Episode 1159 - Alicia Keys / John Leguizamo
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is wtf my podcast how's it going huh
Marc:Right when you think it could only get worse, it does.
Marc:That's a constant in the current world, the current environment, the current cultural moment, the current now.
Marc:Jesus fucking Christ.
Marc:Huh?
Marc:I can't fucking take it, man.
Marc:On top of everything else, on top of my own personal journey.
Marc:I like how we use that word journey.
Marc:Hey, life is a journey, man.
Marc:It's not about meeting your goals or getting everything you want.
Marc:It's the journey, man.
Marc:It's about the journey.
Marc:Enjoy the journey.
Marc:I got to be honest with you.
Marc:I think the journey's not great right now.
Marc:I think that the vessel we're on, not terrific.
Marc:Tough to appreciate the journey.
Marc:Maybe if I'm looking back and I'm like, I can't believe our bus made it through that shit.
Marc:That'll be nice.
Marc:Then I could see the journey thing.
Marc:But right now, on the road, on the edge, on this fucking crumbling dirt road of democracy, in a bus that's overcrowded with people that are trying to have hope,
Marc:and some are crying in the back of the bus, and the sound system doesn't work, and the driver is sweating.
Marc:Not a great journey.
Marc:There was a fucking earthquake here the other night, on top of everything else.
Marc:Happy New Year, Jews.
Marc:Happy New Year to everybody who don't acknowledge that this is the June New Year.
Marc:We've been doing the New Year thing for 5,780 some odd years, I think it is.
Marc:But Happy New Year to those in the tribe, those who are adjacent to the tribe.
Marc:I hope the apples and honey work.
Marc:It's going to take a lot of apples and honey, man.
Marc:A lot of fucking apples and honey.
Marc:And I know there are some people in this world that just are sort of like, hey, fuck it, man.
Marc:There's not much we can do.
Marc:And, you know, it was never good.
Marc:And it was never going to a good place.
Marc:And it was always inevitable.
Marc:It doesn't end well for anybody, man.
Marc:Just enjoy the ride situation.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I get that.
Marc:But the ride stinks right now.
Marc:It's a shitty amusement park.
Marc:It's a fucked up, broken ride.
Marc:And it doesn't look like the fucking guy is even at the controls anymore.
Marc:And the guy who seems to be running the whole park is out of his fucking mind.
Marc:What is it, metaphor day?
Marc:Pow, look out.
Marc:Just shit in my pants, justcoffee.coop.
Marc:A little throwback.
Marc:I'm sorry, am I too negative?
Marc:How you doing?
Marc:Everything all right with the kid?
Marc:Did you figure out what that thing was?
Marc:Maybe you should get some more detergent then.
Marc:I mean, how long are you going to put that off?
Marc:I know it's scary to go to the store, but, you know, just fucking suit up and go.
Marc:Suit up and go.
Marc:Today we got a double header, actually.
Marc:We have Alicia Keys for like a half hour and then John Leguizamo for a bit, for almost an hour.
Marc:It just worked out that way.
Marc:It's sort of a New Yorker, real New Yorker-themed show today.
Marc:They both talk like they're from the fucking city.
Marc:You know?
Marc:Because they are.
Marc:It's, you know, I can explain it to you.
Marc:Here's what happened.
Marc:had a little scheduling botch.
Marc:You know, I somehow the my doctor's appointment didn't show up in the calendar and I made it months ago and I needed to go and it kind of cut into the Alicia Keys time a little bit.
Marc:So we pushed it 15 minutes, which was fine.
Marc:But then I actually got back in time, but they couldn't push it back.
Marc:And she only had an hour to begin with.
Marc:And then she was running 15 minutes late.
Marc:So point being, we got about 30 minutes and I was focused.
Marc:Now,
Marc:This is like one of those learning experiences, you know, really for me in the big picture.
Marc:You know, I didn't grow up with Alicia Keys.
Marc:I know the song she did with Jay-Z.
Marc:I think I've heard some of her big hits, but it really, really wasn't in my radar, wasn't on my radar, wasn't in my world.
Marc:But I know she was great.
Marc:I know she made big hits.
Marc:I know she was a prodigy and a brilliant artist.
Marc:I knew that, but I didn't know her stuff.
Marc:So when this happens, I'm like, I think I should talk to her, but I'm going to have to get in it.
Marc:I'm going to have to get into the work.
Marc:So that makes me get into the work.
Marc:So I listened to her past hits, some of her past records, did a little poking around in her history.
Marc:But then I just focused on the new record.
Marc:uh, Alicia.
Marc:So there's a record.
Marc:It's been quite a few years since her last one.
Marc:She's older now.
Marc:She's wiser now.
Marc:She's coming at it from a different angle.
Marc:And I just kind of focused on that record and listen to it and listen to the words and, and, you know, kind of absorbed where she was at and what she was talking about and kind of use that as a template.
Marc:So this is like, if, if I ever do prepare, this is it.
Marc:It's like, I take the piece of art that they've created and I see the span of their life through the lens of that piece of work, the most, uh,
Marc:Recent work is how I did it with this one.
Marc:I don't know that I do it this way all the time, but it enabled me an immediacy to sort of connect with her.
Marc:And I don't know that her and I would have talked ever in our lives.
Marc:It almost feels like we live in different worlds.
Marc:I don't know that if we did talk in another time that we would have talked this long.
Marc:So it's sort of interesting.
Marc:It's a real sort of like, you know, bridge.
Marc:You know, to a type of music I don't know, to an upbringing I don't know.
Marc:Culturally, we're different in a lot of ways.
Marc:And it was great.
Marc:It was just sort of I locked in with the work and I locked in with her.
Marc:I'll share it with you.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Her new album, Alicia, is out now wherever you get music.
Marc:And this is just listen, we lock right in.
Marc:This is me and Alicia Keys.
Marc:Hi, Alicia.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Hi, Mark.
Guest:How you doing?
Marc:I'm good.
Marc:How are you?
Guest:I'm great.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:I'm really glad to be connecting with you.
Marc:Yeah, it's nice to talk to you.
Marc:I mean, is it crazy?
Marc:You doing a million of these now?
Guest:I mean, no.
Guest:I mean, I'm doing a lot of different things, but honestly, I feel great.
Guest:I just, I feel...
Guest:I feel excited.
Guest:I feel really in a special place right now.
Guest:So I'm in my bliss.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Special place.
Marc:And it took a while to get there.
Guest:It's been a long while.
Guest:I'm just glad to be here, man.
Marc:Because I was noticing, like, it's been the last couple of records, you got about four years in between them.
Marc:And then I was listening to the songs on this record, and I was like, wow, some shit went down.
Marc:There's...
Marc:I don't know what, but but there's a lot of reflection.
Marc:There seems to be some relationship difficulty.
Marc:A little shout out to people who are the less fortunate.
Marc:There's a fairly radical song about about the police, but it seems like everything's covered.
Guest:Yeah, I guess so.
Guest:You know, I mean, I couldn't even have guessed how this music works.
Guest:was meant to be for this time.
Guest:I mean, I feel like I've always been honored that my music is timeless, but I definitely couldn't imagine how the music that I wrote, you know, even two years ago, a year ago, however long ago it takes to put all of it together is relevant more than ever right now.
Guest:You know, certain things are
Guest:beyond your control and certain things are just how they're supposed to be.
Guest:And I feel like I'm in one of those moments where it's just like everything is where it's supposed to be.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, sadly, you know, a song like Perfect Way to Die, you know, remains forever relevant until change comes, you know?
Guest:I really can't wait because it's like, I really know that there's so many of us that don't want to see that same situation played out.
Guest:We don't want to see this blatant disrespect for black lives.
Guest:And we, you know, daily, it's like,
Guest:It's like a barrage of like too much and it's not right.
Guest:So I really can't wait.
Guest:for us to collectively decide to just never do that again.
Marc:And it's interesting because like, I mean, you grew up in New York and you grew up like in a part of New York that was rough.
Marc:And it would seem to me, and I know also that you did some performing for like the Police Athletic League when you were younger, but the relationship, right, your personal relationship with the neighborhood and the police that you grew up with has got to be different than what you see right now.
Guest:I mean, to be honest, I mean, there was there's always been a natural distrust for police officers, to be honest.
Guest:I mean, I can't say we didn't grow up in a way where it was like, oh, hey, go find a police officer and ask him to help.
Guest:Like, that's a whole other neighborhood.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I think that's the I think that's the point of a lot of these conversations that we're having right now.
Guest:in regards to where do funds go and, you know, what is actually the proper way to spend a city's funds.
Guest:But it seems like there's, you know, regardless of what you know or what you experience, there's definitely two Americas.
Guest:And so it feels like one side of America can approach the police and be protected by them and another side can expect to be brutalized by them.
Guest:So it's like kind of what it is.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:And where'd you grow up in New York, in Hell's Kitchen?
Guest:Hell's Kitchen and also Harlem.
Marc:Was Hell's Kitchen, what was that, in the 80s?
Marc:Yeah, it was like, yeah, the 80s.
Marc:It wasn't quite good yet, was it?
Guest:No, it was way far from being good.
Guest:It was nasty.
Guest:It was definitely, I mean, I like to say that it
Guest:It's like the place where all the misfits and the outcasts and the unwanted ones were congregating.
Marc:Were you between 9th and 10th?
Guest:Yeah, I was actually right on 10th.
Guest:So I was like right there, West Side Highway.
Marc:Yeah, like the city just sort of drops off there.
Marc:It's like the edge of civilization, right?
Guest:Especially because it was before like now there's all these cool things on the piers and there's all these places and there's like stuff to do.
Guest:But at that time it was desolate.
Guest:You didn't you didn't dare go to the pier.
Guest:That was not the place where you went.
Guest:Not if you wanted to come back.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So it was it was it was so interesting.
Guest:how things evolve and everything.
Guest:But yeah, that's what it was.
Marc:And it was like, it was just you and your mom?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, my mother, my mother is amazing woman, single mother.
Guest:She raised me, chose to have me and chose to fight for me.
Guest:And she's, you know, incredible.
Guest:Still my best friend to this day.
Marc:So like growing up in that neighborhood, I mean, you know, being, do you, do you have siblings?
Guest:I have a brother, but he didn't grow up with me in that neighborhood.
Guest:I was my mother's only child.
Marc:Oh, I get it.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:Do you have a relationship with that guy?
Guest:My brother?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Oh, my gosh.
Guest:He's my baby.
Guest:I love him.
Guest:He's 10 years younger than me, so we have a really beautiful brother-sister vibe, but he's almost like my first kid, in a way.
