Episode 1206 - Jake Gyllenhaal
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what the fuckadelics what's happening how's everybody doing are you okay are you be honest with me because i am definitely not okay
Marc:I mean, I'm not really bad, but I'm not okay.
Marc:I've had enough of this shit.
Marc:I'm done with it.
Marc:How many times have I said this over the last year?
Marc:When is the year anniversary of lockdown?
Marc:Soon, right?
Marc:Any day now.
Marc:God damn it, I want a vaccine.
Marc:Look, today on the show, I talked to Jake Gyllenhaal.
Marc:You know him from Donnie Darko, Brokeback Mountain, Nightcrawler.
Marc:He's been doing more stage acting of late, and he's nominated for three Tony Awards this year.
Marc:Great actor, that kid.
Marc:Can I call him a kid?
Marc:I think he's younger than me enough for me to call him a kid.
Marc:I had no idea what to expect.
Marc:I never do.
Marc:I never do.
Marc:And it turns out he didn't know what to expect out of me either.
Marc:It was a nice conversation.
Marc:He's a nice fella, that Jake Gyllenhaal.
Marc:Also, I'd like to give you a heads up.
Marc:Just today, and I'm recording this yesterday, I talked to Eddie Murphy.
Marc:Eddie Murphy for an hour had Eddie Murphy's face right in front of mine on screen for an hour.
Marc:And we hashed it out.
Marc:We did the comic talk thing.
Marc:We talked about the old days.
Marc:We talked about doing the standup.
Marc:We talked about prior.
Marc:We talked about the movies.
Marc:We talked about being a star.
Marc:We took, we did the talk, me and Eddie Murphy.
Marc:And I got a beautiful picture.
Marc:big laugh out of them right out of the gate it's it's interesting with the zoom and just in general actually that's it that's that's that's a good point mark why don't you talk about it it's interesting because before the plague when people would come to my house which is what was the what was required of them to do the show was to come to my house this house and the old house it
Marc:is that I'd have that moment where I'd answer the door, I'd get there, if they came with people, I'd get them a soda or water or coffee or tea, let them use the restroom, have a little chit chat, not too much, but sort of get grounded or get connected in the way the two humans get connected for the five to 10 minutes
Marc:Before we get out here and get on the mic.
Marc:So there's a lot of sort of a small talk.
Marc:And hey, how are you?
Marc:And what's going on?
Marc:What was the drive like?
Marc:What kind of shoes are those?
Marc:Where are you at with that thing?
Marc:Everything all right?
Marc:A little of that.
Marc:So there's some ice breakage going on.
Marc:You ease into the conversation out here.
Marc:That's how it was in the old days.
Marc:But now with Zoom, it's a little tricky because, you know, I get on and we make sure the tech is working all right.
Marc:There's a few bits of chit chat as people get set up.
Marc:But usually you're kind of going in cold.
Marc:And you don't know what the connection is going to hinge on or whether there's going to be a connection, whether things are going to start cooking or whether things are going to like just be kind of a trial.
Marc:All that shit aside, when I'm doing the Zoom, you know, I got to I got to figure out how to get in pretty quick.
Marc:And I got to be honest with you.
Marc:It was very rewarding.
Marc:When Eddie Murphy got on and I took I took a shot at his where he was sitting and man, big laugh from Eddie.
Marc:And it was exciting.
Marc:But more than getting the laugh as a comic, which is great, it was that, OK, so now we can have this conversation.
Marc:You know, he knows I can do that.
Marc:I'm not afraid.
Marc:I'm a comedian.
Marc:I made him laugh.
Marc:And now he's like popped him open.
Marc:And here we go.
Marc:Broke the ice.
Marc:Huh?
Marc:That's what you use comedy for sometimes.
Marc:Remember you marginally funny people?
Marc:Maybe say a little funny thing.
Marc:Got a little funny thing to say to break the ice?
Marc:A little something?
Marc:Got a little bit you do to break the ice?
Marc:Do you?
Yeah.
Marc:But you know what's amazing about this downtime, about this plague time, about all the fucking... I'm fortunate that I'm not freaking out about money.
Marc:I'm not freaking out about my health.
Marc:I'm sad, but some things are in place.
Marc:But you know what's amazing is that with all, even though I'm working, I'm busy, but I'll tell you, I'm still putting stuff off.
Marc:I mean, what is it, almost been a year?
Marc:I got shit in my house that I need to do and I want to do.
Marc:Minor shit, little things, organizing rooms, going through shit.
Marc:Putting a thing up on the wall.
Marc:Doing that thing that needs to be done outside.
Marc:Getting that thing done in the garage.
Marc:Whatever the fuck it is.
Marc:There's still a bunch of shit that I am putting off.
Marc:How is that even fucking possible?
Marc:I'm going to get through a year of this and we're going to get back to some semblance of, you know, social engagement of being able to go do things.
Marc:And I'm going to say, like, God damn it.
Marc:Why didn't I get that done?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Why didn't I get my office fucking set up at my house?
Marc:Why didn't I get rid of all that shit?
Marc:Why didn't I get rid of those books?
Marc:Why didn't I get that switch put in the wall?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Why didn't I fucking fix that goddamn thing in the garage?
Marc:I'm going to get through a year of this and still have shit I haven't done.
Marc:Why didn't I read all of those books that I have been putting off reading my entire life?
Marc:Why didn't I fucking learn how to play chess?
Marc:Why didn't I figure out how to become a baker?
Marc:Why did I not create a rocket that we could all go up in and travel to outer space together?
Marc:And why didn't I cure COVID on my own?
Marc:Why didn't I make a movie?
Marc:Why didn't I write that script?
Marc:How come my novel's not finished?
Marc:What have I got to show for myself?
Marc:I have a few pages and a small notebook.
Marc:I wrote a song.
Marc:I talked to some talented people.
Marc:I processed my shit.
Marc:But I did not learn how to bake a bread.
Marc:Many people did.
Marc:There's just some shit I'm still putting off.
Marc:And you know what?
Marc:I'm going to go ahead and beat the shit out of myself for that.
Marc:You know why?
Marc:Because that's what I do.
Marc:That's part of my job.
Marc:What do you do?
Marc:I'm a clown and I kick my own ass.
Marc:You?
Marc:You?
Marc:Why didn't I learn Tai Chi during lockdown?
Marc:Why didn't I read Gravity's Rainbow during lockdown?
Marc:Why didn't I buy new sheets?
Marc:Why is that light bulb still out for a year?
Marc:Fucking hell, man.
Marc:I think I'm getting a kitten.
Marc:It seems like we're moving towards kitten-ness for Buster.
Marc:I'm saying it's for Buster.
Marc:What if Buster doesn't like it?
Marc:You know, I mean, Buster's kind of a bruiser.
Marc:He's kind of a bully, that fucking cat.
Marc:But I've decided that I should have two cats primarily for him to, you know, like I'm so I can't tell you, man, projecting onto pets is especially now that I'm basically alone in the house, just sitting there looking at him like, what, you sad, buddy?
Marc:Where you at?
Marc:You bummed out?
Marc:Are you mad at yourself that you didn't read Gravity's Rainbow during lockdown?
Marc:Are you pissed off that you didn't finish scratching up that fucking couch?
Marc:There's time, man.
Marc:Are you mad that you've got a profound catnip problem and you're fucking half out of it all the time?
Marc:Does that bother you?
Marc:Are you sick?
Marc:Do you need me to take you in?
Marc:I have projected I can't tell you how many times in my life I've taken cats to vets where there's nothing fucking wrong.
Marc:But what what I think there's I remember bringing monkey to the vet once because I decided he wasn't shitting.
Marc:And I brought him to the emergency vet because I decided it was problematic and he was going to somehow die from not shitting.
Marc:And I brought him there.
Marc:And as soon as they got him out of that cage and they put him on a table, he shit all over everything.
Marc:So I guess taking him to the vet worked.
Marc:It cost me probably $200 for him to shit all over the vet.
Marc:But I've decided that Buster needs a friend and I've got one lined up that I think I'm going to call Mingus.
Marc:Why didn't I get a kitten during lockdown?
Marc:It might happen.
Marc:I had dreams about Lynn the other night and they come and go, but I'm trying to relish in them and enjoy them as opposed to wake up
Marc:So sad.
Marc:It's a challenge, but it is always good to see her.
Marc:So Jake Gyllenhaal is nominated for three Tony Awards this year, one for Best Actor in a Play for his performance in Seawall, A Life.
Marc:But he's also nominated as the producer of Seawall Life and also Slave Play, which are both up for best play.
Marc:This is what he's doing.
Marc:Aside from starring in films, aside from being a movie star, he's a theatrical producer and stage actor.
Marc:And I talked to him.
Marc:And we got to know each other.
Marc:This is me and Jake Gyllenhaal.
Guest:My one issue is I'm going to take some very long pauses for dramatic intent and emphasis.
