Episode 1265 - B.J. Novak
Marc:Lock the gates!
Marc:Alright, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck, buddies?
Marc:What the fuck, Nicks?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast.
Marc:Welcome to it.
Marc:Today is September 27th.
Marc:That is the day we're dropping this episode.
Marc:September 27th is also the birth date of me.
Marc:58 years ago today, I was born.
Marc:58 years ago...
Marc:I was born.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I've lived so many lives and I know that I'm getting older, but I don't always see it.
Marc:I don't.
Marc:I do feel it.
Marc:I know some people are like, I don't feel older.
Marc:I do feel older.
Marc:I'm highly attentive to to my body, to my brain.
Marc:I believe I'm aging.
Marc:OK, I think one of the reasons is because I have no children.
Marc:I don't have any horses in this race.
Marc:Is that how it goes?
Marc:I have no children, so that means I do not really see myself aging in the same way some people do.
Marc:As their children get older, they can see themselves dying.
Marc:I don't have that.
Marc:That's cynical.
Marc:And I also see their kids growing, and it's a beautiful thing, I imagine.
Marc:But I don't get it.
Marc:When I look in the mirror, I don't see myself as aging.
Marc:I see I'm older.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:I know I look different than I used to, but I don't really know until I look at pictures that I'm 58 years old.
Marc:Because when I look at pictures, I'm like, look at that old head.
Marc:Look at that.
Marc:Look at that old head.
Marc:It doesn't matter what I wear.
Marc:It doesn't matter which boots, which hipster pants, which Western shirts.
Marc:Right on top of it, there's an old head sitting there.
Marc:Nice shirt, old head.
Marc:Yeah, that's what's happening.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I see it.
Marc:But I'm grateful to be alive.
Marc:I'm grateful to process, I guess.
Marc:I know I've been a bit dark lately, perhaps a bit dry, as they say in the recovery racket.
Marc:But I'm plugging along.
Marc:You know, we had a good time in Portland and Seattle.
Marc:The set's coming along.
Marc:But we can talk about that in a second.
Marc:On the show today, I talked to BJ Novak.
Marc:And those of you who know the history of me and the history of this show know that...
Marc:BJ and I, it's really only me.
Marc:It's a one-sided issue that I've had with that guy over the years.
Marc:And it's really just basic, petty resentment.
Marc:That's all it ever was, really.
Marc:Just old comic.
Marc:I'm not bitter, but I do get jealous and I do get resentful.
Marc:But you know BJ, if you don't know anything about this thing that I'm talking about.
Marc:You know him from The Office and movies like In Glorious Bastards and his children's books are popular.
Marc:He also has a new anthology show called The Premise.
Marc:But my trip with him was years ago when he arrived on the scene.
Marc:He was a contemporary of my ex-wife Mishnas, who was also a comic.
Marc:And I see him around.
Marc:He's younger than me.
Marc:But he was just one of those guys.
Marc:It was it was it was never.
Marc:He was never going to struggle in the way that some of us struggle.
Marc:He was always going to be employed.
Marc:He was always going to be given opportunities.
Marc:And it's a mixture of things, I guess.
Marc:But in the immediate sense, back then, certainly, he had tried his hand at stand-up.
Marc:He wrote some good jokes.
Marc:And then he could do whatever he wanted.
Marc:He became a writer and an actor and did movies and now writes movies.
Marc:Now he's got a show.
Marc:He came out of Harvard, so that was another thing to hang on.
Marc:And there was a lot of personal projections that I was making on to him, all of them bad.
Marc:And on my show, Marin, every season I somehow wedged in a B.J.
Marc:Novak reference, just kind of busting balls, just kind of taking a taking a shot.
Marc:But it's there almost.
Marc:I think it's on every season.
Marc:I think every season of the show, I went out of my way to bust B.J.
Marc:Novak's balls.
Marc:And he and I'll bring this up to him.
Marc:He he the last time I saw him before this interview, I think he for some reason he was on the patio of the comedy store with somebody.
Marc:I don't know why he was.
Marc:I don't think he does stand up anymore.
Marc:I'll ask him.
Marc:But he just said to me, I said, how are you doing?
Marc:He goes, you know, we're cosmically connected.
Marc:And I think I said, yes.
Marc:Yes, I did that.
Marc:I did that.
Marc:So it was only it's one sided, though.
Marc:But, you know, it's my side.
Marc:And God knows that whatever intensity I bring to the world, I've alienated a lot of people.
Marc:And I feel like I'm doing it again, actually, to be honest with you.
Marc:Dean and I went to Seattle and Portland.
Marc:We did a show at the Neptune.
Marc:Nice sold out shows.
Marc:All three I've chosen to do.
Marc:I did a smaller venue in Seattle than the last time Neptune.
Marc:I believe the Neptune theater was where I did my first theater show ever.
Marc:The last time I was in Seattle, I did the more.
Marc:I remember Lynn came and that's a huge place.
Marc:And I'm just sort of like, I don't need it.
Marc:From what I understand, ticket sales are okay for most people, but it's still a little crimped by the fact that the pandemic is not over.
Marc:But a lot of people that came out to see us, to see me, it was their first time out in like 19, 18, 19 months.
Marc:Very excited, a very interesting energy, kind of a frenetic vibe.
Marc:But we took some time up there.
Marc:We went up there a day early because I like Seattle.
Marc:I like the climate.
Marc:And Dean and I usually tried to do a bunch of stuff.
Marc:Get some good food.
Marc:I was looking for a guitar.
Marc:There was a lot of drama around a guitar shop that went down on Instagram because I was like, look, I was treated like shit at a guitar shop.
Marc:Look, I'm just a guy going in.
Marc:We were excited, man.
Marc:And I don't want to bring it up.
Marc:I don't want to bring up the name again.
Marc:You know, it's done.
Marc:You know, it caught it.
Marc:It caused such a shit storm.
Marc:You know, mostly, you know, a pile on on the guitar shop.
Marc:But I did realize something from that is that any sort of grievance, any sort of need for petty justice.
Marc:Now, I'm not talking big justice.
Marc:I'm not talking broad spectrum righteousness.
Marc:Just any public acknowledgement of an injustice, a minor one in this case.
Marc:just being treated like a fucking douchebag, and then posting it, it just attracts hundreds and hundreds of grievance junkies that everybody wants an outlet to sort of air their grievance or to say, fuck yeah, fuck you, fuck that.
Marc:And it struck me after I went through this that that is what's going on culturally, politically, in our discourse, is that in this time of...
Marc:Environmental catastrophe and political chaos and impending fascism and a feeling of powerlessness on behalf of everybody in this time of plague that everybody is looking for an outlet for their anger, for their their feelings of powerlessness, for their needs, their need to be vindicated or their need for for relief.
Marc:by having their grievance addressed.
Marc:And this is the two sides of it.
Marc:There are two sides of it.
Marc:It's a battle of petty grievances or made up bullshit.
Marc:But this is the deal.
Marc:The deal is like somehow or another, the idea of surrendering to the reality that we're all fucked, that the only grievance we should all have is on some level we're fucked and that there are people in our lives and in our cities that we don't know who are much more fucked than us.
Marc:But on some level, we're all kind of responsible for the fucking.
Marc:And and that's it.
Marc:We all feel powerless in the face of things out of our control.
Marc:So how do we kind of meet our grievances in the middle?
Marc:Like there's I don't think there's any way.
Marc:to like what they used to call cross the aisle.
Marc:But it's not this isn't about politics anymore.
Marc:There's no reaching out.
Marc:People are just pissed off, feel powerlessness.
Marc:And at the edge of it, you know, there is a crackling.
Marc:There's an undoing.
Marc:There is an impending sense of chaos and doom on a lot of levels, cultural level, social level, environmental level and a disease level.
Marc:So how do we go on thinking everything's going to be okay, or at least even honoring the patterns that we've grown used to in our lives?
Marc:Now, I don't know if there's a way to get us all on the same grievance.
Marc:It's really only a few, and we all have them.
Marc:And if we were able to come together and understand the righteous grievances, then amazing things could happen, maybe, maybe.
Marc:At least a slight corrective.
Marc:But if everybody's like, no, fuck you.
Marc:No, fuck you.
Marc:Fuck this.
Marc:Yeah, you show them.
Marc:You show them.
Marc:You're fucking wrong.
Marc:You're fucking wrong.
Marc:You don't know what the truth is.
Marc:You don't know what the truth is.
Marc:Where are you getting your information?
Marc:Where are you getting your information?
Marc:It's all fucking distraction.
Marc:We're all just being puppeted by people that want us to fucking complain and argue as they fucking rape the world and turn out our goddamn desires to keep profits going.
Marc:That sounded a little heavy handed.
Marc:But but you but if you notice, you know, any opportunity to air grievances aggressively.
Marc:So much more satisfying to people.
Marc:Anger.
Marc:Landing is more satisfying to people than acknowledging powerlessness, surrendering to the reality that we have and trying to figure out how to come together and fix it.
Marc:That said, I did go to another guitar store and bought a beautiful Stratocaster, which is what I was looking for.
Marc:I didn't break the bank.
Marc:I got a relic.
Marc:I got a nice one.
Marc:I'd say that the purchase had it was about 20 percent spite against the first guitar shop.
Marc:The place I did get the guitar is Thunder Road Guitars in Seattle who were very nice to me.
Marc:And I was, look, I don't need another guitar.
Marc:I'm fortunate to be able to get one.
Marc:I'm not a great guitar player.
Marc:I'm not a professional guitar player, but it is my hobby.
Marc:And it really is.
Marc:It's really the only hobby I have.
Marc:And now my life is complete and everything is good.
Marc:That's my birthday present to me.
Marc:Thank you, Mark.
Marc:BJ Novak and I try to bridge the gap.
Marc:The premise, his new show, is streaming now on FX on Hulu with new episodes every Thursday.
Marc:And this is us, well, me, trying to make things right.
Marc:So it's like a 50s house, pipe burst.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't understand.
Marc:You think that plumbing is simple.
Marc:It's not simple.
Guest:I never thought it was simple.
Guest:Never?
Guest:No.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:It looks complex to me.
Guest:I have no aptitude for understanding.
Guest:That?
Guest:No, I don't.
Guest:You do.
Guest:I can tell.
Wow.
Guest:Why do you think that?
Guest:I think you have a sense of mechanics just looking around the room.
Guest:Guitars, anyone who likes guitars likes gear.
Guest:They like how things work.
Marc:But I get a lot of the guitars for free.
Marc:I'm not a gear nerd.
Marc:No, look at you.
Marc:I'm not flexing.
Marc:It sounds a little flexy, but you deserve it.
