Episode 1248 - Lindsey Buckingham
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my show my podcast wtf welcome to it if you're new here is anyone new here if you could just stand up please and you want to say your name and where you're from
Marc:Welcome.
Marc:Nice.
Marc:Great.
Marc:Thanks for coming.
Marc:Thanks for being here.
Marc:We appreciate it.
Marc:Always welcome.
Marc:Always welcome in your house or in your car or at the gym or walking your doggies, wherever you are.
Marc:Are you at the beach?
Marc:Are you looking out at the ocean right now, wistfully wondering what's going to happen in the future of this planet?
Marc:Thinking like, wow, there's so much water.
Marc:Why can't we live in it?
Marc:Wow, there's so much beautiful horizon here.
Marc:Why can't we find peace and make the world a better place environmentally and as a species?
Marc:Why?
Marc:Look at this beautiful water, this big ocean that has no judgment, that has no point of view other than it knows in its heart, in the soul, and the throbbing core of the planet that it is being judged.
Marc:destroyed and dumped in and full of garbage because of us so when you're looking at that ocean make sure you know that it's looking back at you saying you fuck you're part of it yeah i don't care how you feel all good you feel all mushy inside you feel like maybe there's hope or you're reflecting on your life you ruined it you did
Marc:You did, you and your holding hands with your loved one there on the beach, you fucked it up.
Marc:You running with your kids at the edge of me, you fucked it all up.
Marc:And now your kids are going to have to live in it, you fucking idiots.
Marc:You and your boat, you fucked it.
Marc:You pulling more fish than you should out of me, go fuck yourself.
Marc:Is it worth it?
Marc:Is it worth it?
Marc:How many of those oysters are going to turn into garbage?
Marc:How much of that fish isn't going to get eaten?
Marc:You think it's just disposable because we make more in this ocean?
Marc:Good luck with it.
Marc:Pretty soon, there's just going to be garbage, mutated fucking jellyfish in this fucking inside of me.
Marc:Yeah, what are you going to do now?
Marc:Oh, look at the ocean.
Marc:Isn't it pretty?
Marc:The ocean is so pretty, isn't it?
Marc:Makes me feel warm inside.
Marc:Go fuck yourself, said the great man of the sea, said Neptune, said the deep sea monsters.
Marc:Go fuck yourself.
Marc:How's it going?
Marc:I have Lindsey Buckingham on the show today.
Marc:Lindsey Buckingham from Fleetwood Mac.
Marc:Man, do you realize the impact he's had on all of our lives?
Marc:Do you?
Marc:Do you think about it?
Marc:Maybe not everybody.
Marc:I don't know who, really.
Marc:And maybe some of you will think, like, what's Maringan soft?
Marc:No, no.
Marc:I just have some recollections perhaps I'll share with you.
Marc:I haven't decided yet.
Marc:So...
Marc:Lindsey Buckingham is an amazing guitar player, an amazing singer and an amazing songwriter.
Marc:And I'm not blowing smoke.
Marc:That's a reality.
Marc:That is quantitative, a quantitative reality.
Marc:It's been decided by the world, by the universe, by the ocean.
Marc:Now, what I didn't realize, like a few years ago, he put out a solo record with a song.
Marc:I think it was called Shut Us Down.
Marc:And it just it was part of the rotation in my my post separation divorce mix.
Marc:It's a very heavy hearted song, but it made me feel better.
Marc:It was comforting, but not hopeful.
Marc:But I loved it.
Marc:Like as he's gotten older, he's allowed himself to be expressive with the voice he has at the age he's at.
Marc:And it's kind of amazing.
Marc:But going back.
Marc:Like you think of rumors, you think of that fucking record.
Marc:But like, what do you associate with rumors?
Marc:Like I went back and listened to the solo Buckingham Knicks record, which I happen to have.
Marc:It's not that easy to find.
Marc:And I was able to track his his tone because he was he was the de facto leader of that band.
Marc:I know it's Mick Fleetwood's band, but that band for its entire existence has as sort of defaulted to the guitar player's personality and style.
Marc:Now, I don't know anything about the Bob Welch years.
Marc:For some reason, I just don't do it.
Marc:But Peter Green, the blues years, it changed my life.
Marc:And then if you look at Lindsay's time, which was basically the self-titled Fleetwood Mac 75, 1975 album, Rumors and Tusk, because that's sort of what I stuck with with Lindsay.
Marc:Now.
Marc:do you realize how many hits are on that self-titled one the fleetwood mac 1975 because i don't know where to put these but you when you start to research these things you're like jesus man that record 1975 so how old were you what was i 12 it's got monday morning you show look fine and reanion and over my head over my head
Marc:I know all those songs.
Marc:That's crazy, right?
Marc:I mean, they're kind of pounded into your head.
Marc:They're in the wiring.
Marc:They're all great songs.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And Lindsay had something to do with a lot of them.
Marc:Maybe most of them.
Marc:I could actually tell you exactly which ones, but we don't need to do that.
Marc:And then you move up to rumors, 1977.
Marc:So at that point, I'm 14.
Marc:How old are you?
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know, those songs, right?
Marc:Of course you do.
Guest:Don't stop thinking about tomorrow.
Guest:Go your own way.
Guest:Go your own way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Never break the chain, never break the chain, never break the chain.
Guest:Oh, daddy.
Guest:Gold does a woman.
Marc:Huge records.
Marc:mega records lindsey was all about you know the collaboration but lindsey was like at the heart of a lot of that christy mcvee and stevie you know and then the rhythm section which is the namesake of the band but for me rumors means brush ranch brush ranch was a camp i went to in the pecos in new mexico okay and
Marc:I remember that there was a dance at Brush Ranch and I just had this massive crush on this girl named Karen McKibben.
Marc:And, you know, I just remember her singing along with Secondhand News and I thought it was so heartbreaking and sweet.
Marc:And I just I just had the biggest crush on her.
Marc:But I didn't really know what to do.
Marc:I don't know what to do.
Marc:And then she ended up like hanging out with Andy Stone.
Marc:You know, when I was younger, I could never really seal the deal.
Marc:I just fell into myself and or, you know, made a mess.
Marc:You know how that goes.
Marc:But I do remember that dance at Brush Ranch in 1977, dancing to Secondhand News, which is a hard song to dance to.
Marc:But I just remember looking, watching, dancing with Karen McKibben, and she was singing along to it.
Marc:And the song moved me, but there was something about her singing it that kind of never left my memory.
Marc:Like there was a depth to it.
Marc:It added depth to her, and it made me have some sort of strange empathy.
Marc:And want to be there for that person.
Marc:But again, it was not our destiny.
Marc:I don't know what happened to her.
Marc:It's so long ago.
Marc:1977.
Marc:How long ago was that?
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:So it was great to sit down with Lindsay.
Marc:He was very accessible.
Marc:And he's a great guitar player.
Marc:A great songwriter.
Marc:And a good guy.
Marc:Great singer.
Marc:Anyways, his new album...
Marc:lindsey buckingham self-titled comes out on september 17th he's going on tour to support the album and this is me talking to uh the one and only lindsey buckingham
Marc:Do you ever use those in the studio, these things?
Guest:I don't, actually.
Guest:You know, I sort of... Because, you know, I basically do everything myself in the studio on the solo albums.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I'm like a one-mic guy.
Guest:You only need... Unless you're going to... Sometimes I've tracked down there with a drummer, but, you know.
Marc:Right, you don't do the drums.
Guest:Well, I do, though.
Guest:I mean, like on the new album, it was like just playing it off a keyboard.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you don't have any problem with the idea of that not being drums?
Guest:No, not really.
Guest:Not as a philosophy.
Guest:But, you know, it does present certain problems.
Guest:I had to sort of talk myself down.
Guest:I mean, there's like one song in particular that's very sort of rock and roll.
Guest:And it doesn't have a drum feel in there because I just thought.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I had to, you know.
Guest:And rationalize that away and say, well, you know, Empire of the Sun never does drum fills.
Guest:So it was sort of like that.
Marc:You just have to frame it correctly.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Marc:So you can move on.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So I was listening.
