Episode 113 - Ray Romano and Mike Royce

00:00:31Marc:I'm in the car driving down the 110 here in Los Angeles, California to the 101 freeway to the Melrose exit to the Paramount lot to interview Ray Romano and Mike Royce, both comedians.

00:00:46Marc:Obviously, you know, Ray, you may not know Mike.

00:00:49Marc:Mike was almost a house emcee at the Comedy Cellar.

00:00:53Marc:Very funny guy.

00:00:55Marc:Great crowd work.

00:00:56Marc:Haven't talked to him in a while.

00:00:57Marc:One of the nicest guys in stand-up comedy.

00:01:00Marc:Ray Romano.

00:01:01Marc:One of the nicest guys in stand-up comedy.

00:01:04Marc:I knew him when he was just a stand-up.

00:01:06Marc:I remember him giving me a ride home.

00:01:08Marc:Once I always felt that he was sort of frightened of me or intimidated by me.

00:01:14Marc:I don't know.

00:01:16Marc:But I'll tell you one thing about Ray Romano.

00:01:18Marc:It's a rare thing in my business in stand up that no one's really got anything bad to say about him.

00:01:25Marc:He's always been a decent guy, loyal to his friends, funny, knew his voice and did what he did.

00:01:31Marc:No one has anything bad to say about him.

00:01:33Marc:I know some of you may condescend the show.

00:01:35Marc:Everybody loves Raymond.

00:01:36Marc:And once somebody becomes a big success, you know, of course, you can have some haters.

00:01:41Marc:But as a person, as a stand up, I've never known anybody to say anything bad about him.

00:01:45Marc:I haven't seen him in a long time.

00:01:47Marc:I ran into him once at a sushi restaurant.

00:01:50Marc:in the middle of the Ray or towards the end of Everybody Loves Raymond.

00:01:55Marc:And of course, I'm sure I looked at him differently because he was now had the biggest sitcom on television.

00:02:00Marc:And you know me.

00:02:01Marc:I don't know if there was resentment, but I also didn't know how well I really knew him.

00:02:06Marc:And he was very nice.

00:02:07Marc:So we're going to go over there.

00:02:08Marc:I'm going to talk to them a little bit about stand-up, I hope, and a bit about the new show, Men of a Certain Age, which I find to be pretty good.

00:02:16Marc:I watched the entire first season.

00:02:19Marc:And this isn't a plug fest, but it's rare that a show sort of captures the disillusionment and struggles of somebody in their 40s in a fairly honest way.

00:02:29Marc:And if any of you have watched it, you know that Ray...

00:02:31Marc:is actually portraying a compulsive gambler.

00:02:34Marc:That Ray Romano may indeed have a dark side.

00:02:37Marc:I'm not sure.

00:02:39Marc:But what's really important right now is that I don't get into a car accident because I'm talking into a microphone.

00:02:45Marc:Holy fuck.

00:02:47Marc:It's hot in the car, too.

00:02:49Marc:Look, this is not important.

00:02:50Marc:The interesting thing is the Paramount lot is a pretty spectacular place.

00:02:55Marc:It's been there forever.

00:02:57Marc:It's got the big, beautiful gates.

00:02:59Marc:I think they actually used it in Sunset Boulevard and several other movies that I don't know offhand, but it's one of the few old-school studio lots.

00:03:10Marc:They don't really exist that much anymore, and it's pretty exciting to go on there.

00:03:15Marc:I don't know.

00:03:15Marc:I think they're going to be on the set or in their offices.

00:03:18Marc:I know they're shooting.

00:03:19Marc:I don't think we've done that in a while since I interviewed Zach Galifianakis in the trailer.

00:03:27Marc:But I don't know.

00:03:29Marc:Maybe Scott Bakula.

00:03:31Marc:We'll drop by.

00:03:31Marc:I'm going to open my window.

00:03:34Marc:Maybe Scott Bakke will drop by, get him on the mics, or Andre Brogger.

00:03:38Marc:Is that how you pronounce it?

00:03:39Marc:Brogger?

00:03:39Marc:Is it Brogger?

00:03:40Marc:I think it's Brogger.

00:03:41Marc:He's fucking genius in this show.

00:03:43Marc:I think he was nominated for Emmy.

00:03:45Marc:God forbid I do my fucking research.

00:03:47Marc:Did he win an Emmy?

00:03:48Yeah.

00:03:49Marc:Oh, man.

00:03:50Marc:I should know that.

00:03:51Marc:I think it was nominated.

00:03:52Marc:They'll correct me, right?

00:03:53Marc:I'm only human.

00:03:54Marc:I can't be expected to do research on my guests other than having known them when we all did comedy fucking 15 years ago.

00:04:03Marc:Look, you know what?

00:04:04Marc:Let's just check back at the gate.

00:04:10Marc:So am I going... The main gate.

00:04:14Marc:The visitor's gate.

00:04:14Marc:The visitor's gate?

00:04:16Guest:You're going to the Wilder...

00:04:18Guest:that's a map of the studio right here yeah you're going to make a u-turn yeah you're going to make a right 100 100 yards down you're going to come in the main gate oh this is in the main gate okay no that's what i was asking you okay you're going to park in our visitors parking lot right you need to go to wilder building so wilder building right so you're going to cut across all the way to your dead end it's the last building on your left hand side

00:04:40Marc:So I walk from the lot?

00:04:42Marc:Yes, sir.

00:04:42Marc:Okay, thanks.

00:04:43Guest:You turn 100 yards down.

00:04:45Marc:Oh, so I don't need to get a pass from you?

00:04:47Guest:Well, you got to come in.

00:04:48Guest:You got to show that to the officer.

00:04:50Guest:Got it.

00:04:50Guest:With your driver's license.

00:04:51Guest:Got it.

00:04:52Marc:Thank you.

00:04:58Marc:It wasn't even the main gate.

00:05:00Marc:Oh, well.

00:05:04Marc:I guess if I had a job on the Paramount lot, I would know that.

00:05:10Marc:100 yards down.

00:05:11Marc:Oh, there's the Rowley Studios right across the street, which is where they did Mr. Show, if you're paying attention at home.

00:05:17Marc:I think so.

00:05:18Marc:I think that's where they did it.

00:05:20Marc:I'm a shitty tour guide.

00:05:22Marc:Alright, so now we're going to the main gate.

00:05:27Marc:Oh, shit.

00:05:27Marc:Yeah.

00:05:29Marc:This is definitely the main gate.

00:05:32Marc:But I should be all set, right?

00:05:36Marc:Alright.

00:05:38Marc:My stomach hurts.

00:05:40Marc:Guest permit.

00:05:41Marc:I'm a guest.

00:05:44Marc:So, um, that guy was pretty nice.

00:05:46Marc:There's a little color printout of the Paramount lot.

00:05:51Marc:Paramount Pictures.

00:05:52Marc:Oh, my.

00:05:54Marc:They printed out my pass, and it looks like a giant old-style movie ticket.

00:06:00Marc:And it says, Paramount Pictures welcomes Marc Maron.

00:06:03Marc:Please proceed to the Wilder 101.

00:06:04Marc:Oh, they are underneath a Viacom company.

00:06:07Marc:That kind of undercuts the movie romance of the whole thing.

00:06:12Marc:Got a motorcycle in front of me.

00:06:13Marc:Hold on.

00:06:15Marc:Hey, buddy.

00:06:17Marc:Do you need my ID?

00:06:19Guest:Do you know where to go?

00:06:20Marc:I kind of do.

00:06:21Marc:He sort of pointed it out.

00:06:22Guest:Back here, the Wilder building.

00:06:23Guest:That's where you park.

00:06:25Marc:I park right in there?

00:06:26Marc:Take a walk.

00:06:27Guest:Thanks a lot.

00:06:28Marc:Take a walk.

00:06:31Marc:All right.

00:06:32Marc:On the maps, do you ever notice that on maps, it always looks a lot...

00:06:36Marc:bigger see i was here when i was very young because a friend of mine had a mother worked here and uh there's this huge wall that's just a sky it's painted like a sky and they use it as a movie set i don't know if they use it anymore oh yeah they got valet parking here they'll get you at every turn won't they listen to me when did i turn into an old jew do i have to valet can i self-park

00:07:02Guest:Yes, there's a few spaces on the back over there.

00:07:04Guest:So what, go around that way?

00:07:05Guest:Yeah, go straight to your left.

00:07:07Marc:Thank you, sir.

00:07:08Guest:You're welcome.

00:07:11Guest:Am I driving?

00:07:12Guest:Can I go?

00:07:13Guest:There's a guy with no shirt on.

00:07:15Marc:Why is he... What is going on here?

00:07:18Marc:You know, studios are always interesting.

00:07:22Marc:Yeah, but there's this huge blank screen.

00:07:25Marc:Like, it's a huge screen.

00:07:26Marc:It's just the sky that I assume they use for motion pictures at times.

00:07:31Marc:I know I'm going to get lost in this fucking lot.

00:07:33Marc:I always get lost at this fucking lot.

00:07:34Marc:I've been here a few times, a few auditions back in the day when I had an audition.

00:07:41Marc:I know I just went on one, but I used to have an agent come walk around here.

00:07:45Marc:But it's like all the bungalows look the same.

00:07:47Marc:The way it's painted is exactly like the old days, as I imagine it.

00:07:52Marc:And every building, there are certain stretches of building that are clearly just used as sets.

00:07:59Marc:Like, you know, the opening of television shows, you kind of recognize them from the back.

00:08:03Marc:Like the back of this series of buildings is obviously a set.

00:08:06Marc:I don't know what that set would be.

00:08:09Marc:But again, not a great guide.

00:08:12Marc:And I'm a half hour early.

00:08:13Marc:So what the fuck do I do now?

00:08:21Marc:Yeah, this is one of those situations where I really wish I knew more about where I was.

00:08:25Marc:So I just got out of the car.

00:08:26Marc:I'm in the Paramount lot.

00:08:28Marc:I see stage 14.

00:08:30Marc:I see crates.

00:08:32Marc:I hear that sound.

00:08:35Marc:In any other situation, that would just be like, oh, someone's mowing their lawn or somebody's building something.

00:08:44Marc:But here on the Paramount lot, it means that...

00:08:48Marc:entertainment is being made and created.

00:08:52Marc:Oh, wait.

00:08:53Marc:It's just a guy with a weed whacker actually trimming the landscaping.

00:08:59Marc:Alright, so not always.

00:09:01Guest:Maybe I'm romanticizing a little bit.

00:09:04Guest:So that happens.

00:09:07Guest:It's show business.

00:09:09Guest:Hey, is that George Lopez?

00:09:10Guest:No.

00:09:12Guest:It's the guy.

00:09:13Marc:You know, I'm going to make up a history for Paramount.

00:09:18Marc:Back in the day when they had the studio system, Paramount had several big names like, and everybody at that time knew them.

00:09:28Guest:I believe I just engaged an old Chevy Chase device to get a laugh out of you, if it did indeed do that.

00:09:37Guest:I'm going to end up using up all my fucking time with this bullshit.

00:09:40Guest:Alright, where the fuck is this place?

00:09:42Guest:The Wilder building.

00:09:44Guest:Should be right up here.

00:09:46Guest:Can I just go in with my little pass?

00:09:49Guest:These pants are too tight now.

00:09:51God.

00:09:52Guest:Damn it.

00:09:55Guest:Talent entrance.

00:09:57Guest:For what?

00:09:59Guest:Big time rush.

00:10:00Guest:That's a casting.

00:10:04Guest:I wonder if I would have been sent out on that.

00:10:05Guest:I don't even know what that show is.

00:10:07Guest:That doesn't matter.

00:10:08Guest:Billy Wilder.

00:10:08Guest:Oh, it's a Billy Wilder building.

