Episode 1226 - Kristin Hersh
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it how's it going what's happening today's guest kristin hirsch is um well she's still in a
Marc:Throwing Muses, 50 Foot Wave, her solo album.
Marc:She's written several books and her new memoir is called Seeing Sideways, a memoir of music and motherhood.
Marc:I remember her from way back when I was in Boston.
Marc:I remember Throwing Muses when they played this tiny little corner of a fucking second room in a bar upstairs.
Marc:I just remember seeing him with eight other people and five of us there from the restaurant that Tanya Donnelly worked at, which is the same one I worked at and watched him.
Marc:It's hard not to be mesmerized.
Marc:by uh kristen hirsch but i really haven't talked to her or i never did i never maybe met her once but i haven't seen her in 30 years haven't really uh yeah i kind of went through her book a little bit and kind of tried to get a handle on it but it's weird when you don't see somebody and they're kind of stuck in the amber of your memory and that's how they are and that's how they were but it was interesting to talk to her and kind of feel out where she is now and talk about the new book and the past and
Marc:how she got here, and then afterwards, her and her dude, her bass player, were staying around the corner.
Marc:I invited them for dinner.
Marc:They had dinner.
Marc:It was some of the first socializing I did post-vaccine.
Marc:Sammy the Kitten, Sammy the Red, Lord Samuel, is doing fine.
Marc:He's growing.
Marc:Him and Buster are getting along.
Marc:They're grooming each other.
Marc:They're hanging out.
Marc:They couldn't like each other more.
Marc:It's a little difficult for me.
Marc:Because me and Buster had a thing going, and now that thing is diminished a bit because Buster and Sammy have a thing going.
Marc:But that, I have to remember, is why I got the kitten, because I didn't want Buster to get bored and to be sad or to be lonely.
Marc:So now he's got this friend, and I'm the one who's out.
Marc:I'm the one who's persona like, who's that guy?
Marc:I'm the guy sitting there going like, what about me, fellas?
Marc:What about me?
Marc:But it's OK.
Marc:It's all right.
Marc:I'm sort of trying to get back into the mindset of it's very hard, man.
Marc:My days are long because I get up.
Marc:I still get up.
Marc:I'm still honoring the pattern of lockdown.
Marc:I think a lot of us realize and I think I said this before that, you know, in order to get through it, you've got to get some routines going.
Marc:I get up at 6.15, 6.30, do 15 minutes of yoga, do 15 minutes of meditation, make my coffee, and get jacked out of my fucking brain on coffee.
Marc:And I just keep wondering what's wrong with me every day when I just crap out.
Marc:At like 2 in the afternoon, literally go into some sort of borderline coma.
Marc:And I'm like, is this diabetes?
Marc:Is it cancer?
Marc:Is it heart failure?
Marc:Is it my organs?
Marc:What's going on?
Marc:Maybe it's because you drank a quart of coffee at 7.30 in the morning.
Marc:And worked out.
Marc:Maybe it's that.
Marc:Maybe that's just your midday coma and you shouldn't judge it so harshly.
Marc:I don't know, man.
Marc:Everything could change.
Marc:Everything can change in an instant.
Marc:Sometimes it could just take a tragedy.
Marc:Sometimes it could just take a song.
Marc:Sometimes it can just take a text from somebody or a call.
Marc:Everything can change in an instant.
Marc:Your feelings, the way you see something.
Marc:And all that stuff is just the brain doing its thing.
Marc:That's what I'm learning about meditation, pushing those thoughts aside.
Marc:I'd always heard that thing, you know, feelings aren't facts.
Marc:I know, but I can feel them.
Marc:They pass, they do.
Marc:And I think also, ultimately, it's just a difficult week, man.
Marc:This is a difficult week.
Marc:A year ago today, you know, Lynn Shelton was sick and we didn't know what she was sick with.
Marc:And it was scary.
Marc:And we were, she was online doing video doctor's appointments and
Marc:on antibiotics, trying to treat it like a virus.
Marc:And a year ago today, I was scared and we agreed that she should go to the doctor.
Marc:And not a day goes by where I don't think about that week, that day, that woman, all that ended there.
Marc:But I guess the marker, the year, the anniversary makes it very... It's sort of like a year ago.
Marc:This is what was happening.
Marc:Not like, oh, that happened a while back.
Marc:It's like one year ago.
Marc:How could that not have an effect?
Marc:I guess I should give myself a break, as they say in the self-care racket.
Marc:The existential hammer of mortality.
Marc:Heartbreak.
Marc:How hard do I want to not feel the pain of sadness?
Marc:What will my brain do to help me do that?
Marc:Will I make someone else sad?
Marc:Will I hurt someone else's feelings?
Marc:Will I rage at the world?
Marc:Where does it come from for all of us?
Marc:What's the big deal?
Marc:When are we going to realize that we're all fucking hurt and that we're hurting each other and that we're being fucking divided and conquered daily by the rackets, the desire miners, the people that want discomfort and pain and chaos to keep the engines going and
Marc:We're just the fuel.
Marc:Our feelings and lives are just the fuel that they run money through.
Marc:Sorry.
Marc:I mean, I'm sad.
Marc:I'm sad about the anniversary of somebody I loved passing.
Marc:But the other stuff I said is true.
Marc:All right.
Marc:This was an exciting talk for me.
Marc:It kind of went, she's intense, man.
Marc:Kristen Hirsch, her book, Seeing Sideways, a memoir of music and motherhood is available now.
Marc:You know her music from The Throwing Muses, 50 Foot Wave, her solo work.
Marc:I was excited to talk to her and see her after 35 years or so.
Marc:This is me talking to the amazing Kristen Hirsch.
Marc:What are you doing in California?
Guest:I come to see you.
Marc:That was it?
Marc:That's the whole trip?
Guest:No, I'm living with my little surfer kid.
Guest:My youngest is a pro surfer.
Marc:Where?
Guest:In Encinitas.
Marc:How far is that from here?
Guest:As the crow flies, it's an hour and a half.
Guest:As I drive in my fucked up truck, it's like eight hours.
Marc:Eight hours?
Guest:Well, you know the five.
Marc:It's unpredictable.
Marc:It's the worst.
Marc:It's the worst drive.
Guest:So I took the train.
Marc:You did?
Marc:It's very romantic.
Marc:I've never taken it.
Marc:Is it romantic by yourself still?
Guest:it's quiet yeah and it does that thing that i'm taking the train into new york yeah it starts off you're just like i am in every old movie that ever was and i am so fancy right now i'm gonna wear my pearls into the dining car and then it just becomes jersey garbage oh yeah just it does that here too i was so sad it starts out like i'm sorry and it's not your fault i'm sorry it's like 1930 for anymore
Guest:It was in my head for a minute and I'll take that.
Guest:And then it crumbled.
Marc:I'm sorry no one dressed up for the dining car.
Guest:I was too scared to stand up and look for the dining car, but that's okay.
Guest:I kept it in my head.
Marc:So that's the train that goes from here all the way up to like where?
Marc:Seattle or something or no?
Guest:I wish.
Guest:That's my favorite five drive.
Guest:But as long as you skip the Cowschwitz part.
Marc:That's the worst, man.
Marc:That stinky part.
Marc:Is Encinitas that far up?
Marc:It's not that far up, is it?
Marc:You don't go past the stinky part, do you?
Marc:Encinitas is- Cowschwitz.
Marc:Where did that come from?
Marc:From touring there over and over and over again.
Marc:Is that your name for it?
Guest:You become a vegetarian for like four hours.
Marc:I think there's hogs there too, isn't there?
Guest:And there's pain.
Guest:There's just man-made pain.
Marc:Yeah, every burger you eat is just a patty of fear and pain.