Marc:I was trying to catch up or not catch up, just re-listen to it.
Marc:I think we could probably talk a half an hour about the packaging of the Tusk record.
Guest:Okay, whatever I can remember.
Marc:No, I mean, it's just like there's sleeves within sleeves.
Marc:I know.
Marc:There's a lot of artwork.
Marc:Everything from rumors on, all the records seem like there's drama, some sort of classical ballet poses and theater things going on.
Guest:Well, there always was the theater, especially with Stevie, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think she brought a little of that, you know, in and it influenced Christine very slightly and perhaps even Mick.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But there's no getting around the fact that once we had that ridiculous success with Rumors where the...
Guest:You know, the success at some point detached from the music and became about the success.
Marc:Yeah, I was wondering, like, also, I kind of want to build up to this.
Marc:But it literally, it struck me because I'm a Fleetwood Mac fan of the Peter Green years.
Marc:Oh, as am I. Sure.
Marc:I don't know anything about the Welch years.
Marc:Zero.
Marc:I know there's like four or five albums.
Marc:And for some reason, I put them on.
Marc:I just can't listen to them.
Marc:I can listen to Kiln House before I can listen to Bob Welch.
Guest:Yes, I had Kiln House, and I had then play on, and I'm with you on the stuff that came after that, because what happened was, you know, Danny Kerwin started to recede into the background, and Bob Welch came in, and Christine had come in on Kiln House, which was fine, but...
Guest:But then they kept, you know, I mean, I give Mick a ton of credit for doing whatever he had to do to keep the band going.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I also give Mo Austin a lot of credit for keeping them on the label when they probably were not making Werner's a whole lot of money.
Guest:I mean, they didn't, I don't think they, did they have one hit with Welch?
Guest:i well i don't know it was maybe hypnotized i'm not really sure but minimal and um and beyond that each album was a different lineup and so there was they were all non-sequiturs yeah and so there was no way to get sort of a flow like who who are these people and it's kind of tricky when your band is really a rhythm section
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:I mean, ultimately, because because that's one of the things I noticed was that, you know, rhythm section is still just a rhythm section.
Marc:So, like, whoever is going to be the front man, it's on some level, it's going to be their band.
Guest:That is correct.
Guest:And there were a lot of band leaders in Hollywood Mac.
Guest:And yet, ironically, behind the scenes and to some degree in terms of the essence and the soul of the intent of the band, Mick was always the constant.
Marc:Well, he was the backbone, literally, of the music.
Guest:And without him, they wouldn't have stayed together.
Guest:And without him, you know, he was...
Guest:focused but also kind of wildly intuitive enough to hear me play guitar on one of the Buckingham Knicks tracks and based only on that ask me to join Fleetwood Mac I have that record which is not easy to find it's kind of a rare record yes it is
Marc:Yeah, but I have it.
Guest:We've talked about re-releasing it, but politics seem to enter into it.
Guest:What do you mean?
Marc:What would it take?
Marc:I mean, they do it for Record Store Day or something.
Guest:It would just take Stevie and me being in the same mood at the same time.
Marc:But let's go going back.
Marc:I mean, because you're a style like I like whatever's happening now.
Marc:Whenever you decided like there was a couple of solo albums where you were doing dance music, doing something of the time production wise.
Marc:But now it's gotten almost eerie in how you capture your vocals.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You know, which is, you know, it gives it sort of a weight where, to the point where that, you know, almost shut me down, shut us down, shut us down, that song.
Marc:Like I, you know, when I divorced my second wife, like I couldn't fucking stop listening to that song and I was like, oh my God, is this good or bad for me?
Marc:You know, this feeling that I was getting from it.
Marc:Right, yeah.
Marc:But I always have this problem and I think we talked about it at Largo where I assume that when I listen to someone do their singing and their songwriting, I'm like, he's going through the same thing.
Marc:It must be a difficult time for Lindsay.
Marc:I don't know what's happening, but I appreciate it.
Guest:Well, you know, I think in a lot of ways, my songwriting and my approach to record making changed dramatically once I got married and had children because it was a whole new landscape to draw from and a whole new set of challenges in terms of a relationship that, you know, obviously marriage presents a great number of
Guest:sort of quirks and compromises.
Marc:I like your post-divorce searching for a diplomatic word to describe.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:So, you know, and there had also been a long period of time between the solo album I had done in 92, Out of the Cradle.
Guest:Right.
Guest:and then you know i got drawn back into fleetwood mac because i made out of the cradle while i had decided to leave the band for reasons of survival yeah because the band was just such a crazy circus of drugs and and uh lack of focus at that time so that was like okay so after tusk you're like i you know i'm not gonna live
Guest:Well, you know, no, it was not after Tusk, and it was after Tango in the Night in 1987.
Guest:And I did produce the Tango in the Night album, and I think we prevailed in making a great album despite the circumstances.
Marc:The circumstances being chaos and drugs.
Guest:Chaos, yeah, and not seeing certain members more than maybe a few weeks out of the year it took to do.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Mick living in a trailer in my front yard.
Guest:Why was he doing that?
Guest:Well, because he couldn't drive home at night.
Marc:So you just put it on the budget?
Guest:Yeah, the budget was quite forgiving back then.
Guest:So when it came time to contemplate that scenario and those challenges on the road, which is usually about times 10 what goes on in the studio, I just said to myself, I've got to take a break here.
Marc:And you were married already.
Guest:No, I was not married.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:Marriage didn't come until like 2000.
Marc:Did you sober up totally?
Guest:I didn't stop drinking until about the time I...
Guest:the joke here is uh wait what time is it yeah right um no no no it was um about the time my my first child was oh yeah and i just you know wanted to be a consistent presence and wanted to uh i just i just didn't need it anymore i i mean thank god i'd gotten all of that out of my system and i just stopped one day how old are your kids now
Guest:my oldest and i started late right you know so my oldest is 23 my son and i have two daughters who are 21 and 17 oh wow so so they're they're through it they're through the tunnel they are indeed and boy does it go fast right does it i don't know i don't have any it's uh it's crazy because you think of them as these you know uh these little creatures that have unconditional love and then one day they go in their room and close the door and
Marc:They don't like you anymore for a couple of years.
Guest:Or maybe ever.
Guest:You never know, depending on the breaks.
Marc:How was Europe?
Marc:Where were you brought up?
Guest:I was brought up in Northern California.
Guest:That's beautiful.
Guest:Atherton.
Marc:Oh, that's nice.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, having Palo Alto and Stanford there and not just the intellectual...
Guest:bent that Stanford brought to the whole area, but also the research that they were doing there.
Guest:And this obviously predates the Silicon Valley.
Marc:Was your father in that kind of world?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:He was in the coffee business.
Guest:The coffee business?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Early on?
Marc:Early adapter?
Marc:How was he in the coffee business?
Guest:Well, he had a label that had been started by my mom's
Guest:A label.
Guest:A coffee label.
Marc:So like something you buy in the store.
Guest:Yes, a commercial label.
Guest:People wouldn't know his coffee.
Guest:It came up at the same time as Hills Brothers and Folgers and all those kind of commercial brands that still exist.
Guest:What's the name of the brand?
Guest:The brand is Alta Coffee.
Guest:Alta.
Guest:And it did quite well through maybe the early 60s.
Guest:And then it began to sort of take a bit of a nosedive as a company, you know.
Guest:And so at some point, you know, it just shut down altogether.
Marc:Did he retire?
Marc:Well, he passed away, actually.
Guest:He was still working at the coffee company.
Marc:How old was he?
Guest:He was not old.
Guest:He was like 56.
Guest:That's scary.
Guest:I know.
Guest:How old were you?
Guest:What was I?
Guest:21.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:So was it a heart attack kind of situation?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So do you get checked up?
Marc:You good?
Guest:I do.
Guest:I mean, one of the things that has happened in the last few years is I ended up going in and having a bypass myself, which was a lifesaver.
Marc:It was a preemptive bypass.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Good for you.
Marc:They caught it, huh?
Guest:Well, I mean, you never know.
Marc:You just went in for a checkup?
