.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was great.
Guest:I mean, I truly to this day still lack any formal education like knowledge because none of it, none of it got in.
Guest:Like it just didn't hit any place in my brain that where it was like, okay, it'll stick.
Marc:Government, history.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All of it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Math.
Guest:Math.
Guest:I'm absolutely I'm I'm I'm disabled.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I can divide and add and subtract and multiply.
Marc:But when it comes down to fractions or decimals.
Marc:No.
Guest:See, that's the fancy letters.
Guest:You're saying the hard stuff is hard for you.
Guest:I'm talking about what I'm talking about when I get a check and I have to figure out the tip.
Guest:I have to show it to someone else and I have to like count on my fingers three times to figure out what.
Marc:But there's a trick with the tip terms.
Guest:I know I can't remember it.
Guest:I can't.
Guest:It's been talked to me a million times.
Guest:I can't.
Guest:It doesn't go in.
Guest:Like when I read numbers, anything having to do with numbers like taxes, I mean, I'm doomed to if I ever make enough money to like buy a house, I'm going to go broke because it's I don't get it like.
Marc:Well, you got to hire somebody to do the numbers for you.
Guest:I know.
Guest:But the trust issues is the problem.
Marc:Well, yeah.
Marc:Eventually, you're going to have to trust somebody.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I know.
Marc:So you were acting in high school.
Marc:But like, are you a disaster?
Marc:Because, I mean, I watched the special.
Marc:It seems to me at some point you became a disaster.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I was really not good.
Marc:I don't mean to be rude.
Guest:No, I didn't stick out.
Guest:I wasn't able to blend into other people's agenda in a way that you have to in order to survive in public school.
Marc:Give me an example.
Marc:You were a complete outlier.
Marc:Wait, now, first of all, tell me, I met you because you opened for me in Toronto.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How did that happen?
Marc:Was it part of the festival?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That was like, uh, yeah.
Marc:Why were we both there?
Guest:I think it was the festival.
Marc:It was like that, that Toronto just for last.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:JFL 42.
Guest:That's what it's called.
Marc:But not Montreal.
Marc:And you were around and I was in, and you came in through there and I was like, where the fuck was this?
Marc:How I didn't know you.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I remember thinking you were great.
Marc:And I was like, where did you come from?
Marc:Where'd, how'd that happen?
Marc:But I back to not fitting in.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I there wasn't really a group for me, you know, like you had no friends.
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, I had friends, but they were all just like we were potheads.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:And our whole thing was like, we don't care about everybody else.
Guest:We're cooler than them because we don't care.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just sort of that like apathy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I tried when I first got into high school, I was part of the cheerleading squad.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because you're a fallen cheerleader.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I was benched.
Guest:I was benched from the cheerleading.
Marc:For what?
Guest:I made a joke that was like not good.
Guest:And somebody, I don't even remember what the joke was.
Marc:You do?
Guest:No, I really don't.
Guest:I really don't remember the joke.
Marc:In what area was it not good?
Marc:How was it insensitive?
Guest:In the Jewish area.
Marc:The anti-Semitic area.
Guest:It was the anti-Semitic area, right?
Guest:And I made this joke at one of the captains of the cheerleading squad.
Marc:Who was Jewish?
Guest:Who's Jewish?
Marc:All right.
Guest:And essentially, I was benched for like a couple of games, which obviously didn't make any difference.
Marc:But did that make you hate the Jews more?
Marc:Or did you learn your lesson about being anti-Semitic?
Guest:No, I learned my lesson.
Guest:They're very powerful people.
Yeah.
Marc:We own the world.
Marc:We run it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was like, they can just take it away.
Marc:Your grandfather was working for the big Jews.
Guest:Yeah, he was like, don't fuck with the Jews.
Marc:Yeah, the Zionist occupied government.
Guest:And I remember getting benched and being like, you know what?
Guest:I don't want to do this anymore.
Guest:Like realizing that and that I never wanted to do it in the first place.
Guest:It was one of those things where...
Guest:My whole life, when I don't want to do something, I'll find a way to fuck it up so I don't have to.
Marc:I'm sort of the same way.
Marc:It's not a good thing.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I mean, I think it is.
Marc:Well, it's self-protective, but there's easier ways to do it.
Marc:You could do it with making less of a mess by just going, hey, I don't want to do this, as opposed to be in the middle of it and go like, I'm going to burn this down.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it's also like having to take a moment before I say yes to something to go.
Guest:Do I really want to do this?
Guest:Or is this something I feel for no reason like I have to do?
Marc:Well, it's not for no reason, because like, I mean, I was the same way as you and when I was in high school and that I, you know, I knew everybody and I could move through groups.
Marc:But the reason you you do it is because you want to be part of things.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Like it's impulsive to be like, you know, oh, somebody wants me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:OK, I'll do it.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And then you like, fuck, this is terrible.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's I've done that with relationships over and over again.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:For me, it's like it's like a feeling of obligation that the world might fall apart if I don't say yes to this.
Guest:You know, your world.
Guest:It's yet.
Guest:No, theirs.
Guest:It's like I think I'm God.
Guest:On some level where I'm like, oh, if I don't appease this person, everything in there, like it could just ruin their day.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's so self-centered and it's such bullshit.
Guest:And I'm trying to get better at it.
Guest:But like, you know, I recently got married and that's been that's another thing where it's like I'm not a good wife in that I.
Guest:I like I love my husband, but I don't love the obligation.
Guest:Like, I don't think like obligation has nothing to do with love, but it has everything to do with marriage.
Marc:You don't like the whole wife part.
Marc:You love your husband, but the wife part.
Guest:It's listen, when we're arguing and he brings up he's I know he's losing the argument when he goes, you're my wife.
Guest:And I'm like, if you were winning this argument, you would not bring our marriage into this.
Guest:You wouldn't claim ownership.
Guest:Yeah, you wouldn't do this bullshit.
Guest:Where I'm like, I know that I married you because I love you, but I'm still my own person, and you're your own person.
Guest:And if we're going to have an argument, at least come to me trying to make me see your side without going, but I own you.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So it's a challenge for me.
Marc:What is that, though?
Marc:It's not really narcissism.
Marc:It's selfish, but it's more of a, the fuck is it?
Marc:You preemptively feel guilty.
Guest:It's a God complex, I think.
Marc:Is it?
Guest:At its core, I think it is.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Do you think you have that much impact?
Marc:For me, if I think about why I do that, it's just like I automatically assume that they're going to be compromised in some way.
Marc:Not that I play that big a role in their life, but the rejection, it's a projection of what the rejection will feel like if I felt it.