00:10:11Guest:I should have known that.

00:10:12Guest:Men of a Certain Age production office left.

00:10:16Guest:That's us.

00:10:17Guest:Production office.

00:10:19Guest:Hi.

00:10:19Guest:How are you?

00:10:20Guest:Yeah, I'm Mark Maron.

00:10:21Guest:I'm supposed to meet Mike and Ray.

00:10:23Guest:Oh, that would be down the hall there.

00:10:25Guest:Let me show you down the hall.

00:10:26Guest:I'm a little early, but I need to set up some equipment.

00:10:29Guest:I don't have to look at this map anymore.

00:10:31Guest:That's okay.

00:10:32Guest:I'm this way.

00:10:33Guest:All right.

00:10:33Guest:What do you got, the whole building?

00:10:36Guest:Um, close to the first floor, at least.

00:10:37Guest:That's pretty good.

00:10:40Marc:one of the old buildings it's no problem I need to set up some stuff how you doing man hi fellas I'm alright in here okay this is good well there's plenty of snacks oh you got twizzlers that's good

00:11:04Guest:Twizzlers and Tabasco and a bag of Forks.

00:11:14Marc:Ray Romano.

00:11:15Guest:Oh, boy.

00:11:15Marc:It's a guy from television.

00:11:17Guest:Wait, I got more hair than you?

00:11:19Marc:I don't know how that happened.

00:11:21Guest:How are you, man?

00:11:22Guest:I got my glasses to look smart, too.

00:11:23Guest:Nice to see you.

00:11:24Guest:I'm good.

00:11:26Marc:I'm great.

00:11:28Marc:You can sit over here.

00:11:29Marc:Do I have to hold this?

00:11:31Marc:Just hold it up as close as possible.

00:11:33Marc:You remember those, right?

00:11:34Marc:Yeah, sure, sure, sure.

00:11:35Guest:I'm used to the lavaliers now.

00:11:38Guest:Not anymore.

00:11:39Guest:We're going old school, right?

00:11:40Guest:This is like when you do a thing at the Writers Guild and you realize how little money the Writers Guild has.

00:11:45Marc:Yeah.

00:11:45Marc:It's just the way I do it because I figure we all know how to hold these.

00:11:50Guest:Yeah.

00:11:51Guest:It brings us back to our roots.

00:11:52Marc:That's right.

00:11:53Marc:I have to be honest with you guys.

00:11:55Marc:My guests are Mike Royce and Ray Romano.

00:11:57Marc:I like the show.

00:11:59Marc:Thank you.

00:12:01Marc:And that's not easy for me to say because I won't lie about stuff like that, but Mike sent me all of them, and I was in London.

00:12:07Marc:I was in England, and I was sitting on my bed.

00:12:09Marc:You kept me from masturbating for about a week in England.

00:12:14Guest:Well, then we've done our job.

00:12:15Marc:Yeah.

00:12:17Marc:I had all the shows, and I would sit at night in London watching them over and over again, and I found it very compelling.

00:12:22Marc:Oh, thanks.

00:12:22Marc:Thank you.

00:12:23Guest:It was funny the way you said that.

00:12:25Guest:I have to be honest to you.

00:12:26Guest:It was funny the way I like the show, like as if this is going to come as a shock.

00:12:31Guest:Well, you know me, Glenda.

00:12:33Marc:No, I know, I know.

00:12:34Guest:There's things he doesn't like.

00:12:35Marc:No, I know, I know, I know.

00:12:36Marc:Well, and it's hard for me not to be jealous or whatever, but as I was driving over here, I realized that Ray and you are like the nicest guys in the world in comedy.

00:12:46Marc:I mean, as far as I know.

00:12:47Marc:I've never had anything bad to say about either of you, so I can't even apologize or act like I had some sort of resentment or anything.

00:12:54Marc:Well, you interviewed Judd Apatow.

00:12:56Marc:He's a nice dude, right?

00:12:57Marc:He is a very nice guy.

00:12:58Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:12:58Marc:But one time, we all started together, I think, at the Comedy Cellar or around about that.

00:13:03Marc:Right.

00:13:03Marc:You hosted a lot.

00:13:04Marc:Yes, yes.

00:13:05Guest:And Ray, one time.

00:13:06Guest:I hosted it, too, in the beginning.

00:13:07Marc:Yeah, I missed that part.

00:13:09Guest:You were already... When you came, I passed the hosting on to Mike when you came.

00:13:14Guest:Yes.

00:13:14Marc:And I remember one time, you know, Ray walked in.

00:13:16Marc:I think I was sitting with Colin Quinn and maybe Louie or Jim Norton.

00:13:20Marc:And he said, oh, my God, this is an edgy table.

00:13:24Guest:I don't know if I can sit at the table.

00:13:27Guest:Well, there's a whole string of comics that when I'm around, I just...

00:13:31Guest:feel unfunny around, you know, because they're so edgy in there, and I just feel so not edgy, you know?

00:13:37Guest:But you're so fucking funny.

00:13:39Marc:You really believe that on some level that you're not funny?

00:13:41Guest:Well, I believe on stage I can, you know, whatever.

00:13:45Guest:Yeah.

00:13:46Guest:You know, I just did that Maxim article.

00:13:48Guest:Yes.

00:13:49Guest:A Q&A with Maxim where they actually, it's like if you have 24 hours to live, they're going to ask you these questions.

00:13:55Guest:And one of them was, which one of your jokes is going to send you straight to hell?

00:14:00Guest:And I had to make up and I had to say, if I had jokes like that, I would have got laid more as a comic, you know, because I just, yeah, I would come up with bits.

00:14:08Guest:Remember the time we would come up with bits and I would say, well, I got to give that to a tell.

00:14:11Guest:I can't do that joke.

00:14:12Guest:Right, right, right.

00:14:14Guest:I wish I could do it.

00:14:15Guest:But that's the thing.

00:14:15Guest:I remember from the beginning you were, I mean,

00:14:18Guest:You were very comfortable with who you were and at the same time very jealous of – not in a way that you actually wouldn't ever do that.

00:14:25Guest:But that was my biggest come down was I started with a tell.

00:14:28Guest:We started at the same exact time.

00:14:29Marc:I've got to be honest with you.

00:14:30Marc:I just had a tell on a live one.

00:14:33Marc:You're probably mentally and emotionally better off than that.

00:14:38Guest:Oh, boy, yeah.

00:14:40Guest:I go blow for blow for him mentally.

00:14:42Guest:No, but in different ways.

00:14:44Guest:On who's more miserable?

00:14:45Guest:Different kind of fucked up.

00:14:46Guest:He's epically miserable.

00:14:49Guest:He can turn anything into it.

00:14:50Marc:But he's one of those guys where it's like me.

00:14:52Marc:If I'm not neurotic and angry and he's not miserable, I mean, what are we really?

00:14:56Marc:How do we exist in the world?

00:14:57Guest:Well, that's what they say.

00:14:58Guest:When someone asks me how I love doing the show,

00:15:03Guest:My answer is I'm less miserable doing the show than not.

00:15:09Guest:When Raymond ended and we had four years of nothing, I was super miserable, and now I'm only medium miserable.

00:15:17Guest:Only up to miserable.

00:15:17Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:15:18Marc:But that's interesting because for me, I believe that if I had the run that you had with Raymond and that ended, that I would be like, I'm done.

00:15:26Marc:That's what I thought.

00:15:27Guest:That's how this show came about because –

00:15:30Guest:For the first couple months, I was like, this is going to be fun, man.

00:15:34Guest:First of all, I have time because for nine years, I had zero time.

00:15:38Guest:Now I have money.

00:15:40Guest:I got some time.

00:15:42Guest:I'll do this shit.

00:15:43Guest:I'll golf, whatever.

00:15:44Guest:I'll fucking hang out.

00:15:45Guest:And then about three, four months in, I had a freaking breakdown.

00:15:49Guest:I had a, I mean, not a real breakdown, but I had a big void, a big emotional shit.

00:15:55Guest:What the hell am I doing now?

00:15:56Guest:I can't, I gotta do something.

00:15:57Guest:Really?

00:15:58Guest:Yeah.

00:15:59Guest:And that's, we got together and we said, let's write a show about that.

00:16:02Guest:time of your life, you know?

00:16:03Marc:Where you hit that midlife wall?

00:16:06Marc:Yeah, the what's next kind of.

00:16:08Marc:That disappoints me because I'm still hanging on to the hope that I'm going to have that opportunity to be like, hey, I got everything.

00:16:16Marc:And you know what?

00:16:17Marc:It's not enough.

00:16:18Guest:I don't feel good.

00:16:19Guest:That was part of the, I mean, because I had the same thing going on and it was after Lucky Louie.

00:16:24Marc:Yeah, people should know that.

00:16:26Marc:You were head writer on Lucky Louie, right?

00:16:28Guest:Yeah, well, Louie, really.

00:16:29Guest:It was Louie's show, but I was the showrunner.

00:16:32Guest:You orbited Louie.

00:16:33Guest:Yes.

00:16:33Marc:So you're saying that you guys both had, you sort of hit a wall, you had down time.

00:16:36Guest:Well, yeah, and it was just, it was really, the fact that,

00:16:40Guest:Someone who could be wildly, wildly successful was having the same exact feeling that someone who is basically like I'm a total failure and what am I going to do next?

00:16:48Guest:It's the same.

00:16:48Guest:You just hit that age and you just are looking around at whatever the hell.

00:16:53Guest:If you had success, then you're thinking, is that it?

00:16:57Guest:I guess I have a lot more life left.

00:17:00Marc:So it's not even a matter of work.

00:17:02Marc:I think we're just sort of compulsive people and you need to continue to define yourself for who are you.

00:17:07Guest:Yes, there was a lot of who am I, what am I doing here.

00:17:11Guest:But you did a few movies.

00:17:13Guest:When Raymond ended, I did a couple of ones that went right to video.

00:17:20Guest:I did Ice Age again, which is great, but you're in a studio with nobody there.

00:17:30Right.

00:17:30Guest:There were a couple movies that I wanted to do that they didn't want me.

00:17:33Guest:You know, the ones I wanted, I didn't want to do.

00:17:35Marc:Why would they say they didn't want you?

00:17:37Guest:Well, they didn't want me, but I met with Little Miss Sunshine.

00:17:41Guest:I met those people, and I love that script.

00:17:43Guest:Yeah.

00:17:44Guest:And at first it got into Turn Around or whatever, and then it just went away.

00:17:51Guest:And Greg Kinnear got that role.

00:17:52Guest:And then there was this other movie called Paper Man.

00:17:55Guest:which I offered to buy the script from the guy because I met the director, and it was your friend, right?

00:18:00Guest:Wasn't your friend directing it?

00:18:01Guest:Yes, I met him on the strike, the guy who wrote that, yeah.

00:18:04Guest:And I loved the script so much, and when they kind of weren't into me, and then I heard it was having financial trouble, I said, can I buy the script?

00:18:12Guest:And I couldn't even do that.

00:18:13Guest:And then they made it with Bill... Jeff Daniels.

00:18:16Guest:With Jeff Daniels, yeah.

00:18:17Marc:Was that a big... It wasn't a big success, that movie.

00:18:20Marc:But is the film situation a disappointment to you in a big way?

00:18:23Marc:Are you happier with television?

00:18:25Marc:It seems like it's more work.

00:18:27Guest:Yeah, well, we were toying with making this a film.

00:18:29Guest:We didn't know what to do.

00:18:31Guest:It's funny because now when I think of all the work...

00:18:34Guest:I've said this to you.

00:18:35Guest:I say, why didn't we do a film?

00:18:36Guest:We should have just done a film.

00:18:38Guest:We could put all our energy into six months, and then we're done.

00:18:41Guest:And now you put all your energy.