Marc:what i'm doing is i'm trying to prove to you that i'm not a gearhead i don't know i don't know half about i don't know much about any of this okay but i can i can work a tool you're telling me you can't do a tool i can do like a wrench right right so you can put together an ikea thing right i don't even like props as an actor i'm like i can't hold this pen well that's terrible eating pens terrible because then you're worried about you're worried about continuity it's all of a sudden your issue
Guest:I worked with James Spader once, and he is from an acting school where it's all about the props.
Guest:He would walk through scenes like, all right, so I'll put the pen down here, and then I'll pick up the cup of coffee here, and then I'll finally touch the doorknob and out.
Guest:That's how he plans a scene.
Marc:I think it's a school, yeah.
Marc:I don't know if it's a school.
Marc:I think it's how guys who've been doing it a long time keep it interesting.
Marc:Because I worked with Eric Stoltz on my show, and he really wanted to eat.
Marc:And it was a thing.
Marc:He wanted to eat the salad.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like if you put food in front of me in a scene, I'm going to do everything I can not to be eating.
Marc:I'll hold a fork.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'll act like I just swallowed something.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:But the chewing and eating, don't want to do it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Let me talk and look around.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And maybe put a fork down.
Marc:I'll put the fork down.
Guest:Just finished.
Guest:What am I doing here?
Guest:What do you mean?
Guest:Why'd you invite me?
Guest:Because you got a show out.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But like, Mark, come on.
Guest:We know how you feel about me.
Guest:Well, that's the old mark.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Is it the old mark?
Guest:Kinda, yeah, for the most part.
Guest:I'm a fan.
Guest:I was just listening to your interview.
Guest:You're a fan?
Guest:No, you know, sure.
Guest:I mean, I'm not gonna not listen.
Guest:But you were just saying like two episodes ago, like your first impression, you never shake a first impression of somebody.
Guest:I've heard you break open, of course.
Guest:I believe what you're saying, but I also believe, come on.
Marc:But shaking a first impression and that first impression being reasonable or correct are two different things.
Marc:If I can't shake something yet, I know I'm wrong.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I can live with that and I can adjust.
Guest:You can live with it, but in my experience, I have a first instinct and then I mentally can get way out of that, but I always revert to my first instinct.
Guest:So I think you- Maybe I'm just trying to figure it out today.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, that's why I'm here.
Guest:No.
Guest:To figure something out.
Guest:No, absolutely not.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:You're like, no, I know how I feel.
Marc:Uh, the last time I saw you was on the porch of the comedy store.
Marc:I don't know what you were doing there, but you were meeting someone there.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Um, and you came up to me or I came up to you and I said, Hey, and you looked at me and said, you know, we're now cosmically connected.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:I do feel that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because of me, my behavior.
Marc:And I said, yes, I did that.
Marc:I did that.
Marc:And you said, okay, I don't remember what you said.
Marc:Well, I'm in the Marinverse, you know what I mean?
Marc:So I'm a character in the Marc Maron world.
Marc:Your name comes up in every season in a derogatory way.
Guest:You didn't watch the show though, did you?
Guest:I did not watch the show.
Guest:I was told about the show and it did not make me want to watch the show.
Guest:But it was, I thought it was good-hearted ribbing.
Marc:It didn't sound vicious, no.
Marc:No, nasty.
Marc:I think that most of what was going on in terms of my opinion of you early on, because I talked about it with my producer, because you did do a live WTF.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:I don't think there was a problem.
Marc:I think we kind of got through some of the stuff.
Marc:I mean, not enough.
Marc:Here I am.
Marc:It was 12 minutes.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay, so what bothered me initially about you?
Guest:Sure, yes.
Guest:I mean, no point coming here without getting... At this?
Guest:Yeah, getting real.
Guest:That's the whole fun.
Marc:Yeah, well, I can be real.
Marc:It's so hot, though.
Marc:Isn't it hot?
Marc:Or am I just nervous?
Marc:Am I nervous?
Marc:You're making me nervous, Novak?
Marc:I mean, I should be the nervous one.
Marc:You're not nervous.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, this is... I know this angle.
Marc:You're just going to turn it on me.
Marc:What?
Guest:No.
Guest:I've been thinking about this for a long time, but I'm not here to... Well, why don't you tell me, like, how is it...
Marc:How has it made you feel?
Marc:I mean, is it something that you think about?
Marc:Like, what's Marc Maron's problem with me?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, a little bit.
Guest:But I also think, you know, you can't help but be self-conscious.
Guest:And I think, yeah, you go through, I went through phases.
Guest:And then I was happy, like, you know what?
Guest:You put yourself out there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's the fun of it.
Guest:Some people just don't like people.
Guest:Some people like other people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Sometimes there's a reason.
Guest:Sometimes there's no reason.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I feel that way about all kinds of people.
Marc:We do?
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:So you have problems with people for no reason that you talk about it.
Marc:And then I change my mind, yeah.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you did enough homework on listening to my show to know that at some point I said first impressions never go away.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Recently.
Marc:Recently.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do you listen to the podcast?
Marc:I listen a lot.
Marc:Not always.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I think the original problem was just, you know, basic jealousy, resentment, you know, probably like because I think that on some level I've kind of had to put it into some perspective after watching five episodes of The Premise.
Marc:Five.
Marc:I watched all the ones that were available.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I bought a copy of your dad's book, the Jewish humor book, the edited Jewish humor book.
Marc:The big book of Jewish humor.
Marc:The big book of Jewish humor.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I found it.
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:Maybe someone sent it to me, but that was your dad.
Marc:You grew up with that book.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That was an important book.
Marc:Very important book.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In your family.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:yeah yeah and in all jewish families it's almost it's like the classic bar mitzvah gift yeah because it makes being jewish kind of fun yeah you know it's better than like the torah and then like i started watching the show and in retrospect i got a copy of the book right here i brought it out just because i thought i wasn't going to break you know bring it up in some sort of like look at this your dad but it is your dad and then i watched uh did you write the episode uh the butt plug episode yes like that that's like a basically a jewish joke
Marc:Yeah, I guess so.
Marc:Structurally.
Marc:Yeah, it's very structured.
Marc:You could tell that story with that tag in like five minutes as a joke.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then the game of this was how do you make it feel epic, right?
Guest:Sort of like the aristocrats of a one-liner.
Guest:You did think of that when you were doing it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I thought of sort of how would you add as much possible depth to something that simple?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So was the because like the entire and I'll get back to my original opinion of you, but like because I did contextualize you in light of my experience with you before my judgment of you then and then, you know, your output since.
Marc:So now, I think after watching the premise and familiarizing myself with your children's book work and your short fiction and your brief period in stand-up, some of your acting, some of your directing stuff.
Marc:I mean, I thought about you.
Marc:And I thought, well, how am I going to reckon with this guy in terms of my feelings about him?
Marc:What are they based on?
Marc:Well, we are.
Marc:But what I want to know about the premise...
Marc:The premise of the premise was to deal with topical issues that have some juice to them culturally in a way, a fictionalized sort of dramedy-ish kind of form.
Guest:Take a story, fly into it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And sort of what Black Mirror does for tech.
Guest:It feels Black Mirror, but not menacing.
Guest:But this is more like, yeah, this is the comedy drama of real life.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I can feel the Black Mirror influence, but the person who made, I don't know who.
Marc:Charlie Brooker.
Marc:Charlie Brooker?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Does he talk in front of each episode?
Guest:No, but he does another show where he does talk.
Guest:About that?
Guest:No, he's also a host.
Guest:I don't know why he doesn't host.
Guest:I mean, I think that show makes.
Marc:The idea of hosting and having your face on the billboard, what was that?
Whew.
Marc:The billboard was not my call.
Guest:But it's like Rod Sterling.
Guest:Yeah, well, I did like, I liked the idea.
Guest:It sounds like you don't.
Guest:I liked the idea of posting because I thought, well, let's, I like when Rod Sterling came on.
Guest:I like when Hitchcock came on.
Guest:I like the idea that there is someone showing you something.
Guest:I didn't see any of those.
Marc:Oh, you didn't see?
Marc:Because I saw the screeners.
Marc:Got it.
Guest:I was going to watch- They're very, very brief.
Marc:I was going to watch- But it just gives a little flavor character of- The first one is on now.
Guest:Yeah, the first two are on, yeah.
Guest:Oh, they are?
Marc:Yeah, and by the time this airs three, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I could have watched the talking.
Guest:I could go back to it.
Guest:I don't think you'll like it.
Guest:Why wouldn't I like it?
Guest:Well, I mean, maybe I'm overthinking our relationship.
Guest:Is it funny?
Guest:It's a little funny.
Guest:I mean, it's like 10 seconds.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's just like, hey guys, here it is.
Guest:And I try to be a little funny or tease it a bit.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But it's really just to give some character.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:Well, I mean, how many did you write?
Guest:You wrote all of them?
Guest:I wrote or co-wrote all of them, yeah.
Marc:Because I thought you got some real good acting out of people somehow.
Marc:Yeah, thanks.
Marc:I mean, Bernthal, that's probably as good as I've seen him.
Marc:He's amazing.
Marc:But I also thought the guy that played in the butt plug guy, that guy was great.
Marc:Yeah, he's amazing.
Marc:Eric Lang.
Marc:I don't know who, I think I've seen him around.
Guest:He was in Escape from Dannemora, where he was amazing.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then Daniel Dae Kim, of course, is very...
Marc:Yeah, he's great.
Marc:Yeah, he's great.
Marc:So you've got good actors.
Marc:Great actors, yeah.
Marc:And the guy who played Justin Bieber, I forget his name.
Marc:Lucas Hedges.
Marc:He's great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, that was good.
Marc:And the girl was in Lin's movies and Booksmart.
Marc:Caitlin Dever, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, she's good.
Marc:So a lot of good acting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And the first episode about the white, the sort of liberal fraud-ish, that's the first one that's on.
Guest:Social justice sex tape.
Marc:Social justice sex tape.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you're thinking about this.
Marc:So how does the writing process start for you?
Marc:You're like, well, this is a hot topic.
Marc:I know people like this guy.
Marc:I might be kind of like this guy.
Marc:How do we sort of unpack the bullshit of that?
Guest:It goes the other direction for me.
Guest:I think what is funny...
Guest:And really, yeah, I think what is funny and then the only ideas that survive are the ones, oh, you could actually go a little deeper there.
Guest:So what's funny to me is what if you saw, you know, a police brutality racial incident on the in the deep background of your sex tape?
Guest:That was the original idea that you like you were one day you're like, OK.
