Episode 1257 - Billie Jean King
Marc:Lock the gates!
Marc:Alright, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fucknicks?
Marc:What the fuckadelics?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast.
Marc:Today on the show, Billie Jean King.
Marc:I got an opportunity to talk to her because she has a memoir out called All In, an autobiography.
Marc:But here's a deal with Billie Jean King.
Marc:A lot of people know her mostly for the Battle of the Sexes match against Bobby Riggs.
Marc:But the truth is, she's one of the most important and influential figures in the ongoing fight for equal rights.
Marc:She won 39 Grand Slam titles, 12 of them in singles.
Marc:She formed the first all women's tennis tour with eight other pro players that led to the founding of the Women's Tennis Association.
Marc:She testified in Congress on behalf of Title IX funding, which made discrimination based on gender illegal in all federally funded school programs, including sports.
Marc:She's the real deal.
Marc:just amazing i mean i just remember her always being there i do want to inform you people that we are recording these a little out like brendan's uh you know he's on vacation this week so i put these in the can last week so it's not going to be as topical though tomorrow
Marc:If this time's out right, I'm supposed to be playing at Largo tonight if I don't have COVID.
Marc:I'm literally testing.
Marc:So I will be able to tell you how that goes or didn't go on Thursday because that'll time out right.
Marc:I don't need to explain the days, but we are doing these early.
Marc:That's all.
Marc:But I can't talk about tennis.
Marc:I can talk about tennis.
Marc:There was a point in my brother and my life where, yeah, I wouldn't say I was a sports guy.
Marc:A lot of you know the story about me and Little League.
Marc:Not great.
Marc:And also, I'm starting to realize, and this is something I'd like to share with my psychiatrist and psychologist, mostly psychologists, people in the therapy racket.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I've had a sort of cathartic realization.
Marc:That seems logical, and I'm sure I'm not the first to have thought about it.
Marc:But I started to realize, just given who I am, that one of the primary realities of my life when I was younger, for as far back as I remember, is that I felt awkward.
Marc:I didn't feel like I fit in.
Marc:At some point, I learned how to be funny, and I could do a little song and dance, a little show, a little smart-ass crack.
Marc:I used to be able to sort of get in under the wire with the wit,
Marc:But I never felt that comfortable in my skin or in life or in friendships or around people.
Marc:I just didn't.
Marc:So if you're that kind of person.
Marc:I would say that 95% of your memories are going to be embarrassing and mildly traumatic.
Marc:So that means that you sort of exist in a kind of like aggravated mild PTSD just from being uncomfortable your entire life.
Marc:And even when you get comfortable, the residual effects of that discomfort of that mild PTSD from being embarrassed, the insecurity that comes from feeling like an idiot,
Marc:or feeling out of place or just, you know, you can never get any sort of social traction or you just said the wrong thing all the time.
Marc:It's just like, I don't think it can be understated.
Marc:I think that's life-defining shit and very hard to get out from under.
Marc:Why am I telling you all this?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:At some point, I realized that sports weren't for me.
Marc:At some point, my brother went the way of the tennis player.
Marc:We were both at a place called New England Tennis Camp.
Marc:My brother and I were equals at that time.
Marc:I guess it was I remember it was a summer where we were sent to two camps.
Marc:That was how my parents spent their money.
Marc:My father was a doctor and my mother was a painter and an artist.
Marc:And I think that the one summer came around in the guise of wanting us to have a good time.
Marc:They just wanted us out of the house.
Marc:Two camps in one summer.
Marc:Come on.
Marc:So there was like the Lighthouse Arts Camp that was great.
Marc:I talked to you about that, that traumatic event of playing Johnny B. Good badly.
Marc:Some guy who was in that band with me when I was 14 at the Lighthouse Arts and Music Community, he wrote me out of nowhere.
Marc:The guy, Matt, I believe he played piano, but in my mind it was bass, but maybe he played piano.
Marc:Either way, he said, wow, man, I don't remember it that way.
Marc:I don't remember it being that bad.
Marc:See, now, again, that's where this plays in, that if you feel uncomfortable, you feel awkward, everything's going to feel shitty.
Marc:But you know what?
Marc:It was bad.
Marc:He was high.
Marc:He was one of the high guys.
Marc:There was no way he could have registered what was happening.
Marc:So I disagree with his memory of the situation.
Marc:It was terrible, and it destroyed my confidence in music for the rest of my life.
Marc:So...
Marc:Apparently, he's working in the music business, not as a musician.
Marc:But see, that's how it goes.
Marc:Anyways, tennis camp.
Marc:So there was a time where it was tennis all the time.
Marc:And we went to this tennis camp.
Marc:We played all the time, me and my brother.
Marc:But like that was two.
Marc:A couple of things happened to tennis camp.
Marc:One, I played OK, was never great, never gave a shit.
Marc:One thing that happened was that my roommate was a guy, real jappy, kind of a Long Island guy named Stu, who, you know, I eventually grew to kind of he kind of annoyed me and I just resented him.
Marc:And I was hanging out with another guy named Peter Blumenthal, whose dad was an executive at NBC, which plays into my life later, but also smoked cigarettes.
Marc:He was kind of.
Marc:Tiny guy.
Marc:I wonder what happened to that guy.
Marc:I don't know what happened to that guy.
Marc:But, you know, we were a tennis camp and I would hang out with the guys who smoked.
Marc:So that's where I was at.
Marc:But Stu annoyed me.
Marc:So here, let's just set this straight.
Marc:Stu, listen to me.
Marc:I'm sorry I don't remember your last name.
Marc:But I got to tell you, I did steal the Red Octopus cassette.
Marc:I did.
Marc:I know I said I didn't.
Marc:I know you know I did.
Marc:I know it was your cassette.
Marc:I liked it, but I didn't like it that much.
Marc:I just didn't like you, and I don't know why.
Marc:I'm not a stealing kind of guy, but I did.
Marc:I took it.
Marc:I took the Jefferson Starship Red Octopus record.
Marc:I looked you right in the face.
Marc:I said I didn't, but I did, and I need to get that off my heart.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Marc:It was nothing personal.
Marc:I'm not a thief.
Marc:I just, you annoyed me, and I took the cassette.
Marc:Didn't even like it that much.
Marc:Okay, back to tennis.
Marc:So Craig, my brother, is jamming on the tennis, doing great.
Marc:I can hit a ball, like I said, pretty good, but me and Blumenthal are hanging out.
Marc:Another thing I realized,
Marc:is that these, looking back on it, is these counselors at these camps were like 19 years old.
Marc:When you're younger, you're like, who are these old guys?
Marc:And how come they're all hooking up and fucking?
Marc:That was happening.
Marc:I had this crush on a counselor there.
Marc:I think her name was Betty.
Marc:And this guy, Rogoff, I think his name was Bruce.
Marc:He had the room down the hall.
Marc:It was all at this, it was in Pauling, New York on the campus of a college.
Marc:He had the room and he had this whole wall, it seemed, of assembled people
Marc:plastic cassette shelves with TDK cassettes of his entire record collection.
Marc:It was just a set up for fucking outside of the bunk bed.
Marc:So he was having sex with this woman who I was, you had a crush on, but I was like 14 and she was probably 20, 22.
Marc:And I think she was hanging out with this guy, Bruce, down the hall.
Marc:It was all very upsetting.
Marc:But me and Blumenthal were smoking cigarettes.
Marc:So it turns out Blumenthal, his old man, this comes out of tennis, that's why I'm talking about it, is an executive at NBC.
Marc:And as many of you remember, I talk about, his father set up for me a tour of studio, what is it, 8H or whatever it is, the Saturday Night Live one.
Marc:Because I wanted to meet Belushi.
Marc:So I drive into the city with my grandma Goldie and this guy's dad set up this meeting.
Marc:So that was the time we went up there and we were waiting to meet Belushi and a very seemingly high Al Franken comes out.
