Episode 1251 - Tom McCarthy
Marc:Lock the gates!
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it how's it going are you guys okay what did you do this weekend did you are you are you out there dodging the delta wait for the omega wait for the omega it's gonna burn your face off
Marc:I was out.
Marc:I was out in the world.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Marc:I don't mean to make light, but sometimes what I do today on the show, I talked to Tom McCarthy.
Marc:All right.
Marc:He you know his work.
Marc:He just I just saw Stillwater.
Marc:And I really enjoyed the writing, which he did as well, and directing.
Marc:That was great.
Marc:I also loved his movie Spotlight.
Marc:He's a Jersey guy.
Marc:He began working, doing sketch comedy in college.
Marc:He's an actor.
Marc:And all around interesting guy.
Marc:Also a friend of Lynn Shelton's, which I didn't fully realize until he mentioned it.
Marc:He also directed The Station Agent.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And The Visitor and Win Win.
Marc:And I believe he co-wrote Up.
Marc:Dude's a talented dude.
Marc:I will get into what went down around this booking a little bit more before the interview because he was booked and there was some online controversy about the movie Stillwater and then suddenly he wasn't booked and then he was rebooked.
Marc:But I'll talk about that in a second.
Marc:Let's talk about Denver, Denver, Colorado.
Marc:So.
Marc:I've had some thoughts.
Marc:All right.
Marc:As many of you know, about a week after the comedy store opened, I started back up.
Marc:I started going at it, getting, you know, getting strong again, getting my my muscle memory back, getting my chops together, getting my calluses back.
Marc:for doing the stand-up comedy at the nightclubs.
Marc:And then I did four shows over the course of four Thursdays in July at Dynasty Typewriter.
Marc:So once I got my calluses back, I just started doing the big riffs, big riffing, hour 20, hour 25, working through the new material, the new thoughts, the pain, the glory, the confusion, all of it, dumping it into the big hour riffs.
Marc:And then like as per how I was trained as to how as per how I came up, you know, when you got the shit going, how do you test it out?
Marc:Well, you got to go to a comedy club.
Marc:Look, man, comedy clubs honestly are still the best place to see stand up comedy.
Marc:You know, once we polish it and it gets to a theater, it's a different thing.
Marc:There's no frenzy.
Marc:It's a set piece for the most part.
Marc:I leave a little room for a little riffing, but for the most part, when you're out of theater, you want to present the good thing, the whole thing, the polished thing, the thing as it comes together.
Marc:In the clubs, sometimes you don't know what the fuck is going to happen.
Marc:You're trying to sequence it, order it, add new shit.
Marc:But I got to be honest with you, man, I hadn't been at a comedy club in a while, over a year.
Marc:Now, this has always been the way I've done it, man.
Marc:You know, work it out in the clubs.
Marc:And since I've been able to do theaters, take it to the theater.
Marc:And sometimes you work out more in the theater, but mostly...
Marc:It's in the trenches, you know, and I had some feelings.
Marc:I had some feelings, man.
Marc:I spiraled a bit after my Thursday show.
Marc:So I get to Denver on Thursday.
Marc:I get to Denver on Thursday.
Marc:I rent a car because I'm planning on going to do a little record shopping.
Marc:I'm just trying to get back to normal, even with the Delta variant ripping through the world.
Marc:And Colorado has no mask mandates.
Marc:And it's sort of a free for all.
Marc:But I mean, I think they're pretty low in cases and they do all right.
Marc:It's kind of an outdoorsy state.
Marc:Everybody's not up each other's ass.
Marc:But nonetheless, I didn't check the Vax level, but I have required vaccine only shows that you need Vax proof to get in.
Marc:I'm doing that at most of my upcoming dates that I have on the books.
Marc:I'll be at I'll be in Phoenix at Stand Up Live.
Marc:This Thursday and Friday, those shows are Vax only.
Marc:I'll be in Salt Lake City, I believe, the week after at Wise Guys.
Marc:Those shows are also Vax only, and that was the only place where it seemed like there was a significant bit of refunds, but we're going forward.
Marc:That's the way it's going to be.
Marc:At Helium in St.
Marc:Louis in September, we're requesting Vax only.
Marc:Comedy Attic in Bloomington in October, Vax only.
Marc:All of them, upcoming shows and whatever ones I do in the near future are going to be Vax only.
Marc:And again, you can have your feelings.
Marc:You can be like, that's authoritarian liberalism.
Marc:That's a tyranny.
Marc:This is the end of democracy.
Marc:The Vax passport.
Marc:OK, well, I'm going inside.
Marc:Are you going to wait out here?
Marc:Go home?
Marc:What are you going to do?
Marc:It's a public health issue.
Marc:It's not a authoritarian device.
Marc:If people can't be adults around this, what can I tell you?
Marc:My audience mostly vaxxed and didn't diminish the Denver shows at all.
Marc:All of them sold out.
Marc:And it just makes my audience more comfortable for the most part.
Marc:So that's the way it's going to be.
Marc:So Thursday, I go up on stage in Denver at the Comedy Works.
Marc:Sam Talent opens for me, does a bombastic opening set.
Marc:And I get out there and I work through my stuff.
Marc:The audience is great, mostly my people, but it felt a little choppy, a little fragmented.
Marc:It was a good show.
Marc:But when I left, I'm like, fuck, man.
Marc:man.
Marc:Am I cut out for this anymore?
Marc:Can I fucking deal with this shit?
Marc:Now I'm going to do like late shows on Friday and Saturday.
Marc:I'm going to do two shows on Friday and Saturday.
Marc:I don't fucking need to do this anymore.
Marc:This is my inner monologue.
Marc:I'm not saying this to anybody but me.
Marc:I don't need to do this shit anymore.
Marc:I don't need to do comedy clubs, man.
Marc:I can just work this out in a more supportive space.
Marc:This is delicate business I'm doing, man.
Marc:I don't need to go out there and put myself, my heart on the line for a fucking drunky audience at 12 at
Marc:You know, at second show Friday, second show Saturday, like do the fucking crowd management business along with putting my heart on the line.
Marc:Man, why the fuck am I doing this to myself?
Marc:And I sat at this coffee shop called Crema and I spread out all my notes and I just started doing the work, man.
Marc:I started thinking, looking, ordering things in my head.
Marc:And, you know, as I spiraled and decided that I probably wasn't long for the comedy game, which is...
Marc:Obviously, part of my preparation, apparently didn't help that on Thursday night, the only place open for dinner was some Cajun place.
Marc:And because I was a little unhappy with my set, I decided to bury myself in fried food, which I never eat.
Marc:So then I can't sleep.
Marc:I'm burping up blackened spices.
Marc:I'm fucking rolling around in bed.
Marc:I got the sweats.
Marc:The altitude's fucking with me.
Marc:I can barely breathe.
Marc:My brain's not working right.
Marc:The next day, just spiraling.
Marc:Getting out of the business, just going to fall into a pit of self, top it with some ice cream and call it a fucking career.
Marc:You know what I'm saying?
Marc:And then God damn it, man.
Marc:I go back to the club Friday first show fucking locked in order sequence.
Marc:Good callbacks working all the delicate stuff, the heavy hearted business, the pushing back the sad bits worked.
Marc:I'm feeling like I'm in the fucking pocket.
Marc:I got a real groove going, and the only way to test fucking comedy jokes is to do them at a real comedy club for a mixed crowd.
Marc:I would say it was mostly my audience, but there was other people in there just seeing if the shit lands, seeing if you can fucking land these bits, and they were fucking landing, man.
Marc:They were landing like goddamn...
Marc:Parachute people just sort of slowly coming down and just a little plunk on the bottom.
Marc:You pull the chute down and, man, little tears coming at the corner of your eyes, little Laffy Laffy.
Marc:You know what I'm saying?
Marc:Saturday Night Shows.
Marc:Get back in it.
Marc:Adam Caden Holland opens for me.
Marc:Brent Gill.
Marc:Opened for me on Friday.
Marc:He did a good job.
Marc:Adam, I've worked with before.
Marc:Smart guy.
Marc:He does the opening.
Marc:I go out fucking Saturday first show, working the shit out, kind of tweaking the order, taking out the bits that weren't quite working or working them out so they work better, landing that shit again.
Marc:Saturday second show was the one I was worried about.
Marc:But great fucking crowd.
Marc:I fucking love doing comedy clubs.
Marc:I went from Thursday, I got to quit and I'm just going to allow myself to become an obese person and live in shame to this is what I do, man.
Marc:This is what I fucking do.
Marc:So I drove to the airport, got on a plane, typed up my little dispatch for the week, landed in Burbank, got in my car, was back home in 24 minutes.
Marc:Got in the house, said hi to the cats, did a home COVID test.
Marc:Negative.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Thank you very much.
Marc:I earned it.
Marc:Then I got on the mic here and I'm going to go to the premiere of Respect soon.
Marc:But that'll be yesterday by the time you hear this.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So listen, folks, Tom McCarthy is my guest today.
Marc:And.
Marc:Right off the bat here at the beginning of this interview, we talk about the the Amanda Knox thing.
Marc:Now, for those of you who don't know, a couple of weeks ago, Tom did an interview with Vanity Fair and they asked him they asked him, you know, if if the movie was inspired by Amanda Knox's false conviction and imprisonment in Italy.
Marc:And Tom talked about how some aspects of that true story inspired him in thinking about the script for Stillwater, which is not that story.
Marc:It's not her story.
Marc:When the article came out, it, you know, in a clickbaity way, it really played up that aspect of the interview, making it the headline of the piece and talking about it being inspired by the Amanda Knox saga, quote unquote.
Marc:And then, you know, understandably, Amanda Knox herself had a very negative reaction to that piece.
Marc:And she wrote a series of tweets explaining why she felt the promotion of the movie in this interview was exploiting her right down to the magazine, calling her real life ordeal a saga, a quote unquote saga.
Marc:It's definitely worth reading her tweets about it.
Marc:And I would I would suggest you do that.
Marc:Well, when all that went down, suddenly our interview with Tom got canceled, which we just figured was because they didn't want him doing any more publicity about the film because of this swirling buzz.
Marc:But within a couple hours, we got notified that it was back on and that Tom specifically pushed to have the interview on canceled.
Marc:to uncancel the interview.
Marc:So that's really where we enter this conversation.
Marc:It's the first thing we talk about here at the beginning of this talk.
Marc:And we got right into the idea of what inspired the movie and whether or not the film is exploiting a real life situation.
Marc:So you can decide for yourself because you can see Stillwater in theaters now.
Marc:And this is me talking to Tom McCarthy.
Marc:I'm happy you did this.
Marc:You canceled and then you're back.
Guest:Did I officially cancel?
Marc:Yeah, it was officially canceled.
Marc:I'm like, what happened?
Marc:And then it's like, no, he's coming.
Marc:What happened?
Guest:That sounds like how I plan everything in my life.
Guest:It literally sounds like everything in my life.
Marc:Was there a reason?
Marc:Was there panic?
Guest:There was no panic about this.
Guest:I mean, I don't stand and get nervous about doing things when I actually like.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But there was more.
Guest:I didn't know I was going to stay till Monday.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:It's been driving this, you know, releasing TV and I was like, maybe I just want to get back to New York.
Guest:And then I was like, no, let's stay and do it.
Guest:That was the decision?
Guest:So it's all personal?
Guest:You know what it was?
