Episode 1240 - Steven Soderbergh
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucksters what's happening how you doing are you holding up in the heat where are you it's it's fucking over man we are watching the planet die
Marc:It's dying.
Marc:And I guess some of you have better seats than others currently, but we will all be the bleacher seats are going to be fine come the next few years.
Marc:Doesn't matter where you're sitting.
Marc:You're going to see the show.
Marc:You know what I'm saying?
Marc:But I hope you're holding up.
Marc:I hope you're making do.
Marc:I hope you're keeping cool.
Marc:I hope you're not stroking out.
Marc:Take it easy, man.
Marc:Slow it down.
Marc:Get into a child's mind and a lizard heart.
Marc:Just, you know, kind of get in the shade and turn it down.
Marc:Slow down that metabolism.
Marc:Take it in.
Marc:It's dark, but it's light.
Marc:You know what I'm saying?
Marc:It's hot, but it's cold reality.
Marc:Today on the show, I talked to Steven Soderbergh, the director.
Marc:going all the way back to Sex, Lies, and Videotape, Oceans 11, 12, and 13, Traffic, Contagion, the list goes on.
Marc:I'm a huge fan of Traffic, but I'm a bigger fan of Behind the Candelabra, the Liberace movie he did, I think, for HBO.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Fucking Michael Douglas just...
Marc:Gives into it, man.
Marc:Who are you talking to, Mumbles?
Marc:I love that movie.
Marc:I love it.
Marc:I love it.
Marc:It's interesting about him because in comparison to Tarantino, who draws...
Marc:From every type of movie ever and just kind of mashes it up, mashes it together in his sort of montage collage of a thousand styles and shots and homages.
Marc:And Soderbergh actually is quite different.
Marc:He he actually locks into a style or tone for an entire film.
Marc:and he holds it but he doesn't stay the same i mean they're all he's always challenging himself i think with technology and also with just tone and style and i watched the new film no sudden move which is a straight up noir uh with don cheadle and benicio del toro and it's a it's a multi-layered fairly complex noir and uh and it's tonally tight
Marc:Very specific and different than his other movies.
Marc:He definitely takes chances, and he is a masterful director, and I'm glad we got to talk.
Marc:We did do it over Zoom because that was the way it was set up initially.
Marc:So that's going to happen.
Marc:It was exciting to talk to him.
Marc:I was a little intimidated.
Marc:I was more intimidated by Soderbergh than I was Tarantino because Soderbergh seems like kind of a serious guy, straight shooter, just a little...
Marc:you know, heady dude, but it worked out fine.
Marc:I want to give a little love, send a little juice to this thing that's going on.
Marc:It's a tribute.
Marc:Now, I don't know how many of you know Barry Crimmins.
Marc:He's a great comic.
Marc:We had him on the show a couple of times, and he used to work with me and Brendan over at Air America.
Marc:It was actually his interview on this show that inspired Bobcat Goldthwait to do the documentary about Barry, Mr. Lucky.
Marc:But he was also the founder of the influential Boston-area comedy club, The Ding Ho, which you might have heard me talk about with lots of comics, especially the Boston guys.
Marc:Well, Jimmy Tingle is one of those guys.
Marc:And Jimmy helped organize a 40th anniversary celebration of The Ding Ho that you can watch this weekend.
Marc:as part of a fundraiser.
Marc:Jimmy is joined by Stephen Wright, Paula Poundstone, Bobcat Goldthwait, Dennis Leary, Lenny Clark, Don Gavin, Jack Gallagher, Tony V, Kenny Rogerson, and just a ton more comics, so many more comics to laugh and celebrate both Barry and the ding-ho.
Marc:You can watch it by making a donation to support Barry's wife, Helen.
Marc:When Barry died in 2018, his wife, Helen, was in the middle of her fight with stage four non-Hodgkin lymphoma.
Marc:The fundraiser helps with her medical and living expenses.
Marc:The tribute is airing July 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.
Marc:That's tonight, tomorrow, and Saturday.
Marc:Go to jimmytingle.com for tickets.
Marc:The ding-ho.
Marc:The ding-ho.
Marc:I remember going there when I was in college, when I first started doing comedy back in the mid-'80s.
Marc:It was probably the last...
Marc:The last summer, the Ding Ho was open, but I was able to get on that stage.
Marc:It was back when Tingle, a lot of harmonica in Tingle's act.
Marc:I remember Ron Lynch was in a team called Bob and Ron.
Marc:Lenny Clark used to host the open mic where he would do 45 minutes between acts.
Marc:Mark Clark was a door guy, and it was connected to the Chinese restaurant, which I never ate at.
Marc:The only thing I remember about performing at the Ding Ho was one time I was about to go on and I spilled a drink on my pants.
Marc:It looked like I pissed myself and I had to go on like that.
Marc:I had to work with it.
Marc:I had to work with it.
Marc:I don't remember having a good set.
Marc:I can remember what the inside of the club looked like.
Marc:I can remember what it felt like to be on stage there.
Marc:But I don't remember anything about performing there.
Marc:But I remember it.
Marc:I remember being there and I remember sitting at the bar with Ron Lynch and his partner Bob after I came out of the bathroom or after I had just spilled a drink on myself.
Marc:And I went to the bathroom to try to dry it and to no avail.
Marc:And I was just starting out.
Marc:And it was another traumatic experience.
Marc:I've really been thinking about this lately a lot.
Marc:Just the PTSD necessary to sort of continue pursuing comedy.
Marc:Like I was thinking back at some of the gigs that we were doing, like because people when the store reopened, the comedy store, people were like, oh, there's nobody here.
Marc:I'm like, so what?
Marc:Don't you remember doing this?
Marc:I mean, when people say at the beginning, now it's packed, but the first couple of weeks it was small audiences.
Marc:They were distanced.
Marc:They couldn't only let certain amount of people in and people were complaining.
Marc:I'm like, are you fucking out of your mind?
Marc:Just get your work done for fuck's sake.
Marc:I mean, do people forget?
Marc:I've done shows for two people, four people, eight people, nine people, 12 people, 15 people spread out.
Marc:I've driven 200 miles to perform for seven people.