Marc:Did you have chest symptoms?
Guest:Well, I had some chest symptoms, and I went in, and the next thing I remember, my wife going, hey, you just had a bypass.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:So that was fun.
Guest:Just one?
Guest:No, like a triple, I think.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:But, you know, it runs in the family.
Guest:But, you know, I also have a brother who passed away much younger, even 44.
Guest:From a heart attack?
Guest:From a heart attack.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:But I have an older brother who is like 78 who is great.
Guest:Nothing?
Guest:No heart problems?
Guest:It's a roll of the dice.
Marc:That's for sure.
Marc:So your old man's in the coffee business.
Marc:You got these two brothers.
Marc:You're in Palo Alto.
Marc:Now, like, that must be around the time that there was a folk scene there.
Marc:What was going on musically for you when you were coming up there?
Guest:Well, I'm in high school.
Guest:And, of course, you know, you've got to sort of predate that time.
Guest:You know, my whole interest in music was predicated on my older brother bringing home Elvis Presley records.
Marc:That's always the portal.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It is.
Guest:And if you're old enough to have, you know, because the music that existed that you called popular music or the music that was in our household was music our parents listened to.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:So you graduated high school when?
Guest:1967.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:So that was like right before everything turned upside down.
Marc:But you remember when you were a kid, your brother bringing home like the first few Elvis records?
Guest:Well, he was a huge fan and he bought everything from all the great early rock and roll, you know, Chuck Perry and Jerry Lee Lewis and Johnny Cash, everything.
Guest:And I was the beneficiary of that because I suddenly wanted to teach myself to play guitar.
Marc:You taught yourself?
Guest:I did.
Guest:And so by the time I got to high school, and I had no ambition to be a rock and roller.
Marc:When did you start teaching yourself guitar?
Guest:About age six.
Guest:I just got a chord book.
Marc:Oh, that was how it went.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I learned songs, you know.
Marc:But you never took a lesson of any kind?
Marc:Never in my life.
Marc:That's crazy.
Marc:You know, it's interesting to me because you're such a... You have...
Marc:totally your own style.
Marc:There's no denying, if you hear Lindsey Buckingham playing on a song and you hear the song and you're like, who is that?
Marc:That's Lindsey Buckingham.
Marc:Of course it is.
Marc:No one plays like you.
Marc:And I wonder if that's because you had to put it together on your own.
Guest:It's probably because there was no sense of right or wrong, you know?
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:And some of that is also the things that were profoundly influential.
Guest:You know, you started off with rock and roll, and then when the first wave of rock and roll kind of started to— Who was the big influence guitar-wise when you were a kid?
Marc:Was it Chuck or—
Guest:No, more like a Scotty Moore who used a pick and his fingers.
Guest:Sure, Elvis' guy, right?
Guest:Or Chet Atkins who played on so many great studio sessions.
Guest:Wow, yeah.
Guest:And then when that started to die down, looking for something fresh, that's when folk music took over for me.
Guest:And it was very mainstream initially.
Guest:At that time?
Guest:It was like the Kingston Trio.
Guest:Like in later high school for you?
Guest:No, more like eighth grade, you know, and like 1962 or three or something like that.
Guest:And so, you know, that that's where the all the finger picking style that is so recognizable.
Guest:You learned that?
Guest:You just learned that yourself?
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:And so many of the-
Guest:And blew everybody's mind and redefined rock and roll and redefined the world in so many ways.
Marc:It's so weird because when I listen to even I think maybe on the most recent record, but certainly in the last few solo records, there's always a few tunes on there that could categorically be called folk music.
Guest:And there is one in particular that's a cover of an old song by the Pozo Seco singers called Time, which was from, I'm guessing, 1965, maybe.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is that on the new one?
Guest:It is.
Guest:It's on the new one.
Guest:So, you know, all of that existed for me.
Guest:I don't know if culturally in Palo Alto and in the Bay Area, folk was so prevalent.
Guest:But what was prevalent was obviously what started happening in San Francisco after that.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And so, you know, the Summer of Love and the hippies and- And you were in high school.
Guest:In the Fillmore.
Marc:Or just out of high school.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Well, and I was never in a band.
Guest:I never wanted to be- But did you go hang out?
Guest:Not so much.
Guest:You know, I had my craft, which I sort of kept to myself.
Guest:I mean, people knew I played, but it wasn't something that I defined myself as.
Marc:So you didn't go over the bridge and go to the park and do the thing?
Guest:No, I hadn't deprogrammed because I think there were expectations probably for me to do something a little more on the straight and narrow.
Marc:Was your mom a professional person?
Guest:She was not.
Guest:And they were always very supportive.
Guest:I found myself in a band because a drummer friend of mine had asked me to play guitar just for a high school assembly our senior year.
Guest:And that turned into something that we, after the summer, when I was at junior college the next fall, that we decided we wanted to keep going.
Marc:What were the songs?
Marc:What were you playing?
Guest:Well, I don't know.
Guest:We had a guy who played keyboard who wrote a lot of the material.
Guest:Oh, you're doing originals?
Guest:We were doing originals.
Guest:At the assembly?
Guest:And we were doing, we did an original at the assembly.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Was it like psychedelic stuff?
Guest:It was kind of more Yardbirds kind of thing.
Guest:Oh, yeah, sure.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But pretty good, his early stuff especially.
Guest:And then it did get more psychedelic and maybe we sort of lost the focus of what we were doing.
Marc:Is the guy still a musician?
Yeah.
Guest:Well, he's still around.
Guest:His name's Javier Pacheco.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Stevie was in that band.
Guest:We needed a singer.
Guest:In high school?
Guest:Freshman year of college, yes.
Guest:That's when you met her?
Guest:I actually did meet her in high school.
Guest:She came to my high school when she was a senior.
Guest:She transferred in because her dad moved around all the time.
Guest:He was a very ambitious businessman.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:who worked for Lucky Lager and then later for Dial Soap as an executive, and that required him to keep relocating.
Guest:And so Stevie showed up.
Guest:She's a year older, so I was a junior.
Guest:She was a senior, but we definitely connected even back then.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:I didn't know it went back that far.
Guest:Yeah, and then she went off to San Mateo Junior College, and I stayed in high school, and then I saw her again the next year, and we were looking for a singer, and someone said, what about Stevie?
Guest:Because she was already known to be a good singer.
Marc:Because she had sung where?
Guest:You know, Young Life meetings, things like that.
Guest:Assemblies, maybe.
Marc:I can't even imagine.
Marc:There's a sweetness to the, because I don't know this story, obviously.
Marc:I just know the story starting at Sound City.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then the rest of it just seems like a struggle.
Right.
Guest:Well, you know, when I look back on all of those early days now- In high school or before?
Guest:Well, no, no.
Guest:From the time that we formed a band and started to play.
Guest:By the way, my mom and dad were so supportive of that band, even though they didn't want me to be a professional musician.
Marc:What was the name of the band?
Marc:Fritz.
Marc:Did you lay down any tracks?
Guest:We did at one point later on and with the intent of perhaps shopping them to get a deal, but we were never successful.
Guest:It was like, you know.
Guest:So when you look back.
Guest:Well, when I look back,
Guest:on the, let's say, four years that we were together as a band, because we all were in college.
Guest:Fritz.
Guest:Fritz, and we all decided to drop out of college pretty much...
Guest:Actually, Stevie stayed at San Jose State, but the rest of us dropped out.
Guest:And we were working every weekend, two shows a weekend, and we had a guy named David Forrest, who was our manager, who was very effective at keeping things going and keeping us above water, and was not effective at getting Fritz a deal, and Fritz probably was not worthy of a deal necessarily, but...
Guest:Through that, we did go down and expose ourselves to some record people.
Guest:In L.A.?
Marc:In L.A.
Marc:Were you and Stevie in a relationship at this point?
Marc:No, no.
Marc:Only after... You were just pals?
No.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Only after Fritz broke up.
Guest:And one of the reasons that we became a couple was because when we did go to L.A.
Guest:as Fritz, there was not a lot of interest in the band, but there was interest in Stevie and me.