Guest:OK, so that's I feel like isn't that abandonment?
Guest:Isn't that an abandonment issue?
Marc:Yeah, it's some sort of boundary codependency kind of thing.
Guest:Because like behaviors, you can have two people doing the same behavior.
Marc:You don't want to disappoint people.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But that's it's like so it's like what?
Guest:Why do you think that you have that much power over someone's?
Marc:I think it's a projection.
Marc:Yeah, it must be abandonment on your side.
Guest:I don't care if they abandon me.
Marc:If they abandon me, I feel better.
Marc:You must have some sort of hurt feelings about something.
Guest:It's more of like if I don't say yes to what this person needs, they're going to fall apart.
Guest:And then I'm going to feel guilty later because I ruined their life.
Guest:It's all...
Guest:At its core, it's all being raised by children who didn't know how to.
Marc:No, yeah, I had that same experience.
Marc:Your parents were children.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, they were children.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I say about my parents, I say that they don't really function as parents.
Marc:They're just these people I grew up with.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think that way about family in general.
Marc:In general.
Marc:Some people have good parents.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I mean, they say they do, but I never believe them.
Guest:But I'm always just like, you are fucked.
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:No, but I believe that some people have at least grounded people.
Marc:Well, you know what I mean?
Marc:That there are parents that were selfless enough and grown up enough to understand the obligation of parenting.
Guest:Right.
Marc:You know, I. Yeah.
Marc:And that enables people to have some better sense of self than I do.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know.
Guest:But I feel like if anyone fully understood the obligation of parenting fully, they would never have kids.
Marc:Well, yeah, but that's like neither here.
Guest:That's another argument.
Marc:You're right.
Guest:We're getting into movies.
Guest:No, no, no.
Marc:I'm just saying that like I don't have them and I don't feel bad about not having them.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I don't think about it.
Marc:It's not on principle.
Marc:I'm not like, you know, like my parents did this or that, so I'm never going to have kids.
Marc:I'm just selfish and panicky and full of dread.
Marc:And I'm like, I don't, you know, and I'm fine with that on my own, but I don't need to.
Marc:And people ask me, like, don't you ever get lonely?
Marc:I'm like, I do, but I never think like a kid would, you know.
Guest:I think that's the opposite of selfish, Mark.
Marc:I think that's like.
Marc:I'm helping the world.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think you acknowledging all of that and going, I'm not going to do that to someone.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Is the most selfless thing.
Guest:And I feel like kids are people that don't have kids.
Guest:They get called selfish all the time.
Guest:But every person I know with kids, it's like the world revolves around their life.
Guest:Like it's I don't.
Marc:And also, it's like, they're not, it's, I don't know, man.
Marc:You know, like, I don't begrudge anybody, kids, and I don't have anything against kids.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But, you know, it is a choice.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And for some reason, a lot of people just think, like, automatically, we're going to have them.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's like, you don't have to have them.
Guest:Just part of the life script.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I don't, and I understand it's part of the animal script, but we're not dogs.
Marc:Right.
Marc:We're not running, just sniffing and fucking.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know, so.
Marc:Most of us.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Some nights are different.
Marc:Yeah, you know, sometimes it's a Friday.
Marc:You gotta do what you gotta do.
Marc:So you're growing up in that, but did you enjoy the acting?
Guest:I loved it.
Guest:Yeah, I loved it.
Marc:Did you do it seriously for a while?
Guest:I did.
Guest:Since I was a kid, I used to perform.
Guest:I would put these big plays up all over the neighborhood and, like, big productions.
Guest:I'm talking, like, casts of, like, 15 kids.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Full stage production.
Guest:I'd have, like, a sibling that I didn't like selling tickets.
Guest:And I just, like...
Guest:Would make shows.
Guest:And I loved doing that.
Guest:That was like something that I knew I was good at where I stood out in a way that impressed people.
Guest:And that was really what I grew up around is like, what can you do to impress us?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:It was a very achievement based place.
Marc:And that comes down through your dad.
Guest:I think it comes down through my dad, but it's also Northern Virginia is like the highest concentration of wealth in the country.
Marc:Well, I mean, what's your what'd your mom do?
Guest:She was an artist.
Guest:She was a painter.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Good.
Marc:Abstract.
Marc:Realistic.
Marc:Realistic.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Oil painter.
Guest:She does landscapes still.
Guest:Now she's like killing it.
Guest:She's an incredible painter.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And she she lives in Maine.
Guest:She and my dad are divorced.
Guest:She like bought a house in Maine and Thomaston on the St.
Guest:George.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just paints and is like happy.
Guest:So good.
Guest:I mean, it's so great to see her doing it because she just did a children's book.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Guest:Illustrating now.
Guest:And but she stopped painting for my whole childhood.
Guest:Like she stopped.
Marc:She was a painter when she met your dad.
Guest:Yeah, she had her own business, she was painting, she lived in New York and she would do these big murals in businesses around New York City.
Guest:And I think she tried to keep it up through about half of her pregnancy with me and then stopped for a little while and then went back to it.
Guest:But then eventually, I remember when the twins were born, all of a sudden her paintings were all in the attic and it was like the saddest thing to see.
Guest:As a kid who was creative.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I just thought like, oh, I guess that's not something that you do.
Guest:That's not something that you can do.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:Or get to do.
Marc:It's not practical.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And your old man was just what?
Marc:He was like...
Guest:He was just, he's like an emotional Fort Knox.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Shut down.
Guest:Real shut down, yeah.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:Very, and I recently started reading more about my granddad to try to understand my dad more.
Marc:Can you call your granddad?
Guest:Yeah, but he wouldn't give me the answers.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:I have to read a book to get the answers.
Guest:Is he Texan?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He and my dad and my mom are all from Texas.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And I read Peter Baker's book, The Man Who Ran Washington.
Guest:I started reading that book.
Marc:About your grandfather?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:To try to get to know my grandfather.
Marc:How'd that go?
Guest:Honestly, it was really... It opened up a lot.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:I was like, oh, okay, I get it.
Guest:I started to see letters that my grandfather's father would send him, Captain Baker, right?
Guest:So he would send him these letters at the Hill School, which is where my grandfather went to school and where my two sisters went to school after me.
Guest:But these letters were so...
Guest:I mean, they looked like the letters, the emails that my dad would send to me, you know, they were like, you've been a very satisfactory son.
Guest:And obviously, I got an improved version of what that was.
Guest:But it was it was I would get emails that said, like.
Guest:And it would be all business.
Guest:And then it would be like, love you.
Guest:And then right underneath that, there would be a confidentiality notice.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it always made me laugh.
Guest:It was like, I love you.