Marc:I've done in shows in bars and discos and bowling alleys and fucking veterans halls.
Marc:I've done shows.
Marc:I mean, I don't even know.
Marc:How I did it, I was an angry, neurotic, furious Jewish kid in my early 20s, just roaming all over the New England countryside to walk into situations I had fucking no idea what I was getting into, to go up cold and do a half hour before 45 minutes.
Marc:I don't know how I did it.
Marc:Just thinking about it now makes me embarrassed and uncomfortable and fucking sad as fuck for that guy.
Marc:I don't know who that kid was, but I do know that I locked in somehow.
Marc:I kept going.
Marc:I had shattered my sense of rejection to the point where somehow or another I managed it, but I still feel it.
Marc:the sensitivity, the terror.
Marc:Not when I do a theater, not even when I go on to store or whatever, but like somebody asked me, I think Lance over at Permanent Records, he's like, do you want to do a show at the record store?
Marc:And...
Marc:Man, the thought of walking into a record store and doing just a gig on a small stage or whatever, just a gig in a room that's not a stand-up room or a theater, not a legit place, I'm like, I can't handle it, man.
Marc:I don't want the stress of that.
Marc:I like the parameters defined.
Marc:I can't do it.
Marc:After years of performing in every shithole that you can imagine, of all kinds, even if they're bars, it doesn't mean they're built for performances.
Marc:Hotel ballrooms.
Marc:It was like the same thing with performing at these outdoor shows or drive-in shows during the pandemic.
Marc:I don't want the stress of that.
Marc:Give me a comedy club.
Marc:Give me a small theater, a big theater.
Marc:I don't care.
Marc:But the anxiety of just going up either cold or even with an opener in a situation that is makeshift.
Marc:I'm just fucking I can't.
Marc:It's like a trigger, man.
Marc:And I don't know if I would frame it as PTSD because I mean, I intentionally put myself into all those situations.
Marc:But for years, for years, going back to the comedy store was like visiting the abuser.
Marc:And I don't, I, when I really think about some of those gigs, it's just horrendous to me.
Marc:I did it.
Marc:I learned my fucking craft.
Marc:I know how to get in shape now, but I, you know, just terror.
Marc:And just even the thought of it now, like I'm going on tonight, you know, at dynasty typewriter with a bunch of half, you know, half ideas, a few jokes, a few things and,
Marc:And I'm going to riff it out.
Marc:And that's how I do it.
Marc:And they're like, my brain is on fire.
Marc:I'm on edge.
Marc:I'm furious at everything.
Marc:I'm furious at myself.
Marc:And this happens innately.
Marc:I don't know why this is the way that my brain needs to generate, why this is the method.
Marc:But I know today, heading into this thing, my brain will just fucking...
Marc:rip open and I'll start putting things together and I'll outline and stuff and I'll just go kick it around up there in front of people.
Marc:It's terrifying.
Marc:There's nothing not horrendously stressful about it.
Marc:But it's always the way I've done it and this is how I'm going to do it.
Marc:I'm not happy about it.
Marc:I don't know what's going to happen.
Marc:I never give myself the benefit of the doubt given that I've done this for half my fucking life at this point.
Marc:I'm just I am at the edge, man.
Marc:And I know on some level it's like, hey, man, it's not sober behavior.
Marc:You know, maybe you need a meeting.
Marc:You're dry.
Marc:You're this or that.
Marc:This is the way it goes.
Marc:And I never remember that this is the way it goes.
Marc:I want to quit.
Marc:I don't want to do it this way anymore.
Marc:I don't want to do it anymore.
Marc:I don't want to.
Marc:And I'm just I get myself into this fucking meltdown mode.
Marc:I guess it's my innate way of building up the courage to fucking do this show because it's all life or death for me.
Marc:I'm not going up there with a list and like, well, that joke didn't work.
Marc:I'm going, I got to put it on the line.
Marc:I guess that's what I live for.
Marc:What makes it all worthwhile is,
Marc:is for me to get up there not knowing what's going to happen, to put myself in this situation where I have to be funny and not exactly sure where it's going to come from and wait for it to come and hope it does come.
Marc:Then all of a sudden it's delivered to you.
Marc:You don't know where from.
Marc:You're just like, you're sort of like, you're kind of fishing the air.
Marc:I'm going to go fishing in the ether to see if I can catch some tags, some jokes, some brilliance, just a moment.
Marc:Will it come?
Marc:Will it come?
Marc:And when it comes out of nowhere,
Marc:It's sort of like, there it is.
Marc:It's been delivered.
Marc:That moment.
Marc:It's fucking horrible to have to depend on that.
Marc:Wouldn't it be easier just to write a fucking joke, Marin?
Marc:Wouldn't that be it?
Marc:Who are you calling Marin?
Marc:I'm you, dude.
Marc:You.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Relax, man.
Marc:Steven Soderbergh's new film is called No Sudden Movie.
Marc:It's a movie.
Marc:And you'll hear, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to miscall it a film.
Marc:You'll understand what I'm saying after you listen to me and Steve.
Marc:His new movie, No Sudden Move, is now streaming on HBO Max.
Marc:And this is me talking to Mr. Soderbergh.
Marc:I tell you, man, this thing has gotten me like all those people in that one room.
Marc:It is causing me more stress than having to be in person with that many people.
Marc:Soon, soon, Stephen, there will be.
Marc:Are you going to make a movie all on Zoom?
Marc:Is that something you can do?
Guest:oh god would anybody want to see that i don't know we seem to be used to it i mean it's it seems i know but it's gotten i'm it's gotten me anxious like in right i don't know do you i get like anxious on them because it feels very performative yes and and when i feel like i'm expected
Guest:to like deliver, I get like really, I get really anxious.
Guest:It's like a new thing.
Guest:I mean, do you, as a performer, did you ever, were you ever nervous?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I was, you know, five minutes ago I was filled with dread and anxiety and it wasn't until I saw your face and I was like, oh, there's, there's, there he is.
Marc:It'll be fine.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I get dread all the time.
Marc:Not so much doing stand-up anymore.
Marc:I don't know when that went away, but it was about 30 years into my career.
Marc:I spent a long time pretending not to be afraid.