Guest:No, I'm at Encinitas, which is between here and San Diego.
Marc:Oh, so it's down that way.
Guest:Yeah, he has to be there because he shapes boards and he's in comps and all that.
Marc:How old is that kid?
Guest:He just turned 18.
Marc:And that's your youngest kid?
Guest:Yes, which means this is empty nest day.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is it sad?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's horrifying.
Guest:When my editor pitched the idea for this book, he said, if I've timed this right, you'll be facing empty nest as soon as it's published.
Guest:And I flipped him off.
Guest:I was like, that's awful.
Guest:And he just waited and said, you can do it.
Marc:Yeah, you'll be okay?
Guest:He didn't say that.
Marc:Here come the really sad songs.
Yeah.
Guest:Crumble songs.
Marc:The dusty crumbling songs.
Marc:So it was your idea to do this book like this?
Marc:Or your editor pitched some idea to you?
Guest:You know what?
Guest:I don't think I have ever had an idea.
Guest:I just throw myself into other suggestions.
Marc:No, you have ideas.
Marc:You write impulsive words.
Marc:I absolutely do.
Marc:Maybe not broader ideas, but you definitely...
Marc:There's things coming out of you a lot.
Marc:Children, words, songs.
Guest:That I will stand by.
Guest:I need a troll under my bridge to the external world.
Guest:And people like Idea Men are that troll to me.
Guest:And so when he said, I want a book about raising four boys on a tour bus, I said, well, you've met children and you've met buses, so...
Guest:It sounds like a good idea, but they can be a little samey.
Guest:This would be a 30-year time span, whereas my first book was one year.
Guest:The second was 10 years.
Guest:This is 30.
Guest:And he just kind of waited again and said, you can do it.
Marc:Well, it's so nice because I didn't have time to read the whole book, but the parts I read, I mean, you're a real writer, so it's writerly, and it's beautifully written.
Marc:I've read some pretty matter-of-fact memoirs lately, but your sort of sense of space and feeling from being a songwriter for so long is very creatively informed.
Yeah.
Guest:You know, it's funny that you can hear that because you play.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's very musical, right?
Guest:Sure, yeah.
Guest:It's all rhythm and melody.
Guest:Yeah, rhythm, rhythm, rhythm.
Guest:Impressionistic, almost lyrics.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I hate the term prose poetry, but I got to say it approaches sort of using your own vocabulary as a sonic vocabulary instead of conversational English.
Guest:And I love that.
Guest:And so I buried myself in it for about five years.
Marc:Is it a five-year book?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, man.
Yeah.
Guest:It should take you five years to read it if you're being polite.
Marc:Yeah, if you really want to absorb.
Guest:Just to make it worth my time.
Guest:But it was lovely.
Guest:I've been getting up at 3 a.m.
Guest:and throwing myself back in time.
Guest:It's a good...
Marc:technique because that's also makes it uh you know through that filter of experience and whatever kind of wisdom or just memory to to sort of uh you know conjure that uh is a poetic exercise it is and it's kind of awful and it's kind of wonderful and i find that i'm a much better writer when i'm writing about something i enjoyed you enjoy the bad stuff i just kind of want to skip over it's like
Guest:I can make this over now.
Marc:There's no heartbreak in this book?
Marc:It's hard to believe.
Guest:There's a lot of heartbreak.
Guest:I'm so sorry.
Guest:Maybe you can put off the end for a while, but it comes and goes.
Guest:I wrote a book about Vic Chestnut, which had heartbreak only at the end.
Guest:Because he dies.
Guest:And I almost left that out because I thought it was almost anticlimactic compared to what he brought to this plane to just suddenly cut it all off.
Guest:Might be more beautiful if the book just ended.
Guest:And yet he chose that place.
Guest:death and i thought well all right this is the last call you're going to make in my life is okay you you're going to write the end because you wrote your own end but in this book the heartbreak is scattered throughout all the kids are still alive life goes on
Guest:Pretty much.
Marc:I was worried because I just dipped into the, I don't know which kids section it was, but it was in New Orleans.
Marc:It began in New Orleans.
Marc:And then I went on a hike this morning.
Marc:I listened to Grotto about halfway through.
Marc:Aw, thank you.
Marc:Well, that's sort of like the time, right?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I lose track of time.
Guest:I'm not real great with time.
Marc:It was just coincidental that it seems like some of the experiences that were in the songs in Grotto were in that chapter.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:Wow, you're amazing.
Guest:I couldn't do that.
Marc:Well, I mean, you knew that, no?
Marc:I listened to the first Throwing Muses album, or the second one, and then the most recent one.
Marc:You ever done that?
Guest:Oh, God, no.
Guest:I would never listen to the first Throwing Muses record.
Guest:I couldn't listen to it then.
Marc:It's the second one.
Marc:It was the second one.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Well, I don't listen to any of them, really, but... Huh?
Guest:I don't listen to any of them.
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:How could you?
Marc:I mean, you've done... Like, you must have written a thousand songs since then.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we're sort of an ongoing entity.
Guest:We don't always publish everything we do or record it.
Marc:We like to keep that... The evolving band, you mean?
Marc:Or you?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Everybody, it is me.
Guest:I have three entities, solo, 50-foot wave, and throwing music.
Guest:We're all sort of playing in an ongoing fashion to keep that circular breathing action familiar, I suppose.
Guest:You never go through the period of having to unload excess baggage before you get to the class.
Guest:clearer vision right right right and then when it's time to share the songs kind of make that apparent and you you know raise the money to record and then you release it and that's not even for everybody what the uh the the music or the releasing or the acting the act of it the record yeah yeah well none of it really you hope that it's if it's a good medicine it's gonna work for those who need it and hurt those who don't
Marc:right yeah just leave it alone yeah you want songs to hurt people if you don't get this go fuck yourself well it's gonna happen so you might as well be cool with it well i mean i'm always a big fan like because like as as it seems like in the later versions i'm a big fan of a three chord psychedelia so like there's a certain three chord magic to the build of psychedelic sounds that's real i know it's real
Marc:It's like, I know, it's like a spell.
Marc:I don't know what, but it always works.
Guest:I was so angular for so long, and I wanted pointy, and I wanted raw, and then I realized, well, that's not me.
Guest:That was those songs.
Guest:And the last throwing music record, like a couple years ago.
Guest:Yeah, that's the one I listened to.
Guest:This year?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It is very, hypnotic is the nice word for it.
Marc:Boring would be the bad one.
Marc:It's not boring because you do the, it's sort of like, hey, we're in it.
Marc:And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, we're changing.
Guest:But it's subtle, right?
Guest:I'm getting nicer in my crumbling.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You are, yeah, yeah.
Guest:There's definitely a three-quarter psychedelia thing going on there.
Marc:Yeah, I like it.
Marc:Well, I mean, what's interesting is that, you know, having...
Marc:been around when the beginning started, is that whatever the Hirsch portal is into the wellspring of melancholic darkness, you've kept it open.
Marc:It's uniquely yours all the way through.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I wouldn't know that.
Marc:You wouldn't know that.
Marc:No, why would you?
Marc:But even in the acoustic stuff, you come through.
Marc:Even in the way you pluck a guitar, there's something that comes all the way through.
Guest:No shit.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Can I swear?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No shit.
Marc:Yeah, for sure.
Guest:That's interesting.
Marc:Why would you think about it?
Marc:You just kind of keep going?
Guest:I do, and I don't know how to look back.
Guest:I can let my drummers request a song that they will call a cover.
Marc:Yeah, of yours?
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Because they take issue with the fact that I choose recording entities according to the guitars.
Guest:I write 50-foot wave songs on the Les Paul, the SG, throwing muses on the telly or the strat.
Marc:The angular stuff is the telly and the strat.
Guest:I suppose so, right?
