Episode 1180 - John Densmore

Episode 1180 • Released December 3, 2020 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast welcome to it how you holding up forecast for today clouds of virus raining down on most of the united states jesus fuck

00:00:30Marc:My God, man.

00:00:33Marc:What a nation of dumb shits.

00:00:35Marc:Tremendous.

00:00:37Marc:Let it rip.

00:00:38Marc:Let it burn.

00:00:40Marc:It's literally in your soaking in it.

00:00:44Marc:What a nation of dumb shits.

00:00:49Marc:And look, you know, plenty of smart people are dumb shits.

00:00:52Marc:I don't know what it is.

00:00:53Marc:Things get slack.

00:00:54Marc:Things are inconvenienced.

00:00:56Marc:Plague fatigue is a real thing.

00:00:59Marc:We just want it to be done.

00:01:01Marc:People get sloppy and then people get sick and people die.

00:01:05Marc:And, you know, I'm not and I'm guilty of it.

00:01:06Marc:I'm not coming from some higher plane here.

00:01:11Marc:Today on the show, I talked to John Densmore.

00:01:13Marc:He was a door.

00:01:15Marc:He was the drummer for the Doors.

00:01:17Marc:He's a member of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, written a couple books about his time in the Doors.

00:01:21Marc:He's got a new book out called The Seekers, which is about the artists who inspired him.

00:01:27Marc:He's also taken a stand against commercialism and has prevented the doors music from being used to sell products.

00:01:33Marc:We'll talk about that a bit.

00:01:36Marc:I know the remaining door is not thrilled about that, but but noted, you know, you don't hear that much anymore.

00:01:45Marc:Yeah, people have integrated, adapted, assimilated into commercialism and somehow justifying it.

00:01:52Marc:Is there any selling out anymore if you do it in a cool way?

00:01:56Marc:I mean, that's been the way it's at for a while.

00:01:59Marc:Now we're in this new shift.

00:02:00Marc:It's like it's not so much about doing whatever it takes to sell.

00:02:04Marc:To make a buck or sell a product as long as you keep your shit together and look cool doing it.

00:02:09Marc:Now it's literally about, you know, managing your brand, managing your own product, getting out there.

00:02:14Marc:Yeah, right.

00:02:16Marc:Selling you and then having the people come to you so you can sell their shit.

00:02:20Marc:Hey, man, will you sip on this while you talk to your fans?

00:02:23Marc:Hey, man, will you wear this while you talk to your fans?

00:02:27Marc:Hey, man, could you sing this tune while you talk to your fans?

00:02:30Marc:Look at this.

00:02:30Marc:Could you rub this on your face?

00:02:32Marc:While people are enjoying you talking.

00:02:35Marc:Could you eat four of these.

00:02:37Marc:At the same time you rub this shit on your face.

00:02:40Marc:While people are talking.

00:02:41Marc:Make it a show.

00:02:41Marc:Make it a show called.

00:02:43Marc:I'm eating four things and rubbing shit on my face for a half hour.

00:02:46Marc:Brought to you by the shit on the face people.

00:02:49Marc:Yeah man.

00:02:51Marc:There's no selling out anymore.

00:02:54Marc:What is going on?

00:02:55Marc:The movie that I'm in, Stardust, the David Bowie film I did with Johnny Flynn, is getting, you know, I would say mixed reviews.

00:03:02Marc:But my mother hasn't watched it, apparently because she set out to watch it the other night.

00:03:09Marc:And she goes, I don't think I watched the right one.

00:03:11Marc:I don't think I was.

00:03:13Marc:What do you mean?

00:03:14Marc:Was I in it?

00:03:14Marc:She's like, I didn't see you.

00:03:15Marc:What was it at the beginning when they were a bunch of British, you know, 70s people dressed like that?

00:03:21Marc:And she's like, no, it seemed to be like another time, like a primitive time, like 100 years ago or something like what are you talking about?

00:03:30Marc:I don't know.

00:03:30Marc:I watched for like 10 or 15 minutes and I didn't see you in it.

00:03:34Marc:What are you watching?

00:03:35Marc:Stardust.

00:03:38Marc:Is there another Stardust?

00:03:39Marc:I guess there is.

00:03:40Marc:There is another Stardust, apparently.

00:03:42Marc:And my mother watched a nice portion of it before she realized it wasn't about David.

00:03:47Marc:But it's some sort of weird fantasy movie from like 10, 15 years ago.

00:03:53Marc:I don't even know what it's about.

00:03:54Marc:But it took her 10, 15 minutes before she's like, this doesn't seem right.

00:03:59Marc:And she's got all her marbles, my mother.

00:04:02Marc:But she waited it out.

00:04:03Marc:Maybe this was some artful approach to the David Bowie story that starts off 100 years ago.

00:04:10Marc:They were going way back.

00:04:14Marc:Oh, God.

00:04:16Marc:I think I got her on the right track.

00:04:19Marc:I don't understand.

00:04:20Marc:I watched the movie.

00:04:22Marc:You're not in it.

00:04:22Marc:It was like the old days.

00:04:26Marc:I don't know.

00:04:28Marc:Am I watching the wrong movie?

00:04:31Marc:Yes.

00:04:32Marc:Yes.

00:04:34Marc:I wish my dad a happy birthday.

00:04:36Marc:I left him a message.

00:04:37Marc:I didn't talk to him.

00:04:37Marc:He's 82.

00:04:38Marc:I think he's okay.

00:04:41Marc:My biggest problem right now, aside from fearing COVID, I've decided, as I will, given that my primary relationship at this point in time is a black cat named Buster Kitten.

00:04:57Marc:Fucking Buster.

00:04:59Marc:So I've done this with all my cats at different points.

00:05:02Marc:Like he's acting weird.

00:05:03Marc:He's acting tweaky.

00:05:04Marc:I thought it was the full moon.

00:05:05Marc:Maybe there's a mouse in the house.

00:05:06Marc:Maybe there's a rat in the basement.

00:05:08Marc:Who the fuck knows with a cat?

00:05:10Marc:But I know he's acting weird.

00:05:11Marc:So I start focusing in, hyper-focusing on him.

00:05:14Marc:Buster, what's up?

00:05:15Marc:Are you okay, Buster?

00:05:16Marc:What are you doing there?

00:05:17Marc:Why are you sitting there?

00:05:18Marc:Where are you going, Buster?

00:05:19Marc:What's going on?

00:05:20Marc:That's not your regular place.

00:05:21Marc:Is that your new place?

00:05:22Marc:Do you not feel well?

00:05:23Marc:Why are you sitting like that?

00:05:24Marc:What's happening, Buster?

00:05:27Marc:And you know, the cat's going to feel that.

00:05:29Marc:I mean, me just saying that to you guys made me a little stressed.

00:05:33Marc:And I don't know how I forget.

00:05:35Marc:I've been dealing with cats for almost 20 years of my own.

00:05:39Marc:I've been through a few.

00:05:41Marc:I've taken a lot of them.

00:05:43Marc:Fuck it, man.

00:05:45Marc:It's like you don't know with cats.

00:05:47Marc:It's like one day that's their place.

00:05:49Marc:Look, that's your place?

00:05:51Marc:I like that.

00:05:53Marc:You're going to sit up there on the couch?

00:05:54Marc:That's your place, Buster.

00:05:55Marc:That's your place.

00:05:56Marc:How come you're not in that place anymore?

00:05:57Marc:Is this your new place?

00:05:58Marc:Are you going to be on this side of the couch now or the other chair?

00:06:01Marc:Oh, you're going to ruin that piece of furniture?

00:06:04Marc:And then you just stop after a few months and move on to another piece of furniture?

00:06:08Marc:Oh, you're going to stay upstairs now?

00:06:10Marc:You're going to sleep on the table?

00:06:12Marc:What's going on?

00:06:12Marc:Is this your new toy?

00:06:13Marc:Is this where you're going to stay?

00:06:15Marc:They switch it up.

00:06:16Marc:Oh, you're shitting on this rug now?

00:06:17Marc:Why is that?

00:06:18Marc:Why did that happen for a month?

00:06:20Marc:You don't fucking know.

00:06:21Marc:You don't know what's going on with them or how they make decisions.

00:06:25Marc:But they change.

00:06:25Marc:They do weird shit.

00:06:26Marc:They're fucking cats.

00:06:28Marc:I don't know why I forget that.

00:06:32Marc:But I'm like, I got to take him to the vet.

00:06:33Marc:I think he's breathing funny.

00:06:34Marc:There's something wrong with him.

00:06:35Marc:I got to take him in.

00:06:36Marc:I haven't been to the vet since I left with an empty crate.

00:06:40Marc:With Monkey.

00:06:42Marc:Since I sent Monkey off.

00:06:45Marc:So I took Buster in to see Modesto over at Gateway.

00:06:52Marc:I've been going to Gateway Animal Hospital.

00:06:55Marc:In Atwater here in L.A.

