Episode 1216 - Katey Sagal
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuck sticks?
Marc:What the fuck stirs?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:Everything all right?
Marc:Are you okay?
Marc:Did you get vaxxed?
Marc:Are you half vaxxed?
Marc:Are you fully vaxxed?
Marc:Are you not vaxxed?
Marc:Are you not vaxxing?
Marc:Silly boys, silly girls, silly theys.
Marc:Get the vax.
Marc:Let's push it back.
Marc:What's the problem?
Marc:You got vaccines when you were a kid.
Marc:Stop being weird.
Marc:Get the vax.
Marc:Let's stop this shit already.
Marc:Today on the show, I talked to Katie Segal.
Marc:You know her from Married with Children and Sons of Anarchy.
Marc:She has a new show on ABC called Rebel.
Marc:She also grew up in show business.
Marc:Yes, her family's a show business family.
Marc:She's an accomplished singer.
Marc:And I would like you to know that this show is a lot of recovery talk.
Marc:It's like a recovery week here.
Marc:But that's okay.
Marc:It's good.
Marc:We get into some of the food issue stuff.
Marc:Some of the codependent, dirty co stuff.
Marc:Are you a dirty co?
Marc:Get into some of the drinky, druggie stuff.
Marc:Because I don't care what anybody says or how anybody reacted to
Marc:around Hunter.
Marc:But the truth is addicts and alcoholics are stigmatized.
Marc:Anybody who needs help and is openly asking for help is stigmatized in this country.
Marc:I mean, it's sort of like, you know, it's along the same arc as anti-vaxxers.
Marc:It's like you should be able to fight it.
Marc:You should be able to pull yourself up by your bootstraps.
Marc:You should be able to not need
Marc:help that's you know you're not really sick your body's fine it's your brain but it's just not true but societally that is still uh that is still the deal and that's one of the reasons that anonymous is anonymous you know i choose to be public about my sobriety because i think it helps other people but a lot of people can't because they'll be judged goes on your record that's one of the reasons it's anonymous
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Got to keep it to yourself unless you want to be public about it to help other people.
Marc:That's my belief.
Marc:But in the out there in the world, no matter how much of it is out there, no matter how many people know people who have drug problems, there's still some part of it that people look at them as weak or as a problem or as potentially trouble.
Marc:Some of that may be true.
Marc:But but either way, it should be recognized as something that people need help with and accept it as as a sickness.
Marc:Anyway, all that being said, Katie Segal was here and we did talk about it a bit.
Marc:Did you guys watch that?
Marc:That documentary?
Marc:on HBO Max or HBO or whatever the fuck it is.
Marc:What is it, Q Into the Storm?
Marc:What a great documentary.
Marc:It really was well done.
Marc:This guy invested, what's this guy's name?
Marc:Cullen Hoback.
Marc:He went in there, man.
Marc:He was there at the beginning of Q and at the beginning of the...
Marc:And he put three years into this, figured out the through line, figured out the players, figured out the effect it had on people and really kind of made a kind of well-rounded, well-researched and true doc.
Marc:Did not infuse himself too much into it.
Marc:Like so many documentarians do, they become part of it.
Marc:Their ego needs the attention and it becomes half about them.
Marc:He didn't do that.
Marc:He was there.
Marc:His presence was felt.
Marc:And he didn't really cross the line except for once.
Marc:And it was for good reason and really added to the drama of the thing.
Marc:But you do kind of get to the end of the line of this thing and realize that the entire Q phenomenon was spearheaded by
Marc:most likely, seemingly, this father and son team of nihilistic nerds who kind of broke the brains of millions of people and broke the world.
Marc:The fact that a couple of malcontents with malintentions could start this up online and break the fucking world and sort of send thousands, hundreds of thousands of people's brains spinning
Marc:Away from them into a direction they to the point where they might not get their brains back is sort of daunting and terrifying that it was that easy.
Marc:Granted, look, man, I'm not saying they're all powerful.
Marc:People really want to believe things.
Marc:They really want stories that have closure.
Marc:They want things to be explained.
Marc:They want their anger to be honored.
Marc:They want to feel part of something bigger than themselves.
Marc:And if you get them angry enough and frothed up enough, they'll kill people to realize it.
Marc:But it does get to the bottom of it.
Marc:It makes me think about how do these people that got played by this bullshit feel?
Marc:I mean, I know most of them are too proud to admit they got played and probably will just, you know, kind of live off the fumes of the thing.
Marc:and try to pull out what they think is true and real that has some substantiation.
Marc:But how does it feel to be that fucking played?
Marc:Obviously, look, man, we're all marks.
Marc:We've all been played by one thing or another.
Marc:And that's sort of one of the hinges of conspiratorial thinking.
Marc:It's like, what are you a mark for?
Marc:How do you know what you know is real?
Marc:What do you base your perception on?
Marc:What do you think your identity is hanging on?
Marc:What are the facts?
Marc:Who are you really?
Marc:What is true, really?
Marc:You know?
Marc:I mean, that's the game, right?
Marc:We're all kind of marks, but to see where this went just for the sort of power-tripping goof of a couple of fucking...
Marc:people who figured it out online and then it got glommed on to by thousands and thousands of lost angry people but also it got taken advantage of by people who were hip to the power of it then they hip the uh the pathological lying pig president and he glommed on to it and used it it was kind of fascinating the whole thing is fascinating
Marc:That a couple of people, expats, father and son team, maybe could break the fucking world.
Marc:Break the brains.
Marc:Disassociate hundreds of thousands of people and start a viral series of ideas that eat away at the truth.
Marc:Like acid.
Marc:So Katie Segal and I, I think that there's a moment here and you'll hear it during our conversation where there's this kind of aha.
Marc:We are alike moment and it's around food issues.
Marc:You know, I guess people who know me and know this show know that I'm kind of fucked up like that.
Marc:But I will tell you this as a man, as a he, his, you can call me they if you want.
Marc:But, you know, I am a I am a dude with massive food issues, massive body dysmorphia, hyper aware, like to the point where, like, if I feel uncomfortable in my body because of what I perceive as
Marc:as being heavy or weight or fat or whatever I perceive, that feeling is so paralyzing that I almost can't breathe.
Marc:I can't be touched.
Marc:I don't want to be seen.
Marc:There have been times where I don't want to live.
Marc:Despite all of my other, what some people would say, neuroses, which they are not, but outside of...
Marc:Aside from my drug addiction in the past, my addictive personality or whatever shortcomings I may have, however I may be fucked up, whatever I may think of myself, these food issues, these eating issues are the deepest ones and they're completely fucking...
Marc:paralyzing and terrible, you know, to be so aware all the time of what you eat, why you eat it, and then the cycles of self-hatred, the cycles of body hatred, the cycles of, you know, compulsive weighing.
Marc:And then if you do get into a role where you start losing weight, that thrill of being sort of exhausted and loopy from being
Marc:anorexic in your intent to maintain a certain weight or keep getting lower if you look at the third season of glow I'm surprised that nobody thought I had cancer as that character because I started to lose a little weight just so I could eat on set and not feel bad about it but then it got away from me and I just kept losing and losing and I look terrible but it's very hard for me to balance that shit so much of my sense of self is wrapped up in how I feel about my weight I can't even explain it
Marc:How fucking deep that issue is and how like it makes you want to die inside.
Marc:And oddly, you know, I probably don't get the help or work a program around it that I should because it really is my deepest issue.
Marc:But but it was just to say that just to say that you're not alone out there.
Marc:Fellas who pinch themselves.
Marc:When they feel fat or have a series of poking gestures around their stomach to check the density of what they perceive as their weight.
Marc:Maybe that's uniquely me.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:But I do know that me and Katie bonded around that.
Marc:We bonded around Jew stuff.
Marc:We bonded around...
Marc:booze and drugs and recovery and it was a great talk it was great to see her I felt like we'd known each other for for centuries her new show Rebel airs Thursdays on ABC it premieres tonight at 10 p.m.
Marc:Eastern and this is me talking to Katie Segal I'm really happy to be here by the way nice to see you
Guest:I'm a big fan.
Marc:Are you?
Marc:That's very nice he is.
Marc:So true.
Marc:I watched the pilot of the new thing.
Guest:What'd you think?
Marc:Of Rebel.
Marc:It's exciting.
Marc:You know, you're out there kicking ass with like nine kids, all different races and genders.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Many different husbands.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:I think it's interesting how some shows seek to accommodate the diversity.
Marc:How are you going to do it?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Well, even though, no, actually, yeah, no, this is a fictitious approach.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But I've never seen it done like this where it's like, that's your kid too?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:All different races.
Marc:But you can carry it.
Marc:It happens.
Marc:It does.
Marc:But the character seems like somebody who could do that.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:Well, she's got three different husbands.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, one's adopted, one kid's adopted.
Guest:So, you know, they're all just different races.
Marc:One's a doctor from a cop.
Guest:One's a doctor from a cop.
Marc:One's a lawyer from a lawyer.
Guest:After being a juvenile delinquent.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:No, no, I'm not a lawyer.
Guest:Oh, no, her dad's a lawyer.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So you know more.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I haven't seen...
Guest:it's not important you know you just walk in we're mid you know we're midway i mean i actually did see the pilot but it was yeah you know i don't know about you but uh looking watching myself is not always my favorite thing to do i can't it's hard yeah and i zipped out i was sort of like oh i think this is you know i just kind of yeah it was out of body what do you what do you experience when you do it like when you watch yourself what is what is the feeling
Guest:First, I'm hypercritical.
Guest:Way too hypercritical and really self-obsessed.
Guest:All I can see is me.
Marc:And then I have to watch.
Guest:If I watch it again a couple times, then I can see the whole project.
Guest:But at first, I'm just like, oh, it's about me.
Marc:Yeah, I think I'm pretty much all about me on every viewing.
Marc:And then occasionally...
