Episode 1157 - Toni Collette
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck nicks what the fuckadelics what's happening are you holding up what's happening there what do you got going are you working on uh that shelf
Marc:Are you doing that woodwork?
Marc:Are you sanding?
Marc:Are you screwing things into things?
Marc:Are you putting things together?
Marc:Are you cleaning things?
Marc:I swear to God, the guy across the street is digging for rodents in the ground that I don't think are there.
Marc:I think people are losing it.
Marc:He's got the hose out.
Marc:He's got the shovel out.
Marc:I got no rodents in my yard.
Marc:I have a lot of birds.
Marc:I got to... I sit on my porch, and I believe there's woodpeckers here.
Marc:Is there woodpeckers in Los Angeles?
Marc:Because I saw one.
Marc:He seemed to be... He just didn't seem to be that engaged.
Marc:And then you just get into this waiting game.
Marc:Sometimes it's interesting.
Marc:You really have to kind of go with the flow if you're expecting nature to entertain you.
Marc:You've got to take in the whole picture.
Marc:You've got to be like, oh, this is nice.
Marc:It's really about this sort of peace and quiet and flow.
Marc:But that bird...
Marc:That bird, he does something.
Marc:And I wish he would start doing it.
Marc:And then he'll just peck a second.
Marc:And you're like, that was it.
Marc:Go, man.
Marc:Go.
Marc:And then you just wait.
Marc:And he can't seem to decide.
Marc:And then it becomes a very aggravating show.
Marc:And then you have to shift.
Marc:You have to shift to a squirrel.
Marc:But that's what you get.
Marc:That's the live entertainment I'm dealing with.
Marc:How are you guys doing?
Marc:You all right?
Marc:Oh, by the way, I'm sorry.
Marc:Toni Collette is on the show today.
Marc:You know her from The Sixth Sense, Little Miss Sunshine, Muriel's Wedding, Hereditary.
Marc:She's in the new Charlie Kaufman movie.
Marc:I'm thinking of ending things.
Marc:She's great.
Marc:The United States of Terror.
Marc:Anyway, she's the best.
Marc:And I talked to her.
Marc:And I think I took her to task a bit, probably unnecessarily, about the new Charlie Kaufman movie.
Marc:But anyways, you can listen to that in a minute.
Marc:I want to thank whoever suggested to, after listening to the Martin Short episode, I guess it was, that the Heartbreak Kid is actually available on YouTube.
Marc:Because you can't get it.
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:Someone laid it out for me.
Marc:I think it's part of a property that was bought by a larger entertainment company and they just don't give a fuck about making it available.
Marc:But I watched it again on YouTube because I guess I brought it up in the conversation with Martin or he had.
Marc:And what a great fucking movie.
Marc:You know, there's a few movies of that time that are of that ilk.
Marc:I would say The Graduate...
Marc:And, you know, five easy pieces to a certain degree in a way, but not quite just the idea of the kind of existential confusion of a generation.
Marc:The stories are different, but the momentum of the story is the same in terms of the character.
Marc:And I got to be honest with you, after seeing both of them several times, I'm going to say that the Heartbreak Kid is kind of a better movie than
Marc:I just realized that.
Marc:That's Elaine May.
Marc:And the graduate was Mike Nichols.
Marc:But I just like the way it was written.
Marc:I mean, sometimes Neil Simon can actually do some amazing things with character.
Marc:And I can't believe I even said that, but it's true.
Marc:There's a couple of scenes in that California Suite movie, as I said before, the stuff between Alan Alda and Jane Fonda, which was character-driven, but kind of beautifully written stuff.
Marc:And I don't know.
Marc:It was just great watching The Heartbreak Kid.
Marc:It was great watching the sort of cringy kind of unfolding of a relationship that should not have happened at all.
Marc:And then the ending of both.
Marc:The ending moments of both The Heartbreak Kid and The Graduate are just, they're spectacular.
Marc:Anyways, there you go.
Marc:I just gave you a very positive review of a movie from 1960-whatever.
Marc:1972.
Marc:So get out as quick as possible and get to your movie theater in 1972 and watch that movie.
Marc:Also, the other thing I'm doing, aside from taking in the news compulsively on my phone to the point where I annihilate my ability to have any hope whatsoever, I...
Marc:I somehow got obsessed with a band, which I'm very excited about.
Marc:I like when you get that sort of moment where you're like, you know, what is this?
Marc:And it's like old as shit.
Marc:So I'm going... I've been record shopping a bit because I've decided I want to spend some money to try to have a nice time even in the midst of this apocalypse.
Marc:And I picked up this double album, the collection of the Incredible String Band, and I'd never heard of them before.
Marc:Now, look, I'm not...
Marc:You know, I'm not adverse to hippie shit and I'm not.
Marc:I am a little adverse to Renaissance fairs.
Marc:And there are certain strands of folk music that don't didn't used to resonate with me.
Marc:But this incredible string band shit, something about it, the layers of it, the depth of it, the looseness of it, just the whole vibe of it.
Marc:It just I don't know.
Marc:It locked in.
Marc:I locked in.
Marc:It hooked me.
Marc:So then, of course, I'm like, I got to learn about this band.
Marc:I got to I got to get all the important albums.
Marc:I knew that they existed as a band from a book.
Marc:I have the hundred essential albums that one must have.
Marc:And I saw one in there and I had no idea who they were.
Marc:So it was just sort of in the back of my head.
Marc:Now I now I do know who they are.
Marc:And I went nuts and I had to get you know, I had to get their first.
Marc:I think I think consensus is the.
Marc:first four albums so i'm finding it haunting and deep and transcendent in a way takes me to a different place so that's exciting and also i've decided i've decided that the kinks
Marc:Lola versus Power Man and the Money Ground part one.
Marc:1970 is the best Kinks album.
Marc:Now, look, I'm no music intellectual.
Marc:I'm no music historian.
Marc:I can't even tell you that I've listened to all the Kinks albums, but I do know the ones that people think are the best.
Marc:And I know some of you are out there who even give a shit about the Kinks.
Marc:They're like, dude, come on, man.
Marc:The Village Green Preservation Society, Muswa Hillbillies, certainly, you know, even Arthur.
Marc:But come on, Lola versus Power Man and the Money Ground part one.
Marc:Come on.
Marc:it's the best one i will stand by it i had almost a planet waves experience with it and i'm a kinks fan i like the early stuff i like misfits a lot but i like muzzle hillbillies i like the preservation green i like it but i never really put any time into lolo versus a power man and great fucking record
Marc:As you can see, I'm trying to be upbeat because I have had a wave of grief come back over me and it seems to be settling in.
Marc:I'm trying to not let it become depression.
Marc:I'm trying to let it stay sadness.
Marc:and not become depression.
Marc:But that's what's happening.
Marc:Now, a lot of people, and I'm not going to, I can't, I'll try to stay in this.
Marc:I'll try and stay into the solution here.
Marc:This company, Zoom, I think it's called, sent me all this tahini products because I had this mind-blowing experience putting...
Marc:Tahini on vanilla ice cream.
Marc:And I talked about it.
Marc:So this company, Zoom, sent me a chocolate tahini sauce.
Marc:And when I tasted it, I started crying and laughing at the same time.
Marc:And my body started to shake.
Marc:It's not a paid plug, man.
Marc:But holy fuck.
Marc:So that's what's going on.
Marc:A little of that.
Marc:And Toni Collette is here.
Marc:Now, I'm going to come at this again.
Marc:Man, I'm trying not to let the paranoia seep in.
Marc:It's so fucking hard to not know what's going to happen and see all this darkness.
Marc:I mean, it's smoky here.
Marc:Like, it's almost unbreathable.
Marc:And the other day, I got it into my head.
Marc:where I was like, I got to exercise, man.
Marc:I got to exercise to keep my sanity.
Marc:But dude, the air is almost unbreathable.
Marc:I got to exercise.
Marc:And there was a couple of days where my eyes hurt, my throat hurt, my chest hurt.