Guest:Don't tell anybody.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, so it was all very a little detached, a little detached, but encouraging.
Guest:I wouldn't say that.
Guest:I wouldn't say encouraging.
Guest:It was always like I would say something I wanted to do and they would go.
Guest:What about this instead?
Marc:So.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So it was always like you weren't good enough.
Guest:That's how I internalized it.
Guest:I don't think that they were ever intentionally sending me that message.
Guest:And I think that if they knew how the message was being received, they probably, I might be giving them too much credit here, but they probably would have changed the way they talked to me.
Guest:But I...
Guest:I like to think of it that way so that I'm not living in resentment throughout my adult life.
Marc:Well, did your dad get along with his dad?
Guest:I think he had the similar relationship.
Guest:I think he had a relationship with his dad that was like, I'm going to try to impress you because that's the way that I can get attention from you.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it's so funny because my dad, when I was working trying to be an actress, he would send me news articles during times when I was not speaking to him.
Guest:He would send me these news articles that were just like, it was like Tina Fey or Sarah Silverman.
Guest:Look at the people that are doing things.
Guest:Yeah, and he would go, you know, you're funny.
Guest:You should really be a comic.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and that was the most insulting thing you could have said to me at the time.
Marc:Wait, so this is after, did you go to college?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, so at some point you learned something, no?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:I mean, I learned like- Just not math.
Guest:Yeah, just not math.
Guest:I mean, once I was sent to Emerson, I learned- Oh, you went to Emerson?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Yeah, I- So that's like the college version of the acting program that you were- Right.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:It wasn't like-
Guest:Especially then, too, because Emerson now, I think, is a better college.
Guest:I'll say Emerson, and people go, oh, Emerson, and they know it.
Marc:Well, back then, it was just that one building down on Beacon Street.
Marc:I think there was another one down off the Commons.
Marc:It's a bigger operation now, and there might be even one here.
Guest:Right, so that started to happen while I was there.
Marc:When I was there, it was just that one place down on Beacon Street.
Guest:Yeah, and then there was the little building, which was on the other side of the green.
Marc:Right, but not far.
Guest:Yeah, just right across the commons.
Marc:I don't know if there was that building then.
Marc:The way I remember it, it doesn't matter.
Marc:Because I knew people that went there, like Dave Cross and people, but I'm 57.
Marc:And it definitely was not, the one at the commons was not there yet.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It really blew up while, I saw it blow up right after I left, but it was starting the process of it.
Marc:What did you study there?
Marc:Who was teaching?
Marc:Were there old comics teaching?
Guest:No, there was no comedy program.
Guest:It was all just like the students kind of doing comedy together.
Marc:Oh, because there were definitely stand-ups who taught there at times back in the day.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What was the curriculum like?
Marc:You were just doing acting?
Guest:I was just doing acting.
Guest:I was in the BFA program.
Guest:I did acting, and I was a dancer, so I did dance.
Marc:You do dance?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Imagine how big you could be on TikTok.
Guest:I know.
Marc:Do you ever look at that lady who does the dancing?
Guest:I mean, what do you mean?
Guest:All the ladies?
Marc:For some reason, I've locked into one lady on TikTok who seems to be one of the original TikTok dancers.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Calidactyl.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:The blonde lady.
Marc:Catchy.
Marc:No, I don't know what she does.
Marc:I'm not even on TikTok.
Guest:Am I allowed to vape in here if it's nicotine?
Marc:I don't care.
Marc:I don't know why, but I'll watch her little dances on Instagram and I'll be like, that was fun.
Guest:You know, I think about that.
Guest:I think about like how... She's a blonde lady.
Guest:If I had just... I have no idea who she is.
Guest:There's no way.
Guest:And I don't use TikTok because... I don't either.
Marc:I don't know what it is.
Marc:It's for... It's for children, right?
Guest:12-year-olds.
Marc:Yeah, something.
Guest:I was talking to... Do you know Cypher Sounds?
Marc:Cypher Sounds?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What's that?
Guest:He's a DJ and a comic.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's at the cellar in New York a lot.
Guest:And I ran into him on the steps of the VU.
Guest:And I go, what's the matter?
Guest:He goes, I'm in TikTok jail.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:And I was like, you're 40.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, what the fuck is going on?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:How is this happening?
Marc:Anyway.
Marc:How was it happening?
Guest:He's, I don't know.
Guest:I mean, he's like, this is the problem with like my generation specifically.
Guest:It's like we don't, we cannot accept that we're like getting older.
Guest:I think, I think your generation a little bit too.
Marc:You don't have to answer me.
Marc:No, I can answer.
Marc:It's 36.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I was like, I, for a while I was like, I'm not going to say how old I am.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I just thought, fuck that.
Guest:I can't deal with it anymore.
Guest:Like I can't deal with it.
Guest:I've lied to so many people about my age.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's like, I'm just done.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, well, that's, I don't know what generation that is.
Marc:What are you considered?
Guest:Millennial.
Marc:You're a millennial.
Guest:Older millennial.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:36.
Guest:36.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So how much acting and dancing did you do professionally?
Yeah.
Guest:Um, I mean, basically none.
Guest:I would, I tried, you know, I mean, I came to New York and I wanted to be an actor and I studied at William Esper's studio and I just, it was good.
Guest:It was, I think it was the reason I,
Guest:I started there like right when I... He was one of the big guys.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he recently passed away.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:RIP.
Guest:He is fantastic.
Guest:He was a great teacher.
Guest:And we used to butt heads a lot, but I liked that about him.
Guest:Over what?
Guest:Well, he would be really supportive of people that I thought were shitty.
Guest:And so I was an asshole.
Guest:And I was like very newly sober.
Guest:And I remember just being like...
Guest:Why are you saying that that was good?
Guest:I remember asking, what is it about that that was good?
Marc:Into the class.
Marc:With the person sitting right there.
Guest:Yeah, he was like, does anybody have anything to say?
Guest:And I remember being like, yeah, I don't... Why are you saying that that's done?
Guest:Because he gave a couple notes and he was like, does anybody else want to say anything?
Guest:And I was like, yeah, I don't understand why you said that.
Guest:Do you just think he's not...
Guest:salvageable like i remember right right you can't help that guy yeah it's a pity thing yeah i was like because you were really fucking mean to me yeah when i did when i went up and yeah you know you made me sing that's humiliating like to get into a role yeah and you're just letting this guy do off the hook yeah yeah and i remember him just like standing up and being like you shut your fucking mouth really yes
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And he was right.
Guest:Like, that was not, I should not have said that.
Marc:And you stayed in the class?
Guest:I did stay in the class, yeah.