Marc:And then occasionally I'm like, I'm working with somebody.
Marc:They're doing a good job.
Marc:Thank God they're doing such a good job.
Marc:But I've gotten less critical of myself as time goes on.
Marc:But it's hard when you watch yourself on television because if you're hyper critical of it, it's all stilted.
Marc:It's just the nature of the medium, right?
Marc:Because they're not, you're pulling off a trick.
Marc:in acting like you're really talking to somebody in a way.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:In the sense that a lot of dialogue that happens in those compressed stories is sort of unnatural.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Well, yes.
Marc:In general, right?
Marc:So for me, I always feel that weird air in between lines if I'm watching myself, because it's not, you're acting, so it's not quite natural.
Marc:And I'm like, oh, why can't I look more relaxed?
Marc:Or why didn't I make it seem more natural?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or why couldn't they have shot this when it was off camera?
Guest:It was so much better.
Marc:Yeah, we were so loose.
Guest:So loose and so much better.
Guest:Didn't give a shit.
Guest:Just threw it away.
Marc:Yeah, so this is based on Erin Brockovich, kind of?
Guest:Yes, it's inspired by Erin Brockovich.
Marc:And she's involved?
Guest:She's an executive producer, yes.
Marc:I think she's a fan of mine.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:I think.
Guest:I'm sure she is.
Marc:Well, I mean, we've tweeted at each other.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I don't know how to, you know.
Guest:She's very cool.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:I think she would, yeah, you should have her on your show.
Guest:She's awesome.
Guest:I think it'll happen.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's really great.
Guest:And fighting the good fight.
Guest:So, yeah, it's loosely based.
Guest:Well, yeah, it's inspired by her, but we don't have her life rights.
Guest:So it's not her.
Marc:It's just she wouldn't give them or they're already owned or spoken for.
Guest:I don't know what the deal was.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:She's an executive producer, but she can't give you the life rights because she's promised that she might have given them to somebody else.
Guest:I was going to do something awesome.
Guest:That's why she gave them to them.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:But she is involved and it is sort of inspired by her.
Marc:And you're sort of like, what would you call this character?
Guest:She's a consumer advocate.
Guest:A voice for the little guy.
Guest:That's what she is.
Marc:What network is it on?
Guest:It's on ABC.
Marc:Andy Garcia.
Marc:I haven't seen him in a while.
Guest:So awesome.
Marc:Is it fun to work with him?
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Well, he's such a movie star.
Guest:So he's got all these like killer movie star stories.
Marc:Does he?
Marc:And he sits around and tells them?
Guest:Yeah, in the most endearing, fabulous way.
Guest:Like, he'll just throw out the names of these famous directors.
Guest:This one did this, and this one did that.
Guest:And, you know, I'm just like, I'm enthralled.
Guest:I love the way he tells stories.
Marc:He's intense, it seems.
Guest:He's intense?
Guest:Well, he's Cuban.
Guest:And so he has this passionate Cuban way.
Guest:And he's very, you know, he's proud of being Cuban.
Guest:He loves that he's playing a Cuban character.
Marc:Right, yeah, sure.
Guest:You know, and he'll tell the director, that's not how the Cuban would do it.
Guest:And so, you know...
Guest:It's a different rhythm.
Guest:But he does.
Guest:He's a very passionate, super funny dude.
Guest:I mean, people don't think he would be funny.
Guest:He's funny.
Marc:I think he's funny.
Marc:I've seen him kind of play that dry funny in the Oceans movies.
Marc:Yeah, he's funny.
Marc:He's sort of the straight guy.
Marc:He's kind of the steaming funny guy.
Marc:The guy who's like always getting fucked.
Guest:Yeah, and in this project, he kind of just, you know, I just order him around.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And he, you know, he loves me, but he takes it.
Guest:I guess so.
Marc:You like it?
Guest:Ordering people around.
Guest:I actually don't in my real life, but it's super fun to play.
Marc:Yeah, I bet.
Marc:Because I listen.
Marc:It kind of gets a little off your chest.
Guest:It does.
Guest:Absolutely, it does.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's very liberating.
Marc:And then there's that other guy from Northern Exposure who I feel like I haven't seen him forever.
Marc:John Corbett.
Marc:John Corbett.
Marc:It's so interesting to check in with people as they get older, like, oh, you're doing all right.
Guest:Yeah, he's doing fine.
Guest:He's like in all these, he's in that, what's that, Netflix, All the Boys I Loved Before, or all the things.
Marc:Oh, right, right, yeah, yeah, he's in that?
Guest:He's in that, and, you know, he's Mr. Dreamy guy.
Marc:Is he a nice guy?
Guest:He's a super nice guy.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah, I'm not going to say anything bad about anybody I'm working with right now.
Marc:No, no, I don't.
Marc:So far, everybody's good.
Marc:I don't know why I asked you that.
Marc:I mean, what are you going to say?
Marc:What am I going to say?
Marc:He's a fucking asshole.
Marc:Don't say anything to anybody, but I don't.
Guest:No, he's cool.
Guest:Everybody's pretty cool so far.
Guest:Everybody's grateful to have a job after everything that we've just all been through.
Marc:Were you shooting it with protocols?
Guest:We are now.
Guest:We were about to shoot the pilot just when all this went down and everything shut down.
Marc:So how much have you shot?
Guest:We are on episode six.
Marc:Oh, so you guys are going up and you're going to be in it while they're airing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we just have a 10 episode order.
Marc:So that doesn't usually happen.
Marc:Usually they're all in the can, aren't they?
Marc:Or am I making that up?
Marc:No, they are.
Guest:They are.
Guest:And there's a whole, you know, there's that ridiculous pilot process, which we got to skip.
Guest:We just, they just picked us up straight to series.
Guest:Oh, as opposed to shooting a pilot and waiting around and hearing if you do so.
Marc:So you seem like you've never really stopped working.
Guest:Well, no.
Guest:I mean, yes, I have stopped working.
Guest:I mean, I have three children, so I've stopped, you know, stopped and started.
Marc:To have them and to be with them occasionally.
Guest:Yeah, to have them and be with them.
Marc:Try to make them turn out okay.
Guest:Yeah, and they're so far so good.
Guest:How old?
Guest:I have 26, 25, and 14.
Guest:I have a teenager at home.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm an old mom.
Guest:I had a kid with Kurt, who's my third husband.
Guest:I mean, it's kind of, you know, a little bit like the part I'm playing.
Marc:The Sons of Anarchy guy?
Guest:Sons of Anarchy guy, yep.
Marc:He created that show?
Guest:He created it.
Marc:And he fell in love on the set of The Biker Show?
Guest:No, no, no, no.
Guest:We met in a 12-step program.
Marc:I'm familiar with those.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I'm a long time in that.
Marc:All of them or just one?
Marc:Two?
Guest:Oh, I've been to all.
Guest:There's probably a few more in my future.
Guest:I, too, am quite obsessive.
Guest:So, no, we met in a 12-step room, and he was working on The Shield.
Guest:He worked on that show.
Guest:With Chiklis.
Guest:With Chiklis.
Guest:And I was, you know, getting out of the marriage number two.
Guest:And I don't know if I had a gig then.
Guest:Oh, I think I was on Eight Simple Rules, which is a show I did with John Ritter.
Guest:And then, you know, he wrote the motorcycle show with me in mind after we were married.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah, it was nice.
Guest:Actually, she was written to be a smaller character.
Guest:And then the network was like, nah, let's bump her up.
Marc:That's nice.
Marc:So he's got the swaggering, you know, chick list and then the swaggering you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which was so great in my career because I had been so known for comedy that it had been very difficult for people to realize that I'm actually not funny and I'm much more serious than that, which is totally the truth.
Guest:And so he wrote me this great dramatic role, and it was really, it opened finally.
Marc:A life changer?
Guest:Kind of, yeah, work-wise.
Marc:But you grew up in show business, which always, and I read that, and it fascinates me when people grow up in this business.
Marc:Because it seems like, I mean, you were here when it was glamorous and exciting and great.
Guest:My life, not glamorous.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was my father.
Guest:This is the part everybody doesn't know.
Marc:What?
Guest:You know, it's hardworking.
Guest:My dad was an episodic television director, basically.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, he did Man From U.N.C.L.E., he did Dr. Kildare, old, old stuff.
Guest:And, you know, worked his butt off.
Marc:He never did films?
Guest:He did.
Guest:He did The Omega Man.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:With Charlton Heston?
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:That was his movie.
Guest:And I think ultimately he would have liked to have done more films, but he had a family with five kids.
Guest:Five kids?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:There are five of you?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's five of us.
Marc:Same mom?
Marc:Same mom.
Marc:Where did he come from?
Guest:My dad was from Russia, came here when he was seven with his Yiddish mother who never ever spoke English.
Marc:What part of Russia?
Guest:They were from what is now, I'm not going to be able to pronounce the name right.
Marc:Is it Belarus?
Marc:Ukraine?
Guest:No, Ukraine.
Marc:They're from Ukraine.
Marc:They're from Ukraine.
Marc:Yeah, that's where my family's from, part of it.
Guest:So his side, his side is that.
Guest:The other side is apparently I'm an Amish person from the other side.
Marc:What are you talking about?
Guest:I did that show.
Guest:You know that show, Who Do You Think You Are?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I did another one.
Guest:Oh, you did The Roots?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, you know what?
Guest:I think I saw your roots.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I love that show.
Marc:Yeah, it was all Jew.
Marc:It was a Jew roots.
Marc:It was a Jew roots.
Marc:It was me and Terry Gross and Jeff Goldblum.
Guest:Oh, it was fantastic.
Marc:I saw that episode.
Marc:I loved it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, and I thought for sure when they put you on that show, they don't tell you what they're going to do.
Guest:Sure.
Yeah.
Guest:So I thought for sure they're taking me to Russia because that's the most interesting part of my life.
