Episode 1242 - John Swab

Episode 1242 • Released July 8, 2021 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Guest:Lock the gates!

00:00:09Marc:All right, let's do this.

00:00:11Marc:How are you?

00:00:11Marc:What the fuckers?

00:00:12Marc:What the fuck buddies?

00:00:13Marc:What the fuck nicks?

00:00:14Marc:What's happening?

00:00:15Marc:How's it going?

00:00:16Marc:How, how, how, how are you?

00:00:19Marc:Yeah.

00:00:20Marc:How's it going with you?

00:00:21Marc:Did you get that thing fixed?

00:00:23Marc:It'll grow out.

00:00:24Marc:It'll grow out.

00:00:25Marc:You know, I mean, it's been a long time since you've had a nice haircut.

00:00:29Marc:You know, you forget, you forget, you forget that sometimes it takes time.

00:00:34Marc:It's okay if people think you're talking too loud.

00:00:37Marc:It's just a natural transition period.

00:00:39Marc:We're all excited to not be crying.

00:00:42Marc:We're excited to not have to be in the house all the time with the people we love, barely.

00:00:47Marc:It's still a transition time.

00:00:50Marc:Nothing is normal.

00:00:51Marc:There is no collective culture.

00:00:54Marc:Everything is fragmented.

00:00:55Marc:Nobody knows what the other person knows because we're drawing from different perceptions of reality, different lenses, different portals.

00:01:03Marc:They're mining our minds, and we are locking in to the one that suits that best.

00:01:09Marc:Has nothing to do with reality.

00:01:11Marc:So nobody's on the same page, but I hope you're well.

00:01:14Marc:Are you?

00:01:15Marc:How's the finger?

00:01:16Marc:How's the toe?

00:01:17Marc:How's the leg?

00:01:18Marc:How's the ankle?

00:01:18Marc:How's the neck?

00:01:20Marc:How's the ears?

00:01:21Marc:The ears okay?

00:01:22Marc:I'm telling you, your hair looks fine, all right?

00:01:25Marc:I'm sorry you had to put the cat down.

00:01:27Marc:I'm sorry you had to put the dog down.

00:01:29Marc:I'm sorry the fish died.

00:01:30Marc:The kid's got to learn sometime, right?

00:01:33Marc:I mean, that's what fish are for.

00:01:35Marc:Not my idea.

00:01:38Marc:How's it going, folks?

00:01:39Marc:Look, a couple of things on the mind.

00:01:43Marc:First of all, John Swab is here.

00:01:45Marc:John Swab is a director who directed the film Body Brokers, which I liked a lot.

00:01:52Marc:That's the reason I talked to Melissa Leo a while back.

00:01:55Marc:I also wanted to talk about it with Michael K. Williams.

00:01:58Marc:I mean...

00:01:59Marc:It's about drugs.

00:02:00Marc:It's about recovery.

00:02:01Marc:It's about the dark side of the recovery racket, the business, the rehab, the business, moving money through the sickness of others.

00:02:12Marc:Something that happens a lot.

00:02:14Marc:I would argue that almost all of American capitalism is built on that one way or the other.

00:02:20Marc:But this was specifically about the rackets that grew out of the money being given through Obamacare to rehab centers and rehab clinics and drug treatment-related medical procedures.

00:02:38Marc:I thought it was a great subject, a great movie, very compelling, dark.

00:02:43Marc:But I talked to John.

00:02:44Marc:I wanted to talk to Suave about it.

00:02:46Marc:I watched his other movies.

00:02:48Marc:Well, one of them.

00:02:49Marc:I couldn't find the other one.

00:02:51Marc:But I'll get back to that in a minute.

00:02:52Marc:I would like to tell people that do not know that Sword of Trust, this is the last film from...

00:03:02Marc:Lynn Shelton, my late girlfriend, stars me and Michaela Watkins and John Bass and Jillian Bell, Toby Huss, Dan Backdahl.

00:03:17Marc:It's a great film and it's now on Netflix.

00:03:19Marc:Sword of Trust can be watched on Netflix now.

00:03:22Marc:So if you'd like to enjoy that movie, if you've heard about it, you're curious about it, you can watch it.

00:03:27Marc:Also.

00:03:29Marc:The tour, my tour, it's not really a tour.

00:03:32Marc:I'll be doing some club dates in the near future, August 5th, 6th, 7th.

00:03:38Marc:I will be at the Comedy Works in Denver.

00:03:41Marc:I will be at Stand Up Live in Phoenix one night only, August 12th.

00:03:46Marc:I will be at Wise Guys in Salt Lake City, August 19th, 20th, and 21st.

00:03:52Marc:I will be at Helium in St.

00:03:54Marc:Louis, September 16th, 17th, and 18th.

00:03:59Marc:That's what I've got on the docket currently.

00:04:01Marc:I know I'm going to be up in Bloomington at some point.

00:04:04Marc:I don't know.

00:04:04Marc:Are those dates not up for sale?

00:04:07Marc:I don't know what's happening.

00:04:08Marc:Are they sold out?

00:04:09Marc:I'll look.

00:04:10Marc:I'll check.

00:04:11Marc:But if you'd like to see me, the Dynasty shows for the next three Thursdays are sold out.

00:04:17Marc:And I don't know if I talked to you guys about it, about entering.

00:04:20Marc:I definitely didn't talk to you about it.

00:04:26Marc:I OK, so, you know, the process I'm losing my mind, you know, I'm trying to put together an hour.

00:04:32Marc:I don't know how much I've got.

00:04:33Marc:I know I've probably got about 20, 30 minutes, probably in a lot of things that I'm curious about and talking about and want to talk about.

00:04:39Marc:But this is the next this was the giant step forward.

00:04:42Marc:The big leap forward was to move from.

00:04:44Marc:The workout room, the comedy store doing 15 to 20 every night, punching it out, getting into the right groove, the right tone, developing that relationship with the audience.

00:04:54Marc:And last Thursday was the first night I was going to do the hour long set, riff through it at Dynasty Typewriter.

00:05:00Marc:Haven't been haven't done that much time in a long time.

00:05:04Marc:Granted, I've been doing some Instagram lives, whatever.

00:05:06Marc:I get kind of hyper and weird and insecure about certain things and concerned.

00:05:12Marc:And I was just ready to really kind of be with my audience so I could sort of open my heart and move through some of the ideas I'm thinking about and some of the funny stuff I'm thinking about.

00:05:24Marc:So...

00:05:25Marc:I'm ready to go.

00:05:26Marc:I've made some notes.

00:05:27Marc:I've got the right mindset.

00:05:29Marc:And I'm like, this will be great.

00:05:30Marc:This will be my people.

00:05:31Marc:It'll be a small room, couple hundred friendlies.

00:05:36Marc:And we'll fucking do it.

00:05:37Marc:So I don't want anyone to really go with me.

00:05:40Marc:Except for Jerry Stahl.

00:05:42Marc:He's a he's a guy that I trust my insecurities and my my darkness with.

00:05:47Marc:So I figure he'd get off on it and I trust his opinion about what goes down.

00:05:51Marc:So Jerry's going to go with me.

00:05:53Marc:He comes over.

00:05:53Marc:We head out from my house down to Dynasty.

00:05:56Marc:And I noticed, you know, we're going down fucking Glendale Boulevard.

00:06:01Marc:Where the fuck do you get off?

00:06:02Marc:Yeah, all the way downtown.

00:06:03Marc:And we're about, you know, five, 10 minutes out and my tire is going flat.

00:06:07Marc:I can see it on my dashboard with the little thing.

00:06:10Marc:Air is going out of the tire quickly.

00:06:13Marc:And so we get we pull up to Dynasty.

00:06:16Marc:They have a driveway in the back with a gate on it.

00:06:18Marc:And at that point, there's no air in one of my tires.

00:06:22Marc:So I'm fucked.

00:06:22Marc:I've got a flat.

00:06:23Marc:So that's, you know, I'm heading into the hour and.

00:06:26Marc:Trying to get in the right mind and I get a flat.

00:06:28Marc:So we pull up to the gate and right as another car had just pulled into a space that wasn't a space right next to where I got to pull in.

00:06:35Marc:Big car, luxury car.

00:06:37Marc:I want to say a Cadillac.

00:06:38Marc:I'm not sure.

00:06:39Marc:Maybe it was a it was a it was a big car.

00:06:42Marc:And I'm like, what the fuck's this guy doing?

00:06:44Marc:What is he doing?

00:06:45Marc:And, you know, he was he wasn't even a space.

00:06:47Marc:I had to kind of pull around him to get in the driveway and then walk out to the front of Dynasty to get someone to come open the gate.

00:06:53Marc:And I got a flat tire on the back tire.

00:06:55Marc:And it's seven thirty show times at eight.

00:06:58Marc:And I'm like, what's up with this dude in this car?

00:07:00Marc:It's just a big dude just sitting in the car.

00:07:01Marc:I'm like, is there going to be fucking trouble?

00:07:04Marc:And, you know, I get out of the car to to sort of deal with the gate.

00:07:10Marc:And then this guy gets out of his car is a big dude, like classic, you know, East Coast looking big dude, older dude, like Italian, like old school looking big dude, like an Italian looking guy.

00:07:23Marc:And I'm looking at him thinking, like, what what are we doing?

00:07:25Marc:You know, he's smoking a cigarette.

00:07:27Marc:And I'm like, what what what is happening here?

00:07:29Guest:And he goes, oh, my you're him.

00:07:31Guest:Mark Maron.

00:07:32Guest:It's Mark Maron.

00:07:33Guest:You're Mark Maron.

00:07:34Guest:My wife loves you.

00:07:36Guest:She's online right now.

00:07:37Guest:Hold on a minute.

00:07:39Guest:He's calling his wife.

00:07:40Guest:Hey, baby, Mark Maron's right here in front of me.

00:07:43Guest:Mark Maron, come over and meet him.

00:07:45Guest:You want to meet my wife, right?

00:07:47Guest:You know, I thought you were an asshole, but she loves you.

00:07:50Guest:You're not.

00:07:50Guest:You're all right.

00:07:51Guest:mark maron is here i'm like oh my god how is this happening how is this guy gonna be in the room of love how is this the guy why is this the first thing i got a flat tire and i got this guy here and he's calling his wife he's like oh you want me to call triple a i got i got gold i got triple a gold i'm like take it easy man i'm gonna deal with the tire i'll call him it's no problem but here comes my wife mark maron you want a picture i'm like holy shit

00:08:15Marc:It's a scene in front of the theater in Annie Hall.

00:08:17Marc:I'm here with two guys.

00:08:18Marc:I'm with the cast of The Godfather.

00:08:20Marc:I'm standing here talking to two guys named Cheech.

00:08:22Marc:It was one guy named Cheech, but his name wasn't named Cheech.

00:08:26Marc:I forget his name now, but he was very excited for his wife.

00:08:29Marc:So his wife comes.

00:08:30Marc:I say hi, but I got to deal with the tire.

00:08:32Marc:And Jerry is at this point, like when I come back to see if the guy's going to open the gate, he's already trying to sort of...

00:08:38Marc:edge away from the situation and walk towards the theater.

00:08:41Marc:I'm like, where are you going?

00:08:42Marc:And the guy's like, I called AAA.

00:08:44Marc:I'm like, hang up.

00:08:45Marc:Don't call AAA.

00:08:46Marc:I'm going to take care of this.

00:08:48Marc:Hang up the phone.

00:08:49Marc:And his wife goes, come on, honey, hang up the phone.

00:08:51Marc:Let him deal with it.

00:08:52Marc:Don't make a big deal.

00:08:53Marc:I'm like, please, please go in the theater.

00:08:56Marc:Relax.

00:08:56Guest:You know, just let me deal with this.

00:08:58Guest:And he's like, you sure, Mark, I can take care of it.

00:09:00Guest:You know, I build buildings.

00:09:01Guest:I'm, you know, I'm building a high rise down on Pico.

00:09:04Guest:I'm the contract.

00:09:05Guest:I'm like, all right, all right.

00:09:06Marc:I got to get ready.

00:09:08Marc:And his wife's like, come on, he needs to get ready.

00:09:10Marc:I'm like, oh my God, what the fuck is happening?

00:09:12Marc:I got a flat tire.

00:09:13Marc:They open the gate and I'm like, do I call AAA?

00:09:16Marc:I don't want to fucking wait for AAA.

00:09:18Marc:I don't want someone out here waiting for AAA.

00:09:20Marc:I got to deal with this, man.

00:09:22Marc:So I just fucking empty my trunk and I get the jack.

00:09:24Marc:I got a spare in there.

00:09:25Marc:I fucking pull the tire off.

00:09:27Marc:I put the fucking spare on.

00:09:28Marc:It's now 740.

00:09:29Marc:The big guy has gone into the theater.

00:09:32Marc:I go into theater.