Guest:So there's a real, real love and protection there.
Guest:But now he's all taller than me, so I'm like his little sister now, and he's my big brother and whatever.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So when you started getting into music, was it primarily to avoid the danger of that neighborhood?
Guest:I think, you know, when I got into music, when I first got into music, it was because I was definitely drawn to
Guest:I was drawn to the piano in almost like a spiritual way that I don't even exactly know why or what made it call me.
Guest:So it definitely called me from a young age.
Guest:Even before I could play, I knew I wanted to play.
Guest:Even though I couldn't play, I wanted to.
Marc:Where did you first see it?
Marc:Where do you remember first seeing, like, you know, that's what I got to, look at that.
Guest:Yeah, I remember, like, walking down the street and passing piano stores, you know, like in New York.
Guest:And, you know, and I would just be fascinated, like,
Guest:And I just put my nose to the window and look at it and just be like, I want to go in there and play.
Guest:But I didn't know how to play.
Guest:So what was I going to go in there and do?
Guest:But I just knew I wanted to.
Guest:And it was that type of energy.
Guest:My grandmother, my mother's mother, played piano.
Guest:And that was cool because when she would come stay with me, if my mother had to go away, we would practice piano together.
Guest:And she definitely had a vibe like that.
Guest:Other than that, there wasn't really anybody that played piano around me like that.
Guest:My mother wasn't a very...
Guest:musician.
Guest:She was an actor, but she was a musician.
Guest:But there was always creative energy around me all the time.
Guest:And so I think I was always just kind of like taken in by that creative spirit and spark.
Marc:What was the music in the house?
Guest:Music in the house was, you know, a lot of jazz, a lot of kind of Ellen Fitzgerald, a lot of Bobby Caldwell, definitely some Miles Davis and
Guest:There was a lot of, you know, Aretha Franklin's and Etta James and Marvin Gaye's The Classics, all the classics.
Marc:So you had that going and you, you know, you knew that that's a pretty good range of stuff.
Marc:And it was like, if you were to sort of explain where you're coming from, I'd say, you know, most of those are it, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I think, and then obviously in my, you know, and then I was introduced from the streets and from my friends to
Guest:Nas and Wu-Tang and Biggie Smalls and Tupac and all of that influence was like my secondary, my other ether.
Guest:And so it was kind of this mix between soul.
Guest:And then I was playing classical music.
Guest:So I was playing Chopin and Satie and Debussy.
Guest:And so it was this mixture between soul and classical and hip hop.
Marc:Can you listen to classical now?
Guest:Oh, my God, so much.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I love it.
Marc:I love it.
Marc:I don't understand.
Marc:It's like the only music that I don't get.
Marc:I mean, I understand it's beautiful.
Guest:I think when we finish this conversation, you should listen to Debussy.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:I will.
Guest:And that will give you a vibe.
Guest:Because there's, look, there's plenty of classical music, plenty of classical arrangements and music that I cannot listen to.
Guest:It's too, like, hippity, hippity.
Guest:I don't want to hear that type.
Guest:But when I'm hearing, like, this very soulful, moody, bluesy, dark chords, and it's, like, gorgeous, and the arrangements are unbelievable, I am, like,
Guest:my mind is blown.
Guest:So it's definitely, I would say go for Debussy after this thing.
Marc:But you like, like when you studied it, did you like, do you get the whole, cause like, I don't even know how it works as a, like, I don't know how a symphony works.
Marc:I don't know what movements are.
Marc:I don't know, you know, why it fits together.
Marc:Do you?
Guest:Yeah, I think that's, yeah, I do.
Guest:I do.
Guest:And I studied it.
Guest:And so I think that's a really, I'm really proud of that part of my, um,
Guest:you know, my, my upbringing, I think that it really gave me another perspective that a lot of people don't get a chance to explore and experience.
Guest:And even with sight reading and even with just knowing how to read notes, period, like that's a, that's a big, um,
Guest:a big reason why I can't arrange and why I can hear voicings in my head in a way that I think other people can't.
Guest:But I think movements are the most beautiful.
Guest:One of my favorite, it's very popular, but one of my favorite Chopin songs, because Chopin is one of my favorites too, is called the Raindrop Prelude.
Guest:You've heard it before without question.
Guest:But the second movement is actually...
Guest:to me the most beautiful because it feels like the thunder and the more dark and bluesy for me, I'm like, put me in a mood, get me in my emotions.
Guest:So it feels like the thunder and you can hear how it's cracking and growing and all of that.
Guest:And so that's one of my favorites.
Guest:I love how movements go together and that there's actually a thought behind why
Guest:It involves the song.
Marc:And like I imagine in order to learn how to do that, you obviously had a gift for it, but you were very young when you started playing the piano.
Marc:But the discipline it takes to do that and to get locked into that and the sort of it's almost I just talked.
Marc:I remember who I talked to about about the military and about how his experience in the military defined how he approached work.
Guest:in general you know you could see it programmed his brain so i imagine that that discipline must have been laid that wiring for you to get shit done you know what that's that's absolutely right i mean i you know there was there was a certain level of discipline that and there is a certain level of discipline that comes with classical music that just doesn't come with anything else you just can't
Guest:pretend to play classical music.
Guest:You have to study it.
Guest:You have to work at it.
Guest:You have to break it down.
Guest:Each measure has to be broken down.
Guest:The complexities.
Guest:You're using sides of your brain that don't even usually go together.
Guest:It's definitely an experience that I'm grateful.
Guest:Of course, when I was a kid, I was like,
Guest:Y'all get off my back.
Guest:Why do I have to practice this stuff?
Guest:But the effort and the discipline of learning how to put in work is priceless.
Guest:Nobody can outwork me because I understand what it means to put in work.
Guest:And I'm not afraid to put in work.
Guest:I'm also learning that I also have to take breaks and you have to be healthy and you can't burn yourself to the ground because that's not going to work either.
Marc:When did you learn that?
Guest:When you were 10?
Guest:I love that I know how to work.
Guest:no i didn't learn that for a long long time probably when i had my first kid then i was like oh you know somebody's more important than me so i have to you know pay attention well that's nice that you recognize that as a mother some mothers don't yeah it's definitely i mean once you got that little being in your hand you're like i cannot believe this being needs me for everything it's everything how many you got you have two
Guest:Yeah, I have two.
Guest:My husband has three before me and we have two together.
Guest:So we have five all together.
Guest:So I am definitely like, it's so cool for me because I get to see the spectrum.
Guest:Like, you know, our kids are five and nine, but I get to see like, what happens when they're 13?
Guest:What happens when they're 19?
Guest:It's like a thing.
Guest:So I feel like it teaches me a lot for what, you know, what's going to come and how I want to keep my, keep open, you know, about it all.
Marc:Well, in terms of like the work, like I imagine that understanding classical music, because you seem to collaborate with a lot of people and you seem to do it well, which is sort of a unique thing and sort of a gift.
Marc:And I guess as an arranger on this record, you collaborated with a few people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I used to absolutely be so frightened of collaboration because it's so, you know, like exposing.
Guest:You get exposed all your time.
Guest:things and the way that you feel.
Guest:It's like you have to be so honest.
Guest:So sometimes you don't want to be honest with a lot of people.
Marc:And what if you're a monster one day?
Marc:Then all those people know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know?
Guest:I mean, but that's the thing.
Guest:I never...
Guest:I never met my monster until recently.
Guest:And so I always hid my monster.
Guest:And now I've truly learned how to let my monster out.
Guest:It's a good thing.
Guest:It's a good thing.
Guest:But collaboration, so I enjoy collaborating.
Guest:On this album, I love collaborating with Johnny McDade.
Guest:He's a really, really amazing writer and producer and person who could just, honestly, I just call him my therapist because we sit in a room and he'll ask me questions that no one will take the time to ask me or think about.
Guest:And so what that brings forth is really, really powerful.
Guest:I really enjoyed writing with a gentleman named Sebastian Cole.
Guest:We wrote Time Machine Together and also Perfect Way to Die.
Guest:And he's very prolific.
Guest:I think he's one of the most powerful writers.
Guest:writers that I know.
Guest:I also enjoyed working with The Dream.
Guest:He's somebody that I hadn't worked with before, but I've always known of him.
Guest:And when we got together, he has like a certain
Guest:magic to him and like just energy to him that's you know that's invigorating so it's cool because you get to you get nobody nobody's gonna come up with what i'm gonna come up with and i'm never gonna come up with what they come up with so when we put it together it's like kind of fascinating yeah and they're and they're ultimately working for to honor your voice and your vision so whatever they bring you know it's only gonna you know broaden your trip you know
Guest:Yeah, it enhances.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:For sure.
Guest:100%.
Marc:So when you were younger, was there ever a time?
Marc:Because, I mean, you had big hits right away.
Marc:It's interesting.
Marc:I was looking at some research that, you know, because Aretha Franklin left Columbia, too, to go to Atlantic.
Guest:I know.
Marc:Right.
Marc:For similar reason.
Guest:That's the reason why I didn't feel so bad.
Marc:That's why you didn't feel so bad.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Once I found out that they messed up with me, like Columbia definitely, you know, just didn't know what they had in me.
Guest:And I can't blame them because I'm an anomaly and I'm definitely something that can't be defined.
Guest:And so, you know, business people don't like things that can't be defined.
Marc:No, they want to put you in a box.
Guest:Antithesis of commercial.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So so that so that that I don't blame them.
Guest:But once I found out that they didn't know what they had in Aretha Franklin, too, I was like, oh, they're just stupid.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And she did.
Marc:She did like 10 records with them.
Correct.
Marc:crazy how long she was there it's crazy and then she and then jerry wexler took her over at atlantic and that was it man and that was it he they they found their match and that's all it's about you know finding your match finding where you belong yeah i just played jerry wexler in a movie with jennifer hudson in that aretha oh my gosh yeah so i was with the new one which movie it hasn't come out yet aretha franklin movie respect
Guest:Oh, man.
Marc:Jennifer plays Aretha.
Guest:That's so good.
Guest:That's going to be so good.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:I can see that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I can totally see that.
Guest:You can completely be that.
Marc:Be a cranky Jew?
Marc:Yeah, I can.
Guest:Is that what you are?
Guest:Sometimes.
Guest:Right?
Marc:I have my monster as well, and I've known my monster for a very long time.
Guest:When's the first time you met your monster?
Marc:I was probably like 19.
Guest:So that was the first time you let it out.
Marc:Yeah, I didn't know just I didn't know what he was up to.
Marc:But, you know, I was I was in my first real relationship.
