Episode 1129 - Jerry Seinfeld
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks out in the streets what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf how's it going
Marc:Are you okay, man?
Marc:I mean, you know, I know some people are worried about me, worried about the world, but how are you there looking out your window, doing your dishes, getting all emotional for unclear reasons?
Marc:How are you doing sitting there trying to work with your house that has become some sort of strange place
Marc:kindergarten for your own children how are you doing sitting alone wondering is it ever going to be okay is it ever going to be okay again is this just the way it is am i going to work is what i do relevant anymore how are you how's it going so look on today's show i talked to jerry seinfeld
Marc:I talked to him.
Marc:I'll get into that a little more in a minute.
Marc:Let's just get in, check in with the immediate situation with what's happening.
Marc:I'm hoping this week maybe I'll get out to be present at some protests for all the right reasons.
Marc:I haven't been able to get out there for my own personal reasons, but I feel like I may go out this week.
Marc:I don't think it's too late.
Marc:I'd like to feel part of the community speaking out.
Marc:I want to be part of that.
Marc:I also want to, again, direct people to a few places where they can donate some money if you're feeling...
Marc:powerless or you're afraid or unable to go outdoors or if there's not a protest near you and you don't want to be the only one standing on your street with a sign drawing attention to yourself in that way there's things other ways you can help out if you have a few extra bucks you can go to black voters matter fund
Marc:They work directly and successfully on increasing the political power of black communities through voter registration and engagement on the local level, not just during presidential elections.
Marc:That's blackvotersmatterfund.org.
Marc:The NAACP, always a good place to help out.
Marc:That's the NAACP Legal Defense Fund.
Marc:Police reform and racial justice efforts need litigation and advocacy to be successful.
Marc:The NAACPLDF.org.
Marc:And of course, the ACLU, always continuing to be helpful for maintaining the First Amendment rights of protesters and fighting legal challenges in court.
Marc:That's ACLU.org.
Marc:Be safe out there.
Marc:Be righteous.
Marc:Fight the good fight.
Marc:Hopefully, if everything works out this week, I'll be talking to Stacey Abrams on Thursday, if everything works out.
Marc:She's been busy.
Marc:Hopefully, that'll happen.
Marc:So, Jerry Seinfeld.
Marc:Okay.
Okay.
Marc:The thing with Jerry is a lot of you know, like, why is it taking so long for Jerry to come on?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:And the weird thing about this interview is that if you're just new to this show or just the last few years, this was the comedy podcast.
Marc:It was a comedy podcast.
Marc:I mean, that's what I did.
Marc:I talked to comedians for years.
Marc:And we put together a fairly...
Marc:kind of deep and broad historical archive of comics going way back.
Marc:I mean, I talked to, you know, Shelley Berman.
Marc:I talked to Jonathan Winters.
Marc:I talked to Marty Allen for fuck's sake.
Marc:But I mean, the thing is, is this was a place where comedians came to talk about their real life, their hearts and whatnot.
Marc:Hash stuff out because I love comedians.
Marc:I am a comedian.
Marc:That is my heart.
Marc:That is my life.
Marc:And I believe that's true about Jerry.
Marc:But he was never one of my guys.
Marc:Never was.
Marc:Couldn't connect.
Marc:I could not connect with Jerry.
Marc:But the thing about the reason I'm making a point on this on this particular show to talk about this is like, you know, comedian like even someone like Judd Apatow thought this show when when WTF really started picking up speed, he said it was like his Nirvana.
Marc:And, you know, we were the show that he brought the interviews that he did when he was in high school with comics that came to the comedy club that his mother worked at, you know, and sort of go through that stuff.
Marc:This is where it happened.
Marc:And over time, you know, there were white whales.
Marc:There were people that, you know, I wanted to get that kind of fit into the history of comedy as I knew it.
Marc:Took a long time to get Letterman.
Marc:It took years to get Lorne Michaels.
Marc:And I had a personal obsession with that.
Marc:But they come.
Marc:If you go look at the back catalog, there's a lot of comics you may never heard of.
Marc:There's a lot of comics that you hadn't heard of then but are big now.
Marc:But this was where comedy was discussed and this is where it happened.
Marc:Albert Brooks still hasn't come on.
Marc:But one thing I've learned from doing this show as long as I've done it, you know, comedy every you know, there are well adjusted comedians.
Marc:There are comedians that I don't think are funny that people love.
Marc:There are comedians that do things that I don't agree with, but I understand and sometimes still think are funny.
Marc:There are comedians that don't show themselves at all in their act.
Marc:That's rare.
Marc:It's usually there somewhere, but it's not necessarily they don't think they are.
Marc:But for me, comedy as a stage, when I was young, it was the only thing that made sense to me.
Marc:It was the only thing when I watched it.
Marc:I thought these guys make sense of stuff.
Marc:These guys make it OK.
Marc:These guys take big ideas, things that are frightening, overwhelming, seemingly complicated and
Marc:You know, confusing and they kind of render it down into something funny.
Marc:For me, it was I got into it for the pursuit of of a certain personal truth of a way to be seen as a way to express myself.
Marc:And I tried a lot of different stuff, man, when I was in high school and college, photography, journalism, acting, film studies, all this stuff.
Marc:But from when I was 11 or 12 years old, in my heart, it was like comics, art, that's the noble profession.
Marc:That's how you become a statesman of yourself.
Marc:That's how you find your place in the world.
Marc:That's how you share the truth as you see it.
Marc:That's how you become who you are.
Marc:It's deep, man.
Marc:It's not for fucking lightweights or amateurs.
Marc:It's all in there.
Marc:Philosophy, psychology, history, everything.
Marc:Emotional truth.
Marc:It's all in there.
Marc:It's what comedy is to me.
Marc:It's all of it.
Marc:You can get on a stage and do whatever the fuck you want as long as it's funny.
Marc:Now, I agree with that.
Marc:And I just said it.
Marc:So that's good.
Marc:But what is funny, right?
Marc:And what does it mean to be funny?
Marc:I've talked about it with a lot of people, not necessarily so specifically as I talk about it with Jerry.
Marc:There's no doubt that he's one of the most popular comics ever, and no doubt he's probably the richest comic ever.
Marc:But how come I never connected with him?
Marc:You know?
Marc:How come?
Marc:I imagine there's other people out there that didn't.
Marc:Like I truly respect and understand and have a sort of deep well of empathy and love for my fellow comedians, without a doubt.
Marc:And I judge and I resent and I'm critical sometimes and I dislike sometimes.
Marc:But the core of it is this is a community of rogues.
Marc:and socially awkward weirdos and hustlers, some borderline criminals, true artists, poets, people who are possessed by something that only they understand and have to make it understandable to others.
Marc:It's not just a shtick, man.
Marc:It's not just a job.
Marc:Not for me.
Marc:And not for the people I respect.
Marc:It's a necessity and it's a channel of truth that can run very deep.
Marc:But there was something that I needed.
Marc:I got to get into it.
Marc:You know, I got to get into it with Jerry.
Marc:He wanted to come on and I swear to God, I was like, are you really, are you sure?
Marc:Maybe it was because it's easier now because he doesn't have to come here.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:And I'm not sure I know after I talked to him.
Marc:But now he's part of it.
Marc:Now he's part of the great WTF tapestry that I'm weaving of the history of comedy.
Marc:And he's an important part.
Marc:And I don't think there's an interview like this with him.
Marc:I can I can tell you that.
Marc:And he's got a new stand-up special called 23 Hours to Kill.
Marc:It's streaming on Netflix right now.
Marc:I watched it.
Marc:And I watched that old documentary Comedian for the first time, which I found difficult.
Marc:And also, I think it's important to note that this is the first interview I did since Lynn's passing.
Marc:We didn't know really how or who to do that with.
Marc:I mean, there was an idea around with me and Brendan McDonald that maybe I should talk to somebody I knew and
Marc:And I think I vetoed that in light of the fact that it seems that when I talk to people I know, even not that well, I get pretty emotional.
Marc:And I kept it together for the most part.
Marc:So buckle up.
Marc:Because now I'm driving.
Marc:And this is me and Jerry Seinfeld coming right up in just a few minutes.
Guest:Hey, Mark.
Guest:Hi, Jerry.
Guest:How are you?
Guest:I'm okay.
Guest:Please accept my condolences.
Guest:That's very nice of you.
Guest:For your loss.
Guest:I'm so sorry.
