Episode 1237 - Ellen Burstyn
Marc:Lock the gates!
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark marin that is my name did i just space it for a second is that happening did i just have a mild brain skid brain fart situation where for a split second i didn't know my name do me a favor please
Marc:Let me have that freedom.
Marc:Is that from the meditation?
Marc:Is that what you get when you really get deep into it, when you tap into the big nothing, when you hitch a ride on the big frequency, empty your brain that you don't even know who you are?
Marc:You're just a free spirit floating through space from your room?
Marc:Is that what happens?
Marc:Because, man, if that was it, I want to hold on to that.
Marc:I want to have some control over not knowing who I am for a second, you know, in the way where it's because, you know, my brain is so wide open that I'm actually space traveling, not because, you know, I'm having some sort of identity crisis and think I'm a fraud because I'm I'm familiar with that school of meditation.
Marc:Not great.
Marc:Not great.
Marc:That selflessness is not helpful.
Marc:The kind where you destroy everything about your sense of who you are out of complete self-loathing and insecurity until you're just a screaming nothing alone in your room.
Marc:Not even sitting in a Lotus, just alone screaming nothing.
Marc:Good morning.
Marc:Good afternoon.
Marc:Good evening.
Marc:Welcome.
Marc:Are you about to doze off?
Marc:Was that helpful?
Marc:Hey, look, I don't know.
Marc:I don't know what I'm talking about.
Marc:Ellen Burstyn is on the show.
Marc:And she's amazing.
Marc:She's an Oscar Emmy and Tony winner.
Marc:She's been in everything from Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore to The Last Picture Show to Requiem for a Dream and, of course, The Exorcist.
Marc:And she has the lead role in this new movie, Queen Bees, which is actually in and of itself amazing.
Marc:Worth talking about, because Hollywood doesn't make a lot of fun movies starring and about seniors.
Marc:I don't like there's stuff happening on this front.
Marc:There's the Kaminsky method.
Marc:I talked to Michael Douglas about that.
Marc:And that's that's some of the the oldies doing their thing.
Marc:Is that a slang that's not right?
Marc:The oldies?
Marc:Is that bad?
Marc:I don't even know.
Marc:But I'll tell you, it's amazing to watch these actors work at this point in their lives.
Marc:I mean, on the darker side, if you watch The Father with Anthony Hopkins, which is astounding, not a comedy, not funny, kind of menacing in a way in its depiction of Alzheimer's or dementia, I think they're different.
Marc:Not positive.
Marc:Maybe I should just look it up.
Marc:I will after this.
Marc:But but that that performance was astounding.
Marc:And in this movie, it's it's kind of I think it's mean girls only their their senior citizens.
Marc:in a retirement community.
Marc:But I think it's basically Mean Girls.
Marc:The cast is Ellen Burstyn, Ann-Margaret, James Caan, Loretta Devine, Jane Curtin, Christopher Lloyd is in it.
Marc:French Stewart, who I haven't seen in a long time, is in it.
Marc:There's other people in it, but the core group is Ann-Margaret, Loretta Devine, and Jane Curtin.
Marc:They play the Queen Bees.
Marc:Ellen Burstyn is a newbie at the retirement place.
Marc:And James Caan comes in as sort of a slightly damaged love interest.
Marc:And Christopher Lloyd is the hot catch at the retirement center.
Marc:But these are great actors.
Marc:It's just amazing to see...
Marc:Them doing the work.
Marc:I mean, I interviewed James Conant and that guy's an animal, man.
Marc:That guy is like, you know, just he's like all in and he's a lot.
Marc:And and he just turned he toned.
Marc:I talked to Ellen about this.
Marc:He he toned it down, locked in.
Marc:It was astounding to me because I've been looking.
Marc:paying a lot more attention to acting as I do a little more of it myself.
Marc:And to see these actors working at this level in their 70s and 80s is sort of fascinating that there is a craft.
Marc:There is a bunch of tools that they engage in order to do what it is they do.
Marc:And it was great to watch.
Marc:And I think that the seniors will enjoy it.
Marc:I enjoy it.
Marc:I thought it was a cute movie.
Marc:It's a cute picture, a cute picture.
Marc:Also, in a few minutes, we're going to do a segment with Tom Sharpling, another get to know Tom with Tom Sharpling segment that will be coming up.
Marc:We'll try to get some some good dirt out of him from his new book this time.
Marc:Keep pushing.
Marc:I keep pushing.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:Look, I went to Whole Foods yesterday and right when I walked in, I saw the melons there.
Marc:So I picked up, I started doing my thing, doing my thing with the watermelons, holding them up to my head, putting my ear on them, knocking them, seeing if they're good, if they sound hollow, if they feel heavy.
Marc:and i picked one and then i wandered around did the rest of my shopping i bought meat at the meat counter okay and uh i was in the store for like at least 25 minutes and i get to the checkout and the woman at checkout goes yeah you have a sticker on your ear so in my hair in my hair right by my ear there was a watermelon sticker um and no one said anything i bought meat from a guy and i had a sticker on my ear nothing
Marc:People just let me walk around.
Marc:I guess that's what you do because you don't know.
Marc:Who wants to take the chance?
Marc:Who wants to step up and say, hey buddy,
Marc:You got a watermelon sticker on your ear because what are the odds of me going like, oh shit, that's embarrassing.
Marc:Thank you, man.
Marc:Thank you for telling me.
Marc:Or maybe I want it that way.
Marc:Maybe you should mind your own fucking business.
Marc:I usually have a sticker on each of my ears, a watermelon sticker, but I forgot to put the other one on this morning.
Marc:Are you judging me?
Marc:Are you judging me?
Marc:I can't walk around with stickers on my head.
Marc:I mean, what kind of fucking world is this?
Marc:Who the fuck are you?
Marc:I live the life I want to live.
Marc:I've earned it.
Marc:This is what my freedom looks like.
Marc:I have stickers on my head.
Marc:So, you know, thank you, but no thank you.
Marc:What are the odds of that happening?
Marc:Slim, but is that what holds people back?
Marc:Or they just don't want to get involved?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Hey, people, look, Tom's back.
Marc:It's time again for Get to Know Tom, where we all learn a little bit more about Tom Sharpling, our friend and author of the new book, It Never Ends.
Marc:Why am I saying it like that?
Marc:Maybe a different delivery on that.
Marc:Wait, our friend and author of the new book, It Never Ends.
Marc:I can do many reads.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Just have fun with the next one.
Marc:Go crazy with the third.
Marc:I think we got it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So why don't you just do one for yourself?
Marc:Go Gonzo.
Marc:Go Gonzo with this.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Hold on.
Marc:Our friend and author of the new book.
Marc:It never ends.
Marc:And then they go A and B on that.
Guest:What does that mean?
Guest:It just means not that last one.
Guest:Like when they're doing their select.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Let's go with A and B on that one.
Marc:Available for pre-order at TomRotaBook.com.
Marc:So, look.
Marc:Some of you know Tom Sharpling, some of you don't.
Marc:He's the host of The Best Show that was previously on WFMU, and now you can get it at bestshow.com.
Guest:Thebestshow.net.
Marc:Do we have the same server or something?
Marc:I think we do.
Marc:I think we're connected through Martine.
Marc:Right, but sometimes I get your sort of weird updates.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:That's probably not supposed to be happening.
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:And I didn't know why.
Marc:But no, they don't mean anything.
Marc:They happen late at night.
Marc:It's something that these sites do.