Guest:Someone saw that there was, you know, something going on with these two here.
Marc:And so... Like chemistry?
Yeah.
Guest:a chemistry or maybe they just sensed that they heard us singing together and who knows.
Guest:But that drove us to sort of rethink our self-identity as a duet.
Guest:And then we went back up to Northern California and I worked on, and I had never written songs before, but I said, I guess I gotta start writing songs.
Guest:So I tried to figure out how to write songs.
Guest:And Stevie was already a pretty great writer.
Guest:So I worked on, I had gotten with a little bit of money I had inherited an old Ampex 4-track, AG440 4-track.
Guest:And I took it up to my dad's coffee plant and at night I would drive up to Daly City and I would work doing basically what I still do, which is doing the Les Paul thing where you play everything and you figure out how to make it sound like a record.
Marc:Did you have a drum kit up there?
Guest:No, but we basically got a group of songs and then did the same process with David Forrest in L.A.
Guest:The manager.
Guest:Yes, and we did get a deal eventually.
Guest:For Buckingham Knicks.
Guest:Yes, and so I guess what I'm trying to say is when I look back on all of that leading up to...
Guest:Even the whole Buckingham Knicks time, which on one level was a disappointment because we did this album and it came out and nothing much happened and the record company and our managers sort of lost interest in us.
Guest:It still led to Mick hearing me.
Marc:The fact is, I listened to that record yesterday and...
Marc:You know, there are ways of phrasing and ways, you know, both musically and lyrically and styles that, you know, that stayed with you throughout.
Guest:Of course.
Marc:I mean, on some level, you know, your time in Fleetwood Mac was a continuation of a vision that you had established of.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:We brought much of what we were at that point, and that was kind of written and sewn into Fleetwood Mac.
Guest:It's crazy to me.
Guest:And changed Fleetwood Mac forever.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So so this record, you know, what was now looking back on it, because, you know, I kind of I've talked to musicians about this stuff before.
Marc:Now, what did you see as a single on that record?
Guest:Well, that was a problem because there was not an obvious single.
Marc:Because that's what I was trying to figure out, like, what went wrong with this?
Marc:Was it a promotional problem or there was nothing that had a hook clear enough to call it a single?
Guest:Well, you know, what was ironic about that was that we started playing some dates with opening for other people.
Guest:Poco is one group I remember.
Guest:In the South, mainly in Florida and in Alabama and regional places.
Yeah.
Guest:and suddenly we were starting to get airplay on the radio with the song of mine called Don't Let Me Down Again.
Guest:That happened.
Marc:That falls into that realm of soft rock, right?
Guest:It does.
Guest:Well, it's actually a little harder.
Guest:Which one is it?
Guest:It's got a riff.
Guest:It goes... Oh, the blues number almost.
Marc:Yeah, it's kind of a country thing.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I always thought because it got a lot of play in Florida that maybe... A little southern rock hook.
Guest:Yeah, and maybe even Eric Clapton thought of that for Motherless Children a little bit.
Guest:Oh, his version of that.
Guest:Because they're sort of similar.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:The point is that it made it sort of a tough decision to join Fleetwood Mac because we had this sort of sense that maybe something was actually going to happen, and maybe it would have.
Guest:We had to make an adult decision if that was something that was even...
Marc:So that record comes out in like 73, right?
Guest:That sounds right, yeah.
Marc:So like, I can't even, it's really hard for me to think back, like the early 70s, it was still pretty heavy rock, right?
Marc:Mostly around?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And how were things changing?
Marc:I mean, in terms of your decision to take up Mick on this thing, and at this point you and Stevie are a couple?
Guest:Yes, we are.
Guest:But we are having problems.
Marc:Immediately.
Guest:I mean, we had had problems even before I met Mick.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We'd been together quite a long time.
Guest:It seemed fairly effortless, and it didn't seem that difficult.
Guest:It seemed like things were sort of leading up to this other thing in a way.
Guest:When I look back on it, it feels sort of like, you know, we couldn't see it.
Guest:It was right in front of our face.
Guest:Organic?
Guest:It's organic and not difficult because we got down to L.A.
Guest:as a duet and we did get a deal.
Guest:We did make an album.
Guest:And yes, we were in the throes of trying to figure out what to do in a sort of post-release environment.
Guest:But then Mick shows up.
Marc:But that record, I mean, you had... You must have...
Marc:I mean, you had a lot of the LA studio crew around on that record, right?
Marc:Waddy played guitar.
Guest:Waddy.
Marc:Keltner on drums.
Guest:Keltner played a lot of drums.
Guest:Ronnie Tatt played some drums.
Guest:Jerry Schiff.
Marc:So that was all through the label?
Guest:No, those were people that we gravitated to.
Guest:And I think Keith Olsen, who co-produced that album.
Guest:And again, without Keith, we wouldn't be here because Keith was the one who said, Stevie and I figured, well, if we really want to get serious about this, we've got to move from...
Guest:you know the bay area and be in la and keith was like a big guy big producer well he was a pretty successful producer and but more than that he was just a really generous guy uh-huh and we didn't know him that well but but he was entrepreneurial and he was also very human about being entrepreneurial and he said come down you can live at my house for a while uh-huh and we did we were there for months so he knew all these guys
Guest:And he knew Waddy, he introduced me to Waddy, and I think we sort of threw other names out.
Marc:Did he have that hair then, Waddy?
Guest:Oh yeah, he's never had anything else that I've seen.
Guest:I'm sure when he was in eighth grade.
Marc:What makes him such an adaptable guitar player?
Marc:When you play with Waddy, can you define, can you feel what his style is?
Guest:Well, I think he's just someone who is, like, superbly appreciative of what people do and the nuance of what they do.
Guest:In fact, you know, I would say Wadi more than anyone, because we used to hang out almost every day back before Fleetwood Mac.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And he was the guy who turned me on to late Beach Boys.
Guest:He was the guy who basically taught me how to listen in that way.
Marc:The new big brother.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:To take it apart.
Guest:And, of course, I was a very intent listener to Elvis.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:In my own way, but but not so much.
Guest:Let's, you know, let's let's look at the architecture here and, you know, that kind of stuff.
Guest:He was superb at being able to appreciate that.
Guest:And I think it just showed in his playing, you know.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And he and he he he hipped you to a lot of different stuff.
Guest:He did.
Guest:And, you know, together we, you know, because we had similar tastes and similar reference points.
Guest:You know, he was a couple of years older.
Guest:So, you know, he just from New York.
Marc:What was some of this stuff?
Marc:Do you remember that stuff that kind of changed your way of seeing or hearing things?
Marc:Because, like, sometimes I listen to your rhythms and I don't know where they come from.
Guest:Well, I think they come from, again, a lack of having been taught what's correct.
Marc:But some of it seems kind of primal in a way, and some of it seems kind of almost pre-blues-based, that there's a momentum to it.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Did you listen to any of those earlier blues dudes?
No.
Guest:I did not.
Guest:I would say blues, generally speaking, was not something that hit home for me in a way.
Guest:I mean, I... You've done some blues numbers.
Guest:I have.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know... You have to, you know, it's a thing we do.
Guest:Well, you know...
Guest:Sometimes it's defined by another writer.
Guest:Christine, for sure, is more based in the blues.
Guest:And, of course, John McPhee has the blues breakers and all of that.
Guest:And Mick.
Guest:And Mick, that's true.
Marc:He plays great shuffle blues.
Guest:He does.
Guest:They all come from that.
Guest:And I really came from something...
Marc:Yeah, something in your bedroom.
Guest:Way more California, you know.
Marc:But how about, does it go back further?
Marc:I mean, did you listen to any kind of African music or world music?
Marc:Or you just kind of gravitated towards this.
Marc:There's a run.
Marc:There's a way that you do rhythm that seems kind of unique, and I don't know where it comes from.
Marc:You just think it comes from...
Guest:That's a good question.
Guest:I wish I could tell you.
Marc:Do you know what I'm talking about?
Guest:Kind of?
Guest:Sort of, yes.