Guest:And if you cut those fucking pauses, man.
Guest:No, man.
Guest:Because there's going to be a whole interview full of long pauses.
Guest:So please just don't cut them.
Guest:Every answer is going to be an ellipses filled thing for you.
Guest:Just wait.
Guest:You're going to be able to take a nap through most of it.
Guest:So this is going to be cruise control for you, Mark.
Marc:Yeah, well, let me get comfortable.
Marc:I got a pillow.
Marc:I just, you know, look, man, if you want to, you can edit this later.
Marc:You know, let us know if the pauses weren't long enough, if you want Brendan to lengthen a pause.
Marc:You know, I was talking to Jodie Foster about Fincher.
Marc:I talked to him for like two hours.
Marc:And like an hour or two after he talked to me, he's like, yeah, it wasn't good enough.
Marc:Maybe don't put it out.
Marc:I feel like I could do better.
Marc:I swear to God, man.
Marc:So I'm sitting on this fucking Fincher interview with the assumption that someday we'll continue the conversation.
Marc:And that was years ago.
Guest:You're not going to continue it.
Guest:You're going to redo it.
Marc:I guess.
Marc:You're just going to reach you.
Guest:You're going to experience the exact same thing all over again.
Marc:I just shot a movie on film and we did not have the luxury of takes.
Guest:Why did you do that?
Marc:I don't know, man.
Marc:Look, it was the middle of COVID.
Marc:Some director really wanted me to do this role, and he had 19 days to shoot a feature, and he was shooting on film.
Marc:Oh, my gosh.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, you had maybe one to three takes.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:Well, there is something to that.
Guest:I will say there is something to knowing there is a finite amount with which they can actually record what you've done, and there's like a...
Guest:I think that anxiety is... It's not even anxiety.
Guest:I think it's exciting.
Guest:It is.
Marc:You've got to show up.
Marc:You've got to do it.
Marc:When you have it in your brain, it's not even on video.
Marc:You can just do a million.
Marc:You're sort of like, can we just do that again just for me?
Marc:Thanks.
Marc:Totally.
Guest:No problem.
Guest:I do think the digital age, as extraordinary as it is, has led to a bit of wandering.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, you also like a bit of it's it's a certain type of productive laziness almost like, you know, you you can just keep trying, you know, even half ass until you stumble on something.
Marc:I think it's sort of fucked up writing, too, because I don't know, maybe maybe I'm being a stickler.
Marc:But the idea of like cutting and pasting, you know, no one had that.
Marc:Do you like major novels were written with white out?
Guest:Yes, I mean, my mother is a writer, and I remember being on her typewriter as a child, and one of the things I loved to do was type nonsense and then white it out.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:That's what I did.
Guest:I would just type a bunch of different letters, and then I would decide to just sort of erase half of them.
Guest:White out was the coolest thing on a typewriter for a long time.
Marc:And it was probably one of those Selectrics that had the built-in whiteout thing.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:No, she had only the best of the best.
Marc:But that's a weird thing, though, because when you think about shooting on film, it's like you've really got to show up all in and ready for work.
Marc:I'm not saying that you don't usually, but there's more at stake and the process of it.
Marc:And I think that when you wrote and you knew you had to white stuff out or if you wanted to rewrite a page, you had to rewrite a page.
Guest:There was a moment when you realized you had misspelled.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was a moment.
Guest:That was a legit moment.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Now it's just taken away from you immediately.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You don't even know you've misspelled.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There's this false sense of ego while you're writing, you know, you write and all of a sudden it's auto correct.
Marc:And then when it really comes down to, I don't even know if I know how to handwrite anymore.
Marc:I don't know if I know how to.
Marc:I'm having trouble with words.
Marc:I could not fucking figure out how to spell sociable the other day.
Marc:Like, I really could not figure it out.
Marc:I didn't understand.
Marc:Sociable, right?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Basically.
Marc:There's no L in it.
Marc:And I was like, and it really stumped me.
Marc:And I felt like, why am I, do I have Alzheimer's or is it just a product of my time?
Guest:Well, yes.
Guest:I mean, I think it's a product of the time.
Guest:I'm going to tell you that.
Guest:I'm going to diagnose you right now.
Marc:I appreciate that.
Marc:Is this a medical call?
Marc:This is good.
Marc:I have some other problems.
Marc:You want to make me feel better about some other shit?
Guest:Isn't that sort of what a podcast is about?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:It's about making me feel better, Jake.
Marc:I appreciate you showing up to do that.
Guest:No problem.
Marc:Do you have allergies?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Are they fucking with you now?
Guest:Not really.
Guest:Why, do I sound stuffy?
Marc:No, I think I have allergies, but I haven't been diagnosed.
Marc:I was looking for a little diagnosis again.
Guest:Yeah, no, I'm definitely allergic to dust.
Marc:Oh, dust, but not like seasonal?
Marc:And cats.
Marc:Cats?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, seasonal too.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Guest:My grandfather was asthmatic and had a lot of allergies.
Guest:I think I've, I'm not asthmatic, but I definitely have.
Marc:Is that a genetic thing?
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Guest:It is.
Guest:I also believe it's epigenetic.
Guest:We could get into that.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Epigenetic means learned?
Marc:You learned your allergies?
Marc:What is epigenetic?
Guest:Sort of.
Guest:Sort of.
Guest:I don't, don't, please.
Guest:Just, this is where, this is where it really goes off the rails.
Guest:But I, it's, it is, it is sort of that, I believe, I guess I should say that you can have allergies and I think you can sort of
Guest:get through them maybe, but I, I'm not a really, I haven't yet gotten through mine.
Guest:You know, I think they're resolvable through, through sort of focus, maybe, maybe analysis, meditation, mindfulness.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Some of them like, um,
Marc:No, they go away.
Marc:The guy that was just on, my producer, Brendan, he had a peanut allergy all his life.
Marc:And it went away.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And we were producing radio back in the day when it happened.
Marc:And we would do a segment of him eating things with peanuts in it for the first time in his life.
Oh, my God.
Marc:It's the best thing in the world.
Guest:And does he enjoy peanuts now?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I think so.
Marc:How could you not?
Guest:Well, I mean, I don't know.
Guest:I mean, maybe you're allergic to it and you taste it and you don't like it.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I think he had a good time.
Marc:I think I mean, maybe he'll message me and we'll get confirmation.
Marc:But can you imagine eating a Snickers bar for the first time as an adult?
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:It's the best thing in the world.
Marc:i know but it's not as good as when you had it when you were a kid there's no i guess so my mom was kind of weird about sweet so same with mine he oh he brendan just says he texted me love peanuts i eat peanut butter every day every day with a vengeance
Guest:I want to talk to Brendan about that.
Guest:That's in our second version of this.
Marc:When you tell me I can't run this one and you'd rather have Brendan involved with the next one.
Marc:You can't run this one, Mark.
Marc:Is that a real home that you're in?
Marc:It doesn't seem there's as much decor there.
Guest:I'm staying in a home.
Guest:I'm staying in a home.
Guest:I'm right now.
Guest:I'm filming a movie, actually.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:This is not my home.
Marc:Oh, you're doing it with the COVID protocol.
Marc:Zone one, zone two, mask up.
Marc:It's intense, right?
Marc:Zone A, zone B. Yeah, zone A, zone B. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:But it gets a little sloppy after a while, doesn't it?
Marc:You're like, are we doing it or are we not doing it?
Guest:I mean, it's weird.
Guest:As an actor in it, it does get confusing, you know?
Guest:It depends on also the process.
Guest:If you're in it and you have your mask off and then there's a little space between takes, it's very hard.
Guest:I've been having difficulty because my wardrobe, and this is not like some...
Guest:fantasy world i'm in it has no pockets normally you just take your mask off you put in your pocket right yeah and you take it back on you put it back you pick it out of your pocket yeah right yeah but i have no pockets right i've just been finding places to put the mask yeah because i don't want to waste masks you know i mean you just stash them you know with your sides you know put it
Guest:No, but then that's lit.
Guest:You're littering.
Guest:I wouldn't be able to keep track.
Guest:Where your sides go.
Marc:Don't you ever have the mini sides that you just stick in the drawer when you're at the desk?
Guest:No, I know my lines top to bottom.
Guest:Do you?
Guest:Always?
Guest:No, I don't.
Guest:That's not true.
Marc:Do you use the big sides or the mini sides?
Marc:You got to use the mini sides, right?
Guest:I am actually, I have terrible eyesight.
Guest:Oh, so you're a big sides guy?
Guest:I'm a big sides guy.
Guest:And I also find they're better when you're in a rough spot to refer to quickly.
Guest:Mini sides are hard to refer to.
Marc:You're like, wait, where are we?
Marc:What number?
Marc:What number?
Guest:But it's also, it's like you're searching through little dots.
Guest:For me, it looks like just little dots.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And you've got to mark them up.
Marc:And now they're weird with sides, too.
