Episode 1162 - Barbara Kopple
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf trying not to freak out trying not to freak out barely holding on barbara copple
Marc:is on the show today she is a uh documentary filmmaker she did harlan county usa she did wild man blues she got a doc out about that uh solo singer sharon jones i just got a record of hers i don't know where i'm excited to listen to the record i had no idea but anyways she's got a new one out called desert one and we talk about that and the rest of it and
Marc:A sprint commercial that she directed in Texas, which I was in.
Marc:Here's the fucking thing about cats.
Marc:About owning a cat.
Marc:Those of you who aren't watching me on Instagram or haven't seen me dealing with this.
Marc:Is that Buster, I guess it was Monday.
Marc:My cat Buster, who we've been getting along pretty well.
Marc:He's an odd cat.
Marc:He's an intense cat.
Marc:But he, I don't know, somehow he was up on the couch and he jumped off the couch and one of his legs got tangled up in the cord for the blinds and it got really knotted up and tangled very quickly.
Marc:And he was flailing around, freaking out like cats in a panic do.
Marc:And I guess the intelligent thing would have been to just cut the goddamn cord.
Marc:But I did not.
Marc:I grabbed the cat and I tried to take, you know, get his, I grabbed him.
Marc:And then he just fucking chomped.
Marc:He just bit me between my thumb and my forefinger right on that fleshy part hard like his wife depended on it.
Marc:And I still had to get him out from this fucking being tied up.
Marc:So I grabbed his legs and I un-fucking tied him and he scurried off and had this massive puncturing cat bite on both sides of my hand.
Marc:And I cleaned it up and then I exercised and then it started to sort of like swell and there was fluid coming out and I'm like, fuck.
Marc:And then people on Instagram were freaking me out.
Marc:So I messaged my doctor three times.
Marc:I got a video appointment.
Marc:I got antibiotics.
Marc:I got on Augmentin.
Marc:you know, within 12 hours of getting this fucking bite.
Marc:And I've been on it for a couple of days.
Marc:Now there's a redness spreading.
Marc:And I just like, if I fucking die from a goddamn cat bite, the irony will be too much for me.
Marc:But if that's the way I got to go, that's the way I got to go.
Marc:It would make sense.
Marc:As ironic as it is, it's a perfectly appropriate way for me to die from a bacterial infection from my fucking cat.
Marc:I didn't realize I had heard the cat's mouths were garbage.
Marc:But Jesus, fuck, man.
Marc:I mean, the swelling seems a little better, but it's just I don't know.
Marc:I guess I'll wait another day.
Marc:What else can I do?
Marc:But I was laying in bed freaking out, reading the information, Googling the symptoms of cat bites, infections.
Marc:It's probably a bacterial infection.
Marc:But if you get sepsis, that can knock you out like 24 to 72 hours.
Marc:So then I'm sitting there the day of the cat bite thinking I'm going to die in my fucking bed from a cat bite.
Marc:I start to realize, like, this is one of the horrible things.
Marc:This is why people don't want to be alone, whether you like people or not.
Marc:This is why people stay in things that they may not want to be in because it's easier or whatever.
Marc:Bottom line, though, is if something goes wrong, there's an emergency.
Marc:You kind of want someone there to help out, call the place, do the thing like I did with Lynn.
Marc:Someone, you know, what happens?
Marc:Are you just going to lay there and die from a cat bite by yourself?
Marc:Jesus Christ.
Marc:I started thinking, like, have I even updated my emergency contacts?
Marc:How many are still in?
Marc:So fucking sad, man.
Marc:It was a sad spiral, a bad rabbit hole.
Marc:Me dying, fevered of sepsis in my bed.
Marc:Buster living, coming up to say hi in the morning, finding my corpse and realizing I did it.
Marc:Now the house is all mine.
Marc:So that's what's happening with me.
Marc:I'm just obsessed about my hand.
Marc:It does feel better.
Marc:I'm trying not to freak out.
Marc:I don't know if I would have freaked out if people didn't freak me out.
Marc:I guess that's the benefit and the curse of doing live Instagram chats and being relatively honest, is you get a lot of opinions.
Marc:But, you know, I got on the antibiotics pretty quickly.
Marc:We'll see.
Marc:Fuck it, man.
Marc:Fuck it.
Marc:What difference does it make?
Marc:On a lighter note, you know, I don't know...
Marc:I don't know if I saw The Karate Kid because I think it came out and I was too old for it.
Marc:I think it came out in the mid-80s.
Marc:I was already in college.
Marc:I was already snotty and watching art films and getting deep.
Marc:So I think it missed my generation.
Marc:I don't think I ever saw The Karate Kid.
Marc:But because I'm alone over here and I don't know what to do with myself, I got into watching Cobra Kai, which I guess was a YouTube production originally.
Marc:And now it's on Netflix and it's basically it's the Karate Kid characters grown up now, current day.
Marc:And I ended up watching all of them, got involved with the good and evil aspect.
Marc:You know, it's a little ridiculous, but there's something about the way that that guy, William Zabka, he, you know, he's the guy that plays Johnny Lawrence.
Marc:But just to see how they age these two guys is kind of genius.
Marc:And I think he does a great job playing the aging douchebag, bitter loser guy.
Marc:I think it's inspired, really.
Marc:Ralph Macchio is Ralph Macchio and he does a good job, too.
Marc:But there's something about the beaten dude that kind of kind of sucked me in.
Marc:And I found it to be relatively mindless, but enjoyable, emotionally moving entertainment fodder.
Marc:Watched all of them.
Marc:This isn't a plug.
Marc:I just maybe I related.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Maybe it just he really does it.
Marc:He does it.
Marc:He does a good job with the character.
Marc:So, you know, that's one thing that I've become more open to as covid.
Marc:Rips through the world and we become more isolated and I'm sad and, you know, in my grief and in my house and, you know, with the political situation, with the hopelessness, with everything else, I've become acutely sensitive to people's performances in almost anything.
Marc:acutely appreciative of uh of acting and the process of it i'm a little more aware of it having done a little bit myself but now i'm really watching to see how people show up for these roles and what they're doing with everything i'm watching it's kind of um i don't know what's causing it it's exciting maybe it's my need to escape
Marc:desperately as we all have because i i am i am tethered painfully to the to the present and to reality and every once in a while i get away here's a dumb story that happened to me i'll share it with you why not
Marc:So I'm walking around my neighborhood and going to a supermarket and down my street, there's a lime tree, right?
Marc:I'm pretty sure it was a lime tree.
Marc:I never noticed it before, but I'm walking back from the supermarket.
Marc:I see all these little limes and I'm like, wow, they're not going to eat all these limes.
Marc:And I look at the limes closer and I'm like, I've never seen limes like these.
Marc:These look really interesting.
Marc:The skin's different.
Marc:Must be a different breed of lime than I have.
Marc:My lime tree didn't do much this year.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Got sad.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It was just sort of like not into it.
Marc:See a few limes and that was the end of it.
Marc:But these limes looked weird.
Marc:They had a cool skin.
Marc:It was a deeper green.
Marc:I'm like, cool, man.
Marc:I'm just going to snag a few of these limes.
Marc:So I brought them home and I used them as limes and they tasted fine, like three or four of them.
Marc:And then yesterday I go back there and I'm like, grab some more of those weird, cool limes.
Marc:And so I picked some.
Marc:And as I was picking them, I realized like one of them was changing color up towards the top.
Marc:And I'm like, oh, man, these aren't limes.
Marc:This is an orange tree.
Marc:These are way unripe oranges.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:that I thought were cool-looking limes that I'd never seen before.