Guest:yeah it's a rough thing i imagine i can't imagine yeah yeah how you doing what do you think terrible we you know and i'm so sorry because i know we were both very much looking forward to finally doing this yeah and of course we managed to stumble into the least relevant moment
Guest:For our art form.
Marc:Wait, what do you mean?
Marc:You're not working on a riot chunk?
Guest:I am.
Guest:I am, but I'm not going to do it now.
Marc:You going to give it a little space?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Wait a little while?
Guest:Yeah, we'll give it a little, let it simmer.
Marc:So you're down.
Marc:Where are you on?
Marc:You're on Long Island.
Guest:I'm on Long Island.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:One of the Hamptons.
Marc:And you got you got all your kids with you and the wife is there and everybody's there.
Marc:And I assume the house is big enough to where you can hide.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I don't like to hide, though.
Guest:I like the mosh pit.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I like the mosh pit, yeah.
Guest:You know, I got married so late in life.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was 45, so it was really time to have a complete change of context.
Yeah.
Marc:A full immersion.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We need us.
Guest:We need that hole.
Guest:You got to go in that hole.
Guest:You know, the comedy hole.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But, you know, stand up is so wonderfully solitary.
Guest:The writing of it and the performing and the traveling, the solitariness.
Guest:I do miss that a little bit.
Marc:Well, I mean, you know what's weird is that for whatever reason, I never watched Comedian, the documentary.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I was hanging around the cellar at that time.
Marc:And I remember, who were those camera guys?
Marc:Were they Dutch?
Marc:What were they, German?
Guest:No, one guy was a Brit and one American guy.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:But, man, I watched it last night for the first time.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:And it was traumatizing.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:OK, I mean, I you know, I really there was like I could not handle the Orny Adams factor.
Marc:I mean, I thought that maybe 20 years would make that easier, but it was.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I mean, I haven't seen it in 20 years and I certainly would never go back to it.
Guest:So that's very interesting to hear that.
Marc:It doesn't it doesn't age well.
Marc:I wouldn't say there are parts of it that I think, you know, they I would say that the Cosby closer is not a great a great that doesn't hold up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, you know, I you can look at that one of two ways, as you know.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But the thing I loved about Orny when because I really was not thinking that he was going to be much a part of the show when we first started.
Marc:started to cut it but i felt like he was the visible comic i felt like he had a transparency that i really liked right you could see right into the horrible whatever it was i i it his his uh i don't even know what you would call it but there's definitely a point in that movie i'm not we don't need to go over the whole film but there seemed to be a point in that movie where you were like this guy is too much this is
Marc:I can't.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I mean, all comedians to me have major issues, you know?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I love to grapple with all of those issues.
Guest:I love all of it.
Marc:In other people?
Marc:Or yourself?
Marc:In myself.
Guest:And I just, I love the world.
Guest:I love the... Right?
Guest:I have a book coming out in October and I wrote a lot of, you know, reflective stuff about comedy.
Guest:And to me, comedy was two things.
Guest:It was...
Guest:being in the art of comedy and then being in the world of comedy.
Guest:And you don't know when you start, you're attracted to comedy because of the substance.
Guest:But then you go in and then you find out, oh, there's a world.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:The world.
Marc:It's a weird world of rogues and gypsies.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I fell instantly in love with the world.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Those two things.
Marc:Well, yeah, the whole world, you know, there's something about all of us that fundamentally doesn't fit into regular culture or society.
Marc:And yet when we all get together and that's sort of an understood thing, there's a brotherhood to it that's very forgiving and accepting and
Marc:I mean, you've been in it.
Marc:You know a lot of the guys that I know and the guys you come up with.
Marc:I mean, you're dealing with borderline criminals and mental cases.
Marc:I mean, it's just the way we are.
Guest:If you're lucky, you're lucky.
Marc:Because I don't know what spurred you to it, but when I was a kid, I was very much a Jackie Vernon fan.
Marc:Oh, I love Jackie Vernon.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:My parents took me to see him when I was like 11 in a nightclub.
Marc:And we were sitting very close in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:The Hilton Hotel had a nightclub.
Marc:And he came out, and we're sitting very close so I could see his sweat and his fat.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But like it's something, you know, planted inside of me like, you know, this is the world.
Marc:I want to be in the world where this guy lives.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Well, that's why I set up this little tableau here of my I set this up because I've been doing interviews.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I thought, oh, yeah, what do I want behind me?
Guest:So these albums that I've saved all these years.
Guest:of, you know, all the people that got me crazy.
Guest:But now that you mentioned it, I've got to get a Jackie Vernon album.
Guest:I need a Jackie.
Marc:I haven't seen a Jackie Vernon album.
Marc:There must be one.
Guest:There must be.
Guest:There must be.
Marc:Do you have that old, do you have that one album?
Marc:I found a Rodney Dangerfield album before he was doing the No Respect thing called Loser.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:You have that?
Guest:No, that's cool.
Marc:You got to get that record.
Marc:It's like, I don't know where I found it.
Marc:It was signed too.
Marc:So it was like, he was still doing like long form story type of bits.
Marc:None of the, none before the hook.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's kind of great.
Marc:I can see you got, you got Lenny's Carnegie, you got Groucho, you got a later, later Carlin record.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I can't, I, it's sort of Alan Sherman and prior and, uh,
Guest:monty python oh and now and robert klein yeah those were you i mean who how long back how far back do you remember being uh moved by comedy when was the when was the moment i i suppose when laughing came out which i guess was 67 or 8. yeah that was a show of just all jokes it was all jokes
Guest:And that got me so vibrating.
Guest:Very funny to look back on your childhood now and see you were headed down this path instantly and had no idea.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was writing the copying the jokes from laughing so I could refer to them in conversation the next day.
Guest:I love this one and I like that one.
Guest:And, you know.
Marc:So and also that sort of gave you a sense of structure, the joke structure.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:So it was a laughing.
Marc:I mean, how old were you when laughing was on?
Marc:I mean, I guess I was five.
Guest:So you were like, I was like 13, 12.
Marc:And that's when it registered.
Marc:That's when you realized that people, I didn't realize it then.
Guest:I just, I knew, I mean, you liked it more into this than everybody else, but I didn't know that that was going to take me somewhere.
Marc:And was it was was there comedy in the house?
Marc:Were your parents hilarious?
Marc:I mean, did you were the record?
Guest:Dad was crazy, crazily funny guy.
Guest:Really?
Guest:When he was in World War Two and in the Pacific, he had a file of jokes that he would carry with him because, you know, the army in those days.
Guest:jokes were a big part of their conversation.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:For all the obvious reasons.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And he would save them.
Guest:So that is a pretty clear genetic link that, you know, again, not just remembering them, writing them down.
Marc:He would write down jokes that other guys would tell him.
Guest:Yeah, joke jokes.
Guest:You know, that was the currency, joke jokes.
Marc:That kept him going.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Marc:And he was, what was he in the Air Force, the Navy?
Marc:What was he in?
Guest:army regular gi yeah beans and uh um you know all the pacific did he see uh did he see action yeah oh yeah yeah did he talk about it all the time really yeah guys who are in the army well your father was not done in the war
Marc:Well, no, my dad was in the Air Force for two years, but it was like in the late 60s and he entered as he was getting his residency as a surgeon.
Marc:So they didn't send him to Vietnam.
Marc:We were in Alaska for two years.
Marc:So.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that I know my dad and his uncle and uncles that I had that were in the army loved it so much.
Guest:They never stopped talking about it.
Marc:really because i mean you know in that way of it's such a uh you know what what's more impactful bonding yeah you've been in a war so but he like because i i thought they were like i've heard of guys who who uh you know who who was so awful they they they never talked about the the horrors of the thing but he sort of found camaraderie i guess and you know he had guys that were in the war with him that he hung out with huh
Guest:Yeah, well, I mean, you know, I think he was kind of just drifting in life.
Guest:They were very young, you know.
Guest:I don't know what age he was.
Guest:Teenager.
Guest:And then all of a sudden, you're around all these guys.
Guest:You're all in the same clothes, you know.
Guest:And you've all got the same things in your footlocker, you know.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Guest:Like camp.
Guest:That was camp.
Marc:A horrible camp.
Guest:A horrible camp, yeah.
Marc:you're getting shot at yeah yeah yeah that's it here's how you pack your locker and this is how you avoid dying yeah say and then like uh so where'd he grew up in new york that guy yeah brooklyn bronx manhattan like where his parents from uh like the old country kind of yeah austria oh yeah austria i think one of mine's uh i think my grandfather's family was austrian but that other than that it's all russia the jew thing right and
Marc:Do you remember your grandparents?