Marc:And I get like nine things to do, like wtfpod.com.
Marc:And then like occasionally I'll get... It doesn't mean anything.
Marc:It's all computer code.
Marc:I don't know what it does.
Marc:And anytime I've panicked about it, it has nothing to do with anything.
Marc:But hold on.
Marc:It definitely happens.
Marc:I forgot to ask Brendan about it.
Marc:I didn't know...
Marc:Why it was happening.
Marc:Like here on Monday, I've got three C panels.
Marc:And I'm like, all right, well, that's just the way it goes at night.
Marc:And then every once in a while, I'll get like a C panel best show.
Marc:And I'm like, should I call Tom and make him worry about this?
Marc:But I don't.
Marc:No, we're okay.
Marc:We're okay.
Marc:You can ignore them.
Marc:Yeah, that's what I do.
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:It doesn't matter.
Marc:It's good to see you.
Guest:Yeah, it's great to see you.
Marc:Again, I just want to make clear that we've been friends a while.
Marc:I'm not even sure how it happened, but it was late in our lives.
Guest:Yeah, it was- We're not childhood friends.
Guest:No, we didn't grow up together in New Jersey or New Mexico, but we-
Guest:I'm kind of Jersey.
Guest:You are Jersey.
Guest:You have your... Do you feel like I'm Jersey?
Guest:No, I get it.
Guest:You definitely... I know that Budweiser factory.
Guest:I think you were born behind the Budweiser factory.
Marc:No, that's where my grandparents are buried.
Marc:Close.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Well... And my great uncle's dentist office...
Marc:Abe, who was married to my grandfather's sister, Tatsy, and they had the dentist's office in the house, was there in Linden.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Linden, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, right there off Route 1.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I met you when you were writing on Monk, right?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Or no, was it then?
Guest:No, I was writing.
Guest:We were kind of, you had WTF, I had the best show, and there was all this internet chatter going on, and people were basically looking to see who could fight with each other.
Marc:And all I knew about you was your sort of Twitter avatar.
Marc:It was just this weird profile drawing.
Marc:And I'm like, who is that guy?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it just said Sharpwing.
Marc:And I thought you were some like, I thought you had like, you know, like you had some sort of...
Marc:You were like a veteran.
Marc:You just had a lot of weight to you.
Marc:You were the peak.
Marc:There's no way you could like me.
Guest:Look, I had been seeing you for so many years, eating it and all these things.
Guest:Yeah, and you're just a guy.
Guest:And then there's the time I went up to you, and I saw you doing...
Guest:Jerusalem Syndrome, maybe?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Oh, that's right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:At the West Beth.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was like, hey, I really like to join you.
Guest:And you went, yeah.
Marc:That was before we were friends.
Marc:That was before.
Marc:But I just want to make people make sure they know.
Marc:Because I read in the book, I learned a lot of stuff about you that I didn't know.
Marc:Like, really surprising stuff.
Marc:Like, I don't think anybody knows.
Guest:I think you surprised yourself.
Guest:Oh, I was ready to take so much of this to the grave.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:And it was just a matter of... I never talked about it on the radio or any podcast.
Guest:A lot of stuff.
Guest:A lot of stuff.
Guest:And you've got thousands of fans.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And they don't know any of this.
Marc:No, it's all new.
Marc:But do you think some of them are going to be like, yeah, see, it's not the guy I...
Guest:No, I think they're just going to be like, oh, get over here.
Guest:Yeah, come here, buddy.
Guest:That sounded hard.
Guest:I think a few friends who have read it said like, now I get it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They're like, okay, there's the missing pieces of that puzzle.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But you were really going to be a writer.
Marc:It sounded like.
Marc:I mean, you were writing, what was it, basketball?
Guest:I wrote for basketball magazines and just MTV commercials.
Guest:But you were like a kid.
Guest:Absolutely, yeah.
Guest:I was just trying to get my foot in the door any which way.
Guest:I was working at a store and then...
Guest:I was working at a sheet music store.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah, right, right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:For a long time.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I knew you were a writer, but I just thought, when I found out you wrote Monk for years, right?
Guest:Yeah, it was eight seasons.
Guest:I was there.
Guest:All of it.
Guest:I was working as an assistant to the guy that created the show, and I remember when he was like,
Guest:I have this TV show.
Guest:Hopefully it goes.
Guest:And if it goes, you'll be the first person that gets hired.
Guest:And then it did go.
Guest:And I was the first person that got hired.
Marc:I thought that was a great part of the story about like sort of like breaks and show business or like, you know, how one pays their dues.
Marc:Like, I think people that that don't know you can sort of, you know, get a sense of the struggle.
Marc:But like when I found out you wrote for Monk, I'm like, oh, he's like a legit show business.
Marc:Because I'm putting this together before I knew you.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I'm like, so he did that before?
Marc:The best show?
Guest:But no, you did it all during.
Guest:Simultaneously.
Guest:The best show I was not making a nickel off of.
Guest:So my day job was writing for TV.
Guest:And Monk was my first job.
Guest:And I was there for the whole run of the show.
Guest:And that was the OCD detective?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:With Shalhoub?
Guest:With Tony Shalhoub.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Great guy.
Guest:The best.
Guest:Nicest guy ever.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Couldn't.
Thank you.
Guest:will never meet another actor as generous as he was.
Marc:And I'm trying to remember in the book, were there problems with anybody?
Guest:Yeah, there were problems.
Guest:There was an incident that, I mean, it's better off if you're reading the book, but there was some jealousy over winning awards, and then there was a little bit of a stage event, and it turned into a thing or another thing.
Guest:It's probably better off in the full stories in the book.
Marc:Yeah, well, I mean, yeah.
Marc:I mean, that was a good tease, I guess.
Guest:Yeah, I think that's fair.
Marc:But also, like, well, I mean, I think the most surprising stuff is really, you know, when you were younger, you know?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Well, I mean, that's the stuff that I truly... For all... Until the last couple months, I can count on one hand the amount of people that knew...
Guest:some of those stories.
Marc:Like just your parents?
Marc:Just my parents.
Guest:And my sister.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, you didn't even tell me, you know, you didn't even tell me, like, give me any heads up.
Marc:I'm just reading this manuscript, hoping it's good, so I can be earnest when I say it was good.
Marc:Yeah, you didn't have to say...
Marc:Hey, man.
Guest:That one chapter.
Guest:Yeah, that one chapter.
Guest:That one.
Guest:Looks like you had so much fun writing it.
Guest:Like those opinion dodges that people can do.
Guest:I didn't know a lot of that stuff.
Marc:Yeah, I'd be like, well, what'd you think of how I... Oh, man, I really saw it, you know?
Marc:Like, I could really feel it.
Marc:Good descriptions.
Guest:Good descriptions.
Guest:What is it, like 270, 280?
Guest:How many pages is this thing going to be?
Guest:Is this the whole book?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That font.
Yeah.
Guest:That's an amazing font.
Guest:Easy to read.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Blew right through it.
Guest:Blew right through it.
Marc:The blurb would be, great font.
Marc:Great.
Marc:Good choice in the fonts.
Marc:No, it was great, but like, you know, I mean, that...
Marc:That's stuff in high school, right?
Marc:Yeah, there was... I mean, that was traumatic.
Guest:I mean, heavy, right?
Guest:There's heavy stuff that shaped everything for me going forward, and it's stuff that I also...