Guest:Even the song you mentioned, Shut Us Down, it doesn't have a drumbeat on it to orient you to where the one is.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:in a kind of a 6-8 measure and you're not sure what it is, you might not be able to latch onto the feel of the song.
Guest:So there is that element which comes up a lot because I love taking what you would describe as a traditional folk pick, a Travis pick, and then crossbreed it with something with a different time signature.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:But even like on some of the bigger...
Marc:On rumors, there's something different, like, you know, even on, like, is secondhand news yours?
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:That rhythm is not a normal rock rhythm.
Marc:No.
Marc:Is the one missing there, too, initially?
Guest:No.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:But that or go your own way.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Which...
Guest:is also a little disorienting until you get to the chorus yeah you know i there was when go your own way which was the first single from rumors when it first came out yeah um before the album was even out they they released that as a single and um i was in my car and i heard it come on i was going oh great you know so
Guest:And this is FM radio, KLOS, or whatever it was.
Guest:And the very well-known DJ, B. Mitchell Reed, comes on after the song, and he goes, well, that's the new Fleetwood Mac one.
Guest:And then he takes a pause, and he says, I don't know about that one.
Guest:And so me being the ballsy guy that I was back then, and to some degree still am,
Guest:I got to where I was going and I got on a phone and I called him up.
Guest:I said, hey, B, this is Lindsey Buckingham.
Guest:He's like, oh, hi.
Guest:I said, so, you know, you just played my song and you said you weren't sure about it.
Guest:What was it you weren't sure about?
Guest:He goes, well, I couldn't find the beat.
Guest:And it's that same thing.
Guest:You know, Mick's playing, I wanted Mick to play what Charlie Watts played on Street Fighting Man and he paraphrased it in a way which made it even sort of more, and again,
Guest:Like I say, you get to the chorus and it all becomes clear and then you're fine.
Guest:But it kind of throws you where everything is.
Marc:I just realized this goes back to the first album you did with him.
Marc:Like Monday Morning, that groove, it's the same thing in a way.
Guest:Well, you know, Mick and I, one of the things that I love about Mick is I'll come in and I'll say, Mick, I want this kind of a feel.
Guest:And I'll tell him something specifically.
Guest:And he will usually not do what I ask, but he'll do something which is...
Guest:His own.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so, you know, anytime you hear something like Monday Morning or Secondhand News or Go Your Own Way that has a beat that seems to stand apart a little bit, it's a combination of my original intention and his interpretation.
Marc:It's interesting because by Tusk, it's almost like he's just playing bongos the whole time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was crazy.
Guest:Well, that was actually a drum loop.
Guest:I mean, a true drum loop back in the day before digital.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And we had like a piece of tape that was edited into itself, and we were running it through the machine and holding a spool across the room and just letting like 16 bars of— Why, because Mick was passed out or what?
Guest:Well, no, but maybe—well, there's probably two reasons.
Guest:One is that we probably found just this little bit, which was just the zen of the idea—
Guest:And the other part was that we, you know, coming off of rumors, we were a little obsessive.
Marc:Okay, right.
Marc:Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I mean, you're talking about the artwork of Tusk.
Guest:I mean, that's the same thing.
Guest:In a post-rumors environment.
Guest:So you guys were up.
Guest:It's like more is better, right?
Marc:You were awake.
Guest:Yes.
Okay.
Guest:In more ways than one.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:A lot of mine's going real fast.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I don't think I really remember to realize just how big of a record that first record you did with them was.
Marc:I mean, that's a big record.
Guest:Well, and again, that kind of goes along with what I was saying about...
Guest:the time from college through meeting Mick, you know, which it all seemed to fall into place in retrospect, even though it wasn't so clear that that was what was happening in the moment.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So Mick heard, you know, the song from the Buckingham Knicks album.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Stevie and I were working on some new songs for a second Buckingham Knicks album at Sound City Studios.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And they had a smaller studio, Studio B, in the back, and the main one where we had cut Buckingham Mix was Studio A. So I took a break.
Guest:It was probably mid-evening sometime.
Guest:And I wandered into Studio A to see what Keith was doing.
Guest:And I get close to the door and I hear the song Frozen Love from Buckingham Knicks playing very loud.
Guest:And I'm thinking, what is going on in there?
Marc:It's my song.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And so I open the door just as my, you know, screaming guitar solo starts.
Guest:And I look across the, I see, wave at Keith.
Guest:And I see this very tall, skinny gentleman on the other end of the console completely immersed in my guitar solo and just kind of bopping up and down and with his eyes closed, completely taken with what I was doing.
Guest:So I just sit there and watch this.
Guest:It's sort of like, well, okay.
Guest:And the song finishes.
Guest:And Keith says, Lindsay, it's so weird you walked in.
Guest:I want you to meet Mick Fleetwood.
Guest:So we talked for a few minutes, and he complimented me on the guitar playing.
Guest:And I said, nice to meet you.
Guest:And I went back to Studio B. I said to Stevie, hey, I just met Mick Fleetwood.
Guest:That was weird.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:And then maybe a couple of weeks pass, and then I get a call from Mick, because I think in those two weeks, suddenly Bob Welch had decided that he wanted to leave Fleetwood Mac.
Guest:And Mick, in the same spirit of keeping the band going, you know, non sequitur or not, calls me up and says, would you like to join Fleetwood Mac?
Guest:And, you know...
Guest:I'm not sure if it was right away or if it was maybe the second call, but I eventually said to him, you know, I think I talked to Stevie about it, and we sort of weighed the pros and cons.
Guest:And then I talked to him again, and I said, yes, I'd love to join, but you're going to have to take my girlfriend, too.
Marc:Which he did.
Guest:Which he did, to his credit.
Marc:But he took her in two ways, I guess, right?
Guest:Yes, very much.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And also to Christine's credit, you know, who was the sole female in the band and the fact that she was so open to it.
Marc:I'll tell you, after listening to those records and also like Christine, Ive McVie's solo record, the first one.
Guest:Right.
Marc:She's phenomenal.
Guest:Oh, she's a true musician.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, like, and I listened to some of the record you did with her.
Guest:Right.
Marc:That wasn't that long ago.
Guest:No, a couple of years ago.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, it's odd that, you know, coming out of listening to these things, I'm more attracted or more moved by your voice and her voice than ultimately I'm, yeah, I mean, Stevie's great.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But there's a nuance to you guys that is different.
Guest:Well, you know, that was a really fun album to do with Christine because we, you know, it just put us in a whole other context.
Guest:The solo one from a couple years ago.
Guest:Yeah, and she only had maybe three songs that were sort of written from the ground up, and everything else, she needed more material.
Guest:So I kept giving her demos of stuff of mine where I'd done the chords and maybe didn't have words, but it hummed an idea for a melody, and I said, see what you can do with this.
Guest:And she would invariably come back with something just really transcendent, where she would...
Guest:Her sensibilities became so apparent and something that I appreciated even more when I saw what she did to a rough idea of mine and how she articulated it totally in her own way.
Marc:So you had a whole new appreciation of her even after working in the band with her for so many years.
Guest:Yes, very much so.
Guest:And I think she had an appreciation for...
Guest:You know, because the band is rife with politics, still is, but it was then for sure.
Marc:So when you first get in there and so you and Stevie decide to take the offer.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And you immediately start writing and working with the whole band or you've got songs you've already...
Guest:Well, that was the beauty of it was once again, you know, at every turn, it seemed that we were prepared because we had, I had, you know, brand new material that we had worked on and that I had demoed out on my four track.
Yeah.
Guest:of mine and of stevie's so you know every song on that first album had had been worked out and demoed by me before we had joined the band self-titled like monday morning monday morning all of them um world turning um world turning that like that one's that's that's that's like a blues song yeah oh yeah yeah i love that thing
Guest:Why do you say it like that?
Guest:Well, I know.
Guest:I mean, it's that drop D thing.
Guest:See, that walks the line for me between blues and folk because it's got the same drop D you've got in the chain.
Guest:It's sort of, eh.
Guest:It could be Steve Stills.
Guest:It could be any number of things.
Guest:But it was a hit.
Guest:It was.
Guest:And so, yeah, I mean...