Marc:So I was basically using oranges that were just budding as limes.
Marc:I don't think it hurt me, but I did feel kind of stupid.
Marc:These aren't limes.
Marc:These are little unripe oranges.
Marc:But then there was that moment where I'm like, I could still use them as limes, right?
Marc:So I brought one home and I cut it open.
Marc:I'm like, maybe I shouldn't.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:But I wanted to hang on to the idea that they were limes, knowing really that they weren't.
Marc:And that muscle is why the world is ending.
Marc:So Barbara Koppel, it's interesting.
Marc:I think we go into it, the story of me when I was working years ago at Cap City in Texas in Austin, and she was just out casting this commercial.
Marc:I think she was a fan of mine.
Marc:She came to the show.
Marc:She was like one of 10 people in this club.
Marc:And I remember she booked me on a spring commercial because I remember her coming up and asking me,
Marc:Do you do commercials?
Marc:I'm like, I don't usually.
Marc:Is it selling out if you actually use the product?
Marc:That was the big philosophical question back then.
Marc:But as I said earlier, she's made a lot of great documentaries.
Marc:Her newest one, Desert One, is playing now on most video on-demand platforms and in virtual cinemas.
Marc:You can check out desertonemovie.com to find out all your options to see it.
Marc:I enjoyed it.
Marc:I thought it was an interesting subject, one that's not explored that much, which is basically American Failure.
Marc:militarily and I thought she handled it beautifully and I thought it was a great film and this is me talking to her and kind of pressing her for some reason I think I misunderstand documentaries sometimes or the intention or what they're supposed to be but she straightens me out this is me talking to Barbara Koppel music music music music
Guest:Hi, Mark.
Marc:Hi, Barbara.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:I haven't seen you since we were in Texas.
Guest:I know.
Guest:That was so amazing, wasn't it?
Marc:I'm trying to remember exactly how it went down.
Marc:I remember I was doing a show.
Marc:I was at Cap City Comedy Club.
Marc:I was in the front room because I didn't sell enough tickets to be in the back room.
Marc:There must have been nine people in that audience.
Guest:I was one of them.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you're with another woman.
Guest:Yes, she was from the ad agency.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you came up to me and you said, do you do commercials?
Marc:I said, not usually.
Marc:What's it for?
Marc:And you said sprint.
Marc:And I said, well, I use sprint.
Marc:So maybe it wouldn't be so bad.
Marc:What is it?
Marc:Is that how you remember it?
Guest:I remember it.
Guest:Yeah, I remember coming up to you and saying, I was watching you and blown away.
Guest:And I just thought, I just want it.
Guest:We're casting.
Guest:I want him.
Guest:And thank goodness you said yes.
Marc:Is that why you went to the comedy club?
Guest:No, I wanted to see you.
Guest:No, I just went.
Guest:I mean, there I was.
Guest:What was I going to do in that area?
Guest:Right.
Marc:And then the next day, I remember being at a school field and making children cry.
Guest:Yes, and I got in trouble for making children cry.
Guest:The woman who was head of the spot, even though that's what they wanted me to do, said, if she makes another child cry, I'm going to scream.
Guest:And I said...
Guest:Okay.
Marc:I think I went a little overboard.
Marc:My recollection is you were telling me in the earpiece to get reactions from the kids.
Marc:And I said to one of the kids, I asked him if he liked Harry Potter.
Marc:And the kid said, yes.
Marc:And I said, well, he dies in the next movie.
Marc:And he cried.
Marc:That's what I remember.
Guest:Yeah, there was a lot of crying for all of those sprint spots.
Guest:I did a whole lot of them at that school.
Guest:I think it was a Christian school.
Guest:So the kids were very obedient.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, I remember sitting at lunch with the crew and they would not sit with me.
Marc:They would not look at me.
Marc:They were like, you know, that's that monster making kids cry.
Guest:Oh, I didn't know that.
Marc:It's all right.
Marc:I recovered from it.
Guest:But I loved it.
Guest:I love that you did it.
Guest:And I thank you.
Marc:I thank you.
Marc:I'm sure I could use the money.
Marc:I wasn't selling tickets, clearly.
Marc:So let me ask you a question about this, about the new doc.
Marc:We can sort of start there.
Marc:You know, this desert one, I watched it.
Guest:I like what you have.
Guest:I like what you give me shelter.
Guest:That was one of the first things films I worked on with the Maisel brothers.
Marc:I know I have the big poster back here.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That was for the the reissue of the that was for the new print, the restored print.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I want to talk about that, too.
Marc:But I'm curious about, you know, this desert one, which is about the botched Iranian hostage rescue attempt.
Marc:Like, why this this film now?
Guest:Well, the History Channel was going to do 100 different feature length documentaries about little known pieces of history that people really hadn't seen.
Guest:I mean, people saw the hostage crisis, but they really never saw the mission because it was a secret mission.
Marc:And it failed.
Yeah.
Guest:And yes, it totally failed.
Guest:Murphy's law.
Guest:If anything could go wrong, everything.
Marc:But I think that's what's interesting about, you know, the you know, the times we live in and the timing of the thing is that, you know, American failure is this weird sort of shameful thing.
Marc:And I thought that was what was sort of fascinating about it.
Marc:But I'm sorry to interrupt the History Channel.
Guest:No, you can interrupt anytime you want.
Guest:But anyway, they only ended up doing four or five of them.
Guest:And one of the on the list was Desert One.
Guest:And we saw it and we thought, this is incredible.
Guest:It's very challenging.
Guest:Plus, we have to figure out how to make the mission come alive because there was not one photograph, not anything of it.
Marc:Except for the wreckage on the Iranian side.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes, definitely.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Later they had the wreckage.
Guest:They kept the wreckage.
Marc:Right.
Marc:They kept the wreckage, but also they put some stuff on the news with the bodies and, you know, that they somehow framed it as a victory that God had had had helped them in this botched attempt.
Guest:And they still are.
Guest:Every April 24th, they built a mosque on that site and they sing songs about their triumph.
Marc:Yeah, I thought it was very interesting.
Marc:It reminded me like like the sort of seeing documentaries like watching Ken Burns Vietnam, where he was able to to sort of really get in to and speak to the Viet Cong
Marc:and North Vietnamese fighters was, to me, profound.
Marc:And in the same way that in Desert One, you're talking to Iranian nationals who were there for the revolution, believed in the revolution, took part in the revolution, and now part of mainstream politics in Iran.
Marc:And they're willing to talk about this from their experience.
Guest:Well, they're very hard line, except they totally believe in it, except for this one young man
Guest:man that we found.
Guest:Um, I didn't go to Iran because they wouldn't let us in.
Guest:So we had a female crew, Iranian female crew, which was great.
Guest:And they went to this small village near Tabas and found this, um,
Guest:who was 11 years old, he had always gone with his family on a bus.
Guest:Once a year, the whole family went on a bus on a vacation.
Guest:And they just happened to roll right into the whole military scene, the military mission.
Guest:And they were stopped.
Guest:They were held as hostages.
Guest:And when...
Guest:All he wanted, though, he was telling us this story as if he was 11 years old again.
Guest:And what he wanted to do was get home safe so he could tell all his friends about this exciting thing that he had seen.
Guest:It was crazy.
Guest:But I thought that was remarkable because there's so much commonality in that.
Guest:We would do the same thing.
Guest:Right.
Marc:He didn't know what was going on, but it was cool.