Marc:And I'm like, this is fucked up.
Marc:I got to get out of this state.
Marc:I may still have to do that.
Marc:But yesterday, I'm like, I checked my little app.
Marc:I got some app that tells me the air quality.
Marc:It wasn't great, but it wasn't as bad as it could be.
Marc:And I said, well, this is the way it's going to be, man.
Marc:This is the way it is from here on out.
Marc:So if we're going to survive, if what living is now is just the sort of day-to-day struggle of literally surviving until shit gets even worse, then if I'm going to choose to do that, we have to learn to adapt, right?
Marc:So I took one of my N95 masks and I went out to my hike and it was a Saturday and there wasn't anyone really there.
Marc:And I was like, fuck it.
Marc:Fuck the air.
Marc:Fuck the smoke.
Marc:And I did the entire hike with an N95 mask on, not because of COVID, but because of the fucking air.
Marc:And I just did it.
Marc:I focused in.
Marc:I got into sort of a I would never compare myself to a firefighter, but I'm like, they do it.
Marc:I'm doing it.
Marc:I got the mask.
Marc:This is what it's going to be.
Marc:This is what life is like from here on out.
Marc:Deal with it.
Marc:Adapt.
Marc:I did the hike and the next day my lungs felt like shit.
Marc:But I'm okay.
Marc:I'm going to adapt.
Marc:I'm going to fucking adapt.
Marc:Man, I don't know what's going to happen.
Marc:Five minutes in front of me.
Marc:God damn it.
Marc:So look, Tony Collette is here.
Marc:I did get a little intense about the Charlie Kaufman movie.
Marc:Is it Kaufman or Kaufman?
Marc:Charlie Kaufman movie.
Marc:I'm still thinking about it to a certain degree, but it's really like it's not a matter of like what I took away from the movie.
Marc:It's a matter of like, what was that?
Marc:Now, I'm not dismissing it.
Marc:I'm not diminishing it.
Marc:It's a long, very well thought out, very sort of meticulously edited and shot and conceived movie.
Marc:I just I just look, I just.
Marc:I did.
Marc:The issue I had was really I get it.
Marc:There's a lot of, you know, teeming thoughts.
Marc:There's a lot of, you know, insect brain machinations going on.
Marc:Kaufman's a genius.
Marc:It's just I don't I don't like walking away from a movie not knowing what the fuck it was about.
Marc:Maybe I'm stupid.
Marc:But, you know, art is art, and I should let it pass over me and through me and sort of, you know, masticate it a lot mentally and kind of work it out.
Marc:I do know that it got me to see Women Under the Influence again.
Marc:I enjoyed, there's one beat in it.
Marc:that I thought was great during one of the dance numbers.
Marc:It's when I think the water fountain comes on.
Marc:I thought that's the best moment in the movie was the musical number when the water fountain starts.
Marc:That was really the best beat in the film for me was that water fountain during the dance number.
Marc:Serious.
Marc:But anyway, look, that takes nothing away from the fact that Toni Collette is a genius and a great actress.
Marc:Oh, one other thing I wanted to say.
Marc:Before I get into that, real quick, my old manager, Olivia Wingate, is now in the podcast racket.
Marc:And she's producing a new one that you might want to check out.
Marc:It's called Come On, Come Out.
Marc:And it's a scripted comedy podcast that's like a lesbian version of Alan Partridge.
Marc:Can you wrap your brain around that?
Marc:And it's got a bunch of funny women in it, like Mary Houlihan, Anna Gasteyer, and Gabby Hoffman.
Marc:Great.
Marc:Very talented people.
Marc:That's that's called Come On, Come Out.
Marc:It's launching tomorrow, September 15th, wherever you get your podcasts.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Look, Toni Collette.
Marc:Let's be honest.
Marc:Who doesn't love Toni Collette?
Marc:All right.
Marc:She is the star or one of the stars of I'm thinking of ending things and she's brilliant in it.
Marc:That, of course, is the new movie written and directed by Charlie Kaufman, who I've been talking about.
Marc:It's now streaming on Netflix.
Marc:And this is Toni Collette in Australia talking to me in Los Angeles coming right up.
Marc:Were you doing on-camera work today?
Guest:I've been zooming and doing press for the film all day.
Guest:So I really don't look like this very often.
Guest:And in fact, really don't ever look like this.
Guest:But I have people here making me look this way.
Marc:That's a nice room.
Marc:Is that a hotel room?
Guest:It's a hotel room.
Guest:And, you know, I would have done it all at home, but it started incredibly early and I have children and a husband and it wouldn't have worked.
Guest:So they've got a hotel room.
Guest:I'm actually looking.
Guest:How can I show you this?
Guest:There's an opera house.
Marc:Oh, the opera house?
Guest:oh look at that very close this room is on the second floor and you feel very close to the water and you feel like you can touch the opera house which i mean i live here i grew up in sydney i still love that building it is an unbelievable architectural feat nothing looks like that thing that's the only thing that looks like that sailboats maybe i've been to uh i've been to sydney a long time ago i was there i think it was probably 2006
Guest:Yeah, that is long ago now.
Marc:I was a sad man.
Marc:There was a sad comedy club over in some sad area that was some sort of failed fair area.
Marc:There was like a movie theater and it was like some area that was used to be like, was it for some bigger event and it just sort of never happened or something?
Marc:I know there was a movie theater.
Marc:There was this comedy club and it looked like a World's Fair almost like area that
Guest:Well, was it next to Fox Studios?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:What is that?
Guest:It's called something really interesting like the Entertainment District.
Marc:Right, right.
Guest:Oh, so you had a great time, it sounds like.
Marc:Well, the guy who owned the comedy club took me to the zoo.
Marc:That was okay.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:And I went to Bondi Beach with Luke Davies.
Marc:Do you know Luke Davies?
Guest:i know luke yes i do yeah he saved me oh he often um i do know he loves north bondi and often rents some place that a friend of his owns that looks straight out to the ocean at ben buckler uh-huh did you stay with him there or i didn't stay with him i just visited him we hung out and then i went to that place where you can swim in that pool that i think is ocean water it's right there on the beach there's the icebergs at bondi yeah
Guest:There's also one at Maroubra.
Guest:There's one at Coogee.
Guest:There are two in Coogee called Wiley's Bards, which are pretty great.
Guest:It was great.
Guest:I used to be able to sneak into them at night.
Guest:It was so, so lovely.
Marc:Is that what you did when you were a teenager?
Guest:I did a bit of that, yeah.
Guest:I remember experiencing phosphorescence for the first time, and I remember standing on the rocks at the beach at Bronte,
Guest:with a couple of girlfriends and we'd been swimming and i stood on the rocks and did like a fake tap dance and all these sparks were coming off my feet it was so beautiful what what what causes that what is that it's a chemical reaction in the water i don't actually quite understand myself but it lights up it looks like fireflies oh wow so when you splash in the water have you never seen it it's magical not in person does it only happen in australia
Guest:No, I saw it once.
Guest:Oh, that was Australia too.
Guest:Sorry.
Guest:Maybe.
Guest:No, it doesn't just happen in Australia.
Marc:It sounds like an Australian thing.
Guest:I think it happens everywhere, but it's rare.
Guest:Something has to be lined up for it to happen.
Guest:It doesn't just happen all the time.
Marc:so what's going on there are you like yeah how bad like uh is is life it's terrible or is it is it uh what's the lockdown situation yeah i talked to uh sarah snook in melbourne i think they like can't they're under martial law there melbourne is really suffering um i'm in sydney as you know the opera house and it's very different here i mean we i was shooting in toronto
Guest:And actually, I wasn't shooting.
Guest:I was in prep and I didn't even get to shoot.
Guest:And then I got on.
Guest:I was there for two weeks, flew home in the middle of March.
Guest:And I was on the flight where they announced you had to self-isolate for two weeks if you were flying into the country.
Guest:So I did that with my family and then went into lockdown and everyone was in lockdown for a couple of months.
Guest:Different states have had their own rules.