Guest:uh swallowed basically to be able to just keep going you hit it yeah either there's there's things where you can either yeah you can either face it yeah or you can kind of tamp it down and i the only course for me was to tamp it down but now i'm at a point where it's just like right i can't keep tamping it down anymore so it's so it's the yeah the whole uh
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, you know, it's in, again, it's in the, it's in the book and I think it works best.
Guest:It is crazy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you know that, I mean, just being at that place, right.
Marc:It was very scary.
Marc:Yeah, how old were you?
Guest:18?
Guest:Wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And your parents?
Marc:All right.
Guest:Yeah, again, I think it works best if people read it in the book.
Guest:All right.
Marc:Okay, I just... It'd be kind of a... Yeah, no, I get it, I get it, but I just... All right, okay, all right, all right, all right, all right.
Marc:So, are you enjoying Los Angeles?
Guest:Yeah, I like it.
Guest:I like Los Angeles.
Guest:It's a lot of good food.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I think so.
Guest:I think there's good food.
Guest:I mean, did I shut you?
Guest:Well, no, no.
Guest:There's a line where certain things I feel...
Guest:I would be happy to discuss, and other things I feel like play better within the context of the entirety of the book.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:No, I understand that.
Marc:I'm just trying to help you sell it as a friend.
Marc:I'm not trying to sandbag.
Marc:No, no, I didn't.
Marc:It's in the book.
Marc:It's in the book.
Marc:Absolutely, yes.
Marc:But you'd rather people just read it in the book than burn it?
Marc:Well, that's... All right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I guess it's because I've read it, and I know it, and I think like, man, let's just talk about that fucking...
Marc:I know.
Marc:It's dark, man.
Marc:It is.
Marc:It's dark.
Marc:But the way you handled it in the book, there was funny parts, there was dark parts, but just the fact that there's a whole chunk of your life.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:that was private for this whole time.
Marc:All right, fine.
Marc:All right.
Marc:No, it's good.
Marc:Can we do this one more time?
Marc:I mean, I know this may be stressing out a little bit.
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:Let's do it again.
Marc:So we'll do it one more time.
Marc:But in the meantime, go order the book.
Marc:All right?
Marc:Go order the book.
Marc:It never ends.
Marc:A Memoir with Nice Memories by Tom Sharple.
Marc:You can get it at tomwroteabook.com.
Marc:And you'll know why he's... All right.
Marc:You brought a pie?
Marc:I did.
Guest:I brought some pie.
Marc:Blueberry pie.
Marc:All right, all right.
Marc:We've got to figure out something.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I guess we'll try this one more time next week.
Marc:We'll do another segment of Get to Know Tom.
Marc:I don't want to pressure him, but man, there's some good stories in the book.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:And okay.
Marc:We'll just wait until next week and maybe he'll come around on it on at least one story.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:It doesn't matter.
Marc:You can order the book.
Marc:Then you'll know the stories at tomwroteabook.com and it comes out officially on July 6th.
Marc:What a treat it was to talk to Ellen Burstyn.
Marc:We were on Zoom, but she was right there, fully present, engaged, amazing memory, amazing to see her.
Marc:She looked great.
Marc:The new movie Queen Bees is now playing in theaters and on demand.
Marc:It stars Ellen Burstyn, James Caan, Jane Curtin and Anne Margaret.
Marc:And this is Ellen Burstyn.
Guest:Hello.
Marc:Hello.
Marc:How are you, Ellen?
Guest:I'm good.
Guest:How are you?
Marc:I'm good.
Marc:You look very nice.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Where are you?
Marc:I am in Los Angeles.
Guest:I'm in New York.
Marc:And you live in New York?
Marc:I do.
Marc:All the time?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I haven't always lived here, but I lived here the last six years, maybe.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Were you out here before that?
Guest:No, I was in the country.
Guest:I was upstate.
Marc:Oh, you avoid L.A.?
Guest:I've lived in L.A.
Guest:a couple of times, but it's never my favorite place.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, you know, I grew up in Michigan, so I'm used to four seasons.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So it's a seasonal thing, not the people?
Guest:Well, the people are, you know, in my business, it's the same people.
Guest:They're on both coasts all the time, so it's not the people.
Guest:It's, of course, the atmosphere of the business, you know, business, business, business.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:But it's really the...
Guest:I need leaves to fall off the trees.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yeah, I do miss it.
Marc:There's two seasons out here.
Marc:There's chili and fire.
Marc:That's all there is.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:I hope this year is better than last year.
Marc:I do too.
Marc:So I watched the new movie.
Marc:I thought it was very fun.
Guest:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah, I did.
Marc:Did you have fun?
Guest:I did, actually.
Guest:It was a fun movie to shoot.
Guest:It's one of those movies that, well, first of all, Michael Lembeck, the director, is a fun guy, and he keeps the set moving and happy and
Guest:There's not a lot of negative vibes around.
Guest:And then the actors were all wonderful.
Marc:I was so kind of... The conceit of the seniors at this place, it's sort of like a bad girls, kind of almost like a high school-y movie based at this place where you all live.
Marc:But...
Marc:So the conceit was kind of cute, but I was really moved by people really showing up and doing the work.
Marc:I mean, I've interviewed James Caan and that guy is like, he's a lot.
Marc:And he really kind of, and he really, you know.
Guest:That's a great way to describe James Caan.
Guest:He's a lot.
Marc:But he really kind of turned it off and focused and, you know, really did the work.
Marc:I mean, it was beautiful to see.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And did you know him?
Marc:You've worked with him before?
Marc:No.
Marc:Never.
Marc:First time.
Marc:No.
Marc:Did you know him?
Marc:No.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:We had met once.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But I didn't know him.
Marc:No.
Marc:How was it to work with him?
Guest:I mean, I can't.
Guest:Well, he and I had really good chemistry.
Guest:You know, we got into...
Guest:The relationship.
Guest:And we played we played with each other.
Guest:That's all I ask of an actor is play with me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, so you can feel it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he did.
Marc:Oh, that's great.
Marc:Because I found when I talked to him, like, you know, his I think he's got a very acute natural sense and a good ability to read people.
Marc:He sort of prides himself on that because like I watched like I watched stuff of his all the way back, you know, to like the rain people.
Marc:And I guess you guys I mean, he was with Sandy Meisner.
Marc:Where did you start at in terms of acting?
Guest:Well.
Guest:I was a model and I thought eventually I was going to be an actress.
Guest:And then one day I decided it was time.
Guest:And I said, okay, I made up my mind.
Guest:I'm going to do a Broadway play this fall.
Guest:How do I get an audition?
Guest:And I said that to everybody I met.
Guest:And somebody said, I know somebody who's looking for a girl to play a model in a play.
Guest:And I said, okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:And I went and I went on stage and auditioned for the part.
Guest:And it was my first time on a stage.
Guest:I mean, a Broadway stage.
Guest:And I got the part.
Guest:So I started with the lead on Broadway before I went to a class or anything.
Marc:Really?
Marc:So and you had not done it when you were a kid or anything?
No.
Guest:Well, a little.
Guest:We put on plays in my garage, but I'm sure that counts.
Marc:My brother and I. It all counts.
Marc:Who were the audiences for the big garage plays?
Marc:Your parents?
Marc:Some kids from the neighborhood?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:The people next door.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Now, what part of Michigan did you grow up in?
Marc:Detroit.
Marc:Detroit was like a great city, right?
Guest:Well, for the automobile industry, almost everybody you knew was connected to cars, either making them or selling them or repairing them or, you know.