Marc:it was unbelievably cool yeah for an 11 year old well that was just like the first domino to fall first they can't get the the two helicopters through and then they only got six going in and they find this empty lake bed that with this dirt road through it and all of a sudden out of nowhere this bus with 50 people where one family comes just driving into this operation where they've just landed
Marc:three planes and all these helicopters it was crazy and then it just goes worse and worse from there until tragedy until horrible things happen and like I had no idea about that stuff I you know I didn't I didn't remember it and the thing you didn't
Marc:Linger on too long was the idea of whether or not the timing of it.
Marc:Did Reagan sort of through back channels stop Khomeini from releasing the hostages until after he was inaugurated?
Marc:I would say that judging by the work that you guys did, he probably didn't.
Guest:Oh, I don't know.
Guest:I think he could have.
Guest:Yeah, I think he could have.
Guest:I just found out from Ambassador Limbert that his campaign manager went to Mexico and met with Iranians.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Supposedly, I just found this out in the last few days.
Guest:It's a little late.
Guest:He said, you'll get a better deal from us.
Guest:And Khomeini, of course, wanted to humiliate President Carter because he was taking care of the Shah for medical reasons.
Marc:Yeah, but he wanted to do that anyways.
Guest:Yeah, but this was the last this was, you know, the last blasted Carter.
Guest:One minute after Reagan was inaugurated, the hostages were released.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:He wanted to humiliate.
Marc:What I'm thinking, the sticking point for me is that he wanted to humiliate Carter either way.
Marc:So it behooved him to wait either way.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And this would be beautiful.
Guest:Reagan would be in and boom, Reagan could announce the hostages are free.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You know, the thing that had just ripped apart President Carter.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But that could have happened without Reagan.
Marc:Like, I mean, he didn't have to get involved.
Marc:It seemed like Khomeini would have done it, you know, was sharp enough to wait.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Probably would have done it either way.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I have a question for you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which is, what was it like to interview Barack Obama?
Guest:Was it just wonderful?
Guest:Because I know I've interviewed President Carter in this film.
Guest:So how did were you nervous?
Guest:Were you how was it?
Marc:Well, for me, it was a little more structured than I'm used to doing.
Marc:And we only had an hour and it was a big deal.
Marc:I was more nervous that I wouldn't be able to do the type of interview I do, that there was sort of a lot of because I do personal interviews, you know, and I didn't want to get into the weeds with politics, really, because anybody could do that.
Marc:And certainly he can.
Marc:You know, that's a it's it's a way for him to be evasive.
Marc:And kind of boring.
Marc:So it was really the trick was to figure out where I wanted to go with him.
Marc:I used the time efficiently, cover what was necessary to be covered, but still get a sense of who he was.
Marc:So, you know, very quickly, I found him to be very disarming.
Marc:And I and, you know, it did just become a couple of people, a couple of guys talking, which was the best I could hope for.
Marc:So in that way, it was surprising in that he was sort of pretty down to earth, really.
Guest:And how did you do it?
Guest:I mean, did it take a long time for you to get him?
Marc:No, because, you know, we had we were open to it.
Marc:It was their idea.
Marc:You know, you know, they you know, it was you know, he was on the verge of becoming somewhat of a lame duck.
Marc:It was in the last year of his of his last term.
Marc:And, you know, and I think they were like, this would be good if he does this.
Marc:But, you know, coincidentally and horribly, you know,
Marc:You know, there was that horrendous shooting that Dylan Roof guy shot up that church and killed all those people like days before, you know, we interviewed him.
Marc:And, you know, we thought it was certainly going to be canceled.
Marc:But, you know, he chose to continue.
Marc:You know, he came and we had to address certain things around around race and around guns and around violence.
Marc:And and that became the most of the politics we talked about, which is good because it's not really politics.
Marc:It's it's it's, you know, it's human emotion.
Marc:It's human horror.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Now, let me ask you about that, because like after watching, I've talked to a few documentarians and I've watched your stuff from way back.
Marc:I watched I rewatched Harlan County.
Marc:And what is it that why do people who make documentaries feel like they need to use animation now?
Marc:When did that happen?
Guest:Well, I had to use it.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I know.
Guest:There are no photographs.
Guest:There was no footage.
Guest:There was no nothing.
Guest:All I could do was, you know, listen to what the guys told me.
Guest:And then we had to recreate it.
Guest:And we had an Iranian animator.
Guest:We got all the history books out to see what helicopters looked like then and see one.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:And we did it absolutely to perfection.
Guest:It was the only way in which we could tell the story.
Guest:And what was really incredible is that the guys said, how did you do this?
Guest:This is exactly as we remember it.
Marc:You mean the American soldiers?
Guest:Yeah, the American soldiers.
Marc:I found that stuff very moving, how this haunted those guys.
Marc:The failure of it, that it was out of their control and that decisions were made, but most of the failure was just botched shit.
Marc:It wasn't anyone's fault, really.
Marc:They did everything they could.
Marc:It seemed like they were bailing on it
Marc:You know, when the shit went down, they were bailing on it because they were one of the helicopters was fucked up.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Well, they could they only could have six helicopters that had to be working that they didn't.
Guest:They had five.
Guest:So three of the helicopters went down.
Guest:But it's interesting because the hostages.
Guest:didn't know anything about it.
Guest:They thought that they were abandoned and that nobody was coming to help them or to do anything.
Guest:And one of them, Ambassador John Limbert, found a newspaper and he spoke the language and he read it and read about the botched mission.
Guest:But to him, they were heroes and it spread throughout all the hostages that these people risked their lives to try to save them.
Guest:So they didn't feel alone.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It was a crazy mission idea.
Marc:Like the fact that they tried it was crazy.
Marc:I mean, it seemed like such a tricky like with the technology where it's at today, they couldn't have even thought to do that.
Guest:No, it was so many moving parts.
Guest:And plus, for me, being able to film President Carter, unlike you getting to film Obama, it took me three months to be able to do that.
Marc:Well, we didn't really film him.
Marc:We just talked to him.
Guest:Well, I meant to talk to him.
Marc:But what did you find?
Marc:How did you find him?
Marc:What's your memory of him as a president?
Marc:Because I feel like I was...
Marc:I was not really politically awake at that time.
Marc:What year was that?
Marc:Was it 19?
Guest:The seven days.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I was in high school.
Marc:I knew him.
Marc:I knew the image of him.
Marc:I knew the peanut farmer.
Marc:I knew the nice guy thing.
Marc:I knew my my mother liked him.
Marc:But what did you feel about him?
Guest:Oh, well, going back to that place, it's hard to go back to that place.
Guest:But also how I feel about him now for meeting him and being with him.
Guest:It was around the time he was the president around the time that Harlan County came out.
Marc:Right.
Right.
Guest:And also, to me, he's such a diplomat.
Guest:He's such a humanitarian.
Guest:And even now in his old age, he still goes, you know, he's in planes and he still goes and he helps people with houses.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's just an incredible human being when you compare him to others.
Guest:what our world is today life is so different life is you know you're always on edge you always feel like you're walking on broken glass because you don't know what this leadership is going to do what's their next move there is no leadership there's right there's there's intentional chaos yeah yeah there's an egomaniac
Marc:Yeah, it's a vacuum of it's terrible.
Marc:But I mean, I felt that with with Obama, too, that he's a very grounded guy and a thoughtful guy and a decent guy that was trying to to sort of, you know, balance out the nature of the power he had and also sort of nurture democracy.
Marc:You know, it is a tough management position to be a president.
Marc:to manage corporate interests, military interests, the interests of the people, and to figure out how to move forward through this system that is certainly not perfect, but it is what it is.
Guest:Yeah, for Carter, they said the only way you can talk to him is if you get in touch with a guy named Phil Wise at the Carter Center.