Guest:And it was weird when it ended because it was like it never happened.
Guest:People just went back to like.
Guest:Stupid.
Guest:Sweating in jeans next to each other and going out for dinner and hugging and kissing and.
Guest:touching ah anyway it all the shit hit the fan in melbourne and it's all it's a big relapse it was mishandled misjudged and it's very sad what's going on there sydney you can masks are optional you can go and eat you can wander around masks are optional yeah do you have a who's in charge there
Guest:Nobody.
Guest:There's no rule.
Guest:It's not mandatory.
Guest:So you just kind of choose whether you want to die or not, basically.
Guest:Do I wear a mask to the shopping center and share the air with everyone or not?
Marc:You have an idiot in charge of the country as well or no?
Guest:just ineffective not as much as a moron perhaps but just really ineffective not as damaging oh very beige so did you when did you go back there did you didn't you live out here for a while yes and i used to drive around listening to you and it was so much fun and i can't believe i'm talking to you this is such a trip um i lived in la for four years and we moved home at the end of 2018
Marc:Now, okay, so let's track it because I'm trying to... I feel like I've seen you in a lot of movies, but you've done a lot more movies than I've seen.
Marc:And it seems like you do nine movies a year.
Guest:I think the top has been five, which is slightly absurd.
Guest:But some jobs are only...
Guest:two weeks or and you know they vary i get it and i wouldn't do it if i was going to cause myself some kind of nervous breakdown i actually love what i do uh but i also love being a mother so i balance it out well how new how how new is that how old is your oldest kid 12 oh so it's been 12 years of that yep but let's okay maybe we start with this movie because i did just watch this movie how did you go with it he frustrates me you don't but uh kaufman does
Marc:Because it's like, you know, he tries to get everything in, like literally everything in.
Marc:It feels to me that he, you know, he's so smart.
Marc:He's so self-aware.
Marc:He has intellectual capacity to challenge himself and you and question everything.
Marc:And he seems to find a need to put that when he directs a movie and writes it, it needs to be loaded up with everything that fucking guy knows and everything he thinks about.
Marc:So, given that, you know, a lot of times within 10 minutes, I'm like, no, fuck this guy.
Marc:I mean, fuck him.
Marc:So, but that's my problem with him.
Guest:I'd say that's a success.
Guest:What a great reaction.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I guarantee that has to be what he's looking for, because it's he does not want to predetermine or ever manipulate the audience.
Guest:I think he puts so many ideas into this film and others, but specifically this.
Guest:And it's very changeable.
Guest:And the ground keeps moving and it keeps challenging you.
Guest:But it's also very sensitive, like it's complex, but it's sensitive.
Guest:You know, there's a real tenderness to it.
Guest:And I think he does have love for humanity.
Guest:But I think depending on your experience, where you're at, you'll hook in on different levels.
Guest:Right.
Marc:So I'm being argumentative.
Marc:I love the guy.
Marc:I've talked to the guy.
Marc:I think he's a genius.
Marc:I, you know, if, you know, you were great.
Guest:You kind of suddenly find out if I how I really felt about Charlie Kaufman.
Guest:I think he's a genius.
Guest:And I think there's nobody like him.
Guest:And originality is everything that's lacking in our industry.
Guest:And it's so exciting to work with a mind like that.
Marc:Yes, I agree with that.
Marc:You know, the thing about geniuses and singular talents is that, you know, they run the risk of being annoying.
Marc:And I...
Guest:I don't agree.
Guest:I find it incredibly inspirational and exciting.
Guest:And working is definitely that as well.
Guest:But I've been a fan of his for so long.
Guest:I love everything he's worked on.
Guest:I really do.
Marc:Well, I think I'm craving to have a conversation about the film because there is stuff in it that I really – this is my reaction to somebody who's sort of blown me away.
Marc:I think it held together better than Synecdoche, New York, which I really had a hard time with.
Marc:But I think he was dealing with a lot of the same kind of things that he likes to deal with.
Marc:But but this one to me, you know, it did feel like a movie.
Marc:It felt like three or four movies.
Marc:And and I and I do like there, you know, the things that I like the best about it, oddly, where I loved your performance.
Marc:I like Jesse Plemons a lot.
Marc:I like, you know, I liked everyone's.
Marc:you're probably just saying that to me because you're talking to me no no no no no i i i liked all the performances quite honestly and but the the other parts that i liked i like when the water fountain came on when they were dancing and i like that sequence amazing yeah isn't the dance that's amazing yeah it's so beautiful and i and i loved my one of my favorite parts was the uh musical at the end uh which i don't mean to spoil anything but i think it's a hard and i and i really want to see a woman on the on the under the influence again
Marc:I walk away from that movie like I want to I want to see Gina Rollins do.
Marc:You know, I want to.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But but like when you get presented a script like that, you know, like how do you even read that and how do you process it?
Marc:Did you get a whole script?
Guest:Yeah, I did.
Guest:I was told that Charlie wanted to talk to me about a project that he had.
Guest:I was sent this script.
Guest:I read it.
Guest:I was blown away.
Guest:I mean, it's so rich and so textual and complex, and I love it when things are ambiguous.
Guest:You can read different ideas into it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then when I spoke to him, we kind of clarified it a bit more
Guest:And weirdly, it's kind of strange that it's coming out now because ultimately it's about this lonely guy who's disconnected and just living with memory and sadness and guilt and regret and hope and longing and loss and all of those things that we feel at different moments.
Guest:But it comes thick and fast during the course of the film and it's coming thick and fast in reality now.
Guest:So I find that timing really kind of incredible.
Marc:You mean the bleakness?
Guest:the deep feeling of it all.
Marc:So that's what the movie's about.
Marc:It's about a guy who's lonely and reflecting.
Guest:I think, did you watch the whole film or are you telling me you turned it off?
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Just checking.
Guest:I watched it all.
Guest:So you're telling me, you're telling me it's all about several different things.
Guest:And in actual fact, I can't talk about what have, what the real constructivity of it is, which, which you realize at the end of the movie, because it would give it away.
Guest:I know, but, but I talked about the narrative of the, of this boy bringing his relatively new girlfriend home to meet his parents and how,
Guest:strange and awkward and tense it is and how things keep flashing and changing and how everything's not as it seems but that's like the simple version of the movie but you read that script and said oh it's about the guy in the truck um i can't remember what i initially thought but i do remember having an idea about it which was close but no cigar and charlie had to explain it and charlie told you it was about the guy in the truck
Guest:I can't talk about it in this way, Marc Maron.
Marc:It'll just give too much away.
Marc:Give too much away.
Marc:No one knows what I'm talking about.
Marc:And even if they see the movie, they're not going to know what I'm talking about until the last bit.
Guest:So naughty right now.
Guest:All right.
Marc:It doesn't, it doesn't, like, I think, because, like, I, like, I, look, the conversation I'm having with you, although, you know, I sound like I'm being weirdly argumentative, I had to sit with Paul Thomas Anderson and make him explain certain movies of his to me because I was mad at him.
Marc:So maybe you're not the one to be talking about this with.
Marc:But but, you know, like for me, because I when somebody presents like Kaufman presents, you know, I'm going to think I'm going to think I have to understand all elements of this and what he's trying to do.
Marc:And I know that ultimately it's a much simpler undertaking than what I'm seeing it as, because he has this idea in his head, but it's all grounded somewhere, you know, but I don't necessarily see that.
Guest:I'm coming into this totally abstract, free-falling situation.
Guest:I understand.
Guest:I haven't read the novel, by the way.
Guest:It's based on a novel.
Guest:Oh, you did.
Guest:I had not read.
Guest:No, I didn't read it.
Guest:In fact, I don't do that with anything.
Guest:I just like to deal with the screenplay because there are often things that are intentionally left out or that are enhanced.
Guest:I just try to deal with the material I'm working with and not muddy it up because then I am confused where things are coming from.
Marc:Well, how do you approach a movie like this as this seasoned actress who's done 900 movies?
Marc:And, you know, you have to enter this world that does he simplify it for you that you are just this person who is this in this situation?