00:06:58Marc:for like 20 years, 18 at least.

00:07:02Marc:Used to take Boomer there, La Fonda Monkey for their entire lives.

00:07:07Marc:I've taken ferals there that I trapped to get fixed.

00:07:10Marc:I've taken a stray there to be put down.

00:07:14Marc:But Doc Modesto is the best.

00:07:16Marc:So I took Buster in because you guys, I don't know if you know, you know, Buster almost died when he was like two.

00:07:22Marc:He ate something stupid.

00:07:23Marc:I'm not even sure what, but he went into full renal failure.

00:07:26Marc:He went fucking down.

00:07:28Marc:I had to like get him to an emergency vet.

00:07:31Marc:He was under observation for days, fluids, ultrasounds.

00:07:34Marc:He survived it.

00:07:35Marc:and got perfect kidney function at the end of it but i haven't had him checked out in two years so i there's a little bit of denial that's how you know why people are selfish and stupid we all do the denial trip no one wants fucking bad news and no one wants to be just inconvenienced i understand but it doesn't mean you're avoiding fucking reality that's what it means

00:08:01Marc:So the initial tests are okay.

00:08:03Marc:The test he took yesterday, I brought him in.

00:08:07Marc:His teeth are dirty.

00:08:08Marc:He's a little chubby.

00:08:10Marc:But the ultrasound does reveal he's probably working with one big kidney.

00:08:14Marc:And the smaller one might not be working at all.

00:08:17Marc:Might have a bum kidney in there and one big good one.

00:08:22Marc:But Doc Modesto's like, hey, man, just like people, these cats can live for a long time at one kidney.

00:08:27Marc:He's been on the kidney food for a long time.

00:08:30Marc:Keep him on that.

00:08:31Marc:I'm even ready.

00:08:31Marc:I'm ready to snap into sub-Q fluids if I have to.

00:08:35Marc:I could give him sub-Q fluids just for fun.

00:08:38Marc:I got the shit over here.

00:08:40Marc:I've run a cat hospice before.

00:08:43Marc:Buster Kitten.

00:08:45Marc:He's acting weird, though, man.

00:08:48Marc:Buster is acting tweaked.

00:08:49Marc:He might be just getting older.

00:08:51Marc:I don't know.

00:08:53Marc:He's acting like there's something out there.

00:08:55Marc:He's acting like there's another animal either in the house or near the house.

00:09:00Marc:Something's going on.

00:09:01Marc:A lot of smelling going on.

00:09:04Marc:A lot of like, I know there's something right around here.

00:09:07Marc:It's right around here.

00:09:08Marc:Something's going on, man.

00:09:10Marc:And I'm going to sweep upstairs now.

00:09:12Marc:But aren't you a downstairs cat?

00:09:13Marc:Nope.

00:09:15Marc:This is where it's at now.

00:09:16Marc:This is what's happening.

00:09:17Marc:Deal with it, fucker.

00:09:20Marc:I'm obviously projecting a lot.

00:09:24Marc:So look, you guys.

00:09:27Marc:John Densmore is a drummer.

00:09:31Marc:He was a door.

00:09:34Marc:His new book is called The Seekers, Meetings with Remarkable Musicians and Other Artists.

00:09:40Marc:You can get it wherever you get books.

00:09:42Marc:He writes about my interview with Gary Shandling in the book, actually, as an example of people searching for truth and transcendence through their art.

00:09:50Marc:And we talk about that a bit.

00:09:52Marc:This is me talking to the drummer of The Doors, John Densmore.

00:10:00John Densmore.

00:10:05Marc:So, John, how are you feeling, buddy?

00:10:08Guest:I got something I want to say.

00:10:10Marc:What?

00:10:12Marc:What the fuck, Mark?

00:10:13Marc:Exactly.

00:10:15Marc:What the fuck?

00:10:17Marc:I got no answer for you.

00:10:18Marc:I got no answer for you, John.

00:10:21Guest:Can we get Agent Orange to step down so I can sign some books?

00:10:26Marc:Yeah.

00:10:27Marc:I don't know if we're ever going to get him out of that fucking White House.

00:10:32Marc:Someone's going to have to go in and get him.

00:10:35Guest:Boy, does he suck all the air out of a room or what?

00:10:38Marc:Out of the world.

00:10:40Marc:But, like, when you think back on, you know, your life, I mean, you know, during the late 60s, I mean, what was the feeling around, you know, the chaos that Nixon was creating?

00:10:51Marc:Was it you were a younger man, but did you feel it as menacing or was it better or worse?

00:10:57Guest:It's the same.

00:10:58Guest:Although, you know, every night was horrendous napalming and...

00:11:04Guest:So maybe that was worse, but I don't know.

00:11:09Guest:My hatred of Donald is amazing.

00:11:12Guest:I mean, Bush, you know.

00:11:15Guest:But I said to a friend of mine the other day,

00:11:19Guest:Well, thank God Donald hasn't started a war.

00:11:22Guest:And my friend said he did the Civil War.

00:11:24Guest:Oh, right.

00:11:27Guest:So maybe Trump is the Vietnam War, which was a catalyst, difficult as it was, you know, as horrendous as all of this is now.

00:11:38Guest:um we did stop that war the people stopped that war and so i'm hoping praying that we're just finally maybe going around the corner a little bit towards light and there'll be some light for 10 years i hope i hope so too and where are you at you in la still um yeah i'm in santa monica where i was born and my mom was born here in 1904 but we're not native no no

00:12:07Marc:chumash indians are the natives first people where are you where's your people from uh ireland oh yeah yeah yeah but you've been in los angeles for the whole time you've seen the whole you know rise and fall and rise and fall again of uh of los angeles i mean i can't like i can't even imagine what when i see pictures of los angeles from the 60s and 70s it just looked fucking nuts

00:12:32Guest:I just got into town about an hour ago.

00:12:34Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:12:36Guest:Look around and see which way the wind blows.

00:12:38Guest:Yeah.

00:12:39Guest:Yeah, that was good.

00:12:40Marc:Yeah.

00:12:41Guest:But where were you, in New York?

00:12:43Marc:No, I grew up in Albuquerque.

00:12:44Marc:You know, I'm younger.

00:12:46Marc:I'm 57, and I was born in Jersey, but I mostly grew up in Albuquerque.

00:12:52Guest:Yeah.

00:12:53Marc:I got a weird question.

00:12:54Marc:It's not really a trivia question, but it's just like I recounted a story

00:12:58Marc:that I read in an oral history of punk rock that Iggy Pop told in how the Doors inspired him to sort of be who he is.

00:13:11Marc:And it was based on a show that you guys did.

00:13:14Marc:It must have been Ann Arbor or Detroit where Iggy went to see you guys and Jim did the entire show like singing the songs like Mickey Mouse or In a Weird Voice.

00:13:28Marc:And he wouldn't stop it.

00:13:29Marc:And the audience was getting furious.

00:13:32Marc:And they were fucking like just mad as hell.

00:13:34Marc:And he would not stop doing it.

00:13:36Marc:And Iggy thought it was the most amazing thing he'd ever see.

00:13:41Guest:Well, I'm glad to hear that, but I'm sorry, Mark.

00:13:44Guest:My brain cells are not clicking on that one.

00:13:47Marc:So was that crazy to where something like that wouldn't stand out?

00:13:54Guest:Well, the whole show, maybe a few minutes.

00:13:59Marc:Maybe his memory's off a little bit.

00:14:01Marc:Maybe a little poetic license.

00:14:04Marc:Sure.

00:14:05Marc:So let's talk about this, like the drive to to find truth and the sort of idea of what art is supposed to do seems to be something that, you know, you've always been obsessed with.

00:14:18Guest:Did you notice I quoted you?

00:14:21Marc:Yeah, I saw that during Shanling interview.

00:14:24Marc:Yeah.

00:14:27Marc:Exactly.

00:14:28Marc:I like the way you start is that you grew up in a creative house to a certain degree, huh?

00:14:34Guest:Yeah.

00:14:34Guest:Okay, I got this idea.

00:14:37Guest:I would do a tip of the hat to various musical icons who inspired me.

00:14:43Guest:And so I wrote a few chapters.

00:14:45Guest:And then I thought, oh, you know, my mom...

00:14:47Guest:She encouraged piano and drums, so I'll write a chapter on her.

00:14:52Guest:Then, and I thought, oh, let's be autobiographical.

00:14:56Guest:I'll stick it at the beginning of the book.

00:14:59Guest:Then it hit me a few weeks ago.

00:15:00Guest:Oh, wait a minute.

00:15:02Guest:In the chapter on Elvin Jones, Coltrane's drummer, I talk about how to drummers and everyone,

00:15:10Guest:That the first drumbeat you ever heard was your mother's heartbeat in the womb.

00:15:15Guest:Uh-huh.

00:15:16Guest:You know?

00:15:16Guest:Yeah.