Marc:Is that what your family did?
Marc:Your dad or...
Guest:No, no.
Guest:When you say dad to me, that involves a lot of different people.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't have a straight, straight answer to that.
Marc:How many dads do you have?
Guest:None.
Guest:My mother, my mother had four husbands.
Marc:Oh, my gosh.
Marc:So, but but none of them were your actual father.
Guest:Her first husband was my actual child.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Guest:But I don't know him.
Marc:Oh, and you never did?
Guest:We met, but there wasn't what you'd call a relationship.
Marc:Wow, so there's a lot of... So you had to have these relationships for every few years?
Marc:Did she get remarried, or how did that work?
Guest:Well, her third husband, she was married the longest to, and he's the one that I...
Guest:lived with at the same time she was married to him.
Guest:And he was the father of my younger brother.
Guest:He was a very good father to his son.
Guest:But my older brother, who was from the same father I was, we were not his favorite people, let's say.
Marc:Oh, that's tough.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:Everybody's got something, right?
Marc:Yeah, for sure.
Guest:Everybody's got some kind of backstory.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I figure it's what you do with it and how you, you know, get conscious.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, absolutely.
Marc:I mean, being a human, there's nothing unusual about anybody's sort of tragedy or emotional difficulties in life.
Marc:I mean, yeah, like you said, everybody's got one.
Marc:And eventually, yeah, either you spend your life feeling sorry for yourself or you just realize it's just part of your life.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think of it like computer programming.
Guest:You know, you get the computer gets programmed.
Guest:And then at a certain age, you go, do I like my programming or do I want to reprogram this computer?
Guest:And then, you know, if you if you make the decision to straighten out all the bumpy parts and deal with them and go into therapy or whatever is your method.
Guest:Yeah, that's how you get conscious, you know.
Marc:So, yeah, you make different choices.
Marc:And then and then one day it all comes flushing back into your head and you have a minor nervous breakdown and then you just wait till it passes.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:You get over it.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, I remember that horrible thing.
Marc:Now I'm going to just have breakfast.
Marc:So.
Marc:So, OK, so did you leave Michigan like as soon as you could kind of deal?
Guest:On my 18th birthday, I left home.
Marc:So, yes.
Guest:That's when I was allowed.
Guest:Well, I left the house.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then within the year, I left Detroit and went to Texas, of all places.
Guest:Texas?
Yeah.
Guest:I was a model.
Guest:And somebody said to me, because I wanted to go somewhere.
Guest:I wanted to start my life.
Guest:I wanted to see the world.
Guest:And I was trying to figure out where to go.
Guest:And I wasn't ready for Hollywood or New York.
Guest:And Chicago just seemed like big Detroit.
Guest:So I was trying to find where to go.
Yeah.
Guest:Somebody said, oh, Neiman Marcus won the advertising award that year.
Guest:And we were reading about it in the models dressing room where I work.
Guest:And one of the other models said, that's where you should go, Edna.
Guest:You know, I was Edna then.
Guest:And I said, well, she said, Texas, they like your type there.
Guest:I said, what's my type?
Guest:And she said, the all-American girl.
Guest:And I got so happy that I had it typeed.
Guest:that I fit in somewhere, that they like me somewhere.
Guest:So I got in a Greyhound bus and went to Texas.
Marc:Where, Dallas?
Guest:Dallas and Fort Worth and Houston.
Guest:I worked in all three.
Marc:You did catalog modeling?
Guest:No.
Guest:You know, it was like in a hotel when the buyers come to town and see the lines.
Marc:Oh, right.
Guest:And then in a department store.
Marc:Everyone's going to Texas now and it bothers me.
Marc:You know, people are like, you got to go to Austin.
Marc:I'm like, it's still Texas.
Guest:But everybody loves Austin.
Marc:I know.
Marc:It's four blocks, though.
Marc:I mean, for how long?
Guest:And it seems to be, without getting into politics, it seems to be a little liberal enclave in the midst of Texas.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I call it the hipster Alamo.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Sounds good.
Marc:You're still surrounded by Texas.
Marc:Now, did you, well, I mean, was there anything in your mind that was left over from your experience in Texas that you took into the last picture show?
Marc:I imagine it was a different Texas.
Guest:Well, it was a different life, but it was very familiar.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It was very familiar.
Guest:I didn't have, when I left Detroit, I didn't have the idea I'm going to be an actress.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:My ambition was to see the world.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:And the more exotic, the better.
Guest:Anything that showed a different way of life than what I knew.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I saw the world as Texas for a while.
Guest:And then I was ready for New York.
Marc:And that was it.
Marc:So it was Texas and then New York.
Marc:That was the world that you saw.
Guest:At the moment.
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:But in the meantime, I've seen a lot of world.
Marc:I bet.
Marc:So when you get to New York, you model for a bit and then you do the play.
Marc:And then when do you start actually working with the actor studio?
Guest:That wasn't for.
Guest:See, I opened on Broadway in 1957.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:And I worked from then on as an actress doing like guest shots on TV.
Marc:Was all that New York?
Marc:Were they shooting all those shows in New York?
Marc:Were you going back and forth on propeller planes and stuff?
Guest:No, I shot New York for a while.
Guest:And well, I also wait a minute.
Guest:I worked in a nightclub as a chorus girl in Montreal.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:did your manager just your agent just get you that manager agent what are you talking about you know i was does anybody know how i can get a job right school for a while and but you'd already done broadway and you're doing you're doing a chorus girl gig in montreal no chorus girl was before broadway and that was when i was still a model and that was just a nightclub gig yeah and like behind a comedian or was it a show or was it a variety show or how does that work
Guest:It was, well, Dick Van Dyke was a comedian.
Guest:He was an act.
Guest:He had an act at that time where he worked with another guy and they mimed records like opera singers.
Guest:Right.
Guest:They were very funny.
Guest:So we had two dance numbers.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And...
Guest:One of them was Vic Marilyn and his Enchanted Strings.
Guest:And he was a violinist and he had a group of girls playing the violin.
Guest:And they played meditation from Thais.
Guest:And then we came on like ballerinas and we had fake white violins.
Guest:And we took their place and danced where they had actually been playing.
Guest:And then our other number was a gaucho act where we did a lot of stomping and clicking our fingers.
Guest:Black satin.
Marc:Did you know how to do these dances or you just learned them?
Guest:Well, I was a sort of a dancer.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I mean, I was on points when I was three.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was an acrobat.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I could, you know, I was a backline faker.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Nobody was going to have me be the star of the nightclub act.
Yeah.
Marc:But so that's a hell of an introduction in the show business.
Marc:Not everybody had the experience of doing something gritty.
Marc:There's something about nightclub work that's very gritty, and it introduces you to an element of show business that you never quite forget, and it really is a kind of...
Marc:and human.
Marc:There's something about being backstage at a nightclub.
Marc:When I do comedy now, I'm like, this is really what show business is about, is that moment before you go on stage.
Marc:I think that happens in theater, too, right?
Marc:Where you're just sort of like, I'm about to do it.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, absolutely.
Guest:I was so tense.
Guest:This is funny.
Guest:I was so tense when I went on the first time dancing in the number, and we took our entrance from the kitchen onto the stage.
Right.
Guest:When I smile to the whole thing, but my mouth is so dry that my lip stuck to my gum.
Guest:And when I got off stage, I couldn't make it go down.
Guest:One of the other girls grabbed a lemon from the bowl in the kitchen and said, suck on this.