00:18:42Guest:You're making a little film every seven days.

00:18:45Guest:You're filming it.

00:18:46Guest:But it takes a post.

00:18:48Guest:And as soon as that one's done, the next one's there.

00:18:51Guest:And it's like I say, it's crazy.

00:18:55Guest:So then you say, why am I doing it?

00:18:58Guest:And the answer is...

00:18:59Guest:I'm less miserable.

00:19:03Guest:I know what not doing it is like.

00:19:05Guest:And your wife has a little relief.

00:19:07Guest:Well, my wife, every time, you know what's weird is because we don't need the money.

00:19:13Guest:Yeah.

00:19:14Guest:So I got that, like whenever I'm away for too long, I can't even use that.

00:19:19Guest:I can't even use, hey, somebody's got to pay the bills.

00:19:21Guest:Because pay the bills, we got fucking 14 people running around our house.

00:19:26Guest:I don't even know their names.

00:19:27Yeah.

00:19:27Guest:So I can't even use that.

00:19:32Guest:But as much as I say this is too much, it's a good problem to have.

00:19:40Marc:Yeah, and also it seems to me that what you're doing with the show.

00:19:44Guest:By the way, let me just say, I know this sounds really depressing.

00:19:49Guest:That's all right.

00:19:49Guest:There's a lot of highs in this, even though we're miserable from the work.

00:19:54Guest:No, I know.

00:19:55Guest:The show or your life?

00:19:56Guest:The show, the show.

00:19:57Guest:I'm saying doing the show is a lot of... Oh, yeah, no, it's totally, it's the most exhilarating thing in the world.

00:20:02Guest:There's so much fucking work.

00:20:03Marc:Right, well, I mean, even me schlepping around this thing, even doing the podcast is a lot of work, and I think the dread that comes from just knowing that the work is not going to stop is normal.

00:20:12Marc:That, like, you know, okay, we finished, and, like, oh, there's another wave coming.

00:20:15Guest:Yes, yes.

00:20:15Marc:And it doesn't feel like you're going to get any relief from it, and that can be overwhelming.

00:20:18Guest:Well, and he really didn't get any relief.

00:20:20Guest:I mean, between seasons, you know...

00:20:22Guest:Oh, you mean now?

00:20:23Guest:I'm saying between this season and first season and second season, everything that happened in between, I'm saying.

00:20:28Guest:Well, I had a rough off-season.

00:20:30Guest:My father passed away.

00:20:31Guest:I'm sorry.

00:20:31Guest:Whatever.

00:20:33Guest:Yeah.

00:20:34Guest:Not to put it in this kind of context, but I guess it's literally the moment.

00:20:39Guest:We're done with the first season.

00:20:41Guest:All right, we've got some time off, like a month, just to relax.

00:20:44Guest:A lot of shit hit the fan for me.

00:20:46Guest:But going to work was a good getaway.

00:20:50Marc:Now, I have to assume that that kind of event or just being alive and having to deal with that kind of stuff, it seems to inform this show a lot.

00:20:58Marc:Because you're doing something fairly amazing with the show in that

00:21:02Marc:It's not dark, but it's honest, and yet it somehow is balanced out by comedy, but you spent nine years telling jokes.

00:21:09Marc:Everybody Loves Ray is a joke machine.

00:21:12Marc:That's how those kind of shows are written.

00:21:15Marc:You're there to deliver the next joke, even if something horrible is going to happen in the show.

00:21:19Marc:It's always buffered by jokes.

00:21:21Marc:Right.

00:21:21Marc:Whereas this show, the buffering comes from the emotional depth of each character.

00:21:27Marc:And somehow or another, because of the three characters, no one goes down too far to where you feel like, oh, Christ, I've got to turn this off or this guy's going to hurt himself.

00:21:35Marc:Well, TNT might differ with that.

00:21:38Guest:TNT won't allow us.

00:21:39Guest:We sometimes want to go a little deeper.

00:21:41Guest:What's an example of that?

00:21:42Guest:I think – The pilot, for example.

00:21:45Guest:Well, the pilot they thought was way too depressing.

00:21:47Guest:And actually the original pilot, whatever, the original version of the pilot was – at first they told us we could do commercial free, so it would be like an hour, a full hour.

00:21:58Guest:So we cut – we ended up cutting about 10, 15 minutes out.

00:22:01Guest:And first of all, it was a lot more possum stuff, which I'm not saying anybody wants that.

00:22:05Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:22:06Guest:Yeah, we ran over a possum, and then I don't know if you remember, but my character runs over a possum, and we don't know if he's dead or alive, so I've got to kill him just to... Right, I remember.

00:22:16Guest:Yeah, I've done that.

00:22:17Guest:Yeah, and then he runs into the woods, and then we go chase him in the woods, because I don't even know if he's really dead.

00:22:21Guest:I've got to go...

00:22:22Guest:We try to kill him over the big rock.

00:22:24Marc:And they cut that out and instead you go back with your bookie.

00:22:27Marc:At the end of the show.

00:22:29Marc:That was a very interesting choice.

00:22:30Marc:So that wasn't a bad choice because then that's the moment where you realize that Ray Romano, whoever you picture him to be, which most people have an idea of who you are because of your show.

00:22:41Marc:And now you've got you as this character that you've got a problem.

00:22:45Guest:You're right what you know.

00:22:50Guest:That's right.

00:22:50Marc:And it didn't feel far-fetched to me, but it was an interesting thing that there's a moment where you're like, he's fucking going back because you've got that thing.

00:22:57Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:22:57Marc:And then that sort of becomes amplified because your son starts to have it.

00:23:01Marc:Is that something you really have?

00:23:03Guest:The obsessive gene?

00:23:04Guest:Yeah, of course.

00:23:05Marc:Not the gene, the problem, right?

00:23:07Marc:I mean, to go back and see if a possum is dead, you know, 12 hours later.

00:23:10Guest:Yes, yes.

00:23:11Guest:And I'll tell you the true story was, by the way, that story about the possum running over and it's still alive, that was told to me by somebody else.

00:23:19Guest:Somebody ran him over, boom.

00:23:22Guest:Because they play dead.

00:23:23Marc:See, I ran one over in my driveway, and I thought he was going to be all right, and I went away for the evening.

00:23:28Marc:And then I came back, and I'm like, he's really committed.

00:23:32Marc:He's...

00:23:32Guest:He's not playing.

00:23:34Guest:What I did once, I told you this story.

00:23:36Guest:I remember in New York, when I was living in New York, and it was like 10 degrees out, and I drove past an old woman at a bus stop.

00:23:43Guest:And this was like about 10 o'clock at night, so the buses aren't coming frequently.

00:23:47Guest:This is in Queens.

00:23:48Guest:And she was an old woman, 10 degrees, maybe 15 degrees.

00:23:52Guest:And I'm driving somewhere and I see her, you know.

00:23:54Guest:And I think to myself, that woman could die tonight.

00:23:57Guest:At 15 degrees, she's 80-something years old.

00:23:59Guest:I go, on my conscience, I go, I got to go back and make sure because whatever.

00:24:04Guest:So I go around the block.

00:24:05Guest:And I open my window as I drive by and I just go, are you okay?

00:24:11Guest:And she's a little startled, you know, like, well, who's this guy talking to?

00:24:14Guest:And she goes, what?

00:24:15Guest:What?

00:24:16Guest:And I go, are you okay?

00:24:17Guest:It's very cold out.

00:24:17Guest:You okay?

00:24:18Guest:And she goes, yeah.

00:24:19Guest:And she's, you know, she doesn't know.

00:24:20Guest:Creepy guy talking to her.

00:24:22Guest:Yeah.

00:24:22Guest:And I saw that I startled her.

00:24:24Guest:So I drove away.

00:24:25Guest:I go, all right, she said she was okay.

00:24:26Guest:And then I started thinking, I just startled her in 15-degree weather.

00:24:31Guest:Yeah, what if she's having a – if her heart's skipping beats?

00:24:35Guest:So I had to go around again and just make sure she calmed down.

00:24:38Guest:And I went around again, and she saw me go around again.

00:24:41Guest:So now I'm fucking stuck going around the block for all night.

00:24:44Guest:And now you're frightening her.

00:24:45Guest:Until the bus comes.

00:24:46Marc:Yeah, and for the rest of that week, she's hoping that you don't show up in front of her house.

00:24:50Guest:But, yeah, but –

00:24:51Guest:I have that kind of crap.

00:24:54Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:24:55Marc:And the other thing about the show is because it seems like there's a couple of moments that really stand out to me that I can't shake in my mind because I understand them and I thought they were very deep and true.

00:25:08Marc:The fact that you have the reluctant fact that your only friend ends up being your bookie.

00:25:13Marc:Coming from, well, I mean, in the sense that you have this dark secret that, you know, having had a pass with drugs, you know, whatever your addiction is, you know, that guy knows this dark secret.

00:25:25Marc:So, you know, he's going to be there no matter what.

00:25:27Marc:He's a keeper.

00:25:28Guest:There's a bond.

00:25:28Guest:There's a weird bond between me and him.

00:25:30Marc:Now, did you, when you were talking about putting the show together, because you both, you guys, this came out of, this is really a co-creating show.

00:25:37Marc:Yes, yes, yes.

00:25:37Marc:Now, did you have to decide what your dark thing was going to be?

00:25:41Marc:I mean, could it have been porn?

00:25:43Marc:Could it have been drugs?

00:25:44Marc:Did you have to say, well, gambling, I think, is the most reasonable?

00:25:47Guest:Well, because I actually have a little history with gambling.

00:25:50Guest:So we always knew it was going to be gambling.

00:25:53Guest:Yeah.

00:25:54Guest:Oh, you do?

00:25:54Guest:Like what?

00:25:55Guest:Well, I mean, now nothing, but back before I had money, I tried to lose money I didn't have.

00:26:04Guest:You know what I mean?

00:26:04Guest:Right, right, sure.

00:26:05Guest:Yeah, I got close to being bad.

00:26:08Guest:I mean, I was.

00:26:09Guest:I was at one time.

00:26:10Guest:But I had no money to lose, thank God.

00:26:12Guest:Right.

00:26:12Guest:Thank God I got a handle of it before I made money.

00:26:16Guest:But I went to GA for a little bit.

00:26:18Guest:Oh, really?

00:26:19Guest:Yeah.

00:26:19Guest:Yeah, and so we knew that.

00:26:21Guest:And then on Raymond, we always wanted to do, well, what you're going to see this year is this.

00:26:26Guest:Right, a way, a coping mechanism.

00:26:29Guest:Yeah, I used to make mind bets, like to fill the gap of not being able to get the juice of gambling.

00:26:35Guest:I used to make mind bets where, like, okay, if I'm watching a football game, I don't put any money down.

00:26:41Guest:But if I say, you know what, I would take the Jets with seven.

00:26:44Guest:Okay, if the Jets don't cover...

00:26:46Guest:I can't watch TV for the rest of the week.

00:26:47Guest:I would make little mind bets like that.

00:26:49Guest:But would you really keep to them?

00:26:50Guest:Yes.

00:26:51Guest:That's the bad part.

00:26:53Guest:Yes.

00:26:53Guest:It became like a thing.

00:26:55Guest:I would God.

00:26:56Guest:I would swear to God and all that.

00:26:58Guest:So we tried to do that on Raymond, but it got a little too twisted.

00:27:00Guest:We kind of just thought it's too.

00:27:03Guest:It doesn't work if there's no gambling history behind it.

00:27:05Guest:Did you write on Raymond as well?

00:27:06Guest:Yeah.

00:27:06Guest:I didn't start out there.

00:27:07Guest:Oh, towards the end?

00:27:08Guest:I was the last six of the nine.

00:27:10Marc:There was no way you could figure out within that structure how to do it.