Marc:Or do you see it as some sort of experiment?
Guest:You can't think of the enormity of it.
Guest:You can't play the context of it.
Guest:So we are literally just playing each moment, which is what you have to do in any film, playing any character.
Guest:So I play a woman who is a mother to this boy whom she has smothered and who has no individual sense of himself because it's so entangled with his parents.
Guest:And he brings this woman home and I am trying to welcome her and trying to present some kind of normalcy, but it's so painful to share my son with her at birth.
Guest:That she just is contorting inside.
Guest:She's crying and smiling and trying.
Guest:And it's just all pain.
Marc:The crying and smiling thing is very... It's fun to do.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Would you call it a... There is sort of a kind of slightly gothic feel to it.
Marc:There's a bit of a horror feel to it.
Guest:Yes, I, well, see, I don't even think of things in terms of genre anymore.
Guest:I know people say genre for horror itself, but I'm talking any genre.
Guest:I don't think about that.
Guest:I always just think about the truth of the moment.
Guest:That's all I have to roll over.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And sometimes I don't have any control over that.
Guest:And that's the best.
Guest:Those are the best moments, actually.
Marc:When you have no control over the truth of the moment.
Guest:Yep.
Marc:But you are in it.
Guest:So exciting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You just have to let go.
Guest:So great.
Guest:It's like a metaphor for life.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did that happen on that movie a lot?
Guest:Because of the shared stream of consciousness, it seems like we're having a conversation, but it's almost like it's all coming from one mind.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:specifically that dinner scene and then moving into the living room, that whole sequence in the farmhouse.
Guest:We all really had to rely on each other in order to kind of feel safe in it because it was so long and we had one rehearsal to kind of figure out a little, a slight structure, not enough to kind of hem anyone in.
Guest:So there's still a freedom to it, but there was at least some structure to follow.
Guest:Because of the rhythm of it and we were listening to each other,
Marc:They were long shots too, right?
Marc:I mean, they were long, tight.
Guest:And it was pages and pages of dialogue.
Marc:I remember that because there was actually times where I was like, is this still the same shot?
Marc:And it was the same shot.
Marc:Like they'd go on for a while.
Guest:I'm so disenchanted by your experience watching this movie.
Marc:No, it was...
Guest:People usually enjoy that.
Marc:I was engaged.
Marc:In the way that I was engaged, I watched... Has he been on your show or not?
Guest:You need to talk to him.
Marc:I talked to him.
Marc:Yeah, but he had to come with somebody else.
Marc:He came with the director of Anomalisa and he wouldn't do it on his own.
Marc:And I got about 45 minutes with him and it was great.
Marc:I had a good time with him, but I'm sure he felt that there was a...
Guest:I have found that I have a friend who's an artist and she did one of those TED Talks and breaking it down and having to explain her work was really upsetting to her.
Guest:And I can understand that and I think that's how Charlie feels.
Guest:Like he does what he does.
Guest:He doesn't want to determine how people respond.
Guest:He doesn't want to give them ideas of what it is so that they have their own reaction and idea about what it is.
Marc:I get that.
Marc:And I understand that he made, you know, he, when he's left to his own devices and he writes and directs the films that you're dealing with something, you know, that is fundamentally an experimental movie, really.
Marc:I mean, he's very meticulous and he's very decisive, but the way things are open to ideas.
Guest:He is very collaborative.
Guest:I had very specific, which he is.
Guest:I mean, he's creating a world.
Guest:Someone has to be clear about it.
Guest:Someone has to be at the helm of the ship.
Guest:But he is very, like, there's one line, I did see it in the trailer, I'm going to paraphrase, that I say, I should know it, where I say, oh, Jake would lose his head if it wasn't screwed onto his own head.
Guest:I fucked that up.
Guest:That was the wrong line.
Guest:And he got so excited by it.
Guest:It was like, leave that in, right?
Guest:So he's really open to those really great accidents.
Yeah.
Marc:I look, I don't want you to misunderstand.
Marc:I'm aggravated because I think he's challenging.
Marc:And that's the best compliment I can give somebody who is who is general, who is creating something.
Marc:You know, like there are certain things like I get mad because I want to understand and he's defying me to understand something that is fairly incomprehensible because of everything he's laid out there.
Marc:You know, there's no way you can put that together and be like, I get it.
Marc:I see what's going on here because it's just no fucking way.
Guest:But but all right, that aside, I'm only sitting here not saying anything because I know I know what the story is.
Guest:But actually, I also can't talk about it because it gives it away.
Guest:But you're saying there's no one to give it away to or we need to give it away because no one understands it.
Marc:No, I mean, but even if you were to tell me this story, I
Marc:I guess the reason I'm trying to get it out of you, because I'm not even sure what the story is.
Marc:I mean, I know those two people went over.
Marc:I know the car ride, and I know the guy in the truck.
Marc:I get all that.
Marc:You know, what the relationship between the guy in the truck and the couple that came over, because, like, there is a time issue, and I know that time is not really that important to him, and that, you know, time is sort of, you know, nebulous and fluid and doesn't necessarily mean years, and I get that.
Marc:But I'm still not sure.
Marc:Like, is this in a head?
Marc:Is it not in a head?
Guest:Am I?
Guest:out to tell you what i know and then if you're not allowed to play it somehow you delete it because i feel like i need to just tell you oh you're saying yes but i don't know if i can trust you no we're not out to sandbag anybody i'll tell you later yeah we can do it after uh and then maybe i'll feel better
Marc:All right.
Marc:So then like these moments that you're talking about where, you know, you play the truth of the moment, but sometimes you don't know.
Marc:Like, for instance, I watched most of Hereditary.
Marc:Now, no, it was just because I was trying to catch up.
Marc:It was, you know, because I want to be I want to be I want to have a full head of you, you know, going into you with the talk.
Marc:that's cool that's nice of you well yeah because i have memories of you you know and but you know i just wanted to see you know you know because you've done so much over the years but for instance that like i guess what resonates with me because i have been in some grief lately is like in that in that grief meeting yeah was that a moment where where where you were playing the truth and the truth that sort of got away from you into something else
Guest:There was a lot of it in that movie, I have to say.
Guest:I think there was just, there really was.
Guest:It's very bizarre, but in reading that script, it was just immediate knowledge of what it needed.
Guest:And although not knowing how I would like climb the ladder, I knew I would get there.
Guest:You know, there's some weird knowledge that I...
Guest:it's just an understanding and I can't help but do it if I tried not to do that I just couldn't be able to stand myself I knew I had to do it because I could feel it so intensely and some and this is going back to kind of Charlie's idea of things like some things like not articulate about but there is such a strong pull and such a strong kind of understanding that um
Guest:I'm not technical.
Guest:There's a certain amount of work that you do.
Guest:You have to learn the lines.
Guest:But really it's just aligning myself as closely as possible with a sense of whatever the character is going through.
Guest:And it did kind of frighten me that in Hereditary I really just understood so much of it.
Marc:Yeah, because it was so dark.
Marc:Was there something at risk for you mentally?
Guest:Oh, no, I don't think so.
Guest:I've never felt like... You always thought you were going to get out?
Guest:Yeah, I never feel like I'm going to go to the other side and never come out.
Guest:I always have a sense of myself, but I'm happy within that kind of...
Guest:Between action and cut, happy to just let go.
Guest:There's no other way to put it.
Guest:I don't know how to say it.
Guest:But don't you find, you act, don't you find there's a real ease and a flow to things when it's written well?
Guest:When it's not written well, you can't remember it.
Guest:It feels all rigid and you have to work hard to make it work.
Guest:The good ones, there's just a flow.
Guest:I can look at it and that's it.
Marc:Yeah, I think that's true.
Marc:You know, like I don't have extensive experience acting and usually I don't do things that aren't something I can do.
Marc:Like I'm yet to be in a project where I'm like, I'm going to really challenge myself with this and be this completely other person.
Marc:Like most of what I've done just requires me to sort of add or take things out of my own personality.