Guest:You know what the tipping point was?
Guest:My longtime editor, Tom McArdle, he somehow caught wind that I was going to do it.
Guest:I think he heard Matt's interview and you mentioned it.
Guest:And so he shot me an email.
Guest:It's like, you got to do that, right?
Marc:Right.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think he was maybe the first person who mentioned your podcast to me.
Marc:Oh, yeah, because I had made this assumption.
Marc:I'm like, oh, shit.
Marc:What is happening?
Marc:Is there panic at the studio?
Guest:It's all me.
Marc:All me.
Marc:I thought it had something to do with the Amanda Knox tweets.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:We don't need to dwell on that, but that was my assumption.
Marc:It's sort of like, here's what I do.
Marc:The studio said this is...
Marc:Oh, God, no.
Marc:You've got to do some damage control.
Marc:But it's an interesting topic about inspiration, you know, and the difference between, you know, inspiration, life story, and also the difference between sort of like art and life.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:What was your reaction to that?
Guest:Just that, like sort of analyzing that a little bit.
Guest:Like, look, you know, first of all...
Guest:I really empathize with her feelings and the circumstances around all that.
Guest:It's tragic and horrible and traumatic.
Guest:But Stillwater's a work of fiction, like that's it.
Guest:And I think with everything in my life, I'm pulling sort of magpying, as you are, as we all are, from different creative things.
Guest:So one of the biggest inspirations for this was a conversation I had with a relative of mine whose father...
Guest:Like really struggled with addiction and there and I always knew it and I saw I finally said hey could we just do like three One-hour phone calls and you just lay out that relationship with me.
Guest:Yeah, and it was it was the most it was the deepest she ever went on it was like really beautiful her father yeah about her relationship with her father and how dysfunctional it was and what that meant and
Guest:It provided so much.
Guest:And I'm like, okay, that's the relationship I want to explore in this movie.
Guest:And so, you know, that was a big piece of this.
Guest:And then I would say, you know, of course, yeah, that story was sort of in the headlines a lot.
Guest:You know, her story in the headlines a lot when the trial was going on.
Guest:So that was a piece of like, oh, I like that relationship.
Guest:I like these two people, father and daughter, being in a cell together.
Guest:That was critical to me.
Guest:With great dysfunction and great pain.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then like another example would be like, I read this amazing book that dealt with like a psychologist from Berkeley who went to rural Louisiana and like embedded with Tea Party members and tried to understand them with empathy.
Guest:And it was like this incredible distillation of like their situation.
Guest:And I'm like, okay, this is 2016 when I re-engage with this script.
Guest:I had two French writers and I'm like, okay, this is at the heart of it.
Guest:Like we've got this woman in a cell.
Guest:We've got this, you know, father daughter, huge dysfunction.
Guest:And we've got this philosophy of a middle American that is so well articulated.
Guest:Let's try to unpack that.
Marc:Well, interesting thing about the film was that, you know, it is not a political film.
Marc:It's not a political character.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, and you make assumptions about it because I remember people were like calling it a Trumpy movie.
Marc:And I'm like, I didn't see that at all.
Marc:You know, like, you know, because that's the way, you know, a black and white tribal culture thinks that like they're willing to write off any character that wears a hat or those glasses as as being indicating something.
Marc:Whereas in the scene where it's addressed, which I thought was kind of great, where the French people were just like, we have to ask you.
Marc:And his answer, again, was sort of like, you don't really know how he feels because of what he's enabled to say in that moment.
Marc:And I don't want to ruin it for anybody.
Marc:But there was a lot of that going on in the film.
Marc:I talked to Matt about it.
Marc:Where the viewer, you don't even know what the fuck is happening for 15 minutes.
Marc:And I think that's a great thing and a testament to your writing.
Marc:And it must have been something that you had to craft fairly carefully.
Marc:Yeah, very much so.
Marc:It's sort of like, where are we going?
Marc:What's going on?
Marc:Who is this guy?
Marc:Who's that lady?
Marc:Where's the money coming from?
Guest:Why does he know Marseille?
Guest:Why does this guy travel to France?
Marc:Right.
Guest:And look, I'll say this about that.
Guest:When I re-approached the script, I started it 10 years ago, put it down, started from scratch in 2016, and I'd been to Marseille at that point about five or six times.
Guest:I knew Marseille.
Guest:Researching.
Guest:Yeah, just hanging out in the city, researching.
Marc:So this is your process with all movies?
Guest:It's very journalistic.
Guest:It's very journalistic.
Marc:But this is a work of fiction.
Marc:I mean, Spotlight was different.
Guest:Spotlight was different.
Guest:Spotlight, okay.
Guest:So going back to what you asked about what this is based on, Spotlight was a true story, right?
Guest:Based on real people.
Guest:When I do that, I engage them.
Guest:I know I'm writing about real people.
Guest:I'm going to tell their story.
Guest:I got to be factually accurate.
Guest:Spotlight was that.
Guest:This was fiction.
Guest:And the way I build that is like, so yeah, 10 years ago, hanging out in Marseille, learning the city.
Guest:But when I picked up this script in 2016, I realized I hadn't been to Oklahoma.
Guest:I said to my wife, I literally woke up one day, I'm like, oh my God, I know Marseille may be better than Oklahoma.
Guest:And I got off the plane there and you realize how big this country is, right?
Guest:Because I got off the plane, I'm like, I don't know this place at all, at all.
Guest:And I started setting up these interviews with Roughnecks and my assistant tracked down these Roughnecks.
Marc:How do we do that?
Marc:But I mean, it's like you set up interviews with Roughnecks.
Marc:I'll tell you one thing, that's not something that happens in a Roughnecks wife every day.
Marc:No.
Marc:And I imagine it's not something that, you know, to have sort of a general kind of like, let's just, you know, get to know each other chat.
Marc:You know, I want to know what makes you guys tick.
Marc:It was kind of that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was literally.
Marc:How do you set those interviews up?
Marc:When they go, she go out to an oil field?
Guest:No, I set it up at a barbecue joint in a small town.
Guest:A barbecue joint.
Guest:Where they go.
Guest:We would just set up in these locations.
Guest:And I had met one or two oil rig workers, roughnecks.
Guest:And then what they would do was just call their friends and say, hey, man, go to this barbecue place at one o'clock and talk to this guy, Tom.
Guest:He's okay.
Marc:He's okay.
Guest:And they would sit with me and I would just have these interviews.
Guest:He's not out to fuck us.
Guest:No.
Guest:I'm sure even Matt mentioned it, but when I first started going there and just showing up,
Guest:They were a little reticent.
Guest:They didn't know.
Guest:I'm a director from Brooklyn.
Guest:It took them a little bit to open up, but by the time, four, five, six visits, and then I brought Matt, they started to feel me.
Marc:When they saw Matt, they were like, all right.
Guest:They were pretty good about it.
Marc:What was the interview?
Marc:How did it work?
Guest:Everyone was different because each one of these guys had a drastically different personality and come from really background.
Guest:Some of these guys were pretty broken and damaged.
Guest:Some of these guys really got their shit together.
Guest:You know, Roughnecks, just a background on these guys, like, they're an iconic, like, persona in Oklahoma.
Guest:And, like, most of them, a lot of them, at least, you know, going back a ways when Kenny Baker and Ryan and these guys who I was meeting with were breaking out, they didn't graduate high school, they got right to work.
Guest:You know, they did no interest in college.
Marc:And it's a very specific type of weird, challenging, dirty work.
Marc:Huge, hugely, hugely... Gotta have a truck.
Guest:Yeah, man, you gotta be strong.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You gotta be tough.
Guest:And by the way,
Guest:I think the one thing these guys pride most on themselves is their work ethic.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So these guys get out of high school, they get these jobs and they start working rigs.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And, you know, it's this culture and they make a lot of money and they live hard and they play hard and they work hard.
Guest:And some of them burn out.
Guest:A lot of them burn out.
Guest:A lot of them really struggle with a lot of things.
Guest:Drugs, drinking, addiction, you know, hard living.
Guest:And then some of them, like the guys we met, made it through.
Guest:So those are the guys we started talking to.
Guest:They set up these initial interviews and then I just sat and listened and sometimes it was really awkward Some of these guys felt awkward, you know, I'd order some barbecue I'd get him a coke right sit there and we'd chat and inevitably over time They would start telling me about marriages and work and and you know struggles and what their other jobs were in their Occupations and their brothers and losing people along the way.
Guest:Yeah, but it's but it's interesting I mean you come
Marc:I don't want to stereotype or seem insensitive, but I mean, you come from an Irish family and there was no alcoholism or- Oh yeah, sure.
Marc:Yeah, of course.
Marc:I'm sure there still is.
Marc:I mean, I'm sure I'm broke.
Marc:But I mean, you had to go to Oklahoma to find- Why that kind of- To explore the relationship of a child and a parent in terms of alcoholism and addiction and-
Guest:Again, it goes back to reference points for the movie.
Guest:Jumping off points.
Guest:You mentioned the prison thing.
Guest:And I knew I wanted to take someone from the middle of the country.
Guest:I literally just circled on the map Oklahoma.
Guest:And I liked the name of Stillwater.
Marc:I have been condescending in my life and recently about the Midwest.
Marc:And I've since talked to a director, John Schaub, from Oklahoma.
Marc:And now I just watched like four films by Sterling Harjo, who's a Native American.
Marc:I know him.
Marc:Good guy, great director.
Marc:Dude.
Marc:Like to see the Native American story and how that played out.
Marc:And Oklahoma is like ground zero for a lot of that stuff.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:And also that horrendous decimation of African-American people.
Marc:There's something about Oklahoma where I'm like, Oklahoma has to rise correctly for the rest of the country to repair itself.
Guest:Yeah, I think there's something in that.
Guest:I mean, it's a bit biblical and epic, but I think there's something in that.
Guest:And like, first of all, Sterling, I'm glad you're chatting with him.
Guest:He's a great guy.
Guest:Dude, those movies are great.
Guest:Really poetic.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Really beautiful and really soulful.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And something at the heart of this country.
Marc:Yeah, man.
Guest:I'm glad he's getting his voice.
Guest:He's got that new Showtime show coming out.
Marc:I'm waiting for the links.
Marc:But yeah, but the uniquely American experience...
Marc:Even though this is a white guy and sort of a juxtaposition to that culture that is in Oklahoma, it is sort of another type of kind of a post-Indigenous culture that's been in Oklahoma forever.
Marc:These guys, cowboys and whatnot.
Guest:Yep, yep.
Guest:Yeah, you know, I think so.
Guest:I think, look, there's definitely, we're taking a hero sort of stereotype.
Marc:But you didn't take Texas.
Marc:I like that you chose, like, because Texas is sort of established.
Marc:Oklahoma is a little like, but Oklahoma is like all about cowboys.
Marc:Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.
Guest:No, no, you're right.
Guest:And when you're talking cowboys, when you're talking Texas, you're talking American iconic hero on some level, right?
Guest:And that's kind of what roughnecks are in Oklahoma.
Marc:No, I think this is like, now that I'm talking to you about it, I'm going to go ahead and call Stillwater a Western.
Guest:I think there's a template of a Western in there for
Guest:For sure.
Guest:I mean, look, stranger arrives in a town, doesn't know anyone, daughter and Carol.
Guest:Goes to save, right.