Marc:Was it a Jewish thing?
Marc:No, no grandparents.
Marc:None?
Guest:But my parents were both orphans.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're not joking?
Guest:No.
Guest:What's the joke?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It's definitely a conversation stopper.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Orphans.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Like from a young age or later?
Marc:From a young age, yes.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's interesting.
Guest:So they met pretty late in life.
Guest:In those days, to get married in your 40s was pretty late.
Guest:And they met at a wedding there with other people.
Guest:And of course, immediately hit her off that they were both orphans.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's wild.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So have you ever tried to track that?
Marc:Did you ever do like a 23andMe thing?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I'm really not that interested.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But the independence that you can imagine that they had certainly came right into me.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Be on your own.
Guest:Be good on your own.
Marc:And you've got, you have siblings?
Guest:Yeah, I have an older sister, Carol.
Marc:Older sister?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And she's in show business?
Guest:Yes, she works with me.
Marc:Oh, that's good.
Marc:So now like you're growing up out there where you're on Long Island or Queens or whatever?
Guest:Long Island, Massapequa, Long Island.
Marc:And your dad, like he comes back from the service.
Marc:What business is he in?
Marc:What's his racket?
Guest:He he couldn't function in any sort of corporate environment or even a company.
Guest:He couldn't work for anybody, you know, because he couldn't do what people told him to do.
Marc:That's genetic, too, then, I guess.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yes, very much.
Guest:So he loved when I got into stand up.
Guest:He thought that I wish I had done that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But so he had he started a sign business selling signs.
Guest:And so he got found a guy to paint them and then started selling them and
Guest:And he could just drive around on his own.
Guest:So he loved that.
Marc:General signage?
Marc:General signage, yes.
Guest:Storefront, cards, paper signs, you know, all those butcher shops, Prime Rib, $1.19 pound, you know, all that stuff.
Marc:So you could drive through Queens and go like, that's my dad's sign.
Guest:Yep.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:And your mom, did your mom work?
Guest:My mom was a bookkeeper for a while, but mostly a housewife.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:So like, how Jewish did you grow up?
Guest:My mother's side, heavy, orthodox.
Guest:And my dad's side, nothing.
Marc:So your mom had siblings who were orthodox?
Guest:Many siblings, yes.
Guest:And when we went to that side in Brooklyn, it was scary.
Guest:It was dark and it was scary.
Marc:Funny smelling kitchens.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I love the food.
Guest:Syrian.
Marc:Oh, Syrian Jews.
Guest:My dad is Austrian.
Guest:My mom is Syrian.
Marc:Interesting.
Guest:So that, that, that was a good, uh, um, X. Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I had some, someone just because of, uh, you know, the, what happened, people have been sending me food and someone just sent me a box of, uh, Katz's, you know, deli.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:They sent chicken soup with the matzo balls.
Marc:And you know, there's something about that stuff when you, does your wife cook like, do you get food like that now?
Marc:No, no.
Guest:My wife cooks a lot, but not that.
Marc:She does.
Marc:Doesn't she do cookbooks or something?
Marc:Yes, she does.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She mostly does a good plus, which is this fatherhood initiative foundation.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which is very relevant in this moment.
Guest:And they were doing a lot with the pandemic and people out on Long Island.
Guest:And but very involved in homes where there's no father figure.
Guest:oh that's nice and teaching those guys to get back in there and and learn how to do that oh really yeah if they didn't have any role models of their own right she's done an incredible building this uh entire program and did she help tremendous success with it it's really been great well that's great did she did she help you become a good father oh yeah
Marc:Did it did not come natural to you or did it?
Guest:No.
Guest:The fun parts do, but not the real parts.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You know, making kids laugh.
Guest:That's what we like to do.
Guest:The kid laugh is the greatest laugh.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But that's it.
Marc:That's where it ends.
Marc:The rest you had to learn.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So when you start.
Guest:doing comedy when did you realize like who were the guys that were your sort of your role models outside of laughing I know you talk about well it was Klein when I was a kid if you lived in New York in the late 60s early 70s and you saw Robert Klein yeah that was like a uh uh
Guest:getting hit with a Klieg light.
Marc:He was before my time, I guess, because he was never one of my guys.
Marc:I didn't have those records, and I should have had those records because I had other records.
Marc:I've grown to appreciate him, but he was the guy that really put it in your mind you could do it.
Guest:Well, yeah, I followed him everywhere.
Guest:Whenever he was working, I was there to see it.
Marc:When you were a teenager?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:And I went to the Catskills and I saw those guys.
Guest:But Klein was like, oh, there's another way.
Guest:There's this way.
Guest:If you grew up in New York, you could have a New York attitude, but no cufflinks and ruffled shirts.
Right.
Marc:You'd go up to the Catskills with your folks or what?
Guest:Yeah, with my folks.
Guest:And I even went as a teenager with my Queens College buddies.
Guest:And we just we would go see John Beiner or anybody like that.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, who else did you see up there at that time?
Guest:Oh, well, it was Malsey Lawrence.
Guest:We love the old guys.
Guest:We love all of them.
Guest:I still love all of them.
Guest:I have I am very nonjudgmental.
Guest:of uh comedic style yeah um i i could to give it a you know an accessible example george carlin am and fm no difference for me right no difference yeah i love both of them equally yeah but but you do have don't you feel like you do have um
Marc:I think you have a work ethic that is sort of daunting.
Marc:And do you judge comics by their work ethic?
Guest:No.
Marc:No?
Guest:No, I judge them by the elegance of their structure.
Marc:So when did you start, like when you watched Klein?
Marc:Did you meet Klein when you were a teenager?
Guest:No.
Guest:No, I was working a number of years.
Guest:We finally met.
Marc:So when you started doing it, you started at the strip.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Catch a Rising Star was the very first place I went.
Guest:And then we couldn't get on stage there.
Guest:And then the strip opened up and we were able to get on stage.
Marc:what what year was so 70 what 75 76 was when catch opened catch opened 73 i think the improv i think 66 yeah the improv was they did a variety show for yeah for type of thing so you're like sort of the second wave so like yeah second wave right so like richard lewis and those guys are above you you're the one after them so you're all larry
Guest:David Brenner Bob Shaw saw me once at the old improv before it closed and he said that's funny stuff I'll let you know how it works one of the most powerful comics I've ever seen still Bob Shaw Bob Shaw
Guest:And his moment was a brutally funny guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He would tear the wallpaper off the catch.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh gosh.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I think he's still around.
Marc:I mean, he was writing for a while.
Guest:He wrote for us on the series for a couple of years.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah, because he was a very good friend of Larry David's.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then Uncle Dirty was hanging around.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Bobby Altman.
Marc:Bob Altman.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And yeah, I mean, so you couldn't get on a catch originally.
Marc:What was the way?
Marc:How did it work back then?
Marc:Was Lucien at the strip yet?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Lucian was there, yes.
Guest:But I was there very early.
Guest:They opened in June.
Guest:I got in there in July, and I was emceeing by December of that year.
Guest:I had only been in the business for real like four months, and they made me an emcee, which was $25 a night, and I got three nights, and that was it.
Guest:I turned in my waiter's apron, and that was it.
Marc:You were a waiter?
Marc:You were a waiter before?
Guest:I was a waiter at Brew Burger on 3rd and 47th from 10 a.m.
Guest:to 2 p.m.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Every day.
Guest:And that was good for about $16, $17 a day.
Guest:I was living on that.
Marc:But you weren't living in the city?
Marc:You were still at home?
Guest:I was living in the city, yeah, on 81st and Columbus.
Marc:In like a box?
Guest:Yeah, in a box.
Marc:Just by yourself, though?
Guest:By myself.
Guest:17 feet square box.
Yeah.
Marc:And how old are you, like, what are you, 20 then?
Marc:21.
Marc:And your folks are okay with it?
Marc:They're excited?
Marc:You're living in the city?
Guest:Didn't seem very interested.
Marc:No?
Guest:The benign neglect that my parents gave me was the greatest blessing of my life.
Marc:When did that start?
Guest:Day one.
Guest:Yeah, your life will live ours.
Guest:Good luck.
Guest:My father did love what I was doing.
Guest:He loved it.
Marc:From the beginning?
Guest:From the beginning, yeah, because of the complete independence of it.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Don't go where everybody else goes.
Guest:Do your own thing.