Guest:And I sucked on the lemon and then I could get my lip down off my gum.
Yeah.
Marc:Thank God the kitchen was right there.
Guest:Thank God, really.
Guest:But I learned what to do in case your lip ever gets stuck on your gum.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And you learn how to, like, you know, take the stage.
Marc:I just think it's so funny that there, you know, this amazing thing that we do as entertainers, you always got to walk through the kitchen.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right before the big show, there's a guy at the dish machine spraying dishes, and you're like, how you doing?
Marc:Here we go.
Marc:I love that.
Marc:But I guess I'm just curious about, so you did some theater, and then you started to study because you wanted to know how to do it better on your own.
Marc:You just decided that there was a deeper thing you could do when the acting thing really started for you.
Marc:You felt like you wanted to train deeper?
Guest:I had a career from...
Guest:57 when I started to about the late middle, middle to late 60s.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I and I was cast in a movie called Goodbye, Charlie, starring Debbie Reynolds and Tony Curtis and Walter Matthau.
Guest:And I was also starring.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was a big technicolor glitzy kind of movie.
Guest:And I was sitting on stage.
Guest:And I said, well, this is it.
Guest:This is the big time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Next step is I'd be playing Debbie Vennel's part.
Guest:And this voice in my head that speaks to me occasionally said, I don't want it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Much to my surprise.
Guest:And I knew what I did want all of a sudden.
Guest:And this was in Hollywood.
Guest:And I packed up my kid and my dog and my bags and my piano and moved back to New York and went to Lee Strasburg and got into Hollywood.
Guest:The art of acting.
Marc:It's interesting because, like, you know, you obviously had the looks and a knack for being on stage and you had everything that you could do naturally.
Marc:But how did you know about about Straussburg?
Marc:I mean, why did you decide there?
Guest:I knew that there was actors like Marlon Brando and Jimmy Dean and Geraldine Page.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I got the feeling that they knew something I didn't know.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And, of course, I had heard of the Actors Studio and Lee Strasberg's reputation preceded him.
Guest:And they all were Actors Studio people.
Guest:They all studied with Strasberg.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I thought, that's where you go.
Guest:If you want to learn what it is they know, then I don't know.
Marc:And did you learn it?
I did.
Marc:How long did you did you train directly with Lee mostly?
Guest:And his wife, Paula, was her name.
Guest:I studied with both of them.
Guest:And Paula was a great teacher, too.
Guest:And then she died after a few years.
Guest:And I continued studying with Lee.
Guest:And I studied with Lee for the rest of his life into the 80s.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Now tell me what the, like, because, so that would have been, you know, 20 years or, what keeps growing?
Marc:You know, what do you keep going back for in terms of that particular method of acting to keep studying?
Marc:What do you keep studying with that man?
Marc:What do you keep finding?
Guest:Well, let me put it this way.
Guest:Horowitz, the pianist,
Guest:practice eight hours a day every day until he died yeah and actors mostly can't get to practice except when they get a job you know so it's like if horwood's only played the piano when he had a concert yeah so you need to practice any art form it doesn't matter what it is right and
Guest:That's what the Actors Studio offers.
Guest:It offers a stage, an audience, a place to bring in a piece of work and try and develop.
Guest:You know, you try and do something that you don't think you can do.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Try and take on a part that really sounds very hard.
Marc:So that that you've sort of you seem to do that a lot in your career.
Marc:Don't you challenge yourself?
Guest:I love challenges.
Guest:Yeah, I really do.
Guest:I think that's how you grow.
Guest:I don't think you grow without challenging yourself.
Marc:Yeah, no, absolutely.
Marc:And do you feel that there were times where you fell short?
Guest:Oh, of course.
Marc:Are there movies you've done where you're like, I don't need to see that again?
Guest:I was in a movie.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I think I'll not name it.
Marc:OK.
Guest:And when I saw it at the opening, I went, oh, my God, now I know how to play that part.
Marc:Oh, no.
Guest:I know what I didn't do.
Marc:You figured out the key.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:It was just one of the most horrible moments of my life when I realized I'm looking at my mistake on screen.
Marc:But no one else knew.
Marc:No, you were just you could you could have brought another dimension to it that you I know that feeling where you're like, I missed the key to that person.
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And and that's a bad feeling.
Marc:So do you find when you when you take on a role that you that's what you're looking for first is is some sort of portal into that person, some sort of basic sense of that person?
Guest:Well, yeah, some understanding of them as a human being and what makes them be the way they are, what they come from.
Guest:I always write a history of my character.
Marc:You do?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:That you sort of make up?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Backstory.
Guest:Backstory.
Guest:I write a backstory.
Yeah.
Guest:I make it up out of what the written character infers.
Guest:I keep saying, why would she do that?
Guest:Oh, she must have had this kind of experience.
Guest:So I write a biography.
Marc:Oh, that's amazing.
Marc:So you really go line for line.
Guest:I guess you could say that, but it's not so much that as why they do what they do.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Why they are the way they are.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What are the intentions?
Marc:Where do they come from?
Guest:What are the intentions?
Marc:Very good.
Guest:Kazan said, if you don't know your intention, don't walk on stage.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Was he at the studio when you were there?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Definitely.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, he started the studio.
Guest:He was the creator of the studio.
Marc:Wasn't it called something else in the beginning?
Marc:Actors Theater?
Marc:Or what was the one with Odette's?
Guest:That's the group theater.
Marc:Group theater, right.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And that's a separate organization, but Kazan directed there.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And when the group theater closed and he was established as a director, he found that he couldn't find any actors like he had at the group theater that had been trained by Strasburg.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So he started the actor's studio so that he could have actors developed for him to work with that group.
Marc:what he like what he was used to so he brought in lee then so he had a big plan you bet and it worked yeah was he uh it seems like you've like worked with a lot of formidable you know directing talents some charismatic people i mean was kazan intense was he like when you're around him did you feel the uh the sort of brilliance of that guy yeah but of course you feel the brilliance most when you see his work because right yeah you know in person he was he was a guy
Guest:Just a guy, you know, a nice guy.
Guest:I mean, you know, an interesting guy, but he was a guy.
Guest:But then when you saw his work, you went, wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Pretty special.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because as an actor, you don't really know what they're up to until you see it.
Marc:I mean, you know, the scene you're doing, but you don't know how it's all going to look put together.
Marc:That's for sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And now, would you say your biggest break, the first break was the last picture show in terms of movies?
Marc:Yeah, I would say that.
Marc:Bogdanovich is another guy.
Marc:He's kind of a lot to deal with.
Marc:Was he good to work with?
Guest:I loved him.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Smart.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Very smart.
Guest:Very tuned in.
Guest:Understands the process.
Guest:Knows what actors go through.
Guest:It's amazing how many directors don't know what goes on inside an actor.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I worked with a director who is a very big director.
Guest:Very successful.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Done really remarkable work.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In film, not a stage director.
Guest:And I told him about an event that happened internally when I was doing a play and what occurred and what I had to do inside to deal with what happened and so on and so forth.
Guest:And he said to me, you mean you can think of other things while you're acting?
Guest:I almost fell over.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Think of others.
Guest:My God, there's so much going on while you're acting, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, you're like stoking the furnace all the time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that a director could be that talented and successful and wonderful and not know that actors think of other things while they're acting.
Guest:It was like a miracle to me.
Guest:I couldn't imagine how they did it.
Marc:Did you tell him that?
Marc:No.
Marc:No.