Marc:And then eventually one day you're like, oh, I know how to do this.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So you don't generally have anxiety when you have to approach a film?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:That kind of stuff doesn't make me nervous at all.
Guest:Professional stuff to me is not...
Guest:not worth like getting really emotional about personal stuff.
Guest:I get very anxious about.
Guest:And that's what I mean.
Guest:Something something is like leaked over.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Something that what used to be strictly professional.
Guest:Now it feels like it's leaking into something personal.
Guest:It's making me really anxious.
Marc:Well, are you saying that in this age of social media platforms and easy access to almost anybody that your boundaries are being a little a little strained?
Marc:Yeah, it's terrible.
Guest:Just it's really it's it's the it's one of the worst experiments ever.
Marc:You mean the general experiment of capitalism's exploration of social media and mining our brains entirely?
Guest:Well, just just as another chapter in the, you know, how did we get here?
Guest:Book.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, it's just and also the the the continual experience of counter intuition.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Of watching people.
Guest:You'd think, oh, I can.
Guest:I absolutely know what's going to happen here.
Guest:And that is absolutely not what happens.
Guest:But like, it's not how people react.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Or respond like that's it's disorienting.
Marc:Like what's an example of that?
Guest:Well, I think it's when you try to, let's say, either incentivize or disincentivize people to do one thing or another.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so how many times does it happen that.
Guest:The plan is announced.
Guest:If you do X, we will give you Y. Right.
Guest:It goes horribly wrong.
Guest:Either too many people show up and the thing just crashes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or nobody shows up and it's a complete waste of time.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But in both instances, we feel, and it's hypocritical, but we feel our first reaction is, how did you not see that coming?
Guest:Right, right, right, right.
Guest:So there's just...
Guest:It's just so crazy.
Marc:It's a 50 50 proposition, though.
Marc:You can see both things coming and you're hoping that it's going to be more than one person.
Marc:The real sad thing is, is when you get there and there's no one there, but two people, you kind of feel like, well, I mean, there's two.
Marc:So, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:We got to put on a show, I guess.
Guest:Well, like you said, it's 50 50.
Guest:And that's that.
Guest:That implies a certain reality of or acknowledgement of uncertainty that is unsettling.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And I guess it's real.
Guest:It's real and it's true, but it's unsettling.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, I mean, you don't have there's very few things we have control over.
Marc:I imagine a movie is one of them.
Marc:That's probably about 95 percent.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Well, it's certainly in terms of, you know, when you're working on the thing, the amount of control that you're able to exert on that thing isn't, you know, normal.
Guest:Most people don't go to work and have that kind of power.
Marc:Of course.
Guest:But...
Guest:At the same time, in my experience, you're mistaken if you feel you really control it.
Guest:There are too many human beings involved.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's the worst.
Marc:It's just too many people.
Marc:You know, I see.
Marc:I saw your I don't know how close you are with Tom Papa, but I see him a lot doing comedy.
Marc:I saw him the other night.
Guest:Tom's a good friend.
Guest:He's funny.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He's like I said to who I was sitting in the back of the room.
Marc:I was going on after him.
Marc:I said, you know, watching him is like watching something that has always existed in comedy.
Marc:He's got some sort of timing that seems sort of like ever present, you know, throughout the entire undertaking since stand up, starting doing stand up, you know.
Guest:Yeah, it's it's a it's you're right.
Guest:It's a sound in there.
Guest:There's there's it's a verbal equivalent of a kind of music.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:There's a rhythm rhythm.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, for sure.
Marc:Goes all the way back.
Marc:Goes all the way back to the Borscht Belt.
Guest:So you just you basically just called him the oldest comic book.
Marc:yeah yeah him and jeff ross i'll do it right to their face they're they're part of the continuity for sure so i i watch i watch a new movie and i was thinking about because i took it's it's uh it's like a multi-tiered noir i guess is really what it is and and it really it sort of seeks to address almost all the uh the the buttons of noir in a way doesn't it absolutely i hope so yeah
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then I started thinking about, you know, the movie that you based on, The Underneath.
Marc:I just saw Richard or Robert Ziadmok movie recently, a couple of them.
Marc:And there's something profound and simple about the way that guy made movies.
Marc:Was he some sort of influence on you when approaching this type of material?
Guest:Oh, absolutely.
Guest:I mean...
Guest:Like you said, there's a clarity to it that I think is deceptively simple.
Guest:In Robert's movies?
Guest:Yeah, but also in the best examples of this genre.
Guest:When it's done really well, they achieve a sort of clarity that requires...
Guest:in my experience, a lot of, you know, very specific effort.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And and so I think sometimes that gets lost.
Guest:Interesting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But there's just for this, I wanted to.
Guest:I wanted to sort of be in the room with a certain kind of film from that period.
Guest:But I didn't want it to be a purely representational recreation of that era.
Marc:Well, I definitely felt that.
Marc:I mean, it definitely has a very controlled and consistent look to it in terms of the, you know, the tone of the color.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And also in the way it seems like you structured almost all the shots.
Marc:I couldn't tell whether it was my screener or was it intentional?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:Those are those are very wide lenses.
OK.
Marc:So that so that was that was there for a reason.
Marc:That was totally on purpose.
Marc:And what effect do you get from that?
Marc:What does it do psychologically?
Marc:What do I need to know?
Guest:Oh, well, I would I would I would never venture a guess as to what its effect might be.
Guest:But but its intention, I think, was to sort of in a in a in a two literal way.
Guest:bring you out of a space in which you have a 90 degree grid, essentially.
Guest:Right.
Guest:A world in which things are that squared off.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like, I mean, I know that sounds incredibly pretentious, but that really felt wrong to me to have images that were that sort of square.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Oh, OK.
Guest:So I purposely went and found this
Guest:set of lenses that um embraces the inherent anomalies of any anamorphic lens okay like they they are just like we're going with it right yeah yeah yeah it's got it's bendy yeah like we're just we're gonna do it and i thought this is perfect for us that's sort of interesting because i'm sitting there going like oh this must be the screener i guess uh
Marc:But it was completely intentional.
Marc:What time of day was this?
