Episode 1232 - Danny Elfman

Episode 1232 • Released June 3, 2021 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast how's it going how are you feeling are you feeling all right now what happens now

00:00:22Marc:What happens now?

00:00:23Marc:Do we go back to getting colds and flus and mild things?

00:00:28Marc:I mean, it was kind of amazing.

00:00:29Marc:For a year, we didn't get nothing.

00:00:31Marc:Got nothing.

00:00:32Marc:No colds, no flus, no bugs, no stomach things.

00:00:35Marc:Just a lot of mental anxiety.

00:00:37Marc:I became very intimate with all the psychosomatic symptoms that stress and panic and terror can cause in your body on a day-to-day basis.

00:00:47Marc:I still kind of have some of it, man.

00:00:49Marc:I still kind of have some of it.

00:00:51Marc:So I don't know where I left this, but I feel like I talked to you about it before.

00:00:54Marc:But the third watermelon, the watermelon, the melon of hope, the melon of hope turned out to be a good melon, turned out to be a solid melon.

00:01:05Marc:The color was not right.

00:01:07Marc:Right.

00:01:08Marc:But the texture and the sweetness was on the fucking money.

00:01:12Marc:So thank you for your concern.

00:01:13Marc:Thank you for your prayers, your thoughts.

00:01:17Marc:It worked out.

00:01:19Marc:That third melon that I bought in a panic, it turned out to be the best melon.

00:01:23Marc:It was a nice place to arrive.

00:01:25Marc:It was like, all right, that was the full arc.

00:01:28Marc:The bad melon, the override melon.

00:01:30Marc:What's in this one?

00:01:31Marc:Give it a few days.

00:01:33Marc:Sit with it.

00:01:34Marc:Look at it.

00:01:35Marc:Dream about it.

00:01:37Marc:Slice it up.

00:01:39Marc:Perfect.

00:01:40Marc:How often does that happen?

00:01:42Marc:Closure.

00:01:44Marc:Danny Elfman is on the show today, and it was exciting to talk to him.

00:01:48Marc:He is probably the most prolific film score composer we've ever had on the show, maybe of all time.

00:01:56Marc:He's done scores for more than 100 movies.

00:01:59Marc:We'll talk about several of them, many of them, and also for TV shows, stage productions.

00:02:05Marc:And concert halls.

00:02:06Marc:He was also in the art rock band Oingo Boingo.

00:02:09Marc:I'm on the outside.

00:02:10Marc:I'm on the outside.

00:02:12Marc:I'm on the outside now.

00:02:14Marc:This is where it all begins.

00:02:17Marc:On the outside looking in.

00:02:19Marc:He's got his first solo album in 37 years.

00:02:24Marc:It's coming out next week.

00:02:25Marc:That's why he's here.

00:02:26Marc:The only reason I know that song is because my buddy Damon in high school...

00:02:32Marc:was into Oingo Boingo none of us knew about Oingo Boingo he had that one record and he would play it in the car the cassette tape all the time and that's how I knew about Oingo Boingo was from Damon I wonder how Damon's doing does anyone know who's got eyes on Damon anyone got eyes on Damon Milet anybody Damon Milet

00:02:52Marc:Please, could somebody get back to me about Damon?

00:02:56Marc:Thank you.

00:02:56Marc:Thank you very much.

00:02:58Marc:Been doing the comedy.

00:02:59Marc:Been going at it.

00:03:00Marc:Been hammering away.

00:03:01Marc:My tone's a little intense.

00:03:03Marc:It's a little dark.

00:03:05Marc:It's a little aggravated, but not too much.

00:03:08Marc:But it seems to be... It feels like my anger is not really that threatening or off-putting anymore.

00:03:15Marc:I must have been humbled enough...

00:03:18Marc:by the big wheel of life to be cranky without being jarring.

00:03:25Marc:I've waited my whole life to be humbled this much by life to be aggravated and still kind of fun.

00:03:33Marc:I can be pretty consistently funny on purpose.

00:03:38Marc:And that has been my life goal, folks.

00:03:40Marc:What do you do for a living?

00:03:42Marc:I'm pretty consistently funny on purpose.

00:03:46Marc:Most of the time, not funny.

00:03:48Marc:Engaging, not funny.

00:03:51Marc:Charismatic, perhaps, not funny.

00:03:55Marc:Interesting, maybe.

00:03:57Marc:Compelling, sometimes.

00:04:00Marc:Funny, when I want to be on purpose.

00:04:03Marc:I've got that skill now.

00:04:05Marc:I've got it.

00:04:07Marc:Occasionally, I think about guns.

00:04:11Marc:Do I need a gun?

00:04:13Marc:I've talked about this before.

00:04:14Marc:I don't I don't know.

00:04:15Marc:Is this an old guy thing?

00:04:16Marc:Is this an L.A.

00:04:18Marc:thing?

00:04:18Marc:Is this a is this an end of the world thing?

00:04:20Marc:Yeah, there's guns around.

00:04:23Marc:Do I need one?

00:04:24Marc:And then what do I get?

00:04:25Marc:Like, I don't want a pistol.

00:04:27Marc:I thought maybe a shotgun because if I have a shotgun and someone comes in to take me out, I can be at the top of the stairs with my shotgun, a pump shotgun.

00:04:37Marc:With a shotgun, you're going to hit something.

00:04:41Marc:Something you're going to get.

00:04:42Marc:Your odds are improved.

00:04:44Marc:But now I'm talking about taking a human life.

00:04:47Marc:Is that something I want to do?

00:04:48Marc:All it can do is enable me to go down shooting.

00:04:51Marc:And then I started to think about it.

00:04:53Marc:Isn't that what it's always about?

00:04:55Marc:When you really think about old guys with guns, just think about who they are.

00:05:00Marc:Think about their life.

00:05:01Marc:Think about the deep sort of weird burning ember of rage at the core of their being, existentially speaking.

00:05:08Marc:How many fucking people really have their shit together enough to surrender to the inevitable?

00:05:13Marc:with a certain amount of peace of mind.

00:05:15Marc:How many?

00:05:16Marc:Not many.

00:05:17Marc:How many people know they're going to die and are okay with dying because they've lived life to their fullest and they understand as rational people that we as animals die and that's the end of it?

00:05:29Marc:How many?

00:05:30Marc:Not many.

00:05:31Marc:How many people are out there with these fucking unresolved problems, with these chips on their shoulders, with these things they never did, with these...

00:05:40Marc:poorly parented insides that are full of rage and hate and objectification and fucking snot and fucking fire what about those people 60 70 80 year olds with just a fury inside them and a brain slowly going blank being filled with exciting garbage meant to create more rage inside them but for specific reasons what about those people

00:06:07Marc:Those people, most people, most men want to go down shooting.

00:06:14Marc:They don't care at what.

00:06:16Marc:They don't care at who.

00:06:18Marc:They don't have to have a reason.

00:06:20Marc:They just want to feel it.

00:06:22Marc:They just want to feel the firepower of going down shooting.

00:06:28Marc:How is that a solution for humans in this fucking world, this country?

00:06:33Marc:That's what it is.

00:06:35Marc:People who kill people, then kill themselves.

00:06:37Marc:That's how they make sense of it.

00:06:40Marc:Broken, angry rage vessels.

00:06:43Marc:How do we fix it?

00:06:45Marc:Huh?

00:06:45Marc:How do we fix it?

00:06:47Marc:See, I can be funny on purpose.

00:06:49Marc:That was hilarious.

00:06:53Marc:I just decided out loud that I'm not getting a gun.

00:06:57Marc:Thanks for helping out.

00:06:58Marc:What the fuck?

00:07:00Marc:Help me.

00:07:00Marc:I'm not getting it.

00:07:02Marc:I'm not getting a shotgun.

00:07:03Marc:I'm not.

00:07:04Marc:It can go nowhere good.

00:07:07Marc:Yeah.

00:07:08Marc:And all of the above.

00:07:09Marc:Not getting it.

00:07:12Marc:A, you kill somebody.

00:07:14Marc:B, you get killed.

00:07:16Marc:C, you kill yourself.

00:07:18Marc:D, all of the above.

00:07:21Marc:Don't eat it.

00:07:22Marc:Don't eat the barrel.

00:07:24Marc:See?

00:07:25Marc:See where the brain goes?

00:07:26Marc:I'm not that guy.

00:07:27Marc:I'm not going to go out like that.

00:07:30Marc:Danny Elfman, his new album is called Big Mess.

00:07:33Marc:It's out next Friday, June 11th.

00:07:35Marc:You can get it wherever you get music.

00:07:36Marc:He's also bringing back the live Nightmare Before Christmas stage concert this year.

00:07:40Marc:That's on Friday, October 29th at Bank of California Stadium.

00:07:45Marc:Tickets are on sale now.

00:07:47Marc:And also, there's a point during this talk where we're talking about David Bowie's Scary Monsters.

00:07:52Marc:And he says Adrian Ballou played guitar on it.

00:07:54Marc:And I'm pretty sure it's Robert Fripp.

00:07:56Marc:I should have stuck by my guns.

00:07:57Marc:I should have done the research in the moment.

00:07:59Marc:But he was pretty committed to Adrian Ballou.

00:08:01Marc:But I knew it was Fripp in my heart.

00:08:03Marc:And it is Fripp.

00:08:05Marc:It is.

00:08:05Marc:I'm not saying this to undermine Danny in any way.

00:08:08Marc:I just want to make sure that the information is out there for those of you who need to know that.

00:08:13Marc:Because I remember being excited about it when I was in high school.

00:08:16Marc:And Scary Monsters came out and Robert Fripp was on it because somebody had turned me on to Fripp by that point, not King Crimson, solo Fripp.

00:08:23Marc:And I knew Fripp was an interesting guitar player.

00:08:25Marc:And man, is Scary Monsters a good album.

00:08:28Marc:So there you go.

00:08:29Marc:Just selling a couple of records for David Bowie on my way to talking to Danny Elfman, which I will do now, right now.

00:08:42Marc:All right, so now that we're on the mic, tell me about Pakistan.

00:08:50Guest:Oh, man, it was great.

00:08:51Guest:You know, I don't travel as much as I used to, but this was right during when the Taliban, you know, was before 2001.

00:08:58Guest:It was late 90s.

00:08:59Guest:So what compelled you to do?

00:09:01Guest:Is that a vacation?

00:09:02Guest:Yeah, that's my idea of a vacation.

00:09:05Guest:And I have a neighbor that lived up the block.

00:09:08Guest:I lived in Topanga Canyon.

00:09:09Guest:And we kind of bonded because both of us back in the 70s, like when we were really young, I spent a year in West Africa.

00:09:18Guest:And he spent this year, same age, traveling through Afghanistan.

00:09:23Guest:And so we kind of took these similar but different trips.

00:09:26Guest:And I went back only once.

00:09:27Guest:But he started going back regularly.

00:09:29Guest:And now, you know, he became an importer of fabrics.

00:09:34Marc:Yeah, I mean, I can understand that journey, those guys who import, export.

00:09:38Guest:Well, he'd always said, you've got to come along with me once because I was so interested.

00:09:42Guest:And one year I said, you know what?

00:09:43Guest:I'm going to do it.

00:09:44Guest:Wow.

00:09:45Guest:And it was great.

00:09:46Guest:Yeah?

00:09:47Guest:Oh, my God.

00:09:48Guest:But it wasn't frightening?

00:09:49Guest:A little bit.

00:09:50Guest:Yeah.

00:09:50Guest:But, you know, who gives a fuck?

00:09:52Guest:Yeah.

00:09:52Guest:It's just like, this is, like, cool.

00:09:55Guest:And, you know, the Afghani people, I mean, the thing that I understand is that they're so warm.

00:10:02Guest:If you felt like you were in danger, you know, you could almost go to anybody's house and knock on it and say, I need your protection.

00:10:08Guest:Really?

00:10:09Guest:And they're really compelled to take you in.

00:10:12Marc:Well, they've also been dealing with whatever's terrifying you for centuries.

00:10:17Guest:Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:10:18Guest:And they have a saying called the guest before Allah.

00:10:20Guest:And, you know, I would talk with people and my friend would go, you know, he was probably Taliban.

00:10:29Guest:But their attitude was like...

00:10:31Guest:We're very much against your George Bush, your government.

00:10:35Guest:Yeah.

00:10:35Guest:But you are welcome here.

00:10:37Marc:You seem okay.

00:10:38Guest:Well, but not even seem okay.

00:10:40Guest:You don't represent them.

00:10:41Guest:Right.

00:10:42Guest:And they differentiate the two.

00:10:44Guest:Uh-huh.

00:10:45Guest:Like, we're down with your government, but you're our guest, you're here, you're our guest, and you're welcome.

00:10:49Marc:So they would know by mostly because you're not wearing a uniform.

00:10:54Guest:I can't even say how they would know.

00:10:56Guest:I think it was just the attitude of you're our guest and we welcome you.

00:11:00Guest:Yeah.

00:11:00Guest:I never felt threatened.

00:11:01Guest:I have these great photos.

00:11:03Guest:Once I was sitting in a little cafe and-

00:11:05Guest:People love their pictures.

00:11:07Guest:I had two cameras.

00:11:08Guest:I looked like a life photographer.

00:11:10Guest:It was like these two big fucking cameras.

00:11:13Guest:And the guy taps me on the shoulder next to me and he goes, you know, it's the universal language for click, click.

00:11:20Guest:And as I pull up my camera, he opens up his vest and he's got like bullets on both sides.

00:11:26Guest:And he gave me a big smile.

00:11:28Guest:Like what year was that?

00:11:29Guest:Oh, I don't know, 90-something, late 90s.

00:11:32Guest:How long were you there?

00:11:33Guest:I was there for about a month.

00:11:34Guest:Oh, that's how you travel?

00:11:35Marc:You go for a month?

00:11:38Marc:You know, when I can.

00:11:39Guest:When I look at your, like, when I look at your output, I'm like, where did you find a month?

00:11:43Guest:I mean, maybe it was three weeks, but, you know, it's like when I, I was always wired for if I had however many weeks off, I'd go somewhere.

00:11:51Guest:When did you go to Africa?

00:11:52Guest:Oh, I was 18.

00:11:53Guest:And you just went?

00:11:55Guest:Yeah, yeah, I just went.

00:11:56Guest:What was the impetus?

00:11:58Guest:Well, I mean, I wanted to travel around the world.

00:12:00Guest:Yeah.

00:12:01Guest:And so me and my buddy, we spent like a year planning this trip through North Africa to India, Asia, work our way back to Los Angeles.

00:12:08Guest:After high school?

00:12:09Guest:Yeah.

00:12:10Guest:Yeah.

00:12:11Guest:But we took a wrong turn.

00:12:12Guest:That's the thing.

00:12:13Guest:It's like my whole life has been a series of crazy coincidences.

00:12:16Guest:Yeah.

00:12:16Guest:So what I didn't account is that I would land in Paris first.

00:12:20Guest:Yeah.

00:12:21Guest:And my brother played with this, he was a drummer with a musical theatrical troupe called Le Grand Magic Circus.

00:12:27Guest:Here?

00:12:28Guest:In Paris.

00:12:28Guest:Oh, in Paris.

00:12:29Guest:And I happened to just pick up a violin before that trip, my first instrument ever.

00:12:34Guest:Yeah.

00:12:35Guest:And I was practicing it, and I came out one day, and my brother was sitting there with Jérôme Savary, the director, and he goes, hey, Little Red, he called me.

00:12:42Guest:He says, you know, you're not bad.

00:12:44Guest:You come play with us.

00:12:45Guest:Yeah.