Guest:Well, the first idea was, what if, the first idea was, what if a guy had an affair, filmed it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then saw a ghost in it, like a supernatural ghost with a prophecy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But couldn't show it to anybody.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because, like, he wasn't supposed to film it.
Guest:He was cheating.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, basically, what the hell does he do with this prophecy?
Guest:And then it, you know, I was just talking about it with Dan Mintz, actually, who helped out on my show.
Marc:Did he?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:You guys are still buddies?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, really good friends.
Marc:Did you go to school together?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:At Harvard.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So anyway, he was the one who said, well, what if it's, you know, it was during all of that.
Guest:And then that, you know, that thought, oh, my God, that's so rich.
Guest:All these characters who were the lawyers, who's the defendant, who's the guy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then it became depth.
Guest:But, you know, I you remember me from the early days.
Guest:I'm a one liner guy.
Guest:So it's basically what are the one liners that could turn into that had depth?
Guest:And those are the ones that became episodes.
Marc:I guess you're a one-liner guy, but it seems like there's almost something... I was, I was.
Marc:As a comic, yeah.
Marc:But not generally as a writer.
Marc:Obviously, you've moved on from there.
Marc:But there are intellectual conceits here, right?
Marc:And a lot of that stuff, there's an exercise in these episodes that...
Marc:I think the cross-examination, the second cross-examination of the white liberal guy, to deconstruct that personality, that was sort of an intellectual exercise.
Marc:And then there was when she goes for the valedictorian in that one, where she kind of lays out that thing for Ed Asner in the virtual reality, that is definitely, that's almost a term paper.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I like that kind of thing.
Guest:No, no, I do.
Guest:I'm just trying to get- No, no, but I'm saying like some people don't.
Guest:I really do.
Guest:I like Oscar Wilde.
Guest:I like people that have things that get quoted that can be pulled out as pieces that can stand alone, that are jagged, that, you know, Team America, that famous scene with dicks and pussies and assholes.
Guest:To me, that's the legacy of Team America.
Guest:It's not that Team America is a perfectly structured movie.
Guest:It went for philosophical swings.
Guest:And I think for a half hour show, that's kind of why I wanted to do these self-standing stories.
Guest:Because for me, it's sort of like, not what's the meme of it, but what's the memorable part?
Guest:Well, also, like, even in the corporate kind of presentation of that guy.
Marc:The butt plug.
Marc:The butt plug.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That, you know, that was sort of satirizing that type of presentation to the point where, you know, it becomes convincing that you had to.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, that.
Marc:Think of a context through which initially, whatever his analysis was, despite the fact that they were uncomfortable with the butt plug initially, they could apply it to other corporate products.
Marc:And by the end of it, they're like, well, maybe a butt plug is okay.
Guest:What's a butt plug that could change the world?
Guest:And then I have to go out and write a presentation that convinces people like, yeah, that could be the iPhone.
Guest:And you wrote that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:All of that.
Guest:So what were you basing that on?
Guest:Well, that, not to give away the episode, although certainly you could maybe see it coming, but that's the whole tension of the episode.
Guest:No, I get it.
Guest:But that presentation.
Guest:Oh, the presentation?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Did you do research or did you watch other presentations?
Guest:I did research to the extent of, okay, what are the numbers?
Guest:How could you justify this?
Guest:How could it save lives?
Marc:Those are real numbers?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, those are real numbers.
Guest:So did you have to sit there with somebody else?
Guest:How many lives could you save if it had a colonoscopy camera in the butt plug, and if you could do this and that?
Guest:But were you pitching that around with people, or that was just a solo journey?
Guest:That was solo, yeah.
Guest:I had a little help from a couple writers, but that was basically me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No one else is going to write butt plug like that, if I may.
Marc:Well, that's sort of one of those ones where it's very much like Black Mirror in structure.
Guest:Well, yes and no.
Guest:Yes, in structure, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, just like the title.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, and then, you know, where are we going?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And how seriously can you take something?
Marc:And it's about and sort of the moral is the bullying business.
Marc:Or the moral question, because both of these men can't escape it.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But it's got a double punch.
Marc:Yes, it sort of does.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like and the second punch sort of like it diminishes a little bit.
Guest:The first punch.
Guest:Yes, correct.
Guest:Both of them have these psychoses due to their trauma in a sense.
Guest:One of them does.
Marc:So after watching this and seeing these parts in the shows where you say they're memorable and they're philosophical.
Marc:Well, they are.
Marc:But there are also things that your brain works on.
Marc:So like in looking at the arc of who you are and what my reaction to you initially was, was just that like, you know, this guy's a disciplined motherfucker who is, you know, going to who has a an understanding of whatever his talent is.
Marc:He knows its limitations to some degree and he knows how to apply it to whatever it is that he wants to accomplish and he will achieve those things.
Marc:And to me, you know, that is enviable and also makes me wonder, like, well, I mean, I knew you as a comic, you know, briefly.
Marc:You know, I think you at the time knew enough, not unlike many guys I started out with, that you didn't want to be a comic for life because it was not something you were going to be able to do and make the big money.
Guest:Uh, I did at the time, whatever I do, I commit to.
Guest:I mean, in retro, I don't think anyone thought I was going to be it forever.
Guest:And I, I see what you see, look back.
Guest:But when I was in it, I was like, I gotta, I gotta be the best ever.
Guest:I gotta, I gotta.
Guest:But you were already writing television.
Guest:I was between, I was between that when I started.
Guest:So, oh, so you gotta be the best ever.
Guest:Whatever I do, I, I start like that and then.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you grin on your face.
Guest:They're like, I don't know if I saw that in you, but you could be fine.
Marc:No, but I mean, I get it.
Marc:But I, but I'm trying, I'm just comparing you to me.
Marc:Cause that's all I can do.
Marc:Cause I'm like relatively narcissistic.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, and, and I, but I've gained some empathy over time.
Marc:If I've gained anything, it's, it's a broadening of my empathy.
Guest:What were you going to ask me?
Guest:Did you, and I think I know the answer.
Guest:I think you vacillate knowing you between in your, in your life.
Guest:I'm, I'm the greatest and I'm the worst.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Well, no, I don't know that I ever think, like, I'm competitive.
Marc:And I knew I wanted to be a great comic.
Marc:I don't know that I would ever believe I'm the greatest.
Marc:Oh, I never wanted to be the greatest.
Marc:I mean, like, I'm going to be great.
Marc:Yeah, I do believe I've done good work and I'm somewhat underappreciated.
Marc:So that might be a problem between you and I, is that you do, at that time, okay work.
Guest:And overappreciate.
Overappreciate.
Guest:But I mean, I don't know why that is.
Guest:Do you?
Guest:I think my work was good and on the path to very good.
Guest:I think it was just more easily sellable.
Guest:But what do you think got... Yeah.
Guest:I mean, as a writer, you could say, okay, this guy writes tight jokes.
Guest:Right.
Guest:As a persona, it's like, okay, you could plug him into whatever.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I guess my assumption, not unlike any other bitter old man who does comedy, because we talked about that time...
Marc:where I went on stage after you.
Marc:We talked about it on the original podcast because I was sort of hung up with it and it was probably closer to, you know, because I watched you do your jokes and then I went up there and just kind of riffed about something and killed and you just came up to me and very earnestly said, how do you do that?
Marc:I could never do that, yeah.
Guest:Why couldn't you do that?
Guest:Because I wasn't my my sort of struggle or path towards empathy is towards letting go and opening up and being myself.
Guest:That is what is very hard for me.
Guest:So that is why my jokes and my act was so tightly written.
Guest:So impersonal.
Guest:It was how do I write the funniest possible thing?
Guest:And how do I say it as best I can?
Guest:And I did fine.
Guest:But what I could never do and I'd like to be able to do someday is say, here is me and I don't know what to make of this.
Guest:And what do you think?
Guest:And you still haven't been able to do that?
Guest:I would like to try again and see.
Guest:But not in stand-up, in anything.
Guest:In anything.
Guest:I think that I come out around the edges, and I think that a lot of creative people do.
Guest:My children's book is not personal, but it shows, oh, okay, there is some sort of meta-rebellion creativity in me that I didn't get in childhood.
Guest:This is what I wish my parents had said when they read a kid's book.
Guest:And so that is very me, but it's certainly not autobiographical.
Guest:Did your dad write kid's books?
Guest:My dad, no.
Guest:Never did.
Guest:I think he might have written a manuscript for one once that he showed me.
Marc:Is he still around?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So he was, he did the- He drove me here.
Marc:No.
Marc:No.
Marc:He edited the big book of the Jewish humor.
Marc:He co-wrote a few autobiographies.
Marc:The Lee Iacocca one and some of Nancy Reagan and somebody else.
Marc:Was he a Republican Jew?
Marc:No, no.
Marc:It was just a gig.
Marc:He did a lot of liberals too, yeah.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I didn't look at his resume.
Guest:He worked with Tip O'Neill.
Guest:He worked with George Stephanopoulos.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:Magic Johnson.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Exciting for me.
Marc:Do you get to meet Magic Johnson?
Marc:How old were you when you met?
Marc:Oh, I was like 12.
Guest:It was amazing.
Marc:The best.
Marc:Yeah, incredible.
Marc:They still live in New England?
Marc:My parents, yeah.
Marc:So why is it?
Marc:What were you doing?
Marc:How many siblings you got?
Guest:Two younger brothers.
Guest:How are they doing?
Guest:They're doing great.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:They in show business?
Guest:Yes, my middle brother is a composer for TV.
Guest:Really?
Guest:He did BoJack Horseman.
Guest:Music?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Did he go to Harvard?
Guest:No.
Oh.
Marc:He got a job at BoJack Horseman?
Marc:Yeah, he's the composer for it.
Marc:That's amazing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is he like Danny Elfman style?
Marc:He worked on my show too.
Marc:He did the Caitlin Dever episode.
Marc:Oh, he did?
Marc:Yep.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So if you weren't, what was it you were brought up with?
Marc:That would make you so compulsively kind of competitive and focused to the point where you are still hobbled in being able to be comfortable.
Guest:That is a great question.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:My parents never understood it.
Guest:They did not put any pressure on me whatsoever.
Guest:I was like, I'm going all the way there.
Guest:Calm down.
Guest:Going all the way.
Guest:They were the opposite of tiger pants.
Guest:Like seven?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, younger.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like what do you first remember?
Guest:I remember asking my dad, he mentions this a lot, if a kid could win the Nobel Prize, which he thought was hilarious.
Guest:I meant it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I wanted to be an inventor.
Guest:I wanted to be a billionaire.
Guest:I wanted to be all kinds of things.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like whatever was sort of greatness.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just thought that was the only thing to do.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know?
Guest:And you don't remember- And I'm sure that I-
Guest:There's a flip side.