Marc:So he never pressured you?
Marc:Oh, no.
Marc:Nothing?
Marc:No.
Marc:Interesting.
Marc:Yeah, because there was no concern even.
Marc:He was just happy for you.
Guest:My mother confessed years later.
Guest:They were a little concerned, but they never said anything to me.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Imagine I'm 45 when my mother first brings up, have you ever thought of getting married?
Marc:That's when it first comes up?
Guest:That's when it first began, yes.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:And she's still around, right?
Guest:No, my mom passed about five years ago at 99.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, see, so she saw you got married.
Marc:She saw grandkids.
Marc:She got all the good things.
Guest:Yes, yes, yes.
Marc:So who's it?
Marc:Like when you get to when you get to the strip.
Marc:So you're like one of the first guys there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what was the name of the guy that owned that place?
Guest:There were three guys, Richie Tinkin, John McGowan and Bob Wax.
Marc:And Lucian was just the guy who worked there.
Guest:He was a carpenter designed to build cabinets to hold the T-shirts.
Marc:That's what Lucian did.
Guest:That's what Lucian did.
Guest:And then they kind of made him a manager.
Marc:And then he stayed there forever.
Guest:Yeah, forever to the end.
Marc:So this was a great thing for you because so the Catch a Rising Star had this what a bigger roster, more famous.
Guest:That was a closed society.
Guest:You weren't right in there.
Guest:I was never going to break into that.
Guest:First of all, I wasn't cool enough.
Guest:I wasn't druggy enough.
Guest:I wasn't, I wasn't that kind of, you know, that I was never getting in with those guys.
Marc:Who was there though?
Marc:Who are you talking about?
Guest:It was Kelly Rogers, David Say, obviously Belzer.
Guest:Belzer was the, the, the guy, the guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He was the host, the MC.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But Rick Newman was a great guy.
Guest:Always very nice to me.
Guest:I, I,
Guest:The romance of Catch a Rising Star was something I still, when I talked to Rock and Quinn and Joyner and guys who were there, George Wallace, still waxing about the romance of Catch a Rising Star.
Guest:There was nothing like it.
Guest:So exciting.
Guest:Had you ever been there?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I mean, he, you know, Lewis, they, I, when I started doing standup in New York, it was a 89 and the old catch was still there.
Marc:And, you know, I just, I was too, I didn't have the, I was too proud to sit around and wait at the bar for him to decide when to put me on, you know, when everybody left.
Marc:So I kind of focused on the,
Marc:The old improv and, you know, the down like Boston Comedy Club and wherever I could get work.
Marc:But I had a real problem with Veranda for years because I just felt mistreated and I didn't want to play by his rules.
Marc:But I'd go up there.
Marc:But I don't think I really I don't think I was ever there to feel the vibe of it when it was great.
Guest:Yeah, it was great in the 70s.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And the early 80s.
Marc:But you definitely felt that these guys were like, you know, it was a different way of life than what you wanted to do.
Marc:Too many drugs, just rock and roll.
Guest:I didn't really know about the drugs, but I just knew I was not their kind of guy.
Guest:You know, I always had I always had notes in my hand.
Guest:oh so you were sort of a nerd oh yeah total nerd yeah really and uh yeah and obsessed with my act i was obsessed with my act and my stuff they were able they didn't work on their acts why what you know were you able so you were were you incapable of socializing incapable
Guest:That's the secret of my success.
Marc:You got three people you can talk to and that's it.
Guest:That's it.
Marc:You don't need any more.
Guest:I didn't even know when I was in high school that there were parties I was not invited to.
Marc:So you were you were completely obsessed and introverted and just uncomfortable.
Guest:No, totally comfortable.
Guest:I didn't know I was missing out on anything.
Guest:Really?
Guest:No, I did not.
Guest:I knew there was something going on underneath girls' sweaters.
Guest:That was it.
Marc:Of course, yeah.
Guest:And that's what I was interested in.
Guest:And as far as the other social world of it, it didn't appeal to me.
Guest:I didn't like the scapegoating, the hostility, the elitism.
Guest:I just knew I am not going to navigate any of this.
Guest:I didn't like it.
Guest:I didn't care for it.
Guest:I was very happy to just watch TV.
Marc:Be your own guy and not get involved.
Guest:I just want to watch TV.
Guest:I want to watch Batman.
Marc:But it's sort of interesting to me that given that's true and even when you started and you saw that sort of tone at catch, like I could see like a guy like you comes in, you're a young guy, you're working really hard and you got these guys that are boozing it up and
Marc:Right.
Marc:Fucking off over there and living that life.
Marc:You know, Studio 54 is happening.
Marc:Elaine's all that shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you're just like, you know, I want to do this.
Marc:But somehow or another at the strip, you were able to find and appreciate some brotherhood eventually.
Guest:Well, that's where it started for us because we were all new all together.
Guest:We were all at the starting line together.
Guest:Right.
Guest:We naturally bond.
Guest:Then it was me and Larry Miller.
Guest:All day, every day, all night, George Wallace, Mark Schiff, Paul Reiser, Carol Liefer, all day, every day.
Marc:Was Wolfberg your generation?
Guest:Wolfberg, yeah, he was a generation after me.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And yeah, because Schiff, I've talked to Schiff, I've talked to Liefer, I've talked to a lot of them.
Marc:There are so many dudes that like, because I've seen you talk about in other places where, and I think it's a fairly, I think it's astute and it's real that, you know, we start out with all these people and you don't know what the hell happens to everybody.
Marc:No, you don't.
Guest:But I'm sure you're on Facebook.
Guest:I'm not.
Guest:Can't you find me on Facebook?
Marc:Oh, you're not?
Marc:No, I can't stand it.
Marc:I don't understand.
Marc:There's too much going on on Facebook.
Guest:Isn't that how you find out what happens to people?
Marc:Sometimes.
Marc:I mean, sometimes they just call you.
Marc:I was surprised, you know, with my girlfriend passing, how many people reached out.
Marc:I mean, I heard from, you know, Dan Vitale called me.
Marc:Wow, Dan Vitale.
Marc:yeah right and he's like he's all right you know then out of nowhere Leno calls me it's a very beautiful thing that's happened in light of that our entire community reached out I couldn't believe it I'm like yeah like who the fuck am I you know why but everybody it was crazy have we met me and you I actually met I always felt like I was like I represented something chaotic that you needed to avoid oh
Guest:That's probably true.
Guest:But where would we have bumped into each other?
Marc:Catch?
Marc:No, I was at, I mean, I was there at the cellar the entire time you were shooting that documentary.
Guest:Ah, but you were just starting.
Marc:Not really.
Guest:I mean, I started in... You started in 89, but though you were 10 years, still kind of started.
Marc:88.
Marc:I started in 88 and I started doing, I moved to New York in 89 and, you know, I was working in Boston doing one-nighters.
Marc:But yeah, I was definitely around...
Guest:I never got in at the cellar either, by the way.
Guest:I didn't fit in there.
Marc:She didn't pass me until she saw my HBO half hour in 95.
Marc:95.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:But so I was working at the cellar by the time you were there.
Marc:And I don't think we ever met.
Marc:Like, I knew Colin.
Marc:I knew all those guys.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I know Joyner.
Marc:I know, you know, I know everybody that was around you.
Marc:But by the time...
Marc:you know i was around you were kind of out right well it's nice to finally meet them yeah it's nice to meet you too because i had always assumed like uh because i i you know i know papa i know all those guys yeah you know and i remember when i was earlier doing when we started the podcast i i remember i was talking to papa in uh i don't know where we were working we were both working somewhere in different rooms and
Marc:And I'm like, see if Jerry wants to do it.
Marc:But you weren't really doing anything.
Marc:You were like, why?
Marc:I think that's what he said.
Marc:I said, did you ask Jerry?
Marc:He goes, yeah, I did.
Marc:He goes, well, what'd he say?
Marc:He said, why?
Marc:I appreciated the honesty of that.
Marc:But yeah, so that's why we never met, because you were on another level and not really around much.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:But when you think about that, like all those guys, because I don't know really how to...
Marc:There's reasons why people don't make it.
Marc:And there's definitely many reasons.
Marc:Some of them are personal and some of them are just, you know, it's not a meritocracy.
Marc:Some of it's just timing.
Marc:Some of it's some people look better than others.
Marc:Who the hell knows?
Marc:But you sort of have to balance the heartbreak of all that when you have all these people that you know that are your friends that struggle forever.