Marc:No.
Marc:No.
Marc:And also I get the King of Marvin Gardens was sort of, that was a big movie.
Guest:Oh, it was ruined by the critics.
Guest:Ruined.
Guest:But it's a great movie.
Guest:I love that movie.
Guest:It's one of my favorites.
Marc:I just, I get sort of, I don't know if I'm nostalgic or I'm a fan or what, but I have to assume it was very exciting working with those guys in that era.
Marc:All of them.
Marc:Bob Rafelson and Nicholson and all of them.
Marc:And Bruce.
Marc:It must have been just.
Guest:You know, we were all friends.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And we were friends before we were famous.
Guest:Anybody.
Guest:And I mean, when when Bob Rafelson, who was a pal, you know, he and his wife is still a friend of mine.
Guest:When he cast me, Jack had been doing, you know, motorcycle movies.
Yeah.
Marc:For Corman?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And Bruce had done some...
Guest:good films, but there was, nobody was a big star.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so we were just into the work and we loved working together.
Guest:I would say I actually studied acting with Bruce.
Guest:Bruce was also a member of the actor's studio.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And he did private classes.
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:And he was a very important stimulation to me.
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:Cause yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:he he made me think about myself in a different way um you know with things he said to me that was very encouraging oh yeah so oh yeah yeah you seem to have a very clear memory of the whole sort of process all the things that happened in your life it's a it's a it's a real gift good for you you
Guest:Well, you know, I kept diaries my whole life.
Guest:And then I wrote a memoir called Lessons in Becoming Myself.
Guest:So I reread my diaries all the way back to, you know, the beginning, which was an astonishing experience.
Marc:Really?
Yeah.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because of the different emotional tones you had, how you reacted to things different.
Marc:It must be like looking at a different you somewhat.
Guest:I remember actually yelling at myself.
Guest:I'd read a page in my diary and I'd go, what are you crazy?
Guest:Wake up, girl.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then sometimes a few pages later, it looked like she heard me.
Marc:It's so great.
Marc:You kept diaries.
Marc:And it just all kind of dropped into the slots of your memory, I guess.
Marc:It reactivated it, huh?
Guest:Oh, yeah, because I'd forgotten a lot of stuff.
Guest:And then when I read it, I went, oh, my God, I forgot about that.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:It was a very enlightening and nourishing process to go through.
Guest:I recommend it to anybody.
Marc:I just watched Harry and Tonto again recently.
Marc:That's like a sweet movie.
Guest:Why did you watch that in particular?
Marc:I don't know, man.
Marc:I think it was because, you know, I had some weird moments, you know, during quarantine where you're like, you know, thinking about things.
Marc:And I watched a lot of old movies.
Marc:You know, I watched you in The Exorcist.
Marc:I watched Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore.
Marc:But I watched like for some reason I was curious about Art Carney and I wanted to see Art Carney.
Marc:I wanted to see that movie again.
Guest:But, you know, Art Carney and I knew each other from the Jackie Gleason show.
Guest:Did you know I was on the Jackie Gleason show?
Marc:I did.
Marc:I didn't know exactly how long or what you did there or how long that went on for.
Guest:I was one of the girls.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:And...
Guest:So I was on for a year and it was live every Saturday.
Guest:So I spent my Saturdays in the theater with Jackie Gleason and Art Carney and all these great comedians who would come in.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And take part in the show because Jackie wouldn't appear until showtime, actually dress rehearsal, but he wouldn't do the dress.
Guest:He would watch it from his dressing room and then he would do it live without having rehearsed.
Guest:Which always means that it would be God knows anything.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And wonderful.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So when they were timing for the dress rehearsal for his stand up spot, which is a five minute spot, they would have some other comedian like Jackie Leonard come in and do his five minute spot.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I got to sit in the audience and see all these great comedians and then do Jackie's five minute spot.
Guest:So it's one of the best trainings in in comedy.
Marc:Who do you remember seeing that was like just unbelievable?
Guest:Well, Jackie Leonard for one.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And Jack Carter.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Jack Carter.
Guest:And Jack Carson.
Guest:Three tracks.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But the thing is that Art Carney and I, you know, we would like go on trips with Jackie for some kind of charity.
Guest:There would be a parade in Boston and would be in convertibles waving at the people on the street.
Guest:So when...
Guest:So I'm in Harry and Tonto.
Guest:Art Carney wins the Oscar the same year I've won for Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I don't go because I'm on Broadway and same time next year.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So when I came into the theater the next night, the doorman says, I'm holding a call for you.
Guest:He hands me the phone on the wall and it's Jackie Gleason.
Guest:And he says, well, the alumni did pretty good last night.
Yeah.
Guest:That's one of my favorite moments hearing from him.
Marc:He was a kind of... I can't imagine what it would have been like to have known him at that time because he was so hilarious and such a huge personality.
Guest:He was an amazing person.
Guest:He was just amazing.
Guest:We would go bowling.
Guest:He'd take all the girls bowling and the other crew people on the show and...
Guest:He just was a riot.
Guest:I mean, I never bowled.
Guest:I didn't know from bowling.
Guest:And the first time I bowled, I got a strike, a spare and a strike.
Guest:And the guy on our team, who I don't remember who he was, called down several lanes to where Jackie is.
Guest:And he says, she just got a strike, a spare and a strike.
Guest:And she'd never bowled before.
Guest:And Jackie says, OK, that's it.
Guest:We're finished.
Guest:We're going out to dinner.
Guest:Took us all out to dinner.
Marc:That's funny.
Marc:So when you did Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore, like how you were offered to direct that.
Marc:Is that what I read?
Yeah.
Guest:Well, yeah, it was me or Marty Scorsese, and I think I chose Will.
Marc:How did that negotiation take place?
Marc:So how did you get that offer?
Marc:What was the story behind Alice?
Guest:I was shooting The Exorcist.
Guest:And the dailies were going back.
Guest:We were in New York.
Guest:Dailies were going to Hollywood where John Calley was the head of Warner Brothers.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he was looking at the dailies and he called my agent and said, we'd like to do another picture with Burstyn.
Yeah.
Guest:So they started sending me all the scripts that they had, that they owned.
Guest:And the parts were really boring.
Guest:They were the old fashioned idea of what a woman is.
Guest:Right.
Guest:A loyal wife, a hooker with a heart of gold.
Guest:a victim who gets raped.
Guest:And they didn't interest me.
Guest:And I said, I don't want to do any of this.
Guest:This was the beginning of the women's movement.
Guest:And I said, I want to do a character that's like the women I know.
Guest:So my agent found the script for Alice, sent it to me.
Guest:I liked it.
Guest:I sent it to them.
Guest:And I said, OK, we'll do it.
Guest:Who do you want to direct it?
Guest:And I said, somebody new and exciting.
Guest:I didn't know who that was.
Guest:And I called Francis Coppola.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I said, who's new and exciting?
Guest:And he said, look at a movie called Mean Streets.
Guest:And I looked at Mean Streets, which hadn't been released yet.
Guest:And I asked to meet Marty and he came into the office in Warner Brothers.
Guest:And I said, I want to do this movie from a woman's point of view.
Guest:What do you know about women?
Guest:He said, he said, nothing, but I'd like to learn.
Guest:And I just thought that was brilliant.
Guest:So I hired him.
Guest:And God, I mean, he's turned out to be the master of cinema.
Guest:I just love and respect him so much.
Guest:So there's nobody like him.
Marc:Such an active brain, that guy.