Guest:So I used to call Phil Wise and he would never call me back and his voicemail would go, howdy, this is Phil Wise and I'm not in right now, leave a message for me.
Guest:So I decided I would have this relationship with his voicemail.
Guest:So I called him every three or four days.
Guest:For three months.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We shot this today.
Guest:We have to have Carter because of A, B and C. Gotta let us do it.
Guest:And then one day my cell phone rang and this guy goes, howdy, this is Phil Wise.
Guest:And I went, yeah, I'd know your voice anywhere.
Guest:And he said, okay, Barbara, we've decided we're going to let you film.
Guest:He said, you only have 20 minutes and February 14th is the date.
Guest:Nah.
Guest:OK, Valentine's Day.
Guest:So I went and I got the best chocolates I could find to give to President Carter.
Guest:I've been in South Sudan and the women had made these crystal hearts.
Guest:And so I brought a red heart for the first lady.
Guest:And it was just an extraordinary interview.
Guest:I mean, he doesn't like to talk very much about this because it's a failure.
Marc:And did he give you more than 20?
Guest:19 minutes and 47 seconds.
Marc:No shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:See, that's so tricky about these guys.
Marc:But even him, I mean, you know, obviously he could have given you more time.
Guest:They wouldn't let him because his handlers had everything sort of parsed out for him.
Marc:In terms of how to frame the thing?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I couldn't even give him the chocolates in the heart because that would have come off my time.
Guest:So I had to give it to one of his assistants to give to him.
Marc:So many years later, what were they afraid of, do you think?
Guest:I think making him go through this kind of anguish.
Guest:And a friend of mine, Bernie Aronson, who was Mondale's speechwriter, said, Barbara, you're not going to get anything emotional out of this guy.
Guest:He's just not going to do it.
Guest:And so I said, yes, I will.
Guest:I said, I'll bet you dinner.
Guest:And so I went and
Guest:He was really emotional.
Guest:I mean, when he talked, when I asked him about how did you feel when these eight men died?
Guest:What was that like for you?
Guest:And he just said, I was heartbroken.
Guest:What do you mean?
Guest:What do you mean you are heartbroken?
Guest:He said, well, my father died when I was very young.
Guest:And he said, I never thought I'd have to go through those terrible feelings again.
Guest:So it was it was very moving.
Guest:I mean, I was like very moved to to interview him and to be there with him.
Guest:And also, you know, to film Vice President Mondale, who was one of the few at that time, you know, vice presidents who was really into foreign affairs.
Guest:So it was a very interesting piece to do.
Marc:Yeah, no.
Marc:And I thought you had all those recordings as well, which were great.
Marc:You know, the sort of transmissions between the general, you know, who was, you know, the liaison for the military operation and Vice President Mondale and President Carter was.
Marc:Yeah, I just, you know, I I'd sort of I don't know if I ever know.
Marc:I guess no one really knows that story.
Marc:We all know about the hostages.
Guest:We don't know about the mission.
Guest:And it was also the beginning of Ted Koppel and Nightline and.
Guest:You know, I think Carter said to Ted Koppel, there were only two people who got anything out of this.
Guest:And that was you with Nightline and Khomeini.
Guest:You were the only two successes as far as I'm concerned.
Marc:So like when approaching, you've done like dozens of documentaries at this point.
Marc:And I see the form evolving to a certain degree sometimes.
Marc:As a form, it seems like everybody thinks they can do it, but they can't.
Guest:That I agree with.
Guest:It's huge.
Guest:It takes the life out of you, but yet gives you so much energy.
Guest:I mean, it's sort of like you doing all these interviews where you put...
Guest:everything into it to try to get people to be relaxed and to spill everything not go into the weeds but really talk about things and that takes a lot of energy it takes a lot of thought it takes a lot of research it's you know to really be able to connect and to bring things out about people for sure and like how did you like what did you like you grew up in new york
Guest:I grew up in Scarstown, New York.
Marc:Ah, Westchester, right?
Guest:Westchester in a home that was so filled with love.
Guest:It was amazing.
Guest:Everything was for the children.
Guest:My parents were generous of spirit.
Guest:You could talk to them about anything, no matter what.
Guest:And all they wanted was, you know, happiness.
Guest:And I think for us,
Marc:And they were supportive and encouraging and what, like, what was your.
Guest:So supportive, so encouraging.
Guest:Um, I was just so lucky.
Guest:I mean, I think that what happened is that, uh, because I was so protected as a child, I was able as an adult to go do things that were a lot more dangerous.
Guest:And in effect, my son is the same way.
Guest:Um, um,
Guest:I brought him up in a home that had so much love and so much protection and kept him in a bubble.
Guest:And now he's an essential worker.
Guest:He's a psychiatrist at Mount Sinai, you know, during COVID.
Guest:And he does he works 12 days out of two weeks and tells me unbelievable stories.
Guest:He has to sometimes talk to families of people who are coming off the ventilator.
Guest:And so it's it's sort of interesting, the turns that you take in the corners that you take, depending on your background.
Marc:And so was it like you grew up Jewish?
Guest:Jewish.
Marc:And what did your dad do?
Guest:Reform Jew.
Guest:Reform Jew.
Marc:You were early on the Reform Jew thing.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:I feel like they didn't even exist until the 60s or 70s.
Marc:Oh, no.
Guest:My parents were Reform Jews.
Guest:I mean, we didn't celebrate Hanukkah.
Guest:We had a Christmas tree, but it wasn't the religious part of the Christmas tree.
Guest:They just thought it was beautiful along with my grandparents.
Marc:Yeah, my mom bought a, she had a couple of Christmas trees.
Marc:She liked Christmas lights.
Marc:But I think we were categorically conservative Jews.
Marc:For me, the difference was always like in the Reform Temple, it wasn't unusual for the cantor to play guitar.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Anything goes.
Guest:It's true.
Guest:And lots of singing and, you know, screwing around.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And what did your dad do?
Guest:My dad worked in textiles.
Guest:He was a converter.
Guest:And my mom was a housewife.
Marc:A textile converter.
Marc:What is that?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:It means that you take material and you redesign it.
Marc:Oh, interesting.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But they were like intellectual people.
Marc:They liked the arts.
Guest:Yes, they read.
Guest:They had lots of friends, the arts.
Guest:My mother's first cousin was a guy named Murray Burnett who wrote a play called Everybody Comes to Rick's, which became Casablanca.
Marc:Did you know that guy?
Guest:Yes, I did.
Marc:He was probably old by the time you remember him.
Guest:He was old, but I still knew him.
Marc:It's funny when you grow up in Jewish families on the East coast, you know, and someone has, there's a gathering.
Marc:There's always someone who's like a hundred years old sitting in a chair.
Guest:He wasn't quite that old, but good.
Guest:Let's keep them at a hundred.
Guest:I mean, this extraordinary woman that I know who was a film producer named Lucy Jarvis just died at a
Guest:102 years old and she was amazing she was the first woman to ever go to the soviet union to russia and film she was the first woman to film in the louvre and film in china and she just had an extraordinary life and you know i think she was one of my mentors she started unions at nbc for assistant editors and editors just such a force and she just died a few months ago so
Marc:Wow.
Marc:That's a good run with a productive life.
Guest:And she was so great because we'd go out to dinner and she could care less what she said.
Guest:She would say terrible things and scream them in the restaurant about Trump and everything else.
Guest:And we would all just sit at the table and laugh hysterically as all the people around us would be shocked and the waiters.
Guest:And we'd say, listen,
Guest:She's almost 102 now.
Guest:She's going to say whatever she wants.
Guest:You're lucky she's talking to you.