Marc:And I guess that's – what do you attribute that – like when you look at your own success –
Marc:Do you think it was inevitable or do you think that there was just work or do you think, you know what I mean?
Guest:Well, I was lucky.
Guest:I'll tell you like the seminal events, the most seminal event of my career to go back to what we were just talking about.
Guest:Let's go back to Catch a Rising Star in 1976.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'd see a guy get on The Tonight Show.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And he had about 35 minutes.
Guest:Total.
Guest:You know, the Tonight Show, which, you know, 35 minutes.
Guest:That's one strong six minutes clean on the Tonight Show.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That distills down to six.
Guest:And then he goes on, does well, goes on again.
Guest:Not as good.
Guest:Goes on a third time, struggles, never see him again.
Marc:That was something you noticed.
Guest:I noticed that as a young man.
Guest:I went, oh, now I see how this works.
Guest:What you think you have is not what you really have.
Guest:When they put you under that light, in that context, under those constraints,
Guest:So I realized I have to have a way of growing that's more than just hanging out, bullshitting with other comics.
Guest:I need a better system than that.
Guest:And so I set about creating that for myself.
Guest:And believe it or not, I got it from George Burns.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Fred Raker gave me George Burns' first book, which was called Living It Up or They Still Love Me in Altoona.
Guest:And I read about him starting in vaudeville and his struggles and his love of the business.
Guest:But I read about that he sat and worked every day for at least two hours.
Guest:On jokes.
Guest:On jokes.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And which I had never heard of or done.
Marc:And you didn't know anybody who was doing that.
Guest:Didn't know anybody that did that.
Marc:But everybody had a notebook.
Marc:No.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had no books, but nobody sat down and said, you know, I want to do something on.
Guest:uh you know right dogs right you mean like some they'd sit there and they'd get a thing and they like all of us you write it down like oh that's a good idea but you would sit down and be like all right here's a bunch of things yeah i'm gonna write on let's really explore this on a piece of paper and then explore it on stage let's do both everybody was just kind of doing it on stage
Guest:And I think to this day, most people do.
Guest:They just kind of, they catch a hold of an idea.
Guest:They take it on stage.
Guest:And that works for a lot of people.
Marc:I do it that way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It wasn't enough for me.
Guest:It wasn't.
Guest:You needed more precision.
Guest:I wanted to go deeper down the hole.
Guest:And I wanted to take my time doing it and then take it on stage and then go back and explore.
Guest:You know, it was the back and forth, the stage and the pad and the stage and the pad.
Guest:And then I found I was coming up with a lot of stuff.
Guest:And then I started progressing and going past people.
Guest:And I thought, oh, this is this is my way.
Marc:So that first seminal moment was realizing that you had to do that.
Guest:Well, I thought if I'm going to get on The Tonight Show three times a year and crush every one of them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This has got to be a bit of a serious endeavor because I loved it so much.
Guest:And all I wanted was I didn't want to get kicked out.
Guest:I've seen so many people get kicked out.
Marc:Of The Tonight Show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You get on, you do a couple of shots and they don't want you anymore.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So I didn't want to be in one of those casualties.
Marc:So you were like Brenner was more of the way to go.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Right.
Marc:The guys that were there.
Guest:Although he would always say, I used to see him at Catch All the Time, and he would stand on stage, and he would have notes on stage, and he would bang around on stage.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But most guys, so anyway, if you go from that moment to when Larry, David, and I got the TV series, and you roll a blank sheet of paper into a typewriter, I was not intimidated by that, because I've been looking at blank sheets of paper
Guest:for years at that time.
Marc:You knew how to write the bits.
Guest:I knew how to write, yeah.
Guest:When Jerry and George sit down together at the coffee shop, Larry and I, neither one of us was intimidated by that.
Guest:Nowadays, a comic gets a shot for a network show and they go, well, we have TV writers that will take your humor and put it in TV form.
Guest:Well, you're finished right there.
Marc:You're done.
Marc:You're done.
Marc:I've been that guy a few times.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And I know, and we both could rattle off a list of names.
Guest:You got to realize you're the best writer in the room.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Eventually that worked out.
Marc:You know, I had a series on IFC, but nonetheless, I got that out of my system.
Guest:Why did you stay with that?
Marc:I did four seasons.
Marc:Oh, that's a lot.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And the incentive becomes when there's no real money and it's hard to get people to watch and the network support is limited.
Marc:You know, it's sort of it gets to a point where it's like if you can't put more money into the show as the show goes on, you know, it wasn't even about money for myself.
Marc:It was really like, what are we doing here?
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Wow.
Guest:It's like I had a similar experience.
Marc:Oh, the one in New York for TV land?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:It's like, you know, you were in the heyday.
Marc:You sort of defined that thing.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:And that sort of established the grail that all of us were going after, sort of being the center of a sitcom.
Marc:But, like, I think what you and Ray and a few other people, I mean, that was it for that.
Marc:Yeah, that was it.
Marc:I think my first deal was with your guys at Castle Rock.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:With Glenn.
Guest:Glenn Padnick?
Marc:And I, you know, yeah, it was one of those deals where, yeah, I got set up with a writer and I don't even, didn't go anywhere.
Marc:It was a million years ago.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But, you know, Padnick was funny because it's like, you know, yeah, we did, like, by the time he did your show, he didn't give a fuck.
Marc:You know, like, he's like, what does he care?
Marc:It's like, you know, sure, we'll make you whatever you want.
Marc:You know, he made a fortune.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Yeah, I wonder if today, yeah, today I would never even do a TV series if I was a young guy today.
Guest:You just work stand-up.
Guest:And I don't even know what my style would be.
Guest:I probably, I don't know if I would be cursing on stage if I started today.
Marc:cursing swearing yeah i mean yeah you don't do it at all really a little bit but that was a that was a choice right you're like i'm not gonna well yeah and then it became a style that i liked because it was so much more difficult but you did curse for a minute yes in the very beginning yes oh and then it went away even then it bothered me and
Guest:Because I felt like, well, I just got to laugh because I said, fuck in there.
Guest:That's the only reason they laughed at that.
Marc:That was a problem.
Marc:You felt like you were cheating.
Guest:Uh, yeah.
Guest:Well, it's just that you didn't, you didn't find it.
Guest:You didn't find the gold.
Marc:I get it, man.
Marc:So, but when you started before you do these long form pieces where you, I mean, did you just, did you do one liners?
Marc:Was there a building process?
Marc:I mean, I know all your bits kind of have jokes all the way through them, but I mean, at the beginning, before you went digging to learn how to be funny, you must've just done little jokes.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, I always started off, like when I started talking about cereal, I'm going to talk about everything with cereal.
Guest:I'm going to talk about the proof of purchase seal.
Marc:I think you're still talking about cereal.
Marc:I'm still talking about it, yeah.
Marc:I think we're talking about Pop-Tarts now.
Marc:You're 65.
Marc:We got the Pop-Tarts.
Guest:Yeah, I think the horse has been the steadiest thing in my comedy diet.
Guest:For some reason, horses constantly pop up.
Guest:in my act.
Guest:I love the comedy of the horse.
Marc:Oh, the right, your closer, the new closer with the stall.
Guest:Yeah, it's in there too, yeah.
Guest:There's a horse.
Marc:Yeah, even the horses stick their head over the... Yeah, there's horse, there's, I think there's, a lot of times there's a bit of a poop reference at the end of some of the bigger... Yes, yes.
Marc:But no cursing?
Guest:No, no.
Marc:All right, so Larry, he won't talk to me.
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:I see him sometimes.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:He's nice to me, but he won't talk to me.
Guest:That's weird.
Guest:I wonder why.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I think it's really more about people, like you said, like, do I have to?
Marc:Is it necessary?
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:But when you met him, so you guys, you were always friends?
Marc:Because I remember early on.
Guest:In comedy, yes, yes.
Guest:He was a few years ahead of me, a couple years maybe.
Guest:And and we would anytime we bump into each other from the first word out of our mouth, it was a hilarious, inane conversation.
Guest:And so when I got this offer from NBC, if you wasn't even an offer, they were just like, if you ever have any ideas.
Guest:Right.
Right.
Guest:You know, we'd be interested in hearing them.
Guest:And I loved the way Larry and I talked.
Guest:I said, I want to show that sounds like the way Larry and I talk.
Marc:And that was it.
Marc:And that was it.
Marc:But when you before you got the show, had you been to you were touring.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So back then it was you open for musical acts.