00:27:13Guest:It just felt a little too dark, right?

00:27:15Guest:Well, it was too dark or too goofy because if the character of Raymond had no gambling history, so then it just became a weird thing that that guy was doing.

00:27:22Marc:Right, right, right.

00:27:24Marc:Let's talk about the characters in the sense that writing a character that was Everybody Loves Ray, the dimension of that character is limited just by nature of the format, right?

00:27:35Guest:I mean, you can only do so much.

00:27:37Marc:You can't even have a real conversation.

00:27:38Marc:On Raymond?

00:27:39Marc:Yeah, on Raymond.

00:27:40Guest:Well, sitcom is... We try to make...

00:27:43Guest:Yes, you were in the genre you were in, you had to not do certain things and do certain things.

00:27:51Guest:But we tried to do it, keeping within that genre, we still hope we did it as real as possible.

00:27:57Guest:Right, no, no, of course.

00:27:58Guest:It still got broad, you know, it still got broad and it still got a, you know, because you had to.

00:28:02Guest:But we tried to make it grounded in somewhat of a reality.

00:28:06Guest:But the characters can't, they can't.

00:28:08Guest:move from the situation.

00:28:10Guest:They have to stay in the situation.

00:28:11Guest:You have to just do stories within that situation.

00:28:13Guest:Right, right, right.

00:28:14Marc:And if you don't, it's someone walking to a door saying, this just happened.

00:28:17Guest:Right, right.

00:28:18Marc:Well, here you can be where it happened.

00:28:20Guest:And here you can, I mean, this is almost like we're treating this like a, in a way, like a miniseries that just goes longer than a miniseries.

00:28:26Guest:I mean, this isn't going to be on for 10 seasons.

00:28:28Guest:We're not looking to make syndication money and all this kind of stuff.

00:28:31Guest:You can't be in a midlife crisis through, you know.

00:28:33Guest:But you might.

00:28:34Guest:Well,

00:28:34Guest:I guess so, but I think that we're thinking – like the way we're approaching it is the pilot is sort of where they begin to have an awareness of like there's a problem in a way or my life is not quite where I want it to be or whatever.

00:28:48Guest:And the end is sort of where they get through this phase in a way.

00:28:53Guest:And that can't be when they're 70 or whatever.

00:28:56Marc:Well, you look at the character of Ray's father on the show and looking at my father, there's no end to this shit.

00:29:01Marc:Right.

00:29:01Marc:Well, that's... I mean, it's not like it's going to get better from here on.

00:29:06Marc:That's true.

00:29:07Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:29:08Marc:No, we're not going to get cured of anything.

00:29:10Marc:You just have to deal with it in more, yeah.

00:29:12Marc:And Andre got a... Did he get a Andre Brauger?

00:29:15Marc:Is that how you pronounce it?

00:29:16Guest:Brower.

00:29:16Marc:Brower.

00:29:17Marc:I don't know why I always screw that up.

00:29:18Marc:He got an Emmy nomination.

00:29:19Guest:He was nominated.

00:29:20Marc:So that's a tremendous thing for this show.

00:29:21Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:29:22Guest:I thought – I mean I thought we were going to get shut out because it's too early.

00:29:26Guest:We're under the radar.

00:29:27Guest:Yeah, not very many episodes and stuff.

00:29:29Marc:But he's acting – Well, it's just interesting.

00:29:32Marc:It's like it's just a different role for him and also that –

00:29:34Marc:I think everybody's just as good as the next guy.

00:29:37Marc:But that weird thing with his father, to see him knowing his history as an actor, it's sort of like eat his tongue and just eat his heart.

00:29:48Marc:Every time his father steps into the thing, that's just a decision where you're thinking he's going to step out of it and stand up to him.

00:29:54Marc:But he's wired as the character not to be able to.

00:29:56Guest:Yeah, he's not the guy from Homicide, as you remember.

00:29:58Guest:And he can't confront his father.

00:30:00Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:30:00Guest:Even though his father's just buffoon.

00:30:02Guest:Yes.

00:30:02Guest:I mean, that's why it was such a weird choice when somebody pitched Andre Brower.

00:30:06Guest:Because we had pictured Wendell Pierce.

00:30:09Guest:I don't know if you know The Wire, the show The Wire.

00:30:10Guest:Yeah, sure.

00:30:11Guest:Which one?

00:30:12Guest:Detective Bunk.

00:30:13Guest:Bunk, yeah.

00:30:14Guest:Yeah.

00:30:14Guest:He got a cigar.

00:30:15Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:30:16Guest:He's in everything.

00:30:17Guest:He's in, how do you say it?

00:30:18Guest:Treme?

00:30:18Guest:Treme, yeah.

00:30:19Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:30:20Guest:We kind of wrote it.

00:30:21Guest:We wrote...

00:30:22Guest:think Wendell Pierce.

00:30:23Guest:And we met Wendell Pierce and we thought he's the guy, the put-upon guy who's a little overweight and whatever.

00:30:29Guest:And then he met with us and he loved it, but then Tremi came.

00:30:33Guest:And so then they pitched Andre Brau and we thought, well, Andre Brau is that...

00:30:37Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:30:38Guest:That aura that he has.

00:30:38Guest:You just picture him taking command of the strong guy.

00:30:41Guest:And this guy, and he came and met with us.

00:30:43Guest:And, you know, he's such a great actor.

00:30:46Guest:We said, let's err on the side of going with the best actor.

00:30:50Guest:Yeah.

00:30:51Guest:And I think he embraced it because he didn't want to play the guy with the gun chasing.

00:30:56Guest:He wanted to be the guy who was knocked down, you know.

00:31:00Guest:And then the comedy, we were just wondering, you know, you don't think Andre Brouwer when you think comedy.

00:31:05Guest:Here's a perfect example.

00:31:07Guest:I don't know.

00:31:08Guest:For us guys, it might be funny.

00:31:10Guest:We wrote a line last show, was it, where he does something to his wife.

00:31:15Guest:He screws up.

00:31:16Guest:He says the wrong thing to his wife.

00:31:17Guest:And he's telling us at the diner how he fucked up, you know.

00:31:21Guest:And he says...

00:31:22Guest:You know, he stuck his foot in his mouth, and now I've got to go home and talk to her about it.

00:31:27Guest:I didn't talk to her yet.

00:31:29Guest:And Scott Baker looks at him, there's a beat, and Scott Baker goes, you scared?

00:31:35Guest:No, well, first he says, I'm going to go, and I'm going to tell her.

00:31:37Guest:He puts up a good front.

00:31:39Guest:Yeah, look, I'm going to tell her I was just having a bad day, and if she can't understand that, then, well, I don't know what I'm going to do.

00:31:45Guest:And then Terry was supposed to go...

00:31:47Guest:You scared?

00:31:47Guest:And he was supposed to come in, we wrote, quickly, you know, a little bit.

00:31:52Guest:You know that comic rhythm?

00:31:54Guest:You scared?

00:31:54Guest:A little bit.

00:31:55Guest:A little bit.

00:31:56Guest:And I told Mike, I go, there's no way Andre is going to have that timing in his head.

00:32:01Guest:He's a Juilliard trained actor.

00:32:02Guest:He's not going to get it.

00:32:03Guest:And sure enough, he went just the opposite.

00:32:06Guest:He goes, Scott Bagley goes, you scared?

00:32:09Guest:And Andre just looked for a while.

00:32:10Guest:The longest beat went...

00:32:13Guest:Little bit.

00:32:14Guest:And it was still funny.

00:32:15Guest:It was still funny, you know?

00:32:18Guest:Yeah.

00:32:19Guest:And that's what I'm saying.

00:32:19Guest:That's how he's funny because he's super real.

00:32:22Guest:And we had an episode last year where he was supposed to be a guy.

00:32:25Guest:Well, he was supposed to be when he did a commercial, you know?

00:32:28Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:32:29Guest:And it's kind of an old type of print.

00:32:31Guest:You're not getting it right.

00:32:32Guest:But when you take a guy who's known for being one of the greatest actors of all time and just see him act badly, he did it so effortlessly.

00:32:43Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:32:43Guest:So not joking.

00:32:46Guest:You really believe that guy, that character is nervous.

00:32:50Marc:So when you guys are doing these shows and you're writing these scripts and you're acting these things out in rehearsals, I have to assume before I get into that, that Scott Bakula, that character, being out here as long as we have or you guys have in Hollywood, had to be the most familiar character.

00:33:05Guest:We based it on our guy.

00:33:07Guest:You know Tom Caltabiano?

00:33:08Guest:I do kind of know him.

00:33:09Guest:Yeah, he's a comic, right?

00:33:10Guest:Yeah, from New York, yeah.

00:33:12Guest:Did he work on your show?

00:33:12Guest:He worked on Raymond.

00:33:13Guest:That was more the woman side of it than the actor or, you know, burnout guy.

00:33:17Marc:Well, I mean, for people that don't know, Scott Bakula plays this perpetual sort of bachelor, you know, the guy who says he's an actor but never really – he's already defeated but he holds on to this idea that he's still an actor, I think, for real in his head.

00:33:30Marc:Yeah.

00:33:30Marc:And he's always on the make and, you know, hanging out with chicks and, you know.

00:33:34Guest:Yeah.

00:33:34Guest:His attitude is basically – it's so in his rearview mirror that he almost pretends he's not – he never admits – because you never get to that point where you're like, I'm giving up now.

00:33:44Guest:How do you know when to do that?

00:33:45Guest:Because I need to know.

00:33:48Guest:Watch the show.

00:33:49Marc:Whatever he's doing.

00:33:50Marc:No, that's the thing.

00:33:51Marc:I can't sell cars.

00:33:53Guest:Right.

00:33:53Guest:That's what we kept talking about is just – I mean, you've talked about it on your show before, but –

00:33:57Guest:In this business, you can keep going, keep going until you get to this age, and you're fucked because you have no other skills.

00:34:03Marc:It's also you against this dream, and there's some part of you that insulates you from knowing whether or not you're failing because you keep moving your barometers for success up.

00:34:14Marc:When I was younger, I was like, well, I'm not going to be part of the Brat Pack, and then eventually it becomes Rodney Dangerfield didn't make it until he was in his 60s.

00:34:22Marc:Right, right.

00:34:22Marc:Louis Black was 52.

00:34:25Marc:This could happen in any second.

00:34:27Guest:Look at Betty White.

00:34:28Marc:Yeah, Betty White's just now taken off.

00:34:32Marc:But those, I guess what I was going to ask you before is that because you're dealing with real things, I mean, the things you haven't dealt with,

00:34:39Marc:Our death, really, have you?

00:34:41Marc:No?

00:34:43Marc:On the show?

00:34:44Guest:Yeah.

00:34:45Guest:I mean, I think that's inevitable.

00:34:47Guest:Not in the first season, no.

00:34:48Marc:Religion, really?

00:34:49Marc:You know, you haven't really dealt with that kind of stuff with where these people, no one's hit a wall like that?

00:34:54Marc:And I know that you guys are both pretty spiritual people in different venues.

00:34:59Marc:I mean, when you say you were afraid to go to hell, you're afraid to go to hell, right?

00:35:02Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:35:03Guest:I have the fear in me.

00:35:06Marc:So when you didn't do a joke that a tell might do...

00:35:08Guest:Tell us you're already going to hell.

00:35:10Guest:I wasn't afraid of going to hell because I was afraid of not getting rebooked at the club for doing that joke.

00:35:16Guest:Which is the same in comedy.

00:35:18Marc:That's right.

00:35:18Marc:It's the only club you're working.

00:35:20Marc:And you're a pretty spiritual guy, right?

00:35:22Guest:Well, I'm a Buddhist, although I've found that kids got in the way of Buddhism.

00:35:27Guest:So you're no longer at peace.

00:35:30Guest:Yeah.

