Episode 1175 - Glenn Close
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck nicks?
Marc:What the fucksters?
Marc:What the fuckadelics?
Marc:That could go on for a while.
Marc:Sometimes I don't know if I should keep doing it at all.
Marc:But we're 10 years in, and it was sort of a carryover from something I did back in the day on Morning Sedition.
Marc:A community builder.
Marc:Now it's a habit.
Marc:Now it's a signature thing.
Marc:And I do it.
Marc:I used to have lists of different WTF things.
Marc:And I like doing it.
Marc:So I don't know who I'm talking to.
Marc:It's as if somebody just told me not to do it.
Marc:And that person just lives in my head.
Marc:That there was a moment there in the middle of doing it where I'm like, I'm doing this again.
Marc:And then there was another voice that said, why?
Marc:And then the out loud one said, because it's what I do.
Marc:How's it going with you guys?
Marc:Are you doing what you do?
Marc:Are you holding on?
Marc:The bottom line is the last several months, four years, been hard for everybody.
Marc:I was shattered with some personal experiences that I'm getting through.
Marc:But it's in all this vulnerability and in all this isolation that you start to see, and I've talked about this a bit before, that you kind of really get the sense of who you really are.
Marc:And lately, I've really been wondering if I've changed at all.
Marc:You know, because I have this compulsion.
Marc:Some of my old kind of desires to like, I want to smoke cigars.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:I want to be out in the world.
Marc:I just like, I can feel the discomfort and my sense of self is kind of fragmented.
Marc:I find I'm insecure again.
Marc:I'm obsessing about my weight and this and that.
Marc:All the things that I used to do to try to somehow feel like I had control and
Marc:Over my life by creating more aggravation for myself, more drama for myself, more reasons to to beat myself up.
Marc:That was somehow grounding to me through most of my life.
Marc:And I've identified that.
Marc:But now with Lynn gone and the fact that I was starting to believe her, you know, I was starting to believe her idea of me.
Marc:I think a lot of it was true.
Marc:I was trying to live in that.
Marc:But now it's like it's a struggle.
Marc:So the last few weeks have been sort of fraught.
Marc:With this idea that like, well, fuck it, man.
Marc:Look at me.
Marc:Maybe she was the best thing about me.
Marc:Even though it had nothing to do with me.
Marc:Maybe I felt better when I was with her.
Marc:And now look at me.
Marc:I'm just the same old fuck I always was.
Marc:And then I just beat myself up for one reason or another.
Marc:And by the way, I have Glenn Close on today.
Marc:Glenn Close.
Marc:It's one of the only things that saves me is I get to talk to amazingly talented people and enjoy that and wonder, in the face of it, do I have any talent?
Marc:Who am I?
Marc:What am I?
Marc:But you know Glenn Close from The Big Chill, Fatal Attraction, The Natural...
Marc:Maybe some of you grew up watching her in 101 Dalmatians.
Marc:She's currently in the new Netflix movie Hillbilly Elegy, which was quite a stunning performance on her part.
Marc:And, you know, Amy Adams.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I get some of the Amy's mixed up.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Amy Adams.
Marc:So that was great to talk to her.
Marc:But this meditation thing keeps popping up, you know.
Marc:I've been doing therapy.
Marc:I've been doing EMDR to try to process, you know, some of the trauma of late and of early.
Marc:I got to sit quietly.
Marc:My therapist pointed out to me that that negative thinking is sort of the animal thing that we have to choose against.
Marc:I never thought about this way.
Marc:A couple of things that happened the last week.
Marc:I talked to John Densmore from The Doors, who in his book brought up something that I said to Gary Shanley or Gary Shanley said to me.
Marc:And I'm paraphrasing.
Marc:It was like people that can't sit in silence or with silence are addicts.
Marc:And when you strip it down to that degree, like, you know, in, you know, to get to a place of silence, meditative silence, to not be able to do that is in and of itself addiction to where you like, I have to, I have to distract.
Marc:I have to distract.
Marc:I have to distract.
Marc:I have to get away from me.
Marc:But the interesting thing that my therapist brought up was that on an animal level, we think negative.
Marc:And I'm like, how is that even possible?
Marc:Because we're conscious.
Marc:I mean, negative is a value judgment.
Marc:And she said, well, as an animal, all you're thinking is fight or flight.
Marc:Really, that's your reaction to the world.
Marc:You wake up and you're like, all right, here we go.
Marc:So that translated into human, you know, is like fear and assumptions and negative thoughts.
Marc:And then the beating yourself up, that's a different choice.
Marc:That comes from parenting or lack of parenting.
Marc:But like, when does this stop?
Marc:When do I stop making mistakes?
Marc:When do I fully fucking learn from my experience?
Marc:I guess not until I live on a goddamn mountain by myself.
Marc:But that's where the possibility comes in.
Marc:Why can't I just sit with myself until I like myself?
Marc:But this meditation thing keeps coming up.
Marc:It kind of landed with me when Densmore took that section of my conversation with Gary Shanling, which I don't remember.
Marc:And then the knowledge that Lynn used to meditate twice a day.
Marc:And then my therapist saying that one of the things that it would enable you to do
Marc:if you sit with yourself, just learn how to do it, to meditate, is to accept yourself and maybe love yourself.
Marc:See, that's the fucked up thing.
Marc:I don't want to get into complaining.
Marc:We have bigger problems in the world.
Marc:Everyone's got their own burden to carry and to bear.
Marc:You know, try not to dump it on other people.
Marc:But why can't I just sit fucking quietly and figure that out?
Marc:God damn it.
Marc:I crave the peace of abandon.
Marc:And it seems attainable.
Marc:If I just sit, I know what's up intellectually.
Marc:I know who I am in my heart.
Marc:I know my liabilities.
Marc:I know my shortcomings.
Marc:I know my sadness, my anger.
Marc:I know all this stuff.
Marc:And I live with it.
Marc:And some days I accept it.
Marc:But I need to get to the next place where I continue to honor myself through decisions and also to maybe, and I don't even like to say it, to like myself for fuck's sake, to love myself.
Marc:See, I'm uncomfortable with even saying that.
Marc:I'd rather just, you know, parade around on stage or on Instagram and
Marc:With you folks.
Marc:Doing the emotional wrestling.
Marc:Doing the back and forth.
Marc:Doing the song and dance.
Marc:Doing the jokes.
Marc:Doing the anger.
Marc:Doing the guitar.
Marc:Doing this.
Marc:Doing that.
Marc:Doing the eating.
Marc:Doing the cooking.
Marc:Stripping the pans.
Marc:Starting things not finishing things.
Marc:Loose ends.
Marc:Drama.
Marc:terrified eating god damn i gotta get straight with myself in terms of acceptance self-love moving through feelings it like there is such a fucking strong part of me that is so fucking young inside childish even
Marc:And so afraid of being hurt.
Marc:And I've talked about this before in my act.
Marc:The monster I created to protect the child inside is hard to manage.
Marc:I mean, I can't get any truther than that.
Marc:That's as truther as I can be.
Marc:And it exists.
Marc:I got to get that kid out.
Marc:I got to get that kid okay.
Marc:I got to show that kid some love.
Marc:And I got to fucking integrate and meditate on that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:This is what I'm left with after phase one of the grieving process.
Marc:I'm left with me again.
Marc:Goddamn, I'm going to make a cake.
Marc:So, look, Glenn Close was a surprising talk about things that I couldn't have imagined.
Marc:It always is that way when I talk to people.
Marc:I was happy to talk to her.
Marc:I was thrilled to talk to her.
Marc:I watched the movie Hillbilly Elegy.
Marc:Obviously, I've seen many of her movies.
Marc:But it was a very engaged conversation, and she looks great.
Marc:And I love her, and I love talking to her.
Marc:She's in this new movie, as I mentioned, Hillbilly Elegy.
Marc:It's got her, Glenn Close, Amy Adams, directed by Ron Howard, streaming on Netflix now.
Marc:And this is this is me talking to Glenn Close.
Marc:Hi, Glenn.
Guest:Hi.
Marc:How are you?
Guest:I'm fine.
Guest:Are you still in Northern California?