Marc:Hey, how you doing?
Marc:We were like, I just want to meet John Belushi.
Marc:I was 14 with my grandma.
Marc:And he's like, John's busy.
Marc:John's busy.
Marc:Sorry.
Marc:And wandered off.
Marc:Franklin and his giant Jufro.
Marc:But that was the that was my first experience at the SNL building, which was disappointing.
Marc:And then the next experience I had was auditioning and being rejected for the show.
Marc:And that all comes from tennis.
Marc:That's my point.
Marc:You know, tennis, you know, sometimes it can take you places you didn't quite anticipate.
Marc:You know, I'm saying that's all I'm saying.
Marc:My brother went on to become a semi-pro tennis player.
Marc:He went to Nick Bollateri's Tennis Institute.
Marc:He played tennis all his life, all through college.
Marc:He set up a business after college, a tennis teaching business.
Marc:And then at some point, it just stopped.
Marc:Poor kid didn't have the natural gift, which you need to go all the way.
Marc:Worked his ass off.
Marc:And now, like, I think for years, he just didn't even fucking think about it.
Marc:Didn't even look at a racket.
Marc:didn't just didn't even pick it up and he's a guy because you know he's got all that muscle memory he just pick up a racket and in 10 minutes beat most of us he's just that good my brother craig he never he doesn't he doesn't even play recreationally but now he's like i think he's a pickleball addict i don't even know what that is but i think he has a pickleball problem
Marc:Billie Jean King has a new book out.
Marc:It's called All In, an autobiography.
Marc:It's available now wherever you get books.
Marc:And this is me talking to the legend over Zoom.
Marc:Are you signing autographs?
Guest:I would love to, but nobody's here to sign them for.
Marc:Oh, you're just making some notes?
Guest:No, but I did.
Guest:No, I am signing.
Guest:No, I'm learning about you, Mark.
Marc:Oh, you want to interview me?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I like.
Guest:I mean, I've seen.
Guest:Oh, we dropped.
Guest:We dropped my mic again.
Marc:Those are the lavalier mics.
Marc:They're way behind in their technology somehow.
Guest:Yes, they are.
Guest:You are very observant.
Guest:But you work in this biz all the time.
Marc:I do.
Marc:How do you feel about being in show business this few weeks?
Guest:Well, I think as a player, we are a performer.
Guest:I think I've been through this before.
Guest:It's all right.
Guest:I like it.
Guest:I like communication.
Guest:I like, I don't know.
Guest:I just like, I like people.
Guest:That's what I like.
Guest:Yeah, I do.
Guest:I really like people.
Marc:Well, it's interesting to me because I was thinking back on you and in my experience of you and the world, you have been ubiquitous through my entire life.
Marc:Seriously.
Marc:I mean, like I grew up in the 70s and it was just you were always around.
Guest:Yes, I was around a lot in the 70s, I guess.
Guest:But but it was like I mean, I've seen you on a lot of shows.
Guest:When did you start doing like those night shows?
Marc:I mean, the stand up.
Marc:Yeah, I guess I started that.
Marc:I mean, I really started doing that in the late 80s.
Marc:You know, I've been around.
Marc:I've been working it.
Marc:And I've been, you know, that's a hard job.
Guest:I don't know how you guys do it.
Guest:How do you get the guts to do that every night, especially if they don't laugh or don't do what you want?
Marc:You know, there's a certain amount of self-torture.
Marc:You're not unlike competitive sports.
Yeah.
Marc:You know, the risk of losing is always there and you just fight against it, except the game is not as specific.
Marc:You know, there's a lot.
Guest:It's more subjective.
Guest:Yes, definitely.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:Yeah, I was like when I was like going through your book and that's it.
Marc:You know that you made a big book.
Marc:That's got a lot of weight to it.
Marc:Quite a life.
Guest:It's really heavy.
Guest:I noticed that, too.
Guest:We got it down to that.
Guest:It was over 800 pages.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:You know, I'm old, man.
Guest:I'm going to be 78 this year.
Guest:I'm living large.
Guest:I've had a great life so far, and I hope I continue.
Guest:But there's no guarantees, as you know, in life.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, 800, how long did it take you to write it?
Guest:I spent over four and a half years on it.
Marc:And do you, like when you were doing it, were there periods where you were writing and you were kind of amazed?
Marc:No, you know what?
Guest:I don't write that much.
Guest:I have to talk it.
Guest:And I had people help.
Guest:But no, I've spent the time talking it, looking at it, correcting it, editing, you know, like all just...
Guest:I'm not a bad editor.
Guest:I'm not a great writer.
Guest:Yeah, I'm the same way.
Guest:But I can edit like crazy, and I just spent time talking, doing interviews.
Guest:We'd sit at the dining room table.
Guest:That dining room table's got a lot of
Guest:stories there and just tape tape tape write write write I talk it better and people keep asking me questions or whatever and I just keep figuring it out yeah talking it is much better it's a long process of wow but it's worth it you know you want to get it right and I had to leave so many people out which I hate my friends and things but you know what
Guest:You can't make the book 400 pages even if you don't do that.
Marc:So when you were telling the stories, were there were there moments like, you know, when you're going through your mind that you were kind of amazed or you found like what were that like in recollecting this life of yours?
Marc:What was it like the most pivotal things that, you know, you like when you were younger?
Marc:Do you remember turning points where you're like, oh.
Guest:No, no, no, no.
Guest:I definitely had two or three turning points.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:And then they've lived on with me forever because of those turning points.
Guest:And I think if you talk to most people, ask them questions, if they talk about their youth, they'll have their turning points.
Guest:Did you?
Marc:Yeah, I think so.
Marc:None of them were great.
Guest:What was a really important turning point?
Guest:What do you remember your first turning point?
Marc:Professionally, I definitely remember the first time I failed on stage and just the horrible trauma.
Guest:Was that the first time you'd ever been on stage or was it later?
Marc:That was later.
Marc:The first, again, another time I was on stage, which I was just talking about recently, is I did terribly.
Marc:And like, I'm starting to look back at my life and I realize that most of my, I find that if you're an awkward person or you feel uncomfortable when you're younger, almost all of your experiences are going to be embarrassing or traumatic.
Marc:That's been my experience.
Guest:I understand that.
Guest:That's who you are.
Guest:That's your personality.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So like when I look back, I'm just sort of like, oh, God, that was terrible.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:How did I get through that?
Guest:I'm like that a lot.
Guest:It's never good enough.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, I'm like that.
Guest:You are?
Guest:Yeah, I am.
Guest:But that's also what drives me.
Guest:And I love that drive.
Guest:So it's like, yeah, like the losses stay with you and you don't want to feel that feeling again.
Guest:And you're just like, you know, give me the ball.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But at least you had a context, and the context was tennis.
Marc:For me, it was just sort of like, how do I charm these people better?
Guest:Oh, no, but in a different way than what you're talking, because you're entertainment.
Guest:When you go in to get sponsorship in business...
Marc:Yep.
Guest:Or if you're trying to change things, then it's exhausting.
Guest:And you do have to learn how to talk with people.
Guest:How do you get them to move?
Guest:How do you get them to agree?
Guest:And also, maybe they come up with much better ideas than you have.
Guest:So you've got to actively listen all the time because maybe they're going to come up with a better idea as well.
Guest:So you've just got to keep listening as you go through the process.
Marc:When you were like a kid, though, like, do you remember, do you know where it came from?
Marc:Do you remember where your sort of being hard on yourself came from?
Guest:I think my dad may be watching him.
Guest:He was really intense when he was in sports.
Guest:In fact, he was so intense, he got carried off a couple of times.
Guest:A few times.
Guest:And my mother and my brother and I would be sitting watching like, you know, this is when he's older, obviously, in firefighters league.
Guest:They had a basketball league because my dad was very good in basketball.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:He'd want to go punch the referee or something.
Guest:And I'm like, oh, my God.