Guest:Yeah, we just, and, you know, look, there's been a lot of talk about what is this movie, and some people have knocked it and been like, oh, it's a couple of different movies at once, and I'm like, absolutely.
Guest:Well, it is and it isn't, right?
Guest:Tone holds it all together, but, like, there's a number of storylines here.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:And I'll tell you, when I started working with these French writers, these guys are great.
Guest:Thomas Biddy again.
Marc:So how does that go?
Marc:So you know half this movie or most of this movie is going to take place in Marseille.
Marc:So out of respect, you're going to engage French writers and co-write with them because you don't know the culture or the language or what?
Guest:It was, I don't want to say worse than that, but it took me longer to get there.
Guest:What I did was started this first draft with a guy in New York City.
Guest:I didn't like it.
Guest:I didn't like the movie.
Guest:It was a straight up thriller.
Guest:Same conceit, same setup, but I didn't like the thriller.
Guest:And I was like, okay, I put it away for six years.
Marc:Your movie was turning into a thriller.
Marc:It was a thriller.
Marc:First draft 10 years ago.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Did you hear me ask Matt if, like I told him I thought this might be a franchise?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Could you see this guy bungling cases around the world?
Marc:Stillwater 2.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then when I picked it back up, I'm like, okay, it's lacking dimension.
Guest:It's lacking authenticity.
Guest:I need French writers.
Guest:Obviously, it's set in Marseille.
Guest:Started at the top of the food chain.
Guest:I love this director, Jacques Odiard.
Guest:I love his movies in Profit, Rust and Bone, a bunch of others.
Guest:And I said, who does he work with?
Guest:And I just reached out to these guys.
Guest:Email.
Guest:Just got their email.
Guest:Sent them email.
Guest:Said, here's a draft of a script.
Guest:I don't love it.
Guest:It's too much of a straight-up thriller.
Guest:I want to expand it.
Guest:I want to change it.
Guest:Start from scratch.
Guest:Will you guys work with me?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we did.
Guest:They jumped in and we started talking about it.
Guest:How many other scripts do you have just sitting around for?
Guest:Not that many.
Guest:In fact, when I put that down, it was the first time in my life I literally walked away from a script I spent a year and I thought, wow, I got to be careful because I didn't get paid for that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I'm not super rich and I'm like, I can't spend that kind of time on something I don't get paid for and not do it.
Marc:But in its inception, I mean, when you began to write it, did you set out to write a thriller and then become disappointed?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, I think it is interesting because like what I've started to notice in watching like pig and I'm watching your film and I just watched all of Underground Railroad is that I think that one thing the Trump presidency and the pandemic has diminished greatly is the happy ending and it seems that
Marc:You know, there there is something to be said about antiheroes and and morally ambiguous endings that are obviously have usually almost always reflect an honesty in what the human condition is at any given time.
Marc:But it seems like there is an appetite for it again, not unlike the 70s.
Marc:Am I projecting?
Marc:Do you think it's possible?
Marc:I think now's the time for that.
Guest:I think with Stillwater, look, the original was a thriller.
Guest:What thrillers don't usually possess are consequences, right, for actions.
Guest:And I think this film needed to examine consequences for the main character and hence our actions, right, both at home and abroad.
Guest:And so that was something we started to talk about.
Guest:I had two French writers looking back, talking to me every day in 2016, 2017, trying to analyze what was happening in this country and how we felt about it.
Guest:And I'm like, oh man, that's the other thing I didn't have in the original draft.
Guest:I didn't have a point of view.
Guest:I didn't have a cause.
Guest:I didn't have a discussion.
Guest:I didn't have something I was trying to understand.
Guest:When I went to Oklahoma, we were doing a lot of finger pointing.
Guest:It was a lot of, screw those people, they're the problem, we're the problem.
Guest:I'm like, I gotta go sit with these people.
Guest:I gotta start to understand our countrymen
Guest:As hokey as that sounds, in a more complete way.
Guest:And I'll be honest, at that time, it was incredibly, it was enlightening.
Guest:I would come back from those trips feeling hopeful about our country at a moment where I was not feeling hopeful about our country.
Marc:Well, you know, it's weird that happens when you actually talk to people.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:I mean, it's like I'm glad it made you feel helpful.
Marc:But, you know, the chances of you walking away from that and then reentering some rabbit hole of misinformation is high.
Marc:But when you sit with people and among people, which I think our phones and our computers kind of put a real wall between us and actually communicating, you realize like, oh, we're all just people.
Marc:There's a vulnerability to it.
Marc:There's a tenderness to it.
Marc:There's a respect to it, which I'm starting to see in some of these films I've been watching.
Marc:I'm kind of having this weird kind of a...
Marc:brain-changing moment around watching Sterling's stuff and Stillwater and also the Underground Railroad.
Marc:The only thing that's going to save us is that connection, that tenderness, that attempt at being better.
Guest:I think so.
Guest:I think they're more human movies, right?
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Guest:And there's empathy.
Guest:Like Bill Baker, who Matt Damon plays, is a very flawed character, but he's a dimensional character.
Guest:But yeah, he's also like fails.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, that is the whole thing is like once you realize where you are in that movie, you're like, no, he's not.
Marc:This is not how you go about doing this.
Marc:Yeah, it creates real tension.
Marc:And those moments where Matt's like, you know, I'm sorry, you know, like where he does things that he again knows are wrong and they're going to be he he tries, but he doesn't think things through.
Guest:Yeah, I think you're right.
Guest:I think.
Guest:Look, I think there's a fallibility to us all.
Guest:And I think, you know, now as a guy with two young daughters, you think, oh man, I just screw up all the time.
Guest:I do the wrong things.
Guest:I say the wrong things.
Guest:I act out in the wrong way.
Guest:And you're, you know, when you got little people staring at you, you're really, I'm really conscious.
Guest:And so those scenes with him and his daughter to me, I think it's the thing Matt probably connected with first in the script.
Guest:They're just heartbreaking to me.
Guest:They're heartbreaking.
Guest:You know, look, again, it was interesting, you know, when we started, when we were working on the original draft of this, we were all listening to podcasts.
Guest:And by that, I mean, like, long-form story podcasts.
Guest:S-Town, Serial, those things.
Guest:We were kind of just talking about it and the craze of it, and we're like, oh, this is cool.
Guest:How these things start off as one thing and become something else.
Guest:And they keep evolving.
Guest:And suddenly, like, I don't care what they're talking about.
Guest:I'm deeply involved.
Guest:So it starts as a mystery and becomes a love story.
Guest:And I don't know, whatever.
Guest:And we were just really into these things.
Guest:And we're like, why can't that be our template here?
Guest:Why can't that be our sort of cinematic template?
Marc:Oh, interesting.
Guest:And let this sort of, let this movie change lanes and become more human when it needs to.
Guest:Because we knew we weren't just interested in the straight up thriller.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That has been done and done well.
Guest:This isn't just an American on a mission.
Marc:This is American abroad.
Marc:You almost inverted the thriller.
Marc:Definitely.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, yeah, because... Well, that's interesting.
Marc:So that was the template is that you realize we have a certain amount of freedom narratively.
Marc:We're not beholden to anything.
Marc:This is set up to be a rescue mission, but what it's really about is this guy's journey to...
Marc:Possible journey to his own personal freedom and and the literal Attempt to free his daughter.
Guest:No question look and what normally happens on those missions the mission is the story, right?
Guest:This is like what happens because we all have other life around our missions We all work hard, but we have all this other life around it.
Guest:Let's continue to keep that alive Let's continue to explore that because ultimately that's where the pain comes from at the end And I think that's what separates this movie from just a particular genre.
Guest:It's human drama
Marc:And I didn't see I didn't see, you know, a genre and I didn't see also like I it's also like talking that we did in the kitchen about pig.
Marc:This is also a grief movie.
Marc:Definitely.
Marc:And I'm just finding in life.
Marc:That most people are carrying around unresolved grief.
Marc:And if you start to look at that, like, who knows how to handle that shit?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because, you know, you got to suck it up and live.
Marc:But like, you know, I recently, you know, had a revelation about my mother's boyfriend.
Marc:I'm like, oh, my God.
Marc:You know, if I look at his life, you know, grief is going to twist you in ways that you can't imagine if you don't process it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think you're right.
Guest:And look, I think sometimes it's beyond us to take the proper steps to cope, you know, unless we really have a mechanism set up in our life.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That really forces us.
Guest:And then so sometimes, as in movies, I think, as in the story, events happen to us.
Guest:If we're lucky, that push us to confront these things.
Guest:It's painful.
Guest:But it like forces our hand a little bit, forces us out of our lane a little bit and makes us.
Guest:And it doesn't mean we're going to be necessarily better for it, but we are going to start to understand and be more in touch with it, which is at least a silver lining.
Guest:At least that's hopeful.
Guest:Maybe.
Marc:Beaten into humility.
Guest:Maybe.
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you might not know it.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And that's the worst part.
Marc:It's like if life has beaten you into humility, but you're the last to know, then you're just this comedy of errors that everyone's sort of like, when is he going?
Guest:Wow, that poor guy.
Guest:He's walking dead.
Guest:Walking dead.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you mentioned that you got to know Lynn Shelton a bit.
Marc:I did.
Guest:I did.
Guest:I've been a fan of your show for a while.
Guest:And again, tragedy is a funny thing.
Guest:I didn't reach out when Lynn passed.
Guest:And I was, as everyone, just brokenhearted about it.
Guest:Thanks.
Guest:It was interesting.
Guest:I met her randomly one night.
Guest:I was invited by Edgar Wright and Paul Rudd.
Guest:We went to see Paul Simon play.
Guest:And I met her a couple times.
Guest:I was a big fan of her movies.
Guest:We met in L.A.
Guest:one night just randomly and had a nice chat.
Guest:And she showed up.
Guest:She was the fourth.
Guest:And we had the best time.
Guest:We went to this Paul Simon.
Guest:We had his last concerts.
Guest:Went out for dinner.
Guest:talked all night you know the four of us just geeked out and this started this great funny new relationship and then I'm on I think what's called the old people's social media app Marco Polo yeah she loved that thing I'm not on it but she was I don't do it with anyone I have two groups of friends I do it with that's it and one day I get to Marco Polo she's like tell me this can't be
Guest:Because I don't have any social media presence.
Guest:And she's like, you're not on this.
Guest:And it started this very funny back and forth with her and I at random times.
Guest:And it was like, finally, my wife's like, who's on your market?
Guest:I'm like, this group, this group, and Len Sheldon.
Guest:I don't know why.
Guest:It's become this thing.
Guest:She's like, okay, I totally condone that.
Guest:And, you know, in fact, one of the last times we spoke on it was I was in Marseille making Stillwater.
Guest:She didn't know.
Guest:She reached out.
Guest:You guys were coming to- Spain.
Guest:No, you were coming to New York with SWORD.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And she asked me to sort of, she said, she goes, I really want, have you met Mark?
Guest:I said, no.
Guest:She goes, oh, you guys, you got to meet.
Guest:And if, would you meet us for dinner and then do like a, you know, Q&A and, you know, moderate.
Guest:Yeah, moderate.
Guest:And I said, of course.
Guest:I said, but I'm in France till this date and it didn't work out.
Guest:And so that's why we didn't meet that time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, but man, I just, you know, what's to say?
Guest:Yeah, what do you do?
Guest:What do you do?
Guest:By the way, sort of true, that movie, so fucking good.