Marc:I was in one of those type of classes where you have the sort of cult figure teacher and everyone just sitting around watching everyone else work.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And it's just, it's brutal.
Marc:And, you know, and it's tedious.
Marc:And at some point, like, it's interesting that, like, at some point you're like, I've had enough of this guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Talking.
Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think I just got I think I just got fed up because I was like, I I did have that level of respect for him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I also I've always I haven't ever been really much of a joiner.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And when I see a lot of people jump on board with something, I just don't I don't like I want to challenge that person's expectations that everyone is going to fall right on the same party line.
Marc:Yeah, no, I get it.
Marc:I understand if so many people like it, how could it be good?
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:And what about me?
Guest:Right.
Guest:How am I going to stand out?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How come this isn't about me?
Marc:Right.
Marc:What did that person do?
Marc:Wait, how old were you when you got sober?
Guest:I was 23 at the time.
Marc:Oh, so you were in New York like what, two years?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And you hit the wall?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How bad.
Guest:It was bad.
Guest:It was like blacking out.
Guest:I used to black out and like run at the edge of my roof trying to kill myself and then would come out of the blackout.
Guest:Well, this...
Marc:How do you know that that's what you did?
Guest:Because I would come out of this.
Guest:This happened one time.
Guest:This wasn't like an every night occasion, but I came out of this blackout and I thought someone was pushing me off the roof.
Guest:And then I realized that I pushed back.
Marc:You were fighting yourself.
Guest:Yeah, I was like, oh, I was a liar liar.
Guest:You know, that scene where he's like, I'm kicking my own ass.
Guest:But I turned around and my ex was like across the roof, like in tears because he thought that I was like he was just screaming, you know, like terrified.
Guest:And I remember turning around and seeing him do that.
Guest:and it never settled in my mind, oh, you were trying to kill yourself.
Guest:I just went to, why the fuck are you crying?
Guest:I went into that place where I was like, I was drinking, you fucking loser.
Guest:And I was a really violent drunk.
Guest:And obviously I'm 5'3", so I wasn't exactly a formidable... How long had the drinking been an issue?
Marc:Like when, if you look back at your inventory, when did you start?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, right after my sister died was when it started to like escalate.
Marc:At 17.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was like, she passed away and then I, once I, I mean, it's tricky because there's alcoholism in my family, so right when I started, I was trying to control it, right?
Guest:I was like trying, I was one of those people.
Guest:You grew up with alcoholism?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Who?
Guest:My mom.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:And she's sober.
Marc:Long time?
Guest:Long time.
Oh.
Guest:And never relapsed, always been like consistently sober.
Marc:But sober when you were a kid?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, so you didn't know her as a drinker?
Guest:No, I did, but I was in eighth grade.
Guest:She got into a DUI accident driving me to school or to ballet class.
Marc:Did anyone get hurt?
Guest:She hurt her ankle, but nobody got really hurt.
Marc:But she was drunk?
Guest:She was drunk.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And she was falling asleep at the wheel.
Guest:And I remember very vividly asking her if she... I remember thinking it was because she had too many kids.
Marc:Are you tired of having kids?
Guest:I literally was like, do you need me to drive?
Guest:I asked her if she needed me to drive because I just thought...
Guest:God, I'd never seen anybody blackout drunk.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was like, oh, she is really pushing it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And she's got to stop with all these kids.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They're exhausting her.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I was like, I mean, this is crazy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:She can't even take me to ballet.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so she got in that accident and got hauled off in a cop car that night and went to jail and got sober like right after that.
Marc:What happened to you?
Marc:Did they call your dad or-
Guest:No, I went home in a cop car in my leotard.
Guest:Fucking humiliating.
Marc:Never got to class, huh?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just in my fucking ballet slippers and my leotard and my dumb top bun.
Marc:That's where it happened.
Marc:That was the moment.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Climbing out of the squad car in your leotard.
Marc:That's where it all went bad for you.
Guest:I was like, God damn.
Guest:I just wanted to spin.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think I think that ultimately, though, it got really bad when when I went to college after my sister died.
Marc:And I. But what was the process of like, was there how did the family grieve this situation?
Marc:Did anyone step in?
Marc:Did you see counselors?
Marc:Did you do anything?
Marc:I mean, it's so fucking.
Marc:I mean, it's so awful.
Marc:It's so profoundly awful.
Marc:I mean, how how the twin turn out?
Guest:She went to she finished high school in rehab, but she also was she struggled as a kid, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And even before her sister passed away, like she was she was a lot like me in that she didn't she didn't fit in.
Guest:And so people thought something people kind of deemed her a problem.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:And I'm so close with her.
Guest:She's like my favorite person in my family.
Guest:She's the funniest person, hands down, without ever trying to be.
Marc:Your little sister.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She'll like come up to me and she'll throw a leg up on the... I remember one time she threw a leg up on the kitchen table while I'm eating and she asked me if a mole was problematic, but no underwear, just full twat.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm like in my cereal, just like, what the fuck is wrong with you?
Guest:And to this day, she like has no boundaries like that.
Guest:And she doesn't, she's not trying to freak you out.
Guest:She's not trying to, she just doesn't think about that shit.
Guest:She's earnestly asking you.
Guest:And like, I'm like, put some fucking underwear on.
Guest:I'm like, you're like a person who was raised in the woods.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I think about it and I'm like, oh, she kind of was because she was sent to the woods.
Guest:She was sent to so many like woodland programs to like get her shit together.
Guest:And I'm like, she is a wolf woman.
Marc:You know, how'd she end up?
Marc:Is she all right?
Marc:She's great.
Guest:She's she is.
Marc:I mean, what'd she do?
Guest:She's a musician and a photographer.
Guest:She's very talented.
Guest:Oh, that's great.
Guest:She lives in Chicago.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Her name's Jackie Baker.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And yeah, she's just my favorite person.
Guest:She's so earnest.
Guest:That's nice.
Guest:And she struggles, but she's always like...
Guest:And when she does, we have a little bit of a complicated relationship because she's, you know, I don't want to get too into her personal life.
Guest:But like, but she knows that I'm like always in her corner.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Like I will always.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that's good.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And but but what was the grieving situation?
Marc:I mean, like if you turn to the drink hard, I mean, like because grief is like tricky, man.
Marc:And I have to assume from the sound of your family that it got shut down pretty quickly.
Guest:exactly yeah it was like you can't put grief in the middle of a country club you know it doesn't belong there so you learn to shut it down to kind of like deal with it in whatever way you know how for me it was like running I just ran from it like literally running like chasing like excitement and fun and joy and just good times so that I wouldn't have to think about that
Marc:The aggressive good times.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just like, let's fucking party.