Marc:Like, they've got to be in a bag.
Marc:They've got to be yours.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'll have my own side.
Marc:I like to mark my sides, like, you know, with the highlighter.
Marc:I still do that.
Marc:You still highlight?
Guest:Of course.
Guest:Hold on a second.
Guest:There's this one.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Hold on a second.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Guest:This is, yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Do you use all different colors on one script?
Guest:Well, I found these ones, and what I found really great about them, I do use different colors, but what I thought was, this is, it's obviously a podcast, so no one can hear to see this, but it's called a clear view, so you can see the word as you.
Marc:Oh, it's got a little magnifying glass in the actual... No, no, no, no.
Guest:It's just clear.
Guest:Oh, I see.
Guest:So you can see the words as you highlight them.
Marc:A little lens within the point of the marker.
Marc:What's this movie, man?
Marc:What have we come to?
Marc:Is that the name of the movie?
Guest:The movie is... I mean, it's called Ambulance.
Marc:Ah.
Marc:And you're... What?
Guest:How do I... Can I pitch this?
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:Are you allowed to?
Marc:Who's directing it?
Guest:Michael Bay.
Marc:Oh, that's big.
Marc:A lot of action?
Marc:Is it an action ambulance movie?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Does the ambulance flip and turn many times?
Guest:Well, it definitely turns.
Guest:It's not a movie where the ambulance just goes straight the whole time.
Marc:Is there a chase, though?
Marc:A chase where it rolls?
Guest:I mean, it never rolls.
Guest:No, it doesn't ever roll.
Guest:I mean, well, yeah, I don't want to spoil it.
Guest:That's a plot point.
Marc:But it's called an ambulance, so I think it's safe to go ahead and say it involves an ambulance and you.
Guest:Wait, no, it's called Ambulance, not An Ambulance, which would be an amazing title for something.
Guest:An Ambulance.
Guest:Yeah, An Ambulance.
Marc:And you never leave the ambulance.
Marc:It's just the back of an ambulance.
Guest:It's like a Pinter play, but it's in the back of an ambulance.
Marc:Yeah, just yelling men in the back of an ambulance.
Marc:i mean sort of it's it's one woman two guys and that's yeah yeah that's what it is oh did you ever do any pinter plays never i've never done a pinter play holy shit man have you seen the homecoming no oh my god it's just bile man it's just like it is like a full it's the full spectrum of uh toxic maleness from another time and it's english toxic maleness
Guest:Well, there are many playwrights that you could go through and claim that.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Pinter definitely has his share.
Marc:You are now nominated in a couple different categories for theater.
Marc:You're like a bonafide theater guy now, for real.
Guest:Do you get to claim that?
Marc:I'm going to say it right now.
Marc:I'm probably going to say it again and again when I introduce you.
Marc:Bonafide theater guy, Jake Gyllenhaal.
Marc:No, but I mean, you're up for producing and you're up for acting.
Marc:And the thing that you produced was some real...
Marc:kind of provocative ballsy art that must have taken i mean to do slave play and to what was the process of choosing to produce that getting involved with that because it made a lot of waves and it's so exciting to know that that kind of theater not only is it being done but it was popular
Guest:Well, it was simple.
Guest:I saw it off-Broadway.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was extraordinary.
Guest:And, you know, I think my producing partner and I, her name is Reva Marker, we just...
Guest:You know, one of the things that I feel is like theater is my love.
Guest:It has been since I was a little kid.
Guest:And it, you know, I not only I mean, you can talk to pretty much any actor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Who even as a child was at first was performing on the stage, you know?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So is that what you were?
Marc:You started on stage?
Guest:Not professionally, I didn't, but yes.
Marc:Like children's theater?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Everything I was doing when I was a kid was like, I did children's theater, yes.
Marc:Here in L.A., where'd you grow up?
Guest:I grew up in Los Angeles, yeah.
Marc:And there was like a children's theater?
Marc:Because I've talked to a lot of actors that did that.
Marc:I mean, some children's theaters were really kind of like the real deal.
Marc:I mean, you worked, you learned, you did things.
Guest:I mean...
Guest:I don't know why, but I grew up, I was always sort of taught by my family and whatever it was that you chose to do, it had to have sort of a craft.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Surprise.
Marc:You were taught that?
Marc:Because your dad was a director, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:director my mother was is a writer and um so they were big on like learning the thing well i think i think most of all they were just my mother in particular both of them were just education of any kind was very important oh yeah yeah you know knowing the history of whatever it was you were doing and
Guest:learning from the classics and knowing what came before you, you know.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I don't know.
Guest:That to me was, that was always sort of part of it for us.
Marc:But when you grew up, though, you thought about the stage more than you thought about, you know, film?
Marc:Because, I mean, you were doing both, I guess.
Marc:You did film pretty early.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I don't know how much I was thinking about the medium at a certain age.
Marc:At seven, you weren't saying, like, I just want to do theater.
Guest:Like, gratefully, I wasn't one of those kids.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:But I just knew I had—it gave me so much joy.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And I also knew, like, I sort of—
Guest:I was super stimulated by the thrill and the intensity of an audience, like a live audience.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it didn't... Though it made me nervous, it also...
Guest:it was something else.
Guest:It's sort of something inexplicable.
Guest:I can't figure, even to this day, I can't really explain, you know, it is such a crazy craft.
Guest:I mean, you know, to, to, to somehow enjoy being in a spotlight where you can see nothing, you know, and sort, sort of see the other act you're working with.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And like, and have an audience responding this, in this blackness, like where you can't even, you know, that, that sort of thing is an,
Marc:it's not for the faint of heart and it's a very odd process it's just so strange and to actually enjoy something like that it makes you a very odd person yeah well it's so heightened you know that whole sort of being on stage with other actors and well yeah I mean I guess it is most people it scares the shit out of but you can also see just in the way you explained it how it would be completely addicting and enchanting like if you've got the thing for it then you know why would you ever want to stop doing that
Guest:Well, interpreting something great, I don't think there's anything better.
Guest:I mean, the only time that I've ever felt oddly comfortable was when I had music underneath me, you know, when I had a downbeat.
Guest:I remember doing a concert at City Center of Sunday in the Park with George, the show that we eventually did on Broadway.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, when you're doing this concert at City Center, they're readings basically where you rehearse for four days and then you have the script in front of you sometimes.
Guest:You know half your life.
Guest:It's one of those nightmare dreams.
Guest:You know half your lines, basically.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:And you have the script with you.
Guest:And I remember not being nervous before I went out in front of like 5,000 people at City Center.
Guest:And that made me freak out.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:You know, just sort of being like, I feel comfortable.
Guest:This is odd.
Guest:I don't know what's going on.
Marc:And how did it go?
Guest:You shouldn't feel comfortable.
Guest:It was great.
Guest:I mean, we took the show to Broadway, so it went well.
Marc:So that was a big musical, and musicals are this whole other thing.
Marc:I like musicals.
Marc:I don't go to a lot of musicals.
Marc:I've never been in a musical, but anytime there are people singing and dancing, I get moved to tears, even if it's not sad.
Marc:I agree.
Guest:Me too.
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:There's just such output, a human output, vulnerability.
Guest:Because it's brave, yeah.
Guest:It's brave to be that vulnerable.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And I think we kind of all, I mean, not all of us, but I...
Guest:I'm so desperate to try and be open, even though most of the time, you know, um, I'm a pain, you know, I, I so want to be that when you're sitting in the dark and you're watching somebody be just so vulnerable and open, it's just, it's inspiring and it's really moving.
Guest:And I, I, you know, it's also a, you can feel the community.
Guest:I don't know how you think about it, but you can feel the community of particularly musical theater.
Guest:There's this such a deep support when I did, uh,
Guest:When I was doing that show that I was talking about before, we had so many swings as we moved into the actors who come in and out.
Guest:And on stage, when you're doing a play with no music, you have understudies, but very rarely do they come out.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:When you're doing a Broadway musical, people are interchanging parts constantly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because there are other factors.
Guest:There's voice, there's dance, someone's injured, something happens.
Guest:And so the level of skill it takes, people know three or four parts at a time where they're playing one other part.
Guest:And then one night someone comes in and they're playing the other part.
Guest:And someone else has moved in for them.
Guest:And right before the show, everyone is so loving and supportive of
Guest:of the people who are coming in to play these parts, they are just buoyed up by the cast.
Guest:I didn't experience that as much in plays.
Guest:Like straight actors don't have the same kind of like just full hearted, like I'm going to give you everything tonight because music does something to people.
Marc:Yeah, because the collaboration is literally you're singing at the same time.
Marc:You're engaged in the same piece of music.
Marc:Unless you can look at a whole play as a singular piece, I think most actors in plays, depending on what their character is, are kind of selfish animals.
Marc:And you're just looking for that.
Marc:You just want to be present for the other people, the other actors in your moments.
