Episode 1178 - Mike Campbell
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck sticks what the fuck tuckians happy thanksgiving i hope you did what was right for you and for others in your fucking life i hope you did that
Marc:It strikes me that not a lot of people, I don't think it's that they don't give a shit.
Marc:There's just a certain air of entitlement and rolling of the dice.
Marc:Ah, maybe I won't get it.
Marc:I probably won't get it.
Marc:If I do get it, it won't be the bad one.
Marc:I won't get the bad one.
Marc:That's how people start thinking about AIDS after Magic Johnson just kept living.
Marc:Maybe it's not so bad.
Marc:Maybe I don't have to wrap this fucker.
Marc:It's all bad.
Marc:It spreads.
Marc:It's bad.
Marc:But look, look, if you're with family, I think you should know this, folks, that this is actually our 12th Thanksgiving show.
Marc:Our 12th.
Marc:And generally, as many of you know, who've been listening to you for years, I usually have a little almost like a guided meditation for Thanksgiving for listeners.
Marc:I guide them out of their homes, out into the streets to cry and take a walk.
Marc:I got to put something together for this one.
Marc:This one's different.
Marc:I would like to mention that Mike Campbell is on the show today, and he's the guitarist, was the guitarist for Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers.
Marc:He's a member of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
Marc:Rolling Stone named him one of the greatest guitarists of all times.
Marc:And he's just put out a record with his band, the Dirty Knobs, called Reckless Abandoned.
Marc:Now, look, we've been sitting on this talk for a while.
Marc:He pushed up the release of this thing because of COVID.
Marc:and other things, whatever it was.
Marc:But we recorded this in February.
Marc:February.
Marc:When the album was supposed to come out.
Marc:February.
Marc:Before the plague.
Marc:February.
Marc:Before the lovely Lynn Shelton left this sphere.
Marc:February.
Marc:Before my girlfriend died.
Marc:Different fucking world, man.
Marc:And I don't know if you can hear it in my voice, if you can hear that love was still alive actively in my voice, that fear of getting a disease that could kill you, not in my voice, not in my heart, not in my mind.
Marc:Just the standard horrendous anger and terror of Trump.
Marc:Now that's passing.
Marc:But this was a different time and it was just back in February.
Marc:And I remember I was trying to figure out how to approach Mike, what to say to him.
Marc:And then I realized how much...
Marc:You know, I missed Tom Petty at that time and still do.
Marc:How much we all, if you think about it, how can you not miss Tom Petty?
Marc:And I just remember that this is actually, you know, like before Lynn passed away, before condolences, getting and giving them was a regular part of my life.
Marc:I thought that the proper thing to do
Marc:To open this conversation with Mike was to offer my condolences for the loss of his friend Tom, which I did.
Marc:It was a heavy moment, but it's a moment I'm very familiar with now from the other side.
Marc:But I do think it was the right way to open.
Marc:Anyway, I'll share that with you in a few minutes.
Marc:I don't even know what's going on today.
Marc:Is the dog show on?
Marc:The parade can't be happening.
Marc:I don't know what your situation is, so I'm going to kind of give a two-pronged peppy, a two-pronged pepster, a two-pronged pep talk.
Marc:First of all, as I've said leading up to this day, Thanksgiving, don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
Marc:I know a lot of you are like, you didn't get to travel.
Marc:But think about it.
Marc:Are you one of those people that actually on some level is dreading the travel?
Marc:Every part of getting to where you're going is an aggravation.
Marc:And when you get there, you put up with it.
Marc:It's aggravating.
Marc:But look, I mean, it's it's what you know.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:Family's family, no matter how much you bitch, no matter how much you complain, no matter how miserable you are in it, it's predictable.
Marc:You understand it.
Marc:You lock into that groove.
Marc:Even if you're isolating with your wife and your kid or your husband and your kid or your husband and your wife and no kid or your husband and your husband, whatever it is.
Marc:If you've been holed up and just doing that thing, just scared all the time, maybe it would be a relief to be around people that just make you miserable in a predictable way, not terrified, just unhappy and questioning your entire ability to have any sense of well-being.
Marc:Maybe you miss that.
Marc:But if that's the position you're in, if you've chosen not to travel because it's the right thing to do out of fear for yourself, others, your family,
Marc:Take a minute and just do it.
Marc:Actually try to be grateful.
Marc:Take a minute.
Marc:Sit down.
Marc:Look at the people you love if they're with you.
Marc:If they're not there, look at the mirror.
Marc:That's hard.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Fuck that guy.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Fuck her.
Marc:I know.
Marc:But look at her.
Marc:Look at him and say, hey, hey, we're fucking alive, man.
Marc:We're still alive.
Marc:Some days I don't want to be.
Marc:Some days it's hard, but we're still alive and we're getting through this.
Marc:We're getting through this.
Marc:Together, even though no one else is here, I know everybody else is experiencing roughly the same bullshit.
Marc:And try to find it in your heart and in your mind to be a little grateful that you're pressing on, whether you want to or not some days.
Marc:And if, look, if you've got a family and it's been difficult, be grateful you have love and children in your life.
Marc:Right?
Right.
Marc:that you have love in your life, that somebody's there that loves you, that you have these children, that you're okay.
Marc:I think we can all, if it's possible, and maybe you're not, maybe things are terrible, and I'm sorry.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Marc:I hope things get better, but there's got to be something you can find in your mind and in your heart to be grateful for.
Marc:I mean, what else have we got?
Marc:I don't know what's going to happen.
Marc:I don't know what happens when we go back to whatever we were where we were.
Marc:There's no going back to what we had, to what we were, to how it was.
Marc:There's no going back.
Marc:Things are broken.
Marc:Things are dirty.
Marc:Things are polluted.
Marc:Things are germy.
Marc:Divisions have been nurtured and will remain.
Marc:But I think as we head into this new year, as we head into the holidays, as we head into this day spent alone or with family, however you feel about it, I think a little gratitude's in order.
Marc:But also a little bit of like, what am I going to do?
Marc:Are we all just sort of chomping at the bit to get back to what we were?
Marc:I don't know if that's going to happen.
Marc:But what are we going to do?
Marc:How are we going to step up?
Marc:What changed?
Marc:What did we see that happened that would make us go, you know what?
Marc:I'm fucking done being this, being out of the loop.
Marc:I'm done being detached.
Marc:I'm done being apathetic.
Marc:I'm done only caring about myself.
Marc:I'm going to do what?
Marc:I'm going to do, what are you going to do?
Marc:Figure it out in your gratitude, in your heart.
Marc:How are you going to help?
Marc:Right?
Marc:So here's my standard.
Marc:It's like, hey, if you're there, if you're locked up, if you're holed up with family, if you're nervous, if you feel terror, if you feel uncomfortable, if you feel angry, whatever, maybe you're regretting going, maybe you're nervous about COVID, whatever it is, get outside no matter how cold it is and take a walk.
Marc:Take a walk around the block.
Marc:Squirt out a few tears.
Marc:Take some deep breaths.
Marc:Take a walk around the block with a doggy or a cousin that you love or a kid.
Marc:Just take a walk around the block.
Marc:Get some air.
Marc:Look around.
Marc:We're on the orb, the giant rock.
Marc:It's still floating, still spinning.
Marc:It's OK.
Marc:You can still breathe.
Marc:I don't know how long that'll be true for, but you can right now.
Marc:Just get some air.
Marc:And also, the other thing I want to say is, you know, if you did have to go home or you are at home or maybe you've always been home or your folks just live down the street and maybe you're spending time.
Marc:With that family member who was a Trump supporter, which is difficult, which has been difficult for four years because you've been nothing but filled with bile and anger, trying not to hate your relatives for being brain fucked by a grifter.
Marc:by a pig grifter, President Pig Grifter, by trying to continue to see your relatives or your brother, your father, your sister, whoever, as the person you knew when you were growing up, as the person that had a good heart once, as a person who seemed reasonable, but somehow became addled with bullshit and just pushed their fear through the conspiracy template.