Marc:And, you know, when you love somebody and you're not used to being vulnerable, you know, sometimes that's when the monster happens.
Guest:Because it's scary.
Guest:You have to protect yourself by all costs.
Guest:You're not going to hurt me.
Guest:I got to protect myself.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:I get it.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:When did you meet your monster?
Guest:I only met my monster recently, as I told you, because in a lot of ways, I think I've always been kind of the level-headed one.
Guest:And so it's always been my mother and I. So she...
Guest:she was always kind of quite wearing all her emotions on her sleeve.
Guest:And so I always had to be kind of the rational one and the one that made it all make sense and like figure it out and calm it down and that type of thing.
Guest:So I learned very early how to be very accommodating and pacifying, which is,
Guest:a shame.
Marc:Right, because it doesn't enable you to have your own feelings or to define your own personness.
Guest:I think so.
Guest:I think it definitely made me very accustomed to and comfortable with being
Guest:accommodating and pacifying.
Guest:And that took a while to unwind.
Guest:So finally, when I started to unwind that, because I always had to be the accommodating one and always had to be the pacifying one, always had to be the one that made it okay and the one that made it better and all that shit.
Guest:Finally, after I unwound that, I was like, okay, look, I can't fix everything.
Guest:And I can't fix your shit.
Guest:And look, maybe I can fix mine.
Guest:I'm going to try, but I definitely am going to have to focus on that.
Guest:And also just like
Guest:Taking off that weight to feel like you got to put everything together.
Marc:Well, it's a relief because that's I think that's pretty much the classic kind of codependency thing.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Where you just feel like you can you're there to help somebody else.
Marc:You almost lose yourself.
Marc:in trying definitely trying to help other people and then one day you just spin out right you just like straight like I'm over it yeah I'm not doing this anymore I'm not doing it anymore but it's good because you got to get to that place I think yeah to know that you're yeah some things are just you're powerless over them you can't control it you can't fix it fuck it
Guest:Yeah, you could give it up.
Guest:Just give it up.
Guest:Leave it alone.
Guest:Just leave it alone.
Marc:So that's what that song is.
Marc:I'm done.
Marc:So done.
Guest:So done.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I'm done guarding my tongue, holding me back.
Guest:I'm living the way that I want.
Guest:I'm done fighting myself going through hell.
Guest:I'm living the way that I want.
Guest:Like finally be done.
Guest:Oh, it feels so good.
Guest:Just like that song feels good.
Guest:It feels good.
Marc:Well, so I but like outside of relationships, I imagine like from the beginning, once you started doing that first record, once you moved over with who are you with Clive Davis, right?
Marc:You know, and you started making those hits and putting all that work in that you must have been like just submerged with that personality, just in the work.
Marc:And you're just churning out the music all the time.
Marc:You probably did.
Marc:You have a life when you were younger.
Guest:Oh, no, I didn't.
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, you know, everything, everything happened for me very young, which is amazing and a beautiful blessing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But it's also kind of crazy to have to manage everything and figure everything out and keep it all kind of spinning, you know, from about 18 on 18 until today.
Guest:So.
Guest:I definitely didn't really have a traditional teenage experience.
Guest:I didn't have a traditional young adult experience.
Guest:And a lot of the times it's interesting for me when I think back on that, but I feel very normal and I'm really good.
Guest:I think I'm more normal than people that probably had those traditional experiences.
Guest:And maybe in some way I was able to, you know, thanks to my mother, I think, because she's very much a realist.
Guest:And she always kept me very grounded.
Marc:And also thanks to New York City.
Marc:I mean, New York City, you know, that's solid.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Like, you know, New York City is almost like when you grow up there and you spend that life there, it's almost apparent in a way.
Marc:There's something about the personality in New York.
Guest:You are so right, because I think the first time that I really, you know, came in contact with
Guest:making a lot of choices for myself and especially under the scrutiny of people or whatever pressure of whatever.
Guest:I knew what I didn't want right away.
Guest:And I knew I didn't want it because of New York.
Guest:I was like, I don't know about all these other things.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But what I know,
Guest:is that I'm not going to be doing this.
Guest:And that was helpful.
Guest:It really did.
Guest:It did parent me in a lot of ways.
Marc:Yeah, and I think, especially with the huge song, I mean, Empire State of Mind, it's almost replaced New York, New York as the song for New York.
Marc:You guys did it.
Guest:No, that's crazy.
Guest:I mean, that's literally crazy, and we're super proud of it.
Guest:And we always look at each other like,
Guest:What?
Guest:Seriously?
Marc:But like it seems like but you're you're like a lot of these songs.
Marc:It's very hard for me to on the new record.
Marc:I mean, just stay with that.
Marc:Like, it seems like the underdog song is sort of a almost like an anthem out of respect for, you know, people that struggle and, you know, from what in some ways a little bit what you came from, maybe.
Guest:A lot of what I came from, I mean, I definitely defy the odds.
Guest:My mother defied the odds for sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Without question.
Guest:So there's, there's no question that that's our life.
Guest:And it's also the hundreds and thousands of other people that, you know, are, are not expected to, to, to be able to make it out of whatever situation or circumstance they're in currently.
Guest:And I think
Guest:You know, we all have that possibility.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You know, so it's definitely, that's why that song is so, the song is actually really about like when you, also when you meet people and you don't know them and how do you actually open yourself to, do we actually see each other or do we kind of just pass each other in our busyness?
Guest:Do we know each other's stories or do we just kind of like, you know, are so erratiated in our world?
Marc:Well, that's sort of like in a few of the songs, like Gramercy Park, like too a little bit, right?
Guest:gramercy park is one of my favorites like the one of my favorite songs i love that groove on there and that like it's really kind of an intimate song it's not you know it's a little more uh it feels personal like the instrumentation feels very sort of uh candid and you know what i mean like it's definitely very raw very stripped back yeah yeah totally like you know folksy and yeah i love that about it but i love most importantly is like
Guest:about the way that you change yourself unknowingly because you love somebody, thinking that you're doing it out of love, but only to find out that you've lost yourself in the process.
Marc:Right, right, because that's what I was saying when I heard it.
Marc:I was like, because there's a line in there where it's sort of like, you know, you fell in love with somebody like you don't even know really or something, like something along those lines, right?
Guest:It's like now you've fallen for a person that's not even me because I forgot about the person that I used to be.
Marc:Oh my God, did you...
Marc:Is everything okay with your husband and what's going on?
Guest:That is, you know, honestly, I find that me and my husband are amazing.
Guest:I think that I find that happens with my friends and different relationships that I've had in the past where I wasn't so solid or I didn't really understand how to be clearly myself.
Guest:I was like more of a shapeshifter because, you know, I was just learning.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I was kind of, yeah, I was wondering about that.
Marc:And truth without love is a lie.
Marc:Where'd that come from?
Guest:I love that.
Guest:I mean, that's one of my favorite songs.
Marc:It's a nice, it's like the phrase, like I can't stop thinking about, you know, the poetry of it.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I think that it means a lot of things to a lot of people under different circumstances.
Guest:But for me, I feel like you can have all the truth in the world and you can be spitting all the truth in the world.
Guest:But if you are not saying it with love,
Guest:How does that person receive it?
Guest:Is it actually the truth or is it just a lie?
Guest:So it's like, I think that, I think there's such a power in that poetry you write.
Guest:And, and, you know, you, you know, it's like this, this, this honest delivery in that song that I love.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you can also use like truth as a weapon.
Marc:Sometimes, you know, not saying something is more loving than saying something.
Guest:That's true.
Guest:That is true.
Marc:But I think it's interesting you say that you didn't know who you were, how to hold on to yourself throughout a lot of what you were doing.
Marc:Because I feel that on this record when I listen to the other records that your voice is in the cradle of yourself now.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:I mean, you have a great voice.
Marc:You've always had a great voice.
Marc:But now you feel some wisdom.
Marc:And now you're connecting to that wisdom and to your heart.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:You can definitely feel the weight of it now.
Guest:I also realize that I don't have to try so hard.
Guest:I think sometimes you try so hard to hit the thing or sing it strong or do this impressive whatever.
Guest:And it's like at some point you can actually just speak your truth and just say what you feel and you can deliver it in so many different ways.
Guest:And there's not just one way to be great.
Guest:And I think that, you know, that's some of the stereotype that we have to break down as humans because we think, man, I'm only great if I...
Guest:So it's cool to be able to not have to try so hard.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And sometimes, like, if you're one of those people that never thinks you're doing good enough, there's no end to that.
Marc:And you're just going to, you know, burn yourself out.
Marc:Right?
Marc:You'll never be happy.
Guest:You're right.
Guest:You do have to...
Guest:recognize what's special about you, you know?
Marc:And also just be like, that was good.
Marc:You know, like I did all right.
Marc:Here's the thing I always do is sort of like, I've been doing this a long fucking time.
Marc:So like, right.
Marc:So like, you know, whatever I think about it, I know how to do this.
Marc:So like, I don't have to beat myself up thinking I don't know how to do stand up or whatever the hell I do.
Guest:Right.
Marc:So I, and then you can relax a little bit and at least enjoy what you do.
Guest:You know, and strangely enough, I have kind of an opposite feeling.
Guest:I feel like every time I do what I do, I don't know what I'm doing.
Guest:And I actually, I mean, of course, I know I've done it before, but I don't exactly know how it's going to come to fruition this time.
Marc:And that's okay, though.
Guest:And I'm cool with that.
Guest:Whereas before, I think I felt like I had to know or I had to be able to be in control.
Guest:And was it going to be good enough?
Guest:And what if it wasn't good?
Guest:I worry less about that now.
Marc:but but you know you have the skill set you may not know how the piece is going to unfold but you know i can play piano i can sing i can work with these people i can write the song we don't know what's going to happen but i know the craft is in place yes yes i definitely put in my 40 000 hours so yeah i'll say i'll say well look i i know you got to go maybe we can pick it up again it was great talking to you i love the records
Guest:Amen.
Guest:Thank you so much.
Guest:I'm so glad to talk to you.
Guest:Thank you for thinking about it, putting your mind on it and connecting with me and all the good things.
Guest:I can't wait to talk to you again.
Marc:Okay, good.
Marc:Take care.
Marc:Good luck with the record.
Guest:Thank you, man.
Guest:Talk to you later.
Marc:That was fun, right?
Marc:We locked in.
Marc:I liked her a lot, and I like the new record.
Marc:Her new record, Alicia, is out now wherever you get your music.
Marc:So here's an upbeat thing before we get to John Leguizamo.