Guest:Because that's that sound.
Marc:And the muddier stuff is the Les Paul.
Guest:And heavy.
Marc:And the crunch is the SG.
Yeah.
Guest:And then there's Collings Acoustics that I wrote the solo stuff on.
Guest:And Bill Collings just died.
Guest:So maybe that's all over now.
Guest:And so maybe my drummer's point is a good one.
Marc:Does the guitar die with the guy?
Guest:Well, I can't get any more.
Marc:Well, I mean, what do you do with them?
Guest:I bury them.
Guest:I travel around the world and I kill them.
Guest:I thought you could keep it alive like a car.
Marc:You're supposed to.
Marc:I mean, there's some Gibsons around from the 20s.
Guest:That's what I said to these guitar nerds.
Guest:They're out in the woods just kind of playing in wood with their mullets.
Guest:They're like, oh no, you killed it.
Marc:Would you play it too hard?
Marc:Do you not keep it moist?
Guest:Some guy at a radio station, I didn't bring a guitar, and they wanted me to play a song.
Guest:And they said, well, you can use Jack's guitar.
Guest:He's got one.
Guest:And he was about to hand it to me, and he suddenly stopped and took it back and said, do you have acid sweat?
Guest:What?
Guest:I was like to him, what?
Guest:Like an alien?
Marc:Acid blood, acid sweat.
Guest:It's possible that's what I did to him and they died, but they really don't play right anymore and they're right.
Marc:Well, I'm sure you can get yourself another brand of acoustic guitar.
Guest:Well, I'm just being a sissy.
Guest:Bill actually watched me play and built these guitars for me and put me in line over Lyle Lovett and said, you're going to get the first one of these trees that falls down.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:He was one of my proofs of genius.
Guest:He didn't play guitar.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He didn't play guitar?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But he built them.
Marc:Talk about howling.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:His was resonant wood and the way acoustics move and the way players' hands work and passion turned into waves and it's like, right on.
Guest:So he was like, he was a receiver.
Yeah.
Guest:I suppose so.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I love it when people's genius is very narrow.
Guest:The parameters sort of define themselves.
Marc:I'm jealous of them.
Marc:So not only are they the genius, but they know exactly what to do with it.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Not some sort of like broken vessel scrambling around.
Guest:Now you're crumbling again.
Marc:Proud of pieces.
Marc:This is a thing I did.
Guest:I am a puzzle.
Marc:Solve it.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:How's everyone doing on the me?
Guest:Yeah, the songs definitely were consistently, what did you call it?
Guest:Melancholy.
Marc:Darkness?
Marc:Melancholy.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:There's a lot of yelling.
Guest:It didn't sound melancholic.
Marc:Well, I'm trying to think.
Marc:I think the last time I saw you was probably like...
Marc:35 years ago it was a weird thing and I was trying to think of where it was while I was hiking up the hill because we had some sort of common past you and I I like I lived in Boston I worked at edibles and I worked there I remember edibles yeah I worked there aww that's great I remember those walks I was just I had spiral eyes back then what does that mean
Guest:Well, my eyes were spinning around in my head.
Guest:I wasn't seeing right.
Guest:I was straddling this plane and another.
Guest:Yeah, what was the other plane?
Guest:We'll not call that crazy, but music.
Marc:It was just... Well, I saw you guys.
Marc:It must have been 84, 85, and I think it was in an upstairs room.
Marc:There was a bar and then a room, and there was no stage.
Marc:You were on floor level.
Marc:I want to say it was the Canvara pub.
Guest:It's possible.
Marc:And, you know, it was before anything.
Marc:And it was kind of amazing.
Marc:It was just me and 10 people, like four people from work, that kind of thing.
Marc:Thank you for that.
Guest:That's so sweet.
Guest:I wanted to stay there.
Marc:And I was like, they're going places.
Guest:You're so nice.
Marc:She's weird and good.
Guest:I didn't want to go anywhere.
Guest:I wanted to move into the van and go there.
Guest:You know, I always had a problem with the...
Guest:The going places thing.
Guest:I still get a stomachache when I got to release something.
Guest:And I think, no.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Don't take it.
Guest:Don't shine a light on it.
Guest:Now it's shame.
Guest:It was so beautiful a minute ago.
Marc:Now it's going to be judged and I have to worry.
Guest:Yeah, like the book today.
Guest:Yeah, it was personal.
Guest:I do the same thing with interviews.
Guest:I'll have a nice conversation with a dude and then he writes it down and publishes it.
Marc:I feel betrayed.
Marc:Well, you know, then they can, but in writing, they can just pull pieces out.
Guest:They can.
Marc:When you talk, you know, it's kind of straight up.
Guest:I know, and when I make a record, it's my fault, and I do love it, and it's love, but love is not very popular.
Guest:Lake is real in.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:You know, a million likes is way better than one love, that thing.
Guest:I wanted the one love and just in the van, and I got it.
Guest:It was a horrible roller coaster of anti-corporate.
Marc:So you never worked at Edibles, is that what you're telling me?
No.
Guest:That's a long way of saying.
Guest:No, I didn't work at Edible.
Guest:I was working at a health food store because they let me work in the back room and just put little things in bags and put stickers on them.
Guest:That was on the island, Aquidneck Island.
Marc:Where's that?
Guest:In Rhode Island.
Marc:Oh, is that where you grew up?
Guest:I'm from Georgia.
Marc:Really?
Guest:And then, yeah, my philosophy professor, dad, dude, got a job up north.
Guest:Yeah, that's where I met my bandmates.
Marc:You're from Atlanta?
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:But when did you leave Atlanta?
Uh-huh.
Marc:I was a kid.
Marc:So you went back and built, and got to know Vic?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:Oh, and Vic and I just fell together because of the music business.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Guest:We toured together.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:But when you find somebody who is on, not the same page, but a similar one.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He had that kind of, this is the devil thing that I had.
Guest:And this is heaven.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And this devil heaven is a cliff and we got to jump off.
Guest:It was, sounds kind of,
Guest:melodramatic but it was only dramatic you know i mean it hit real hard and so we clung to each other yeah i was a refuge in the business that is not very much like that yeah i remember there was like in so you came up as a kid and then you you grew up in rhode island in newport or no where was it yeah i can't i have i think i've only been there once in my life
Guest:It's pretty.
Marc:Yeah, it is, right?
Marc:And they got that really richy-rich area, right?
Guest:Well, I wouldn't know that.
Marc:Well, wasn't there big mansions?
Marc:I thought they made that up.
Guest:Yeah, Grey Gatsby.
Guest:It was richy-rich, but it's the poorest county in the state.
Marc:But on the beach are these old-ass mansions, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Right.
Marc:That's what I remember.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:That's kind of cool.
Guest:It's got a gothic thing.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's got an Irish kind of drama in the air.
Guest:It's real salty and misty.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:That's great, though, right?
Guest:It is great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was not there anymore.
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:I know.
Marc:But then, so you met.
Marc:How did you meet Tanya?
Guest:Just school.
Guest:There were only like four people in Newport.
Guest:They were all in my band.
Yeah.
Marc:But you knew each other from elementary school?
Guest:Maybe just after.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Our parents got married for a couple of years.
Marc:Your parents married you?
Guest:My mother married her father for like two or three years.
Guest:So we were like sisters for a second.
Guest:And we looked just alike so we would fuck with people like, oh, we're step twins.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a thing.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:So that was kind of racy.
Marc:Seems like it kind of something went down, huh?
Guest:I had only a few people on the island, like I say.
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Eventually you're going to get to everybody.
Guest:Someone got to marry each other.
Marc:Everyone's going to get their turn.
Guest:Well, why did you leave?
Marc:I just was there because I went to school there.