00:09:33Marc:I'm sweaty.

00:09:34Marc:I'm dirty from changing a tire.

00:09:36Marc:I don't know what the fuck is happening.

00:09:38Marc:But all I know in my head is that like, look, man, I don't believe in God shots.

00:09:42Marc:I don't believe in God.

00:09:43Marc:I don't believe in a mystical order to things, although occasionally I

00:09:47Marc:I'll be sitting upstairs in the room upstairs looking out the window, and a hummingbird will just hover and look right at me, right inside.

00:09:54Marc:I don't know who that is.

00:09:56Marc:I don't know if the bird is like, look, man, you all right?

00:09:58Marc:Where's the fucking... Why don't you fill up the feeder?

00:10:01Marc:Who are you?

00:10:01Marc:I don't know if that's my dead girlfriend sending a message.

00:10:05Marc:I don't know why...

00:10:07Marc:that my biggest concern is like, look, man, I don't want to perform for Meatheads.

00:10:11Marc:I don't want to fucking have to worry about that.

00:10:13Marc:I just want to open up and do my thing.

00:10:16Marc:And this guy shows up and I get up there and I'm like, I got to do the job now.

00:10:19Marc:All I'm worrying about is I don't want that guy to fucking start talking in the middle.

00:10:23Marc:Like, here we go.

00:10:24Marc:This is what are we doing?

00:10:26Marc:But this guy loves his wife.

00:10:28Marc:His wife is, you

00:10:29Marc:is my fan but I am all I'm worried about is like I don't want this guy making a scene so I get up on stage and I tell the whole story of what I'm telling you right now I guess it was a territorial thing like I am like a professional don't fuck with me this is my space this is what I know is happening so you got something you want to get out let's do it now I just gave you five minutes of my time I may told the story got some good laughs I know you're in here are we good nothing

00:10:57Marc:Great.

00:10:58Marc:I've established my territory.

00:10:59Marc:Now let's do the show.

00:11:01Marc:And it made me lean in, man.

00:11:03Marc:It made me fucking step up.

00:11:04Marc:It made me do the job.

00:11:05Marc:I'm like, you know what?

00:11:06Marc:I'm an entertainer.

00:11:07Marc:I've pride myself on being a club comic in a lot of ways.

00:11:10Marc:I can make anybody laugh.

00:11:11Marc:What am I worried about this guy?

00:11:13Marc:And I did an hour and 25 minutes and it was a lot of great stuff.

00:11:17Marc:Definitely a nice foundation for the work I need to do.

00:11:21Marc:And it gave me, uh, it made me realize that, you know, I'm ready, you know, I'll go do those clubs and we'll, you know, I'll have, I'll have enough to talk about.

00:11:27Marc:I don't know why I didn't believe that.

00:11:28Marc:I, I, I go on Instagram live and do it an hour and a half wandering around my house with my goddamn cats, Buster and Sammy Redd, Shmooley and Booster.

00:11:39Marc:But then after the show, I go outside and this guy's in this non-parking space.

00:11:42Marc:He's standing there as I walk out.

00:11:45Marc:He's got two flat tires.

00:11:46Marc:Someone flattened both his tires because he was parked wrong.

00:11:49Marc:He's like, if you want to come see the high rise.

00:11:52Marc:I'm like, I get it.

00:11:52Marc:I get it.

00:11:53Marc:I'm good.

00:11:54Marc:I'm good.

00:11:54Marc:He's like, what are you doing?

00:11:55Marc:Did you call AAA?

00:11:56Marc:She's calling him.

00:11:57Marc:Can you believe it?

00:11:58Marc:Two flat tires.

00:11:59Marc:And I'm like, I can't, man.

00:12:01Marc:It was nice meeting you.

00:12:03Marc:I got out of there.

00:12:04Marc:I got out of there.

00:12:05Marc:It was quite a night.

00:12:08Marc:But it felt good.

00:12:09Marc:It felt good.

00:12:10Marc:I don't know if anyone cares.

00:12:12Marc:I don't know if it's relevant.

00:12:14Marc:I need it to be relevant to me.

00:12:15Marc:And it felt that way.

00:12:17Marc:It felt like there's things to do.

00:12:19Marc:There's places to go.

00:12:20Marc:The world that is my world, the world of people that give a shit about my world will enjoy what I have to say.

00:12:27Marc:I can't speak for all the other worlds.

00:12:29Marc:So many worlds, people.

00:12:31Marc:So many fucking worlds.

00:12:33Marc:Right?

00:12:34Marc:Right?

00:12:34Marc:So Danny Trejo on Monday and John Swab today.

00:12:38Marc:John Swab also in recovery.

00:12:41Marc:Got a bit of time.

00:12:42Marc:And it turns out these movies he made, both of the Running with the Hunted, is that what it's called?

00:12:47Marc:Run with the Hunted, I think.

00:12:48Marc:And Body Brokers come from his direct experience.

00:12:53Marc:And it's pretty devastating and pretty dark.

00:12:58Marc:And this is a dark tale.

00:13:00Marc:But he is sober and he does seem grounded.

00:13:02Marc:And it's a hell of a story.

00:13:06Marc:Oklahoma story.

00:13:08Marc:But I was thrilled to talk to him.

00:13:10Marc:This is a heavy recovery week.

00:13:12Marc:Big recovery week here on WTF.

00:13:16Marc:Some dark tales that end up okay, man.

00:13:19Marc:There is hope.

00:13:20Marc:There is hope.

00:13:22Marc:You can get off it.

00:13:23Marc:You can stop it.

00:13:25Marc:I just talked to a person I kind of know, but I kind of grew up with.

00:13:28Marc:They have a drinking problem.

00:13:30Marc:I mean, it's something so common.

00:13:32Marc:There needs to be an open dialogue around it, but you can recover.

00:13:36Marc:You can change as my two guests this week speak to.

00:13:41Marc:Body Brokers is now available to buy or rent on digital and on demand platforms, or you can watch it on Cinemax starting tomorrow, July 9th.

00:13:49Marc:He's got a new film as well coming out with most of the same cast, Melissa Leo and the crew.

00:13:54Marc:Ida Red begins playing on the festival circuit in August and will be coming to theaters later this year.

00:14:01Marc:You know, I didn't know what to expect.

00:14:04Marc:And.

00:14:06Marc:And I was glad I talked to this guy because I really I think that the work he did was was important.

00:14:11Marc:It certainly shined a light on something and certainly humanized a very dark the dark world of addiction, but also the the very dark world of recovery scamming.

00:14:24Marc:So this is me talking to John Swab.

00:14:35Guest:What are you doing here?

00:14:36Guest:Just come in for a thing?

00:14:37Guest:Dude, I came in, you know, I've been listening to this show a long time.

00:14:41Guest:Oh, really?

00:14:42Guest:Dude, I mean, nine years.

00:14:44Guest:Wow.

00:14:45Guest:Oh, thanks, man.

00:14:46Guest:Yeah, of course.

00:14:47Guest:So when he told me, I was like, well, I'm going to the garage, man.

00:14:52Guest:You know, I'm not going to do, you know, because all the interviews I've done for this movie have been, you know, virtually.

00:14:56Guest:So I was...

00:14:57Marc:Well, you know, I've been thinking about the movie.

00:14:59Marc:I've been thinking about Tulsa.

00:15:00Marc:I watched one of the other movies, the one that was easier to find, Run with the Hunted, I watched.

00:15:06Marc:And I couldn't find the other one.

00:15:08Marc:The other one seemed to be harder to find.

00:15:10Guest:The other one, I think, has been... Yeah, it's been pulled from the internet.

00:15:14Guest:Because of Marilyn Manson, or what?

00:15:16Guest:I'm not certain, but around the same time that that happened, it...

00:15:20Guest:Really?

00:15:21Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:15:22Guest:It's called Let Me Make You a Martyr?

00:15:23Guest:Let Me Make You a Martyr.

00:15:24Marc:They just pull it?

00:15:24Marc:They don't alert you?

00:15:26Marc:Like, you know, you're part of this?

00:15:27Guest:I, you know, the company that we did that deal with, I have some issues with.

00:15:33Guest:Oh, yeah?

00:15:33Guest:Yeah, yeah, you know.

00:15:34Guest:Huh.

00:15:36Guest:Yeah, well, I mean, so where do you live now?

00:15:38Guest:I live in Woodstock, New York right now.

00:15:41Guest:Oh, wow, that's nice.

00:15:42Guest:Yeah.

00:15:42Marc:How long have you been up there?

00:15:43Guest:I've been there about six years.

00:15:45Guest:Really?

00:15:45Guest:Yeah.

00:15:45Guest:Did you buy a farm?

00:15:46Guest:No, I wish I could afford a farm.

00:15:49Guest:You're not living in an apartment, are you?

00:15:51Guest:No, I live on a nice house on a piece of land, and I actually just bought a house in Tulsa where I'm from this week.

00:15:59Guest:Going back?

00:16:00Guest:Going back.

00:16:01Guest:I do a lot of work there, a lot of movies.

00:16:03Guest:Yeah.

00:16:05Marc:Yeah, I mean, I don't have any sense...

00:16:08Marc:Like, I grew up in New Mexico, driven through Oklahoma.

00:16:11Marc:Right.

00:16:12Marc:I've only talked to a couple people who are actually from Oklahoma.

00:16:15Marc:I talked to Wayne from Oklahoma City, Wayne Coyne.

00:16:18Marc:Sure.

00:16:18Marc:And then I talked to Tim Blake Nielsen.

00:16:22Guest:Yeah, love that guy.

00:16:23Marc:Yeah, one of the great Oklahoma Jews.

00:16:24Marc:Yep.

00:16:25Marc:One of the five.

00:16:26Marc:One of the five.

00:16:28Guest:I know the other four.

00:16:29Marc:You do.

00:16:31Marc:And, you know, I know there's a rough history to it, but you grew up your whole life in Tulsa.

00:16:36Marc:Until I was 18, yeah, yeah.

00:16:38Marc:Like, what is that?

00:16:40Marc:Was your family there for generations?

00:16:43Guest:You know, I was just getting the history from my grandmother about all this.

00:16:45Guest:Really?

00:16:46Guest:Yeah.

00:16:46Guest:So they were in Missouri before that.

00:16:49Guest:Right.

00:16:49Guest:God, people wanted to leave Missouri even then.

00:16:52Guest:Yeah.

00:16:53Guest:I mean, it's still rough.

00:16:56Guest:And they moved to Indian Territory.

00:16:59Guest:And she doesn't know why.

00:17:00Guest:Really?

00:17:01Guest:Yeah.

00:17:02Marc:Her grandparents?

00:17:03Guest:Her grandparents, yeah.

00:17:04Guest:Yeah, and she was giving me that.

00:17:05Guest:I mean, two days ago I saw her and she was telling me all this.

00:17:06Guest:It was really interesting.

00:17:09Guest:And yeah, so she's been there ever since.

00:17:11Marc:Wow.

00:17:12Marc:The Indian Territory part sounds interesting.

00:17:14Guest:Yeah, it is interesting.

00:17:15Guest:And I guess we're Native or a portion thereof, but by whoever, I guess it was my great-grandmother, didn't sign the scrolls for fear of being, you know.

00:17:27Guest:What do you mean the scrolls?

00:17:29Guest:Apparently, I'm going to botch this, but...

00:17:33Guest:you know if you signed the scrolls we'll call them um you know you basically are on record as having you know native american person yep and you can get free health care and all these kinds of things casino money exactly exactly yeah so anyway um free health care and the casino money exactly yeah the new perk yeah the american dream yeah

00:17:54Marc:But so you don't know.

00:17:55Marc:You've got no proof is what you're saying.

00:17:56Marc:I don't have any proof.

00:17:57Marc:You're not going to be able to produce your movie with any of that weird casino money.

00:18:00Marc:No, no.

00:18:01Marc:But if you did know, what tribe do you think it would be?

00:18:04Marc:A creek is what I've been told.

00:18:06Marc:I can't imagine, like just talking about it now, the expanse of all those people and where they ended up is horrifying.

00:18:12Marc:And you can feel the weight of it though there, can't you?

00:18:15Marc:It's heavy.

00:18:15Guest:Yeah.

00:18:16Marc:Like in Tulsa, I imagine just on the streets.

00:18:19Marc:Yeah.

00:18:19Guest:Yeah, I mean, Tulsa's an interesting place, and I've grown to realize that the longer I was away from it and now the more I'm there and older, there's a lot of history there.

00:18:32Guest:Right.

00:18:32Marc:What draws you to it still other than like, hey, there's that store I used to go to?

00:18:36Guest:uh just work you know i mean i i we i've made i guess um five movies there now and um so you got two in the can that aren't out yeah okay we just wrapped one in montana actually that was not shot in oklahoma but that one's called ida red no that one's coming out this fall yeah uh we just shot a movie called candyland which is about uh lot lizards uh a horror movie uh that comes out i don't know i was hoping it was about the board game

00:19:00Marc:It's, you know.