Marc:So that's how it started.
Guest:We were lucky to have all that stuff ready to go.
Marc:And now how does that work at the beginning?
Marc:Because as I told you, I was listening to this stuff.
Marc:It was clear that you were sort of like the de facto leader of the band.
Guest:Well, you know, what's funny was we started rehearsing over on Beverly Boulevard in the basement of some building.
Guest:And what became clear to me right away, well, even before that, I knew there were things I was going to have to let go of that were important to me.
Guest:Maybe a lot of my guitar style that you would find on a song like Frozen Love, the picking and the lead playing.
Marc:Why was that going to have to go?
Guest:Well, because there was an existing sound that was there.
Guest:There wasn't enough space for a lot of that.
Guest:Was there?
Guest:Well, there really was, because you had John, who was quite a melodic and liked to use a lot of notes.
Guest:John's two main influences are Paul McCartney and... Who's the other one?
Guest:Who's the great Charlie...
Guest:Mingus?
Guest:Mingus, yes.
Guest:So he's got jazz and he's got McCartney all put together.
Guest:And Christine had a really fat keyboard sound and tended to play in a fairly Baroque kind of manner.
Guest:And so I realized, okay, well...
Guest:i may have to kind of pare back on what i'm able to do as a guitarist but what became so clear to me was that these people needed a musical leader right and right away you know when on over my head which is i think the first song we started working on the song of christine's you know it was like she started playing it to show it to everybody we got to the bridge
Guest:And I was immediately, it was apparent to me, no, no, no, no.
Guest:We're not going to do that for a bridge.
Guest:So we changed the bridge to other chords, other melody.
Guest:And so from the first day, that was clear that that was going to be probably my most significant role.
Guest:And it's arguably the role that has remained the most significant for my whole period in Fleetwood Mac.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And I think significant for them, too, as a band.
Marc:well one would hope yes obviously i mean like you know because i i watched that documentary on peter green and you know it was clear that you know they whatever the deal was with green's ego and naming the band fleetwood mac but but you know he was and i think john and mick had a great time playing with that guy probably because it was they were young and that was the blues time and he was brilliant amazing yeah yeah but you know he was driving that band yes and
Marc:I think your ability to step into that role with some confidence is what makes all the difference.
Marc:I mean, it could have floundered.
Guest:And also being willing to concentrate on what was needed for the big picture and not necessarily looking too much at what was needed for myself, you know?
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you were just doing what you do and it just happened to be a great fit.
Marc:And then the sound become defined by your songwriting and the guitar.
Guest:that's right yeah and so you know it was uh again it was crazy that we we get through and we we complete that album and as you point out that it was so successful because first one yes because again it just seems like okay that was pretty easy to do so it's surprise sell four million albums you think that's easy to do i mean today it's not did it surprise everyone
Guest:I think it may have.
Marc:That was the biggest record they ever had, wasn't it?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:I'm not sure if it surprised the record company, but I have to assume it did.
Guest:But again, you give Mo Austin a lot of credit for keeping the band on the label until we showed up.
Guest:when they weren't making a ton of money for the band and there certainly wasn't anything you could hang your hat on in terms of style album to album and yet intuitively Mo would was must have been saying you know I think there's something here I'm not sure I'm just gonna let it simmer for a while you know and that kind of autonomy yeah even if you have people with that kind of intuition today the the autonomy to be able to act in that
Marc:What was his position at that time?
Guest:He was president.
Marc:Of Warner?
Guest:Warner.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So, you know, I gave him a lot of credit, too.
Guest:But yeah, were they surprised?
Guest:Who knows?
Guest:We certainly...
Guest:I mean, it's sort of like talking about rumors.
Guest:You can say, well, we think this is going to be successful, but in the context of a brand new group where you had maybe John McPhee saying, well, listening to this sort of, quote, California album we've made with these two new kids that just joined the band, and what he said to Mick was, it's a long way from the blues.
Guest:And he wasn't wrong.
Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, but so maybe there was a touch of ambivalence about what it was, but I don't think that lasted very long.
Marc:So when did like when did it start?
Marc:So after you do the first record with them, so when does it start getting contentious?
Marc:When does you when does Stevie, when do you and Stevie break up and Mick starts dating her and the cocaine?
Marc:When does it all start happening?
Guest:Well, let's see.
Guest:As I said, Stevie and I had been having some problems even before we joined Fleetwood Mac.
Guest:There had been disappointing things that had happened, and then we'd come back together.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:but what had happened was that I think she sort of mentally had one foot out the door anyway because of that, by the time we joined Fleetwood Mac, and we joined Fleetwood Mac, which is ironically Stevie and me as a couple and John and Christine McVie as a couple, and they are in the process of getting a divorce.
Marc:At the beginning of when your time.
Guest:Very soon, yes.
Guest:I mean, they were in deep trouble already.
Guest:So once this was something that Christine and Stevie had in common, that maybe they were both looking for some independence.
Guest:And so it didn't take too long after leaving the band.
Guest:I mean, after joining the band to...
Guest:to have things come to a head with Stevie and me.
Guest:And, you know, I mean, it did sort of happen incrementally because I think the way the album unfolded and the success and the visibility of Stevie as a kind of a front woman happened incrementally too.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And the more she was able to sort of see herself in that role and get feedback from either people in the business or just the audiences in general, the more it fed that sense of independence as well.
Guest:So by the time we got...
Guest:You know, it wasn't like we just said one day we're not.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But it was troubled for maybe six months or more.
Marc:After the first record or during?
Marc:During.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We had broken up forever by the time we started talking about making rumors.
Mm-hmm.
Marc:And she was dating Mick, right?
Marc:That was later, though.
Marc:That was probably during Tusk.
Marc:Oh, so like that.
Marc:Because I just can't imagine because I'm a volatile, insecure, ego, testicle person.
Marc:Aren't we all?
Marc:Yeah, I guess.
Marc:But I mean, it would have seemed that it would have made everything crazy in the band.
Guest:Well, it was a pretty unusual social dynamic we had.
Guest:You're talking about two couples breaking up right when the world is being laid at their feet, so to speak, and having to...
Guest:And navigate that emotionally and logistically and everything else.
Guest:I mean, you know, you had to compartmentalize your feelings.
Guest:You had to kind of always, always be pulling back and looking at the bigger picture.
Marc:Do you think it fed the music?
Guest:Oh, no question.
Guest:I mean, there's especially rumors.
Guest:I mean, you know, when I said that earlier, I was saying that, you know, to some degree, there was a point where the success of rumors became about the success.
Guest:But the success of rumors was always about something other than the music.
Guest:It was about this musical soap opera that people could sort of be voyeurs, you know,
Guest:Through the songs or through the tabloids?
Marc:I mean, what was happening?
Guest:Both.
Guest:I mean, the tabloids were far less invasive than they are now back in 77.
Marc:But the stories were out there.
Guest:The stories were out there, I think, just because... In the music press.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And I think the subject matter of the songs made it clear that we were writing about what we were living in.
Marc:Like never going back again?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Boy, was that an illusion.
Marc:Ew.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Go your own way?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And Stevie, too, I guess you make loving fun.
Marc:I guess it was all kind of...
Guest:It really was like, you know, couples because really, you know, three of the people who were the four people who were the couple, the two couples, were the three writers.
Guest:And we were cross dialoguing to each other all the time through music.
Guest:And that became like a huge record.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and I think that people really bought into the truthfulness and, again, maybe the sordidness of it, if you want to look at it that way.
Guest:Certainly the tabloid aspect of it.
Marc:Was it sordid?
Marc:I mean, like, but when did the drug start getting out of control during that record?
Guest:Well, I think there was a lot of use during rumors, for sure.
Guest:I don't.
Guest:Even at its worst, except maybe for Tango in the Night, I don't remember it ever affecting our ability to take the creative high road or to articulate the creative high road.
Guest:Oh, that's good.
Guest:and I put that down to just the resilience of youth, I guess.
Guest:Yeah, sure, yeah.
Guest:And if I was the guy who was in there basically producing the records and being the musical leader, I'm not saying I didn't partake, but comparative to other members of the band and how much they played,
Guest:would use certain things or how much they would drink.