00:15:17Guest:Well, of course, she's the first chapter.

00:15:19Marc:I was in her womb.

00:15:20Marc:Yeah.

00:15:21Marc:Yeah.

00:15:22Marc:And what I found sort of compelling was this idea that, you know, that she had some hardship in her life and some loss early on.

00:15:32Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:15:33Marc:And that creativity that she was driven to paint and draw to sort of manage the grief.

00:15:42Guest:Oh, man, that's good.

00:15:43Guest:I don't know if I implied that, but that helps me.

00:15:47Guest:Yeah, that's why she painted till 94.

00:15:50Guest:She channeled it.

00:15:51Guest:And that's what the book is sort of about, you know, whether you're a

00:15:55Guest:professional musician or playing your piano in the closet and nobody hears it, you're still getting in this zone that sort of feeds you and heals you.

00:16:07Marc:Well, when did you know for yourself?

00:16:08Marc:I mean, like when you were a kid and you were you were because you also do a chapter with with a teacher of yours, Fred Katz, right?

00:16:18Marc:yeah and but uh but when you were a kid i mean did you want to be an artist or did you want to just be a a rock and roller because you know the girls liked it uh no i i fell in love with music at eight years old playing the piano and then i

00:16:34Guest:played in the all the bands in school and all that but i never thought i would make a living at it it's such a crapshoot right right yeah yeah so that's why when i went to college i majored in accounting you know money accounting sure and then i got d's and went oh okay maybe i should major in something i like yeah yeah music but then i dropped out right and then what happened i got in this band and uh

00:17:02Guest:prayed that it would pay the rent 10 years and

00:17:06Guest:I'm 76 in a week, and I'm still talking about this fucking band.

00:17:15Marc:Well, you know, it happens with the guys that survive.

00:17:18Marc:You know what I mean?

00:17:19Marc:You make that much of a cultural impact.

00:17:23Marc:I guess it's sort of an albatross, but there's got to be some pride in it still, right?

00:17:28Guest:Oh, totally.

00:17:29Guest:I mean, you know, in my, let's see, first book, I have...

00:17:33Guest:three self-centered memoirs yeah uh well that's the nature of the form i argue with ray because he's like kind of selling the doors like willie lowman a little too much and he's giving me shit saying john well it's better to be in the doors than not yeah of course of course ray i have of the doors permanently etched on my forehead and i'm very proud of it but you know

00:18:01Guest:I also get divorced and have to go to the bathroom.

00:18:05Marc:Yeah.

00:18:07Marc:You have a life.

00:18:10Marc:So, but like when you guys started, I mean, when did you find, I guess in looking at the book and, you know, having not read your other books where,

00:18:17Marc:When did you sort of know that you were going to, you know, that what you were doing was not mainstream, it was not, you know, necessarily designed to make hits, but, you know, that you were on the path of an artist and not just a rock band?

00:18:31Marc:When did you start seeing it as art?

00:18:33Marc:Was it something that happened in the doors when you guys started taking more creative risks?

00:18:40Guest:Well, I mean, you know, we always wanted to become as popular as possible, but...

00:18:47Guest:I guess in Jim's lyrics were this searching of, you know, that I was young.

00:18:55Guest:I didn't understand it all, really, but it turned me on.

00:18:59Guest:And I'm thinking about you talking to Gary and about truth is in the silence and the void and...

00:19:07Guest:And addiction, you know, Gary goes on to say it's addiction if you can't sit quietly.

00:19:13Marc:Pretty interesting stuff.

00:19:14Marc:Oh, addiction to distraction.

00:19:16Marc:Well, I mean, but, you know, how did you survive?

00:19:18Marc:It seems that, you know, given what you were surrounded with, that somehow, you know, watching Jim, you know, kind of self-destruct, that somehow or another the other three of you, you did all right.

00:19:29Marc:You know, it didn't seem like you guys went down the same path much.

00:19:33Guest:Well, that was a teaching.

00:19:34Guest:Jim was always going too far.

00:19:37Marc:Yeah.

00:19:37Guest:You know, it's interesting.

00:19:39Guest:I, for years, would get asked the question, if Jim was around today, would he be clean and sober?

00:19:46Guest:And I always said, no, he was a kamikaze drunk.

00:19:50Guest:And then a few years ago, wait, hold it.

00:19:53Guest:I know a lot of really cool people.

00:19:55Guest:Clafton, Eminem.

00:19:58Guest:Yeah, of course he would.

00:19:59Guest:It's a different time.

00:20:01Guest:Right.

00:20:01Guest:Yeah.

00:20:02Guest:Yeah.

00:20:02Guest:But he was an example, and I definitely was more cautious, certainly dabbled.

00:20:08Guest:Yeah.

00:20:09Marc:But you didn't want to die.

00:20:14Marc:Not yet.

00:20:15Marc:I still don't.

00:20:16Marc:Good.

00:20:17Marc:In order to know that you can break on through the other side, there's some party that's trying to get there and you don't know what that's going to require.

00:20:25Marc:So we assume that he's on the other side now.

00:20:29Guest:Yeah.

00:20:29Marc:Yeah.

00:20:31Marc:But it seems like this book that you kind of move through.

00:20:34Marc:When did you first meet Elvin Jones?

00:20:36Marc:Was he an influence on you when you were younger?

00:20:38Marc:Well, yeah.

00:20:39Guest:I, as a teenager, stumbled into Shelley's manhole in Hollywood.

00:20:44Guest:Well, I was a jazz maniac.

00:20:46Guest:Like the chapter on Ray, our initiation was sharing the jazz mentors we love.

00:20:52Guest:And so I was telling Ray I saw Coltrane many times.

00:20:57Guest:Where, in L.A.?

00:20:59Guest:Yeah, with Elvin.

00:21:01Guest:and uh oh i just i didn't know i was seeing something that was really iconic but i knew there was magic i just knew it when how old were you when you were going to see them 18 or something we're down in downtown where was that where were they playing the coltrane guys hollywood oh yeah i i went to tijuana and got my fake id that said i was 21 and and the the

00:21:25Guest:Door guy said, nah, it's fake, but you can come in.

00:21:28Guest:It just fed me.

00:21:33Guest:I couldn't believe this drumming.

00:21:34Guest:It was so...

00:21:36Marc:primal yeah and and a conversation with coltrane and right and i kind of got the idea to have a conversation with jim you know so but so you were but but but but so from early on you were kind of like your brain was able to lock into that kind of journey you know it takes a certain type of mind to to lock into coltrane and jazz in general but you were sort of you were a freak for it early on

00:22:02Guest:Yeah, I guess I'm a seeker.

00:22:06Guest:I've been blessed with, I mean, all these chapters I saw.

00:22:13Guest:I was in Jamaica before reggae came to the States.

00:22:17Guest:Yeah.

00:22:18Guest:got in there and you know i i saw coltrane before he became giant do you remember when coltrane kind of started like going were you able to stay with him throughout the whole journey when he started getting really out there you still dug it oh oh yeah most definitely because he i knew his journey from bebop to cool jazz with miles yeah to his own quartet

00:22:46Guest:And then his own quartet went further out.

00:22:49Guest:So I'd go anywhere with him.

00:22:54Marc:And you got to talk to Alvin Jones.

00:22:56Guest:Yeah.

00:22:59Guest:I then saw him at Royce Hall.

00:23:02Guest:And then I went up to the stage because, you know, it's not like rock.

00:23:07Guest:It wasn't a Berlin wall.

00:23:09Guest:You could just go up there.

00:23:11Guest:And I just listened to it.

00:23:15Marc:Answer it.

00:23:16Marc:Tell them to call you back.

00:23:22Guest:Hey, I'm doing an interview.

00:23:23Guest:Bye.

00:23:26Guest:I don't know who that was.

00:23:31Guest:So I go on stage and Elvin is taking the nails out that he hammered on the floor of Royce Hall to keep his bass drum from sliding.

00:23:39Guest:Oh, wow.

00:23:40Guest:Talk about strong.

00:23:42Guest:Yeah.

00:23:42Guest:And I'm afraid to talk to him.

00:23:44Guest:Yeah.

00:23:45Guest:Years later, after Coltrane died, I see him in another club and I bring him my first book, Riders on the Storm.

00:23:53Guest:Real nervous that, you know, jazz is a higher art form and he'd be condescending.

00:23:59Guest:Yeah.

00:23:59Guest:And he'd never heard of The Doors.

00:24:01Guest:Come on.

00:24:04Guest:And I said, Elvin, in here I wrote that you gave me my hands.

00:24:08Guest:And he was so gracious.

00:24:10Guest:And then by the end of his life, if he was in town, I'd carry his drums to the car.

00:24:15Marc:Oh, really?

00:24:16Marc:You'd go see him wherever he was and help him out?

00:24:18Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:24:19Marc:It's a harder life, isn't it, Jazz?

00:24:21Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:24:23Marc:So you guys were kind of friends until he passed.