Guest:And my mother and we go, oh, God, this is horrible.
Guest:And they pull him off and take him off.
Guest:And then I start smiling.
Guest:And my mother goes, what are you smiling at?
Guest:I said, Mom.
Guest:You know, I think he's horrible.
Guest:He's terrible.
Guest:But I love his intensity.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:Because that's what makes greatness.
Guest:I said, Mom, I just love that part of Daddy.
Guest:And she says, Oh, I love that part too.
Guest:But he just...
Guest:So I would take the good part of somebody, I think, and aspect of them, and then I'd keep it.
Guest:I'd say, thanks, Dad, you gave kind of like a gift to me.
Guest:And then my mother would give me another gift, and that is not always going off the deep end or something, and she would be very kind and...
Marc:Grounded?
Guest:Grounded.
Guest:Very grounded.
Guest:Boy, did she keep my brother and me grounded.
Guest:Grounded.
Guest:Talk about sometimes taking the enthusiasm out.
Guest:But you know what?
Guest:It was good because we were we were crazed and obsessed with what we wanted to achieve.
Guest:So they really accepted that part of us and tried to keep it calm.
Guest:And my mother particularly would keep it calm.
Guest:And like you said, grounded and
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's interesting, though, when when you have intense like that, my dad was very intense.
Marc:And as I get older, you really do have to sort of sort out, you know, like, all right, there was some bad stuff there.
Marc:What what do I have that that is is great about that guy?
Marc:What do you think?
Guest:What do you think is the greatest thing that you dig?
Guest:What do you think?
Marc:Well, I think that at his best, he's a, you know, he's a he's a passionate guy.
Marc:He's charismatic.
Marc:He's engaged.
Marc:He's he's, you know, and he likes to laugh.
Marc:But, you know, he was a little, you know, manic and a little crazy and a little unpredictable and a bit abusive.
Guest:Yeah, I get it.
Guest:But yeah, sounds like you took the best parts.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, I've got the other ones.
Marc:I've just got to put them.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I got some of the others.
Guest:I have anger.
Guest:I had to work on my anger, but I worked on it really hard and I don't have it anymore.
Guest:I got rid of it.
Guest:I don't ever.
Guest:I don't even feel the same or anything.
Guest:It's great.
Guest:Really?
Guest:No, but I went to therapy and I still do therapy.
Guest:Are you kidding?
Guest:I worked hard in therapy.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:You can't.
Guest:You got to work it.
Guest:If you go to therapy, it's the same as doing anything else.
Guest:You got to work it.
Guest:If you want to just go for an hour or 15 minutes and then not think about it or feel about it or do anything, then you're not going to get that much better.
Guest:If you accept the responsibility of it and really want to get in there, I think it can make a big difference.
Marc:Oh, yeah, of course.
Marc:And as you get older, you know exactly why you're there.
Guest:Yeah, I need to be there.
Guest:Yeah, we're there because I need to be here and I need to do this.
Guest:I need to do this for myself and quite frankly, for others.
Marc:Yeah, you know where you're stuck.
Marc:Like, what were your primary issues when he started?
Guest:What, therapy?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I think it was probably my sexuality and my parents, my dad's anger issues, definitely.
Guest:But I loved his intensity.
Guest:I loved both of their passion.
Guest:I mean, they just, when they believe in something, it's 100%, which I loved.
Marc:Somehow, your parents created two professional athletes.
Marc:I mean, so there must have been some sort of like kind of driving element.
Marc:I mean, was he overly pressuring him?
Guest:Oh, absolutely not.
Guest:They're the opposite.
Guest:That's the reason we're crazed.
Guest:Because we could be.
Guest:And they are always trying to temper it.
Guest:Like, no, no, no.
Guest:Randy wanted to be a major league baseball player by the time he was 10.
Guest:At 11, I told my mom and dad I wanted to be the best tennis player in the world.
Guest:Of course, I didn't know any about tennis because I grew up in team sports.
Guest:And basketball is our first love.
Guest:And Randy ends up being a professional baseball player for 12 years, 10 of those with the San Francisco Giants and then with the Astros and Blue Jays.
Guest:And I got to be number one in the world.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know, they're like snowplow parents and they never want them to suffer.
Guest:And then, you know, their helicopter, they're always hovering over them and they, you know, just being so intense with their children and they have to win.
Guest:Oh, my parents didn't care at all about that.
Guest:We're the ones that were crazed.
Guest:I mean, we drove them nuts.
Guest:I can't believe I lost.
Guest:And my dad said, calm down, you're okay.
Guest:This is when my dad was a great life coach.
Guest:Calm down.
Guest:Do you think you're playing too much?
Guest:Not enough.
Guest:Do you still love it?
Guest:I said, are you kidding?
Guest:I love it.
Guest:I can't stand it.
Guest:I'm losing.
Marc:Was that your whole life?
Marc:That was the dynamic when he was alive?
Guest:He was amazing, but he was also a firefighter.
Guest:So he was away every other night.
Guest:My mother was the three of us, and then the four of us, then the three of us, then the four of us.
Guest:And then we'd also go down to the fire station sometimes and see him and the other guys and the other firefighters.
Guest:And when I was a baby, he used to take me down the pole when I was like three, four years old.
Guest:Daddy, daddy.
Marc:That's exciting.
Guest:That was so awesome.
Marc:So you had firefighters around all the time, like parties, backyards?
Guest:My uncle was a firefighter.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah, I did have it around.
Guest:And my dad, he was also a police officer for a while.
Guest:He didn't like it.
Guest:He was losing faith in humanity.
Guest:He said it was too tough on him.
Guest:He loved being a firefighter.
Guest:He drove the truck.
Guest:Every time I see a fire truck go by, I salute it and go, hi, Daddy.
Marc:So, yeah, that's sweet.
Marc:So when so you I mean, my brother played was committed to tennis for years and he just realized at some point that he didn't have the natural talent to be a pro.
Marc:He did.
Marc:He was sort of ranked in doubles one time.
Marc:He went to Nick Bolateri's tennis institute.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:No, no, that's real.
Guest:Nick is wonderful.
Marc:Yeah, it was hardcore.
Guest:What's your brother's name?
Marc:Craig Marin.
Marc:And that was his whole life when he was a kid.
Marc:So I was always on the outside of this tennis life.
Marc:He was at it all the time.
Marc:And at some point, he just realized he didn't have the natural ability that would take him over the top.
Marc:So he just gave it up.
Marc:It was brutal.
Guest:He really wanted it then.
Marc:He did, yeah.
Guest:Does he play at all recreationally?
Marc:He just stopped.
Marc:After college, he taught for a while, and then he was just sort of like, it was like never again.
Marc:Now he plays that pickleball thing.
Guest:Oh, pickleball's great.
Guest:Maybe he's disappointed.
Marc:Yeah, you gotta be.
Marc:It's gotta be kind of heartbreaking.
Guest:He'd be a good podcast for you, you know?
Guest:I couldn't resist.
Guest:Sorry.
Marc:So when did you start feeling that, you know, that I guess it probably happened naturally that it was your responsibility to to sort of start taking on the fights that you took on?
Guest:You know, that was at 12 years old.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:When I had my epiphany at the Los Angeles Tennis Club.
Guest:I grew up in Long Beach, California.
Guest:And when I started playing, I'd been playing tennis for a year.
Guest:I already knew I wanted to be number one.
Guest:That happened really early.
Guest:That was the second time I was on a tennis court.
Guest:So fast forward to 12 years old, I'm at the Los Angeles Tennis Club, and I'm daydreaming, and I started thinking about my sport because I came from team sports.
Guest:And I thought about it, and I thought, well, everybody's wearing white socks, white shoes, white clothes, plays with white balls, and everybody who plays is white.
Guest:And I hadn't seen a person of color yet play tennis.
Guest:So I'm like, where's everyone else?
Guest:So I started thinking about it.
Guest:I also wanted to travel and see the world and learn and was curious.