Marc:Yeah, it's an interesting little movie.
Guest:I went back and watched it again, and that one scene, it's a really, and you're amazing in that movie, and it's a really, really deep movie in a lot of ways, but that one scene that you and Lynn have in the shop, that scene is so intense.
Guest:And I mean connection-wise.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's just like a deeply quiet, patient, deeply heartfelt, intense scene.
Marc:Did you feel that when you were shooting it?
Marc:Well, yeah, of course.
Marc:The waves of grief, it's hard.
Marc:But that scene, what was very important to her, because at that time, it's difficult when you are sort of in love with somebody, but you can't really...
Marc:allow it to happen because of situations.
Marc:So there was a lot of interesting tension with us anyways.
Marc:But we were definitely close.
Marc:At that moment.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So it was kind of loaded up.
Marc:And also there was a dynamic with her and I where she was directing me and she directed me many times before in my own show, in comedy specials.
Marc:She always wanted to make a movie with me that we were writing that we never finished.
Marc:that still remains unfinished, but she sort of pulled this together primarily to direct me in a movie.
Marc:So then she's like, I'm going to play this part.
Marc:And then there was always sort of like, I'm not difficult on set, but it was hot.
Marc:In Birmingham, I was cranky.
Marc:Were you difficult?
Marc:I couldn't get the cereal I wanted.
Marc:Of course, man.
Marc:The important stuff.
Marc:I'm not a prima donna, but I mean- Doesn't sound like it.
Marc:How hard is it to get this one cereal?
Marc:Anyways.
Marc:So there's a tension of like, you know, in a sort of like couple-y way where she's telling me, giving me direction.
Marc:I'm like, no, I don't want to, you know, and I have to move through that, you know, the kind of like, because she's always right.
Marc:And it just takes me a minute to be like, all right, okay, okay.
Marc:So that's all playing in that scene.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:But what's really playing in there is that, you know, she just moved me, you know, and ultimately, you know, that scene is about having to shut somebody out who you love out of necessity.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, which is, you know, that drug relationship.
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:So you can feel a bit.
Guest:You talked about Stillwater and the mystery of it.
Guest:Like, who is this guy?
Guest:What's happening?
Guest:That scene has that so brilliantly because you don't you don't and you don't reveal what's going on in that movie and that relationship for another hour.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:And so, like, you're just sitting there.
Guest:I remember the first when I went back and watch it.
Guest:That's when I was like, God damn, the fucking the tension between these two people is so powerful as actors, as characters.
Guest:But the first time you see that, think about that.
Guest:You really don't know what's going on because you don't say anything.
Guest:You brilliantly play that, quietly play that of just this pain, this sort of fear, this tension.
Guest:And having to fight that charm.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And she's so charming.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You've got to hold back someone who has your number.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Deeply.
Marc:I love watching that scene.
Guest:That's what makes that last moment in that movie so powerful when you just leave it and walk through.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:It's so beautiful.
Guest:I couldn't watch it again for a while, quite honestly, because-
Marc:It's hard, man.
Marc:It's hard with the loss because you want to keep going back to it, but you can't.
Marc:I have pictures and stuff.
Marc:I had her jacket and her hat and her boots in the hallway for a year, and I just finally put them away because what are you going to do?
Guest:My wife and I were just talking about this, because she's a friend who just lost her husband, a dear friend.
Guest:And I didn't meet him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And my wife always wanted me to meet him.
Guest:And her friend came over the other day, and I just felt such a sense of, like, missed opportunity.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we were literally talking about this yesterday, and I felt that about Lynn, quite honestly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because it was such a new relationship.
Guest:That's why.
Guest:There was such an outpouring for grief and people reaching out to you and these community things.
Guest:I didn't feel like I even had a seat at the table because I was like the new friend.
Guest:I barely did.
Guest:So I just quietly sat on the outside and was like mourned.
Guest:Like Josh Pice was a dear friend of mine.
Guest:He's worked with her a bunch of times.
Guest:And I called him.
Guest:I called friends that I knew that were closer to her.
Guest:But it's such an odd feeling.
Guest:And I remember saying to my wife, because she's like, I keep hearing about Lynn suddenly before she passed away.
Guest:I'm like, you're going to love her.
Guest:She's going to be a part of our circle.
Guest:She's such an artist.
Guest:She's such a woman.
Guest:She has this dude energy.
Guest:She can hang with anybody.
Guest:She's smart, but she's so accessible.
Guest:I'm going to talk about her in the present because it still helps.
Guest:There's that sense of it's a unique part of grief when you feel things are interrupted.
Marc:That's the hardest thing about that was that
Marc:Yeah, our relationship was new, relatively new.
Marc:And I didn't really know a lot.
Marc:I mean, dude, I mean, I had not really met her parents or spent any time with her son.
Marc:And all of a sudden, the way I really build a relationship with them is the day she's taken to the hospital.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So that like in realizing that I had no real history with this woman who I was in love with was, you know, that's the hardest thing is that you're grieving the possibilities.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And a lot of people had a lot of time with her.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, and deep, long ties.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, I didn't have that.
Marc:And I always felt like, you know, like, you know, I'm the guy she died with.
Marc:I don't have this long life with her.
Marc:It was rough, man.
Guest:It's rough.
Guest:Is it something you'll ever examine in any way through work, through writing?
Marc:Well, I've been trying to.
Marc:Sadly, I'm a comic.
Marc:So what do you do with that?
Marc:How do you process that on stage?
Marc:And I've been sort of doing it.
Marc:I've been improvising through hours, an hour and a half.
Marc:Because I do think that grief is underrepresented in the sense that it's something that we are all going to experience one way or the other.
Marc:And the one thing that got me through this thing was realizing this is not unusual.
Marc:It's sad and tragic.
Marc:But losing people in grief, it's human.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But you're I mean, you are a comic, but you're also a very good actor.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And there's other ways of express.
Guest:I just curious because I know you've been talking a lot about that way.
Guest:And I'm just wondering if there's other long form ways.
Marc:Well, yeah.
Marc:I mean, I don't know if it's going to be in writing, but I did a small movie, which I brought a lot of it to that.
Marc:I think it's.
Marc:it's opened something up in me that's good and probably isn't going to close if I don't let it become bitterness.
Marc:But speaking of how you got to be somebody who tells stories, that wasn't the original intention, was it, for you?
Marc:No.
Marc:I mean, how did you come up?
Marc:Where'd you grow up?
Guest:I grew up in New Jersey.
Guest:Just a Jersey guy?
Guest:Yeah, just a Jersey guy.
Guest:What part of Jersey?
Guest:It's New Providence.
Guest:Where's that?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:What county?
Guest:Union County.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Are you a Jersey guy?
Marc:Yeah, I'm born in Jersey.
Marc:Where?
Marc:Morris County is.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Pompton Lakes is where my mother's from.
Marc:Yeah, I think I knew that.
Marc:My dad's from Jersey City.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm genetically Jersey, I'd say.
Marc:Yeah, I got Jersey in me.
Marc:Yeah, oh, I got a lot of Jersey.
Marc:Severe Jersey.
Marc:You can't put a... You know, if you spent any... How long were you there?
Marc:Your whole childhood?
Marc:Yeah, until I went to college.
Marc:You know, so Jersey's all right.
Guest:I like Jersey.
Guest:A lot of cool people come out of Jersey.
Guest:You came out of Jersey.
Guest:But it's so lush.
Guest:It is such a unique place, and it's got such a unique personality.
Guest:But no one I knew did this or anything like this.
Guest:I didn't think about this until- How many brothers and sisters?
Guest:I got three brothers and a sister, a big Irish Catholic family.
Marc:And none of them went into show business?
Marc:No.
Marc:No.
Marc:What did your parents do?
Guest:My dad was in textiles.
Guest:My mom was a housewife.
Guest:What does textiles mean?
Guest:Like towels and sheets and things like that.
Guest:Manufacturing them?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, he was on the corporate side.
Guest:He didn't actually work.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:So they sold the goods to people that put their labels on it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like an office in New York and he worked at these companies.
Marc:Oh, so he drove into the city every day.
Guest:Every day.
Guest:Commuter guy.
Guest:Took the train, Erie Lackawanna back in the day.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's kind of cool.
Guest:It was cool.
Guest:You know, it was like, I don't know, when I told them I was doing this, they sort of just looked at me just blankly.
Guest:Just almost not even an opinion.
Guest:What did you tell them you were going to do?
Guest:You know what I started to do?
Guest:I started to do improv comedy, and I got out of college, and I say, I'm going to go work with this improv comedy group from college.
Guest:Where'd you go to college?
Guest:Boston College, undergrad.
Marc:Oh, you Catholic genius.
Marc:Yeah, straight up.
Marc:You know, it's like, I was down the street.
Marc:Catholic genius.
Guest:You don't hear that enough.
Guest:Not since Aquinas.
Yeah.
Marc:I was down the street at BJU for us Jewish kids who couldn't quite make the grade.
Marc:BU is like this great sort of like middle class Jewish repository of kids who disappointed their parents.
Guest:Yeah, look, it was an interesting place to go to school.
Guest:I enjoyed it.
Guest:I enjoyed the education.
Guest:Looking back, it was a wonderful school, maybe a bit homogenous in terms of the type of people.
Guest:Pasty.
Guest:Yeah, a little Irish pasty in a way.
Guest:It's a Jesuit school.
Guest:Jesuits are very interesting people.
Guest:They're an interesting folks.
Marc:How so?
Guest:Learned.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But you grew up in the church?
Marc:I did.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Heavy duty.
Marc:Heavy duty.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:So, when you got to college, you, like, you... I started to separate a bit.
Marc:But you naturally had respect for the Jesuits.
Marc:I still do.
Guest:I still do for the Catholic Church, but I'm just... I'm not really a practicing Catholic.
Marc:Even after Spotlight?
Marc:Even after you immersed yourself in your Oscar-winning movie?
Guest:I think Spotlight sealed the deal.
Guest:I think it no I mean by that point you know actually part of the reason I want to make it I remember my father is now passed away when I decided I was gonna do that movie because they were very good Catholics and I realized how important the Catholic Church is to a lot of people and I went out and I sat with him at a diner and said I'm gonna direct this movie and as soon as they announce it's gonna get a lot of press yeah and I want you to know about it and some Catholics probably won't be happy about it and I'm gonna do my best it was a run of intense conversation
Marc:And then he said, you better go talk to father immediately.
Guest:No, he grabbed me by the scruff of my neck and took me over to the church.
Guest:No, he said, he said, look, I'm down.
Guest:He said, I understand.
Guest:Why do you want to do it?
Guest:And like, you know, just represent all sides, you know?
Guest:And I said, look, it's not a movie if I just pillar, right?
Guest:Like I've got it.
Guest:There's got to be a bigger conversation there.
Guest:And he understood that.
Marc:How did your parents' generation respond to the reality of what was- Of the sexual abuse?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know what's fascinating about that?
Guest:My father sat with me first.
Guest:This was so old school.
Guest:We went to the diner.
Guest:Two guys over a cup of coffee.
Guest:In Jersey?
Guest:Yep, in Jersey, in New Providence.
Guest:Old Glory, the diner.
Guest:And we talked about this.
Guest:And then my mother joined at some point.
Guest:I don't know if this was planned, but suddenly she showed up.
Guest:She showed up.