00:19:06Marc:So you got Melissa Leo in the new one, too, again, huh?

00:19:08Guest:In Ida Red, yeah.

00:19:09Marc:Yeah.

00:19:09Guest:I love that woman.

00:19:10Marc:Yeah, she's amazing.

00:19:11Marc:Yeah.

00:19:11Marc:What's that movie about?

00:19:13Guest:That movie is about... It's kind of like, you know, after we got done with Body Brokers, I needed to kind of...

00:19:19Guest:take a break from the social responsibility of a movie like that.

00:19:23Guest:And I love 70s crime cinema, which is kind of an homage to Straight Time or The Getaway.

00:19:34Guest:Oh, really?

00:19:35Guest:I love Peckinpah.

00:19:37Marc:Peckinpah, all day long, man.

00:19:39Marc:I used to do a yearly Peckinpah Film Festival.

00:19:41Marc:Really?

00:19:42Marc:Yeah, but I'd go all the way back to ride the high country and go all the way through.

00:19:46Marc:Just watch them.

00:19:48Marc:I love them.

00:19:49Marc:I love the, like, I can watch Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia.

00:19:53Guest:That's my favorite.

00:19:55Guest:I mean, it's, I mean.

00:19:56Marc:Where he's just talking.

00:19:57Guest:More notes.

00:19:58Guest:Talking to the head.

00:19:59Guest:Oh, man.

00:19:59Guest:Like, yeah.

00:20:00Marc:Yeah.

00:20:01Marc:Just flies buzzing around.

00:20:03Marc:Yeah.

00:20:03Marc:Yeah, that movie's crazy.

00:20:05Marc:Yeah.

00:20:05Marc:And I watched, what do I like?

00:20:07Marc:I think my least favorite one.

00:20:09Marc:I even watched, I hadn't watched The Killer Elite in a long time.

00:20:12Marc:And like maybe since I saw it with my dad or like when I was a kid.

00:20:15Marc:Sure.

00:20:16Marc:I watch that again.

00:20:16Marc:It's much better than I remember.

00:20:18Marc:Right.

00:20:19Marc:And I don't watch Convoy, although they shot that in Albuquerque when I was a kid.

00:20:24Marc:And I went down to the Hilton Hotel to see if I get autographs from the people in Convoy because it was one of those weird everyone was in it movies.

00:20:31Marc:Sure.

00:20:32Marc:And I ended up meeting Ernest Borgnine.

00:20:34Marc:That was a big day.

00:20:34Guest:That's pretty cool.

00:20:36Guest:That's pretty cool.

00:20:36Guest:My favorite's Getaway.

00:20:38Guest:Yeah, that's great.

00:20:39Guest:Steve McQueen, I just can't get enough of that guy.

00:20:41Marc:I talked to Sally Struthers about it.

00:20:43Marc:Wow.

00:20:43Marc:Did you listen to that one?

00:20:44Marc:No.

00:20:44Marc:Because that's the one she's in, right?

00:20:46Marc:She plays The Veterinarian's Wife.

00:20:47Marc:And we talked about that dude, that guy who was in The Godfather.

00:20:50Guest:Yes.

00:20:51Marc:What's his name?

00:20:52Guest:I wish I could remember his name.

00:20:53Guest:I can't remember his name, but I can't forget his face.

00:20:55Guest:Yeah.

00:20:55Marc:Well, she talked about that scene with him.

00:20:58Marc:That was a great character.

00:21:00Marc:He played the Turk in Sollozzo in The Godfather.

00:21:03Marc:Those guys that were around, those players.

00:21:06Marc:You seem to be trying to build a little crew.

00:21:08Guest:You know, I like working with people I like.

00:21:12Guest:And it's fun to make movies, especially the size of movies we've been making.

00:21:18Guest:You know, it's much easier if the people, you know, are friends of yours, you know.

00:21:22Guest:Sure, yeah.

00:21:23Marc:So like in Tulsa, you got brothers and sisters?

00:21:26Guest:I have a little brother and a little sister, yeah.

00:21:28Guest:Oh, really?

00:21:29Guest:You're the oldest one?

00:21:30Guest:I am.

00:21:30Guest:And your folks are still around?

00:21:31Guest:They are.

00:21:32Marc:And what do they do?

00:21:34Guest:My father is a criminal defense attorney now.

00:21:37Guest:Really?

00:21:38Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:21:39Marc:What do you mean now?

00:21:40Guest:He used to be on the other side.

00:21:41Guest:side uh you know so when i was a kid he was uh part of like the prosecutor prosecutor for those paying his dues yeah paying his dues and then they just flip over and try to get people off yeah well you know you have enough kids and you need to you know yeah make money i guess yeah no of course yeah oh that's interesting what's your mom do she's uh she's an artist you know like what painting all sorts of stuff you know um

00:22:03Guest:Video stuff.

00:22:03Guest:When I was a kid, it was, you know, she was doing photography, doing painting.

00:22:07Guest:Yeah.

00:22:08Marc:My mom was like that, too.

00:22:10Marc:So there is a, I guess I have to, and I think most of us have to not make assumptions about Tulsa.

00:22:17Marc:You're telling me that, like, I'm getting the sense that there's some, you know, kind of sophisticated, intelligent, creative people in Tulsa.

00:22:24Guest:Yeah, there is.

00:22:25Guest:There is.

00:22:26Guest:There's a community?

00:22:27Guest:There's a community.

00:22:29Guest:And I guess that's changed a lot since I was a kid.

00:22:33Guest:But yeah, it seems to be kind of building a bit of a community.

00:22:36Marc:Do you feel that people are coming back?

00:22:38Marc:Do you feel that it's on the verge of some sort of resurgence?

00:22:42Guest:I don't know about a resurgence.

00:22:44Marc:Is Tulsa going to be the new Austin?

00:22:46Guest:You know, I think that's their pitch.

00:22:49Guest:But I know that...

00:22:51Guest:You know, since the pandemic, specifically, I mean, tons of people from, you know, California and, you know, they're moving, I think, Texas, California, or Texas, New Mexico, and Montana have seen, like, you know, crazy amounts of people just moving in from the East and West Coast.

00:23:10Marc:Yeah, I missed my shot.

00:23:11Marc:I grew up in New Mexico.

00:23:12Guest:Right.

00:23:12Marc:They're kind of holding on to this idea, like, I'm going to buy a house in New Mexico, but I could never really follow through with it because, like, what am I going to do there?

00:23:19Marc:Right.

00:23:19Marc:Yeah, no, I'm all...

00:23:20Marc:I don't know if I want to live there, but it'd be nice to have a house there, but then how much time am I going to spend in there?

00:23:25Marc:And when I go back, I'm like, okay, so I'm home.

00:23:28Marc:What am I going to do here?

00:23:29Marc:Right.

00:23:29Marc:But you're going to be sitting around writing scripts and putting shit together.

00:23:33Guest:Yeah, my wife loves it there.

00:23:35Marc:Your wife is in the movie.

00:23:36Guest:She's in Body Brokers.

00:23:38Guest:She's in a lot of my movies, yeah.

00:23:40Guest:She's in Body Brokers?

00:23:41Guest:I'm trying to remember.

00:23:42Guest:What'd she play?

00:23:42Guest:She plays the girl in the treatment center with Melissa Leo.

00:23:46Guest:She's crying and telling you about her daughter.

00:23:48Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:23:50Marc:Yeah, but she's got that great part in Run with the Hunted.

00:23:53Guest:Yeah, yeah, she's great.

00:23:54Marc:As the woman that the guy saved.

00:23:56Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:23:57Marc:When he was a kid.

00:23:58Guest:And she's in Let Me Make You a Martyr.

00:24:00Guest:Yeah.

00:24:00Guest:She's in Candyland.

00:24:00Guest:She's in a great band called the Bobby Lees.

00:24:02Guest:Yeah.

00:24:03Guest:Yeah, so that's what she does, yeah.

00:24:04Guest:You guys got kids?

00:24:05Guest:No kids.

00:24:06Guest:Is that going to happen?

00:24:07Guest:I don't know what we're going to do.

00:24:08Marc:Sorry.

00:24:09Marc:I don't want to pressure you or anything.

00:24:11Marc:But let's talk about like Tulsa in terms of like, because I'm glad I watched the run with the hunted because, you know, I, it was one of those movies where I don't know if it was intentional or not.

00:24:23Marc:I don't know what is intentional.

00:24:25Marc:on behalf of directors.

00:24:27Marc:But, like, I realized this morning that you're kind of playing, you know, the... Like, because I couldn't quite understand the kind of Oliver Twist nature of the thing, you know, in terms of, you know, the setup.

00:24:40Marc:You know, like, there's, like, a Fagan and there's all... But then it wasn't really that.

00:24:44Marc:And then I realized, because of the reference in the movie, that you're kind of playing the neutered S.E.

00:24:49Marc:Hinton sense of...

00:24:53Marc:childhood against the realities of what that childhood becomes.

00:24:58Marc:Sure, sure.

00:24:59Guest:Is that on purpose?

00:25:01Guest:I think, I guess so, yeah.

00:25:03Guest:And that was beautifully put.

00:25:06Marc:Because he's reading S.E.

00:25:07Marc:Hinton, and it's clear that when you get into the grid of what those kind of lives become,

00:25:12Marc:You know, kids who are on the streets for so long.

00:25:15Marc:And then like his little crew, they all seem so innocent, even though they were supposed to be criminals.

00:25:20Marc:And I don't know if it was just a matter of like who you could cast or who you found, where you shot it or what it was.

00:25:25Marc:But it definitely felt like those kids came out of like the outsiders.

00:25:29Marc:Right.

00:25:30Marc:And Michael Pitt's character was like, you know,

00:25:32Marc:a hardened fucking monster in a way.

00:25:35Marc:Right, right.

00:25:36Marc:And he was reading S.E.

00:25:37Marc:Hinton.

00:25:37Marc:Right.

00:25:38Marc:So it was sort of, I realized, because when I'm watching, I'm like, you could be a kid and watch this with your parents if you wanted to.

00:25:45Marc:Right.

00:25:45Marc:Though it doesn't end well.

00:25:46Marc:You're not a Hollywood ending guy, that's for sure.

00:25:49Marc:Right, right.

00:25:50Marc:It's more of a poetic ending.

00:25:52Marc:I guess, yeah.

00:25:53Marc:Poetic justice ending.

00:25:54Guest:Yeah.

00:25:55Guest:That was my first movie I made sober.

00:25:57Guest:So, you know, I came out of, you know, the depths of everything and wanted to do so much in one movie.

00:26:06Guest:And, you know, I think there's a lot of things I was trying in that movie and some worked out better than others.

00:26:12Guest:And I'm really proud of it.

00:26:13Guest:But it's definitely a lot.

00:26:17Guest:Yeah.

00:26:17Marc:Yeah, well, I think that whether that was intentional or not, it was sort of interesting to me that there were these two worlds.

00:26:23Marc:And I didn't really realize it until this morning, because when I was watching it, there was part of me that was like, well, is he trying to sort of get kids to watch it?

00:26:32Marc:There was a tone to those kids where it almost felt kind of like designed to help kids.

00:26:39Marc:Sure.

00:26:40Sure.

00:26:40Guest:i think yeah i mean i was really at the time fascinated with the idea of i really wanted to make a kids movie yeah because i grew up like you know outsiders and rumblefish were filmed where i was from so i had shit rumblefish yeah i mean that's that's that i prefer that to the outsiders but uh

00:26:59Guest:But, you know, so I had this weird attachment to these movies, and I wanted to tell half a kid's story, and then, you know, where do you think it's going, and then take it the exact opposite direction, and, you know, turn it into this other thing, and, you know, so, yeah, I think you're...

00:27:17Guest:The analysis of it did, and it was great.

00:27:19Guest:Yeah, critique was great.

00:27:20Marc:Well, yeah, because what becomes different is that there's usually some sort of lesson in those movies, and some people go down, but not that hard, right?

00:27:35Marc:Right.

00:27:35Marc:But in your version, it's like, here are these kids, and the scene in the truck, and just the whole play of what is Ron Perlman?

00:27:44Marc:I mean, I'm generally speaking.

00:27:46Marc:You know what?

00:27:47Marc:I mean, I've talked to him.

00:27:50Marc:He's a lovely guy.

00:27:51Guest:He's hysterical.

00:27:52Guest:Yeah.

00:27:52Marc:And he's a great actor.

00:27:53Marc:He has a hell of a presence.

00:27:54Marc:But that character was like, there was moments where you're like, is this guy really fucking evil?

00:28:00Marc:Yeah.

00:28:00Marc:But I thought the script was great in that it didn't let on a lot of stuff.