Guest:It drove my parents crazy because they're always asking questions and curious.
Guest:I started to realize that I could travel with it, and I just remembered I was going to promise myself I'd fight for equality the rest of my life after seeing that.
Guest:I just knew that was what I was meant to do, and that tennis, God willing, if I could become number one, I knew as a girl.
Guest:that I had a disadvantage because of my gender, that people probably wouldn't listen to me, but maybe if I could become number one, they might.
Guest:And I was going to fight for this the rest of my life.
Guest:And I made that promise to myself.
Guest:I have not veered from that course ever.
Guest:And I just got very, really, I got really lucky that tennis provided the platform and the travel
Guest:And also a way to fight for equality and fight for everyone.
Guest:Every single person needs to be represented.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:So I just think it's important.
Guest:I just know that sports were very fortunate.
Guest:And just like you, you're fortunate that people see you.
Guest:To try to help make this world a better place.
Guest:And it's just...
Marc:Early on, how did you manage your anger?
Marc:I mean, were there situations?
Guest:Not too well.
Guest:I had a temper on the court.
Guest:My dad said, of course, this is ironic.
Guest:This is just perfect.
Guest:I threw my racket.
Guest:My dad says, that's it.
Guest:You cannot throw your racket.
Guest:You're a bad sport.
Guest:You can't do that.
Guest:And of course, I'm looking at him like, really?
Yeah.
Guest:Coming from you?
Guest:We have a power saw in the garage.
Guest:And he turns it on and takes my one and only racket, puts it within about an inch of the blade, and I'm going, Daddy, Daddy, stop, stop.
Guest:I promise I won't throw anymore because I want to play tennis, right?
Guest:And I can see my tennis going out the window right now with one little, you know, right through the saw there.
Guest:So he says, okay.
Guest:And then after I had my racket in my hand, I said, Daddy,
Guest:I mean, really?
Guest:Are you really one to talk?
Guest:And he started laughing so hard.
Guest:Because he knew.
Guest:Totally busted.
Guest:Okay?
Guest:He was totally busted.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:I said, I got him.
Guest:Gotcha, Dad.
Marc:The drama of guillotining the racket.
Marc:I mean, that's like, you know...
Marc:He just started.
Marc:He turned the saw on.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:He turned it on.
Guest:He made it so dramatic.
Marc:Yeah, that's great.
Guest:So my dad and my.
Guest:Yeah, he was pretty intense.
Marc:But like, what about the anger?
Marc:Did you find yourself angry at male players?
Guest:Because of their entitlement?
Guest:Yes and no, but I wanted the men and women to be together.
Guest:Everything with me is to unite, okay?
Guest:It's to unite, not divide.
Guest:So I'm big on, I wanted the men and women to be together in an association, for instance, which would be the same as a union, but we're independent contractors, so we can't be called a union.
Guest:But to have one voice as a sport.
Right.
Guest:And the guys just kept rejecting us.
Guest:So, yeah, I was upset with them.
Guest:And they were really great guys.
Guest:I mean, I used to go to dinner with them, dancing, everything.
Guest:I really liked them.
Guest:We were like friends.
Guest:But when it came to money, they thought it all belonged to them.
Guest:And Larry, my former husband, told me, he said, Billy, if we ever get professional tennis, which we did in 1968, they will think every dime belongs to them.
Guest:They will want you to go away.
Guest:And I said, oh, no, Larry, these guys are my friends.
Guest:They're really great guys.
Guest:No, no, that won't happen.
Guest:He said, Billy, and when it's money, they think the money only belongs to them, that you guys don't earn any money, you don't draw any people, you don't do anything.
Guest:And he said, get ready.
Guest:And Larry was completely right and I was completely wrong.
Guest:So that was a wake-up call.
Guest:But was I disappointed?
Guest:Was I upset?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:It happened to be the men I was upset because they're the ones that wanted us out.
Guest:Not because of their gender, though, because of their actions.
Guest:And I still think we should be together.
Guest:And I will always think that until the day I die.
Guest:So there we go.
Marc:Well, I mean, when you when you testified in Congress on behalf of Title nine.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, you know, at that point you had, you know, some celebrity, you were a respected athlete.
Marc:And I imagine that must have been very rewarding to take it to the to the government and to, you know, to to shift the perception legally.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, I promoted Title IX, but I didn't pass it.
Guest:I mean, the Senate.
Guest:No, of course.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Guest:But, you know, I had three sheroes and one hero.
Guest:Senator Birch Bayh was the one that got it through the Senate, the Title IX.
Guest:And he actually wrote out, I think, the 37 words.
Guest:He was just amazed what Title IX equaled later.
Guest:And also, it helped get rid of quotas in the classroom, you know, before 1972.
Guest:Before Title IX was passed, there were classroom quotas, only 5%, 6%, whatever could be women.
Guest:And that's why we didn't have any women lawyers or doctors until after Title IX.
Guest:And then also we didn't have women's athletic scholarships until after Title IX was passed.
Guest:So Title IX is one of the most important legal things that have been passed in the legislation in, I think, the 20th century, probably top three.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's it's amazed that, like, you know, before that, you know, discrimination based on gender was just the way it was.
Marc:And that's 1972.
Guest:Right.
Guest:In 1973, when I played Bobby Riggs, we still couldn't get our credit card on our own.
Guest:I mean, that that sounds ridiculous now.
Guest:You know, it makes me laugh, though, because what is it?
Guest:People always talk about women.
Guest:They shop until they drop.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Why couldn't you get a credit card?
Guest:Why would you give her a credit card?
Guest:You're going to make so much more money.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, it's ridiculous, but they do that.
Marc:But it's like but that's that is exactly the it's sort of that, you know, the idea that the marriage contract is ownership in some way.
Marc:And that's really what all those rules are based on, that they cannot function or do anything without the approval or the consent of a man.
Guest:Correct.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's like I feel bad.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Like, I can't believe that's so recent.
Guest:It's ridiculous, isn't it?
Guest:I mean, think about it, really.
Marc:And I remember in 1973, I was 10 years old, and I remember the match with Bobby Riggs and the circus that it was presented as.
Marc:But it did have an impact in a positive way for you and for people in general, don't you think?
Guest:Yes, it was about social change, and it also helped –
Guest:make title nine more important uh and also it was only the third year of our women's professional tour tennis tour it was about social change and it was 90 million people that's a lot of people and i knew that was my one moment to fight for equality and have all these people hopefully would listen which is always right you know always walking on a tightrope though
Guest:Because you never know.
Guest:Okay, everything's audience.
Guest:Well, you know that.
Guest:God, who am I talking to?
Guest:Hello?
Guest:Anyway, everything's your audience.
Guest:In my whole life, one thing I do understand as a performer, as a professional athlete, that everything, if you give a speech, it doesn't matter, but everything is your audience.
Guest:They are the most important, each and every person.
Guest:So I knew this was my one moment, but I also knew don't screw it up because that would be very easy.
Guest:And the one way to do that is to lose.
Guest:So, oh, who's that girl?
Guest:Oh, she's that girl who lost that old guy and whatever, how they remember.
Guest:And also...
Guest:I could continue to, if I won, I could continue the fight a lot easier.
Guest:Can you imagine, I said to myself, if you lose, oh my God, if I lose, I'm going to wake up every single day of the rest of my life in the eyes of others as I lost to this old guy.
Guest:And I thought, I cannot, I cannot think about that.
Guest:Because every single day since that match, it's been mentioned to me or in some way there, okay?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Every single day.
Guest:We're talking about it now, right?
Guest:So I got today's taken care of again.
Guest:Every single day this match comes up.
Marc:You're eternally connected to Bobby Riggs.
Guest:Correct, but...
Guest:I wanted to win.
Guest:And if you win, that's what people remember.
Guest:And I can't believe all the discussions and fights going on and the bets.
Guest:Oh, my.
Guest:The bets.