Marc:But I would imagine with singing, it's sort of like, we're singing now.
Marc:There's none of that.
Marc:Obviously, we're present.
Guest:But I think silence has a lot to do with it, too.
Marc:With musicals?
Guest:Well, what you notice, I feel like when you do a play, is that you can hear the audience so much more clearly.
Guest:You can hear when a cell phone goes off.
Guest:You can hear when somebody's doing something.
Guest:The coughing guy.
Guest:When you're doing a musical, you can't hear any of that stuff.
Guest:Unless there's an ebb in the music, you can't hear any of that stuff.
Guest:There's a sense of when an understudy comes on to play a role in a moment, and when I've had to cover something for someone...
Guest:There's this silence.
Guest:It's never-ending.
Guest:There's no music on either side.
Guest:It's just you with lines you kind of know.
Guest:You know?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:And I guess other people would be more scared of a downbeat and music playing and a 22-piece orchestra behind them, but I think the silence is actually more terrifying.
Marc:No, silence is horrible, especially if you don't... It's you and your brain.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And in that moment where you're like, I can fuck up, where you just want to disappear or cry, you're...
Guest:Yeah, but then if you cry, everyone's like, oh, that was amazing.
Marc:I know it wasn't in a play and had nothing to do with anything.
Guest:What a choice.
Marc:What a choice.
Guest:What a choice.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Yeah, it was a choice because I didn't know what the lines were.
Marc:And I was truly sad in that moment.
Marc:So that's interesting to me that you think of theater as being sort of part of your DNA from when you were a kid.
Marc:So when you're put in a position to be able to produce things, you connect with it directly like that.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:The company that I started...
Guest:I guess it's like, I don't know, six or seven years ago now, we started to produce the things that I was in.
Guest:It was just such a wonderful process.
Guest:And so then we started thinking, well, let's find artists that we love and want to support and try and bring their stories to the stage and then bring those stories if they're already on stage to a larger audience.
Guest:That was really the goal with Slave Play was this, there was this incredible piece of work.
Guest:It was challenging.
Guest:It was provocative.
Guest:And I thought, you know, when I finally met with Jeremy O'Harris, who wrote it, you know, his goal was to bring a story like that to a larger audience and to do it in a way that was authentic and his own.
Guest:And, you know, the way I look at theater, particularly Broadway, is there's a kind of,
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:There's there's there's there's a way in which it's always been done.
Guest:And that's beautiful.
Guest:But we're a much younger company.
Guest:We're pretty ambitious.
Guest:And we just wanted to break it open.
Guest:You have a certain number of theaters.
Guest:There's a set schedule all the time, you know.
Guest:The same kind of five or six producers are putting things in at different times.
Guest:And I was just thinking, I'd love to mix it up and be a part of things that do.
Guest:And when I saw Slate play, I said, maybe we can help them.
Guest:And Jeremy was like, I would love that.
Guest:You know, it just went along with the spirit of his show to have a younger group of producers together.
Guest:you know, bring it there.
Guest:So that was Slave Play and it just shocked me and hit me in a way that I want theater to do.
Guest:I mean, I remember walking out of the show for the first time
Guest:thinking, this is why I go to the theater.
Guest:And I haven't felt that in a long time.
Marc:This one sounds like one of those things where, you know, there's... Provocative is one thing, but something that kind of pushes buttons to the point of being controversial is not something you necessarily see on Broadway.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, you're dealing with race, you're dealing with sex, you're dealing with relationships.
Guest:All in one.
Guest:The thing for me about... Well, when you're dealing with...
Guest:You know, I remember when I saw Fun Home, for instance.
Guest:Did you see Fun Home?
Guest:No.
Guest:I remember when I saw Fun Home at the public theater, which is an incredible musical.
Guest:And I remember not knowing anything about, actually, Alison Blackfield's based on a graphic novel.
Guest:And I remember I didn't really know her work at the time.
Guest:And I walked in the public theater and I saw this piece.
Guest:And it, you know, I walked in sort of hesitantly.
Guest:I was alone.
Guest:I was told to go see it by a friend who said it was wonderful.
Guest:And I was sort of unsure the first five minutes.
Guest:And then after the first five minutes, I ended up sort of weeping through the entire show all the way home.
Guest:And the show is about a...
Guest:A gay female cartoonist whose father was gay and who never, never came out and ends up killing himself.
Guest:And she ends up telling a story about her own journey through all those same questions through him.
Guest:Now, when you hear that, you go, you know, how is that fully relatable to a wider audience?
Guest:It was all about family and all about the secrets that we have.
Guest:hold from each other, the fear we have within our families, not just the secrets of sexuality or whatever it might be.
Guest:The secrets that we just, the ones that feel so big to us, but would be so small to other people that when you told someone else, they go, what the hell?
Guest:What's the big deal?
Guest:Just tell your dad, just, you know, whatever it might be.
Guest:And it hit me so deeply in my heart.
Guest:And I felt that way about Slave Play.
Guest:That somehow I, when I watched it for the first time, I thought, I have so much to learn.
Guest:I see the world in a particular way because of my position.
Guest:And it was just, it was, it cracked me open.
Guest:And yeah, so when you say, it's not just provocative.
Guest:When I say provocative, I mean that.
Guest:I mean that.
Guest:It, it, it like knocked at my heart and it made me say like, Hey, you got a lot of shit wrong here, you know?
Guest:And also you're on the right track, you know, kind of, there was a, there was a thing about it that I wanted other people to feel.
Guest:I, I, I, I hoped other people would feel.
Guest:And as a producer, I think that when you get that feeling like you do as an actor, where you watch a performance and you're envious, you wish you were in that show.
Guest:It's the same thing.
Guest:It's like you see the show and you go, I want to be a part of this.
Guest:How can I be a part of this?
Guest:I was just lucky enough to get in a space where I could.
Marc:And the one you acted in, Seawall, A Life, I watched a bit of a monologue on that guy's radio show.
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:On NPR.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I mean, that show was a long, long journey and one that I would say was I did a show called Constellations written by Nick Payne, who about six years ago, maybe more now.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Time has worked.
Guest:Yeah, it's hard to know.
Guest:Every day is a week.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:Or every week is a day.
Guest:That's something.
Guest:Should we get into that?
Guest:Anyway.
Marc:Only if it's epigenetic in terms of our sense.
Guest:I'm really glad we didn't follow that one.
Guest:I closed that door pretty quickly, thank God.
Guest:But Nick is a beautiful playwright.
Guest:I've done two of his shows.
Guest:And while we were doing this other show,
Guest:I asked him how he came up with the idea of it because Constellations, the show that I did was about a love story taking different universes and there were like 75 scenes over 90 minutes of a love story between two people.
Guest:And it was ultimately about different universes in which a couple splits up, where a couple comes back together after splitting up, where she passes away.
Guest:There's a lot, a lot happened.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he said, I was inspired when my father died about the idea of, you know,
Guest:Quantum theory and the idea that there are other, there are potentially other universes.
Guest:And it gave me comfort to think that my father and I existed.
Guest:We do still exist in another universe.
Guest:And so...
Guest:He said, I wrote this thing that I actually performed and I'll send it to you, which is how I first was inspired to write it.
Guest:And he sent it to me and it was about the passing of his father.
Guest:And it was just one of the most incredible things I've ever read.
Guest:And over five years, after we finished that show, about every six months, I would ask him, can I just do this in a black box somewhere?
Guest:Can I just perform this thing?
Guest:And he said no.
Guest:Over and over again.
Guest:Why?
Marc:Too personal?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think, yeah, I just felt like it's not a character.
Guest:It's like, why would you do it?
Marc:It's just me.
Guest:And then it's me talking about the experience of losing my father.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was cathartic and it was important for me to write and express.
Guest:He actually performed it at the Royal Court upstairs in a small theater.
Guest:I think three nights he performed it.
Guest:He just read it from a piece of paper.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that was it.
Guest:He had expunged it and that was done.
Guest:And I just couldn't stop thinking about it.
Guest:And then like, after a few years, I just came back to him and he finally sort of started thinking about it.
Guest:And then weirdly, this convergence of Tom Sturridge, who's a wonderful actor, he wanted to do this monologue by
Guest:Simon Stevens, and they have these similar themes.
Guest:And Simon Stevens and Nick Payne, both of the authors, are very close friends.
Guest:And so all of a sudden Nick said, oh, maybe, maybe it could work, maybe it could work.
Guest:And then he started to rewrite it.
Guest:And he started to rewrite it about the birth of his daughter,
Guest:who he had just had a year prior and the death of his father and how the two of those things sort of came together in his mind at the same time.
Guest:And we just started working on it and worked on it over a year and worked on it over a year at the public theater, really, or six months when we performed at the public theater and then brought it to Broadway.
Guest:And it was just one of these experiences of like...
Guest:talking to people about life and death.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And it kind of bounces back and forth between the experiences like that monologue that I saw.