00:28:03Marc:It kept it mysterious.

00:28:04Marc:You didn't know how dirty people were.

00:28:06Marc:Right.

00:28:07Marc:So I liked that.

00:28:08Marc:And then I started to wonder, okay, Tulsa, how much of an influence was Larry Clark on you coming?

00:28:13Guest:Huge.

00:28:14Guest:I mean, I... That was the hero?

00:28:17Marc:That was the guy, right?

00:28:18Guest:That's the Tulsa guy.

00:28:19Guest:There's a few Tulsa guys, but he's kind of the, you know, I guess the black sheep of the Tulsa guys, you know?

00:28:27Marc:Literally, I think, you know... Well, just the book of photographs.

00:28:31Marc:Yeah.

00:28:31Marc:I mean, because I was thinking about that.

00:28:34Marc:I was wondering, because...

00:28:36Marc:Because Michael Pitt was in Bully.

00:28:38Marc:Yep.

00:28:39Marc:And I don't know what happened to that guy.

00:28:41Marc:He sort of disappeared.

00:28:42Marc:It was good to see him.

00:28:42Marc:I didn't even fucking recognize him when I was watching him in your movie.

00:28:45Marc:Yeah.

00:28:46Marc:Because he's a good actor.

00:28:47Marc:He's an unbelievable actor.

00:28:48Guest:Yeah.

00:28:49Guest:He really is.

00:28:49Guest:Yeah.

00:28:50Marc:And also, you know, who I like is the guy who played the dirty dad in that movie.

00:28:55Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:28:55Marc:Brad.

00:28:56Marc:Brad.

00:28:56Guest:Yeah.

00:28:57Marc:Brad Carter.

00:28:57Guest:Yeah.

00:28:57Marc:Brad Carter.

00:28:58Marc:Yeah.

00:28:58Marc:Like, I've seen him in stuff where you're like, oh, fuck, that guy.

00:29:00Guest:He steals any scene he's in.

00:29:02Guest:Yeah.

00:29:02Guest:Right.

00:29:02Marc:Yeah.

00:29:03Marc:But but it did remind me that there is a you know, that you're kind of tapped into a lineage there.

00:29:09Marc:So, you know, because you go back to kids with the Larry, which is Ray Clark's other movie.

00:29:14Marc:He's made a few.

00:29:16Marc:But really, the book Tulsa is a menacing kind of impressionable book.

00:29:21Guest:I remember when I first saw it, I was a kid.

00:29:24Guest:Right, yeah.

00:29:26Guest:And you're like, wow, it's about my city.

00:29:28Marc:Yeah, right.

00:29:29Guest:You know, but it changed me.

00:29:30Guest:I remember, you know, there's movies like that that I saw that changed me.

00:29:33Guest:And just realizing, you know, I knew what a camera was, but I didn't know it could do that, you know?

00:29:38Guest:It could go in those places.

00:29:39Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:29:40Guest:Yeah, I mean, Larry's book is, you know...

00:29:44Marc:there's a couple of them right there's there's there's tulsa and then there's the ones he shot in times square right and there's the teenagers um teenage west yeah yeah yeah um yeah there's a few others but i think yeah tulsa was those just those pictures of that idiot who shot himself you know like in the leg right you're like what the fuck are these guys they're just sitting around shooting speed right yeah hanging out with guns yeah well i was like that's oklahoma in my head

00:30:07Guest:Yeah.

00:30:09Guest:Well, you know, it kind of is in a lot of places.

00:30:13Guest:And I'm proud of it, you know, in a weird way.

00:30:15Guest:Because I'm, you know, that guy at a cellular level.

00:30:20Guest:But I think, you know, people don't realize how big of an influence Larry was on pop culture or, you

00:30:28Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:30:29Guest:At large.

00:30:29Guest:You know, just with those photos.

00:30:30Guest:I mean, you know, Scorsese, you know, references them.

00:30:34Guest:Paul Schrader does.

00:30:35Guest:I mean, a lot of people that- That makes sense.

00:30:37Guest:Paul Schrader.

00:30:38Guest:Yeah.

00:30:40Guest:I love Paul Schrader too, man.

00:30:41Marc:I'm sure.

00:30:42Marc:Why wouldn't you?

00:30:42Marc:I do too.

00:30:43Marc:Like, you know, these are dark men with problems.

00:30:46Marc:Yeah.

00:30:46Marc:Yeah, right.

00:30:49Marc:You know, I have that in me.

00:30:51Marc:I have that in me.

00:30:52Marc:Right.

00:30:52Marc:I have the feeling you went further out than I did.

00:30:55Guest:Right, right.

00:30:55Marc:Well, what was your trip?

00:30:56Marc:How'd you get all fucked up?

00:30:57Marc:When did that start?

00:30:58Guest:Uh, you know, same thing you probably have heard a bunch, you know, where I just, uh, 13, 14 came out, you know, just feeling a little off and, uh, you know, just slowly, you know, mixed up along the way, you know, got into the life.

00:31:13Guest:Yeah.

00:31:13Marc:Your parents seem like they were okay people.

00:31:16Guest:They are good people.

00:31:17Guest:You know, I just think, uh, you know, when I, uh,

00:31:20Guest:was growing up there it was a very um kind of walled off place you know tulsa small community um very religious and uh did you grow up with the christian stuff oh yeah oh yeah so your folks are that way yeah yeah yeah

00:31:35Marc:Yeah, so I guess there's a lot of Jesus in Oklahoma.

00:31:37Guest:What brand?

00:31:39Guest:Jesus, guns, beef, teen pregnancy.

00:31:42Guest:We do those things well.

00:31:43Marc:Oh, yeah?

00:31:43Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:31:44Marc:That's good, man.

00:31:46Marc:Is that on the sort of the states kind of like, what about Oklahoma?

00:31:50Marc:Teen pregnancy, meat, and Jesus.

00:31:53Marc:Come on.

00:31:55Marc:Come on down.

00:31:56Marc:Most of you are welcome.

00:31:57Marc:We'll let you know if you're not.

00:32:02Marc:Yeah.

00:32:02Marc:So how religious?

00:32:05Guest:uh the the you oh me when you were brought up uh when i was brought i mean i went to some catholic school for a little while oh so it's catholic not baptist no no uh you know and and you know it's pretty just religious place you know now i am not uh i'm more i guess you call spiritual or whatever you know um so that means how long you've been sober

00:32:26Guest:coming up on six years oh yeah pretty fresh still yeah yeah geez yeah so how bad you get pretty bad yeah pretty bad yeah uh it was pretty rough yeah yeah yeah like a lot of different things mostly booze or did you get like out of your mind no it was it was mostly uh speed junk oh yeah yeah well that's tough one good for you junk speed crack

00:32:49Marc:oh crack crack crack really uh that's good when i met that that you know it was yeah beautiful yeah wow just sitting around with that pipe yep yeah waiting 15 minutes yep and going again going again hell of a life what'd you do today that yep all the way into the night yep and then you come down with the dope yep oh you had a system yep yep landing gear you called it yeah

00:33:14Marc:That was the gift and the curse of my cocaine days is I didn't have a connection for landing gear.

00:33:19Marc:Yeah.

00:33:19Marc:And I wasn't really a dope guy.

00:33:21Marc:So, like, you know, it was just me sitting around, you know, my heart pounding, you know, jerking off for nine hours to see if I could come down.

00:33:30Marc:But the lack of landing gear, I think, is what got me sober more quick.

00:33:33Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:33:34Marc:You lose your mind quicker with that.

00:33:35Guest:No, the landing gear kept me out there quite a long time.

00:33:40Guest:Well, you look pretty healthy.

00:33:42Guest:I've made some changes recently, diet changes.

00:33:45Marc:Oh, really?

00:33:45Marc:Yeah.

00:33:46Marc:So you were eating shit for five years?

00:33:48Guest:I was eating a pound of bacon for the first year of sobriety every day.

00:33:53Guest:A pound?

00:33:54Guest:Yeah.

00:33:54Guest:Oh, that's not that much.

00:33:55Guest:Yeah, but it's good.

00:33:56Guest:You wouldn't think, but it adds up, you know?

00:33:58Marc:Yeah.

00:33:58Marc:But that's one of those things where you're first getting sober, people are like, hey, man, as long as you're not drinking, do whatever you want.

00:34:03Guest:Right, right.

00:34:04Marc:And you're like, well, what can I do with that?

00:34:05Marc:Yeah, exactly.

00:34:06Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:34:07Marc:There's a million things I could do.

00:34:08Marc:There's bacon, porn, gambling.

00:34:11Marc:This is great.

00:34:12Marc:All of them.

00:34:13Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:34:15Marc:Bacon, I hadn't thought of that.

00:34:18Marc:How's your blood numbers?

00:34:20Guest:You know, I went and did my blood, I guess it was a year ago, and they pulled it out, and they were like, this is like motor oil.

00:34:25Guest:You need to change up everything.

00:34:28Guest:Stop the bacon.

00:34:29Guest:Yeah, so I started exercising and all that, and I feel much better, yeah.

00:34:33Marc:Well, God, you got through that five years, man, and that's hard.

00:34:36Marc:It's hard.

00:34:37Marc:I know dope guys, a lot of times they can't quite do it, so they end up just figuring out a way to kind of chip along, not with dope, but maybe a little booze, a little weed, whatever it is.

00:34:48Guest:I tried all that, you know.

00:34:49Guest:Can't do it.

00:34:49Guest:It just doesn't work for me.

00:34:50Guest:Yeah, because you want to go back the other day.

00:34:52Guest:Exactly, yeah.

00:34:53Guest:It's like, what am I doing here?

00:34:54Guest:Yeah.

00:34:54Marc:So you were driven by, it sounds like in the same way that I am, like that your heroes were these dark characters.

00:35:03Marc:that somehow managed to survive.

00:35:05Marc:I was thinking about that today, about these, there's certain guys that just don't die.

00:35:09Marc:And then there are guys that do die.

00:35:12Marc:But anytime you're, if your hero, especially if your hero is some sort of outlaw or some guy who's living out there on the fringe creatively and they don't die, I don't think it's good for us.

00:35:23Marc:I think it's, like sometimes when they, because I was thinking about like, you know, even like Bowie, you know, I can't remember the last time I bought a Bowie record, but when he dies, you're like, oh man.

00:35:33Marc:Gotta buy everything, yeah.

00:35:34Marc:Or just like, I can't believe he died.

00:35:35Marc:What do you mean?

00:35:36Marc:He wasn't that young, he was sick or whatever, but there's something about those guys dying that implies our own mortality, right?

00:35:43Marc:Because we don't know it, but we kind of expect those guys to live forever, right?

00:35:47Marc:So it's just sort of wild that the drug heroes, a lot of them are still fucking kicking.

00:35:53Yeah.

00:35:53Marc:What did you think of Schrader's last movie?

00:35:56Marc:What was it, the Priest one?

00:35:57Guest:The Priest one.

00:35:58Guest:I mean, I enjoyed it.

00:36:01Guest:People really loved it.

00:36:02Guest:I didn't love it like they loved it.

00:36:04Guest:I'm more partial to hardcore in the old- I just watched that again recently.

00:36:09Guest:Oh, man.

00:36:10Marc:That one, it's crazy, right?

00:36:12Guest:I'm a huge Peter Boyle fan, too, so... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:36:15Guest:Yeah, I mean, when he shows up in the diner, and then the guy, you know, when he's in the theater watching the video, I mean, it's a great... With George C. Scott?

00:36:22Guest:Yeah, it's a great... With, like, his hand over one eye?

00:36:25Marc:Yeah, I mean, it's... And then when he plays the director?

00:36:28Marc:Yeah.

00:36:28Marc:And puts on that mustache.

00:36:29Marc:Oh, man, it's awesome.

00:36:30Marc:Yeah.

00:36:30Marc:Like that was going to end well, though.

00:36:32Marc:That's one of those movies where it's like, is that a good ending?

00:36:35Guest:Yeah.

00:36:35Guest:Well, you know, I think that's what was so nice about movies back then is that they just ended like that.

00:36:40Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:36:40Guest:You know, and now you're like, what?

00:36:42Guest:Yeah.

00:36:42Guest:You know, and nowadays, I mean, it's a problem if you end a movie like that.

00:36:46Guest:You know, I can tell you firsthand, like people don't.

00:36:48Marc:they don't want that you know i mean there's all this marvel shit out there and everybody wants everything sure but even the smaller movies you know are like it's it takes a certain amount of fortitude i guess or courage to put them out there it's easier to put them out there but i guess the mainstream audience i guess what we're learning is there's a lot of people that just want to feel better right or want to avoid life right right so they really cannot understand why you would put a movie out exactly that makes them feel worse right

00:37:16Guest:Which are my favorite kind of movies.

00:37:18Guest:Exactly.