00:12:45Guest:I go, really?

00:12:46Guest:I've only been playing like four or five months.

00:12:49Guest:And he goes, nah, you're good enough.

00:12:51Guest:And I toured with them for a couple of weeks.

00:12:53Guest:And now my friend- What kind of music was that?

00:12:56Guest:It was like crazy, I don't know, crazy French music.

00:13:01Guest:yeah something cabaret uh-huh tunes was it so it was like chaotic yeah really chaotic right the shows were chaotic yeah like 20 people on stage right right and uh and audiences would get rowdy and big theaters and every now and then there'd be like some shit would happen and chairs would start flying and my brother would always like grab me get my get your violin out of here get your violin out of here

00:13:27Guest:What year is this?

00:13:28Guest:1970.

00:13:29Guest:Oh, so things were crazy then.

00:13:32Guest:Whoa.

00:13:33Guest:Yeah.

00:13:34Guest:Yeah.

00:13:34Guest:Pretty crazy.

00:13:35Guest:And then rather than going through North Africa onto Asia, I ended up in the Canary Islands and I got really interested through friends I made with a country called Mali.

00:13:44Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:13:44Guest:And the art and the fetish things that I saw.

00:13:48Guest:And suddenly, the next thing I know, we're on a different trip.

00:13:51Guest:Right.

00:13:51Guest:We go to Mauritania and then head down to Mali.

00:13:54Guest:And I lived in Mali for a while.

00:13:55Marc:Yeah.

00:13:55Marc:So this was just an adventure you were on, and your brother was already a traveling musician?

00:14:00Guest:He was already into theater and music.

00:14:03Guest:He was like a conga drummer.

00:14:05Guest:And you grew up here, right?

00:14:06Guest:Yeah.

00:14:07Guest:Wow.

00:14:07Guest:Los Angeles.

00:14:08Guest:So that whole trip took a year.

00:14:10Guest:I never got to Asia, India, and...

00:14:13Guest:You know, the Nepal, like I planned.

00:14:16Guest:But I ended up in Uganda when Idi Amin was in power.

00:14:21Guest:Oh, wow.

00:14:21Guest:And just missed meeting him by like a minute.

00:14:23Guest:How would you have met him?

00:14:24Guest:Because I was going to Murchison Falls and I was camping out.

00:14:29Guest:Yeah.

00:14:29Guest:I couldn't stay in the actual lodge.

00:14:31Guest:But he was just leaving where he had done like some dinner or something.

00:14:34Guest:And all these cars were driving off.

00:14:36Guest:And they told me, he says, oh...

00:14:38Guest:President Amin just left.

00:14:41Guest:You just missed him.

00:14:43Guest:Was it better off probably?

00:14:44Guest:You know, this is relevant to now because the way people spoke of Idi Amin at that time, they didn't believe that he was going to do the shit he was going to do.

00:14:55Guest:This was the beginning of his reign.

00:14:58Guest:I would be in a taxi and I'd say, what do you, you know, what's with Idi Amin?

00:15:00Guest:He outlawed miniskirts.

00:15:02Guest:Yeah.

00:15:02Guest:And he goes, oh, dude, you don't take it seriously.

00:15:04Guest:He just says stuff.

00:15:05Guest:He just says stuff.

00:15:06Guest:And just now it echoes of Donald Trump.

00:15:09Guest:Sure.

00:15:09Guest:He just says stuff.

00:15:10Guest:Yeah.

00:15:11Guest:You know, you ask people that are Trumps, what he just said, what the fuck?

00:15:13Guest:He just said this thing.

00:15:15Guest:Right.

00:15:15Guest:No, no, no.

00:15:15Guest:He's just talking.

00:15:16Guest:He just said stuff.

00:15:17Guest:The next thing you know, they're swattering people.

00:15:18Guest:Exactly.

00:15:18Guest:In the streets.

00:15:19Guest:It's just like, that's how authoritarian.

00:15:22Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:15:23Guest:They're clowns initially.

00:15:25Guest:And they called him the clown.

00:15:27Guest:Yeah.

00:15:27Guest:I mean.

00:15:28Guest:Buffoons.

00:15:28Marc:Buffoon.

00:15:29Marc:Isn't that wild?

00:15:30Marc:He was considered a buffoon.

00:15:32Marc:And that's what makes him attractive to everybody.

00:15:34Marc:Yeah.

00:15:34Marc:Is that like, you know, they're kind of entertained.

00:15:36Marc:They're entertained.

00:15:38Guest:He says crazy stuff, but he won't do any of that.

00:15:40Marc:So when you went down there, like I'm trying to picture like I always like talking to people that grew up in L.A.

00:15:46Marc:at that time because you were conscious in the 60s.

00:15:50Guest:Well, yeah, I mean, that's a subjective term, isn't it?

00:15:57Guest:Yeah.

00:15:59Guest:I was somewhat conscious.

00:16:01Marc:But what part of town did you grow up?

00:16:03Marc:Baldwin Hills.

00:16:04Marc:Oh, that's interesting.

00:16:05Marc:Yeah.

00:16:05Marc:So it was sort of like, it's a black neighborhood now primarily, isn't it?

00:16:09Guest:Yeah.

00:16:09Guest:I mean, I went to a mostly black school, Audubon in Crenshaw area.

00:16:13Guest:That's where I went to middle school.

00:16:14Marc:Yeah.

00:16:15Marc:And your parents were what?

00:16:16Marc:School teachers.

00:16:18Marc:Oh.

00:16:19Marc:So there was a premium put on education in the house?

00:16:22Guest:Of course, I never went to college.

00:16:24Guest:I was like, every school teacher's worst nightmare.

00:16:27Guest:Yeah.

00:16:28Guest:I'm glad my father lived long enough to see me sell out the Universal Amphitheater.

00:16:34Guest:Yeah.

00:16:34Guest:Like he did something.

00:16:35Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:16:36Guest:Where was he from here?

00:16:38Guest:He was from Kenosha, Wisconsin and moved out here after the war, World War II.

00:16:42Guest:Huh.

00:16:43Guest:And yeah, and became a school teacher.

00:16:46Guest:Wow.

00:16:47Guest:Wisconsin.

00:16:48Guest:Kenosha.

00:16:49Marc:How did his family get there?

00:16:51Marc:How did he get there?

00:16:52Marc:Yeah.

00:16:53Marc:Via Poland.

00:16:54Marc:Yeah.

00:16:54Marc:Huh.

00:16:55Guest:So he was part of the Midwestern Jews.

00:16:59Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:17:00Marc:Yeah.

00:17:00Guest:You know, his father, because I remember his parents didn't speak a lot of English.

00:17:04Guest:Yeah.

00:17:05Guest:So I don't remember them super well, because obviously I didn't speak Yiddish.

00:17:09Guest:Yeah.

00:17:10Guest:He never spoke that.

00:17:11Guest:Right.

00:17:11Guest:But they spoke Polish and Yiddish and probably Russian and probably three other languages.

00:17:16Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:17:16Marc:Right, sure.

00:17:17Marc:Yeah.

00:17:17Marc:Because like Dylan, the Zimmermans, they're Minneapolis, what's that, Minnesota Jews.

00:17:25Marc:Right, right.

00:17:26Marc:I think there was just jobs and farming and I don't know what.

00:17:29Guest:Yeah.

00:17:29Guest:So Kenosha, I think he was actually in the furniture business, retail furniture in Kenosha, if I recall correctly.

00:17:36Guest:And my guess is that my father moved to Los Angeles first.

00:17:40Guest:Yeah.

00:17:40Guest:I learned later that he wanted to be a big band trumpet player.

00:17:44Guest:Now, as a kid, I never even knew he played trumpet.

00:17:46Guest:Really?

00:17:47Guest:I discovered it later.

00:17:48Guest:He never played when you were growing up?

00:17:50Guest:Never played and never even brought it up.

00:17:52Guest:But I think then his parents probably came out after he did and settled out here.

00:17:57Guest:and you never knew he was a trumpet player no i found the trumpet in the closet and he's like oh yeah i used to play it my mom said he was really good oh wow and he let it go he put it down yeah he put it down and he had no regrets huh he was not a frustrated musician or anything comfortable people yeah and you have one brother one brother yeah and you guys just were like tearing it up in los angeles tearing it tearing each other up

00:18:20Marc:But like, you sort of like, because I always picture the 60s in Los Angeles as being, were you on the periphery of show business at all?

00:18:28Marc:Did you travel?

00:18:28Marc:No.

00:18:29Marc:But I mean, in high school and stuff, what were you guys doing?

00:18:32Guest:Well, high school was a whole different, see, everything up to high school was one life.

00:18:35Guest:Yeah.

00:18:36Guest:Because I grew up, lived in Baldwin Hills.

00:18:37Guest:Yeah.

00:18:38Guest:no showbiz nothing you know it it wasn't until my parents moved uh to west la and that's where you started to to meet the people and that's where i met i understood oh what a dysfunctional family means you know it's like okay they live in malibu dysfunctional yeah i grew up in a real normal boring middle class household yeah and when does like when does music start to come in not till high school and what did it look like

00:19:04Guest:It was like pure luck.

00:19:06Guest:Yeah.

00:19:07Guest:The first friends I met, group of friends, were like an arty crowd.

00:19:13Guest:And this is like 60s arty.

00:19:16Guest:Well, this would have been like, yeah, I mean like 68, 69.

00:19:21Guest:And a lot of them played.

00:19:24Guest:One friend was already a trumpet player doing avant-garde composition.

00:19:30Guest:He turned me on to Stravinsky.

00:19:31Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:19:32Guest:Another friend, crazy drummer.

00:19:34Guest:Yeah.

00:19:35Guest:Willie.

00:19:35Guest:Yeah.

00:19:36Guest:And, you know, we'd stay up all night getting stoned, listening to jazz and like turn me between jazz and Stravinsky between Miles Coltrane and Stravinsky.

00:19:47Guest:Let's turn my life around completely.

00:19:48Guest:And reconfigured your brain.

00:19:51Guest:Totally.

00:19:52Guest:Yeah.

00:19:52Guest:Configured my brain.

00:19:54Guest:I like got out of rock and pop.

00:19:56Guest:100%.

00:19:57Guest:Were you in it?

00:19:58Guest:Well, I mean, I listened to the same stuff other kids did.

00:20:00Guest:You know, I'd grow up in the Beatles and Stones and all that stuff.

00:20:03Guest:But suddenly, no, I just want the new Miles Davis.

00:20:08Guest:I want to hear what Eric Dolphy is doing.

00:20:10Guest:So that became, suddenly I became interested in music only because all my friends did.

00:20:15Guest:Right.

00:20:16Guest:And was your brother playing at this point?

00:20:18Guest:Yeah.

00:20:18Guest:He was a conga drummer.

00:20:19Guest:A conga drummer.

00:20:20Guest:Yeah, and he was like cool.

00:20:21Guest:He was like a hippie.

00:20:22Guest:Yeah.

00:20:23Guest:And living up in Haight-Ashbury, had a little clothing store and playing drums.

00:20:27Guest:How old and much older is he?

00:20:29Marc:Four and a half, four years.

00:20:30Marc:So you had that like sort of a guy who was a...

00:20:34Marc:Yeah, with the machete in front of you, at least cutting the way into the counterculture.

00:20:39Guest:Well, what he taught me was how to keep my head down.

00:20:42Guest:Huh.

00:20:43Guest:You know, that's the second, third child.

00:20:46Guest:You know, he caught all the shit.

00:20:47Guest:Right, right.

00:20:48Guest:You know.

00:20:48Guest:Yeah.

00:20:49Guest:Getting stoned, long hair, the whole thing caught the shit, caught the shit, caught the shit.

00:20:52Guest:Yeah.

00:20:53Guest:And I learned, all right, keep your grades good and just lie through your teeth and smile.

00:21:00Guest:Everything's fine.

00:21:02Guest:You'd be the good kid.

00:21:03Guest:Honey, you don't smoke.

00:21:04Guest:oh no mom i'd be so fucked up saying i was so good at like covering it up i swear to god i didn't tell her until i was 40 yeah how much drugs i used to do you know back in high school and she was still upset oh my god i failed as a mother i said mom i'm doing great i mean look i'm i've got a you know i've got a great career but i failed you you were

00:21:27Guest:She was still like... They still get hurt.

00:21:29Guest:Take it personally.

00:21:30Guest:And she says, why didn't you tell me?

00:21:32Guest:I said, because of this.

00:21:33Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:21:33Guest:You see how you're reacting 25 years later?

00:21:36Guest:Could you imagine how you would have reacted then?

00:21:39Guest:I was protecting you.

00:21:40Guest:Right.

00:21:40Guest:Our job as kids growing up was to protect our parents.

00:21:44Guest:From who we really were.

00:21:46Guest:Exactly.

00:21:47Guest:Yeah.

00:21:48Guest:The reality was just too hard for them, and we had to protect them.

00:21:53Marc:So when you met these people, when your mind was being blown by music, when did you start playing?

00:22:00Guest:Well, not until my last year when I was going off to my trip.

00:22:03Guest:The fiddle?

00:22:04Guest:Yeah, I decided to pick up a fiddle and take it with me on the trip.

00:22:07Marc:That was your first instrument?

00:22:08Marc:Yeah.

00:22:09Marc:Because I was trying to figure it out after looking at all I looked at.

00:22:12Marc:What do you actually play?

00:22:13Marc:No, I... Well...

00:22:16Guest:What do I play well?

00:22:17Guest:Nothing.

00:22:19Guest:I was totally always a jack of all trades, master of none.

00:22:23Guest:I could pick up any instrument and learn to play something on it.

00:22:26Guest:So for me, at that point, I was obsessed with Django Reinhardt and Stefan Grappelli.

00:22:31Guest:That was his violinist, the jazz violinist from the 30s.

00:22:34Guest:And so I wanted to play like Stefan Grappelli.

00:22:36Guest:And so when I started the Mystic Knights, when I got back from Africa...

00:22:40Guest:That's what I did.

00:22:41Guest:I actually played Django tunes.

00:22:43Guest:In the Mystic Nights, it was a theater group?

00:22:46Guest:Kind of a weird cabaret theater group, yeah.

00:22:49Guest:Multimedia.

00:22:51Marc:Where was that at?

00:22:52Guest:That was all over San Francisco, Los Angeles, bouncing between the two.

00:22:56Guest:And did they have a headquarters, like a one place?

00:23:00Guest:L.A., yeah.

00:23:00Guest:You know, my loft, I had an old loft in Venice.

00:23:03Guest:Oh, you did?

00:23:04Guest:We rehearsed there, yeah.

00:23:05Guest:For like a nickel a month?

00:23:07Guest:Basically, and then I got my first place back on the east side again.

00:23:11Guest:Yeah.

00:23:12Guest:Rough area.

00:23:13Guest:Yeah.

00:23:14Guest:And, I mean, I remember it was like a big fucking loft with a parking lot in the duplex, and it was 5,000 down, down payment, which I borrowed from my parents.

00:23:23Guest:Yeah.

00:23:24Guest:Paid them back later.

00:23:25Guest:Right.

00:23:25Guest:But we rehearsed there for years.

00:23:27Guest:How many people in this ensemble?

00:23:29Guest:Well, it was up to 12, actually.

00:23:30Guest:Yeah.

00:23:30Guest:Now, did your brother have anything to do with this?

00:23:32Guest:He started with us, and then he went off to make this movie, Forbidden Zone.

00:23:36Guest:And then I went off with the Mystic Knights and kind of turned them into a more musical version of what we were.

00:23:42Guest:Everybody had to play three instruments.