Guest:I was very much the least of those.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:So, yeah, I think so much of what we were able to do was just so strongly ingrained in us.
Guest:And it was also this synergy, this chemistry in which the synergy that we created was greater than the sum of the parts.
Marc:And Tusk was...
Marc:What do you think, you know, when you look at Tusk as a record, what does it represent to you?
Marc:I mean, would you reproduce it?
Guest:Or are you happy with it?
Guest:I would, yes.
Guest:Tusk is actually in many ways the record I'm the most proud of because it thwarted everyone's expectations.
Guest:I think in a post-rumors environment, we were in this situation where we possibly were poised to go down one road or another.
Guest:A particular road would have been to do...
Guest:to make choices that were sort of representative of what the external world expected us to be.
Guest:And that's where you start to see a lot of artists lose touch with who they are.
Marc:You mean repeat it?
Guest:Repeat.
Guest:Rumors, too.
Guest:And at some point, you're sort of painting yourself into a corner as an artist because you start to lose your sense of being able to take risks or being able to be engaged in things that are outside your comfort zone just because you're doing what people want you to do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the formula from a corporate point of view is if something works, run it into the ground and then move on.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Leave them all depleted husks.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Of a nostalgia band.
Guest:And so when it came time to make Tusk, a lot of new music, new wave stuff had started to come in from England especially and the States.
Guest:But I was struggling with...
Guest:what did all this mean on that level?
Guest:And so... What, the new wave?
Guest:Just the success.
Guest:Oh, the success.
Guest:The success of, you know, obviously the success enables you to make any kind of choice you want, which is the irony of it, but it also potentially starts to paint you into a corner.
Guest:And I was very...
Guest:intent on taking a different road.
Guest:Because, you know, if you are an artist or if you want to aspire to be an artist and to continue to do that in the long term, you've got to keep making choices that have risk and that are about what is interesting and vital to you in that moment.
Guest:And so, you know, I said to... For yourself.
Marc:You're not thinking in the business model.
Marc:In order to maintain your evolution... No, it's not a business decision at all.
Guest:And again, I wouldn't have had the freedom to make that decision or perhaps even the perspective to see that it was a decision that could be made without that business success, that commercial success.
Guest:But...
Guest:You know, in a way, Tusk, you know, obviously in the same way my solo albums are more esoteric and sort of more off to the left, generally speaking.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And because of that, you know, maybe I lose nine out of 10 people who might listen to a Fleetwood Mac album.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a choice you make.
Guest:It's like saying, I want to be Jim Jarmusch or somebody.
Guest:I'm not going to do this because I want to be Steven Spielberg and have the biggest, the most money-making movie ever made.
Guest:I want to do this for my art and for what I believe in.
Marc:And are you satisfied in that?
Guest:Yes, I am.
Guest:And so Tusk was really the line in the sand that got drawn, which allowed me and has allowed me to continue to make that choice over and over again and to somehow have it coexist with Fleetwood Mac.
Guest:It got to the point where Fleetwood Mac was the big machine and Solo Work was the small machine.
Marc:And they were conflicting at points.
Guest:Sometimes, but generally not.
Marc:Because Matt kept touring?
Marc:I mean, when were you doing both simultaneously?
Guest:Well, I mean, I don't know.
Guest:There was never enough time for me to sort of string together a series of albums back to back.
Guest:I didn't tour until 2006 as a solo on my own.
Guest:So, you know, it was just one of those things that it allowed.
Guest:And as Fleetwood Mac sort of went down that road.
Guest:And of course, as I said, I took leave of Fleetwood Mac in 1987 because I didn't want to do that tour.
Guest:I made Out of the Cradle, which is one of my better albums.
Guest:And then eventually got pulled back into Fleetwood Mac and didn't make another solo album until 2006.
Guest:So there has been a problem in terms of, maybe not a problem, but a challenge in terms of stringing those things together.
Marc:Well, the time commitment revolved around touring, right?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:So, you know, if you're going to be in Fleetwood Mac, you've got to do everything that Fleetwood Mac needs to be done.
Guest:It's a big operation.
Guest:It is.
Guest:And if that means that you've got to sort of minimize the logistics of your solo work, then that's OK, because in a way it's going to be smaller scale anyway, just because of what it is.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And that's that's a good thing for me, you know.
Marc:Well, maybe it did force you to at least, you know, be leaner in your approach.
Guest:Well, I mean, it kept me learning.
Guest:I know that, you know.
Guest:And at some point people are up there doing their hits and they forget how to even be creative, you know.
Marc:Yeah, I definitely hear that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm not afforded that luxury as a sort of like a marginal comic.
Marc:You know, you really got to show up with the new hour every year.
Guest:Comedy, as they say, it's hard.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Jeez.
Marc:But I want to make sure that we do pay some attention to all the solo records, especially once you got through.
Marc:I know that first one was back in the 90s, but it seemed like the shift from the first couple of solo records, which were...
Marc:I mean, the production is very of its time, and there was, I think, an attempt to make something danceable.
Marc:Am I wrong?
Guest:Well, my first solo album was, I think, I'm going to say 1981.
Guest:It was Law and Order.
Guest:That was not really so danceable, but the reason that I even started making solo albums was because the band had gotten very drawn into the whole Tusk idea.
Guest:They were a little bit wary of doing it in the beginning, but they got completely drawn into it by the time it got done.
Guest:Oh, they loved it.
Guest:They loved it, but when it did not sell close to 16 million copies, I think it probably sold four or five, and it was a double album, so still...
Guest:And Mick came to me one day and he said, well, we're not going to do that again.
Guest:Meaning you can't go to your house and work on tracks by yourself and bring them in and have us play over them, which is what I did.
Marc:So he's sort of blaming you.
Guest:He's not blaming me.
Guest:He's just saying, you know.
Marc:We got to get back to what works.
Guest:That was your art album.
Guest:We want to do something a little broader now.
Guest:And I said, okay.
Guest:But I realized at that point that I wasn't going to be able to continue to sort of aspire to be the artist.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Unless I started making solo albums.
Right.
Guest:That first one wasn't really so dancey.
Guest:The second one was called Go Insane, which was a couple of years later.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that was a little bit more.
Guest:The Linn drum machine had just come in.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I had- There's a synthesizer presence too.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had this 8-bit Fairlight, which was very new.
Guest:And also working with different people, whereas-
Guest:On that first album, I'd worked with Richard Daschett, who is one of the co-producers that we had.
Guest:From Fleetwood Mac, yeah.
Guest:From Fleetwood Mac.
Guest:But on this, I worked with a young guy named Gordon Fordyce as an engineer, and Roy Thomas Baker, of all people, wanted to, he called himself executive producer.
Guest:On the newest one?
Guest:On Go Insane, the second one.
Guest:This was in 1983, I'm thinking.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And he, you know, that could mean anything.
Guest:Executive producer could mean you never see him, but he was there every day.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think his sensibilities worked their way into that album.
Guest:And Gordon, the engineer, they were both English, so they were drawing from the sensibilities of the stuff that was coming over from England.
Guest:Kind of New Wavey.
Guest:Yeah, so you did get a kind of a more dancey kind of sensibility on that record.
Guest:No doubt about it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So I'm trying to get the timeline.
Marc:The last time that we almost talked, you had just been cut loose from Fleetwood Mac in a fairly dramatic way.
Marc:What was that about?
Marc:How does that happen?
Guest:Well, ironically, it sort of began...
Guest:I mean, the tone for it, not anything—there was no real substantive reason for it happening, but the tone actually began—
Guest:with the solo album that is about to be released, the brand new one, which has been waiting to come out for three years now at least, more, more actually.
Guest:And when Christine and I were done touring as a duet, which we did after we made that album a few years ago,
Guest:What I asked of the band, because they were planning a Fleetwood Mac tour pretty much right after that.
Marc:After in 2017?
Guest:Yes, whenever that was.
Guest:Yeah, maybe 18.
Guest:18, yeah.
Guest:What I said was, we did this great project with Christine.
Guest:I have this other album that I'm really proud of.