00:37:19Guest:Well, they're honest.

00:37:19Marc:There's an honesty to them.

00:37:21Marc:I mean, come on, man.

00:37:22Marc:The end of Run with the Hunted is sort of like a poetic thing.

00:37:27Guest:You know, that movie, I learned more making that movie than any other movie I've made.

00:37:32Guest:And one of the reasons is because when Michael came, we had shot 10 days, and we didn't have that character to play the older version, Michael's character.

00:37:43Guest:Okay.

00:37:43Guest:So Michael finally agreed and he came to town and he wanted, you know, we ended up rewriting the script for like two days together.

00:37:52Guest:And so a lot of that portion of the movie was, I wouldn't say improvised, but more instinctively made on the day.

00:38:02Guest:So...

00:38:04Guest:I wasn't as precious about the script there as I was with other films.

00:38:09Guest:So I don't think it was something that I really set out to do months before.

00:38:13Guest:In the movies, I'm realizing more about myself, each one I make, but with Body Brokers 2, they're kind of all about a cycle.

00:38:21Guest:And she's driving off into the night, he's there, and now she's kind of assumed responsibility for these boys.

00:38:29Guest:And how he assumed responsibility for her when...

00:38:33Marc:oh i see so that was the idea yeah yeah yeah i don't know if i put that together like i mean i guess we should tell people what it's about it's about this these two kids who were like 13 years old and they were neighbors and and the the boy had a sort of stable family and this girl not so stable to the degree where you know her father was this drunken incestuous pig so then you know the 13 year old boy you know

00:38:58Marc:Well, it kills the old man and then splits and grows up on the streets under the tutelage of some modern day Fagans.

00:39:08Guest:Pretty much, yeah.

00:39:09Marc:Yeah, yeah, there you go.

00:39:10Marc:And then she goes to find him.

00:39:11Marc:Right.

00:39:12Marc:Like he's reported missing and stays missing and lives a life of crime.

00:39:17Marc:And she goes to find him and then does find him.

00:39:20Marc:Well, that's the story.

00:39:21Marc:So the idea is that she's got to take care of those four kids?

00:39:24Guest:I guess so, yeah.

00:39:26Marc:I don't know that after it was done that I registered that.

00:39:30Marc:I guess what does happen to him?

00:39:32Marc:There was part of me that sort of like I thought he was just going to say, like, okay, you guys can run free now.

00:39:37Yeah.

00:39:38Guest:He says something similar to that, I think.

00:39:41Marc:But was that shot in Tulsa?

00:39:44Marc:Yes.

00:39:44Marc:So is it really that sparse?

00:39:45Marc:Because there are definitely long, big shots of open road there that didn't look like you had to close down the roads.

00:39:51Guest:No, I mean, it's amazing.

00:39:52Guest:You go out at like 10, 11 at night, and there's nobody on the streets.

00:39:59Guest:There's something really nice about that that I find.

00:40:02Guest:I love to go out and walk in the night.

00:40:05Marc:Nice or scary.

00:40:06Marc:Well, yeah.

00:40:06Guest:Yeah, both.

00:40:07Marc:Now these guys, because I was talking to my producer, I was telling him, it's like, so when you reach out to them, because I've been reached out to about movies.

00:40:17Marc:Sure.

00:40:17Marc:So usually it's sort of like, how long?

00:40:19Marc:How long do I got to shoot?

00:40:20Marc:Sure.

00:40:21Marc:How many days?

00:40:21Marc:Right.

00:40:22Marc:And that sometimes if the script is good, because I imagine, I know Melissa loves your writing and the writing is so good, so these guys want to do it.

00:40:27Marc:They don't know what's going to happen with the movie.

00:40:29Marc:Right.

00:40:29Marc:But usually it comes down to like, if it's a week...

00:40:32Marc:I'll do it, right?

00:40:33Guest:Yeah, some people, you know, it's funny because others would prefer more time.

00:40:37Guest:Yeah.

00:40:38Guest:You know, people like Melissa, she's like, I won't do three days, but I will do seven.

00:40:43Guest:Right.

00:40:43Guest:Even though it's the same amount of material.

00:40:45Guest:Just to make sure she does a great job.

00:40:47Guest:Yeah, and, you know, we just did a movie and it was the same thing on Candyland where the guy wanted extra time, same amount of money, you know, and I appreciate that kind of stuff.

00:40:56Guest:But, yeah, I mean, you usually assume...

00:40:58Guest:as little time as possible for most people.

00:41:01Guest:Yeah.

00:41:01Marc:Now, The Body Brokers, which is the movie that got us here, now, you went to rehab?

00:41:09Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:41:10Guest:How many?

00:41:11Guest:I lost, I mean, tens.

00:41:13Guest:Oh, really?

00:41:14Guest:Ten plus.

00:41:14Marc:So you were one of those.

00:41:15Guest:It took a while.

00:41:16Marc:It took a bit, yeah.

00:41:18Marc:Oh, man.

00:41:18Marc:Yeah.

00:41:19Marc:So you know that life.

00:41:22Marc:You know that experience.

00:41:23Marc:Very well, yeah.

00:41:24Marc:And you just kept going back, though.

00:41:26Marc:Yeah.

00:41:26Marc:Well, you know, did you get court ordered?

00:41:28Marc:No, no.

00:41:29Marc:You just you just couldn't fucking.

00:41:31Guest:No, it's not even that I couldn't.

00:41:32Guest:It was more so like, you know, I lived, you know, somewhere between on the street and then kind of wherever I could find for so long that Tulsa.

00:41:43Guest:No.

00:41:44Guest:And I mean, all over Los Angeles, New Jersey.

00:41:50Marc:What was that part of the life?

00:41:51Marc:You just went to these different... So you left Tulsa, and before you had started making movies, obviously.

00:41:59Marc:Right, right, right.

00:42:00Marc:And you went to New Jersey.

00:42:01Guest:No, I went to... I guess I went to Colorado for a little while.

00:42:05Guest:To do what?

00:42:06Guest:Sell drugs.

00:42:08Guest:Oh, okay.

00:42:08Guest:You know, got involved in that kind of stuff.

00:42:11Guest:Yeah.

00:42:11Guest:And then I came back to Oklahoma.

00:42:14Guest:When you were like 18?

00:42:15Guest:I was, yeah.

00:42:17Guest:19?

00:42:17Guest:18, 19, 20, and then I went to Chicago for a little bit.

00:42:21Guest:Too.

00:42:21Guest:You know, I got a scholarship to an art school there.

00:42:26Guest:Uh-huh.

00:42:26Guest:I applied, you know, put together a portfolio or whatever, and I spent, you know, I got about a cup of coffee there before I checked myself out.

00:42:34Guest:Oh, really?

00:42:34Guest:You had big plans, I'm sure.

00:42:36Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:42:37Marc:I'm going to do it right this time.

00:42:38Guest:Do it right.

00:42:38Guest:It's going to be great.

00:42:39Guest:And tried to kick dope up there.

00:42:41Guest:Didn't work.

00:42:42Guest:On your own.

00:42:44Guest:Yeah, on my own.

00:42:46Guest:And then I went to Los Angeles and San Diego, and it just got worse.

00:42:51Guest:Worse and worse and worse.

00:42:52Marc:And what's the New Jersey part?

00:42:54Guest:So when I was making the first movie and a short film before, a guy and I were working together and he lived in New Jersey.

00:43:04Guest:So we would go and spend some time up there.

00:43:07Marc:So it's worse than San Diego.

00:43:10Guest:Yeah.

00:43:10Guest:It got really bad there.

00:43:12Guest:Yeah.

00:43:12Marc:Yeah.

00:43:12Marc:Like you weren't, you were incapacitated, not doing anything.

00:43:15Guest:No, I mean, I was, you know, um, I was selling, I was selling things to, to, to make my habit, uh, you know, to keep, maintain a habit and, you know, it just got really dark, you know?

00:43:27Guest:Wow.

00:43:28Marc:Yeah.

00:43:28Marc:You're lucky to be a live guy.

00:43:29Guest:Yeah, absolutely.

00:43:31Marc:Well, it's interesting that you were able to, like, that somehow or another your talent or your desire to create won out.

00:43:41Marc:Absolutely.

00:43:41Marc:And that, you know, you're capable of it.

00:43:45Marc:I mean, like that doesn't always happen, but I have to assume that has something to do with the fact that you are capable of it.

00:43:51Marc:Because a lot of people have dreams of doing things that get lost in drugs, but there's no indication that they could have done them anyways.

00:43:57Marc:Right.

00:43:57Marc:So when did you know that you could?

00:44:00Marc:When did you start doing creative work?

00:44:02Guest:When I was like 14 or 15, I started painting.

00:44:07Guest:That was my first thing I did.

00:44:08Guest:Because your mom was a painter.

00:44:09Guest:Yeah.

00:44:09Guest:Yeah, yeah, and I got into it.

00:44:10Guest:Did you have a feel for it?

00:44:12Guest:Yeah, I was actually pretty good.

00:44:15Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:44:16Guest:I eventually did pretty well with it, but I took a painting over to this woman's house.

00:44:20Guest:She owned a salon.

00:44:21Guest:She said, how much?

00:44:22Guest:And as a joke, I said $800.

00:44:23Guest:Yeah.

00:44:23Guest:And she went in the back and gave me a check, and I was like, I'm just never going to work again in my life.

00:44:29Guest:What a wreck.

00:44:30Guest:Yeah, so once I got a little taste for that, it kind of stuck with me.

00:44:35Guest:But yeah, I mean,

00:44:36Guest:I don't know.

00:44:37Guest:I've never not.

00:44:38Guest:I've wanted to do what I'm doing for as long as I can remember.

00:44:42Marc:Where did you get the chops?

00:44:44Marc:I mean, when did you did you go to school for filmmaking?

00:44:46Guest:No, no.

00:44:47Guest:I mean, I've just you know, I've made a lot of mistakes.

00:44:50Guest:I mean, but how does it start?

00:44:51Guest:Uh, you know, I started writing, um, uh, what I thought was a script, but was more like a, you know, some terrible novel.

00:45:00Guest:Um, and this was when I was in, uh, you know, 14, 15.

00:45:04Guest:Yeah.

00:45:04Guest:And, um,

00:45:06Guest:You know, I kicked it around, tried to figure out how to make a movie, finally decided, okay, well, this movie all takes place in one day.

00:45:14Guest:What happens the day before?

00:45:15Guest:Yeah.

00:45:16Guest:And so it was like we decided we'd make a short film about the day before.

00:45:21Guest:Huh.

00:45:22Guest:And so that's what we did.

00:45:23Guest:And, you know, that got me a taste of, okay, this is how you make something on a smaller scale.

00:45:30Marc:But who'd you get in touch with?

00:45:31Marc:Were these just guys you were hanging out with?

00:45:32Marc:Yeah.

00:45:33Marc:What'd you shoot it on?

00:45:34Guest:We shot it on an Alexa.

00:45:36Guest:We got on Craigslist and met some people and put some people together.

00:45:41Guest:I met my wife.

00:45:42Guest:She was an actress.

00:45:44Guest:She auditioned for this and was in the short film.

00:45:47Guest:This is when you were in LA?

00:45:48Guest:No, this was on New Jersey.

00:45:49Guest:Oh, Jersey.

00:45:50Guest:Yeah.

00:45:50Guest:And we just put it together.

00:45:52Guest:And in three days, we shot a short.

00:45:54Guest:And I remember just the feeling I had of making something in the process of filmmaking.

00:45:59Guest:It was addicting to me.

00:46:01Marc:And did you enter it into things?

00:46:03No.

00:46:03Guest:Uh, yeah, I mean, it, it, you know, you can, you can, it actually ended up, it played like, uh, in Khan's, uh, short programming section, um, which, you know, um, didn't really do anything for me.

00:46:17Guest:But, uh, but what we did was, is we rented out theaters around the country and we got in a car and we drove around and we would paper the town and just try and get people to come in and see our short film.

00:46:27Guest:And, you know, how long was it?

00:46:29Guest:It's 20.

00:46:31Guest:I think it's 23 minutes.

00:46:32Guest:And that was the whole evening for those people.

00:46:33Guest:Pretty much.

00:46:35Guest:And, you know, some people showed up.

00:46:36Guest:Some people didn't.

00:46:37Guest:And either way, we'd tell them what we were trying to do.

00:46:39Guest:And finally, we went back to Tulsa and we had a screening and we packed the house and it played and people were really freaked out or disturbed.

00:46:49Guest:And then what was it about?

00:46:50Guest:It was about an abusive father who is kind of taking advantage of his daughter.

00:46:59Guest:Yeah.

00:47:00Guest:And she has a brother, and he's trying to get her out and get her to run away with him.

00:47:06Marc:So this is sort of like you broaden this theme and run with the hunting.