Marc:I am in, no, I'm in Southern California.
Guest:Ah.
Marc:Where are you?
Guest:I'm in Bozeman, Montana.
Marc:Really?
Guest:It's snowing right now.
Guest:Can you see?
Marc:That's exciting.
Marc:I know.
Marc:It's great.
Marc:Yeah, we don't have real winter down here.
Marc:It's just crisp.
Guest:Yeah, crisp for you is like 62 degrees.
Marc:Exactly, yeah.
Guest:Crisp for us is minus nine.
Marc:People here are complaining about how cold it is, and it's, yeah, 63.
Guest:You're a bunch of wusses down here.
Marc:Look, I lived in New York for long enough.
Marc:I'm from New Mexico.
Marc:I know what snow is.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I know what wind chill is.
Guest:Boy, can New York get cold.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:With the wind chill?
Marc:It's crazy.
Guest:But it's such damp cold.
Marc:Yeah, it's the worst.
Guest:Here's different.
Guest:It's dry.
Guest:It's not as bad.
Marc:It's nice.
Marc:It's pretty.
Marc:You can still enjoy the cold in Montana.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How long have you been up there?
Guest:Well, two members of my family, my two siblings, have been here for over 30 years.
Guest:Really?
Guest:My parents used to live, they're both gone now, but they were in Wyoming, so...
Guest:I was the only Eastern holdout for my entire working life until last Christmas when I moved here, across the yard from my younger sister.
Marc:So you live on the same compound?
Guest:Oh, I wouldn't call it a compound.
Guest:I'd call it two houses next to each other in the nice, fabulous, normal neighborhood.
Marc:Oh, that's nice.
Marc:Yeah, compound's a little menacing.
Guest:Well, compound sounds a little she-shey.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Or a little scary.
Marc:Either way.
Marc:She, she's scary.
Guest:There are compounds out here that are scary.
Marc:I would think so.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But wait, so you're do you come from Wyoming?
Marc:No, we all come from Connecticut.
Marc:So your parents just ended up in Wyoming?
Guest:My parents were black sheep if they were ever black sheep.
Guest:I mean, they both grew up basically in Greenwich, Connecticut.
Marc:Fancy Greenwich, Connecticut?
Marc:Fancy Greenwich.
Guest:Pointy-toity?
Guest:Well, now it's really different from when I was growing up.
Guest:But anyway.
Marc:What's going on there now?
Marc:I don't even know what's going on in Greenwich.
Guest:Well, I don't know either.
Guest:But, you know, all these huge, huge, huge, huge mansions all over the place with big, big walls and locked gates.
Guest:And when I was little, we would, you know, get on our little...
Guest:feisty shetland pony and ride all over the place and you know it was uh right different it felt like a totally different the rolling hills of connecticut or something yeah i mean it was like the back you know back country but your parents were black sheep like i got it like wait what was the situation there when you're growing up i mean i mean we were lucky enough to to my grandfather had had uh a
Guest:like 180 acres and oh my god that's like half the state he was he was yeah so we could have been in iowa as far as we were concerned so that was was that a compound where you guys well i couldn't call a farm a compound it was a farm yeah it was like a farm legit farm so your grandfather was yeah chickens and oh he wasn't in the farming business but yes i call it a gentleman's farm yeah
Guest:So we ran wild.
Marc:So was he a big landowner?
Marc:Was he like a corporate wizard, your grandfather?
Marc:Was he from the Mayflower or something?
Guest:Well, other ancestors weren't on the Mayflower, but close behind.
Marc:No kidding.
Marc:So old school America.
Guest:Two Yankees.
Guest:I mean, around the world, like Yankees...
Guest:It's Yankee, you know, is not necessarily it can be pejorative.
Marc:No, no, I get it.
Guest:You know, you know, we real.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:New Englanders.
Marc:Blue Bloods.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So that's well, that's kind of deep.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I mean, yeah.
Guest:Well, it's it's it's fascinating.
Guest:I you know, I want to know everything about my family.
Guest:I know my grandmother on my dad's side was in the Galveston flood.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Three years old.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Tell me about that.
Marc:What is the Galveston flood?
Guest:The Galveston flood was still 8,000 people died.
Guest:It's still the biggest natural disaster to befall this country.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Guest:It was a storm surge that basically wiped out a huge section of Galveston.
Marc:So you had family from Texas.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Texas, Virginia.
Guest:And that was your mom's side?
Guest:My dad's side.
Marc:Who's the one that goes back in the Connecticut?
Guest:Well, the closest do.
Guest:There's a Thomas Close house on Lake Avenue in Greenwich, and that goes back to...
Marc:Way back.
Guest:Way back.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So would you say that they were like, you know, old school kind of waspy?
Marc:You know, was it a?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You kind of lived in that world.
Marc:That's exciting.
Guest:That's what you grew up in.
Guest:Well, that's why I say my parents were black sheep because we did not live in that world.
Guest:They quit the country clubs.
Guest:You know, we didn't have coming out parties.
Guest:None of that stuff.
Guest:Really?
Guest:They weren't into that.
Marc:Rebels.
Marc:What did they do?
Marc:What was your dad's gig?
Guest:My dad was a surgeon.
Guest:Oh, mine too.
Guest:He went into the war.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he flew with the Army Air Corps in France.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And when he came back, he went to Colombia.
Yeah.
Guest:Became a surgeon.
Marc:What kind of surgeon?
Marc:General?
Guest:General surgeon, yeah.
Guest:Is your dad a general surgeon?
Marc:Orthopedic.
Marc:Hammers and saws.
Guest:Nothing like a good orthopedic surgeon.
Guest:Yeah, my dad did everything.
Guest:I mean, it's a long story, and it could be the entire...
Guest:show interview but you know they ended up going he went to the Congo in 1980 1960 really with a kind of a quasi missionary type group and he he spoke fluent French so when the mutiny broke out he stayed walked into the big hospital there and said put me to work I'm a surgeon all the Belgian surgeons were leaving and he worked all through the
Guest:the mutiny and stayed for 16 years in the Congo.
Guest:And then when they came back, they, they went to the least populated County in the least populated state, which was Sublet County, Wyoming.
Guest:And it became the town doc for the last 25, 30 years of his life.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:That really is black sheep business.
Marc:So you lived in the Congo as a kid.
Marc:I visited the Congo and,
Marc:Were you already too old?
Marc:No.
Guest:That's a story.
Guest:They got into a kind of a cult group.
Guest:Christian cult?
Guest:This is why we don't want to go there.
Marc:Too far?
Guest:Well, it was supposed to be for everybody.
Guest:If you were a good Muslim, be a good Muslim.
Guest:A good Christian, be a good Christian.
Guest:But basically, it was like any other cult.
Guest:Well, we're going to remake the world and...
Marc:no kidding so so you were you were old enough to say i'm not fucking doing that no i wasn't sorry i didn't get out of it till i was 22 and i went to college of william and mary as a freshman when i was 22 years old did you was it a revelation that you realized it was a cult or were you like this is bullshit i got to get out thank on them in college
Guest:Yeah, it was that.
Marc:That, oh.
Guest:I mean, a revelation.
Guest:I mean, it was always incredibly controlling.
Guest:So I didn't know what I didn't know.
Guest:I just knew I was ignorant.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:So you didn't know you were in a cult, per se.
Guest:It was just the life you were living.
Guest:Well, I felt very separate and different from people.
Marc:Oof.
Marc:What was the name of the thing?
Guest:Moral Rearmament.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Or MRA.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I used to not be able to talk about it at all because I felt like there was a stamp on my forehead.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And I felt a sense of terrible shame.
Guest:It wasn't my fault.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But I felt terrible shame.
Guest:And it really wreaked havoc with me and my siblings.
Guest:I, you know, but that's why it's a long story.
Yeah.
Guest:know it's it's devastating to go through something like that when you're that young it's it's a mindfuck and it's real uh psychological abuse basically and oh for sure was there you don't know who you are yeah yeah oh so oh that was the whole thing huh oh the leader yes it was on on your birthday you got ushered into this room and you were given a little
Guest:This is when we stayed in Switzerland for Tuesday, getting this little embroidered Swiss hanky.