00:35:31Guest:I'm just a shitty Buddhist.

00:35:33Guest:I don't practice as well.

00:35:35Guest:I believe...

00:35:37Guest:I haven't given up.

00:35:39Guest:I just don't do it as much.

00:35:40Guest:It's like a car that's in the garage that I don't take out ever.

00:35:44Marc:Now, when you do these scenes, I guess the question I was getting at is that you're still looking at them as comedy scenes.

00:35:51Marc:Because they're pretty hairy, but when you look at it, you think at the end of it, you don't let it get to a point where there's something that the tension is not going to be relieved.

00:35:59Guest:Well, I think that's in our blood somehow.

00:36:02Guest:We're always saying, oh, that'll be funny.

00:36:04Guest:We always catch ourselves going, oh, that'll be a funny scene.

00:36:06Guest:And then it ends up

00:36:07Guest:I mean, we're most – it's all about the story, and then we – that just stuff comes out, but we try not to push it, I guess.

00:36:15Guest:Yes.

00:36:16Guest:We want it to be ultra real.

00:36:19Guest:Like on Raymond, we wanted the comedy to be real, but it was still within the –

00:36:23Guest:You start to be jokes, actual jokes.

00:36:26Guest:And here, if there's going to be a joke or a laugh, it's got to be super real.

00:36:32Guest:Because there's a couple times we catch ourselves where I go, that's Ray Barone talking right there.

00:36:37Guest:That's a Ray Barone.

00:36:38Marc:They can't be like one-liners.

00:36:39Marc:They have to come from the character.

00:36:41Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:36:43Guest:But we do – it's funny because we think of it as –

00:36:46Guest:It's a drama with comedy in it.

00:36:48Guest:I think it's some weird hybrid.

00:36:50Guest:Yeah, it is.

00:36:52Marc:I don't know if I've ever seen anything like it, which is what makes it really great.

00:36:55Marc:Larry Sanders had a kind of a tone where you were dealing with funny people who were dealing with fairly real issues.

00:37:03Guest:We use the movie – what's the movie with Giamatti?

00:37:09Guest:Sideways.

00:37:10Guest:Sideways.

00:37:10Guest:Kind of like a sideways vibe.

00:37:12Guest:That's great.

00:37:12Marc:By Jim and – what's the other guy's name?

00:37:15Marc:Jim Taylor and Alexander Payne.

00:37:16Marc:Yeah.

00:37:17Marc:I mean they definitely do dark comedy.

00:37:19Guest:Yeah.

00:37:19Marc:And that movie is one of my favorites.

00:37:21Guest:Well, that's – I mean the pilot we kind of treated like it was an independent – I mean we always wanted to have an independent film feel and –

00:37:27Guest:I think that's what caught them a little off guard.

00:37:30Guest:Before they picked us up, they were a little like, it's not going to be that depressing all the time, is it?

00:37:36Guest:First of all, we didn't think it was very depressing.

00:37:37Guest:What the hell were they afraid of?

00:37:38Guest:Well, that's my point.

00:37:40Guest:My point is the reason we got good reviews was because people thought of Men of a Certain Age, Ray Romano, they were expecting not what they saw.

00:37:50Guest:People came into it thinking it's going to be a balls-out comedy or

00:37:53Guest:Or stupid shit.

00:37:54Guest:Or stupid shit.

00:37:55Guest:Stupid shit.

00:37:56Guest:Yeah.

00:37:57Guest:People came in thinking, this is going to be some more stupid shit.

00:37:59Guest:We were at the focus group, and they split the men and the women up at focus groups.

00:38:05Guest:This is just like they bring people in to see it.

00:38:08Guest:Yeah, just for the pilot.

00:38:09Guest:They don't do this like every show, but just for the pilot.

00:38:11Marc:To get a sense of what people feel.

00:38:12Guest:Yes, yes.

00:38:13Guest:And so the news from the focus group was actually mostly very good.

00:38:17Guest:But there was this one guy who was like, I just saw when it came on,

00:38:22Guest:and Ray Romano's face came on the screen.

00:38:26Guest:All I could think to myself was, oh, great, more crap.

00:38:30Guest:And then there was a beat, and he goes, but he was pretty good.

00:38:36Guest:It was good.

00:38:36Guest:It was like a different thing.

00:38:37Guest:More crap.

00:38:39Guest:You've gotten more backhanded compliments about this show where they shit on everybody else, Raymond.

00:38:45Guest:Those are the good compliments.

00:38:46Guest:Never liked them in Raymond.

00:38:48Guest:Really?

00:38:49Guest:But there's a lot of people.

00:38:50Guest:That's what happened in the first season is after that show, The Closer, which is a fine show.

00:38:56Guest:It's just different than ours, and you could see the audience...

00:38:59Guest:changing you know like we're not we're not i don't think we're drafting right completely off of there so there's a lot of people coming to it thinking it's everybody was raymond and then as we went along we sort of sifted through the people who okay this isn't everybody was raymond then other people came aboard you know well what do you think that that reaction to raymond is because i mean raymond's an incredibly successful show but what what is the general criticism of that character too nice a guy or what

00:39:22Guest:No, there are people who, you know, we have... Look, we were great.

00:39:26Guest:We did great as fans.

00:39:28Guest:But there are people who just don't like the... Every sitcom has people who fucking hate it.

00:39:32Guest:Yeah, the sitcom, you know, the whole... It's goofy.

00:39:38Guest:It's also just time, you know, time.

00:39:41Guest:I remember when Raymond came on in 96...

00:39:43Guest:The whole thing was Seinfeld at that point.

00:39:45Guest:So then Raimi came out, and I knew you, but still, I was watching at home, and I was sitting there going, this is actually kind of good.

00:39:52Guest:This isn't just my friend doing a sitcom.

00:39:55Guest:It's calm, and first of all, they were one of the first sitcoms, and still one of the only sitcoms, to just do one story.

00:40:02Guest:I mean, since like the 70s and the 70s used to be that way.

00:40:05Guest:But they would just do one story beginning to end.

00:40:07Guest:There were no A, B, C, D stories.

00:40:08Guest:You know, let's catch up with this guy over here.

00:40:10Guest:They just want, you know, beginning to end.

00:40:12Guest:And the story was incredibly small, but you still wanted to see, OK, what happens next?

00:40:16Guest:What happens next?

00:40:18Guest:And it was also within the context of a sitcom much more real.

00:40:22Guest:Right.

00:40:23Guest:By the way, I'm very proud of the show.

00:40:24Guest:I don't want to feel like I'm – No, no, no.

00:40:27Guest:I'm proud of what we did.

00:40:28Guest:It was very critically acclaimed when it started and to the end.

00:40:33Guest:But it's just the nature of a sitcom because the first couple of years, it's the overlooked thing.

00:40:38Guest:Then suddenly people climb a board and it's more popular.

00:40:40Guest:And I remember going to the Emmys and it was like, when is Raymond going to – they're so overlooked, so overlooked.

00:40:45Guest:Then we actually won.

00:40:46Guest:And then the next year, it was like, when are these old fucks going to get out of there?

00:40:50Guest:They're taking up space.

00:40:52Guest:This is overrated.

00:40:53Guest:It just turns on a dime.

00:40:55Marc:And so much about a sitcom is driven by the ensemble.

00:40:57Marc:I mean, if that was such a unit, I mean, the symbiotic relationship between all those characters, I mean, more so than almost anything else, that if the characters work together on a sitcom and everybody digs them and they all work together perfectly, it doesn't happen that often.

00:41:13Marc:That happened.

00:41:14Guest:yeah yeah we got lucky casting i mean you got to get so lucky you know like brad garrett brad garrett wasn't on the page that guy that character wasn't yeah yeah yeah yeah even when they pitched him because it was based on my brother in real life who's you know this is kind of low-key five foot ten he's an ex-cop yeah i met that guy once i think you met my brother yeah at the cellar once yeah yeah yeah he's a new york cop for 20 years

00:41:39Guest:And then they pitched Brad Garrett, and I remember him, all I remember him was from Stosser, which was this 6'8", big Jewish guy.

00:41:46Guest:He did impressions.

00:41:48Guest:He did impressions, yeah.

00:41:49Guest:And they pitched him, and I went, what?

00:41:51Guest:And then Brad came in, and he said lines that there weren't laughs there, and yet he was getting laughs.

00:41:56Guest:And, yeah, so that's the kind of shit you've got to step in to get a hit show, you know?

00:42:01Marc:Now, when you did this show, once you decided it wasn't going to be a movie, was it always about not network?

00:42:07Marc:Or did you take it to networks?

00:42:09Guest:No, it was always cable.

00:42:11Guest:You took it to HBO?

00:42:12Guest:We were at HBO first, and we were there.

00:42:15Guest:And Chris Albrecht was moving it along.

00:42:17Guest:Right.

00:42:17Guest:And then he got... He got an incident.

00:42:20Guest:And that's what happened?

00:42:22Guest:Well, then it went...

00:42:23Guest:the powers that be that came in.

00:42:26Guest:Well, it was a messy situation, but I think we've, the basic thing is I think we got lost a little bit in the shuffle.

00:42:32Guest:Yeah.

00:42:33Guest:And also, honestly, even when we were writing it, we were like, we want to be on HBO so we can just, the guys can talk the way they want to talk.

00:42:39Guest:I want to say fuck.

00:42:40Guest:I want to say fuck.

00:42:42Marc:And now you can't?

00:42:43Marc:I can't remember.

00:42:44Guest:That's the one word you really can't say.

00:42:46Guest:You don't need it.

00:42:48Marc:It's like the old guy.

00:42:49Guest:You don't need to talk.

00:42:51Guest:We don't talk like that.

00:42:52Guest:Now it's down a notch because now there's certain people who are like, why do they have to say shit?

00:42:56Guest:And like, shit?

00:42:58Guest:is so innocuous, it's hard for me to believe people still get offended.

00:43:01Marc:It's funny, though, with old people, because I remember one time I knew an old gangster who owned a sub shop in Albuquerque, New Mexico, where I grew up.

00:43:07Marc:I don't know what level of gangster he was, but his name was Vinny.

00:43:11Marc:And I thought he was the coolest guy in the world, so I'd hang out there when I was in high school.

00:43:14Marc:And I loved the movie Raging Bull.

00:43:17Marc:And I said, I loved that movie.

00:43:18Marc:Is that what it was like?

00:43:20Marc:And he looks at me and goes, no.

00:43:22Marc:And I go, what do you mean?

00:43:23Marc:He goes, we didn't talk like that in front of the women.

00:43:25Marc:That was his only criticism.

00:43:28Marc:Everything else could have been right on the money.

00:43:30Guest:The shooting and the killing.

00:43:31Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:43:32Guest:But we didn't talk like that in front of the women.

00:43:34Guest:I think also people coming from everyone else, Raymond, they just instantly thought, oh, they're saying words because they want to be cool.

00:43:41Guest:Like they just instantly thought that's what we're doing.

00:43:43Guest:And it was so not, it's like, first of all, we don't think that's very cool.

00:43:46Guest:It's basic cable.

00:43:47Guest:So they're not maybe ready to hear that.

00:43:50Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:43:51Marc:Now, when you act, I think you've gotten good.

00:43:58Marc:You weren't bad, but it's a different kind of acting.

00:44:02Marc:When you were on Ray, your comedic voice was so in place and that you definitely knew where you were at.

00:44:08Marc:But here...

00:44:09Marc:At first, because that was my initial thought, was like, how is he going to pull this off?

00:44:14Marc:But it's very natural.

00:44:16Marc:To assume that a guy who's got a gambling problem is going to be a degenerate is a misconception.

00:44:23Marc:I think the way that you handle it is very reasonable.

00:44:26Marc:And that moment where you choose to gamble for the new house, that's fucking insane.