00:23:45Guest:So we could triple as a brass instrument.

00:23:48Guest:Ensemble, a string ensemble, or a percussion ensemble.

00:23:52Guest:And what year was this?

00:23:54Guest:Oh, 72 through 78.

00:23:57Marc:Really?

00:23:58Marc:Yeah.

00:24:00Marc:So you were a unique entity.

00:24:02Marc:No one was really doing what you were doing.

00:24:04Marc:No, we were freaks.

00:24:05Marc:Total freaks.

00:24:06Marc:And where did you fit into the music landscape?

00:24:10Guest:We didn't fit into anything.

00:24:11Guest:I didn't even listen to music.

00:24:13Guest:In the 70s, I wouldn't listen to anything recorded after 1938.

00:24:16Guest:So you were like a full-on old-timey nerd.

00:24:20Guest:Yeah.

00:24:21Guest:In my head...

00:24:23Guest:I lived a life that went between Harlem and Paris, 1931.

00:24:28Guest:Wow.

00:24:29Marc:And the other guys are like that, too?

00:24:31Marc:They got pulled into it.

00:24:33Marc:So you're only playing Django Reinhardt tunes?

00:24:35Guest:Well, Cab Calloway.

00:24:37Guest:Yeah, okay.

00:24:37Guest:My first writing of music was Duke Ellington.

00:24:39Guest:I loved Duke Ellington.

00:24:41Marc:I really want to dig into him more.

00:24:43Marc:There's almost limitless genius to that guy.

00:24:46Guest:Yeah, total genius.

00:24:48Guest:And you listen to the arrangements.

00:24:50Guest:So transcribing Ellington arrangements was my first time actually writing music.

00:24:55Guest:I was trying to learn how to transcribe in Ellington.

00:24:58Guest:So that's how you learn how to read music and write music?

00:25:01Guest:Listening and learning to write down the parts to Ellington.

00:25:05Guest:Oh, man.

00:25:06Guest:So you taught yourself that?

00:25:07Guest:Yeah.

00:25:08Guest:And Ellington stuff, even now, many years later, I look back and I go, no, still a total genius.

00:25:16Guest:It's not like I thought so at the time.

00:25:17Guest:And in hindsight, I go, no, not really.

00:25:19Guest:No, he was a fucking genius, man.

00:25:20Marc:Right.

00:25:21Marc:So even before you got involved with pop music, you- Way before I got involved with pop music.

00:25:28Marc:You're appreciating the sort of layers of composition.

00:25:32Guest:It seems to me that- I was listening to Ellington, Django, Stravinsky, and Prokofiev.

00:25:40Guest:Yeah.

00:25:40Guest:And so my compositions were like a weird Prokofiev-ish, Stravinsky-ish nuttiness mixed in with Cab Calloway.

00:25:49Guest:But that's how your brain worked.

00:25:50Guest:Yeah.

00:25:51Guest:Yeah.

00:25:51Guest:What about Zappa?

00:25:52Guest:Did you ever engage with that?

00:25:54Guest:I mean, I knew Zappa's stuff and I listened, but that was like a kind of progressive rock.

00:25:59Guest:And because it was rock, I wasn't even into it.

00:26:01Marc:So when that was happening, even though the humor of it and the intention of it... Well, I guess it wasn't quite similar to what you were doing then, but certainly his fuck you-ishness came later.

00:26:10Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:26:11Guest:I totally appreciated him and his attitude.

00:26:13Guest:And I remember his first album...

00:26:15Guest:Because that was still when I was listening to rock, The Mothers of Invention.

00:26:18Guest:Yes.

00:26:19Guest:I loved.

00:26:19Guest:It was one of my first albums.

00:26:21Guest:Oh, really?

00:26:21Guest:But then when I did my brain shift, I got no rock and roll.

00:26:25Marc:Right.

00:26:25Marc:Nothing.

00:26:25Guest:Because it was silly.

00:26:28Guest:No, not at all.

00:26:29Guest:I just entered a portal.

00:26:31Guest:Yeah.

00:26:31Guest:It's just like walking through a portal.

00:26:32Guest:It's like, okay, I'll live here for a while.

00:26:36Guest:And that's sort of an infinite portal, that one.

00:26:38Guest:Yeah.

00:26:39Guest:Yeah.

00:26:40Guest:A lot of people never leave those portals.

00:26:41Marc:No, because like, well, I mean, I think it must have...

00:26:46Marc:informed your creativity all the way through it.

00:26:48Marc:Because there's no, it seems like that spectrum of stuff you were listening to can really encourage experimentation for almost effort, right?

00:26:56Guest:Well, that's true.

00:26:56Guest:I was also listening to a lot of modern percussion.

00:26:59Guest:I became obsessed with percussion.

00:27:00Guest:And there was a point where I thought I'd become a musicologist or a percussionist.

00:27:04Guest:I love this guy named Harry Parch.

00:27:07Guest:Harry Parch was like almost a hobo composer in the 50s and the 60s, and he built his own instruments.

00:27:14Guest:And we, in the Mystic Knights, we actually built our entire ensemble of percussion instruments ourselves.

00:27:19Guest:Out of what?

00:27:20Guest:Out of metal and wood.

00:27:21Guest:I used to grind metal and grind wood.

00:27:23Guest:Did you guys live together?

00:27:25Guest:No, but my partner, Leon Schneiderman, he was the same guy I went to Africa with.

00:27:29Guest:He was a brilliant builder.

00:27:31Guest:Okay.

00:27:31Guest:He could build anything.

00:27:32Guest:And so I was really more like his assistant.

00:27:35Guest:Like, I would design, like, here's what we want to do.

00:27:37Guest:We want to build this big base, crazy base marimba thing.

00:27:40Guest:We want to build this metal minor pans on a rack.

00:27:43Guest:But he would actually do it, and I would help him.

00:27:46Guest:He was really... That was his genius, was like...

00:27:49Guest:making constructions of things and putting it together.

00:27:53Marc:So were you guys doing like happenings?

00:27:55Marc:Was that sort of the context of the performance?

00:27:57Guest:No.

00:27:57Guest:Were we recording?

00:27:59Guest:No.

00:28:00Guest:I mean, the first years was all on the streets.

00:28:02Guest:So my first three, four years of performance- Anywhere.

00:28:05Guest:Like we'd go to Westwood.

00:28:06Guest:Yeah.

00:28:07Guest:Huh.

00:28:07Guest:Like outside of a movie.

00:28:08Guest:We'd just like- 15 guys?

00:28:10Guest:About, at that point, probably about 10.

00:28:12Guest:Yeah.

00:28:12Guest:Like drums.

00:28:13Guest:Yeah.

00:28:14Guest:Do drums and then put the drums down, pick up our horns, play this crazy show, pass the hat and bail before the police came.

00:28:19Guest:Wow.

00:28:21Guest:And that went on for that many years?

00:28:23Guest:Yeah.

00:28:24Guest:And then finally started moving into theaters, like little theaters.

00:28:28Guest:Did you ever build up any momentum?

00:28:31Guest:A little bit.

00:28:31Guest:I mean, we got popular enough to play like a month at the boarding house in San Francisco, which was like a cool little theater.

00:28:41Guest:And we did the Alcazar.

00:28:43Guest:We did the Aquarius Theater here.

00:28:46Guest:We played for like a week.

00:28:47Guest:We do that kind of thing.

00:28:48Guest:And what were you doing for a living?

00:28:51Guest:Waiting tables.

00:28:52Guest:Where?

00:28:53Guest:Great American Food and Beverage Company in Santa Monica, where I had to perform.

00:28:58Guest:I had to play trombone and sing and wait tables.

00:29:01Guest:So you had a little riff on the trombone you would do?

00:29:03Guest:Oh, man, it was awful.

00:29:05Guest:It was so loud and crazy.

00:29:07Guest:And honestly, I was a busboy.

00:29:10Guest:I wasn't even really a waiter.

00:29:11Guest:I was only a waiter at the end.

00:29:13Guest:I wasn't good enough.

00:29:14Guest:On the trombone or as a waiter?

00:29:16Guest:As a waiter.

00:29:17Guest:Okay.

00:29:17Guest:I was a shitty waiter.

00:29:19Guest:Me too.

00:29:19Guest:Terrible.

00:29:20Guest:I tried to bust into like two other restaurants afterwards and like faked my way in and I didn't last a week.

00:29:25Guest:Yeah.

00:29:26Guest:I couldn't remember the orders.

00:29:27Guest:Yeah.

00:29:28Guest:Bring the wrong thing.

00:29:29Guest:I didn't order that.

00:29:30Guest:It's the worst.

00:29:31Guest:Oh, help.

00:29:33Guest:Yeah.

00:29:33Guest:It's the worst.

00:29:34Guest:so when what's the evolution what's out of the mystic what's the whole name of the mystic knights of the oingo boingo oh so it was the mystic knights of the oingo boingo some of those guys I call it the mystic knights because it's so confusing because the band took the name oingo boingo right but it's no connection to what the mystic knights were doing so it's really fucking confusing

00:29:53Marc:I mean, it seemed like you must have learned a lot.

00:29:57Marc:It must have laid the groundwork for your musical imagination.

00:30:00Guest:Well, I knew what I didn't want to do.

00:30:03Guest:I didn't want to do theater anymore at all.

00:30:05Guest:So suddenly I heard ska out of England.

00:30:08Guest:And I said, I want to do that.

00:30:10Guest:I want to be a ska band.

00:30:11Guest:And I love the idea that all we need is amps, no sets, costumes, makeup, all this shit.

00:30:16Guest:Because we had movies, animations.

00:30:19Guest:Yeah.

00:30:19Guest:It's like, I love the idea.

00:30:20Guest:So it's a full psychedelic experience in a way, but not psychedelic.

00:30:23Guest:Trippy, yeah.

00:30:24Guest:Yeah.

00:30:25Guest:And so I love the idea of going to the other extreme.

00:30:27Guest:Strip it down.

00:30:28Guest:Strip it down.

00:30:29Guest:Yeah.

00:30:29Guest:All we need is amps, drums, go.

00:30:31Guest:Yeah.

00:30:32Guest:And I just wanted to be in a ska band all of a sudden.

00:30:36Marc:It's weird because I listened to those first couple Oingo Boingo records, and it doesn't sound essentially like ska to me.

00:30:44Guest:It was motivated by ska and punk.

00:30:47Guest:We weren't really a ska band, and we certainly weren't a punk band, but we were driven by those impulses.

00:30:55Guest:There were a number of ska songs.

00:30:57Guest:Most of them didn't make it to record.

00:30:59Guest:And then what wasn't ska was just really fast.

00:31:02Marc:Yeah, it was fast in it, like, but it drew from, like, there's a momentum that kind of, you know, pounds through, like, a lot of your music, you know, an intensity to it.

00:31:12Marc:It's called nervous energy.

00:31:16Guest:Loud nervous energy?

00:31:17Guest:Loud nervous energy with, you know, really, really low attention span.

00:31:24Guest:Yeah.

00:31:25Marc:Did you have ADHD?

00:31:29Marc:Probably.

00:31:29Guest:We didn't get diagnosed back then, but I'm sure that I did.

00:31:36Guest:But music focuses you somehow.

00:31:37Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:31:38Guest:The only thing I could focus on

00:31:41Guest:was like, if I was into a composition, if I was into a thing, I learned I could really, really stick with that.

00:31:47Guest:Be present for it.

00:31:48Guest:Yeah, present for it.

00:31:49Guest:But I could never learn another language.

00:31:51Guest:I could never learn to read properly, even though I could write my whole scores down when I started scoring.

00:31:56Guest:I tried doing lessons to like improve my reading and I couldn't fucking do it.

00:32:02Guest:It's like I really began to feel and I still feel that I've got a brain like a kink.

00:32:07Guest:Yeah.

00:32:08Guest:You know, like some something in there that like has me always been off.

00:32:13Marc:But can you sight read pretty well?

00:32:16Guest:Not at all.

00:32:17Guest:Music?

00:32:17Guest:No.

00:32:17Guest:No, shit.

00:32:18Guest:That's what I mean.

00:32:19Guest:That's what I mean.

00:32:20Guest:I can write it, but when I read it back, I have to read it slow because I learned to write without learning how to read.

00:32:26Guest:So my reading was as fast as I can write.

00:32:28Guest:So that would be the same as teaching yourself to type.

00:32:32Guest:without reading and then when you learn to read you're reading at the same speed you could type right but so but you can express yourself immediately uh through writing music if you hear it in your head yeah oh that's good yeah i can write it i learned early enough that i could write it all down if i take the time freeze it and write it yeah but to read it in real time yeah fluently that was like learning a language and that's where i hit a block and

00:32:56Guest:Well, that's when you get the other guy to do it, right?

00:32:59Guest:Where you're like, play this for me.

00:33:00Guest:Well, I mean, I didn't have that ability back then, but, you know, write it out and then it would go straight to orchestra.

00:33:05Guest:Right, right, right.

00:33:06Guest:You know, when you're in a band, you don't write anything out.

00:33:08Guest:Right.

00:33:09Marc:You just jam.

00:33:09Guest:Yeah.

00:33:10Guest:You just tighten it up, rehearse.

00:33:12Guest:Oh, man, I did like seven years of writing with the Mystic Knights.

00:33:15Guest:Then I'm in the band, Doingo Boingo, and I said, all that was wasted.

00:33:19Guest:All that was for nothing.

00:33:20Guest:Because I'm in a band, you bring in a guitar, you play the song, and the band picks it up, and you're playing it.

00:33:25Marc:But what was the scene then?

00:33:26Marc:I mean, it's like in order, okay, you decided you didn't want to do theater, but you obviously made some choice to do pop music in a way, right?

00:33:33Marc:You were gunning for hits, weren't you?

00:33:35Guest:No.

00:33:36Guest:Not really?

00:33:36Guest:I knew we'd never have a hit.

00:33:38Guest:Didn't you kind of, though?

00:33:39Guest:Well, Weird Science was kind of a hit, but that was an inadvertent unplanned thing.

00:33:44Marc:I remember when I was a kid, because I'm 57, but I had a friend that would literally for months sing that, I think the first Oingo Boingo record, almost in its entirety, when he was just wandering around.

00:33:59Marc:I'm on the outside.

00:34:01Marc:Yeah.

00:34:03Guest:Well, I mean.

00:34:05Marc:Is that the first album?

00:34:07Guest:That probably was the first album.

00:34:09Guest:Yeah.

00:34:10Guest:Wow.

00:34:10Marc:Yeah.

00:34:11Guest:He really like.

00:34:12Marc:Yeah.

00:34:12Marc:He was in it.

00:34:13Marc:And it was like, it was one of those things.

00:34:15Marc:Do you guys never, you don't know about Wingo Boingo?

00:34:17Marc:No.

00:34:17Marc:And he had the cassette and he kept putting it in the car.

00:34:20Marc:Wow.

00:34:21Marc:Yeah.

00:34:21Guest:I pity you.

00:34:22Marc:No, it was great, because at that time, you're like, I've never heard anything like this.

00:34:27Guest:Well, but what ... I mean, hits, it wasn't.

00:34:30Guest:We developed a really big, beautiful following in the West Coast, but we were considered the biggest cult band in the country, because we got to a point where we could sell 6,500 seats easily in Los Angeles, and we could take that to San Francisco.

00:34:47Guest:We can go as far as Salt Lake City, San Diego.

00:34:50Guest:Yeah.

00:34:50Guest:That people would still know.

00:34:50Guest:Crossed the Rockies, and now we're playing like a 300-seat club.