Marc:Now things are shifting.
Marc:Hopefully everything will continue to shift.
Marc:But I think you can now say to them that you understand them, that you understand them.
Marc:If they're sitting there going like it was rigged,
Marc:You know, it's like it's a lie.
Marc:You can just say, look, I understand.
Marc:I understand that your conception of America is different than mine.
Marc:That what you think is American is different than what I think of America as.
Marc:That what you understand this country to represent is different than me.
Marc:That I understand that you think that Americans...
Marc:are supposed to lie and cheat and steal shamelessly, proudly to get what they want.
Marc:That you understand that they believe that lying, cheating and stealing and overturning the will of the people is an appropriate thing to do to hold on to power of the autocrat leader that they like and believe despite the facts.
Marc:You can now look at your loved ones and say, I understand that what you hoped for and what you want more than anything at any cost to anyone around you or the country at large and the planet is an authoritarian system with an autocratic leader who is willing to lie and cheat and steal and break the current democratic system we have in order to maintain power.
Marc:Just say, I understand you now that America to you is based on minority rule and racism and limited choices for all.
Marc:And that liberty is relative to those who are willing to lie and cheat and steal and believe in autocracy and authoritarianism.
Marc:And that racism is justified.
Marc:That the American melting pot, that the idea of democracy, that the idea of diversity, that the idea of equality,
Marc:is bullshit and that you understand that's what they think and that you feel better now after four years to see clearly
Marc:who you once thought were your friends or people you understood in your family, that you now know, okay, you believe in authoritarianism, you believe in minority rule, you are sympathetic to racists and you think it's okay to lie and cheat and steal to subvert the democratic election process in order to gain power.
Marc:And that you believe
Marc:That having no moral center and no sense of values is strength.
Marc:And just say that to them.
Marc:Just say, I get it now.
Marc:Could you pass the potatoes?
Marc:Yeah, well, it's not going to, you know, you can pick that up again in four years if that's the way it's going to go.
Marc:But right now, by the fucking skin of our ass, we've held on to this republic somehow and democracy as we understand it.
Marc:But I get it.
Marc:I get who you are.
Marc:And we all know now.
Marc:We all know who your friends are.
Marc:And we all know what the people that you believe in and who believe with you, what they look like and what they believe in.
Marc:and a lot of it is just complicated bullshit and garbage.
Marc:I understand.
Marc:You were fragile and vulnerable, and you let a grifting pig fuck your brain up, and you support it with internet sewage that you string together like a goddamn crown of thorns around your dumb head and justify your victimhood
Marc:as an entitled white person.
Marc:So go fuck yourself, Grandpa.
Marc:Can I get one more turkey?
Marc:Hey, um...
Marc:So look, Mike Campbell was here, as I said, in February before COVID, before the lovely Lynn Shelton passed away.
Marc:And they moved up the release of the record.
Marc:And now he's here.
Marc:But it's interesting.
Marc:Maybe you can hear a tonal difference.
Marc:But I did choose, as I said earlier, to offer my condolences as a way to open this conversation, which is something I became very familiar with being on the other side of.
Marc:But to me, it felt right because I miss Tom and God knows he must have.
Marc:So this is me talking to Mike Campbell, the member of Tom Petty's Heartbreakers.
Marc:And his band, The Dirty Knobs, has a record out, Reckless Abandon, which is available now wherever you get your music.
Marc:And this was recorded back in February before everything broke.
Marc:I'm assuming that your home studio is music-oriented.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I make records.
Marc:Do you use those in the studio to sing into?
Guest:I do.
Guest:SM7?
Guest:In fact, I use them on the record.
Guest:You did?
Guest:And it's interesting you would do that because I always used to have this posh, you know, old Neumann mic.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Draculius said, just use this for tracking.
Guest:And I liked it so much we ended up doing all the vocals on it.
Marc:On one of these?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm not as much of a nerd as I should be.
Marc:What is the difference?
Marc:Like you had a big, what are they, Neumann?
Guest:Well, the Neumann is what you call a condenser mic.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:A condenser mic picks up.
Guest:The whole room, yeah.
Guest:This is a directional mic, like it picks up right here.
Guest:And so if you're tracking with a band and you've got one of those condenser mics, it's a mess.
Guest:But if you've got this down here, all it picks up mostly is your voice so you can- Go, you can play it all live.
Guest:yeah did you guys do that with this we did mostly live yeah of course some of the vocals i did after but we tracked live with this and then i went to do the vocals and i like the sound of this so we ended up using it it makes a big difference right to track it live absolutely because i like i listen to the record and it just seems like you know all of it seems so well integrated none of it because i think you guys you guys must did you do that on the last petty record too
Marc:On the last couple of records, yeah.
Guest:Well, there's lots of ways.
Guest:Are we starting now?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Okay, there's lots of ways to make records.
Marc:Before we start, I do want to say, I'm sorry for the loss of your friend, and I wanted to say that to you.
Marc:Thank you, sir.
Guest:Caught me off guard there for a second.
Guest:I'm sorry, buddy.
Guest:I'm okay, but let's get that out of the way, yeah.
Guest:I think I'm over it, and then somebody will say something and go, oh yeah, thank you.
Guest:I'm working on it.
Marc:Okay, good, man.
Guest:It was rough.
Guest:God bless him.
Guest:But yeah, we made a lot of records together, and in lots of different ways.
Guest:And you can make a record, like with Jeff Lynne, for instance,
Guest:building up the record maybe piecemeal.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then you have a record.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you can feel that with a Jeff Wynn record.
Guest:You can, and it's a great way to do it, but it's different.
Guest:We got to the point where we had done several records like that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then we decided, you know, it's really more fun to have the guys all around and try to get that chemistry and that moment where everybody breathes.
Guest:And so Heartbreakers, the last two or three albums at our clubhouse, we just recorded there live with no headphones.
Guest:Where's that, in the hills?
Guest:It's out in the valley.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:In the middle of the valley, yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:In the industrial section.
Guest:Yeah, no headphones.
Guest:No headphones.
Guest:We had some little vocal monitors, kept them low.
Guest:No kidding.
Guest:And play in the room.
Guest:And so on the Dirty Knobbs record, that's how I really prefer to do it.
Guest:It's organic.
Guest:We're all playing live.
Guest:The solos are all live and during the take.
Guest:And the vocals, some of them are live.
Guest:Some of them I went back because I could do them a little better.
Guest:But that's the kind of record I wanted to make was everybody performing at the same time.
Marc:Yeah, and you know what's great about the record is I can hear your whole history of who you are on that thing musically and what influenced you.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:There's a lot of stuff.
Marc:I can hear Florida.
Marc:I can hear the blues.
Marc:I can hear the country.
Guest:You can take the boy out of the South, but you can't take the South out of the boy.
Marc:I guess not, man.
Marc:There's like that one cut on there with the Southern boy one with that...
Marc:I fucking love that, man.
Marc:Thank you.
Guest:That's one of my favorite tracks.
Guest:Great drummer.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Who is that guy?
Guest:Matt Log.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What's his story?
Guest:His story is he's played a lot of sessions.
Guest:He played on a Alanis Morissette hit.
Guest:You ought to know many years ago.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he was a session player.
Guest:I didn't really know who he was.
Guest:And he did some touring with Slash for a while there.
Guest:oh really so he's used to playing some big gigs yeah and uh he just like all these guys the dirty noms just appeared i didn't audition a band i just met some met the guitar player he knew the drummer where's the guitar player from he's from la he's a
Guest:Been around a while, guy?
Guest:Beverly Hills kid.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, he's been around.
Guest:Studio guy or what?
Guest:Well, sort of.
Guest:He had a band back in the 80s that didn't happen.
Guest:But mostly he's just... He didn't do a lot of sessions.
Guest:He's just a player.
Guest:He's just a good player.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I met him at a session.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:But...
Guest:We just headed off.
Guest:Like I said, the four guys, they were the first four guys that showed up.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:All the personalities were just right.
Guest:I mean, how lucky am I?