00:44:33Marc:And like, you know, like that moment with the girl, with the woman.

00:44:37Marc:I'm like that.

00:44:38Marc:I mean, that was that a difficult choice to make on what the woman who you told.

00:44:42Guest:I'm going to be honest.

00:44:44Guest:I'm going to be honest.

00:44:45Marc:Now, was there a choice that you were making on that?

00:44:47Marc:Like, is she going to stay or you knew she was going to go?

00:44:49Marc:Does she come back?

00:44:50Marc:She's going to come back at some point, yes.

00:44:53Guest:Because, you know, we had such a cool thing going on, me and her, you know.

00:44:58Guest:So, you know, we just got one glimpse of them connecting, you know, that was good.

00:45:04Marc:But the fact that she thought you were a good guy and then you told her this choice and that, like, in my reading of it, because it is like film or I wouldn't put this much thought into it, was that guy that she in that moment said, you know, this guy's in tremendous denial and if he's willing to take that kind of risk, you know, I don't want to be involved emotionally with this person.

00:45:20Guest:Yeah, that's exactly kind of it.

00:45:22Guest:We didn't really get into the backstory of her that much, but there's something there that's scaring her away from him.

00:45:28Guest:Yes.

00:45:29Guest:All that and then informed by the fact that anybody who's in this age range, there's always a lot of like, you cut bait pretty quick, you know.

00:45:36Guest:Right.

00:45:37Guest:Somebody who's a 40 or 40, 45 year old woman hangs around a little less than maybe a 25 year old who's like, you know, but they got their own problems, too.

00:45:45Guest:Yes.

00:45:46Guest:Yes, that's right.

00:45:47Marc:I mean, if they're 45 and they're not with somebody either, you know, they got dumped and it's a tragic story or they're unbearable.

00:45:52Marc:Yeah.

00:45:55Guest:I think we're exploring a little of that this season.

00:45:57Guest:Yeah.

00:45:57Guest:Well, to some extent, there's a little more women coming into this.

00:46:00Marc:And then the Bakula breakdown.

00:46:02Marc:I mean, was that something that you were familiar with?

00:46:04Marc:I mean, that moment where a guy realizes that he's lying to himself.

00:46:07Marc:And I think that happens certainly with your character and with Bakula's character.

00:46:11Marc:I mean, I relate to this because I'm 47.

00:46:14Marc:I've been through two marriages.

00:46:15Marc:I've got no kids.

00:46:15Marc:I work in my garage.

00:46:17Marc:I mean, this is a big day for me.

00:46:18Marc:I'm taking the equipment out.

00:46:20Guest:You got snacks over here.

00:46:22Guest:Yeah, that's what the first thing I said was, oh, Twizzlers.

00:46:25Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:46:25Marc:Yeah, I'm the guy that's, yeah, you got everything in the writer's room and I'm going to leave with some in my bag.

00:46:30Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:46:30Marc:But, you know, the chaos of this time, it's different than when you're a kid because, you know, like Bacula's living like a kid and you finally figure out how to have sex and that you can get women, you know, which is like when you're younger, it's like the greatest thing in the world.

00:46:44Marc:But when you're older, it becomes this weird liability to where you're like, you know, you're hiding from yourself.

00:46:49Marc:And that meltdown that you have on the hike, and if I'm spoiling this for anybody.

00:46:54Guest:No, it's last year, so you're good.

00:46:56Guest:DVD comes out November 9th.

00:46:59Marc:November 9th for the first season?

00:47:01Marc:Yes.

00:47:02Marc:But when he has that meltdown, is that something you've experienced with people?

00:47:05Marc:Because I've had that meltdown several times.

00:47:06Marc:I had it two days ago.

00:47:08Marc:The meltdown where you're like, I'm lying to myself.

00:47:11Marc:Who am I kidding?

00:47:13Marc:And really at a crossroads where he's managing that building.

00:47:16Marc:People who do that, who hold on to a dream too long, are just looking to survive, and if they can somehow romanticize.

00:47:23Guest:At some level, I think everybody has that point, unless you're Justin Bieber.

00:47:30Guest:Well, he's 12.

00:47:31Guest:He'll have it.

00:47:33Guest:Who realizes his dream.

00:47:35Guest:And he didn't even know it.

00:47:37Guest:But I was in my 20s and I still had that.

00:47:41Guest:I remember doing stand-up and I was doing stand-up 11 years.

00:47:45Guest:And that's when everybody was kind of getting scooped up for sitcoms and all that.

00:47:50Guest:And I remember having a moment there and I was 36 then.

00:47:56Marc:Before Ray.

00:47:57Guest:before raymond right before before any kind of offer of any kind of thing and i was 36 and i was kind of loving what i was doing you know but at 36 years old you just wonder you know what is there a next step what you know has it passed me by this you know because i thought i'm out there everybody sees me yeah and nobody's nobody's doing anything so is this it is this what i'm going to be doing

00:48:21Marc:That's a horrible moment, though.

00:48:24Marc:Because by that point, you've had a taste of what clubs are like.

00:48:27Marc:And even if you're doing bigger rooms, you're still going out to governors.

00:48:30Marc:You're still going out to rascals.

00:48:32Marc:You're still giving Marc Maron a ride home to Queens, even though he makes you uncomfortable.

00:48:36Marc:Do you remember that?

00:48:37Marc:You're like, all right.

00:48:38Marc:I remember it specifically because I was wandering around moping.

00:48:41Marc:You gave him a ride home.

00:48:42Marc:Once.

00:48:43Marc:Like it was after the salary.

00:48:44Guest:We're in Queens.

00:48:45Guest:We're in Queens.

00:48:46Marc:I was in Astoria.

00:48:47Marc:And I don't know.

00:48:48Marc:I believe you took me.

00:48:49Marc:You dropped me off somewhere over there.

00:48:51Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:48:51Marc:Over the bridge.

00:48:52Marc:We went over the bridge or something?

00:48:53Marc:Right.

00:48:54Marc:But I remember there's that moment because you knew me, but we're very different types of people.

00:48:58Marc:And I was like, you know, walking.

00:48:59Marc:We were walking and talking.

00:49:00Marc:He's like, where are you going?

00:49:02Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:49:03Marc:Oh, to fucking Queens.

00:49:04Marc:There was this moment where you're like, am I going to do this?

00:49:06Guest:All right.

00:49:07Guest:Let me tell you something.

00:49:08Guest:If I had trepidation, it's because...

00:49:11Guest:Because guys like you who – see, I always think I'm up there.

00:49:16Guest:I'm doing great.

00:49:17Guest:I'm a good comic.

00:49:18Guest:I'm not going to – You're a great comic.

00:49:20Guest:As much as I shit on myself, I know what I'm good at.

00:49:23Guest:That's the one thing I'm good at.

00:49:24Guest:But I also know you guys are irreverent and smart and all that shit, and that's what gets me intimidated.

00:49:30Guest:Havy would do it to get me intimidated.

00:49:32Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:49:32Guest:You, Attell, John Stewart, all these guys that had something there.

00:49:37Guest:And there I am talking about poop and my marriage.

00:49:39Guest:I remember more of your jokes.

00:49:40Guest:Then I do those guys.

00:49:41Guest:Well, I know.

00:49:42Guest:I mean, I do it well, but, you know.

00:49:44Marc:I remember the joke.

00:49:45Marc:It's a joke that I always, it's like when you get older and you're feeling around.

00:49:49Marc:Oh, there's a lump.

00:49:51Marc:Oh, there's one over here.

00:49:52Marc:That's a set.

00:49:53Guest:Okay, it's good.

00:49:54Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:49:55Guest:I've been in the shower.

00:49:56Marc:No time for that.

00:49:58Guest:I remember.

00:49:59Marc:Oh, yeah, the fantasy bit.

00:50:00Guest:You remember that bit?

00:50:01Guest:Here's the sad part.

00:50:02Guest:That one's still in the act.

00:50:04Guest:The shower bit.

00:50:05Yeah.

00:50:05Guest:Come go to the Mirage in Vegas.

00:50:07Marc:You'll see it.

00:50:09Marc:But that moment you're talking about, it's a horrifying moment because at that point, 36, you're too far in.

00:50:15Marc:I got a wife.

00:50:17Guest:I got two kids at that time, three kids at that time.

00:50:20Guest:No plan B.

00:50:20Guest:I mean, what the fuck is the plan B?

00:50:22Guest:But don't get me wrong.

00:50:23Guest:I'm making money doing something that – I'm not digging ditches.

00:50:26Guest:Right.

00:50:26Guest:No, I get it.

00:50:27Guest:I get it.

00:50:28Guest:But you just wonder, did I get to the top of the ladder?

00:50:32Guest:Is that it?

00:50:32Marc:But was the plan – because a lot of people believe – and this is a – I think a – like a lot of people – see, you're a comic.

00:50:40Marc:I talked to Robin Williams.

00:50:42Marc:Well, he's the best example in the sense that you get younger comics now that are looking at guys and they think like –

00:50:49Marc:fucking Ray Romano, Robin Williams.

00:50:51Marc:It's like you were a comic.

00:50:53Marc:It's all you ever did.

00:50:55Marc:And when people talk, I've never heard anyone say negative things about you, but a lot of people with Robin, they're like, he's a hack, he's a thief, he's this, he's that.

00:51:02Marc:But it's like, but wait, he was 27 and he was a stand-up comedian and he got this opportunity and he held on to a career.

00:51:08Marc:And you were nothing but a comic.

00:51:11Marc:And then this came.

00:51:12Marc:I mean, obviously you wanted this, but you didn't see it coming?

00:51:16Guest:I didn't go into it for this.

00:51:19Guest:I went into it for comedy.

00:51:20Guest:I loved doing stand-up comedy.

00:51:23Guest:And as a kid watching comedy, that was a dream.

00:51:27Guest:Who were your guys?

00:51:28Guest:Well, Bill Cosby was the first comedy album I ever heard.

00:51:33Guest:I remember hearing Bill Cosby.

00:51:35Guest:to russell my brother whom i slept with was the name of the album and i remember my buddy just going to my buddy's house and saying we got to hear this and you know that kind of storytelling and all that stuff is it great when the first time you listen to comedy records when you're a kid with the other person because you just sit there looking at them like yeah yeah you take credit for it because you show them yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah uh so i him you know and uh then steve martin was around and and carlin and robert klein

00:52:01Guest:But Cosby was the guy that really planted the seed in my head, I think, you know.

00:52:08Guest:And then that's why, you know, even at the improv, I recorded them all, and then I tried it, and then whatever.

00:52:14Guest:I gave it up.

00:52:15Guest:I bombed.

00:52:16Guest:You know, I don't know how your story was, but usually...

00:52:18Guest:You do it.

00:52:19Guest:You do well.

00:52:20Guest:First night, the audition night, you do well.

00:52:22Guest:You think this is easy, and then you bomb, and it scares the shit out of you.

00:52:25Guest:And I went away for two years.

00:52:26Guest:Yeah, I've maintained that level of inconsistency throughout my career.

00:52:29Guest:You're a purist.

00:52:30Guest:Yeah.

00:52:31Guest:You went away for two years?

00:52:32Marc:You got scared off?

00:52:33Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:52:34Guest:I did well the first night.

00:52:35Guest:How old were you?

00:52:35Guest:I was at the improv.

00:52:36Guest:I was 23.

00:52:38Guest:The original improv on 44th Street.

00:52:40Guest:Yes, on 44th.

00:52:41Guest:Audition night.

00:52:43Guest:Here's the story.

00:52:44Guest:You pick the name out of a hat.

00:52:46Guest:You go, Sunday afternoon.

00:52:47Guest:You pick a number out of a hat.

00:52:50Guest:If you get a number, there's 50 people, and they give out 20 numbers.