Marc:It was during the day, but now I got to go back and watch it, and it's like, no, this is on purpose.
Marc:No, but are you just discontent with anything that is sort of the old reliable way of moving forward?
Guest:No, not at all.
Guest:It's more...
Guest:Is there a way to blend different things that have worked before into something that doesn't feel exactly like either of them?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And the story, how you because you just I mean, the execution of the story and how it continues to unfold and how you have, you know, you've got you've got a mob movie.
Marc:You've got a revenge movie.
Marc:You know, you've got a guy seeking some sort of personal justice.
Marc:You've got several different factions of the mob.
Marc:Then you've got the you know, the
Marc:one of the biggest American industrial complexes involved in this document.
Marc:When you approach that material, do you realize, like, you know, I guess the real challenge outside of finding these these new lenses is, you know, how do you flatten this story enough for it to all sink in?
Guest:You know, no, exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I think that's the that's the the running conversation.
Guest:And it doesn't really conclude until you've locked and delivered the movie.
Yeah.
Guest:what information should be released at what point and by whom.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like that's literally, it's really, really comes down to that because how you end up doing that directly affects the audience's ability to engage and, and sort of give you a little bit of runway.
Guest:Like you want them chasing you a little bit.
Guest:Right.
Guest:but they need to feel intention.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And they, they, they need to feel like their interest will be rewarded.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so if you, if you confuse them or, or somehow allow them to disconnect with,
Guest:You know, it just gets harder to pick them back up.
Guest:So this was a movie when we're where we are constantly analyzing what character knows what when and should this scene come here or should like we really wanted the math to be clean.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, it definitely was because even if you're not unlike Chinatown or some of the more complicated noir movies, even if you think you miss something, by the time all the stories pay off, you're like, oh, what?
Marc:Oh, no.
Marc:So there's that triple like, what the fuck?
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:And then at the end, you're sort of like, all right, that was good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:well good because look we were we were in in one in one regard we weren't following the the map of the typical noir because the movie does not end with a gun battle right right and it doesn't you know uh end with the uh with with the woman dying or or getting away with something right no no
Guest:No, not not in the version I did.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, it's sort of interesting in this movie, though, you know, given like I talked to Sharon Stone about Mosaic, you know, and I was able to watch that.
Marc:Unfortunately, I just watched the movie version.
Marc:I didn't, you know, setting up for it.
Marc:But it seems like in this outing, the only thing you really did that was, you know, kind of pushing the envelope was using that lens.
Marc:So it bent at the sides, which also, I think, creates now that I think back on it and, you know, what you're saying about the 90 degree thing.
Marc:But it also is a reminder of that you're watching a movie in some degrees, which is, you know, which is kind of the old French new wave trick.
Marc:You know, hey, surprise.
Marc:It's an illusion.
Marc:But yeah.
Guest:Well, I did think of it in my mind as a movie as opposed to a film.
Guest:I think that those are slightly different things.
Guest:And so for me, the more movie-ish it was, the better.
Marc:Oh, interesting.
Marc:So you want to tell me what the difference is so I make sure I know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:One of them wins awards.
Marc:Can you tell me which one?
Guest:Oh, I think I think it's I think it's fairly obvious that if you if you had somebody if you were doing like, you know, the equivalent of a flashcard test.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where you you you held up the poster for a piece of cinema.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And ask just asked a person like, do you consider that a film or a movie?
Guest:And just took that data.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:that the ones that they identified as films would would in the aggregate have more awards huh i think and you didn't make one of those you made a movie this is a movie okay this is a movie this is a movie so you basically are we putting it out in the world that you're not you don't want to win awards you're not expecting awards no it's it's in terms of it's
Marc:its intention okay so what is that to entertain to just entertain yes and when you do something like mosaic which was involved in app and involved sort of a an ability to sort of investigate the movie uh the movie's plot through other means and go deeper than you would normally that is also i assume a more complicated entertainment yes
Marc:yeah that was we didn't even it was so we didn't know what to call it yeah like that that was that was a that was a challenge so what what do you think was then from your point of view the last movie you made or the last film last film
Marc:Che.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yep.
Marc:And so does that come down to a business decision for you?
Marc:No.
Marc:It just is.
Marc:You look at the material and you take the gig.
Guest:Yeah, if it's...
Marc:it's hell yeah there are two categories hell yeah and no okay so so hell yeah can be anything that you're interested in absolutely because i have to be honest when i uh behind the candelabra i've watched like four times oh my god and i um uh you know you know primarily for the line where michael douglas goes who are you talking to mumbles
Marc:I mean, you must have been on the set of that.
Marc:Watching Michael Douglas do that, you must have just been entertained every fucking day.
Guest:They...
Guest:really just you know ran toward it they just really it was really fun to watch michael and matt just just do it like just do it yeah and and it was a really it was a really for me a really special kind of experience because in theory that was going to be my last
Marc:And but, yeah, I know that I've heard that you point because I do that, too.
Marc:Like over the pandemic, I realized, like, not only do I not miss stand up, but maybe I'm all better.
Marc:Like it becomes sort of like, why was I doing this to begin with?
Marc:How come I feel relief?
Marc:Maybe I'm done.
Marc:So what what drove you to to decide that you might be done?
Guest:Oh, I think just the business was making me a bit nutty.
Guest:I didn't understand the process by which large-scale important decisions about, you know, where everything should go were being made because they seemed so...
Guest:so much in opposition to my experience of how to solve creative problems, like how to how to how to answer a question.
Guest:I it seemed
Guest:I was absolutely aware that that that there was and there is a certain amount of information that I don't have access to about why they make the decisions they make.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, I'm I'm I'm even though I'm working for them, I I don't know what assumptions they make about growth, eyeball migration, subscription costs like I don't know.
Marc:Isn't a lot of times the decisions they make based on their own fear of failure?
Guest:Well, if that's true, that's not a knock because that's most of that's most of us.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's so I just wish that at that point in 2013, my unwillingness to acknowledge that, you know, was just making me really frustrated.
Guest:And and I think afterward, I realized I kind of
Guest:I let it bleed.
Guest:I thought it was about my job and it wasn't about my job.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because once I started doing my job again, I was really happy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I realized that I had allowed, you know, my my sort of bafflement to to really take me off course and slow me down.