00:34:53Marc:Really?

00:34:54Marc:Yeah.

00:34:54Marc:So I guess that's what it was.

00:34:55Marc:I think he probably was one of those guys, because I grew up in New Mexico, and I think he probably visited somebody in L.A.

00:35:00Marc:Right.

00:35:01Marc:And they're like, you don't know Oingo Boynton?

00:35:02Marc:That kind of thing.

00:35:03Marc:Yeah.

00:35:03Guest:And brought it back.

00:35:05Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:35:05Guest:But look, Salt Lake City was one of our best audiences.

00:35:08Marc:Very interesting.

00:35:09Marc:The people that sort of like Mormons are a good audience if you're not dirty and the people that are annoyed by Mormons are a great audience if you want to push the envelope.

00:35:18Guest:I just thought those kids needed to let some steam off because they were like some of the rowdiest audiences.

00:35:23Guest:Really?

00:35:23Guest:Yeah.

00:35:24Guest:They rivaled L.A.

00:35:25Guest:for sure.

00:35:25Marc:Well, if that was like, I'm trying to think, you were a part of the LA music scene at that point.

00:35:31Guest:Well, the LA music scene, fortunately at that point, was really eclectic.

00:35:35Guest:We switched clubs every weekend with a group of bands.

00:35:39Guest:It would be like us, a group called Fear, X, the Go-Go's, a group called Wall of Voodoo, Las Lobos.

00:35:49Guest:It was a really eclectic group.

00:35:51Guest:If you lined us all up,

00:35:52Guest:you would find very little in common with any of us.

00:35:54Marc:But that was sort of what real punk was about, wasn't it?

00:35:57Marc:It was just about a lot of different original, like it was not, like the sound that punk rock gets identified with is not really what the original idea of punk was.

00:36:08Guest:Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

00:36:09Guest:When I started a band, you know, it's like punk.

00:36:12Guest:Oh, I'm way too old.

00:36:13Guest:I'm 27.

00:36:14Guest:I'm an old man.

00:36:15Guest:So, like, I can't be in a punk band.

00:36:17Guest:But it was just people doing their own vision, like the Minutemen, too.

00:36:20Guest:Right.

00:36:21Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:36:21Guest:Exactly.

00:36:21Guest:And, yeah, so, I mean, a lot of boundaries were crossed.

00:36:24Guest:But the interesting thing about the L.A.

00:36:26Guest:scene is that there wasn't an L.A.

00:36:28Guest:scene.

00:36:28Guest:Right.

00:36:28Guest:It was just a lot of unique...

00:36:30Guest:I would play a show at Madame Wong's West, and I would run in between our sets to the Hong Kong Cafe to see X play.

00:36:38Guest:They were my favorite band ever.

00:36:39Guest:I listened to those first three X albums recently.

00:36:42Guest:They're amazing.

00:36:43Guest:They're great.

00:36:43Guest:I always thought they were like the best.

00:36:47Guest:They were the real deal.

00:36:48Guest:And the thing is, I would see X and Las Lobos and these other bands, and I so was envious of...

00:36:54Guest:of the fact that they knew who they were.

00:36:57Guest:And I never had a clue, and I still don't.

00:37:02Guest:There was an identity.

00:37:03Guest:And I envied that, the sense there was a center to it.

00:37:08Marc:Grounded in something real.

00:37:11Marc:Well, those guys are grounded in

00:37:14Marc:A sort of American tradition, right?

00:37:17Marc:X was kind of a rock band, and Los Lobos, those are kind of fundamental Americana bands.

00:37:23Guest:Yeah, and the Go-Go's was a pure pop band, and they all had a center that kept them clearly what they were, and I never had that, and I envied anybody who did.

00:37:34Guest:And you still feel like you don't?

00:37:35Guest:Oh, I know I don't, and my new album proves it.

00:37:41Marc:Yeah, but I mean, I listen to the new record and I listen to old records.

00:37:44Marc:I mean, you definitely, nobody sounds like you, but I understand what you're saying.

00:37:47Marc:But it seems to me that coming out of what you came out of with the interests that you had, you seem to honor most of those interests.

00:37:53Marc:And those are not as simple as those other bands.

00:37:57Guest:Maybe, but I still, I wanted to be in a different band every two years.

00:38:01Guest:And you can't be in a band wanting to be in a different band every two years.

00:38:04Guest:It's like every two years I wanted to wake up and do a whole different kind of band.

00:38:08Guest:And that made it very frustrating for me.

00:38:11Guest:And what I didn't understand is that I was going to become a film composer and those same impulses would work to my advantage.

00:38:19Guest:Not being limited.

00:38:20Guest:Well, no, just loving extremes.

00:38:22Guest:Having to switch it up, switch it up, switch it up.

00:38:25Guest:Because you go from ridiculous to heavy to intense to small and personal.

00:38:31Guest:You didn't need a center.

00:38:32Guest:You didn't need a center.

00:38:33Guest:As long as I could keep mixing it up, I was happy.

00:38:36Guest:If I did two things in a row that were the same, I was miserable.

00:38:40Guest:But being on the road was impossible.

00:38:41Guest:I'd have to perform the same songs every night would make me insane.

00:38:44Guest:Really?

00:38:45Guest:Yeah.

00:38:45Guest:I mean, I could never have been on Broadway.

00:38:48Guest:It's like when you hear about, you know, bands touring for all year long or playing the decades or somebody being on Broadway doing eight shows a week.

00:38:56Guest:Six weeks on the road, I was going insane.

00:39:00Guest:What was it?

00:39:00Guest:The repetition?

00:39:01Guest:Yeah.

00:39:02Marc:It just made me insane.

00:39:04Marc:Did it make you feel like you were just almost like a recording machine?

00:39:09Marc:Or what was it?

00:39:11Guest:I don't know.

00:39:11Guest:I was like, I don't want to do this song anymore.

00:39:14Guest:I don't want to do this song anymore.

00:39:16Guest:And...

00:39:17Guest:Because it was dead to you?

00:39:19Marc:It was more than two years old.

00:39:21Marc:So like when you were doing the mystic theater business, it was constantly evolving and improv.

00:39:27Guest:Did you improv a lot?

00:39:28Guest:Because it was a theater group, you can switch it up and change it and switch it up.

00:39:32Marc:And surprising things happened.

00:39:33Guest:Yeah.

00:39:34Guest:And also we didn't do that much performing.

00:39:36Guest:So we'd do like a month on and then there'd be four months off and then like two weeks on.

00:39:40Guest:And then, so it's not like we're playing every night.

00:39:43Marc:Well, that's interesting because so ultimately your destiny, thank God it worked out because you weren't cut out for the road.

00:39:51Guest:No, I was not cut out for the road.

00:39:53Guest:You know, it's like bands who stay together and tour for decades.

00:39:57Guest:I admire it, but I'm just not wired for that.

00:40:01Guest:And, um,

00:40:02Guest:I'm always at war.

00:40:04Guest:See, here's the problem.

00:40:06Guest:And you can hear it on the new record.

00:40:08Guest:And you could probably, if you listen to early Ongo Boingo and later Ongo Boingo, you can hear the conflict.

00:40:12Guest:There's two writers that don't like each other.

00:40:14Guest:In you.

00:40:15Guest:One is heavy and the other is really intense and ridiculous.

00:40:19Guest:Right.

00:40:20Guest:With a sense of kind of craziness.

00:40:22Guest:And they have no respect for each other.

00:40:25Guest:And they're always trying to get the front seat.

00:40:30Guest:That's within you.

00:40:31Guest:That's right.

00:40:32Guest:And when I started writing Big Mess, every song came out in pairs.

00:40:37Guest:Just like one, the other, one, the other.

00:40:39Marc:So the heavy part then...

00:40:41Marc:Well, I mean, but that's the counterbalance.

00:40:42Marc:One is the sense of humor.

00:40:44Marc:The other is the sort of dark dread.

00:40:48Guest:Yeah, that fills me, you know, and also when I'm writing orchestra and scores, you know, it's like I love writing heavy, dark music, but I also loved writing Pee Wee's Big Adventure and Beetlejuice.

00:41:01Guest:And I love them both.

00:41:02Guest:But they don't like each other.

00:41:04Marc:Well, how did it feel, though, on Big Mess?

00:41:07Marc:I mean, I imagine, because I've talked to a couple... I talked to Nancy Wilson a couple weeks ago from Heart.

00:41:13Marc:And this is a woman who's been in that rock band forever.

00:41:16Marc:Never done a solo record.

00:41:17Marc:But because she was locked down and they figured out the technology, she did her first solo album.

00:41:23Marc:Wow.

00:41:24Marc:So you're sitting at home.

00:41:25Marc:I mean, you haven't done like an Oingo Boingo record forever or a record like this in how many years?

00:41:29Guest:Well, 95 was my last record with Oingo Boingo.

00:41:32Guest:And I only did one solo record back in the 80s.

00:41:35Guest:Right.

00:41:35Guest:So this is like a monumental achievement in a way.

00:41:38Guest:Well, I don't know.

00:41:39Guest:I didn't look at it like that.

00:41:40Guest:No, but I mean, you did it.

00:41:41Guest:The thing is, I had set 2020 aside.

00:41:45Guest:Yeah.

00:41:45Guest:No films.

00:41:46Guest:I was going to do concerts.

00:41:48Marc:Before the pandemic?

00:41:48Guest:Yeah.

00:41:49Guest:You mean you were going to do your orchestra, you were going to conduct?

00:41:52Guest:Also, I had orchestra shows all over the world.

00:41:56Guest:Four different shows.

00:41:57Guest:I mean, I have a show that travels around called Elfman Burton.

00:42:00Guest:Yeah.

00:42:00Guest:Does all these Tim Burton music.

00:42:01Guest:All the Tim Burton album.

00:42:02Guest:Yeah.

00:42:03Guest:Then Nightmare Before Christmas starts going as a live thing.

00:42:06Guest:Do you do a live accompaniment to the film?

00:42:08Guest:No.

00:42:08Guest:The whole show live with orchestra.

00:42:10Guest:Oh, that's great.

00:42:11Guest:And they just announced that yesterday we're doing it this Halloween.

00:42:13Guest:People love that.

00:42:14Guest:They love that movie.

00:42:15Guest:But also, I had my violin concerto premiering in England and Germany that I wrote five years ago, four years ago.

00:42:23Guest:I had a new work that I'd written for the National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain premiering at the proms in August.

00:42:29Guest:I had a concerto.

00:42:29Guest:What's that one?

00:42:30Guest:I don't know what it is.

00:42:32Guest:I mean, because it didn't happen.

00:42:34Guest:So, you know, hopefully in another year.

00:42:35Guest:And two concertos, one a cello concerto and a concerto for percussion.

00:42:41Guest:So I was like really in that mindset.

00:42:43Guest:But I also had Coachella.

00:42:45Guest:And that got me into like...

00:42:47Guest:I'm going to come back out there and do this crazy fucking show in Coachella.

00:42:50Guest:What was the Coachella show?

00:42:51Guest:Half film music and half I was revamping and rewiring Oingo Boingo stuff.

00:42:57Guest:Yeah.

00:42:57Guest:And because I was looking for, I'm so angry in 2020.

00:43:02Guest:I'm so frustrated and so angry with the world and America.

00:43:05Guest:Yeah.

00:43:06Guest:That I was looking for what's relevant now.

00:43:08Guest:And I found that I was singing constantly about dystopia.

00:43:12Guest:So it wasn't hard to pull stuff and like, all right, that works, that works, that works.

00:43:16Guest:And I had this band together and we were rehearsing.

00:43:20Guest:Yeah.

00:43:20Guest:And we were starting to sound good and I was getting excited.

00:43:23Guest:Yeah.

00:43:23Guest:So my mind was like back into I'm going out on stage and I'm going to rip the fucking thing up and I'm going to really.

00:43:30Guest:And then it all disappears.

00:43:32Guest:Yeah.

00:43:32Guest:And so I'm sitting up in my little place north of Los Angeles.

00:43:37Guest:I have a second home that I've had for 25 years.

00:43:39Guest:I've never spent more than a weekend.

00:43:41Guest:My wife, myself, my son, my dog head up there.

00:43:45Guest:To quarantine.

00:43:46Guest:We've lived there for a year now.

00:43:48Guest:How was it?

00:43:48Guest:Beautiful.

00:43:50Marc:We're making that our primary home now.

00:43:52Marc:I know.

00:43:52Marc:I think I actually somehow on a news feed somewhere saw you sold your house here.

00:43:55Marc:Yeah.

00:43:56Marc:Yeah.

00:43:57Marc:Sold it.

00:43:57Marc:Looked like a pretty house.

00:43:58Marc:Beautiful.

00:43:59Guest:Yeah.

00:43:59Guest:But decided to make that the center.

00:44:03Guest:Out in the woods or what?

00:44:04Guest:It's not in the woods, but it's in a beautiful area, wild area.

00:44:10Guest:Oh, cool.

00:44:11Guest:I still had that thing in my head.

00:44:14Guest:And so I started to write this orchestral piece.

00:44:17Guest:But it's not happening because I'm not feeling... I knew that the proms was not going to happen in August.

00:44:23Guest:Even though they hadn't canceled, we all knew there was going to be no fucking concerts.

00:44:27Guest:So I lost the deadline.

00:44:29Guest:Along with the deadline went the impetus.

00:44:30Guest:And I said, you know what?

00:44:31Guest:I got this one new song I was going to do in Coachella.

00:44:34Guest:called Sorry.

00:44:35Guest:And I'll write a couple songs.

00:44:40Guest:And I have a beautiful studio in LA.

00:44:42Guest:Up there, all I had was one guitar, one mic, and my computer.

00:44:47Guest:And I didn't even have a pair of headphones that worked.

00:44:48Guest:I don't know what was wrong with them.

00:44:50Guest:And I just started in.

00:44:51Guest:And then Pandora's box,

00:44:54Guest:I couldn't shut the fucking thing up.

00:44:56Marc:Wow.

00:44:57Marc:That's interesting because you were in an orchestral state of mind, but you had a lot to say.

00:45:02Guest:I had a lot to say, and I still had the electric guitar fresh in my fingers.

00:45:08Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:45:08Guest:And so that made it a guitar-centric album.

00:45:12Guest:That I was writing.

00:45:13Guest:Otherwise, it could have been electronic.

00:45:14Guest:It could have been anything.

00:45:15Guest:Yeah.

00:45:15Guest:But I, in my head, I was going on stage with a guitar.

00:45:19Guest:Yeah.

00:45:19Guest:And so I just pulled out my guitar.

00:45:21Marc:And you laid out all those tracks?

00:45:23Marc:Yeah.

00:45:23Marc:Like, all you had was Sorry?

00:45:24Marc:Yeah.

00:45:25Marc:Yeah.

00:45:26Marc:I mean, like, there's a lot of stuff in this record that's kind of...

00:45:29Marc:Most all of it is timely because you knocked it out during this dark period.

00:45:34Guest:Yeah.

00:45:35Guest:I had so much venom in me.

00:45:38Guest:When I started opening my mouth to sing and putting lyrics, it was like, I don't even know where all this is coming from.

00:45:43Guest:But it was like...

00:45:45Guest:We were in an America that I could not have imagined except in a bad dystopian American short story or novel.

00:45:54Guest:Right.

00:45:54Guest:That you go, oh boy, look, that's not reality.

00:45:58Guest:Right.

00:45:59Guest:And that's where we were heading.

00:46:00Guest:Yeah.

00:46:01Guest:And it's not over.

00:46:03Guest:No.

00:46:03Guest:Not by a long fucking shot.