Guest:Like I felt I was nothing unless I did something huge, you know?
Guest:Like it always comes from that too, but I don't know what that is.
Marc:But did you have heroes at that age?
Marc:Einstein.
Guest:So Einstein was a hero.
Guest:Like whoever you could read a kid's book about.
Guest:You know, like who is dot dot dot.
Guest:Yeah, all those people.
Guest:Einstein.
Guest:The greats, yeah.
Guest:Einstein a lot, yeah.
Marc:Did you go the math direction ever?
Guest:I...
Guest:You know, it's weird.
Guest:Like a chemical thing kicks in around puberty when you suddenly continue in math or you don't.
Guest:I didn't.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:I was good at math as a kid.
Marc:Yeah, you were good?
Guest:Yeah, I was good in fifth grade.
Guest:Right, and that was it.
Guest:Wasn't a prodigy.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then like, you know, they say if you want to know if someone's a celebrity, ask them to fill out a form.
Guest:Like there's just something that you can no longer do.
Guest:Like I was just 14.
Guest:I was like, I don't know, fuck with math anymore.
Marc:I'll do it.
Marc:How are you going to impress anybody with math?
Marc:Yeah, that's true.
Marc:So you always had this compulsion to be the best, to be great, to be famous and to be known for inventing something.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you think that one's going to happen?
Guest:Inventing something?
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I'm now at the point where I'm trying to make sense of all this.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Well, I guess that children's book, it's weird about children's book that if you write a good one, which you did, it's forever.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like you'll be making money off of that.
Guest:And that is the purest thing I ever did.
Guest:That is one thing where I wasn't like, how do I make a great children's book?
Guest:I was like, oh my God, I know exactly what to read this three-year-old.
Guest:I'm going to go home and write it.
Guest:Well, you don't have kids.
Guest:And it's going to crack them up.
Guest:No, it's my friend's good.
Marc:Oh, it's your friend's kid.
Marc:You experimented on your friend's kid.
Guest:Well, don't phrase it like that.
Guest:No, I know.
Guest:But yeah, I would read him books and I was like, oh boy, I know what he's going to like.
Guest:And I went home and wrote it.
Guest:And then did you try it out on him?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he didn't actually like it.
Guest:But at that point I was into it.
Guest:I was like, oh no, this is going to work.
Guest:He's just too young.
Guest:Tell people what the conceit of the book is.
Guest:The book with no pictures.
Guest:And it's a book where the adult sort of breaks the fourth wall and is like, what kind of book is this?
Guest:And then it makes the grown-ups say silly words and make fun of themselves and protest.
Marc:But there's no pictures.
Guest:There's no pictures.
Guest:But the conceit is, I bet you think this book would be boring, but look what it's going to make me do.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And kids love it.
Marc:Kids love it.
Marc:That's an amazing thing.
Marc:That's so you didn't invent something.
Marc:Yeah, well.
Marc:Now, is this something you're going to do more of?
Guest:I'd like to, but I guess I'm a little precious about that because I really do care a lot.
Guest:I wouldn't just do it for money.
Marc:To do another kid's book.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you didn't do the first kid's book for money?
Marc:No.
Marc:You did it because you wanted to try to write a great children's book.
Guest:I just honestly, it sounds so like a life lesson.
Guest:I wanted to make children laugh, honestly.
Guest:I thought it would be the most fun thing in the world, and I made more money on it than on anything else.
Guest:In your life.
Marc:So that's the lesson.
Marc:Yeah, that's the lesson.
Marc:How are the short stories in the essays?
Guest:They did fine.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:They totally did fine.
Marc:You happy with those?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did you cram those?
Marc:Like once you got the deal, did you write like 12?
Guest:Books?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:Stories.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:There's 64 stories in the book.
Guest:I wrote like 200.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just went on a tear.
Guest:It was right after The Office.
Guest:And I was like all brain like melted from like eight, nine years in a writer's room.
Guest:And I just wanted to just write on my own every idea that I'd never expressed.
Marc:So early on.
Marc:So you're growing up with no pressure from your parents, but this amazing amount of ambition to be great.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So when you're in your teens, what were you doing to try to figure that out?
Marc:When did you know it was going to be writing or acting?
Guest:I was...
Guest:I was always good at writing and I never thought it was anything interesting.
Guest:Do you have a teacher that drove you there?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I mean, I would just, it was my natural thing as opposed to math, but I thought it was like, I didn't think it was anything interesting.
Marc:What did you write that made you believe you were good?
Guest:I would goof off and write a funny essay and I don't know.
Guest:Really?
Guest:In high school?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But like, I just thought, well, I'm, I like being funny and they, here's this assignment.
Guest:But again, I didn't think it was cool or anything.
Guest:Were you cool?
Guest:No.
Guest:I wasn't uncool.
Guest:I always say, everyone's like, I sat in the front of the bus, I sat in the back of the bus.
Guest:I sat in the middle of the bus.
Guest:Most kids sit in the middle of the bus.
Guest:That's how buses are built.
Guest:I was like a normal, I don't know, I wasn't cool, I wasn't uncool.
Marc:You could move through the groups.
Guest:You were always funny.
Marc:No, I couldn't, because cool kids wouldn't take me in.
Guest:They wouldn't?
Guest:No.
Marc:So then you weren't cool.
Guest:I wasn't cool, but I wasn't uncool.
Guest:I was just like, whatever.
Guest:He's just a kid.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:He's kind of funny.
Guest:He's kind of awkward.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Oh, so that was it.
Marc:Well, it's not binary, is it?
Marc:Kind of.
Marc:I didn't see it that way.
Marc:Well, I mean, maybe it's not, but I think that there is a middle zone.
Guest:I was like, you can do your homework and find a party with weed now and then.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's where I was.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But I feel that there's a middle zone of people that are almost cool and can usually hang out with the cool kids once in a while.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:That's middle to me.
Marc:Is that what you were?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:I think so.
Marc:But I would say I would characterize it more slightly without a sense of self and kind of desperate for friends.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Yeah, that's me.
Marc:I mean, I don't know.
Marc:That was my middle.
Marc:I didn't care about jocks, and there were several different factions of cool kids, and I wasn't that big a druggie.
Marc:But I found a crew of guys that I thought were, you know, that I really wanted to hang out with.
Marc:And I tried very hard to do that.
Marc:And I succeeded.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And you did that probably by being funny.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Funny.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:For them.
Guest:And annoying and annoying.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's what I do.
Guest:I could make the cool kids laugh sometimes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then you're sort of like, he's all right.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then there was a senior show at my high school that was like the, it was a big deal at the end of senior year.
Guest:You write like a parody show.
Guest:And I remember like a genuinely cool kid coming up to me in the cafeteria and saying, the word is you're the one to write the senior show.
Guest:And I was like, oh, this is it.
Guest:This is my calling.
Guest:I'm the guy that's supposed to write funny things for the cool kids.
Guest:And that's what I've done ever since.
Guest:And literally John Krasinski was in that high school class with me and starred in the show.
Guest:And he remembers?
Guest:Yeah, of course he remembers.
Marc:You guys were friends in high school?
Guest:He doesn't remember me?
Guest:Yeah, we're friendly, yeah.
Guest:But literally, I've been like, oh, writing for the more popular kids my whole life.
Guest:And Krasinski, yeah.
Guest:But was he a cool kid?
Marc:He was a cool kid, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, tall.
Guest:Tall, basketball player.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:But nice guy?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In high school?
Marc:Really?
Marc:Not a dick?
Marc:No.
Marc:Were there dicks?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:That's high school.
Guest:It was no everyone was lovely.
Marc:Yeah, but did you go would you go to public school?
Marc:Yeah, like a good public school and Newton Newton South.
Marc:Yeah
Marc:Yeah, Newton was that area.
Marc:It's weird, too, how Jewish, because Boston Jews are different.
Marc:They're not the same as New York Jews.
Marc:Tell me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think they try to pass more somehow.
Marc:Interesting.
Marc:Maybe more of them are German Jews.
Guest:Well, my father is Canadian.
Guest:Oh, Canadian Jew from Montreal?
Guest:Good guess, Toronto, but that's its own thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And a female friend once said, oh, that's my dream, a Canadian Jew.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I said, why?
Guest:She's like, it takes the edge off.
Guest:Yeah, it does.
Guest:So a little bit of a proper.
Marc:Well, there's also the weird thing between German Jews and just standard Ashkenaz Jews.
Marc:There's a peasant Jew and then there's a German Jew thing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And the German Jews- We're closer to peasant Jew.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:But I get it.
Marc:Yeah, you seem like that.
Marc:I mean, you look kind of peasant Jew.
Guest:I'll take it.
Marc:But the German Jews are like- They're like wasps.
Marc:Yes, exactly.
Marc:So that wasn't what it was.
Marc:It was a Canadian Jew.
Marc:Yeah, they just immigrated through Canada.
Marc:Your mom too?
Guest:No, Connecticut, like normal.
Guest:Normal Jew?
Guest:Jap girl.
Guest:Jap girl?
Yeah.
Guest:I've never said that, I guess.
Guest:Stanford, Connecticut, you know.
Marc:Yeah, I get it.
Marc:But originally from New York, her family are always Connecticut kind of thing.
Guest:She was from Stanford.
Guest:I think her dad lived in Brooklyn before Romania or whatever.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you had all the grandparents growing up?
Guest:No, I had a couple.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then lost them shortly after.
Marc:And how Jewy was it for you?
Guest:I mean, I grew up kosher home.
Guest:Kosher home?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's really Jewy.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:They still do it?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No kidding.
Guest:Yeah, pretty Jewish.
Guest:So you did Friday and Saturday on your bar mitzvah?
Guest:No, I did Saturday in the bar mitzvah.
Guest:We weren't Shomer Shabbos.
Guest:But two sets of utensils, that's not nothing.
Guest:No, that's real.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So your father was pretty religious?
Marc:Yep.
Marc:Still is, yeah.
Marc:Still is.
Marc:And how do you feel about it?
Guest:I'm somewhat religious too.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Do you study Torah?
Guest:No.
Guest:I don't study Torah currently, no.
Guest:But have you?
Guest:I mean, bar mitzvah, yeah, as a kid.
Marc:But that's just it, huh?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:But you don't read, like, you know, if you look at your dad's... If you handed me a Hebrew book, I wouldn't... No, but I mean, but just like philosophically, like, you know, you're doing a show now that deals philosophically with issues...
Marc:And the way that, you know, you present, is it influenced in any way by, you know, your education around Judaism?
Guest:Oh, completely.
Guest:It is.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I think there's a structure of comedy that is very, you know, how does the unlikely person outsmart somebody?