00:52:53Guest:The rest are blanks.

00:52:54Guest:If you get a number, that's when you're on.

00:52:56Guest:I brought a girl with me from the neighborhood, a friend, to pick four also, so I have two chances.

00:53:03Guest:And she goes, what if I get picked?

00:53:04Guest:They're going to ask my name.

00:53:06Guest:Right there, the guy with the clipboard says, what's your name?

00:53:08Guest:So I had to give an androgynous name.

00:53:10Guest:I said, just tell them, if you get picked, say you're Jackie Roberts.

00:53:13Guest:So she got the pick.

00:53:15Guest:So I went on that night as Jackie Roberts.

00:53:18Guest:And then I got a call back.

00:53:20Guest:So for the first three months, I was Jackie Roberts.

00:53:24Guest:I never knew that.

00:53:24Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:53:25Guest:I told you that story.

00:53:26Guest:I never knew that.

00:53:27Guest:I told you that story.

00:53:27Guest:I didn't do it.

00:53:28Guest:Yeah.

00:53:29Guest:And then I gave it up.

00:53:29Guest:Then when I got a taste of how hard it was, I gave it up.

00:53:32Guest:Came back two years later.

00:53:33Marc:What did you do in those two years?

00:53:35Guest:Nothing.

00:53:36Guest:I was home.

00:53:37Guest:That's when I...

00:53:38Guest:My brother got married.

00:53:39Guest:Everybody left.

00:53:40Guest:I kind of crashed then.

00:53:41Guest:I had kind of an emotional – I had kind of what Terry's going through now, the actor now, I had then.

00:53:48Guest:I'm nowhere.

00:53:50Guest:I got nothing.

00:53:51Guest:I was living at home.

00:53:52Guest:I lived at home until I was 29.

00:53:54Guest:Wow.

00:53:55Guest:Yeah.

00:53:56Marc:And, Mike, you were like – I remember that you were very nice up there on stage.

00:54:02Marc:And I think I busted your balls about it.

00:54:03Guest:that's everybody everybody would say you're so not yeah that was my whole thing and SD I'm the king of the backhanded compliment as far as because SD would you know the comedy seller would you know you're such a good host which is you know a horrible thing to hear but it's true I actually take pride in it like he's a nice guy yes you know that comic nice guy yeah

00:54:25Guest:That's what happened.

00:54:29Guest:You're Diane Keaton's Woody Allen.

00:54:30Guest:She never fucks them, but she just likes them.

00:54:33Guest:Comedy treated me like that, yes.

00:54:35Marc:But it's interesting, though, because I chose to hold on to being just a comic because I never was able to work with other people until recently.

00:54:45Marc:But somehow or another, the smart guys who knew they were funny and they were good comics and knew that maybe there was a living to be made in the industry of comedy went into writing.

00:54:53Marc:You never did that either, did you?

00:54:55Guest:i tried i remember i auditioned for conan yes to write for conan i remember before before he got the show and before ray was on obviously yeah yeah way back and and i got louis ck was there i think right yeah he was yeah he told me submit some stuff and i submitted stuff yeah and then i went in and met with conan yeah in an office and we talked for half an hour yeah but i never got it yeah and you and

00:55:16Guest:And then what happened?

00:55:17Guest:Well, I was always like most people, most comics, where I thought, you know, if you go into writing, you're giving up.

00:55:21Guest:You know, that must be... Sure.

00:55:23Guest:You can't do, so you'll teach or whatever.

00:55:24Guest:Right.

00:55:26Guest:But then, I don't know, I got... First of all, I wasn't really a very good comic.

00:55:31Guest:Like, I was an okay comic for a really long time.

00:55:32Guest:And then the last couple of years...

00:55:34Guest:Because I started going to Luna and I started expanding.

00:55:36Guest:Like I was stuck at the cellar for so long.

00:55:38Guest:Alternative comedy and trying that out.

00:55:39Guest:Yeah, all that stuff.

00:55:40Guest:I finally just became someone I think in like – I mean I started on Raymond Wells in 99.

00:55:45Guest:And so like 97, 98, 99, I actually feel like, okay, I was actually doing something funny and also –

00:55:51Guest:being someone original for once.

00:55:54Guest:Basically, up until that point, I think I was just like, well, I'm getting laughs, and that's what I'm doing.

00:55:58Guest:You had hair then.

00:56:00Guest:Yeah, when the hair went away, I started to get real.

00:56:02Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:56:05Guest:But then I got... The Scars actually gave me a job on their MTV show, because they were doing all these alternative shows.

00:56:11Guest:They were so good to me.

00:56:12Guest:And the show was neither here... I mean, the show had a lot of problems, whatever.

00:56:15Guest:It got canceled.

00:56:16Guest:But just...

00:56:17Guest:writing it, it just felt like, oh, this is, I'm actually, I think I might be good at this.

00:56:22Guest:Yeah.

00:56:23Guest:And then I, yeah, you know.

00:56:25Guest:And we did the book.

00:56:26Guest:We did the book together.

00:56:28Guest:On the second year of Raymond, they offered me, you know, the whole, this is what they do, write a book, you know, the stand-up comic writes a book.

00:56:33Guest:Yeah.

00:56:34Guest:It was in the second year of Raymond.

00:56:35Guest:Mike was still in New York and I needed someone to help me write it.

00:56:38Guest:So I went to New York for a month or you came out here for a month.

00:56:41Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:56:42Guest:It was a couple months locked in his office.

00:56:45Guest:You know, our sensibilities were the same and his style of writing.

00:56:47Guest:We sat down for a month.

00:56:49Guest:We did it.

00:56:50Guest:And then that's when I really knew I like how Mike writes.

00:56:53Guest:Yeah.

00:56:54Guest:And then the following year.

00:56:55Guest:There's also in between there was Saturday Night Live, which was like the thrill of it.

00:57:00Guest:He did Saturday Night Live and then I wrote a sketch.

00:57:02Guest:I mean, you know.

00:57:02Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:57:02Guest:I hosted Saturday Night Live.

00:57:03Guest:So I took Mike and Phil and.

00:57:05Guest:And, yeah, Mike wrote the sketch, the first one.

00:57:08Guest:You know, they put the sketches on in order of how strong they are.

00:57:12Guest:Yeah.

00:57:12Guest:And we came in with a sketch.

00:57:13Guest:Mike's written a sketch.

00:57:14Guest:The SportsCenter one.

00:57:16Guest:There's a couple of cult fans out there.

00:57:17Guest:Right.

00:57:18Guest:There's people who... The SportsCenter sketch from SNL.

00:57:20Guest:There's a catchphrase that actually emerged from that.

00:57:22Guest:Sweet Sassy Molossi.

00:57:25Guest:But Mike wrote that.

00:57:26Guest:And then, so then the third year Raymond, I just...

00:57:29Guest:I kind of knew I had to earn my clout on Raymond, you know, because I was just the comic-turned-actor.

00:57:35Guest:So in the third year of Raymond, I said, I'm bringing a guy on, and then I brought Mike on, yeah, from the third year on, yeah.

00:57:40Guest:Yeah, and then the first year was I would just – I kind of knew I would really have to fuck up to get fired, like –

00:57:47Guest:But at the same time, I almost felt more guilty because I just felt like I don't want to be the guy who's just his friend sitting in a room because there's always those guys.

00:57:55Marc:It's interesting that the relationship developed because one thing I learned from Apatow, and that guy, how he had a semblance of this at such a young age.

00:58:03Marc:When he did comedy, he basically said, look, I knew when he was 23 that I'm never going to have a defined voice, that I'm not going to define myself.

00:58:11Guest:I related a lot to that.

00:58:13Marc:Yeah, as a comic.

00:58:14Marc:And then, of course, I'm thinking, am I defined?

00:58:17Marc:I think you've carved yourself pretty broad.

00:58:23Marc:But you were very defined.

00:58:25Guest:Apatow and I were on the young comedian special, HBO young comedian special.

00:58:30Marc:Was he defined?

00:58:32Guest:You know, I wasn't paying attention to him.

00:58:35Guest:He was on the same one as you?

00:58:36Guest:Yes.

00:58:36Guest:I thought he was on the – No, it was me, him, Janine Garofalo, Bill Bellamy, and I think Nick DiPaolo also.

00:58:43Guest:That sounds right.

00:58:44Guest:And Dana Carvey was the host.

00:58:45Guest:Right, right, right.

00:58:46Guest:It was like 18, 19 years ago.

00:58:48Marc:Now, to get back to the show, what kind of obstacles really are there now that you've had critical success, you've had one season, and TNT executives, they still are concerned about the time?

00:59:03Guest:We're not a rating success.

00:59:06Guest:We're fine, but we're not a juggernaut.

00:59:09Guest:But comparative on the network.

00:59:11Guest:Yes, The Closer is like the number one cable.

00:59:13Guest:They have two shows that kill.

00:59:15Guest:They have a show called The Closer with Keira Sedgwick, who she just won the Emmy for.

00:59:18Guest:And it's the number one scripted cable show, period, I think, right?

00:59:23Guest:Right, isn't it?

00:59:24Guest:Not just TNT.

00:59:25Guest:Yes, it's set records and, you know, big changes.

00:59:27Guest:So we're on after that.

00:59:28Guest:When we go on in December, they're going to put us on after that.

00:59:34Guest:But, you know, there's always...

00:59:36Guest:We're worried because we're going to have a great lead-in, and we're not going to appeal to the same audience as her.

00:59:42Marc:Yeah, but I didn't know what the hell the show was.

00:59:44Marc:And if you hadn't sent me the show, I don't watch much television.

00:59:47Marc:It's very under the radar.

00:59:48Marc:I don't know where anyone has time to do anything.

00:59:50Marc:But the way it's presented, it's interesting because what is the pitch?

00:59:56Marc:Because it's a very engaging, emotional show, and it's very satisfying.

01:00:00Marc:But it's not like these three guys are losing their minds.

01:00:03Guest:because they're older well that's the problem the problem is it's called men of a certain age it's rare and people a lot of people have that oh i gotta hear three guys talk about their dicks getting smaller or whatever that's kind of the perception or whatever yeah something happens to your dick but um but you know what's funny is the the wardrobe woman the wardrobe woman working on the show yeah

01:00:26Guest:She's been working on it for five months now.

01:00:29Guest:Yeah.

01:00:29Guest:She came over to me last week, and she goes, you know, I got four DVDs of last season.

01:00:35Guest:She wasn't on the first season.

01:00:36Guest:She wasn't on the first season.

01:00:37Guest:Yeah.

01:00:37Guest:So she's been on the show now for four months, five months.

01:00:40Guest:She goes, I've got four DVDs of your last season.

01:00:44Guest:I go, oh, good.

01:00:45Guest:She goes, yeah.

01:00:45Guest:She said, this is a good show.

01:00:47Guest:She had never watched the show.

01:00:49Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:00:49Guest:And she said.

01:00:50Guest:She's just putting clothes on these dicks going whatever.

01:00:52Guest:I guess that's a job.

01:00:52Guest:You're on a show.

01:00:53Guest:You're too busy working.

01:00:54Guest:Plus, it's men of a certain age.

01:00:55Guest:I didn't want to hear you guys' problems.

01:00:57Guest:But I watched it, and then I made my boyfriend watch it.

01:01:00Marc:My housemate, because that's where I'm at.

01:01:03Marc:I'm 47.

01:01:03Marc:I have a housemate.

01:01:05Guest:But I own the house.

01:01:08Guest:Don't bring Manfelotti in here.

01:01:09Guest:He'll make you feel better about yourself.

01:01:13Marc:Seriously.

01:01:13Marc:You should see his house.

01:01:15Marc:But she loves this thing.

01:01:16Marc:I mean, to her, it's like exactly what television should be.

01:01:19Guest:Oh, good.