Marc:So it was great.
Marc:Take it.
Marc:She's seen things.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:What compelled you to get you?
Marc:When did you know that, you know, somehow that like you didn't study, did you study film in college or no?
Guest:No, clinical psychology.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:So what, why were you interested in that at that time?
Marc:What was it that, that made you interested in film or psychology?
Guest:Well, it's very similar to what I do now because it's what makes people tick.
Marc:No, I get it.
Guest:It's figuring out who they are.
Guest:And my son is a psychiatrist.
Marc:No, I get it.
Marc:But like, you know, when you're younger, you know, what, you know, what sort of drives you to make that decision?
Marc:What I love.
Guest:Well, it was during it was, you know, during also the late 60s, early 70s.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Everybody was, you know, marching against the war in Vietnam and.
Guest:really understanding and thinking that, you know, our generation had all this power to change things and to do things and for me to be able to really sink in and talk to people and see people who, you know, they had given lobotomies to or given, you know, because I had a six month work study program at Northeastern, which is in Boston.
Guest:But it was it was right up my alley because I just wanted to understand the times, understand the people.
Marc:You talk to people that had lobotomies.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:We're at the hospital at Medfield State Hospital.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I had a six month work study.
Marc:And so at that time, were they still doing lobotomies?
Guest:They were just ending it.
Guest:Frederick Wiseman's film came out, you know, around that time, Titty Cut Follies, and nobody was allowed to see it.
Guest:I mean, I think because they said it took away the rights of the people in the institution.
Guest:So I think it showed in one theater.
Guest:And that really motivated me, too.
Marc:Was that a documentary?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So that was the thing that provided the information that that lobotomies were sort of inhumane?
Guest:Yes, quite.
Guest:Yes, it did.
Guest:You just saw how they were treated and what happened to them.
Guest:And it was something that was readily done to people.
Marc:So so it sounds like to me that, you know, as you're moving towards some sort of clinical psychology degree or life, that that movie was the turning point.
Guest:Yeah, that said to me, wow, this is something that I can do and I can get out the word about who people are.
Marc:Facilitate change too, eh?
Guest:And facilitate change and just be on this unbelievable cultural, political, and humanitarian journey.
Marc:So you got a degree in clinical psychology?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then what happens?
Guest:And then I came to New York and I was taking a course in cinema verite at the new school.
Guest:And there was a woman named Angela who sat next to me and she said, I work for these people named the Maisel brothers and they're looking for an intern.
Guest:There's no money.
Guest:There's no nothing.
Guest:Would you be interested?
Guest:I said, are you kidding?
Guest:I would love it.
Marc:You knew him already.
Yeah.
Guest:I knew who they were.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:And so I started working with them, Albert and David, and they were so remarkable.
Marc:What were they working on when you took the job?
Guest:Salesman.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Four door-to-door Bible salesman.
Guest:And I remember, you know, for the premiere, because I felt I knew them so well from seeing the film.
Guest:When I saw them at the premiere, I went up and gave them a big hug and
Guest:They went, who are you?
Guest:And I had to try to explain to them what it was about.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I worked for the masals.
Guest:I also worked a little on Gimme Shelter.
Guest:um i was the person who like carried david's audio tapes and i was the human tripod for albert because he got on the sound recorder sky's shoulders um stan goldstein and my job was to hold them up so he could shoot at altamont no this was in madison square garden i didn't go to altamont that was the first show
Marc:So the Madison Square Garden show, like it's my understanding of that film that it was meant to be sort of a kind of a positive sort of almost promotional documentary about the Stones.
Guest:Well, it was supposed to tell their story, but Albert and David didn't know what they were getting into when they went to Altamont.
Guest:And I don't think anybody also had problems with the Hells Angels as well.
Marc:They did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They went to see the Hells Angels because they had all this footage about them.
Guest:And I think Albert got punched.
Marc:oh really yeah well i mean that that seems uh relatively um uh they got off easy uh they did get off because i mean the you know the angels are you know they could have put a death threat on them who the hell knows but so but you were at that so you saw the stones at madison square garden and what was that 69 66 what was it 69 um and good show
Guest:It was a great show.
Guest:And I remember they all went, since I was the low person on the totem pole, they all went out to eat and they said, okay, Barbara, you guard all the equipment.
Guest:So I'm just standing there guarding all the equipment.
Guest:And then this guy stands next to me and it's Mick Jagger.
Guest:I'm figuring, okay, what am I going to say to him?
Guest:So I said, so you think a lot of people will come tonight?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he said, yeah.
Guest:And I said, are you excited?
Guest:And he said, yeah, Tina Turner is going to be singing with us.
Guest:So I had the best time of all because I got to have a conversation with Mick Jagger.
Guest:Oh, I'll never forget that.
Marc:Nice guy.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Was he a nice guy?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We had we stood and talked with me for a while.
Guest:We just, you know.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He's a real charmer, that Jagger.
Guest:He was.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was so happy I was guarding that equipment.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I got to have that experience.
Marc:So what so how long did it what how did the Harlan County sort of start to materialize?
Marc:Did they offer you?
Marc:How did you leave the Maisels?
Marc:What what happened?
Guest:Oh, well, I left the measles because I got a job as an assistant editor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the editor would go out to lunch and he'd say, OK, Barbara, here's an hour.
Guest:I want you to cut this to 20 minutes by the time I get back.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:That was your job.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was great.
Guest:And so I started to really learn how to tell a story through editing.
Guest:He really helped me.
Marc:That's the whole thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I remember I was listening to NPR radio and they had this whole story about how a coal miner was going to be running against W.A.
Guest:Tony Boyle, who was the head of the United Mine Workers.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so...
Guest:I just thought, wow, what a great story.
Guest:And I was able to get a loan of $12,000 and off I went to the coalfields.
Guest:That's how it started.
Marc:It was about the miners for democracy at the beginning.
Marc:Versus
Guest:the corrupt president who was later found guilty of the murder of Jock Yablonski, his wife and daughter.
Guest:Jock Yablonski was running against him and he didn't want to lose his power.
Guest:So he had a hit a hit on them and killed Yablonski, his wife and daughter.
Marc:And this is the guy supposed to be representing the miners.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:W.A.
Guest:Tony Boyle.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was the president of the United Mine Workers.
Guest:So.
Guest:Then Arnold Miller got into power and he said, okay, I'm going to organize the unorganized.
Guest:I went, okay, let's see if he's telling the truth.
Guest:His first place that he was going to do was Harlan County.
Guest:Of course, I went to Harlan County and
Guest:lived there for, you know, more than 13 months for the, for the strike.
Guest:And for me, it was one of the most significant moments.
Guest:I learned what life and death was all about.
Guest:I learned so much about these people who were willing to risk their lives for what they believed in.
Marc:Which was to be treated like humans.
Guest:Yeah, to get a decent wage, safety in the mines, that kind of thing.
Guest:They lived in dire poverty.
Marc:And is it different?
Marc:Is it that much different now?
Guest:Well, there's very little coal mining now.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I think the union has maybe 25,000 members.
Guest:And so it is different.
Marc:This president really wanted to bring it back.
Guest:Yes, I know.
Marc:End the world as quickly as possible.
Guest:Yes, I know.
Marc:It's interesting, though.
Marc:Like, did you find like like if you think back on that on Harlan County or on on the culture of coal mining, you know, that there was I mean, that was the 70s.
Marc:But there seems to be like this generational commitment to it that that that somehow, you know, kind of added to the anger, added to the poverty, added to like this idea that for some reason there was no other thing that they could do.
Marc:What do you think that comes from?