Guest:It was like you were being given gold.
Guest:It was just when you think about it, it was so ridiculous.
Guest:And I remember as a little girl, we would all have to have work shifts.
Guest:If you got lucky enough to work in Uncle Frank's dining room, and you could set the table, and of course it had all the best crystal and silverware, but you felt like you were the anointed.
Guest:I mean, it's the same kind of thing that is such...
Guest:So powerful.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it's interesting, isn't it?
Marc:That your parents like being, you know, sophisticated, educated people kind of like got involved with that.
Guest:Well, you know, I mean, this is everything come, you know, the thing was my mom didn't finish high school.
Guest:They got married when they were 18.
Guest:Dad.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Dad had a very, very good.
Guest:He went to St.
Guest:Paul's.
Guest:Then he went to Harvard, but left.
Guest:to go to into the war and then he yeah he had he had a great education and he also had as a child had been sent as at seven years old which i think had huge repercussions uh on how he out looked at the world but went um to uh english schools uh-huh oh okay from seven on you know so he was like he was away from his parents and just left to the institution yes yes his dad was the director of the american hospital and
Guest:So that's why he spoke French.
Guest:I mean, so it's fascinating.
Guest:It's really fascinating.
Guest:And I've been able to come to terms with it.
Guest:But it's still, I have trigger points that I've become aware of.
Guest:And I just know what kind of people to stay away from.
Guest:It's not healthy for me.
Marc:Well, I mean, you've got to be like there's there's an element of that now that I think everybody tries to reckon with.
Marc:Like, you know, how do these people allow themselves to be brain fucked by bullshit and commit to it wholeheartedly?
Marc:It's hard to understand.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I I it comes down to I think my parents.
Guest:when they got sucked into it had were at a very very fragile point in their marriage oh you know and i think they and they this group fills in where you are the weakest and tells you come in come in come in and believe what we believe and we're going to change the world is that
Guest:I think as humans, we're very susceptible to that because we're born into this world.
Guest:We don't know where we come from.
Guest:We don't know where we're going.
Guest:We don't know who we are.
Guest:And depending on what kind of...
Guest:what kind of strength you get from your parents upbringing yeah right yeah that um it's what it's how you can deal with it yeah that's the vulnerability keep your individuality and i and i do think because i i i was born i you know i'm very much an introvert i've been into my head since i was little so i had a very active imaginative life so i don't think they ever got me there
Guest:But they got me in a lot of other ways.
Guest:They, I mean the group, not my parents.
Marc:But your parents obviously needed some parental, like they had a gap in their parent, how they were parented.
Marc:Because you need that.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:My dad was, I mean, basically he was abandoned when he sent a seven-year-old.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You know, it's crazy.
Marc:So you were able to hide your inner life and you knew that instinctively that that was sort of yours.
Guest:Well, I, you know, you become a little soldier.
Guest:Yes, I do.
Guest:My other of my siblings, one, my younger sister was too young, but my other siblings...
Guest:had their own ways of rebelling, but I don't have the DNA of a rebel.
Marc:No?
Guest:Well, I guess I've learned it in a way, but... You more retreat inward?
Marc:I'm more of a pleaser.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:How can I help?
Marc:How can I help you with your tumbling?
Guest:Who do you want me to be?
Guest:Who do you want me to be?
Guest:I can be that.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I can be that.
Guest:Ooh, I'm not that.
Guest:Oh, I better get out of here.
Guest:But...
Guest:Every single relationship I've ever had.
Guest:Who do you want me to be?
Guest:Oh, I can be that.
Guest:Oh, I'm not that.
Guest:Help!
Marc:And hopefully as you get older, it takes less time to realize you're not that.
Guest:Shall I say, I had a very empty toolbox.
Guest:And I haven't always known the right tools to put in it.
Guest:But, you know, I think I'm at a pretty...
Guest:Good place in my life now.
Marc:You seem good.
Marc:You're exuding goodness.
Marc:I feel great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, it's like, because I was thinking, well, that explains a lot about, because one thing that I was thinking about before I talked to you is the range of women that you have been.
Marc:In acting, it's kind of crazy that if you really think about all the different extreme types of emotional monsters that you've brought.
Marc:Monsters?
Marc:Some of them.
Guest:Only one monster.
Guest:That's Cruella.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Otherwise...
Marc:But you have to bring humanity to people that are that are troubled and mentally fragile and and have real shortcomings that can be dangerous.
Marc:But also, you know, you're really good with the maternal force as well somehow.
Marc:So I don't know where you tap into all that, but I guess this needing to to be somebody for somebody must have informed the early acting intent.
Guest:You know, I really don't know because I think that love of pretending.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which it is when you're a child.
Guest:Right.
Guest:In the early days, you know, before I was seven, we had this wonderful landscape to run on and imagine on.
Guest:And we did.
Guest:And I was, you know, I was a cowboy.
Guest:But I had... And we played with puppets.
Guest:And we... It was, you know...
Guest:It was, of course, you lived, you made up things.
Guest:You made up your games and who you were and where your hideout was and who are the good guys, who are the bad guys.
Guest:You know, it was all and it's all so healthy for a child to do that.
Guest:And I loved fairy tales.
Guest:I loved even the scary ones.
Guest:I'd pretend I was a little match girl, you know.
Guest:The more kind of forlorn, the better.
Guest:And then so I loved the great classic Disney movies.
Guest:animated features um what especially snow white especially snow white because the the um the wicked witch was so incredibly scary and then i got to play a wicked witch later as cruella a disney witch right yeah a disney witch it was it was so so wonderful so i think uh i think long uh
Guest:It was in my, I'm doing what I should be doing.
Marc:Well, I mean, in that moment that you were able to go to college to sort of escape from, you know, get out from under this weird, shameful life that you had to hide.
Marc:Like, I imagine that at that moment, like, that must have just been mind-blowing.
Marc:Because, I mean, that was in the 70s, too, right?
Marc:So a lot of shit was happening.
Marc:1970s.
Marc:So the world was blowing up expressively.
Marc:The youth of the country was kind of like music, art, taking risks.
Guest:But I had been caught in a very conservative group.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So it must have been just explosive.
Marc:What college did you go to?
Guest:William & Mary, Virginia.
Guest:It was incredible.
Marc:What was the campus like there?
Marc:Were the young people, were they pushing the envelope at Williams?
Guest:It wasn't like Berkeley or anything like that.
Marc:But that kind of spread around a bit, didn't it?
Guest:Yeah, it did.
Guest:But I wasn't kind of, you know, I just lived in the theater department.
Guest:I have to say, I wish now I'd been more of a rebel.
Guest:But you have to remember, that kind of rebellion was not built into me.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:You know, so I had to find it.
Guest:It took me a long time, long, long, long time.
Guest:But what I had was the theater.
Marc:And so that was what you studied there the whole time you were there?
Guest:Oh, I studied theater.
Guest:Well, I majored in theater and anthropology.
Guest:anthropology of course it was like literally it was like water in the desert i had a brilliant bio 101 yeah professor i thought oh god you know they we talk about mitochondria and that's all we know i say no no i want to know more yeah i never could have gotten through chemistry but um i couldn't either you know just it was like everything philosophy yeah you know french drama english literature
Guest:which still kind of intimidates me in a way.
Guest:There's always the girl who got the meaning kind of.
Marc:Yeah, but they're liars.
Guest:No, it was fantastic.
Guest:And I had a little dog, Penny, with me, and she trot behind me.
Marc:In college?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You brought a dog to college?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's nice.
Marc:I did.
Marc:I've never heard that before.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In fact, my senior year at Phi Beta Kappa Hall, Phi Beta Kappa started at William & Mary.
Guest:And so there's their theater.
Guest:It was a beautiful, beautiful... I think they're now redoing it.
Guest:I hope they...
Guest:But anyway, their theater was where I lived, and Penny was very much a part there.
Guest:And I heard my senior year, or after I graduated, that the faculty had gotten together and realized that there were too many dogs in the building and they'd better lay down the law and not allow dogs.
Guest:And then there was this pause, and then somebody said...