00:46:05Guest:No, the fight is on.

00:46:06Guest:The fight is on.

00:46:07Guest:And all we get is a reprieve.

00:46:08Guest:Right.

00:46:09Guest:So, but in 2020, I mean, I was at the height of frustration.

00:46:13Guest:And I was thinking- Fear?

00:46:15Guest:Fear, definitely.

00:46:16Guest:Yeah.

00:46:16Guest:You know, my wife and I were just going, do we move?

00:46:20Guest:I know.

00:46:21Guest:Yeah.

00:46:21Guest:Canada or England or New Zealand or Australia and English speaking country.

00:46:25Guest:Or do we try to bubble up in California?

00:46:28Guest:Yeah.

00:46:28Guest:Think of this as a country outside of America.

00:46:31Guest:Yeah.

00:46:32Guest:You know, how do we play this?

00:46:33Guest:It's like America's going insane.

00:46:35Guest:Yes.

00:46:36Guest:This is Idi Amin.

00:46:37Guest:This is like.

00:46:38Guest:When does it tip into blood in the streets?

00:46:41Guest:When does it tip into blood in the streets?

00:46:43Guest:And there's that point where I understood what happened in 1929 in Germany because Idi Amin took power.

00:46:51Guest:Hitler didn't.

00:46:52Guest:He was elected.

00:46:53Guest:And I'm not comparing Trump to Hitler because I've done this once and gotten myself in deep shit.

00:46:59Guest:What I'm comparing is when a civilized...

00:47:02Guest:democracy right hands over the democracy to a uh kind of a populist wild guy yeah who's tapping into like an anger right you know and with hitler it was a lie it was the anger of losing world war one yeah they were angry about that and he sold a lie that they didn't really lose it

00:47:25Guest:They didn't lose World War I. It was given away.

00:47:28Guest:They were actually winning the war.

00:47:30Guest:It's just where we are right now with Trump and the election.

00:47:33Guest:I didn't lose it.

00:47:34Guest:I won by a landslide.

00:47:35Guest:It was taken away.

00:47:36Guest:And then people, yeah, and they get angry about that.

00:47:40Guest:And before you know it, you hand the world to an authoritarian government.

00:47:44Guest:Now, clearly, Trump is not Hitler.

00:47:48Guest:But that civilization, my ancestors, who were living in Germany at the time,

00:47:54Guest:didn't believe that's not going to happen here we're they're too logical they're too they're too sane yeah they can't hand it over right and they did you lost people in the holocaust of course yeah well my my family they were out most of them before uh world war ii well a lot of mine were but not you know of course extended family sure sure yeah we all lost people yeah yeah yeah

00:48:16Guest:But the point is, is that it's handing it over and seeing the insanity and going, it'll level out.

00:48:24Guest:It'll level out.

00:48:24Guest:No, it doesn't.

00:48:26Guest:It's like, this is just crazy.

00:48:29Guest:Right.

00:48:30Guest:And that's what drove this.

00:48:31Guest:Yeah.

00:48:32Guest:Yeah.

00:48:32Guest:It was like seeing like we're going crazy.

00:48:35Guest:We're talking crazy conspiracies.

00:48:37Guest:Yeah.

00:48:38Guest:I mean, you got QAnon out there talking crazy shit.

00:48:41Guest:This is like flat earth.

00:48:44Marc:I know it's all happening.

00:48:45Marc:Yeah.

00:48:46Marc:Yeah.

00:48:46Marc:It's amazing how how fragile the human brain is in terms of like I found that what surprised me more than anything else, both.

00:48:53Marc:With people I thought were intelligent and also with people who are frighteningly stupid is just how truly shallow a lot of people's intellect is and principles about anything or their ability to to have some sort of barometer for truth.

00:49:08Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:49:09Guest:Well, I mean, look, my anger wasn't directed at Trump.

00:49:12Guest:Trump, every culture has got a million sociopath, crazy, you know, populists waiting to like step in and hand them the power.

00:49:20Guest:Sure, I'll take it.

00:49:23Guest:It's the Republican Party that enabled him.

00:49:26Guest:And continues to.

00:49:27Guest:And continues to.

00:49:28Guest:Craven fucking opportunists.

00:49:30Guest:That's the part that gets me.

00:49:32Guest:Because it should be he's a fringe.

00:49:34Guest:He's like a fringe character on a stage of characters, and he's like one of the fringe.

00:49:40Marc:No, I guess, I mean, should we have been surprised that none of them had any character or backbone?

00:49:46Guest:I was surprised.

00:49:48Guest:I didn't think they'd go that far as to like the... I just didn't think it could happen.

00:49:54Marc:And which song on here speaks to, like in your mind, is like the one that really covers...

00:50:03Guest:Most of all, I would probably say sorry and serious ground.

00:50:08Guest:Yeah.

00:50:09Guest:You know, it's like I felt those boots coming.

00:50:13Guest:Yeah.

00:50:14Guest:And, you know, what it feels like to feel like the boots of like the gang.

00:50:18Guest:Yeah.

00:50:19Guest:And, you know, I've always had this fear of gangs, of mobs.

00:50:24Guest:Yeah.

00:50:25Guest:I remember being in England once and I was lost.

00:50:27Guest:I was trying to get out of one area into another and I was like near a soccer stadium, I guess.

00:50:31Guest:Yeah.

00:50:32Guest:And suddenly I hear the sound.

00:50:34Guest:Right.

00:50:34Guest:And it was like a kind of a big mob coming from a game.

00:50:38Guest:And I just hid out of the way and I watched them march by.

00:50:42Guest:Yeah.

00:50:42Guest:And I was fucking scared.

00:50:43Guest:No, they weren't out to get me.

00:50:45Guest:Yeah.

00:50:45Guest:And I didn't have any reason to be.

00:50:46Guest:But the fact that it was a fired up mob.

00:50:49Guest:Yes.

00:50:49Guest:Maybe it's the Jew in me.

00:50:51Guest:Yeah.

00:50:51Guest:It's like, get out of the fucking way.

00:50:53Guest:Yeah.

00:50:54Guest:These are, you know, this is the Gestapo.

00:50:56Guest:This is the mob.

00:50:57Guest:This is the uncontrollable mob.

00:50:59Guest:Yes.

00:50:59Guest:It's like where there's a group of fired up.

00:51:01Marc:Yeah, I was freaked out.

00:51:03Marc:I mean, when he was elected, the woman I was dating at the time, you know, I was like, I got to get my passport, make sure my papers are in order so I can get the fuck out of here because they're going to come for us.

00:51:15Marc:And she was like, I think Jews are like my third or fourth down on the list.

00:51:20Marc:I think they got to get through a few other ones.

00:51:23Marc:Some brown people first.

00:51:26Marc:And I'm like, well, that's cold comfort.

00:51:27Marc:But I understand what you're saying.

00:51:29Guest:No.

00:51:29Guest:And that's the other similarity to us in Germany 29 is focus your anger towards a minority.

00:51:35Guest:Yeah.

00:51:35Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:51:36Guest:That's standard practice.

00:51:38Guest:Standard practice.

00:51:39Guest:Yeah.

00:51:39Guest:And in fact, that was Idi Amin's thing.

00:51:41Guest:He fired up his base with get rid of the Indians, the Sikhs, because a lot of the businesses were run by Sikhs, run really well by a long embedded Sikh population that had been there for generations.

00:51:53Guest:And he was saying, we're going to kick all the Sikhs out.

00:51:56Guest:And people that I talked with in Uganda were going, they could never do that.

00:52:00Guest:You know, the Sikhs, they keep the economy rolling.

00:52:03Guest:They're actually really good at what they do.

00:52:06Guest:They're not stealing land from Ugandans.

00:52:08Guest:They're just good business people.

00:52:10Guest:And he did.

00:52:11Guest:The year I got home, I remember I'm home.

00:52:13Guest:He says, all the Sikhs expelled.

00:52:15Guest:Their business is taken away and nationalized.

00:52:17Guest:And that was the beginning of the economy going into this massive nosy.

00:52:20Marc:That's what's scary just now about how all these corporations stood up against these new voting legislations in these Republican states.

00:52:27Marc:And they just said, fuck you.

00:52:29Marc:We're going to do it anyways.

00:52:30Marc:That's right.

00:52:31Marc:So but getting back to the music, it's interesting to me that that the sort of scope that you you can sort of summon.

00:52:40Marc:that orchestrally was not enough to relieve your dread and fear, that you had to put voice to it.

00:52:46Guest:I had to put voice to it.

00:52:47Guest:Yeah.

00:52:47Guest:And I had to get that out of my system.

00:52:50Guest:And also, I just had a lot of stored up.

00:52:52Guest:I mean, also part of it was pandemic.

00:52:53Guest:It was like quarantine.

00:52:55Guest:I just had a lot of frustrated, pent-up energy.

00:52:57Marc:Because you're used to running around and performing and scoring and...

00:53:00Guest:Yeah, just, I don't know.

00:53:02Guest:I just wasn't used to like just being sitting up, you know, north in my little paradise.

00:53:09Marc:You know, as sweet as it is, it's like, okay, two weeks.

00:53:11Marc:Well, what do you reckon with that?

00:53:13Marc:I mean, you know, for a guy that doesn't feel like you have a center or a particular identity, did you come upon one?

00:53:22Guest:No, I mean, it was interesting, the sources that were coming to me, because I found a lot of David Bowie.

00:53:29Guest:I hear that in your record, yeah.

00:53:30Guest:And I didn't grow up on David Bowie, but I discovered him later.

00:53:34Guest:Well, it's like Bruin Bowie.

00:53:36Guest:Well, Scary Monster.

00:53:38Guest:You know, it's like when I pick up a guitar, I'm thinking of like Adrian Ballou, Scary Monster, period.

00:53:45Guest:It's like, oh, that's part of my subconscious now.

00:53:48Guest:Oh, really?

00:53:48Guest:So there's always going to be like- No frip, Ballou.

00:53:52Guest:Well, no, Fripp, too.

00:53:53Guest:But that particular, that album, I realize I know every song on it.

00:53:57Guest:It stuck with me.

00:53:58Guest:When I came back to popular music in the 80s, that was the first Bowie album I heard.

00:54:05Guest:I'd never heard anything.

00:54:07Guest:I never even knew what Siggy Stardust was.

00:54:09Marc:I remember when Scary Monsters came out, how exciting it was, because he'd been away for a while.

00:54:13Marc:Okay.

00:54:14Marc:Right?

00:54:14Guest:I didn't know that.

00:54:15Guest:See, for me, that was just like, that was what was there when I came out of hibernation.

00:54:19Marc:Yeah, is Baloo all over that record?

00:54:21Guest:Yeah.

00:54:21Guest:Oh, man.

00:54:22Guest:Yeah.

00:54:22Marc:And so that hit me.

00:54:25Marc:And you have that similar kind of vocal effect sometimes.

00:54:29Guest:Well, I wish.

00:54:30Guest:I mean, you know, in my dreams.

00:54:33Guest:No, but you have the depth of it, I think, sometimes.

00:54:35Guest:Well, you know, what's interesting is I had to find a voice for this record because when it comes to singing, it's use it or lose it, baby.

00:54:42Guest:And I hadn't been using it for 25 years.

00:54:45Guest:I remember going to Vegas.

00:54:47Guest:Tim Burton said, oh, you got to go to the Tom Jones show in Las Vegas.

00:54:50Guest:I just interviewed him.

00:54:51Guest:Really?

00:54:51Guest:Yeah.

00:54:52Guest:And I did.

00:54:53Guest:I went out to Tim's.

00:54:54Guest:Yeah.

00:54:55Guest:And he must have been my age now or maybe older.

00:54:58Guest:Yeah.

00:54:59Guest:He was amazing.

00:55:00Guest:Yeah.

00:55:01Guest:He would hit high notes and then hold it longer than he needed to.

00:55:05Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:55:06Guest:And look at the audience.

00:55:06Guest:It was like, fuck you.

00:55:08Guest:I can hold this fucker forever.

00:55:10Guest:Yeah.

00:55:10Guest:He's still like that.

00:55:11Guest:That's what drives him is that he can still do it.

00:55:14Guest:He was amazing.

00:55:15Guest:Now, I hadn't sung.

00:55:17Guest:So, like, when I got in there for rehearsals for Coachella, it's like, oh, man.

00:55:20Guest:Oingo Boingo songs were already at the top of my range.

00:55:23Guest:Right.

00:55:23Guest:It's like, I can't hit these high notes.

00:55:25Guest:So, I'm sitting there with the album.

00:55:26Guest:It's like, what is my range?

00:55:28Guest:What's my instrument?

00:55:29Guest:Yeah.

00:55:29Guest:And it was a song called True.

00:55:31Guest:Yeah.

00:55:32Guest:And I found, like, I couldn't do this song 25 years ago.

00:55:37Guest:Interesting.

00:55:38Guest:And I go, I'm liking this now because...

00:55:42Guest:I think it's like, you know, if trumpet was your thing and then you put it away for a long time, you bring it out and you go, okay, I can't hit high C, but I can hit this middle tone nastier than I could then.

00:55:53Guest:Oh, so you're aware of that.

00:55:54Guest:Yeah.

00:55:54Guest:And it was like, I was finding those tones and I was going,

00:55:57Guest:I always did want a rougher voice back then, and I was frustrated that I didn't have it.

00:56:02Guest:Oh, now you got it.

00:56:03Guest:You earned it.

00:56:04Guest:I got it.

00:56:05Guest:I earned it.

00:56:05Guest:So I can't go as high, but I found I could do stuff.

00:56:09Guest:I could also sing with more open than I think I was trying harder then.

00:56:15Guest:All of my vocals on Big Mess were demos in my own room.

00:56:20Guest:I didn't recut a thing when we went to do the album.

00:56:23Guest:and I didn't care.

00:56:25Guest:I said, I don't care.

00:56:26Guest:I don't care the fuck what anybody thinks of my vocals.

00:56:29Guest:If I sound shitty, I sound shitty.

00:56:30Marc:The fuck do I care?

00:56:32Marc:Yeah, and also, I imagine when you were younger, there was an urgency.

00:56:36Guest:Yeah, and I'd go in the studio and try to top it, do another take, do another take.

00:56:42Guest:This time is no other takes.

00:56:44Guest:Just lay it down.

00:56:45Guest:Okay, it's a little out of tune here.

00:56:47Guest:Okay, I'm good with that.

00:56:49Guest:Don't fix it.

00:56:50Guest:And you know where I learned that?

00:56:52Guest:Nightmare Before Christmas, a quarter century ago.

00:56:55Guest:Tim and I went in the studio when I first wrote the songs.

00:56:58Guest:There were 10 songs.

00:56:59Guest:And I had a female singer do Sally's song.

00:57:03Guest:Now I had nine songs to record.

00:57:04Guest:I did all the parts one night with Tim as the producer.

00:57:08Guest:And now a year later, we're in the studio doing it for real.

00:57:13Guest:Yeah.

00:57:14Guest:And I'd be singing and singing and singing and Tim would go, can you put on that original demo?

00:57:19Guest:Put it on.

00:57:20Guest:I hate to say it, but I kind of like this verse or that verse better.

00:57:23Guest:And he was right.

00:57:24Guest:Yeah.

00:57:25Guest:And I realized, you know what?

00:57:26Guest:There's something to that first take.

00:57:29Guest:Sure.

00:57:29Guest:Yeah.

00:57:29Guest:That's special.

00:57:31Guest:And half of those demos.

00:57:32Guest:Not self-conscious yet.

00:57:33Guest:No.