Guest:You cannot believe the betting for that match.
Guest:I mean, Vegas, everything was going crazy.
Guest:And families were betting.
Guest:And if she wins, you have to wash the dishes forever and make me coffee in the morning.
Guest:And then if he wins, I'll do this.
Guest:Oh, my gosh.
Guest:It was like.
Guest:And then they had all these parties and the burbs, all the fraternities and sororities had parties that night.
Guest:I mean, it was crazy because I've learned all about this after the fact.
Guest:And everybody remembers where they were, you know, and more of Time Inc.
Guest:She's left Time Inc.
Guest:now, but she met her future husband that night.
Guest:They decided to go watch the match by themselves.
Guest:And she was engaged.
Guest:So she had to distance.
Guest:I mean, I've heard so many great stories.
Guest:Smith College went out in the streets with toilet paper throwing.
Guest:Yay!
Guest:I mean, it was crazy.
Marc:Wasn't it amazing when we all had just three channels to watch and everybody was on the same?
Guest:But you make a lot more money now because you had pay per.
Marc:But, like, when did you realize that, you know, after you did the Women's Tennis Tour and then the Women's Tennis Association, what was the relationship?
Marc:How did the relationship develop between you and...
Marc:and what was known or evolving as the women's movement, right?
Guest:I would sit with Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzig.
Guest:I didn't really meet with Betty Friedan, but no, I knew about all that.
Guest:I went to Gloria.
Guest:She actually helped Larry and me.
Guest:She and Pat Carbine, who was the editor of Ms.
Guest:Magazine, they helped us.
Guest:We started a women's sports magazine.
Guest:Larry and I did in, I think, early 75 or late 74.
Guest:And they were so helpful with that.
Guest:So I was around them from a business point of view, but I also was trying to get Gloria to use us more in the women's movement.
Guest:Because a lot of times they didn't connect that sports was so much what they were fighting for, that we represented everything the women's movement is about.
Guest:And that is winning, sweating.
Guest:It's okay to sweat.
Guest:Oh, God forbid we're a woman, we can't sweat.
Guest:No, we're real.
Guest:We used all of ourselves.
Guest:We trusted our body.
Guest:Girls are taught not to trust their bodies.
Guest:We trusted our bodies.
Guest:We showed what it feels like, what it looks like to trust your bodies.
Guest:And I said, Gloria, we are the essence.
Guest:And we're on television every day just about.
Guest:Use us more.
Guest:Integrate us more.
Guest:And that was hard on them.
Guest:Yeah, because they didn't come from...
Guest:that background what was their resistance the men understood no it's just lack of not living that and connecting with it like men connected with sports and so the men understood what we were trying to do when I talked to them and a lot of women understood it when we talked about it
Guest:But I couldn't quite get that, what I wanted.
Guest:And I've talked to Gloria since.
Guest:And I mean, she finally said to me the other, like two years ago, right before COVID, I'll never forget what we did.
Guest:There was a few of us on stage, but Gloria was there.
Guest:And she came up to me, and this is the first time she went, Billy, I got to talk to you.
Guest:How was it playing that guy, Bobby Rick?
Guest:How was that?
Guest:I can't imagine what that pressure was like.
Guest:I can't, you know, and all of a sudden I'm like,
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Now she's in her 80s and she's like totally enmeshed in this.
Guest:But she's also had an extra 40, 50, 60 years to see our advancements, to learn about us, you know, athletes.
Guest:I'm talking women athletes.
Guest:And I think she feels very connected now.
Guest:I know she was trying to feel connected.
Guest:She said, I didn't do sports, but I knew she was a tap dancer, a hofer.
Guest:And that was good.
Guest:I said, well, dance is sports.
Guest:I mean, sports is dance.
Guest:So try to connect on that.
Guest:But I could tell they they're so in their heads.
Guest:They're kind of from the neck up.
Guest:A lot of intellectual intellectual.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We have to use all of ourselves.
Guest:And I was trying to explain that.
Guest:And it's not that we don't use our brains, too, but we just have to kind of connect all of ourselves.
Guest:And isn't that.
Marc:an issue, wasn't that part of the problem of progress in a sense that a lot of the activism and the movement was, it was heady and it was in the streets and whatnot, but they were not interested in sports in general, even as consumers.
Marc:So wasn't that part of the struggle was how do you get women to engage in sports as consumers and fans and supportive masses?
Yes.
Guest:Yes, but also women are huge fans.
Guest:If the women all of a sudden said, of course, this is now after COVID or during COVID.
Guest:If we're, say, pre-COVID.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Then if the women said, we're not going to buy tickets anymore to the NFL, to the NBA, and to ice hockey, which is all men.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I think it's at least 40% of the sales.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I don't think women have any idea the power they have, ever.
Guest:That's why I want them to follow the money, and I want people to understand when a woman leads, she leads for everyone.
Guest:And what people do when women lead, we only lead for women.
Guest:And it gets me crazy.
Guest:Because that keeps our marketplace half as big.
Guest:Here's the usual thing.
Guest:Billy, thanks what you did for women's tennis.
Guest:I fought for pro tennis, and then the pro tennis hurt the women, actually, because the men wanted to get rid of us.
Guest:No, I've always fought for tennis.
Guest:But people always put me in, oh, you're always fighting for gender equity.
Guest:I am fighting for gender equity, but I'm fighting for anyone who doesn't get paid equally for equal work.
Guest:So the women happen to be really low on the totem pole there, so of course I have to fight for them.
Guest:We're under-resourced.
Guest:But in general, when you fight for anybody, it means you're fighting for everyone.
Guest:And they don't ever say to a guy, thanks for what you did for men's tennis.
Guest:Ever.
Guest:Ever.
Guest:And do you know how many times when they talk about, oh, you throw like a grandmother.
Guest:Do they ever use the word grandfather?
Guest:Never.
Guest:I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've been interviewed even for this book.
Guest:Oh, you know, I was out in the, you know, I was talking, I was out in the yard and, you know, I'm thrown like my grandmother.
Guest:They didn't say my grandfather.
Guest:It's a guy.
Guest:But yet they use woman as a derogatory thing instead of their grandfather.
Guest:I mean, you can hear it day in and day out as you go through the day.
Guest:Tomboy.
Guest:How are we...
Marc:And then also on the other side of that, Billy, it seems that, you know, when when women do succeed and do amazing things athletically, then they start comparing them to men where they should just be.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You just you're just being yourself and you're a human being doing a competitive job.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And the men can beat us.
Guest:We've always said the men can beat us.
Guest:But we're just as entertaining.
Guest:And sometimes we're more entertaining.
Guest:Sometimes they're more entertaining.
Guest:But we're all entertainers.
Guest:But women, there's no way the top women can beat the top men.
Guest:We never, ever once claim we have.
Guest:The men keep bringing it up saying, oh, you think you're better than we are.
Guest:No, we don't.
Guest:Find where we ever said that.
Guest:We've never said it.
Guest:We've never said we're better.
Guest:We've always said the top guys will always be the top women.
Guest:Next.
Marc:Yeah, we just want our place in the world.
Guest:Well, it depends what it is.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Marc:I start talking to people like in the arts about, you know, that there's so many kind of white men who are threatened by diversity because they think they're being pushed out.
Marc:But the truth of the matter is the field is just more competitive and more voices are included.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But we were never in.
Guest:That's what they don't – but they wanted to keep staying that way.
Guest:It's not right.
Guest:It's not just about girls either.
Guest:We're talking about people of color.
Guest:We're talking about people living with disabilities.
Guest:We're talking about everything.
Guest:No, but it's so – I get so – you can tell I get a little –
Marc:Of course, because it's ongoing.
Marc:It never ends.
Guest:I can go through a day.
Guest:Every day I can point out stuff all day long.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:But let me ask you something, though.
Marc:I was wondering, isn't it amazing to you when you look back, the idea that a cigarette company was the primary benefactor that changed everything and changed your life?