Guest:I don't think it was that there was no other thing that they could do, but jobs were scarce, but your grandfather worked in the mines, your father worked in the mines and therefore you worked in the mines.
Guest:And it was something that they did with great pride.
Guest:Also the music of Appalachia was incredible because coal miners were geographically isolated and you would be able to, um,
Guest:communicate with each other through the music, you know, the Mannington mine explosion or anything that happened.
Guest:And so it was culture.
Guest:It was tradition.
Guest:We would sit on the porches at night and people would tell stories or people would play music and sing.
Guest:And, you know, it was incredible.
Guest:Everybody was right next to each other all the time.
Guest:And we left with the coal miners.
Marc:And they grew to trust you.
Marc:And once they figured out what you were doing and you were able to sort of commit, that's a big chunk of life to commit to an outcome that you weren't sure of.
Marc:But either way, you were sort of able to show the humanity of the situation.
Guest:Yeah, but it didn't matter to me.
Guest:Yeah, I wasn't there thinking about what an outcome would be.
Guest:I was thinking about I'm getting to document these people who are some of the most incredible people I've ever met in my life.
Marc:But I have to assume at a certain point you wanted things to work out for them.
Guest:Oh, yes.
Guest:Of course, I wanted things to work out.
Marc:That was an outcome you'd like to see.
Guest:Oh, absolutely.
Guest:And it didn't.
Guest:I mean, it did and it didn't.
Guest:A miner was killed by a company foreman.
Guest:And that's how they got their contract, because everybody got their guns and there would have been, you know, massacres.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:And this is like in the 70s.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was just, you know, this little kid, you know, going for it.
Marc:And you got you went for it.
Marc:You won an Oscar for it.
Marc:And how did that inform your vision?
Marc:I mean, after you had that experience and you and you gained some, you know, you got some, you know, you got your documentary chops going because the movie looks great still.
Marc:And it's like that was the thing that really struck me, too, about watching contemporary documentaries versus documentaries from that period where you really relied on on the subject matter to sort of, you know, and also a patience and an ability to capture it.
Marc:And, you know, using film.
Marc:I mean, Jesus, I mean, that must have been crazy.
Guest:It was crazy.
Marc:I mean, you're you're switching out the magazines and you're reloading shit.
Marc:And, you know, you've got it.
Marc:You've got to get this.
Marc:It's not disposable like it is now.
Guest:No, and I did the sound.
Guest:I did sound for 17 years on my film.
Guest:But yeah, and then we would bring the film outside of the area when we had enough film and we would place it at, we rented a motel room far away and just put the film in there.
Guest:And just, you know, and when I would run out of film, I would call my parents.
Guest:My parents would send me film and I would send this film to my father's office and he would put it in his refrigerator for safekeeping.
Marc:Were you afraid that the that that thugs were going to come take the movie?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I wanted to make sure that nothing happened to it.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:And so after after that experience, what was your goal?
Marc:What was your agenda in terms of what you were putting into the world?
Marc:Because, I mean, that did shine a light on something that a lot of people didn't know about, you know, shined a light on on a struggle that a lot of people didn't know about.
Marc:I think a lot of people knew about, you know, unions and about, you know, how they were being squeezed.
Marc:But but what was, you know, from that point on, what were you what was your vision?
Marc:How did it influence it?
Guest:Well, I didn't know if this was a good film or not.
Guest:I just knew that I loved it.
Guest:And one of my mentors, D.A.
Guest:Penny Baker, I had him show a screening of the film.
Guest:I begged him.
Guest:I said, you know, would it be possible for you to show a screening of this film?
Guest:And he brought all the people to the screening that I totally revered.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like Charlotte's Warren and Susan Steinberg and a lot of other people.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And they really liked it.
Guest:But I was so afraid.
Guest:I mean, my stomach was in knots as to what that would be like.
Guest:And the film was finished one day before it was going to have its premiere at the New York Film Festival.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:And I remember, you know, sort of picking up the 16 millimeter print and saying,
Guest:thinking three years or four years of my life for this and bringing it to the New York Film Festival, which was incredible.
Guest:And I had the miners and their wives come and Hazel Dickens, who did the music.
Guest:And I Xeroxed song sheets of the last song of the film, They'll Never Keep Us Down, and passed it out.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:to the entire audience.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then Hazel came out at the end and sang and the coal, the women and the coal miners came out and sang and, um, Lois Scott, who had just been made president of the black lung association, um, which is you get from coal dust in your lungs, pneumocomiosis.
Guest:She started raising money from, um,
Guest:The audience and people were throwing $10 bills and $20 bills.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:And I was like in a corner laughing.
Guest:And she said, Barbara, she didn't realize she was Mike.
Guest:She said, Barbara, you pick up that money.
Guest:We need it.
Guest:Put it a stick it in your bra so I can have it later.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Richard Rad, who is the head of the film festival, said, all right, Barbara, next year you'll do it, you know, on roller skates.
Guest:I said, that might be fun.
Guest:I'll do it.
Marc:Well, that sounds like a beautiful communal event.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yeah, it was great.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So you made an impact.
Marc:You won an Oscar.
Marc:What was that?
Guest:I did.
Marc:You got to go to the Oscars.
Guest:I did.
Guest:And I had never been to L.A.
Guest:before.
Guest:How old were you?
Guest:In my 20s.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:And...
Guest:The distributor, who was Rugov, didn't want me to submit it to the Academy.
Guest:And I did.
Guest:And so he just took away, you know, all my PR and everything.
Marc:Why didn't he want you to submit it?
Guest:Because he didn't want people to know it was a documentary when he played it theatrically.
Marc:He was going to trick people into thinking it was some sort of...
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Fiction film.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I went, I didn't have anything to wear.
Guest:I had to borrow a dress and somebody let us off at the Academy Awards and we walked through and they sat all the documentarians together and
Guest:And when our category came up, we crisscrossed arms.
Guest:And when they said Harlan County, I just felt two hands pushing me from behind to get up.
Guest:And my little heart was beating somewhere in the room.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Hellman gave me the award and so that was an incredible thrill because she had been blacklisted right right yeah that's amazing and then you you went you turned around and right away went into making another documentary about a unionization issue but that was some years later I did sound and editing for other films and things like that and had a child and
Guest:You know, did a lot in between American Dream.
Guest:American Dream was in the 90s.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Marc:That is a long time.
Marc:But you were just working as an editor or what you would.
Guest:An editor, sound recordist.
Marc:For features or all documentaries?
Guest:All documentaries.
Guest:You know, worked on No Nukes, so many films.
Marc:So that was your community.
Guest:That was my community.
Guest:And it still is.
Guest:I mean, it's grown and it's prospered.
Guest:And documentaries are the rage now.
Guest:I mean, if you go to a film festival, the documentaries sell out.
Guest:No, I know.
Guest:They're everywhere.
Guest:Yeah, they are, whether you like it or not.
Marc:But that's a good question, though.
Marc:So as a form, it seems that a lot of people who get into documentary
Marc:Their intentions are not always necessarily journalistic.
Marc:And it does seem like that as a form, it's easy to sort of assume a tone, but not make a very good documentary.
Guest:Well, usually documentarians are not journalists.
Guest:We're more free flowing and sort of anything goes in a documentary.
Guest:I mean, you have the work of Michael Moore, who, you know, puts himself in his documentary.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I get that.
Marc:But that was later.
Marc:And, you know, like it doesn't.
Marc:It felt to me that your intention, you know, at the time of something like Harlan County was there was an element of journalism to it.
Guest:Not, not really.
Guest:No, because you could do whatever you wanted.