Guest:I shouldn't I shouldn't be like giving that so much real estate, like just go to work.
Marc:Right.
Marc:To judge yourself against this sort of like nebulous disappointment for with the intentions of the industry.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, like, yeah, it was like a weird.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like I was in some free floating, like funeral or something.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Anyway, it's stupidly.
Guest:I had let it kind of, you know, bleed into my day job.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And once I once I got past that, everything got better.
Guest:But you did stop for a while, right?
Guest:It was it was very, very brief.
Guest:It was very it was embarrassingly brief.
Guest:and what was the plan you're like i'm going to do this now i said i was going to um i was going to take painting lessons did you uh yes and how how do you find are you still painting no no i never did you never you never you never no i mean it it i got two i think two
Marc:two lessons in and then i got the script for the nick and oh and that re-engaged you people love that series and that was just i love doing it yeah and that's like like steady work that's not like i'm gonna make a movie it's like we got a whole thing to do here that's gonna go over you know many episodes yeah yeah yeah oh it's so much fun it was so much fun
Marc:Now, when you talk about it, it's like when you talk about the job, you know, because like you're you're a guy who like there are certain movies that you've made that made an indelible impression on me.
Marc:I mean, all the way from the beginning, because I went to college with Steve Brill.
Marc:So when you cast him.
Marc:Oh, shit.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:We used to do comedy together.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But I remember that movie as being like some sort of globally, you know, it was a game changer on so many levels.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Uh, let's, let's, let's not debate that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Um, it was an unexpected thing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So then that sets you going.
Marc:And then over the course of this thing, like, where did you, you know, did you, did you study film?
Marc:Yeah, but not formally.
Marc:Not formally.
Guest:So you made that.
Guest:I didn't go to school for it.
Marc:So this is like so you're kind of an autodidact in this medium.
Guest:By by by law, I am described as self-taught.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Really?
Guest:By law?
Guest:In a legal case, I think you would that would they would have to say that.
Marc:So the evolution of this skill set.
Marc:Well, that's interesting to me because anytime you change the approach that you take, because this movie is really, the movie you just made is unlike any other movie you made to some degree.
Marc:I hope so.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Because you're constantly employing everything that you've learned, everything that you're a fan of, and everything that you want to try in each movie.
Marc:But you do have certain consistencies around...
Marc:I guess what I'm trying to get at is you keep talking about the job.
Marc:So do you not see yourself as an artist?
Marc:Do you see that the director is primarily an occupation that you apply to in any way that the material demands?
Marc:Do you not think that a point of view or some sort of auteur authorship is necessary?
Guest:Well, I'm an absolute believer in the idea of a decider.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like there needs to be a decider.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I think the best results have been.
Guest:When that decider is very, very specific and rigorous about all of the choices that have to be made to get something done.
Guest:You know, it's it's I tell people it's like, if you don't like answering questions, do not take this job.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Answering questions.
Guest:That's all it is.
Marc:But you but you're answering them, you know, in the face of the the task.
Marc:It's not people are asking you questions, are they?
Marc:yeah oh yeah yeah like actors like producers like yeah oh yeah lighting people like where like yeah which ones what do we yeah so okay everything everything all the time that's that's the job and the more the more unified
Guest:the answers are, I think the better the piece.
Marc:But do you ever think that because of your natural compulsion to do new things and change things up all the time, has in some way denied you a specific voice?
Marc:Like, do you feel that people can see a Soderbergh movie and go like, this is a Soderbergh movie?
Guest:Oh, I don't think...
Guest:I don't that to me, that ends up if that becomes true, that becomes a
Guest:a potentially dangerous thing because then you're, I don't, I think being a brand in any sense of that word in, in, in terms of is like a terrible idea because you'll be expected to deliver on that brand.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Cause that, yeah, exactly.
Guest:Then it's, and, and, and, you know, what, what keeps me being,
Guest:You know, activated is the possibility of something in front of me that that I'm going to learn something new.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And and get, you know, get challenged in some way that's going to be new or it has demands that I've never had to meet before.
Guest:Like that, by definition, I want it to keep changing.
Right.
Marc:Well, there was a point early on, I think, right, where, you know, you were pushing the envelope for yourself.
Marc:And, you know, and I think some movies were not received as, you know, in any real way.
Marc:But I mean, but do you see those in retrospect as necessary learning experiences?
Guest:Oh, absolutely.
Guest:In every particular, it's not fun to lose people money.
Guest:I don't enjoy it.
Guest:I don't enjoy losing money for people.
Guest:But, you know, the point is.
Guest:You have to.
Guest:If at any stage, I mean, unless you're talking about catastrophic failure after catastrophic failure, you can't second guess yourself.
Guest:You can only make something that you want to see that you would stand in line to go see.
Guest:And if you're getting into some sort of predictive state, I just think now you don't know where North is.
Guest:And so luckily, occasionally,
Guest:like these concentric circles you know i'll make something that people seem to want to get eyeballs on at that particular moment then there's there could be a fallow period then it goes like i've done a couple in a row that have done like that i've done a couple in a row that have tanked yeah like it's just all all with the same methodology right so it's this is this i don't know what else to
Guest:to listen to other than my own desire to see something.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So, so in other words, you're not, you're not thinking like this isn't going to sell.
Marc:You're thinking like, I want to follow this through because I love this thing and I'm going to make it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I think you need to have an understanding of the real world economics of the
Guest:an idea that requires a certain amount of resources to do well.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And the potential audience for it.
Guest:Like I do, I do think you, you, you don't be stupid about that too often.
Marc:Well, I mean, you've had experience with, I mean, I mean, I don't guess you like doing these junkets on some level.
Guest:Only when they, well, I have certain, you know what I did?
Guest:I, I, I just, I,
Guest:I said, here's how I would like to structure these.
Guest:I'd like them to be long.
Guest:I'd like the conversations to be long.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Then I can do them.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so I've been able.
Guest:That'll give them.
Guest:It's the only way to stay sane.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And it's also the only way to have follow through, but also the downside of that.
Marc:But because you're a sophisticated thinker and an intellectual person.