Guest:But what about Penny?
Marc:The most important dog.
Guest:Yeah, so they didn't, I don't think they changed it real until after we were gone.
Marc:That's wild.
Marc:I never saw any dogs in college.
Marc:I guess it was a different time.
Marc:There should be more dogs in college.
Marc:I think so.
Guest:People would not be in their high anxiety and stress.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, my little soulmate's just lying right over there.
Marc:You got one?
Guest:Yes, Pip.
Guest:Sir Pippin of Beanfield, yes.
Marc:Ah, yes.
Marc:What kind of dog is Pip?
Guest:Pip is a Havanese.
Guest:Oh, I don't even know what that looks like.
Guest:Well, Havanese can come in all different colors, but he was born gray and black, and now he's white.
Marc:Old?
Guest:No, he's five.
Marc:Oh, that's not bad.
Guest:No, he just turned white.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:It just happened?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So when you get there, like when you start doing the theater work, you had had no real experience with it before?
Guest:Well, in the group, they had theater, but they used to spread the message and they'd go on these missions with their theater things.
Marc:Like what?
Marc:Like a singing group?
Guest:Yeah, well, no, it was an actual, they had plays.
Marc:In the cult?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:And there was a children's play called Bungle in the Jungle, and I played a tiger once.
Guest:And I loved it probably too much.
Guest:You weren't supposed to like it too much.
Marc:For the wrong reasons.
Marc:You just liked the acting.
Guest:Yeah, because, oh, I feel like this is cool.
Marc:I'm a tiger.
Marc:It's not cool.
Marc:It's not about you.
Marc:And what, these were morality things?
Marc:I can't believe I'm laughing at it.
Marc:What?
Marc:It's good to laugh at.
Marc:Message.
Marc:They had a message, the plays.
Marc:Oh, everything had a message.
Marc:It was a recruitment tool.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:You were in.
Marc:I'm so surprised I never heard of the cult.
Marc:So that was your early theater experience?
Marc:And other than that, you didn't do any acting in high school or anything?
Guest:Let's see.
Guest:Well, I went to Rosemary Hall.
Guest:from 10th grade on, because we came back to this country.
Guest:And I was in the drama club.
Guest:And they had an outdoor amphitheater.
Guest:It was fabulous.
Guest:It was all girls school.
Guest:But every spring semester, we'd put on a Shakespeare play in the amphitheater.
Guest:And my senior year, I was Romeo.
Marc:and i was in the merchants of venice and blah blah blah yes did you get shakespeare early on i mean did you did it resonate with you like i mean no yeah i've had a very hard time with it and i'm getting better but i don't i don't practice or anything well if you understand if the actor understands it the audience will understand it i think it's just a matter of staying in the saddle i mean it's hard to listen to it goes on a while
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:It's like, oh, my God, they're still talking about what are they talking about now?
Marc:I checked out for three seconds.
Marc:I don't know what's happening.
Marc:That's my problem.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So in terms of training, was there someone that changed your life down there in college?
Guest:Dr. Howard Scammon.
Guest:He was the head of the theater department.
Guest:He was an absolute drunk.
Guest:And I did my first audition.
Guest:you know, literally when I, it was for 12th night and, uh, I was in chemistry class or I was in bio, but we were in the lab and Mr. Scammy had this kind of wild white hair and he wore flip flops and, you know, kind of sherbet colored Bermuda shorts.
Guest:And he, he, he was, he peeked around the corner of the door of the lab and asked if I was there.
Guest:And I went up to him and he said, I just want to make sure you know you have a call back.
Guest:So I got the role of Olivia in Twelfth Night.
Guest:And the great thing about going to a liberal arts school
Guest:is that kids from all over the campus would participate in the theater projects.
Guest:So you couldn't really be a snob about what you were doing.
Guest:You just tried to do it.
Guest:I really like that.
Guest:There were kids who were there just because of the love of it, not because they wanted to make it their career.
Guest:And yet there was a triumvirate at that time that they could have been in any acting school.
Guest:And Howard Scammon, boy, what a character he was.
Guest:But he sensed my...
Guest:the seriousness of my intent.
Guest:And he was, I remember he said to me, as I became kind of, you know, a star at that time of maybe the William & Mary Theatre, though you would have a starring role, then you'd have a very, very secondary role, and then you would do
Guest:You do costumes and then you do, you know, sets.
Guest:Yeah, real theater community stuff.
Guest:But I remember him saying to me at one point, just remember, you're a big fish in a very little pond.
Yeah.
Marc:So he was a real champion of yours.
Guest:He was.
Guest:He helped me.
Guest:They did at that time at Williamsburg this outdoor, called the Common Glory, this outdoor drama about the revolution.
Guest:But it was a true amphitheater.
Guest:It didn't have any sound system.
Guest:And he helped me really...
Guest:with my vocal range, my speaking vocal range.
Guest:And then my senior year,
Guest:I've always loved Katherine Hepburn because she's from Connecticut.
Guest:Her father was a doctor.
Guest:And I've always felt, unlike me, that she knew who she was.
Guest:You know, I've always had great respect for her.
Guest:She was kind of one of a kind, you know.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:An original and didn't apologize for it.
Guest:And I was doing sets, painting sets.
Guest:You know, it was my senior year.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:for some of you there was a television on and it was that Dick Cavett the only time that Hepburn was on television being interviewed by Dick Cavett and um something in me I mean I always knew what I wanted but at that moment it says okay if that's what you want to do do it and the next day I went to Dr. Scammon's offices and I had heard about the URTA TCG national auditions um and I said would you uh
Guest:you know, nominate me, write this letter.
Guest:It was the last day the letter could be postmarked for that year.
Guest:And I went to those series of auditions and I got my first job.
Marc:In New York?
Guest:Well, the finals for the, I think the TCG, one of them, TCG was the...
Guest:all the college theaters.
Guest:And then the URTA was all the non-profit theaters.
Guest:So it must have been
Guest:Theater Communications Groups.
Guest:I know that's a nonprofit, the TCG.
Guest:And I got my job with a Phoenix theater that had three shows on Broadway.
Guest:And so my first job was understudying on Broadway.
Marc:Really?
Marc:That's amazing.
Marc:I like how the voice that told you to do it was actually Catherine Hepburn's voice, I think.
Guest:Yes, but also before Nike, or what was it, Just Do It?
Guest:He used to stand in the wings and just say, Just do it!
Marc:That was, what's his name, the teacher?
Guest:Howard Scammon.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And after I graduated, I think the year after I graduated, and oh my God, he...
Guest:I was going into the old Helen Hayes Theater for my first job.
Marc:Was it like 46th Street or something?
Marc:Where was it?
Guest:I think it was 46th Street.
Guest:It was like across from the Lunt Fontaine.
Guest:And I saw somebody hovering in the shadows.
Guest:And I looked over and I said, Dr. Scammon?
Guest:And I went up to, what are you doing here?
Guest:And he said, I just wanted to see you walk into the stage door.
Marc:Oh, that's sweet.
Guest:Yeah, and then he sent me a little Jefferson cup, you know, with the name of the play, and sent me very, very, he'd come to see everything I did, and then he would send me really, really...
Guest:Good notes.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So this is throughout your early career.
Marc:So you're doing Broadway.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And he's still and he's coming to see everything.
Marc:And really.
Marc:So he really was like invested and seemed to love you.
Guest:He did.
Guest:And I loved him.
Marc:And was that was that really the foundation of your the training that sort of built you still?
Guest:Oh, absolutely.
Guest:I never went to acting school.
Marc:That was all of it, huh?
Marc:What about singing?
Marc:Where'd you learn how to sing so beautifully?
Guest:I don't want to go into that.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Well, I've always sung.
Guest:I've always sung.
Guest:But I went into a group that was an offshoot of MRA.
Guest:It was in that group for five years.
Guest:Which one was that?
Guest:you see you're a real trooper i feel i'm feeling a little bolus of shame even as i say that because i have fucking no control so i find myself on the girls bus you know for five years with up with people i didn't know that was involved everyone knew up with people but not everyone knew that cult but yeah it came out of it came out of mra no kidding yeah
Marc:How do we get you past this shame?