Guest:Oh, yeah, because when Gladys Hellman, who was our leader, there's nine of us that signed a one dollar contract with Gladys Hellman in 1970.
Marc:That was the original nine.
Guest:The original nine is the essence of.
Guest:of so many things and why things are so relevant today.
Guest:Like when a woman athlete, particularly a woman tennis player, gets a check, it's because of that moment in time when we're willing to give up our entire careers for the future generations.
Guest:And there are three elements.
Guest:That any girl born in this world, if she's good enough, would have a place to compete.
Guest:Number two, that she'd be appreciated for her accomplishments, not only her looks.
Guest:And number three, to be able to make a living playing tennis.
Guest:You know, her sport.
Guest:You know, our sport.
Marc:This was the manifesto of the original nine?
Guest:This is it.
Guest:We've said and talked about this a long time.
Guest:I said to them, if you expect to make a lot of money, you expect a lot of applause, you expect a lot of appreciation for this, don't do it.
Guest:Do it because we know it's the right thing to do.
Guest:And so we did it, and we got suspended, and then we didn't get – I mean, it was – you don't want to know.
Guest:Every minute things were changing.
Guest:But that was the moment where it's the birth of women's professional tennis the way you know it today.
Guest:So when you see Osaka make $55 million –
Guest:That's the reason she's able to make that money and why we're able to grow the sport and why we're number one in women's sports as far as financially.
Guest:It's because of that moment in time in 1970.
Guest:And that's why I try to tell kids and people that it's really important to know your history because not only do you know about yourself more, you know how to shape the future because everyone is an influencer.
Guest:Every single person is an influencer.
Guest:Especially now.
Guest:You don't know, especially now with social media.
Guest:Correct.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you can mobilize faster.
Guest:You can.
Guest:Oh, my gosh.
Guest:Things are just speeding.
Marc:How did the relationship with Virginia Swims?
Guest:What was that?
Guest:Gladys Hellman comes up to me and says, oh, I got us a sponsor.
Guest:Virginia Slims.
Guest:And I go, Gladys, we're athletes.
Guest:We can't do that.
Guest:She says, well, you signed a dollar contract with me, which is my fault because I told her to sign us for a dollar because she said I can't afford a lot of money.
Guest:I said, just sign us for a dollar.
Guest:It's just as binding as a trillion dollars.
Guest:And she was an agent?
Guest:She was a publisher of World Tennis Magazine.
Guest:And Larry and all of us wanted to get to her because owning a magazine meant advertising, right?
Guest:And advertising meant she probably knew a lot of CEOs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that is correct.
Guest:So she's the one that had a relationship with, you know, a friendship with Joseph Coleman.
Guest:He used to be he was the CEO chairman of Philip Morris.
Guest:And he believed in women and believed in women's tennis.
Guest:And this Virginia Slims all of a sudden couldn't be on television commercials.
Guest:Right.
Guest:In fact, the last one was.
Guest:1970, I think December 31st on the Johnny Carson show.
Guest:And so 71, guess what?
Guest:They've got all this money they've been spending on television commercials.
Guest:And now they can spend it on us.
Guest:I had a hard time with that.
Guest:But Gladys said, I'm your boss.
Guest:Didn't you sign the $1 contract?
Guest:I said, I sure did.
Guest:She says, well, are you going to let me do this or not?
Guest:And I said, you're the boss.
Guest:I'll do whatever you want.
Guest:So that's how that worked.
Guest:And even after they weren't our sponsor, all those different people would help us in trying to shape the future of our sport.
Guest:So I'm always indebted to them.
Guest:We called them Uncle Joe because without him and without the company.
Guest:And I must say, working with them, they had the most integrity of any company I've ever worked with.
Guest:Philip Morris?
Guest:Yeah, they were amazing.
Guest:So I'm like...
Guest:You never know, right?
Guest:You never know what's going to evolve.
Marc:The irony of it, that with his support and with even the corporate relationship with Philip Morris, that the one thing that was going to put women on the map in terms of beginning to earn what they deserve was literally a company that killed them.
Guest:Hey, I hear you.
Guest:No, I hear you.
Guest:It was not easy for me.
Guest:But I also couldn't think just about myself.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, I know.
Marc:I mean, it was like that's that.
Marc:But that's understanding the nature of politics.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But that's also leadership.
Marc:You have to not got to make decisions.
Guest:Yeah, it was rough.
Guest:I must say it was rough because I don't smoke.
Guest:So I never smoke.
Guest:My parent, my dad, my dad, life coach said, you know, if you're going to be an athlete, you don't drink or smoke.
Marc:And did he smoke or drink?
Guest:No, they didn't really drink.
Guest:They had maybe one cocktail.
Guest:They went out dancing, which was once a year.
Guest:And then because Randy and I would say, go out and dance.
Guest:Because we love to watch them dance.
Guest:They're really good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then my dad would smoke a cigar, but not really smoke it when he was out doing watering the lawn.
Guest:But he would never.
Guest:But kind of a fake smoke thing.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:But he did chew tobacco.
Guest:Did he?
Guest:For a while.
Guest:It was so gross.
Guest:I said, Daddy, I don't want to be around it.
Guest:Gross, gross.
Guest:Can't stand it.
Guest:Spitting it all the time.
Guest:So anyway, that's baseball.
Guest:You know, he was a baseball scout for a while.
Guest:My dad was for the Brewers.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:We all love basketball first.
Guest:Did you hear basketball any place in here?
Guest:There was nothing for girls in basketball when I was young.
Guest:Nothing.
Marc:And you had to chew tobacco.
Marc:If you're involved with baseball, you had to chew tobacco.
Guest:I know you had to, right?
Guest:Oh, it's gross.
Guest:You get cancer of the tongue, the esophagus.
Guest:It's terrible.
Marc:It's all bad.
Marc:So now, like, I...
Marc:Well, obviously, your sort of public birth into being out was difficult and jarring, I imagine.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:I mean, how long did it really take you to sort of find peace with that?
Marc:What was it that transitioned into something that you were able to be proud of?
Guest:I think therapy helped me the most, and I went to an eating disorder place.
Marc:Yeah, an eating disorder too, huh?
Guest:Oh, yeah, but that was part of it.
Guest:I mean, they all go hand in hand a lot.
Marc:That's like a control issue, right?
Guest:Eating disorders are a distortion issue.
Guest:disorder because anorexics look in the mirror, which I'm not.
Guest:I'm a binge eater and I don't urge, so I get fat.
Guest:I was at Renfrew in Philadelphia for five to six weeks, lived there with most of them were teenagers and had anorexia nervosa.
Guest:And I used to sit across from them.
Guest:And they would brag if they had lost a quarter of a pound.
Guest:They're very competitive.
Guest:All of us are pretty much
Guest:Most of the kids do pretty well in school.
Guest:I was the oldest one there.
Guest:It's all the same stuff, though.
Guest:All the eating disorders are about emotion, but it's manifested differently.
Guest:Some people feel like they have no control at all in life.
Guest:So the one area that I've listened to with anorexic kids, people, is that they can have control over this.
Guest:This is the one thing they control in their life.
Guest:Everything else in their life they feel is out of control.
Guest:So they hang on to this.
Guest:Binge eaters, which I know myself, what I did is I ate to push my emotions down to the bottom as far as I could get them down to the bottom of my stomach so I wouldn't feel.
Guest:And I'd feel numb the way somebody who drinks too much feels numb.
Guest:We're trying to numb the pain.
Guest:So that's the way I coped.
Guest:Everyone has their different choice of...
Guest:Agony, whatever.
Marc:Yeah, I have eating issues.
Marc:Do you have eating issues?
Marc:I do.
Marc:My mother was anorexic.
Marc:So I was brought up with this idea that I was unacceptable if I was chubby.
Marc:And it's the deepest issue I have.
Marc:I can't shake it.
Marc:I have body dysmorphia and I'm nuts.