00:57:34Guest:And half of the demos from Nightmare made it into the final movie.

00:57:38Guest:So this time...

00:57:39Guest:I was smart.

00:57:40Guest:I was saying, don't discount any first vocals that you do.

00:57:45Marc:Yeah.

00:57:45Marc:And you got to hold yourself to that, especially if you second guess, you're insecure, you're a perfectionist.

00:57:50Marc:I mean, it's almost like this weird discipline.

00:57:53Marc:Yeah.

00:57:53Marc:It's like you lay it down.

00:57:54Marc:You're like, don't fuck it up.

00:57:56Guest:Don't fuck it up.

00:57:57Guest:And it's the discipline to not be a perfectionist.

00:58:01Marc:Right.

00:58:01Guest:That's hard for you?

00:58:02Guest:Yeah.

00:58:03Yeah.

00:58:03Guest:So that was a good experience.

00:58:08Guest:It was cathartic.

00:58:09Guest:I was being open.

00:58:10Guest:Also, I was writing first person, which I rarely did in Oingo Boingo.

00:58:14Guest:Wow.

00:58:15Guest:So it's like a full departure.

00:58:17Guest:It was.

00:58:17Guest:Like a rediscovery.

00:58:18Guest:You know, in the beginning in Oingo Boingo, almost everything was third person.

00:58:22Guest:Yeah.

00:58:23Guest:Characters?

00:58:23Guest:Characters.

00:58:24Guest:Yeah.

00:58:24Guest:You know, like people ask me now, say...

00:58:26Guest:Man, aren't you ashamed you wrote a song, I Love Little Girls?

00:58:29Guest:I go, no.

00:58:30Guest:I was Jeffrey Epstein singing about little girls.

00:58:35Guest:Right, right.

00:58:36Guest:And middle-class socialist brat, I mean, are you really down on... I said, no, I was a middle-class socialist brat.

00:58:43Guest:That's me.

00:58:44Guest:But I'm trying to irritate everybody.

00:58:47Marc:Well, that's interesting now that people in this new sort of culture of...

00:58:53Marc:first person, authenticity, own what you say kind of shit, that they don't have the sophistication to understand that there are characters in these songs.

00:59:02Guest:Oh, absolutely.

00:59:03Guest:It's interesting.

00:59:04Guest:They were almost all characters.

00:59:05Guest:Yeah.

00:59:06Guest:I was just shooting at the right and the left.

00:59:08Marc:Yeah.

00:59:08Guest:Boom, boom, boom.

00:59:09Guest:It's like, get everybody mad.

00:59:10Guest:And this one, you do something similar, but it's from your own heart.

00:59:15Guest:It's from my own heart.

00:59:16Guest:And I'm singing for the first time in ages,

00:59:20Guest:How I felt.

00:59:21Guest:Yeah.

00:59:22Guest:That's great.

00:59:22Guest:You know, I guess that maybe that's just getting older and not caring because, you know, third person is also protection.

00:59:28Guest:Sure.

00:59:29Guest:Yeah.

00:59:29Guest:A bit of armor.

00:59:30Marc:Yeah.

00:59:30Marc:It's character.

00:59:31Marc:Yeah.

00:59:31Marc:And also being in a band is a bit of protection.

00:59:34Marc:Yeah.

00:59:34Marc:You're keeping yourself protected.

00:59:36Marc:Well, it's interesting that it's good that you've had the success that you've had and that you are musically confident enough to allow yourself to do this.

00:59:48Marc:And also that we happen to have an aspiring fascist and a pandemic.

00:59:54Guest:That doesn't hurt.

00:59:56Guest:It really doesn't hurt because the album wouldn't happen.

00:59:58Guest:No.

00:59:59Guest:Not in a million years.

01:00:00Guest:Yeah, you would have been doing like huge movie things and orchestras.

01:00:03Guest:Orchestras.

01:00:04Guest:Yeah, exactly.

01:00:05Marc:But when did you know?

01:00:08Marc:Did you know that Oingo Boingo was like that couldn't last?

01:00:13Marc:Was there any part of moving?

01:00:15Marc:Because you were doing soundtracks.

01:00:17Marc:Yeah, the 10 years of overlap.

01:00:19Marc:That's a lot.

01:00:20Guest:Yeah.

01:00:21Marc:But so how did the first soundtrack happen?

01:00:24Guest:It was Pee-wee's Big Adventure.

01:00:27Guest:It was.

01:00:27Guest:That was the first big one?

01:00:28Guest:Tim Burton came to me.

01:00:29Guest:How did he know you?

01:00:30Guest:He knew me through Oingo Boingo.

01:00:32Guest:He did.

01:00:32Guest:Paul Rubens, that's Pee-wee, knew me through Forbidden Zone that I did for my brother in the 70s.

01:00:39Guest:My brother did this crazy movie, Forbidden Zone, and Paul was a fan.

01:00:43Guest:So Paul and Tim get together, and they knew me through two different worlds.

01:00:46Guest:Did Paul know your brother?

01:00:47Guest:No.

01:00:48Guest:But Paul knew.

01:00:49Guest:He made a note in his head.

01:00:50Guest:He said, whoever did Forbidden Zone, I want that guy.

01:00:53Guest:And Tim used to go see Oingo Boingo.

01:00:56Guest:So when I met Tim, I thought they wanted a song.

01:00:59Guest:And Tim was like, no, I'm looking for a score.

01:01:01Guest:And I'm like, why me?

01:01:05Guest:A real score?

01:01:06Guest:Yeah.

01:01:06Guest:And I almost didn't take the job.

01:01:08Guest:Huh.

01:01:09Guest:Because we talked.

01:01:10Guest:I went home and I did a demo.

01:01:11Guest:I sent him a cassette tape.

01:01:13Guest:And that's the main titles to Pee Wee.

01:01:14Guest:But, you know, I got the job and I almost said no.

01:01:17Guest:I said, I don't want to fuck up your movie.

01:01:19Guest:I liked him.

01:01:20Guest:I didn't want to fuck up his movie.

01:01:21Marc:But like, but what he must have known, like, he must have heard the whole history of what you think is interesting.

01:01:28Marc:Musically annoying.

01:01:29Marc:I don't know what he heard because he took a big chance.

01:01:32Guest:That's all I could say.

01:01:33Marc:But who could have handled something that, you know, like it's interesting because it was so defining of like a lot of the stuff you're going to do from then on.

01:01:42Marc:Because the range of it, like it was totally in your wheelhouse pre-Wongo Boingo, it seems, that Pee Wee was.

01:01:48Marc:I don't know.

01:01:49Marc:I'd never tried it before.

01:01:50Guest:The scoring, but I mean, the kind of music, there was a calliope element.

01:01:55Guest:No, no, that's true.

01:01:56Guest:I listened to film music.

01:01:59Guest:I was a film music fan.

01:02:00Guest:You were.

01:02:01Guest:From when I was about 12.

01:02:02Guest:What was compelling about it, really?

01:02:04Guest:Oh, well, you know, first off, I went to the movie theater every weekend of my life.

01:02:07Guest:Yeah.

01:02:08Guest:My church was the Baldwin Hills movie theater.

01:02:10Guest:Yeah.

01:02:10Guest:horror films.

01:02:11Guest:Right.

01:02:12Guest:That's very specific.

01:02:13Guest:Yeah.

01:02:14Guest:And science fiction.

01:02:14Guest:I grew up.

01:02:15Guest:Interesting.

01:02:16Guest:I remember the film.

01:02:16Guest:It was The Day the Earth Stood Still.

01:02:18Guest:Right.

01:02:19Guest:Bernard Herrmann.

01:02:20Guest:Yeah.

01:02:20Guest:And it was like, wow, somebody wrote this.

01:02:24Guest:There was a name and music.

01:02:25Guest:And I understood that the music didn't just happen.

01:02:28Guest:Somebody did it.

01:02:29Marc:But it's also interesting that those two forms, like horror and science fiction, the music is essential in creating.

01:02:36Marc:I mean, it's always essential in creating a mood, granted, but it almost plays a character.

01:02:40Marc:Yeah.

01:02:41Marc:In both of those genres.

01:02:42Guest:Totally.

01:02:43Guest:Right.

01:02:44Guest:And then I went on to all these movies I grew up as a kid.

01:02:48Guest:Seventh Voyage of Sinbad, Jason and the Argonauts, Journey to the Center of the Earth.

01:02:53Guest:So every time I saw Ray Harryhausen and Bernard Herrmann's names, I go, that's it.

01:02:59Guest:That's the movie.

01:03:00Guest:That's going to be my favorite movie of the year.

01:03:01Guest:Harryhausen and Herrmann.

01:03:02Marc:Right.

01:03:03Marc:Wow, because it was interesting.

01:03:04Marc:I was listening.

01:03:05Marc:I don't know why I'm using the word interesting so much.

01:03:06Marc:I don't usually.

01:03:07Marc:Because I was listening to some of the scores that you did, and when you listen to them without the movie, you're like, how did the movie even exist next to this?

01:03:16Marc:It's like bigger than the movie.

01:03:18Guest:Do you know what I mean?

01:03:22Guest:I guess.

01:03:23Guest:Yeah.

01:03:23Marc:I mean, it's good because you don't notice in that way in context.

01:03:27Marc:But on its own, you're like, oh, my God, this is huge.

01:03:30Marc:I never thought of it that way.

01:03:31Marc:It's like it's almost sort of like I see your movie and I will trump.

01:03:37Marc:I will double that.

01:03:39Guest:I mean, honestly, I was just doing the best I could for the movie.

01:03:42Guest:That's great.

01:03:43Guest:So Pee Wee's was it.

01:03:45Guest:Pee Wee's was it.

01:03:45Guest:That opened the door.

01:03:46Guest:Baptism and fire.

01:03:47Guest:Yeah.

01:03:47Guest:And it was the right place at the right time.

01:03:50Guest:Any successful composer has a lucky break.

01:03:53Guest:And that was Pee Wee because- But you didn't see yourself as a composer yet, did you?

01:03:57Guest:I didn't.

01:03:57Guest:But something about that moment in time with film and comedy- Yeah.

01:04:02Guest:Nobody knew what to do with comedy.

01:04:03Guest:Right.

01:04:04Guest:Pee Wee came out and instantly-

01:04:06Guest:I was offered every quirky comedy made in Hollywood.

01:04:09Guest:Wow.

01:04:09Guest:I was like, get the guy who did Pee Wee, get the guy who did Pee Wee, get the guy who did Pee Wee.

01:04:12Guest:And that's how you did that?

01:04:13Guest:That's how back to school happened?

01:04:14Guest:Yeah, exactly.

01:04:15Guest:And that's a totally more traditional thing.

01:04:17Guest:Yeah.

01:04:18Guest:And then, you know, in between each of Tim's films, I did four.

01:04:22Guest:Yeah.

01:04:22Guest:So it was Pee Wee was one.

01:04:24Guest:Yeah.

01:04:24Guest:Beetlejuice was five.

01:04:25Guest:Batman was 10.

01:04:27Guest:Didn't quite make it to 15.

01:04:29Guest:Edward Scissorhands was 14.

01:04:30Guest:And Tim would go, how are you doing four films between each of my films?

01:04:33Guest:And I said...

01:04:34Guest:damn, I have to.

01:04:35Guest:I have to learn how to do this.

01:04:37Guest:I'm learning how to score.

01:04:38Marc:So you just took opportunities that you could deal with.

01:04:41Marc:Anything.

01:04:42Marc:To learn how to do it.

01:04:43Marc:Exactly.

01:04:44Marc:Well, kind of interesting, because I was listening to Midnight Run.

01:04:47Marc:It was almost like, where'd this come from?

01:04:49Marc:This is like a Ry Cooder soundtrack.

01:04:52Marc:You know what I mean?

01:04:53Marc:If you listen to the album that you put out of the soundtracks, Music for a Darkened Theater or whatever...

01:04:59Marc:Like the diversity of sound.

01:05:02Marc:And then all of a sudden, Midnight Run happens.

01:05:04Marc:And I had forgotten how much I remembered that music from that movie.

01:05:08Marc:And I wouldn't associate it with you.

01:05:10Guest:Well, that was always my greatest joy.

01:05:12Guest:And still is.

01:05:13Guest:When there's end credits...

01:05:14Guest:And somebody sees my name and go, I didn't know Danny did that score.

01:05:17Guest:And then that's for me is the big yes.

01:05:20Guest:Really?

01:05:21Guest:Oh, absolutely.

01:05:22Guest:Why?

01:05:22Guest:Because that's my goal.

01:05:25Guest:That's my pleasure.

01:05:26Guest:To not be pigeonholed.

01:05:27Guest:Yeah.

01:05:28Guest:To do something that's surprising.

01:05:29Marc:Well, I guess it must be difficult because you've inspired so many different sounds.

01:05:33Marc:Like you must be in competition with yourself being channeled to other people.

01:05:37Guest:Well, it is weird.

01:05:39Guest:And I come back later and it's like, all right, there's other people who do Beetlejuice better than me.

01:05:44Guest:Right.

01:05:44Guest:And I'm now doing a movie that's kind of like somebody else doing Beetlejuice back at me.

01:05:49Guest:And I even was asked once by director, can you make it more Elfman?

01:05:54Guest:Right.

01:05:54Guest:And I said, honestly, I don't know if I can, because for this particular version of Elfman, there's probably four or five other guys who do it better than me now.

01:06:07Guest:And I'm as Elfman-ish as I can get at this moment.

01:06:12Guest:And it wasn't quite enough.

01:06:14Marc:What did they use as a reference for that?

01:06:16Marc:Batman, probably?

01:06:17Guest:No, I mean, in this particular thing, it was...

01:06:19Guest:You know, it was a comedy.

01:06:22Guest:I don't know.

01:06:24Guest:Maybe it was Beetlejuice.

01:06:25Guest:Maybe it was.

01:06:26Marc:It was interesting because like even with Scrooge that like, I don't know how you sort of tackle it, but like that.

01:06:33Marc:And I don't know that I think I'm just learning in the last few days just from listening to some of your stuff about how it works.

01:06:39Marc:But there in Scrooge, you clearly were like you integrated some Christmas spirit in there that there were.

01:06:47Marc:Yeah, that's the job.

01:06:48Marc:Well, I know, but like the fa-la-la-la-la part, the la-la-la-la-la-la-la, and it gets sort of foreboding because- Easy to turn Christmas into foreboding for me.

01:06:57Guest:Christmas was the most depressing time of the year, every year for me.

01:07:00Guest:As a Jew or just in general?

01:07:02Guest:Well, as a Jew with no Jewish friends.

01:07:03Guest:Right.

01:07:04Guest:Okay.

01:07:04Guest:It was a terrible, terrible time.

01:07:06Guest:Yeah.

01:07:06Guest:I mean, for years afterwards-

01:07:09Guest:I'd hear the beginning of Christmas music in a store, and it was like dark clouds started rolling into my head because I was lonely.

01:07:16Guest:And I pictured all my friends holding hands, singing Christmas carols around the tree with their families, and I was just sitting with my very dull, secular family, not celebrating anything.

01:07:27Guest:Yeah, nothing.

01:07:28Guest:Just waiting for the fucking season to be over so I can get back to business as usual.

01:07:32Marc:So the music was horrible, menacing.

01:07:34Marc:Yeah.

01:07:34Guest:Yeah, it was.

01:07:35Guest:And it wasn't until I had kids that I was like, I embraced Christmas through them because they're so enthusiastic about it.

01:07:44Guest:I said, okay, this is cool.

01:07:45Guest:You know, like they're so excited.