Guest:It's a pop album.
Guest:And I would love if you would give me an extra three months just to put it out and do some American dates before Fleetwood Mac goes out.
Guest:And there was...
Guest:Certainly one person who did not want to bestow that on me.
Guest:And so it kind of got.
Guest:Why didn't she?
Guest:Well.
Marc:Was it petty?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Stevie.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And, I mean, to be fair, everyone was anxious to get on the road.
Guest:But, you know, we've all made time for each other's things.
Guest:And, you know, I'd been in a band for 43 years, for God's sake.
Guest:Jesus.
Guest:So anyway, that sort of led to other things that kind of built up around that.
Guest:And then it just got to the point where someone just didn't want to work with me anymore.
Guest:And other people were
Guest:perhaps not feeling empowered enough to stand up for me when possibly they should have or could have.
Guest:And it wasn't based on, I mean, I'm not saying that I can't be hard to get along with sometimes, but if you put it in a larger context of all the things that Fleetwood Mac, this Fleetwood Mac has been through, and what we've risen above.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:in order to keep our eye on the larger picture and in order to fulfill our destiny over and over again.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was bigger than this.
Guest:Oh, yes.
Guest:Any issues were not worthy of what happened.
Guest:And what was most...
Guest:disappointing about it to me was was not oh gee i'm not going to get to do this tour so much what it was was again we spent 43 years building this legacy which was about rising above things it stood for more than the music yeah and and by allowing this to happen and
Guest:through some levels of weakness, my own weakness included, I think we did some harm to that legacy, and that's a shame.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And outside of the solo album right now, I mean, where does that relationship stand with you?
Marc:Where are you at now with that, with the band?
Guest:Well, I mean, you know, I've spoken to Mick, you know.
Guest:I've certainly, I probably text him more than I actually speak to him.
Guest:I've spoken to him a couple of times.
Guest:I knew I had to call him when Peter Green passed away.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:How was that conversation?
Guest:It was great.
Guest:I mean, he and I are soulmates and always will be.
Guest:You and Mick.
Guest:Mick and I. And we love each other and we reinforced each other's sensibilities in the band.
Guest:And so, you know, I'm sure it's my sense that, you know, pretty much...
Guest:Everyone would love to see me come back if that was doable, but I don't know if it's doable or not.
Marc:So now you have this, like for instance, you went through a divorce.
Guest:Well, actually, we have not divorced.
Guest:Okay, okay.
Guest:We filed.
Guest:and it's sort of a work in progress.
Marc:I was just using it as an example.
Guest:No, I mean, that information was certainly out there, but we have not signed any divorce papers, and I would say,
Guest:You know, there's probably some chance that we will work this out.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Well, I guess my question was really leading to, okay, so you were going through things.
Marc:You had heart surgery.
Marc:Now, does Stevie call you?
Guest:No.
Guest:Wow.
Wow.
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, she did, when I had my bypass, she did text me or email me.
Guest:Oh, she did?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Wish me well, and that was nice.
Marc:Well, that's good.
Marc:That would have been sad to me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:It's fine.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I mean, I want Stevie to be happy, so, you know.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So it seems that you, on your own, starting with that record that moved me so much, the Under the Skin record, have really picked up where you wanted to go after Tusk in a real way.
Marc:Like, continue to take chances.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Continue to really... Because the way you sing now, I've never heard anybody...
Marc:who is such a distinct and powerful singer as you are, you know, evolve your voice appropriately to what you seem to see as your limitations as you get older.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you do it with such uniqueness, and you do not hide the voice.
Marc:I find it very impressive.
Guest:Oh, thank you.
Marc:Do you feel like you are doing the work now that you feel invigorated by the chances you're taking?
No.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:I'm in the middle of rehearsals right now, and it's sort of like we haven't started doing the whole set yet, so I don't know how I'm even going to feel physically when we do that.
Marc:You look like you're in good shape.
Guest:Well, I feel good.
Guest:I get a little more tired than I used to, but I'm assuming you sort of build up to it.
Guest:It's just been a while since we've done it.
Marc:Who's your band?
Guest:Well, a lot of people that have been backup for Fleetwood Mac and people I've known for years and years.
Guest:There's a guitar player named Neil Haywood who is brilliant, a keyboardist and guitarist named Brett Tuggle, a keyboardist and sort of computer programmer named Mike Kianca, and a drummer named Jimmy Paxson.
Marc:Oh, great.
Guest:And that's it.
Marc:So like a tight outfit.
Guest:It's a tight outfit, you know, and we're having a ball so far.
Marc:But when you make these records, like this last one, when we were just talking, you called it a pop record.
Guest:Well, more so than some, yes.
Marc:And your expectations of it, given that we've established that you are an evolving artist and it doesn't become about money or necessarily about hits, what is it that you expect out of the work now?
Guest:Not a whole lot, you know.
Guest:I mean, you figure X number of people with the right ears are going to hear it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you have fans for your solo work, and I imagine a lot of the Fleetwood Mac people enjoy it.
Guest:Yes, and every once in a while you'll hear about somebody who you think, oh, that's nice.
Guest:Who is telling me?
Guest:Because I did my last solo album was Seize We So in 2011.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And someone was talking about Stephen King.
Guest:It was like his favorite album.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:There is not a high expectation to...
Guest:to sell anything you know especially these days i mean yeah you know i mean if you used to if my albums used to sell 350 000 copies you know what what is the equivalent of that in today's market 35 yeah you know some i mean so you you can't really put that in there i mean so you do but the touring means something yeah
Guest:The whole thing means something because the people who have an interest in hearing it are going to find it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's going to, you know, you're going to get, you're going to make some waves out there and being able to articulate it by touring because we're doing like five new songs.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:How many dates do you think you're going to do?
Guest:Well, it's a little hard to say.
Guest:You know, we had a bunch of stuff kind of nailed down.
Guest:We had one leg nailed down, which is what we're starting with still in America.
Guest:But we also had a bunch of dates in the UK and Europe and also in Australia.
Guest:And all of that's gone away because of COVID for now.
Guest:So we don't know.
Marc:What do you like in the United States?
Marc:What do you do, like 30 dates?
Guest:Eventually, probably a few more than that, because we'll break it up into two legs.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well, so you don't know when you're going to start again?
Guest:It's in the beginning of September.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I enjoyed the record.
Guest:Good.
Guest:And I enjoyed talking to you.
Guest:Well, I enjoyed talking to you.
Guest:I always do.
Marc:Are you going to be doing Largo?
Marc:Are you doing Largo tomorrow, by any chance?
Yeah.
Marc:What is... It's like one of those judge shows.
Guest:Oh, no, I didn't hear about that one, no.
Guest:Oh, sorry.
Guest:He just got back from England.
Marc:Oh, England?
Guest:Well, he probably did that too, but he was shooting a movie with Fred Armisen, I think.
Marc:Yeah, I guess they're doing... I think they're doing benefits for the actual place.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Marc:I think this is the second one.
Marc:I just know I got called to... Flanny asked me to do it, so I'm going to go do something.
Guest:Well, it's funny, because Fred Armisen...
Guest:emailed me like two weeks ago and wanted me to do... Oh, his show over there.
Guest:Yeah, and I couldn't do it.
Guest:I had something else I had to do that night.
Marc:But you're ready to go if you're needed?
Guest:Well, yeah, hell.
Guest:Of course.
Marc:All right, man.
Marc:Great talking to you.
Guest:Great talking to you, Mark.
Guest:Thanks, buddy.
Marc:That was a great talk, wasn't it?
Marc:Lindsey Buckingham.
Marc:The new album comes out September 17th.
Marc:He'll be on tour to support that album.
Marc:Dates forthcoming.
Marc:Is that how you say that?
Marc:Rest in peace, Dusty Hill.
Marc:Godspeed, Bob Odenkirk.
Marc:Get well soon.
Marc:Now I'll play some guitar.
Marc:This was a one-take riff.
So,
so so
so so
guitar solo
Guest:Boomer lives.
Guest:Monkey.
Guest:Fonda.
Guest:Cat angels everywhere.