00:47:10Guest:Yeah, I worked this theme out.

00:47:11Guest:Yeah, I worked it out.

00:47:12Guest:And so the next morning, I got a call at about 6 a.m., and it was this guy that I'd known from a kid I knew, his dad.

00:47:22Guest:And he said, where are you, and can you meet me for coffee?

00:47:25Guest:Met him for coffee, and he said, I saw your film, and how much money do you want?

00:47:30Guest:And I told him, like, 200 grand.

00:47:32Guest:And he was like, great.

00:47:34Guest:to make your next movie yeah great let's make the the feature movie you want to make yeah and so you know we started started prepping it and that's you know what we did and uh i can make you a martyr let me make you a martyr now so what's that movie about since we can't find it anymore that movie is about the brother of this girl um he comes back from being uh out of town he's been gone oh i see so this is what you mean by the day before right so it's six years later and he comes back to town so you had this this other story planned

00:48:02Guest:Yeah, this feature I had written, you know, been writing for, you know, since I was 14 years old, yeah.

00:48:09Marc:Okay, so the short was sort of the pitch.

00:48:11Marc:Yeah, it was the pitch, exactly.

00:48:12Marc:Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:48:14Marc:And some guy took it just by coincidence?

00:48:17Marc:No, I mean, he's not a film guy, you know.

00:48:19Marc:But you invited him to the screening?

00:48:21Guest:Yeah, we just, you know, I mean, we had done, I think, 10 screenings, 10 cities.

00:48:24Marc:Uh-huh, looking for money.

00:48:26Marc:Looking for money.

00:48:27Marc:Okay.

00:48:27Marc:Looking to meet people.

00:48:28Marc:Okay, so you were inviting, you know, specific people.

00:48:31Guest:Yeah, I mean, at the end, it was just like anybody that will come and watch the fucking thing.

00:48:35Guest:And this guy showed up, and I'm extremely grateful for the opportunity.

00:48:39Marc:So what happens in that movie that we can't see?

00:48:43Guest:So he comes back to save his sister, to finally get her.

00:48:46Guest:He's ready.

00:48:47Guest:And it basically all takes place in one day of kind of him...

00:48:52Guest:coming back to his old life and having to reckon with all of these different problems that he left and messes.

00:48:59Guest:And the dad and him end up having, you know, kind of squaring off a little bit.

00:49:06Guest:You would think, yeah.

00:49:07Guest:Yeah.

00:49:08Guest:So the dad's involved in crime and stuff.

00:49:10Guest:Is that Marilyn Manson?

00:49:11Guest:Marilyn Manson is the hitman that the father hires to kill his son.

00:49:16Guest:oh yeah yeah um i haven't talked about this movie in a long time so i'm having a you're helping me uh formulate my pitch yeah yeah so who played the dad uh mark bone jr oh so he plays a heavy in that yeah yeah yeah he's great in that movie he's yeah he's one of those guys that i've been seeing around for years i can't even remember the first place i saw him

00:49:35Marc:But he's around.

00:49:36Marc:Like, he's always sort of around.

00:49:37Marc:I feel like, you know, I don't think I've met him, but I think I've seen him somewhere.

00:49:42Marc:He seems like a guy who's... Awesome guy, man.

00:49:44Guest:Yeah.

00:49:45Marc:He seems like he's got a past.

00:49:47Marc:He's a real guy.

00:49:47Guest:Yeah.

00:49:48Guest:He's one of those people you meet and he's like, you could sit and just have dinner with him and have a great time and wouldn't feel any... Yeah.

00:49:54Guest:You know, he's a real guy.

00:49:56Guest:Yeah.

00:49:57Guest:So...

00:49:57Marc:So that was that movie.

00:49:59Marc:Right.

00:50:00Marc:And what happened to it?

00:50:01Marc:You didn't get a distributor?

00:50:03Guest:No, we did.

00:50:04Guest:We did.

00:50:04Guest:We did a distribution deal.

00:50:05Guest:It got out there.

00:50:06Guest:It actually, you know, because of Manson, a lot of people saw it.

00:50:09Guest:You know, a lot more people than I think we anticipated seeing it saw it.

00:50:12Marc:And what was the feedback on that?

00:50:14Guest:It was, you know, amongst the horror and like kind of the cult folks, they loved the movie.

00:50:20Marc:So you would classify it a horror movie?

00:50:22Guest:No, I wouldn't.

00:50:24Guest:I would classify it as like a pulpy drama.

00:50:28Guest:Okay.

00:50:29Guest:Now, do you like the horror movies?

00:50:31Guest:You know, I do now.

00:50:34Guest:You didn't grow up with it then?

00:50:35Guest:No, I didn't.

00:50:35Guest:I've been kind of going back to when we did this horror movie recently-

00:50:41Guest:With Melissa.

00:50:42Guest:No, this one was not.

00:50:43Guest:That was, Ida Red was with Melissa.

00:50:45Guest:That's an action.

00:50:46Guest:That's not a horror movie.

00:50:46Guest:Yeah.

00:50:48Guest:Candyland's a horror movie.

00:50:49Guest:Candyland.

00:50:49Guest:Okay.

00:50:51Guest:And, you know, after Ida Red with Melissa, I started kind of binging on horror and got really fascinated with it and wanted to make a horror movie.

00:50:59Marc:What is it about it, you think?

00:51:01Marc:I think it's- Because I can't lock in.

00:51:03Guest:I find it.

00:51:03Guest:I find it, you know, when I grew up, I was like, it's campy.

00:51:06Guest:It's not scary.

00:51:07Guest:I don't.

00:51:08Marc:To me, it's frustrating, especially if it's a thriller.

00:51:10Marc:It's like, get on with it.

00:51:12Marc:Kill all of them.

00:51:12Marc:What are you going to do?

00:51:13Guest:I agree.

00:51:13Guest:And as a screenwriter, what attracted me was how liberating it is.

00:51:18Guest:Because all of these things you kind of get penalized for when writing a drama or a movie like a true crime or whatever you'd classify body brokers as, you're actually kind of rewarded for with horror.

00:51:30Guest:Like the campiness, like things being weird or not tying up.

00:51:34Guest:Or like there's kind of this freedom...

00:51:36Marc:Yeah, I get it.

00:51:37Marc:You know?

00:51:37Marc:Yeah, I get it.

00:51:38Marc:Like, because I don't have any muscle to appreciate it, because I know, like, what's his name?

00:51:44Marc:Rob Zombie, you know, does these sort of kind of like way over the top, pulpy, gross-out horror movies with some of the original kind of B-movie weirdos.

00:51:55Marc:Right.

00:51:56Marc:And it's sort of like a John Waters trip, but only with horror.

00:52:00Marc:Absolutely.

00:52:00Marc:Where, you know, I guess there is a camp...

00:52:04Marc:And I mean, like a campiness.

00:52:08Marc:And I think I just I can appreciate it, but I'm not sure I enjoy it.

00:52:12Guest:Yeah.

00:52:13Guest:I mean, it took me making, you know, four movies before it to appreciate the simplicity of it.

00:52:21Marc:So what do you want to do with it?

00:52:22Marc:What did you do with it that you hadn't done before in these other movies?

00:52:25Marc:Okay, so you get to a point, and we can talk about Body Brokers in a second, where these two movies that explore stories about drug abuse, incest, exploitation, death by one's own compulsion, that I guess that horror, after a certain point, is sort of like, I want to make a funny movie.

00:52:49Yeah.

00:52:50Guest:Pretty much.

00:52:51Guest:Absolutely.

00:52:52Marc:I can cover all those themes, but we can have a little more fun.

00:52:54Guest:Yeah, well, you know, so after we made the last one, Ida Red, my producer, Jeremy Rosen, and I kind of had a talk, and it was like, okay, what are we going to do now?

00:53:03Guest:Because I make all these movies with him, and we're partners in these things.

00:53:06Guest:And I said, I had this idea for a horror movie.

00:53:09Guest:It won't cost us a lot of money.

00:53:11Guest:And it would be much it would be a big departure from whatever I've tried to do.

00:53:17Guest:Yeah.

00:53:18Guest:And and so that was what was cool about it is it was kind of like going back down to square one with the amount of money we had.

00:53:25Guest:And, you know, we got all our friends in it and it's more of a slasher.

00:53:29Guest:John Waters.

00:53:30Guest:Yeah.

00:53:31Guest:Vibe than like a straight up, you know, just run of the mill horror movie.

00:53:36Guest:Right.

00:53:36Guest:So it's about truck stop hookers and cults and, you know.

00:53:41Guest:Yeah.

00:53:42Guest:You know, Tulsa.

00:53:42Guest:Tulsa.

00:53:43Guest:Exactly.

00:53:44Guest:So there was something really liberating about not having a lot of money and trying to tell people.

00:53:50Marc:Well, that was always the case with those movies, I think, generally speaking.

00:53:54Marc:Right, yeah.

00:53:56Marc:That's what developed that genre of B-horror movie.

00:53:59Guest:And honestly, like you said, make a comedy.

00:54:03Guest:This one's a comedy to me.

00:54:04Guest:I think people are going to find it extremely disturbing, my humor.

00:54:08Guest:But it's...

00:54:09Guest:It's really, really, I'm proud of it.

00:54:11Guest:I get it.

00:54:11Marc:I mean, I don't know that I would have thought about it like that until I just had this conversation with you.

00:54:16Marc:Like, I always knew that there was a campiness to horror, but the ridiculousness of some horror.

00:54:22Marc:Right.

00:54:24Marc:You know, just the amount of blood.

00:54:25Marc:Right.

00:54:26Guest:Sure.

00:54:26Marc:Right.

00:54:27Marc:Right.

00:54:28Marc:I think it serves the same purpose to a certain type of person as comedy.

00:54:33Marc:Right.

00:54:34Marc:Right.

00:54:34Marc:Sure.

00:54:35Marc:Definitely.

00:54:35Marc:Yeah.

00:54:36Marc:Yeah.

00:54:36Marc:Now, with the body brokers, like once you realize that, and I think I talked to Melissa Leo about this, about like, well, it's about the scams that people who owned rehab centers, the business built around Obamacare money that was afforded any recovery program that would establish itself as a recovery program.

00:55:03Marc:And the guys that ran them were usually funneling money through junkies, through testing, through turning junkies back out to get them back in so they could get the money.

00:55:19Marc:There were several different layers of scam that basically took advantage of the hopeless drug addict.

00:55:26Marc:So I was just curious in the making of the movie...

00:55:31Marc:What was the decision-making process?

00:55:36Marc:Was there a conversation around whether to have the narrator or not?

00:55:40Guest:There never was.

00:55:43Guest:It was always there.

00:55:45Guest:It was always there, and that was the toughest part of the movie for me is, again, this is a huge, sprawling thing.

00:55:52Guest:How do you get all those scams into one movie about one guy?

00:55:56Guest:Exactly, because before I sat down to write it, I thought about it.

00:56:00Guest:Okay, without the narrator, what is this?

00:56:03Guest:I don't think it...

00:56:04Marc:really dips its toe in even you know i mean you can you could just oh i see you needed the explanation yeah you need to kind of provide all of the uh color commentary and fill in you know the gaps of like how big this actually is right so so you've got this sort of like um chipper satan right talking about the golden age of being able to uh game the system sure at the expense of junkies lives right right okay yeah right so that's a tone

00:56:30Guest:Yeah, it's a tone.

00:56:31Guest:And, uh, you know, I didn't know how else to tell the story without like having, you know, being able to provide all the facts along the way.

00:56:39Guest:Right.

00:56:39Guest:Cause you wanted to cover all of them.

00:56:41Guest:Right.

00:56:41Guest:And I couldn't even cover all of them because we only have, you know, two hours.

00:56:45Marc:So when, but when did you get hip to that?

00:56:48Marc:Like what, why did that become a thing for you when you were in rehab?

00:56:51Marc:Did you realize it?

00:56:52Marc:Did you hear about it?

00:56:53Marc:Did you know what was going on?

00:56:54Marc:Were you being used in that way?

00:56:57Guest:All of the above.

00:56:58Guest:Yeah.

00:56:59Guest:So, I mean, you know, for me, it didn't take me long when I went to rehab to realize that it wasn't, they didn't have the best intentions for me, you know?

00:57:10Guest:Really?

00:57:11Guest:Yeah.

00:57:11Guest:I mean, you know, a lot of these places have, you know, private funding or run by hedge funds.

00:57:17Guest:And I feel like, you know, hedge funds and people's health and well-being are...

00:57:22Guest:If they're not at odds initially, they eventually will be.

00:57:27Guest:The bigger these places grow and the more money that's at stake, the more corners you cut.

00:57:32Marc:Cutting corners, but the whole part about relapsing or bringing relapsers in on purpose to run money through them.

00:57:40Marc:I didn't know about that, but I got a buddy who I bounced it off of because he works in that business and he was like, oh yeah, all of it.