Marc:What did you do?
Guest:Yeah, a lot of that.
Guest:I mean, comedy clubs were this is, you know, the mid 80s was I rode the comedy boom.
Guest:I was the comedy boom.
Guest:I was the that opened the club, whether Cleveland or.
Marc:So that's right.
Marc:You're like, you know, a defining product of that.
Guest:Because I had The Tonight Show and Letterman.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I think I was the only guy doing both shows regularly.
Marc:And you had an hour.
Guest:I had an hour.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And how long do you like ride that first hour?
Guest:I mean, the act never stops.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Right.
Guest:It's a it's a combine.
Guest:It's a threshing machine.
Guest:It's just.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You're just consuming grain.
Guest:Keep going.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And like in terms of like the competitiveness of it.
Marc:I mean, was there.
Marc:Were you fueled by any sort of like resentment or anger at the comics who didn't work as hard as you?
Guest:Towards Mitzi Shore and towards getting fired off of Benson in 81.
Guest:Or maybe it was 80.
Guest:So Mitzi, when was the Mitzi?
Guest:Mitzi Shore was a great motivator of mine.
Guest:She disliked me instantly.
Guest:Because I was very independent and that is not the comedy store model.
Guest:What year is this?
Guest:This is 1980.
Guest:You need to be a wounded broken winged bird or you're not funny.
Guest:And you're not her kind of person because I don't want anybody molding me.
Guest:I don't want anybody telling me what to do.
Guest:If you're not a comic, you're not telling me what to do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or suggesting, you know.
Guest:And so we immediately disliked each other.
Guest:She was very outspoken about it to my face.
Guest:And it's funny because what she said to me, she said, you know, you're the kind of person that needs someone to step on you and I'm going to be that person.
Guest:And I have to admit, she was right.
Guest:I needed that person.
Guest:She was that person.
Guest:And it really fueled me.
Marc:It worked.
Guest:I never talked to her again.
Guest:I would never, and to this day, I feel no competition with any other comedians.
Guest:I love, I adore comedians.
Marc:my colleagues and i love it but what but let's i mean that's interesting to me though because you know i was a doorman at the store in the late 80s and you know i kind of bought into that trip a bit you know and it kind of formed me though i was fucked up on drugs so like i i don't know you know the place fucked with my head a bit but right
Marc:But the idea that you had to be a wounded, broken bird.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You said.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Where does that perception come from?
Guest:Where did you how did you look at all the people that she loved?
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:I know.
Marc:But you were also saying that I don't fit that pattern.
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:But you but but you love those people.
Marc:Yes, I did.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you didn't feel like it was necessary.
Marc:Right.
Marc:To be that, you weren't that.
Guest:You can't be other than what you are.
Guest:No, that's true.
Marc:You can only be what you are.
Marc:But you disagreed with that idea that, you know, you didn't have to be wounded.
Marc:You didn't have to be broken to be funny.
Guest:No, of course not.
Guest:Funny has nothing to do with anything.
Guest:You know that, Mark.
Guest:It has nothing to do with anything.
Yeah.
Guest:I think it's not about a type, you know.
Marc:Right.
Marc:No, I agree.
Marc:I agree.
Guest:But it's like dandelion sports.
Guest:It's just sprinkled out there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But but it does serve a purpose.
Marc:I mean, people who are who are, you know, the reason you're funny is that, you know, it's part of your ability to deflect and to charm.
Guest:I'm going to stop you at the reason.
Guest:There's no reason.
Marc:No.
Guest:You're funny if you're funny.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you love to be funny if you're funny and you love to be funny.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:There you go.
Marc:So.
Marc:OK.
Marc:But so you never you never question the psychology of funny.
Guest:No.
Guest:I reject that entire premise.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Look at my face.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You see that I totally reject that?
Guest:You're funny if you're funny, period.
Marc:So there's no why?
Guest:No.
Guest:And if there is, who cares?
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So then set that aside.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:And, you know, you have this, okay, that's your ethic around humor and, you know, finding the joke and drilling down and making the perfect joke.
Marc:Because I was trying to figure something out about my feelings about you as a comic and whatnot.
Marc:And I understand all that, you know, but for you...
Marc:And this goes along with it, that the only risk that you run on stage or the risk that you take, the most frightening risk is that the joke won't work.
Marc:That like what you have on the line is that is that I crafted this thing.
Marc:And if it fails, I got to go back and fix it or I got to figure out why it's not funny.
Marc:That's it.
Guest:Or chuck it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So so you don't risk any of your personality or your well-being necessarily.
Marc:Or do you?
Guest:I think standing up on stage by myself and saying I'm going to make you laugh, that's a pretty good risk.
Marc:Yeah, no, but that's what I'm saying.
Guest:I think the average person would say that's a little risky.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But does it does it does it like when you don't do that?
Marc:When it doesn't work out, and I noticed a little bit in the old documentary, do you beat the shit out of yourself?
Marc:Do you go into a dark place?
Marc:Does comedy save you from the darkness, Jerry?
Guest:Yes, it does.
Guest:And it is the darkness.
Guest:Well, that's a why.
Guest:Well, if you choose to play the game publicly, then you're accepting, I'm going to take the hit.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:I get that.
Guest:And I'm going to, you know, Michael Richards used to love to tell the story, you know, that I don't know what Native American tribe...
Guest:He was that had comedians, that there were comedians in Native American culture.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And if you decided you wanted to be one of them, the first thing they would do is you had to eat a piece of caca.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he might.
Guest:That's how Michael would tell the story.
Guest:And if you could do it, they would accept you and into the group.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, I think that's ultimately, you know, my relationship with your comedy has been difficult for me because, you know, I come from a school where, you know, I improvise and I create bits on stage.
Marc:I do most of my writing in the moment.
Marc:I've done five or six, you know, I mean, I've done many hours.
Marc:But like, ultimately, there came a point because of you.
Marc:The last three specials I've done, the last two for Netflix and one for Epics,
Marc:You know, I decided I'm like, all right, well, fuck it.
Marc:I'll do the work and I'll structure this thing.
Marc:I'm going to make sure all these jokes are refined to the point where they work perfectly.
Marc:I know exactly what's happening.
Marc:There are callbacks within it.
Marc:And I'm going to see how that feels.
Marc:As opposed to just be like, hey, man, let's see what which one's going to drop in to the slot right now.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And I got to admit, it was it was rewarding.
Marc:And I'll thank you for that.
Guest:Oh, OK.
Guest:Well, I think you might find that laughs feel good.
Guest:You might like that.
Marc:I like the laughs, but the thing is that I noticed too with you is that I do like the laughs, but there are moments in a bit that are funny and they might not be the biggest laugh moment, but they're your favorite moment.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And there's these little pieces that don't quite get the laugh that you wanted, but it's your favorite little moment.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, that's fine.
Guest:But I'm very anti-indulgence of my own.
Guest:My job is to serve them, to make them really laugh, because that, I think, is the only relevant currency in the end.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Just a laugh?
Marc:Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Guest:you know now if if there's something in there deeper than the lap that you get which there is in any great joke sure when rodney tells does the bit uh um
Guest:I'm making love with my wife, but she has a faraway look in her eyes.
Guest:And I say, darling, is there someone else?
Guest:And she says, there must be.
Guest:I mean, that's as rich as it gets for me, you know.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:I always look for meaning in jokes.
Marc:I mean, that's that's the reason I got into comedy is that comedy comedians.
Marc:We're able to sort of, you know, you know, make things manageable, make things understandable.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, big ideas that were threatening.
Marc:I mean, you know, to me, they were powerful people to, you know, things are terrifying.
Marc:Life is difficult.
Marc:These guys put it into little packages and, you know, it makes it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I never put anything above the left.
Guest:Self-revelation, opinion, insight, all these things.
Guest:I would never.
Guest:Give those the same weight them the same as the laugh.
Marc:But but occasionally they'll intertwine.
Guest:And if they want to, I don't worry about that part.
Guest:You don't get the laugh.
Guest:If I like the bit and it gets a laugh, I'm doing the bit.
Marc:OK, well, so this is the obsessive work of you, of Jerry Seinfeld doing the work.
Marc:But where do you you know what?
Marc:What is your sense?
Marc:Like if you didn't do comedy, would you be a dark, miserable person?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I wouldn't be as happy because I wouldn't have as much fun.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I really wanted to have a life of fun.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I thought comedy seemed like the most fun life I could imagine.
Marc:But are you a spiritual guy?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So you nurture that part of your life as well?