Guest:Turns out my mother is Amish, was Amish royalty.
Guest:So they're taking me to Pennsylvania.
Guest:And you thought she was Jewish?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I knew my mother was not Jewish.
Guest:I knew she was a white person from Pennsylvania, somewhere.
Guest:She was like a big mix of stuff.
Guest:So I'm Amish and Russian.
Marc:So they took you to Amish land?
Guest:They did.
Guest:And they took me generations back.
Guest:I met all these cousins named Hofstadler.
Guest:I mean, it was really wild.
Marc:That seems so incongruous to who you are.
Marc:Did that affect your sense of identity?
Guest:Well, I do.
Guest:No, I was going to make a joke, but no, I'm not going to say that.
Guest:No, not really.
Guest:I've always felt more sort of a Russian Jewish.
Guest:My father was a very big personality.
Guest:And so, you know, I've always felt stronger on that side of my family.
Marc:Was your mom in show business?
Guest:My mother was.
Guest:My mother started as a singer when she was 11.
Guest:She was called the singing sweetheart of Cherokee County and had her own radio show.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Where was this?
Guest:in gaffney south carolina so she was on like the old-timey radio show like 15 minutes a day if it's probably sponsored by a flower like a sausage or something something i tried to track it down i could never find it oh nothing huh but then she went on to be a writer she worked for uh well here's a long story she worked for norman lear norman lear i interviewed him ah he's a hundred now well how old is he he's so 97 he's
Marc:Crazy.
Guest:He's my godfather.
Marc:Really?
Guest:He introduced my parents, my mother and my father.
Marc:What was he doing then?
Marc:Like writing for Danny Thomas or something?
Guest:Yiddish theater.
Marc:Yiddish theater in New York or here?
Marc:Here?
Marc:Out here.
Marc:No kidding.
Marc:So it was before television.
Guest:No, television was happening because my mother was the script supervisor on the Martin and Lewis show.
Marc:Okay, the variety show.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Guest:My parents have been dead a long time, so it's kind of like lore.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But anyway, so my mother was working for Norman.
Guest:Norman knew my dad through directing in the Yiddish theater and hooked him up.
Marc:Your dad directed in Yiddish theater too?
Guest:Yes, my dad directed.
Marc:So everybody spoke Yiddish?
Guest:Everybody, Yiddish.
Marc:Did you?
Guest:No.
Marc:No.
Marc:My grandparents used to when they didn't want me to understand what they were talking about.
Guest:Right.
Guest:My grandmother always did.
Guest:She never learned English.
Marc:Really?
Guest:No.
Guest:She never spoke English.
Marc:And you guys grew up in like Hollywood?
Guest:I was born in Hollywood.
Guest:That's crazy.
Guest:yeah but i just and they stayed married your parents well my mother my mother died when uh she was 47 she was young oh my god so she had heart disease um terrible yeah and she had some other stuff and uh so my mom died when i was 19 20 and then uh and then my dad remarried and my dad remarried do you know who gower and march champion are
Marc:I know, I wish I did.
Guest:They were like the Fred and Ginger of Broadway.
Marc:Oh, okay, okay.
Guest:Anyway, March Champion was big.
Guest:So he married March Champion.
Marc:The dancer?
Guest:Yes, the dancer.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:She was my stepmother until, you know, my father died.
Guest:Then it gets all sad.
Guest:It gets a little bit sad.
Marc:Let's do it at the beginning here.
Guest:The sad part?
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah, all in my 20s was a little bit funky.
Guest:Lots of loss, lots of sad.
Marc:He died?
Marc:How'd he die?
Guest:He was killed on a set.
Guest:My dad was directing a movie called World War III, and he was doing Second Unit, and he was up on a mountain with a helicopter, and he got disoriented, couldn't get a shot, walked the wrong direction into the helicopter.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that was horrific.
Guest:And you're in your 20s.
Guest:And in my 20s.
Marc:Where are you and the siblings?
Guest:I'm number one.
Guest:I'm the first.
Marc:So you're the oldest.
Guest:I'm the oldest.
Marc:So you've got all these younger siblings and now both parents are gone.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'd like to say that I kind of stepped in, but I didn't.
Guest:I just sort of I just checked out.
Guest:I just got further and further into a dark hole.
Marc:What were you doing at that time?
Marc:When did you start like manifesting your talents?
Guest:Well, you know, I worked as a musician.
Guest:I never wanted to be an actor.
Marc:Right, but like when you were a kid with all this show business around, were you doing stuff?
Marc:Were you singing and dancing?
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I was in bands.
Guest:I was like, my mom taught me to play the guitar.
Marc:What, like in the late 60s kind of deal?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:My mom taught me to play the guitar mid-60s.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like I was 10, 11.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I could always sing.
Guest:I was a singer.
Guest:And I had this kind of, you know...
Guest:I had an ability.
Guest:I was good.
Guest:And so from a young age, I was in bands.
Guest:Rock bands?
Guest:Rock bands with the older boys.
Guest:It was fun.
Marc:Did anyone go on to do big things in your rock bands?
Guest:uh not from high school but later on i met a lot of yeah well then you were like i think in rock the rock business weren't you well like basically yeah pretty much i mean i was you know kind of a struggle i mean i did i made records and i was a struggling background singer and i i was like a demo singer you know they'd put you in so how does this work so okay so you're normally is your godfather so you you're you you spend time on sets i imagine as a kid
Guest:Yeah, if I wanted friends in elementary school, I'd bring them to the set.
Guest:Because they didn't like me otherwise.
Marc:And you never got worked into a show?
Marc:I did.
Guest:My father, when I was 16, he decided... My dad always thought I should be an actor, which is one reason I never wanted to be an actor, because he wanted me to be one.
Guest:That's another story.
Marc:Why were you pushing back on the old man?
Guest:Just pushing back.
Guest:Just because that's my nature.
Marc:Was he like, what kind of Jew was he?
Marc:Was he like a stocky kind of loud Jew?
Marc:Loud.
Marc:Cigars involved?
Marc:Cigars.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Ascots on the set.
Guest:If you go to any set, every set I've worked on, people knew my dad.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And they loved him.
Guest:They loved him.
Guest:And I would look at them and like- What was his name?
Guest:Boris.
Guest:Boris Segal.
Guest:Loved him.
Guest:And then I would, you know, because he was different when he came home.
Guest:He was tired and loud.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:and i remember thinking is loud nice word for angry kind of yeah yeah yeah big big not boozy though um you know boozy in that no not not not alcoholic like me right but boozy in that like martini way like every day at whatever sure you know when you come home in a little mill town do you remember mill town the liquor
Guest:No, no, that's a pill.
Marc:Oh, it's a pill?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, it's like a pre-Valium-Valium?
Marc:Pre-Valium.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So there was that.
Guest:And yeah, so he was that guy.
Guest:And so I didn't, whatever he said, you know, he said left and I said right.
Guest:It was that kind of relationship.
Marc:Just to define yourself.
Guest:Pretty much.
Marc:So did he work you in somewhere?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He did.
Guest:He wanted me to have a union card.
Guest:So he wanted me to have health insurance.
Guest:So when I was 16, he wrote me into he got me a job on this TV movie that he did with Dean Stockwell.
Marc:Oh, Dean Stockwell.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And so I had a part on that.
Guest:And then he also directed me in a Columbo.
Guest:I was this is in my high school.
Guest:I was in high school because you had to have two jobs to get a union card to be Taft Hartley.
Marc:Right.
Exactly.
Guest:So he got me a union card, which to this day, I'm just so, you know, because it's hard to get in the union.
Marc:Is it?
Guest:Oh, my gosh.
Guest:I have two.
Guest:My older kids are both actors.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's a big hurdle.
Guest:They're in the union.
Marc:Why?
Marc:Because there's less union shoots?
Marc:Don't you have to sort of get Taff Hartley after two jobs anyways?
Marc:You're only allowed to have two jobs before.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But you can't get a job.
Guest:It's kind of that catch-22.
Marc:I get you.
Marc:You have to be in union.
Marc:Someone has to give it to you.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You have to know somebody.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I got mine from my friend Steve Brill put me in The Mighty Ducks 2.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:I was cut out, but I got my card.
Marc:Who cares?
Guest:It's good to get your card.
Marc:So you did Columbo?
Marc:That must have been exciting, though, right?
Marc:Peter Falk?
Marc:No?
Marc:Nothing?
Guest:I did a movie years later with Peter Falk.
Marc:You did?
Guest:At the end of his life, yes.
Guest:And that...
Guest:Yeah, that was pretty great.
Guest:I don't really remember him when he was Columbo.
Guest:I remember Jeff Goldblum was on the episode that I did.
Marc:A young Jeff Goldblum?
Guest:I totally remember him, yeah.
Marc:Well, he's so quirky and weird.
Guest:He was so quirky and weird, and he gave me a ride home, and I was sort of thinking like, wow, is he hitting on me?
Guest:I don't know what he's doing.
Guest:Was he?
Guest:He might have been.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I haven't talked to him since, but I think he's quite the man about town.
Marc:I'm sure he'd love to hear it.
Marc:He'd be like, ooh.
Yeah.
Marc:Of course I remember.
Guest:Maybe he was.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But then, you know, then I just I really wanted I love to play music.
Guest:That's what I love to do.
Guest:I still do.
Marc:But like I'm trying to picture that I always am fascinated with this time in Hollywood where you were you were like in your 20s in the 70s, which is like that was the decade.
Marc:Where it was just like a party in the streets.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It was insanity everywhere.
Marc:Just drugs, music.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:People, you know, where like it was like post hippie insanity.
Guest:Well, it was actually it was kind of so 1975.
Guest:I'm 20 years old.
Guest:So it was that period all the way through mid-80s that it was really – It took a big shift too.
Marc:The hair got bad.
Guest:The hair got bad.
Guest:The shoulder pads got big.
Marc:Yeah, like the mid-70s.