Marc:I've changed my opinion.
Marc:I've changed a long-held opinion.
Marc:And I'll share it with you.
Marc:And it was not a great opinion, but I didn't.
Marc:Years ago, when I saw Robert Altman's Long Goodbye with Elliot Gould, I didn't think it worked.
Marc:Granted, as time went on, I realized I was the only one that thought that.
Marc:And I love Altman.
Marc:He made one of my favorite movies of all time, McCabe and Mrs. Miller.
Marc:But I just couldn't walk into The Long Goodbye.
Marc:And for some reason last night, I don't know how I got there, I ended up watching One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, which, you know, I don't know if you've read that book by Ken Kesey.
Marc:The book is genius.
Marc:It's written from the point of view of Chief.
Marc:But the movie's pretty fucking great, too.
Marc:And that last scene where Chief's like, I'm going to take you with me.
Marc:You know, it's like, wow.
Marc:All right.
Marc:But then I got from there somehow to the long goodbye.
Marc:And it was fucking great.
Marc:Elliot Gould was great.
Marc:Just turning that form, the private dick movie on its head in that 70s way.
Marc:Sterling Hayden.
Marc:I mean, it's just like I was completely flabbergasted at my younger self for being such a dummy.
Marc:Do yourself a favor and watch the long goodbye.
Marc:I think it's on Amazon Prime is where I watched it.
Marc:And of course, Cuckoo's Nest, if you haven't seen that lately.
Marc:they're working you like they worked my father the combine that's in the book anyway look john leguizamo is somebody i never really met though he claims we did but i don't it's all right i'm surprised i didn't i used to be on the lower east side a bit and yeah i knew he'd come from there at some point anyways
Marc:It just it hasn't happened.
Marc:We haven't met.
Marc:We haven't talked.
Marc:And I didn't know how it would go.
Marc:But he's got this new movie called Critical Thinking that he stars in and he directed.
Marc:And you can watch it on most video on demand platforms.
Marc:And he put his heart into it.
Marc:And he puts his heart into all his stuff that he's doing on terms of like especially his solo shows.
Marc:And I was happy that the conversation went well.
Marc:This is me talking to John Leguizamo.
Oh.
Marc:Now you're sideways.
Marc:That's interesting.
Guest:It'll come around.
Guest:Give it a moment.
Marc:You're high maintenance.
Marc:Yeah, I'm high maintenance?
Marc:Me?
Marc:Where are you?
Marc:Are you in New York?
Marc:I'm in, yeah, Manny Hattie.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:I see you got your Emmy behind you.
Marc:Is that an Emmy?
Marc:Yeah, subliminal, yeah.
Marc:That's for freak?
Guest:Yeah, that was for freak.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Tony's upstairs.
Marc:You got one of those or two of those?
Guest:I got only one of those.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Well, you got to get it up there.
Marc:You got to get up there next to the other statue.
Marc:No, I spread it around, so I boost myself on every floor.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So like every room you walk into, you're like, look what I did.
Guest:There's a little something.
Marc:There's a little tribute to my achievements.
Marc:I'm winning.
Marc:Now that I can't leave my house for very long, it's nice to see what I've won.
Guest:My self-esteem starts to drop quickly.
Marc:but believe me it's kind of true isn't it it's weird that you know when you when you kind of isolate it and you can't really do anything even walk down the street to at least get someone stranger to go hey man i love your shit you're just walking around yeah yeah yeah hey johnny johnny that's how i get in new york all the time hey johnny
Guest:but that feels good and if you don't get that little boost on a day-to-day basis you walk around your house like who the fuck am i did i do anything but but you know better than to google yourself you know i never do that sucker i don't do that once you'll never do it again because like the first 10 or 15 are like you're incredible i love you you're amazing then after that is like you suck you're the worst you're piece of shit you're fake you're like what
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's like a, it's like a horrendous speed ball.
Marc:Like you're like, you're up, you're up, you're up.
Marc:And now that you get knocked down, you're like, Oh fuck.
Marc:And then you're up again and you get down.
Marc:I don't do it.
Marc:I don't do it.
Guest:I love, I love the analogy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, that's what it is really, except that one side is terrible.
Marc:I mean, I think at least with the speed ball, both sides are, they're different, but they're both good.
Guest:Right.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:Google.
Guest:I mean, you Google yourself after that first, you know, it gets really dark, very dark.
Guest:And anonymity is a strange drug for people.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's not the social media so much.
Guest:It's the feeling that they don't... Because they wouldn't say that to your face.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Of course not.
Guest:None of them would come up to you.
Guest:Even if they're bigger than you and they could beat you, they still wouldn't come up to your face and say that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But anonymously, they feel like, well, I could...
Guest:You'll never know.
Guest:I could say this and that.
Marc:And you know what, though?
Marc:You know what I realize, though, is a lot of those, a lot of them, it's their fucking hobby, man.
Marc:It might not even be how they feel.
Marc:They're just choosing to fuck with you.
Marc:They're trying to get you to react.
Marc:This is like their game.
Guest:They get off on that.
Guest:They get off on that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's the negativity monsters.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:The definition of trolling is to poke at you until they hit your fucking sensitivity and you react.
Marc:As soon as you go, fuck you, they're like, dude, I did it.
Guest:He got me.
Marc:I got him.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And if you fucking get into it with him, I used to like way back in the day, you find yourself like spending 20 minutes on Twitter arguing with a guy with no picture, no name and four followers.
Marc:And you're like, what the fuck is wrong with me?
Guest:You lost half an hour of your life that you can't get back.
Guest:I know, man.
Guest:And then people stop being on your side, too, because they feel like you're being mean or something.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Why are you beating up on the guy with no friends?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:No followers.
Marc:It's not even a real person.
Marc:So, like, we've never met before, I don't think, have we?
Marc:Yeah, we have.
Guest:It's okay.
Marc:You don't have to remember me.
Marc:It's fine.
Marc:It happens.
Marc:No, I remember you.
Marc:I know you, but where do we meet?
Marc:No, you don't remember me.
Marc:Where was I?
Marc:Yeah, I know you, but where?
Marc:No, yeah, where?
Guest:Emmys.
Guest:Remember we were at the Emmy party together a couple times?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I've only been to the Emmys once.
Marc:Once.
Marc:One time.
Marc:Then how come I remember?
Marc:I've been there a lot of times.
Marc:How come I remember you?
Marc:Because I make an impression, John.
Marc:You already made an impression.
Guest:It must be you.
Marc:It must be your charisma.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:No, but I mean, of course I know you, but we were in New York at the same time.
Marc:I never met you when we were kids.
Marc:I was down, I was in New York.
Marc:I was on the Lower East Side, 89 to 92.
Marc:And then at 16th.
Guest:I was there a lot.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then I was at 16th and third from like, you know, 93 to 95, then out in Astoria forever.
Marc:But like I'd heard, I knew you were around, right?
Marc:Weren't you a Lower East Side guy?
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I was LES.
Guest:Obviously, I'm from Jackson Heights, Queens.
Guest:That's where I'm from.
Guest:But, you know, I made my mark was in LES, you know, all the performance art spaces downtown.
Guest:I lived on Stanton and Ridge.
Guest:Then I lived on 7th and C&D for a long, long time.
Marc:You remember Hammerhead?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Do you remember later on the game?
Guest:Do you remember Zoom Schneider, that crazy bar?
Guest:Where was Esperanti?
Guest:That was later.
Guest:That was later.
Guest:That was like in the...
Guest:late 90s, early 2000s.
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:When it started to gentrify.
Guest:Oh, you're talking about Save the Robots.
Guest:You're talking about Save the Robots.
Marc:You're talking about... I lived on 2nd between A and B, right by that weird... Oh, wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, the garage.
Marc:That was the garage.
Marc:89, yeah.
Guest:I performed there.
Guest:That was a performance space.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I did Spickerama there.
Marc:You did to start at the beginning?
Marc:Yeah, I started there, yeah.
Marc:So you grew up in Jackson Heights at what age?
Marc:What do you mean at what age?
Marc:I lived like...
Guest:till college and then i left oh and then but you didn't but you lived on you oh when you went to college you moved into the city right right well i lived at i was at cw post first for two years then transferred to nyu then i then i lived with my brother at columbia because i had no money how many how many brothers sisters you got just one well i have one full brother two step sisters three half brothers and sisters oh my god big family my father couldn't focus
Marc:He could, just on different things.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:A little sexual ADHD.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:You'll work for now.
Marc:So, like, when did you start doing the performing?
Marc:I mean, I'm trying to get a timeline.
Yeah.
Guest:Oh, mid-80s, mid-80s.
Guest:So I was at the First Amendment improv company on Bond Street.
Guest:You know, like everybody was performing there, except when I got there, it was on the downhill.
Guest:When the fuck was that?
Guest:In the mid-80s?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:That was before I got there.
Guest:Bruce Willis was coming down.
Guest:Robin Williams was coming down.
Guest:Everybody.
Guest:But when I got there, they stopped coming.
Marc:I don't remember that place at all.
Marc:Maybe I like, cause I was all standup, so I didn't know nothing about.
Guest:Oh, that was, that was the improv circuit.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then, and then I was at Gusto house, uh, Avenue a and, and like six street.
Guest:I was at a knitting factory, uh, Dixon place, Dixon place.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Uh, home.
Guest:You know, these are all the performance art space.
Guest:Cause I was doing the, I was doing the clubs too.
Guest:Like,
Guest:You open mic night at Catch a Rising Star Mondays, you know, get the lottery and whatnot at Comic Strip, Running Dangerfields.
Marc:You were going to try those?
Marc:You did those?
Marc:The Dangerfields, Catch a Rising Star, Comic Strip?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I didn't like it as much.
Marc:How old were you?
Marc:Like 19, 20?
Marc:20.
Marc:Now, when you did stand-up, because that's my world, I kind of knew.
Marc:I don't think I ever saw you around.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Marc:I didn't mean to put down your world.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:I don't care.
Yeah.
Marc:You don't give a shit what I said.
Marc:No, I mean, you can put that in my world, but we got rid of you.
Marc:You couldn't hack it.
Marc:We got rid of you.
Marc:You didn't stay in our world.
Guest:You went to the other world.
Guest:It was not my world.
Guest:It was not my world.
Guest:It was like, I felt like, you know, like, I felt like a, like a fish out of water.
Guest:I was like, it's set up punchline, set up punchline, all these drunk motherfuckers.
Guest:I'm like, I can't perform for you.
Marc:What were you, what were you doing when you did standup?
Marc:Were you doing characters?