Guest:Oh, yes.
Guest:Oh, very much so, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Not in any conventional terms.
Guest:No, I get it.
Marc:But what what what what what what?
Marc:Because, like, I have a hard time wrapping around.
Marc:How do you define that?
Marc:So if you have a full spiritual life that, you know, you you're comfortable in your heart, that that enables you to not seek that that type of of satisfaction from comedy, you know, what what do you do?
Guest:Well, comedy is very spiritually satisfying.
Guest:You're risking your own personal comfort to make total strangers happy, make them feel good for just a moment.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's a spiritual act.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:And what else do you do?
Guest:I try and be good to people all the time with strangers when I'm driving.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I try and...
Guest:I'm always trying to be generous to people.
Marc:And do you have a practice of any kind?
Marc:No.
Marc:No religion, no thing that you do?
Guest:I mean, I'm Jewish, and we celebrate some of the big ones, you know.
Marc:Why does everyone say that you were a Scientologist once?
Guest:I did do a course in Scientology in like 75.
Guest:Out here?
Guest:No, in New York.
Guest:Found it very interesting.
Guest:Never pursued it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Was there anything in it that changed your brain?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:emphasis on ethical behavior.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which I still, which I liked the emphasis on that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was a big thing, I would say, ethical behavior.
Marc:And did any of this sort of avoiding negative people trip?
Marc:Did that?
Marc:No, no, no.
Marc:No.
Marc:So this special, I was surprised how you had the full orchestra, didn't use them a lot.
Guest:It was really just for the opening.
Marc:I know.
Marc:So all of a sudden there's like a full orchestra, four seconds, boom, you're out.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:But did you like, was that sort of a...
Marc:Like because there's this weird thing that you straddle this kind of new stand up with the old style.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you wanted to sort of incorporate.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I wanted to acknowledge that this was what I thought show business was.
Marc:Right.
Guest:This is what I want it to be.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I want it to be a little formal.
Right.
Guest:um a little exciting you know you know i just i just like that you know this is when i fell this was what i fell in love with as a kid that that's what that's about was that the first time you used the orchestra yes yes and that so that was sort of like a a kind of a an homage
Guest:Well, I don't know if I'm going to do that kind of thing again.
Guest:It was just something I wanted to lay it down.
Guest:You have this set and you really like where it's at.
Guest:And I'm not arrogant enough to think I'm going to be around forever.
Guest:So I thought, let me lay this down so that it's there.
Marc:What do you mean this?
Marc:You don't think you're going to do another special?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't do another one unless I thought I could do a better one.
Guest:And by that time, I'll be in my 70s.
Guest:And I don't know.
Marc:But I might.
Marc:Who knows?
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you're never going to stop doing stand-up.
Guest:Oh, no, never.
Marc:So isn't that the interesting thing, though, that because of the job we've chosen and the role models we've had, that we've all watched these guys that we love do it into their 90s if they want to.
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:You talk about Rickles.
Marc:You love Rickles?
Marc:Love Rickles.
Marc:You?
Marc:Yeah, of course.
Marc:He had a profound impact on me.
Marc:Because I read something you said about... I'm just trying to figure out why... Because I feel like...
Marc:I don't feel like I'm hiding much on stage, you know, to, you know, for better or for worse.
Marc:And I feel like, you know, I really put myself out there in terms of my personality and who I am.
Marc:And that's part of what I do.
Marc:You know, I don't you know, I don't I'm not hiding much behind jokes.
Marc:And then I read somewhere that you said about like when people ask you about that kind of thing, like about those kind of, you know, showing yourself or, or, or, you know, exploring those parts of yourself that are personal that you don't see that's necessary because, you know, you look at guys like Rickles, they didn't do it and they're funny.
Marc:Right.
Guest:There's nothing harder than getting a laugh.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:There are other things you can do on stage, but that's the hardest thing.
Guest:So if you want to do the hardest thing, that's it.
Guest:Have you said that before?
Guest:No.
Guest:And I totally accept and approve of people doing whatever the hell you want.
Marc:I get it.
Guest:Comedy is when you go to the music store and you buy a guitar, the guy at the cash treasure doesn't tell you what to do with it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You do whatever you want with it.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:So that's what I think about comedy.
Guest:Do whatever you want with it.
Guest:So if that's what you like to do, I'm for that.
Guest:But I like to do the other thing.
Guest:That's what I like to do.
Marc:The funny thing.
Guest:I like the laugh.
Guest:I like to hear it.
Guest:I think we all.
Marc:Do you know any comics?
Guest:I want to hear that laugh.
Guest:I can't.
Guest:I love it.
Marc:Do you know a lot of comics that don't like the laugh?
Guest:No, I don't know any comics that don't like the laugh, but there are comics that will tell you, and I'm sure you're one of them, that there are other interesting things that you can do.
Guest:And that's who we're going to part ways.
Marc:I think the laugh is very important, but I don't mind a laugh that could be crying.
Marc:There's a fine line between that laugh of like, oh, God, I don't mind that laugh.
Marc:It's a different type of laugh.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:As long as there's a laugh.
Guest:I don't care what we're going to know.
Guest:As long as there's a laugh.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So.
Guest:You knew this was going to happen, right?
Guest:When we talked.
Marc:Kind of.
Marc:Well, I mean, but so you do.
Marc:But you do have a sense of who I am.
Guest:I think so.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:From Tom Papa.
Guest:He's told me about you.
Marc:Tom and I get along.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But OK.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I and I understand.
Guest:You know, obviously, this is a part of comedy today.
Guest:People I think young people very much expect comedians to tell me what makes you tick.
Guest:You know, I guess.
Marc:I mean, I definitely like the laugh and I do get good laughs and and I've always and I get more laughs now than I used to.
Marc:And I think there was a growing up process around that.
Marc:I think that there was a time where, you know, even even in that that album that you have right next to your head right now.
Marc:I mean, when you look at Lenny Bruce, who, you know, you put into context of a time that he lived in.
Marc:I mean, there was some other intention there a lot of times.
Marc:The intention was to get a laugh, but sometimes it took a while to get there.
Marc:You have to sort of decide how you're going to do that.
Marc:And like you said, as a comic, go ahead, do whatever the fuck you want.
Marc:And people do, and it takes a long time to figure out how you're going to own that space.
Marc:But ultimately, I do believe what you're saying is true, that you should get the laugh as quickly as possible and as often as possible.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:I mean, I'm not I'm not arguing with you on that.
Marc:I just think it was interesting to me that when you talk about Don Rickles, you know, I can clearly see, you know, watching Rickles, you know, whether he's just doing jokes or however good his timing is or whatever, that, you know, there are moments there where I'm like, this is a man filled with rage.
Guest:I do think we could come up with a number of different words that are in and around rage.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But an essential element to be sure in comedy.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:It is essential.
Yes.
Guest:Aggression, confrontation, resentment, irritation.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:They're varietals like wines.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:You just have to make sure that you're- But you can't not have it.
Guest:If you don't have it, I don't think you're going to get laughs.
Marc:If you don't have the... If you don't have that element.
Marc:If you're not on the anger spectrum.
Guest:Somewhere.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Many words.
Guest:We can apply many words.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:No, I like it.
Guest:To the substance, but it's an essential ingredient.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:And I have it too.
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:I feel it.
Guest:See, that's funny.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Marc:I was just trying to get at it.
Marc:I took an hour.
Guest:But I think the greatest use of it is to process it through a laugh machine.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:I just I think like there are moments that I've seen that like watching that thing.
Marc:It was very touching to me.
Marc:The old comedian doc and also watching, you know, your episode of comedians and cars with Gary Shanling to me like like that.
Marc:Those two times, you know, in both in very quick interactions, I feel were the only times I really saw who who you were in a way.
Marc:is when you interacted with him.
Marc:Because, you know, it's really touching to me because...
Marc:there was something about him where he, he could really see you, you know, and, and you don't have that with a lot of people.
Marc:Correct.
Marc:Correct.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And there was just a couple of moments there where it was like, like he's like, he was one of the guys where I, I'm sorry, I'm choked up, but, um,
Marc:Like he made you laugh in that way that was deeper than just a laugh.
Marc:You know, like I could see.
Marc:Well, I just loved him.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:See, I think I'm attracted to the love underneath.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Like with Rickles, guys that love Rickles, nobody says they like Rickles, right?
Guest:Nobody.
Guest:Right.
Guest:They love him.
Yeah.