Yeah.
Guest:Don't you think most actors do that?
Marc:I guess so.
Guest:They just hide behind the character, but actually it's everyone.
Guest:It's, it's, it's all, it's all, every character is me.
Guest:They're all everything.
Guest:So, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:See, well, that's, that's sort of the Charlie Kaufman idea.
Marc:We are all everything.
Marc:And it just kind of bleeds into everything else.
Marc:Mind bending.
Marc:But when did you but when did this start?
Marc:But I mean, over the years, it seems that you've gotten like it really seems that your particular talent, although from early on, you know, the emotions were coming through.
Marc:And but like you can really sort of it seems that you've grown in terms of the risks you're willing to take emotionally and character wise and also just, you know, weirdness wise.
Guest:Don't you think existing is weird?
Guest:So why couldn't everything like everything is weird?
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:I know.
Guest:I think potentially my work has I think anyone's work is going to become more interesting the more they know themselves.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because there's more to use because you're.
Marc:dealing with knowledge you're not just freewheeling and just kind of guessing do you have like I just that's interesting because like recently I've been noticing that my thoughts are coming together in a way that I find surprising
Guest:I just want to say, Mark, I met Lynn several times and hung out with her and I'm so sorry.
Guest:It was just so shocking.
Guest:And I am very, very sorry for you and all of her friends.
Guest:I met with her when I was working with Megan on Lucky Them.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:The thing is, I can imagine what you're going through, and you will be surprising yourself, right?
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah, it's been brutal, really.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's a changing thing.
Guest:It'll just keep changing.
Guest:It doesn't go away.
Marc:You've dealt with it?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it sucks, man.
Marc:It is part of life.
Marc:It's that's the weirdest thing about it is that, you know, in framing grief or in framing tragedy, you realize that, you know, there's nothing unusual about it.
Marc:You know, it there's better ways for it to happen.
Marc:There's better timing for it.
Marc:It's probably better when it's expected.
Marc:But, you know, there's no way around it.
Marc:And, you know, it's just but there's nothing unique about it other than my particular the tragedy of her losing her life, but also just, you know, having to deal with that, whatever leads up to that.
Marc:But it is fundamentally a human thing.
Marc:But it's been it's been terrible when I talk to people about it.
Marc:It you know, it brings up the feelings, but you got to go through the feelings.
Guest:Yeah, you can't shun it.
Guest:That's the thing.
Guest:You can't go around it.
Guest:You've got to go through it.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But this is the thing is like I'm telling you is like there are different stages in your life in terms of what you're saying where I think you have these chunks of life where you think you have things together and you're doing a certain type of work.
Marc:And then either something happens that's tangible or it's not.
Marc:And you're a different person because you've come through something.
Guest:I totally agree.
Guest:And actually, the shittiest moments are the most beneficial in terms of growth and understanding, I think.
Marc:Like when you started, like where'd you, you grew up in Sydney?
Guest:I grew up in Sydney.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And are you folks still around?
Guest:Yep.
Marc:Oh, that's great.
Marc:What kind of like, what'd your, what'd your, what'd your parents do?
Guest:My dad, well, they had several different businesses.
Guest:Sometimes my, when I was younger, my dad, he was just saying the other day he had four jobs at once, but it's generally, he's, they're both uneducated and, um,
Guest:they are delightful people and they are the salt of the earth and they've worked so bloody hard to give the three their three kids good lives um my dad predominantly was a truck driver and mom kind of was mom a lot of the time and then had some other you know odd jobs how many siblings two i've got two younger brothers yeah i'm the eldest oh really so how do you sort of pull away and become this person that uh you know decides to do what you do when did that happen
Guest:I think it's – I kind of realized I could sing as a teenager.
Marc:I listened to some of your records.
Guest:You did not.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:I did.
Guest:Okay, so moving on.
Guest:I was 13 in year seven, first year of high school, and I was unaware of how things worked, and they were doing Pippin at school.
Guest:I went to a girls' school.
Guest:There was a hall and a line down the middle and then a boys' school on the other side.
Guest:And they'd cast it and it was ready and it was going into rehearsal and I found out about it and I was so desperate to be a part of it and I missed the boat.
Guest:I went to every performance.
Guest:I loved it.
Guest:I was hooked.
Guest:And then the following year I kind of got in there early and auditioned for Godspell and I had this, like, life-changing experience.
Guest:But I think during that time, my grandmother died.
Guest:And so I think I just I did for a long time use acting as a way of expressing myself because I didn't know how to do that.
Guest:I didn't know how to contact all of those things inside myself.
Guest:So it was almost like a clean way of experiencing things where it wasn't me.
Guest:But I was using myself, so it felt somewhat therapeutic.
Marc:And you were conscious of that?
Guest:I think I only realized much, much later that that's what I had been doing.
Marc:Were you just shut down?
Marc:Was it just like where your family, was you not an emotional bunch in general?
Guest:I mean, emotional, but not great communicators.
Guest:I think we're all getting better as life goes on.
Marc:So in a sense, the performative element helped you communicate all the things that you couldn't say as yourself.
Guest:Yep, absolutely.
Guest:And connect with myself.
Guest:I've literally learned from every character that I've played because it has made me look at different ways of living.
Marc:You're the first person.
Marc:I've asked that to so many actors.
Marc:I've asked them, what do they learn from their characters?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And no one has really given me a definitive answer.
Marc:I think for some reason, a lot of people I think that I've asked don't really make that connection.
Marc:But you did because it seemed to be what compelled you initially was your ability to move through other people's emotions.
Guest:Yep, I think.
Guest:And, you know, I wouldn't have admitted this years ago because I would have been mortified.
Guest:Like, it's embarrassing to admit that.
Guest:I would have felt like that.
Guest:I don't care now, but then.
Guest:I think because I didn't feel like I could do it on my own as me, I felt like if someone were to find out, I would be exposed somehow, right?
Guest:So I was really worried about that.
Guest:But now I couldn't do shit.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's really very weird, but I feel like a different human.
Guest:I know people change through life, but I feel like if I look back on the past, it really does feel like somebody else.
Guest:It's strange.
Guest:Do you have that experience?
Guest:I don't know how many people feel like that.
Marc:That you were somebody else, that it was somebody else's life, or that you're a different person?
Guest:I know it's my life, but I feel so very different to that person.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, I think I had profound problems in an earlier manifestation.
Guest:It takes time to get to know yourself and figure stuff out.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, and I pushed the envelope a little bit, you know.
Marc:I mean, didn't you?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Maybe not as far as you.
Marc:I don't know if that's true.
Marc:Why would you say that?
Guest:What are you thinking?
Guest:You know, one thing I appreciate you is that about you, you are so yourself.
Guest:I am an empath and I –
Guest:can feel when someone's skirting around and you are just you and i really it's when you speak to someone who's comfortable in themselves it's actually makes me feel comfortable you don't have to do the work of what are they trying to do whether they're actually trying to say what are they hiding what are they you know all of that stuff
Guest:It's so exhausting.
Guest:So if I meet someone who's actually taken the responsibility, knows themselves, has gotten to a point where they're just frank about who they are, I love it.
Guest:I am so inspired by that.
Marc:Well, I mean, I get, but I'm only like that when I talk to people like you.
Marc:I'm only like that when I talk to people like, you know, that, like I've decided to talk to people.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I know.
Marc:But it evolved like that.
Marc:You know, like I was a cranky, bitter fuck, you know, when I started, you know, and it was only through I think it's like dueling empaths is what it is, is that like I have.
Marc:to assume, given how able you are to open yourself up in these parts, do you remember when you started acting, when things started happening for you, or in theater, where you started to shake loose and start to realize, oh my god, I'm becoming a human, kind of
Guest:yeah i literally felt like it was a religion i felt so alive it was yeah magnificent when did that when did it start like where'd you go to school when did you start to realize i mean i would be known as a westy i lived in the inner city till i was about five or six and then we moved up to what was more kind of a rural area which is now just it's all a big urban sprawl now but
Guest:The western suburbs of Sydney, I would have been called a Westie.