Guest:Right.
Guest:I was doing characters and stories.
Guest:And then my girlfriend at the time, we used to do sketch comedy and improv.
Guest:Obviously, we travel around everywhere and do improv with different improv groups.
Guest:But I found myself was doing my 30 minute little monologues full of characters.
Guest:Like, yeah, like if the Bible, if Jesus were Latin, if the West had been won by Latin people instead of lost.
Guest:And, you know, I would do those kind of things and and people dug it.
Guest:So I was like, this is my thing.
Marc:That is not my thanks.
Marc:Because you would do that stuff and they wouldn't get on board.
Marc:They couldn't follow it.
Marc:It took too long.
Guest:It took too long, too setup-y.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:They just want a quick little quickie.
Guest:Yeah, punch it out.
Guest:And I was like, nah, you got to earn me.
Marc:So it's right.
Marc:So at age 20, you're like, fuck, stand up, going back downtown and dig it in.
Marc:And were you taking classes at the time?
Guest:Yeah, I was taking acting classes since I was 17 with some of the greats.
Guest:I was always the only Latin guy.
Guest:And and these teachers were so beautiful and mentoring and they knew they they boosted me.
Guest:You know, they knew that they needed to help me out.
Guest:And Herbert Berghoff, who owned HB Studios, I was in his class for a couple of years.
Guest:Lee Strasberg for a little bit.
Guest:You were around when Lee was alive?
Guest:I was in his class one day, his last day on earth, at Lee Strasberg Institute on 15th Street.
Guest:I did a sense memory exercise of something from my childhood.
Guest:and he died that night because of my acting, I'm pretty sure.
Marc:It's not proven.
Marc:That just made you work harder.
Guest:I don't have evidence, but I'm pretty sure it was my acting that killed him.
Marc:Really?
Marc:You were in his class when he passed away?
Marc:He was old, wasn't he old?
Guest:Oh, very, very, very.
Guest:He had like a click in his throat.
Guest:And I wanted to try to do that a little better than that.
Guest:They're like that very quiet.
Guest:You can hardly hear him.
Guest:And they had that clicky back.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But at that age, did you find yourself like I was I took classes from a guy named Michael Howard.
Marc:in New York.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Famous, famous, famous.
Marc:Legendary.
Marc:They get to a certain age and, you know, are you finding that you were there because you wanted to be around the guy and his history or you're actually learning something?
Guest:No, I learned.
Guest:I feel like my acting totally changed.
Guest:I mean, I love...
Guest:HB Studios, I learned a lot about scene study and scene breakdown and motivation, previous circumstances.
Guest:I'm going to get mad acting nerd with you now.
Guest:And then with Strasburg, it was more about imagination.
Guest:It's what made me do my one-man shows because you learned
Guest:how to create an environment imaginarily, talk to imaginary people.
Guest:You know, you created that all from your imagination.
Guest:So I never felt alone on Broadway because I had my imagination and it was vivid to me.
Marc:So he freed that.
Marc:Because of the method.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Yep.
Marc:When you developed the first show, which was that?
Marc:Mamba Mouth, 1990.
Marc:1990.
Marc:You don't believe me, motherfucker.
Marc:He's like, nah, I know you weren't.
Marc:But where did you work that out?
Guest:I worked out everywhere.
Guest:Home, Dixon Place.
Marc:What was the woman's name, Lone Dixon Place?
Marc:Ellie Kovac.
Marc:And who were the guys?
Marc:Because it was so weird that by the 90s, I was locked into stand-up, but there was still what was left of the performance art scene from the 80s.
Marc:But then there were new people like Surf Reality, Collective Unconscious.
Marc:There was all these new kind of venues.
Marc:But you kind of got the tail end of the original crew.
Marc:So...
Marc:Like did Boghossian come up with you or he's a little before you?
Guest:PS 122.
Guest:That was Boghossian right there.
Guest:He was a little before me because obviously he's one of my mentors, you know, one of the people that inspired me.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But he was right before me.
Marc:So did you see what made you realize that you could do these?
Marc:Because the one person show thing is it's a blessing and a curse.
Marc:Ain't no curse.
Marc:There ain't no curse to it.
Marc:No, I mean, there are guys... What do you mean?
Marc:You've got to explain yourself.
Marc:I will.
Marc:I will.
Guest:You better come correct.
Marc:I will.
Marc:I'm talking as a stand-up comic who is out there hammering it out and figured it out in front of fucking strangers who didn't give a fuck.
Marc:All right?
Marc:Now...
Marc:But wait, just hang out there.
Marc:I'm just saying that not unlike stand up.
Marc:There are just there are some people that are really good at it.
Marc:And then there's a lot of people that did some really bad one man shows.
Guest:That's all I'm saying.
Guest:Oh, no, no, no doubt.
Guest:No doubt.
Guest:No doubt.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It gave people a false sense of hope for their future in theater.
Marc:That's what I'm saying.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, there were definitely a lot of a lot of bad one man shows.
Guest:But, you know, before our generation, my generation, it was always like, you know, one-man shows were Samuel Clemens, not even Mark Twain, Samuel Clemens, young Abe Lincoln.
Guest:It was all those, like, very literary shows.
Guest:Bios, you know, I mean, and then it got funkier, right?
Marc:But there was a difference between Like what Spaulding Gray was doing and what you were doing right there There definitely became a point where because you and Boghossian where people are like I'm going to do a a parade of characters like, you know It seemed like Spaulding was more like Mark Twain where he would focus in on an essay and you know and in his manic sense, you know present this thing and
Guest:in a very raw naked way which was the beauty of him it was so good there was no filter there was no pretense or trying to like shape it to make it more palatable and then you and then you got eric vagozin brought brought the characters and and the sex and the and then whoopi goldberg brought the ghetto poetry yeah and then lily tomlin brought the play and then she was old school that's that's probably the beginning of it right there really right lily
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Lily was the one that really brought it.
Guest:And then I took something from everybody and created my own hybrid, which was the autobiographical play that you did yourself with all.
Guest:And I played all the characters in it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that was what I brought to it.
Marc:Yeah, no, for sure.
Marc:I was watching.
Marc:You remember, just to go back for a second, you remember when Spaulding, he would always have this huge book that he hardly ever look at, like stuff that he'd written, but he turned the pages, but he never fucking looked at it.
Guest:So fast, because you know he couldn't have read it that fast.
Marc:Oh my God.
Guest:But he needed that.
Guest:It was his crutch.
Guest:Everybody's got something to lean on.
Marc:Oh, definitely.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But did you remember like, you know, there was also that other world of performance art that was just fucking out there.
Marc:I mean, you probably saw that, too, because you were young and it was still happening.
Marc:Like Karen Finley.
Marc:I was there.
Marc:And like, who was the guy that used to cut himself?
Marc:Right, right, right, right.
Guest:There were all those really interesting, odd pushing the envelope kind of stuff.
Guest:I was with them.
Guest:You know, I'd be warming up with them.
Guest:They'd be naked and doing their thing and smacking themselves on the head with the concrete walls.
Guest:And then I go, I go up next and I got to do my little story.
Marc:They were probably relieved by the time you got up there.
Guest:I didn't know what the hell.
Guest:I mean, I was the oddball.
Guest:It was like when you watch the Munsters and Marilyn's the normal one, that's what it was like.
Guest:But they thought she was ugly.
Marc:So what was it that, like, what was the show that really made you realize that you could do what you wanted to do?
Marc:Was it Boghossian?
Guest:I think it was Lily, man.
Guest:When I saw Lily, I was like,
Guest:That's that's that's me.
Guest:That's what I want to do.
Guest:I've been doing something like it, but this is what I want to do.
Guest:But I want to put my just make it about my life.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Make it personal.
Guest:And I added costumes to it.
Guest:And yeah, you did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had more of a through line.
Guest:And then, you know, it became sort of this crazy hybrid that, you know, everybody else started borrowing, you know, Billy Crystal used it and Lane Stritch.
Marc:So what was the how did it work?
Marc:How did did you write mostly on stage or did you write on the page first?
Guest:It's a combo.
Guest:So I'll write it all out and then a lot of improv, a lot of improv, a lot of rewriting, improv.
Marc:So you record it, you record it, you record it or no?
Marc:No, I don't record.
Guest:I can't watch myself because then I start to hate myself.
Marc:But not even on tape?
Guest:No, no, I can't even stand to hear myself.
Marc:still no i can't i can't i have to like just be in the moment and and and write it and just be i'm the same way man i mean i'm the same way i i can't like i'll record you know i've recorded shit forever i got boxes i don't listen to it i don't listen to it but i have it hell no
Guest:Yeah, it's impossible.
Marc:But that's interesting.
Marc:It's an interesting process.
Marc:So you make notes, then you go riff it out.
Marc:And ultimately what happens is over repetition, you find the groove you want to keep.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Guest:And then you're in it.
Guest:And then later on what I found out was when I hit my 300th show, it's when it's gelled.
Guest:300.
Guest:That's when it's finally gelled.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Holy fuck.
Guest:Because, you know, it's a massive undertaking.
Guest:It's two hours of my own personal life.
Guest:And personal life does not fit in three-act structure.
Guest:It just doesn't naturally fit in.
Guest:So it's a really painstaking thing to make it a three-act structure.
Guest:So that's the difficulty of it.
Guest:And it's got to be mad funny.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's got to be mad moving.
Guest:And it's got to...
Guest:You know, because my life's not that fascinating.
Guest:So it's more about my execution than it is about my fascinating life.
Guest:Because that's the only two types of one man shows there are.
Guest:It's like you have a crazy, incredible life and you just tell it or you're an incredible storyteller and your life's OK.
Marc:You know, it's so weird how everything is fragmented now, because like the type of one man show that you did.
Marc:I mean, they happen occasionally.
Marc:I mean, maybe they'll happen again after the fucking plague.
Marc:But, you know, it seems like, you know, TED Talks and all this other sort of all these other outlets have really kind of hijacked.
Marc:the the sort of purity of the type of theater that you were doing you know what i mean because now people right right you know now all of a sudden you hear about this ted talk and people are like that's the best thing i've ever seen on stage yeah yeah yeah it's like what the fuck you know like it used to be like there was only a handful of guys doing this shit and women you know and it was special but now it seems like all the everyone can do whatever that everyone could do it now and either but it's still different it's still different i mean sure i know i i know
Guest:Latin History for Morons, the way the audience felt, especially, obviously, if you were Latinx, I mean, the emotions that were going through people was so intense.
Guest:I could hear it on stage.
Guest:I could hear people gasping.