00:57:48Marc:I think he knew the guy that you based it on.

00:57:51Marc:Maybe.

00:57:52Guest:Maybe.

00:57:52Guest:I mean, there's a few of them.

00:57:53Guest:He might know one of them.

00:57:55Guest:Out here.

00:57:55Guest:Yeah.

00:57:56Guest:So, you know, the first time I really got hip to it, I was in New Jersey.

00:58:02Guest:Yeah.

00:58:02Guest:I was kicking dope, and I was really fucked up and in a bad place.

00:58:09Guest:And, you know, I Googled on my phone, like, drug treatment centers or whatever.

00:58:13Guest:Yeah.

00:58:14Guest:And I didn't even click on anything, but somehow they just get your number and they start calling you.

00:58:18Guest:Oh, wow.

00:58:19Guest:And so, you know, I kicked for like three or four days.

00:58:21Guest:This guy called me and he said, hey, you know, would you like to come to treatment?

00:58:26Guest:You know, and I was like, yeah, I mean, I guess.

00:58:27Guest:Sure.

00:58:28Marc:And this is like the Michael K. Williams character.

00:58:29Guest:this is like the guy in the in the call center oh the call center guy so he calls me and he's like you know and i'm like i don't know if i'm i'm ready yet whatever calls me back again the next day yeah keeps calling me yeah and eventually he uh i'm like you know fuck it i don't have any money i can't get any more dope yeah i'm i'm ready to go and um so the next time he calls i'm like hey i'm ready and he's like all right well how long have you been clean

00:58:53Guest:Or off drugs.

00:58:54Guest:And I said about five, six days.

00:58:56Guest:And he's like, okay, well, you can't show up and piss dirty or piss clean.

00:59:00Guest:If you piss clean, we can't take you.

00:59:01Guest:Yeah.

00:59:02Guest:I was like, all right, well, that's a problem.

00:59:03Guest:Yeah.

00:59:04Guest:And he was like, no, it's not.

00:59:05Guest:Just go to the Western Union.

00:59:07Guest:I'm going to send you some money for the cab to the airport.

00:59:09Guest:How much is it?

00:59:09Guest:I was like, it's like 60 bucks.

00:59:10Guest:Yeah.

00:59:10Guest:I was like, okay.

00:59:11Guest:He's like, go now.

00:59:12Guest:And I'm going to buy your plane ticket.

00:59:14Guest:Yeah.

00:59:14Guest:So I go to the Western Union.

00:59:15Guest:There's a thousand bucks in the Western Union.

00:59:17Guest:And, uh, and so, you know, a thousand bucks, a thousand bucks.

00:59:21Guest:So I call him and he's like, yeah, you know, just get to the airport and make sure when you show up, you, you, you, you know, test positive for.

00:59:29Guest:Right.

00:59:29Guest:And I'm like, oh, okay.

00:59:31Marc:So he said, use the money to get high.

00:59:33Marc:Absolutely.

00:59:33Marc:And then get on the plane and then get on the plane.

00:59:35Guest:He didn't say that, but that's what he was saying.

00:59:37Guest:So I called a cab.

00:59:39Guest:The cabbie took me all around town.

00:59:40Guest:I got everything, saw everybody.

00:59:41Guest:Yeah.

00:59:42Guest:And then he drove me to the airport, and I'm just slamming dope in the back of the cab the whole way.

00:59:47Guest:I get on the plane.

00:59:49Guest:I fly down to Florida.

00:59:50Guest:There's a guy waiting for me in a car.

00:59:51Guest:Yeah.

00:59:52Guest:I get in the car, and he's like, hey, so do you have anything on you?

00:59:55Guest:And I'm like-

00:59:56Guest:what do you mean he's like this isn't a trick question i just need to know and i was like yeah yeah i do he's like all right we'll pull off so we pull off at this little you know quick stop or whatever and he's like you want a 40 like and i was like yeah sure so he grabbed me a beer and i just sat in the back of his car and you know was slamming dope and drinking a beer and drinking a beer and then he took me in and dropped me off and so that was like

01:00:17Guest:Like a blatant example of how corrupt these places had gotten.

01:00:21Marc:So for that thousand bucks of investment, he was able to run taxpayer money through you into the system that he was working for in the number like $35,000, $40,000 more.

01:00:33Marc:Yeah, probably more.

01:00:34Marc:Right.

01:00:35Guest:Yeah.

01:00:35Marc:Wow.

01:00:36Marc:Yeah.

01:00:36Marc:And you knew.

01:00:37Marc:So how could you not know there's some sort of scam to it?

01:00:40Guest:So then to make matters worse, I'm there.

01:00:42Guest:It's a terrible place.

01:00:43Guest:It's a really dirty, you know, in Florida.

01:00:46Guest:Yeah, it was it was a really rough place.

01:00:48Guest:And and I called a buddy out here in Los Angeles.

01:00:52Guest:I said, you got to get me out of here.

01:00:53Guest:You got to get me out of here.

01:00:54Guest:And he's like, and I knew he worked in treatment.

01:00:56Guest:And he was like, well, I can give you a guy's number who can.

01:00:59Guest:So I talked to this guy and he's like, yeah, we can get you out here.

01:01:01Guest:You know, once you complete the 30 days, we'll fly you out here and you can stay in our place.

01:01:06Guest:I'm like, okay.

01:01:06Guest:And he's like, do you have anybody out there that would want to come with you?

01:01:09Guest:And I'm like, what do you mean?

01:01:11Guest:And he's like, I'll pay you $1,000 per person you bring from that treatment center to mine.

01:01:17Guest:Really?

01:01:18Guest:Yeah, really.

01:01:19Guest:So, you know, I got to hop in my step now because I'm like, you know, I go back into the cafeteria and I'm like, hey, man, you want to go to L.A.?

01:01:25Guest:You ever been to L.A.?

01:01:26Guest:You know, like, you're a funny guy.

01:01:27Guest:You could be a comedian.

01:01:28Guest:You want to go to L.A.?

01:01:29Guest:I'll introduce you to everybody.

01:01:31Guest:You know, and so I got about six people to go with me.

01:01:34Guest:Really?

01:01:35Guest:Yeah.

01:01:35Guest:On the same plane?

01:01:36Guest:No.

01:01:36Guest:So I flew ahead and then the next week, once they completed their time there, they went too.

01:01:41Guest:And I didn't know that this was wrong.

01:01:43Guest:I just figured like, oh, we're all going to Los Angeles together.

01:01:46Guest:And you make $6,000.

01:01:47Guest:Exactly.

01:01:48Guest:It's like the best of both worlds.

01:01:49Guest:So I did that.

01:01:50Guest:And once I got there...

01:01:52Guest:um it out to out here and and they showed up and i kind of started to realize that this was like a real thing that was going on because you know one of the scams yeah one of the scams yeah and um you know i ended up going back out with my six thousand dollars and getting high and you know taking myself on a little yeah you know a tour and then um

01:02:12Guest:I got sober later, but, you know, after that, I had been sober for about three years, and I came out here to visit my wife when she was working, and I talked to one of my buddies who ran a treatment center, and he was like, you've got to sit down with me and hear how crazy this has gotten.

01:02:29Guest:And I was like, I have no interest in getting back into that, you know.

01:02:32Guest:I'd really done a good job in running a clean program.

01:02:35Guest:I didn't want to be around anybody who was involved in it.

01:02:37Guest:And I ended up going and meeting with him eventually, went to a meeting, and then afterwards we sat and talked and he broke it down for me.

01:02:43Guest:And he called some people and had them come over and tell me what was going on.

01:02:46Guest:And I couldn't believe it, the amount of money and how this thing had kind of mushroomed into this real cottage industry.

01:02:51Marc:What was the doctor scam again?

01:02:53Guest:So the doctor scam is, um, you know, they will basically, you know, so if you're an opiate addict, uh, or alcohol, um, you can get a chip, like an implant put in you, um, which will block the receptors to your brain for, for, you know, dopamine or whatever, uh, or, uh, you know, uh, opiates.

01:03:09Guest:And, um,

01:03:10Guest:and um so what they would do is is anybody you know they would take anybody yeah they'd go on the street and just pick up people you know homeless people and say hey we'll give you 300 bucks you want to come in you get this thing put in yeah yeah and then you know a week later we'll take it out of you and we'll pay uh you know give you 400 bucks all so they got the money for the surgery which is at a cap right and they would just use these people pay them out and still make a profit because they're making you know twenty thousand dollars of surgery right right um so wow

01:03:36Guest:So that was the whole thing.

01:03:38Marc:And these are all desperate, sick people.

01:03:40Marc:Oh, yeah.

01:03:41Marc:So they're easy marks.

01:03:42Marc:Easy.

01:03:42Marc:Because they don't give a shit.

01:03:43Guest:Easy.

01:03:44Guest:I wish somebody had asked me back then to do it, you know?

01:03:46Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:03:46Guest:Because I would have done it.

01:03:47Guest:I would have been like, oh, you know.

01:03:49Marc:And now, so this is what your movie, that you're trying to encompass all of this through this kind of, you know, through the series of characters.

01:03:58Marc:Like the Michael K. Williams character in that movie.

01:04:01Marc:Obviously not as demonic as the main guy.

01:04:05Marc:Sure.

01:04:06Marc:Played by that guy.

01:04:07Marc:What's his name?

01:04:08Marc:Grillo?

01:04:08Guest:Frank Grillo.

01:04:09Marc:Frank Grillo.

01:04:09Marc:Yeah.

01:04:10Marc:He seems like a real guy.

01:04:12Marc:He seems like one of the guys out here.

01:04:13Marc:Frank's amazing.

01:04:15Guest:Yeah.

01:04:15Marc:Yeah.

01:04:16Marc:But he's the real Satan.

01:04:18Marc:Yep.

01:04:18Marc:Right?

01:04:19Marc:And Michael K. Williams is just a dude who's making a personal compromise, knows what's up, and he's working the system to make his own money.

01:04:27Marc:He's a contractor for the devil.

01:04:29Marc:Right.

01:04:29Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:04:31Marc:And then, like, the poor kid, Val Kilmer's kid, is that who it is?

01:04:35Marc:Yeah.

01:04:35Marc:He's a good actor.

01:04:36Marc:Yeah, he's great.

01:04:37Marc:He's great.

01:04:37Marc:Yeah, he gets sucked into it.

01:04:39Marc:Yep.

01:04:39Marc:But, like, I thought that the way he played it, which was, like, almost void of any real character or personality, in a way.

01:04:48Marc:Right.

01:04:48Marc:Just, like, a naif, kind of.

01:04:52Marc:Right?

01:04:52Guest:Yeah.

01:04:53Guest:Yeah.

01:04:54Guest:And that was intentional in casting.

01:04:56Guest:No, no, I know, yeah.

01:04:57Marc:Because he's kind of, yeah, yeah.

01:04:59Marc:Yeah, and the girl was a little monster.

01:05:00Marc:Yeah.

01:05:01Marc:But again, in how you characterize your own experience and then the end of that movie, it can't really end in any other way, but it's pretty raw, man, right?

01:05:16Marc:I think so.

01:05:17Marc:I hope so.

01:05:17Marc:Yeah.

01:05:17Marc:What do you mean?

01:05:19Marc:How is that not going to be wrong?

01:05:20Marc:Well, you know.

01:05:21Marc:With the guy splitting.

01:05:22Marc:That's the one thing that people don't realize is just like, you know, anytime.

01:05:25Marc:I don't want to ruin the ending.

01:05:27Marc:But, you know, when that shit goes down, there's usually more than one person in the room or in the car.

01:05:31Guest:Absolutely.

01:05:32Marc:There's always somebody.

01:05:33Guest:There's always somebody there.

01:05:34Marc:That's right.

01:05:34Guest:Yeah.

01:05:35Marc:That's right.

01:05:36Marc:Take the dope.

01:05:37Marc:No, I've been that guy.

01:05:38Guest:Oh, man.

01:05:39Guest:Yeah, it's rough, man.

01:05:41Marc:That kind of decision, like moving a body outside.

01:05:45Guest:It's something that if you're going to choose to do that for- If that's your life.

01:05:50Guest:If that's your life and for a period of time it was mine, you're going to run into that kind of stuff.

01:05:55Guest:People are going to go down.

01:05:56Guest:Especially with fentanyl out there now.

01:05:57Guest:Oh, my God.

01:05:58Marc:You were there at the beginning of it.

01:06:00Guest:At the beginning.

01:06:01Guest:I remember the first time I saw somebody go on fentanyl.

01:06:03Guest:And it was one of the most disturbing things I've ever seen.

01:06:06Guest:What happened?

01:06:09Guest:They don't know it.

01:06:11Guest:Well, I've seen people, unfortunately, move on when they're shooting regular dope.