Guest:Right.
Guest:What is sort of the unlikely twist that you could have seen coming if you had thought?
Guest:of it, it's a very structured sense of comedy that I loved growing up.
Guest:Right, yeah, so who were your guys growing up?
Guest:Well, one that you know, Jonathan Katz, was like a hero in our house.
Marc:Oh, did your folks know him?
Guest:Yeah, because he lived in Newton, and he loomed very large, he was a famous comedian, and his show Dr. Katz was out.
Marc:When I worked with him, he had the guitar with the cassette bit, where he would play, he would do the song, I can't remember what it was,
Marc:He played, I don't remember if it was a guitar or bass, but he would do like a, to close, he would do a song that we all knew.
Marc:And then, you know, like it would be his voice just doing it.
Marc:It was like, you know, an old one, Save the Last Dance for Me or something weird like that.
Marc:And he would just be singing it.
Marc:And then out of nowhere, this background voice would happen.
Guest:Oh, I know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, I know.
Guest:That's it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What song is that?
Marc:Save the Last Dance for Me.
Marc:It is.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that was like, I used to work with him as a comic.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you were on Dr. Katz.
Marc:I was on Dr. Katz maybe twice.
Marc:But he was not unlike me in that scene.
Marc:It's kind of an anomaly because Boston comedy was not in any way Jewish.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Not really.
Marc:Stephen Wright?
Marc:He's not Jewish, is he?
Marc:Stephen Wright?
Marc:Is he Jewish?
Marc:I don't think he's Jewish.
Marc:I assumed.
Marc:I don't think so.
Marc:Really?
Marc:No.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:David Cross?
Marc:Yeah, but that's after.
Marc:But the core group of the guys who were working, like the clubs in comedy, like Mike McDonald.
Marc:Oh, that.
Guest:Yeah, that Boston comedy.
Marc:Then there's Jimmy Tingle.
Marc:Jimmy Tingle.
Marc:But he was one of the more sophisticated ones.
Guest:Yes, he was the sophisticated because he had a theater show.
Marc:Lenny Clark, Kenny Rogerson, Don Gavin, Kevin Knox.
Marc:And who did the comedy connection?
Marc:Joe Yannetti.
Marc:Hosted every... Well, there was one guy, Seisler.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Rich Seisler, who passed away.
Marc:Bob Sybell, I don't believe was a Jew.
Marc:There were all these guys.
Marc:It's a rough, yeah.
Marc:Steve Sweeney.
Marc:Yes, that's the name I was looking for.
Guest:Yes, yes, yes.
Marc:Well, these are the guys that, you know, I started comedy opening for those guys on one-nighters.
Marc:That's how it started for me.
Marc:There was no alt clubs.
Marc:And Cross, well, that's a long story.
Marc:I used to stay at his house all the time, and we've had...
Marc:This is a good problem.
Marc:It is similar with you in stand-up in a way where I have interviewed David Cross two or three times since he became huge.
Marc:I remember when he left for LA with Cross Comedy, which was an improv or a sketch group.
Marc:And I went on to go to New York to pursue stand-up.
Marc:So he came here to do the group thing.
Marc:I went there.
Marc:And his stand-up was always abstract.
Marc:It was hard sell.
Marc:when you go to Dedham.
Marc:He tells a story about playing jimmies in Dedham, and a guy came up out of the audience and bit his ear.
Marc:But because of our background as comics, and I know him for years, and he's obviously done great things much beyond stand-up, I have said to him to his face, not thinking it was offensive, twice on the radio, who would have known that you would be the guy to get successful?
Marc:And at some point he just looked at me, he goes, I knew, I knew.
Marc:And I'm like, but you have to feel, you know, or why would you do it?
Marc:That's right.
Marc:But in my mind, I just remember being on stage, off stage, waiting for him to finish opening at the, at the front in Vermont bombing, just going like, come on, come on in.
Marc:I'll just bring me up.
Marc:You don't have to stay up there.
Guest:Isn't that sort of Larry David's trajectory too?
Guest:He was that kind of comic.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:I think so.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I think he was a little more honestly- And it's just so ballsy.
Guest:Because you will be hated by the crowd and you can bear it because you believe in yourself so much.
Guest:But he would- That I could not do.
Marc:I think he, Larry, was actually angry at them, it seems.
Marc:But David was doing something abstract.
Marc:Oh, interesting.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Like David was, you know, he would do these characters.
Marc:I mean, he was-
Marc:Definitely alienating them, and he knew he would, but it was truly funny.
Marc:He did all these different characters.
Marc:He would take real chances.
Marc:He would go up on stage doing a gay voice for like 10 minutes and go so over the top with it that people would start laughing.
Marc:And he would stop and go, I don't know if you're laughing at me or you're laughing at me.
Marc:And he really kind of took it.
Marc:That's funny.
Marc:It was more Kaufman-esque than just fuck you.
Guest:I love that stuff.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, so that's interesting.
Marc:So John was a family friend.
Marc:Cats.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you guys, how's he doing?
Guest:He's doing good.
Marc:Oh, good.
Marc:Good.
Guest:Good.
Guest:Yeah, he's lived with MS for so long.
Marc:Yeah, he...
Marc:Yeah, he actually emailed me, I think.
Marc:He emailed me complimenting me on something.
Marc:It was very nice.
Marc:He's always been a sweet guy.
Marc:Sent you a guitar?
Marc:No, he didn't send me a guitar.
Marc:Good friends with David Mamet, which is hard to understand sometimes, but you go back with people.
Marc:As they change sometimes, you just tolerate it.
Marc:But so how did he impact you?
Marc:So you're saying that as you were a kid, the funny people that had an influence on you, John was one.
Guest:Yeah, well, he was a one-liner guy.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And very written and structured.
Guest:So I thought that's what comedy was.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that was, but who'd you watch?
Guest:Like who were your heroes?
Guest:Mitch Hedberg was an early hero.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So those are the comics.
Guest:Yeah, one-liner people blew me away.
Guest:Rodney?
Guest:I was too young to get Rodney.
Guest:Now I do.
Guest:Yeah, but I didn't get Norm Macdonald, obviously timely, but yeah, the people you see on SNL.
Guest:How old are you now?
Guest:I'm 42.
Marc:Oh, so you're getting up there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're a grown person.
Marc:I'm no kid, yeah.
Marc:So I like the Jewish idea.
Marc:Like I used to like I wrote a bit about, you know, when you read Jewish literature, you read biblical tales or you read the Bible in general that I think the line I wrote was in Christianity, the wages of sin is death.
Marc:And in Judaism, the wages of sin are negotiable.
Marc:That there seemed to be an ongoing conversation.
Guest:Well, Simon Rich, you know him, one of my favorite comedy writers.
Guest:He has a very sort of Judaically influenced, I think, sort of moral.
Guest:It's funny, Judaism.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because you are always negotiating with God and it's so legalistic.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Well, if you do this, but then that, if you think of it this way.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that's funny.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's funny to negotiate.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:The back and forth is funny.
Guest:It's very logic based.
Marc:But it's also a conversation with with the explanations of behavior, of spirituality, of God, of what's right and wrong.
Marc:You know, it's just this ongoing kind of thing.
Guest:Yeah, that's great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But but I assume that.
Marc:That the Jewish tradition, like I just find it kind of fascinating that this book that your dad wrote is sort of like, it's all over.
Marc:It covers everything.
Marc:It covers, you know, like those Talmudic tales, Hasidic, you know, the Hasidic tales and one-liners.
Guest:The wise men of Helm.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, and also comics.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like actual comics.
Marc:Lenny Bruce.
Marc:But no, but like graphic.
Guest:Oh, comic strips.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Mad Magazine is in there.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:All kinds of things.
Marc:So your dad never sat you down and said you're funny?
Marc:They were always more concerned with your weird sort of unbridled ambition?
Guest:They were concerned about me.
Guest:My dad loved when I was a comedy writer, did not like me being a performer, I could tell.
Guest:Never said it, but didn't like it.
Guest:Very un-Canadian.
Guest:And he's a ghost writer, so it's like the opposite of being invisible.
Guest:He never wrote a nice novel.
Guest:He wrote a little nonfiction.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, but he didn't write a novel.
Guest:And this nonfiction, did you read it?
Guest:Well, his first book, and good for him, was about marijuana in 1980 called High Culture.
Guest:And he was like, he always donated to that cause before it was cool.
Guest:And I always admired that.
Guest:So he liked the weed?
Guest:Yeah, a lot.
Guest:I didn't know that he was doing drugs, quote unquote, until I was much older.
Guest:You didn't?
Guest:But yeah, he smoked weed every night of my life.
Guest:And I did not know, even though he was a kaleidoscope collector, among other things.
Guest:and would just crack up watching cartoons with me at night, or The Simpsons or Seinfeld every night, ice cream and comedy.
Guest:It made him very happy, it still does.
Guest:But he didn't write that.
Guest:And then my parents, when I did a prank or something, my mom would be anxious, my dad would like it, but they did not think of me as- A funny kid?
Guest:No, they thought I was funny, sure, but they, you know.
Guest:I don't.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You don't think I think they thought that I would maybe get in trouble for that stuff, you know?
Marc:So.
Marc:So.
Marc:But they were like they were supportive and it seems pretty well grounded and not, you know, pushing you in any direction.
Marc:They were just sort of like, you know, whatever you want to do.
Marc:You do it.
Guest:I guess so.
Guest:They didn't seem that interested.
Guest:They're nice.
Guest:They were very all over me, but they never were like, what are your plans or goals?
Guest:I would tell them goals.
Guest:They'd be like, calm down.
Guest:They made my mom very nervous.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Why?
Guest:She's a very anxious person.
Guest:Once I told her, can you believe Elon Musk is worth $20 billion?
Guest:And she said, whoa.
Guest:I said, did you just get nervous he would lose it?
Guest:And she said, I guess I did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, she's just nervous about success or heights or anything.
Guest:The responsibility of it.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:They did not like that I was so driven.
Guest:Huh.
Marc:Because they thought you... But it wasn't because they were concerned about... My dad liked it more than my mom.
Guest:My mom was very anxious about it.
Marc:My dad, yeah.
Marc:But they were the concern that you weren't... That you were going to come up against a problem that you seem to have, which is, you know, can you be your comfortable, authentic self ever?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They should have been because I am.
Marc:They weren't that enlightened.
Marc:They weren't separating that from ambition.
Marc:They're like, if all you care about is success, then how are you going to know who you are?
Guest:My mom's biggest fear was that I would be weird.
Guest:And I remember I was in like kindergarten and I would walk around the play.
Guest:I still remember vividly walking around the playground thinking things.