Marc:Yeah, that is pretty lucky.
Marc:But you didn't know, you'd never really played with them before?
Marc:No.
Marc:That's wild.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So the other one, I want to ask you some gear questions on Don't Wait.
Marc:Was that P90?
Guest:No.
Guest:No.
Guest:Don't Wait was the 59 Les Paul with the humbuckers on the bass pickup.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Maybe we'll even the tone all the way off.
Guest:On the bass.
Guest:Bass pickup.
Marc:So that's where you got that.
Guest:That cream sort of tone.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The 59.
Guest:My only 59, yeah.
Marc:You've only got one?
Guest:Well, yeah.
Marc:I could barely get that one.
Marc:It's crazy, right?
Marc:It's insane.
Marc:I didn't know anything about this yet, because I'm not a real guitar nerd, but I'm a big Peter Green fan.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:And I don't know... I didn't know that the 59 was a thing until recently, but it's really a thing.
Guest:It's the Stradivarius of electric guitar.
Marc:What makes it that?
Guest:You know, I think it was just that year, the wood...
Guest:The neck was maybe a little bit thicker than the next year.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:The pick, the alloy, the metal.
Marc:You got the Sunburst one?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's the one, right?
Marc:That's the one Walsh has.
Guest:There's a story behind how I got that.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I'll keep it short.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:We got time.
Guest:They're ridiculously expensive.
Guest:So the first time... Jason Isbell just bought one, and I know how much it cost.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Well, we won't get into the numbers, but it's out there.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:It's sick.
Guest:It's wrong.
Marc:It's as expensive as a car gets when it's not attached to a name.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:Right, you know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So there's a guy from Hollywood named Albert who used to have a store called Guitars R Us.
Guest:And we would get guitars from him.
Guest:And so he had collected a few 59s over the years.
Guest:And he called me up.
Guest:uh 10 years ago yeah i said i've got a 1959 les paul yeah and um i said well you know i've already got you know you should try this one i'll leave it at your house for a few days and if you don't like it he's trying to sell it to you 10 years ago before they were cool or what uh right before they were catching on right big way but they were already like right yeah yeah
Guest:So I played it for, and I was getting ready to go on tour.
Guest:I played it for a few days, and I thought, you know what?
Guest:This is not jangly.
Guest:I'm used to.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:So I don't know that I need this, especially for that kind of money.
Guest:So I said, you know, I'm going on tour.
Guest:Thanks anyway.
Guest:And I gave it back to him.
Guest:My wife calls me about a week later.
Guest:She goes, you know what?
Guest:I think you should get that.
Guest:If nothing else, for an investment.
Guest:You know, she's one of those.
Guest:And so I said, oh, okay.
Guest:Call him back.
Guest:He'd sold it.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:So flash forward five years later, the one I have now, same story.
Guest:Hey, Mike, I got this one.
Guest:It's even better than the other one.
Guest:Take it for a few days, and if you like it.
Guest:So I did, and by now, the number was five times what the other one was.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Which I did not have on me at the time, but once again, I was getting ready to go on tour.
Guest:And this guitar I fell in love with, so I said, look, Albert, what if I give you half now and half at the end of the tour?
Guest:Half.
Guest:So we worked out a deal.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He trusted you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so that's the one I have now.
Guest:I used it on Mojo and Hypnotic Eye and Tom loved it.
Guest:We started making records around that sound.
Guest:Around that guitar sound.
Guest:And that's on that song you mentioned.
Guest:That's the one on Don't Wait.
Guest:Don't Wait is the thick...
Guest:Les Paul on the bass pickup, the old Eric Clapton trick where you turn the tone all the way up, all the way off, bass pickup all the way up, and the amp cranked up, and it gets that kind of woman tone, they call it.
Marc:Oh, is that what it is?
Guest:And that's what I was doing.
Guest:I was trying to emulate that sound on that song.
Guest:Oh, that's a trip, man.
Guest:Well spotted.
Marc:Yeah, and you got that through, what amps are you playing through?
Guest:Well, mostly little Fenders.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Fender Deluxes.
Guest:Like that thing there?
Guest:I got a 53 Deluxe in there.
Guest:Those are beautiful.
Guest:We used that.
Guest:On that particular album, though, I was using this Duesenberg amp that they made, which is relatively small, that was modeled after that.
Guest:And you got to crank them, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, to get the tone, you gotta... Yeah, you push it up there.
Guest:Until it gets sweet.
Marc:But it's sort of wild to me that you were so used to jangly guitars.
Marc:You know, like, what was that?
Marc:You said 10 years ago?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That when you bought that one?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, that was sort of the... Because I identify you guys... I connect you with Fenders and Rickenbackers.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:I mean, that was the trip.
Marc:All the way back, like when you started...
Guest:That was the stuff that we loved, that we grew up on.
Guest:Like, we come from Florida, right?
Guest:Yeah, what was going on in Florida?
Guest:What year, man?
Guest:This would have been 72.
Guest:72?
Guest:And it was right when the Allman Brothers were happening and Lynyrd Skynyrd and all those bands were playing Les Pauls.
Guest:Did you go see the Allman Brothers?
Guest:I never saw the Allman Brothers.
Guest:Skynyrd?
Guest:I saw them.
Guest:Skynyrd, we played some gigs with them.
Marc:Back in Florida?
Guest:On the back of a truck.
Guest:Yeah, back in Jacksonville and stuff.
Guest:And they were nobody yet either.
Marc:How were they as guys?
Guest:I didn't get to talk to them much.
Guest:Really?
Guest:But we played some gigs with them and said hi to them, and they were friendly.
Guest:Were they good then?
Guest:They're from Jacksonville, which is where I'm from.
Guest:Yeah, they were great.
Guest:They sound just like they do now.
Guest:It's kind of crazy, right?
Guest:You just have it, I guess, at an early age.
Guest:In the back of trucks, you played with them?
Guest:You said?
Guest:Yeah, it was a flatbed truck set up in a field.
Guest:You know, and there was like 200 hippies there.
Guest:It was a festival?
Guest:It was a so-called love inn, I guess.
Marc:Oh, yeah, back in the 70s?
Guest:But it was funky, but it was beautiful.
Guest:you know yeah yeah but to get back to my point yeah um a lot of bands in florida around that time were going after the allman brothers sound like two three guitars thick yeah right and we never really liked that we were inspired more by the beatles the stones animals kinks the bright jangly bright you know really kinks were played in there early on kinks are a major influence yeah really
Guest:So when the Heartbreakers started making records, we had Rickenbackers and Fenders mostly.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And that became the sound that we were used to, the bright, jangly sound.
Guest:So the Les Paul was another world for me.
Guest:I had to get used to it, but then I found a way to do it.
Marc:Oh, that's wild.
Marc:But it took a while, huh?
Marc:A little while, yeah.
Marc:Not too long.
Marc:But I remember listening to...
Marc:Like the first Heartbreakers record.
Marc:It's so weird to think about these records because I've listened to that first Heartbreakers record thousands of times.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:All my life.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:I listened to it.
Marc:I remember I got it in high school.
Marc:But it's strange that my favorite songs on there are not like Mystery Man.
Marc:What a great fucking song that is.
Guest:And that's a one take, yeah.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And who wrote that, you and Tom?
Guest:Tom wrote that song.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I wrote the guitar.
Guest:That guitar riff is great, man.
Guest:It's like straight up country riff almost.
Guest:That was my Fender broadcaster.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Tom played his strap.
Marc:Oh, you had an old broadcaster?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that was my main guitar.
Guest:But that song is a perfect example.
Guest:Tom had the chords.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I just went doo-doo-doo-doo-doo.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And it turned into that song.
Guest:Very Van Morrison influenced.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Sure, but you let those open strings ring.
Marc:Yeah, we just stumbled on that.
Marc:Yeah, and also Wild One Forever.
Marc:I fucking love that song.
Guest:I do too, thank you.
Guest:He sings the shit out of it too.
Guest:It's a real teenage kind of song.
Marc:It is, because I was a teenager.