Guest:Oh, God.
Marc:It's like he's like on fire.
Marc:He's always going.
Marc:It's like so much going on up there.
Guest:And his eye, you know, the way he sees his vision.
Guest:So I'm just really grateful.
Marc:And did you find that he did listen to you and learn about women on that shoot?
Marc:Did he defer to you a lot in terms of the character and where to go?
Guest:i i wouldn't say defer as a as an operative verb for marty yeah but we work together right you know yeah he my image of the set when you enter the set marty set it's like entering the ring at a prize fight it's like it's all going to happen in this
Guest:Right.
Guest:And we get in and then we start mixing it up, you know, the other actor and Marty and the script and magic happens.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:Well, I imagine he's almost like sort of provides, he's like a battery, like he's the energy of...
Guest:I love that.
Guest:Oh, I love that.
Guest:I'm going to say it from now on when I talk about Marty.
Marc:Is it true?
Marc:Is it true?
Marc:It feels like that?
Marc:It's charged up.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:Did you have any idea The Exorcist would become what it became when you did that movie?
Guest:Well, I have to say that it was a bestselling book.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:There was a lot of talk about The Exorcist.
Guest:Oh, it's going to be a movie.
Guest:And, you know, it was it was a juicy part to get.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, actresses wanted that part.
Guest:Not all of them, apparently, but.
Guest:Some of us.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I was aware that it was going to get a lot of attention.
Guest:It was already getting a lot of attention.
Guest:And my memory of the opening was me coming down for breakfast, going in the kitchen, turning on the TV set.
Guest:And on the news, they're filming...
Guest:In Montreal, people lined up.
Guest:For hours sleeping and it was snowing and they were like four hours in line waiting for the movie theater to open.
Guest:And after watching a while, I remember saying out loud to my kitchen, actually to the television set in my kitchen.
Guest:People, people, it's a movie.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What are you doing?
Marc:You can go tomorrow.
Marc:You can wait a week.
Guest:Four hours in line for a movie.
Guest:I didn't get it.
Guest:So it was shocking how successful it was.
Guest:It was really shocking.
Yeah.
Marc:I can't imagine what that set was like.
Marc:I talked to Friedkin for two and a half hours.
Marc:And man, that guy's got like, you know, he sees symbols and everything and everything is connected.
Marc:And he's like, you know, he's got a kind of maniacal kind of creative mind.
Marc:I can't imagine what it would have been like to work with him at that time.
Guest:You know, my experience of.
Guest:Friedkin and Marty and Darren Aronofsky, Rafelson, Peter Bogdanovich is their partners, you know, like we're in this together.
Guest:We're creating this together.
Marc:Oh, that's good.
Marc:It's amazing.
Marc:Like you just I mean, you love to work.
Marc:It's because you did, you know, big Broadway shows.
Marc:You did the big movies.
Marc:You did you did a lot of TV even later in the you did TV.
Marc:It seems in the middle of doing big movies as well.
Marc:You just like to work.
Guest:I do.
Guest:I like, you know, my recipe for happiness is find a way to make a living at something that you'd be glad to do for free.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I feel that way about acting.
Guest:It's what I do.
Guest:It's what I can do.
Guest:It's what I like doing.
Marc:Is the city burning down over there?
Marc:What's happening?
Guest:I just live on a street that the fire engines and the ambulances like a lot.
Marc:They come and go.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:When you worked with Alan Alda, he seems like an amazing actor to work with.
Guest:He's an amazing actor because he's an amazing man.
Guest:He's a really fine human being.
Guest:I love him deeply.
Guest:He's really a good guy.
Marc:That movie, I think, is sort of a sweet movie.
Marc:It's a very interesting movie.
Marc:It must have been a great play.
Marc:I never saw it as a play the same time next year.
Guest:It was a great play.
Guest:Charles Grodin played it on Broadway.
Marc:So good, that guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You were in it with Grodin?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:I was sad that he passed away, and I was sad I didn't get to talk to him because there was really nobody like that guy.
Guest:Nobody liked that guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He's so special.
Guest:He did something I can't imagine any other actor ever considering doing.
Guest:When the movie was cast and they did not cast him,
Guest:And believe me, he was brilliant in that part.
Guest:Brilliant.
Guest:Funny and moving and deep and touching.
Guest:And he was wonderful.
Guest:And the cast, Alan, who is equally as magnificent, his reaction, he set up going on a talk show.
Guest:I don't remember if it was Jack Parr or Johnny Carson.
Guest:I don't remember who was around them.
Guest:He goes on the talk show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he tells them to tell him that Alan Alda got cast.
Guest:He goes on and he starts talking about the play.
Guest:And then he says, they're going to do a movie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:expect you know i'll be casting that i'll be doing and they say oh no they've cast it what do you mean they've cast it yeah the hell and all it's gonna go alan all is gonna play my part he just did this whole number i can they started quoting his reviews for the play yeah one of the reviews said hats in the air and he always loved to say that how are you tonight are we hats in the air
Guest:So he said, they said, hats in the air, explain on the show.
Marc:And he kept quoting his reviews.
Marc:He was so funny.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:I got to find that.
Marc:I got to dig that up.
Marc:That's got to be out there on YouTube.
Guest:Somewhere.
Guest:Because it's so...
Guest:He acted so hurt like he didn't know.
Guest:And how could they do it?
Guest:He didn't understand.
Marc:That's genius.
Marc:So funny, man.
Marc:He's so funny.
Guest:He was genius.
Guest:He was genius.
Guest:Eccentric.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, you seem like, you know, it's like even in relation to, you know, what you said publicly about working with Louis, who it seems to me that you have a sensitivity from life experience to people that are peculiar or may do bad things, but you don't necessarily dismiss them as bad people.
Marc:I thought that was a very nice way to handle that.
Guest:Well, Louis, my God, you know,
Guest:he's he's such a huge talent huge talent and you know he had this um problem he didn't he didn't deal with in a in a proper way that that's terrible but i'm not going to pretend that he's not
Guest:a major, major talent and a, and a wonderful man in other ways, you know?
Marc:Well, yeah, I mean, it takes, it takes a life of experience to, to bring that kind of empathy to these situations, you know, that, you know, that people are very quick to, you know, to react differently because they don't have necessarily the life experience to kind of contextualize it like that.
Guest:Well, part of my spiritual training was to not be judgmental and,
Guest:I asked my spiritual teacher at the time, I said, I don't understand.
Guest:If somebody hurts you, you don't want to be hurt again.
Guest:You judge what they did.
Guest:He said, I didn't say you shouldn't be discerning.
Guest:Right.
Guest:There's a difference being judgmental and discerning.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And certainly I discern that.
Guest:Louis had a problem that he didn't deal with enough to not have it anymore.
Guest:But I discern that it was a problem and a problem of a very talented and interesting and good man in other ways.
Marc:Yeah, get it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, and I just really appreciate that you still, in acting, there was something interesting in terms of what I've watched of your recent work in seeing this new movie.
Marc:There was a little bit of relief in the sense that this woman is sort of a...
Marc:A kind of a regular person with very, you know, you know, understandable struggles as somebody who is getting older and doesn't want to give into it.
Marc:Whereas, like, you know, I watched the last movie I watched you in, which was Pieces of a Woman.
Marc:And then when I think back to the Aronofsky film Requiring for a Dream, I mean, these are, you know, really hardcore, psychologically difficult, you know, troubled people in a way.