Guest:I think a journalist really has to hear both sides of the story and, you know, be a journalist and sort of weigh them.
Guest:A documentarian, you just go and you do the things that you feel are right.
Guest:It's more of a storyteller or it's more of a
Marc:But if you tell both sides, then, you know, you're putting there.
Guest:But you can have persuasions, too, of sides that you agree with.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I mean, and there's nobody above you to tell you that you can't.
Guest:You can't put this in or that in.
Guest:It's all what you want to do and how you feel about it.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:Yeah, I guess I'm not I guess I'm not I'm not saying that it's objective, but I find that in that you're saying it's completely subjective from the point of view of the filmmaker.
Marc:But I find that the more compelling documentaries at least present several sides.
Guest:Well, yeah, because it makes a great story.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You want to know all the different elements.
Marc:And I don't mind.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And also there's like I find that of documentaries that are end in a certain amount of ambiguity and put the sort of moral or even the final chapter of the story in the hands of the viewer.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Well, what you do, too, with comedy, with interviewing, it's very documentary in style.
Marc:For sure.
Guest:I know you're also an actor, but it is.
Guest:You get to the rawness.
Guest:You get to the realness when you're doing comedy.
Guest:You know, you use the things that are very close to you and very important to you.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:I never claim to be a journalist.
Marc:Sometimes it gets hung on me, but I refuse to take it.
Marc:Me too.
Marc:Yeah, I got that.
Marc:But that's true.
Marc:It's because I don't follow any rules around this stuff.
Marc:But sometimes, because of that, I get done with an interview, or a few days later, I'm like, fuck, why didn't I ask him that?
Marc:I mean, that was basic shit, and I blew it.
Guest:Well, I bet you you don't blow it.
Guest:I bet that, you know, the things that you did ask, if it's not there, forget about it.
Guest:You just have to go on with what is there.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But like, don't have you ever gotten done with something and being like, oh, my God, how did I not?
Guest:Yes, of course.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:It's not a great feeling, but I let it go.
Marc:Well, it's just like you said to me today that, you know, that Reagan had his guy in Mexico meeting with the Iranians.
Marc:You're like, I could have used that a year ago.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Why didn't you just tell me now?
Guest:I know.
Guest:It would have been wonderful.
Marc:Well, how was it different when you did American Dream?
Marc:I mean, like from going, and I know these are movies people are going to have to go look for, but there was a difference in how you approached it, wasn't it?
Marc:Because there were similar issues, right?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, it was it was union issues.
Guest:It was the Hormel meatpacking company taking away the wages of dropping the wages of the people who work there.
Guest:And it was the same kind of thing.
Guest:Your grandfather, your father all worked there.
Guest:But there were, you know, it was a much more complex film.
Guest:And plus, of course, they decide to go on strike in the middle of a Minnesota winter.
Guest:So sometimes it was 60 below with the windchill factor.
Guest:And, you know, I used to pray that the camera's battery would stop for a minute so we could go in a car with heat.
Guest:And it was tough making these films because you were always struggling for money.
Guest:to keep going.
Guest:And I remember one morning after I'd been out on the picket line from like three o'clock in the morning till seven o'clock in the morning and freezing, I went into the union and the hall and somebody said, Barbara, your office is on the phone.
Guest:And I went...
Guest:OK.
Guest:And I got on the phone and they said, Barbara, you only have two hundred and fifty dollars left in the bank.
Guest:What are you going to do?
Guest:And I just went, what do you mean?
Guest:What am I going to do?
Guest:I'm freezing.
Guest:I've been all night long outside every night.
Guest:And then they called back about four or five hours later.
Guest:And I said, oh, I know what they're going to say.
Guest:I don't want to talk.
Guest:No, they said, it's your office.
Guest:You have to talk.
Guest:So I got on the phone and they said, we just got $25,000 from Bruce Springsteen.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:And I just burst into tears.
Guest:I was so happy.
Yeah.
Guest:Because we had been funding, we had been writing and writing to him because he was, you know, doing a lot of union things at that time.
Guest:And finally, just when we needed it, when we had nothing, he gave us $25,000.
Guest:And it just, I was so happy.
Guest:I was crying, jumping around.
Guest:I couldn't believe it.
Guest:It meant I could still go on.
Marc:So that was that was just that's part of your MO is to just keep pushing and pushing, you know, and you chose Bruce.
Guest:Perseverance.
Guest:Perseverance.
Guest:It's called.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you focus.
Marc:I mean, you know, like, you know what you want out of a specific person.
Marc:You know, you wanted to talk to Jimmy Carter and you knew that Bruce, if he could only see what you were up to, would gladly give you some money.
Guest:And he did.
Guest:He saved us.
Guest:He saved us.
Guest:You know, making films like this is just so incredible.
Guest:You never know what you're going to do next.
Guest:It's so exciting.
Guest:I mean, I've done, you know, films on Woody Allen.
Guest:I was going to ask you about that.
Marc:I mean, you've done films on like...
Marc:I never saw the JFK one, but I did see Wild Man Blues.
Marc:So American Dream is 1990.
Marc:And then what are these homicide life on the street?
Guest:Oh, that's fun.
Guest:The Tom Fontana.
Marc:But that became a TV show, didn't it?
Guest:It was a T. It was a series.
Guest:I also did.
Marc:Oh, you directed you directed the TV show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, they gave me a hard time on the first one, but I was totally unfazed by it.
Guest:I mean, Yafit Kodo said there was a whole big meeting and he said, listen, Barbara, he said, I'm not really saying anything in this scene.
Guest:And I said, yeah, but Yafit, these are your guys.
Guest:You're interested in this.
Guest:I said, and when we put the camera on you, that's the money shot.
Guest:And then he loved it.
Guest:And Andrew Brower was a barroom scene.
Guest:He said, OK, so you're a documentarian.
Guest:That means you only take do one shot.
Guest:And I said, no, absolutely not.
Guest:I said, good documentarian stays there, even if it's all night.
Guest:Until we get everything.
Marc:That's not what he wanted to hear.
Guest:That's not what he wanted to hear.
Guest:But, you know, I figured if I was machine guns in Harlan County, I could understand and work with actors and not be afraid if they tried to intimidate me.
Guest:I had a great time there because we all lived there in Baltimore and go out after we'd shoot and we'd have drinks and talk with each other.
Guest:And it was it was a wonderful community.
Guest:It was really it was a great experience.
Marc:That's what that's what happens with those longer running shows.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Everyone gets to sort of know each other.
Marc:So you've done a lot of TV work.
Guest:I've done TV work.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But like Woody Allen, so like the shift in documentaries, like, you know, from union issues, life or death issues, and then you start doing some celebrity centric pieces.
Marc:What compelled that?
Guest:People would call up and say, how would you like to do a film on Woody Allen?
Guest:We have a budget.
Guest:We have everything.
Guest:And how could you ever turn that down?
Marc:So that wasn't your idea.
Guest:No, it wasn't my idea.
Marc:And this is before he was in trouble.
Guest:No, what he was in trouble because he went with Sunni on this trip.
Guest:But, you know, I've.
Guest:Love Woody Allen.
Guest:I think he's a terrific comic.
Guest:I think he's, you know, a really interesting, smart human being.
Guest:And he let me do whatever I wanted.
Guest:I mean, I even had a key to his hotel room.
Guest:And so I would just come in and start shooting and film them at breakfast or whatever.
Marc:You know, that's right.
Marc:That's what he and he's with Sunni the whole time.
Guest:Sunni the whole time.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And all my like feminist friends, you can't do that.
Guest:I said, of course, I'm going to do that.
Guest:I couldn't think of anything I'd rather do.