Guest:You know, I remember... And it was psychotic the way that I did.
Guest:I would, like, strap on some fucking, like, roller skates and, like, get on the subway and bar hop from, like, just... Oh, so you made a spectacle of yourself as well.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:No, I loved it.
Guest:I wanted to threaten my own life.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:And...
Guest:More broadly, I was just saying I don't care.
Marc:Let it all like burn it all down, you know, because I don't did you ever like well obviously no I mean, but Did you ever like?
Marc:Through therapy or other ways, you know, were you able to?
Marc:experience the grief
Marc:Um, like, did you ever eventually trauma stuff?
Guest:Yeah, eventually I did.
Guest:But that was like six years after I got clean.
Marc:No, right.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I have therapists that still think I have four sisters.
Marc:Like I just lie.
Guest:Yeah, I would just lie.
Guest:I would just go in and lie and just be like, I'm not, I would, I was always going to therapy for someone else because people were begging me to like go to therapy.
Marc:But as you get older, do you have a different relationship with it or you don't do it?
Guest:I love it now.
Marc:Oh, you do.
Guest:I love it.
Marc:So by the time you got to New York, you were well on your way through college to drinking.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But then, you know, what escalated it?
Guest:I think it was.
Marc:When you got to New York, what was that boyfriend like?
Guest:Um, he was a real caretaker.
Marc:Oh, so you got, that was the good one.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was like my nurse.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Guest:And, uh, he, he took, he took good care of me or tried to, even though I was like a nightmare.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, um,
Guest:What was the question?
Marc:What what what sort of escalate what you know what escalated it in New York?
Guest:I think in New York it was just the fact that I didn't have any like there was no real structure to my life.
Guest:And New York is such a fucking playground for your demons.
Guest:It's like that was in 2006 that I moved to New York.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And it was we lived in Greenpoint on the on India and McGinnis.
Guest:It was like right next to this trailer that's like still there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It just said ass or grass.
Guest:No one rides for free.
Guest:But it was written like somebody wrote that with a knife in the side of it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it wasn't like a bumper sticker.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Anyway, it was and it was just a very industrial part of Brooklyn.
Guest:There was no grass.
Guest:There was no.
Marc:So right.
Marc:And you're just untethered.
Marc:You don't have to go to college.
Marc:You know, you know, you're completely untethered.
Guest:And I had gone there because.
Guest:Well, I wasn't working.
Guest:I had gone there because I after college, I went to Europe with my sister.
Marc:Which one?
Guest:Hallie.
Guest:She's a nurse now.
Guest:Ironically.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she she planned this whole trip.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we went and my passport got stolen on the trip.
Guest:I was drunk.
Guest:I was blacked out.
Guest:Somebody took my passport, my purse, everything.
Marc:And I. That's when you call your grandfather.
Yeah.
Guest:Yes, that is the one time I have called.
Guest:I have gone in and gone.
Guest:Do you know who my grandfather is and not genuinely been asking like, who is he?
Guest:But this was they got me a passport in an hour.
Guest:And my sister was like, you know, you're like a fucking mess.
Guest:And I can't do this anymore.
Guest:And I'm just going.
Guest:She just left.
Marc:You in Europe.
Guest:And I went, cool, fine.
Guest:And then I just stayed in Europe and I don't know where I went.
Guest:Like to this day, I don't recall the places that I went to.
Guest:It was truly like a, I don't know how long I was there.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I was just blacked out in different countries.
Guest:And I would have to like check my passport from back then to know.
Marc:Didn't you end up in bad situations?
Guest:uh yeah yeah i mean very bad situations um situations like falling asleep on a military training ground um yeah next to like bullet like shells yeah um shotgun shells and not knowing how you got there not knowing how i got there for some reason having i remember burying my belongings at the bottom of that mountain yeah i
Guest:like my CDs and like nice Italian shoes that I'd bought.
Marc:You had a reason, I imagine.
Guest:I'm sure I had some sort of logic where I was like, I can't let people take these CDs if I fall asleep up there.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So I'm going to make sure that I keep my most valuable things in this hole.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like hitchhiking on the side of the road, cutting my hair with a knife.
Guest:Like my hair was cut with knives.
Marc:How did you not get raped and murdered?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I mean, honestly, I could have been.
Guest:I don't have the time and I don't have the energy to find out if that happened.
Guest:There's like sometimes...
Guest:You just don't have time to figure out if you were raped.
Guest:And most women kind of know what I'm talking about.
Guest:Like you go in for a massage and you're like, was that okay?
Guest:And you're like, I have shit to do.
Guest:Anyway, so I, my sister.
Guest:Is that part of it?
Guest:That doesn't seem part of it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:my sister like passed me she would like send me money at western unions and then at a certain point they were like we're gonna stop sending you money and i was like okay fine they go you gotta come back you gotta go to rehab i was like i'll book the ticket so just send me enough money to book the ticket and i'll come home yeah
Guest:But I was dating this guy off and on in New York.
Guest:And he lived in Greenpoint with his metal band.
Guest:And I said to myself, what I'll do is I'll leave most of my belongings here.
Guest:I'll take my stuff on the plane.
Guest:I'll book something that stops in JFK.
Guest:And I'll get off and I'll just go to his place.
Guest:And so that's what I did.
Guest:And then he promised my family that he would take care of me and make sure that I went to group therapy.
Marc:Group therapy?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:The fuck is that?
Marc:Nonsense.
Marc:Oh, I don't even know what that means.
Guest:I went to a group therapy for women with an eating disorder.
Guest:It wasn't even like a... I didn't even focus on the real problem.
Marc:How'd you find that?
Guest:I just looked it up.
Marc:Did you have an eating disorder?
Guest:Uh, yeah, kind of.
Guest:I was like, I have enough of one.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:It was like- I can keep drinking.
Guest:Yeah, I'm like, this is a half truth, but it's still- Right.
Guest:It's as honest as I'm willing to get.
Marc:It looks proactive.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I did that and I just like-
Guest:Sort of sat there and did these, like, group therapy sessions, but was drinking more than I'd ever drank, and it was really ramping up and escalating.
Guest:And all of the damage that I was causing around me was—it was quick, you know?
Marc:Oh, you couldn't avoid it?
Marc:Like what?
Guest:Just mostly, like—
Guest:I was a heartbreaking person to be around.
Guest:I was really cruel to people around me.
Marc:Yeah, you seem a little hard.
Guest:I would fight them.
Marc:I remember when we worked together, I'm like, she's really funny, but she seems hard.
Guest:Yeah, I think that it's something that people assume about me, but I...