Marc:You have to let go of the shame, Glenn.
Guest:Well, I just talked about it.
Guest:So but that other people.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just had a dream the other day.
Guest:And this is really cool.
Guest:I just had a dream.
Guest:And I was in a I had been doing a show.
Guest:But it was it was really radical and it was supposed to be up with people.
Guest:And then I was exhausted.
Guest:I was in kind of a room.
Guest:It's almost like a hospital room.
Guest:And the leader came in with a little henchman and and.
Guest:said, oh, we're going to go to Europe.
Guest:I said, I'm not going.
Guest:This isn't what I do.
Guest:In my dream.
Guest:And I've gone through a whole series of dreams.
Guest:And it was so much fun because in my dream, I just was, are you kidding?
Guest:I'm not going to go there.
Guest:It's not what I do.
Guest:In my dream.
Guest:And then the guy had all these buttons.
Guest:His little henchman had all these buttons on his suit.
Guest:I said, what are those buttons?
Guest:He said, they're from a Burgermeister.
Guest:And the thing was, in Switzerland, they get these people to come, like these VIPs, and they'd be Burgermeisters of, you know, some town in Germany or...
Guest:holland or something and they'd suck up to them and everything and and so the fact that in my dream all these years later the word bergameister would come up was hilarious yeah it's hilarious and in your dream you're standing up for yourself yeah i'm just saying and it wasn't even i wasn't even angry i've had i've had
Guest:raging dreams where you wake up gasping for air.
Guest:But this was just, are you kidding me?
Marc:Yeah, I'm over it.
Marc:Go away.
Marc:It was based in Switzerland.
Guest:That's where the big... One of the bases was Switzerland.
Guest:They had a fancy place in London.
Guest:They had a fancy place in LA.
Guest:They had a big house in Tucson.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:I don't even want to look it up.
Guest:I don't know where it is, what it is.
Guest:I don't want to know about either of those organizations.
Marc:Well, I think you've...
Marc:I think you've freed yourself and you've done very well.
Marc:And you are an authentic, unique voice and person.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So we can move on.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Well, you know, it's interesting because I've always felt that art comes out of somewhere a sense of outrage.
Guest:Art that really touches people.
Guest:And I certainly have had my bolus of outrage.
Guest:And I think it's pretty much...
Marc:a bottomless ocean sure yeah i know yeah i can always tell i used to do a bit about that there's a a river of rage it runs through me always but it's your choice to put the kayak in the water yeah yeah but it's always there yeah it's always there for a resource you know
Guest:Luckily, mine's a little bit of a calmer thing than a river on a kayak.
Marc:Maybe just a gently paddling down the Rage Creek.
Guest:Maybe a lake, because the ocean is a little bit scary.
Guest:Mine's a New England lake.
Marc:An angry lake.
Marc:So I guess going to New York at that point must have been sort of jarring and exciting.
Guest:Oh, it was thrilling.
Guest:I still was living at my grandmother's house in Greenwich, and I'd take the train in and get lost.
Guest:I said, I do not.
Guest:I'm going to take, you know, I want to be a New Yorker.
Guest:I'm going to take buses or subways, and I'd end out on Queens, you know, and we were rehearsing down on West 18th Street.
Guest:And, you know, it's like, if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere.
Guest:Well, that's fucking true.
Yeah.
Marc:Just getting someplace.
Guest:Just getting someplace.
Marc:What was the first show that was the first play?
Guest:Congreves Love for Love, a restoration comedy.
Guest:That was 70, 1974.
Marc:So you were really a theater actress for a decade before you did movies, almost.
Guest:I think it's about six years.
Guest:Huh.
Marc:Because my first movie was Garp.
Marc:Well, who were the people that were like, you must have showed up in New York and there must have been the whole community was like, who's this kid?
Marc:Who's this woman?
Guest:Well, I mean, that's a whole other story because...
Guest:Hal Prince was the director of that Love for Love.
Guest:And I understudied a beautiful English actor, Mary Yore, and my best friend still, Mary Beth Hurt.
Guest:Thank God I never had to go on for her.
Guest:But the Saturday before our opening...
Guest:Hal was at the theater at the stage door when I came in and he took me out on the stage and he said, I'm thinking of letting Monsieur go.
Guest:I'll make up my decision during this matinee.
Guest:So stay in your dressing room after the show.
Guest:Everybody always disperses immediately.
Guest:Go get dinner between the shows.
Guest:Stay in your dressing room.
Guest:And if you hear over the intercom that you're wanted down in costumes, I've made my decision and I want you to go on tonight.
Guest:What?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And did it happen?
Guest:It did.
Guest:And I'd never had an understudy rehearsal.
Guest:But the thing was, I was so green and hungry that I went to every single rehearsal.
Guest:And for some ungodly reason, I knew the lines because usually you start understudy rehearsals after the show is opened.
Guest:So I went on that night.
Guest:They tried to find everybody and bring them back so we could at least walk through it.
Guest:And I got through it and I finished the run for that show.
Guest:And then it was not true repertory in that we did one play after another.
Guest:But then I went up to the fourth floor dressing room again and became an understudy.
Guest:So it was tragedy.
Guest:for Mary Yore, who died the following spring.
Guest:And in a profession that can be so cruel and so demanding, it was a profound lesson at the very beginning of my career.
Guest:She wrote me a note.
Guest:She had the grace to write me a note before I went on that night.
Guest:And in that note, she said, be brave and strong.
Guest:She didn't say break a leg or, you know, she said be brave and strong.
Marc:That's heavy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What a gift she gave me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:To be that giving in that moment.
Marc:Jesus.
Marc:Unbelievable.
Marc:And that was the beginning of it.
Guest:That was my first step onto a professional stage.
Marc:And then you went on to do so much.
Marc:I mean, like, who were the, like, who was the, like, I don't know theater as well as I know movies, but I have to assume at that time in the seventies, you were seeing that, that world of those actors that were like, who were around.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:The people you worked with.
Guest:John Lithgow.
Yeah.
Guest:Oh, God.
Guest:Practically everybody in The Big Chill.
Guest:Kevin Kline.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, all of us started.
Guest:Meryl, you know, Mary Beth, Mandy Patinkin.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Who else?
Guest:Everybody.
Marc:That's such an amazing bunch of talented people.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Pretty fierce.
Marc:Really?
Marc:I mean, I think there's plenty of talented people now, obviously, but I think everything seems different.
Marc:There seems to be a crew of people that happened in the 70s that have some sort of integrity that kind of lasts, and they're very defining, but that just might be because of my age.
Marc:Maybe there's plenty of 20-year-olds that are along the same trajectory.
Guest:Well, you know, I think starting out in theater...
Guest:gives you a depth of craft that you do not get if you start out in television or film.
Guest:I think they're great film actors, but stage, it's you and the audience and your craft.
Guest:And there's nobody to edit you.
Guest:There's nobody.
Marc:You got one shot.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Every show, every line.
Guest:Eight times a week, a different audience every night.
Guest:And you go out and deliver.
Guest:And there's a discipline about it.
Guest:You get there on time.
Guest:You do your own makeup unless it's complicated.
Guest:And, you know, if you don't, you get docked.
Guest:You know, it's a discipline that has followed me these 46 years into how I approach everything still.
Marc:And when you say craft, because like when I watch, like I watched Hillbilly Elegy the other night and it's a tricky movie.
Marc:You know, it's heavy and it's, you know, kind of gut wrenching.
Marc:The characters, the character you played and Amy Adams played.
Marc:Unapologetic and broken, but human.
Marc:Did you assess that material and say, if we don't embody these characters as humans, you're on the edge of something that could be kind of farcical.
Guest:Yes, because, I mean, you think of hillbilly, which now I say mountain, you know, the mountain people.
Guest:We just, most of us know him as a cliche.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Which is tragic.
Guest:It is tragic.
Guest:purpose in wanting to tell this story.
Guest:And he will say that he had, you know, his people come from Oklahoma.
Guest:So it was, he called his grandmother mamaw.
Guest:You know, it was this whole mindset that a lot of us have just said, oh, that's a cliche.