Marc:You did it like 10, 12 minutes.
Marc:But that was.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But that wasn't a compilation.
Marc:That was a chunk of the actual piece.
Marc:Right.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and oddly on NPR in a show like that, it feels like someone's doing a piece on NPR.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:It was like a story being told.
Marc:Yeah, it did seem like that.
Marc:Who's this guy talking about this thing?
Marc:Why do you keep bouncing back and forth from birth to death?
Guest:It's like the second part of this American life.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:But in the context of the regalness of theater,
Guest:It gave a kind of sacredness to the real, like the mundane kind of of what it is.
Marc:I love that, man, where you can take a room like that, where you can take one of those giant theaters that was built to house a spectacle and make it an intimate space and all the emotions that come with that.
Marc:That's the best.
Guest:That was like, I spent a year doing that.
Guest:And the stories that came from people are the reason why we just continued to do it.
Guest:Because we would go backstage after the show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And normally where people go like, oh, please, like, yeah, sure, I'll take a picture or whatever.
Guest:You know, yeah, I'll sign your playbill.
Guest:You know, there's that exchange.
Guest:It was like, it was an experience where people would come back and they would just share their stories of...
Guest:relationships with their parents or the loved ones they've lost.
Guest:Grief.
Guest:And grief.
Guest:But grief, but joy.
Guest:I mean, like, all of it together in a space.
Guest:And it just created this community of people.
Guest:I mean, and then we would have these talkbacks after the show.
Guest:You did, really?
Guest:Which normally, you know, two times a week we were...
Guest:we were doing these talkbacks where people would stay.
Guest:And it was like, it was some of the best times as a performer that I've ever had, was being able to, it was a, it really, in thinking about how
Guest:we don't have theater right now.
Guest:It was exactly the reason why I do theater, and I never knew it.
Guest:You never get that kind of interaction, particularly because you're very rarely, I mean, you do, because you do stand up.
Guest:Maybe not as much, but for me, usually you're just pretending that they're not there.
Guest:And in this piece, you were speaking directly to them.
Guest:So the mandate from our director was anything that happens, you roll with.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And also, like, it's striking me as you tell me about it, that that is the necessity.
Marc:That is why theater is necessary.
Marc:Even if you don't have that dialogue or that talk back after the show, the sort of intimacy and the visceral nature of people performing whatever piece it is, it's moving in an essential kind of human connected way.
Marc:And I don't think, you know, I think when people talk about theater or the vitality of it or why it's necessary culturally, that is what it is.
Marc:It's that it's that dialogue.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And I and I think it has become elitist.
Guest:And in Broadway in particular.
Marc:I think there's an issue with the nature of the amusement park part of it and also the nature of subscribers.
Marc:It's an old timey thing.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And the audience is older.
Guest:The audience is not always multicultural.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:And expanding that, expanding that audience is so important because I think the authors and the people who are coming up, the things that they have to say, you have to earn the audience in a way that in a lot of ways in movies you don't.
Guest:And I think the authors coming up, what they have to say is, it's just like right now with it gone, the importance of it, of community and being together is great.
Guest:It could last for me.
Guest:I'm lucky.
Guest:Movies have paid my way.
Guest:But the community of theater is life-changing.
Guest:I've heard people talk about movies that changed their life.
Guest:Theater changed my life.
Guest:And there are shows I've seen that have changed my life.
Marc:And also, I think, isn't it the world of theater, especially in New York, when you really think about it, is...
Marc:is it's it's a whole community in and of itself it's it's it's small but people have been in it for a long time and you know there's actors that you know almost do theater exclusively there's certainly people that work in the theaters at all levels that have been doing that for years that there is a dug-in world of theater that is a lot warmer and and a lot more inviting and a lot more sort of
Marc:grounded in its own community than film.
Marc:I mean, you know, you do films like, you know, you see a gaffer and you're like, oh, yeah, dude, you were on that.
Marc:Hey, man, what's up?
Marc:But but it seems that more so than not, when I talk to actors about who do movies together, even if you spend a year with these people, you leave and that's it.
Marc:You know, totally.
Marc:It's done.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:You know, you're not you're not hanging out.
Guest:And also, I think there's just the nature of the schedule is great.
Guest:With what?
Guest:Theater?
Guest:Theater, like, you know, rehearsals are usually, you know, what, 9, 10 o'clock till 5, you know?
Guest:And then when you're finally in the show... You do the show.
Guest:You know, you do the show.
Guest:You get there at 6, 7.
Guest:You know, on Tuesdays and Saturdays, you're doing matinee and an evening performance, but your whole day is taken up.
Guest:But, like, the rest of the days, you have your day, and then in the evening, you have this thing you're doing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And to have something to look forward to, there's this sort of...
Guest:profound sort of like inconsistency to the schedule of making movies that is like, you know, there's just no, there's no real consistency at all.
Marc:You don't know when you're going to be like, we're going to need you today to do the thing with the hat.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And everybody needs to be there to work, particularly the actors.
Guest:Everybody needs to be there.
Guest:Even if they're only in a scene or two, if you're there for four scenes, you need to be there every night.
Guest:You need to be there every night.
Marc:At the theater.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And in a movie, they'll call you in.
Guest:They're like, you know,
Marc:Well, the whole thing about just me being sort of green at it and trying to appreciate the process.
Marc:I mean, you've been doing it since you were movie acting.
Guest:Green?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You're not green at it.
Marc:Movies?
Marc:Yeah, I am.
Marc:I've only done a few.
Marc:I haven't been acting that long, you know?
Marc:Really.
Marc:I mean...
Marc:I did Glow.
Marc:I did my show, but I haven't been in that many movies.
Guest:You know, Jesse Peretz is a good friend.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Jesse's great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Jesse and his cast iron pans and his New York attitude.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I love Jesse.
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:Cast iron pants.
Marc:He likes his cast iron, doesn't he?
Guest:Hey, who doesn't, man?
Guest:I love him.
Guest:It lasted a long time.
Marc:Sure, man.
Marc:You've got to fetishize cast iron.
Marc:I'm in and out of that.
Marc:I do do it.
Marc:I have a pretty deep relationship with a cast iron right now.
Guest:Well, it's clear.
Guest:You're mocking it, so it's very clear that you care about it.
Marc:I recently re-seasoned a cast iron.
Marc:There he is.
Marc:There he is.
Marc:There he is.
Marc:But but but but talking about the so I mean, you're acting when you're a kid, you're in your parents movie.
Marc:Did you train to act at some point in any real way?
Guest:You mean, did I go to school for acting or class or whatever?
Marc:You know, I mean, did you learn to act at some point outside of just experientially?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Well, I mean, when I was very young, I would go to this place called the Young Actors Space in Studio City, right?
Guest:I started sort of... There was never any formal training, but I did go to classes.
Guest:I took classes, but like those kind of classes you take at school and...
Guest:But I never went to an acting school.
Guest:I have had to learn sort of more technical things about acting and how to survive as an adult actor.
Yeah.
Guest:As I could, you know, from from people in on from people picking up books.
Guest:Yeah, like picking up books, reading, reading different ideas, sort of getting into the different ideas of acting from people who have been.
Marc:to school for acting like who like who have you worked with where you're sort of like picked up you know sort of tricks that because i think the question i'm sort of beating around the bush here is is that there's a tedious element to film and television acting there's a lot of waiting around the takes are quick you know you have to be aware of a lot of things to make the take resonate as best it can
Marc:And on some level, as an actor, it seems like if you don't look at it correctly, it could be fairly unsatisfying.
Guest:Well, I mean, man, is it a great job.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:There's a lot of there's a lot of tedium that I would prefer not to.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, I guess that's a given.
Marc:I'm just saying, like, as an artist, as some guy who I just talked about theater with for a half hour, you know, because I... Sorry about that, by the way.
Marc:No, no, no, I love it.
Marc:But, like, I just recently realized that, you know, when you do a scene, when you've got to shoot, when it's action...
Marc:That has to be the thing.
Marc:You can't sit around bored or you learn how to use that free time.
Marc:But the thing of acting in a movie, it's in these pieces and you've got to show up for those pieces.
Marc:And as an artist, you want them to be satisfying.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I think that's a skill.
Guest:I think it's a skill that is not my strongest skill.
Guest:I much prefer like a long endurance run than I do a sprint.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Guest:And I use that like metaphorically as an actor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Figuratively speaking, I do.
Guest:It's a very difficult skill to come in and kill it in a little space.
Guest:And I've developed techniques to try and do that to give a director what they need.
Guest:And speaking of being on film, it's like the digital part of it has been helpful because you can kind of do a series.
Guest:Let's just keep rolling and I'm going to do that same scene again.
Guest:I'm getting the energy up.
Guest:Can I just...
Guest:Start from the beginning.
Guest:I'm in it now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So but yeah, I mean, those skills, I've watched so many actors and what they do over the years.