Marc:I went to school out in Milton for a year and then I went to BU for like four years.
Marc:And then I left and I came out here and I got fucked up on drugs and I went back.
Marc:So I kind of started doing comedy back there in like 88.
Marc:And then I was around.
Marc:Comedy time.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, but in college, it was definitely a music time.
Marc:I wasn't that engaged with it, but I saw a few people.
Marc:I was friends with, you remember the Causeway Street Loft?
Marc:Those lofts, that gang down there, there were some bands, the Cave Dogs, Mark River, those guys I kind of knew.
Marc:But then I went back to Boston, restarted again.
Marc:I was there on and off for seven or eight years, and then I just left it.
Marc:I never go back.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's weird.
Marc:I just don't go back.
Marc:It's not the same place we were at.
Guest:Time and place are very different.
Guest:I loved being a teenager there and playing with seven or eight bands all night, and none of us were headlining.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In fact, the headliner kind of missed out on the bulk of the crowd.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Bands like Pixies and Dinosaur and...
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We just played to celebrate each other's invention.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And as you know, invention is suspect in just about every sphere.
Guest:So there was a very supportive network there.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:No competition that I could see.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Everyone was so different, too.
Marc:I mean.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:I mean, that was the weird thing.
Marc:Like dinosaur pixies, you guys.
Marc:I remember Buffalo Tom.
Marc:Volcano Suns.
Guest:Volcano Suns.
Volcano Suns.
Marc:Salem 66.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Emily Kaplan and Beth Kaplan.
Marc:Beth Kaplan was in it.
Marc:Emily managed them.
Marc:Emily worked at Edibles.
Marc:Edibles, it was like a musician's kind of place to work.
Guest:Ah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And they were the other women.
Guest:I had no idea they were going to call us female.
Guest:None whatsoever.
Marc:That they were going to call you female?
Marc:That that was going to be a label?
Guest:That had never occurred to me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then they would get pissed at me because the drummer was a dude.
Guest:I was so confused.
Guest:It's like, why didn't you hire a woman to play drums?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Dave's not a woman.
Guest:I don't know how to explain this to you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It wasn't a hiring situation.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:We're banned.
Guest:This is a volunteer situation.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:We're lucky to have a drummer that fits what we do.
Guest:But I remember saying on 66, they knew they were women.
Guest:I just, I didn't realize that about us.
Marc:Well, didn't you?
Marc:You had a dude bass player too, right?
Marc:At the beginning?
Marc:No.
Guest:No, Leslie was a lady, and then there was a dude.
Guest:I don't know, throwing music is just a word for a certain kind of music that I write on Les Paul.
Marc:Right, now.
Guest:Sorry, on Strat or Telly.
Guest:But on my last record, I had to sell my guitars to finish it, which is a kind of gift of the Magi situation.
Guest:That's another reason my system is going to be fucked.
Marc:Wait a minute, you had to sell your guitars to finish which record?
Guest:Possible Dust Clouds, my last solo record.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, when I decided to break with corporate and in the industry, the recording industry, I knew what I was taking on.
Guest:And it's all been experimenting after that.
Guest:i knew it was not for me i wasn't gonna ever play product instead of music i wasn't gonna turn my back on women and do what we all know you're supposed to do you know the fashion and flirting yeah looking at the camera like you want to fuck it and all that yeah i can't i couldn't sleep and if you put i know it's a win but i couldn't put myself before my convictions and
Guest:Really, if you are in, you're going to be out next year.
Guest:And I wanted to work forever.
Guest:And so working in the corner forever is a troubleshooting exercise forever.
Guest:And so I'm listener supported, which is awesome.
Guest:But it also is like making a film.
Guest:You raise money and then you do what you can.
Guest:You raise more money and then do what you can.
Guest:And it takes me three to five years to finish a record now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm always kind of piggybacking projects.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it hasn't slowed down our schedule at all.
Marc:So when did you start playing?
Guest:At all?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I was nine.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I took about 10 years of classical guitar.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:So you knew how to do that?
Guest:I did.
Guest:And it was a beautiful hobby.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And if you've ever studied that kind of sheet music, it looks like ants on a page.
Marc:I still just want to learn how to finger pick properly.
Marc:I can't fucking do it.
Guest:Do what you are.
Guest:No, I'm doing that.
Guest:You don't have to do what they're doing.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I've seen you.
Marc:I kind of do, that's all I do.
Marc:I got my pentatonix.
Marc:I'm all set.
Guest:That's beautiful.
Guest:But, you know, this kind of wrecked my playing because I wanted to, I was tasked with something different, which was.
Marc:The classical wrecked your playing?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I learned so many rules and I got so deeply embedded in pushing through them that I was kind of coming at it from the wrong angle.
Guest:It would have been better for me to pick up a guitar as if I found it on a desert island.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:I had started writing songs when I was nine.
Marc:Disturbing songs?
Guest:They disturb me now, if that counts.
Guest:But then I got hit by a car, and I had my leg... How old were you when you got hit by a car?
Marc:I was a teenager.
Marc:Do you remember getting hit by a car?
Guest:Well, I had an odd...
Guest:relationship with trauma I would break off so that there was another part of me that experienced trauma and that was music to me so yeah it was always a little disturbing and in this accident my leg came off and my face came off and I had a triple concussion and I was in the hospital thinking I was hearing industrial noise like machines and
Guest:I asked the nurses what it was, and they kept saying, oh, there's the kid next door, his TV and stuff.
Guest:And then it took me about a month to be in the hospital to realize, no, this is something that just happened to me.
Guest:And the sounds began to organize into different vocabulary with which I was familiar, and that was throwing muses material.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:So it had always been happening.
Marc:Lucky it wasn't industrial music.
LAUGHTER
Marc:Sounds like it could have went either way.
Marc:Could have been The Throne Muses or Eisenstadt and Newbott.
Marc:I wouldn't have been saddled with this.
Guest:It would have been better.
Guest:But yeah, I was always carrying that alternate personality.
Marc:So, but how long did that sort of, how long did you hear that?
Guest:Until about five years ago, which I did not invite.
Guest:I don't like strangeness very much.
Guest:I was a biology, immunology major.
Guest:I grew up on a commune, so I like things to make sense.
Guest:Where's the commune?
Guest:Acid in New England.
Marc:Which parent did that?
Guest:They both did.
Guest:And I don't think they called it that.
Guest:It was just home, but it was a big barn in the woods full of hippies, and they grew pot plants on the roof.
Marc:Was this before he took the job as a professor?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, so this is my foundational years.
Marc:Oh, man.
Marc:So you're just this, what, a three-year-old in a barn with a bunch of dirty hippies?
Yes.
Guest:Well, I guess they were dirty.
Guest:I didn't notice I was a dirty three-year-old.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I say dirty hippies with love.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I got love for the hippies.
Guest:I do, too, but it took a minute.
Guest:And I am one.
Guest:I have to admit it.
Guest:There was something very beautiful about it and something I wouldn't want to repeat.
Guest:just all those people involved in everything yeah yeah and then you know i moved on to a bus with a bunch of all those people involved and so it's okay yeah yeah as a shy person it actually kind of helps to live a culty life because you're protected from the real world
Marc:Right, everybody's looking out for you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But music was always that for me.
Guest:I would disappear when I heard it, when I played it.
Guest:I had no memory of writing it, playing it live.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I didn't know why.
Guest:I just thought, you know, art's weird, like everybody says.
Guest:I was being treated for PTSD that was totally unrelated when it revealed a dissociative...
Guest:It's not a mental illness, actually.
Guest:It's a coping mechanism.
Guest:I've been dissociated my whole life.
Guest:With music.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the accident just allowed me to hear that.
Marc:Interesting.
Marc:So you're talking about trauma pre-accident.