Marc:So when you were in high school or 18 or 17, that was when it was cool.
Marc:That's when you probably had the best pants.
Guest:Yeah, and then it got – I was sort of like in between.
Guest:I was like, you know –
Marc:pre like go to san francisco and protest the war 69 i was 13 right you know it must have been much better to be 16 yeah right but you got the 70s though so you got the music and the cars yeah everything yeah and you start singing in a band in high school start singing in a band in high school and then when do you start go professional how does that happen
Guest:I went to CalArts out of high school.
Marc:Oh, out in Valencia or wherever it is?
Marc:Where is it?
Guest:In Valencia.
Marc:So many people went there.
Marc:Don Cheadle, Alison Brie.
Guest:I was in a class with Paul Rubens, David Hasselhoff.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:That's a big... Yeah, it was wild.
Guest:My dad said to me, I said, well, I want to go to that school because I didn't have any grades in high school.
Guest:I was completely like, you know, I couldn't get into a regular... What happened?
Marc:Were you using then?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I was.
Guest:And I was also just not going to school.
Marc:What was your thing?
Guest:I was smoking a lot of weed.
Guest:I was drinking Red Mountain wine.
Marc:Red Mountain.
Marc:Is that like Boone's Farm?
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like Black Beauty's, White Cross?
Guest:Black Beauty's, White Cross.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:All that.
Wow.
Guest:The fun stuff, you know.
Marc:Benzies.
Guest:Benzies.
Guest:Second All.
Marc:Second All.
Marc:That's the other way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My mom had a lot of Second All in the house.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's lucky.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, that was that generation, too.
Guest:I mean, it was like.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Second All, Valium, Librium.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:All that.
Marc:And the diet pills.
Guest:Oh, that's exactly what started.
Guest:That's how it started.
Marc:What?
Marc:The diet pills?
Guest:I was a fat kid, apparently.
Guest:Even though I looked at myself, I just thought I'd look curvy.
Marc:I was a fat kid.
Marc:No, I was told I was a fat kid.
Guest:You were a fat kid?
Marc:My mother made me believe that.
Guest:Do you still think you're a fat kid?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm obese right now.
Marc:100%.
Guest:I hear you.
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:Do you have to do that thing where you just can't look in the mirror sometimes?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Body dysmorphia, it's called.
Marc:I have body dysmorphia.
Marc:It's my deepest issue.
Guest:oh my god we are so alike i just saw a billboard of myself a fucking billboard of myself in you know this rebel show that i'm in yeah i call this girl that that i sponsor and she says take a picture i take the picture i said oh i look fat i can't and she's like she said you are insane i said look i know i know i'm nuts but that's what i see
Marc:I'm so fucking nuts.
Marc:I can't shake it.
Marc:It's a tough one to shake.
Marc:Because my mother's anorexic.
Marc:So I grew up with this.
Marc:My mother recently, or as many times in my life, has said, I don't think I could love you if you were fat.
Marc:But it turns out that was not even true.
Marc:She said to me a few Thanksgivings ago, just casually, she said, you know, Mark, when you were a baby, I don't think I knew how to love you.
Marc:I'm like, I guess we've solved it.
Guest:Or you should have said, I knew that.
Guest:I kind of pieced that together.
Marc:The weird sort of glib honesty was kind of mind-blowing.
Marc:But the point about the weight is she has maintained a weight of like 116 pounds for decades.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:And that's her whole life.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:She's obsessed.
Guest:So she passed that on to you.
Marc:totally yeah and it's the worst it is the worst i weighed myself this morning and i was like wow i'm i like i had a body dysmorphia morning because like last night i was like i'm fucked and i exercise constantly and you look great by the way thank you and i got on the scale this morning like wow i was wrong this is an okay day
Guest:You have to put away this.
Guest:This is so funny.
Guest:We're having this conversation.
Guest:My husband and I are both this way.
Guest:Did you make him that way, though?
Guest:Oh, no, no, no.
Guest:He came to me that way.
Marc:Because you can make people this way that you're with.
Guest:My children.
Marc:Like, I noticed that about relationships I've had.
Marc:And I noticed about my father because it's contagious because they start to get self-conscious.
Marc:Like, if you're that crazy, they're like, do I look fat?
Marc:You know, and it just it spreads through the whole family.
Marc:It does.
Guest:It's well, it's alcoholism.
Guest:It's it's it's the same thing.
Marc:Is this?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, in my opinion, anything that fills the hole, so to speak.
Marc:I'm having a carb problem right now.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:I'm like, I'm like, I can't, I cannot do it.
Guest:You mean you can't have them or you're just overdoing them?
Marc:Well, no, I just want them.
Marc:You just want them all the time.
Marc:I'm jonesing because I'm feeding it.
Marc:I'm not really overdoing it, but I do beat the shit out of myself in order not to.
Guest:Well, it's your head more.
Guest:I mean, for me, it is.
Guest:I find that over the years- Yeah, and I've been able to moderate.
Guest:I can kind of eat most things.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, well, even that bag of Swedish fish last night was probably not a great idea.
Guest:I can't eat.
Marc:I'm so glad I don't have that.
Guest:You don't have the candy sugar thing?
Marc:I like chocolate and cake and pie.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But I don't like gummy bears and Swedish fish.
Guest:but don't you know that's an eating uh that's a you know the the excuse for gummy bears and all that is because there's no um it's just straight straight sugar no carby anyway i think the point is that i think with years of recovery what i've learned do you do oa uh i have been i did not really kind of feel shitty going there don't you totally embarrassed didn't want to go skinny person at oa the worst
Guest:Well, here was the worst.
Guest:It used to be in the old days, you know, every rag magazine would infest the 12-step world.
Guest:So I didn't mind that the National Enquirer said I was like a drug addict.
Guest:But when they said I was at a Q&A meeting, I was like totally mortified.
Guest:I thought, no.
Marc:Oh, I didn't realize they did that.
Marc:That was happening?
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:They used to be... What time?
Marc:In the 80s?
Marc:When?
Guest:You know, when I got sober, I got sober when I was in 1986 and I got sober at the log cabin in West Hollywood.
Marc:Architects of Adversity.
Guest:Oh, my favorite.
Guest:That was my favorite when they throw chairs around shit.
Marc:But so so the the press would would break anonymity.
Guest:The press would be there.
Guest:That's when I learned really quickly to share in a general way, because almost everything I'd ever said in a 12 step room.
Marc:That's so fucking heinous because I don't I don't.
Marc:Is that still happening?
Marc:I don't feel that it's happening.
Marc:I don't think – I don't read the – I don't look.
Marc:I guess there was sort of a wave where like, you know, AA was sort of like somehow – it seemed like there was a time where people would meet people at meetings.
Marc:There was a hip factor to meetings.
Oh.
Guest:for a while right well when i that's definitely not the case you know you used to in the 80s we'd get dressed up to go to meetings i mean it was like you know because you know if you figure you're an addict since you're young right sort of socially inept you have a lot of social anxiety right yeah i mean that's that was part of my thing i couldn't deal with people right so i get sober and there would be the these social meetings where you know my sponsor would say to me yeah go talk to people i'd be like i don't i you
Marc:Oh, you want to look good, man.
Marc:If you're going to 3rd and Gardner, you better look fucking good.
Marc:3rd and Gardner.
Marc:It's like this royalty sitting at the front, like the whole fucking thing.
Guest:Or Rodeo.
Marc:Did you ever... Well, I don't know if you... I went to Rodeo like once or twice, but I was like... I got sober in New York, so I've been out here since 2002, and I was sort of an Eastside guy, you know, Silver Lake.
Marc:But I dressed up.
Marc:You want to look good.
Guest:Yeah, you do.
Guest:Well, you know, it's like social, and there's cute girls and cute boys, and keep coming back.
Marc:Everyone's working it, too.
Guest:Kind of.
Guest:Well, you know, the ones I remember when I first got sober, you know, I was just all over like whatever dude was.
Marc:I mean, I was, you know, to put a trigger warning on this episode for bleeding, bleeding deacons who who hold on to the tradition like you guys, you're breaking the dream.
Marc:Yeah, well.
Guest:Yeah, but I remember the guys that were actually cool dudes would just look at me and say, you know what?
Guest:You're not sober long enough.
Guest:Just sit down.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Very pretty.
Marc:Sit down.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Don't talk.
Marc:But wait, let's go back.
Marc:So you start on diet pills, and that's where it starts?
Guest:Yeah, when I was 14, my parents took me.
Marc:Who told you you were fat?
Guest:My dad, the director.
Guest:My dad, the director of the house had to be perfect.
Guest:I was supposed to be perfect.
Guest:Even though what's funny is he had a food thing.
Guest:So he was just projecting onto me.
Marc:But what do you mean?
Marc:He was self-conscious about it?
Guest:No, his weight would go up and down.
Guest:He was like a food guy.
Marc:But he knew he'd be uncomfortable fat?
Guest:Always on a diet.
Marc:Oh, not a comfortable.
Marc:Not a happy fat guy.
Guest:Yeah, not a happy fat guy.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Guest:And he wasn't really a fat guy.
Guest:Like when I look at pictures, nobody was, you know.
Guest:So they take me to the doctor, gives me diet pills.
Guest:I did not, I don't think I lost any weight, but I felt a lot better.
Guest:Like I think I needed, you know, antidepressants is probably what I needed.
Guest:And so then self-medicating just started then.
Marc:So, okay.
Marc:So you found that you felt better.
Marc:You were still chubby, but you were on your way with the drug.
Guest:But I didn't give a shit.
I didn't care.
Yeah.
Guest:you're thinking man you're doing that's what i was thinking and i taught myself to play the piano i'm writing songs i'm prolific i'm just this is the way for me jacked jacked smoking cigarettes nice drinking wine on the weekend smoking weed i didn't really think there was any problem at all like what 17 oh 14 i started by the time but then you know the prescriptions would run out so then i'm buying black beauties and i'm doing a lot of different things yellow jackets
Guest:Yellow jackets.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I have not heard that in a long time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then before I know it, it's the 80s.