Guest:I've mimicked them.
Guest:I've mimicked their behavior before takes.
Guest:Some of those things have worked for me.
Guest:Some of them haven't.
Guest:Some of them gotten me in trouble.
Guest:Some of them haven't.
Guest:Like you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like you can watch somebody rile themselves up.
Guest:and they can you know they can like get really like frustrated or or or get like they're in the moment who do you have in mind right now i remember beautiful work i mean there's so many actors so many actors do some crazy shit man like you know to get themselves into a scene yeah i i do remember watching like being kind of in awe of watching heath ledger like when we were you know and and how he would he would get himself into a scene and
Guest:I, you know, I worked at a young age with Dustin Hoffman and Susan Sarandon and Holly Hunter and all of those out of all the actors you could name.
Marc:I could see them really putting a lot of whatever it is into getting ready to do it.
Guest:Well, I remember Dustin, which movie I remember, uh, it's called Moonlight Mile.
Guest:I remember Susan telling me, I remember Susan telling me before you have an emotional scene, you should drink a lot of water because tears really do dehydrate you, you know?
Guest:And these are the things you pick up where like, I'll never forget, you know, like I will, I'll drink so much water before an emotional scene and people be like, what's wrong with him?
Guest:Like, I won't cry the whole scene.
Guest:I'll just drink water.
Guest:You know, it's just like something that Susan Sarandon told me.
Marc:In case you cried, you wanted to be filled up.
Marc:You wanted to... Yes.
Guest:Yeah, you need a full tank.
Guest:Yeah, you need a full tank.
Guest:But I think that, like, I would watch Dustin get physically... Like, he would get his energy up.
Guest:Like, he would actually get his blood flowing, which is something that I didn't even understand at the time.
Guest:You know, I didn't even get...
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:This is, this is your instrument, which is a, which is a very typical thing you would learn in acting class, which I did do, you know, you do warmup exercise and things like that.
Guest:But, um, that was like, I remember him doing sort of
Guest:pushups and running in place and getting ready before sometimes just a regular scene where you walk through, you know, having that stuff going through being alive flowing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, those are two good lessons.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Work, you know, get yourself worked up a little bit and, uh, drink a lot of hydrated.
Guest:I mean, is there anything else?
Marc:No present to be present.
Guest:I don't know what that means.
Guest:That's, I think, I think you, it's, it's, it's,
Guest:I, for a long time, I really love the idea when you talk about being present, I love the idea of actually being present to the things that are going on, you know, like you can't.
Guest:And that was what was cool about the theater piece that we did in the Seawall Life thing was things happened and
Guest:You have these classic stories of all these wonderful, incredible legends of the theater telling like some woman opening her, you know, butterscotch candy that like they're not going to start until she finishes that rap, you know, like, you know, Patti LuPone, you know, like going in and like...
Guest:taking the pack of gum out of the woman's hands and saying, you're destroying the sacred space.
Guest:But what I think is cool is responding to the present of what's happening.
Guest:The audience is with you.
Guest:Even if you're in 17th century France or some shit on stage,
Guest:Stuff's happening out there in the audience, and it could be inspiring.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:When you're on a stage, you feel, I mean, if you're at all attentive, which I am hyper attentive, you feel almost emotionally connected to that crowd.
Marc:I can feel a crowd easily.
Marc:I mean, I know when I look outside, like before I do a show at a theater, I'll go on to the theater before the crowd comes in just to sort of assess the space.
Marc:But when they come in and I'm looking from the backstage, I'm like, I know exactly where the pockets are.
Marc:I know where there might be resistance.
Marc:I know where there's a problem, you know.
Yeah.
Guest:Sometimes I'm... Do you project ever?
Guest:Oh, yeah, all the time.
Marc:Do you find yourself being like... I project all the time.
Marc:That's part of my genius, is that even when I come in to interview someone like you, I'm like, I'll have decided who you are, and then we just sort of battle back from that.
Oh, of course.
Guest:Don't think I didn't know that.
Guest:I was very present at the top of this interview.
Guest:I understand.
Guest:I understand.
Marc:I talked to your sister.
Marc:Did you listen to me talk to your sister?
Marc:I didn't.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:She's pretty cool.
Guest:She's very cool.
Marc:And sort of like earnest and kind of like a little intimidating with the earnest.
Yeah.
Guest:Good.
Guest:I'm glad she intimidated you.
Guest:Oh, no.
Marc:How does she not intimidate everybody?
Guest:Well, she happens to be pretty brilliant.
Guest:No, she's great.
Guest:Yeah, but yes, she is my sister, and she has a really lovely voice.
Guest:Oh, yeah, great voice.
Guest:It's very soothing.
Marc:And really smart, and it was great.
Marc:It was a great talk.
Marc:But this is going good, too.
Marc:Don't be intimidated.
Guest:That's okay.
Guest:It's okay.
Guest:You can have a better talk with her.
Marc:I'm cool with you.
Marc:No, I don't remember laughing a lot, and we've had some good laughs.
Marc:I remember the intimidation sort of stifled the laughter part.
Guest:I just had to deal because I have a lot less interesting things to say.
Guest:I don't know if that's true.
Guest:So I just had to use humor as a crutch.
Guest:I like it.
Guest:That's basically it.
Marc:So when you talk about Heath preparing, that character was so repressed, compressed, and sort of smoldering in a sort of strange, sensitive way.
Marc:What do you remember him doing for Brokeback?
Guest:I remember really beautiful things about him telling me early on that, you know, the character was very sensitive to light, you know, and sound, that they were just sensitive to those things.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And that defined, yeah, like the shape of his character from very early on.
Marc:He decided that or Ang Lee decided that?
Guest:He decided that.
Guest:He decided that on his own.
Guest:And so, you know, I think this idea of this, I really reveled in that always, this idea of this sort of.
Guest:the sort of quote-unquote kind of stronger version of the two of them, you know, the sort of typical male version of the sort of opposing kind of ideas that Aang was going for in that movie.
Guest:I really have observed so many wonderful actors.
Guest:That to me is what, like, outside of the movies I've done or the things I've been in outside of any of that, it's the ability to be around those people
Guest:That has been so incredible as I look back on the things that I've done so far.
Guest:I just can't believe the presence I've been in.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And when you're in it, I mean, I don't know about you, but there are moments where you're in a scene with somebody or if you're lucky enough just to be doing off camera lines with somebody you respect, you like to see work where you can just really take it in.
Marc:it's fucking astounding because it's such a heightened moment when they go action.
Marc:And the way that the silence, all of a sudden this thing happens.
Marc:And I don't know if anybody can really know it.
Marc:And in theater, people witness it with you.
Marc:But when you're doing movies or TV, and sometimes where I'd be working with Betty Gilpin or somebody, I would just be looking at her going like, oh my God, she's really doing it.
Marc:You know, like...
Guest:That's my favorite thing.
Guest:My God, he's acting.
Guest:He's really doing it.
Guest:He's saving the world.
Marc:But, you know, it's exciting to see it, you know, as a fan or as somebody who wants to be moved.
Marc:Like I would find myself in scenes that weren't even sad.
Marc:Again, it's that human thing, the vulnerability thing.
Marc:We're like, I'm getting choked up and it's not even called for.
Marc:So I'm like, I'm fighting back tears and I'm supposed to be doing something funny, but I'm so engaged in the humanness of the situation that you get overwhelmed.
Guest:I do think that the best filmmakers are the ones...
Guest:There are all different kinds who are the best, I think, who do incredible work.
Guest:And sometimes you just don't know.
Guest:It's such a weird thing as an actor, too, in a film.
Guest:The thing I've learned from stage so much is that, like I said, I asked if you projected on the audience because so often you think things suck and people come off and be like, that was amazing.
Guest:You have no idea ever.
Guest:So I've given up over the years on even thinking anything works.
Guest:I just do what I can do and hope for the best.
Guest:I literally close my eyes and throw the dart and go like, you know, I've done this for a couple of years.
Guest:I pretty much know where the bullseye is.
Guest:If I get it anywhere in and around that, I'll be happy.
Marc:Yeah, and also you don't want to deny people their experience, you know, just because you didn't feel –
Marc:you know, that it was your night or your scene or your movie.
Marc:If somebody loves it, you got to let them have that.
Marc:You know, you don't want to be that guy that's sort of like, you were great.
Marc:And they're like, no, no, sort of what night you go, you know?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, by the way, come on, you have, you have to have done that.
Marc:That's like, that's so the like, that's such a, that's a, that's a classic old standup.
Guest:Oh, Seattle.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Seattle.
Marc:I don't, you know, there's, you ever heard that joke?
Marc:There's a, there's several angles.
Marc:I don't know how people tell the joke about the comic.