Marc:And it's difficult, but I've learned to live with it.
Marc:And I stay healthy and I eat, but it's not like an hour goes by where I don't think about it.
Guest:I'm I same with me and I wake up every morning and I say I have an eating disorder just like I would say if I were an alcoholic I am an alcoholic because I find that when I own it it does help me it's when I try to push it away that I do worse for me everyone's different but for me that's what helps me the most I just accept it I take ownership of it I think about food constantly I every time I'm gonna go eat I go oh god I have to think about this again
Guest:And I love food.
Guest:I mean, I love it.
Guest:I love to eat it.
Guest:I love the taste.
Guest:I love it.
Marc:I did it last night.
Marc:Last night I did it.
Marc:I just went nuts.
Guest:What's the thing you really, I mean, I don't have anything.
Marc:For me, it's ice cream.
Marc:But last night I just ate an entire rotisserie chicken with hummus and bread.
Guest:Excellent.
Guest:Was it delish?
Marc:Yeah, it was, but about a third of the way through, I was like, I don't know if I'm ever going to be able to eat this again.
Guest:Well, I'll tell you what, let's check in maybe in a week or so.
Guest:We'll see how the chicken is going, if you can still eat it or not.
Guest:How's that?
Guest:No, but it's really hard.
Guest:It's painful.
Guest:It's horrible.
Guest:How long was it?
Marc:You had it all your life?
Guest:I think, yeah, in therapy, you know, they ask you about when you remember the first time and feeling feelings.
Guest:I'd say 11, you know, and usually for girls it's around puberty and that's me.
Marc:So was it directly connected with you knowing that you were attracted to women?
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:I didn't know that at all.
Guest:Not until I was in my 20s or late teens.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Late teens or 20s.
Guest:Well, 50%, I don't know if this is still true.
Guest:It used to be.
Guest:50% of kids, people know if they're gay or...
Guest:if they want to be a transgender girl or boy or something, 50% before you're 18, before I'm 18, and 50% after you're 18.
Guest:Now, I don't know, that probably has shifted now because of the way society views us and views me.
Guest:So I would think maybe more than 50% before 18.
Guest:But before 18, no idea.
Yeah.
Guest:When I walk in the room, I saw Larry across the room.
Guest:I'm like, yeah, baby.
Guest:He's the one.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, no, no.
Marc:And you guys had a good time for the time you were together?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Oh, I love that.
Guest:And, you know, Lana and I are the godmothers of his children and Nancy's his and Nancy's children.
Marc:And oh, yeah, it's such it's like the evolution of your identity is is actually a great story.
Marc:And it doesn't always go that way.
Guest:You know, no, it doesn't.
Guest:It can be.
Guest:It's been difficult.
Guest:People say what's the most difficult part of my journey.
Guest:I'd say my sexuality.
Marc:Really?
Marc:That's my eating.
Guest:Like the big chicken over there.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:When you talk like that, I get that.
Guest:I get it.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I do it, too.
Marc:I don't know that I ever thought of it as stuffing my feelings, but it's probably that.
Marc:I just, you know, it makes perfect sense.
Guest:Have you ever gotten anybody to talk about it?
Marc:Not I not.
Marc:It's odd.
Marc:I haven't gone to anybody to talk about that specifically in a deep way, but I have talked about it, but it really is.
Marc:And, you know, I'm sober 22 years.
Marc:So like, but that's still my deepest issue is that food thing, man.
Guest:And, you know, so you've been sober for how many years?
Marc:22 years.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Good for you.
Marc:Yeah, you know, that's okay.
Guest:How did you do that, though?
Marc:You know, the way you do it with the meetings.
Marc:You go to the secret society.
Guest:Oh, so did you go to AA?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, wow, that's good.
Guest:I'm into some general AA meetings.
Guest:Actually, Elton John took me to one.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, they have open house on Christmas Day in England for AA.
Guest:You can bring somebody.
Guest:Yeah, I went with them.
Guest:It was amazing.
Marc:How's he doing?
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:He's doing great.
Guest:We just stayed with him and David and the boys, I don't know, a few weeks ago.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, it was good to see him because with COVID, we haven't been able to see him as much.
Guest:And we talk and send notes, but not the same as being with him.
Guest:And the boys are growing up.
Guest:Oh, my God, Zach and Elijah.
Guest:It's really adorable.
Guest:But no, Elton's getting ready to go back out on the road with his farewell tour if he can get going.
Yeah.
Guest:And then, you know, he really, he really, I'm, I'm very excited because I think in 22, he's going to do his last farewell tour, which I doubt will really happen.
Guest:But he, but at Dodger stadium, you know, he, he did Dodger stadium in 90 and 75.
Guest:And for a couple of days, it was just amazing.
Guest:I was there with him and it was just amazing experience.
Marc:He must love it.
Marc:These guys must love it to keep doing it.
Marc:I mean, I don't, you know,
Guest:I mean, the trouble with being a jock or an athlete is you better do it when you're young because you're not going to get a second chance like musicians or stand-ups like you.
Marc:You can't keep doing a farewell tour every few years.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Why not?
Guest:Whatever they want.
Marc:As an athlete, you can't.
Guest:No, you cannot.
Guest:So, you know, people say, well, you know, you can keep playing.
Guest:And I go, I'm not Frank Sinatra and I can't sing with my knees because my knees were, I had knee operations.
Guest:I go, you guys, I don't think I can sing with my knees.
Guest:So I think that's out.
Marc:What about, I just want to know to get back on it.
Marc:What about the identity struggle made it the worst thing?
Marc:Was it that because you judged yourself that you didn't want to be or what?
Guest:It's very shame-based.
Guest:I mean, my parents are homophobic.
Guest:I grew up homophobic, probably, and I'm sure I did.
Guest:And just coming to grips with it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And the eating is definitely related to it.
Guest:So I have to, oh, God, I'm constantly, the eating is the only thing I have, I don't have to worry about my identity anymore.
Guest:I'm very comfortable with that now.
Guest:That's good.
Guest:Even though occasionally I get a little stomach ugh sometimes, depending upon where I am and the situation I'm in.
Marc:But also, when I really think about what's going on with gender and sexuality now, that you were right there with Dr. Renee Richards at really one of the first kind of cultural moments around trans people and what rights they have.
Guest:Yes, it was a real privilege to get to know her, and she's still in our life as one of our friends, and she's our ophthalmologist, although she's retiring, so she's only working one day a week, and she's in her 80s.
Guest:But Ilana...
Guest:My partner in life, wife, whatever.
Guest:I've said partner for so many years.
Guest:It's weird to say wife, but she's my wife.
Guest:That Ilana was the number one player in the world in doubles.
Guest:Ilana played Renee as a male and then as a female.
Guest:Because Renee said to me one day,
Guest:There's only one person who's beaten me as a male and a female.
Guest:And I bet you don't know who that is.
Guest:I said, oh, yes, I do.
Guest:It's Ilana.
Guest:And she starts cracking up.
Guest:Yeah, you do know.
Marc:Do you find that do you think that like that sports in and of itself is still pretty homophobic?
Guest:I think men have a lot harder time now than women.
Guest:But no, I think it's gotten much better, particularly in women's sports, but men's sports.
Guest:What's the guy's name?
Guest:Carl Nazib?
Guest:Is it with the Rays?
Guest:He came out and everyone supported him?
Guest:We need more men like that to come out.
Guest:But we also need the quarterbacks of these teams.
Guest:I get upset.
Guest:Like a couple of linemen said they support him and the association supports him, you know, the players association.
Guest:But I want to hear the quarterbacks of those teams because a quarterback is considered the leader of a team.
Guest:And we need the quarterbacks to step up and say, I'm for this guy.
Guest:He's part of our team.
Guest:It's just like what Bill Russell said years ago.
Guest:Leslie Visser, a great writer, was telling me that... And this is way back in the 60s and 70s, and they asked Bill Russell about it.