Guest:And then then I'm on the road.
Guest:Then I'm like, yeah, then I'm in the dumbest drug of the dumbest drug ever.
Marc:Speed was so much better.
Marc:Well, in the sense that like, you know, it's cheaper.
Marc:Well, you take a pill and you can be by yourself and you didn't have to follow somebody around.
Marc:I could do blow and be by myself.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But I mean, you still had to deal with it and go away quick.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You take some pills.
Marc:It's like you're good for a few hours.
Marc:You don't have to keep going to the fucking bathroom.
Marc:Yeah, that's true.
Marc:See, you know all this stuff.
Guest:Yes, it's so true.
Marc:No, but I loved I did coke, too.
Marc:It just in like fiending on coke and how embarrassing that gets.
Marc:And the places you end up because of that shit, it's crazy.
Marc:But you're on the road with who?
Marc:How does it start the music career?
Marc:How do you become a background singer?
Guest:Well, I dropped out of college.
Guest:That's why I started that.
Guest:I went to CalArts for six months.
Marc:With David Hasselhoff.
Guest:Yeah, and Paul Rubens.
Guest:Were you friends with them?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I just talked to Paul.
Guest:I talked to Paul all the time.
Guest:Paul's so great.
Guest:I don't know why he hasn't been on this show.
Guest:He's a great guy.
Guest:You should have him.
Marc:He's fantastic.
Guest:I don't know why it hasn't happened.
Guest:Anyway, so I'm in college, and then I drop, and I was in the theater department because my dad would only let me go if I could audition.
Guest:This is where it all gets kind of like, well, I guess I had some natural talent because I got into these places.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I didn't want to do it.
Guest:So I got a job in a Broadway, the road company of a Broadway show.
Guest:I was the chorus girl.
Guest:And I just sang in that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What show?
Guest:It was called Two Gentlemen of Verona.
Guest:I went on the road for like nine months.
Guest:And then I came home and then I got a job as a singing waitress.
Guest:And I worked in this restaurant and then I got a record deal.
Marc:In the 80s?
Guest:In the 80s.
Guest:And now it's, yeah, I think we're almost to the 80s.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Maybe 70, late 70, whenever Kiss came out, because Kiss, Gene Simmons, is who took me to Casablanca Records and got me a record deal.
Marc:How do you meet that monster?
Guest:I was his waitress.
Marc:And that's how it happened?
Marc:And you were his singing waitress?
Marc:I was his singing waitress.
Marc:And this was like at the beginning of Kiss?
Guest:It was their first concert in Los Angeles.
Guest:Holy shit.
Guest:And they were playing at the Santa Monica Civic.
Marc:And they're all from like Long Island, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And he was probably like still like a reasonable rock Jew at that point.
Guest:Oh, he was a fantastic rock Jew.
Guest:And the only person I'd ever met that never had a drink or a drug.
Guest:I mean, he was wild.
Guest:He was like straight up business.
Guest:And I was so taken with him.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:What I'm saying is you met him before he fully got degenerate.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like I think his bag is sex, right?
Yeah.
Guest:Well, it was then.
Guest:I don't know if his bag is still sex.
Marc:I don't know now.
Marc:It's got to come out somewhere.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:That was definitely his jam.
Guest:And it turned out that I was in a band at the time with a guy he went to college with.
Guest:It was just this weird sort of thing that happened.
Marc:Synchronicity.
Guest:And before I knew it, we had a record deal, and I started making records.
Marc:Solo records.
Guest:Well, this was with a band, my first record.
Marc:What's the band called?
Guest:It was called The Group With No Name.
Marc:Not a good name.
Marc:Horrible name.
Marc:Terrible.
Guest:It was Neil Bogart's idea at Casablanca Records.
Guest:I don't know if you know who that was.
Marc:I do know that name.
Guest:He was the prez.
Marc:The big guy.
Guest:He was a big guy, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that happened, and then that didn't happen, and then I was like a singer for hire, and I would go back and forth between the restaurant.
Marc:But you're dating Gene?
Guest:I did long distance.
Guest:Yes, I did.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I guess you call it dating.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You'd hook up here and there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:For me, I was like madly in love, but he was not.
Marc:But he must have been on the road constantly.
Marc:Constantly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you sang on a record of his?
Marc:I did.
Marc:When they all did their little solo records.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I sang on his solo record.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How bad was that?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I can't remember those records.
Marc:I was not a kiss kid.
Marc:Me neither.
Marc:I didn't.
Marc:And it was my age group too, but I didn't go in.
Marc:I didn't go in because I was in high school then and I didn't.
Guest:I listened to a lot of rhythm and blues.
Guest:I had a guy who turned me on to Robert Johnson when I was in high school.
Marc:Sure, yeah, I got that.
Guest:So I listened to all that.
Guest:I remember running off to the Ashgrove, which is now the improv.
Guest:No, I hear about this place.
Guest:You know, which used to burn down yearly.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It used to burn down all the time.
Guest:But I'd go run off and hear Taj Mahal and Willie Dixon.
Marc:Yeah, they were always hanging out.
Marc:Some guys had residencies there.
Marc:So that's where you started singing with those guys or touring with them?
Guest:Well, I toured with Etta James.
Guest:I sang with Etta.
Marc:This is after the no-name band?
Guest:This is after the no-name band.
Marc:Got no hits?
Guest:Got no hits, got no nothing.
Guest:Then we moved to Elektra Records, got even less.
Marc:Who was in that band with you?
Marc:They still around?
Guest:Yes, I think so.
Guest:Alan, I mean, I don't think you would know any of them.
Marc:They didn't go on to other bands?
Guest:No, I mean, the only one that ended up being in that band was my friend Brian Ray, who plays with Paul McCartney.
Guest:And he he was in our side band because the band was five singers.
Guest:It was kind of like the Mamas and the Papas.
Guest:And then, you know, we ended up having a band.
Guest:I ended up marrying the bass player.
Guest:I mean, it goes on.
Guest:It goes on and on as the first husband.
Guest:That was the first husband who taught me about Otis Redding and Al Green.
Guest:I think that's why I married him.
Marc:Oh, those are both good stories.
Marc:Both ended sadly.
Marc:Well, not so terrible, but there was a bad story in the Al Green story.
Guest:Otis, plane crash.
Marc:Right, but Al, didn't he get in trouble for a woman who threw a pot of boiling water on him?
Marc:Or was it the other way?
Guest:I can't remember.
Guest:Oh, yeah, no, you're right.
Marc:And then he became a reverend.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He got God because he was out of his mind.
Guest:Yeah, and the music suffered.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Sometimes God doesn't help music.
Yeah.
Guest:sometimes you got to turn your back on god and take the tricks elsewhere that's right uh it's always a price to pay so he learned the bass player taught you about that he did he was very he played in a band called the soul survivors do you remember that expressway to your heart oh is that it so i married him and uh so those people they were in that band but nobody else you would know and
Guest:After that, I was like a singer for hire.
Guest:I had bands.
Guest:I was trying to get record deals.
Marc:So with the record company, oh, you had an agent and a record company that kind of would say like, oh, we got a girl that does this.
Guest:Oh, no, no agent.
Guest:There was no agent at that point.
Guest:And then I lost my record deal.
Guest:And so I remember when I worked with Bette Midler for five years.
Marc:How was that?
Guest:That was pretty amazing.
Guest:That was pretty great.
Guest:I went all around the world with her.
Marc:People love her.
Guest:Love her.
Guest:And it was, that was an open cattle call audition.
Guest:That was like hundreds of girls lined up, you know, to go into this soundstage and sing and dance.
Guest:Why no acting?
Guest:I didn't want to.
Guest:It was just really, I was going to be, that was it.
Guest:I just didn't even.
Marc:How many solo records you put out?
Guest:I've put out my first one was when I was on Married with Children.
Guest:I still did not give up.
Guest:And so I got a deal on Virgin Records and I put out a solo.
Guest:I've put out four.
Guest:I think four solo records.
Guest:I just keep I make them, you know, now I just make them and.
Guest:At that point, I was very invested in like, okay, people are going to take me seriously.
Guest:I wrote every song on this record.
Guest:I know I'm an actor, but I'm a musician.
Marc:I want them to know this part of me too.
Guest:And then I'd go on those radio tours and I'd be like, could you say Al?
Guest:And I was like, no, this is not happening.
Marc:Morning radio?
Guest:No, they don't care.
Guest:So now I just make records because I like to make records.
Guest:That's great.
Guest:And I have a band and I play in my band.
Marc:That's nice.
Guest:I know it's super great it's kind of like well I'm sure I mean you make your living as an actor and as a stand-up yes yeah and this and this yeah yeah and this but what's your first love comedy who knows you don't love any no you do I am I do comedy because I have to in my mind in my heart like it's like a it's a soul thing yeah
Marc:I don't always love it.
Marc:And oddly, since we've had this year of terror off and grief for me, I haven't missed it that much in a way.
Marc:It's a compulsive thing.
Marc:It's how I own my space in the world.
Marc:It runs pretty deep.
Marc:But love is a weird, like I can't romanticize it.
Marc:It's like eating in a way.
Marc:uh i do like to play guitar i do like i like the music but i'm not that i'm not that confident i've gotten pretty good at it but i should it's one of those things where it's like i should play with other people a bit yes it's great and acting sort of relatively new of for me to get to understand how to make it satisfying
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, it takes a minute.
Guest:I mean, when I first came to acting, actors hate when I say this, but it just sort of happened.
Guest:I didn't really have, I didn't go to acting school and I didn't go, I didn't, I didn't train for it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It was more a last minute, like I'm so broke.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was so broke that I was like, I got to just open any door that comes along.