01:01:19Marc:You know, I'm just saying that.

01:01:20Marc:I mean, I like the show, but I wanted to get a second set of eyes on that.

01:01:24Marc:Yeah.

01:01:25Marc:And she's trying to be a writer.

01:01:26Guest:So, I mean, that's – No, we've heard a lot of good feedback.

01:01:29Guest:And, I mean, you know, we've –

01:01:30Guest:When we put on, we finished all the shows before they went on the air.

01:01:34Guest:So there was never going to be some kind of mid-course correction, like fifth episode, like, oh, they don't like this, we'll change it.

01:01:39Guest:There was no choice to just film it all and then put it on.

01:01:43Guest:So we were very like, okay.

01:01:45Marc:Where are you now in the schedule here?

01:01:46Guest:Well, don't give any of this away.

01:01:47Guest:I'm not.

01:01:49Guest:We're halfway through almost.

01:01:51Marc:We're halfway through.

01:01:51Marc:Now, you know, I noticed that one thing.

01:01:53Guest:Hey, look at the first line on 206.

01:01:55Guest:That's going to be a fun one.

01:01:56Guest:Can you see that far?

01:01:57Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:01:59Marc:I'm not even going to say it.

01:02:00Marc:But, you know, it made me have a feeling.

01:02:03Guest:It gave you a tingle, right?

01:02:07Marc:Yeah.

01:02:07Marc:Now, the other thing that I think that is fairly noble about you, Ray, is you remain a pretty humble guy, and you're a very nice guy.

01:02:20Marc:And even when I saw you at a sushi restaurant many years ago, I walked in at Nozawa when you were on the lot, and I said, hello, and you were very nice.

01:02:28Marc:But, of course, I said, I can see power in his eyes.

01:02:32Marc:Yeah.

01:02:32Marc:But you're still a very sweet guy and a very human guy.

01:02:37Marc:And you take care of your fucking friends, and there's a lot to be said for that.

01:02:40Marc:I mean, the fact that, you know, I mean, you and Manfrilotti go way back, and he's a funny fucking guy.

01:02:45Guest:He's the bookie on the show.

01:02:46Marc:Right, and he's a great par for him.

01:02:48Marc:And, you know, in Kindler, there are guys that you use that you don't have to use.

01:02:53Marc:You know, a lot of guys are not good like that.

01:02:54Marc:They tell their friends, like, I wish I could help you.

01:02:57Marc:Yeah.

01:02:58Guest:Well, the problem is, but of course the problem is you can't help everybody.

01:03:01Guest:That's right.

01:03:01Guest:So there are still those guys out there.

01:03:03Marc:Right.

01:03:03Marc:No matter how much you help them.

01:03:04Guest:Well, that's what I was waiting to.

01:03:05Guest:You've got six more left.

01:03:08Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:03:09Marc:If you have any angry two-line parts for an intense Jew, an accountant, or a corrupt lawyer, anything, I'm looking at the board.

01:03:17Guest:We have that one that says, Buddy Holly gets mad.

01:03:20Guest:That's you.

01:03:22Guest:Thank God for writing me in.

01:03:24Marc:It's a thin story, to be honest with you.

01:03:29Marc:But you're aware of that.

01:03:30Guest:I mean, but in the sense that you and John... Well, we do that all the time now.

01:03:34Guest:It's like...

01:03:35Guest:We kind of said, listen, and I hate talking about money because I feel like a dick, but look, that's just the way it is.

01:03:44Guest:Financially, I don't need to do this show.

01:03:46Guest:So why am I doing it?

01:03:47Guest:Because the juice we get from just doing shit and creating stuff.

01:03:51Guest:Yeah.

01:03:52Guest:And, you know, I'm an actor, so I'm still, even though I'm insecure as all shit, you're still a narcissist.

01:03:59Guest:Yeah.

01:04:00Guest:Still, you know.

01:04:01Guest:Yeah.

01:04:02Guest:But also, I said, let's be able to throw bones to people.

01:04:05Guest:That's the cool thing, you know.

01:04:07Guest:Let's help you helping your friends out.

01:04:09Guest:Right.

01:04:09Guest:Helping my friends out.

01:04:10Guest:That's part of it.

01:04:11Guest:Yeah, I mean, acting-wise, there's, you know.

01:04:12Guest:But they're talented guys, too.

01:04:14Guest:No, we're not going to give just the quality of the show is always first.

01:04:18Guest:Yes, we'll never ever give somebody, oh, well, they'll fuck it up, but we'll do it anyway.

01:04:22Guest:Right, right.

01:04:23Marc:We'll just have money.

01:04:23Marc:He needs to get his insurance, and we'll cut the scene.

01:04:25Guest:No, but Manfrilotti, we only put on because he was right for the part.

01:04:29Guest:Well, we fucked up because we, I mean, it ended up being fine, but we wrote the part.

01:04:33Guest:We named the guy Manfrilotti before we cast John Manfrilotti.

01:04:37Guest:Right, right.

01:04:37Guest:So we had him in mind.

01:04:38Guest:Yeah.

01:04:39Guest:But we also said, well, he's still got to audition.

01:04:42Guest:He's still got to read.

01:04:43Guest:God forbid he doesn't get the part of Manfro.

01:04:45Guest:Of Manfro.

01:04:47Guest:Now he's 56 and he's going to – Yeah, he's 56 and he's living in a box right now.

01:04:51Marc:I'll tell you something about that character, though, that's great.

01:04:53Marc:I think this is the reason why the show is great again and the reason why television should be like this is that –

01:04:59Marc:You know, it humanizes everybody that, you know, the character of a bookie and your relationship with a bookie, the fact that you can't have him around the house, that you don't want to like him.

01:05:07Marc:And then the fact that he's completely self-aware of what he's doing and himself and that he's a pretty he's he's got a heart.

01:05:15Marc:Yes.

01:05:16Marc:Even though, you know, like I'll never forget it when when the drug dealer said to me, you got to get out of here.

01:05:22Marc:That character of Manfred Lottie – because everyone will judge these people and they'll judge anybody just based on a one-dimensional picture.

01:05:31Marc:He's a full character.

01:05:33Marc:He's a quirky character.

01:05:34Marc:He's got a heart and he does this horrible thing.

01:05:36Marc:And then all you guys are struggling with minor horrible things.

01:05:40Marc:You know, just to maintain your lives.

01:05:42Marc:And this guy lives on the other side of the track, so to speak.

01:05:45Guest:Yeah, he's still a pretty good person.

01:05:47Guest:Well, it's amazing because, again, for some reason the focus group is sticking in my head like it shouldn't.

01:05:51Guest:But even from the pilot, the women, one of the women said, I like that Manfro character.

01:05:58Guest:And I was kind of surprised to hear that.

01:06:00Guest:And she said, I just feel like he wouldn't let Joe go too far.

01:06:04Guest:Yeah.

01:06:04Guest:Really?

01:06:05Guest:You're getting that just from the little... And does he?

01:06:08Guest:Yeah.

01:06:09Guest:Does he let you go too far?

01:06:10Marc:We have some interesting stuff happening.

01:06:12Guest:This season, Manfro's got some good stuff.

01:06:14Guest:All right.

01:06:15Marc:Well, you know, fellas, I think that I'm proud of you.

01:06:19Guest:Do you edit this?

01:06:20Marc:Does it just go on like it is, or do you edit it?

01:06:22Marc:No, no.

01:06:22Marc:We'll do a little editing.

01:06:23Marc:You have a concern?

01:06:24Guest:Cut out all of the boring stuff I said, right?

01:06:27Guest:Yeah, pretty much.

01:06:28Guest:So it's just Mike.

01:06:29Guest:So you're here with Mike Royce.

01:06:30Marc:So it's four seconds with Mike Royce.

01:06:31Marc:Probably buffer it.

01:06:32Marc:I'll do a second interview.

01:06:34Guest:All middle for somebody else.

01:06:35Marc:I was hoping you could host.

01:06:39Marc:But you're doing great work, and best of luck on the new season.

01:06:43Marc:And the DVDs come out in November.

01:06:45Marc:And I never use this show to plug, but you guys are your old friends, and I do love the show.

01:06:50Guest:Thank you.

01:06:51Guest:Appreciate it, man.

01:06:51Guest:You're not bullshitting, I can tell.

01:06:53Guest:I'm not.

01:06:53Guest:I don't bullshit well.

01:06:55Guest:Thanks, guys.

01:06:55Guest:Thanks, man.

01:06:56Guest:You bet.

01:06:56Marc:Thank you.

01:07:01Marc:I had an amazing time talking to Ray and Mike, and I've got to be honest with you, folks.

01:07:05Marc:Those two guys are two of the nicest guys I've ever met in show business.

01:07:09Marc:Honestly.

01:07:10Marc:Just, I mean, funny, nice guys.

01:07:13Marc:Ray is hilarious and sweet, and Mike has always been nothing but a gentleman, and I couldn't be happier for the success with this show.

01:07:20Marc:It is really a good show, and I watched every one of them.

01:07:23Marc:But that aside, thank you for listening.

01:07:26Marc:I hope you are getting my emails.

01:07:28Marc:If you go to WTFPod.com, you can get on the email list.

01:07:31Marc:You can see where I'm playing.

01:07:33Marc:You can buy some merch.

01:07:34Marc:We've got a couple of new t-shirts there.

01:07:35Marc:You can go to WTFPodShop.com.

01:07:38Marc:We're going to have a new episode up soon with Dave Attell and some people.

01:07:41Marc:There's a few episodes up there for purchase now.

01:07:44Marc:Please donate to the show.

01:07:45Marc:We do run on your generosity.

01:07:47Marc:Go to PunchlineMagazine.com for all of your up-to-date comedy news needs.

01:07:52Marc:And please check out

01:07:53Marc:StandUpRecords.com, my old record label, and Dan Twissel over there does a great job.

01:07:58Marc:He's got a lot of great artists on that.

01:07:59Marc:Now, some upcoming club dates, if I could.

01:08:02Marc:Wednesday, October 15th, live at WTF at the UCB Theater here in Los Angeles with the amazing Charles Fleischer.

01:08:10Marc:The voice of Roger Rabbit, one of the original wizards of weirdness in the comedy situation in modern times.

01:08:16Marc:Brendan Burns will be there.

01:08:19Marc:Erin Foley will also be there.

01:08:21Marc:She was in Almost Famous with me.

01:08:23Marc:And Jim Earl is going to join us as well.

01:08:25Marc:That'll be a great time.

01:08:26Marc:Now, the 20th of October, that's a Wednesday in New York City, at Comics, we're going to have a couple of really big shows.

01:08:33Marc:That's just a tease.

01:08:34Marc:Let me tell you about Texas.

01:08:35Marc:October 18th at the Parish in Austin.

01:08:38Marc:I will be there with a live What the Fuck crew.

01:08:40Marc:Come down.

01:08:42Marc:October 19th at Trees in Dallas.

01:08:44Marc:Another live What the Fuck performance.

01:08:46Marc:Please, if you can, come down.

01:08:48Marc:Now, October 20th, two live WTF shows in New York City at Comics.

01:08:53Marc:Show number one, 730, Sam Seder, Kristen Schaal, John Glazer, and perhaps John Benjamin.

01:09:00Marc:That's right.

01:09:01Marc:That's a hell of a show.

01:09:01Marc:9.30.

01:09:03Marc:Mike DiStefano, Rich Voss, Bonnie McFarlane, Dan St.

01:09:07Marc:Germain, and hold on to your seats, Louis Black will be at the 9.30 show on October 20th at Comics in New York.

01:09:15Marc:Thank you so much for listening.

01:09:17Marc:I really do appreciate it.

01:09:18Marc:And also, I love doing this.

01:09:21Marc:I fucking love doing this.