Marc:So there was part of me was sort of like, not only do you have an amazing range, but I was sort of relieved in a way that you could have a little fun or more fun with this.
Marc:But maybe you didn't have more fun with it.
Marc:Maybe you really enjoy like Requiem for a Dream.
Marc:That character is is hard to watch.
Marc:It's so intense.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:It's exhilarating to do stuff like that.
Guest:That's like running a really long race and getting there and doing what your job is and pulling it off.
Guest:Feels good.
Guest:It just feels really good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was happy at the end of every day.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Because I'm at the challenge.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And was Aronofsky great to work with?
Marc:I've talked to him, too.
Marc:He seems like it's hard for me to.
Marc:He seemed pretty intense, but like the movies are so intense.
Marc:I can't imagine what it'd be like to be on a set with him.
Guest:He's very intense.
Guest:He's very smart.
Guest:He's also very sensitive and kind and a loving person.
Guest:He was great to work with.
Guest:Again, I felt like we were a team.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:he's understanding he has depth you know it's great to work with people like that now i it was i was watching um you know the pieces of a woman film and that that was a that's a big part and i don't know how like i don't know how that movie did or how many people saw it but it's a disturbing movie and and you're great in it and in you know it's a that's a a sort of cold emotional characters it's a heavy um but did that like i was watching it and i did that it shot in montreal right
Marc:Because they kept saying Boston.
Marc:I'm like, I lived in Boston for years.
Marc:That looks like Canada.
Marc:Was it nice to be in Montreal again since the nightclub days?
Yeah.
Guest:Well, when I was in the dancing in the nightclub, I could walk home at night, actually at two in the morning.
Guest:But when I was there for pieces of a woman, it was cold.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We didn't go anywhere.
Yeah.
Guest:um i didn't walk outside a lot as a matter of fact they did the hotel i was in didn't have a gym so for exercise i walked the length of the floor i lived on all the way to the furthest stairway went down one stair and then walked all the way the length the other and i went all i lived on the eighth floor and i walked all the way down to the bottom and then i turned around and came back yeah that was the workout that was my workout yeah
Marc:And did you enjoy doing that film?
Guest:Well, I did because again, it was wonderful people.
Guest:Vanessa.
Guest:Kirby is just such a brilliant actress.
Marc:Crazy, right?
Marc:Wow.
Marc:That is so good.
Guest:She's so good.
Guest:And she's such a dear person.
Guest:I love her.
Guest:And.
Guest:The writer and director, Kata and Cornell, I loved working with.
Guest:It was a good experience.
Guest:As difficult as it was, it was a good experience.
Marc:In the new movie, like, did you have a relationship with Ann-Margaret?
Marc:Did you know her from back in the day?
Guest:We've worked together before.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Now, she says three films, but I can only think of two.
Guest:So, but, you know, I've been working for over 60 years.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, there's a lot of films in there.
Guest:I can't imagine what that first one was.
Guest:I've got to ask her the next time it's here.
Guest:We were in twice in a lifetime together.
Guest:She's...
Guest:stole gene hackman from me as i recall he was my husband and i think she got him as i recall so we didn't really have scenes together she was with yeah my husband how great is gene hackman totally great he's just totally great you know oh you could just watch him do anything i miss uh i miss seeing him and everything
Guest:Well, you know, he doesn't really like acting.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I guess he's up in Santa Fe writing a book or something.
Guest:Painting.
Marc:Oh, painting.
Marc:He's a painter.
Marc:He never liked acting or he just he just didn't want to do it anymore.
Guest:I didn't have an in-depth conversation with him, but I understand from what I hear that he doesn't really like it.
Guest:He doesn't like doing it.
Guest:But he's so good at it.
Guest:He's so good at it.
Guest:And, you know, here's an example of how he's good.
Guest:In the movie, he's my husband.
Guest:He broke up with me to go with Anne-Margaret.
Guest:And when he tells me that he's leaving me, he took off his ring, his wedding ring.
Guest:And when I saw that, for some reason, it just broke my heart.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I watched him do that, and it just killed me.
Guest:So then that was for the master shop.
Guest:So then when they did my close-up, and he's off camera,
Guest:He did that every time off camera.
Guest:He took off the ring.
Guest:Now, we didn't talk about it.
Guest:I didn't ask him for it.
Guest:I didn't say anything to him about it.
Guest:But he saw that it affected me.
Guest:And he did it when he didn't have to off camera.
Guest:And I was so moved by that.
Guest:It made me even more sorry to lose him as a husband.
Marc:Oh, it's a, it's a generous as an actor too, to do that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:Well, you know, like all these, we're talking about all these like huge films and these, they were all sort of led by men, directed by men.
Marc:Do you have a sense, you know, that the, that the industry is changing, you know, for the better with more, with, you know, women more involved in top positions and whatnot.
Guest:Yeah, you bet.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Women in top positions at studios, but also making an effort, you know, to,
Guest:Hire more women producers, more women writers, more women directors.
Guest:Oh, that's definitely happening, just as it is being conscious of diversity in terms of skin color.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, and background.
Guest:I mean, I think Hollywood is really making a real effort to not have it just be a bunch of white guys.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Thank God.
Guest:I mean, just look at that.
Guest:Nomadland.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:You know, that's such a gorgeous movie.
Guest:And it's so feminine.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But it's not just appealing to women.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You know.
Marc:Well, I think that's like this misconception about, like, you know, entitlement, you know, on behalf of white guys is that, you know, they feel like they're being pushed out where, you know, it's really what's happening is, no, the playing field is being leveled for as many different points of view, for as many different voices as possible.
Marc:So if they're threatened by that, maybe they just can't, maybe they've been getting away with something, which I think is really probably...
Marc:True in a lot of cases.
Guest:Well, I think there's I mean, I can understand it.
Guest:It's a question of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of years that being a white man was being in the position of power.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And, you know, I'm reading the Iliad right now.
Guest:And for a man to conquer another man, that means you get his wife.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know?
Guest:Property.
Guest:Women were property.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Almost like slaves.
Guest:And slaves were definitely, you know, one man kills another man, he gets the slaves, he gets the wife, whatever.
Marc:What compelled you to read the Iliad?
Guest:It's background for a piece that I'm working on that is a very difficult piece that I can't talk about yet because it's not real.
Guest:It's something that I hope is going to happen next year.
Marc:On stage or on film?
Marc:Stage?
Marc:Stage.
Marc:Well, that's exciting.
Marc:You're just busy.
Marc:And I enjoyed seeing you in this new movie.
Marc:I enjoy seeing you in every movie.
Marc:And I enjoy talking to you today.
Marc:And I appreciate it.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:It was nice talking to you, Mark.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Wasn't she amazing?
Marc:So much better memory than I have.
Marc:I don't know why I'm judging.
Marc:My memory's going, and as we get older, our memory goes.
Marc:But man, she was on it.
Marc:I should have asked her what she's doing to keep her memory together.
Marc:The movie is called Queen Bees.
Marc:It's now playing in theaters and on demand.
Marc:It stars Ellen Burstyn, who we just hung out with.
Marc:James Caan, Jane Curtin, and Anne Margaret.
Marc:And it's enjoyable.
Marc:My mother's going to love it.
Marc:Here's some guitar that was very frustrating to get to, even though it's not different than anything I've always played here.
Marc:Enjoy yourselves.
so so
Thank you.
Thank you.
.
.
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey and La Fonda.
Marc:Man, there's fucking cat angels everywhere.