Guest:And my mom said to me once, she must've been tipped off.
Guest:What do you do during recess?
Guest:And I said, I go for a walk and I think about things.
Guest:And she looked so panicked.
Guest:And she said, you do not do that at recess.
Guest:You play with the other kids.
Guest:I said, I don't know how.
Guest:She said, you go up to those kids and you say, what are you playing?
Guest:Can I play with you?
Guest:And so I did.
Guest:And they said, sure.
Guest:And I played kickball from then on.
Guest:But I never forgot.
Guest:She was very nervous that I would be weird.
Guest:You never forgot how nice it was to just walk and think about things?
Marc:No, I still do it all the time.
Marc:I never got to.
Marc:Me too.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Constantly.
Marc:It's like it's the job in a way.
Marc:Yeah, it's totally the job.
Marc:But it's like it doesn't feel like a job.
Guest:And then you go home and write down what you thought about.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Or you work something out and you're like, oh, that's the angle.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's my ideal.
Guest:As you go for a walk, you think about, you let your mind wander, you come up with things, and then you go home and write them, and then it never feels like work.
Marc:But I get excited when I, like, I get, like, I don't read a lot of fiction because I want my brain to be provoked, and a lot of times fiction doesn't do that for me.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:So, like, I just read some new Douglas Copeland thing that he wrote with some other people called The Extreme Self about, you know, technology's effect on our sense of self and the sort of expansion of what we leave in the world through technology.
Marc:So, like, for me, like, that coincides with some things I'm thinking about and trying to execute on stage.
Marc:And then I get excited.
Marc:So, how do you stay out of just thought loops?
Marc:But I guess you have a project...
Guest:So like when you have to write seven shows, ten shows.
Guest:No, I obsess.
Guest:I obsess.
Guest:You do?
Guest:Yeah, it's a big problem.
Guest:I obsess.
Guest:And part of the reason, yeah.
Guest:Like about what?
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:Like which story to choose, how to write everything.
Guest:I change my mind constantly.
Guest:I lose sleep over a scene that doesn't matter.
Guest:And then I change it back.
Guest:And then I say, wait, can you pull the edit of this episode?
Guest:The scene should be different.
Guest:And they're like, we can't unlock it.
Guest:And I say, we got it.
Guest:Like I'm constantly.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, see, I think the difference then, like, you know, I think I'm finding somewhat of a difference between you and me that would... Obviously, there were plenty, and I'm not comparing yourself to me, but on some level I am.
Marc:We've chosen a similar path, but I do something much different and make, you know, much less impact.
Marc:So, the...
Marc:The idea for me, though, when I'm thinking about stuff, I really need to solve big problems that have to do with my understanding of the fucking world.
Marc:Whereas like when you've created a world that you're servicing, at least you have a context that enables you.
Marc:When you have a story, you're like, well, this is the puzzle.
Marc:And this has an impact and it's informed by the bigger picture.
Marc:But this is my story within that I'm exploring.
Guest:Yeah, but I'm still working out what if, I'm just removing my, I'm doing the same thing you are, but I'm removing myself from it.
Guest:I'm saying, it's not what if this happened to me, what would I do?
Guest:No, I get that.
Guest:But that's the problem.
Guest:But that's the problem.
Guest:Isn't that the problem?
Guest:With me?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Well, yes and no.
Guest:In a good way, it leads to a story that more people can grab onto.
Guest:I guess.
Guest:Because if it's Jim and Pam, instead of you and your ex on The Office, like, okay, now you've kind of created something more universal.
Guest:I get that.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But honestly, though, I can write for them.
Guest:I can't write nearly as well about me and whoever.
Marc:But I'm assuming that, you know, when I watch those five episodes, that the only character that seemed truly informed by by maybe who parts of who you really are was that guy on the stand.
Guest:To me, the only person is Lola Kirk in The Commenter, the woman who is driven crazy by a single anonymous comment online.
Guest:That's the one I felt was me.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:So politically and in terms of where you stand as a progressive?
Marc:I'm not that progressive.
Marc:I didn't relate to him that much.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So The Commenter.
Marc:So that's you.
Guest:That's me.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, okay.
Marc:That makes sense.
Guest:Which is probably why I was obsessed with coming on your show.
Marc:That makes sense, though, because because that character like, you know, I go through that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, like I you know, and I so those were that's interesting.
Guest:So that was a crisis for you.
Guest:That so that the plot of that is a woman who is getting constant and convincing positive feedback from everyone in her life.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:gets one negative anonymous comment online and becomes obsessed with it and pulls that thread and gets more and more feedback that seems to be right.
Guest:And she starts to trust that only the commenter is honest with her and she throws away her life to pursue the commenter.
Guest:That to me is my sort of fear and fantasy that someone out there
Guest:knows more.
Guest:And it was what drove me creatively when I was doing stand-up was that idea of the audience will know what to think of what I'm... They'll tell me if this joke works or doesn't or if they are comfortable with it or not.
Guest:Well, you'll know immediately.
Guest:You'll know immediately.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:And they're right.
Guest:And I do think that...
Guest:A better level to be at as a comic is, I don't know, everyone's probably a different set point is, and I think, you know, Larry David and David Cross might be the other extreme of, I know what I think is funny and I don't give a fuck what you think.
Marc:Well, at some point you have to get there and I think you've gotten there.
Marc:to some degree.
Guest:Well, this show is very much like this is what I think.
Marc:Yeah, it's not as a stand-up, but I mean, at some point, you have to do, in order to survive, and you have to at least believe that what you're doing is...
Guest:Well, I remember one comment you said about me online that was very funny, and I liked it, was I said, they say the biggest risk to take is no risk at all.
Guest:So I'm gonna be like a boldest motherfucker out there and take no risks.
Guest:And you said, seems to be working out for you.
Guest:And I was like, damn, that is a very good burn.
Guest:That is a very good burn.
Guest:I get that.
Guest:And yeah, so now I am.
Guest:So now I am.
Guest:This show definitely does, you know.
Marc:Well, that's good.
Marc:Well, I think it's interesting, that thing, because I'm trying to figure out what my experience with being trolled is.
Marc:And I did an episode of Marin that was actually about me pursuing a guy named Dragon Master to a Dungeons and Dragons game and figuring out where that guy was to ask him, why does he keep doing this to me?
Marc:And basically, he was just like, I don't like you.
Marc:It wasn't as thoughtful and sort of- But it was more personal or more directly personal.
Marc:It was.
Marc:It was based on a real thing.
Marc:But it was a similar experience where a guy just was relentless about some of my comedy and was picking it apart on a comment board and just accusing me of all these things.
Marc:And it was really killing me.
Marc:And because it resonated?
Yeah.
Marc:Well, yeah, but your insecurity is genuine, but it doesn't mean that those voices are correct.
Marc:The voices that you have inside of yourself that say you suck, that's not credible necessarily.
Marc:It's just part of your fucking engine.
Marc:But then when someone else says it, you're like, that's what I was thinking.
Marc:Well, yeah, but then I'm sure some people told you, but how come you don't pay attention to all the good ones?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Of course, yeah.
Marc:You know, so I try to figure out what the fundamental issue in me around that stuff was.
Marc:And I've done some research, and I've got a working model of what that is.
Marc:I could tell you what that is, but I don't know if it resonates with your life.
Guest:Is it?
Marc:Well...
Marc:I got it from a guy named Robert Firestone who wrote a book called The Fantasy Bond.
Marc:And the idea is that if your parents were selfish or emotionally negligent or maybe emotionally abusive, which mine weren't, but negligent, sure, where you're sort of left to your own devices because they were not the nurturing type or necessarily equipped to be selfless enough to properly parent or let you develop your own
Marc:you know, sense of self or you become an extension of their panic or whatever.
Marc:The idea was that if you feel uncomfortable as a kid,
Marc:And it's because of your parents' emotional position in your life.
Marc:You're not going to know that.
Marc:So if you feel awkward as a kid, you can't blame them because they're your parents.
Marc:They're the best.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you're going to blame you.
Marc:So then the voice you put inside your head at a very young age is you're not good enough.
Marc:You're not smart enough.
Marc:You're not this enough because that's the parents you invented because your parents clearly can't be the blame.
Marc:So it must be you.
Marc:And that voice stays there.
Guest:Mm hmm.
Marc:That was mind blowing to me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Does that affect you at all?
Guest:I don't.
Guest:I think it's mine must be so subtle.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because my parents, I mean, I've read your book.
Guest:I know how dramatic your childhood was compared to mine.
Guest:I did not have a dramatic childhood.
Guest:And yet I do have all these issues.
Guest:So I don't know if it's dramatic.
Guest:They were just they were just self.
Guest:Your dad's a dramatic character.
Guest:Yeah, I guess so.
Guest:My dad's a very undramatic character.
Guest:Well, but that could do it.
Guest:Yeah, that's what I'm saying is you can put anything on anything.
Guest:Well, I know.
Guest:He wasn't dramatic enough.
Guest:You've just got the boring version of it.
Guest:Honestly.
Guest:The boring version of emotional neglect.
Guest:Yes, I had a therapist and I said, I can't complain.
Guest:My dad has a great subtle sense of humor.
Guest:And I said, my dad, he always reminded me of David Letterman.
Guest:And he said, but you wanted Jimmy Fallon.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was like, I wanted Jimmy Fallon.
Guest:I wanted like a rousing... Letterman is one of the... I love Letterman.
Marc:I know, but he's... And I love my dad.
Marc:But he's one of the most emotionally crippled public people in the world.
Marc:That's interesting.
Marc:I never connected that.
Marc:I mean, the more we hear from Letterman, you're like, oh my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, he was like holding things pretty tight, man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:I don't know what my dad has.
Guest:In there?
Guest:That he's held in his Canadian reserve.
Guest:Canadian Jewish.
Marc:Yeah, but...
Marc:I get it, but you haven't thoroughly investigated this.
Marc:It's not pressing enough for you to honor your authenticity and your ability to be comfortable in your own fucking self.
Guest:Yeah, no, you're right.
Guest:It's my new number one priority.
Guest:What, starting now?
Guest:Starting this Rosh Hashanah.
Guest:It's been on my mind, yeah.
Guest:I'd like to figure it out.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, because like that whole thing, I mean.
Guest:Well, because I'd like to be more honest.
Guest:I'd like to be happier.
Guest:Would you though?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I also think, and this is also very convenient logic, I think I'm much more productive and creative when I'm happy.
Guest:That is where I get all my best stuff.
Guest:So you've been happy.
Guest:I've been happy, yeah.
Guest:I go in and out.
Guest:When I'm happy, I'm better.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:A lot of people feel more inspired when they're miserable.