Guest:And, you know, at this point, I don't know, I'm 40 something years old.
Guest:This is just bizarre.
Guest:I'm talking to my I'm like pitching my movie to my parents.
Guest:But we started talking about it.
Guest:And that led to a conversation about the sexual abuse scandals in the catcher church.
Guest:And I realized they had never had a deep conversation about it.
Guest:I think they just put it in a box.
Guest:It's not that they didn't acknowledge it.
Guest:It's not that they weren't horrified by it.
Guest:But they never, as two partners, sat down and said, let's talk about this as two Catholics and how we feel.
Guest:And they started to have this long conversation.
Guest:And I just sat back and drank my coffee and watched.
Guest:And I'll never forget that conversation because I thought, oh, this is why you make the movie.
Guest:You kind of keep the conversation going.
Guest:Obviously, not enough has changed in that regard in that particular case.
Guest:And this is like two very thoughtful, you know,
Guest:Loving caring people and good Catholics and they really hadn't had the deep discourse on it that I felt it deserved Where'd they end up with it?
Marc:Like what you know, like what what was the arc of that conversation?
Marc:I mean where where did it land a bit unresolved?
Guest:My father passed away before I finished the movie Yeah, I know it's always made me sad My mother came to the premiere.
Guest:This is actually a nice story.
Guest:She came to the premiere and
Guest:was so overwhelmed by the movie because I think my father sometimes is a way of my mother processing things.
Guest:They work together.
Guest:They work through things like good partners.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she lost her voice at the premiere, like literally, you know, hysterical blindness.
Guest:This was like hysterical voice loss, literally in the course of the screening.
Guest:And I think by the end, and it was a big premiere and there's a party.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she struggled for that week of trying to understand where this put her in her community of Catholics and friends, I think.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:And then in a kind of amazing moment, Father Joe from her parish drove into New York that next weekend when it opened, went, saw the movie at Angelica, drove right to my mother's house, knocked on her door and said, it's a good movie.
Guest:You should feel good about this.
Yeah.
Guest:He basically absolved her.
Guest:And voila, she was back.
Guest:And she's been my most ardent supporter since.
Guest:She needed Father Joe to... You talk about a guy I'm forever indebted to?
Guest:I literally went to church with her the next week and thanked him.
Guest:Did you?
Guest:Yeah, I walked in.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I remember my brother over my shoulder saying, are you sure you're welcome here?
Guest:And I said, that's a good question.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:But I did.
Guest:I went up and thanked him and said, hey, man, that was solid.
Guest:I appreciate that.
Marc:That's interesting.
Guest:I didn't say, hey, man.
Guest:I think I said, hey, father.
Marc:Did you grow up with that guy?
Guest:No, that was long after I left.
Guest:But I was an altar boy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And?
Guest:Yeah, it was fun.
Guest:No, nothing.
Guest:I was an altar boy.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:End of story.
Guest:And?
Guest:Just the way you looked at me over your glasses there.
Marc:Well, that's that is the repercussion of of what went down for centuries.
Marc:And, you know, I don't.
Marc:Well, it's interesting that the compartmentalizing thing that you talk about, because I'm Jewish and I'm like relatively unsophisticated in terms of knowing anything about, you know, the Catholic Church or even my own religion to a certain degree.
Marc:But I do know that the the older people know that.
Marc:And I think they knew.
Marc:And they didn't know what to do with boys who were moving towards something that they saw as a sin.
Marc:And I'm not saying that pedophiles are homosexuals, but there was something about repressive sexuality that the way some men or boys were driven into the priesthood was dubious.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:I mean, look, it was a total broken system.
Guest:And I don't just mean just in terms of the church, in terms of society, right?
Guest:It wasn't safe to be gay for hundreds of years, right?
Marc:It's barely safe now.
Guest:You've got to have certain cities.
Guest:Of course, of course.
Guest:And many of these families, I think you're right.
Guest:They literally put their children...
Guest:in that situation and then it just it just was corrosive like the catholic church didn't deal with it parishioners didn't deal with it there was no transparency and honestly quite honestly not enough has changed in that regard not not enough a lot of young people are at risk in all these situations and we as a society are still choosing in many cases to look the other way well but one thing that's happened is a lot of people have recalibrated their opinion and their approach and their commitment to the church i would think
Guest:I think so.
Marc:Certainly in this country.
Guest:The church is recalibrated.
Guest:I think the church is like, look, we're not going to change as much as people want so people can stay or they can leave.
Guest:I think the church has drawn a line.
Guest:They're rebranding.
Guest:They're sort of like, we're not about pedophilia anymore.
Marc:We might be downsizing.
Guest:We might be downsizing.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:It's a new non-pedophilia Catholic church.
Marc:That's part of the new pitch.
Marc:So you tell your folks, like, you know, I'm going to do improv?
Marc:Like, why?
Marc:Did you do it in college in some silly group?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's not a silly group.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Guest:Well, I guess it was a silly group now to come to think of.
Marc:I mean- It was.
Marc:It was a group that was- Did it have a silly name?
Guest:My Mother's Flea... I'm just realizing you're right.
Guest:It was a silly group.
Guest:My Mother's Fleabag.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It was there forever.
Guest:It was an improv group.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:There's always one there.
Guest:I've never done anything like that.
Guest:Met this group of people who still are dear friends today, who still all work, who still are smart people who do comedy and acting and other things.
Guest:And that was the beginning for me.
Guest:That was like, oh, okay.
Guest:I like this.
Guest:This is different.
Marc:You liked it.
Marc:And it was like a big group?
Marc:How many?
Guest:Seven.
Guest:Seven, eight people.
Marc:Men and women?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you were doing sketch?
Guest:Sketch comedy, improv.
Marc:And improv?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you'd perform at the school.
Guest:And it's kind of a big thing on campus.
Guest:Like a lot of people, you know, Poehler was in that group when she was there.
Guest:She sort of started the year I left, I think.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Nancy Walz, now Nancy Carell, who was a genius in it.
Guest:Miley Flanagan.
Guest:Wayne Wilderson's an actor.
Guest:You know, there's like...
Guest:here in LA.
Guest:So there was a lot of really talented people who came through that.
Guest:And more for me, it was just like, I was a kid from Jersey who never thought of this stuff.
Guest:So suddenly I was like, oh, this is a different way of thinking.
Guest:I'm looking at the world.
Guest:Were you an English major or something?
Guest:Philosophy.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I started in the business school.
Guest:Because that's my, you know, I'm the kind of Irish Catholic kid that went to BC with like three pairs of slacks, yellow, green, and red.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I think in navy blue, I think four.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I literally had slacks.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I don't know, who has slacks?
Guest:Do you have slacks?
Marc:I don't know what you, you mean like slack slacks?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I might have a pair of slacks.
Guest:Kind of like a pleated chino.
Guest:Yeah, no, I mean- I remember my parents gave it to me.
Guest:I was like, I don't think I'm going to wear these very much.
Marc:I don't think I ever wore them, but they- Everybody wore chinos in fucking BC.
Guest:Yeah, this was like that.
Guest:Yeah, you're right.
Guest:It was the chino culture.
Marc:They were like boat shoes and chinos and buttoned down collars.
Guest:All right, don't overdo it.
Marc:Geez, it wasn't a- Navy blazer guy.
Marc:It sounds like- He had a Navy blazer.
Guest:Green line anger coming-
Guest:coming right down the green line.
Guest:Oh, I still have one.
Guest:I definitely had a navy blazer.
Guest:It was like, come on, that's the uniform.
Guest:But yeah, so you go there with that.
Guest:I started in the business school.
Guest:I had a great professor.
Guest:Oxford shirt.
Guest:I have many Oxford shirts.
Guest:Actually, the best teacher I had at BC, one of them was a business school professor, accounting finance guy who basically pulled me into his office and just said, don't do this.
Guest:You shouldn't be in this school.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Professor Turner.
Marc:I wonder what happened.
Marc:He just saw it inside you?
Guest:Yeah, he came in.
Guest:I thought he was calling me in to say, hey, you're doing great.
Guest:And he basically said, hey, you're trying really hard and it's not working.
Guest:You should think about something else.
Marc:And that was the great philosophical question.
Marc:So that's where you're like, I don't know.
Marc:I'm going to- Philosophy.
Marc:I need answers.
Guest:I walked out of that school and changed my changement major the next day.
Guest:So were you taught by Jesuits in philosophy?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's when it got interesting.
Guest:Because the professors were either Jesuits, holy men, or ex-Jesuits in many.
Guest:Men who had pushed their logic to a faith who could no longer support their faith.
Guest:And so- They let them stay there?
Guest:Oh yeah, of course.
Guest:They engaged in it.
Guest:There were like these great debates that they would do.
Marc:That's a lovely thing.
Marc:That was the best part.
Yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you'd have a Jesuit and then you'd have the fallen Jesuit.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, these guys, I don't know if they consider themselves fallen.
Guest:Or risen, I guess, depending how you look at it.
Marc:And what strain of philosophy, you could wrap your brain around it?
Guest:I loved it only because I felt like I was behind all that.
Guest:There were so many people who were so far beyond me.
Guest:I was playing catch up and they were just, they were just, I would be in classes with people who could just think in, for lack of a way of better way of saying it, they could think better.
Guest:They have bigger brains.
Guest:They could process bigger ideas.
Guest:They could sort of, and I'm like, I think that's as, I think that was probably the beginning of my writing.
Guest:I'm like, Oh, this is becoming a writer.
Guest:Cause I'm like, Oh, I need to be better at processing ideas and,
Marc:distilling them and then articulating them that's a really cool thing that i can't do oh so it was the structure of the philosophical argument that had an impact i think so that more so than the you know necessarily the answers yeah there was never is there ever answers not every day every day i'm working on it
Guest:It was more the questions.
Guest:And like that, for me, was like sort of set me off in that direction.
Guest:I think, you know, changed the course.
Marc:You're doing the philosophy and you're doing the comedy.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:That was it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I got out.
Marc:It works together.
Guest:It works, right?
Marc:Where'd you go when you got out?
Guest:We all moved to Minneapolis.
Marc:We all?
Guest:Yeah, the troupe that a lot of people I performed with at Boston College.
Marc:So you created your own troupe?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then moved to Minneapolis?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because Minneapolis?
Yeah.
Guest:There was one, we sat around thinking, where could we go?
Guest:And we're like, we can't afford to go to New York because we have no money and we'll never survive.
Guest:We can't go to LA because who the hell goes to LA?
Guest:We're a bunch of Irish Boston College kids, right?
Guest:And there was one dude, Wayne Wilderson, who said, I live in Minneapolis.
Guest:It's a cool town.
Guest:There's a lot of musicians and there's some comedy.
Guest:Let's go there.
Marc:So the idea was you'd get a residency at a theater?
Guest:Yeah, not quite.
Guest:We didn't quite have that ambition.
Guest:We literally were performing anywhere they would let us, from car shows to- How many of you were you?
Guest:Like seven of us.
Marc:So there were seven when you left too?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:So car shows?
Guest:Anything.
Guest:Yeah, literally car shows.
Guest:We performed first on Cape Cod for the summer, and then we performed all over the Cape.
Guest:What town?
Guest:All over?
Guest:All over.
Guest:We spent a lot of time in Wellfleet, at the Wellfleet Oyster House.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then we just got, you know, better and better at it.
Guest:And then we moved to Minneapolis.