Guest:We were all frowned upon and kind of thought of as inferior people for quite some time.
Guest:And it's actually something I'm really proud of, being there, growing up there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I was also aware, like, at the age of 16 of, like, looking at girls my age, pushing prams and just thinking, this is not me.
Guest:I've got to go here.
Guest:So I did.
Guest:I'm not an ambitious person.
Guest:I am open to the flow of life.
Guest:But there was something in me at that age that was just so brave.
Guest:I can't believe it.
Guest:If I had to start acting now, I'd get nowhere.
Guest:But I just had no fear.
Guest:It was amazing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think Muriel's wedding was really, that really did feel like a religious experience.
Guest:But even doing that musical when I was like 14, 14 years old, then I did, from that experience at school, one of the music teachers said, they're doing this big kind of bicentennial musical.
Guest:Bicentennial meaning Australia had been discovered 200 years ago, i.e.
Guest:invaded.
Guest:And so there was a big celebration.
Guest:And they were putting together a musical and kids from all over New South Wales, which is the state I live in and Sydney is the capital.
Guest:So they were auditioning kids.
Guest:And I got the lead, like it was so bizarre.
Guest:And from that experience, I would go home every night after, I would go to rehearsal, maybe it was a couple of times a week after school.
Guest:My parents were so supportive.
Guest:And I would catch the training on the weekends.
Guest:I was so in love with this whole experience because I felt alive.
Guest:And I would go home at night and I would literally, I can't believe I would do this, start at the beginning of the show and run through the entire thing.
Guest:Everybody else's lines, every move, every note, everything.
Guest:I would do the entire show in my head.
Guest:How crazy is that?
Marc:Some people do that, though.
Marc:Like, you know, the whole show.
Guest:Yeah, but I mean, I had no idea what I was doing.
Guest:I was just doing it.
Guest:Like, it wasn't some technique or no one had said, you know, try doing this or, you know, highlight the other person's minds.
Guest:I was just, like, being 14.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But, but it's a weird, but like, I've known people that like, you know, you talk to somebody like Rockwell and he's like, I read the script a hundred times all the way through.
Marc:I'm like, really?
Marc:A hundred?
Guest:He's lying to you.
Guest:But that is bullshit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, he's I'm so happy for him.
Guest:Like, good on Sam, man.
Guest:He is a bloody working actor.
Guest:He just did it.
Guest:He is.
Guest:He did.
Guest:Just getting great jobs and just continuously brilliant.
Guest:I just am so happy for that guy.
Guest:He's such a good person.
Guest:Great.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I like to hear when people are happy for other people.
Marc:That you're both in a position to be happy for each other is nice.
Guest:When you can celebrate, fucking celebrate.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Yeah, for sure.
Marc:But it takes a certain amount of personal being grounded to be happy for other people.
Marc:It took me a long time to be that way.
Marc:And I still can't do it for everybody.
Guest:That's funny.
Guest:Well, maybe neither can I. No, generally I...
Guest:pretty open to all we're all connected man rule one it's true truer than ever so okay so from from from the musical but you did you studied you went to didn't you go to the the school that everyone goes to national institute of dramatic you touched your nose i touched my nose it's a real thing isn't it it's like a yeah no i don't we're good
Guest:I went for, it's a three-year course.
Guest:I had done one film before I went.
Guest:Then at the beginning of the second year, I was offered a job because this wonderful theatre director here, actually he also makes films as well, but at that point he'd only done film with a guy called Neil Armfield.
Guest:He's a very great friend and an interesting guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But at that point I was a child and had no idea and he was directing Uncle Vanya at the Sydney Theatre Company, which was performed at the Opera House over there.
Guest:And so I decided to leave NIDA and go with whatever was being presented to me.
Marc:I think I talked to somebody else who did that from Australia.
Marc:Did Cate Blanchett go there?
Guest:She went to NIDA, but she did the whole course.
Marc:And did Sarah Snook go there?
Marc:I wonder.
Guest:Sarah went.
Guest:I met Sarah at the Toronto Film Festival several years ago.
Guest:I think we were on the same flight and I was with my agent and she said, oh, that's, you know, that's a young actress from Australia, Sarah Snook.
Guest:And she was sitting down, you know, you can plug your phone in, sitting on the floor, desperately trying to get a cell phone to work and trying to organise to get into the city.
Guest:I was like, just get in my car.
Guest:So I had a car ride with her.
Guest:We were both probably jet lagged.
Guest:But my God, she's so good in succession.
Guest:Everyone is so good in succession.
Guest:I bloody love that show.
Guest:It's crazy.
Marc:It's a crazy show.
Guest:So wonderful.
Marc:I just interviewed Kieran.
Marc:He's a character.
Guest:Yeah, I can imagine he is because he is.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:So good.
Marc:So let's go.
Marc:So then, like, I'm curious about these turning points and sort of like, you know, how you started to, you know, at least connect with yourself through these characters, because you say you're confident at the beginning.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:going into it that you didn't understand that, that you were just a showman, I guess, or a show woman that you just loved it.
Marc:It was, you, you found the part of you.
Marc:That's where you lived was up there.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Funny.
Marc:But then at some point did, did the confidence start to collapse and the other thing take over?
Marc:Did you all, did you just ride that all the way through school and uncle Vanya right into Muriel's wedding where you just fucking all I'm, I'm, I'm great.
Guest:No, there's no, I'm great.
Guest:I mean, I'm always like,
Marc:um nervous and feel inadequate but oh good apparently my balls were bigger and took over like i just i don't know where this bravery came from right right right right so like so yeah you were compelled you were there was no other way of life for you and the fear was just you know it became just part of the way of life you chose but it wasn't going to take you down oh
Guest:That's hilarious.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:That sounds perhaps appropriate.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:As a young woman, especially Australian, and then all of a sudden I was working away a lot in other places.
Guest:So I always felt like a bit of an outsider.
Guest:But I think that's a good thing.
Guest:It kind of keeps you humble.
Guest:I never felt confident in what I was doing.
Guest:So I always worked just really hard.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But as an outsider, you're also special.
Marc:You know, like, oh, here's the Australian.
Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:There's so many of us now, it's embarrassing.
Marc:But you're all pretty good, so it's good.
Marc:I'm yet to see a shitty Australian.
Marc:How about that other guy, that fucking guy?
Marc:I didn't realize he was Australian until recently, that Mendelssohn fella.
Guest:Oh, Ben.
Marc:Ben.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:What fucking actor that guy is.
Guest:My first film was with Ben.
Guest:I was 17.
Marc:Really?
Marc:How old was he?
Guest:He's only a few years older than me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Which movie was that?
Marc:Spotswood?
Guest:Yeah, that's the one.
Guest:Look at you with your screen right there, referencing left and right.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Yeah, really impressive.
Marc:I just read a word.
Guest:It was very, very imaginatively retitled The Efficiency Expert in America.
Guest:Who wants to see The Efficiency Expert?
Marc:I don't know, about the same amount of people that want to see Spotswood?
Guest:Spotswood at least has a sense of humor.
Marc:Well, yeah, I mean, I don't know what it means, but you'd kind of go like, what is that?
Marc:So you got to work with Anthony Hopkins on your first movie?
Guest:Yeah, and then I played his assistant again several years later, and we were just going, can you believe this?
Guest:In Hitchcock, played Hitchcock.
Marc:Oh, that's right.
Marc:Was he sober on Spotswood?
Guest:I was too young to notice.
Marc:Wow, because I know he's been sober a long time, but I wonder.
Marc:So Muriel's wedding was huge, and that was pretty quick.
Marc:That happened pretty quick.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yep.
Guest:I turned 21 during the shoot, and then I spent a year traveling around doing press for it, and everything just changed.
Guest:Yep, it was pretty fast.
Marc:And did you adjust to that well, or did you lose your mind?
Yeah.
Guest:A bit of both.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Probably a bit of both.
Guest:It was really fun.