Guest:They love him.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:And Rodney too, you know, who I was friends with, but people love Rodney.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Now, if Rodney came out and really told us what was going on...
Guest:You know, it's a different thing.
Marc:It would be terrible.
Marc:It would be terrible.
Marc:Yeah, Richard Lewis used to say he called it the heaviness, the depression.
Guest:Yes, the heaviness.
Guest:You know, Rodney said as a joke, I'm all right now, but last week I was in rough shape.
Guest:He was in rough shape.
Guest:He doesn't need to go any deeper than that.
Marc:I agree.
Marc:I, and I, and I think, I do think, I think that's the key right there is that, you know, I think that we kind of landed on it with the spectrum of anger or this, the spectrum of anger and also the spectrum of sadness, that there is something about, you know, the heart underneath a comic that whatever it is, you know, he has to be funny.
Marc:And, and, you know, and if he wasn't funny, who knows what we'd get, you know?
Guest:Well,
Guest:That's the beauty of it, really.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:You take that risk.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:By yourself.
Guest:By yourself.
Guest:I know.
Marc:It's the best.
Guest:You did your show.
Guest:I did my show.
Guest:It's one thing when you're with other people up there, but when you're by yourself, that's a different thing.
Marc:It's it's like it took me years to sort of like, you know, that moment where for me, like the greatest thing about about doing stand up sometimes is just that when you're sitting there waiting to go on or when you walk down the hallway of the theater or when you walk past the kitchen, you know, like this is show business.
Marc:You know, I'm I'm walking through past through this kitchen, you know, this shitty dressing room.
Marc:But that moment where you realize and I don't know when you first realized it, that part of you lives up there.
Marc:Like, you know, when you get on stage, whatever you're afraid of early on or whatever your challenges are, you know, once you got your act together, that you can't wait to get out there because that's where you live.
Marc:You know, that's your place.
Marc:And that's an amazing moment to feel that.
Marc:Did you always have that or do you have it now?
Marc:Do you know what I'm talking about?
Guest:That that's my place?
Marc:Well, just like part of you lives up there.
Marc:That's the most comfortable you're going to be.
Guest:No.
Guest:No?
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, sometimes my manager and I will always have these moments where he'll talk about how great the set was.
Guest:And he says, did you realize?
Guest:And I go, no, I'm busy.
Marc:Really?
Marc:But you know you're getting laughed, so you realize it.
Guest:Yes, but I'm not thinking about it.
Marc:I'm just trying to make them bigger.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:You know, better.
Marc:No joy up there?
Guest:Little moments.
Guest:Little moments.
Guest:It's kind of like, I always say it's like, if you talk to a guy that flies an F-16 and you ask him, you know, what do the clouds look like?
Guest:It's like, I'm busy, you know?
Guest:I'm not really looking at the clouds.
Guest:I appreciate that they're beautiful, but I'm busy.
Guest:But you're busy.
Guest:That's my attitude on stage.
Guest:I got to do this a certain way.
Guest:I want this to come out a certain way.
Marc:And when it does, it feels good.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Good.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:I'm happy.
Guest:It feels not bad.
Guest:I don't want to feel bad when I come off.
Guest:And I do a lot, you know, you feel bad.
Guest:I don't feel I feel that's that's not the show I wanted tonight to be not good enough.
Marc:Well, I think that's another thing I might have learned from you or for somebody just that that that feeling or that the reality of not doing well is part of the job.
Marc:And it might not necessarily have that.
Marc:You know, I'm not I don't I don't really subscribe to the idea that there are no bad audiences.
Marc:There are bad audiences.
Guest:Yeah, but it doesn't matter.
Marc:But it's just part of the job.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, your job is to take them from wherever they are to a slightly better place.
Marc:Slightly.
Guest:If you can.
Marc:All right, man.
Marc:Well, it's great talking to you.
Guest:Great talking to you.
Guest:I really love the show.
Guest:You do an amazing job.
Guest:And I'd love to come back anytime.
Guest:I think we could do a lot of this.
Guest:Yeah, I think I'd love to talk about, you know, I'm one of the guys that, you know, I love to take it apart.
Marc:Yeah, but there's a line you won't go past.
Marc:You definitely have pretty strong opinions about certain things.
Guest:Yes, I have strong opinions about everything.
Marc:Right, so we can take it apart, but only to a certain degree because you'll stop once it's apart, right?
Guest:You want to take the parts apart?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:I thought we were going to go deep.
Marc:Go ahead.
Guest:What do you got?
Guest:Ask me a tough question.
Marc:There's no tough questions.
Marc:I think the one thing that I think is interesting, but I think we kind of worked around it, was just that, you know, the idea that if you're funny, you're just funny and that's it.
Marc:That it doesn't run deeper than that.
Marc:But I think the more we talk about it, that if you're funny, you can't be funny without a certain amount of something on the anger spectrum or something on, you know, the spectrum of... Oh, sure, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But all of those things are minor.
Guest:They're minors.
Guest:The major is...
Guest:The ball coming off the bat is the ball coming off the bat.
Guest:Yeah, that's what I care about.
Guest:That's what I live for.
Guest:That's what I think is the gift.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, how do you decide, do you, you challenge yourself to, you know, kind of take all these things apart and to really get into these, the minutia of stuff and, and write the shit out of stuff.
Marc:But you know, how do you know, how do you decide what you, what isn't funny?
Marc:What, when, when do you, I mean, outside of just saying like, I can't make that funny.
Marc:Are there things that you don't even want to try to make funny?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because they're easy or I've seen things like that or it's, that's not challenging or it's not original enough.
Guest:It's not, uh, um,
Guest:You want to dig out something that nobody really saw.
Marc:But you do that with stuff that's... You don't do that with, like, death.
Marc:You don't do that with, like, heartbreak.
Guest:I do.
Guest:I do have some stuff like that.
Guest:That, you know, when you're born, it's...
Guest:Two people walk in, three come out.
Marc:It's a different number of people.
Guest:You're going back to the same room.
Guest:That's a death joke, but it gets a solid laugh, so I'm allowed to do it.
Guest:It's got to pay its way.
Marc:That was heavy.
Marc:I like that one, actually.
Marc:That there's a different number of people.
Guest:That's fun for me.
Guest:I'm going to talk about death.
Guest:But, you know, and that was challenging to get a laugh big enough for me to keep that in.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, where do you work out the sets now?
Marc:I thought that was interesting.
Guest:I love Gotham on 23rd.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Chris's place.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you'll just do what, you know, a week or a residency once, twice a week.
Guest:I just drive by and go in.
Marc:But when you're building an hour, you don't- I don't build hours.
Marc:No more?
Marc:No.
Marc:You just put it together later.
Marc:You're like, oh, okay, I got enough.
Guest:No, it's constant.
Marc:No, no, I get it.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:But if you got to do a big room where you got to do an hour, you got to have an hour-
Guest:That's all I do.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But I'm saying when you're putting it together, you do it in smaller chunks is what I'm trying to establish.
Marc:No, never.
Guest:I never I never don't have it.
Guest:See, I come from the the 70s when you have an act.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, I know.
Marc:I get there's an ever evolving act.
Marc:I've done six or seven hours, but I'm just saying that you got to work out somewhere.
Marc:You're not going to, you know, you don't work out new material, you know, for the first time at the, you know, in Atlantic City or whatever.
Marc:No, I do not.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You do that at Gotham.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:In like 15, 20 minute chunks.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Got it.
Marc:That's all.
Marc:I'm not fighting with you.
Marc:I'm glad we talked.
Marc:It makes me feel better.
Guest:Good.
Guest:Best of luck to you.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:I hope you're okay.
Marc:I'm okay.
Marc:I feel like you're going to be okay.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:I think we'll all be okay.
Marc:I hope so.
Marc:Next time we see each other, we know each other now.
Guest:Yeah, that'll be nice.
Marc:Okay, buddy.
Marc:Thanks, man.
Marc:Okay, that was me and Jerry.
Marc:That's how it went.
Marc:That's how we are.
Marc:And folks.
Marc:The virus is still out there.
Marc:Wear your fucking masks.
Marc:Don't be a dumb-dumb.
Marc:Just look at the numbers.
Marc:Use common sense.
Marc:Just because other people aren't doesn't mean that... I know it's uncomfortable, but really, really, what is this, fucking high school?
Marc:Wear your fucking mask.
Marc:All right, let's play a little guitar.
Marc:Pulling out the Strat.
.
.
Marc:Boomer lives.