Guest:Yeah, I think you're sort of made for that.
Guest:And now I'll do readings and people who suffer from PTSD will show up and like a lot of Gulf War vets.
Guest:And we talk and I've learned a lot about, you know, how to define yourself accordingly, which is something we got to kind of push through.
Marc:When you have PTSD, you mean?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But not all of them will dissociate.
Marc:So the dissociating was like you would kind of disappear into some other space in your head?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And that was the musical space.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So if you've seen me live, that's what I was doing.
Marc:I do, yeah.
Marc:It was like a trance thing.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:My eyes glaze over.
Guest:I don't blink.
Guest:And afterwards, I don't remember it.
Marc:So that wasn't some sort of weird planned affectation.
Marc:You were like, she's in trouble.
Guest:I have had medical professionals come to me now and say, I've been watching you do this for so many years, exhibit classic switching symptoms.
Guest:And I just thought you were a rock star.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And they thought it was on purpose.
Yeah.
Guest:Or just like deep focus, which is kind of what it is.
Guest:And I was staying with a friend in London on the last Muses tour a few years ago.
Guest:And he had never seen the Muses before and went to the show.
Guest:And he stayed up until I got home like 2 o'clock in the morning.
Guest:He's an actor, so he had to leave like a couple hours later.
Guest:He said, this is really important to me.
Guest:We have to talk about this.
Guest:I hate to tell you, but you were switching.
Guest:And I said, you know, it's the end of the tour.
Marc:I'm tired.
Guest:And she's so much better than me.
Marc:So she's a different person.
Guest:I called her Rat Girl, which is why my first book is called that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I just referred to myself.
Guest:It's like a little rat animal.
Guest:And we played the rat in Boston.
Guest:And we fed rats on the commune.
Marc:Oh, you had rats on the commune that you fed?
Guest:It wasn't my fault.
Guest:I was three.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Were they pet rats?
Guest:They're Buddhist creatures too.
Marc:Oh, right.
Guest:Dirty hippies.
Marc:Was that the trauma?
Guest:I didn't know it yet.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it's not there anymore unless I want it to be.
Guest:And my son Wyatt looked in and he said, you know, there are support groups for dissociatives.
Guest:You can have 25 people in a room.
Guest:And if they all associate, there are hundreds.
Guest:And the only rule is you're not allowed to switch.
Guest:So there's this control aspect.
Guest:And now I realize, well, obviously, if it's a psychological endeavor, there's some sort of choice being made.
Marc:Well, that's right.
Marc:Sort of like, you know, like with meditation and thoughts, I imagine.
Guest:Yes, absolutely.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And it's similar to meditation.
Marc:To like stopping the noise.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But you don't want to stop the noise because that's where the songs come from.
Guest:Well, the noise would be not songs for me.
Guest:To escape is to go into the world of music, even though it's where the trauma is.
Guest:It's sublimation to the max, and it makes it beautiful so you can handle it.
Guest:Beauty's not pretty.
Guest:It's just very real.
Guest:And if you can do real, then you can do beauty, which is why I don't belong in the music industry.
Guest:It's not the place for that.
Marc:Well, no.
Marc:I mean, well, it seems like it would be hard to control that because the music industry would want you to keep repeating yourself.
Marc:So it stops the process.
Guest:That's interesting.
Guest:I just thought they wanted me to dumb it down.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I think that it seems to me that they're not necessarily that intelligent, but if they got a good thing, they just want to keep hammering it.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:And a lot of them, like the individuals were super cool to have great record collections.
Guest:And I'd sit in their offices saying, why do you sell crap?
Guest:when you know better and say, well, because crap sells.
Guest:It's like, well, crap sells because you sell crap.
Marc:Well, I mean, it's interesting.
Marc:Just the other night, I watched a new unreleased as of yet documentary about Sparks, about the band Sparks, about the Males Brothers.
Marc:And they've made 20, 30 records.
Marc:And they've always done it their own way.
Marc:And they have this weird little following.
Marc:And they're very respected by certain pop-minded people.
Marc:But theirs has been a journey outside of the record industry and through all different forms.
Marc:Yeah, they've been around forever.
Marc:And I've got a few of their records.
Marc:I just never locked in.
Marc:But they've sort of had three or four lives.
Marc:They've kept putting out records.
Marc:It's just these two brothers.
Marc:I think we'll hear more and more about... You don't know Sparks either?
Marc:Yeah, I've heard of it too.
Marc:I used to see him around, but I was like, what is that?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Well, apparently I'm not alone.
Marc:That's kind of cool.
Guest:I walked down the street in New Orleans, and there are people playing on porches, people playing on windows, people playing in churches and bars.
Guest:It's a spontaneous impulse to play music.
Guest:The idea that we have...
Guest:packaged it is sort of moving away from the apple on the tree and toward McDonald's.
Guest:So you can show up with this, you know, basket of apples and say, I just found these, aren't they cool?
Guest:And they say like, yeah, if we chop them up and put them in these weird fried little pies, they're going to make people dumber and sicker.
Marc:And you start to sort of grip your apples and go, no, I want to go home with these.
Marc:Yeah, I get that.
Marc:But like, I mean, there is sort of the harnessing of the magic.
Marc:I mean, obviously there are people that worked within the music industry that were able to realize their limitations and still embrace their genius because they have a certain amount of freedom because of their ability to sell, but also do what they want.
Marc:I mean, there have been people that have made a lot of money that made some good shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think it's moments we're looking for.
Guest:I wouldn't say there's a genius, but there are genius moments, and we're all capable of them.
Guest:I get suspicious when people are after the rewards of the entertainment industry.
Guest:If they want attention, they want money, I think you might not be in the right space to receive some music that could help anybody else.
Marc:Well, yeah, some people also fuck with the idea of entertainment, and those people are always welcome.
Guest:Yeah, that's true.
Guest:I mean, I don't like the word art.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But as it applies to entertainment, there's a big open space for it.
Guest:We could use it.
Guest:I mean, the Monkees did some cool shit.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Stepping Stone was good.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I find myself playing that progression so often.
Guest:It's like, God damn it, why'd you take that one?
Marc:Yeah, that's those three chords, man.
Marc:So, in a sense, the music at the beginning was you had to do it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I still have to do it.
Marc:Well, clearly, you don't stop doing things.
Marc:I don't know where the fuck you have time.
Marc:So did you have all your kids, or did some other personality have them?
Guest:I had them all.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And it's funny that when I play solo, they put me on at 8.
Guest:Throwing music goes on at 10, and 50-foot wave goes on at midnight.
Guest:So the louder you are, the later you are.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:By the time 50-foot wave, which is my DIY experiment and extricating myself from the industry, I was sleeping maybe literally two hours a night.
Guest:We were on the road for six months at a time saying, this is the work ethic I play.
Guest:We will show up.
Guest:We will pass the hat, and we're going to see how this works as a cooperative.
Guest:No image, no names necessarily, no money.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I read my dues.
Guest:We had great people show up.
Guest:We were kind of noise rock, so we were a little bit slotted into a genre, which is out of character for me.
Guest:And we had the benefit of that.
Guest:But within that form, there was a lot else going on that was maybe a little hyper challenging for the audience.
Guest:the genre itself and but we did okay we stayed out for years and years and uh and yet i had load out at maybe two in the morning and everybody's finally going to bed on the bus at three and my baby's gonna get up at five and i thought i'm gonna die but i'm having it all
Marc:I'm living the dream, but it's going to kill me.
Marc:I'm dying the dream.
Marc:Yeah, I'm dying the dream.
Marc:But oh, so, well, that's wild.
Marc:So like, you know, in terms of 50-foot wave and also having the baby and also having this not yet controlled disassociative issue and dealing with this trauma, I mean, it seems like, you know, whether you knew it or not, you were sort of countering being taken over by that darkness, right?