01:06:18Guest:But with fentanyl, it...

01:06:20Guest:It was like a demon was leaving this person's body.

01:06:23Guest:He turned into a contortionist and started twisting and writhing, and it was like he was trying to fight for whatever was left in him to stay.

01:06:33Guest:And he clenched up, and then he just went limp and fell out of a chair.

01:06:38Guest:Did he know that was what it was?

01:06:40Marc:Neither of us knew.

01:06:41Marc:So it was just in there?

01:06:42Marc:It was just in there.

01:06:44Marc:Oh, my God.

01:06:45Marc:And that's where you maybe thought for a second, yeah, maybe I'm not going to take that hit.

01:06:50Guest:No, I mean, honestly, you know, the sickest part about it is it must be some really good dope.

01:06:53Guest:Right.

01:06:54Guest:Well, that's always the case.

01:06:55Marc:Yeah.

01:06:55Marc:He did too much or he didn't do it right.

01:06:57Guest:Right.

01:06:57Marc:Yeah.

01:06:58Marc:If I just half it up.

01:06:59Marc:I mean, that's, you know.

01:07:00Marc:Well, yeah, that was always the thing in New York.

01:07:01Marc:I remember realizing that.

01:07:03Guest:Yeah.

01:07:03Marc:Anytime there was like when it was all the China white in the late 80s.

01:07:09Marc:That when it was around, if people started dropping dead, all the other junkies are like, where are they getting it?

01:07:13Guest:Well, that's true.

01:07:14Guest:And there was a joke in New Jersey when I was there where junkies would watch the evening news.

01:07:18Guest:Because it would say, today in whatever county or town- Four overdoses?

01:07:22Guest:Yeah, four overdoses.

01:07:23Guest:And then the next morning, everybody would be there for the morning shift to pick up.

01:07:27Guest:That is crazy.

01:07:29Guest:So it's free advertising.

01:07:31Marc:So you were really in the shit and saw that stuff and kind of-

01:07:35Marc:It must have, like, whatever you had to process once you, like, got hold of sobriety must have been heavy.

01:07:41Marc:Yeah, I think so, but... Were they close friends, any of them, or just people that you knew in the life?

01:07:46Guest:I've known a few close friends, but the people I saw were not, you know, they were just, you know, running buddies that I, you know... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:07:54Guest:Yeah.

01:07:55Marc:People you saw at the place where you didn't think.

01:07:57Guest:Yeah, or, you know, that guy, you know, he and I ran around for, like, three weeks together.

01:08:01Guest:Right, right.

01:08:01Guest:And then that happened, you know?

01:08:03Guest:Wow, man.

01:08:04Guest:So did you ever meet Larry Clark?

01:08:05Guest:No, I never did.

01:08:07Guest:He's still alive.

01:08:08Guest:It seems like you got to meet him.

01:08:09Marc:I talked to him.

01:08:10Guest:I listened to that.

01:08:11Guest:Yeah.

01:08:12Marc:It was hard to wrangle that one, but I think I did.

01:08:17Guest:I was there with you.

01:08:20Guest:I was very excited for that one.

01:08:21Guest:It was a tough one to keep in bounds, but I'm a huge fan, man.

01:08:26Marc:I'd love to... It's so interesting, guys like that who have the... There's so much hustle to them.

01:08:31Marc:Yeah.

01:08:32Marc:So you got the real story, then you got the hustle, and then you got...

01:08:36Guest:the hustle that they're pulling on you right right you know like well he's a pro man i mean that's like you know yeah he's the real deal you know uh this life that we're talking about and you know and he's been around a long time i was actually the other day looking uh there was a few photos of from tulsa for sale and i was you know oh yeah i mean he must have done editions of that yeah yeah i think i've got a reprint of the book

01:08:57Guest:yeah i just bought a first edition you did yeah but you know i wanted to buy my buddy has one of the original prints and uh and i want one uh how much they go for like 20 20 yeah which seems reasonable to me sure you know um yeah and so i was really thinking about it i don't know i gotta get it you know a good paying gig and i'll buy it for myself but yeah man you gotta you gotta go meet larry too

01:09:21Guest:Yeah, I don't know where he's, I think he's in like Europe or something.

01:09:23Guest:Is he?

01:09:24Guest:I have no idea.

01:09:24Marc:Those guys are like, you know, they're always taken care of by a strange contingent of money, you know, and weirdness.

01:09:34Marc:You know, they're like always like, you know, I don't know how they get around the world.

01:09:38Marc:It's like Bukowski, you know, it's always carrying Bukowski.

01:09:41Guest:It's true.

01:09:42Guest:You know?

01:09:42Guest:Yeah.

01:09:43Marc:Like in Europe, he'd go to Europe and they'd be celebrated.

01:09:45Marc:Right.

01:09:46Guest:Yeah.

01:09:46Guest:Right.

01:09:47Guest:Here, I don't know.

01:09:48Guest:Same with like Abel Ferrara.

01:09:49Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:09:50Guest:Oh, really?

01:09:50Guest:Yeah.

01:09:51Guest:Yeah, he's over in Rome right now.

01:09:53Guest:They have these patrons, it seems like.

01:09:56Marc:Yeah, someone takes it.

01:09:57Marc:I wonder if they're institutions or they're individuals or how it works, you know?

01:10:01Marc:Man, I wish I knew.

01:10:02Marc:Yeah.

01:10:03Marc:Well, he might be one of those guys.

01:10:07Marc:Keep at it.

01:10:08Marc:You'll find out.

01:10:08Marc:Just like you found out about the drug scares.

01:10:11Marc:You'll find out about how one lives in Europe for a year and someone else has died making a slasher movie.

01:10:19Marc:That's what you're working towards.

01:10:20Marc:Big payoff, man.

01:10:21Guest:Yeah, things to work towards, yeah.

01:10:24Marc:So what happens now with... Because I certainly put that movie out there a bit, but you have any sense of...

01:10:33Marc:So it's on HBO now, though, right?

01:10:36Marc:It's going to be in rotation.

01:10:38Guest:Yeah, it'll be, you know, I don't really know what they're going to do with it, but I know that's where it's going.

01:10:43Marc:Now, how did that deal work?

01:10:45Marc:Like, when did that happen?

01:10:47Marc:It happened.

01:10:48Marc:What's the process as a filmmaker?

01:10:50Marc:So you make the movie.

01:10:50Marc:Who gave you the money for that movie?

01:10:52Guest:That was kind of a hodgepodge of private equity.

01:10:55Guest:A few companies chipped in.

01:10:56Guest:It was a really hard movie to get the money for.

01:10:59Guest:Yeah.

01:10:59Marc:Now, when you say you have experience with people having problems with endings, is that one of those things where when you're looking for money, do you show people that script?

01:11:09Guest:Yeah, I did.

01:11:10Guest:I did.

01:11:10Guest:And nobody had a problem with that because anybody I pitched on the script, I could tell...

01:11:16Guest:this is my story right they couldn't believe the whole thing you know right then you get to the end it's like well i guess that's how it's supposed to end but really the people that had problems with it which was ironic were the film festivals um you know because we were actually going to do festivals yeah you know uh before the pandemic hit but the festivals that we you know were talking to were like yeah but it's just so dark at the end

01:11:39Marc:It's like, what kind of festival are you running?

01:11:42Marc:Is it a film festival?

01:11:43Guest:Right.

01:11:44Guest:And so it was ironic because most of those people have never made a movie themselves.

01:11:49Marc:But it's so weird because that, to me, says that some of these festivals, I don't know which ones you're talking to, are so dug in in terms of who they attract.

01:11:58Marc:Absolutely.

01:11:58Marc:That they're playing to a certain audience.

01:12:00Marc:Right.

01:12:02Marc:Interesting.

01:12:03Marc:Yeah.

01:12:04Marc:Yeah.

01:12:04Marc:Like it's a sort of a middle class artsy fartsy audience.

01:12:08Guest:Absolutely.

01:12:09Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:12:10Marc:That doesn't, they're just trying to keep their support as opposed to.

01:12:16Guest:Right, well, most of them, or at least the American ones, have such heavy corporate influence that kind of shrouded in independence.

01:12:27Marc:One of our big donors is a drug rehab here in town, so we can't really.

01:12:34Marc:They were a little concerned about your film because we're getting a lot of money from Hazleton.

01:12:39Marc:And I'm not saying anything bad about Hazleton.

01:12:45Marc:It was the only one that came to my head.

01:12:46Marc:Been around a long time.

01:12:48Marc:I'm sure they're on the level.

01:12:49Guest:Yeah.

01:12:50Marc:From everything I've heard, they are.

01:12:51Marc:They are, yeah.

01:12:52Marc:They're the old-timey ones.

01:12:54Marc:Okay, so you make the movie, you pick up a distributor for a bit, and then how does HBO get involved?

01:12:59Guest:So typically with a movie like this size, a lot of distributors will want to have a TV partner.

01:13:04Guest:So what that means is the distributor will put it out for three to six months on Amazon, Apple TV, all that for rent or buy.

01:13:14Guest:Right.

01:13:14Guest:And then six months later, they'll partner with a TV person like HBO Max or a streamer to then lease it for a period of like 18 months or so.

01:13:24Guest:Okay.

01:13:24Guest:All right.

01:13:25Guest:Yeah.

01:13:25Guest:So this is your time.

01:13:27Guest:I guess.

01:13:27Guest:On HBO Max.

01:13:28Marc:Yeah, yeah.

01:13:28Marc:This will be my time.

01:13:29Marc:Now, has you found that after that one, I guess it wasn't really out when you started doing Ida Red.

01:13:35Marc:How did you finance that?

01:13:36Marc:Same way?

01:13:37Guest:No, Ida Red, we had two...

01:13:40Guest:you know uh reputable well-known companies kind of come in and and you know wrap their arms because of your work i guess uh also also the cast you know they really like the cast and um and the story i mean it's kind of a like i said it's kind of a throwback homage to you know peckinpah kind of stuff and that stuff usually does well people like it yeah yeah

01:14:01Guest:And what about Candyland?

01:14:05Guest:Candyland was financed by two people, and Jeremy is one of the main people who put up the money for that because he believes in it so much.

01:14:15Guest:That's your manager?

01:14:16Guest:Yeah, manager and producer, yeah.

01:14:17Guest:The guy who's in my house right now?

01:14:18Guest:Yeah, the guy who's in the house, yeah.

01:14:19Guest:He's a fucking killer, man.

01:14:21Guest:Great dude.

01:14:22Marc:Well, I wish you best of luck with everything.

01:14:24Guest:It's great talking to you.

01:14:25Guest:I appreciate it, man.

01:14:25Guest:Thank you so much.

01:14:26Marc:I think we covered it.

01:14:27Marc:Hopefully, yeah.

01:14:29Marc:Oh, yeah.

01:14:30Marc:No, we got a guy dying on fentanyl.

01:14:32Marc:I mean, that's... We dug in, and that's what we found.

01:14:37Guest:Well, dude, thank you so much.

01:14:39Guest:And you played a big part in my recovery.

01:14:41Guest:Oh.

01:14:42Guest:Yeah.

01:14:42Guest:I mean, early on, attraction, not promotion, but I would listen to your show.

01:14:46Guest:And I remember laying in...

01:14:49Guest:a detox bed listening to one of the shows and you mentioned to the guy, you're a sober guy, right?

01:14:53Guest:Yeah.

01:14:54Guest:Me too.

01:14:54Guest:And you guys went on this whole thing and it actually really, it helped, you know, because, you know, it may be stupid or whatever, but people like yourself out here doing...

01:15:05Guest:you know what i wanted to do right um you know doing trying you know doing this thing being sober uh it it provided you know some uh you knew it was possible yeah yeah and it was it really it really you know it helped me so being here means a lot and i appreciate you helping out our film we we need it and yeah well it means a lot to me too man because like you know kicking the life that you kicked is that that's it's a really hard one and you seem good and you know just you know stay on it and do what i can yeah yeah you look great man yeah i appreciate it thank you

01:15:35Marc:Man, heavy tails.

01:15:42Marc:That dope is no good, man.

01:15:43Marc:Hard to come back from the dope, but it's doable.

01:15:46Marc:John's movie, Body Brokers, is now available to buy or rent on digital and on-demand platforms, or you can watch it on Cinemax starting tomorrow, July 9th.

01:15:56Marc:The new film, Ida Red, begins playing on the festival circuit in August.

01:15:59Marc:Now let's play some music and get on with it.

01:16:03Marc:Get on with it.

01:16:04Marc:Get on with it.

01:16:30guitar solo

01:17:00Marc:Boomer lives.

01:17:08Marc:Monkey and La Fonda and Cat Angels.

01:17:11Marc:Cat Angels, man.

01:17:12Marc:Cat Angels everywhere.

01:17:14Marc:Oh, they're coming down fast.