00:24:25Marc:Kind of.

00:24:26Marc:Yeah.

00:24:26Marc:mentors that's what i'm writing about you know sure i get it but i mean these guys you know it's interesting that you know the at the time that the doors around there was sort of a crashing of you know there was a period there in the 70s you know in late 60s where the generations were kind of mixing you know and you had the old timer rock and roll guys and you guys were the new wave but you were kind of sometimes you would do shows together or be around right yeah you know uh

00:24:53Marc:When did you meet Jerry Lee Lewis?

00:24:55Guest:Oh, that was later.

00:24:56Marc:Yeah.

00:24:58Guest:That was interesting.

00:24:59Guest:We got big enough, so we thought we had the power to dictate the second act.

00:25:04Guest:Uh-huh.

00:25:05Guest:So we were playing the Hollywood Bowl, and we said, and this is before Johnny Cash had a TV show.

00:25:11Guest:We said, well, Johnny Cash, I walked the line, and they said, we're not hiring a felon.

00:25:19Marc:Really?

00:25:20Yeah.

00:25:20Guest:I said, okay.

00:25:22Guest:And we couldn't do it.

00:25:23Guest:But then we played the Forum, and we got Jerry Lee Lewis.

00:25:27Marc:And, you know, we were pleased to tip the hat to the early 50s rockers.

00:25:31Marc:When the Doors played the Forum, you guys, you know, he was an opening act?

00:25:35Guest:He opened, and he had been playing country music, and we warned him, you know, play some of your hits.

00:25:42Guest:Yeah.

00:25:44Guest:And, you know, the audience was going, Jim, Doors.

00:25:48Guest:Yeah.

00:25:49Guest:And he...

00:25:50Guest:He, you know, cantankerous, he got up on the piano at the end and he said, for those of you like me, God love you.

00:25:57Guest:For the rest of you, I had a heart attack.

00:26:00Guest:Did he play the hits, though?

00:26:01Guest:Did he play them?

00:26:02Guest:He played them.

00:26:03Guest:He played with his feet.

00:26:05Guest:He slammed the piano.

00:26:06Guest:Yeah.

00:26:08Guest:And was he nice to you guys?

00:26:10Guest:He was.

00:26:11Guest:I mean, you know, they showed up without any instruments, which was rather odd.

00:26:15Yeah.

00:26:16Guest:Can we borrow your drums?

00:26:19Guest:Sure.

00:26:19Guest:Really?

00:26:20Guest:And Robbie says, well, I got a lot of guitars.

00:26:24Guest:What kind do you want?

00:26:26Guest:Jerry Lee says, any old Rockaday Fender guitar.

00:26:31Guest:Okay.

00:26:34Marc:Man, that's old school.

00:26:36Guest:Yeah.

00:26:36Marc:And he's still around, too, man.

00:26:38Guest:He is.

00:26:39Guest:You know, he's...

00:26:41Guest:86 or so, like Willie.

00:26:43Guest:Willie Nelson is my closing chapter, and he's 86 or 87.

00:26:48Guest:Yeah.

00:26:48Guest:So these guys are teachers for me to how to do this thing, you know?

00:26:52Marc:Sure.

00:26:52Marc:And what was your... Like, I have a weird... I had a weird encounter with Lou Reed, but it was just a fan encounter where, you know, I had... I went to get a record signed at a record store in Boston, and he was signing records.

00:27:05Marc:And I just really wanted to ask him, like, the right question.

00:27:08Marc:I knew I only had a second...

00:27:10Marc:And he cantankerous.

00:27:12Marc:Well, yeah, but I just was like, you know, I get up there and I'm like, hey, Lou, what gauge pick do you use?

00:27:17Marc:You know, like that was my big question.

00:27:19Marc:And he said, medium, man, you got to use a medium.

00:27:24Marc:And, you know, I used a medium for a few years.

00:27:26Marc:But it's just, yeah, he was cantankerous, but he was definitely definitive.

00:27:31Marc:Why did you choose to put him in?

00:27:33Marc:Do you have a lot of respect for his journey as well?

00:27:35Yeah.

00:27:35Guest:Yeah.

00:27:37Guest:At first, I didn't get the Velvet Underground.

00:27:40Guest:I saw them at the whiskey.

00:27:43Guest:And, you know, I was a West Coast, not a beach boy maniac, but, you know, they were dark.

00:27:51Guest:Nico was singing.

00:27:53Guest:Yeah.

00:27:53Guest:Then I realized, oh, wow.

00:27:56Guest:there's some power here in what they're up to.

00:27:58Guest:And musicianship is, you know, sort of secondary.

00:28:03Guest:And then he'd tune his guitar, that ostrich sound, and hit the guitar like a percussion instrument.

00:28:09Guest:I thought, oh, this is different.

00:28:11Guest:Okay.

00:28:12Marc:There's some art to it.

00:28:13Guest:What really was fun, I met him just after he got back from Czechoslovakia, where Veslav Havel was,

00:28:21Guest:had him come over for an interview because he inspired, uh, hovels when he was in jail.

00:28:28Guest:Yeah.

00:28:29Guest:And, and, uh,

00:28:31Guest:Lou was really, you know, high from that.

00:28:35Guest:I got high just hearing the story, you know.

00:28:37Marc:Yeah, yeah, sure.

00:28:39Marc:But it's interesting that you've been in L.A.

00:28:41Marc:for so long, but you didn't mention, you know, the Zappa scene.

00:28:45Marc:Did you not know Frank?

00:28:46Guest:Yeah, we knew Frank.

00:28:48Guest:We used to go over to his house for jam sessions.

00:28:51Guest:Oh, really?

00:28:52Guest:Yeah.

00:28:53Marc:Over in Laurel Canyon on Wilson?

00:28:55Marc:Yep, yep, yep, yep.

00:28:58Marc:But what was it like over there at that house?

00:29:00Marc:Oh, it was cool.

00:29:02Guest:Yeah.

00:29:03Guest:We played the blues.

00:29:04Guest:We played, you know, we talked with Frank about he was into avant-garde stuff, which we knew about.

00:29:11Marc:So you guys would sit around and he'd play like his strange Italian art composers and stuff and do his.

00:29:17Marc:He mainly watched everybody jam and took notes.

00:29:21Marc:Oh, really?

00:29:22Marc:Huh.

00:29:23Marc:I mean, mental.

00:29:24Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:29:25Marc:But you guys, it seems to me that, you know, that whatever the sound of the doors was, I was talking about it this morning to somebody because I knew I had to talk to you, is that, you know, people are like, well, the doors seem like there was a simplicity to it.

00:29:38Marc:And I'm like, yeah, but like you can't.

00:29:40Marc:The thing about the doors and what you guys did is that if you if you can hear one note of a song and know exactly who it is.

00:29:47Marc:You know, that band is an authentic, real, you know, kind of groundbreaking, you know, bunch of people.

00:29:55Marc:Like, you know, I think the simplicity of it was sort of disarming.

00:30:00Marc:Like, you know, given Jim's darkness and his showmanship played against the kind of almost jovial rhythm of some of the tunes, it kind of had this interesting balance.

00:30:10Guest:Well, I never heard that comment's simplicity, but what I think is...

00:30:16Guest:What made us, you know, when you like Lou Reed, you need you need to get enough technique to get across your uniqueness, whatever the hell it is.

00:30:29Guest:Sure.

00:30:29Guest:You know, classical musicians are the most technical of all time.

00:30:32Guest:Right.

00:30:32Guest:And they get a little stiff sometimes.

00:30:35Guest:Right.

00:30:35Guest:Although Gustavo Dudamel, who I write about.

00:30:38Guest:Yeah.

00:30:38Yeah.

00:30:38Guest:He he's totally aware of salsa and Led Zeppelin.

00:30:44Guest:And that's why he's so fluid.

00:30:46Guest:Right.

00:30:47Guest:You know, I go backstage after and he says to me, Juan.

00:30:54Guest:Uh, Gustav Mahler is heavy metal.

00:30:57Guest:Yeah.

00:30:58Guest:I could see that.

00:30:59Guest:And he, you know, so when you're open to being fed by all this, you find your uniqueness.

00:31:07Guest:You just need enough technique to,

00:31:09Guest:Maybe that's the simplicity part to get your thing across.

00:31:12Guest:And you can get stuck if you get too much technique.

00:31:15Marc:Right.

00:31:15Marc:You get you become sort of this kind of a noodler, a guy that can play really well, but the feeling's not there.

00:31:22Marc:You're right.

00:31:24Guest:Let me show you all my shit.

00:31:26Marc:Right.

00:31:26Guest:And when you listen to Willie Nelson take a solo, there is space.

00:31:32Guest:What a great guitar player.

00:31:34Guest:It's phrasing, which is what Gary Shanling is talking about, which is what Ron Doss is talking about.

00:31:41Guest:The quieter you become, the more you hear.

00:31:45Guest:There's truth in that space.