Guest:So then you feel guilty for feeling weird about it, right?
Guest:Because you are just living the dream and meeting amazing people and travelling and having a great time.
Guest:But it was also, you know, it was a lot.
Yeah.
Marc:It's interesting because all these movies that you did early on, like when I was reading about you, it's you.
Marc:You are fortunate in that you 98 percent of the time, you know, your performance will stand out despite whatever the fucking movie is.
Marc:So.
Marc:Like, it's a real gift you have that, like, even it seems that even when the movie is not great, they're like, but Toni Collette was looking amazing.
Marc:So, like, it's great.
Marc:And, you know, and also, like, you were fortunate in that some of the movies you were in made a lot of money.
Guest:Yeah, the two don't usually go together, like great filming experience and then actually do well, right?
Marc:Well, yeah, but by the time you get to The Sixth Sense, you're already kind of a big movie star.
Guest:No, I was not.
Marc:In my mind, you were.
Guest:Don't take that away from me.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Okay, I'll run with your theory.
Guest:It's so much more flattering.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:By the time Sixth Sense, I mean, why did they, you know, I'll tell you what happened.
Guest:I had actually auditioned for a Wes Anderson film.
Marc:Which one?
Guest:Rushmore.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:I love that movie.
Guest:I love all of his movies.
Guest:I love Wes.
Guest:And his producer at the time, Barry Mendel, who is a good friend of mine, was also working with Night on The Sixth Sense.
Guest:So when I didn't get the part on Rushmore, there was an issue about that because I had shaved my head.
Guest:I had turned 25.
Guest:I was in Mexico.
Guest:There was a lot of tequila involved and I saw...
Guest:A pudgy barber's hand trusted it and said, shave my head.
Guest:And then I did not get that job, Rushmore.
Guest:But the same producer was doing The Sixth Sense, so he got me in to read for that with Knight and Bruce Willis was there.
Guest:But at the same time, I was also brought in to do – Velvet Goldmine had been at the Cannes Film Festival and Martin Scorsese was the head of the jury that year.
Guest:So he came – he asked me to come in on Bringing Out the Dead, a film that he was making.
Guest:Yeah, I like that movie.
Guest:So I was really focused on working with Marty because Night was new and I didn't know him and Marty is a known figure and a genius and who wouldn't want to work with him?
Yeah.
Guest:So at the same time, these jobs were kind of hanging around and I didn't even, you know, I didn't even read The Sixth Sense initially.
Guest:I was so focused on working with Marty, the idea of working with Marty.
Guest:And then one night I was jet lagged.
Guest:I arrived in New York and I thought I'd better read this script or I'm going to get in trouble.
Guest:And then it absolutely floored me.
Guest:It was the most incredible thing.
Guest:And I got a call.
Guest:I'd had both meetings.
Guest:I got a call.
Guest:My agent said, you got the offer on.
Guest:I didn't even hear him.
Guest:I screamed.
Guest:I thought it was for the Martin Scorsese film, but it was for The Sixth Sense.
Yeah.
Marc:It was like that was the right one to get because that's like the one Scorsese film that like no one has seen.
Guest:I too haven't seen it, but I have a personal reason not to.
Guest:What is that?
Guest:Well, I didn't have the job.
Guest:That's it?
Guest:No, I felt really – well, I was probably busy, but yes, I just felt –
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:It's an odd movie.
Marc:I don't know what happened to that movie.
Marc:I remember liking it, but it's not memorable.
Marc:I don't think it's... Let's talk about this shaving your head business.
Marc:That seems like a cry for help.
Marc:What the fuck was going on?
Marc:The Velvet Goldmine?
Marc:Were you spiraling?
Guest:It was so much fun.
Guest:Velvet Goldmine, my God.
Guest:Todd Haynes is a genius.
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:I love him.
Marc:I talk to him.
Guest:Oh, he just and the loveliest person.
Marc:And I think he's making a documentary about I just read about it.
Marc:He's just finished a documentary on something that they actually.
Guest:I can't remember the subject matter either, but I did hear that he was doing that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So like, okay, so working with him, was that like, were you living?
Guest:It just felt like they were all the cool kids at the back of the bus and there's no way I'm going to get this job.
Guest:That's how I felt, right?
Marc:With the Velvet Goldmine.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then he really, he gave me that part.
Guest:And it wasn't like...
Guest:uh it was not the obvious choice let's put it that way so i will forever be thankful for him giving me that job because i just bloody loved it it was so great we all had the time of our lives i mean it's glam rock sex drugs roll it was so much fun yeah yeah anyway i've shaved my head five times to be honest i shaved my head once when i was i was too young to deal with it
Guest:What did it freak you out afterwards?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:How young?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I was in New York, and I was probably, I don't know.
Marc:I was in my 20s, but I just decided that's the thing to do.
Marc:I'll just get one of those razor cuts.
Marc:And I really had a hard time figuring out.
Marc:It may be very self-conscious.
Marc:It didn't free me.
Marc:It did the opposite.
Guest:I'm sorry.
Marc:It's all right.
Marc:I mean, you know, I was kind of lost, but you get comments on your head shape.
Guest:Like you don't know what's under there.
Marc:I just was sort of like, who am I?
Marc:What did I do?
Marc:What, you know, what am I made of now?
Guest:I'm a blank canvas.
Guest:Where do I go from here?
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Terrible feeling.
Marc:Have you had that feeling before?
Guest:I love that feeling.
Marc:You do?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:You do?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Anything can happen from there.
Marc:I know.
Marc:But how, why do you assume it's going to be good?
Guest:Well, why wouldn't you?
Marc:because that's not the way my brain works.
Guest:You could go either way, but things keep changing even if it's bad.
Marc:You must be good on hallucinogenic drugs.
Marc:For me, it's just a panic.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:It's like who knows what's going to happen.
Guest:I can't even take gas at the dentist.
Guest:I can't.
Guest:No.
Guest:It all scares me.
Guest:I need to just stay in myself.
Guest:I had to stop meditating because that freaked me out.
Guest:I got so into I've disappeared, I've merged with everything that I had to stop for several years.
Wow.
Marc:Well, how is the blank slate thing so compelling to you if you can't meditate or take gas at the dentist?
Guest:Well, I can meditate now.
Guest:I went through a period where I couldn't because it scared me because I disappeared.
Guest:I think I can allow myself to disappear to a certain extent immediately.
Guest:and to be consumed at work but like totally disappearing hideous anyway i don't like the idea of doing any drugs i don't i just i mean i know there are benefits to doing those psychedelics and it can be really incredible for people no one you never had depression or anxiety or lost your mind yes part of being alive who doesn't have that dumb people
Guest:Look, here you've got to feel it all.
Guest:There's no way around it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Otherwise you're missing out on life.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I, you know, I've, I, I have been sort of paralyzed by a certain amount of anxiety that turns into paralysis that, you know, then turns into, you know, not being able to, to, you know, like I get, I get consumed with dread at times and that's, you know, that one.
Guest:Yes, absolutely.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:That's the worst.
Guest:Yes, it's hideous.
Guest:But it ends, doesn't it?
Guest:It's not constant.
Marc:That's what somebody said to me.
Marc:Someone said a real nice thing to me, actually.
Marc:Jon Hamm, he was just checking in on me about Lynn.
Marc:This was just a few days ago.
Marc:And I said, well, look, he asked me how I was doing.
Marc:I said, well, I'm not broke and I'm not sick.
Marc:I'm just sad.
Marc:And he said, well, that goes away.
Yeah.
Marc:Sad doesn't stay around forever.
Guest:Are you close to him?
Guest:That's so nice of him.
Marc:I don't know if we're close, but, you know, he checks in.
Marc:Sometimes, you know, people have been very nice about, you know, checking in with certain people.
Marc:I like him, but, like, there's very few people that I hang out with.
Marc:Like, you know who I'm close to now who's a new friend is Tracy Letts, who you work with.
Guest:Oh, God, I love that man.
Guest:He played my husband in the Realistic Joneses on Broadway, the Willie No play.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He is, I mean, there's a similarity with you.