Guest:i think i also carefully crafted that on some level and i'm trying to get a lot better about it because the truth is i'm like insanely sensitive you know so right so you you're preemptively mean yeah i'm like nobody's gonna hurt me um so it's that and uh and i i just really lashed out at people i was really angry really really angry
Marc:Were you able to track that, trace it?
Marc:What do you think it had to do with your sister and your family?
Guest:It was about my sister.
Guest:It was about my parents.
Guest:It was about the world, how everything can change so quickly without you being prepared for it or knowing anything.
Marc:You had no control.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then being, you know, going off to college and just being like, deal with that.
Guest:You know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I like had no, I had no way of dealing with what I'd gone through.
Guest:And no one was telling me like, you just went through a really, really traumatic thing.
Guest:You should be spending, you know, I'm sure like,
Guest:my mom tried to get me to go to therapy but she was also like dealing with a divorce and the death of her daughter and all of her and the daughters that were still under her roof and i was just and anything that she told me to do i would have been like fuck off yeah so i just dealt with it it was like putting a band-aid on a broken arm and just getting back out there yeah and that was like that was it so what got what landed you in rehab finally
Guest:um i never went to rehab actually you just went to what i do the thing i just i i drove everyone away to the point that there was no one else to blame but myself and i was alone and i remember looking around at like my life and being like there's no one here that i can point this to yeah except for me yeah and
Guest:And I started doing 12-step groups.
Guest:I started doing meetings and stuff, and that's how I got clean.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:You just did that on your own?
Guest:I did, yeah.
Marc:Wow, in New York.
Marc:That's good, man.
Marc:And then you've stayed straight with it all this time?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Are you still in?
Marc:Do you still go?
Guest:I still go, yeah, I do.
Guest:I mean, it's over Zoom now, pretty much.
Marc:You live in New York?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, when does it go back to, when do you get to go back?
Guest:I mean, people are still doing in-person meetings now.
Guest:Or they are, they just started to a couple months ago.
Guest:But I still just do the Zoom because I'm like, I had completely fallen off of them.
Guest:And then when the pandemic hit, I got back into it because I was like.
Marc:Wasn't it?
Guest:Well, I just was like, now is a good time.
Marc:You want to talk to somebody.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Now's a good time to like, I have the time to focus on inner health and I might as well do that.
Guest:And a lot of changes were happening.
Guest:I was falling in love.
Guest:I was getting engaged and I was like, I want to walk into this consciously and not be just doing something.
Marc:Another thing to avoid the thing.
Guest:Right.
Marc:So you got sober in 2007, eight?
Marc:2007, yeah.
Marc:And when do you start doing comedy?
Guest:I started doing comedy in 2013.
Guest:The first open mic I did was 2013.
Marc:So you're still kicking around as the actress was still the dream when you got sober?
Guest:No, at that point I had just like, I kind of gave up on acting.
Guest:I was just like, I don't really want to do this anymore.
Marc:Did you start acting out in other ways after you got rid of the booze?
Guest:Yeah, for sure.
Marc:Because when I got sober, I immediately got involved with somebody that turned into, it just turned into a terrible, terrible thing.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:No, relationships were my number one thing that I did.
Guest:I would get involved with people that didn't want to be involved with me.
Guest:And then I would, they either didn't want to be involved with me at all, or they were depending on me in the same way that I depended on the guy who was my nurse.
Marc:Right, the metal band guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, who's the one that you talk about in the special?
Marc:That sounded terrible.
Guest:That was bad.
Guest:Yeah, that was sober.
Marc:Yeah, did that sober?
Guest:Yes, I did that sober.
Guest:And I but I was still very, very sick in a lot of ways.
Guest:I thought this guy clearly is bad news.
Guest:I remember going to therapy and being like, I just he had relapsed.
Marc:He was he met him in the rooms.
Guest:No, I met him actually through acting.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:He was an actor.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And he had told me that he was sober.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then I learned a couple months later that he was not really sober.
Guest:He was like dry.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he was just abstaining for the moment and was eventually going to relapse.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he did.
Guest:And I didn't realize I had never seen alcoholism like that.
Guest:I had never seen it like that.
Marc:Like what?
Guest:Where you see somebody having seizures, you know, withdrawing.
Marc:That quickly?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He would drink like a quarter gallon a day?
Guest:He would go a week and then he would seize if he tried to stop.
Guest:I mean, it was like, and every single time he relaxed.
Marc:Was he drinking just like a gallon of hard liquor a day?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Like...
Marc:Like leaving Las Vegas drinking.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Like that?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I had never seen it.
Guest:And that was the first time I realized, oh, this is like a real disease.
Guest:I understood that concept, but I hadn't experienced it.
Marc:What was your place in that?
Marc:Why didn't you just get out?
Guest:thought in my mind at the time which is this is also I think a symptom of the disease of Alcoholism is there's denial all around you.
Guest:Yeah, there's people all around you that think that they can help or that they can and I was one of those people even having Suffered from alcoholism myself knowing how it worked.
Guest:I thought if I love him enough
Marc:Yeah, you got introduced to your codependency.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I thought if I just show him how much I love him and I devote my entire life to this guy, he's going to get sober and we're going to be fine.
Guest:And it was all about...
Guest:I think underneath it all was just like he was so close to dying every time he drank that I got to relive that experience of not being able to save my sister.
Guest:So every time he survived another relapse, I got to be I he would call me a hero.
Guest:His family would call me an angel.
Guest:And I was getting all of this like it's all very self-centered, even though it looks on the outside like selflessness.
Marc:Right.
Guest:It's very self-centered.
Marc:And also, like, that makes sense, this sort of, like, loss thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I got introduced to my codependency, like, you know, seven, eight years ago.
Marc:I mean, I was sober a long time, 12 years or whatever.
Marc:And I got into a thing with a woman who I just couldn't see the reality of, and I just thought I could help her.
Marc:But I'll tell you, when I stopped liking that, when I woke up, I woke the fuck up.
Guest:Same.
Guest:It happens like that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you're like, I am done.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was it was that it was that night that we we'd gotten in a fight and I had I was running away from him.
Guest:I tried to slam a door.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:To like close the door before he was chasing after me.
Guest:His hand got stuck in the door.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He came through, just whacked me and I fell to the floor and.
Guest:And I remember it was like New Year's Eve of 2012.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or 2011.
Guest:Yeah, it was 2011.
Guest:And I woke up like I just I remember him being like covering the door so that I couldn't leave.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That was the first thing that he did after he hit me was to hot was to get in front of the front door.
Guest:And so I immediately was like, oh, this is like he doesn't care at all about this.