Guest:And he said, well, can they shoot?
Guest:That's all he cared about, which is exactly the way we should think about it.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:But you do need someone to step up, not unlike you did with Dr. Richards.
Guest:You've got to step up, right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the interesting thing now, from what I understand, within...
Guest:women's within the feminist community is is it's still a sort of kind of evolving uh issue around acceptance of trans athletes is that true trans athletes is going through yes they're going through a lot because some people think they shouldn't be able to participate and this is an ongoing thing my what i want is that everyone have a chance to compete or play so we got to figure this out um
Guest:Everyone keeps just pointing to testosterone, but the more I talk to scientists that are in this, that study this area, it's just not that simple.
Guest:You metabolize.
Guest:Every human being metabolizes it differently.
Guest:There's been two guys, for instance, that if you measure their testosterone, they would be considered feminine, but they won two gold medals in men's.
Guest:I mean, these are guys that they've been measured.
Guest:And no one's ever heard about them, but I know of these things because I listen to the scientists.
Guest:And
Guest:I don't think it's that easy.
Guest:But bottom line, we're going to have to figure it out.
Guest:It's not cut and dry.
Guest:So I think we need to keep listening to the scientists as they keep studying this thoroughly.
Guest:But bottom line, I want every human being to have a chance to compete and play, just like the Paralympians.
Marc:And the Paralympians... As the human beings that they want to be.
Guest:Correct.
Guest:So that's what I... Just Billie Jean King.
Guest:Some of the athletes think that I'm out to lunch and I'm wrong and they shouldn't be allowed to compete.
Guest:Martina Navratilova is one of them.
Marc:She thinks you're wrong?
Guest:She thinks I'm totally wrong.
Guest:And we've had a discussion.
Guest:I said, Martina, you may be right.
Guest:And I totally hear you.
Guest:I appreciate what you say.
Guest:But all I want personally for me, Billie Jean King...
Guest:And I think the Women's Sports Foundation probably is that we want everyone to have a chance to play and compete.
Guest:So we've got to figure out the answer.
Marc:How does it make you feel when you see, like Simone Biles, that people are publicly being open about the mental strain and emotional strain and stress of being professional athletes?
Guest:I think it's good.
Guest:I think it's brave.
Guest:I think it took a lot of courage.
Guest:I also think she cared about the team to make sure they were going to meddle because if she stayed in it, they were not going to.
Guest:So I thought that was a great leadership moment for her.
Guest:I think it's good when we hear their truth, but I think we need to do a better job of like rookie school where we teach and tell them what it takes to be
Guest:professional athlete but remember the gymnast they were very abused by their doctor remember Dr. Nassar so that is so traumatic and when you get under any kind of stress like of course the competition in the Olympics is that alone can be a trigger to
Guest:That's going to set you off into mental challenges and emotional challenges.
Guest:So with gymnastics, there are so many of those women who were abused by this horrible doctor, Dr. Nassar.
Guest:So I think...
Marc:As big an issue as the Catholic Church.
Marc:I mean, that was out of control.
Marc:It was crazy.
Guest:You know, another place we think it's out of control, I'm not sure yet, is cheerleading.
Guest:So we need to really get in there and investigate that area as well.
Guest:I'm just starting to hear rumbles, and a lot of people are starting to come to me in the last two or three weeks saying, if you think that gymnastics are bad, this cheerleading is terrible.
Guest:So we've got to really pay attention to predators and people who are inappropriate.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I think also, like, you know, getting back to, you know, people, you know, and identity.
Marc:And it's just that it seems to me that especially with Dr. Richards, that, you know, when people meet people, you know, outside of the way they think about.
Marc:the idea or the issue, you know, something shifts.
Marc:And I think there's a lot of distance between people's ideas of what's right and wrong and who people are and who they actually are.
Marc:And I think that you, by stepping into that with Renee Richards, you know, you gave the culture the opportunity to see her as a human and not an idea or a moral problem.
Guest:Well, that's interesting you say it because the women didn't want her when they first heard about her coming on.
Guest:They were like crazed.
Guest:What about the locker room?
Guest:What about this?
Guest:I go, everybody, calm down.
Guest:I'm going to go talk to doctors.
Guest:You can do the same.
Guest:And then I'm going to call Renee.
Guest:And I went and talked to doctors.
Guest:I did call Renee.
Guest:Renee and I had a four-hour meeting, and I listened to her stories.
Guest:And I went to the doctors, and I said, is she considered a woman or not?
Guest:And they said, yes, she is.
Guest:I said, that's all I need to know.
Guest:Went back to the women, and they're like up in arms.
Guest:And I said, okay, I was going to ask you to do one thing.
Guest:I want you to accept her for at least two weeks on the tour, okay?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they all kind of calmed down, and they said, okay, that's fair enough.
Guest:Within two days of Renee being on the tour, all the women were coming to me.
Guest:She is so nice.
Guest:She's the greatest.
Guest:And to your point, what you just talked about is how you look at people differently once you get to know them.
Mm-hmm.
Guest:And once the players, our players got to know her, then they just love her.
Guest:That was it.
Guest:Done.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:Now, last question.
Marc:How are you treated by these new champions, like the Williams sisters in particular?
Guest:I've known them since, this is scary, 1988 when they were seven and eight years old.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Actually, in the book, there's a photo.
Guest:photos of them we found them you cannot believe this took three years we found these photos yeah and i kept saying the long beach uh... press telegraph was there that day they have to it was long beach california where i'm from and they live nearby yeah and that's the day i met them when they're seven eight so i have known them for since then they're wonderful uh... they were on the fed cup teams i was captain which is the world cup teams uh... of tennis from women's tennis
Guest:So I got to know them pretty well.
Guest:And Venus stepped up for equal prize money in 2005.
Guest:We got equal prize money with the majors in 07.
Guest:And she actually won Wimbledon in 07.
Guest:It was absolutely perfect that Venus won Wimbledon.
Guest:in 2007 to celebrate equal prize money in all four majors.
Guest:And she was the front person for the players at that time.
Guest:We needed someone current.
Guest:And she was the one.
Guest:And then Serena has always fought for women's issues and equality and also particularly, obviously, women of color.
Guest:She and her husband are doing unbelievable investments in business.
Marc:um i'm really lucky to know these two kids not to me they're always kids but i'm to know them and to see how they've uh excelled you know and also a life after tennis they're going to be amazing you've really uh you've been a major influence on on so much of uh the the the fights that you know were hard won and still go on but uh you know it's a real honor talking to you
Guest:It's great talking to you, Mark.
Guest:And, you know, I've seen you through the years on the night shows.
Guest:So anyway, and this is going great, huh?
Marc:Yeah, I'm doing all right.
Marc:I'm doing okay.
Marc:I just got to learn.
Marc:I got to learn how to play tennis.
Marc:That's what I need to learn.
Guest:Well, why don't you get Craig out there, your brother?
Marc:I know.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I got to get him out.
Guest:He'll teach you.
Guest:He'll hit the ball to you.
Guest:He can teach it to you.
Guest:Maybe he'll start having fun again with it.
Marc:That's a good idea.
Marc:He likes his pickle.
Marc:The pickleball is where he's at.
Guest:Let's find pickleball and go play pickleball.
Guest:Whatever works for anybody.
Guest:What makes them happy.
Guest:All the racket sports are amazing sports for people.
Guest:Tennis has been voted the number one healthiest sport in swimming.
Marc:Okay, those are the two top ones.
Marc:I'm going to do it.
Marc:I'm going to play some more tennis.
Guest:All right.
Guest:To be continued.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:Thank you.
Guest:Bye-bye.
Marc:Billie Jean King, again, the book, all in.
Marc:An autobiography is available now wherever you get books.
Marc:Now, let me play some, I don't know.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I'm just going to plunk around.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Guest:Boomer lives.
Marc:La Fonda.
Marc:Monkey.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere, man.