Guest:We did that for like two years until we totally exploded because we were like, you know, we didn't know what we were doing.
Marc:Exploded.
Marc:Oh, not fame wise, but as people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We were like, okay, we got to go on our own.
Marc:So it's how many men to women?
Guest:I think it was an even split.
Guest:I think it was three.
Marc:And how long did it take for everyone to start commingling and creating negative relationships?
Guest:It took a while.
Guest:Look, some of us commingled, some of us, a lot of people, there was two or three people who came out at that period.
Guest:It was a great exploration and understanding.
Guest:Look, for me, what it was, was like, I wasn't an artist.
Guest:I didn't come from that.
Guest:I came from this really structured Irish Catholic sort of, you usually get a job when you get out of college and you go to work at a corporation.
Guest:So it let me start thinking about the world differently.
Guest:And that was the beginning of, I would say that period, that two or three years in Minneapolis was way more informative than college.
Guest:What was your most, you think, if you had to look back, most informative period?
Marc:You know, there's actually been several, you know, I think.
Marc:You know, college didn't really pan out for me because I'm not... I was emotionally sort of incomplete and needy, so, like, I couldn't really... Like, I somehow charmed my way into honors.
Marc:Yeah, I graduated with honors, but it was not based on anything, I think, other than my ability to sort of, you know... It was liberal arts, so what does that really mean?
Marc:Yep.
Marc:But there was...
Marc:There was the drug part, and then there was the, I don't, like, the periods.
Marc:Like, I've been looking back a lot, dude, on, you know, my commitment to comedy happened right after college, and I put myself, I dragged myself through a lot of very weird, painful, you know, not heavy trauma, but, you know, emotionally traumatic situations to get where I am.
Marc:And I can't tell you why.
Marc:It's weird, but I guess the most...
Marc:I mean, once the podcast started and I started to feel and I got recognized for something, I think that was the most significant.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:But you did a lot of great stuff up until that point.
Marc:Yeah, but I didn't recognize it and I didn't feel like I was culturally recognized either.
Marc:So whatever self-esteem was supposed to fill in in me didn't.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Until, you know, we created this podcast out of nothing when there were no podcasts.
Marc:And all of a sudden there was something happening around my stand up and around this.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Where I'm like, you know, I'm doing something that I'm proud of.
Marc:And so something filled up in me.
Guest:So somehow that for you was also linked to being recognized.
Right.
Marc:Definitely, you know, because I'd worked hard and I always thought my comedy was worthy.
Marc:And I never knew like I knew I wasn't an entertainer, but I thought I was culturally relevant.
Marc:But that's relative to the cultural.
Guest:What do you mean by you weren't an entertainer?
Marc:I never thought of myself as an entertainer.
Marc:I thought I thought of comedy as some kind of weird truth pulpit where the context was specifically you just you had to be funny.
Marc:But like what was really going on there was like I was I needed to find myself.
Marc:and find myself in relation to the world that I live in and then share this journey with people.
Marc:And sometimes it got very dicey.
Marc:I mean, I think back on it all the time.
Marc:I was in Boston sort of at the beginning of my career, working at a club, doing whatever the fuck I did.
Marc:I don't even know why I was driven by anger and sort of like, you know.
Marc:Yeah, truth.
Marc:Yeah, right, that.
Marc:And I did a set once and some guy who was in a local media position, I don't know who he was, but he just, he walked up to me and he looked at me and goes, why comedy?
Bye.
Bye.
Marc:Did it resonate with you?
Marc:Yeah, because I still think about it.
Marc:I'm like, I don't know.
Marc:I still don't know.
Marc:You know, I've gotten better at it, but I don't really feel like I do it like many people.
Marc:And I don't think I do it for the reasons that many people do.
Marc:I never was in it for the money.
Marc:I just wanted to be a great comic.
Marc:And for me, great comics did something more than just entertain.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I don't know.
Marc:When does someone know they're there?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I still don't quite know.
Marc:I know that I'm doing good work, but culturally relevant, I don't know.
Marc:Well, I would say that's safe to say you are.
Marc:Sometimes.
Marc:To some people.
Marc:But then it's like, well, I think you're right, but my brain goes like, but no, it's a small bunch.
Marc:It's a small crew of people that think that.
Marc:Oh, what?
Marc:Think that I'm relevant.
Marc:So then it comes to like, how many do you need?
Marc:I need.
Guest:the world but then I know like I'm not for everybody I'm barely for me so like you know like how you know what I mean yeah I do I do trust me as a filmmaker you deal with that all the time especially I never think of myself as a filmmaker who puts myself out there into the world I don't I just some filmmakers lead with their personality and in a great way and they lead with their brand for lack of a better word yeah I've never been that way I love like you just said it I've never thought about making money
Guest:Right.
Guest:I just love the work.
Guest:Like I, you know, Boston College led me to that.
Guest:I started acting.
Guest:I'm like, oh, acting's cool.
Guest:And then I had this dream like, oh, maybe I could be an actor in my, you know, and I'm like, that would be amazing if I was an actor.
Guest:Like that would be incredible.
Marc:How does that happen?
Marc:I mean, so you're like, you know, you're the improv group is breaking apart.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then what do you do?
Guest:I was, I started, I always loved plays and I'm like, why couldn't I do a play?
Guest:In Minneapolis.
Guest:Then I moved to Chicago.
Guest:I was like, I'm going to move somewhere else.
Guest:I moved to Chicago.
Guest:I just started trying auditioning.
Guest:But I didn't know anything.
Marc:Did you ever do stand-up?
Marc:No.
Guest:That would scare the shit.
Guest:I did a lot of comedy in the improv side, but not stand-up.
Guest:Stand-up just always scared the shit out of me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, and I just started acting, and I thought, okay, this is cool.
Guest:I really dig this.
Guest:I was pretty good at it.
Guest:I started getting roles.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I realized- In Chicago, you started getting roles?
Guest:Chicago, yeah.
Guest:Why do you say it like that?
Guest:That's a good theater town.
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:No, I'm just like- Seem judgmental.
Marc:No, not at all.
Marc:I mean, Chicago turns out to be the sort of source of most of modern comedy.
Marc:You think so?
Marc:Well, yeah.
Marc:Because of Second City and all that?
Marc:Well, the shift from sort of like standup-based product and sketch group-based product is different.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You had this generation of stand-ups who were these weird rogue characters that primarily got into the racket because they couldn't get along with people.
Marc:And the focus of television and comedy shifted from there to these relatively emotionally healthy groups of people that knew how to work with each other.
Marc:There were many tiers.
Marc:There was writing and directing and acting all in one package.
Marc:And it kind of left the gypsy stand-up...
Marc:alone to figure out a new way.
Marc:But that's how I see it.
Marc:And it's a great theater town.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Tracy Letts has become a great friend of mine.
Guest:What a terrific artist that guy is.
Guest:He's a solid guy.
Guest:And on so many levels.
Guest:It's crazy.
Marc:Because he's like, you know, you hang out with him.
Marc:He's just like this good Chicago.
Marc:He's an Oklahoma guy.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:Correct.
Guest:August Osage.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But a great guy.
Marc:But yeah, just a monumental talent.
Guest:But I think he's emblematic of like Chicago.
Guest:It's sort of like a blue collar theater artist town.
Guest:Like they're not fussy.
Guest:They're not fancy.
Guest:They just work.
Guest:They love the work.
Guest:I think that's probably where now I think about it, how I started.
Guest:And so I'm like, oh, just do the work and don't worry about the other shit.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:So where'd you start working?
Marc:Did you do Steppenwolf?
Guest:No, they never hired me.
Marc:You weren't angry enough.
Guest:No, I was not angry or cool enough.
Guest:I think it's more anger.
Guest:I just started doing plays.
Guest:I was not terribly angry.
Guest:You gotta be fueled by sweaty booze and yelling.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know, you think about like...
Guest:I have that in my DNA, but maybe not enough for Steppenwolf at the time.
Guest:And I just started doing plays at theaters there, and I loved it.
Guest:But I realized I didn't really know what I was doing.
Guest:People kept using terminology and being like, what's the beat here?
Guest:And I'm like, what the fuck is a beat?
Marc:So you had no acting training?
Marc:None.
Guest:Not a day.
Marc:Just being funny with a group of people from college.
Guest:And suddenly I was like with real hardcore theater people who understood it and were very good at it.
Marc:But you had a knack for it.
Guest:I was pretty, yeah, I did.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I did, if I'm fair, because I was getting roles.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Probably, I probably shouldn't have been.
Guest:So I'm like, okay, I'm pretty good at this.
Guest:And then I thought I need to get training and I went to the Yale Drama School.
Marc:I went to the best place available, and they let me in because I lucked into it.
Guest:That I probably did.
Guest:Yeah, I do think on some level.
Guest:Isn't everything a little luck on some level?
Guest:Come on.
Guest:There's a lot of good people out there, right?
Marc:Yeah, I know, but that program, they only let like 12 people in, and you've got to go through this panel of people that are pretty snooty, so you've got to at some point.
Guest:That alone for me is that it's got to be some luck involved.
Marc:No, they've got to sense some innate talent.
Marc:Of course, but
Marc:We can build this guy.
Marc:Coupled with luck.
Marc:Yes, of course.
Guest:We can make him.
Guest:Six for one million dollars.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think that was it.
Guest:And then that changed the course of everything.
Guest:Once that happened, then I was sort of off and running.
Marc:So that probably informed just being in that environment must have informed your writing as well.
Marc:Everything.
Marc:Because were you doing graduate student playwright stuff?
Guest:I was doing a lot of plays, training, all that stuff.
Guest:But I was also writing in the cabaret, which is sort of a separate thing that you can do.
Guest:But I think more than that, I was around people who were articulating what we do.
Guest:Like smart people who thought a lot more about acting, writing, and directing in a way where I was like, oh, I love the way this.
Guest:I remember James Bundy, who now runs the drama school, was in my class.
Guest:And I would just listen to him talk.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And think, God, that guy's smart.
Guest:And I love the way he articulates his ideas on performance.
Marc:And what was the kernel of this awakening in terms of like the art of it?
Marc:What do you mean?
Marc:Well, I mean, like you're saying that like...
Marc:These were intelligent people talking about directing, acting, writing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So what was it that it made you realize that you wanted to do or could do?
Guest:I think I think also because there was an intellectual side of the pursuit, which I didn't realize.
Guest:And I had the same thing with movies about four years later.
Guest:Hmm.
Guest:That it was like suddenly I realized, oh, there's not just this emotional side to this work, but there's something deeply intellectual, which I find fascinating, which I'm a very, I was always a curious person.
Guest:I'm like, oh, this is where I can, I think I was a curious person who wasn't always an intellectual person, even in college.
Guest:I didn't pursue it as, even though I was a philosophy major.
Guest:I just didn't have the, I didn't have the training.
Guest:I didn't have, I wasn't rigorous enough as a person to dig in as deep as I should.
Marc:I was immature.
Marc:I was immature.
Marc:Drives me nuts, man.
Marc:Like, you know, because all I wanted was to be an intellectual, but I didn't have the discipline.
Marc:I don't think it's immaturity.
Marc:It's like in order to really be able to source what's necessary to be a traditional intellectual, you've got to do a lot of fucking reading, dude.
Guest:It's a lot of work.
Marc:By the way, I think you just cracked it.
Marc:Yeah, that's it.