00:31:47Marc:Yeah, is that, like, what was it, what was your, you sort of riff a little bit about Gurdjieff.

00:31:53Marc:Is that how you pronounce his name?

00:31:54Guest:Yeah, that's, well, you know, there was this kind of iconic underground book, Meetings with Remarkable Men.

00:32:02Marc:Yeah, I tried to get into him, but I didn't succeed.

00:32:05Marc:Yeah, it's difficult.

00:32:06Guest:And then there was a cult film made by Peter Brook.

00:32:11Guest:Terrence Stamp was the star.

00:32:13Guest:It was really eccentric, but interesting in that

00:32:17Guest:all these men were searching, were musicians trying to play so well they catch God's ear.

00:32:24Guest:And I thought, oh, that's it.

00:32:27Guest:Meetings with remarkable musicians.

00:32:29Guest:I'll just use that.

00:32:30Guest:Right.

00:32:31Guest:And each chapter will be about people who fed me.

00:32:36Marc:Yeah.

00:32:36Marc:And it's like they're not all musicians, though.

00:32:38Marc:I mean, you know, I don't know what your relationship with the poet Robert Bly, but he seemed to have a profound effect on you.

00:32:47Marc:What was that about?

00:32:48Guest:Well, I say remarkable musicians, Perrin, and other artists.

00:32:52Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:32:53Marc:Sure.

00:32:53Sure.

00:32:53Guest:Well, yeah, he had a big effect on me, and I played drums while he read.

00:32:59Guest:You know, I think poetry, I think writing is looking for music in between sentences, in a way.

00:33:07Guest:Phrasing, again, space, and poetry is like the skeleton of language.

00:33:13Guest:It's really interesting.

00:33:14Guest:intense to try and get it so concise you know and what kind of time did you spend with that guy because he sort of led a movement for a little while there yeah no i was uh once again same deal i was in early we were had these men's groups and we were you know trying to break the mold of drinking beer and watching sports we were we were doing what women have done forever talk to each other about feelings and uh i remember robert saying you know

00:33:43Guest:If this ever becomes a movement, we're in trouble.

00:33:46Guest:Whoa, the men's movement.

00:33:51Guest:I mean, we weren't dissing women.

00:33:55Guest:We were just trying to share our shit like it's done at AA meetings or whatever.

00:34:02Guest:And it was a really great thing.

00:34:04Guest:And it got so big.

00:34:06Guest:but i would say that it inspired the million man march and and some good stuff so it helped you personally yeah yeah yeah did you what were your role models like as a kid you know what was your old man like oh he was behind the newspaper oh really that guy yeah and my mom yak yak yak all the time yeah and you know uh

00:34:30Guest:Twice a year, my dad had put the paper down and say, Peggy, shut up!

00:34:34Guest:And then back to the... Oh, man.

00:34:38Guest:But they were, you know, together 40 years and dedicated and

00:34:43Guest:I tried to do that route real hard.

00:34:46Marc:It wasn't my cards.

00:34:47Marc:Yeah.

00:34:48Marc:And, like, when you look back, like, in terms of the work you've done, you know, start, like, let's just, well, start with The Doors.

00:34:55Marc:So, like, in The Doors, what do you think was your sort of peak moment where you almost got God's ear?

00:35:02Marc:Because, I mean, I listened to that.

00:35:04Marc:I love the fucking first live album.

00:35:07Marc:And, you know.

00:35:08Marc:Wow.

00:35:09Marc:Yeah.

00:35:10Marc:that that thing like you know to me like you know i listened to the studio records but the one you know with one and five and you know and and i think the uh the end is on there as well right yeah i mean that record is sort of like that that was it that fucking rocked hard for me and it felt like that you kind of got out there on that one huh well we were still you know like people say um

00:35:35Guest:What's the most exciting concert?

00:35:37Guest:Well, you know, the giant Madison Square Garden was mass adulation.

00:35:42Guest:And that was cool.

00:35:42Guest:Yeah.

00:35:43Guest:What that is.

00:35:44Guest:Right.

00:35:45Guest:More exciting is the road up.

00:35:47Guest:Right.

00:35:48Guest:It's sort of like.

00:35:50Guest:Wow.

00:35:50Marc:we're gonna make a fucking living at this okay yeah and that's kind of on that live record we're still just wow yeah yeah but you're drumming like you know since you didn't really have a base to work you know to play off of i mean you had raised foot but like the rhythm section was you so like who were you taking your cues from jim

00:36:12Marc:no uh from myself but i mean did you follow him like when you're doing the end and he's kind of riffing and going off and doing whatever the fuck he's doing i mean you were you must have been in some symbiotic trip with that yeah that's very true on the end i'm i'm having that conversation with him like i saw a coltrane hat with elvin yeah but um a bass player

00:36:37Guest:A separate bass player and a drummer, they worked to keep the groove.

00:36:41Guest:And so it was just me and Ray's left hand.

00:36:44Guest:And so when he would get excited playing a solo, he'd speed up.

00:36:49Guest:So I'd go, whoa, we've got to pull the reins back.

00:36:52Guest:But without a bass player,

00:36:55Guest:there was more space, more room for me to improvise.

00:36:58Guest:You know, keep my job.

00:37:00Guest:The beat is my job.

00:37:02Guest:Yeah.

00:37:02Guest:To play off everybody and push them.

00:37:05Guest:Right.

00:37:05Guest:Dynamics is the whole deal.

00:37:08Guest:Yeah.

00:37:08Guest:For me.

00:37:10Guest:I'm not the fastest drummer, but once again,

00:37:13Guest:If you play pianissimo and fortissimo and everything in between, then you're getting a whole range of human emotions.

00:37:22Marc:Right.

00:37:23Guest:And that's where it is.

00:37:25Marc:So, yeah.

00:37:26Marc:So that's the trick.

00:37:28Marc:Put it all into the thing.

00:37:31Guest:Don't do it all at one level.

00:37:33Guest:That's why...

00:37:35Marc:metal is kind of tough for me i need some silence after that you know yeah like the up and down right yeah and you talk to uh in the you also talk to ravi shankar which is like to me like you know it's like i mean i have the same type of ability to like not everybody can listen to jazz not everybody can listen to raga you know and and like i love it

00:38:00Marc:I love listening to Shankar or any of the dudes that do the long-form Indian stuff.

00:38:05Marc:To me, it's like I can listen to that all day, and I find it completely compelling.

00:38:10Marc:What did you take away from that guy?

00:38:12Marc:Trance.

00:38:13Guest:Yeah.

00:38:14Guest:It's trance music.

00:38:16Guest:Yeah.

00:38:18Guest:It's interesting how...

00:38:20Guest:The Fab Four and the Fab Doors were simultaneously experimenting with then legal LSD.

00:38:30Guest:And there's no internet here.

00:38:32Guest:And then somehow we get on to Maharishi.

00:38:38Guest:Well, I guess we're thinking, well...

00:38:40Guest:This is informative, but shattering on our nervous system.

00:38:44Guest:Yoga is a calmer route.

00:38:46Guest:So we get into that and we get into that leads to Ravi Shankar and all of that.

00:38:52Guest:Yeah, it's the same.

00:38:55Guest:You know, we have no communication when

00:38:57Guest:England much, but they were sitar music was seeping into their stuff like us.

00:39:05Guest:Yeah.

00:39:07Guest:It's the Jungian archetypal undercurrents or something.

00:39:11Marc:Yeah, the collective unconscious.

00:39:14Marc:It was just at that time there was an integration.

00:39:16Marc:That's interesting.

00:39:16Marc:So it was sort of a movement from LSD to Maharishi, and then all of a sudden sitar music is everywhere.

00:39:22Marc:That was the universal thread.

00:39:24Yeah.

00:39:25Guest:Yeah, I think in that chapter, I say that it got so popular that they started using sitar music for porn flicks.

00:39:34Guest:And Robbie tried to stop them, but he couldn't.

00:39:39Guest:So the soundtrack of God became the soundtrack of sex.

00:39:43Marc:Well, you know, it's somehow or another.

00:39:46Marc:And so, you know, like I remember I think Michael Bloomfield in his desperation and late stage addiction was actually playing for some porn soundtracks.

00:39:58Guest:Oh, shit.

00:39:59Guest:Well, you know.

00:40:01Marc:junkies will do anything won't they i guess so man he must have seen a lot of that happen throughout the years oh i mean i don't know if if he was a junkie but i mean addiction yeah no yeah he was yeah he was it was pretty i i think he just and that's that's just hearsay but you know did heroin did you feel the impact like you know when did heroin really start destroying the rock scene in la here's the deal yeah

00:40:24Guest:We're experimenting with then legal psychedelics and pot.

00:40:28Guest:Yeah.

00:40:29Guest:And we're street scientists exploring our minds.

00:40:33Guest:Right.

00:40:34Guest:And then cocaine comes along.

00:40:36Guest:Right.