Guest:I'm definitely doing.
Marc:And what was the pushback specifically about just the inappropriate seeming seeming inappropriateness?
Guest:Yes, with Sunni.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I kind of, yeah, and I remember that.
Marc:They just, it's, well, what do you think his, what do you think he was doing by making himself available for whatever you wanted to do at that time?
Marc:Was he normalizing the situation?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, no, he was just being himself.
Guest:He was on a jazz tour and he loves music.
Guest:And if somebody could do a film on something that he loves so much, it was good.
Guest:It was fine with him.
Guest:And when we were editing,
Guest:Um, he would call me all the time and he would say, okay, Barbara, can I see it?
Guest:And I'd say, no Woody, it's eight hours long.
Guest:And so then he'd call back and I'd say, no Woody, it's five hours long.
Guest:And then finally he said, I'm coming.
Guest:And then it was three hours long.
Guest:And so he came and he and Sunni watched it and we watched them sort of holding on to each other and laughing and almost seeing their relationship come alive.
Guest:And at the end of it, he stood up.
Guest:I knew he thoroughly enjoyed it.
Guest:And he just said, well, you've got some editing to do.
Marc:So he saw it as a movie, but he also saw it as sort of a home movie in a way.
Guest:Well, but he kept asking me to comment.
Guest:I kept saying it wasn't ready because it was too long.
Guest:And then his last comment was, you've got... Yeah, I know.
Guest:I've been trying to tell you this.
Guest:But he loved the film.
Guest:He loved it.
Marc:And you never...
Marc:Yeah, because I, you know, I certainly love Woody Allen, too.
Marc:But like, you know, now it's like, you know, everything is thrown into a sort of moral chaos around him.
Marc:You didn't feel at any point during your time with him that he felt that he was doing something wrong.
Guest:No, he was so happy.
Guest:It was, you know, sort of a film about youth and age.
Guest:And she always wanted to go out and he wanted to stay home and, you know, or stay in his hotel room and read and get ready.
Guest:And it was and she just brought life into his world.
Guest:And they had an incredibly wonderful time together.
Guest:They're still together.
Guest:They have two adopted children and they seem so happy.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:OK.
Marc:What about this sort of like the Gregory Peck thing?
Marc:Whose idea was that?
Guest:Well, my one of my really good friends is Cecilia Peck, who's Greg's daughter.
Guest:And
Guest:We were working on a film and she moved to New York.
Guest:I had met her in Cannes and I said, why don't you just come to New York and I'll give you a job.
Guest:And we just became really very close friends.
Guest:And she said, so my father's doing a one man show and nobody's filming it.
Guest:And I went, OK, we'll go and we'll we'll do one performance.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we went and I couldn't stop.
Guest:I mean, he was so brilliant and so charming.
Guest:And it's as if he really is was Atticus Finch.
Guest:I mean, just a brilliant, wonderful man.
Marc:How old was he at that point?
Guest:Oh, gee.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:He's an old guy, right?
Guest:An older guy, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you really saw what made him great.
Guest:I did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, he was so nice, and the film went to the Cannes Film Festival.
Guest:And, you know, he just...
Guest:was so low key and so happy to have that film there and he told us that it was his second favorite film next to to kill a mockingbird oh wow that meant everything a great deal that's that's sweet and how about your experience with features are you gonna try are you done with them or what
Guest:Um, no, I'm gonna try to do another one.
Guest:And I'm in the midst of trying to get the rights to it.
Guest:It's a book that a friend of mine wrote a long time ago.
Guest:And
Guest:I'm not going to say what it is till I get the rights to it, but I think it's going to be absolutely amazing.
Marc:And what's the process once you get the rights to a book?
Marc:Do you write the script?
Guest:No, I'm not going to write the script.
Guest:I'll work with a screenwriter.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:My writing is not up to the par of this book.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:I want it to be the very best it is.
Marc:So is that the next thing you're thinking if we ever make it out of this darkness as a country and if we ever get through this disease that you're going to make this feature?
Marc:Is that what you're thinking?
Guest:Well, I'm working now.
Guest:I'm doing a film on civil rights.
Guest:I started before COVID and it's about two civil rights leaders, Mark Morial and Janet McGee.
Guest:And they're sensational.
Guest:And we were filming them before.
Guest:And then when COVID happened, we started doing a zoom recordings and,
Guest:It was like watching history and life unfold before us with all the things that they have to do, you know, and the work that they're doing of prison reform, of, you know, getting out, trying to get out the vote of all the politics that they're going through.
Marc:And also the Black Lives Matter protests.
Guest:Yes, everything.
Guest:And, you know, brown people love Black Lives Matter.
Guest:So and the two of them are really good friends.
Guest:So we're doing that now.
Guest:We're sort of filming them as they go to marches and getting back to to filming.
Guest:So that's we're going to go through the election.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Filming that one and then go into editing.
Marc:Well, that's good.
Marc:So that's exciting and unfolding right before your very eyes.
Marc:I have to assume that that must be.
Marc:You know, a lot of what's compelling about it.
Marc:Like, I mean, I imagine like in a movie like Havoc, where, you know, you have a script, you have the actors, you have scenes, everything, all of the production goes into setting up, picking the location, you know, you know, having as much control as possible, really.
Marc:It's almost the opposite of documentary filmmaking.
Marc:um yeah except you're still searching for that sense of truthfulness you know that you get from a documentary through the actors i mean yeah i definitely i i was now yes i do yeah i mean that that is uh you know a director's job is to find that uh if that's your thing and you're not making i guess it's probably most of their things even if they're making a superhero movie but i mean
Marc:The sort of the intimacy of human connection.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And believability.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And being real.
Marc:Was that a good experience?
Guest:That's what it's all about.
Guest:I loved it.
Guest:Well, I had done the homicides and the odds and havoc.
Guest:And I loved Annie and I loved Bijou Phillips.
Guest:I mean, we all had so much fun together.
Guest:It was great.
Marc:Well, it sounds like you're living the life you want to live.
Guest:I am.
Guest:I feel very blessed and very happy to be doing this work.
Guest:I mean, every time another film pops in front of me, I'm so excited.
Guest:I just put everything I have into it.
Guest:And it really just gets into my heart and into my soul.
Marc:Well, thanks for talking to me.
Guest:Well, I wanted to just see how you're doing, too.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Not to make you sad.
Marc:Oh, I'm okay.
Marc:Well, I mean, talking about that type of directing, certainly what she did.
Marc:Yes, yes.
Guest:And she was just incredible.
Guest:And wonderful.
Guest:And I just want to tell you that I think about you.
Guest:I listened to what you said on NPR and I care deeply about you.
Guest:And so do so many other people.
Marc:I appreciate that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's been difficult.
Marc:And, you know, I, it gets, you know, that I was thinking about it today when I talked to people, you know, about it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I just did a thing with, um,
Marc:Sam Rockwell earlier today, who, you know, was in one of her movies.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, I mean, I'm managing OK, but it's, you know, it's a devastating thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I send you so much love.
Marc:Thank you, Barbara.
Marc:And thank you for talking to me.
Guest:And thank you for talking to me.
Marc:Again, the new film by Barbara is Desert One.
Marc:You can get it where you get all of your on-demands on most video on-demand platforms and in virtual cinemas.
Marc:And you can also check out desertonemovie.com to find all of your options to see it.
Marc:And this is me now with my guitar, a Telecaster.
Marc:Pretty clean.
Marc:Pretty clean.
guitar solo
guitar solo
guitar solo
Guest:Boomer lives.
Guest:Monkey lives.
Guest:La Fonda lives.