Guest:I could hear people moaning.
Guest:I could hear people sobbing quietly just because of all...
Guest:all the pain that I drugged up, you know what I mean?
Guest:And I knew it because I felt that when I was doing the research, how much pain I felt at the psychosocial erasure of Latin people, you know, because we're like the largest minority in this country, largest ethnic group, you know, we're almost 70 million people
Guest:Americans in this country, including my undocumented Latin brothers and sisters, we're the largest voting bloc, 32 million registered voters, 73% Democratic.
Guest:We're 30% of the public schools in the nation.
Guest:We're 50% of the population in LA, equal to whites in New York City in population, and less than 3% of the faces on camera, less than 2% of the faces behind the camera, less than 1% of the stories being told.
Guest:The smallest represented ethnic group in children's picture books.
Guest:How sad is that, that a child can't even see himself reflected back in a positive way?
Guest:Can't find himself in a comic book, can't find himself in a picture book, can't find himself.
Guest:How does that child project himself into the future?
Guest:That's psychosocial erasure.
Guest:That's how we Latin people have come from, you know, and we continue to thrive and survive.
Guest:We contribute $1.3 trillion to the US economy every year.
Guest:If we were our own country, we'd be the 10th largest country in the world, bigger than England.
Guest:Our women are number one in small business creations at 87%.
Guest:We saved the housing market at 68 percent last year.
Guest:God damn it.
Guest:Give me my equal opportunity.
Guest:Give me my equal share of the fucking box office of representation.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Yeah, I thought that was an interesting line because it's like it was sort of a throwaway line in the in the new movie and critical thinking the film that you directed.
Marc:But like, you know, I was sort of hung up on when you said that these textbooks are written in Texas.
Marc:You know, that is true.
Marc:I know it's true.
Marc:I make that up.
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:But but but like there there is a control like what you're saying, the systemic racism, it also is has this profound effect on the Latino community.
Marc:You know, it's brown people in general and that what the information these kids are getting in public schools is incredibly limited by design.
Guest:And I absolutely.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I thought it was control.
Guest:It controls power.
Guest:It controls.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Who if the if the hunter gets to tell the story, you're never going to hear the lion's side.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, and we let people happen to be the lion's side because we didn't just get here.
Guest:We've been here for 500 years.
Guest:We discovered America.
Guest:We found it.
Guest:We built it.
Guest:The British took it from us.
Guest:The Americans took the Southwest.
Right.
Guest:And before that, we were indigenous empires, the biggest in the world, Incas, Mayas, Aztecs, Comanche, Apache.
Guest:And we're still contributing.
Marc:Well, I'm sorry.
Marc:I lived in New Mexico when I was a kid.
Marc:And so I apologize.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:New Mexico.
Guest:I love New Mexico.
Guest:Yo, it's all Democrat.
Marc:No, it's beautiful.
Marc:I was just there.
Marc:I grew up in Albuquerque.
Marc:I just went up to Taos for four days just to hang out and clear my fucking head, man.
Marc:I can't take this shit.
Guest:That's what everybody does out there.
Guest:Everybody's always going to Taos to clear their head.
Marc:Yeah, I didn't realize it was such a thing.
Marc:When I was a kid, we'd go ski there, but I never went as a grown-up.
Marc:It was the first time I went as a grown-up, and it was like, holy shit, this is beautiful.
Marc:You seem very clear-headed.
Marc:Right now, I'm all right.
Marc:This morning wasn't great.
Guest:No, for nobody, for anybody, trust me.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I didn't have towels, but I still wasn't clear headed.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I, uh, but, uh, but when I grew up, I think Albuquerque was like 60 or 70% Chicano.
Marc:And it was like, it was just, it was just, that was what it was, man.
Marc:You know, I knew like, I love when he said, I was watching, uh, one of the oldies that I think I was watching Spicker Ramen.
Marc:Didn't you have a friend named Chewy?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:You must have had some Chewy.
Marc:There were some Chewys, man.
Marc:But that was usually because their last name was Archuleta.
Marc:So it was Chewy.
Guest:I love that name, Chewy, man.
Guest:It's such a dope name.
Marc:It's great.
Guest:Such a Chicano flavor, yeah.
Marc:For fucking sure, man.
Marc:There's a Coke dealer who used to sell at the comedy store named Chewy.
Marc:He used to wear a bowler hat, that big black jacket.
Marc:Chewy.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:The little Chicano look, the homie look.
Guest:You know the word homie comes from
Marc:chicano brothers in jail asking what hometown are you from are you from my hometown are you my homeboy that's where the word homeboy comes oh no shit it was yeah it was weird when i was growing up because like you grew up on the east coast so the the the the kind of different yeah the spectrum of of latin is different like where i grew up more caribbean yeah when i where i grew up is all uh you know mexican latinos and i was in high school
Marc:when the shift from i don't i think you're a little younger than me i don't know but i was in high school when the shift from disco to cholo happened like you know like 77 you know everyone's wearing a leather jacket platform shoes feather hair you know but by 1980 fucking button-up flannels you know chinos white t-shirt bandanas like everything fucking shifted what do you what do you think that was what do you think that was what do you think
Marc:I think it was a movement in, you know, claiming Latino identity.
Marc:Oh, political, political.
Marc:Well, I mean, I just think it was sort of, it was some sort of reaction.
Marc:I'm sure there's somebody that knows better than I do.
Marc:But, you know, the lowrider thing, I mean, I saw the transition.
Marc:There was a time where, you know, it was just like, you know, leather jackets and feathered hair and, you know, the fucking bell bottoms and shit.
Marc:And then all of a sudden the cholo thing happened.
Marc:It was like, it was definitely activism.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, you know, that's the same thing that was happening here.
Guest:Although, you know, this side is definitely much more Caribbean and obviously Colombian, Cuban, Puerto Rican, Dominican and Ecuadorians and Peruvians.
Guest:We got a lot here, too.
Guest:But that happens.
Guest:I remember that late 70s, too.
Guest:Like it was a disco scene.
Guest:Everybody three piece suits.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then all of a sudden everybody started getting hip hop.
Guest:You know, it was the birth of hip hop in New York City, too, you know, in the VX.
Guest:And everybody started changing, you know.
Guest:Everybody started wearing baggy, baggy clothes.
Marc:Right, same shit.
Guest:Baggy t-shirts.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know, the baseball hats.
Marc:Everyone got a little harder.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Fronting, a little fronting.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:And it was totally a different vibe and less, you know, less cocaine, more weed, more guns, you know.
Guest:Oh, yeah, it got a little tougher.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It must have been also...
Guest:linked up to stagflation because that's also when that happened you know the country was in terrible inflationary uh uh dire straits you know right yeah man and the economy was bad you know and obviously the people who suffer the most are always black and brown people at the bottom and that's where you kind of i mean that is the pop culture that you grew up in oh yeah i mean disco to hip-hop that was my life trying to break dance have my cardboard box that
Guest:You know, I could belly spin, lick my hair out of my head, almost dislocated my neck.
Guest:When I broke dance, I broke things.
Guest:That's how that came out.
Marc:So did you ever get the hang of breakdance?
Guest:I just look better for wear.
Marc:No, you do.
Marc:You look good, man.
Marc:You're holding up.
Marc:You're holding up.
Marc:You really are.
Guest:Brown don't frown.
Marc:Yeah, it was weird.
Marc:I mean, can you watch your old shit?
Marc:Because I decided, like, I watched a new movie, Critical Thinking, which I liked, and I thought it was a noble undertaking to sort of share the story of those kids.
Marc:Because, like, really kind of, like, disenfranchised, poor.
Guest:Noble?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Marc:I mean like to, uh, I mean to celebrate, you know, the underdog and to celebrate the underdog, you know, in a, in a sort of economically compromised way.
Marc:Like these aren't characters you see all the time.
Marc:So I, I, I met noble in, in that it was, it was good, you know, thank you.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:It was an important film for me.
Guest:Cause you know, uh,
Guest:I love these feel-good movies and I think they're really important for us to have much more positive images of Latin people than negative because then, you know, at least it's vulnerable to demonization like what happened in El Paso where they shot 23...
Guest:innocent latin people just being latin during shopping in the mall yeah so you know and you know hate crimes are up against latin people every other group is down except latin people jews up we're up jews are up jews are up not as much as latin people but yeah but yeah we don't want to compete for that that's not yeah yeah we're winning it's not a good time to be latin and jewish yeah which are my kids they're both they have both oh really yeah yeah my kids are half jews little jew ricans um
Marc:right it's a beautiful mix it's a great mix no no for sure yeah yeah yeah uh so you you thought it was important to tell the story and it's sort of like it reminded me of those movies like stand and deliver like yeah my favorite my favorite movie ever man i love that flick yeah so you know because it was inspiring to me like as a young man to see that and go sorry about that uh uh
Guest:Sorry about that.
Guest:As a young man, to see that was so inspiring to me.
Guest:It was like, oh, my God, we can do great things.
Guest:We can be mentors.
Guest:We can uplift.
Guest:And so to follow in those footsteps is such an honor for me, you know.
Guest:And I found this story of five Latin and black kids from the ghettoist ghetto in Miami over town.
Guest:That in 1998, this teacher, Mary Martinez, made them regional champs all over Florida, kicked ass everywhere.
Marc:And they had no supplies.
Guest:In chess.
Guest:In chess.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:In chess.
Guest:And then state champions and then took them all the way to national champs in America.
Guest:They won.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They won.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's like it's a great it's a it's a great underdog story because it breaks stereotypes.
Marc:And, you know, you you're able to play these.
Marc:Yeah, you can play these kids who are sort of like they're stuck in that world of trying to front a little bit, but they're innately intelligent and kind of nerdy and they're chess geeks.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:But they still live in this world of hardened criminals and poverty.
Marc:And, you know, it's just it's I always like seeing that you I mean, you did that in Spickerama, too.
Marc:I mean, the narrator of Spickerama, you know, was a nerdy kid.
Marc:And you don't make these associations all the time.
Marc:Is that being part of the stereotype?
Marc:And it's there's a vulnerability to it built in that that is very, you know, engaging and endearing, you know.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Because there's a lot of ghetto nerds and a lot of gifted kids in our communities, street intellectuals.
Guest:Yeah, they exist.
Guest:I mean, that's what that's that's what America doesn't doesn't understand that, you know, there are millions of gifted kids in these communities that just
Guest:Never get to shine, never get tapped on the shoulder by somebody, never get mentored.
Guest:And they wasted lives and wasted dreams.
Marc:They get just steamrolled or bullied or turned out by criminal culture.