00:40:37Guest:Even Jim thought, wait a minute, that's like heroin.

00:40:40Guest:Isn't that some heavy shit?

00:40:42Guest:Right.

00:40:43Guest:And then that becomes cool.

00:40:45Guest:And, you know, we dabble.

00:40:47Guest:I'm already hyper, so it doesn't do it for me.

00:40:51Guest:I might go the other way.

00:40:52Guest:Right.

00:40:53Guest:And then the culture goes on to heroin.

00:40:55Guest:Oh, my God.

00:40:56Guest:It's just like, no.

00:40:58Guest:Really?

00:40:59Guest:Oh, God.

00:41:00Marc:And that's when people started dropping.

00:41:02Guest:Of course, alcohol took Jim out pretty much.

00:41:05Marc:Right.

00:41:05Marc:Old school.

00:41:06Guest:The legal drug.

00:41:07Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:41:09Marc:What was Janice like when you hung out with her?

00:41:11Guest:Oh, Janice was really great in the beginning.

00:41:14Guest:Real innocent.

00:41:15Guest:And then, you know, sad road for Janice because...

00:41:21Guest:she couldn't, you know, she had mass adulation and then went home alone and wasn't centered enough to cut pretty lonely and took the spirit in the bottle, you know?

00:41:35Guest:Yeah.

00:41:36Marc:Yeah.

00:41:37Guest:Or the needle.

00:41:38Marc:Yeah.

00:41:40Marc:Yeah.

00:41:41Marc:That's sad, huh?

00:41:42Marc:She was something else.

00:41:43Guest:And, you know, Jim and Janice were a couple of those people who have, uh,

00:41:51Guest:creativity and survival in one packet, addiction and creativity in one bag.

00:41:59Guest:Yeah.

00:41:59Guest:You know?

00:41:59Guest:Right.

00:42:00Guest:Some people don't.

00:42:01Guest:Right.

00:42:02Guest:Picasso lived in 90.

00:42:04Guest:Right.

00:42:05Guest:You know, it's just...

00:42:06Guest:As time goes on, I'm more and more grateful for what Jim and Janice gave us.

00:42:12Guest:And it was really hard being around them.

00:42:15Marc:I can imagine.

00:42:16Marc:Sometimes it's hard for me to listen to them.

00:42:19Guest:Yeah, right.

00:42:21Guest:Thanks a lot, Mark.

00:42:23Guest:What about you?

00:42:26Guest:Tell me about all those.

00:42:29Guest:Who's some comedic mentors for you?

00:42:31Marc:I think for me, like, you know, it became as time went on and I started to understand myself more about vulnerability, really.

00:42:40Marc:that there was something about Richard Pryor when he was able to... There was a rawness to his truth.

00:42:49Marc:So how do you get under the joke into something that actually speaks to the human condition in a way that's vulnerable and raw?

00:42:59Guest:That's what I mean by being so fed by Lenny Bruce and Richard and Chip and whatever.

00:43:06Guest:They're just trying to get...

00:43:07Guest:At the very roots of it all.

00:43:09Marc:Yeah.

00:43:09Marc:And I think Lenny Lenny was sort of like heady and, you know, but but also a great observer of human foibles and and systemic foibles.

00:43:20Marc:But, you know, but Richard, there was some sort of real kind of Richard was fragile, man.

00:43:25Marc:And, you know, and he couldn't hide it.

00:43:27Marc:So he, you know, he wore his heart on his sleeve.

00:43:29Marc:So, you know, and he brought that and he brought himself to to to what he was doing in a way that I don't know that anyone's ever really done it before.

00:43:38Marc:I mean, anger is easy and being a clown is easy.

00:43:41Marc:But, you know, really kind of being vulnerable in humor is tricky.

00:43:45Guest:You mean talking about.

00:43:47Guest:Lighten yourself on fire.

00:43:48Marc:Yeah, man.

00:43:50Guest:Right.

00:43:50Guest:Come on, Richard.

00:43:51Guest:Light yourself on fire.

00:43:55Marc:Yeah, man.

00:43:56Marc:I mean, you know, that took some balls, huh?

00:43:58Marc:To be a public, you know, to make that kind of horrendous mistake.

00:44:03Marc:And, you know, that horrible accident in the midst of all that darkness and addiction and then get an hour and a half out of it.

00:44:09Marc:Good for him, man.

00:44:10Marc:Oh, geez.

00:44:11Marc:In your career, though, it seemed like after The Doors, you kind of went on some different journey.

00:44:16Marc:I mean, like, there is a certain amount of humility and egolessness and real creative passion to sort of pursue dance.

00:44:26Marc:I mean, what was that about?

00:44:28Guest:Well, I became a drummer for a dance company.

00:44:32Marc:Okay.

00:44:33Guest:But what I realized, you know, it's not the goal of...

00:44:40Guest:the giant concert.

00:44:42Guest:It's, it's the road there.

00:44:44Guest:Yeah.

00:44:44Guest:And so I, I've been doing a poetry and drumming, hand drumming.

00:44:49Guest:Yeah.

00:44:50Guest:In clubs and stuff for years off and on.

00:44:54Guest:And man, if I have a good night, I feel that connection with the audience.

00:44:59Guest:I'm as high as Madison square garden.

00:45:01Guest:I mean, you know, there's something there's, it's sort of like if, if it's a,

00:45:08Guest:40 piece orchestra or a duet, that's one person on stage.

00:45:14Guest:And the audience, you know, Madison Square Garden or a club, that's the other person.

00:45:19Guest:and the two of you are gonna dance tonight yeah and mystery and magic is how's it gonna go right is it gonna be a salsa a waltz right punk i mean metaphor yeah yeah and that's uh that's what i'm missing so much now with the pandemic just seeing live music and the connection it's really it's really a big part of your life huh well uh you know i i

00:45:45Guest:I became a writer 10, 20 years ago.

00:45:48Guest:And so I'm used to this sort of monk like thing.

00:45:52Guest:So I'm all right with it.

00:45:54Marc:Yeah.

00:45:54Guest:But I miss the social.

00:45:56Marc:Yeah.

00:45:56Marc:Human beings.

00:46:01Guest:Yeah.

00:46:01Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:46:02Marc:Our tribe.

00:46:03Marc:Yeah.

00:46:03Marc:When did you when did you first how old the where was Ram Dass and his wife when you when you had the experience with him?

00:46:10Guest:Well, I was playing with his buddy Krishna Das.

00:46:13Guest:The two of them went to India recently.

00:46:15Guest:In the 60s.

00:46:16Guest:Yeah.

00:46:17Guest:Gave the guru LSD.

00:46:19Guest:And the guru said, what else you got?

00:46:24Guest:And they went, this is our guy.

00:46:27Guest:Yeah.

00:46:28Guest:And so I was playing percussion with Krishna Das.

00:46:31Guest:And Ram Das came.

00:46:35Guest:And I got to meet him.

00:46:38Guest:And then I got invited to his house.

00:46:42Guest:This was after he had the stroke, of course.

00:46:44Guest:Yeah.

00:46:45Guest:So I had dinner with him.

00:46:48Guest:And, man, I got to say, the love vibe was palpable.

00:46:52Guest:Yeah.

00:46:53Guest:I don't want to be corny, but, man, oh, man.

00:46:55Guest:Wow.

00:46:57Guest:Yeah.

00:46:58Guest:To be dealt the card of a stroke where you're like Gary Snyder, the spaces.

00:47:09Guest:Yeah.

00:47:10Yeah.

00:47:10Guest:But he translated that as, okay, the listener is getting more in that silence than even if I was blah, blah, blah.

00:47:19Marc:Interesting.

00:47:21Guest:That's a...

00:47:22Guest:Wow.

00:47:23Guest:And he had a real love vibe and he was in a wheelchair and it wasn't pretty.

00:47:27Marc:Well, that was sort of him.

00:47:28Marc:Like, I mean, you know, that his sort of process around, you know, you know, sort of moving towards death and mortality and kind of making a sort of accepting mortality is his trip.

00:47:43Marc:Right.

00:47:43Marc:So he.

00:47:44Marc:So, like, I guess, you know, when you have a stroke, like I just talked to Michael J. Fox the other day because he's got he's got a book out.

00:47:51Marc:And it seems to me that the people that accept and, you know, build a relationship with their sickness or with their their their liabilities, the people that befriend it and accept that this is going to be their partner.

00:48:06Marc:From here on out, for one way or another, are the people that are able to sort of stay in a light when it comes to life, you know?

00:48:16Guest:And that's a teaching for us.

00:48:18Marc:Right.

00:48:18Guest:Because, you know, we're, you know, maybe our road is not as dramatic, but we got to yield.

00:48:27Guest:This aging makes you yield.

00:48:29Guest:Yeah.

00:48:30Guest:And it's hard sometimes.

00:48:31Guest:Yeah.

00:48:32Guest:But as George Harrison wrote, some, you know, he knew he had cancer.