Guest:And then we read about the opioid crisis and the poverty and the violence.
Guest:So yes, I think the intent was always to take the
Guest:that family and make them human and you know all great drama comes from family and and and i think in in creating something very specific you then the people then can make broader
Guest:They can relate it to themselves.
Marc:And that's rare that you see those type of people on screen where they're not played as rubes or villains of some sort.
Guest:Or bad people, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So, well, that definitely worked.
Guest:Good, yeah.
Guest:I mean, it was an amazing process.
Guest:He also...
Guest:We were very grateful, first of all, for Ron and all his prep, which is always just astounding.
Guest:But also Netflix gave us the money to have at least three weeks of preparation.
Guest:So we had time to go to Middleton, Ohio and meet the family, see the neighborhood long before we went there to shoot.
Guest:And we met whatever members of the family that were there.
Guest:Each of us had individual time with them.
Guest:to ask whatever questions we thought were pertinent to the characters we were playing.
Guest:And it just was invaluable, invaluable.
Guest:And we all felt it was incredibly brave for that family, especially Bev, and Amy speaks to this, to agree to let strangers come in and play you.
Guest:I mean, and to play you as honestly as they could, especially what she went through.
Marc:I mean, that's what she went through.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So and I think because of the humanity of the story that you will find empathy in places that you might not have had it before.
Marc:well i think that was the that that was the amazing thing about uh how everybody played it and how it was put together you know like your character you know from the outset you know you go through this arc with her where you're like oh what a nice old lady and then you're like what maybe not you know
Marc:And then you get into that familial darkness that drives, I think, what you said before, drama.
Marc:That there's a history there that becomes revealed as the story unfolds.
Marc:But yet, no one, you do not, the empathy stays.
Guest:There are no real villains, people.
Guest:It's just the gray of human life, you know?
Guest:I mean, Mamaw had made terrible mistakes with her children.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And she didn't want to see it happen to J.D.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And there's that one scene, I don't want to spoil anything, where there's a flashback of what your character went through as a young...
Marc:And it was like, oh, my God.
Marc:It's like one of those moments where, like, I could see how... I didn't read the book, but that was, you know, you're like, that was the window into the darkness, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Deeply traumatizing for children.
Guest:But also, I mean, the truth is... For anybody, I think.
Guest:That she and Papaw lived, you know... Separately.
Guest:They lived separately because he had... You know, he played around and he was, you know... And she never...
Marc:dated or so anyone else right but they she he would come and spend most of his days at her house and then walk home in real life in real life yeah it's it's well it must be amazing that the process of actually having to spend time I don't know how many times you did that and you did it with I don't know you didn't have the same opportunity with Von Buehl but but but to actually you know get involved with the family that you're portraying that was the opposite with uh
Guest:That woman I played, Sonny von Bulow, and it was tragic for me.
Guest:Understandably, everybody around her who knew her, and she was still alive up at Presbyterian, New York Presbyterian, wouldn't.
Guest:talk to me and i understand let me but i i do feel that if they had i i would have played her it would have helped me it would it would have only made my performance better sure but but to have this opportunity to sort of integrate and engage and spend time with and understand the emotional history of of the characters you're playing that must be
Marc:more pressure in a way.
Marc:I mean, it must be relieving in some way, but more pressure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My questions were, how did she sit?
Guest:How did she change the atmosphere and she walked into a room?
Guest:How did she hold a cigarette?
Guest:She always used her hands a lot.
Guest:If anything, I kind of tamped it down a bit because she was truly larger than life.
Guest:And she was a much bigger woman than I am, taller.
Guest:But it was incredibly helpful just to try
Guest:to try to, in my imagination, put all those elements together.
Marc:And those are decisions you have to make based on your own imagination without this resource.
Marc:Like if you're playing a fictional person, those are the questions you still ask yourself.
Marc:Well, that's the fun of it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, the fun of it.
Marc:It's all these kind of like minute-to-minute choices around behavior and engagement.
Guest:And a lot of times, I mean, I remember when I worked with Mike Nichols, he said it's really, really good to have secrets.
Guest:And so a lot of times you can have something in your head that's a secret that might be in your either imagination or, for example, something like House of the Spirits where I had an entire book as a Bible that
Guest:in a, you know, supporting role.
Guest:The, you can, you can have things that, that, that might trigger a certain behavior or reaction that the audience might not totally understand, but it will make it,
Marc:intriguing you know it will it will yeah so I think secrets are good so that's and that's sort of different than backstory really like because that's a character choice like you know somebody can hand you a backstory for a character like you know or have a couple of pages of where they come from but to actually choose something that defines them emotionally that is unspoken yeah from that backstory there might be certain yeah events
Marc:You do a lot of backstory work when you do the stuff?
Guest:Usually, usually, if I feel a need,
Guest:When I did damages, it was the first time I couldn't, they wouldn't allow me to do a back sword because they didn't know where they were going to go.
Guest:That was very disconcerting, you know, because I'd done beginning, middle and end.
Guest:And this was, you know, you sign up for six years.
Guest:We did five years.
Guest:But it was a great exercise.
Guest:And in those writers, they were so brilliant.
Guest:And I just said, just promise me that you don't compromise me in a way that I'm not aware of that, that you don't have me say something and then counter, you know, turn it around, you know, three episodes from now and they never did.
Marc:Oh, that's good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're able to trust him.
Marc:But like over there over time, like I like it just struck me because I remember seeing like when I was younger, I remember seeing Garp.
Marc:And I remember like when you when you mentioned that you had a sort of when you were a kid, you were you you were sort of an inner kid and you entertained yourself with your imagination.
Marc:Robin was a lot like that.
Guest:We got to be real friends in that movie that lasted our whole lives.
Guest:Not friends that called each other every week, but friends that, you know, time fell away whenever I saw him.
Guest:It was that kind of experience.
Marc:Well, it feels like you had sort of a similar, you know, a little bit similar background in that.
Marc:He was the only child, though.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, but he did come from a big world.
Guest:Yeah, but he was very much an introvert.
Marc:Yeah, for sure.
Marc:Yeah, I knew him from comedy and I interviewed him years ago and he was a very shy guy, really, in a strange way.
Guest:I remember early on, I think when we were shooting up in Millbrook, the school stuff...
Guest:And so a whole bunch of press had come up and Robin was doing press and he, they, you know, they asked me to go with him just for kind of moral support, I guess.
Guest:And he was before he was really quiet and it was one of the most amazing things.
Guest:demonstrations of brilliance as he when he spoke in front of the press he brought in you know uh what was happening in the world i mean all this stuff and i've never seen him read a newspaper and and it was just it was just astoundingly brilliant and he came off and he and he looked at me said was that okay okay
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's sweet.
Marc:And then I remember the big chill had a profound effect on me somehow.
Marc:I'm younger, but that movie seemed to- You're younger?
Guest:Are you saying you're younger than me?
Marc:I'm the tail end of the boomer thing.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:I'm getting to where everyone is younger than me.
Marc:I'm 57.
Marc:Wow!
Guest:I want to be 57.
Marc:But that movie was like, you know, for better, for worse, it kind of set the ball rolling of what a boomer was.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It defined the spectrum.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And somehow or another, I don't know what it's like working with Kasdan.
Marc:Oh, great.
Marc:But he really kind of, that was to me, I guess it was really the second film where you played a maternal force.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Marc:I mean, that was the idea of that character, right?
Guest:Yeah, I wanted to play Mary Kay's part.
Marc:Right, yeah.
Guest:You know, but I remember he had a reading in New York.
Guest:He brought some of us in.
Guest:It was really kind of... Oh, my God.
Guest:My dear, brilliant friend Mary Beth had been married to Bill Hurd, and she had just broken up with Kevin Kline.
Guest:And she read the Mary... I mean, it was just fraught.
Guest:She read the part that Mary Kay Place got.
Guest:So it was all...
Guest:But after that reading, I went up to Larry and said, I bet you want me to play.
Guest:And he said, yeah.
Guest:I said, okay.
Marc:But you held it down.
Marc:You were the anchor.
Guest:And I dated Kevin.
Guest:We all dated Kevin.