Guest:Well, there you go.
Marc:I just sit there thinking about the girl that I couldn't get.
Marc:I'm still a teenager in heart.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah, well, you gotta, you gotta be.
Marc:So, like, moving through all that stuff, I mean, did you guys... Wait, you thinking about it?
Guest:Yeah, it's great.
Guest:Good memories, yeah.
Marc:Well, yeah, so it's always the songs for me that, like, of course, American Girl, but, I mean, all the other ones, that was my first... Rockin' Around With You, too, that guitar.
Marc:That was crazy, man, that sound.
Marc:Like, what was that?
Guest:You remember?
Guest:Yeah, Rockin' Around With You was the first song I ever wrote with Tom, and it was my riff.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Oh, right, right, right, right.
Guest:The broadcaster.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he wrote those great words to it that we were off and running.
Marc:Oh, man.
Marc:And so before that, though, when you guys were just hanging around in Florida, like I know you guys did the Mud Crutch.
Marc:That's when you started with those guys?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Tom had a band called Mud Crutch.
Yeah.
Marc:And then I joined.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But were you just out there, like, I remember seeing the documentary, and you sort of got captured as this guy, like, you kind of lived somewhere in the country.
Marc:It'd be like you were some kind of guitar hermit.
Marc:Kind of, yeah.
Marc:Some sort of young wizard.
Guest:Well.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:the wizard part but yeah i had a house out in the country with my drummer randall marsh and i had seen mud crutch play at the college yeah and they were kind of a burrito brothers type band they were doing country numbers country rock with harmonies yeah and until then i'd been in like blues type bands and then so my band broke up and i told the drummer i said they're auditioning a drummer
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you ought to try them out.
Guest:So, he invited them out to our little farmhouse.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I was in the back room with my short hair and my cutoffs.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the story goes that he auditioned and they said, oh, we just lost our guitar player.
Guest:Do you know any guitar players?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, there's this guy in the back room and I had a Japanese guitar, a little
Guest:$60 Goya and so I come walking out with that and they looked at me and you could see their face go oh no how do we get out of this you know I'm stuck with this guy the rest of the afternoon yeah and they go so um where you know you want to play something what do you know I said well how about Johnny be good sure you know no no no no no no we played the song and we got to the end of it and Tom goes I don't know who you are but you're in my band and that's this happened just like that it was destiny and
Marc:it was on johnny b good johnny b good i think that's something that everybody knows you know i knew it really well that's all i know i'd studied chuck berry you had so i think it impressed them that i knew knew the right way to do it that's the interesting thing about that thing about chuck berry because you know when i the more i pay attention to hearing you say that and also like seeing that doc with keith you know when you know keith did the chuck right
Marc:Like, well, and I'm a Keith freak, but, you know, it's not as simple as like, there's a bounce to it.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Well, he stole that from Louis Jordan, the swing band.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:It was a horn kind of thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he made it.
Guest:It wasn't Jimmy Johnson?
Guest:Well, he was in the band, but those lines, a lot of them.
Guest:I've read, I've read that he got from the Louis Jordan swing band.
Guest:No kidding, yeah.
Guest:So they have a swing.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But he bounces on that guitar.
Marc:It's a weird fucking rhythm, man.
Guest:It's the rhythm.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He found it, yeah.
Guest:Did it take you a while to get that?
Guest:I'm still working on that.
Marc:Right?
Guest:Because, you know, that's a good point.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because a lot of people play Chuck Berry and they don't play it right.
Guest:No.
Guest:They play the notes.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But it's all like this.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And his thing is like...
Guest:yeah it's almost like a shuffle and a straight beat together it's a weird bounce when they meet in the middle that's the chuck berry magic yeah and that's hard to do dylan knew how to do that oh did he yeah but that's interesting you would bring that up because that's you can tell somebody really really studied again they they don't play it straight just straight they play it with a little swing right and bounce to it dylan could do it yeah he knew the difference
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Would you talk to him about it?
Guest:Yeah, we did.
Guest:We did.
Guest:You talked specifically about it?
Guest:Well, I'll tell you a story about that.
Guest:We were in rehearsal and he was on electric guitar.
Guest:For what?
Guest:The tour?
Guest:For the tour that we were going to do with him.
Guest:And we were playing some Chuck Berry-ish thing.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And I don't know if there's no technical, but most of the bands went junk and junk and junk and junk and junk.
Marc:Right.
Marc:The bar band way to do it.
Marc:Straight.
Marc:The straight beat.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Which is okay.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:And then Dylan was playing the other junk, junk, junk, junk, junk against it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And at first I was thinking like, that's wrong.
Guest:He's not playing with us.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then we stopped and he goes, I'm looking for that middle point.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:If I play this and you play that and we meet in the middle, that's where it happens.
Guest:And he taught me that.
Marc:That was like something you learned.
Marc:You're well into your career, man.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I'd never heard it explained quite that way, but then it made sense to me.
Marc:Well, that's what I realized a few years ago is that with blues or with that kind of rock and roll, any bar band can play it.
Marc:That's right, right?
Marc:Anybody can do it, which is the problem and the beauty of it.
Marc:But in order to own it, you got to find your source.
Marc:And if you don't go back and really figure out what the fuck Chuck is doing, where are you going to start from?
Guest:Well, it's a mysterious thing, swing.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Yeah, it is, right?
Guest:You need a drummer that can do it.
Guest:True.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The whole band has to do it for it to work, and it's even hard to explain, but you know it when you feel it.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, well, I just remember that Petty song that went down swinging.
Yeah.
Marc:I'm a big three-chord guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I like three chords, too.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Three chords and the truth, right?
Marc:That's exactly right.
Marc:That's what country music is.
Marc:Did you watch that documentary?
Marc:I haven't seen it yet.
Marc:Dude, you've got to watch it.
Marc:I'm dying to see it, though.
Marc:It's crazy.
Guest:I hear it, yeah.
Marc:It all goes back to Jimmy Rogers and the Carter family.
Marc:That's where he starts.
Marc:Perfect.
Marc:And you work with Cash too, right?
Marc:I did.
Marc:Which on the first one, on the first American one?
Guest:Yeah, quite a couple of them.
Guest:The first one and the Heartbreakers did a record with him too.
Guest:Oh, that's right.
Guest:With Rick Rubin-Dusing.
Guest:But I spent a lot of time with him and that was one of the greatest times of my life really.
Marc:Well, you seem to be sort of like pick stuff up and always open to sort of new shit and learning.
Marc:What did you take from him?
Marc:Oh, so much.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Mostly, what a beautiful human being he was.
Guest:I could tell you a story to demonstrate that.
Guest:When I was growing up, my dad...
Guest:was in the Air Force, he'd come home and lay on the couch and he'd put on either Elvis or Johnny Cash.
Guest:And he'd lay on the couch and just zone out.
Guest:And I would go, what is he hearing?
Guest:There's something going on here.
Guest:So that was my first introduction to that music.
Guest:So when we were on tour, the Heartbreakers were on tour in Europe and the Highwaymen were in the same town as us.
Guest:I think it was Copenhagen.
Marc:So that's Chris Christopherson, Waylon, Johnny and Willie?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:And I had never met Johnny before, but we went backstage before the show and were introduced to everybody.
Guest:And Johnny was sitting there.
Guest:Of course, the first thing out of my mouth is, Johnny, you know, my dad played your records all the time.
Guest:I love those records.
Guest:And I said, my favorite song is Don't Take Your Guns to Town.
Guest:I don't know if you know that song or not.
Guest:And he said, oh, yeah, we're not doing that tonight.
Guest:I'm really sorry.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So they get up in the middle of the show.
Guest:All of a sudden he goes, I'd like to do this song we don't normally do.
Guest:And he played that song for me.
Guest:So that's Johnny Cash.
Guest:That's him in a nutshell.
Guest:Beautiful human being.
Guest:Very generous.
Marc:And how did it make you cry?