00:48:39Guest:Some days are quite sublime.

00:48:41Marc:Yeah.

00:48:43Guest:So.

00:48:43Marc:Yeah.

00:48:44Marc:And that's right.

00:48:44Marc:And that's in the midst of all this chaos and horror that we're dealing with now.

00:48:48Marc:When I'm out here sitting on my porch, this is the life right here, right now.

00:48:53Marc:You know, everything that's outside of me and everything I know that's going on that's horrible is not here right now.

00:49:00Marc:I'm having a nice day.

00:49:02Guest:And no disrespect, you know, and hopefully you and I don't get the virus.

00:49:07Guest:Yes.

00:49:08Guest:But the Earth...

00:49:12Guest:Our footprint on the earth is lighter, and that's something to think about.

00:49:17Marc:Oh, you mean with everything stalled?

00:49:19Guest:Yeah, with everything stalled.

00:49:21Marc:Yeah, I thought about that.

00:49:22Marc:Yeah, we're giving the earth a rest as we're all taking the hit.

00:49:25Marc:But, I mean, I guess maybe we had it coming.

00:49:28Marc:I talked to Patti Smith a couple weeks ago, and she's lovely.

00:49:31Marc:You had a nice time with her?

00:49:33Guest:Oh, oh, oh, God.

00:49:36Marc:She's the best, right?

00:49:37Guest:I mean, you know, she jumpstarts the whole punk thing.

00:49:42Guest:Yeah.

00:49:42Guest:Then she crosses over and writes a National Book Award book.

00:49:48Guest:Oh, my God.

00:49:49Guest:She's great.

00:49:49Guest:I'm a writer.

00:49:50Guest:Yeah.

00:49:50Guest:Wow, what a renaissance woman, you know, and humble.

00:49:56Guest:She's a real deal.

00:49:57Guest:And as you said, I listened to a little of the interview, that she's part of that lineage, that beautiful thread from Beatnik to Burroughs.

00:50:07Guest:Right.

00:50:09Guest:It's sort of like...

00:50:11Guest:The hippies are on the shoulders of the beats.

00:50:15Guest:Right.

00:50:16Guest:Uh, the punks are on the shoulders of the hippies.

00:50:21Guest:The grunge is on the shoulders of the punks.

00:50:25Marc:And so it goes, you know, we're all learning from each other.

00:50:29Marc:And now let's talk a little bit about like, um, in terms of like how you felt about how the doors music was going to be used or allowed to use.

00:50:38Marc:What was your source of, of angst about that?

00:50:43Guest:Well, Mark, uh,

00:50:45Guest:It goes like this.

00:50:51Guest:We are solicited to do, come on, Buick, light my fire.

00:50:57Guest:Oh, wow.

00:50:57Guest:Yeah.

00:50:57Guest:Okay.

00:50:58Guest:And we're kind of considering it.

00:51:00Guest:Jim's out of town.

00:51:01Guest:And he comes back and says, good idea.

00:51:04Guest:Good idea.

00:51:05Guest:And I got to, you know, for a commercial, I'll go on television and I'll smash the car with a sledgehammer.

00:51:10Guest:Yeah.

00:51:12Guest:Oh, that's a no.

00:51:13Guest:Yeah.

00:51:15Guest:And so I'm thinking, wow, he didn't write that song.

00:51:19Guest:He wrote one line, Our Love Become a Funeral Pyre, of course, Morrison-esque, right?

00:51:25Guest:Yeah.

00:51:25Guest:Who wrote that song?

00:51:27Guest:Robbie wrote that song.

00:51:28Guest:Right.

00:51:29Guest:Robbie Kruger.

00:51:30Guest:And so, whoa, Jim cares about the whole catalog, everything we're doing here.

00:51:37Guest:So how can I break on through to a new deodorant?

00:51:41Guest:Right, right.

00:51:42Guest:Or...

00:51:43Guest:Love me two times because I just took Viagra.

00:51:46Guest:Right.

00:51:47Guest:Yeah.

00:51:49Guest:Yeah.

00:51:49Guest:So, you know, I've been Mr. Vito.

00:51:51Guest:Got a lot of shit for it.

00:51:53Guest:And now people have come around more.

00:51:57Marc:So it was basically protecting the legacy and honoring what you thought Jim's vision was and what you thought the creative vision of the band was.

00:52:04Marc:And you stuck by it because you didn't want to fucking sell it out.

00:52:08Guest:To the point of suing my bandmates.

00:52:10Guest:Oh, my God.

00:52:12Guest:Yeah.

00:52:13Guest:That was so painful.

00:52:14Guest:I couldn't believe I did it.

00:52:16Marc:But because what they were just seeing an easy payday, right, on some level?

00:52:21Guest:Yeah.

00:52:26Marc:They must have been doing okay.

00:52:27Marc:It's not like the doors... Well, that's what my question was.

00:52:31Guest:It was hard.

00:52:33Guest:It was kind of like

00:52:34Guest:chappelle what what did he turn down 50 60 million right all right so it got up to 15 million for break on through to a cadillac gas right gas guzzling you know yeah i mean mind you after managers and splitting it all up it'd only be a few million each but still yeah i said to uh ray and robbie okay um

00:53:00Guest:We all have a nice house and kind of a couple of groovy cars.

00:53:04Guest:What are you going to buy?

00:53:05Guest:What do you need?

00:53:06Guest:Dot, dot.

00:53:08Guest:There was that space.

00:53:09Guest:Dot, dot, dot.

00:53:10Guest:Yeah.

00:53:11Guest:The truth came in.

00:53:12Guest:There was no answer.

00:53:15Guest:And I was like, so?

00:53:17Guest:Yeah.

00:53:18Guest:I'm going to veto.

00:53:19Guest:Right.

00:53:20Guest:Let me say this too, Mark, important.

00:53:23Guest:This was way back.

00:53:24Guest:Yeah.

00:53:24Guest:And things got so hard.

00:53:26Guest:If a new band wanted to do a commercial to pay the rent, I get that.

00:53:31Guest:Sure.

00:53:32Guest:No.

00:53:32Guest:Yeah.

00:53:33Guest:But then again, if you get a toehold on success, maybe reexamine that decision and don't do it anymore.

00:53:38Marc:But in our case...

00:53:40Marc:Well, it was like, you know, the guy, you know, it would be on the grave of Jim Morrison.

00:53:44Marc:And these were iconic songs.

00:53:47Marc:It's one thing, you know, if you need to make ends meet and you do a commercial with a tune that, you know, maybe no one's even heard before.

00:53:53Marc:You want to sell a jingle, you know, but it's different where they're like, this song represented something.

00:53:57Marc:It was a big shift in thinking, like even with like...

00:54:02Marc:For some people, they used Iggy Pop's Search and Destroy, I think, for a Nike commercial.

00:54:08Marc:And I talked to the dude, a music manager.

00:54:11Marc:He said that the guy who used that song for that or got permission to use it didn't even know who Iggy was.

00:54:18Marc:He saw the title on a list of songs.

00:54:22Marc:And then checked it out.

00:54:23Marc:But but oddly, you know, for Iggy, you know, it kind of like it kind of reinvigorated his career and he probably needed the bread because he doesn't have.

00:54:32Guest:Yeah.

00:54:33Marc:Yeah.

00:54:33Guest:You know, when when Nike backed up Colin Kaepernick, I I'm not I don't wear sports gear.

00:54:41Guest:Yeah.

00:54:41Guest:But I went to Nike and bought a T-shirt, you know.

00:54:44Guest:That's cool.

00:54:48Guest:But Pete Townsend, I quote in my second book, The Unhinged, the other point of view.

00:54:54Guest:I say, oh, you know, people were in Vietnam getting fed by our songs or fell in love for the first time they got high.

00:55:01Guest:We can't change the soundtrack to their life.

00:55:04Guest:And Pete Townsend says...

00:55:06Guest:I don't give a fuck if you fell in love with Shirley to my song.

00:55:09Guest:It's my song.

00:55:10Guest:I'll do what I want.

00:55:11Marc:Right, man.

00:55:12Marc:Right, man.

00:55:13Guest:There you are.

00:55:14Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:55:15Marc:It's like William Burroughs said to Patti Smith, you got to keep your name clean.

00:55:21Marc:You know what I mean?

00:55:22Marc:But now, did you guys, did everybody end on a good note?

00:55:27Marc:Like when Ray passed, were you okay?

00:55:30Guest:We were strained and...

00:55:33Guest:I sent them the last chapter of the second book with a note saying, listen, this is going to be a hard pill to swallow.

00:55:41Guest:I want to make sure you got to this chapter.

00:55:43Guest:I say in here, how could I not love you guys?

00:55:47Guest:We created magic in a garage.

00:55:51Guest:And...

00:55:53Guest:Then when I heard Ray was getting really sick, I called him and thank God he picked the phone up.

00:55:59Guest:Nobody does that.