Marc:Right.
Guest:What a nice way of looking at it.
Guest:I was actually, which is as far as coping mechanisms go, it's pretty useful and not fair.
Guest:People aren't allowed to do that.
Guest:And so I had to face that.
Marc:You know, they're not allowed to do it in the sense of like, you know, regular people, because it seems like, you know, we choose our lives like, you know, as a comic, you know, for whatever reason I'm doing it, which I've investigated.
Marc:And, you know, I know the pathology and I also know, you know, the job.
Guest:And, you know, the ludicrous nature of this place.
Guest:You have to call yourself on ego in order to call the ego on itself.
Guest:And this is the role you play.
Guest:It's perfect.
Guest:We need you.
Guest:Just as an aside.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Well, you know, the egoless...
Marc:vulnerability is hard to live in.
Marc:And I can't imagine living in it with the weight of terror being self-generated.
Guest:Yeah, well, this is why we like to align with losers because losers is in quotation marks.
Guest:We're calling the game on itself as the joke that it is.
Guest:And that may be an interim solution.
Guest:But it's a kind one.
Guest:We'll find our people doing that.
Guest:You know, the culture itself will celebrate narcissism and exhibitionism.
Guest:And we're here to say, like, let's try moving the spotlight over here into the shadows.
Marc:Well, that's happening on TikTok.
Marc:I don't know if you know that.
Yeah.
Marc:There's a lot of shadows on TikTok.
Marc:Regular people doing stuff in their bathrooms and in their living rooms.
Marc:I know.
Guest:I kind of love that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, I mean, it's sort of interesting that there's a whole generation of people that don't really buy into the business of entertainment.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:And what they're really kind of resonating with is just the humanness of people that can do one or two things.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I never believed that people walking past People magazine in the grocery store cared more about those people than their own people.
Guest:We were just trying to sell something.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:As is entertainment industry country that we are.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:And it feeds back on itself.
Guest:And yet that feedback loop is not really hitting hard.
Marc:It's a shallow thing.
Marc:Well, the last four years was, you know, that was the means to an end of entertainment culture is what we live through as a country with that fucking president.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:That was not... He came out of the sewer of entertainment culture.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:That's kind of instructive.
Marc:There is still something to be said about putting the time in and having a craft in place and knowing yourself as a performer and as an artist.
Marc:Despite whatever we may say about the system of entertainment or how we feel about it, the truth is that as time goes on and you can hear even in your music and even in this book that...
Marc:You know, you're a creative person that that has learned and and wrestled with things and now has several different ways to express themselves fairly thoroughly with a certain amount of confidence, you know, and that's not nothing.
Guest:Well, thank you.
Guest:I appreciate that.
Marc:So when did the when did it start that, you know, you really felt like you had to push back?
Marc:I mean, because I remember you had a pretty big couple of hits, right?
Yeah.
Guest:I wouldn't know that.
Marc:Oh, yes, you would.
Marc:I doubt it.
Guest:That doesn't sound like us.
Marc:No, Dizzy was kind of a big hit.
Guest:Oh, I'll say that.
Guest:Well, you know, that's when the record company was saying, you got to give us something dumb for radio or we're going to drop you.
Marc:Is it dumb or the same?
Marc:Same.
Guest:I didn't write it.
Guest:My dad wrote it.
Guest:Your dad wrote Dizzy.
Guest:But we started tweaking it as a joke, because they promised me, put anything else you want on the rest of the record.
Guest:And I thought, well, all right, that's a good deal, whatever.
Guest:At least I can keep working.
Marc:Who's telling you this?
Marc:The record company.
Marc:Okay, okay.
Guest:And I didn't want to have to do the other thing, you know, the toddler whore thing.
Guest:I was like, all right.
Marc:Mug into the camera.
Guest:Dumb song it is, yeah.
Guest:And so there was this song Dude Wrote My Dad, and his version wasn't as stupid because we kept throwing stuff in, going, all right, and here's...
Guest:I can't even talk about it.
Guest:But it was a joke.
Guest:And it was sort of making fun of him like, this is how dumb y'all are.
Guest:You know, you're going to like this.
Marc:Yeah, they did.
Marc:And everybody liked it.
Guest:It's not funny anymore.
Marc:No.
Marc:But the whole album is good.
Marc:Devil's Roof is good.
Guest:Oh, you're so nice to know that.
Marc:What do you mean?
Guest:Yeah, Dave and I.
Guest:Wrote Devil's Roof when the others all went out to dinner.
Guest:We weren't hungry, so we wrote Devil's Roof.
Guest:And they were all so pissed when they got back.
Marc:Why?
Guest:Another song to learn, you know.
Marc:Oh, that was it?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I was like, I'm supposed to be for music.
Marc:Dorks.
Marc:Aren't we a band?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you were enjoying yourself?
Yeah.
Guest:That's a great face.
Guest:I wish you could see faces on podcasts.
Guest:That was a beautiful question, Mark.
Guest:I love music.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And obsessions have a dark edge.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:But it's different now.
Guest:You know, I went through this thing where I became president and I had to become more like the music and the music had to become more like me.
Marc:What was the thing?
Marc:What do you mean you went through this thing?
Guest:It's EMDR.
Marc:Oh, yeah, that's good.
Marc:I like that stuff.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I've had it.
Marc:That worked for you?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It took a long time because this was about a child.
Guest:It wasn't about me.
Marc:The child you were?
Guest:No.
Guest:My oldest son was kidnapped by his own father.
Guest:When was this?
Guest:Well, this is what the first chapter of the book is about.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:You can read it later.
Guest:It's not a place I like to go.
Marc:Okay, but it's in the book.
Guest:Yeah, and it has happened to a lot of people.
Marc:Yeah, no, I've heard that.
Marc:It's real easy to say.
Marc:And did it resolve itself?
Marc:I mean, did you...
Guest:In a way, yeah.
Guest:And I have four beloved children.
Marc:You have a relationship with that?
Guest:Absolutely, yeah.
Guest:But I never could move past that day when the baby was gone.
Guest:And I would say to people who said, but time has passed and Dooney's here.
Guest:And I would say, but something like that doesn't go away.
Marc:That feeling of what it does.
Marc:The act and then the reaction to the act is embedded.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Which is a truth, and yet it should be placed in time, and that's what you can't do with PTSD.
Marc:Because it keeps reacting.
Marc:It keeps happening again.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:And triggers like summer and driving thinking there was an empty baby seat behind me.
Guest:Things like that.
Guest:Hearing a child cry.
Guest:I couldn't do.
Guest:And my bandmates would, everyone sort of took care of me.
Guest:They knew those things about me, but it was never articulated.
Guest:It just was as a heartbreak.
Guest:And fair enough.
Guest:This is how we are on earth, as you know.
Okay.
Marc:When it happened, there was nothing you could do legally?
Guest:I was embroiled in a custody dispute after that.
Marc:What a nightmare.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So he was a baby when that happened?
Marc:Three years old, yeah.
Marc:That's terrible.
Marc:And what year was that?
Marc:Where were you in your life?
Guest:I was just trying to get out of my Warner Brothers contract.
Marc:Oh, so everything was hitting the fan.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:A whole lot of legal shit at once.
Guest:And a lot of realizing how cruel Earth can be when it lets bad voodoo in, I guess.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:When we compete instead of cooperate.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Well, it's interesting how much of the hippie ideal you have in your head.
Guest:I have carried more than I thought I would.
Guest:My kids make fun of me.
Guest:They do a sort of Blanche Dubois.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you never stop creating.
Marc:It doesn't seem like you have ever taken a break, really.
Guest:No, that would be a nightmare for me.