Marc:Kind of, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:yeah and we just uh we were really close and uh he treated me really nice and uh of course musically he was just inspiring and uh it's great to be around him it's interesting because like you know for a guy because a guy like that who who is such a rock in terms of you know how you know he handled like how he was musically like you know you you he was essentially johnny cash
Marc:But somehow or another, you could back him and it would all make sense.
Marc:That's how big a personality he was, I guess, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're never going to overcome Johnny Cash.
Guest:No.
Guest:Right?
Guest:No, when he would walk in the room, it was Johnny's room.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was one of those guys and it was great.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:And he was so kind and open and talented.
Marc:How much did country play into your early life outside of your old man and Johnny Cash?
Marc:I mean, were you a country guy?
Guest:No, I was always kind of rock and roll.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The Beatles, the Stones.
Guest:But I also went back and dug up Muddy Waters, Helen Wolfe.
Guest:You had, right.
Guest:Hank Williams.
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:I grew up right at the end of that stuff, and I soaked it up.
Guest:You got to go back for the muddy.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, well, I did.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, there's no other way to go.
Guest:That's the only way it's available.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And, you know, it was a tribute to a lot of the English groups that called attention.
Guest:They brought it, man.
Guest:These are black artists in America.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You're overlooking.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Jimmy Reed.
Guest:Jimmy.
Guest:Alan Wolf.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Willie Dixon.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Muddy Waters.
Guest:John Lee Hooker.
Marc:You did a John Lee Hooker groove on this record.
Guest:Bo Diddley.
Guest:Bo Diddley.
Guest:All those guys.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you did the Don't Knock the Boogie.
Guest:Don't Knock the Boogie.
Guest:It's like straight up hooker, man.
Guest:Straight for it, yeah.
Guest:Right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did you ever play with that guy?
Guest:Yes, I did.
Guest:A couple of times.
Guest:He sat in with us.
Guest:Really?
Guest:What an amazing guy.
Guest:Where?
Guest:Up in the Bay Area?
Guest:At the Fillmore.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:We did a stand up there back in the late 90s.
Guest:He came up.
Marc:With the Heartbreakers?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you guys just walk in, right?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:One chord.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just follow John.
Guest:I'll tell you a great story about John Lee Hooker.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:My wife and I, you know, the Golden Bear in Huntington Beach used to be this great club.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And my wife and I went down to see him, John Lee Hooker.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he had a pickup band.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And, you know, we're sitting there, and it's good.
Guest:And they get into the boogie thing, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they start doing this boogie.
Guest:Oh, no, no.
Guest:And I go, yeah, this is so great.
Guest:We're here with him.
Guest:And it went on for like 10 minutes.
Guest:And then it got real quiet, just still grooving, and he started going, I'm the boogeyman.
Guest:You know, for another two minutes, I'm the boogeyman.
Guest:That's all he said.
Guest:And then it got real quiet and he looked at the audience and he goes, I started it.
Guest:and I just wanted to fall under my chair.
Guest:Yes, you did, sir.
Guest:And thank you for reminding me.
Guest:He did, man.
Marc:What a cool guy, yeah.
Marc:I talked to Buddy Guy, and he's got some great stories about Chicago and about those dudes and about how people ... It's so amazing to hear those stories about those guys that invented that shit.
Guest:He started it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Did you ever listen to that hooker?
Guest:How'd you like to be the guy that started the boogie?
Marc:He did, and no one can do it.
Marc:And you can't argue.
Marc:You're right.
Marc:Yeah, that's your thing, man.
Marc:You got it.
Marc:Like, did you ever listen to that hooker and heat record?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because that's an amazing record where he's playing, and he's got canned heat there, and he's got that guy, Rob, what's his name?
Marc:Wilson, the main dude.
Marc:They're all like blues nuts, right?
Marc:Yeah, Wilson.
Marc:Yeah, Al Wilson.
Marc:Al Wilson.
Marc:Is it Al Wilson?
Marc:Al Wilson, yeah.
Marc:And he kept saying, I can't shake you guys.
Marc:You must have studied my records.
Marc:You know, because you got that guy on the harp going.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:They were a cool band.
Guest:I love that shit.
Guest:Have you seen the Paul Butterfield documentary?
Guest:No.
Guest:Was it on Netflix?
Guest:You would love it.
Guest:It is.
Guest:I found it the other day.
Guest:And it's got a lot of footage from Chicago with Muddy and Howlin' Wolf and Mike Bloomfield, which you hardly ever see.
Guest:Whoa.
Marc:them starting out you would love it he's a 59 gibson guy right bloomfield and a stratt guy he started with a telly a telly and then later on and he moved up to the les paul yeah but that's a great documentary i've got to check that out because i just watched i just got the criterion channel and i watched some of the outtakes from the newport folk festival and they had a paul butterfield run yeah yeah
Marc:And like, you know, I never, it was so funny because like, I'm watching it and he's playing the harp like, you know.
Marc:Upside down.
Marc:But he's playing it out here.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Like out here.
Marc:And I'm like, why is he so far away from the mic?
Marc:And he kind of builds it up.
Marc:And then the last verse, he leans into that bullet mic.
Marc:And he just, it was all built.
Marc:It was a trick.
Guest:I learned something about him too.
Guest:You know, the harp is usually low notes and high notes.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:He plays the other way around.
Guest:Really?
Guest:So he plays it upside down?
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:Huh, I wonder if that's how he learned.
Guest:That's probably just how he picked it up and learned that one.
Marc:Who's playing on your record, you?
Guest:The harmonica?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's fun, right?
Guest:Yeah, harmonica, suck and blow.
Guest:Yeah, man.
Guest:I can't play like Paul Butterfield, but I can get a few notes in there.
Marc:But that's the thing about, that's the other thing I noticed, I realized about music recently, and I just talked to Kathy Valentine.
Marc:from the go-go's yeah yeah she's uh sweet she's really she's got a new book and it's it's nice but but we're just talking about how uh you know like it's not about virtuosity it's about you know you coming through your shit that how you it's how you play it tone it's just uh you know it's the point she made stevie ray vaughn she's from austin he's from austin okay and
Marc:And Stevie Ray, they were talking about Jimmy Vaughn, who's great.
Marc:Love Jimmy.
Marc:And Stevie Ray said, when I play, I put everything I have into it.
Marc:When my brother plays, he's putting about 10% in it.
Marc:Because it's a choice, you know, because that's where his sound is.
Guest:I see that, yeah.
Marc:Isn't that wild?
Marc:Like, you know, it's not about, like, we were just talking about harmonica.
Marc:You don't have to be Paul Butterfield to sound like you feel something through an instrument, right?
Guest:True, true.
Guest:The feeling, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But like when you were when you were starting out, though, you know, your your idols were who, you know, we discussed some of your heroes.
Marc:But I mean, you what is it that because you play a specific way and you leave a lot of space and you're very tasteful and you're not showing off and you know how to adapt and, you know, you can clearly tell who you are.
Marc:I mean, did you make decisions early on to not do certain things and do certain things?
Guest:I didn't make any decisions.
Guest:I just learned from the records I liked, you know.
Marc:And who were the biggest ones that taught you how to play guitar over and over again?
Guest:Well, the first things I heard were Luther Perkins and Scotty Moore.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Elvis' guy?
Guest:But then when I got to my age and the Beatles and all those British bands came along.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just was gone on that, you know?
Guest:And a lot of those songs are three-minute songs.
Guest:They have guitar parts, but they don't have long solos.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's just how I thought you do it, you know?
Guest:And that's what I wanted to emulate.
Marc:Did you like George?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I loved George.
Guest:And you got to work with him, too.
Guest:I did.
Guest:You and Tom and George.
Guest:I was blessed to... The Wilburys?
Guest:Yeah, I was around for some of that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And did you work with him other than that?
Guest:I did a concert with George at Albert Hall once.
Guest:Really?
Guest:He asked me to play a concert with him.
Guest:And we did a lot of, you know, he worked on Full Moon Fever a little bit, so he was over around that.
Marc:The Jeff Wynn record.
Guest:Yeah, George is a whole other book.