Marc:But the only downside of the longer form interview is it gives them more things to take out of context.
Marc:But, you know, that's the dice you're going to roll.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When speculating about the film industry becomes a third rail, then we'll know the pendulum has gone very far in a certain direction because there's a lot more important stuff going on.
Marc:It is very hard, especially through that.
Marc:How do you think your film, how do you think Contagion held up to the real thing?
Marc:Do you...
Guest:Well, I mean, I think the science is solid.
Guest:The things we missed were...
Guest:Again, big giant examples of irrational behavior.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, we just we missed a lot of that.
Marc:Well, that was a leadership problem.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That you that you would be in a situation in which the administration would be in some sort of disarray and confusion.
Guest:These were things that.
Guest:You know, we in trying to keep it fairly intimate that we we we missed and we thought the position and the amount of real estate that the Jude Law character occupied in contagion wouldn't be any larger than that.
Guest:We never imagined that it would become like half.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:We looked at it as like 12%.
Guest:And when it turned into 50%, we were like, wow, I didn't see that coming.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:But, you know, the process for the people that are in the middle of it, you know, we tried to really show it's a very complex thing and there are very smart people working on it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How'd you handle it?
Marc:What'd you do over the year?
Marc:You worked?
Guest:We were in New York.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:the whole time until, um, from the beginning until, uh, I left to go to Detroit to shoot no sudden move in September.
Guest:So we were, you know, kind of there for that period, which, which had a lot of, uh, a lot of pain.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Um, and dislocation.
Guest:Yeah.
Um,
Guest:But I ended up after we finished No Sudden Move in Los Angeles.
Guest:I went from Detroit to Los Angeles just in time for their wave.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it's really it's really been wild to see it.
Guest:to see it evolve like this and, and to, to, to really take on the fact that when we were making contagion and all the people we were consulting with were saying, you know, this is going to happen.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like you, you just can't quite wrap your mind around it.
Guest:And then, and then to see it.
Guest:And in many ways, I mean, the, the, the,
Guest:The mortality quotient in contagion was much higher.
Guest:But in many ways, what was terrifying about this was to talk to some of our consultants and have them go, oh, this actual real world thing is a lot worse than the one we came up with for contagion.
Guest:really so yeah they're like this they're like this thing they call it nose to toes they're like this is bad in terms of just the complexity and full body you know activation that it caused yeah the the they were like this thing is gnarly covet covet yeah yeah yeah they're like our thing was a lot simpler it just killed you quicker yeah in most cases
Guest:So this, this is it's a, it's a, it's a real, it's a real Testament again to, to,
Guest:These scientists, there's some technology that exists now that didn't exist then.
Guest:That's why we got to a vaccine so fast.
Marc:It's pretty amazing.
Marc:And it's interesting, like you said to me, that there are bigger problems than studio issues and movie business issues.
Marc:But you seek to...
Marc:You know, we all did just lockdown and everybody watched more movies and more entertainment than they ever would in their life.
Marc:They caught up on movies.
Marc:They saw things they didn't want.
Marc:They saw things they didn't see before.
Marc:They used it to ground themselves and keep sane.
Marc:But I keep asking myself, is that even in this movie that you just made, the movie No Sudden Move,
Marc:There is an environmental message.
Marc:There is a message in there.
Marc:I guess it's not unlike some of the more some of the noirs that deal with, you know, with nefarious industry and politics.
Marc:But it is a prescient and current realization of, you know, industry fucking people and we're living in the garbage.
Marc:So I guess as a filmmaker, is there a responsibility as an artist or do you just go on making movies?
Marc:Because I don't know what art is going to really change anybody.
Marc:You know, people are always talking about like, well, you know, you got to do your art because that's where change comes from.
Marc:Like what, a painting?
Marc:Like what's going to, you know, what do you mean it's going to change anything?
Marc:Like, I got the message from this movie I just watched, which you are not calling a film.
Marc:And, you know, a lot of times all you can do is go like, wow, you know, it was fucked up back then.
Marc:You know, I mean, but Contagion, that was that, you know, that saw into the future.
Marc:What is the responsibility?
Guest:Well, personally, I feel it's to be as accurate as you can.
Guest:generally speaking yeah like like you know and again we get into a very subjective space of well how can when you talk about lying you talk about being accurate or what's true yeah you know what then what is a lie what's the what's the movie equivalent of of a lie um and
Guest:It's a long list.
Guest:And and there are some very there's some very good and certainly some some some very successful movies on it.
Guest:And and then the question becomes, well, but if the audience understands that, then is it really a lot like if they know?
Guest:Yeah, I know what you're doing.
Guest:Just do it right.
Guest:You know, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And who am I to say that they can't have that?
Guest:You know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But well, you're the guy who makes it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I'm saying it's really personal.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like my my definition of a movie lie is going to be different from somebody else's.
Guest:Like what?
Marc:So what's a movie lie?
Guest:Well, the people can change in two hours.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:OK.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I won't I won't go as dark as that people can change.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But it is this weird sort of.
Guest:uh relationship that we have with with with stories in general but movies i think especially because they're so powerful because it's such a powerful medium when you experience it you know in a theater with a lot of people there's nothing really exactly like it um and you still and you still uh enjoy that you're still making movies with that in mind i
Guest:Every filmmaker would like their movie seen on a giant screen.
Guest:It simply becomes a matter of economics.
Guest:Like if I don't if I'm not making the kinds of movies that draw people to movie screens, then there's that's not a business.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, I guess if we just keep making the TVs bigger and people have a dedicated room in their house and they're expecting- It's getting close.
Marc:It is, man.
Guest:By the way, speaking of, I don't know why.
Guest:No, I'm not going to go there.
Guest:Why?
Guest:I'm going to save that for the end.
Guest:That sounded great.
Marc:But so you have experience.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So you made a couple of movies on iPhones.
Marc:Was that to prove a point or because-
Marc:Well, I mean, that's a confrontive way to say it.
Marc:You didn't experiment and you found it successful and you were impressed by the results and it is an option for you.
Marc:But, you know, this movie you just made, you went and found these lenses that were far from an iPhone.
Marc:And so do they do those exist on the same plane to you?