Guest:any anything and i of course there were so many signs that that was obvious before but it was like that was the thing that made me see it violence yeah yeah and um i just decided and it wasn't the first time it had happened but it was the first time it had really hurt and i thought okay well what were you able to do just so you in previous times you're like well he was just drunk kind of thing
Guest:in previous times i would find a way to blame myself i would find a way to to go well you know i got in his face or i did this or i like oh man there's always something where i was like i wasn't i wasn't an angel you know yeah and which i wasn't but still it was like yeah you don't have to like yeah
Guest:But I didn't get it.
Guest:You know, I really didn't.
Marc:But what's sad is that, like, that is the script of all of them.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Of all domestic abuse.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:They find you.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Turn you out.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Without, you know, not even knowing.
Marc:It's just a dynamic that occurs.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then you live in it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Until you get really hurt or get out.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it was...
Guest:I think to me, I still to this day, I'm really grateful that I had that experience because it would have taken I don't know how much longer for me to fully heal.
Guest:Because all of that was so wrapped up in the trauma of my graduation, my high school graduation and all the events surrounding that, that I just...
Guest:I don't think I would have dealt with it.
Guest:You know, I had to deal with those things in order to deal with this because I had a therapist who was like, it's not about him.
Guest:This has nothing to do with him.
Guest:And all my focus was on him and the relationship and what was happening there.
Guest:And he was like, this isn't about him.
Guest:This is about you.
Guest:Like wanting to be a martyr or a hero.
Guest:And yeah.
Guest:And your guilt, your toxic levels of guilt.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:So so that so that became the key to doing that work.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And comedy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then comedy really just comedy just happened because I was like.
Guest:I don't have anything else I want to do right now.
Guest:And this just seems like a fun idea.
Guest:And then.
Marc:You started in New York?
Guest:I started in New York.
Marc:Where?
Guest:At a Metropolitan Room open mic.
Guest:It was like this like random little open mic on 23rd around there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they would just have these little, it was like six or seven people.
Guest:It was tiny.
Guest:It was a tiny open mic, lights on everyone.
Guest:You could see everybody's face.
Guest:You knew exactly how they felt about your jokes.
Guest:And I remember getting a laugh and thinking,
Guest:Huh, that was fun.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:And then just being like, I'm going to go back and do that again tomorrow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then being like, I'm going to do that again the next day.
Guest:And then kind of picking up on the whole narrative of the New York narrative of like, if you really want to do this, you should do it every night.
Guest:And so I thought, oh, then I'll just do that.
Guest:And it was never like, I'm going to create a life out of comedy.
Guest:I just...
Guest:really had a lot to talk about.
Guest:I just had a lot to say.
Guest:And I'd been through a lot and a lot of healing and a lot of pain all at the same time.
Guest:And I had no pride left.
Guest:And I thought, well, this is kind of perfect if you don't have any pride.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You can just go up there and, you know, like there is...
Marc:But there is something cathartic about forcing yourself to frame things comedically.
Marc:If you have the compulsion to put yourself in situations that compromise you, and also you have a slight shame addiction, it's perfect.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, it felt to me like really redemptive.
Marc:Yeah, because you can win in a moment.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I just thought every time I do this, it feels better.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And when it feels bad, I'm used to that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So who cares?
Marc:But it's also manageable because if it feels bad, you still have control over that with stand-up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's like Harry Shearer said, the reason people try to do comedy is so that you have control over why people laugh at you.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So even when it's going bad, as awful as it feels, the context is pretty limited.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:This is happening now.
Marc:I'm failing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And it's here.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I'll get through it.
Guest:And it's kind of this beautiful thing where you have to keep... I mean, I'm in a place today where I feel like it's just great.
Guest:But I got to tell you... Yeah, I mean, the whole, like, me not having any pride... Like, most of the pride that I have today is around comedy.
Guest:And it's like I gross myself out sometimes with the... What you say.
Guest:No, I mean, well, not really.
Guest:But I do gross other people out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But...
Guest:Yeah, there's times where I walk off stage because I'm a dark comic and I go, did I just take comedy from them?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Did I just take it out of the room?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What did I just do to those people?
Guest:The fuck did I just do?
Marc:What did I make them pay for?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And how masturbatory am I and how I fucking hate myself after a set that doesn't go well?
Guest:Because it's like you just went in and told them sad stories.
Yeah.
Guest:You dumb bitch.
Guest:I literally like just.
Marc:It's a fine line between sadness and funny.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I believe me.
Marc:I definitely like I definitely.
Marc:Yeah, you get it.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm one of those guys where.
Marc:Well, I remember years ago and I was doing comedy when I was starting out in Boston and some guy, I don't know, he was a journalist of some kind, literally came up to me after a set and just looked at me very earnestly said, why comedy?
Yeah.
Guest:That's the most hurtful thing you can say.
Marc:But he was right.
Marc:I couldn't answer it.
Marc:I don't know sometimes what I'm doing up there.
Marc:And now I'm working out a new hour and I don't know.
Marc:Some of it's heavy, man.
Marc:And I have become very sensitive to the quality of laughter.
Marc:Like I know what laughter that sad is.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I know what, you know, just relief laughter is.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What entertained laughter is.
Marc:But you do kind of go after that laughter that could be crying.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like that kind of like weird.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And like that's satisfying.
Marc:But I'm not sure it's a great experience for the audience.
Marc:But, you know.
Guest:Here's how I think of it.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I think there's so much...
Guest:I think it's very easy to be entertaining.
Guest:Not that it's easy to entertain.
Guest:The act of entertaining is not easy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But I think it's easy to exist as an entertainer.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Easier.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know how to do it, though.
Marc:I mean, I think maybe you're right, and it seems that way, but it's not like...
Marc:I've tried it and it's not for me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like I don't really I mean, I know how to be entertaining in a moment impulsively.
Marc:I can do voices and jump around and I've done it in bits and stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But it's not my first intention.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Like, let me take you away from everything.
Marc:I'm here to entertain.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's sort of like we've got to work through some stuff.
Yeah.
Guest:God, I'm glad you guys are here.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Maybe I don't have to drag people through my problems.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You know, I mean, I never felt like I got into comedy when I was 28.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I was like and I'd been through a lot already.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I just I already had shit to talk about.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I also was not interested in wasting any fucking time.
Guest:Like I was like, if if I'm getting serious about this and I'm slowly starting to.
Guest:When I make the decision to know, I mean, well, yeah, kind of.
Guest:But when I realized, oh, this might there, there might be a path here for me that isn't just like a way to escape my day to day.
Marc:And your husband's a comic?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you guys, what, were locked down together?