Guest:I mean, I could tell you what a wonderful guy he was.
Guest:But a great influence guitar-wise, his guitar parts.
Guest:And I think when I play guitar, I try to emulate those guys.
Guest:You know, Keith and George Harrison.
Guest:Keith Richards?
Guest:Keith Richards.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And all the bands, the Kinks, Animals, their guitar parts were really simple, but melodic, and they don't get in the way of the song.
Guest:They do a job, and then they allow the song to blossom.
Marc:Well, that's interesting to separate those two, because I'm a huge Keith guy.
Marc:I'm a George guy to a degree, but I don't know that I really can understand or appreciate specifically what he brings to the guitar that makes him who he is.
Guest:What is that?
Guest:George?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, he's a melodic player.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he's got a little bit of Chet Atkins finger picking here and there.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:And he's just a feel player.
Guest:He plays with a great feel.
Guest:There's a sadness to it, too.
Guest:A sadness, a soul.
Guest:He plays with soul, especially when he started playing slide.
Guest:He found a whole new voice for himself.
Guest:And he was just a genius at taking those songs, those Lyndon McCartney songs, and finding bits for it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like, for instance, that song, You Can't Do That.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He told me one day that they were recording that.
Guest:And he didn't have that guitar part.
Guest:And they had the chords and they said, okay, we're going to do this track now.
Guest:George, do something.
Guest:And so he just went.
Guest:Which is the lick.
Guest:It makes the song.
Guest:And that's the kind of player he was.
Guest:He could come up with just the right piece that fit the song.
Marc:That's amazing.
Guest:And that's a genius.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And all those songs, if you listen to the guitar closely, it's pretty brilliant playing.
Guest:Yeah, it's kind of, no one sounds like that.
Guest:No, and it fits the song.
Marc:And those ones that he wrote early on to me were just haunting, like Don't Bother Me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like that song.
Marc:Great song, yeah.
Marc:Right?
Marc:And did you watch that doc, the Lennon thing, the Above Us Only Sky thing?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Did you see that moment where George comes in and he's got this light and Lennon's working something on the piano out and he just looks at George for guitar support and it was like nothing was said and it was right there.
Marc:And it was so moving to me.
Marc:It was so clearly symbiotic.
Guest:that he completely trusted George in that moment.
Guest:Well, that's his genius, George's genius.
Guest:Another example, which I read, And I Love Her.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Dong, dong, dong, dong.
Guest:They didn't have that.
Guest:That was George.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:George came up with that.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:So, like, what was your relationship with Tom along those lines in terms of songwriting?
Guest:Well, it was telepathic, like you said.
Guest:There was not ever much discussion.
Guest:We just had a... I had a...
Guest:affinity for him and he had an affinity for me and he would usually write songs on his own when he did and come in on acoustic or just rhythm and I would just sit down like you mentioned Mystery Man you know he started playing I don't know I just knew what he wanted and I was able to make it work with him
Marc:yeah we had that thing it was beautiful yeah it's a once in a lifetime thing we had yeah man and and so like in all the songs so usually what would happen is he'd have it on the acoustic and you guys would build it out he would usually have chords and rhythm and sing and yeah right and then we would join in right we would join in and it always seemed to find a place yeah and i talked i talked to ben mon a while back he's sort of like a wizard of kind of a kind huh absolutely yeah
Marc:It's sort of interesting because when I listen to your solo with the Dirty Knob solo, there's something about that record, maybe like Mojo, maybe one of the later records, the Heartbreakers, but there's something about how you seem to cover, it's almost like the band.
Marc:This is American music in all its ways.
Marc:Do you dig what I'm saying?
Guest:I know, but I didn't think about that.
Guest:No, I know, but you know what I'm saying?
Guest:I know what you're saying.
Guest:That's a nice compliment.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Because I think Tom Petty and you guys, the Tom Petty songbook is like a fucking classic American thing, man.
Guest:Well, thank you.
Guest:Right?
Guest:I'm proud of those songs, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, you are?
Guest:Good.
Guest:And I think that's why the Heartbreakers lasted.
Guest:One reason they lasted so long is the songs are good and they hold up over time.
Marc:Yeah, for sure, man.
Marc:Oh, definitely.
Marc:But now when you go out with... How did the Fleetwood Mac trip happen?
Guest:Well, Tom passed away, and I took some time, and then I realized, I'd always thought my band, The Dirty Knobs, that if the Heartbreakers ever take a hiatus, that's what I want to do.
Guest:I was at the second to the last show, by the way, at the Bowl.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Well, good.
Guest:You got a piece of that list.
Guest:Yeah, I did.
Guest:So, I took some time to grieve a little bit, and then I started working on the Knobbs record, and I had it like three quarters or more done, and then I got the phone call from Mick one day.
Guest:Had you met him before?
Guest:I had met him, yeah, I'd done a session with him once, but I didn't know him that well.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I know Stevie really well.
Guest:Anyway, he called up and said, you know, I've been listening to your catalog and we want you to join the band.
Guest:It's not an audition.
Guest:We want you to join the band.
Guest:So I immediately thought, okay, we're joining the band.
Guest:We're going to make a record.
Guest:And I said, well, it starts with the songs.
Guest:He said, oh, well...
Guest:we have some tour dates first we have some tour commitments okay tricking you into the tour well not tricking me i was fine with it sure that's just the way my mind works right let's make a record so uh we i put that on the back burner which is fine yeah and i said okay uh the tour ended up being a year and a half and god bless the knobs they waited for me yeah and so when that was over i went right back to work on the record and you know in a week or two i finished it
Marc:But like when you go, when you're stepping into those songs, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, that's a heavy catalog.
Marc:That's some big shit.
Guest:Yeah, great songs.
Marc:Big songs.
Marc:Now, and Lindsey's a very specific type of player.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:So I didn't see any of the shows.
Marc:What do you do?
Guest:Do you do his licks or what?
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:Well, you have to.
Guest:On those songs, it was a challenge for me because I wasn't used to doing that.
Guest:I was used to playing my own songs and things.
Marc:Playing Tom Petty songs too.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, heartbreaker songs.
Guest:Yeah, songs that I came up with.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:So here I was, you know, like you take any of those songs, like Dreams, it needs those guitar lines or the song doesn't work.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I took the challenge on and I dug in and learned them.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And played them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And in other places and other songs where they wanted something, me to step out, I could add my own thing.
Guest:But I looked at it like my job is to honor these songs.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And to honor this band, which I love, and do the best I can to recreate those guitar parts the best I can.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And that's what I did.
Marc:And did you have to figure out the equipment and shit?
Marc:No.
Guest:I used my amps and my guitars, but I did have to study the records quite a bit and really dig into, what's he doing there?
Guest:What is that note?
Guest:Oh, I get it now.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Now, when you do that for someone like him, I assume you respect him as a guitar player.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:When you kind of have to figure out someone else's shit at this point in your life, were you sort of like, wow, that's interesting that he made that decision?
Guest:Well, you know, it's very similar to when I first started learning guitar.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I listened to a Beatles record.
Guest:What's he doing?
Guest:Right.
Guest:In the course of that challenge, you learn things that you can take from it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I had the same experience with that.
Guest:I looked at, like, or say if the Heartbreakers were going to learn a cover that had a guitar part in it, I'd go to learn it so I could at least respect how it started.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I found it was a very interesting process to study those songs and figure out what was going on on the guitar, and I learned a lot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because he's a different kind of guitar player than you.
Guest:He is, yeah.
Guest:In some ways we're similar, though.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like...
Guest:Say, go your own way at the end.
Guest:The soaring guitar.
Guest:That kind of stuff, we play in a similar way, sort of.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And so those things were easy.
Guest:Some of them were intricate finger picking and little lines he was doing.
Guest:Took a little work for me to pick it out and figure out what was going on.
Guest:But I think I got it down pretty good.
Marc:So are you going to make a record with them?
Marc:Maybe.
Guest:Oh, you don't know?
Guest:I don't know yet.
Guest:I know we're going to take a year and a half off and then see what they want to do.