Guest:I don't.
Marc:Yeah, I like I don't think it's a choice.
Marc:Like, you know, that whole sort of paradigm of like, you're just miserable because you think it makes you more creative.
Marc:Like, I don't choose to do whatever the fuck my brain is doing.
Marc:You know, I've gone periods where I don't know if I've been happy, but I've been more self accepting, you know, and I have peace of mind.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I'm not, you know, freaking out about something.
Marc:And then you're just honest about that and funny about that.
Guest:Yeah, I just react to wherever you are.
Marc:Yeah, I know, but it doesn't, you know, people don't necessarily feel safe as an audience with that, which I think I'm gathering is another difference in terms of, you know, why I see that maybe we have something in common, yet, you know, however you've managed your life, you know, enables you to have a lot more of your shit together than I ever did.
Marc:And again, I'm older than you and we're not, we are totally different people.
Marc:But the truth is, because I'm primarily a stand-up and now an actor and I do the podcast, it's like when I... I just did five shows in St.
Marc:Louis because I'm trying to put together a new hour.
Marc:And during the late shows, I do clubs so I can do the work to build it out.
Marc:And the only way I can do the work is to improvise.
Marc:So...
Marc:Second show, when it gets weird and I'm bored with myself and I start talking very personally about my girlfriend's tragic death or my fucking parents, you know, I realize like, you know, is this entertainment?
Marc:I don't know, but it's what I do.
Marc:So I don't think that I'm for everybody, obviously, but I don't think that I ever was.
Guest:There was never a safety wall between me.
Guest:When did you know you weren't for everybody?
Guest:Because I just found it out about myself.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the thing is, you're for enough people in a general way.
Marc:I mean, you have parents who have kids that love your book.
Marc:You have, you know, short fiction that sold very well.
Marc:So you're of an ilk of people that you can be more generally crowd pleasing.
Marc:Not just crowd pleasing, but but of a way, you know, like I relate to that guy.
Marc:You know, I'd like to meet him.
Marc:He doesn't scare me.
Mm hmm.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm sure that like in your life, no matter how many relationships you've been in, you know, the women you've been with aren't going like, yeah, he's a very scary man.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Yeah, there's some, you know, I mean, you know, things can hide behind subtlety.
Guest:You know, you're looking at me like, Oh, I see it.
Guest:I see it right now.
Guest:The anger.
Guest:No, not anger, but just, you know, crazy.
Guest:Like whatever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No one is.
Guest:I thought for many years, I'm the one I'm like Jerry Seinfeld.
Guest:I'm the one who is not fucked up.
Guest:I'm the one who's just, did you listen to his interview with me?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He couldn't be more fucked up.
Guest:That guy, there's no one more fucked up than Jerry Seinfeld.
Guest:Well, there you go.
Guest:It's always, Mulaney, it's always who you least expect.
Guest:You know, Mulaney was the most normal guy.
Guest:Now you're like, oh, okay, that's what you've been.
Guest:Yeah, but when I met him, I'm like, what's going on in there?
Guest:Same with you.
Guest:Same with Seinfeld?
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:Same with you.
Guest:By the way, I'm relieved.
Guest:I want some of that to come out, you know?
Guest:What are you going to do?
Guest:How are you going to do it?
Guest:I'm doing therapy.
Guest:I'm resolved on this show.
Guest:Have you started doing stand-up again?
Guest:I'd like to.
Guest:I want to.
Guest:But you're laughing at me.
Guest:You could do a one-man show?
Guest:Like Neil Brennan at the Terry Lane.
Guest:I want to, and I think I will.
Guest:Neil Brennan is very self-actualized and self-aware.
Marc:Yeah, he's gotten there.
Guest:But he was very depressed for a long time.
Marc:But depressed, but also he's able to track...
Marc:You know, so much of his issues to, you know, a fairly alcoholic family.
Marc:And there was, you know, definitely kind of general groups of a certain type of recovery that were available to him for him to process.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:A lot of that.
Guest:But I think, yeah, I would like to go do it again, but I would I would want to do something very different.
Guest:And so that's another motivation to sort of find who I really, you know, Jerry doesn't think he's fucked up.
Guest:And I didn't either, is what I'm saying.
Marc:But you know it.
Marc:But he still doesn't.
Marc:I don't know if I know it.
Marc:I mean, again, I know it about me.
Marc:But with Jerry, my belief about what comedy is and what it can do is very different than his.
Marc:But what you did see in him was emotionally he's wrapped very tight.
Marc:And there is a certain amount of darkness there.
Marc:And you can track it in that interview.
Marc:The guy was brought up by two orphans.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was insane to learn.
Guest:That's like a parody of, yeah.
Marc:Neither one of them were parented.
Marc:How do you know how to be parent?
Marc:So he's left to his own devices to put himself together.
Guest:And that's who he becomes, the most put together comic ever.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:So what happened to you?
Guest:Well, I don't know.
Guest:What do you mean?
Guest:Stop it.
Guest:I don't know what happened to me.
Guest:Come on, you're a smart guy.
Guest:You thought about it.
Guest:When it bursts out, I'll be the greatest comic.
Guest:Do you ever cry?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:About what?
Do I ever cry?
Marc:oh man i don't know all kinds of things uh-huh yeah you don't buy it do you cry i mean yeah i'm about to cry now maybe you just don't want to man maybe like you know i do what do i keep saying i don't know but i would say i don't want to see i knew like i knew with mulaney only because like you know he'd been sober so goddamn long right since he was like a kid right and you know he's another guy you know hyper achiever
Marc:you know tight right you know control freaky guy in a way you know in terms of his work like you know apparently he's processing all this stuff on stage because now his fucking life is public because he's a big enough celebrity to draw that kind of attention so now he has to reckon with it in his jokes but he always kind of did but he always had sort of a patter that hid the darkness yeah you know that there was that sort of you know this kind of almost 1950s
Marc:40s talk that hid the real darkness of what he was talking about.
Marc:But it was always sort of there.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And Seinfeld, too.
Guest:Seinfeld, you know, even his sort of most easygoing stuff has a lot of sort of bitterness turned into affability.
Guest:I think so.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Which is a great weapon of it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then there's Larry David powering the TV show along with him.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, yeah, that made sense.
Marc:It's a great combination.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, all right.
Marc:So this show, someone said you were in my hometown.
Marc:Was it for this show?
Yeah.
Marc:It was for the movie I shot called Vengeance.
Guest:I was in Albuquerque.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:When's that coming out?
Marc:You say that like that's never coming out?
Marc:No.
Marc:I'm saying that this is just another thing you've done.
Marc:You never stopped working, it seems.
Marc:And I don't know why I'm spiteful about that.
Marc:There's part of me that's like, when are you going to just relax and figure out who the fuck you are so we can all assess you properly?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:No, I need to do that.
Guest:I need to do that.
Guest:No, you don't.
Guest:Yeah, I do.
Guest:You never have to.
Guest:I want to do that.
Guest:For yourself?
Guest:Yeah, for myself.
Guest:By the way, I lived at Odenkirk's house.
Guest:I know.
Guest:The other day, I turned on my HBO Max, and there's an Odenkirk account.
Guest:So he's using my HBO Max.
Guest:Oh, is he?
Guest:The fucker.
Guest:Oh, why not?
Guest:Why not at all?
Marc:No, I was honored.
Marc:He bought that house from a guy I grew up with.
Marc:Oh, cool.
Marc:What was I going to say?
Marc:Oh, the other issue was, I think that what people criticize you about.
Marc:Specifically me and Andy Kenwood.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:I was like, yes.
Marc:Is that, you know, you got a golden ticket.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Out of Harvard.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Because you did the whole thing, right?
Marc:You did the Lampoon.
Marc:You did the Hasty Pudding or whatever.
Guest:I did the Lampoon.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what was the other silly show?
Marc:I didn't do that.
Marc:The Hasty Pudding.
Marc:I didn't do that.
Marc:Isn't there another one?
Marc:That's the one.
Marc:That's the one?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you did the Lampoon.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Which I visited.
Marc:It's so weird.
Marc:It's amazing.
Marc:They had me come over to give me the prize.
Marc:But I don't drink or nothing, which seemed to disappoint them.
Marc:But they invite me over to do that ceremony there.
Marc:And I'm like, these guys are fucking kids.
Marc:What is this?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's amazing.
Marc:But it'd become mythic in my head.
Guest:It is mythic.
Guest:Oh, you're saying they were just kids.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:But that building and those ceremonies is crazy.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know much about them other than the one where they give the guy the thing.
Marc:And I think that everybody was disappointed.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I don't think they were that excited.
Marc:Because usually they want a drink.
Marc:Yeah, but they knew that about you.
Guest:I guess.
Guest:I don't know, man.
Guest:So what's so amazing about it?
Guest:I mean, if you didn't respond to it, you didn't respond to it.
Guest:Well, no, I like the lampoon.
Guest:Yeah, it's this psychotic.
Guest:This castle built by an insane person on an island in Harvard Square where 18-year-olds at Harvard, who could go in any direction they want, instead devote their lives to the most esoteric comedy and anti-comedy to make each other laugh.
Guest:I mean, it's this insane system.
Guest:That is the system.
Guest:And so to me, I understand the privilege that I, A, come from and look like I come from.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:to mitigate it yeah it was fucking hard to get into harvard it was fucking hard to go through that lampoon it makes you nuts yeah you know and um and so that is that's its own thing i'm not saying that andy kindler is wrong that i got a golden ticket but like in my mind it's like dude i worked so like i heard that conan was in the lampoon i was like i gotta i gotta get into harvard and go to lampoon you know
Marc:So, but that was the thing is that you always put the work into get there.
Guest:That, you know, those of us who, you know, like I. But it would be also fun to like, you know, have fun along the way.
Marc:But you did not.
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, I liked what I was doing.
Marc:The lampoon was fun though.
Marc:You seemed to get excited about it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's, it's a fascinating thing.
Marc:Fun?
Marc:No, no fun.
Guest:It's a lot of fun and a lot of like, a lot of like, you know, spiraling about what the hell is this thing?
Marc:Oh yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's weird.
Guest:So when you're so, but, but have dreams about it for the rest of your life if you're in it.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This sounds like traumatic.
Guest:Yeah, I think it's probably like, not that it's nearly as important, because it's the most irrelevant thing in the world, but like SNL, people that are on SNL, they dream about it for years.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's just this weird high pressure thing.
Marc:But isn't there, like sort of, like isn't there a kind of, did you, I've talked to other people about this, and I wish I had more discipline as a kid and could have gotten into Harvard, but I did not.
Marc:But nonetheless,
Marc:Isn't there some sort of older boys network that kind of functions in Hollywood?