Marc:You did?
Guest:But it was great because we stayed friends, and so it was no big deal.
Guest:It was great.
Marc:But Hurt, so are you friends with Hurt still, William?
Guest:I am when I see him.
Guest:It's that kind of friendship, but I don't have the kind of friendship that you call regularly.
Guest:My best friend is Mary Beth still.
Marc:Right, so you can't.
Guest:Oh, no, I can.
Guest:I mean, you know.
Marc:Everything's water under the bridge at this point.
Guest:For me, I mean, she didn't do anything to me.
Marc:No, but they don't get along, like Mary Beth and William.
Guest:Oh, I think they'd probably be civil, but no.
Marc:I just can't.
Marc:That whole crew, everybody seems so defined and he seems so intense.
Marc:I was kind of obsessed with him.
Guest:He was intense.
Guest:He was incredibly intense.
Guest:He and Larry had big fights because...
Guest:He wanted to stay looking like that drug dealer the whole movie because everybody said how beautiful he was.
Guest:And he was beautiful.
Guest:And he didn't want, I guess, he didn't want to clean up.
Guest:He had to be, you know.
Guest:So, but, of course, Larry won the fight.
Guest:But, no, it was so.
Guest:Larry made all of us be there forever.
Guest:all the time, even if we weren't working.
Guest:So we really... And we had a month of rehearsal at the Columbia lot before we did the movie.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:So you guys really knew each other.
Marc:I mean, that was the intent.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Other than those of us who had dated each other, we...
Guest:And there was an epilogue which we actually shot first down in Atlanta where we were all in the seedy old house that we shared on the campus of the University of Michigan.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But it was hard with the costumes, right?
Guest:No.
Guest:Well, I mean, you could say Jeff Goldblum all of a sudden had a huge beard because it was time when everybody was demonstrating.
Marc:And wasn't Costner in it at that time?
Marc:Was Kevin Costner in it?
Guest:Kevin Costner was alive!
Guest:You saw him alive.
Marc:He played the dead guy.
Marc:He's the dead guy.
Guest:He's the body in the beginning of the movie.
Guest:But I think it was because it opened up such a can of worms.
Guest:It was actually the part that made me weep when I read the script because it was a bunch of young friends who did not know what life was going to do to them.
Guest:Didn't know that one of them was going to die by suicide.
Guest:I always find that dynamic incredibly moving.
Guest:But I think it just opened up too much.
Guest:And no one's ever seen it.
Marc:The flashback.
Guest:The flashback, yeah.
Marc:It's interesting that he's kept it under wraps.
Marc:I guess he's got it.
Marc:I know he listens to this show sometimes.
Marc:I'm sure he does.
Marc:I know his kids.
Marc:I know Jake.
Guest:He's just the best.
Guest:He and Meg, his wife.
Marc:yeah they're wonderful people yeah so well obviously we can't go through every movie but it seems like i love the natural that's one of my i watch it whenever i can i don't i don't know what it is about that movie but i just love it i love it like and apparently i didn't realize that the end in the end he doesn't in the book he doesn't it's not he strikes out yeah
Guest:the difference between the movies and, and having, you can't have Robert Redford strike out, but also like, it wouldn't have been a hit if he striked out.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But I think Levinson was honoring, like he was very like, you know, whatever that book was meant to imply that this was a hero story from the beginning, you know, all the way, it's a Homeric tale.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So he's, he's got to hit the home run.
Guest:I mean, and what a moment, isn't it?
Guest:Fabulous.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And the music, it's just, it's a beautiful score.
Marc:Oh, it's amazing.
Marc:But like fatal attraction was this huge cultural phenomenon where you defined the worst fear of every man alive.
Marc:And it holds, I think.
Marc:Yeah, it does hold, yeah.
Marc:You set the standard.
Guest:Yeah, I'm proud of that.
Marc:Yeah, you are proud, right?
Guest:Hard to get dates, but I'm proud of fatal attraction.
Yeah.
Marc:It was a hell of a role.
Marc:I mean, how do you like how do you make that person a human?
Marc:What was what was my God?
Guest:That probably is the movie that I did most research on.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Because I wanted to know if her behavior was possible.
Guest:So I took that script to two different psychiatrists.
Guest:And it's it's amazing to me now that they didn't.
Guest:come up with any kind of mental illness or disorder.
Guest:But who I was playing from that research is somebody who had been incested at a very early age by her father.
Guest:There's all that weirdness about her father.
Guest:And when that happens, many people like that, I mean, a disturbing percentage will...
Guest:will do themselves in um this is a woman who was made into a sex object before she even knew what sex was right and then made to be feel uh it was secret and shameful so you have uh she was incapable of having a healthy relationship it's it's um and and
Guest:It triggered, I mean, that character was used by Dr. Gooderson, who has since passed, but he was kind of the guru of borderline personality disorder research.
Guest:He said that he used that as an extreme case of borderline, which could be triggered by what she had gone through in the past.
Guest:So I was playing a woman who was damaged and in need of help.
Guest:And acting, you know, kind of acting out.
Guest:For her, the last thing Alex Forrest was to me was a villain.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because it's interesting.
Guest:You don't get her backstory at all.
Guest:You don't, you know, you don't really understand.
Guest:There was also a scene that was cut out where she discovered she was actually pregnant.
Guest:She's not just so...
Marc:in that scene where I'm turning the light on and off that was we put that in to remind people that I was a human being in pain that should have been at the end of the movie anyway I could talk about it forever I think that's interesting that like the way culturally it gets framed is like you know what a monster where you know and I didn't feel that because it was played you know so emotionally truthfully
Guest:that you know she clearly had problems but you know she was not uh at fault in in in her emotional reaction to being used she originally she she killed herself which how should how that the original ending was that she's she cut her throat to to madam butterfly and uh god which is the opera that that
Guest:They didn't shoot the scene where she's at the opera and you see Madame Butterfly doing the same thing.
Guest:But anyway, it would not have been a hit if they hadn't changed the ending.
Guest:Changing the ending for me was a profound... I mean, it was profoundly difficult.
Guest:I learned from that the importance... What the audience...
Guest:you know, was crying for was catharsis, was closure.
Guest:And they wanted me, like Dangerous Liaisons, they wanted her punished more than, you know, it's like women who overkill because if he's alive, they'll kill her.
Guest:You know, it's just, people needed the assurance that order would be restored.
Guest:And that's what the new ending gave that movie.
Guest:And I think that's why it was a big hit.
Guest:yeah so you're not you don't you're not thrilled with that decision but you understand it i understand it it was very i fought against it for like three weeks i i said i won't do that to my character and then and then finally i was told as one would um it won't be released if we don't do another ending they had done a lot of testing it's kind of a famous incident the testing and all that
Marc:Well, so that when you dig in with like, you know, the with mama, how do you say it?
Marc:Mama Vance or somebody like, you know, Alex Forrest and stuff.
Marc:Then like, you know, you played Norma Desmond a lot.
Marc:Now, I guess there's a wealth of weird narcissistic sadness there that you have to play honestly as well.
Marc:Right.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:I hope to do her on film, and then I can put her to rest.
Guest:But, yes, I've always been attracted to people who believe in something that we know as an audience is unattainable.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But that belief, even if it's... I don't want to use crazy.
Yeah.
Guest:There's something noble about it.
Guest:There's something noble about it.
Guest:And also people, what's really, really important is that those characters don't have any self-pity.
Guest:There is nothing I hate more than self-pity.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's what I loved about the story of Albert Knobs, this woman who had this dream of finding love and having a little chocolate shop.
Guest:And we knew it would never happen, but her belief makes her heartbreaking.
Yeah.
Guest:And same with Norma Desmond.
Guest:Her belief finally does her in for all many different reasons.
Guest:But there's something incredibly moving about someone clinging to something that feeds them.
Guest:But we know that it's going to be a disaster.
Marc:yeah we're we're seeing it on the presidential level right now oh my god whoa not as heartbreaking that that story but but also like i i read that you you played blanche once i did in london so like there that that's another character what's it for you what was at the core of that character oh my god ptsd
Guest:I really, I thought, you know, again, I'm fascinated by the why of behavior.