Guest:And I ended up doing this little musical that these friends of mine wrote in a garage.
Guest:And agents came to see it.
Guest:And they came to see it because Pam Adlon was in it.
Guest:Pammy was in it with me.
Guest:This is when Pammy was like 16.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And they came down.
Guest:It was called Backstreet.
Guest:And we went and we were in this old play and these agents approached me and they said, do you want to do you want to have an agent?
Guest:And I was like, no, I don't really want to do that.
Guest:I don't want to be an actor.
Guest:And they kept coming.
Guest:They came like two or three times.
Guest:And then finally, I realized they said, yeah, but you could work as an actor.
Guest:And I was like, oh, well, OK.
Guest:So I just said yes.
Guest:And.
Marc:Well, how come you're broke?
Guest:Because I was broke because, you know, this was 19.
Guest:I wasn't sober yet.
Guest:So it was 1984.
Marc:But I mean, like what you so you're touring with Bette Midler all over the world and then you tour with other people.
Marc:There's not a lot of money in that.
Marc:You're just doing too many drugs and fucking up all that.
Marc:You have kids yet?
Guest:No, no kids.
Marc:No, no, no, no.
Marc:Who else you toured with?
Guest:I toured with Etta.
Guest:I toured with Bette.
Guest:I toured with Tanya Tucker.
Marc:Oh, she's great.
Guest:Oh, she was great.
Guest:When she was with Glen Campbell.
Guest:Oh, I had great stories.
Guest:And he was on the bus with us.
Guest:And yeah, I did that.
Guest:What a great guitar player.
Guest:Oh, an amazing guy and great guitar player.
Guest:Yeah, he was in his kind of, I could say some stuff.
Guest:I'll tell you later.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Anyway, he and then I did a lot of session stuff.
Guest:I sang on Olivia Newton-Johns records.
Guest:I was kind of like I never learned how to read music, but I have a very good ear.
Guest:So I'd be right.
Guest:Yeah, I could kind of eek by.
Guest:I also had a manager that was throwing me money if I couldn't pay my rent.
Marc:How bad are you on the drugs?
Guest:How bad was I at that point?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Pretty bad.
Marc:Mostly blow or what?
Guest:It was blow.
Guest:It was pills.
Guest:It was alcohol.
Guest:I was kind of like a little chemist.
Guest:I was what they call high bottom in terms of I was still functioning in the world.
Marc:Sure, sure.
Marc:Well, you were also in a world that was saturated with drugs and booze.
Guest:Saturated.
Guest:That was just the life, right?
Guest:That was the life.
Mm-hmm.
Guest:And, you know, it wasn't until I started working in television and I realized, oh, shit, you know, I can't stay up till four in the morning.
Marc:This is a real job.
Guest:I got to be there.
Guest:And my first job on television, I'll never forget the woman who was in it was a sober person and she would talk about what job was that?
Guest:I'm just going to say.
Guest:I'm just going to say.
Guest:It was with Mary Tyler Moore.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Guest:And Mary was well known as a sober person.
Guest:And I remember I went to that job and she would talk about it and I lied to her.
Guest:I'd say, yeah, I'm sober too.
Guest:And I'm thinking, I'm such a fucking liar.
Guest:Years later, she was my Eskimo.
Guest:Years later, I took her out in New York and I told her the truth.
Guest:And I said, I have to thank you because you are the reason I ended up in a room.
Guest:I mean, she's one of the reasons.
Guest:What show is that?
Guest:It was called The Mary Show.
Guest:It was Mary Tyler Moore's return after the big Mary Tyler Moore show.
Guest:She played a divorcee.
Guest:Danny DeVito directed it.
Guest:He gave me the gig.
Guest:This is me, like little rock singer.
Guest:I'm like, what's happening?
Guest:And they bring me in.
Marc:And this is after you do the play with Pam?
Guest:No, this is after, as soon as I signed with an agent, I got a gig at the Mark Taper in a big musical, like an opera, a rock opera.
Guest:I played a Russian Jew in a rock opera.
Marc:Great.
Guest:That I didn't speak one word, and I sobbed and cried.
Guest:And CBS said, you want to be on a comedy?
Guest:And I was like, yeah, I'll come audition.
Guest:So I got the job, and then there was Mary, and it was a whole new thing to me.
Guest:What was she like?
Yeah.
Guest:She was very—now I understand why she was what she was.
Guest:She was guarded.
Guest:She was very, like, not super engaging.
Guest:And I think it's because she was Mary Tyler Moore.
Guest:No, not cold, just self-protective.
Guest:You know, you're Mary Tyler Moore.
Guest:She's a huge star, yeah.
Guest:You know, so—
Guest:She was, but she was great.
Guest:I mean, she was awesome with me.
Guest:Like, I didn't even know how to put my face in the light.
Guest:She would come over and lift my chin up and say, here, you know, you do this, do that.
Marc:Yeah, I still don't know which camera I'm on.
Guest:Me neither.
Guest:Or when they say camera left, camera right.
Guest:I'm like, wait a minute.
Guest:What do you mean?
Guest:Just raise a hand.
Marc:I just like, I started to learn how to say like, where's my camera?
Marc:So we're okay.
Marc:Which one are we?
Marc:Okay.
Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, in hindsight, I realized, because that job ended.
Guest:I'm still not sober.
Guest:And I just thought, well, I'll just go back to my rock and roll, my job, my day job, my real job.
Marc:And you started doing the background stuff again?
Guest:No, I got married with children, like, almost within three months.
Guest:Oh, I got so, that's what happened.
Guest:I left that job.
Marc:With Mary.
Guest:Yeah, and then shit got bad.
Marc:Like, what's...
Guest:What does that mean?
Marc:Well, I mean, if we're talking.
Guest:What does that look like?
Guest:I had a boyfriend at the time.
Marc:Oh, see, it's already.
Guest:It's already a boyfriend, right?
Marc:It's already terrible.
Guest:I know.
Guest:His name was Spider.
Guest:There you go.
Guest:It's getting better.
Guest:It's getting better.
Guest:And Spider and I were, you know, he was in a band with this guy named Chucky Weiss.
Marc:I don't know if you know Chucky.
Marc:Yeah, Chucky's in love.
Marc:Yeah, Chucky's in love.
Marc:The Cantor scene.
Guest:Yeah, I was at the cantor scene.
Marc:With Ricky Lee Jones and Tom Waits and Chucky Weiss.
Guest:Yeah, all that.
Marc:And Spider.
Marc:And Spider.
Marc:So you knew young Tom?
Guest:I met young Tom.
Guest:I didn't actually know him.
Guest:I knew Chuck.
Guest:I knew Chuck really well.
Guest:And I know Ricky.
Guest:And...
Guest:So anyway, so... Yeah, Spider.
Marc:Yeah, Spider.
Marc:Did she write a song about Spider, too?
Marc:I feel like I've heard of Spider.
Guest:No, I don't think she wrote a song about Spider.
Marc:Spider wasn't in love.
Marc:He wasn't.
Guest:I was in love with Spider.
Marc:Of course you were.
Guest:Of course I was.
Guest:And...
Guest:Yeah, it got pretty, you know, it just got like how it gets, which is like a daily thing and not good.
Guest:And I always kind of knew, I knew from early on that something was up, that this is not good.
Marc:That you couldn't control it.
Guest:That I couldn't control it.
Guest:That's what I knew.
Marc:And so who got you?
Marc:How'd you end up over at the log cabin?
Guest:At the log cabin.
Guest:Actually, Yucca was my first meeting.
Guest:Spider ran off.
Marc:Oh, I know that church on Yucca.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't even know if they have meetings there anymore.
Marc:Yeah, maybe not.
Marc:Whatever.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:But Spider ran off with somebody, and I went to the meeting looking for Chuck, who was already in the club.
Uh-huh.
Guest:hoping to find spider and i and i kind of walked in and there were a bunch of people i knew and they were like oh you're finally here we've been saving your seat i just thought what are they talking what do they mean where's spider
Guest:Sit down, shut up.
Guest:You know, those were the early sobriety days.
Guest:Sit down, shut up, wash this coffee cup.
Guest:Don't say anything.
Guest:And I just heard stuff and then I just kept going.
Guest:I think I was still looking for him.
Marc:We had so many friends there though.
Marc:I did.
Marc:I had a lot of friends.
Marc:I'm sure they wouldn't let you leave after that.
Guest:Well, and plus, you know, I mean, I knew, I knew, I knew it was, you know, it's dark.
Guest:It's, you know, how many nights can you go through that?
Guest:We're just jangled all the time, you know, and your prayer is God, please get me through this one.
Marc:Oh yeah.
Marc:The worst.
Marc:The worst.
Marc:And you can't even sleep.
Guest:You can't sleep.
Guest:You can't do anything.
Marc:The worst.
Marc:Well, good.
Guest:So then, so there I am.
Guest:I'm sober.
Marc:And then you got the gig.
Guest:And then I started working more as an actor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Then my whole sort of, in fact, I was two months sober when I started working on Married with Children.
Guest:How'd you get that job?
Guest:Went to an audition.
Guest:I mean, by this time I have an agent, right?
Guest:So she sends me out.
Guest:She sends me the script.
Guest:She goes, this is a network that isn't even a network yet.
Marc:So we got a good shot at this.
Guest:No, and I thought, oh, well, right up my alley.
Guest:Because I'm not your mainstream actor.
Guest:They're going to like me.
Guest:Yeah, because I've never really fit.
Guest:I still kind of don't.
Guest:I feel like I don't really fit into the actor community so much.
Marc:Yeah, you're better off.
Guest:And then I really didn't.
Guest:Then I was just like, you know.
Guest:So I went in and auditioned and wore funny clothes.
Guest:And Ed O'Neill was there.
Guest:You know how they pair you up?
Guest:And Eddie and I just, I don't know if you know Ed, but he's just a super regular dude.
Guest:He's just not actor-y.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And we got on great.