Marc:Is that a myth that when you come out of Hollywood, if you did well at the Lampoon or if you have a reputation within these circles, aren't there people that are like, you should check out this kid Novak?
Marc:He's writing a thing.
Marc:So Greg Daniels knew about you from somebody else.
Marc:Bip, bop, boop, bop.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:As Andy Kindler would say.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Bip, bop, boop.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:That said, I get it, being on the other side of it.
Guest:It's like, okay, these people were literally trained.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's like a pre-professional program in comedy.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:For like A students and you have your own show and you're freaking out.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And you're like, I have five slots.
Guest:I have seven slots.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay, who do you know?
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I get it.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So you got a shot because you did the work.
Marc:But the work that you did is seen mistakenly so perhaps as privileged.
Guest:Mistakenly a little bit and a little bit totally true.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:I also look, I grew up in the kind of like healthy suburban, like book filled house.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:That was a very reasonable job.
Guest:Does that even exist anymore?
Guest:Is it going to even exist anymore?
Guest:No, I don't think it does because I think that, you know, when I was growing up, you picture like, oh, Ames, Iowa.
Guest:Any town you haven't heard of, you assume is idyllic.
Guest:Now, any town you haven't heard of, you assume is like a methed out wasteland.
Marc:Or you assume it's an option.
Marc:What do you mean?
Marc:That people are leaving for those towns, dude.
Marc:I was just in St.
Marc:Louis, man.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:And, you know, people, cost a living's cheap.
Marc:It's sort of on the- Right, yeah.
Guest:Now it's evening out again, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, it's kind of on the up and up.
Marc:It's weird, yeah.
Marc:You know, they're renovating.
Marc:There's, you know, I mean, you know, gentrifying, you know, whatever your opinions about that are.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:But I mean, a lot of these places, like, well, Vermont's not a meth hole, but I mean, like, I've been- No, are you kidding?
Guest:Vermont is the biggest heroin problem in the country.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:heroin's different you know it's a slower situation but but uh it's a problem no no i get i get a lot of meth yeah but i'm saying that a lot of these these non-coastal cities that have a good cost of living and some you know some urban infrastructure are are appealing to people yeah i mean this place is like i think it's all going to be on fire soon right and and and whatever's going on in the east coast it's going to be water in
Guest:Well, it was the first time recently I heard someone say, we're going to leave for fire season.
Marc:Yeah, no, I did a bit about that in my last special.
Marc:Yeah, that, you know, like it's a little early this year, fire.
Marc:No, no, no, for sure.
Marc:But anyways, just to reconfigure your sense of Ames, Iowa.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Isn't that where the University of Iowa is?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's why it was in my mind.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:That's Iowa City.
Guest:But Ames has a big university there.
Marc:Iowa City.
Guest:Iowa City is the famous writer's thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Iowa City is idyllic for sure.
Marc:Well, I'm going to Bloomington, Indiana next week.
Marc:I haven't been everywhere.
Marc:And Bloomington like itself, the college town is kind of interesting, but it's a little weird, but everything's around.
Marc:Well, every college town in a red state.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But, yeah, I don't know what happens to that life.
Marc:I mean, you caught the tail end of it, I think, your generation.
Marc:Because the people I worshipped were probably of your father's generation or maybe a little older.
Marc:How old is he?
Guest:He is 72.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like that crew of intellectuals who sort of came up in the 70s.
Marc:I mean, those are the guys that defined most of what we think is funny.
Marc:And it sounds like, if anything, you got a good dose of that from growing up around it.
Marc:Plus the whoever was appealing and more age alike to you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But like, I don't know what happens now.
Marc:I don't know where it all goes.
Guest:Nobody knows.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Everything's so fucking decentralized.
Guest:And also, yeah, it's decentralized.
Guest:And what do you I mean, I think stand up is where it is right now.
Marc:Don't you think?
Marc:Well, the stand ups become very tribalized.
Marc:And unfortunately, you know, what's being pushed culturally is provocative stand up.
Marc:And, you know, you know, the enemy seems to be progressivism.
Marc:So I don't know.
Marc:This sort of anti-woke movement of stand-up is a little problematic, and I don't know that there's much pushback in any organized way against it, but it seemed to be taking up a lot of space.
Marc:The fuck you, you can't censor me.
Guest:But I mean as a form.
Guest:As a form, what is the ultimate thing to aspire to?
Guest:Look, again.
Guest:Now I think stand-up is bigger than movies.
Marc:No.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I really don't know what everyone's taken in.
Marc:Nobody knows anymore.
Guest:That's it.
Marc:There's no cultural hierarchy anymore.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that's, I don't know what to do with that.
Marc:You're it.
Marc:No, it's shifting.
Marc:No, but you're the poster of what it is now.
Marc:The beginning of whatever it is.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I mean, I don't know what to do with it because I don't know.
Marc:But that's the thing.
Marc:You don't do anything with it.
Marc:I guess.
Marc:You're it.
Marc:But how many people are going to watch your show and is it going to be enough?
Marc:enough in terms of i don't know like what do you what are you hoping to you know glean from that you get an award or are you like concerned about you know like how many people are watching how do we find out i want all of that stuff but what what really is it is like that some teenager like i was will see that and always talk about it always think about it and i don't watch award shows but you're okay with one teenager
Guest:No, I want millions, but like, you know, but it's about, I don't care.
Guest:Like to me, the South Park guys are the ultimate.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like you never see them at the fucking Emmys.
Guest:They're not like, they're not like directing a Marvel movie because it's status.
Guest:Right.
Guest:They make South Park and everyone who sees South Park knows what the hell it is.
Guest:They're at another level.
Marc:You don't think you could wrap your brain around directing a Marvel movie if you were asked?
Marc:No, I couldn't.
Marc:But what if they were like, but you can bring your thing to it.
Guest:I just don't like Marvel movies.
Guest:Me neither.
Marc:But if you thought, well, maybe I could do one, but push back against the Marvel.
Guest:That would be just self-justification.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:I couldn't.
Guest:On that level, I couldn't.
Marc:Look, man, I shit on Marvel movies and I was in the Joker for two seconds.
Marc:That's not a Marvel movie.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:That I could do.
Guest:That's, yeah.
Guest:You could do DC.
Guest:The King of Comedy version.
Guest:That's cool.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I would say, well, if it's like.
Guest:Yeah, I did say that.
Guest:It didn't hold.
Guest:If it's like the Mr. Show version of a Marvel movie, I suppose.
Marc:And now I'm doing a voice for DC Super Pets and people are like, this is the guy that doesn't like comic books.
Marc:It's different with DC.
Marc:DC isn't Marvel.
Marc:I have voice is different.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I would read the sides.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know.
Marc:Yeah, play Lex Luthor for the dog versions of the superheroes.
Marc:That's cool.
Marc:All right, fine.
Marc:Yeah, maybe.
Guest:But, all right, so what's Vengeance about, dude?
Guest:Vengeance, I play a podcaster, an aspiring podcaster.
Guest:Oh, so you're in it.
Guest:I'm in it.
Guest:And you wrote it.
Guest:Yeah, and directed it.
Marc:uh-huh what are you trying to prove man where's it like you've done everything so like where does this level off is it just that you want to keep doing everything and uh you know like you've done the acting you've done the writing you've done a little bit of stand-up you direct and now like you're hosting an anthology show where you talk at the beginning and write all of them and now is this is this the the drive to greatness yeah yeah
Guest:But it's excitement.
Guest:I take that walk and I'm like, oh, that would be a cool movie.
Guest:And then this would happen.
Guest:Then I do that.
Guest:And then I do it like that.
Guest:And then I try to make good on all those things that I come up with.
Marc:And it's exciting.
Marc:And your experience in getting opportunities to do these things is that your past opportunities have shown enough benefit or profit that you're given opportunities or that you seem totally capable of handling what you're asking for.
Marc:Why do you get so many opportunities?
Guest:I think some combination of willing it into being and looking like the kind of guy that wouldn't screw it up.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Now, what's the movie about?
Marc:It's a podcaster.
Guest:Podcaster, kind of fuckboy, as it were, who a girl that he was casually hooking up with dies of an overdose in West Texas.
Guest:And then he is the family.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:thought that they were very, very serious relationship.
Guest:So he's kind of guilted into going to the funeral.
Guest:When he's there, the brother played by Boyd Holbrook says, you know, we need to avenge her death.
Guest:I call my podcast producer played by Issa Rae and say, I have a great story about this, you know, poor devastated red state family that thinks they need vengeance for something.
Guest:And so it's sort of like this, you know, it's with Blumhouse.
Guest:It's sort of like a red state, blue state podcast, intellectual, like thriller.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:yeah it's fun and it's all done it's all shot yeah i'm editing it now yeah and how's it come out how's it look i think it's great but we'll see and you don't have you don't know the future of it uh it will come out right but but you know nobody knows the future of any movie now what does that mean is it in theaters i know peacock i don't know yeah i don't know yeah how do you do and do people watch them they won't tell you i don't know you know well look do you feel better about us
Guest:I'm kind of blown away.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You seem very open and vulnerable and true.
Guest:I don't know what you're going to say about me in the intro.
Marc:Do you feel like you've been open and vulnerable and true as much as you can?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know what... I feel like I've lost this...
Guest:Part of me is sad.
Guest:I'm like, oh no.
Guest:So I'm okay with Mark.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You're like, don't worry about that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So, but I mean, ultimately you're going to have to come back when you have the catharsis that enables you to somehow connect your true self to something that's comfortable in the world.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Should we make a date?
Guest:Should it be next Rosh Hashanah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay, fine.
Marc:It was good talking to you.
Guest:Amazing.
Marc:BJ Novak.
Marc:The premise is streaming now on FX on Hulu with new episodes every Thursday.
Marc:You can go to WTF pod dot com slash tour if you want to see where I'll be playing, where there are tickets available.
Marc:That's getting harder to do.
Marc:The Ridgefield Playhouse.
Marc:That's November 11th, two days before my New York show.
Marc:I believe there are tickets available for that.
Marc:November 13th, New York Comedy Festival at Town Hall.
Marc:That might be sold out.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Go check.
Marc:I should know these things.
Marc:I don't.
Marc:There is a music show happening that hasn't been announced.
Marc:And yeah, that's where we're at.
Marc:Let me play some mild metal for you now.
Marc:I'm working on my metal.
I'm working on my metal.
.
.
.
.
.
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey.
Marc:La Fonda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.
Marc:I know, man.
Marc:I know that got sloppy at the end.
Marc:I know it got sloppy at the end.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I know it got sloppy at the end.
Marc:Everybody gets sloppy at the end.