Guest:He's a hell of a drummer, isn't he?
Guest:Oh, that rhythm section?
Guest:I loved that every night.
Guest:John and Mick.
Marc:Were you a Peter Green fan?
Guest:Yeah, I liked Peter Green.
Guest:I liked Paige and Beck and Clapton and Mick Taylor maybe more.
Guest:But Peter Green was definitely up there.
Guest:You ever played with Mick Taylor?
Guest:I haven't, but I would love to.
Guest:I love his playing.
Guest:Yeah, I haven't heard him in a while.
Guest:Oh, he's good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He has that feel.
Guest:Yeah, oh yeah, he's slippery, man.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:So when you, okay, like I didn't realize until I was kind of poking around doing research, because me and my buddy Dean were talking about Don Henley, and you made some big songs with him.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean...
Marc:Two.
Marc:Yeah, the Boys of Summer, right?
Marc:Right.
Guest:And now what was the process of writing with Don Henley?
Guest:Well, it's the same as writing with Tom.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:What I was doing with Tom was I would put music together and make a demo with all the instruments and show it to him.
Guest:And if he liked it, he would start singing over it and come up with a song.
Guest:And it was the same with Don.
Guest:I had the piece of music.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I went over to his house with a little cassette player and sat down at the desk.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He listened in total silence.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then I said, okay.
Guest:And I left.
Guest:And on the way home, the phone rang.
Guest:He said, I wrote the great song to your music.
Guest:I can't wait to do it.
Guest:It happened just like that.
Marc:But how does a call like that happen?
Marc:Why are you over there at Don's?
Guest:Well, Jimmy Iovine.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:Jimmy Iovine had heard that demo of mine.
Guest:And he called me and said, you know, Don Henley's looking for songs.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I said, what kind of song does he want?
Guest:He said, an image maker.
Yeah.
Marc:Interesting.
Marc:But you're already well on your way with the Heartbreakers, right?
Guest:Oh, yeah, we were already deep.
Marc:And Iving was your guy, right?
Guest:He produced Damn the Torpedoes and a couple of albums in that era with us.
Guest:Our first mainstream commercial breakthrough was produced by Jimmy Iving.
Guest:He made the huge thing.
Guest:Damn the Torpedoes, yeah, with Refugee and Here Comes McGirl and all those songs.
Guest:That was Jimmy?
Guest:Jimmy Iving, yeah.
Marc:And then, oh, so Dan, okay.
Marc:Two more albums after that.
Guest:Was that your fourth record or your third?
Guest:Our third record.
Guest:Okay, so that was the big record.
Guest:It changed everything, yeah, for us, yeah.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And so he's sort of like, yeah, hey, Don's working.
Marc:What do you got going?
Guest:You got anything sitting on the- Well, he's an interesting guy.
Guest:He's brilliant, because he also took, we had Stop Dragging My Heart Around, which I had written with Tom.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we had cut it and we weren't so sure about it.
Guest:And he said, I think that could be a duet.
Guest:He just happened to be doing a record with Stevie Nicks.
Guest:That's how that happened.
Guest:So he just took this over here, put this over here.
Marc:That's how that happened.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Are you guys still friends?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, we have a deep connection.
Marc:Your first two records were on Shelter Records?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Was Leon around?
Guest:Leon was around.
Guest:He didn't play on those records, but it was his producer, Denny Cordell, who produced us, and so we were around his house.
Marc:How did that happen with Shelter?
Marc:Because what I remember when I was a kid, when the first Tom Petty record come out, it didn't really catch on here until later, right?
Marc:Right.
Marc:It was like England was a big deal, and then it came back around, you know what I mean?
Guest:Exactly, yeah.
Guest:That's how it happened.
Marc:But with Shelter Records, did you know anything about Shelter Records?
Guest:No.
Guest:We were in Florida and we made a demo and sent it out.
Guest:And I think maybe London Records called back and then Shelter called back.
Guest:And Tom liked Denny Cordell.
Guest:We all did.
Guest:We just hit it off.
Guest:And so it was his label.
Guest:We were going to go out to California.
Guest:We stopped at Tulsa on the way where Leon had a studio and met Denny and did a little recording.
Guest:Then we went on out to L.A.
Guest:And Denny took us under his wing and helped us get started.
Marc:The first couple, huh?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He was essential.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:You learned a lot from that guy?
Guest:A lot.
Guest:He was great at saying, well, you know, this song, not so good.
Guest:This song, go more in this direction.
Guest:He had an overall view.
Guest:He wasn't a musician, but he knew songs, and he knew style, and he could tell which direction we should go in.
Guest:He helped us that way a lot.
Marc:I know that Leon Russell, he brought in...
Marc:that later freddie king shit you know and jj kale jj kale all that stuff it was a great time dwight twilley was on our label all right right it was a really interesting time a lot of stuff was going on and then what i mean like i remember i don't i'm sure you've covered this shit before but i mean obviously but like what makes the big shift i mean jimmy comes in but you guys were between labels or he took you how does that happen well it's a long story but we were on shelter records yeah
Guest:And they were having some financial trouble and they sold their label to ABC Records without telling us.
Guest:And then ABC sold to MCA without telling us.
Guest:So we went, wait a second, you know, you can't do that.
Guest:We don't want to be on that label.
Guest:We're not going to record.
Guest:For MCA.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So we did a lawsuit tour to make money because we weren't going to, we were playing hardball.
Guest:We're not going to record until you fix our deal.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because they had us under the old deal, which was kind of a shit deal.
Guest:Yeah, right.
Guest:I won't go into details.
Marc:Right, the Creedence Queerwater revival deal.
Guest:We wanted to renegotiate a fair deal and then we'll record.
Guest:And eventually they came around.
Guest:And then around that time, we need a producer and we'd heard Patti Smith's record, Because the Night.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:We said, oh, Jimmy Iving produced that.
Guest:Let's get him.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:So he came in and got us that sound, and we made that third record.
Guest:It's so interesting, man.
Guest:That's how stuff happens.
Guest:You just, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, you fought for something, though.
Marc:It's destiny, but you fought for something.
Marc:You could have gotten lost.
Guest:Yeah, we fought for it, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, but you guys stood up for yourselves.
Marc:True.
Guest:Do you guys have any relationship with Springsteen?
Guest:I know him.
Guest:I produced an album for his wife, Patty, back in the 80s that I'm really proud of.
Guest:Most people haven't heard it, but it's a really good record.
Marc:Sweet record?
Guest:Yeah, and we have a good relationship, but we're not friends.
Guest:We don't hang out or keep in touch.
Marc:Because I think for me, in terms of great American music of the last 40 years, Springsteen and Patty, man, all the way.
Guest:Yeah, we got lumped in with him for a while there.
Marc:You did?
Marc:But you're totally different, man.
Marc:Well, it's okay, though.
Marc:Yeah, it's totally different.
Marc:In some ways, yeah.
Marc:You know, in terms of the approach?
Marc:How about Keith?
Marc:Did you ever play with Keith?
Guest:I played with Keith at a rehearsal once.
Marc:Was that a big thrill?
Guest:Oh, it was an amazing night.
Guest:I don't even think he even knew who I was, but it was amazing, yeah.
Marc:What did you get from Keith?
Marc:Because we talked about George, and you brought George up and Keith in the same sentence.
Marc:For me, when I listen to Keith, and I'm just an amateur guitar player, and I don't know about all those open tunings, but he just chooses the weirdest moments to fill the gap, and he's got his own groove, and it seems like Charlie's following him.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But, you know, no one plays like that, but you can't really explain it.
Marc:Can you?
Guest:I could probably try to explain it, but I wouldn't want to.
Guest:It's his instinctual way of playing.
Guest:But, you know, speaking of Chuck Berry, and you mentioned it.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:If you think about it, George Harrison and Keith, in the beginning, both did Chuck Berry songs.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:And they both picked up on that.
Guest:Keith took it... I mean, the interesting thing about the tunings and all that that I found, I looked...