Marc:Now, how much of the character is your creation?
Marc:Like, how was it written versus?
Guest:I think it was written more to be slovenly.
Guest:You know, it was supposed to be like Roseanne and Sam Kinison.
Marc:Oh, right, right.
Guest:Who I adored.
Guest:And I thought, no, when I read it, I really thought, no, they have to have something going on.
Guest:Because these two people have not been married either, so they have to have either a great sex life or something's going on.
Guest:So I sexed her up.
Guest:I went in all dolled up, kind of like a 50s housewife in a way, or a little tight dress.
Marc:This is like a defining part of the show.
Guest:Well, they liked it.
Guest:They liked the hit on it.
Guest:So, yeah.
Guest:I mean, that was always my thing.
Guest:Like, if these people are going to fight and, you know, something has to be.
Marc:Can you imagine, can you believe what a lightning rod that show was at that time?
Marc:Unbelievable.
Marc:And how it defined that network, you know, to this day.
Marc:And that if it weren't for your show, like The Simpsons probably wouldn't have happened.
Marc:But it was a cultural lightning rod.
Marc:Can you imagine such an innocent time?
Marc:We're married with children was the lightning rod, the cultural lightning rod.
Marc:We were all stunned.
Guest:I mean, I think, you know, for the first three years, you couldn't even get it unless you had like rabbit ears on your TV.
Marc:You couldn't get Fox.
Guest:Yeah, you couldn't get Fox.
Guest:And so we didn't even know it was successful.
Guest:We knew nothing.
Guest:And then we kind of, Ed and I, I'll never forget, we went on some tour of bowling alleys or, I don't know, they sent us out on some like something.
Guest:And everybody was relating, you know, and we'd get fan mail saying, oh, my family is just like that, or I live next door to those people or blah, blah.
Guest:And I thought, oh, wow, this is really, people are, this is like regular people.
Marc:It was a great caricature of a certain type of America.
Guest:Yeah, it really, really was.
Guest:People liked her clothes.
Guest:People wanted my pegs closed.
Guest:I mean, it was wild.
Marc:It could land on either side.
Marc:The people that got the joke and then the people that were the joke.
Guest:Oh, totally.
Guest:And then the people that hated the joke and then, you know, boosted our ratings because they kept trying to get us off the air.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:It was mostly lefties, right?
Yeah.
Guest:No, it was this one woman.
Guest:I'll never forget.
Guest:We sent her flowers every year.
Guest:Her name was Terry Ricolta.
Guest:And Terry Ricolta wrote this whole thing about, you know, her kid can't, you know, this is not okay for children.
Guest:So tried to get us off the air.
Marc:Karen's old version.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And all it did was got us on the front of the New York times.
Guest:And, you know, it doubled our audience as she was trying.
Guest:Yeah, they loved it.
Marc:Aggravated people.
Guest:Yeah, it really did.
Marc:So.
Marc:Well, it was a great run.
Marc:It was a long run.
Marc:It must have made you pretty rich.
Guest:Yeah, I got pretty rich.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then I got pretty poor, too, because then I got divorced.
Marc:So when did you start having kids?
Guest:I started having kids when I was on Married with Children.
Guest:My first child I lost.
Guest:It was really another sad situation.
Guest:I got sad stories.
Guest:I had a stillborn child and they had written it into the series.
Guest:And then I lost that baby.
Guest:And so that was horrible.
Guest:So they made it, blah, blah.
Guest:And then after that, I went on to have my two older kids and I was pregnant on the show.
Guest:And then they would send me home and pay me.
Guest:They were so like, just go home, lay down.
Marc:They weren't going to take the risk again.
Guest:So it was a great.
Marc:Oh, that must have been so brutal to have that expectation, then have to go to set and like,
Guest:It was horrible.
Guest:It was really, really heartbreaking.
Guest:But I also look at it like I wouldn't have these amazing two older kids that I have if that hadn't happened.
Guest:I wouldn't have anything, you know.
Marc:Oh, so in the divorce, you were the one with the money?
Marc:Is that what happened?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:It's the fucking worst.
Guest:It was hard.
Marc:And this was the first husband?
Marc:The bass player?
Marc:Second husband.
Marc:This is the drummer.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:The drummer.
Marc:Who?
Guest:I only have kind things to say about now because...
Marc:Two kids with him?
Guest:Two kids with him.
Guest:And I wouldn't have them without him.
Marc:And you guys get along?
Marc:The kids get along with both of you?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Everybody's okay.
Marc:It happens, right?
Marc:Eventually?
Guest:Eventually.
Guest:It's taken some time, but eventually, yeah.
Marc:And you landed on your feet?
Guest:Landed on my feet.
Guest:Somebody said to me, oh, don't worry about money.
Marc:You'll make more money.
Marc:When I went through that divorce from that woman, right when you start talking about it, and I'm way over it, but the point being, people said, don't worry about the money.
Marc:I'm like, I got nothing going.
Marc:And and I landed on my feet.
Guest:Yeah, you land on your feet.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:You know, that's kind of how I I sort of live my life like that now, too.
Guest:I just sort of feel like, well, this looks like the shittiest thing that could ever happen.
Guest:However, I've been there before and then it wasn't the shittiest thing that's ever happened.
Guest:So maybe maybe I'm going to look at it that way.
Marc:Well, what I start to realize is that none of it's unusual.
Marc:It's something humans go through, no matter what it is.
Guest:Right.
Marc:There's nothing that's going to happen to you that's going to be like, that's never happened to a human before.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:And there's something comforting about that.
Marc:And that goes from going broke to getting sick to death, whatever.
Guest:All of it.
Guest:It also goes to, you know, the thing that you think is impossible to accomplish.
Guest:If you can find that one person that's done it, then that means you can do it, too.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:But also there is something to be said about acknowledging your limitations.
Marc:Like I'm not going to be an astronaut.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I think that comes with age.
Guest:I think so.
Marc:I think, you know, like it's helpful.
Marc:But I wish you could do it.
Marc:I recommend people do it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:If you have talent, understand what and how to use it so it doesn't strangle you from the inside, you know.
Guest:Yeah, but how do you avoid, if you're creative, not being strangled from the inside?
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:I think it all kind of goes hand in hand.
Marc:There's some things I can't understand.
Marc:Me too.
Marc:The self-loathing thing and how that becomes an engine, I don't quite understand that.
Marc:And I don't like when people think that you do it on purpose.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:Because it's like, why would anyone do that?
Guest:Right.
Marc:Why would anyone nurture that?
Marc:Like this idea that's like, you're just like that so you can create.
Marc:I'm like, believe me.
Guest:No.
Guest:I do not.
Marc:I don't want to be like this.
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, it's the whole, you know, it's like trying to turn your head off.
Guest:You know, it's like, I don't want to think this much.
Marc:I've gotten better, man.
Marc:Do you meditate?
Guest:I am an inconsistent meditator.
Marc:I've been so on it lately.
Guest:Have you been meditating a lot?
Marc:But I didn't do it for years.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I just started like four or five months ago.
Guest:Oh, that's odd.
Guest:What kind of, do you have a breath?
Marc:I do Andy Biddle dummy.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:I always fuck his name up.
Marc:Headspace app.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Andy Biddlecombe.
Guest:Yeah, you're the third person recently.
Guest:I should listen to it.
Marc:I went to a teacher.
Marc:It's just a guided breath meditation.
Marc:There's no visuals.
Marc:It's counting breaths, staying in the breath.
Marc:When thoughts come, get back to the breath.
Marc:That's it.
Guest:Do you do it more than once a day?
Marc:Once a day, 15 minutes.
Guest:Okay, that's great.
Guest:See, I went to a teacher who said to me, you have to do this twice a day for 20 minutes.
Guest:And I was like... That's the TM thing.
Guest:TM.
Guest:And I've done that consistently for periods of time, and then I screw up my own expectation.
Guest:My expectation is like, well, if I can't do it twice a day, I'm just not going to do it at all.
Guest:And so that's messed up.
Marc:That's the only thing I'm learning from it all during this thing, this lockdown and whatever we've all been through is like...
Marc:if I don't have this routine, and now I get up, I started doing five sun salutations, about 10 minutes of yoga, and then I do the meditation every day.
Marc:But I also work out with a trainer three times a week and hike twice a week, so I'm on it.
Marc:But I do it.
Marc:Even when I wake up, it's like that thing about when you first get sober, you make your bed, that shit.
Marc:I still do it.
Marc:I get up to today, I'm like, maybe I'll just put the meditation off, and then I'm doing it.
Marc:I'm doing the meditation.
Marc:That voice is secondary now.
Guest:Oh, I love that.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Do you feel better or do you feel centered?
Marc:I feel like I did it.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Which is good.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's a lot of it.
Marc:I don't know what the meditation is doing for me.
Guest:I think it's a cumulative effect.
Guest:I mean, to me, what I understand and what I've experienced is that you spend that time observing your thoughts, right?
Guest:That's what meditation is.
Marc:Well, you do see the difference between you and your brain.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:That's happening.
Marc:Right.
Marc:The difference between mind and brain.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So then you don't attach so much to all those crazy thoughts.
Marc:Well, it's like that whole thing about feelings aren't thoughts or whatever.
Marc:Aren't facts.
Marc:Aren't facts, but...
Marc:But I still have problems with that.
Marc:They kind of are facts.
Marc:The thoughts that go with feelings may not be the greatest, and you might not want to act on them, but feelings are feelings.
Marc:But I think it's like that sober thing, too, where it's just sort of the next right thing.
Marc:There's that trick of getting into the present, where you really start to realize, and I've known this for a long time, but I don't think I've...
Marc:known it as deeply since I've meditated, that most of what you're reacting to, your brain is making up for one reason or another.
Marc:And you don't have much control over that, but you can, with meditation, separate it more successfully, I think.