Marc:For sure.
Marc:That's where the charm comes in.
Marc:You'll fake it, man.
Guest:Charm takes over when the intellect sort of hits the wall.
Marc:I'm out of my league.
Guest:And look, I'm Irish, right?
Guest:So it was like, oh, the charm I can do.
Guest:I'm out of my league here.
Guest:I'm going to tell a story.
Guest:I'm going to be funny for about two minutes.
Guest:And that'll make everyone forget I was supposed to be smart.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I feel like I do that in Q&As when releasing movies all the time.
Guest:Yeah, where you get the film nerd question and then he's sort of like- Matt and I were just talking about this, grew up in Santa Barbara yesterday.
Guest:And I remember the first time I went to Santa Barbara, you know Jim Sheridan, the great Irish director.
Guest:And Jim, I remember I was on this panel with him and Anthony Miguel and Denny Arcand, all these great directors.
Guest:all so you know so far beyond and jim does this thing it's it's the actual it's the perfect irish answer everything where they would any question they would ask he would answer any way he wanted to it had nothing to do with the question right and he would just be charming and funny right and he would finish and people would be like oh amazing oh so warm so irish so inviting and uh i was like and i would be staring down the line being like he didn't
Guest:answer the question.
Guest:That was not a proper answer.
Guest:And I thought, oh, Jim has it mastered.
Marc:Yes, yes.
Marc:The great art of Irish bullshit.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:And he knew the guy who knows how to make a movie, obviously.
Guest:And he, you know, he just didn't want to play the game.
Marc:That's great.
Guest:But do you write any plays?
Guest:It wasn't your thing.
Guest:I wrote two one-act plays with a buddy at Yale.
Guest:And it was the second one that we wrote together about the Ford brothers and P.T.
Guest:Barnum in New York, where I met Peter Dinklage, who then starred in my first film, Station Agent.
Marc:You met him where?
Guest:I directed him.
Guest:I cast him.
Guest:Tom Thumb was a role in this play.
Marc:That you wrote.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:The one after.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I needed to find Tom Thumb in New York City.
Guest:And everyone's like, you got to see Dink.
Guest:He's great.
Guest:He's a theater actor downtown.
Marc:That's his nickname is Dink?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, in order to cast Tom Thumb properly- Dink sounded right.
Guest:I said, I gotta find him.
Guest:I had to go find him.
Guest:I had to go down and see this play, and he was in it, and he was really good, and I'm like, wow, that guy's kind of a stud.
Guest:And I met him afterwards, and I cast him in this play, and we worked together, we became friends.
Guest:And then when I was writing Station Agent, I started thinking of him for the role.
Marc:Oh, so you actually... You kind of created it for him.
Marc:Kind of did, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I just hadn't seen it.
Guest:And I thought what I saw in him when I directed him, which I think now the world knows because of Game of Thrones, was that like he was a leading man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was a leading man in a, you know, in an unconventional way.
Guest:And he was just such a deeply soulful actor.
Guest:And I thought, oh my God, if I could capture this in a film and capture.
Guest:And so I started writing for him.
Marc:To transcend dwarfism.
Guest:Yeah, on some level or embrace it or everything.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know, and just be human.
Marc:Humanize it, right.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And you did it.
Marc:Yeah, we did it.
Marc:What play involves Tom Thumb?
Marc:What was the pitch on that?
Guest:It was a play called The Killing Act about the Ford brothers who killed Jesse James coming to New York based on a true story and selling their act, their killing act- To Barnum?
Guest:To Barnum.
Guest:And then what Barnum did was spun it and he sold them not as heroes, but as cowards, which is now most people know them as the cowardly Ford brothers.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And we thought, well, it was a cool comment on fame and all that stuff.
Guest:And it was a crazy, interesting, weird place.
Marc:And you call yourself not an intellectual.
Marc:That's some pretty thinky shit.
Marc:It was, but, you know, we had to pick that story.
Marc:I mean, but that was your own sort of like you.
Marc:It comes from your curiosity that, you know, that, you know, you you find things in the culture that that will that will enable you to execute these explorations of morality and humanity and and and and have a relationship that's kind of juiced up with something.
Marc:Struggle.
Marc:All that sounds great.
Guest:I still wouldn't call me an intellectual.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like you and I know, you know, when we're around real intellectuals, you're like, wow, that guy is a great thinker.
Guest:And I can name many that you're just like, oh, that's a different kind of mind.
Guest:That's a mind that I will never have.
Marc:No, no, absolutely.
Marc:But I guess you're not an intellectual, but but it's but it's.
Marc:That's the artistic brain.
Marc:It's not the intellectual brain.
Marc:But the conversations that will come out of that inspiration in the intellectual circles will be, that's not on you.
Marc:You've done your part to move the ball along.
Guest:I think so.
Marc:I think so.
Guest:And for me, it's a little more enjoyable.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:But I'm just thinking about what does inspire, because I'm thinking about things that I get hung up on.
Marc:Because when I put together an hour of stand-up, I have to think in terms of themes, and I have to feel that there's some engine driving it.
Marc:And I've become obsessed with the difference between what we do in our real lives and what we are reacting to that we put in our heads.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:The disparity is profound.
Marc:And it speaks more to like what we were saying when you sit down with roughnecks as opposed to.
Marc:So there's something really kind of compelling about that lens.
Guest:I think so.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that's just what I'm just using as an example.
Marc:But it's going back to the intellect.
Guest:No, I think you're absolutely right.
Guest:But I think it's like for me, and it sounds like you're the same, like in anything I do, there just needs to be a little bit under the floorboard, something operating that intellectually I can go chase.
Guest:So first draft of Stillwater was a straight up thriller.
Guest:I couldn't find that thing.
Guest:As I reproached it six years later, I had both a point of view and I had questions.
Guest:I had a lot of questions I wanted to sort of explore and ideas I wanted to explore in terms of screenplay.
Guest:Suddenly it started to come alive.
Guest:It was
Marc:interesting to me right but the more you acted because I mean you did a lot of acting before station agent yep here and there yep but then like I mean the I would assume that the wire was a big deal yeah like because I you know I remember that part and I remember watching you in it yep and thinking like you know who's this guy yep
Guest:But that was a- You were thinking, who's this guy?
Guest:I hate this guy.
Guest:I think I was one of the more disliked characters on that show.
Guest:Well, you just saw the evolution of spinelessness.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Right?
Marc:Wasn't that it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I epitomied spinelessness.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In fact, I remember- But not out of the gate, right?
Marc:It's sort of- No, slow.
Marc:Turned.
Marc:Slow and horrible.
Yeah.
Guest:In fact, I was editing my second film, The Visitor, when David Simon called and he offered me that role.
Guest:I had auditioned for a couple other roles in the show and didn't get them.
Guest:And then he called me in that fifth season.
Guest:He's like, I think I have the role for you.
Guest:I think I have something you really connect with.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Now looking back, I was always like, what did Simon see in me?
Guest:I would capture that spinelessness, but he did.
Marc:The same thing Yale did.
Marc:They're like, look at this spineless Irish guy.
Guest:We need guys like this.
Guest:We need guys to puncture out there in the world.
Guest:You're right.
Guest:They see my tragic flaw and they capitalize on it.
Marc:These Irish guys can take a beating.
Marc:Sad.
Marc:It is.
Marc:It's painful.
Marc:The Visitor, that was a great movie.
Marc:Where did the inspiration for that come from?
Guest:I was in the Middle East screening the station agent.
Guest:I was sent by the State Department to screen the station agent with Errol Morris and the fog of war.
Guest:So picture that double bill.
Guest:The station agent and the fog of war.
Guest:The movie about McNamara.
Guest:And so a really weird double bill.
Guest:And I was spending time in Lebanon and I was spending time in these incredible communities of artists, Arab artists, and just thinking like, wow, we're talking a lot about this part of the world and I don't think we know these people anymore.
Guest:Like, I want to write a movie with some of these artists.
Guest:And I started there.
Guest:And then I started thinking about the part that Richard Jenkins played and this professor.
Guest:Same way I was talking about Stillwater, right?
Guest:There's all these little pieces I kind of magpie from in my life.
Guest:And then I started spending more and more time.
Guest:And then I was like, what's going on with detention in this country?
Guest:And this was back in...
Guest:2005 2004 before really talking about it and I signed up through a church yeah in Brooklyn to visit I'm in New York to visit one of these detention facilities yeah, and it was Horrifying and I started that started again sort of a little bit journalistic in my research interviewing Detainees interviewing people who were deported and and started focusing on that and boy did that get worse way worse
Marc:Well, I mean, well, that's interesting, too, that the like what I was talking about at the outset of this thing was that the exposure to other cultures, art and artists.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, as an American who, you know, whether you admit it or not, this sort of weird entitlement.
Marc:And, you know, even if you don't see yourself in that way, there is a kind of.
Marc:perspective, there's something myopic about just being American no matter what you are.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:So, you know, artist or lefty or righty, whatever.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:But, you know, all of a sudden when you're like, oh, my God, there's this entire, like, you know, age-old culture of creativity and expression and history that, you know, I know nothing about and it's enchanting and beautiful and crazy relevant.
Marc:Yep, yep.
Marc:To be open to that is profound, and I think that's what I'm sort of experiencing now, because I'm always open, but you get very kind of stuck in your life.
Marc:What are you letting in?
Marc:You've got to make choices.
Marc:Like, I'm going to go do this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think it's the biggest problem maybe in this country today.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's what I'm saying.
Guest:That people aren't breaking out of their lanes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And look, I'm guilty of it still.
Guest:When I dropped into Oklahoma, I was like, oh man, I in some way felt I understood that place without actually going there, right?
Guest:And like, you know, likewise for them.
Guest:A bunch of these Roughnecks and their family came into New York for the premiere.
Guest:And I had them over the house in Brooklyn.
Guest:Matt came over.
Guest:We had dinner in the backyard.
Guest:Literally had pizza and beer and just hung out.
Guest:And like, you know,
Guest:I realized, like, most of them hadn't been to New York.
Guest:Most of them hadn't, you know, had that experience.
Guest:And it led to this really lovely, late-night, thoughtful conversation about our differences and about our sort of isolation and our sort of siloing in this country.
Guest:And as you said, more with, you know, phones and, you know, the interweb and all those things that divide us.
Guest:And, like, it's gotten pretty critically bad right now.
Marc:Well, what's interesting is that, you know, and I've talked about this with my producer, Brendan McDonald, is that, you know, really the singularity has happened.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It just, you know, I don't know.
Marc:We were expecting something more sci-fi.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But we are now sort of thoroughly appendages of a technological algorithm.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:universe where we're just all being pimped out by algorithms to the point where it's very hard to decipher if we're honoring any of our own desires or pursuing any personal truth or being critical of anything coming in or what that information is.
Marc:It's being tailored to us by machines.
Marc:It's kind of fucking horrendous that you have to kind of consciously go like, all right, I got to mind my mind.
Marc:And who has time to do that?
Guest:Right.
Guest:And who has the sort of rigor to do that?
Guest:Like most people don't even think that way.
Guest:Most people don't even realize it's happening right now.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, I mean, creativity enables you to do that.
Marc:The life of an artist or a creator or it's your responsibility to react to that.
Marc:And we do almost innately.
Marc:There's a pushback.
Marc:Try to step out also.
Marc:Right.
Marc:We're trying to step out.