Marc:But I know.
Marc:I mean, I was like, you know, I was ignorant.
Marc:I didn't know there were black nerds until maybe eight years ago, you know, and it was so ridiculous, even with the existence of Urkel.
Marc:So what did I just watch that documentary just by coincidence on on Wynn Handman?
Marc:And he seemed like an impressive guy that seemed to have some some impact on you.
Marc:Is that right?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:You know, he just passed of COVID.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Two months ago.
Guest:98.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Incredible.
Guest:What a national treasure he was.
Guest:And he was inspirational to me, to Eric Boghossian, to Denzel Washington, Alec Baldwin, all these great actors studied in his class.
Guest:And he was instrumental in my beginnings.
Guest:I brought Mama Mal to his class.
Guest:and and he got a kick out of my crazy ass do we go big in all these costumes and doing all these crazy characters and he would talk to me like he was interviewing like he was uh david suskind or something talking to my characters and i would have these weird conversations that the class would kind of be amused by and and then eventually i had these five characters and and um
Guest:He put it up in his theater.
Guest:I mean, he didn't really put me up in his theater.
Guest:He didn't totally believe in me because he put me in the hallway and it had to be done before the main stage show.
Guest:And they had a platform and 70 fold of seats that they would get rid of before the real show.
Marc:Oh, so this was at the American Place Theater?
Guest:American Place Theater.
Guest:And then the Frank Rich Review came out and then boom, the house was full of Sam Shepard, Arthur Miller.
Guest:Olympia Dukakis, JFK Jr.
Guest:It was incredible.
Marc:To come see you?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, let me just go back.
Marc:So you first started doing it in his class.
Marc:So how do you go to an acting class and say, I want to take up the whole class with my five characters?
Marc:I mean, why him and what got you there?
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's the beauty of him.
Guest:He was he was OK.
Guest:I don't think any other teacher in America would have been OK, but he he did only we only did one character at a time before.
Guest:So one character per class was allowed.
Guest:So the next time I either bring it back or bring a different one.
Guest:And that that's how we built it in his classroom.
Marc:Because it seems to me that between you and Eric, he was sort of instrumental in in in helping you in helping this form exist.
Guest:Yes, he was instrumental in it.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:Because he believed in it.
Guest:He loved it.
Guest:I guess he was really old school, and he knew everything about every play.
Guest:Noel Coward, Eugene O'Neill, Sam Shepardy, whatever play you threw at him, he knew about it and knew how to make it work.
Guest:He was a master.
Marc:Yeah, and did he help you connect at all through a story?
Marc:Or was that you?
Guest:Well, that was everybody was connected geographically, not so much story-wise.
Guest:It was only two or three tiny little links.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:They were more separate.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But they were just in the same neighborhood and they heard about each other.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And when I got to Spekarama, it was a family.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that's why that one became much more connected because they were all talking about a wedding that they were going to.
Guest:It had a little bit of a Rashomon kind of technique.
Marc:Yeah, it holds up, you know.
Marc:It was funny.
Marc:I mean, I watched it last night.
Marc:I like to do that sometimes when I talk to dudes that have been around for a long time or women where it's just sort of like, you know, I wonder what they were like when they were kids.
Marc:And you're like, oh, there's video of it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:They got footage.
Marc:Yeah, a lot of footage of them as kids.
Marc:You can't watch that shit.
Marc:When was the last time you watched that stuff?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:Why would I watch it?
Guest:What's the point of that?
Marc:You know why I do it?
Marc:I know, but I've done it because in my mind, sometimes as a performer, I don't even know who that guy was back then.
Marc:right right right right but then like you watch it like i watched shit from 1989 on evening at the improv and i and i thought like i didn't have no voice i didn't have no point of view i didn't know who i was and then i watched it and then you like i did yeah it was me what the fuck was i thinking why was i so hard on myself you know right right right that that that is that is the i think the point of it is you go back and you look at yourself damn i was so brutal on myself i used to pound myself
Guest:I wasn't as bad as I thought.
Guest:Because even though you're winning awards or you're on Broadway or whatever, getting Emmy nominated, you still don't believe it.
Guest:You're still whoever you are to yourself.
Guest:You're holding an award.
Guest:It doesn't really change how you look at yourself.
Guest:It doesn't really change.
Guest:It didn't change me.
Guest:I mean, I was still the same guy, even though I was nominated.
Guest:I was like, I'm still me.
Guest:I've still got my demons.
Guest:I still, you know, I'm always like, it's extra hard.
Marc:That demon's so fucking weird, though, that one.
Marc:You know, it's like, do you ever sort of, do you know where it came from?
Guest:Well, obviously, tough childhood.
Guest:My dad was incredibly hypocritical.
Guest:So, yeah, I know where it comes from.
Guest:I've been in therapy all my life.
Marc:Really?
Guest:I paid for that knowledge.
Guest:Thousands of dollars.
Marc:But he was hypercritical but not physically abusive?
Guest:Yeah, both.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Thank God for the physical abuse because it made me really hate authority and made me really disconnect from him.
Guest:So that was a good thing.
Marc:Oh yeah.
Marc:I mean, I, I, I try to do that too, where, you know, my dad, you know, he was a raging monster and you just try to, you sit there and try to separate, like, I must've got a couple of good things from him.
Marc:And you kind of make too much work.
Guest:It's too much work to tease out.
Guest:I'm sure there's some good, but fuck that.
Marc:The best you can get is like, he was charming with strangers.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He was great when he was drunk.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you, you got peace around that shit.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Guest:I think so.
Guest:I've been in therapy since I was 17.
Guest:I was made to go to therapy in high school because I was that problem child that wouldn't let teachers teach class.
Guest:So either I was expelled.
Guest:Huh?
Marc:Making jokes.
Guest:Yeah, cracking jokes, practical joker, locking teachers out of the room, stuffing the water fountains, keeping teachers in elevators, all kinds of fun stuff.
Marc:Sounds like you had a whole list of things.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I had a whole program.
Marc:So they forced you into therapy.
Guest:Yeah, which was great.
Guest:Obviously, I was incredibly resistant to it.
Guest:Cause I was 17 and what 17 year old guy wants to be in therapy talking about their problems with, with a stranger.
Guest:But eventually it was like, I started to realize that,
Guest:The good of it, you know, and I started to flip, flip my whole perspective of life and the self-sabotaging and self-destructiveness started to like, oh, oh, I'm out.
Guest:I'm I'm I'm doing myself.
Guest:I didn't realize.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What the fuck is that one?
Marc:You know, like I'm trying to figure out if I if I've got a handle on that.
Marc:Why do we self-sabotage and self?
Marc:destroy because, because, you know, we assume we're shit because of whatever we were told.
Marc:So we honor that narrative.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Cause we were comfortable with that narrative.
Guest:We know that narrative.
Marc:Right.
Guest:It feels familiar.
Guest:We think it's love.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But it's not.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Oh man.
Guest:And you continue and you continue it till you break it and you go, Oh, I am, it's not, the world's not doing that to me.
Guest:I'm doing it and perpetuating it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's all inside job.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, right, right, right, right.
Marc:But you never got... What was your primary means of self-sabotage?
Marc:You weren't a drug guy, were you?
Guest:No, no, I wasn't a drug guy.
Guest:That was not my thing.
Guest:It was just...
Guest:I guess just hostile and aggressive, very, very aggressive.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Yeah, you were an asshole.
Guest:And always making fun of people.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, kind of.
Guest:When I was funny, I wasn't.
Guest:And then when I missed, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:That's how you measure it.
Guest:That joke worked.
Guest:That one, you're now you're an asshole.
Marc:Yeah, that one, that lady's crying.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Guest:Yeah, people from high school still say, I remember the time you made me cry.
Guest:And I'm like, I'm sorry.
Guest:I'm always apologizing.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Well, it's like that bully thing.
Marc:You know, you got a parent that's a bully.
Marc:You're going to have a little of it in you and you got to kill it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Basically, you do.
Guest:You got to snuff it out.
Marc:Now, when you started doing like, well, what was it like?
Marc:Like in that?
Marc:I mean, we're going back, but I mean, to have Sam Shepard, Arthur Miller.
Marc:I mean, I mean, because like in a lot of ways you were John Malkovich.
Guest:Did I finish Raul Julia?
Guest:No, they all came on.
Guest:George Plimpton.
Guest:Remember him?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The same night.
It
Guest:It was only 70 seats.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:I wasn't in the real stage.
Guest:I was in the hallway.
Guest:I had to be done by 8 o'clock because it was a real show coming up.
Guest:But when the Frank Rich Review came out, all these people came to the show.
Marc:To the little show.
Guest:To the tiny little show.
Guest:Maybe they were going to go to the main show and they got there early.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It could have been that too.
Marc:Frank Rich is a smart guy.
Marc:I like reading that guy.
Guest:Is he still around?
Guest:Oh, yeah, but he's much more political.
Guest:He did a great article a couple years back on Roy Cohn.
Guest:That was unbelievable in New York Magazine.
Marc:Did Roy Cohn come see you?
Guest:Probably did.
Guest:I don't think so.
Guest:I don't think I was his flavor.
Guest:Did Trump come?
Guest:No, no, no, no.
Guest:I don't think he likes art.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't think he likes anything.
Guest:Some of the clubs.
Guest:I always just see Trump in the clubs.
Guest:He was at every premiere at every club.
Guest:Always scouting for talent, if you know what I mean.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, you mean in the dance clubs and shit?
Guest:Dance clubs, premieres, any party, anybody who's always there.
Marc:That's the funny thing about people who have been in New York their whole life.
Marc:That clown has been around forever.
Guest:Ever.
Guest:We knew he was a clown.
Guest:I mean, that's the thing.
Guest:You're always like, you know, there's that guy.
Guest:He's always and he's like, you know, scouting, scouting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I remember being on Conan O'Brien and he was the first guest and I was the second guest.
Marc:And, you know, the segment producer, Frank Smiley, you know, Frank?
Marc:I know Frank.
Guest:I know Frank forever.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So Frank says he comes into my dressing room.
Marc:He's like, you want to meet Trump?
Marc:And I'm like, you know what?
Marc:I don't.
Marc:Like, I knew then.
Marc:I'm like, what am I going to say to that fucking guy?
Guest:What do you got to say to him?
Guest:You got nothing in common.
Guest:You knew he wasn't rich.
Marc:It's a creep.
Marc:He was just a creep, you know?
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Basically, basically.
Guest:That's why we all knew in New York City.
Guest:That's why when you saw The Apprentice, you didn't believe it.