Guest:So why was she like that?
Guest:She famously has that incredible speech about watching her lover or her fiancé, who is obviously gay, kill himself in front of her, put a gun to his head and blow his head off.
Guest:That is...
Guest:There's no trauma worse than that.
Guest:PTSD, if it's not treated, becomes only worse and people relive it in their minds.
Guest:So she heard the music that was playing.
Guest:She hears the gunshot and she starts self-medicating.
Guest:To me, that was Blanche Dubois.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:That makes sense.
Marc:Yeah, it made sense to me.
Marc:And so then is it just fun to play Cruella?
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Or do you infuse her with some sort of psychology?
Guest:Yeah, well, first of all, I was so thrilled to be a Disney witch after my childhood.
Guest:And knowing in fairy tales, kids have to know that there's darkness and that they can be rescued from it or that they can rescue themselves from it.
Guest:So I think...
Guest:The great fairy tales have children who don't have a mother because a mother would not let it happen.
Guest:And so I and and who who get there's a wicked witch or a wicked stepmother.
Guest:The fathers are usually not there or like.
Guest:very distant, like Bambi or Oblivious, like the Little Mermaid.
Guest:I mean, there's all these, so the father's not there.
Guest:And it's about rescuing the children and bringing them back into the light.
Guest:And that was, again, you know, instead of children, it was the Dalmatian puppies.
Guest:And I learned very early on that the
Guest:The meaner she was, the funnier she was.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you could really push it.
Guest:And the original movie has, I mean, this original movie that says, you know, poison them.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Drown them, poison them.
Guest:They didn't step back from doing the same stuff like that.
Marc:So what happens now?
Marc:We're all just waiting in COVID land.
Marc:Do you have work coming up?
Guest:I do.
Guest:And I've been here since February, so I'm kind of freaking out.
Marc:Are you going to go like, I just took a little part in a movie and I'm scared about the COVID thing.
Marc:I know, especially now.
Marc:It's worse than ever.
Marc:And now they're like, but they got protocols and stuff, but I'm still like, oh, fuck.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:What does that mean?
Marc:It's like, until they get a test that we can just do at home every morning, how do we, you know?
Marc:I know.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Are you going to go work?
Guest:I'm supposed to go down to L.A.
Guest:for 10 days to do a voice for an animated feature.
Marc:Oh, that's doable.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Just going to the bunker.
Marc:I guess.
Marc:That can be pretty clean.
Guest:And then, yeah, but you have to stay somewhere.
Guest:And anyway, then on the new year, I'm supposed to go.
Guest:Well, actually, I miss Christmas because I've got to go quarantine in Canada to do a movie.
Marc:Two weeks in Canada to quarantine?
Guest:Two weeks, absolute, absolute.
Guest:Vancouver?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's a great city.
Guest:Yeah, it is.
Marc:It's pretty.
Marc:It's like a toy city.
Marc:It looks like it was all built from the same box.
Guest:The human is, you know, I've done two movies there, you know, quite a while ago, but I really liked it.
Guest:It'll be interesting to go back.
Guest:I'm sure it's very different.
Marc:Yeah, I'd like to live there, I think.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well.
Marc:We'll see.
Guest:But anyway, they're very, very strict.
Guest:Well, that's good.
Guest:So I'm taking my pit, my dog.
Marc:And this movie's going to open up soon and people are going to be blown away.
Marc:Great job.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:On the hillbilly elegy.
Marc:It was nice talking to you.
Guest:It's nice talking to you.
Guest:Did we cover things that you wanted to cover?
Guest:We kind of got hung up in the beginning.
Marc:No, no, I think so.
Marc:Like, you know, usually like, you know, I like the beginning.
Marc:I think it's, you know, it's interesting to when you have the time to do a long conversation that some you kind of get a sense of how somebody either was put together or put themselves together.
Marc:So it all kind of reveals something.
Marc:And we covered a few movies, a few plays, your craft, your childhood, your shame, your sensitivity to psychological motivations to behavior, your physical choices, Montana, the presidency, working during COVID.
Marc:We've covered a lot briefly.
Guest:This is the first time I actually have come out
Guest:with a political opinion because I was very disillusioned
Guest:by Clinton, and I really worked for the first Clinton campaign, and then I thought, you know, ugh.
Guest:But this, you can't, I could not, I could not be silent.
Guest:Could not be silent, you know, so.
Marc:Yeah, it's, no, I mean, it's crazy.
Guest:No, it's, ugh.
Marc:Toxic, horrendous, it's like embarrassing, and it's sort of like, how is this fucking real?
Guest:The thing is that they've, you know, the Republicans have laid for years this groundwork.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:And they don't care about him.
Guest:He's just like, he's like, it's all about power, staying in power.
Marc:And also he's running like they're like, let him do his dance and we can chip away at the agenda.
Marc:We've been diligently working on for 30 years.
Guest:You know, our founding fathers, and many people feel that the Constitution, I mean, it's amazing that we still are adhering to it, but it's an old piece of writing.
Guest:But our founding fathers never banked on professional politicians.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:You know, you're supposed to go serve and go home.
Guest:And now they're these men that have to stay in power.
Guest:And to stay in power, they have to get money.
Guest:And to get money, they get corrupted.
Marc:Well, they knew that there would be problems with people who were politicians.
Guest:Yeah, and they tried to think of, you know.
Marc:I just talked to Heidi Schreck.
Marc:Have you seen that show?
Guest:Yes, and I listened to that.
Guest:I listened to that whole thing.
Guest:It was really, really great, yeah.
Marc:Did you go watch the show?
Guest:What an interesting woman.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Have you watched the show?
Marc:I went to her show on Broadway.
Marc:Oh, you did?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was so funny because the title of it was sort of alienating to me.
Marc:Yeah, it was.
Guest:I know.
Guest:When you said in the beginning, I don't want to go to school.
Guest:Yeah, no.
Guest:It's true.
Marc:But it was really great.
Guest:It was great.
Yeah.
Marc:I think this is an opportunity, hopefully, for all of us to sort of somehow not be complacent and have a deeper engagement with the civic process.
Guest:I really agree.
Guest:And what I really hope is that we should have some sort of truth and reconciliation.
Guest:We have to...
Guest:Now that the scab has been pulled off of the racism in this country, we have to address it.
Guest:And I think at that point, we will make our Constitution real for everyone.
Guest:Right now, it's not.
Guest:And it never has been because of the racism that has existed from the beginning.
Guest:That was my... You know, we're taught that it didn't really sink in until the whole Black Lives Matter movement, which is...
Guest:To validate ourselves and to finally kind of grow up in a way that sounds presumptuous to even say that.
Guest:But I mean that to to really have our Constitution truthful and meaningful and strong and important for all of us.
Guest:We have to deal with these issues and hopefully we'll have the enlightened leadership that will help us do that.
Marc:Yeah, and we can hold back authoritarianism for a while.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, we're not a pretty species in huge groups.
Guest:We're just not.
Marc:That can go, yes.
Marc:It could be an audience or it could be a political movement.
Guest:We can turn on a dime.
Marc:That's for sure.
Guest:All right.
Marc:Well, have a good rest of the day.
Guest:You too.
Guest:It's nice to meet you.
Guest:And congratulations on your podcast.
Guest:It's fascinating.
Guest:And, you know, I really believe in where you're coming from.
Guest:And I'm very honored to talk to you.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Thank you so much.
Marc:And I feel the same way.
Marc:Very honored to talk to you.
Marc:I've been a huge fan for a long time.
Guest:Thanks a lot.
Marc:See you later, Glenn.
Guest:Bye-bye.
Marc:Wasn't that surprising and good?
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Hillbilly Elegy with Glenn Close and Amy Adams is on Netflix now, directed by Ron Howard, who we talked to.
Marc:Go listen to that.
Marc:That was an enlightening talk.
Marc:All right, so let's... I'm playing clean, man.
Marc:I'm playing clean.
I'm playing clean.
Bye.
Thank you.
Marc:Boomer lives.
Marc:Monkey lives.
Marc:LaFonda lives.
Guest:I miss you, N. Shelton.
Thank you.