Marc:like you know he's you know he's in a town where he's doing a week at the comedy club and uh you know he's at the mall uh you know like on the saturday after the friday show just walking around and some girl walks up to him and says man you were great last night you just you were so hot and funny and i'd really like to hang out with you tonight if you have time and he goes what show first or second show
Guest:i mean right that's about sums it up that that about sums it up the actor's life i mean in truth in truth it's like if only they knew what a narcissist they were telling was you know is it narcissism or is it just like horrendous insecurity i mean i mean on some level like you know it it is selfish but i mean you
Marc:You know, you do have certain feelings about, you know, when you felt like you connected and there is, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But those things are just not like they just don't matter.
Guest:You're right.
Guest:It just doesn't matter.
Guest:Like the number of times I've come off of the preview period in theaters that I love the most.
Guest:And it's like the number of times I came out of a preview going like we knocked that out.
Guest:Like that was great.
Guest:And the director comes back and goes like it was way too slow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you're like, what?
Guest:But I was indulging every possible feeling.
Guest:Isn't that what it's all about?
Guest:And they're like, audience was so bored.
Guest:Just please, you're not telling the story.
Guest:And then you do it the next night.
Guest:You're like, fine, I'll pace it up.
Guest:And it's like such a sort of like technically...
Guest:well done right in time thing and the director comes back and is weeping and you go like i hate my job this is what is this like there's nothing in it for me you know what you hate your job you succeeded at pretending that is the job yeah
Guest:That's the thing.
Guest:It's like, won't you just let me indulge?
Guest:I think that there is something that's so humbling and wonderful about that because in the end, story is king.
Guest:Story is king.
Guest:And that's the thing that I've learned.
Guest:as best as I can is you service that story, you will bring people joy, you will bring people discovery.
Guest:And if you can, when you have an opportunity, pick the right authors, because that's really the job.
Guest:It's like you pick the right author, you pick the right person who's in charge.
Guest:yeah but i mean yeah then then then you're just sort of you're in service of that thing yeah that's true and that's it i mean but it is sort of that and you better love the music you're singing yeah you know because and and if you don't um
Marc:then you know you better be able you know you better be supporting a life that you love you know do you feel like you shifted to like that there was like once you started to really focus or once you did uh uh sunday in the park there was that the thing that opened you up had you kind of exhausted yourself with movies at that point i don't think i'll ever be exhausted by movies but i no i think i just hit a point
Guest:where I asked myself what I really loved and I've always loved and had, I think, a skill enough to do musical theater live, right?
Guest:And I think that form of storytelling has always been my love, right?
Guest:Acting through music, I think, is a strength.
Guest:That does bring me joy, but I also think I'm...
Guest:something about being able to communicate through that, that way.
Guest:I've always felt, but I always felt people told me, Oh, you have all these amazing opportunities.
Guest:Like you can be in film and you know, like, why would you, why would you want to do that?
Guest:You have this blossoming career in movies, like go for it.
Guest:This is the thing.
Guest:And I go, yes, you're right.
Guest:And then, and I felt like I should be embarrassed of that or something.
Guest:Like, oh, you know, and so many people tell me like, oh, I hate musical theater, you know?
Guest:And so you go like, oh, yeah, yeah, you're mad.
Guest:I mean, totally.
Marc:So you're almost like a closeted musical theater appreciator.
Yeah.
Guest:are you kidding me like appreciator like desperately in love with let's just be i'm gonna be like so i so i think that at a certain point in my life maybe just getting older i was like okay fuck what everybody else says i don't give a shit like this brings me joy i'm gonna i'm gonna die one day like what am i doing i'm gonna do this and so i just said and i also met this incredible person
Guest:Janine Tesori, who happened to write Fun Home as the composer, as an incredible musical theater composer and composer.
Guest:And she was like, they were doing Little Shop of Horrors with Ellen Green, the original Audrey, at City Center in New York City.
Guest:And she was like, will you play Seymour in that?
Guest:And I was like, absolutely not.
Guest:you know like i was and she was like she just spent so much time convincing me that i could do it that i finally was like fuck it i'm gonna do this yeah and and it was the best experience i've ever had like i was so mind-blowing to be on a stage with ellen green who originated a part that like no one else can play you know she just she just she's the og of ogs and she you know
Guest:being up there with this incredible cast performing that was when I was like you know what I want to do more of this you know let's let's try it and Janine has been my you know my my teacher and my my guide and and guru and friend through so much she she brought Sunday in the Park with George to me and and then you know we're doing the movie fun home and so
Marc:Well, that's good.
Marc:And you can do the other stuff, too.
Marc:Now you've just sort of broadened your heart and possibilities of employment.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Both.
Guest:I like that.
Guest:Yeah, you're right.
Guest:It's basically about employment.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:It just opens up a whole new path that you happen to love.
Marc:It doesn't diminish anything, but I imagine it fills in a gap that wasn't there.
Marc:It fills in a compartment in your soul that wasn't there.
Marc:I mean, obviously, you're great at movies and you've done great work, but having the courage to...
Marc:to sort of follow through with the musical thing, despite the judgment that you thought you would come at you just because you love it so much.
Marc:And then having the opportunity, it must make you feel like a whole person as an artist.
Guest:Is that, is that how you felt about getting into movies?
Guest:And like when you did glow, I remember watching him being like, he's fucking great.
Guest:Oh, that's nice.
Guest:Thanks.
Guest:And, and, and so distinctive.
Guest:Like when you're in that, the first time you, you show up in that show, it's like,
Guest:It's like, boom.
Guest:By the way, that was like... If you wrote that out, what I just said, I would sound like a fool.
Guest:I'd probably sound like a fool without writing it out.
Guest:But you were just like, boom, you were there.
Guest:And do you feel that way about...
Guest:Do you feel like you love it?
Marc:Well, this last one was the first time that I chose to do something that was scary to me, because it's not like I'm getting a lot of roles, but usually if they want me to be in something, it's to be the cranky, neurotic, amped up, sort of like Sam, Sylvia and Glow or whatever.
Marc:But this one, the guy really liked the work I did on my show.
Marc:He liked the way that I was emotional in my face.
Marc:And this guy that he wanted me to play was this relatively earnest, somewhat kind of beaten down a bit Texan guy who had been sort of humbled by life, but definitely not neurotic or necessarily self-aware or angry.
Marc:And I had to be Texan.
Marc:And I told the guy, I said, like, I don't know.
Marc:You know, I don't know about the accent.
Marc:He's like, we'll work around that.
Marc:But then, like, in my mind, I'm like, but just challenge yourself.
Marc:You wanted to try to do it.
Marc:Do it.
Marc:You know, meet with the dialogue coach, the dialect coach.
Marc:Figure this shit out.
Marc:And just commit.
Marc:And so I did.
Marc:And I was very proud that I did.
Marc:And the guy was happy.
Marc:I mean, that ultimately...
Marc:Like you said, you're servicing this thing, and the director's doing this thing, and I needed to show up for work because he only had 19 days.
Marc:And I'm working with Heavis, man.
Marc:You know Andrea Riceboro?
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Marc:She's the other person.
Marc:Like, it's me and her, mostly.
Guest:But that also is helpful when you have someone that, oh, you have actors like that.
Marc:There's also your, like... Yeah, I guess, yeah, right, right, right, right, right.
Marc:They can carry me.
Yeah.
Guest:But they elicit a real response or they elicit something that is – it's that terrible cliché tennis metaphor.
Guest:But it's true.
Marc:My point being that this was the first time that I felt like I showed up with a craft in place, with choices and taking a risk for me and really engaging in the work of acting.
Marc:It was really the first time that I had the freedom of mind and the lack of fear.
Marc:to feel that.
Guest:So, yeah, you know, did you feel like you like pushed through your, you know, the accent thing?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, I just figured out, you know, like, I guess like any actor does, you know, I figured out, well, how do I get into this?
Marc:How do I get into this guy?
Marc:You know, what, you know, what can I rely on as a tool to show up for these scenes and to show up emotionally?
Marc:How do I, you know, you know, the dialect coach had written out some words, you know, a little primer of how to say things.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So in my trailer, I just run through those and plant the thing and then let it go.
Marc:I'm sure the accent's not perfect, but look, man, I did a little research and I watched some big fucking actors do accents and no one holds it perfectly.
Guest:No.
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, and that's the thing is I think it's all in a certain way a kind of performance, like even the sort of stringing through of roles, you know, like a career is that as well.
Guest:And there are people who spend so much time curating that, you know, just like obsessively picking.
Guest:And that's become the sort of idea of what a great actor is, of like curating it to the point of like
Guest:And I just think, you know, I hope all those people are having fun, you know, because.
Marc:You anal weirdos.
Guest:Well, also because it's a great job.
Guest:Like, I mean, it's a great job in that it's a great job to have fun and to.
Marc:to to to explore things inside yourself right those fears right and and when you connect in a scene you know what i mean that was the thing about working with with andrea is like she's one of these english kind of like you know you know here i am like you know doing everything yeah i i'm wide open you know and i feel myself getting choked up and she's like oh that was good
Marc:Was that all right?