Marc:Because you wouldn't have anything to treat the trauma, the pain.
Guest:Well, it was a lot of, you know, I hate to make it sound like my old catalog was so miserable.
Marc:It's not miserable, but it's like, you know, the type of, like you were saying, it's not unlike when you do a reading and you have a certain type of people that gravitate towards you, whether they're PTSD or whatever.
Marc:So, you know, your particular frequency is going to attract those who it relieves as well.
Guest:What a beautiful way of putting it.
Guest:Because it is an energetic and it is a resonance and that's what a good show is as opposed to a stupid one.
Guest:Like that spotlight, you know, it has now been co-opted as if your attention just goes to it with love.
Marc:Well, that was always the issue with bands who were misunderstood.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Marc:You know, with bands who write songs that aren't understood by the people that come to hear them.
Marc:And then it makes them angry, the band.
Marc:And they feel like, you know, like how it's frustrating that this huge hit was was co-opted by these people that don't understand us.
Guest:That's a funny thing.
Guest:You know, I never bitched about the record company when I was on it.
Guest:I say, like, fair enough.
Guest:You're about money.
Guest:You pay for the record.
Guest:You own the record.
Guest:I don't care about any of that.
Guest:I just don't want to suck.
Guest:And the first thing I noticed about what had changed in my life was that...
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:hear what's going on and afterwards they treated us like electricians who were running currents through their homes and that's it and then suddenly it was a bunch of like frat guys who wanted to hear the dumb song that they bought radio play for and they saw us on a dumb magazine and they bought the cover and I just thought this is wrong and I
Guest:I'm not saving anybody by extricating myself, but I don't have to be part of the problem.
Guest:And so I lost everything, obviously.
Guest:I finally won my way out of that contract by trading my first solo record for our freedom, my freedom anyway.
Guest:And I had to work for now, it was like 30 years, to build a listenership that is not fandom, that weird thing.
Guest:sycophantic, like I want you on a pedestal so I can knock you off.
Marc:But that's a testament to the magic of music.
Marc:You don't know how that thing's going to enchant anybody.
Marc:Music's this weird thing.
Marc:Whether or not they understand it as deeply or seem like the kind of people you would like, you're going to throw a spell.
Marc:Some people are going to be like, what's that guy doing here?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Hit him.
Marc:What are you going to do?
Guest:I know.
Guest:And this is, I think, why I have no demographic.
Guest:And I get in trouble for that with publicists all the time.
Guest:It's like, tell me who your people are.
Guest:And I was like, well, I hope you can't define them superficially.
Guest:You're like age, race, gender.
Guest:What kind of asshole would I be?
Marc:I always say it's not a demographic.
Marc:It's a disposition.
Guest:And like you said, an energetic.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:So I guess what we're addressing is just that over time, your music will deeply soothe those who have the same depth as you in terms of what you're putting out there.
Marc:So it's not that it's dark or it's not that it's all painful or whatever, but it does speak directly in a deep way to a certain type of person that most likely is...
Marc:like-minded or like-hearted.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You know, and there's plenty of them out there.
Marc:There really are.
Marc:It's a little easier to find now.
Marc:You can have more success at finding them.
Guest:It is.
Guest:The constraints have been removed a bit in the crash of the industry, but, you know, we lost some good soldiers in the fallout, and yet we all knew it was going to happen, and it should happen.
Guest:It's like any other war.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, now it's like all I hear, like I've got, you know, I know people who are in the music business in a big way.
Marc:And now it's like they're just sort of like, it's all about the merch.
Marc:You've got to get those T-shirts, Kristen.
Marc:How are you doing with hats?
Marc:You got hats and patches?
Marc:You got to get some hats and patches.
Guest:We had a pretty quality mug for a while.
Guest:I have not gone the merch route, no.
Marc:Got to get that merch, man.
Guest:That's kind of sweet.
Guest:At least it's honest.
Marc:And it's nice to have something people can drink out of or a hat they like to wear.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And then you got your little tribal thing going.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:People show up with their shirts.
Guest:It's free advertising for us.
Marc:That's the other problem is, like, how do you identify, you know, just on the brand level?
Guest:I know.
Guest:Especially me because my people are all anti-marketing.
Guest:How do you market to that?
Guest:This whole book is anti-marketing.
Marc:How so?
Guest:Well, it's saying, like, everybody's familiar with anti-fashion, right?
Guest:They're saying, well, soul and vanity probably don't hang.
Guest:But anti-attention, only because it's been co-opted so by marketing, they get all...
Guest:chasing their tails about it.
Guest:Like, we have to put anti-attention in a magazine.
Guest:We have to put anti-attention in a movie.
Marc:What is anti-attention?
Guest:It just means let's find your people and work for them and don't try to sell them on anything that isn't for them.
Guest:Don't try to fool anybody.
Guest:Don't manipulate.
Marc:But it seems like this book does seem to approach all of the sort of darkness and light of not just motherhood, but motherhood in a sort of interesting universe that you live in, but also a lot of motherhood.
Marc:I mean, not everybody who lives normal lives has four fucking kids.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now, how did that, you know, so the first dude, the not good dude, I guess, that you had the first child with, where did the other kids come in?
Marc:How did that all happen?
Guest:Then I got married.
Marc:Had two more?
Guest:Three more.
Marc:Three more.
Marc:Same dude.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Better dude?
Guest:Yeah, I guess.
Guest:And now they're all six feet tall, and they're all kind of gone.
Marc:They all get along?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:They're like puppies.
Guest:It's funny.
Guest:I toured pregnant with all of them, and I was worried about standing next to the amp, then utero, and we have pretty loud bands.
Marc:Bouncing them around in the fluid.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then I would bring them to the studio, which has this big pink velvet couch and they'd all be sitting there bored.
Guest:You know, mom, whoever she is, is the most boring creature on earth.
Marc:Look at her yelling in there with her guitar.
Guest:And they would just kind of be giggling and stuff until the distorted guitar would come through the speakers and then they would all fall asleep.
Guest:And I want to think it's because in utero, that was their lullaby.
Marc:There's no coloration there.
Marc:The vibration, right.
Guest:Yeah, just going like... And, you know, somebody's taking care of me.
Guest:As long as it sounds like this, then I'm okay.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:Are you conscious of influence?
Marc:I mean, obviously, having a relationship with Vic or resonating with Vic Chestnut, the songwriting is kind of astounding with him.
Marc:But do you musically have influences?
Guest:I wish I did.
Guest:I'm not so... Aware of it?
Guest:I, you know, my parents took me to Woodstock.
Marc:The Woodstock?
Guest:The Woodstock, yeah.
Guest:Oh, you're there with the rest of the hippies?
Guest:Yeah, and so I had that kind of soundtrack around, but they were from- How old were you, like two?
Guest:Something like that.
Guest:And, you know, they drew a third eye on my forehead.
Guest:Did they?
Guest:But they're also from Lookout Mountain in Tennessee.
Guest:These Southern Baptists were raising me Buddhist.
Guest:And so there was a lot of Appalachian folk songs going on.
Marc:You did some of that as a grown-up.
Guest:I did.
Marc:Thank you for knowing that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How did it feel to get into that groove?
Marc:Familiar?
Guest:Absolutely, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I think there's a lot more of that that you can relate to my records than people usually do.
Marc:I think that's probably true.
Marc:I mean, I believe you.
Guest:Well, thank you.
Marc:Did you hear that growing up?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Dude played a lot of guitar.
Marc:Who did?
Guest:My dad, Dude.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:That's actually his name?
Guest:I don't think it's his birth name.
Guest:That's what everybody calls him.
Marc:That makes so much sense.
Marc:Because that Appalachian stuff is a fucking deep well of dark shit, man.
Guest:It's true.