00:56:00Guest:Yeah.

00:56:01Guest:And we talked about his cancer and none of the legal shit, which was over.

00:56:08Guest:I won.

00:56:08Guest:But it felt good to hear his voice, you know.

00:56:13Guest:Yeah, I bet.

00:56:14Guest:It was a closure.

00:56:16Guest:i feel jim and him even deeper now yeah yeah you can talk to him sure fuck yeah of course you do you think about jim regularly uh i have dreams about him occasionally oh yeah i remember he told us this dream he had um

00:56:36Guest:we're playing a big concert and he goes back to the hotel room and he's walking down the hall and he hears a bunch of voices in his room.

00:56:45Guest:Yeah.

00:56:46Guest:And he looks at the key and that's the right room.

00:56:49Guest:And he opens the door and there's a whole bunch of people in there partying and they look at him like, who the fuck are you?

00:56:55Guest:And that was the dream.

00:56:58Guest:Wow.

00:57:00Guest:Whoa.

00:57:01Guest:Pretty interesting.

00:57:03Marc:What'd you dream about him?

00:57:05Guest:Oh, I dreamt that he was back.

00:57:09Marc:Yeah.

00:57:09Guest:He was clean and sober.

00:57:11Guest:He was in like an Armani suit.

00:57:13Guest:Wow.

00:57:13Guest:And he wanted to play.

00:57:16Guest:Play music.

00:57:17Wow.

00:57:18Marc:He was ready to go.

00:57:20Marc:Yeah.

00:57:22Marc:Yeah.

00:57:23Marc:I guess like when you have the time you guys had, you know, for the amount of time you had it, I guess it's hard.

00:57:30Marc:Like those memories must be pretty amazing.

00:57:33Marc:I mean, I'm not saying that, you know, you don't have a life after that, which you obviously do, but you, the bond you create with guys that, like you said, you make magic that lasts forever.

00:57:43Marc:You must be really something.

00:57:44Yeah.

00:57:45Guest:Well, I've had several marriages, Mark.

00:57:48Guest:But this one's gone on my whole life.

00:57:52Guest:Yeah.

00:57:52Guest:I think I was on Charlie Rose.

00:57:55Guest:Remember him?

00:57:56Guest:Yeah.

00:57:57Guest:And he liked this line.

00:57:58Guest:I said, being in a band is polygamy without sex.

00:58:02Marc:Right.

00:58:02Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:58:03Marc:You guys are in it.

00:58:04Marc:Yeah.

00:58:04Marc:And do you talk to Robbie?

00:58:07Guest:Occasionally.

00:58:08Marc:Yeah.

00:58:09Marc:How's he doing?

00:58:10Marc:Is he all right?

00:58:11He played me.

00:58:11Guest:After the legal hassle, we finally played some music together at the county museum and it felt really sweet.

00:58:18Guest:Immediately it was like we were back.

00:58:21Marc:Really?

00:58:22Marc:It's so distinct.

00:58:23Marc:It's so wild that you could just pick up after so many years and you lock right into it, right?

00:58:29Guest:Yeah, because it's so in your blood.

00:58:33Guest:That's amazing to me.

00:58:34Guest:You can remember those songs.

00:58:36Guest:I mean, Gustavo Dudamel conducts

00:58:41Guest:Without a manuscript.

00:58:42Guest:Yeah.

00:58:43Guest:Beethoven, all those symphonies are just in his frigging head.

00:58:47Guest:It's crazy.

00:58:48Guest:Yeah.

00:58:49Marc:Well, I saw it like I just like that.

00:58:50Marc:The moment where I was watching that above us only sky, which was a documentary about, you know, John Lennon and the making of Imagine that, you know, the family had all this footage.

00:58:59Marc:It'd been around forever because I talked to.

00:59:01Marc:I talked to Sean Lennon about it and he said, yeah, he knew that footage because they had it.

00:59:05Marc:You know, they oversaw the putting together of that documentary.

00:59:09Marc:But there's a moment where, you know, John's out at that mansion and they're recording Imagine.

00:59:14Marc:And, you know, he has George come out.

00:59:16Marc:to play on a few songs right and there's just a moment that they capture on camera where john's on the piano and george is sitting there holding a guitar and john just looks at george and and and you know looks at him with that face like you know we understand each other on a level that you know no one else can even understand and george immediately got it without anything being said and knew exactly what to do and i was like holy shit that's amazing

00:59:43Guest:Well, I mean, you know, if you work together a long time, it's kind of like a private club.

00:59:52Guest:Right.

00:59:53Guest:But, you know, with much gratitude for all the fans.

00:59:58Marc:And I also think that a lot of people don't realize how many dates you guys fucking did.

01:00:01Marc:I mean, it's like you got these records, but you guys were on the road a lot, right?

01:00:04Marc:Yeah.

01:00:05Marc:For six years straight, we were at it.

01:00:08Marc:I mean, that's so many shows, so much places.

01:00:10Marc:I mean, like, I always forget that, like people like Hendrix and you guys.

01:00:14Marc:It's like we hear the records.

01:00:16Marc:We hear the live record or two.

01:00:18Marc:But you guys did hundreds of dates, hundreds of dates.

01:00:21Marc:So it becomes intuitive.

01:00:23Marc:Right.

01:00:24Guest:You just you go in that space.

01:00:27Marc:Yeah.

01:00:28Marc:Yeah.

01:00:28Marc:That's it.

01:00:29Marc:And then all of a sudden you're in it.

01:00:31Marc:It must be just elating most of the time.

01:00:33Guest:But you want to make it fresh, too.

01:00:35Guest:Yeah.

01:00:36Guest:Like in comedy, you know, just the phrasing of a joke.

01:00:40Guest:Yeah.

01:00:41Guest:Or it flops and then something happens that is hysterical.

01:00:45Guest:Right.

01:00:46Guest:Leave a little room, a little space.

01:00:48Guest:That's improvisation.

01:00:49Guest:Yeah, man.

01:00:50Guest:Which is jazz, and that's the best.

01:00:54Marc:My chapter on Ray is called Improvisation, so it's all connected.

01:00:57Marc:Sure, man.

01:00:57Marc:And it's like, and those are sometimes the best moments, is that one, you know, that few minutes you got out of it, where it's like, oh my God.

01:01:05Guest:You know, getting older, I don't have as much technique drumming-wise, but I think I've learned that

01:01:14Guest:If you put the right cymbal crash in the right spot, it's as powerful as these big flurries I did in my 20s.

01:01:23Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:01:23Guest:You know, same in comedy, I'm sure.

01:01:25Guest:Just the right...

01:01:26Marc:Yeah, it's it's it's adjusting.

01:01:29Marc:It's evolving your timing.

01:01:31Marc:There's something more satisfying to that than, you know, than just the flurry.

01:01:36Marc:I mean, if you can if you can nail it with one beat, you're like, whoa, you know what I mean?

01:01:41Marc:Yielding.

01:01:42Marc:Yielding.

01:01:43Marc:Yeah, man.

01:01:44Marc:Yielding.

01:01:45Marc:Where'd you get that word?

01:01:46Guest:I got that from a cover of a Pearl Jam album called Yield.

01:01:52Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:01:53Guest:And the bass player took the photograph of a Yield sign.

01:01:56Guest:Right.

01:01:57Guest:That's pretty hip.

01:02:00Guest:You like those guys?

01:02:02Guest:Oh, Eddie sang with us when we were inducted into the Rock Hall of Fame.

01:02:05Guest:Yeah.

01:02:07Guest:I love that guy.

01:02:08Guest:Great singer, huh?

01:02:09Guest:Oh, my God.

01:02:10Guest:Those pipes from that little guy.

01:02:12Guest:Crazy.

01:02:16Marc:Well, hey, man, it was good talking to you.

01:02:17Marc:And I love the book and I wish you the best of success with it.

01:02:21Marc:And you seem healthy.

01:02:22Marc:So you'll be around a while.

01:02:24Marc:Yeah.

01:02:25Marc:Really great connection.

01:02:26Marc:Yeah, man.

01:02:27Marc:It was fun.

01:02:28Marc:Take care of yourself.

01:02:29Marc:Same with you, man.

01:02:30Marc:OK, buddy.

01:02:30Marc:Adios.

01:02:36Marc:That was John Densmore, old groovy guy, still groovy, still doing the thing, still being that guy from the old days.

01:02:44Marc:The book is called The Seekers, Meetings with Remarkable Musicians and Other Artists.

01:02:52Marc:Here we go.

01:02:54Marc:Let's play some Stratocaster.

01:02:57Marc:Straight in with the built-in tremolo and echo on the vibreverbe.

01:03:04Guest:.

01:03:22.

01:03:22Guest:Thank you.

01:03:45Thank you.

01:04:08.

01:04:23.

01:04:23guitar solo

01:04:48Thank you.

01:05:08Marc:Boomer and Monkey and La Fonda live on.