Marc:And I'm like, did you feel that?
Marc:Were you just fucking with me?
Marc:Didn't you feel that?
Marc:You had to have felt that, right?
Marc:I didn't say that to her, but that's what you walk away.
Marc:It's like, well, I felt it.
Marc:I don't give a shit.
Marc:I was there.
Marc:If she was pretending, fine.
Guest:American versus the British.
Guest:Kind of.
Guest:The age-old, the age-old.
Guest:We're just this weird mess, and then they're just so put together and kill it every time.
Guest:We're just sloppy.
Marc:It was wild to watch her work, because she was playing this broken-down Texan woman.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, it was Andre, who I've known a bit from...
Marc:We just kind of became friends because he did my podcast like he's he's intense.
Marc:But but yeah, I mean, I I dug it and it made me want to do more.
Marc:It made me it's like going through that first obstacle of taking real risks.
Marc:You know, initially with with my show, Marin, it was basically some version of me and Sam Sylvia was kind of me with no self-awareness.
Marc:And then, you know, to continue to try to get better at it, I'd like to have the opportunity.
Marc:So that made it much more engaging to me, you know.
Guest:You seem to me, it's funny, because I don't, I didn't know you until now.
Guest:But like...
Guest:you seem to me to actually be so different from the characters that I've seen you play.
Guest:Like, you're actually a very, like a very, well, it's not your characters aren't kind-hearted.
Guest:Because I think, like, but they're, like, I mean, I'm sure you can be a group.
Guest:Don't get me wrong.
Guest:I'm sure you can be.
Guest:But you don't, I mean, Brendan, you don't have to come in right now.
Guest:But I do...
Guest:I'm full grump.
Marc:I'm a recovering grump.
Guest:He's like, I'm not allergic to peanuts, but I'm fucking allergic to Mark.
Guest:No, but like there is something to like what's really wonderful is like your essence coming out.
Guest:That's new.
Guest:There are things that you can explore.
Guest:That's new.
Guest:That you didn't know.
Guest:And then also people's assumptions like –
Guest:I mean, it's just so funny over a long period of time playing roles, how people perceive you, which is just not you, which is also that struggle.
Guest:It's like you kind of go, I'm not the character that I played in Nightcrawler, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I have – like I have – there are aspects that I understand or that I learned about myself that are so interesting to me, but I'm not that guy, right?
Guest:And when – and I think for a long time people are like –
Guest:Oh, he's really good at that.
Guest:And then when I first started, it was just like, oh, he's a doormat.
Guest:He's an emotional doormat.
Guest:I quote somebody when I say that about me early on.
Guest:And then you do other things and they just think you're the absolute opposite.
Guest:I mean, my sister spoke about times where people would say,
Guest:Before this movie, Secretary, she did, where they were like, oh, she's not sexy enough or something.
Guest:And then after that movie, it was like, she's too sexual.
Marc:And it's so funny that the people that say these things, they do nothing.
Guest:But it's also understanding that when you watch something, we don't know people.
Guest:You watch a new act you know nothing about.
Guest:You don't know who they are.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:then you know other people's stories over time.
Guest:You're watching stories, stories within stories.
Guest:Yeah, that's true.
Marc:But did you know, like, I mean, I just spoke of my small experience with that, but did you seek things that would, you know, be different enough for people to judge you differently every choice you made around jobs, around roles?
Guest:I think...
Guest:No.
Guest:I think I would... I kind of would say yes, maybe.
Guest:But also... You're challenging certain things, yes.
Guest:And then you get like, oh, I've done this thing.
Guest:And then something comes, you go, oh, that'd be kind of fun to do.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:People have asked me over the years things like, what's the character you've always wanted to play?
Guest:Or is there a person in history you've always... And I'm like...
Guest:no what and I listen to actors great all the great ones let me just say this all the great ones are like Winston Churchill you know or like you know whatever it is it's like yeah I don't want the pressure of playing anybody
Guest:But there are people who, or roles they've always wanted to play.
Guest:I'm not that guy.
Guest:I'm like, I'm just, you send it to me, I read it, I like it, I'll try and fit in it, you know?
Guest:Does the suit fit, you know?
Guest:I don't know how you feel in your life and in the work that you've done.
Guest:I want to do things that doesn't necessarily have to be acting.
Guest:And more and more, it actually isn't acting.
Marc:What is it?
Marc:Producing?
Guest:Uh...
Guest:restaurant work creating more thing restaurant work yeah no I yeah I mean I mean I do love to cook but I I um I think we go through different stages in our lives and I think in those stages in our lives we all question things that we've done in our work in our job and and in our in our life and I think I'm sort of at a place where I've had incredible opportunities um a ton of luck and um
Guest:And I just, I, I think I do want to explore other avenues.
Guest:That's part of what getting into producing has been for me.
Guest:That's sort of the step in, you know, and, and then I think more and more trying to create myself, you know, I, I, I, I love acting.
Guest:Don't get me wrong.
Guest:And I, I,
Guest:But I have always, ever since I began, loved watching the other actor across from me more than playing the character that I'm playing.
Guest:And as much as I've loved the characters that I've played, the thing that has fascinated me and that I've been in awe of are the other people across from me, which I'm starting to kind of take into account and starting to understand that
Guest:Maybe it's something else that I want to do more.
Guest:Maybe it's directing.
Guest:Maybe it's writing something for someone.
Guest:Maybe it's that.
Guest:But that to me is where I find myself moving.
Marc:Have you done some of that?
Marc:Have you done some writing of stage pieces?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah, not stage pieces.
Guest:I write and more screenplays.
Guest:I love the...
Guest:I love puzzles, and I find great joy in the insular, isolated space that is writing.
Guest:It really is yours, and having been an actor for so many years, you're coming in at the very end, and you're interpreting somebody else's stuff, and there's just something so personal and private about being alone
Guest:And it can just suck and no one's watching that I just love.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:So, I mean, it must be thrilling to be nominated for a Tony for producing.
Marc:I mean, that's got to be encouraging.
Guest:It's thrilling being nominated for a Tony for producing and for acting.
Guest:You know, that's like a...
Guest:that's it's just pretty fucking cool like of all of the things uh that's cool and i i'm not really a big sort of awards person right i but i that when i when i heard about that i was about the acting tony i was thrilled yeah yeah the acting tony is just a thing sure man it's great and so i i was i was it's a community that i love so much and for so many years have like
Guest:wanted to be a part of, and not to say that being nominated for something makes you feel like you are, but I think that I finally, over the past few years, have really felt like it's a community that I love and will give to, and that gives back, and I know I will have for the rest of my life, and I will give back to for the rest of my life.
Guest:And the first show I ever saw, I wanted to be up there and a part of it, and just to... I don't know, when we talked about the Harvard story, I was thinking,
Guest:You know, every time before I walk out on stage, what I think about, if it's in a professional sense, I think about like,
Guest:When I was in high school or something and I walked out, the feeling is literally no different.
Guest:It's just like all those people paid way too much money to come see it.
Guest:So like you have such a deep obligation.
Guest:But that difference between play as a kid and play when you're doing it professionally, there is no difference.
Marc:It's just like everything converges on this point and it gets real.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that to me like –
Guest:I will never get old.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It just, it will never get old.
Guest:And so, yeah, I mean, I like also, I also, also the Harvard moment made me think like, it's also great to just be a producer of a show and be sitting there in the audience opening night and be like, hey, I get to read the reviews and like, I didn't have to go sweat and perform up there.
Guest:It's pretty good.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So now you got both of those things going.
Marc:Well, and also, well, good luck with the movie.
Marc:I hope you win.
Marc:It was good talking to you.
Guest:nice meeting you same i'm a fan of yours i i i really think you're a wonderful actor thanks man um you're you're not as good as a of a podcast or a radio host but i think you're a good actor and well good and just keep trying you know what i mean just just keep trying you know i will in all things no but i i really thank you for having me on your show it's great man it was great talking to you i'll see you around hopefully
Guest:Yes, I hope so.
Marc:Okay, buddy.
Guest:In person, for fuck's sake.
Marc:That'd be great.
Marc:All right.
Marc:All right, man.
Guest:Bye.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:Go watch some Jake stuff.
Marc:We'll see if he wins a Tony.
Marc:As I said before, he's up for three of them.
Marc:Best actor in a play and a couple production Tonys as well.
Marc:Sea Wall, A Life is the play he's up for for producer and best actor and also slave play, which I'm sorry I missed.
Marc:Why didn't I learn how to use GarageBand during lockdown other than just talking into it?
Marc:So many fucking things.
Marc:Why?
Marc:Why didn't I get that rug fixed?
Marc:Did you realize you can break a rug?
Marc:You can.
guitar solo
so so
Guest:Boomer lives.
Guest:And Monkey LaFonda.
Guest:Cat angels everywhere in the rain.
Guest:In the fucking rain.