Guest:loved the Stones from the beginning, before he was doing the open tuning.
Guest:He was doing more of a Chuck Berry kind of stuff, and the songs, also the writing.
Guest:But what's beautiful about what Keith did is about, I don't know, four years into his career, he reinvented his whole style with that open tuning.
Guest:You know, the street fighting man.
Guest:Yeah, I think Ry Cooter gave it to him.
Guest:Yeah, so, and that's, you know, it's hard to do, to get good once, but then to recreate yourself and go past it twice is really amazing.
Guest:With that open tuning, you ever fuck around with that?
Guest:Oh, yeah, I use it all the time.
Guest:Was it a D?
Guest:Well, there's different ones.
Guest:Yeah, which ones do you use?
Guest:G is the one I'm more familiar with.
Guest:G and A. And Muddy used a G, too, right?
Guest:Well, yeah, they all used them all, I guess.
Guest:E, G, you know.
Guest:Just tune it to an open chord, whatever chord it is.
Guest:And what does that get you?
Guest:it gets you a harmonic it gets you a full sound right without having to push your fingers down right all your fingers you just put one thing clang there it is a big full right yeah yeah yeah and then you're forced to come up with things on top of that right so it pushes you into different voicings and feels and things yeah yeah did you use some of that on this record
Guest:Oh, on this record.
Guest:You don't even think about it anymore.
Guest:I don't think I use the open tunings on this record, but on the harp records over the years, I use it a few times.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And where are you at between finger picking and pick picking?
Marc:I've been talking to a lot of dudes now.
Marc:Everyone's into playing with the fingers now.
Marc:Two fingers.
Guest:It's interesting to say that because I find as I get older, I don't pick up the pick as much as I used to.
Guest:I'll just play with my fingers.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:You a two finger guy?
Guest:Two, three.
Guest:Yeah, two or three?
Guest:Sometimes one.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Whatever is in the space to get the job done.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, it's a different sound when you're just picking with your thumb, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When I first started finger picking, I liked Chet Atkins, and I had the thumb pick.
Guest:I could never get the cumbersome thing with the picks and the thumb picks, so I just threw that away and started playing with my thumb.
Guest:But I learned the stuff without the pick, so I can play with my thumb.
Marc:You can do Chet Atkins, those riffs?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:I can show you something later.
Guest:But yeah, I learned those records.
Guest:Some of those songs, I wanted to know how to do that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The reason was when I first started playing guitar, my relatives would come over and I'd go, I'm learning the guitar and play with something.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Here's a D. Right, right.
Guest:I got to figure out how to impress them.
Guest:Here's a lick.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they go, oh, great.
Guest:And they walk away.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Next time they come over, I'm going to play the whole song, bass and rhythm and melody, Chet Atkins.
Guest:So I forced myself to learn that so I wouldn't be embarrassed.
Guest:Oh, here's one.
Guest:And they go, whoa, how do you do that?
Marc:Yeah, if you do a whole Chet Atkins run.
Marc:And then you've got that skill set.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It taught me coordination and it's just part of learning.
Guest:You spent a lot of time with Dylan, I guess, huh?
Guest:Quite a bit, several years we toured around.
Marc:With the Heartbreakers and Dylan?
Guest:Yeah, and I've done a few records just with him without the Heartbreakers.
Marc:And what do you get the, what's the sense of him that, like, I mean, he's such a mysterious kind of interesting dude.
Marc:You know, what did you find outside of, like, you know, that moment where you're talking about the sort of meeting in the middle on the rhythm thing, on the Chuck Berry thing?
Marc:What else is, what is his magic, you know?
Marc:What did you learn from that dude?
Marc:Oh, what did I learn from him?
Marc:I mean, in a sense of, like, being around it.
Marc:Like, is it a songwriting trip?
Marc:Is it a presence trip?
Guest:It's all those things.
Guest:It's confidence.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's just, I mean, nobody can do what he does.
Marc:It's a band leader thing, too?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, one thing I learned from him that was a little awkward at first was that he...
Guest:When he was touring with us, we rehearsed and learned a lot of songs in a certain way.
Guest:If we get on stage, he might change it.
Guest:He was brave.
Guest:That's the word.
Guest:He's brave.
Guest:The Heartbreakers, if we had a song, it worked like this.
Guest:We're going to play it like this because we don't want to lose them.
Guest:And he kind of thought, well, I'm going to do what I want to do.
Guest:And if I lose them,
Guest:I probably won't, but I'm not worried about it.
Guest:I'll get him back.
Guest:Yeah, I'll get him back.
Guest:They'll pay for that.
Guest:But I think it was just the courage and bravery in everything he did.
Guest:I hope I learned some of that from him.
Marc:So now when you look back at the catalog, when you think about the Tom Petty's and the Heartbreakers records,
Marc:Which ones are ones where you're like, oh man, that one is fucking magic forever.
Marc:I mean, I know there's a lot of them, but which record did you think you guys were really in?
Guest:I liked that first record.
Guest:And I'll tell you why.
Guest:It's the one I go back to.
Guest:It was those songs and it was us finding who we were.
Guest:Especially like American Girl, I remember when we did that song and I heard it back and I was like, how did we do that?
Guest:But that's us.
Guest:Nobody else can do that.
Guest:We can do that.
Guest:That's our thing.
Guest:The way he sang it, the lyric imagery, the harmonics in the instruments, we found a thing.
Guest:And so that album is, and all the songs on it I like.
Guest:Me too.
Guest:I always go back to that one.
Guest:I mean, I like all the albums for different songs here and there.
Guest:But if I had to pick one, I'd probably go with that one.
Guest:Isn't that amazing?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That first record?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because you could feel the magic, I guess.
Guest:The magic of discovery.
Guest:Right.
Guest:We're finding what we are.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you can hear that in the tracks.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And how long did it take to record that thing?
Marc:Not too long.
Marc:Because it must be different, man.
Marc:But you guys were playing live, you said, the last couple.
Marc:But even watching Jimmy Iovine and dealing with...
Marc:and obviously you're different than bruce but like you know a studio thing i recorded something in a studio once and i'm like holy this is a job how do you keep this fresh well that's a challenge it's part of the gig right no i get it yeah um but i guess the purity of the first record and then like did you find that you you know because of the studio it becomes different well you know it's interesting the first record wasn't really done in a proper studio it was done in the shelter office
Guest:They had brought some gear out from Tulsa and set it up in an office.
Guest:So it was just a room and then a window and a little room that they made into a control room.
Guest:And it was like a garage, really.
Guest:They were learning how to record us.
Guest:We were learning how to play and write.
Guest:And so when you get into a sterile studio, it can be a real challenge to keep the energy and spark going.
Guest:Yeah, I bet.
Guest:But that's part of the job.
Guest:That's the hardest part of it, really, isn't it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You mentioned it.
Marc:Yeah, and playing live, you love it.
Guest:oh i love playing live yeah i'll never stop i can't believe how many dates you guys must have done on the road all the time yeah i think about that too i don't know how you guys hit the notes you hit them right every time but i guess that's the job too huh well you love it you love something you do it yeah you know i love playing and i just can't imagine stopping and i just i'm looking forward to this you know i don't care if there's two people there i'm gonna show up and play yeah
Marc:And the good thing about that, when you're in a band, it's like, there may be two people out there, but you got all your guys over here.
Guest:There you go, yeah.
Marc:And we're gonna play.
Marc:Well, man, it was great talking to you.
Marc:You too.
Marc:And I really wish you all the success in the world.
Guest:Well, when we play the troubadour, come down and see us.
Marc:Yeah, I definitely will.
Marc:I love your music.
Marc:It's a really good band.
Marc:You're doing it yourself, and I love all the shit you did with Tom.
Marc:Thanks for being here.
Marc:Thank you very much.
Marc:Mike Campbell.
Marc:Nice guy.
Marc:Good guitar player.
Marc:The Dirty Knobs Reckless Abandon is now available wherever you get your music.
Marc:And now let's do some shoegazing.
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey lives.
Marc:LaFonda.