01:07:47Marc:You weren't brought up with any religion, really.

01:07:49Marc:No.

01:07:50Marc:Well, that's good that you learned how to appreciate through the kids.

01:07:54Guest:Oh, yeah, because that's what it's all about.

01:07:56Guest:You know, it's like, I mean, let's face it.

01:07:59Guest:The Jews didn't get it right with Hanukkah competing with Christmas.

01:08:02Guest:The anticipation of going to sleep and all your presents will be under the tree.

01:08:10Guest:Santa brings them in the middle of the night.

01:08:12Guest:That's crazy.

01:08:13Guest:Great shit.

01:08:15Marc:This almost sounds like the sort of backstory to the Halloween.

01:08:23Marc:Nightmare Before Christmas.

01:08:24Guest:Right.

01:08:26Marc:It seems to kind of coincide with your own personal experience.

01:08:29Guest:Yeah.

01:08:30Guest:I mean, I totally.

01:08:32Guest:Look, when I wrote the songs for Nightmare Before Christmas, I related to Jack so much.

01:08:37Guest:Right.

01:08:37Guest:Jack.

01:08:37Guest:I felt like Jack.

01:08:38Guest:Yeah.

01:08:39Guest:Not so much about Christmas.

01:08:41Guest:It was about Oingo Boingo.

01:08:42Guest:Mm-hmm.

01:08:43Guest:Like when you're in a band, when you're the lead singer in a band, that's your kingdom.

01:08:47Guest:That's your world.

01:08:48Guest:You're the king.

01:08:48Guest:And I wanted out for like six, seven years and I didn't know how to get out.

01:08:55Guest:Six out of the 10?

01:08:57Guest:We were together almost 17 years.

01:08:59Guest:my god and but you still work with uh steve bartek yeah forever right yeah yeah my guitarist and um but the point is is i wanted out but i didn't know how yeah and i related to jack yeah because he was like he's in this world they love him in this world but he wants something else and he wants out and he doesn't know how to do it so when i'm writing those songs yeah for jack i was writing for myself yeah yeah that was me

01:09:24Guest:So that was a personal record.

01:09:26Guest:That was a personal record for me.

01:09:28Guest:It totally was.

01:09:29Guest:I related to Jack.

01:09:31Marc:And how do you come up with something like the, I mean, how does it work for you?

01:09:35Marc:How do you come up with the Batman theme?

01:09:38Guest:Oh, that hit me at the worst possible time.

01:09:42Guest:Tim flew me out to England and I was on the Batman set walking around, kind of getting the vibe.

01:09:48Guest:And they played me some footage.

01:09:50Guest:And on the plane on the way home, the thing fucking hits me.

01:09:54Guest:And it's like, what do I do?

01:09:56Guest:I'm on a 747.

01:09:57Guest:How do I do this?

01:10:00Guest:I'm going to forget this all.

01:10:01Guest:I'm going to land and they're going to play some fucking Beatles song or something.

01:10:05Guest:And I'm going to erase everything.

01:10:07Guest:Yeah.

01:10:07Guest:Big eraser.

01:10:08Guest:So I start with my little tape recorder.

01:10:11Guest:I never went anywhere without.

01:10:12Guest:I start running in the bathroom.

01:10:14Guest:Yeah.

01:10:15Guest:And like going, a little bit.

01:10:21Guest:I go back to my seat.

01:10:22Guest:I'm thinking, I'm thinking, 10 minutes later, back in the bathroom.

01:10:25Guest:And I think back in my seat, 10 minutes back in the bathroom.

01:10:28Guest:Because I couldn't do this next to the guy next to me.

01:10:30Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:10:31Guest:Who thinks you're doing blow.

01:10:32Guest:Well, now I open the door and the flight attendants are there.

01:10:36Guest:Sir, can we help you?

01:10:37Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:10:37Guest:No, I'm fine.

01:10:38Guest:I'm fine.

01:10:40Guest:Are you sure?

01:10:40Guest:Are you sick?

01:10:41Guest:No, I'm not sick.

01:10:42Guest:Okay.

01:10:43Guest:Can we get you anything?

01:10:43Guest:No, no.

01:10:44Guest:I'm great.

01:10:45Guest:Ten minutes later, I'm back in the bathroom.

01:10:47Guest:Open the door.

01:10:48Guest:Now there's three flight attendants.

01:10:49Guest:Right.

01:10:50Guest:Sir, are you okay?

01:10:52Guest:And they're probably going...

01:10:54Guest:What the fuck is he doing so frequently?

01:10:56Guest:You can't do that much blow.

01:10:57Guest:Right.

01:10:58Guest:You can't shoot up that often.

01:11:00Guest:What is he doing in there?

01:11:02Guest:And I was like piece by piece working out the Batman score in my head and doing it all with like kind of complex audio notes that I knew how to do.

01:11:10Guest:Yeah.

01:11:11Guest:Where I could stack a chord and kind of create a harmony.

01:11:14Guest:I couldn't grab a napkin.

01:11:15Guest:Right.

01:11:15Guest:I could only write music if I have a keyboard.

01:11:17Guest:Right.

01:11:18Guest:Now, of course, I have a little keyboard, even my phone.

01:11:21Guest:Right.

01:11:21Guest:You know, I have to have some notes in front of me to write.

01:11:23Guest:Right.

01:11:23Guest:I can't just write out of my head.

01:11:25Guest:Oh, to get it started.

01:11:26Guest:Yeah, exactly.

01:11:27Guest:To get all the chords and get the progression.

01:11:29Guest:So I needed to do notes.

01:11:31Guest:And it was all done in the bathroom of a 747, which is loud, by the way.

01:11:35Guest:The 747s, there was a roaring sound.

01:11:37Guest:I get home and sure enough, we land and they play like, yesterday, all my troubles and Batman's gone.

01:11:45Guest:Yeah.

01:11:46Guest:It is like history, like lost this song.

01:11:51Guest:And I run home and I turn on my tape recorder and I hear sound.

01:11:57Guest:Oh, you heard it.

01:12:00Guest:At first I was like, oh no, it's gone.

01:12:04Guest:Then it came back and I said, that's it, that's it, that's it.

01:12:08Guest:I quickly wrote it all down.

01:12:09Guest:That's amazing.

01:12:10Marc:So it's all...

01:12:11Guest:So you can hear all the different layers in your head.

01:12:14Guest:Yeah.

01:12:15Guest:And I knew enough to always have a tape recorder because the car, so many of my ideas I get when I'm driving.

01:12:21Guest:Yeah.

01:12:22Guest:You know, look, L.A., we drive.

01:12:24Guest:Right.

01:12:25Guest:And there's something about getting in the car and driving.

01:12:27Guest:Suddenly, there's the bridge.

01:12:28Guest:There's the chorus.

01:12:30Guest:There's the part of the melody that I couldn't work out.

01:12:33Guest:And it's like, you know, I always had a Sony tape recorder with me 24-7.

01:12:36Marc:Well, the one thing I noticed listening just to like the way these things begin is that so over time you realize that structurally, musically, you're like, because what I heard was like, you're entering this world now.

01:12:53Marc:Right.

01:12:53Marc:That there's something about the lead in to the first bit of music in a film that really sets the stage before almost anything else.

01:13:02Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:13:03Guest:And you're conscious of that.

01:13:04Guest:I dig that.

01:13:04Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:13:05Guest:I love it when there's a title piece and I can set the tone.

01:13:08Guest:Yeah.

01:13:08Guest:Right up at the top.

01:13:09Guest:Yeah.

01:13:13Guest:Beetlejuice.

01:13:14Guest:Yeah.

01:13:15Guest:Audience didn't know what it was.

01:13:17Guest:Right.

01:13:17Guest:And they tried previewing it because it takes 45 minutes for Michael Keaton for Beetlejuice to enter the picture.

01:13:22Guest:Right.

01:13:23Guest:So it was really important.

01:13:24Guest:I understood right at the top that I have to say in the first minute and a half, what's going to happen in 40 minutes?

01:13:32Guest:Like, say, be patient.

01:13:34Guest:This is common.

01:13:35Guest:Right.

01:13:35Guest:Right, right, right.

01:13:36Guest:And the same thing when I was doing To Die For for Gus Van Zandt.

01:13:39Guest:People seemed to be not sure.

01:13:41Guest:Is this a dark comedy or is this really serious?

01:13:45Guest:And I had to say right in the beginning, no, no, no.

01:13:47Guest:Dark comedy.

01:13:48Guest:It's okay.

01:13:49Guest:You can chuckle at this.

01:13:50Marc:Now, do you make these decisions or does this something that you do with the director?

01:13:54Guest:No, no.

01:13:55Guest:Everything's with the director, of course.

01:13:56Guest:I mean, I feel it and I explain it like that.

01:14:00Guest:And Tim was like...

01:14:01Guest:Tim was always like, sure, just go with it.

01:14:05Guest:And Gus was even like, man, you're the composer.

01:14:08Marc:Really?

01:14:09Marc:Yeah.

01:14:09Marc:It's interesting to me that directors generally hire people they know can do the job the way they want them to do it without them having to tell them to do it.

01:14:17Guest:Well, that doesn't keep directors from telling you how to do it frequently.

01:14:23Guest:But in these cases, we were in the same page.

01:14:26Guest:Because otherwise, you know, you can't sell an idea to a director if they don't agree.

01:14:29Guest:Have you ever just been like, you know, fuck it.

01:14:32Guest:I can't do this job.

01:14:34Guest:Who do I fuck to get off this film?

01:14:35Guest:Yeah.

01:14:36Guest:Yeah.

01:14:37Guest:what did i do yeah yeah i've had a couple of those moments of like oh my god this is like and look i'm a masochist any successful composer you meet is a masochist because the pain level on a big film with a neurotic director that's getting squeezed themselves and you got to understand every director starts out with

01:15:01Guest:Really confident.

01:15:03Guest:By the end, when we come on, they're being torn apart.

01:15:06Guest:They're being previewed.

01:15:08Guest:The studio, everybody's coming at them.

01:15:10Guest:So you got to feel for them.

01:15:11Guest:They're in a battle.

01:15:13Guest:Right.

01:15:14Guest:And your job is to support your general, to be support in that battle.

01:15:18Guest:Right.

01:15:18Guest:You're like, OK, I'll be your lieutenant.

01:15:20Guest:I'm right there for you.

01:15:21Guest:Yeah.

01:15:22Guest:But sometimes it's rough.

01:15:24Guest:Yeah.

01:15:25Guest:And occasionally it's so rough that it's like, oh my God, get me out of here.

01:15:30Guest:You know, usually you navigate through.

01:15:32Guest:I've only left a few times where it was like, just, this is going to be, I'm just going to take a fucking gun to my head before this movie's over.

01:15:43Guest:And my pain tolerance on a film is high.

01:15:46Guest:You have to work though.

01:15:48Yeah.

01:15:48Guest:Yeah, he must.

01:15:52Guest:I've had this argument with my wife.

01:15:54Guest:It's like, you're a workaholic.

01:15:55Guest:No, I'm not a workaholic.

01:15:56Guest:I just have a lot of shit I got to get done.

01:15:58Guest:Yeah.

01:16:00Guest:It's different.

01:16:02Guest:Why does she want you to work less?

01:16:03Guest:Yeah.

01:16:04Guest:She's like, come on, take a break.

01:16:05Guest:No, I can't.

01:16:06Guest:I got this, and I got this thing, and I got this commission, and I got to do these, and I'm writing a script, and I'm doing these songs for this show.

01:16:14Guest:And it's just too many things that I want to do.

01:16:18Marc:Well, what's the most satisfying thing that you do?

01:16:20Marc:Oh, man.

01:16:21Marc:I mean, in terms of, like, as a musician at this point, is it these, do you like playing?

01:16:28Marc:Because it seems like...

01:16:29Marc:Between Nightmare Before Christmas, the Batman movies, Pee Wee, and The Simpsons theme, I mean, you've had a profound influence on the subconscious of a generation of people a little younger than me, right?

01:16:44Marc:So you've had this amazing impact culturally.

01:16:47Marc:I mean, The Simpsons theme in and of itself is probably played thousands of times a day somewhere in the world every day.

01:16:55Guest:And I thought nobody would see that show.

01:16:57Guest:Yeah.

01:16:57Guest:Seriously.

01:16:58Guest:It was so weird.

01:17:00Guest:When I saw it, it was like, I'm doing this just for fun.

01:17:02Guest:Yeah.

01:17:02Guest:Because no one's going to see this thing.

01:17:04Marc:But, I mean, I have to imagine that that thing alone has generated a good chunk of income for you.

01:17:09Guest:Well, yeah.

01:17:09Guest:I mean, at first, I was shocked because it's Fox.

01:17:12Guest:Yeah.

01:17:12Guest:And I remember there was a point when I had, like, two animated shows on the network.

01:17:16Guest:Yeah.

01:17:16Guest:I had, like, a Beetlejuice cartoon or a Batman cartoon and The Simpsons.

01:17:19Guest:Yeah.

01:17:20Guest:And, like, each of those cartoons would play.

01:17:21Guest:I'd get, like, $700.

01:17:22Guest:And, like, The Simpsons would play.

01:17:24Guest:I'd get $11.50.

01:17:25Guest:And I called my agent.

01:17:27Guest:I go, what the fuck?

01:17:28Guest:And he says, oh, you know, Fox has a sweetheart deal.

01:17:31Guest:They're not a network.

01:17:33Guest:But what I did was the smartest not knowing it was smart thing I ever did was I sang the Simpsons.

01:17:42Guest:Yeah.

01:17:43Guest:And that was I got into SAG and I sang those three syllables.

01:17:47Guest:Yeah.

01:17:47Guest:And that kept me in income and insured health insurance for the rest of my life.

01:17:52Yeah.

01:17:53Guest:Like who would know?

01:17:54Guest:The Simpsons.

01:17:56Guest:Yeah.

01:17:56Guest:Those three syllables.

01:17:58Guest:Wow.

01:17:58Guest:So that actually generated.

01:18:00Guest:That's crazy.

01:18:01Guest:Quite a bit.

01:18:02Guest:Aside from like the, you know, the smaller revenue that the, but you know, I can't complain at all.

01:18:08Guest:I've got, I mean, considering I expected no one to see the show.

01:18:12Guest:Yeah.

01:18:12Guest:I've gotten a good amount from the Simpsons over many years.

01:18:15Marc:When you look back on, and I don't like this question when I get it, but what are you most proud of?

01:18:22Marc:A nightmare before Christmas, really?

01:18:24Marc:I don't know.

01:18:25Marc:I mean, in terms of life's work, it's hard.

01:18:29Guest:Yeah, that's hard.

01:18:30Guest:And I probably would answer differently on different days.

01:18:34Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:18:35Guest:I mean, nightmare is up there because I worked harder on that than most scores.

01:18:40Guest:That was like a two-year project, not a three-month project.

01:18:43Guest:Oh, you've done all these Tim ones.

01:18:44Guest:You did Sweepy Hollow, too, huh?

01:18:46Guest:Yeah.

01:18:46Guest:That's a crazy movie.

01:18:48Guest:I love that movie.

01:18:49Guest:17 films with him now, I think.

01:18:53Guest:Yeah, Sleepy Hollow was fun.

01:18:54Guest:I really enjoyed that.

01:18:55Guest:Are you guys pals?

01:18:57Guest:Well, I mean, he lives in England.

01:18:58Guest:I live here.

01:18:59Guest:We don't hang out together, but I talk with him.

01:19:01Guest:And he's like a...

01:19:05Guest:Like a relative, like a brother.