Guest:I have a friend who's a big meditator who always tells me that the brain's purpose is to tell you to turn right and then to turn left and then to go when the light is green.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And we assign all these other things to the brain.
Guest:The brain is not to figure out all the stuff that we try to figure out.
Marc:Well, yeah.
Marc:And I used to say that all the time.
Marc:I just got to figure out.
Marc:I just got to figure this out.
Marc:I just got to figure, you know.
Marc:And it's so fucking dumb.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Think your way through it.
Guest:Well, it's dumb.
Guest:Well, and then, you know, that's the whole deal.
Marc:What are you going to figure out, though?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Figuring out is not a step.
Guest:Is not a...
Marc:Yeah, and then there's just the paranoia, the resentment journey.
Marc:Oh, no.
Marc:Where it's just like it comes out of nowhere.
Marc:I'm grateful as fuck, and everything's fine.
Marc:Everything is fine.
Marc:I cannot sit with that.
Marc:Even during this fucking lockdown, every day, my nature is to get up and go like, oh, fuck, I got to... What?
Marc:What do you have to... Nothing.
Marc:There's nothing.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, it's an alcoholic response.
Guest:You know, if you really believe that alcoholism lives in your brain, which is really what it is, the substances aren't really what it's about.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The alcoholic thinking is what fucks with us and it tells you, uh-oh, before it says, oh boy.
Guest:It's like, you know, you wake up just like, oh.
Marc:Here we go.
Guest:Here we go.
Guest:And then, you know, through the process of recovery, I don't think it ever stops.
Guest:That's what I've learned.
Guest:I don't think that that initial sort of uh-oh stops.
Marc:This is my 22nd year.
Guest:Yeah, so you just learn how to manage it.
Guest:That's my experience.
Marc:You just learn how to not... But you know what happens, though, is you do deeply realize and understand that some shit just is not that important.
Marc:And that's the relief of age and sobriety.
Marc:It's like, what the fuck was I worked up about?
Marc:If you think back on all the insanity, it's like, this is stupid.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I mean, I used to really.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Relationships and work.
Guest:Those are my those are my big insane.
Guest:I mean, you know, trying to figure out what if and this is going to happen.
Guest:I mean, nothing is, you know, it's like, you know how it's funny when people say to you, how do you make those career decisions?
Guest:How did you plan to do blah, blah, blah?
Guest:And you're just like, what do you mean?
Guest:I didn't plan anything.
Marc:I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And, you know, somebody offers you this and you take, you know, it's really.
Marc:Flying by the seat of your pants.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Trying to hide your desperation.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:That's what I, that's what I feel too.
Marc:But like I, yeah, relationship, like six years ago, I asked a mentally ill person to marry me.
Oh.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Like I would like I never realized the depth of my codependency until I got into a relationship where I could not see it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And like everyone around me is like, dude, no one said anything, of course.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But I like I broke up with this woman and I had to take out a restraining order and I got back together with them.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:That shit is done.
Marc:That's not going to happen to me again.
Guest:See, that stuff, I think when it gets that extreme, I really do think you won and done.
Guest:I think you learn it.
Guest:I think you really know.
Guest:Then you see the signs.
Marc:Especially if you dodged a fucking bullet.
Guest:You dodged a bullet.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:remember my second marriage and i i didn't know how to get out i didn't know how to and there was all kind of shit going on and i was like i i gotta get out of here and i couldn't get out i was like and uh you know my next husband who's my current husband i would like you know i just was more aware yeah i just had a better picker i remember my first coffee date with my current husband i took my sponsor with me really oh
Guest:Yeah, because I thought, I don't know what's good.
Guest:Yeah, I was like, I messed up.
Marc:So I brought my security cam.
Marc:I did.
Guest:Like at halfway through, she goes, yeah, I think you're good.
Guest:It's okay.
Guest:So she left.
Marc:That's cute.
Guest:It was, well, it was necessary.
Guest:I was not, you know, I don't like to repeat my...
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:That's one of the benefits of sobriety.
Marc:I don't know where the fuck I got the energy.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Like I look like I just got a kitten, you know, and I've been through this shit with these cats before, you know, where it's just you forget the insanity.
Marc:But I go, I look back at certain relationships, like even the horrible ones where I was a monster and whatever.
Marc:Like, I don't know where it comes from, but it's it's probably still in there somewhere.
Marc:The monster?
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Oh, 100%.
Guest:Are you kidding?
Guest:I don't think we lose our defects.
Guest:I mean, that's why... You know, the benefit of sobriety is... The benefit and the struggle is now you're awake.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:You are awake.
Marc:You can make choices.
Guest:And you have no choice but to do... I mean, I suppose you can just live in bad behavior.
Guest:You can just sort of do that.
Guest:However, you're just, you know...
Guest:you're awake and aware and you have to take responsibility and you're accountable.
Guest:You're all that shit.
Guest:I'll tell you what I know.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So then you go shopping too much and hopefully you don't, I just try to balance sugar and caffeine.
Marc:Like I can't even let myself do the shopping to the degree I should, I should have a good time.
Guest:I know.
Marc:So we all right?
Marc:We good?
Marc:We get it all covered?
Guest:I think so.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:We didn't talk much about work.
Marc:Oh, we did talk about my new TV show.
Guest:Watch my new TV show.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:The Rebel.
Marc:It's just Rebel.
Marc:Rebel.
Marc:Rebel.
Marc:She's saving the world.
Guest:She's trying to, yeah.
Guest:She's actually a very- Very entertaining.
Guest:She's an empowering- Thanks for saying that.
Guest:She's an empowering-
Guest:What I like playing about her the most is she empowers other people.
Marc:It's all about that.
Guest:She's not about, here, let me catch the fish for you.
Guest:It's about, here, take the pole, go down to the stream, and figure it out.
Marc:Yeah, I know, it's enjoyable.
Marc:Great.
Marc:Did you do any G stuff?
Marc:No, I don't.
Guest:You know, my dad was like, my dad was more a socialist than anything else.
Guest:He was not a religious Jew.
Guest:One time we had a Passover.
Guest:This is funny.
Guest:We had a Passover service at my house and my dad put on this record by this guy named Moshe Oysha.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he was trying to follow the record.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so my little Yiddish grandmother comes over and was so condescending and mean to him and just like laughed at him.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So that was it.
Guest:There went the record.
Guest:There went Passover.
Marc:There went, you know, that was it.
Marc:But you never went over to the Lears or anything like that?
Guest:No, no, I did.
Guest:I had passed over with the Lears about five years ago.
Guest:All of us came over, and he had all the kids over in my family.
Marc:The many Lear kids?
Guest:The many, and then their Lear kids.
Marc:Generations, yes.
Guest:Yes, he's got awesome kids.
Marc:Well, he's got a kid that's in his 20s or 30s.
Guest:Twins.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They're girls.
Guest:They're twins.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That he had with Lynn.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:They're wonderful.
Guest:They're great.
Guest:He's, you know, I love Norman.
Guest:I did his podcast just a little while ago.
Marc:I didn't know he had one.
Marc:He did.
Marc:The last time I saw him was at, I think it was at Bob Saget's birthday party.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:Is that possible?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's a Bob Saget's birthday party at somebody's house that's built on where the Tate House was, the Sharon Tate House was.
Marc:Big producer of probably that show Bob was on.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I was at a party at that house, too, and Tom Jones performed.
Guest:Is that the same house?
Marc:Probably.
Marc:Big old house.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:I went with Craig Schumacher.
Guest:Do you know Craig Schumacher?
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Guest:So Craig invited me.
Marc:The love master.
Guest:The love master.
Guest:So he invited me to this party and we went and he goes, come to this thing.
Guest:And Tom Jones is going to, you know, and I was like, hey, man, it's one in the morning.
Guest:Where's Tom Jones?
Guest:I'm tired.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And he came.
Guest:He finally showed up.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Me and Norman and I think Bill Burr had a cigar.
Marc:The old man smoked a cigar.
Guest:Was it by the grotto?
Guest:Do you remember that water grotto?
Marc:It was somewhere in there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But this is the house that that guy built, right?
Marc:The producer.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What was the show that Saget was on?
Guest:You know, with Bob, with the drummer, with John Stamos.
Marc:Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Guest:My kid watches it now.
Guest:Not growing.
Guest:I can't think of the name now.
Guest:But yes, that show.
Marc:Made a billion dollars, that guy.
Guest:A billion dollars and built that house.
Marc:It was a pleasure.
Guest:It was really nice to see you, meet you.
Guest:I feel like I had met you before, but I don't know if I have.
Marc:Well, we've known each other for centuries.
Guest:Have we?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:It's good to go back to many lives, all the way back to the Ukraine.
Guest:Ah, maybe.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It does seem the older you get, it feels like you know everybody.
Marc:Well, there's some people you just kind of get a sense of.
Marc:You vibe with.
Marc:You're going to have some hand sanitizer?
Marc:I am.
Marc:Knock yourself out.
Marc:I will.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Well, good luck with the show.
Guest:Thank you so much, Mark.
Guest:I'm thrilled to have been here.
Marc:It's nice to see you.
Bye.
Marc:How was that?
Marc:That was great, right?
Marc:How good was that?
Marc:I gave her a mug and it broke and she hasn't gotten back to me.
Marc:I want to get her a mug, a Brian Jones mug that isn't broken.
Marc:It's so nice to have people back in the room here.
Marc:Also, did I mention Katie's new show, Rebel, airs Thursdays on ABC.
Marc:It premieres tonight at 10 p.m.
Marc:Eastern.
Marc:I did two takes on this music because the first one I didn't want.
Marc:I just landed on another stinky blues riff.
Marc:that moved me in the moment so
Thank you.
Guest:Boomer lives.
Guest:And Monkey and LaFonda.
Guest:Cat angels fucking everywhere.
Guest:But Sammy the Red is here.
Guest:And Buster's on top of it.
Guest:Too many cats!