Guest:You knew it was all made up.
Guest:It was a sitcom, basically.
Marc:It's such a fucking nightmare.
Marc:So...
Marc:Did you talk to any of those people, though?
Marc:Did you become like, do you have peers?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Well, because I realized that there was only one exit out.
Guest:So as soon as I was done, I would run outside to the backstage door and go to that front door and be at that door as they were walking out.
Guest:They'd have to talk to me.
Guest:And he had to say something nice because you can't be mean if you meet me by the front.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And Arthur Miller was so tall, man.
Guest:Really?
Guest:He was a big, lanky dude.
Guest:Big, lanky Jew.
Guest:And Sam Shepard's a tall, lanky.
Guest:He was like, to be a playwright, you got to be tall and lanky.
Yeah.
Marc:I'm going to have to work extra hard.
Marc:Did they say anything to you that resonated or meant anything?
Marc:Or did you end up being friends with them?
Guest:They were generically positive.
Guest:So yeah, that was cool.
Guest:I just took it as that.
Guest:There was nothing real specific that they gave me.
Marc:Who was your director on a couple?
Marc:You work with Spike?
Marc:Peter Askin.
Marc:Peter Askin.
Marc:Peter Askin's your guy.
Guest:Yeah, we used to be really tight, Peter and I. I mean, I guess life takes you to different paths.
Guest:I still got a lot of great love for Peter.
Marc:And what about Spike?
Marc:You work with him on a show and on a movie?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, Spike's the best, man.
Guest:I mean, I feel like when we did Summer of Sam,
Guest:I just felt like I really got to a whole new level in my acting because he just creates a safe space for you to do like whatever.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, and I, and I did whatever.
Guest:And Mira and Adrian, I mean, the performances from everybody was, we got to, it was the first time I went to Cannes.
Guest:We went in Cannes Film Festival together.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So exciting.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And like over time, like you, I mean, you work all the fucking time.
Marc:So what determines, like I watched, I watched some of Casualties of War.
Marc:No, I didn't.
Marc:I watched that.
Marc:That Brian De Palma documentary.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Marc:But you were like 12 when you did that.
Marc:Basically, basically.
Marc:That was like one of your first jobs, right?
Guest:My very first film job.
Guest:It was incredible.
Guest:Here I am with Sean Penn and Michael J. Fox.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we're in Thailand for six months.
Guest:And we had to go to boot camp, real boot camp, you know, like with poisonous snakes and with all the equipment, like the real equipment, the weight of it.
Marc:Right.
Guest:It was brutal.
Marc:And so, like, when you do acting, which you seem to do constantly, and you've worked with a lot of big people over the years, I'm sure people that you're big fans of, how do you make your decisions?
Marc:You just, you know, I mean, in terms of what you're going to do.
Guest:Well, usually it was always like something challenging to me that didn't feel boring or corny.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, since Hollywood wasn't for me, I didn't have to play any of their games.
Guest:So I just did what I wanted and I didn't care.
Guest:So it was like, you know, the clown in Spawn, something really insane and powerful that was fun for me.
Guest:Right.
Guest:To Wong Fu.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:With Wesley and Patrick, which was a blast.
Yeah.
Guest:And then Moulin Rouge with Baz Luhrmann, you know.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's interesting that you run these two worlds where, you know, you're a huge star with the on Broadway and stuff, but you'll do supporting roles.
Marc:You'll do TV work.
Marc:I mean, you're a working actor.
Guest:Oh, I like to work and I like to work on my craft and I like to, you know, you got to you can't stay at the top of your game if you're not playing.
Guest:I mean, like if you're a tennis player and you don't play for a year, your game is not going to be the same.
Guest:Same thing with acting, I believe.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And do you still do you train with a coach or a teacher still?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I still I still I still train with a coach.
Guest:I'm still doing readings.
Guest:I'm doing readings on Zoom with Ethan Hawke and Matthew Broderick.
Guest:I'm reading, waiting for Godot, you know, keeping our chops going.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:And you do that publicly or you just hang out with these guys on Zoom?
Guest:With Ethan, it's just the two of us waiting for Godot.
Guest:Matthew, we worked on it for a benefit.
Marc:Those guys are New York guys.
Marc:So you guys friends?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Big time.
Marc:Well, let's talk about how this like how how did this movie come together?
Marc:Because this is the first time you directed a movie, right?
Guest:i directed a feature for uh hbo was my first tv thing and i did some commercials and this is my first independent film feature debut so how who who presented you with the story how'd you get hooked up with the writer carla berkowitz and scott rosenfeld you know offered me the the teacher role yeah and uh and then i went to miami met with the teacher and the guys and
Guest:It was so incredible, man.
Guest:Their love for each other was so beautiful.
Guest:And yet they were always ribbing each other.
Marc:They're always like- Because this takes place in the late 90s.
Marc:So these guys are in their, what, 50s, some of them, right?
Marc:Or 40s.
Guest:40s, 40s.
Guest:I'd say early 40s, early to mid 40s.
Guest:And the teacher, obviously, he's up there.
Guest:And I just dug him, man.
Guest:I really dug their energy together.
Guest:It was so incredible how he had-
Guest:found these guys and then cultivated them to to the success and i found that so fascinating then they offered me to direct it because of my passion for the project and i was like you know what i think i can actually bring something to this movie i really think i got i got a clue i like i like chess i had to crack the code of how do you make that exciting and visual because it's not and how do you understand
Marc:How do you seem like you understand it in such a deep way?
Marc:I mean, that's an acting job.
Marc:I mean, you may like chess, but did you understand it as deeply as this guy had to?
Guest:Well, I'm very mathematical, so I was able to break it down, and I was able to break down how the teacher taught those kids.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so, because I'm mathematical, I was like, I grabbed all the best strategies and
Guest:pick the best ones for film and then broke them down on camera.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Sometimes I, I, you know, sometimes everybody was like, Oh, they're long, but I say, I want, I want to show how that happens, how that learning happens in a class.
Guest:I want to show it.
Guest:And, uh, and so I did, you know, by the end of the movie, you really think as an audience that you understand the moves of,
Guest:But you don't really know.
Guest:But I made you believe it because we had these lengthy classes where I'm showing you, you know, the first move, the second move, the third move and why the this the story behind it.
Guest:Like that guy, Marcel Martinez, the real guy.
Guest:When we do a blind chess, which is we usually put a blindfold or they turn your way.
Guest:And he can play up to 10 guys.
Guest:In the movie, he just played five or six of us.
Guest:And he doesn't see the board.
Guest:We just call out.
Guest:And he plays all of us at the same time.
Guest:That's a real skill that guy has?
Guest:That's his real skill.
Guest:He was going to be international chess champion of the world.
Guest:And he was disqualified on a technicality.
Guest:They said he wasn't naturalized.
Marc:in time some bullshit technology and he never played he was so heartbroken and crushed by that that he never played chess again oh my god really yes true story true story that's sad wow so i think but like in in terms of what you're saying as a guy you know where we're at in our life and and you're sort of um kind of uh
Marc:Passion and responsibility to somehow mentor young Latinos into into believing they can find something better in life.
Marc:This seems to be the natural arc from Latin history for morons into into this movie, you know, where I have to assume that throughout your career, people have approached you and thanked you for showing them that they there's another way to to express.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:And I think I think that's the payoff of life.
Guest:when it comes full circle, you know, I'm in the August of my years.
Guest:We're not that old, are we?
Guest:I think we're in the August.
Guest:It's not fall yet, but when it's winter, it's over.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Fine.
Marc:I'll take August.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The August of our years, you know, and then people come back and they say, you know, I write because of you.
Guest:I do comedy because of what I saw you do that you could do it.
Guest:And, you know, that's the big payoff, man.
Guest:That's what I wanted to do because when I was younger, you know, just –
Guest:didn't see yourself anywhere and it was almost impossible to believe that you could do anything but luckily i grew up in new york and it was like wait a minute i see movies i see comic books i see tv i know we don't exist there but wait a minute in my real life latin people are doing everything they're running things they're running shit they're they're closing deals they're doctors they're everywhere but yeah
Guest:In the other media where we don't exist.
Guest:So I knew there was a big bullshit disconnect between the real world and media.
Guest:I mean, it was just I knew that.
Guest:So that's what gave me the courage because I go, this is real world.
Guest:That's not.
Marc:That's interesting because it just struck me just now that being somebody who grew up like me, I grew up with open-minded parents, progressive people.
Marc:But because of the media that we take in, which is the only media available at that time, you do get a specific perception of the world, which was exclusionary.
Marc:And it's interesting to me how...
Marc:You know, when people are like, how the fuck are all these people Trump supporters?
Marc:Well, that's exactly the same thing they're doing.
Marc:They're feeding their brains on specific media that enforces their perception of what the world is like.
Marc:It's by choice, but it's the same propaganda.
Marc:It's the same tool.
Guest:It's a digital world where we all can live in our own bubble and never have it questioned.
Marc:But you're saying, though, is like the bubble used to be all of us and it was exclusionary and system systemically racist.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It was just I mean, it's just like they didn't even have a concern that they had to include us anywhere.
Guest:I mean, they had no reason to include us because nobody was calling them out.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But but we all felt it.
Guest:I mean, everybody felt it.
Guest:I mean.
Guest:that that's how Latin people can be demonized.
Guest:I mean, I, that's why that's my mission to stop that nonsense.
Guest:When I found out that Latin kids are the least represented in picture books and with 30% of the,
Guest:public school population across the country.
Guest:I mean, that was, that was heartbreaking to me, heartbreaking.
Guest:And it's my mission to do something about it.
Marc:It's crazy.
Marc:Well, thank you though.
Marc:Thanks for, for doing that.
Marc:And then thanks for making the, the, the touching movie and all the other work.
Guest:It's nice.
Guest:Try to remember me at the Emmys next time.
Guest:Will you?
Marc:Hey, look, if I ever get to the Emmys again, I'll, I'll make sure to say hello and I'll remember.
Guest:You'll be, you'll be there.
Guest:You'll be on all those award shows.
Guest:I know you will.
Marc:Okay, buddy.
Marc:Take it easy, man.
Guest:Take care of yourself for me.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Okay, that was John Leguizamo and me talking.
Marc:I feel like I just heard a sound.
Marc:Where was that coming?
Marc:Am I losing my mind now?
Marc:And now I'll do some things on my guitar.
Marc:Why not?
Marc:It's what I do here.
Guest:guitar solo
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Guest:Boomer.
Guest:Monkey.
Guest:La Fonda.
Guest:Live.
Guest:Fly on, feline angels.