Marc:Is that how it worked?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I mean, we were dating.
Marc:You were boyfriend, you were dating, and then lockdown happened, and then it got, it added, like, you had a three-year thing in a year kind of thing?
Guest:Kind of, but we were, we're two sober addicts, so we, like, move quicker than lesbians.
Guest:Right, sure.
Guest:We're just like, let's move in together, let's get married.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He had been sober about six years, I'd been sober about 12, and
Guest:And so I am better than him.
Guest:And winning.
Guest:And we just I also just knew when I met him, I was like, this guy is a guy that I can whatever is going to come up and work through it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You had the language.
Guest:He didn't seem perfect at all.
Guest:He wasn't my type.
Guest:There was no... I didn't even want to like him, to be honest.
Marc:That sounds like a relationship made in heaven.
Marc:Sounds perfect.
Guest:And I was like, I don't think this is it for me.
Guest:I don't want to like this guy.
Guest:He's goofy.
Guest:And then we...
Guest:Every time we hung out, I was like, I want to be around him.
Guest:I feel good around him.
Guest:I feel so happy and so silly.
Guest:And he brings out this goofy side of me, but I can still be as sinister as I truly feel sometimes.
Guest:And yeah, I just never felt that kind of freedom to be myself.
Guest:That's really what it came down to.
Marc:Yeah, that's great.
Marc:So this special is the first special?
Guest:This is the first special, yeah.
Marc:Whiskey Fists.
Guest:Whiskey Fists.
Marc:So are you, like, do you have to retire this hour now, or are you touring on it?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I never know what to do.
Marc:I always go with these sort of like, well, it's on TV, it's over.
Guest:Listen, I...
Guest:I struggle with that because I'm like half the stuff, the demand for content now, which is what they call jokes.
Guest:They call content.
Marc:Everything's content.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Everybody's on to you.
Marc:Right.
Guest:They all know so much about.
Marc:You think they do, but sometimes.
Guest:They act like they do.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And they, I mean, I have people like,
Guest:DM me when I'm mentioned on another podcast.
Guest:And I'm like, this is gross.
Guest:Like, of course, I want to hear it.
Guest:But yeah, but like, it's this weird thing where they're so inside the world.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Of an audience members now go like, good set.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Where'd you learn the language?
Guest:I'm like, go fuck yourself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's this kind of like, um,
Guest:You know, there's a demand to do an hour every year or whatever.
Guest:And it's like, that's a demand for comics that are more skilled than I am.
Guest:Like, I have to keep remembering, like, I've been doing this for 10 years, almost.
Marc:This is the one.
Marc:This one took you 10 years.
Marc:Yeah, I get it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, years, like, it's not quite right.
Marc:I mean, you know, you build at your own pace.
Marc:But even for me.
Marc:Well, I don't know.
Marc:I'm jamming through this one because I was out for a year.
Guest:There's a lot.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Kind of.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I never know where it comes from.
Marc:And I don't think it's a matter of where you are as a comic.
Marc:It's just it's finding the freedom to talk.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know, it's just a matter of, you know, I know people say every year, but it seems like you've got it for real.
Marc:The comedy bug.
Marc:So you'll you'll do it.
Guest:yeah no i mean it's gonna happen yeah um you don't know how or where or when i don't yeah i don't really know but you will need to do new material because you just hate the shit you're doing right yeah no i mean i right now even as i'm on stage like and during the pandemic even i would be like touring the hour and i would be in the middle of a fucking horror show of a like pandemic audience yeah outdoors
Guest:It was all like Midwestern places, you know, people that were like, oh, I've never heard of COVID.
Guest:I don't know what that is.
Guest:And I would be having a full existential.
Guest:Did you get it?
Guest:Yeah, I did get it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I got it after the special.
Guest:I got it after my vaccines.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How long did that last?
Guest:I got a breakthrough case.
Marc:Like a day?
Marc:Now you're supposed to tell me, like, I just found out yesterday.
Guest:No, like, yeah.
Guest:Just earlier today.
Guest:No, like, it lasted like a day.
Guest:And I just thought that it was the, I thought it was the side effects from the, I was like, these people are fucking lying about these side effects.
Guest:These are killer.
Guest:These are fucking bad.
Guest:And then I found out I had COVID.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:And I was like, oh, I had COVID in my system with no symptoms.
Guest:And then I got the vaccine and boom, everything sort of ramped up and then died off.
Guest:And I was with my husband.
Guest:We were doing comics, Mohegan Sun.
Guest:I know that place.
Guest:I looked at him and I told him when we got back that I had COVID.
Guest:And he goes, that's weird.
Guest:We like made out and like there's no.
Marc:He was vaxxed too?
Guest:He was vaxxed too and he never got it.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Guest:So that's nice.
Marc:Well, it's good.
Marc:You didn't get it.
Marc:And it's good that the vaccine works.
Marc:And sorry for your luck.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Thank you so much.
Marc:Sorry for your luck is great.
Marc:So.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So when do you go back to New York?
Guest:I go back on the 18th.
Guest:of this month and tomorrow I'm going to the tomorrow's the 15th so that's my wedding anniversary and I will be spending it opening for Michael Che at his special taping.
Marc:Where's that?
Guest:That's at the Fox Theater.
Guest:In San Francisco?
Marc:No, Oakland.
Marc:Oakland, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I've played that place.
Marc:That'll be fun.
Guest:You can't call Oakland San Francisco.
Marc:No, you can't.
Marc:Flip out.
Marc:Oh, that'll be good.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I like that guy.
Marc:I've never interviewed him.
Marc:He's never out here.
Guest:He's so fucking... He's literally one of my favorite people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he would hate to hear that.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He's... He kind of reminds me of Norm a little bit.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I could see that.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:He's like that...
Guest:whatever your expectations of him are.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He's not going to like that you have those.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And he's going to surprise you anyway.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, it was good talking to you.
Guest:Great talking to you too.
Guest:Thanks for doing it.
Guest:Thanks for having me.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:Satan's granddaughter, Rosebud Baker.
Marc:Comedy Central stand-up special, Whiskey Fists, can be seen in full on Comedy Central's YouTube channel.
Marc:The podcasts that she hosts, Devil's Advocate and Find Your Beach.
Marc:Oh my God, I'm sore.
Marc:Let me try to wrap my fingers around my new guitar.
Marc:My shoulders hurt.
Marc:I need a nap.
Marc:Fuck, man.
Marc:I got this soreness on my side.
Marc:58.
Marc:It's happening, people.
Marc:It's happening.
Marc:Just remember, we all get sloppy in the end.
Guest:guitar solo
Yeah.
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey and La Fonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.