Guest:Oh, sure.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:In all instances, the the the
Guest:you know, the motivation is the same, which is to, you know, see if there's some, you know, melange of the real world genre, my own preoccupations, format, form of distribution, you know, to.
Guest:So in the case of the unsane and high flying bird,
Guest:fascinated by this technology and wanted to see if there were things that I could do with this technology that I couldn't do with any other technology, just to see what's possible, what's not possible, what's different.
Guest:And because they were in different formats, it took me two movies to really get a feel for that.
Guest:And my walk away was...
Guest:I think both of these are closer to what I wanted than if I'd used quote unquote normal cameras.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:That I was able to put the lens in places that were specific to these devices.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And move the camera in a way that it would be very dangerous to move anything larger.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that that was contributive to like the visual scheme of the film.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And you didn't have to put it was the best version.
Marc:And you didn't have to put anyone in danger to get the shots.
Marc:No.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that well, I mean, well, that makes sense.
Marc:I guess you also learn that in a pinch, if there's economic collapse and the infrastructure doesn't hold, if your phone is still working, you can make a movie.
Guest:I'm the cockroach of this industry.
Marc:So in your education, like saying that is self-taught.
Marc:I mean, who were the most informative, you know, people in your life as each movie as you got opportunities after that first movie?
Marc:Was it primarily DPs?
Marc:Who were you like?
Marc:You know, where did you pick up the language of film from?
Guest:Well, I, you know, I'd seen a lot of films.
Guest:I did.
Guest:When I said saying I'm self-taught or that I didn't go to school for film is a little disingenuous only because the reality was that.
Guest:I was going to a laboratory high school on the LSU campus.
Guest:And every day after school, I was hanging out with the actual college film students.
Guest:OK, yeah.
Guest:So for four years, I was in that class every day after school.
Marc:OK, OK.
Marc:So you you were soaking it in the real stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I'm so technique and process and everything else.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so then the the once I graduated high school, the plan seemed very straightforward.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Spec screenplays and make short films.
Guest:I mean, that's how you you know, that's how you get yourself noticed.
Guest:You know, you can't get anywhere if you don't make stuff.
Marc:So and whose ideas in terms of like, you know, the films that, you know, drove you or that you were you're sort of like Rosetta Stones.
Marc:What were they?
Guest:Well, at that point, it would have been, I mean, Casavetes, you know, had existed for a long time.
Guest:So he was kind of an anchor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But then I remember Claudia Wiles' Girlfriends was a big deal.
Guest:And then, you know, then you have Jarmusch, you have David Lynch, Spike Lee.
Guest:Like, it's you can feel...
Guest:You can feel the hunger in the middle of the decade where the studios just took back complete control, a desire to see something that felt handmade.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:So like so on in terms of people you could judge yourself against and in terms of what you thought you wanted to do, those were the guys.
Guest:Well, those were, yeah, those were, those, those seemed, what's the right word?
Guest:They weren't arm's length, but they were not, it wasn't impossible.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It was possible.
Marc:And it's really, it's interesting out of all those people you've gone on to make, you know, more, I think independent films and more studio films than any of them really.
Guest:Well, I mean, well, Spike, you know, Spike's been very active and made movies for everybody.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:But and Jim Jarmusch owns all of his own negatives.
Guest:So, you know, yeah, that's that's a success that I don't that I can't claim.
Guest:Do you own any negatives?
Guest:Yeah, I own seven.
Marc:So when you did Oceans.
Marc:I mean, that's a franchise, right?
Guest:Potentially.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But like, you know, in what we're talking about in terms of the possibility of becoming that those movies were definitely a brand.
Marc:You may your point of view or Soderbergh signature might not have been a brand.
Marc:But after you did two of those, were you like one more?
Marc:That's it.
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:I was.
Guest:those from those movies for me provide, um, an opportunity to play.
Guest:That's, that's unique.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like there's no, there's no, there's nothing else that comes my way that really allows for that exact form of, of being a child, um, for me.
Guest:Cause even something like Logan lucky is, is much more controlled visually than one of the oceans movies.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Um,
Guest:So they're there.
Guest:In my mind, they're just they're they're just these sort of little, you know, little rainbows.
Marc:Well, you know, what's amazing is those type of movies with that expansive cast of that kind of talent, they they don't.
Marc:really exist like they used to i mean it was a fairly common thing to do for big studios to do those massive comedies or even war movies with you know every studio player they had and and they were spectacles so like you know just that thing that you kind of reinvented that or or at least engaged that that that uh
Marc:that type of movie again for the first time in, you know, decades probably really.
Guest:Well, it was, you know, I think a testament to, to the late, great Jerry Weintraub and to the cast that we were able to do three of those in six years and keep everybody together.
Guest:Well, they must have loved it.
Guest:They must love working with you.
Guest:You know, I'm just saying that that speaks to their that speaks to their connection.
Guest:And and, you know, that's that's that's a that's a rare thing, you know?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And in like and it was sort of like to me, but I romanticize relationships and movie stars.
Marc:And even though I've talked to so many different people, I still have a certain amount of fandom and awe and assumptions around, you know, people like, you know, working even with Elliot Gould.
Marc:you know, and, and Carl Reiner that, you know, these different decades of show business represented along with this new generation of, of movie stars.
Marc:I mean, for you, like stepping into that, even though you've got to helm the thing and provide a space, is there a party that's like, Holy shit.
Guest:Well, I was scared.
Guest:I mean, I was, I was, no, I was scared for a lot of reasons.
Guest:The, the,
Guest:the the opportunity that it provided if if if it were, you know, well executed, you know, were significant.
Guest:Like it's it's it just means more freedom, the ability to take even bigger chances on things like it just, you know, conversely, if if if it crashes,
Guest:Then it closes off, you know, certain opportunities.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But, you know, these are not problems in any real sense.
Guest:They're they're they're strictly I'm in trying to figure out what the next two or three years of work would look like.
Guest:You know how people respond to something is going to have a big effect on that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So so if I have something that I feel is ambitious in a certain sort of way, it's going to take, you know, a real leap of faith on the part of the people financing it.