Guest:It's what I was talking about earlier.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I remember we sat down at lunch, he and Michael C. Hall and I, and he goes, well, listen, folks, we're going to be spending a lot of time together, so let's just cut the bullshit.
Guest:And this is my story.
Guest:What's going on with you?
Guest:It was fucking incredible.
Guest:I love him so much.
Guest:I really, really, really admire him.
Guest:He is an incredible person.
Guest:And I know that he's done a lot of work on himself and he's just the coolest.
Guest:What a rock star.
Marc:I get him laughing pretty good.
Guest:Oh, isn't he great when he gets laughing?
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:He's such a great giggler when he really goes.
Marc:And you were also another movie that I love that nobody talks about changing lanes.
Marc:I love that movie.
Marc:I, you know, I love that movie.
Marc:I showed, you know, I've showed it to people that don't love it as much as me, even with my passion for it.
Marc:They don't like it as much as I like it.
Guest:Your passion isn't infectious enough to get people through it.
Marc:I'm a sober guy.
Marc:So it's, it's really a, it's like a, it's an AA movie.
Marc:I mean, it is an AA movie.
Guest:So like, you know, if you're again, it's been a really long time.
Marc:How do you feel about like, it seems to me that, you know, there, there's a couple of people and I'm going to compare you to an American actress.
Marc:Who's amazing as well.
Marc:Alison Janney.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:I love that woman.
Guest:She's in the movie with Sam too.
Guest:In the way, way back.
Guest:That's how I met her.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:She plays the saucy neighbor, right?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:The saucy pickled neighbor.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You guys should do a two.
Marc:I'm with you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You and Allison Janney.
Marc:Because it just seems to me that as both of you get older, you get not only better, but your ability to sort of take these emotional chances without any sort of second guessing is profound.
Guest:I think if you become too calculated, it's just trite.
Guest:You've got to just listen to your gut.
Guest:Like that inner knowing is the only thing I rely on.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:Anything else starts to come into it, I realise, oh, I'm suddenly a fence sitter and I've screwed myself up in my head.
Guest:It's all gut.
Marc:How do you feel about this sort of like, it seems to me that you're kind of being used or allowing yourself to be used or taking these roles and sort of, I don't want to use a genre name, but they're kind of horror movies.
Guest:It's, I mean, I've done, actually, I don't know how many films I've done.
Guest:I have no idea now, but I've only done a handful of horror movies, to be honest.
Marc:Well, I guess that's true, but I guess it's just sort of the parts and like... Well, just something to do, right?
Guest:So they are...
Guest:supremely challenging bringing some kind of reality to that world is difficult and I want a challenge otherwise I'm bored right so that's how you see it bring something real to that world yeah I mean I don't even see hereditary to me is a family drama it gets yeah
Guest:Ricky?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was, at the end of that was, I mean, I just couldn't help but laugh because it just seemed totally removed from the rest of the film.
Guest:And I think Ari Aster, the writer-director, was very clever because he was a first-time feature filmmaker and...
Guest:He wanted to do something splashy, but in order to get noticed and, you know, open some more doors for yourself, I guess that genre does things.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Really.
Guest:It's an intense family drama.
Marc:Oh, for sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And Gabriel Byrne.
Marc:So like, he's such a great actor too, huh?
Guest:I can't believe I got to work with him.
Marc:Was it great?
Guest:Right away.
Guest:You guys.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:What a great person.
Guest:Great.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:So what about stage?
Marc:Do you want to do more of that?
Guest:No, I want to direct now.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I've been offered some things on Broadway, but I live in Australia.
Guest:I just can't keep doing it.
Guest:I have to, you know.
Marc:You want to direct film?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:That's what I want to do.
Marc:Are you working on that?
Marc:Do you got some things lined up?
Guest:I've got three things lined up.
Guest:I better do a good job.
Guest:I've got three of them lined up.
Guest:So that's exciting.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:It's an adaptation of a book by Graham Simpson called the best of Adam sharp.
Guest:And the film's going to be called the best of, which we're hoping, I mean, who knows what's going to happen in the world, but hoping to shoot next year.
Marc:Do you have your DP?
Guest:I do.
Marc:Do you know him from other movies?
Guest:I did a film called Dream Horse last year in Wales, which was one of the best experiences.
Guest:Have you been to Wales?
Guest:No.
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:It was never on my hit list.
Guest:I'm telling you, the people are beautiful.
Guest:It is stunning.
Guest:The place is just unexpectedly beautiful.
Guest:I will continue to go back there now.
Guest:But I did this film.
Guest:It's based on a true story.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:about a woman who kind of feels a bit lost.
Guest:Her kids are grown up.
Guest:Her relationship's a bit boring.
Guest:And she'd had this history of like training, you know, like having show pigeons and things like that when she was younger with her dad, something she shared with her dad.
Guest:And she just decides she's totally broke and she just decides that she's going to raise...
Guest:a racehorse she's going to breed a racehorse and this racehorse goes on to be like be the biggest winner that Wales has ever known it comes from this tiny little community where she gets everyone in the village to put in and it totally changes the community it's the most beautiful story so anyway Eric Wilson who shot that is also going to he I it's the first time I would be in a room on set I thought I'll go and look at the monitor
Guest:It just looked, I couldn't believe what he had done, literally just with the lighting.
Guest:It was just so breathtaking.
Guest:So anyway, he's going to be shooting the film.
Marc:Good choice.
Marc:Sounds like a good choice.
Guest:Norwegian.
Marc:Norwegian.
Marc:Of course he's great.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Because Norway is like a magic land.
Guest:That's right.
Yeah.
Marc:So, all right.
Marc:Well, I want to tell you this before we go.
Marc:I love you.
Marc:I'm a huge fan.
Marc:I like your work.
Marc:I like the movie.
Marc:I was just being argumentative because it challenged me.
Marc:And, you know, I demand answers.
Marc:And, you know, I...
Marc:Right.
Marc:But but I shouldn't because there's no one's going to give me answers.
Marc:Charlie's not going to give me answers.
Marc:You're not going to give me answers.
Marc:But I eventually.
Marc:OK, well, I mean, I certainly will.
Marc:You know, I will recommend the film.
Marc:You were great in it.
Marc:And it's a it's a it's a it's a complex, amazing movie.
Marc:There's no way around it.
Marc:And it was great talking to you.
Marc:So what I'm going to do now is I'm going to sign off kind of.
Marc:I'm going to say it's great talking to you because I know you've got other things to do.
Marc:And you're going to say thank you, Mark.
Marc:This is really fun.
Marc:I've been a fan for a long time.
Marc:I used to listen to you in the car.
Marc:And then you're going to tell me what the fuck that movie was about.
Guest:Mark Maron, it is my pleasure.
Guest:Do you know what?
Guest:I listen to your show so often.
Guest:I'm like, why doesn't he ever ask me to do it?
Guest:Why hasn't anyone asked me to do it?
Guest:So, you know, when I was at my kids' soccer match on the weekend and I was clicking through an email about what I had to do today and there was your name, my husband turned to me because my breathing changed.
Guest:I was so like, oh, God.
Guest:I'm going to be doing what the fuck with Marc Maron.
Guest:I got really nervous.
Guest:And it was days before I was going to speak to you.
Guest:Do you feel okay about it?
Guest:Yes, because ultimately I knew that you were going to be you because you are you.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it comes through in everything that you do and there's nothing to be scared of because you're lovely.
Guest:Oh, thank you.
Guest:And it's been a pleasure.
Guest:And I'm very, very happy to meet you.
Marc:That's good to meet you too.
Marc:Thank you for doing it.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Now, what the fuck was that movie about?
Oh,
Marc:Okay, there you go.
Marc:I put the time in, see it, maybe space it over two viewings.
Marc:I'm thinking of ending things is now streaming on Netflix.
Marc:Enjoy.
Marc:Try to keep it together.
Marc:I will play now a bit.
guitar solo
Marc:boomer lives so does monkey la fonda