Marc:You create a world.
Marc:I mean, there's not you have habits.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But ultimately, if you're going to spend six months or a year making a movie, you're not just sitting at home festering about Facebook.
Guest:No.
Guest:No, you're not.
Guest:And you can't really learn anything.
Guest:It's interesting.
Guest:With the pandemic, I had a couple ideas I was starting to work on, and I kept hitting walls.
Guest:And I was like, what the fuck?
Guest:Why am I hitting these walls?
Guest:These are kind of cool ideas.
Marc:Because you're not leaving the house.
Guest:And I'm not interviewing anybody.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I'm not going and sitting.
Guest:Literally, that was it.
Guest:I was doing this whole thing on low power radio.
Guest:I was really interested in low power radio stations.
Guest:And I was listening to these stations around the country, which are super cool.
Guest:And they're like, just great radio stations.
Guest:And I was like, I got stuck in my writing.
Guest:And I was like, what's the matter?
Guest:And I'm like, oh, I'm not actually, I've never been to a low power radio station.
Marc:You mean regional or just local?
Guest:Low power is something that started probably back in, I don't know, 2010-ish when their pirate radio was really, they were trying to halt pirate radio.
Guest:And they started creating low power radio zones, which is, they're like 50 watt stations.
Guest:They reach like a mile or a mile and a half, but they're all over the country right now.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And they're amazing.
Guest:And so some of these radio stations, like I was listening to one in West Virginia, Charleston, West Virginia, which is just like an amazing radio station.
Guest:And just to wake up and put it on and hear these- It's live radio.
Guest:Live radio.
Marc:Playing great music.
Marc:So it's not podcast.
Marc:It's just like, you know- No, they're just in there spinning.
Marc:It's just guys in their backyard.
Guest:Yeah, no.
Guest:They have a station.
Guest:They have a little station or from their home, but they just kind of- And what's the following?
Guest:Imagine it's pretty local, but you know, now I was listening.
Guest:AM band.
Guest:And I started communicating with them.
Guest:And they would communicate back with me and we started that.
Guest:But I couldn't go down there.
Guest:I couldn't sit in a room with them.
Guest:I couldn't get to them.
Guest:I still haven't.
Marc:So what happens now?
Marc:How's the movie doing?
Guest:I think the movie's doing well.
Guest:It's tough, really tough to tell in these times, just because the box office and COVID and who's going and who's not.
Guest:But I think we had a pretty good opening weekend as far as the studio's concerned.
Guest:They're really excited about it.
Guest:They've all been calling me.
Guest:And, you know, the movie's playing really well, and I'm super proud of it, you know?
Guest:I'm super proud of Matt's work in it, the whole cast.
Guest:And I don't know, it's, you know...
Guest:I find these times.
Guest:I love the work.
Guest:I love doing it.
Guest:All this part of it seems a bit beyond me at times.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Now, what are you actively engaged with creatively?
Marc:Is it that radio thing?
Guest:No.
Guest:No, I'm working on a TV project right now, actually, that I sort of started for some reason during COVID, and I'm kind of excited about it, but I don't think I can go deep on it till I know what it is.
Marc:So, but you're sort of like, you're in the groove of it, it's happening?
Marc:A little bit, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And you did that big 13 Reasons Why, right?
Guest:Yeah, you know, a guy I know, it was right after Spotlight, and Brian Yorkey, who's a really talented writer and came out of the musical theater, he reached out to me and just said, hey, I got this thing.
Guest:I don't know how to get it there, and can you help me get it there?
Guest:And we just kind of jumped in together.
Guest:I directed the first couple episodes, and I didn't know it was going to have the impact it did and start the conversation it did, but it kind of blew up.
Marc:Yeah, and what was, because there was a little, like, uh, heat.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, the show focuses on a young woman, the book, the original book on a young woman who commits suicide, and it's a really, obviously, powerful and, uh, topic that a lot of people feel strongly about, and I think it played out when that thing was released.
Marc:Oh, so, right.
Marc:So, oh, I remember.
Marc:So it was like people thought you were glorifying or romanticizing.
Guest:I think so.
Guest:I think some people felt strongly about that and some people didn't.
Guest:Some people thought, especially I think the young people watching the show felt like, no, this is a conversation we're talking about.
Guest:I'm always a fan of having the conversation.
Guest:I think that's more important.
Guest:I think that's our job as artists to kind of promote the conversation.
Marc:No, I absolutely.
Marc:And I think that, you know, there is a an issue about that the dialogue around criticism and around, you know, that as as like I just had a conversation with A.O.
Marc:Scott.
Marc:It was a different conversation.
Marc:But the idea that criticism is supposed to sort of also have its own language around evolution of art, right?
Marc:It's not designed to stifle creativity or to moralize necessarily.
Marc:So there's a risk that if these conversations around what can and can't be said culturally continue to push back creativity, that we deny the exploration of the struggle.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:It shuts down the conversation.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right now, we're seeing this, our society, and look, there's a lot of good happening, but there's a lot of narrow lens focus on certain issues that I think are becoming so explosive for people that artists are feeling more and more tenuous about extending themselves.
Guest:And that's what we need to do.
Guest:I'm a white middle-aged guy.
Guest:I need to go explore other cultures and ideas to expand and hopefully to bring myself to that conversation.
Guest:And it's tricky to do, I think, right now, because there's just so many landmines.
Guest:And I feel like that is making it, you know, it's something a lot of us are talking about all the time.
Guest:What we have the right to do, what we can talk about, what the pushback is.
Guest:It's an incredibly tenuous time.
Marc:Well, the artist is stuck in the middle of a strange kind of viral explosion of particular public opinion.
Marc:It might even be a minority situation on a platform that does not have a global impact or impact even nationally.
Marc:But it is antagonizing enough for the corporate overseers who facilitate the making of the work to be nervous.
Marc:So then, you know, the artist is stuck in the middle of like, well, fuck, if the studio is going to get pissed off because this thing is blowing up, I, you know, I believe my vision, you know, can transcend this and will add to the conversation.
Marc:But now we're stuck in this other, I'm in the middle of a conversation that has nothing to do with what I'm doing.
Marc:Which, which is the, which is trying to have the conversation.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Which is trying to engage with the ideas.
Guest:And like, it's, it, I,
Guest:I talk to so many writers and filmmakers who are feeling that pressure right now.
Guest:And it's coming from all sides.
Guest:And I think as artists, we're always trying to liberate ourselves.
Guest:There's a courage to driving into ideas knowing we're not going to get everything right.
Guest:You never do.
Guest:You know, that's not our job to get it right.
Guest:It's our job to kind of have the conversation, to explore things, to be curious and to push people to sort of look at themselves and look at others and think differently.
Guest:But with that, you need to make mistakes.
Guest:And I think we're getting to a place in this culture.
Guest:It feels sometimes to me that like making mistakes can be critical and people are ready to jump on people who make mistakes.
Guest:That's, I think, can become problematic in the forefront.
Guest:Yeah, like...
Guest:Told you!
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I think that's why a lot of people just like to do their work and not talk that much.
Guest:It's why sometimes in even these situations, just us throwing ideas around, it's a different time than it was 10 years ago.
Guest:I mean, do you feel it on your show?
Guest:Do you feel a reticence, a hesitancy, a pressure, either from yourself, probably not at this point, but from guests coming on?
Guest:I'm curious.
Guest:Like, can you feel people...
Marc:Yeah, sometimes.
Marc:And I'm certainly sensitive to some of it.
Marc:But the weird thing is, I think generally a responsible artist with some sensitivity knows what's correct and what isn't.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And is sensitive to real issues versus reactive issues.
Marc:But alongside of that, it's so easily to be misinterpreted.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:So it becomes tricky to even have a conversation about certain things.
Guest:I think so.
Guest:And I'll go a step further than that.
Guest:Like things are changing.
Guest:Language is changing, right?
Guest:Language is the word allowed to do.
Marc:It always does.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so, and you're right.
Guest:And we're going to misspeak and we're going to say things.
Guest:We have to evolve.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:And we have to evolve.
Guest:But the problem is if the punishment is so swift and severe that making those mistakes sort of overrides the evolution, then I think we're in a really bad situation.
Guest:Then we're not growing in a healthy way.
Guest:We're not expanding and exploring.
Guest:We're sort of in a defensive posture.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Well, people, like, if they want people to change, they've got to learn.
Marc:You've got to make mistakes.
Marc:And it's like, okay, examples can be made, but then we have to continue learning.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And growing.
Marc:Yeah, and most people will, given the chance.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Especially if they're not public people.
Guest:Yeah, if you give the... Exactly.
Guest:If you give them a second chance, but I think we're, I don't know, it just feels like it's such a harsh climate right now.
Guest:You can feel it, you know, and I feel like some of it is because of the isolation and the lack of human connection sitting across from each other.
Marc:But also some of it is, you know, dealing with personal trauma.
Marc:Like I talked about grief, unresolved grief earlier.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That like what any individual is carrying with them and how that manifests in their behavior, what they want to cause out in the world, especially if they're not creative and they just want to start shit because they're sad and angry.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That, you know, that I think accounts for a lot.
Marc:like a lack of personal, not responsibility, but ability to deal with their own- What's going on.
Marc:Yeah, in themselves.
Marc:And I think that's a lot of what the movie's about.
Guest:I think so.
Guest:I think if you don't, that's where sort of generational trauma and generational decay starts.
Guest:And I think that's what happens in families and in communities and even in countries.
Guest:And I think right now we're at a point in this country where we're having a reckoning.
Right.
Marc:Yeah, and some days I'm hopeful, some days I'm not.
Guest:Yeah, that's the game.
Guest:It feels like we're right on the brink some days.
Marc:Yeah, but I found a lot of hope in terms of creativity, having some power in the world with your movie and with Pig, and then watching the...
Guest:Underground Railroad and then the indigenous stuff i'm like you know like these are the voices yeah yeah yeah it feels like it's all part of a similar conversation from all different angles and you know there's great representation and just what you just cited right there and exciting representation in the best way that's that's not sort of it's it's organic it's just it's just like artists having their moment you know like sterling having his moment having a chance to find
Marc:But you also have to want to go look.
Marc:You want to go see.
Marc:It's like you when you were in the Middle East and you were like, oh my God.
Marc:In Arab country, wherever it is, I don't do it enough.
Marc:Just to hear the other voices.
Guest:Literally, probably, Mark is the favorite part of my job, is those early days of research, of diving in, of geeking out of something, of learning, of reading.
Guest:of like when I'm there being pressed, of going home and researching, going back.
Guest:There's just a quality of it where there's a journalistic approach to it, which I just totally, totally find completely compelling.
Guest:I always think if I don't make this, this has been great.
Marc:Right, because it's a discovery that it's going to feed everything in your life.
Marc:It's everything.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Great talking to you, man.
Marc:Really great talking.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Thanks, buddy.
Marc:Tom McCarthy, that was a great talk.
Marc:I enjoy that guy, and I got very moved.
Marc:Between us, we were talking about Lynn after the interview on the porch, and I fucking started crying.
Marc:I guess that doesn't stop, the crying in front of people you don't know that well.
Marc:Crying in front of strangers entirely, even.
Marc:Now I will play some murky music on my little neck guitar.
guitar solo
Guest:Boomer lives.
Guest:Monkey and La Fonda.
Guest:Cat angels everywhere, man.