Guest:And I did this record for my kids because they weren't familiar with it.
Marc:Which record was it called?
Guest:What's it called?
Guest:Murder, Misery, and then Goodnight.
Guest:And I sat them down in the studio because they were playing on it, playing piano and singing and stuff.
Guest:And I said, you know, this is...
Guest:About murder, murdering your girlfriend, you know, getting wasted and killing people.
Guest:And is that okay?
Guest:You know, it's like Looney Tunes where you can't really hit people in the head with frying pans and jump off cliffs.
Guest:They looked at me like I was nuts.
Guest:They had a full appreciation of, well, I don't want to say metaphor, but, you know, not that in a reductive sense, but yeah, metaphor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:straddling the dream and the hero.
Marc:Well, yeah, I think they take in those stories as they will, as deep as they're capable of, right?
Marc:That's true.
Marc:So, like, the narratives are always there, and then they just get deeper as the emotions connect to them as they get older.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And as they live their own tragedies.
Guest:And they learn to not literalize.
Guest:But I tend to see music as the real plane, and this one as an almost.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:and so uh why because there's more continuity with music why i don't know no i get it like because it's sort of like it's always right there you just gotta
Guest:I think so.
Guest:It feels like it's always vivid.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And this place, you'd have to pick and choose among the vivids.
Guest:And that's why writing prose is different.
Guest:I got to find a story in what actually happened.
Guest:I've only ever written truth.
Guest:And you can't write the whole truth.
Guest:That's just boring.
Guest:In fact, with 30 years to work from, I was allowed to edit out everything boring.
Guest:It makes my life sound in fucking sane.
Yeah.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:There's no peace?
Marc:There's no just sitting anywhere?
Guest:Very few chapters are just sitting.
Marc:So all your kids managed to find their way in their lives?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I got a chef in New York, a baker in New Orleans, an animator who was here working for Disney, and then he collapsed in an Uber on his way to see me here for dinner, meet me and his little brother, and was in the hospital for her.
Guest:A long time.
Guest:When we got there, they said he was not going to make it till morning.
Guest:And so he did.
Guest:And we all gathered around him for years to bring him back to himself.
Guest:What happened?
Guest:Um, I don't know.
Guest:He's, uh, he's on the, he's Spectrum-y.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I used to argue against the concept of art and say, look, we are here.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We are all vividly here with our fingerprints that we're not snowflakes, but we've got to live this idiosyncratic universal thing, and if you've got to call it art, go have it.
Guest:It's in everybody.
Guest:And then I met Wyatt, and it's like,
Guest:Ah, this is art.
Guest:I bring him on promo tours, which is like, yeah, because he's the one who really couldn't be left behind.
Guest:And a promo tour is not something you want to do to a kid.
Guest:But I had to say, all right, mother's everything.
Guest:And fly to a different country every single day.
Guest:And there wouldn't always be food.
Guest:And it's hard to sleep in a new hotel room every night.
Guest:Right.
Guest:He would fall asleep drawing and wake up and the pencil and pad would still be on his pillow.
Guest:He's just like a three or four year old.
Guest:And he would just keep drawing while I dressed him, draw in the cab to the airport, draw in the airport.
Guest:And when we got to the record company, there'd be his drawings from last year.
Guest:I need to have a desk and a waste paper basket.
Guest:And I learned from him, he was about the drawing, not the drawings, to not be attached to what happens afterwards.
Guest:Right.
Guest:About the act of drawing.
Guest:Yeah, fairly Buddhist, like all kids.
Guest:And so he's now cleaning his karma, as he says, in a health food store in New England.
Guest:But he's still an animator.
Guest:And a musician.
Guest:I forbade them all from playing music.
Marc:Is he the second kid?
Marc:He's the third.
Marc:The third?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So he's fully recovered?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, he's amazing.
Guest:I mean, he's my hero.
Guest:He's brilliant.
Guest:I mean, beyond brilliant.
Guest:And then there's this healthy little surfer boy in Encinitas.
Guest:So, yeah.
Marc:And the father, do you get along with him?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, everybody's all cool now.
Guest:This is the time for everybody to be all cool, right?
Guest:It seems to happen.
Guest:As we crumble, we get cool.
Marc:It seems to happen.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:It's interesting.
Marc:I don't have children, and there's no reason for any of my exes to have anything to do with me.
Marc:So they don't.
Marc:But my brother, over time, as the kids get older, all the tension seems to...
Marc:I guess it's still there, but life is life, and you sort of let go of certain things, I guess.
Guest:It wears itself out, especially it's like grief.
Guest:If you can take it out of your head and put it in your heart, it starts to crack open.
Guest:You really make it be in your body.
Guest:Your body knows better what to do with it than your mind that spins it out.
Marc:Right, tries to fix it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And your life will either continue it or it'll get tired of it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:There's no figuring out.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I think life gets tired of stress because there are more important things to do than not get along with people.
Guest:I get along with absolutely everyone.
Guest:It's not because I have no convictions, but just because peace really is where it's at.
Marc:Gee, you're a fucking hippie.
Guest:I know.
Guest:How sad is that?
Guest:I tried so hard.
Marc:Well, where are you living?
Guest:I've been in New Orleans for a while now, but I'm also with a little surfer kid in Encinitas.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I'm going to hand that place over to him.
Guest:Which place?
Guest:This Encinitas place, and he'll take over and rent.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:Just live with a bunch of surfers, you know.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It's really sweet.
Guest:That's a nice discipline.
Guest:It makes for healthy psychologies.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:And New Orleans, do you have a house there?
Guest:I had a shotgun shack there.
Guest:I call it a house.
Guest:And I just handed that one over to the baker because he's got his own line of baked goods down there.
Guest:So right now, I'm probably living in my truck, but we'll see what happens in the next few weeks.
Guest:I know that's a hippie thing too, isn't it?
Guest:Sadly.
Sadly.
Marc:No, I don't think so.
Marc:I think that's a transient thing.
Guest:There you go.
That.
Guest:Transient with a good attitude, though.
Marc:Right.
Marc:No, there's a movie about it.
Marc:There's a nomad land.
Guest:It's very real.
Guest:That's kind of how I've lived, and so I'm open to it.
Marc:And you're okay?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, well, it's just always, let's see what happens next.
Guest:And right now I have a 50-foot wave record and a solar record going on at the same time.
Guest:So I got to get back to New England.
Guest:And so I'll check on the little animator at the Whole Foods store and make sure I'm still mom to everybody.
Marc:Well, it was great talking to you.
Guest:You too.
Marc:And I will take the five years and I'll chip away at the book.
Yeah.
Guest:It's a little too exciting for that.
Guest:Just going to warn you.
Guest:It's a thrill a minute.
Marc:No, it's beautifully written.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Oh, look, Black Francis said nice things.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Are you guys buddies still?
Guest:We are, yeah.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:That's nice.
Guest:We were babies together.
Marc:Oh, that's nice.
Guest:We used to sing songs about being homesick on the van, you know, overseas.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:When he toured with the Pixies?
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, be careful.
Marc:Good luck with everything.
Guest:Thank you so much.
Guest:You too.
Marc:You know, keep fighting the good fight.
Guest:Oh, will do.
Guest:I like fighting.
Guest:Jiu-jitsu.
Marc:My God, how intense was that?
Marc:I love her.
Marc:Her new book, Seeing Sideways, a memoir of music and motherhood is available now wherever you get books and listen to her music.
Marc:Kristen Hirsch in the form of Throwing Muses or 50 Foot Wave or Kristen Hirsch.
Marc:Check her out.
Marc:Let's do some phase work.
Marc:Phase it.
Marc:.
.
so so so
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey.
Marc:Lavanda.
Marc:Cat angels everywhere.
Guest:Thank you.