01:19:06Guest:You know, we went to a point when I got really mad at him and I left a movie and we didn't speak for over a year.

01:19:12Guest:Oh, really?

01:19:13Guest:And, you know, it's like volatile.

01:19:17Guest:I think it had to happen somewhere in this massively long period of time.

01:19:22Guest:You know, two personalities like us and like me.

01:19:25Guest:And I was more hot-headed back then than I'm better now.

01:19:29Guest:Yeah.

01:19:30Guest:Mellowed a bit.

01:19:31Guest:Mellowed a bit.

01:19:31Guest:But the fact is, in that time, I missed him in the same way that... You know, I've had fights with my brother.

01:19:39Guest:We didn't speak to each other a long period of time.

01:19:41Guest:But at a certain point, that's like, I miss him.

01:19:43Guest:Yeah.

01:19:43Guest:That's my brother.

01:19:44Guest:And it was similar.

01:19:46Guest:Are you guys tight now?

01:19:47Guest:Your brother?

01:19:47Guest:Yeah.

01:19:48Guest:Yeah.

01:19:48Guest:We are.

01:19:49Guest:And now... And when Tim and I...

01:19:51Guest:We've joked we would end up like Hitchcock and Herman.

01:19:54Guest:Yeah.

01:19:55Guest:Because of the famous combination of Alfred Hitchcock and Herman.

01:19:58Guest:And they had a misunderstanding and they never spoke again.

01:20:01Guest:Yeah.

01:20:02Guest:And we were like, we're going to end up like Hitchcock and Herman.

01:20:04Guest:And then we did.

01:20:06Guest:But we came together again and we've never had an issue.

01:20:10Guest:That's nice.

01:20:10Guest:Yeah.

01:20:11Guest:And you seem to work a lot with Ramey, too.

01:20:13Guest:Yeah.

01:20:13Guest:I'm working with him coming up.

01:20:15Guest:Oh, yeah?

01:20:15Guest:Yeah.

01:20:16Guest:Doctor Strange, too.

01:20:17Guest:How's he?

01:20:17Guest:He's nice.

01:20:18Guest:Is he a good guy?

01:20:19Guest:Oh, my God.

01:20:19Guest:Raimi is the nicest guy on the planet.

01:20:22Marc:I like that movie that your wife was in.

01:20:24Marc:Was that the first one?

01:20:26Guest:Simple Plan.

01:20:26Guest:That's where I met her.

01:20:27Marc:Is it?

01:20:27Marc:Yeah.

01:20:28Guest:Yeah.

01:20:29Guest:I like that movie.

01:20:30Guest:Yeah.

01:20:30Guest:I love Simple Plan.

01:20:31Guest:It was really good.

01:20:33Guest:And Billy Bob Thornton was good.

01:20:35Guest:Yeah.

01:20:36Guest:And Bill Paxton.

01:20:37Guest:Bill Paxton.

01:20:37Guest:Yeah.

01:20:38Guest:It was a great little cast, you know?

01:20:39Guest:Yeah.

01:20:40Guest:Did he do that movie, The Gift?

01:20:43Guest:He did The Gift.

01:20:44Guest:Yeah, I didn't work on The Gift.

01:20:46Guest:I have a cameo in The Gift.

01:20:48Guest:You do?

01:20:48Guest:Yeah, which mostly got cut out, thank God, because he put me with a fiddle in a swamp as like a hillbilly fiddler with all this beard.

01:20:57Guest:And Cate Blanchett is on the bridge and I'm supposed to deliver lines.

01:21:03Guest:And I go, no, Sam, don't make me do lines.

01:21:05Guest:No, no, no, buddy, you'll be fine.

01:21:07Guest:Here, I got you a vocal coach because you have to do them in this Appalachian dialect.

01:21:10Guest:And I go, I can't fucking.

01:21:14Guest:And I'm sitting there in the swamp with my fiddle trying to deliver lines.

01:21:19Guest:And I'm fucking it up over and over.

01:21:22Guest:And you're in a swamp.

01:21:23Guest:And I'm in a swamp.

01:21:24Guest:And it was the one point I remember, Scotty, beam me up right now.

01:21:30Guest:Please, just send that beam down and go.

01:21:32Guest:Take me right up to the Enterprise.

01:21:35Guest:I need to get out of here.

01:21:35Guest:But you didn't use it?

01:21:38Guest:They just left me.

01:21:39Guest:They just left me.

01:21:41Guest:And all the actors are sitting there kind of watching the side going, oh, man.

01:21:47Guest:This is a bit part.

01:21:49Guest:It should take five minutes.

01:21:50Guest:And we're all waiting.

01:21:52Guest:Oh, it was the worst.

01:21:53Guest:You forgave them for it?

01:21:55Guest:I forgave them for it.

01:21:55Guest:But I'll never do another acting part in my life.

01:22:00Guest:You did a few, right?

01:22:01Guest:No, I'm the worst actor on the planet.

01:22:03Guest:Oh, the band was in a couple of them.

01:22:05Guest:Yeah, but acting, I can't do.

01:22:08Guest:And I just, if I have to speak lines on camera, every muscle in my face is a separate entity.

01:22:16Guest:It's like I'm a Portuguese man-o-war with all these different organisms.

01:22:19Guest:You get hyper self-conscious and nervous.

01:22:21Guest:My eyes don't know what my mouth, what's my right hand doing?

01:22:24Guest:Oh, shit, what's my left hand doing?

01:22:26Guest:There's so many things to think about.

01:22:27Guest:I know, yeah.

01:22:28Marc:What do I do with my hands?

01:22:29Marc:There's a comedian that talks about that.

01:22:32Guest:Jim Norton, I think.

01:22:34Guest:I don't know how actors act natural on the camera.

01:22:37Guest:You've done it.

01:22:38Guest:I do.

01:22:38Guest:You act really natural.

01:22:40Guest:And I don't get it.

01:22:41Guest:I don't understand.

01:22:42Guest:Acting natural on camera is a beautiful art that is like heart.

01:22:46Guest:For me, that's like it would be as difficult as learning how to become a nuclear physicist.

01:22:51Marc:I guess so.

01:22:51Marc:But do you do anything to do meditate or anything?

01:22:54Guest:I can't really meditate.

01:22:57Guest:When I'm writing, I get into a state that's like that, I think.

01:23:03Marc:But yeah, I don't know what it is.

01:23:05Marc:I think it's just one of those things, either you can do it or you can't, the on-camera thing.

01:23:09Guest:Yeah, it's weird because I see people- It's almost a natural thing.

01:23:25Guest:It's really good, just natural.

01:23:28Marc:It's a weird thing to shut off all that stuff, which I think your brain works the opposite way.

01:23:34Marc:You're turning on a lot of things.

01:23:35Marc:Whereas when you're on a set and I got to just talk to you, you've got to be able to just talk to you and not even...

01:23:43Marc:do this but you look completely relaxed all the time on camera like like there's no camera there like in glow you mean or like on what in uh yeah your show oh my show yeah well that took a while i knew that first season would be like i'd look a little stilted but then it got better i didn't think you look stilted you look just like natural and um i'm always surprised you know it's like sometimes like common you know singers different people like that get them on camera and it's like

01:24:11Guest:They love it.

01:24:14Marc:Yeah.

01:24:16Marc:I have to learn how to love it more.

01:24:18Marc:Because I talk to actors, too.

01:24:19Marc:There are people that really do the thing.

01:24:23Marc:With me, I'm just going to focus on what I'm doing in front of me.

01:24:26Marc:I'm not sitting there going, like, the camera loves me.

01:24:29Marc:And how actors do love scenes.

01:24:33Marc:Like a good love scene with a camera four feet away from you.

01:24:36Marc:I've been thinking about... I've done a couple of those, and I've really got to work on my style with the kissing.

01:24:46Marc:I think you've got to be aware of their stuff.

01:24:48Marc:I don't know how you do it.

01:24:49Marc:All I can say is I'm in awe.

01:24:51Marc:Oh, I don't know how you do what you do, so it all makes sense.

01:24:55Marc:You're writing orchestral things.

01:24:57Marc:I'm trying to figure out how to smoke fish in my house.

01:25:00Guest:Okay, well, good things that we're not being forced to switch careers.

01:25:03Marc:Yeah.

01:25:05I know.

01:25:05Marc:So what's the plan now?

01:25:06Marc:You're going to try to get those gigs back and get on the road and do the orchestra stuff?

01:25:10Guest:I'm just waiting for them to start up again.

01:25:12Guest:They haven't started coming at you?

01:25:13Guest:Well, a little bit.

01:25:14Guest:I mean, we just announced Halloween.

01:25:16Guest:That's the first.

01:25:17Guest:Halloween is the first date, live date.

01:25:20Guest:Where is that at?

01:25:21Guest:That's going to be at, it's called the Bank of California Stadium.

01:25:25Guest:Here?

01:25:26Guest:Yeah.

01:25:26Guest:In L.A.?

01:25:27Guest:Yeah, downtown.

01:25:28Guest:Oh, great.

01:25:29Marc:I'd like to go that you're going to run the movie and play the.

01:25:31Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:25:32Guest:Every song.

01:25:33Guest:Note for note.

01:25:34Marc:And that's when people show up as characters.

01:25:35Guest:They often.

01:25:36Guest:Yeah.

01:25:37Guest:Not always.

01:25:37Guest:And this is going to be in October.

01:25:39Guest:I think the 29th of October.

01:25:41Guest:Yeah.

01:25:42Guest:Halloween weekend.

01:25:43Guest:And that's something you like to do.

01:25:44Guest:Yeah.

01:25:45Guest:You know, the first time I thought it was impossible.

01:25:48Guest:Here's how this started.

01:25:49Guest:It was like inadvertent.

01:25:51Guest:I agree to do the Elfman Burton suites.

01:25:52Guest:And at some point, my agent who was producing, he says, will you sing some songs from Nightmare for the Nightmare suite?

01:25:58Guest:I go, yeah, I'll do that.

01:25:59Guest:But I say it without thinking about it.

01:26:01Guest:Now, six months later, I'm creating all the suites super hard.

01:26:05Guest:And I get to the Nightmare before Christmas and I do this all instrumental.

01:26:08Guest:And I call him up.

01:26:09Guest:I said, did I say I was going to sing?

01:26:11Guest:He goes, yeah.

01:26:12Guest:I go, oh, I'm not going to sing.

01:26:14Guest:I'm not going to sing.

01:26:14Guest:Well, they've already advertised it.

01:26:17Guest:Oh, fuck.

01:26:18Guest:Got to sing.

01:26:18Guest:And then I hadn't sung in 18 years.

01:26:21Guest:Wow.

01:26:22Guest:And I'm at Albert Hall doing a show that had never rehearsed in front of an audience.

01:26:27Guest:No trials.

01:26:28Guest:In London?

01:26:29Guest:In London.

01:26:30Guest:No idea if any of it's going to work.

01:26:31Guest:And I'm going to sing for the first time in 18 years.

01:26:34Guest:Wow.

01:26:34Guest:And I'm in front of the fucking stage door and going, I'm not going to be able to do this.

01:26:38Guest:I froze up.

01:26:40Guest:It's like, I am just going to hit a bar and disappear.

01:26:44Guest:And they won't know where to find me.

01:26:46Guest:I mean, I don't know what I'm going to do.

01:26:47Guest:I can't walk out there.

01:26:48Guest:And Helena Bonham Carter, bless her heart, she was doing Sally.

01:26:51Guest:And she was sitting on the floor, all kind of loose and floppy, getting into ragdoll character.

01:26:56Guest:And she goes, Denny?

01:26:58Guest:I go, yeah.

01:26:59Guest:She goes, what's the matter?

01:27:00Guest:I go, I don't think I could walk out there.

01:27:02Guest:She goes, Denny?

01:27:03Guest:What the fuck?

01:27:06Guest:And that's all I needed to hear.

01:27:08Guest:It was like, exactly.

01:27:10Guest:Thank you.

01:27:11Guest:What the fuck?

01:27:14Guest:And I walked out there and I had the best time of my life.

01:27:19Guest:Because they all love it.

01:27:20Guest:But I didn't know that.

01:27:22Guest:I'd never done it before.

01:27:23Guest:Of course, yeah.

01:27:23Guest:And I'd never even performed in England.

01:27:25Guest:Yeah.

01:27:26Guest:I had images.

01:27:27Guest:The way my mind works is that I had an image of being tarred and feathered and being driven out of town on a rail and

01:27:35Guest:That's how I imagine the English audience.

01:27:37Guest:Sounds like part of a Tim Burton movie.

01:27:39Guest:Yeah, exactly.

01:27:40Guest:Yeah.

01:27:40Guest:And I get out there and the audience was, oh my God, I forgot what it was like to have an audience that's, I don't need a safety net.

01:27:49Guest:They're my safety net.

01:27:50Guest:If I fuck up...

01:27:52Guest:They'll be fine with it.

01:27:53Guest:It was like this feeling of like, it's okay.

01:27:56Guest:Do your thing.

01:27:57Guest:If you goof up, do it again.

01:27:58Guest:You'll be fine with it.

01:28:00Guest:And I'm so grateful to them.

01:28:03Guest:That audience in London at the Albert Hall got me rewired that I could come out on stage again.

01:28:10Guest:I can do this.

01:28:12Guest:And that has stuck with you.

01:28:13Guest:It stuck with me.

01:28:14Guest:I forgot how great it feels when you connect with your audience and you feel it's okay to make a mistake.

01:28:23Marc:Yes.

01:28:24Marc:Yeah, it's great to have an audience and then to realize they're forgiving and they love what you do.

01:28:30Marc:Exactly right.

01:28:32Guest:And it's like they totally forgive you if you screw something up and you have to recover.

01:28:37Guest:Yeah.

01:28:37Marc:Yeah, yeah.

01:28:39Marc:It's almost better because then they're sort of like they saw something happen that didn't happen anywhere.

01:28:43Marc:Exactly.

01:28:45Guest:And as my wife says, you're going out there without a net.

01:28:48Guest:Enjoy that because that's the beauty of what you're doing.

01:28:50Guest:And then I realized at that moment, they are my net.

01:28:53Guest:Yeah.

01:28:53Guest:And it's beautiful.

01:28:54Guest:Well, good, man.

01:28:55Marc:Well, I hope that a lot of that happens in the near future.

01:28:58Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:28:59Marc:It was great talking to you, man.

01:29:00Guest:Hey, it was really fun.

01:29:01Guest:I really enjoyed this.

01:29:02Guest:Thanks, pal.

01:29:02Guest:Thank you.

01:29:03Guest:Yeah.

01:29:05Marc:That guy is busy, man.

01:29:11Marc:He's busy.

01:29:13Marc:Danny Elfman, Big Mess.

01:29:15Marc:The record will be out.

01:29:16Marc:The record.

01:29:17Marc:The new album.

01:29:18Marc:Whatever.

01:29:18Marc:It's not a CD.

01:29:19Marc:It's not a record.

01:29:20Marc:It's out next Friday.

01:29:22Marc:June 11th.

01:29:23Marc:You can get it wherever you get the music.

01:29:25Marc:Also, L.A.

01:29:27Marc:people are people willing to travel.

01:29:29Marc:His live Nightmare Before Christmas stage concert is back this year.

01:29:32Marc:That's on Friday, October 29th at Bank of California Stadium.

01:29:38Marc:Okay.

01:29:39Marc:Okay.

01:29:40Marc:Let's play.

01:30:19Marc:Boomer lives.

01:30:40Marc:Monkey and LaFonda.

01:30:45Marc:Cat angels everywhere.

01:30:48Thank you.