Guest:You probably don't want to go in with that after the catastrophe.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And none of them were.
Marc:Those were huge movies.
Guest:And then be mad about it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like, you know, you know.
Guest:I think you need to be smart about timing.
Guest:You know, the timings, timing is really important.
Guest:And I've been the beneficiary of it many, on many occasions, but it's, it's, you know, that's just showing up and, you know,
Guest:With the right thing at the right time, which which just you can't force them.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And sometimes it's just luck cosmic timing.
Guest:But I would argue, you know, being in the right place at the right time.
Guest:if your interactions with somebody are really, you know, toxic, or if you're just not very good at any sort of connection with people or, you know, working with them in a way that they don't feel diminished or threatened or something like, if you can't figure that out,
Guest:You won't be asked to that place, which will mean being in the right place at the right time.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that seems to be like it seems that what you're speaking to, there were those people that were like that.
Marc:And because of that and because of the intimidation factor and the fear factor, we're able to dominate the industry.
Marc:And now those, you know, that paradigm is shifting and there's a relief there.
Marc:Is that what you're addressing?
Guest:Well, I hope so.
Guest:I hope it's I hope it's going to shift.
Guest:It should shift.
Guest:It's it's.
Marc:Do you feel like you've been bullied in different times by production entities, by individuals?
Marc:No, that's good.
Marc:But, you know, the guys.
Guest:No, it's more that I was just never in a situation in which I was dealing with somebody who viewed me in that sort of predatory way or wanted to torture me.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:That got pleasure out of my displeasure.
Guest:I just...
Guest:And that's not saying I never was in a room with somebody who didn't turn out to do that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I never had anybody do that to my face in a room.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You use some of these guys, these actors over and over again.
Marc:You know, you have relationships with them, you know, like Benicio, Matt Damon.
Marc:I think, you know.
Marc:Cheadle a couple of times too?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Six.
Marc:Six.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:What do you expect?
Marc:How has that relationship evolved and how do you work with actors, generally speaking?
Marc:Do you expect them to know what to do, just show up and do their job and trust their interpretation of it?
Marc:Or is it more collaborative?
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I'm hoping they really bring...
Guest:a lot to the table.
Guest:Like I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm really trying to, you know, have the default mode be that they are, you know, completely, you know, leaning forward and, and sharing anything that they're thinking or feeling and I'll do the same.
Guest:And, and I'm looking for, I'm looking for ideas.
Guest:I'm looking for, I want them to be stress testing and,
Guest:you know, not just, and what's great is that working with people, especially Don and Benicio, but not only them,
Guest:they don't just talk about their role.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, they talk about the whole thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They talk about scenes that they're not in.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And because they know like it's a whole, it's a whole thing.
Guest:It's not, it's not any one person.
Guest:So they, they view it, they have the experience and the intelligence that,
Guest:So, no, you've got to look at the whole thing.
Marc:Yeah, they're so good.
Marc:Don was so good.
Marc:And Benicio, he does his thing, and he's always great.
Marc:But Matt Damon is just like, they're all profoundly good actors.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:It's sort of astounding, really.
Guest:No, and it must be a, I can't imagine what it's like to be good at that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In what way?
Guest:You tell me, Mark.
Guest:Tell me.
Guest:What is it like to be a good actor?
Guest:I'm trying.
Guest:I'm trying.
Guest:What does it feel like?
Guest:I'm trying, Stephen.
Guest:I'm trying to feel.
Guest:You remember afterwards, the one time I acted on stage in high school,
Guest:I have no memory of the actual thing.
Guest:I remember coming out and I remember leaving.
Guest:I literally don't remember what I did.
Marc:Well, I think as I try to do more of it and apply myself to the opportunities I'm having and taking more chances with it, I find that once you lock into what you're going to do or where you're going to come from, it's an awfully present experience.
Marc:And when you come out of it, it's like that feeling you had, like what just happened?
Marc:But then the fact is you have to repeat it, which I think is the bigger part of the job.
Marc:It's like, how do you keep doing that?
Marc:And how do you make that continually interesting?
Marc:And you've worked with guys that somehow have figured that out.
Marc:Oh, absolutely.
Marc:Because that's the whole job.
Marc:It's like, hey, that was great.
Marc:You really nailed it.
Marc:Now we're going to do it 20 more times.
Marc:And they do it.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:You know, I'm trying to, you know, I enjoy it and I want to believe I'm doing okay with it.
Marc:And sometimes I do and that's good.
Guest:And do you enjoy, do you enjoy everything that goes with it?
Guest:The other cast?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like, yeah.
Guest:I mean, it's, it's the social part of it.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Most of the time, you know, I'm a little like, you know, in order to sort of maintain my thing and not bleed, like, you know, because of my insecurity over my life, I've known like, you know, don't hang around if you're not, if you're feeling needy, you know,
Marc:Get off set and ride it out and then convince yourself that you're okay and get back in the saddle.
Marc:But outside of that, yeah, I enjoy it.
Marc:I like standing around eating and talking about things.
Marc:What were you going to say that we were pushing till the end?
Guest:Your advice about the towel on the hotel room chair is...
Guest:is so right and so true and so useful yeah good that i just wanted to say thank you and i wanted you to know that every time i place a towel on a hotel room chair i think about you well i am i'm honored and moved and i'm thrilled that i helped out in some way if you can reach one person
Marc:Well, good.
Marc:Well, I'm glad, Stephen.
Marc:And to you, your movies have been very important to me.
Marc:Many of them are unforgettable and have really changed the way I look at film.
Guest:Well, I appreciate that.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:As a movie director.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I appreciate the towel thing as just a guy that spends time in hotel rooms.
Marc:Take care, man.
Marc:I really enjoyed the movie.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Good to talk to you.
Marc:No Sudden Move is now streaming on HBO Max and treat yourself to any number of Steven Soderbergh films.
Marc:What a great talk.
Marc:Glad I got to talk to that guy.
Marc:I'm glad I helped him out with my important towel advice for motel room desk chairs.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I believe that was an attempting normal.
Marc:Here comes the guitar.
Thank you.
guitar solo
Thank you.
Yeah.
Guest:boomer lives and monkey and the fond cat angels everywhere